No. 1 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Monday, August 5, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS 1. Procedure of Cross-examination 2. Oath-taking by the Witness of the Qadiani Group 3. Method of Recording the Cross examination Pages 2-3 3 3-4 Contd. PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD. 4. 5. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation. Supply of Copies of the Cross-examination Supplementary Questions for Cross-examination 7. Connection of Record of the Cross-examination 6. 8. 9. 10. Timings of Sitting for the Cross-examination. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation. Evasive Answers to Questions in the Cross-examination Pages 4-52 53-54 54-55 55-56 56 57-113 113-116 II. 12. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation-(Continued) Availability of Books etc. for Quotations and Cross-examination 116-196 13. Disturbance during the Cross-examination 14. Method of conducting the Cross-examination 197-200 200-201 201-203 15. Conduct of the Witness during the Cross-examination. 203-206 No. 1 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Monday, the 5th August, 1974 Contains No. 1-21 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Monday, August 5, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at ten o'clock in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. (RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN) رم 2 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 PROCEDURE OF CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Chairman: Yes, call them. Let them come to the House. Let's discuss it here. No, not yet. Call the delegation downstairs. And again I will request the honourable members that in the presence of the delegation and in the presence of the witnesses, no controversial issues should be raised. The Attorney-General may be allowed to put the questions, and if any honourable member is not satisfied with the question or he thinks that the answer is evasive, he can send a chit to me or to the Attorney-General; and if something of a very important nature comes to the notice of any honourable member, he can make a request and we can adjourn the House for five or ten minutes. We can ask the witness to wait outside and we can discuss the matter among ourselves. Yes. Mr. Muhammad Hanif Khan: What is the procedure if a new question comes to someone's mind on the spot? Mr. Chairman: Regarding that... Mr. Muhammad Hanif Khan: Should we write it down for the Attorney General? Mr. Chairman: You can note it down and give it to the Attorney General. And after that, the Attorney General had also said in the Steering Committee the day before yesterday that as a lawyer, whatever difficulties there are, whatever method there is, every lawyer has their own method of putting the questions and getting the answers, so he says that for two hours or for one day, let him be allowed to have a free hand in cross-examination and if the honourable members feel that something is missing or lacking, they can guide him and instruct him. Mr. Attorney-General, have you anything to say? METHOD OF RECORDING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION 3 Have you anything to add? Should we call the witness? One thing also, I will request that during the cross-examination the quorum may be kept 10 from this side and 30 from that side. The honorable members can come and go but the quorum may be kept intact. Yes, call them. I will request the honorable members to be in their seats. Can come nearer, to the un-occupied seats according to their choice. If they want to sit where they are, it is up to them. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) OATH-TAKING BY WITNESS OF THE QADIANI GROUP Mr. Chairman: Now we will start with the proceedings. I will request the witness to take the oath. Mirza Nasir Ahmad (Witness, Head of Jamaat Ahmadiyya Rabwah): I, knowing God Almighty to be present and watching, will speak the truth with honesty. METHOD OF RECORDING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. For the Reporters, for every question and answer there should be a separate sheet. Yes. Rana Muhammad Hanif Khan: The proceedings are going to be lengthy. I think if the Attorney-General can keep on sitting, that will be much better. Mr. Chairman: It is up to him. Rana Muhammad Hanif Khan: He might face some difficulty. 4 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: It is up to him. It is up to the Attorney- General, because we allowed the witness even to make a statement while sitting. Rana Muhammad Hanif Khan: That is why. It is up to him. Mr. Chairman: It is up to him. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): Mirza Sahib, I would be asking you certain questions, but if you find that you don't want to answer any question or you cannot answer any question Mr. Chairman: The mike Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I repeat ........ Mr. Chairman: The mike is all right, but the Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you Chairman: No, the Honorable Attorney General is tall. A member: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it's all right. Mr. Chairman: The member can use the ear phone. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will be asking you certain questions. If you find that you cannot answer these questions or any one of them or you do not want to answer that question. You are not bound to do so. But you will appreciate that the Special Committee will draw such inference as it considers CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 5 appropriate from your refusal to answer any particular question. That inference may be favorable to your cause or may be adverse. If you are not in a position to answer any question straightaway, you may ask the Committee for time; and if it so considers, it will give you time to answer the question. Now, Sir, will you tell us who was the founder of the Ahmedia Movement? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you please give us the brief account of his life? When I say brief account of his life, I mean when he was born, where he was born, what was his education, the family background and the date of his death and place of his death? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding this, I would request that I be given time. I will present it to you in writing tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. You are Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's grandson? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: His son's son? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: His son's son. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you please give us some brief account of your life, your education, your date of birth? Because the whole record is being prepared, that's why I am asking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have heard that I was born on November 4, 1909? And . 6 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug., 1974 Mian Gul Aurangzeb: Sir! The voice is not coming. Mr. Chairman: Increase the volume a little. Not too much that there is noise. Is it all right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My date of birth is November 16, 1909. I think there is a difference of a few days in the matriculation record. That is, my actual date of birth is November 16, 1909. As I have been told, after that my grandmother took me and I was raised in her lap. I did not live with my mother. And by grandmother, I mean the wife of the founder of the Ahmadiyya series. In childhood, I first memorized the Holy Quran. Then I got education in Arabic. Passed the Maulvi Fazil examination in '29. And then in '20, I passed the matriculation examination with all subjects. Then after spending four years in Government College, I passed the B.A. examination in '33 with Philosophy and Psychology. And in '34, I was admitted to Balliol College in Oxford. The first term there starts from October. And in '38, I did what is called PPE in their language, i.e. Philosophy, Politics and Economics, I did BA in these subjects there and according to their rules, after spending a few years if a person remains on roll, remains enrolled in the university, then they give an honorary degree of MA, which I had to take because the Jamaat... my life was dedicated to this work. In 1944, our college, Talim-ul-Islam College, appointed me as its principal. And from 1944 to 1965, until November 1965, I remained the Principal of Talim-ul-Islam College. First in undivided India, then there was a division, partition and Pakistan was formed and our college came here and since our entire library of the college, as most of the Jamaat's library remained there. Of Apress Science College, we had to arrange everything here from scratch. And until 1965 I was the Principal. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION served the nation as. And in 1975, in November 1965, the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya elected me as their Imam through election. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, you hold the office of the Imam of Jamaat-e-Ahmadia? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you are also the third Caliph of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you are also called Amir-ul- Momineen by your jamaat people? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they also call me that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, will you tell us the different duties that you discharge or functions that you perform or powers that you exercise in these various capacities as Imam, as Khalifa and Amir? Or is it the same function? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Same function. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In all the offices? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Different people say different things. The main thing is Khalifatul Masih III, meaning the third Caliph of the Mahdi Ma'ud. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can different persons hold these three different offices? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no. 8 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It has to be the same person. And now, Sir, this Jamaat-e-Ahmadia, is it a body different and district from Ahmadia Movement or is it some controlling organisation within the Movement? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Jamaat-e-Ahmadia, in the sense that we use it, is the group of those individuals of the Ahmadia community who pledge allegiance to the third Caliphate. There are also such Ahmadis who do not pledge allegiance to the Caliphate. Those whom we include in Jamaat-e-Ahmadia, in the sense that we use it, are not included in it, but they are Ahmadis. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You mean the people who belong to Lahore Group? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The people who belong to the Lahore Group or scattered individuals sometimes, who don't take 'baiat' but they call themselve Ahmedi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Every person who takes 'baiat' is a member of Jamaat-e-Ahmedia? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, Jamaat-e-Ahmadia, which some people also call Jamaat-e-Mubai'een. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you said, Sir, that you are elected to this office. Who elects you, who elects the Imam? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: By an electoral college. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is an electoral college. Will you please kindly tell us the composition or the number of that electoral college? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I don't know the exact number, I think it's around five hundred, approximately five hundred, and it has representation from various groups. One is the organization of the Jamaat, which is CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 9 are numbered, for example, the district leader. There is one. There are those who have spent a certain and fixed amount of time going out to preach Islam, so because of the work they have done preaching Islam, they are members of the electoral college. There are those who have spent a specific amount of time here training and reforming their lives, they are members of it. The president of Al-Majlis Ahmadia, this is our administrative organization, a registered body, so its responsible officials are its members. There is our administration, which is mostly related to the preaching of Islam outside of Pakistan. I say mostly because some parts are not included in it. So those central officials are members of this electoral college. There is another very limited organization of ours, its officials are its members. And the companions, yes, those who entered the Ahmadiyya community and the Ahmadiyya movement during the time of the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, those who are alive at this time are members of the electoral college, because of their old association, as a result of that. And by the way, I think a note about this has been published in the newspaper Al-Fazl. If you feel it is necessary, I will send it to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. Please send it. And Mirza Sahib, most of these members are nominated by somebody else or they are elected by different groups in districts or different areas? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: These who come from the districts are elected by an organisation in the district. For example, in Lyallpur, we have over a hundred communities, such a large number that they have their own presidents, and those presidents elect the district leader. So in this way they are elected, they are representing the district's community and by their association, as I said, one part is those who pledged allegiance during the time of the founder of the exalted Ahmadiyya movement, those of the old community. 10 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug. 1974 They are familiar with traditions and have made great sacrifices, they have spent their entire lives, they are elders, they are reliable, their opinion carries weight, they are, and they are not elected, they are coming through their old ways. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And is it correct that all the members of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's family are ex-officio members of this Electoral College? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I understand the question. People generally don't understand the meaning of family. This phrase is not correct. That's why I'm going to explain. I hope I will be able to make you understand. I am a very weak person. By family, you mean his three sons, their Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not their sons. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are not included in it and all three of them have passed away. Therefore, that part which refers to the family, it is no longer there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nearer excludes the further away. This is a good principle. If their sons are not alive, can their sons come then? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no one. Even if their sons are alive, they cannot come. Only those three. By family, it only means those three. No one else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. This office. Is it for life time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is for life. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And where you were elected, was there any other candidate who contested against you? Or normally the election is unanimous? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The election is unanimous........ one, two ........ normally contests the election. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION I am still contesting. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Somebody contested against? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Neither I contested, nor anyone else. This is not our way. No one can put forward their own name. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can't anyone else propose a name? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No one else can propose, not before. Two names were put forward. And those two were from our family. And when I was selected, the other one pledged allegiance at that very moment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are the rules or conventions under which the selection is held in this manner? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is our basic rule that no person will propose his own name. No person will propose another's name before the time. Won't do it at all. There will be no canvassing. Canvassing is not allowed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Sir, is there any provision in these rules or conventions for the removal of the Imam or Khalifa from his office? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. There is a basic concept of it that we believe in. Our belief is in the light of a verse of the Holy Quran, that is our belief: "He will surely grant them succession..." That the Caliph who is elected, the will of Allah Almighty is working in him. Since this material world is the world of management, therefore apparently, the members of the Electoral College are casting votes, but Allah Almighty has control over their minds and whomsoever He wills, that can happen. -12 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 And since this election, according to us, I am talking about myself, others may or may not agree with it, so since Allah Almighty's hidden will is working in it, therefore the question of removal does not arise. The One who has elected, that is His will. Whenever He wills, He gives death and man leaves this world. He can remove. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, but the Khalifa is after all a human being, according to you even if he is elected by divine intervention. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is a human being who leaves this world any moment if God so wills. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is true. But supposing he gots mentally or physically incapacitated, he can fall ill, is there any rule? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there is no rule, and we don't need it either, because in our opinion, such an event cannot happen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He cannot fall ill? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A law is made when there is a need to make it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you for clarification. The Khalifa cannot fall ill physically? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To that extent. Incapacitation of That he gets malaria or bronchitis or starts having stomach pain or a headache, that is something else. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 13 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing he gets paralyzed bodily or physically or mentally? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Bodily yes, but mentally no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He can never suffer from any mental illness? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we believe that it will not happen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He cannot have mental illness. Sir, is there any other body or organization within the Jamaat which can revise or modify or alter any order or decision of the Khalifa or Imam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Majlis-e-Shoora, and... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...Khilafat, according to our belief, consultation is necessary for Khilafat. Therefore, all the basic principles that are taken, the Khalifa of the time, in whatever era he may be, he does it within the Shura and after consultations and after reviewing everything, after deliberation, with prayers, he makes consultations, then he makes the decision, that is why the Khalifa is not a dictator. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I know that. But Khalifa ...after consultation, his order is final or, in consultation... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And 999 of his orders are that I agree with the decision that the majority makes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I am just asking you. 14 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, I'll tell you, meaning there is a law, and there is its... The way the law appears... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Legal position. If you pass an order after consultation or without consultation with your colleagues or with..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, if I consult... For example, they said what is the opinion, then it is the right of the Caliph of the time to say to them that based on these reasons, in my opinion, your opinion is not correct. In practice, what happens is that they say, okay, we have understood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This thing... No ---- Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And a unanimous decision was made. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question is a very simple one. Can they overrule you or can you overrule them, legally speaking? In fact, whatever may be the position, we are not concerned. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They can't overrule me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you can overrule them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the question of my overruling them does not arise in the context I have just told you. Because when they agree with me and they give a unanimous decision, then the question of me overruling does not arise. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you can overrule them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the question of me overruling does not arise. And they don't overrule me. [وہ خلیفتہ المسیح ہے۔ امیر المومنین مرزا ناصر احمد : جو ہے official designation جو ہے وہ لوگ دیسے لکھ دیتے ہیں۔ امام جماعت احمد یہ لکھ دیتے ہیں۔ خصوصاً یہ جو بیرون پاکستان کی جماعتیں ہیں ان کے لئے بعض مخلیفتہ اسے ، ان کی زبان پر بھی نہیں چڑھتا، اس واسطے وہ کہہ دیتے ہیں .Head of the World-wide Ahmadia Community لیکن جو آئنیشل ہے وہ صرف مخلیفتہ اسیح ہے۔ دوسری دو term in use میں بعض دفعہ لیکن وہ آفیشل نہیں ہے ، آفیشل خلیفتہ امسیح ہے۔] He is Khalifatul Masih. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Amir-ul-Momineen is the official designation, people write it like that. Imam Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya is written. Especially for the Jamaats outside of Pakistan, some Khalifatul, it is not even easy for them to pronounce, so they say Head of the World-wide Ahmadiyya Community. But the initial is only Khalifatul Masih. The other two terms are sometimes in use, but they are not official, official is Khalifatul Masih. [مرزا نا صراحہ: لوگ مجھے امام کہ دیتے ہیں۔ خلیفتہ امسیح کا مطلب ہی امام ہے۔] Mirza Nasir Ahmad: People call me Imam. The meaning of Khalifatul Masih is Imam. [مرزا ناصراحہ ہاں۔ میںنے تواپنے لئے خلیفہ اسی کا بھی منہ نہیں کیا، انہوں نے مجھے منتخب کر لیا۔] Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. I didn't even say Khalifa for myself, they elected me. 16 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I understand. The Amir of those people who accept the claim of the person who claimed to be the Mahdi, they are Momins. Al, in Arabic, is also used for "one," meaning it refers to a specific group. So, Amir-ul-Momineen has no other meaning besides this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Amir-e-Ahmadis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Amir-e-Mubai' Ahmadis, not all Ahmadis either, meaning it's even narrower than that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. But belonging to your school of 1 thought. So, according to you, momins are ...... if I put it this way ...... only these who belong to your school of thought, those Ahmadis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only those of the momins who belong to our thought Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "of the momins" not all? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, of the momins. That's why I clarified. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I want you to clarify. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely, it doesn't mean anything more than that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't pretend to be the Amir of all the muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh! No, no, no. Not all the momins. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 'Momins' means muslims, isn't it? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 17 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is a slight difference. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) told a companion, a Bedouin, that this is Islam and this is faith. And that difference is also in the Holy Quran. . . . . That becomes a long article. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, is Jamaat-e-Ahmadia a purely religious organization? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Purely a religious organization. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Purely religious organization. What are the functions that this organization performs, I means, for propagation of Islam, according to your concept of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The main thing is to try to establish true Islam. That is why we take it to the world. And there we have more competition with the Christians, because in the outside world, except for some special areas, especially in the West, almost all are Christian religion or believers or label holders. So, for example, England, in front of its churches, there are boards of "For Sale". But they call themselves Christians. They are even selling churches. Whoever buys them benefits from it. There are many atheists, but the world calls them Christians. That is, England, the religion of the whole nation is Christianity. We also have to compete with atheism there. That is why I have given this introduction. And what do they say to Christianity? Even today, the truthfulness of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has not been fully revealed to them, and slowly something has been revealed, that is why I have said it completely. We tell them that Islam is such a beautiful religion, it has so much power to show kindness, it has such teachings. So this is our job. And two results are coming out of it at this time. One is that at one time they did not understand at all and were so dirty 18 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug. 1974 They were acting cunningly, against Islam and against the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), that has reduced significantly. And secondly, many of them have converted to Islam. And in Denmark, there is a new Muslim who, after converting to Islam, learned Arabic and also translated the Holy Quran into Danish. So, true Islam, and by true Islam, I mean nothing more than what I consider true Islam. Naturally - Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the main function? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is the main function. And according to that, another corollary comes up. According to that, to train the members of the Ahmadiyya community, because as many commandments as there are in Islam, hundreds of them, our Ahmadiyya community has told us that on the Day of Judgment, the Holy Quran will be your judge. Out of the seven hundred commandments of the Holy Quran, do not violate any commandment so that you may be honored before God Almighty. Training and preaching are two different things. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, when you convert these people, you establish missions for this purpose all over the world? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Practically. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now can you give us an idea as to how many, on the average, every year or every week, every month, you convert to your faith? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We haven't kept any of that, we don't have the statistics. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No record? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But some records that some governments have taken at some time, from that we get the number. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 19 is known. For example, a census was probably conducted in Ghana in 1962, and in that census, only adult men and women were counted, and minor children were not counted. In a 21-22 lakh adult population, 2 hundred and sixty eight thousand were Ahmadis, according to their Census Report. So, we find out this way, otherwise, we don't do a census. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Too busy? Is your work of proselytizing more in Pakistan or in India or abroad? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We raise our voice everywhere, with great love and affection, and for the last few years, more attention is being paid to Islam outside Pakistan, and the popularity of Islam is spreading. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Could you please tell us, how many have been converted in Pakistan in the past 20 years or so? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have already told you that we have not taken a census, but my personal... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In Pakistan? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have never conducted a census here either. So, the number of people who have joined the initiation and call themselves Ahmadis, according to my rough estimate... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am not asking the population. I may come to that - the converts? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I don't know about that. 20 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am talking about converts. How many did you convert in a year? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have no record. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No record? No record at all? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Every Ahmadi becomes a member of your community, so isn't there any record of membership? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. That is, we don't give him any card, Identity, or—it's not like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Don't you even keep a register of that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That register is not in my knowledge. But he does take oaths of allegiance. The person who takes the oath of allegiance. Some people take the oath of allegiance by hand. Most people write and do it on the oath of allegiance form. But whether its counting has ever been done, this is not in my knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, do you take interest or your party, I mean, in Politics also or you keep away from Politics? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Thanks God, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't take any interest? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We don't take any interest. But there should be no confusion here. That is, the Ahmadi who is in his constituency... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As a jamaat I am asking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As a jamaat, yes, we have no...as a jamaat. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 21 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everybody is a voter, they can contest election, I know that. But as a Jamaat? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As a Jamaat Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As a Jamaat, you don't participate in Politics? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely not. Meaning, we have never even thought about having a political manifesto or fielding a person as a representative of the Jamaat, neither here nor in any country in the world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, can politics be separated from religion in Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In an individual's life, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But as a collective body, muslim body, it can be? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Collective... Well, that... It depends on what type of that organisation is. If it is an organisation that says that we, I only have to take care of the orphans, then it has nothing to do with politics, nor with opening schools, nor with opening medical centers. It depends on the nature of the organisation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, I will put it more bluntly, Sir. Is Khalifa in Islam not also head of the State, Head of the Government, in Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a very important question. I am glad you asked me. I will, of course, state my belief. Our belief is that during the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and you... 22 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 The era after that was such that spiritual leadership and worldly kingship had to be combined in one entity. Consequently, Allah Almighty gave the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) the kingship of the entire world, and later the Rightly Guided Caliphs, in addition to spiritual leadership, also received kingship and monarchy. They, may Allah reward them well, carried out their duties with great courage and wisdom. Now that the Promised Mahdi has arrived in our view, and the series of Caliphs that followed him continues, our basic, fundamental concept is that in this series, the Caliph of the time will never be a king. It will not happen. And there are very strong arguments for this. And this is our fundamental belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning the Caliph of the time will not be a king, there is no aspiration to become a President... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. No President, no Prime Minister, nothing whatsoever. There is no interest in politics. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As an organization, you don't aspire to capture political power? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. We... congratulations to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just asking for the record. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no. I say. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, according to you, religion is a matter of heart and conscience? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And it's a relationship of a spiritual nature between Imam and his Creator? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am referring Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay, okay. Absolutely correct, you have said correctly. 23 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But will you agree, Sir, that religion, in the sense that it is a matter of heart and conscience, that is, what you feel, what you think, what you believe, what your faith as, something nobody can interfere with? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nobody can interfere? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In your thinking, you are free; you can have any faith, you are free; you can believe anything you want, you are free; but this faith, this belief, this thinking has some outward expressions also? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you express your faith, when you say it, when you announce it or when you proclaim it, it is likely to affect others also, it is likely to have repercussions also. But when it is only confined to thinking believing, feeling, it doesn't. It is so or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Very vague question, I am afraid. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will elaborate any question further. 24 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug. 19741 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If I were to explain my difficulty, for example, if it is worship. If a person who converts to Islam from Christianity, is a resident of Denmark, and he regularly performs Namaz (prayer) in a public place according to Islamic tradition, saying Allahu Akbar and performing Ruku (bowing) and Sujood (prostration), the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 2888 j’uilat al-ard mesjida (The whole earth has been made a mosque for me) Allah Almighty has made the entire earth a mosque for me. There are two exceptions, no need to mention them here. And the Christians there say that this does not offend… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, this is not just that. I will put it very simply now. Every religion has got ceremonies, every religion has got rituals Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Rituals, yes and no, both. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A religion has a ritual that you can sacrifice a lamb? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Religion is affected also by you expressing your faith, isn't it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, some acts of worship are performed openly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want to know that religion has also an outward expression which can affect other things, people, situations. It is not just a matter of heart and conscience. It remains a matter of heart and conscience only if you think, if you believe, if you have a faith; but the moment you give an expression to that faith, that belief, you are likely to hurt somebody, you are likely to affect somebody, you are likely to favor somebody? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 25 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why do you say this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 'Likely to hurt somebody,' why likely to hurt somebody? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am coming. You know, Sir, I am not referring anything to you, to what you said. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just discussing religion because Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I just, yes, I just, I want to say myself. I am here.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am trying to elaborate. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you said that religion is something in which nobody should interfere. You asked this Assembly that it should not involve itself in this, it is a matter of heart and conscience. You said that this a human right, a fundamental right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Did I say that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will come to that. I am just....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I think I said that our constitution says it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. I am relying on human rights, I said declaration of human rights. 26 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you said you rely on that........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Declaration of human rights in the Constitution of Pakistan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That everybody has a right to have his religion, to profess, to practice and to propagate.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I was going to ask you if you profess, that again is a vague word. To profess means that you think and believe and have faith and have feelings about your religion, about Allah Almighty, about who is a Prophet and who is not. So long as it is confined to thinking, nobody can interfere, it is impossible. Thinking, thank God, nobody can interfere with. But action, when those feelings and thinkings and beliefs are put into action or translated in to action by words of mouth or other action, than is it still free? Do you still have the freedom to do whatever you want? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To, express our faith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: To express, to propagate? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To express our faith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, practice, I will say, use the word practice. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 2867 جاد لهم بالتي هي أحسن According to this Quranic guidance, there will be no harm from whatever happens. This is all actually that if you allow me, the paths that the Holy Quran has defined, if on those paths... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 27 If we proceed, no discord or corruption will arise. And the Holy Quran is such a great miracle and so diametrically opposed to discord and corruption that we have not seen such things in any other religion. "Indeed, Allah does not like corrupters." This is in many verses. The Holy Quran says to express your thoughts with an attitude of love for the other person. Do not even consider in your heart to cause him pain, or to strike him, or to consider him inferior. And a thing said with an attitude of love will not create discord, or at least the responsibility for that discord cannot be placed on the person who is acting with love and affection and with an attitude of selfless service. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, if I follow the Quran strictly, in any part of the world, you think, I will not commit any offence? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1 should not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing I want to marry twoł three wives in America .... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I ........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just asking you. Will they arrest me or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not compulsory. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: To have many wives? Mirza Nasir Ahmad; it is not compulsory. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I will give you another instance, Sir. You are a highly educated person. You know there is a Church call Mormon Church? 28 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I know. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And under their religion, their Christianity or their sect, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They can have not ........... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: …………….. it is not only permissible..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: but obligatory for a person, if the circumstances permit, to practice polygamy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But here ........... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, that is the freedom of religion. Will they allow him in america to marry? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If they don't allows it, they shouldn't do it or leave America. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but that is part of my faith; I am a Mormon Christian, it is a part of my faith; I want to practise my religion. Why should the American State which bows for freedom of religion, interfere and put me in jail? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here a new question has arisen, that when a person's religious belief conflicts with the law of the time, then what path should be taken. This is a new question, isn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: , I will come to this again. Now I come to the preliminary stage. Now, Sir, will you tell the Special Committee as to how many members belong to Jamaat-e-Ahmadia or your school of CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION thought of the Ahmadiyya Movement throughout the world? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Throughout the world, 29 According to my estimate, there are approximately one crore. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And how many of them are in Pakistan? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: According to my estimate, from 35 to 40 lakhs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: At the time of the death of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, what was the number of Ahmadis? Have you any idea. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Very rough idea. There would be a few thousand. Yes, four lakhs. They were close to four lakhs at that time. These are all my rough estimates. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to 1901 Census Report, there were about 1800. Is it correct? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, this is very confusing because I have been looking through various figures. It seems that in 1908, at the time of Mirza Sahib's death, the number given was 19000. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Census Report? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is a document, a book published by the Foreign Office of British Government in 1920 in their Registry Office. They have given that at the death of the founder. 30 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is their version. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am just saying because it may be wrong; I am not Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here, yes, that's right. I also said, aren't they estimates. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In 1908, the sect, which at that time did not exceed 19000, has split up into two rival parties and appear to be declining in number........ whether your faction or the other faction, I do not know....... but this is what the British Government's certificate is. Then, Sir, in....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But this is not for the first time that the British Government is misinformed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no; that is possible; I am not saying, I am just asking. You know a better figure. But there is a statement by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad in 'Ahmadiyyat or the True Islam', published in 1959, wherein it is stated that at the time of his death, which occurred in 1908, his followers could be counted by hundreds or thousands. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, nearly four hundred thousand, I told you, didn't I. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is also an estimate in 1908. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, at the time of death. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The census figure, however, of 1908 shows that there were only 18,000. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then the census figure of 1921 shows that there were only 30,000. The 1931 figure shows that they were 56,000. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Fifty-six? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And this is confirmed by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud in a address which appeared in 'Al-Fazal' of 5th August, 1934, which says that: "At that time, our numbers were much less than today's, that is, according to the official census, it was 800. At that time, the number of subscribers to the newspaper 'Al-Badr' was 400. At this time, the official census is 56,000. And if the first ratio is taken into account, then our newspaper should have more than 4000 subscribers in Punjab alone." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean he referred to it. He doesn't say here that this is a wrong figure. I am just saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, he is telling the community that the purchase of Al-Badr newspaper should be more. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but he mentioned......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 56,000. I am referring to it by the way that it was Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right, by the way. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, then, after that we come to Munir. I say 'Munir Enquiry Court Report' because you know what I am referring to. 32 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There was a disturbance in the Punjab in 1953. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And a Court of Enquiry was set up. There the figure given by your Jamaat, it seems, it is stated, was two lacs or two hundred thousand? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Two hundred thousand in Pakistan? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Pakistan. And now, I think, you have either ignored the population planning scheme or something like that you have suddenly jumped to 30 lacs........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is about........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .....or 40 lacs; or have there been so many converts? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the thing is that, as far as official statistics are concerned, at that time there weren't even people to collect the statistics to attribute someone to a certain sect, because generally they were non-Muslims and generally their effort was that Muslims... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am not referring to the Census Report. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The figure given by you to Mr. Justice Munir, your Jamaat, CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. 33 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: was 2 lacs in 1954. Then Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1960 Edition......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, the first one from Lahore? I think no, not Lahore one. I think it is : ŠOL published in Holland. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: On which page of the inquiry report is this, Munir's? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think page 10. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Page 10. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Encyclopaedia of Islam says that the figure of Ahmadis as given by them ... this is 1960 Edition; may be a year or two before the figure was given.......... is half a million throughout the world, out of whom half are in Pakistan, that is, about two lacs. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I do not know who gave them these statistics. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am just saying because there is some confusion about the figures and members. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is written here: "It is stated to me"; not by whom. 2903 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is not clear. So, we presume that perhaps the party concerned may have stated. I would not accept Ahraris word for it. 34 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Perhaps somebody else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but the Encyclopaedia clearly says that it was stated there by Ahmadis. That may be wrong, halt......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, regarding the Encyclopedia, I can only say that I do not know who gave them the statistics. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say half a million through- out the world........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I understand that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ........and at least half of them are in Pakistan. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am only submitting that I do not know which agency gave them the statistics. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, to cut it short, if I say that the number of Ahmadis in Pakistan is not more than two hundred thousand, you cannot contradict me through any document? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't like to........ My estimate is 3.5 to 4 million. Yours is 200,000. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am asking you.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am in this........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But can you suggest, can you CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 35 contradict me through documentary evidence, record, your own Jamaat's record? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you prove the two hundred thousand with documentary proof, then I will not contradict. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. I rely on Munir Enquiry Report, that is the document. So, you are not contradicting it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, they haven't written anything in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Encyclopaedia of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is not official at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nothing is official, Mirza Sahib. If you bring your register, I am going to accept that. There is no question of official. We are not going to distribute property of members of any particular seat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Excuse me, I am not objecting. I am just understanding something myself . . . . Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just wanted to come at a right number. I said if you could come to a right number of the Ahmadis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Until there is a census . . . . Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you yourself are not sure. If you had been sure.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am not sure. No, I am not sure. 36 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ..........I would have accepted your word that they are three million. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you yourself are not sure. Now, Sir, I come to your address which you delivered on the 21st of June, Friday, 21st of June, which is Annexure-II, Annexure No. 2 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that Friday sermon? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the Friday sermon, ........where you have Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: interpreted freedom of religion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In this, one thing should be remembered, that the Friday sermon was in Urdu and here probably it is… do… a translation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, you correct Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is a translation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is very well written and I think there is no mistake as far as language is concerned. You can correct it now. I am not going into detail of any word, but generally you have said that everyone has a right to say what his religion is. That is the first observation you made. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 37 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is this. Then, Sir, you say. [ quote: "Religious freedom, therefore means that everyone is free to specify his religion and no power, no government can interfere with the exercise of that right." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is on page 14. Then, Sir, you further go on to say:- "I proclaim that I am a Muslim Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: who can have the right to say that I am not a Muslim? This would be utterly foolish." This is page 14. Have I quoted you correctly, Sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have spoken of the same meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I have written it down from here. Then, Sir, having asserted your right of freedom of religion in terms mentioned just now. You have raised a preliminary objection with regard to the competence of the National Assembly or Parliament to declare as to who is a Muslim and who is not a Muslim. You raised this object in your Mahzar Namah. Mirza Nasir Ahmada: Yes, Affidavit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, what is the law, the rule, the provision of Constitution, on the basis of which you objected to the jurisdiction of the National Assembly or Parliament........... 38 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What do you rely on? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I rely on clauses 8 and 20. Our constitution has a dominant clause 8 which states that this House will not have the authority to diminish or revoke the rights it has granted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Article 8 and Article 20? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Probably 8. Take it out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you have also referred to the Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Universal Declaration of Human Rights....... that dates from 1948 and all the nations that are not its members... they became party to that Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I will not go into greater detail. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will ask a very simple question. Is the Parliament competent to amend Article 8 and Article 20? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What does the constitution say? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, by two-thirds majority they can amend; through a particular procedure they can amend. I am not saying.......... I am coming to that ......... but I am just suggesting a simple proposition. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad, this that is... 39 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They should not do it, that is different, but I am just saying is the Parliament not competent to repeal Article 8 altogether and Article 20 altogether? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I want to answer this if you allow. This parliament of ours, this National Assembly, this is the supreme legislative body, and there is no restriction on it, except for the restrictions that it imposes on itself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I wanted to know. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They could do it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, and they have imposed this restriction on themselves. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I appreciate that they should not do it, they ought not to do it; that is different. But they are legally competent to do it, to repeal Article 20 and to repeal Article 8, or any other provision? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, exactly. That's what I said, that it has the status of a supreme legislative body. There is no agency above them that can impose restrictions. But some restrictions have been imposed by this supreme legislative body on itself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: With that I agree. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am referring to that. 40 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those are of a political nature, of a religious nature, but not of a constitutional nature. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, no, that is what I am referring to. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now I come back to your address. I am going to quote a lot from it because this is very important from my point of view to clarify the position. In your address, the same address, Sir, on page 12, you say: "The Constitution of Pakistan, in which our Prime Minister takes great pride and which, according to his declaration, establishes for Pakistan a high position in the eyes of the world and augments its respect and honor, provides in Article 20 as follows: "(a) Every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and (b) Every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions." (Page 12) After that you referred to the pages of the Constitution from where you have quoted. Now, here I may respectfully ask you, Sir, have you reproduced the whole of the Article or have you forgotten part of this Article? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have left out the initial part which is understood in everyone's mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am grateful. That part……………….. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Subject to law and morality." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. That means that freedom of religion is subject to law, public order and morality. That part is conceded to them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Of course, Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not going to ask you questions because first we finish with quotations and then I will ask you questions. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, it's fine. 42 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, Sir, you further say: "Today, the meaning of religious freedom is that every man has a right to decide for himself whether he is a Muslim or not, whether he is a Christian or not, whether he is a Jew or not, whether he is a Hindu or not, whether he is a Budhist or not, whether he is an a-theist or not. It is for each individual to say which religion he belongs to and no power on earth and not all the powers of the world combined can deprive him of this right." it....... So, Sir, according to you this right, the way you have put Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ......is inalienable. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .........is absolute, unrestricted, unqualified, unconditional; no power on earth can interfere. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This confusion should not arise here. In the mind, this is not about practice, it is about declaration and it is an absolute right that a person says whether he is a Muslim or not. Law, morality, public order come into play when he does something, manifests his creed, does some demonstrations according to his beliefs. But as far as profession is concerned, whether he says that he is a Muslim or not, this is an absolute right of every human being. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, you liave used the words in the speech and 1 pointedly draw your attention to them; they are: "He has the right to say, to specify, to proclaim, to decide, to announce.......... " Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is exactly it, I have given the meaning of profess according to my own understanding. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 43 One might agree with it or not. E Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, as I said before... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It becomes related to practice, doesn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .........that he....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I didn't say "practice" in that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you profess something; if you think you are a Muslim, if you believe you are a Muslim, nobody can......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's right, your point is correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am submitting that if you announce, then that means either a speech is called for as you write........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A man declares that I am a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He declares or writes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Or writes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It means some action.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......... to express.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Expression of one's belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: . .one's belief so that. ........ 44 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not practice on it. [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When belief is expressed, even there you claim, to this extent, I mean.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, to that extent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: interference by the State.......... ..that there should be no Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To my mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ..or any body? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my opinion... that is my belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, if any body declares that he is a Muslim, a Christian a Budhist, no one should question his announcement or declaration? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No worldly authority. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: is authorised or empowered to question that? His word should be accepted for this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, whoever says that I am a Muslim, we will have to call him a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar; No, but, Sir, there are some further complications in my mind. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, when we reach that...when we reach that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing a person knowingly, with ulterior motive, for some material gain, falsely declares that he is a Christian when in fact he is not, or he is a Muslim when in fact he is not......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ..do you still think that 45 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ha, ha, now we are going to find out that he is a hypocrite? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But if we can find out, than we can interfere, if he falsely does it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If he is a hypocrite and Islam, the Holy Quran says that you still have to call him a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am just asking you that if I personally know a person that he is a Muslim, but for some worldly gain, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Aaa, aaa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: for some advantage, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: he falsely declares himself to be a Christian, . Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: do you think, we still should not interfere because he has announced it? That is his freedom? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You said I know someone. If, for example, I know... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I mean "if", anybody. ✓ 46 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that's why I took "I" upon myself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I wasn't saying that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 'I know him personally.' Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If I don't know him personally, then I have no right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have no right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely no right of mine. This will create a great disturbance. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, I am not giving the example, Sir, of a man who is about to be killed and to save his life, he says, "I am a Muslim" or "I am a Christian" or supposing a religious fanatic is going to kill some one because he does not belong to his faith........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? Or? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know that is permissible. I am not taking that example. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Or their inquisition, which the clerical Court carried out at one time, and at that time, the decision they made, the Christian clergy, was that you should burn him at the stake. Rather roast him on the fire. And may Allah Himself decide. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not taking the case of even that person who, in order to save his life, makes a false declaration. Suppose he is a Christian........ CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 47 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, here also the same... I am also giving the same example. So, they said that if he, in order to save his life, even after being a Protestant, declares himself to be a Roman Catholic, even after this declaration, burn him and leave the decision to God whether he should go to heaven or hell. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, yes, I am not giving that example. But I am just.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is one of the very extreme examples in this case. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but there, Sir, if a person has to save his life, it is permissible to tell a lie to save his life, I think? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I don't think. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, I don't know, sometimes you sacrifice the truth in the very interest of truth. If a man is innocent and somebody is going to kill him just because he does not belong to his faith and I say no he does not belong to that caste or to that religion. It happened near Khuzdar. There was a policeman - near about 1965 or that time - there was a policeman traveling in a bus and some of those people, traveling people, got hold of that bus along with others. The policeman was not in uniform but they found the uniform packed up in the bus. The policeman and other people were taken away with the intention to kill them. One of the Maulvis there, who knew that this man was a policeman, took oath on Quran and said, "I know that he is not a policeman" to save his life. Do you think that man committed a crime by telling a lie? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. 48 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just saying this that sometimes one may do it. But I am not taking these examples, Sir. I am going to come to earth and take a very simple example. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, then take that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, supposing, as we have a lot of difficulties in getting admission to colleges these days. You know that, so we take a medical college, for instance, Dow Medical College, Karachi, has got 200 seats. Now, there are about a thousand Muslim boys, all First Divisions, contesting for these 200 seats. But, out of them, 10 are reserved for Minorities Christians, Hindus, Parsis. Out of 10, say 6 are reserved for Hindus, 3 are also First Divisioners, so they contest among themselves; 3 are reserved for Christians, one for Parsi. There is also one First Divisioner Parsi and he will go and take that seat. Now, among the Christians, there are six or seven candidates and there are three seats; but there is only one Second Divisioner Christian and the rest are Third Divisioners. Now, I want to get into that college. I have got a First Division, but not a very high First Division. If I put it in my admission form: "Yahya Bakhtiar—Christian", now you think the Principal of the college, knowing very well, should not interfere. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have got no right to declare your Christianity. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have no right, but I am deceiving, I am cheating, I am falsely declaring that what I say, because I know that this is a fundamental right and nobody on earth can interfere; and why should I not take advantage? Do you think the world is not full of thieves? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are talking from the other end. I am talking from this end. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am........ CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am saying that you have no right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking............... Mr. Chairman: No, no the proposition has been put by the lawyer and the witness has to reply to that proposition. He may agree or he may not agree. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no question of agreeing; but I say you know that there are cheats in this world and you know that people cheat and you know that people deceive them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Every one of us should condemn them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, 'condemn' is one thing, Sir, but if you are invested with some authority, you are the Principal of a college and you have been the principal of a college- and when the form comes to you and you know that Yahya Bakhtiar, First Division, cannot get in because his marks are low among the First Divisioners, but he says that he is a Christian, now I can't question his faith, this is his fundamental right, Article 20 guarantees it, so, therefore, he has to be admitted, Sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you this. Sir, shall we have a break? In the meanwhile.......... Mr. Chairman: Yes, after about five minutes we will have a break. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I ... Mr. Chairman: Let the answer to this question come. It is a question of opinion. The Witness has to give his opinion, Yes or No. 50 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just some expression. A man deliberately, falsely makes a declaration for material gains. Mr. Chairman: What would be the opinion of the Witness regarding this proposition? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You need not answer this question at all. Mr. Chairman: It is up to you; it's up to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I... I have answered it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't approve of that man? Mr. Chairman: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't approve of that man. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you still think that the state...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My point is that it cannot be said that I have not given any answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, but I am just asking you, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is why I have answered so it is on record. Mr. Chairman: - It may be repeated. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have given the same answer that I condemn that young man who falsifies the documents. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But if you are the Principal of the college, what expression you will give to your condemnation on the paper? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 51 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have been the principal from 1944 to 1965, and to my knowledge, every child who came to me was so noble that he did not say anything wrong in front of me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, you are very fortunate. But I am asking you: supposing I am the principal and someone comes like me, then what shall I do? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have no experience. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I am asking you that I am the principal of Dow Medical College and I know a particular boy is Muslim and wants to get into the college and deprive a Christian of his legitimate right, a reserved seat. On the one hand he is telling a lie, on the other hand he is depriving a Christian of his seat. But you say that this is his fundamental right because he is.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If, as a result of his action and after your firm conviction, he is infringing on someone else's right, then you should protect the right of the person whose right is being infringed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is permitted to leave for 15 minutes. We will again meet..... A Member: 15 minutes? Mr. Chairman: But the honourable members may keep sitting. At 12-15, the Delegation is expected to come back in the Assembly. The honourable member may keep sitting. (The delegation left the chamber) Mr. Chairman: I would request the honourable members. Mian Attaullah, just only for two minutes, just for one minute. Give me time then I am going to take recess. 52 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Saiyid Abbas Husain Shah Gardezi and Sardar Aleem, I just wanted to say one thing. I wanted to thank the honourable members. And this is my personal observation... Mr. Attorney-General, Maulana Zafar Ahmad, just one minute. I think we are........ I am at least quite satisfied with the method of Attorney-General. And we are grateful. Let it be placed on record. And I think most of our problems are over; and supplementary problems and everything will, of course, be taken up the way it is being conducted. I am, as a lawyer, more than satisfied and I think this is the opinion of the House. Thank you very much. We meet at 12.15. Thank you very much. (The Special Committee adjourned for 15 minutes to re-assemble at 12.15 p.m.) [The Special Committee re-assembled after the break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: I will request the honourable members to be in their seats and we will proceed just when the quorum is complete. Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad has pointed out that there should not be appreciation by the Chair; so it may be amended accordingly. The House is satisfied with the conduct of the Attorney-General. Only this much should be written, the rest should be deleted. Professor Sahib has pointed out that there should not be appreciation from the Chair, with the conduct of the Attorney-General, satisfaction. Are you arriving, sir? No. I think that is....... Yes? SUPPLY OF COPIES OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION 5 Malik Mohammad Jafar: Sir, can I make a submission? Mr. Chairman: Yes, yes. Malik Mohammad Jafar: Sir, after this cross-examination.......... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Malik Mohammad Jafar: I assume that there will be a debate, and naturally that debate will be conducted on the basis of examination-in-chief and the cross-examination. Mr. Chairman: Yes, correct. Malik Mohammad Jafar: So, I think that the copies of this statement.......... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Malik Mohammad Jafar: should, as the statement goes, Mr. Chairman: Yes, I am looking........ Malik Mohammad Jafar: should be prepared so that they can study and......... Mr. Chairman: I am looking into the matter. So far as the examination-in-chief is concerned, every member has got the copy. Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes. I am mentioning the cross-examination. Mr. Chairman: Yes. For the cross-examination, I will have to make double arrangements. I will discuss this matter with my Secretariat. Today, I will discuss it and I will see that 54 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5th, 1974 the entire record is available before the debate opens. I think the debate will be after the 20th. Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes. Mr. Chairman: By that time we will prepare the record. Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes; and copies should be supplied. Mr. Chairman: Copies of the Cross-examination........ (Interruption) No, no, that has been decided by the Steering Committee; the questions shall remain with the Attorney-General. Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: We should be given a copy.......... (Interruption) No, Sir, after writing, Sir, we should be given a copy after you have finished. Mr. Chairman: Call them outside. A Member: Mr. Speaker! ... (Interruption) SUPPLEMENTARY QUESTIONS FOR CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Chairman: Okay, one second. One thing I may also point out, one second, one second, that as many questions as there are, supplementary - these may be handed over to Mr. Aziz Bhatti and to Moulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari; so that the Attorney-General is not disturbed by the Chits. So, during the break, the Attorney-General will receive these questions and will examine them and whatever possible course CORRECTION OF RECORD OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Sahibzada Safiullah: Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit that... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Sahibzada Safiullah: ...that the general practice has always been that when speeches are made here in the Assembly, the reporters send us those speeches so that we can correct them. So what is the procedure now? That is, will these reports still be sent to them for correction? Mr. Chairman: To whom? To whom? Sahibzada Safiullah: These who are. Mr. Chairman: No, no, they will not be given to them, they will be given to you. Sahibzada Safiullah: Okay. Mr. Chairman: To all of you, the cross-examination. Sahibzada Muttaqiullah: No, my point is that for correction, these reporters who report the speeches, will they also be given to them so that they can correct their own? Mr. Chairman: No, no. This is the privilege of the members. Sahibzada Safiullah: Yes, that's right. Mr. Chairman: Yes, members only. Sahibzada Safiullah: I too... 56 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: This privilege is for the members, only for the members. Sahibzada Musafiullah: No, will there be any change in this? Mr. Chairman: No, no. We will correct it ourselves, through the tape recording. After that, it will be distributed among the members. Should I call the Delegation? Maulana Syed Mohammad Ali. Maulana Syed Mohammad Ali Rizvi: Before the questions, such an opportunity should be given to them that they could fully explain their question, after that they should be asked in the same manner, then there would be no problem. Mr. Chairman: I think the method is being properly practiced. Since there are many questions in which half a question is asked, half an answer is taken, and then skip over to another question. Maulana Syed Mohammad Ali Rizvi: Not in front of them. Mr. Chairman: They may be called. Alright, call them. TIMINGS OF SITTINGS FOR THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr, Chairman: We will sit upto 1.30.... (Interruption ) ...... to 11.30 in the morning and then 12.30 to 1.30 and then from 6.00 to 7.15 and then from 8.00 to 9.30. Yes, whose yes? A member: 9.30? Mr. Chairman: Yes. One hour or one and a quarter hours each. Then there will be a break. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, you agree that a Christian boy or girl, who has applied for admission to a Medical College, should not be deprived of his right of admission because of a false declaration of a Muslim boy? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is an exceptional case and exception can only prove the rule. They are not converted into a general rule. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I request you, Sir, that if, in such a case, the Principal finds that the declaration is false, he should or should not interfere, he should or should not question that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If one is sure. And one seldom is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just presume that the Principal is sure. Of course, if he is false, then the question does not arise. If the Principal knows that the declaration is false .... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If he is sure, then justice must be done. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you agree? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But I am...... I agree with it, but I want to add that such exceptions can only prove the rule. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, Sir, whether you call it an exception or something which has happened quite often, but you will kindly agree that this freedom to announce.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In certain exceptional cases, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: this freedom to announce what one's religion is, is not absolute; there are some qualifications. 58 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is absolute; and this exception proves that it is absolute. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There could be circumstances when a declaration could be false. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There could be circumstances which could be considered as exceptional. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But even if exceptional, what will be your orders action? The court should interfere when the court finds out? Supposing the Christian boy goes and files a writ petition. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It depends on the discretion......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No question of discretion if the evidence comes on the record that the boy, who has applied and pretends to be a Christian, is in fact a Muslim...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But if he........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if he admits in the court that 'I am a Muslim but nobody can question my right to declare'? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If we come to that extent, my reply is in the negative. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even then we should not interfere? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: U, should not interfere. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Christian boy should be deprived of his right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know. We should not question his profession. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anybody can declare? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 59 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anybody can declare; and that is enough in the ordinary circumstances of the case. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A court should not interfere, the Government should not interfere, the Principal should not interfere? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The example that is before us is that he does not go to the court but goes to the Principal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing, as I said, the boy files a writ petition in the High Court. The Principal does not question, as you say it is his right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the petition goes to the High Court, then the judge will decide on the evidence he receives. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Will the judge be in a position to decide on evidence or should the declaration be sufficient? He says, 'no'. He declares that is enough, that is the fundamental right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the evidence shows that he does not really declare himself to be of such a religion, then the judge would decide according to the evidence he receives. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then it means that if it is false, the judge will interfere? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It means that the judge will decide according to the evidence he receives. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Then it means that the judge has the right to interfere then. I am asking that in settling the question of principle-can anybody interfere in such a right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well. I am afraid, what I comprehend and I might be wrong that you are giving an exceptional example, not the law. 60 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will give you more examples, but I am just clarifying the position as... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the case goes to the judge, he must decide according to the evidence he receives. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if he comes.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's the law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, if he comes to the conclusion that this declaration is false.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If he comes to the conclusion, then he decides according to his discretion; then God will deal with him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You think there should be no law on the subject? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not a question of law, this is a question of an exception in a law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, in all these forms, they say that "I hereby declare that these facts given in the form are correct and true to the best of my knowledge". There is a sort of affidavit; complete declaration is given. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let us take another example. If a person declares that he is a Muslim and believes in five fundamentals of Islam, the Arkan-i-Islam, but he doesn't perform Hajj even when he can possibly do that, and he doesn't pay any Zakat, would you believe in the profession? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will draw your attention to a chapter in Muslim history. Those Muslims who refused to pay Zakat, I mean Ansars and Muhajireen both, and they refused to pay, they were Munkarin of Zakat, were they not deprived of their right to be called Muslims and Jihad was ordered against them? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 61 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there are two things; let me clarify this; one thing is not to pay zakat, the other is to declare that ....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Munkareen, I said. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Munkareen? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Two things: one is zakat, the other one is just the act, you know, doesn't pay. The person who denies Zakat denies one of the five pillars of Islam, therefore he is not a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but .......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But that person does not deny it, I have given this example... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The person who says that it is necessary to give Zakat, the person who says that it is necessary to offer prayers, the person who says that it is necessary to fast in Ramadan, the person who says that if one has the means and circumstances allow, then it is necessary to perform Hajj, despite this he does not offer prayers, or does not fast, or does not give Zakat, or does not perform Hajj, so despite practically denying all five things, do we call him a Muslim or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But if he says I am a Muslim..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We call him a Muslim, that's what I am saying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If that person who: professes.... 62 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... in Islam and he believes, he declares that he believes in five fundamentals...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I said, "Thank God" who refuses, who doesn't accept the concept of zakat or who denies it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These are the five pillars, right? To recite the Kalima Shahadat, to offer prayers, in Ramadan to fast, to give zakat, to perform Hajj. Whoever, out of these, anyone out of these five declares annulled, he is denying his Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then he... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is denying Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is no longer a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is no longer a Muslim. He has declared it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who will decide? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He himself has decided. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if he says "I am a Muslim" despite that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He cannot say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if he says? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These people have... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is a very rare case. It is not a rare case. It has happened in the history. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 63 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if he says it, he must be sent to a mental hospital. He is a madman who would say that I don't believe in fasting, I don't believe in prayers... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he says, Mirza Sahib! That according to my interpretation, Zakat is absolutely wrong and it cannot happen and it was in particular circumstances, therefore I deny it, is he also a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That person practically says that I consider all those verses of the Holy Quran to be abrogated, which we read every day in the Holy Quran. How can you call such a person a Muslim who himself is declaring himself a disbeliever? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he doesn't say that. He himself says that I am a Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And does not believe in the Quran? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does not believe. I am giving you an extreme example. Supposing a man says that 'I am a Muslim but I don't believe in the Holy Prophet' Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have so much respect for you and this entire House in my heart that I cannot express it. But I would dare to say that you should not give such extreme examples because we will not reach any conclusion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I am not being disrespectful. I hope you will not consider that I am being disrespectful. I have all the regard for you and I know you are defending a cause, and you know I am performing a duty. But please see, these are not extreme examples. Sometimes we have to go to the extreme to clarify the position. 64 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: All right. Then my answer is that the person who [believes in] the five pillars, which are the pillars of Islam, one is the Kalma Shahadat, which he will recite, that is fundamental, basic, essential. Apart from that, the way Islam, in the Holy Quran, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)'s Sunnah, has instructed to offer prayers, and instructed to fast in Ramadan, and instructed to pay Zakat, and instructed to perform Hajj, he declares faith in them, but in practice, he is not bound by any of them. The way we call him... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar... That is correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: ...No, no, I have not finished my point yet. The way we call him a Muslim, similarly, the person who denies any of these, we will have to call him a non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So do you have the right to call someone a non-Muslim, even though he calls himself a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: My point is that he himself declares that he is not a Muslim, who says that prayer is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What if he doesn't declare it? Mirza Sahib, what if he doesn't declare it? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: He is denying it through his actions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You stated the other day that there are seventy-two (72) sects, seventy-three (73), seventy-four (74), seventy-five (75) sects emerge. One sect says that we do not consider fasting necessary among these pillars. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It is possible that it may emerge. But the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not inform us of this. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 65 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, if seventy-two (72) sects come together and say that we do not accept this part, that this condition is not necessary? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When there are five pillars of Islam upon which Islam is founded, and which a person... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I... No sir, my meaning is only this, I am just asking you if anybody denies one of the essentials of Islam... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I, I have... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...can you declare him as a non-Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The person who among these five pillars... My answer is this: the person who declares that he does not accept as correct one or more of these five pillars and that it is not a part of Islam, in my view, has practically declared himself an infidel. No one else needs to say anything. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Now I am going back to the student's matter again. I would not take that example because you call it an extreme example. Now, Sir, you know that, in Saudi Arabia, non-Muslims are not allowed to visit the holy places... Mecca and Madina. Supposing a Jew in Holland or Belgium is engaged by the Israelis as their spy and then he makes a declaration and obtains a passport that he is a Muslim. I don't think it will be an extreme example because people have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can his authority be questioned? 66 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He would be arrested as a spy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After inquiry? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He would be arrested as a spy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But the question does not arise whether he is Muslim or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am asking you a simple question: how will he be arrested? Somebody has to inquire into the declaration whether it is true or false. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When it is proved that he entered the holy places or that Government area, that Saudi country, with the intention of spying on that country, when it is proved, he would be arrested as a spy, not as a non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will give you another example. Supposing a journalist out of curiosity, a Christian out of curiosity to see what these Muslims are doing there, obtains a passport in which he makes a false declaration that he is a Muslim and wants to see Mecca and Madina………………..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He would be arrested for submitting a false declaration, not as a non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who is going to question that the declaration is false or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: False declaration......... not his profession he would be arrested for submitting a false declaration. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, the point is that somebody can question his declaration if he says, "I am a Muslim"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The authority concerned, of course. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 67 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, then you agree that authority, some authority, is there who can question a declaration about religion? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The authority which is concerned with a man who submits a false declaration. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, of course. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is exactly what I say. Sir, that you agree that this right to announce what one's religion is, or declare what one's religion is, is subject to restrictions? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is something else.......false declaration. To submit a false declaration, which is proved by investigation by the authority competent to do that, this is something else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. I will ask you again, Sir. I think I have not made myself clear. Do you agree that if a person makes a false declaration, or any kind of declaration, somebody else has an authority to examine it, enquire into it, question it, about his religion? If I fill in a form....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not about his religion, but about his declaration. Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, in the declaration, a falsehood lies in the fact that he is not a Muslim and he says that he is a Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The authority is concerned with the declaration, not with his faith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the authority is concerned that no non-Muslim should get in there. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The authority is concerned with the man who submits a false declaration. 68 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, because he is not a Muslim and he is entering. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whatever the case might be......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So .... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We are least concerned. He declares himself a Muslim, he declares that he represents one of the very big firms who are doing some construction work in Saudi Arabia; he can do this; he can do that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but…......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has to be questioned about the declaration which he makes......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which he makes to the authority, not about the faith which he has got. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I put it in a different language. If a person goes to Saudi Arabia, who, in fact, is a Christian or a Jew....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But how do you know? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "In fact," I said. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is presumed. So, when.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: First you presume it, then you put that gentleman before a court. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I say that it is presumed. It is a fact....... I am not talking personally of doubtful cases....... it is a fact that a person is a Christian or a Jew, but he says that 'since I have declared in my form that I CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 69 am a Muslim, nobody should question my declaration, this is my human right." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the intention of going there? Spying? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not spying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Curiosity? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Out of curiosity, sight seeing. He knows that this is a very old and ancient religious center and he would like to see it, but he knows that except Muslims nobody else is allowed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In that case, a conducted tour should be arranged to take him around to see the old places and satisfy his curiosity. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if he is not that important that it should be arranged; supposing he makes a declaration of this sort, can U.N. Charter help him? Can he say that the Charter gives him the right to declare himself as a Muslim and nobody...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Every law, constitutional or other- wise, pre-supposes good intentions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Exactly. That is what I was going to say. So, you say that 'I announce I am a Muslim, I decide I am a Muslim, I declare I am a Muslim? That means that the Declaration must be honest, must be bonafide, must be made in good faith. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I declare that I don't submit any false declaration........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. So, anybody who makes the declaration....... 70 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .. I am not telling lies, so many declaration.. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am not talking about any particular person but anybody. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, anybody. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he makes a declaration honestly, in good faith, only then a fundamental right is given to him, not if he makes if falsely, with ulterior motive, in bad faith, then the fundamental right is not for him. You agree with this proposition? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I agree that exceptions can only prove the rule. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not exception, it is a general proposition. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is my answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A declaration that 'I am a Muslim', I say, if I make it in good faith, if should be accepted? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If I make......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I make it in good faith? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That means that I am honest to God. That is what I mean by this that if I make this in good faith, I am honest to God. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but if I give the extreme example that the man was not honest to God or to the man? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The extreme examples are exceptions and the exceptions can only prove the rule; that is the point. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 71 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They may or may not. But here a Christian boy is deprived of his seat if we accept your first proposition; but if we accept your second proposition wherein you say that it should be made honestly, then the boy will not be deprived of his seat, but then the Principal will interfere. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is he, that Principal Sahib, incapable of making a mistake? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everyone is capable of making a mistake. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is also capable of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am talking on the basis of evidence. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The evidence that is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If proved? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, the evidence that is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If a person himself says? Sir, I am taking this example. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a common fact you know in our courts; quite a few people are sent to the gallows without any murder committed by them. ♬ nobody to blame. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, L.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because the judge makes decisions based on evidence, that's why nobody is to blame. 72 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, sir. This is a daily thing. When boys get admission, they get domicile certificates or a certificate of permanent residence. I belong to Quetta. Now if I want........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now I tell you this thing that this thing can never happen in America false declaration to secure a seat in one of the educational institutions. So why should we degrade ourselves so much to make such an extreme example? Why would we make the youth of our nation do such a thing? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am giving you an example. I tell you another example now if you think that degrading. For various districts, in these colleges, some quotas are fixed for backward areas. Now, Baluchistan has got about thirty seats in the Dow Medical College. And if people belonging to those areas get from the Deputy Commissioner the certificate of permanent residence and they file a declaration with it that "I was born there and I am permanently settled in that district", on the basis of that they apply for admission. Now, supposing that he makes a false declaration .... and I can assure you Mirza Sahib there are many of them....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: and a false certificate is issued to him........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: been issued to him........... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...for a few rupees.......... ... and a false certificate has ...by the District Magistrate..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .......on the basis of his declaration and oath he gets the certificate and he get the admission. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 73 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We should condemn his act......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know. But will the Principal or court interfere or not? Or should they interfere? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: because the first depends on the evidence before the court........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So, it means that based on evidence, if it is found false, the court can interfere? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the evidence is there, they should decide accordingly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That means........... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is obvious. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, someone has to enquire? You give this right to somebody to enquire into the fact whether this person has made a false declaration or a true declaration? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In some cases, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In some cases, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. I do not say in every case. Normally it is not needed. Now, Sir, I am sorry to bother you because you raised a question of fundamental right No. 20 and the Constitution has got other fundamental rights also. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Article 18 deals with freedom of trade, profession, and it reads: 74 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 "Subject to such qualifications, if any, as may be prescribed by law, every citizen shall have the right to enter upon any lawful profession or occupation, and to conduct any lawful trade or business." Now, this is also one of the rights just like freedom of religion, freedom of trade, profession and business. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Does this mean that if someone wants to take up the profession of medicine and does not have a diploma in medicine, then the law will forbid him? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Forbid him, because this is subject to such qualification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Such very rational, very fundamental........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ..qualification we expect from........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just trying………………... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... to show that fundamental rights are subject to certain........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The fundamental? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: _restrictions, some qualifications. They are not absolute. Now, Sir, ……………………. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 75 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. That means they are absolute......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, Sir, ......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: because these exceptions only prove the rule; these exceptions you mentioned here only prove that the rule is absolute. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, thousands of persons are not qualified; a few hundred are qualified. Only qualified can practise. So, this is no exception to prove the rule. This a very strict qualification.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All right, let us Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... on medicine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: trifles. not quarrel over these Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now the next point is that the trade, it says, or business or profession is a any lawful profession, occupation or to conduct any lawful trade or business. Now, the trade and business is lawful to begin with. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, if I start smuggling, I cannot say that this is my fundamental right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is a better example of this, which is an industry that has been nationalized. If they want to establish an industry through cunning, then it is illegal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, apart from that Sir, I am going into a different field now... even those trades which are lawful are subject......... 76 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They have their own moral code. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, under the law, because the law can make any trade legal or illegal. Now, selling of soap or selling of cars or selling sweets, these are lawful trades in our country at the moment. Now, Sir, you know there is a well-known company. Lever Brothers. They sell soap under the label of Lux, one of them Sunlight. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, supposing I start business and call myself because everybody is free to call his business with any name, there is no restriction........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is restriction. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is another law. Under the fundamental rights.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the fundamental rights there is restriction because this law......... the Constitution .. was framed for the honest people of Pakistan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Honest people? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is understood, you know. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. Supposing I say, Sir, I start business and I call myself Lever Brothers and I also produce soap and call it Lux soap, similar label, similar wrapping......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Has there been an example of this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. 78 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if religion, say Christianity, is the monopoly of a certain group, then no other group......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...can have the label of Christianity. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am not insinuating anything, please I am just dealing with the restrictions on fundamental rights that, in principle, these rights are restricted by law. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By rational law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Naturally. Law is supposed to be rational. Until it is declared void by the Constitution or the court....... it is supposed to be rational. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ........it is supposed to be rational. Now, law can impose restrictions on the right of trade, on the rights given in Article 20, that if a person... now I will take.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Lever Brothers has got the monopoly to use that label. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but that is their patent. On that I say......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say but who made it patent? The law? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The law, yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We are supposing the law....... 79 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As far as one's faith is concerned, there is no group which has a monopoly of any faith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I have not come to that yet. I am just on the principle of restriction. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are moving towards that direction on a very narrow and muddy road. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not. I have not gone that far that I may come to it; but it will not be in this form or this shape. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just asking that, on principle, if a person takes advantage of somebody..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are right, you are perfectly right, but these examples, to my mind........ I am very humble; don't claim that I am on the right but, to my mind, they are irrelevant. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are not irrelevant. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are not relevant to the question we are discussing here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, this is for the Committee. I can't say anything. But.......... Mr. Chairman: It is for the Chair to decide whether a question is relevant or irrelevant. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, it is for the Committee. It is not for me or for you to say which is relevant and which is not. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which is certainly not for me. 80 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, not for............ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am a witness here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But this is for the Committee to decide whether this is relevant or not. But all I wanted to know is whether the Legislature can put restrictions on the fundamental rights like this if a person falsely trades in some one's name. Now, Sir, reverting back to freedom of religion under Article 20, it says: "every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion;". Now, will you please tell us the forms of practice......... no, not only Islam; I am not talking of it .......... generally religion, what does it mean and how you profess and how you practise in your mind? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Every religion has beliefs, which result in some forms of worship that Allah Almighty has instructed us to perform. For example, Christians go to church; this is their form of worship, and they do it in a specific way. Instruments are also played, and songs are sung. That is their method. And because Islam is a very beautiful religion, Islam has declared through the words of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him: جُعِلْتِ الْأَرْضُ مَسْجِدًا (The whole earth has been made a mosque for me.) That if a person is so far from a mosque that the time for the Asr prayer would pass if he went to a mosque, he is commanded to pray wherever he is. Christians do not have this facility. They do it their way. A Muslim prays in his own way. The various sects of Muslims have very minor differences... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 81 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is his practice only confined to prayers or is it more than that, are some rituals also involved? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In Islam, there is prayer, fasting, Zakat, Hajj, and the declaration of the Kalma Shahadat, besides Eid. Eid has its own great, deep, profound philosophy. There is no need to go into that. There are two Eids, which come after sacrifices, they have great lessons for us. Besides that, there is the fulfillment of the rights of people. I have not counted, but people say that 700 commandments are found in the Holy Quran. And if their conditions are met, then it is obligatory for a person to abide by all 700 commandments. The common usage of the word 'ritual' that we have, I am learning from you, I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am learning. I ask you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have not read that the word 'ritual' is being used on them, those who are Muslim... it happens on Eids. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, I am saying, I have some Indian authorities in my mind. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There, on Eid, on Bakr Eid, they used to sacrifice cows, and you may have seen those cases. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And there they have made a Prevention of Cows Slaughter Act that they do not slaughter cows. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, what is the religion...? 82 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... is it included in practice or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. These two Eids of ours, our commands are of two types. One that is necessary to do, and one that is permissible to do. Those that are permissible and not necessary, if a law is made against them in any country of the world, then a person does not become a sinner. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Fundamental, from the point of view of Fundamental Rights? It is guaranteed in the Indian Constitution in similar terms more or less. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When the religion has permitted, then how can these fundamental rights of ours oppose it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, they did. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the fundamental rights that are there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Fundamental right says you can practise your religion in all the world. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Religion says that it is not necessary for you to slaughter a cow. There is no clash in this case, in the example you give here. Our religion Islam does not say that a cow must be slaughtered. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now if a person only has a cow on Eid al-Adha and he wants to sacrifice it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And our religion also does not say that every person should give a sacrifice. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he says that I have money and I also have a cow and I... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 83 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If he has been given the money, then he will go and buy a fat ram, a mill... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, and tell me, is this not the freedom of religion? There will be no interference with you if... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where it is permissible, not obligatory, it will not be. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if a butcher says that our freedom of trade has also been affected, that will not happen either? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the butcher says that except for beef... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I sell beef. My... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...I only sell beef and I cannot sell goat meat... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I sell it, this has been my profession since my forefathers... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that profession makes no difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the world of superstitions... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you allow that the state should interfere in these matters? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not interference in the freedom of trade because he can sell meat without any loss. You take it as a profession, which is to sell red meat, you have defined it as... selling beef... 84 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...and I describe it as...selling meat...whether it is of a cow, or a goat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Constitution says: "Any lawful profession or trade." Now this was lawful when the fundamental rights came into existence. Then the law was promulgated. After that ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then it was not lawful after the promulgation of the law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The law as Article 8 our Article 8 says similar the Indian Parallel Article says Corresponding Article. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I this.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The any law which is conflict with......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am a very ignorant man; I don't.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anyway, you.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...understand your argument. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You think this law is correct, there should be no objection to it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where there is justification, it is correct. Where... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 85 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... It is obligatory there, not here. For example, if a law is made that five marriages are necessary. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am coming to that point. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that's absolutely not it, that would be a clash. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if it is not the law, but their religion says so, like the Mormons? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have submitted to you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... that in America among the Mormons, This is not only allowed but... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let them solve their problems; let us solve ours. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, we are concerned with the freedom of religion all over the world. You have got Ahmadis there also, you have to worry about their welfare. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, our Ahmadis who are... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... and the Christians there have no clash... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am saying it generally... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... and neither do other Muslims. 86 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Aug 5th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have relief on Declaration of Human Rights because.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not clash with the Mormons, to my mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, a Mormon says that it is obligatory on me my religion enjoins it that if circumstances permit.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And he also says with it.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Take practice into account. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: -----that my duty is fulfilled if I secretly keep a woman, marry her secretly, hide it from the law, he also says that with it. I have read their books, and this is their practice. Meaning, the Mormons, if they say that.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib!..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... it is necessary to announce the second marriage, then it would clash. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I ask when a man in the states was a 'Railer', he got married twice, bad luck. And he said that 'I belong to Mormon Church and it is obligatory'. He didn't hide the matter. 'It is obligatory and this is part of my religion' and he produced the authority ........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have read their books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ........and the court said: "we send you to jail for five years or 7 years for bigamy, for disrupting our society. We do not accept this much freedom of religion". So, the state could interfere? VEN MORENA SAVUT DELEGATION 87 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The state commits one type of blunder that gentleman commits another type of blunder. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now I take another extreme example, Sir. Supposing a Hindu lady at Noshki or Tharparkar, in Pakistan, says that she want to observe their old Hindu law......... satti........ and wants to burn herself with her dead husband. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I do not know of any such law of satti in Hindu Mazhab (→). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing that we.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But there is no such law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They used to practise this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, how can you give an example? The thing that is still... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does this happen or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But that did not happen according to religion, it happened according to traditions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Hinduism is all traditions. What is their religion? But they call it religion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why don't we........... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, no, you cannot deny that? Give an example of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Right Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just saying, supposing..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we... this supposition has gone very far. 88 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Meeting, 1714 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will ask you questions again then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, ask me... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...so that the position is clarified. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, sir! I will keep answering according to my intellect and understanding. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You stated that anybody has the right to choose his religion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now by 'choose', you mean 'to select one of the religions already existing' or you can found and start a new religion also? Freedom of religion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Within religion, they have also included atheism. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So he can start a new religion also......... a person. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I mentioned atheism, right? They themselves in that Universal Declaration... This freedom that China... I don't quite remember correctly, but Atheism Universal Declaration of Human Right, they have of religion... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, but I say that a new religion could be started by a person? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, there are hundreds of sects in each, there are hundreds of thousands of one schools of... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing somebody starts a new sect in a religion... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, exactly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...he also has the freedom? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely. For example, let me give you an example so that my point becomes clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A person stands up and declares that, for example... I don't want to offend anyone... that the Deobandi religion, for example, has these things, they have kept... 90 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 is, if I abandon this belief and remain Deobandi in other matters, then a new sect is formed. If even one thing is abandoned, then a new sect is formed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am taking........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my opinion, this should be allowed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I have taken the extreme example that supposing a group of Hippies in Pakistan we have got a lot of Hippies these days.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are they human? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Of course, I hope you will not deny them that right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I did, in England, and....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These Hippies? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ....they accepted my version. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These Hippies declare, announce, proclaim, that they are Christians of Hippy sect, and then they further announce........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Have they been punished for this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nobody can punish them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then the question is quite clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I am asking a further question, when I come to their rituals. Supposing they further say that marriage is not an institution with divine sanction. Christ never married. Therefore, all sex relations are...... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 91 permissible, all sorts of them. One declaration. Then they further declare that man was born naked and he has the right to go about naked everywhere. That is the second declaration. Now this is the religion. Thirdly, they say that human sacrifice, ritual feelings is good for human..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is that a problem for Pakistan? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am just asking a proposition that if they declare 'this is our religion and we call ourselves Christian' and they practise is then we have come to practise, they start going about naked in the street. Do you think that the state should interfere? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Subject to morality. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you agree that Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Subject to morality, yes, I agree. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they cannot kill either subject to morality or subject to public order? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you agree that there are restrictions on free of religion? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There are restrictions, and they should be very wisely complied with. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And those restrictions have to be judged by? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By the competent authority. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Competent authority, that is, they will make law and the court will carry out public morality? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By the competent authority. 92 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, by the competent authority. I do not want to ask you further questions because you mean legislature and courts. One will make the law and the other will interpret. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By 'competent authority' I do mean competent authority. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you do not want to define it any further? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I need not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you don't mean ........ Mirza Nasir Almad: It is quite clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So, this freedom of religion is subject to law; the law cannot say that inspite of the fact that a particular group of people........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, let me clarify here. Morality, you see, public morality, we use it in two senses. One in a religious sense, for example, Islam has given us a very detailed code of morality. And the other is the morality that is within human nature, in the very nature of man. God has given it to him, upon which, for example, those nations are also acting who do not even believe in Allah, but within their nature it is that this is morality, this is ethics, we should not abandon them. A prime example of this is China. Chairman Mao Zedong wrote in one place that we should try that the students who graduate from our educational institutions should be fully ethical. So, "they should be ethical" does not mean that according to the ethics that Islam has presented. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 93 If I present ethical people in front of an ethical person, then this which falls even lower than that is a joke, subject to morality. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Subject to morality; but the concept of morality changes from time to time, from area to area and from place to place. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As far as a non-religious type of morality is concerned, you are right. As far as Islam is concerned, the fundamental truths and realities of morality do not change ever. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but if a person does not observe Purdah or goes about semi-naked, do you call it immoral? In some cases, it will not be considered immoral. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why call it immoral? Call it against the laws of Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You call everything against the law of Quran? Not......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I call everything against the law of Quran when we find a law in Quran about it........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but if......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .......not otherwise. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ........a person is a Christian and he says that 'it is my right, I am not a Muslim... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has got every right; you cannot interfere. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He can go about naked? 94 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not naked, without Purdah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why not? If you say the man is born free, man is born naked, why wear clothes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because it is against the rights of other people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Exactly. That means that you can exercise your freedom of religion so long as you do not affect others or deprive others of their rights? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Quite, quite. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Quite. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, if this sect of Hippies who call themselves Christians......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it a fact? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just giving you a ridiculous example. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let me tell you, in 1970 I toured West Africa and Europe. There, they asked me what my opinion was about the hippies? I told them that in my opinion, they do not live a human life. But this does not mean that I hate them or look at them with contempt; I pity them. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 95 and I pray that they begin to understand human values. Our basic thing that Islam has taught us is that a person should first learn human values and act upon them, then the question of spiritual progress arises. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, all these examples were simply meant to show that freedom of religion, as given, is subject to restrictions and it may be by law. All I was submitting was that this freedom of religion is subject to restrictions which could be made by law, imposed by law. That was all I was saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Very carefully and extremely rationally applied. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Rationally. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Naturally, because we presume the law is rational, we presume the courts are working honestly and properly. That presumption is there. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And we hope that those who execute these laws are also very honest and rational. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, rational and honest, that is presumed. Now, Sir, you have seen the Constitution of Pakistan. In the preamble of the Constitution, the title, it is called: The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. That shows what sort of character is aimed at or it has; that will be for anybody to judge. Then, in the Preamble, it is stated, among other things, that: "Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in 96 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug., 1974 in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as laid out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And as they believe. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Naturally; every sect is free. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, every sect is free. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Every sect as they believe. Now, but that shows, you know, that religion is part of the duty imposed on the legislature to see that the Muslims........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That all sects of Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: All sects; I am not excluding anybody, I am not excluding, you need not jump to conclusions that I am excluding you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am sorry. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The point is simple: "Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam". So, that means that the Legislature will see to it that it frames laws which require the Muslims to live their lives in accordance with the requirements of Quran and Sunnah as interpreted by different sects? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, as interpreted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That means there is a duty imposed on the Legislature to make laws in religion matters? That is my first question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We should not generalize. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 97 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just asking that because they have to make laws to see to it that they live their lives in accordance with the injunctions of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What this means is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I won't say that because a law is made by a Sunni, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, ........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .........it should be enforced on a Shia. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no dispute among them. That dispute is in my mind at the moment. What this means is that it is the government's duty that if Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya believes that according to Quranic teachings, offerings should not be made at graves... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not suggesting this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... then it is their duty to see that Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya does not make offerings at graves. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, that's okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I say, but they can make laws? I am only concerned with the principle that Legislature and the Parliament can make laws on this subject. Second thing is, Sir, ........... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the light of the fundamental beliefs........ 98 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN {5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad .......... of every sect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are going, Sir, in detail. But, Sir, I am saying in principle you give this power to the Legislature? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am going into detail so that we do not forget the details tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir, no. You can explain and add to anything which you say in answer to my question. I am not.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: suggesting that. But I am just saying that in principle this is a duty imposed by the Constitution? (Interruption) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This (mic) is perhaps not working. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The other one? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... Or maybe it doesn't want to work, there is no loss here. It's alright, it's alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just submitting that, in principle, the Constitution has imposed a duty on the National Assembly on the Parliament, that they should see to it, by making laws, that the Muslims live their lives in accordance with the injunctions of Quran and Sunnah? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 99 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That Ahmadis live their lives in accordance with their interpretation? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And Wahabis live their lives in accordance with their interpretation? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And Barelvi, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am only asking... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: that the Legislature can do it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: With that detail........... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1 quite agree with it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, the next provision of the Constitution to which I respectfully draw your attention is Article 2 of the Constitution. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It says: "Islam shall be the state religion of Pakistan". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is Preamble. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is Article 2, this not Preamble. 100 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Show me. Is the Constitution here? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Give the Constitution. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Take out Article 2. This is Introduction. Yes.' Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is Article 2. In the Introduction. Very wise. -U Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if you could kindly tell us what are the implications of this; what does it mean? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is quite clear. Islam is the religion of the State. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It means that, in our Constitution, politics and religion are not kept separately, we are not a secular state and that.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know. To my mind, it means that the politics takes on it the responsibility to guard the interests of religion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, exactly, because of the difference......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because something different. And it is not the mixture of the two. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ………………..that, under the American Constitution, it is provided that the state shall not establish any religion or another, it will not side with one sect or another; it will be absolutely neutral in religions matters. But....... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 101 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They also mean that the State will not side with one religion or the other. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but here............. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It only says on the opposite side, you know, that the politics of this country takes upon itself the responsibility to safeguard the interests of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I say. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It does not say that we would not be partial to these who do not believe in Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not saying that. No that is their fundamental rights... No, not in the least, not as far the non-Muslims are concerned ...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That clears the matter now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As far as the Muslims are concerned, it will encourage them to see that they live their lives in accordance with the injunctions of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They say their prayers, they don't drink, they pay their Zakat, things like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, Sir, there is further provision in the Constitution, Article 41 and Article 91 .......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is........... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that requires that the President and the Prime Minister shall be Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is not the fundamental........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, this is part of the Constitution. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Under the heading? 102 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not a directly part but obligatory part. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Obligatory part? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because Preamble is not enforce- able. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But this part....................... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is enforceable? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Enforceable part. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is after the Principles of Policy. Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am going again to give that example. Supposing somebody, a very important man, a very popular man in our country, but not a Muslim, he files a declaration that 'I am a Muslim and I want to contest a election'. Can anybody question that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He could neither be pious nor great. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he is not a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if he files this declaration, how could you call him a pious man and a great man? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but he makes a false declaration. People say, "Well, somehow we made a mistake; we want to 21 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, if he files such on horrid declaration, then he is neither pious nor great. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 103 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just asking. Supposing a person Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A pious man to file a false declaration? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let's take an example neither a Christian nor a Hindu. Supposing a person who does believe in one, or two of the essentials of Islam......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, hmm. like he denies Zakat, is Munkir of Zakat, and he files a declaration that 'I am a Muslim', and still he says he is a Muslim........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And he......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: still says he is a Muslim....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: U, Can he say? A pious Muslim files a declaration and Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not talking of a pious Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am; I am talking about him. And the authority declares that he is not. Just the opposite of what you say; and opposite is also possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just asking whether somebody has a right to declare him one way or the other? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Nobody has got the right to say that he is a Muslim when he feels and thinks......... 104 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But supposing..... [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: and believes that he is not...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing he has done it, has filed a form. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But he is a Muslim, but the authority concerned declares him as non-Muslim, then? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will just give the opposite example, you know. I agree with you, that is possible. He will go to the court tell the court......... -So, there is one way open to him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I say. So, for a person who formally declares that he is a Muslim, when he denies one of the fundamentals of Islam or two fundamentals of Islam, openly denies, and still he says that he is a Muslim... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then the Government should go to the Court. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Government is interested that he should be elected, he is popular, I say. Can anybody go to the Court and say 'no"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well, I personally condemn that Government. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Government I......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know about the others. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Government is not the member of the Assembly we elect; Government is nobody in the Assembly. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 105 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is the members of the Assembly who elect; Government is nobody in the Assembly. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, you used the word 'Government', that is why I repeated that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, because…........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You change the word and I will change that word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you have been saying again and again 'the Government'; I think you meant Legislature. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, whoever is the authority concerned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whichever is the proper authority. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing he thinks he is a popular man, he is a nice man, he is a man of character, his religious beliefs are somehow fair, but he does not believe in Zakat or Jehad or something, but we are not concerned. He says he is not a Muslim, but he openly says, "No, I don't accept Zakat as part of Islam and I don't think it is necessary"... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They should not support him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing they support him, can that be questioned..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes… … it is. (Pause) 106 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... or is his declaration enough under the law? I am speaking of law. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is there a provision in this constitution that when such a thing is suspected, it should be settled by a court or, if it is not there, then who is going to decide? Suppose there is one member of this august House who says that the declaration is false, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Opposition, you know. ...... a member from the Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, a member of the opposition can tell the Chief Election Commissioner when the form is filed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And his word is final? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, his word is final as far as they are concerned. But if this objection is raised by one person that this man is not Muslim, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ………….. .can, on the basis of your argument, the candidate say that 'it is none of your business'? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what is the basis? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why? Declaration is the final word. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the basis of existing law? I must know that before I......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Chief Election Commissioner can see. But the conduct........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it the Election Commissioner? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 107 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: of the President cannot be questioned in the court of law. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it the Election Commissioner who decides.......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: _ in such cases...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. He scrutinizes the form; he has to see to it......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad; that whether he is qualified for Presidentship.......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. And he is to take oath before him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: that he is qualified or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Oath is taken later, but he has to file the form before him that he is a Muslim, because........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Has he got the right to question that oath? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There scrutiny takes place. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no; he takes; has he got the right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I am asking you. Supposing somebody... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I must know the law before I can ......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ……………. answer that question. 108 form NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing some Christian files a Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Chief Election Commissioner can throw it out and say, no, only Muslims can do it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Prime Ministership. for the Presidentship or the Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Supposing a Christian is faithful to himself and does it...? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then he takes the oath before the Election Commissioner Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Election Commissioner has got the right to refuse to take his oath or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not talking of oath yet; that comes after the election. I am at the stage of filing nomination papers. When the nomination papers are filed, the Chief Election Commissioner will look at them. The first thing he is to see is that the papers carried a certificate that a person is 45 years old. If a person is 30 years old, the Chief Election Commissioner will say, "Well, I am sorry, you are not qualified". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because the Constitution says....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, underage. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I say, he is the authority on the spot to say that 'your papers are rejected'. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But can he reject? Can he reject his papers on the assumption that his declaration as a Muslim is incorrect? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that, on the assumption, he cannot do it; but supposing the objection is raised Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who is going to decide? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That Election Commissioner... whether he is a Muslim or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am asking you if somebody objects that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well I am very sorry, I cannot... I find myself just incapable of... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but if you kindly hear for a minute. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...making you understand what I want to know. My question is that I can form... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you kindly listen to my question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...I can form my opinion when I know the law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not talking about the law. The law is... 110 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My opinion would be formed on the knowledge of the law......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you please............. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: and not otherwise. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: let me explain the case again? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Uh, yes, yes. God reward you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, you have said that if a person announces, declares, proclaims, that he is a Muslim, nobody has any right to question his declaration. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Quite. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, if a person files a false form........... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If such a person........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no any person Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, any person- Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the principle. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A person can be a Christian or anybody. That declaration cannot be questioned. Now, supposing a man files his nomination paper for the office of the President of Pakistan and he says he is a Muslim, he writes there and declares that 'I am a Muslim', but some members or voters of Senate or National Assembly know that he denies certain fundamentals of Islam....... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 111 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the knowledge ...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ……………..and they raise…………………… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: is based on facts which they got to know two days ago? There might be a change within these two days. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am coming, I am coming to that; I have to explain the whole case. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, after the nomination papers are filed, the date of scrutiny of paper is fixed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They see he is 45 years old. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They see he declares himself to be Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is otherwise qualified. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Otherwise qualified on the face of it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But objection is raised....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. objection is raised that he says he is a Muslim, but in fact he is not, because he denies certain essentials of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: For instance? 112 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Zakat, for instance. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He says that? (August 5, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "It is not necessary; I don't believe in it." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This institution of Zakat should be abolished? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Abolished or it never existed. "I do not believe in it." I am being very clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is his view. The Chief Election Commissioner asks, "Is it so?" He says, "Yes, Sir, but you are not concerned. You are concerned only with my declaration. I have written I am a Muslim. It is none of your business whether I believe in one tenet or not, or I believe in others or not." What will the Chief Election Commissioner do? Has he the right to interfere or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What will the members of this House do? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Members of the House are not under oath to give evidence, Sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are asking... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are supposed to elect or reject. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, you will guide them. In such circumstances, you will tell us that in the light of your interpretation of Article 20, the Chief Election Commissioner says, "Yes, I will have to accept the declaration on the face of it"? EVASIVE ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have already humbly submitted so many times that these extreme examples, these imaginary examples, cannot solve the problem we are facing today. Let us face facts. You know......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think we will continue after ....... Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Delegation is permitted to withdraw, to be in the House at 6.00 p.m. at 6 o'clock. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: The Special Committee is.......... Do you want to talk? Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani: If you permit me. Mr. Chairman: Yes, please, Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui! EVASIVE ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: I wanted to submit to you that this Honorable Attorney General, whatever questions he asks, he is unable to give a definite answer. In my opinion, you should bind him to give a definite answer. Mr. Chairman: This matter can be taken up with the Attorney General. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: This is within your privilege. Mr. Chairman: No, no. I have to... 114 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: You have the rights for this. Mr. Chairman: Yes? Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: They evade the issue and instead, question the Attorney General. A Member: Sir! It seems like he is cross-examining. Mr. Chairman: No. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: This method of his is wrong. Mr. Chairman: I spoke to him about this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am just leaving. Mr. Chairman: You can be completely satisfied with this. He has got his own A Member: All right, Sir. method. Mr. Chairman: Somewhere there is one portion, somewhere there is another. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Someone can object that you do not agree. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not want to get into this. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Of course. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not right, cannot be hasty. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: But Sir! One thing is certain. Sir, I want to submit this. EVASIVE ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION 115 Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: One thing is clear. It is a fact that we understand the Attorney General's question but we do not understand his answer. Mr. Chairman: The Special Committee is adjourned to meet at 6.00 p.m. In the meantime, the honourable members can discuss the questions, or methods of putting them, with the Attorney-General. Thank you very much. A Member: In your Chamber, Sir? (The Special Committee adjourned to meet at 6.00 p.m.) [The Special Committee re-assembled after the break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: A suggestion, Mr. Attorney-General, from certain members, that certain questions put by you, the witness avoids to answer, and there is a suggestion that a second question may be put. When a definite answer is to be given by the witness, yes or no, he say 'I don't want to give'. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I said in the beginning that we can't compel the witness. And the House can draw its own inference that he is avoiding the answer to the question and, if he gives the answer, probably that will be not favorable to him. So, this is for the Court, as they say, to decide. Mr. Chairman: No, not yet. Call them here, seat them over there. (Interruption) 116 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Yes, they may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, before I proceed, my attention has been drawn by some members. For some further clarification on the question of the number of Ahmadis in Pakistan. In a Memorandum signed on behalf of the Ahmadiyya Community before the Boundary Commission in 1947, the figure given is about two lakhs. This is an official document. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Do you have this document? Please give it to me. Half a million. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Half a million in the whole of India, including Pakistan, at that time, because it was done before that. Now, you said this morning that, at the time of the death of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the number of Ahmadis, in 1908, was about 4 lakhs. Now, in the course of these 30 years or so, has the number gone down to such extent, or was this an incorrect figure? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I didn't give any number with certainty... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Approximately? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... I didn't say with certainty. And since there was no census, where... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 117 As far as I remember, I once clearly stated that all estimates were made at different times. Didn't you also give an estimate of two lakhs? Similarly, a political party wrote in 1920 that a certain party won because 2.1 million adult volunteers were helping them. So, if there are 2.1 million adult Ahmadi volunteers, then the number of Ahmadis should be one crore. So these figures are, first of all, only uncertain, without statistics. Secondly, nothing is gained from this. If… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: … Even if injustice is done to five people, it is as bad as… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, even if injustice is done to one person, it is illegitimate. I am not saying this. I only wanted that we are preparing a record and we could have......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, that… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .........on exact and approximate idea of the number of Ahmadis in Pakistan. So, which figure you think is correct? The figure given by the Jamaat-i-Ahmadia ......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I, I… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....in 1947 ......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have submitted that in my opinion, nowadays there are between 3.5 to 4 million Ahmadis in Pakistan, including children, adults, men and women. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And in 1947, according to your Jamaat, there were two lakhs, all... 118 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Two and a half Lakh in India. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there were five Lakh in India, but I think, when we left India, everyone in 1947, then about 40-50 thousand would have remained there, because this number was collective. In the district of Gurdaspur, only in this district they were in Lakhs. And alongside was the district of Hoshiarpur. And on this side were the areas of Ferozepur and behind it the areas of Ludhiana, and here there was a very large number of members of the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, in 1900-1901, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if you compare Junagarh then... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is a different question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... and you will not reach any conclusion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking a different question now. In 1901, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had requested the Government to mention the Ahmadis separately in the census. Then they have been mentioned in 1901, 1911, 1921 and 1931. I understand, up to that........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And in no census the figures were correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that may not be correct, Sir, ......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...but I want to know why this practice was given up after 1931? Why are not they separately mentioned? Have you requested them or the Government itself did that? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 119 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As far as I know, no, we have not requested anybody to alter it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not to mention it separately? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it has not been acted upon before either. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Sir, one more clarification. You had stated this morning that your followers call you Imam of the Jamaat, but actually your designation is that of Khalifa-tul- Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Masih-us-Salis. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Masih-us-Sani (The Second Messiah)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Third. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Third? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, this word "Imam", could you kindly explain its significance as to in which sense they call you Imam? What is the idea, significance? Because, you know..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have never told anyone to call me Imam, nor have I told anyone to call me Ameer-ul-Momineen (Leader of the Believers). And this Imam of the Ahmadiyya Jamaat, it is generally not used in our Jamaat in Pakistan, foreign countries do use it, but in Pakistan, what is used to some extent is "Ameer-ul-Momineen," and regarding that, I have already stated that Ameer-ul-Momineen refers to those who are Mubah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, may I remind you that the day you came to address this House, you corrected the Chairman and told him that you are Imam of the Jamaat? 120 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said this, I remember, I said do not call me President, President Anjuman Ahmadiyya because I am not President, President Anjuman Ahmadiyya. Instead, call me Imam of Jamaat Ahmadiyya. At that time, I had Head of the Community in my mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just want to clarify, yes, no, what........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely I said, I remember myself very well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you know what the significance of the word 'Imam' is among Muslims generally and among Shia Muslims particularly? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I know that the meaning of Imam in the Shia sect is not in any other sect, not in a faction. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you don't use that in that sense? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh, no, certainly not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, the next point which I wanted to know this morning, which I didn't ask, can you, as Head or Khalifa or Imam of your Jamaat, resign your office or you are not allowed? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, when God Almighty - according to our belief, this thing is received from Allah Almighty, then this is not allowed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are not allowed to resign? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 121 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, before we adjourned this morning, I was asking you a certain question with regard to the office of the President, and I asked you that supposing a person... because Article 41 says that he shall be a Muslim then I asked you supposing a person applies or his name is proposed as a candidate for the office of President of Pakistan and therein his declaration is filed that 'I am a Muslim, of age over 45', whatever it may be, 50 or 60, and somebody objects at the time of the scrutiny of nomination papers that he is not a Muslim because he does not believe in one of the essentials of Islam, he does not believe, for instance, that Zakat is a compulsory or necessary part of Islam. Now, I ask you whether the Election Commissioner has a right, will he be justified to return, to refuse his nomination paper, reject it, or just because he has declared that he is a Muslim that should be sufficient? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The Election Commissioners should follow the laws that Pakistan has made for them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you, Mirza Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I have no involvement in this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Supposing that the man says himself when he is asked: "Is it true that you don't accept Zakat as necessary part of Islam and one of the essentials?", he says: "Yes, I do not believe, I do not think it is a part of Islam, but I am still a Muslim". Now, at this stage I only ask whether the Election Commissioner, Chief Election Commissioner can reject his nomination papers? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It would be a very bad thing if I give such advice that the law does not allow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if a law is made on this matter, then it will be good for everyone. 122 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Yes? The law... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If this law, which states that a Muslim is one who believes in the five pillars... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...at least believes in those... whether he acts upon them or not... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you think that, in the country, the State has the right to make the law to lay down what is a Muslim because the Constitution requires that the President has to be a Muslim, the Prime Minister has to be a Muslim? Or other way......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is my opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .or in other way I can put it that way .......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is my opinion that no Islamic government should make such a law that is not in accordance with the instructions of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if they make it in accordance with the Injunctions of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it is in accordance with the instructions of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), then every Muslim accepts it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that means that they can make a law laying down what a Muslim is or who is not a Muslim in a negative form or in a positive form, and then the Election Commissioner, in the light of that law, can reject the nomination paper? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 123 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if it is in accordance with the instructions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and is the law, because the instructions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) do not bind the Election Commissioner in the same way as the law binds him. And if it is the law, then he should abide by the law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So can such a law be made and should it be made? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "I am not saying that it can be made..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...I say that if there is a law, it should be followed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if there is no law, then he cannot interfere? Then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If there is no law, then he cannot interfere. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. Sir, while referring to the Declaration of Human Rights, you have not relied on any Article of the Declaration of Human Rights, but only on the opinion of one of the draftsmen. Isn't it so? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I didn't understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Annexure-I is the opinion of Dr. Charles Malik of Lebanon. It is not any Article of... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this in our statement? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you have filed the Annexure. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Its clause.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Appendix. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...is 18, please note that. 124 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so? Have you seen other provisions also? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is Article 29? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I don't remember. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, then I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am telling you, whether you have seen it or not, this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have seen many pamphlets, seen one or two books, but the thing in which I am not interested, my memory does not remember it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Probably. But, Sir, just like, no: our Constitution says that you have the freedom of religion subject to law, Public order and morality, Article 29 places similar restriction........ similar........ I don't say exactly the same....... on the Human Rights that they also have to be subject to some sort of restriction. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, then what I understand is that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights started in 1948, and this is just a matter of principle with which all the countries that are included in the UNO have agreed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir I am not disputing that. I am just saying that that Right is also not absolute but subject to restrictions. MIRZA NASIR AHMED: It will be. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Yes. This is all? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: But no, I want to say something more than that, that after this a very big department was established and the services of great experts were acquired. A lot of money is being spent on it, and they have started to draw its Covenants by taking each Human Right. And since these people are not so interested in religion, therefore Freedom of speech and others that were there, some Covenants have been made on some points, and there is nothing else. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: No, I am reading what you have filed. MIRZA NASIR AHMED: Yes sir. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: The philosophy of the Bill of Rights was put into enduring words by an Arab scholar and philosopher, Dr. Charles Malik of Lebanon. Dr. Malik, who was a member of the Commission on Human Rights of the United Nations, helped draft a Declaration of Human Rights for the United Nations. Dr. Malik stated what he deemed to be fundamental principles of civil rights: 1. The human person is more important than the racial, national, or other group to which he may belongs. 2. The human person most sacred and inviolable possessions are his mind and his conscience, enabling him to perceive the truth, to choose freely, and to exist;" Now, Sir, I would respectfully ask you that ........ MIRZA NASIR AHMED: That Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which we have referred is section 18. 126 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. But I am asking here that you have on this Has any motion or resolution before the House rely suggested even in the most remotest way that anybody will not be allowed ........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is just one person's opinion, which has some importance only to say that that a person's heart and mind... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has anyone suggested that you do not have the freedom to think that you have not the freedom of thought or mind or conscience or the way you seek the truth. Nobody has suggested it anywhere. On the contrary, the Resolution which has come before the House....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I now understood the point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: guarantees that ........Yes, you will have your human rights and fundamental rights,......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: right to practise and profess and ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now I understand the point, I didn't understand it before. The thing is that two resolutions have been presented here... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is a motion and a resolution. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is a motion, there is a resolution. Is the resolution from the People's Party side or from the government side? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 127 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The resolution is not from the government, it is a motion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is a motion, the motion is from the government. I wanted this clarification. As far as the words in the motion are concerned, you are absolutely right. But the responsible people of the ruling party who have made speeches after that do not agree with it, and because of this, a very simple thing... combining both... so we have talked about it in our statement. If those speeches had not been made by the responsible people of the government, then there was no need for it, then both would have to be separated. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I was submitting that it is written here that: "The human person's most sacred and inviolable possessions are his mind and his conscience." Are they going to be affected in any way, as far as your community is concerned, by any motion or resolution, in enabling you to perceive the truth, to choose freely, and to exist? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When it was announced that they would make a decision about Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, which would be this and that, as a result of those announcements, this thing had to be presented here in this form, otherwise there was no need. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the announcement was at most that Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya should be declared a non-Muslim minority. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, if you are declared, to put it very bluntly... 128 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Aug 5th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: a non-Muslim minority,....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: will they stop you from considering Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet or as your hero or your leader, or stop you from prayers, or stop you even from thinking, believing, that you are a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Or propagating? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, nobody can stop you from propagating either. You can say whatever your faith is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: what purpose would it serve you? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, that is, I say, that why should you object to it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, what purpose would it serve you to declare us as a non-Muslim minority? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want to know your point of view; and I will explain my point of view or the point of view of those who want me to explain their point of view. But I am just at the moment asking you. How is it going to affect you? Because, as far as your fundamental rights of religion are concerned, they will be protected. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, this is the impact on us that our Pakistani citizen brothers will be greatly stigmatized that such a resolution can also be passed in this country. If we love our country… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, but there are Parsis, there are Christians and they are also patriotic Pakistanis. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It's just that their honor has been attacked? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, any citizen can come and say that it should not be done. That is a different right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This, this is your.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Shouldn't you love something? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't understand what you want to ask. Then the question was asked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I only asked that you mentioned the Declaration of Human Rights and the rest about religious freedom. The question does not even arise. How can the question arise? Nobody is going to violate your right to profess any religion, to practice any religion, to feel what you like, to have any faith you want; that is not....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now there is material thinking. I say that no one has the right to call me a non-Muslim. 130 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is different. But I am just saying that your religion will not be affected because nobody is going to stop you from......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But my religion is affected; and if my religious feelings and passions are affected, my religion is affected. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have not clarified as to how? Because you will be allowed to say your prayers, you will be allowed to call whatever name you want, by the name of Ahmadi or whatever you like. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We are attributed to A'an Muslim. And it has been claimed that take their mosques and their so and so... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not............. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... take it and take so and so. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, once you are declared a minority, your rights are protected, Mirza Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, U, U - Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you are not declared a minority, then I am not sure if your rights will be protected. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then we don't want our rights to be protected. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is up to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I go to your main point when you said that if you proclaim that you are a Muslim, CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 131 everybody should consider that you are a Muslim and treat you as a Muslim without questioning your proclamation. And then you further say in your address...... which I mentioned before...... of 21st June, that: "God Almighty will demonstrate through his designs who is a believer and who is a disbeliever." Now, Sir, if, in spite of the fact that you declare and proclaim that you are a Muslim, and still I announce or anybody announces that you are not a Muslim, will that be interfering with your fundamental rights. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question here is not whether Zaid calls Bakr a Muslim or not. The question is, does the government have the right to declare someone a non-Muslim in worldly terms, in political terms, and make an announcement about it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if, if... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are giving the example of Zaid and Bakr. The matter of Zaid and Bakr, we explain it to them with so much love that they, they, we have no quarrel with anyone... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, supposing somebody says that you are not a Muslim...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...if someone says that, you will not mind that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, we will not be angry at all, I am saying more than 'mind'. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But if the law says or the Legislature says that, then you consider it as interference with your rights? 132 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if the government interferes in this matter, then we believe that the government does not have this right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the right which you claim for yourself, do you concede the same right to others also? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To everybody else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. They could also ......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, here I will clarify that we have thought a lot about this, meaning that this is our job, isn't it... By 'our' I mean all of us who are sitting here, that for a long time, decrees of disbelief (Kufr) have been issued by religious scholars against each other, so we thought a lot that there should be some sense in it which has some justification. So, we came to the conclusion that these fatwas mean that, according to them, the beliefs or actions of those against whom the fatwa of disbelief has been issued are not pleasing to Allah and they will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment. In our opinion, these fatwas do not mean more than this. And politically, no one has the right, in the light of these three hadiths that are in the memorandum, politically no government has the right to declare any sect as a Kafir (disbeliever), because if the foundation of declaring someone a Kafir is based on the fatwas of sects, then a small sample of it has been presented in our memorandum. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not talking about sects here. If it is said on the basis of Islam that whoever denies the essentials of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There are five pillars. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is correct, I said. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 133 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then you said that you extend the same right and concede the same right to other which you claim for yourself; and, of course, the same courtesy....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The same courtesy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: courtesy which you expect from them. Sir, you said in your speech that when you say that you are a Muslim, then Mr. Bhutto or Mufti Mahmood or Maulana Maudoodi ...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here, let me clarify one thing. When I said Mr. Bhutto, I meant a member of the People's Party, not the Prime Minister. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, it doesn't matter. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it does matter. It needs explanation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I leave Mr. Bhutto. I just say Mufti Mahmood, he has no right to say that you are not a Muslim. Similarly, you have no......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have got no right to say that Mufti Mahmood is a non-Muslim in this sense, in this sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have no right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In other sense? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only Allah knows that. Our founder has written about it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if they say that you are not a Muslim in same other sense? 134 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In other sense, yes, they do say it. No, they do say it, and it makes no difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but we should be clear about the sense. In which sense you say that they should call you a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our opinion, their beliefs, as I have mentioned some beliefs in my affidavit, or some actions that are, as we understand Islam, are not pleasing to God Almighty in our view. There is nothing more to it. The rest is how God Almighty deals with them. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. The Holy Quran says that He can forgive everyone if He wills. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A human being, a helpless human being has no right to say that God Almighty will surely... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Something in emotions In emotions, in the heat of the election, some Maulana called the other an infidel. came. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, no, no. From previous centuries. The heat of the election has come now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let us see on the basis of the principle. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Since Pakistan was formed, we have been making noise that elections are not being held at all. So the noise of the election was also suppressed. For the first time in 1960, they say, for the first time the fervor of the election came out. These are centuries-old fatwas that we have mentioned. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 135 remained? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it your opinion that they are thought out? Were these not given in excitement? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It doesn't mean anything other than that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying those Fatwas are against you. The ones you give amongst yourselves. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Amongst themselves, of their own, I am also talking to them, that it is their belief that these are things which are not liked by Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the Ahmadi Community believes that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a Prophet of God? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was he a Nabi? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Ahmadiyya Community does not believe that. The Ahmadiyya Community believes that he was Ummati Nabi, and there is a lot of difference between the two. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is fact that you will clarify, But....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, you just said, don't call me by the name of Nabi alone. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: First I said 'Prophet,' ... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ummati Nabi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: and then I said Nabi...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ummati Nabi. 136 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: and you qualified it as "Ummati Nabi". Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Ummati Nabi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, will you clarify and define "Ummati Nabi"? How is he different from a real Nabi or Nabi? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "Ummati Nabi" means that a person who is spending his religious life in the love of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) will be called an Ummati, the Holy Quran says: "If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you." So, the meaning of Ummati is a follower. And there is a difference in following. Our belief is that the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement was a complete follower of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and our belief is that no spiritual blessing and grace can be attained without following the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). But before Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) there is a big difference in the numbers, one hundred and twenty-four thousand prophets came. Some say something. There is no point in getting into this dispute. Anyway, thousands and thousands of prophets came, and nowhere in religious literature, in the Bible and the Gospels, and in other religious books, do we see that, for example, the prophets of the children of Israel reached the station of prophethood as a result of the sacred power and spiritual benefit of Moses (peace be upon him), I don't know of any such instance, and I don't think there is any, therefore we come to the conclusion that it was not the station of Moses (peace be upon him) or any other Sharia prophet that their perfect following, this kind of love, could attain the love of Allah Almighty. This unique revolutionary new thing has happened only after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the history of human religions that now no person can attain any kind of spiritual status, meaning that even a good, virtuous person cannot become... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 137 unless he follows the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And not be from his Ummah? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, and the Ummah is not from the Ummah. And the meanings of Ummah are, "nothing of one's own; whatever there is, has been acquired from Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What definition would you give of "Ummah" in this sense? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I can give the definition of "Ummah" in this sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Muhammadan, the Muhammadan Ummah? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. In the meanings of "Ummah" is one who follows the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And the meanings of "Ummah" will be that group in which crores or people were born in the last fourteen hundred years who were followers of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and among them were millions who, with utmost devotion and effort, followed the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and tried to follow his example, and as a result, they became saints, abdal, qutb, and lamps of religion. So now, whatever is obtained spiritually after the Holy Prophet, it is only obtained if a person colors his life with the color of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can a prophet also have his own Ummah? Or will he be in this Ummah? Can he have his own Ummat? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Separate? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... There is only one Ummah, and that is the Muhammadan Ummah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can't the Ahmadiyya become a separate Ummah? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It cannot be. I mean, even if someone used the word, the Ahmadiyya... 138 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Usage? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. I am just asking for clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because the word has been used. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's why I did it. So it didn't happen in that sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Please tell me, what is the difference between a Sharia Prophet and a non-Sharia Prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A Sharia Prophet is one upon whom Allah Almighty's Sharia is revealed. And a non-Sharia Prophet is one who acts upon the Sharia of a previous Sharia Prophet. As the Quran says about the prophets of Israel: يحكُمُ بِهَنَّبيِّون الَّذِينَ اسْلَمُو للذين بها دو That such prophets kept coming in the children of Israel and history tells us that they were in the thousands. Who used to enforce the Sharia of Moses (peace be upon him) on the people, their own, they had no Sharia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But he can't give his own laws? He didn't have his own law? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is no Sharia of his own. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He will interpret the same... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he will interpret the whole except for a small difference. That is a subtle difference. There is no need to bring it here. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 139 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Sir, do you know that Muslims generally, belonging to various schools of thought, do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet, Ummati or of any other kind? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they believe that there could be no Prophet of Allah after Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who, who? What do you mean by "they"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean not you but the rest of the Muslims, or........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: generally, may be somebody, generally. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, great elders from our righteous predecessors, are there who have solved this issue. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you of generally the Muslims, generally. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Today? Today? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Today, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning who were the previous righteous predecessors... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not …………….. 140 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad ... Our elders, we don't talk about them? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: At this time? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The issue today. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay, okay. No, I just wanted clarification. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it a fact, Sir, that your community the leader of your community or your followers refer to those who do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Nabi of some sort, as not Muslims, or Kafirs? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the meaning of Kufr? This is an Arabic word, isn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said 'not Muslims'; that's why I put it simply. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: First I put that way you can explain that the Kufr has Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, no. I heard your question and am answering it. The literal meaning of Kafir is denier. One who does not believe in the founder of the Jama'at, if we say that he is a denier, then also we are to blame, and if we say that he believes, then also we are to blame. They are deniers of the founder of the Jama'at, therefore they are deniers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, according to you, they are not Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are deniers. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 141 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, they do not deny the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if a Muslim does not believe in any of those sent by Allah, he becomes a denier, he is no longer a Muslim, is that correct or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is accountable to God Almighty. But I have already stated that from a worldly point of view, according to the political definition of a Muslim, he is not a Kafir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not talking about the political definition, I am talking about the definition of your group. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: According to us, the political definition of a Muslim applies to the members of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya in the same way as it applies to the members of other sects. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now, you said that Mufti Mahmood has no right to say that you are not a Muslim…………... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I have also said that I have got no right to call him a....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: www. --but you have in your...... I mean when I say 'you', I do not mean particularly you,....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: but leaders of Ahmadiyya Jamaat have called Muslims who do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Nabi, as Kafir, as not Muslims, or pucca Kafir, I mean, to put it strongly ...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......no doubt. Isn't it so? 142 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I just said that we use the word "Kafir" (infidel) in two senses, and have been doing so for centuries. One meaning of "Kafir" is accountable to Allah Almighty. And that is not about this world, that is about the other world. And in that sense, every sect calls the other an even more staunch "Kafir" than a staunch "Kafir". It is in some affidavits. And if you are interested, we can show you other books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have seen that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And one meaning of "Kafir" is political, or of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which pertains to this world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am asking a simple question. If you claim a right for yourself that if you declare that you are a Muslim, Mufti Mahmood has no business to call you that you are not. Similarly, do you give this right to Mufti Mahmood that if you call him not Muslim or Kafir, he has also a right to call you Kafir and not Muslim? I am asking you this...... whatever may be the form. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I will have to reveal the form, otherwise the meaning will be wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then we are going to………….. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am saying that just as it is my right to say that people of such and such sect offer vows and offerings at the grave, which is not pleasing to Allah Almighty. Similarly, it is also the right of that sect to say that the Ahmadiyya community does this and this, and it is not pleasing to Allah Almighty, and in that sense, they are "Kafir". They have this right. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 143 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, in your address ..... now I am changing a little bit, going to a different subject, so that I can come back to the same subject again, and clarify the position..... In your Annexure XI, which is called "Azeem Roohani Tajjaliyat ( عظیم روحانی تجلیات ) Zamima ( ضمیمہ ) No. XI and Inasaniyat (انسانیت) in that you stated, while praising the status of human being in Islam, in that learned discourse you said: "It has brought everyone to the same level in terms of emotions, and that is a great thing. That is why great instructions have been given while talking. Sometimes we are very careless and make such jokes with our brother that are hurtful to him; it is forbidden to do so. This becomes a cause of Allah Almighty's displeasure. So, how great a favor has been done to man by taking so much care of his feelings." Now, what you stated just now, Sir, that I call them infidels, is that not hit by your own teachings? Do you not hurt their feelings? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, because where the question of the status of humanity arises, Muslims and Hindus and Christians and the planets: Say, "I am only a man like you." The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) brought them to one place by saying this. And religious beliefs are not under discussion there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mr. Mirza, sometimes there is a small discussion... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? 144 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just as an example, you said that day, "I am the Imam of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya." Then a letter came from you to the Assembly that Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You addressed the Head of the Community should be addressed as Imam of the Jamaat. But, in your address, do you show the same courtesy? You know Maulana Maudoodi is respected by his own people as Maulana, by his own Admirers. May be I don't think he is a learned man; may be you don't think... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, not this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... But let's show courtesy to call him 'Mr. Maudoodi' you expect to be called Imam. Now, these are the things which require clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Huh no, where is it said? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Appendix Number 2. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No. (To a member of his delegation) Take out Appendix Number 2. Which page is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think page 12. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Above Page 12? Yes, this is it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just who you the exact... You say, Sir: "In other words....... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I have seen this. What I could not understand is that if Bhutto Sahib is called Mr. Bhutto, it is not disrespectful to him. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 145 Is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It does not happen. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But if Mr. Maudoodi is called Mr. Maudoodi, then he is insulted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will tell you the reason. Member of Jamaat-i-Islami or other admirers of Maulana Maudoodi call him 'Maulana Maudoodi'. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Or Pir Maudoodi! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, nobody calls him 'Pir Maudoodi'. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Slogans are raised: "Pir Maudoodi Zindabad." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, normally on his writing now, Sir, in one of your annexures No. VI is written: 'Maulana Abul Ata'. Now, I will call him 'Abul Ata' because that is the way he is addressed. He is a learned man. Similarly, Maulana's writings show that he is a Maulana by his own Jamaat and by his admirers. Mufti Mahmood, he is a qualified Mufti and he is addressed as such. But to belittle someone and say that, perhaps, you don't think Maulana Maudoodi is a learned man, according to you, he is not Maulana...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it is this thing... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: but, at the same time, you expect... 146 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I couldn't understand that at this place, five words before, disrespect is not apparent to Mr. Bhutto, but disrespect becomes apparent to Mr. Maudoodi. I could not understand this, meaning that he should also be called Maulana and every time he says Maulana. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was just saying that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But it doesn't hold any aspect of disrespect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't mean any Tehqeer, but you see, if you say: 'Mr. Bhutto, Mr. Mufti (تحقیر) Mr. Maudoodi', one can understand; you put them in the same category. You say: 'Mr. Bhutto, Mufti Mahmood, Mr. Maudoodi', Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning my mistake. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I don't mind your saying...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are entitled to say that, but...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am not entitled. Here the question, I understand that then it happened that I ..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: out of respect, his followers' feelings are hurt. You say nobody's feeling should be hurt. That is your lesson, and I appreciate....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this isn't my lesson, but rather it is my firm belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Your belief. But you............ CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 147 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we have found a very powerful weapon in this throughout the world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have said this to your followers that 'you should not hurt anybody's feelings'. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have to win humanity; that is how we should win the hearts of humanity for Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's why I say....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then we should be very courteous. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I say, Sir, that you demand courtesy for yourself and do not want to extend it to others? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I do not demand any courtesy from you or anybody else. Otherwise, it would mean that I do not believe in this verse: "Indeed, all honor belongs to Allah." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then neither am I. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not suggesting that Maulana Maudoodi ...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But I don't...I don't demand any courtesy for myself......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not you. But....... 148 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: but I must pay courtesy to all others. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is very nice, Sir, but your jamaat, if you don't personally, Maulana Maudoodi has not suggested, you would........ Mr. Chairman: I would suggest to the Attorney-General and the Witness that definite questions should be put instead of this Munazara (Debate). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am sorry. I put the next. I was, Sir, dealing with the question of rights. If you claim a right, you concede the same right to others; if you claim courtesy because…....... Mr. Chairman: A definite question may be put....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. The Witness demands that he should be called "Imam of....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not out of I did not want any courtesy. I just corrected because there is another person who occupies the chair as Sadar Sadar Anjuman-e- Ahmadiyya. I wanted to correct that. I would be so happy if you didn't even call me 'Mr.', that there would be no limit. Mirza Nasir Ahmad is my name, you can just call me Nasir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I was asking you some question whether you call those Muslims who do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet when I say 'Prophet', I mean in the sense of Ummati Nabi... I am Mirza Nasir Ahmad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: as Kafir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As one who doesn't accept him as Ummati Nabi..... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 149 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Have you also referred to them Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are outside the circle of Islam, are excluded. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What does that mean? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have already done that, I regret it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, but... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It's my fault, I couldn't explain it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If anybody has said that ...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Also outside the circle of Islam, that is used in the sense of infidelity, in two senses. One, in the eyes of Allah, which He has to decide, no human has the right to decide. And one here, in political terms, no one is outside the circle of Islam in political terms. Anyone who calls himself a Muslim, whether Deobandi, or Barelvi, or other sects, none of them are outside the circle of Islam. If we do not make this political definition, then Muslim unity is impossible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So there are two types of Muslims. Political and non-political? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is the definition of a political Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "This is the definition of a political Muslim that we have given. (To a member of his delegation) Where is that? Take it out. These three hadiths of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). This political Muslim is defining it very well. Let me read the translation to each other. Or should I read both Arabic and translation? This is the translation. Time 09 150 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 They protect themselves. It is mentioned in the Hadith: "O Muhammad (peace be upon him), inform me about Islam." The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "Islam is that you bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is His Messenger. Also, that you establish prayer, pay Zakat, and fast in Ramadan, and if you have the means, perform Hajj to the House of Allah." The person said, "You have spoken the truth." The narrator says that we were surprised that he also asks the question and also confirms the answer. Then the person asked, "Inform me about faith." The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "Faith is that you believe in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers." The person said, "You have spoken the truth." Later, the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "It was Gabriel (peace be upon him) who came to teach you Islam." The translation of the second Hadith is: A person from the people of Najd, with disheveled hair, came to the Prophet (peace be upon him). We used to hear the murmur of his voice, but we did not understand his words, until that person got closer, then it became known that he was asking the Prophet about Islam. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said that there are five prayers prescribed during the day and night. He said, "Are there any other prayers besides these five?" The Prophet said, "No, except if you want to offer them voluntarily." The Prophet then said, "Fast in Ramadan." He asked, "Are there any other fasts obligatory besides the fasts of Ramadan?" The Prophet said, "No, except if you want to keep them voluntarily." Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) mentioned Zakat to him. He said to him CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 151 Is there anything else besides this? The Prophet said no, except that you may weep more as a supererogatory act. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is the definition of political Muslim or Muslims as such? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is also the same third Hadith. It becomes evident from that, all of this: The summary of the council got up and started walking away, saying, "By God, I will neither increase nor decrease in these commands." The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "If he proves truthful in his statement, then he will surely succeed." The third Hadith is from Bukhari. That is also this: "Whoever offers prayer like us and faces our Qibla." "And eats our sacrifice, that is the Muslim." "For whom is the responsibility of Allah and His Messenger." "So do not betray Allah in His responsibility." The person who offers the prayer that we offer, faces the Qibla that we face, and eats our slaughtered animal, is a Muslim for whom is the responsibility of Allah and His Messenger. So, do not be treacherous with him in the responsibility given by Allah. This is a political definition. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, recently, in England, when this Rabwah incident took place in Pakistan, on the 2nd June, the Ahmadiyya Community in England at Blackburn, on the 2nd of June, passed a Resolution. You may have seen it. 152 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am not aware of this. I said I have not seen it. I am learning about it for the first time. It should have been “Non-Ahmadi Pakistani Muslim” here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am saying that you are referring to Muslims generally -as not Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, your Community does not consider it One of my questions which you will clarify kindly.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, give me a copy of it. ....... Mr. Chairman: The copy may be handed over and may be replied to by tomorrow. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 153 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This has appeared in the newspapers. You can verify it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, so many wrong things have appeared in the newspapers that how many would you have corrected? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I shall verify………... U- Mr. Chairman: I think, I think ....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We will meet after Prayers? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Before the Delegation leaves, the Chair needs one clarification. The question was put but the answer has not yet been clear. So, I will repeat the question and put it to the Witness: Is it a fact that the word 'Kafir', as understood by the Common Muslims not by Ulema means a man who is not a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is it? I didn't understand. Mr. Chairman: Is it a fact that the word 'Kafir' as understood by a Common Muslim....... not by Ulema... means a man who is not a Muslim? Only the clarification on this point. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ahmadi Muslim? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Ordinarily, a common man, Sir, when you say so and so is Kafir.,....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: what is his understanding? He understands that he is not a Muslim? 154 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974. Mr. Chairman: Is it a fact that 'he is not a Muslim' is understood as such? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Chairman wanted clarification. Mr. Chairman: It needs clarification because this point has not been clarified. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How can I provide that clarification that a "common man" is pointing towards? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will ask further questions. Mr. Chairman: Yes, this question remains pending. The witness can reply any time. The Delegation is allowed to withdraw; and upto 8.00 p.m. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 8.00 p.m.? Mr. Chairman: 8.00 p.m., after Mughrib Prayers. Thank you very much. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You want me, Sir, to (Interruption) 8 o'clock. If you want me to clarify some position and some point, you know, because I don't want to…………….. Mr. Chairman: Yes, the witness can take any time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We are here to clarify the position. Mr. Chairman: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. Mr. Chairman: The honourable members may keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: The Special Committee is adjourned to meet at 8.00 p.m., for Maghreb Prayers. The Special Committee adjourned for Maghreb Prayers to meet at 8.00 p.m. The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghreb Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. Mr. Chairman: Should we call them? They may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I need a clarification regarding this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The name of the newspaper in which this was published is not on it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I received it directly that this resolution was passed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, but was it not published in any newspaper? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have been told that it was published in a newspaper, but I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, meaning this is not known. I was asking because... 156 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will try to find out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I will send it to them. Regarding that Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please ask your party Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What resolution was passed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, before we adjourned, you were explaining the meaning of 'Kafir', and you said that when you referred to Muslim and Kafir, you mean in political sense. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Also, We also mean in political sense, and in other sense also. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In both the senses. And one sense is political sense means that he says within the pale of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it has its own circle of Islam. A man lives within it in the political definition. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And he doesn't live in the other definition? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And in the other definition, it has its own circle. And it is related to Allah Almighty, not to this world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you, Sir, because so much has been said in our society about the word 'Kafir' and you, being learned, have your own interpretation, so we want the position to be clarified that when you say that so and so is 'Kafir' or any member of your community says so, what is the impression it given to the ordinary Muslims, ordinary CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 157 followers of yours or ordinary public? That he is outside the pale of Islam? Or he still remains in the fold of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, as far as my memory serves me, I have not even used this word during my time as Caliph. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying in your example. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It did not happen in nine years. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying in your time, I said about your community, if your father from the Ahmadiyya community had done it, assuming he had. He was also the Head of Ahmadiyya Community. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if he did it sometime before 1958. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am just asking, Sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Your father was also Imam before you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He was Khalifa-tul-Masih-us-Sani. Now I will not use the word Imam, there will be unnecessary noise. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no I am just saying because Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, okay, yes. it was just your-..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, supposing Mirza Bashir-ud- Din Mohamud Ahmad as Khalifa-e-Sani Ahmadiyya........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When we use ... 158 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .....even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the founder...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......of Ahmadiyya Movement...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It means nothing more than that, in our view, some of his actions are not pleasing to Allah Almighty.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, they still remain Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are accountable to Allah Almighty. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but do they still remain Muslims or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If, apart from the five pillars of Islam, the rest of the teachings and Quranic commandments are abandoned, or even if one does not act upon these five, one remains a Muslim, as is our common parlance. I am not objecting to anyone; I am telling a fact. Then they remain Muslims in one sense, and not in another. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am sorry, I have not explained my position. Now I could be a *Gunahgar* (sinner): After all, I am a sinner, not an infidel. Muslim: Ghalib says this: it has got a particular meaning. I am a Muslim. I may commit a hundred and one sins, but when do I CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 159 become a Kafir? If I refuse to accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Nabi, will I be a Kafir, according to you, or a Gunahgar (sinner). Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I had told you that whoever denies Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib is a denier. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the word Kufr, it has a literal meaning which means to deny. So how can you say that the one who does not believe... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...that he believes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mirza Sahib - Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib has passed away, people have seen him, no one can deny his existence. If I say that it is not evening right now, am I denying this fact? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. You are denying his prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So it means that his prophethood? The one who does not believe in him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The one who does not believe in him, does not believe. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So we cannot say about him that he believes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So to him, to an ordinary Muslim, if you say that the one who does not believe is a Kafir what impression do you give? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I never said that. I don't know what impression they take. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you. I do not mean particularly you < Ahmadiyya Community members if they dub a person who 160 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 does not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet and Nabi, do you..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, this issue of disbelief won't be resolved this way. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am not resolving the issue.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we are here to resolve the issue, through consultation, by exchanging views. All the fatwas of disbelief given by different sects should be brought forward, then we all should put our heads together, not necessarily here on this forum, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I agree with you, but I am asking you a simple question that when you call someone you don't mean in this sense , you say that he is a political disbeliever, Kafir that he is outside the pale of Islam? Or do you say that he is outside the pale of Islam? I am asking a simple question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In one sense, he is; in another sense, he is not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you say about a person that he does not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet, therefore he is a disbeliever and a political disbeliever, then there is no harm in praying behind a political disbeliever, is there? If he is a religious, Islamic disbeliever, then one should not pray behind him. hmm. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, the issue of prayer is a separate issue. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am giving an example, I am giving an example. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question of whether to pray or not to pray, is that one sect declares that you cannot pray behind us at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is that why they say he is a disbeliever? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 161 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, behind us. For example, if he says about the Ahmadiyya community, For example, if the Deobandi gentlemen say that no member of the Ahmadiyya community can offer prayers behind us, then A member of the Ahmadiyya community should not offer prayers behind them in order to avoid strife and to save the area from strife. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right, you are right. I am asking According to your belief. If you call a person a Kafir because he considers Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib Not a prophet... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our view, he is accountable. And the person who does not obey the command of Allah Almighty He is accountable. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, is he a Kafir in the sense that he is outside the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is a Kafir in the sense that God Almighty will hold him accountable. And he denies, he is denying according to the literal meaning of denial. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If a Muslim does not believe in Jesus Christ, then he becomes a Kafir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If a Muslim... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That he was a prophet of God, he was a true prophet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, he will be a denier of God Almighty's command. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, is he a Kafir or not, in the ordinary sense, which Muslims understand, which people like me, simple people understand? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, more than that. If the Holy Quran has said that It is a condition for being a Muslim, as it has said in many places, to believe in all the prophets, then whoever 162 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Anyone who does not believe in all the prophets becomes a Kafir according to the Quranic idiom. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has he gone outside the circle of Islam then? Idiom. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I have not read "outside the circle of Islam" anywhere in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, when you use this idiom, in what sense do you use it? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Meaning I personally... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Your Jamaat? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I do not use it openly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The Jamaat, if someone did something in the past... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not necessarily even Ahmadiyya Jamaat; when we, Muslim scholars, say that someone is outside the circle of Islam. Normally........ Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, they are outside the circle of Islam. In my opinion, they don't...agree with me or not, in my opinion, it is only that they will be accountable after dying on the Day of Judgment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The disbelievers and the sinners will also be accountable. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Now this is the category of accountability... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In which category do you place them? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In the category of accountability. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 163 Worthy Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning in two categories? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in the category of both being accountable. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in which category do we place them? As sinners or as infidels? Both? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, whoever is an infidel is a sinner. Whoever does not obey God Almighty's command and denies any prophet, in your opinion, is not a sinner but an infidel! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Mirza Sahib! Not every sinner is an infidel, but every infidel is a sinner. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Every infidel is a sinner, so it is better if we use the word sinner. Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I say, in which category will you put a person who does not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet? As a sinner or as an infidel? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If all infidels are sinners, then he falls into the category of sinners. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is the case in every situation. Then the second category of sinners is that one receives a lesser punishment, and one receives a greater punishment. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why I am saying... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Giving punishment is not the job of me or any human. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, the thing is that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Allah Almighty Himself will decide. 164 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say that the sinner can go to paradise after a short time in hell, but the infidel cannot. He is condemned for ever, that is what they say. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that's why it became a contentious issue. In our view, hell is not for ever at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even for Kafir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even for Kafir it is not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, in our view, hell is not forever at all, but it is mentioned in the Hadith that there will come a time when there will be no one inside hell. In figurative language, its doors will be shaking like this, open, no guards, no latches, nothing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to the Holy Quran, an infidel is considered outside the circle of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Quran has not used the phrase "outside the circle of Islam." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, from the Ummah? Is he counted in the Ummah or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Quran does not use the phrase "outside the circle of Islam" at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, does he remain in the Ummah? Does a person who commits disbelief remain a Muslim or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Quran has mentioned three categories, right at the beginning of Surah Al-Baqarah: a believer, an infidel, and a hypocrite, and the hypocrite has been described as more sinful than the infidel in the Hadith. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 165 has said: "Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of Hell" The Holy Quran has... the Holy Quran has. And despite the fact that a disbeliever is a greater sinner, he is included within the circle of Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib!... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding disbelief, it is mentioned in the Hadith, in the Hadiths: "Disbelief short of disbelief." So there is a big difference between disbelief and disbelief. So what we call disbelief is not all of one kind. And we will differentiate. Regarding the circle of Islam, which word you have used, we say whether one is excluded from the community or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From the community. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I'm asking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From the Ummah of Muhammad (PBUH). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If a person denies the "Kalima Tayyiba," then he is excluded from the Islamic community, he no longer remains in the Muslim Ummah. But those who have other heterodox beliefs, weaknesses, are sinners, man is very weak, me too, you too, may Allah protect us, so Ibn Taymiyyah says this: "Disbelief is of two kinds, one that expels from the religion and the other does not expel from the religion." One disbelief expels from the community, and the other disbelief does not expel from the community. The one who... 166 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 denies of Tayyaba, he expels him from the Millat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who denies the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, is he expelled? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: He does not expel from the Millat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He does not expel from the Millat? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: He does not deny the Kalima Tayyaba, does he? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, this is correct, he does not expel from the Millat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These writings of yours, all of these, or many, were presented before the Munir Inquiry Court and your interpretation was also presented.... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Their finding was that from your writing it appears that you consider other Muslims outside the pale of Islam. ✓ Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Whose opinion was it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is Munir's Finding. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, this is Munir Sahib's Finding. He has many other Findings besides this. If one has to trust his Findings... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: ...then all should be taken. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the thing is, that the evidence that goes before a court, the record that goes, the arguments that take place, then they reach a conclusion. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, that is what I mean. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 167 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not saying that this is binding on the Assembly, on me or on you; but this has got its own value. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Where is that Munir report? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 199. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My point is only that Munir's inquiry also states that if the fatwas of the scholars are examined and the statements given there are considered, then no one remains a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right, sir, that's right. I am asking you about their finding on this point. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which page is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 199. The Report says Sir, that: "On the question whether the Ahmadis consider the other Muslims to be Kafirs in the sense of their being outside the pale of Islam, the position taken before us is that such persons are not Kafirs and that the word Kufr, when used in the literature of the Ahmadis in respect of such persons, is used in the sense of minor heresy and that it was never intended to convey that such persons were outside the pale of Islam. We have seen the previous pronouncements of Ahmadis on this subject, which are numerous, and to us they do not seem to be capable of any other interpretation than this that people who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are outside the pale of Islam. It is now stated that Muslims, who do not accept the claim of a Mamoor-min-Allah after the Holy Prophet, are not deniers of Allah and the 168 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Prophet and are, therefore, still within the Ummat. This is in no way inconsistent with the previous announcements that the other Musalmans are Kafirs. In fact, these words indirectly reaffirm the previous conviction that such persons are Musalmans only in the sense that they belong to the Prophet's Ummat and as such are entitled to be treated as members of Muslim society (Muashira). This is very different from saying that they are Musalmans and not Kafirs." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is exactly the same; you have explained the same position as explained they.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is Justice Munir Sahib's opinion... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We do not agree with this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Sir, while we are on this subject, will you kindly make a distinction between a political Muslim and a non-political Muslim, I mean, very briefly. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The first thing is that in my mind 'political', when we say in English, we believe... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, 'political', you had stated, that is why I am saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, meaning the political definition of a Muslim is that he believes in Allah, the Kalima Shahadat La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah.... and believes in the other four pillars of Islam, and there is a hadith in Bukhari of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that whoever faces our Qibla and eats our slaughtered animal, he is politically in the trust of Allah and the trust of... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 169 ...the Messenger. This is political protection, that he will be counted as a Muslim in the political sense. This is "political Muslim, in the custody of God and the custody of the Messenger," this is almost a literal translation of "political Muslim." This is the saying of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him. And one is that Muslim who, according to according to the knowledge that some servants have, becomes accountable in the eyes of God Almighty, meaning that God Almighty does not like some actions. And in general, the situation is such that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does this definition apply to other Muslims as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: How would you define an ordinary Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that also applies to Ahmadis. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I said, will it apply to any Muslim, this political definition that you have given? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The political definition applies to every Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...will it apply? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said, what is the distinction between the two? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it will apply to everyone. And this thing, this is where we have the difference. difference between sects and the Jamaat. And this is that it is accountable in the eyes of Allah. One group says, a sect says that these beliefs are not liked by God Almighty. The other says that this other group of beliefs... ...these are not liked by God Almighty and are accountable in the eyes of God Almighty. Whether Allah Almighty will hold accountable or not, that is not the question here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there any political Muslim in the Ahmadiyya Jamaat as well? 170 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this party political Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Political Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The way you are defining it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All Ahmadis, all Deobandis, all Barelvis, according to the political definition, are considered Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And besides the political Muslim, what is, what is over and above that, more to be added to be something more than Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is that he should act upon all the commands of the Holy Quran, mould his life according to the example of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and in Surah Fatiha, Allah Almighty has said, "Iyyaka Na'budu" to strive to fulfill the covenant, the meaning of which our elders and our intellect have also made, and the dictionary also says that Allah Almighty He should try to put the color of His attributes on himself, especially these basic attributes are mentioned here. Which have been done, according to all the attributes, to put the color of all the attributes on oneself. , The one who is lazy in these things and does not become an ideal human being is accountable to God. And in this, we then... between Ahmadis and others... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking about that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we do not differentiate between Ahmadis and Wahhabis. We also tell our Ahmadis. say. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was asking for a general definition. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 171 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am still not clear with your answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is also in the affidavit, in this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that if a Muslim does not believe in Jesus as a prophet, then is he a political infidel or an infidel, will he be outside the pale of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A person who does not act on some of the orders of the Holy Quran, he is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am particularly asking about this, that this is the command of Allah... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is also one of them. The one who does not act on some parts of the Holy Quran, we can call him a Muslim in the political definition but not in the real definition. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking about the person who (disobeys) Allah Almighty's command to believe in all the prophets and Jesus is also one of them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says that I do not believe in Jesus, I do not believe. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then he is a rebel of the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So he is an infidel? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is an infidel, actually the thing is that you have not told the meaning of infidel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Infidel. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What does infidel mean to you? 172 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One who is not considered a Muslim in Islam, who is not conceived as a Muslim, in that sense. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Should one who does not even offer prayers be conceived as a Muslim? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I ask you, you are to clarify the position before the Special Committee, that when you call a man a "Kafir" (disbeliever) in one sense, you said it is political, that he will be prosecuted. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All of it, it is all of that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Secondly, he is a "Kafir" (disbeliever) who... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... who exits the "Ummat-e-Millat-e-Islamia" (Community of the Islamic Nation), then he... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Exits. So, I ask that one who does not believe in Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ)... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One who does not believe in that verse of the Holy Quran, in which believing in Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ) is necessary, he... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will exit? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he will exit the "Millat-e-Islamia" (Islamic Nation). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And one who does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, will he remain or exit? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One who does not believe, is one who denies the order of God. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, he will also exit? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is liable to prosecution... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And that means you have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You also confuse, that is why... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1/3 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I want to clarify the position. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our view, he does not exclude the Muslim community in a political sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The one who does not accept Hazrat Isa, does he also not exclude in a political sense? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He also does not exclude in a political sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But in what sense does he exclude? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He excludes in the sense that he is subject to Allah Almighty's retribution due to violating the commands of Allah Almighty. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But he will still be a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He will still remain a Muslim in a political sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In what sense does he become an infidel? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, here there are two kinds of disbelief. In one sense, he is an infidel, in another sense, he is a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the person who says that I do not accept anyone as a prophet except the Holy Prophet (PBUH)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has not understood Islam at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He would not have understood, sir, he is an ignorant man. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is my answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He, he has become an infidel or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has left the Muslim community. In a political sense... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In a political sense? 174 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not in a political sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In another sense? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in a political sense he is a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He still remains a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the person who calls himself a Muslim remains a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if he understands that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 90 percent of such Muslims are present in our country who even find it difficult to recite the Kalima Tayyiba, at least they don't know the meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, one... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are you getting into some argument? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not getting into an argument. One thing is that a person doesn't understand and says that I am a Muslim, recites the Kalima, but deliberately, maliciously denies... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is a rebel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am mentioning that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he is a rebel who does it deliberately. 'Deliberately' means that, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Understanding that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That the Holy Quran says to accept Prophet Jesus. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 175 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I, rebelling against God's command, deny it. He is out of the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Politically only? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, politically also out, you state this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning he is completely out? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he is completely out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The one who denies the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, he is also completely out? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, my first point, keep in mind what I am saying. I said that the person who says, "I know, I am aware that God Almighty demands of me to accept Jesus as a prophet, but I stand against God Almighty and deny him," he is out. The person who says, "I know that God Almighty says to accept the founder of the order as a follower prophet, and I will not accept," he is also out. If you give one definition in one place and another definition in another place, it will be wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, according to you, if Allah Almighty has said that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a prophet, believe in him... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then despite that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, yes, I haven't said according to my saying that he is denying Hazrat Masih, I have said according to his saying. The person who stands and says that God Almighty has said to believe in all prophets, and mentioned Jesus in the Holy Quran, and knowing that God Almighty demands it from me in His perfect Sharia and the Holy Quran... 176 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Aug 5th, 1974 In the instruction that believe, and still I rebel and refuse to believe, he is out of the Islamic nation in every sense. And whoever says that I know that the Mahdi Promised is from Allah The Exalted and is an Ummah prophet, but despite that I will not believe, he is out in the same way as the first one was. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if someone doesn't even know? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if someone, I'll explain... if someone says that I don't even know that God tells me to believe in the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, if he has Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if he hasn't even heard the name of Hazrat Isa. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If he hasn't even heard the name, then he... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And doesn't believe, because he says that I haven't even heard the name, I don't believe. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Politically, he is definitely not out, he is absolutely a Muslim, according to our political meaning, he has the same protection that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said in Fi Zimmat Allah Wa Zimmat Rasoolahu. And the second one is from Allah Almighty... that is his, what are we sitting here to judge him? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This was said by Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad, I will read it, then I will give the reference. You then give your comments on it: Even if a sword is placed on both sides of my neck and I am told that you say that no prophet will come after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then I will definitely say that you are a liar. 177 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION "He is a liar, after you prophets can come and must come." Please verify this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I agree with you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am going to say something else... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, okay, that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I, listen to my conclusion after that. That's why you give me this question, then I can answer it after consulting the books, otherwise it is difficult for me to answer here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir! I only said that he said this. I have read here that "and prophets can come." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I cannot answer without reading the context in which he said it, what the subject is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I would not be fair to this august House. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he said this: "All Muslims who have not joined the allegiance of Hazrat Masih Maud, even if they have not even heard the name of Masih Maud, they are also infidels and out of the circle of Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will tell you after looking at the book. 178 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Aug 5th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is theirs, sir, Ayeena-e-Sadaqat, page number 35. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said that... Mr. Chairman: If the books are available here, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Books are available. Mr. Chairman: these may be shown to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 35. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It says here: All Muslims who have not joined the Bai'at of Hazrat Masih Maud, even if they have not heard the name of Masih Maud, are also Kafir and outside the circle of Islam. Here the meaning is that they are outside in a political sense. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this question, in these exact words, was asked during the Munir Inquiry as well, so I will read out the answer that Hazrat Khalifa Sani himself gave. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the question, it is written here that: "Do you still hold the belief that you expressed in the first chapter of your book Ayeena-e-Sadaqat on page 35, that is, that all those Muslims who have not pledged allegiance to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, even if they have not heard the name of Mirza Sahib, are Kafirs and are outside the circle of Islam." Answer: This is evident from this statement itself that I call those people who are in my mind, Muslims. So when I use the word Kafir, then in my mind... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 179 There is a second type of infidel that I have already explained, meaning those who are not outside the nation. When I say that they are outside the circle of Islam, then I have in mind the theory expressed in the book "Mafroozat Raghib" on page number 240, where two types of Islam are described... one Doon al-Iman and the other Fauq al-Iman. Doon al-Iman includes those Muslims whose level of Islam is less than faith. Fauq al-Iman mentions such Muslims who are so distinguished in faith that they are above ordinary faith. Therefore, when I said that some people are outside the circle of Islam, then I had in mind those Muslims who fall under the definition of Fauq al-Iman. There is also a narration in Mishkat that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said that whoever helps and supports a tyrant is outside of Islam. That is the answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When this answer was given, then Justice Munir gave this finding that he was not convinced and he still thought that the only impression one could get is that, according to you, these people are Kafir and outside the pale of Islam. Mr. Mirza Sahib! Please tell me, if a learned judge and a very capable judge, despite the authoritative explanation that Mr. Mirza Sahib presented there, still understands that you mean Kafir, impression ordinary outside the pale of Islam, is it? 180 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 15th Aug., 1974 Read. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ordinary Muslims haven't even read Justice Munir's report. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm asking generally, what impression does it give that so-and-so is an infidel, who doesn't believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If we're talking, then it's a matter of impression. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, because the thing is that the members of the assembly are... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are not ordinary people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but they are just like Justice Munir; he was not convinced by this reply. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If Justice Munir is not convinced for some reason, will the whole world follow him? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I'm not saying that. I don't say this, but I say that you produced material before him, you gave interpretation before him in a very authoritative, lucid manner, inspite of that he gave a finding ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He was not in a mood to accept those statements. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, the average person, intelligent person, educated person, and you call me Kafir, I am not going to bother and going into the details and say: "What do you mean by Kafir?". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He didn't even stand on that. He gave his finding regarding all the other sects that I don't believe in anyone. Everyone calls each other infidels. And my problem is that even if I praise myself, I'm an infidel, and if I praise another sect... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 181 If I call praise as glorification, then in the eyes of all the remaining sects, I am an infidel. So all those findings, keeping them together, Justice Munir's opinion is worth considering. At that time, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But they have given this Finding, I am related to it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is their finding on apostasy, it goes on 218, 219, there is no need to read it out, you can consider it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking that at that time, when it is said by your group that so-and-so is an infidel, what is the impression of it on the common man...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When is it said? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Like they say in England. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You asked last time... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...what the common man, as a reasonable man, thinks of it, but what the common man thinks, the man in the street, the reasonable man; although he is an ideal, he never exists. So, according to you, when you say so and so is Kafir, what does a man in the street think? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, I am responsible for expressing my belief from my side... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...how does the responsibility of it come upon me that Justice Munir or any other person accepts it or not? I think he should accept it, because I am giving my opinion about myself. 182 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's alright. I'll move on. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib has stated in one place that: "Every such person who believes in Moses but does not believe in Jesus, believes in Jesus but does not believe in Muhammad, or believes in Muhammad but does not believe in the Promised Messiah, is not just a disbeliever but a confirmed disbeliever and is outside the pale of Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The boundary of Islam has now come... Is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, does this mean that you only say they are outside and disbelievers from a political point of view? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's it, that's the answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the answer to that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One is above faith, and one is below faith. These assumptions were made by Raghib, it is a book of Quranic vocabulary, and the Arabic words used in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, so Mirza Sahib!...the next point is Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this, this and stated their own path. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If a Christian believes in Moses, believes in Abraham, believes in Jesus, but does not believe in Muhammad (peace be upon him), has he become a Muslim politically? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, how can he be a Muslim? If he does not believe in the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), then there is no question of him being a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He did not believe in one prophet, but he believed in all the others. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, how can he be a Muslim? He is the prophet who has encompassed everything, whose spiritual benefit has covered all the previous prophets. He who does not believe in Muhammad (peace be upon him)... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 183 Agreed, according to our belief, he did not believe in any prophet of the world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is he absolutely an infidel? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Call him whatever you want, he is not even worthy of being called a human. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, a Muslim can in no way be called a Muslim within the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: How can someone who does not believe in the Holy Prophet (PBUH) come within the circle of Islam? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if someone does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, does he come in? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The one who does not believe, there are two circles, right? So he comes inside one circle, not inside the other. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Sir, next quotation is: "Since we believe Mirza Sahib to be a prophet and non-Ahmadis do not believe you to be a prophet, therefore, according to the teachings of the Holy Quran that denying any prophet is also disbelief, non-Ahmadis are also disbelievers." This is from "Alfazal" June 1922, 26-29. I think it was bi-weekly in those days. "Since we believe Mirza Sahib to be a prophet and non-Ahmadis do not believe you to be a prophet, therefore, according to the teachings of the Holy Quran that denying any prophet is also disbelief, non-Ahmadis are also disbelievers." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This has already happened. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I...because all the members are on this... 184 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That answer of his, which I have just read out, in our opinion, it covers all of those which you have read up till now. We don't know about the future. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since different... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...members have sent me... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Sir, that's right. Mr. Chairman: No, one thing may be clarified: whether the writings are admitted or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Beg your pardon? Mr. Chairman: The writings are admitted or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is not denied. Mr. Chairman: That is not denied. All right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But he can verify them. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You give that to me, and then I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have made a date as I read along, so that... If you want to do something, that we should produce the original for you, or you think it's wrong, then... you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it's not saved in my memory. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm saying this... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 185 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But I would like you to give this to me so I can check. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I have given you the reference. I am giving you the references. If you don't have it, then we will produce it for you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh! You are referring to Al-Fadl... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have the entire file of "Al-Fadl" with you, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this reference, which one is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is from June 26-29. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: June 26-29, 1922. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is correct, reference noted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this at that time... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have the Judgement document. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then comes the following: The Promised Messiah has strictly emphasized that no Ahmadi should offer prayers behind a non-Ahmadi. People from outside repeatedly ask about this. I say that as many times as you ask, that many times I will answer that it is not permissible to offer prayers behind a non-Ahmadi, not permissible. 186 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Yes, you have said that, haven't you, that these people don't offer Namaz? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there are many reasons for not offering Namaz. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One is that, the affidavit that we have, on page 154 also... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the reasons that you have stated... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Apart from those, are there other reasons too, because of which you don't offer Namaz behind them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why does an Ahmadi Muslim not offer Namaz behind non-Ahmadis? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, apart from the reasons that you have given here, are there other reasons too? Not just these reasons? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There would be. Tell me, I will tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, one is this...let me read it out to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will come to the issue of Namaz later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Further, he says, on Anwar Khilafat page 90: It is our duty that we do not consider non-Ahmadis to be Muslims, and do not offer Namaz behind them, because in our view, they are deniers of a prophet of God. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION The same reply? 187 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is that this fatwa, whether to offer prayers behind them or not, was first imposed on Ahmadis by various sects. This issue of prayer has now started... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir, I am coming to the prayer issue first. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, not yet? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I asked on the same point that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "It is our duty not to consider non-Ahmadis as Muslims." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That comes later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our memorandum, this is the answer given that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no Sir, the prayer issue comes later... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, not for prayer. This Islamic ideology that was presented before the Munir Committee in the Jur Report contains this answer, with some references to various sects, Wahhabis and Barelvis, stating that from the references we have mentioned above, the following results are derived. These are not from different sects, but rather references from various hadiths and imams. And this book was probably not given before. If you want, we can present it to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir, you may present it. I only asked that this is what it is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, one Islam means complete faith, and not all Muslims are included in that complete faith. The second Islam is achieved by joining Islam by reciting the Kalima. This 188 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug., 1974 For a Muslim, there is no shame in not having complete faith, but a person can be a Muslim even without any kind of faith. No action can be taken against him except advice, preaching, and prayer. Secondly, the Ahmadis did not issue a fatwa of being outside Islam and infidels against non-Ahmadis first, but first they, the other sects, issued a fatwa of disbelief against the Ahmadiyya community. And my assessment is that for years, the founder of the series kept explaining to the scholars of that time not to get involved in this game of disbelief because the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said that whoever calls a Muslim an infidel, the disbelief returns to him, and on one occasion, the scholars of that time demanded very strongly from the founder of the Ahmadiyya series to do Mubahala with us. So you said to them, how can I do Mubahala with you, I consider you Muslims. So the answer came from ahead that you may consider us Muslims, but we consider you infidels. And since they issued fatwas of disbelief, and since the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said that whoever calls a Muslim a believer an infidel, the disbelief returns to him, that is why we do not call anyone an infidel. The speaker has spoken. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then the proposition is very simple now....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Exactly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .......If you claim that you are a Muslim, nobody can call you that you are not a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Similarly, Mufti Muhamood can claim that he is a Muslim and nobody can call him that he is not a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Certainly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because he called you, you also have a right to call him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, no. You did not understand my point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you say that he called me Kafir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I also have the right to call (him) Kafir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I did not say that at all, not at all. I am very sorry that I could not make myself understood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But this is the position. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, this is not the position. I said that if Zaid calls Bakr a Kafir, says (it), and the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has said about this that if a person calls a Muslim a Kafir, then the Kafir returns to him. So this decree of Kufr, the Kafir, was not imposed by the person who first called (someone) a Kafir, (it) was not imposed by Bakr who was called a Kafir, but by that person, that sacred being who came for the guidance of all of us. Hazrat Khatam-ul-Anbiya Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that if anyone calls a Muslim a Kafir, then the Kufr will return to you, the Kufr will fall upon us, so Bakr did not issue the fatwa, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) issued the fatwa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, when the leaders, the leaders of the Ahmadiyya community, issue a fatwa against someone that he is a Kafir? 190 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If we apply 'Qaumi' first, then we will become Kafir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, don't say it first, does this right extend later? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We don't apply it at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That Allah knows, that will revert back. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, listen to me, I couldn't explain myself again. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In retaliation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If Deobandi or Dawabi or Barelvi or Ahl-e-Hadith or Ahl-e-Quran, etc., etc., if any of these groups issue a fatwa of disbelief against the Ahmadiyya, even then the Ahmadiyya community does not have the right that they... ...or original Quran, etc., etc., if any of these groups issue a fatwa of disbelief against the Ahmadiyya, even then the Ahmadiyya community does not have the right that they call them Kafir. But the Ahmadiyya community does not have the right that the group that Muhammad (peace be upon him) declared as Kafir according to the hadith "it will revert back to the same," that they do not call them Kafir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, will you please explain if a particular Maulvi, Alim... or so-called Alim you, can call him calls Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that he was Kafir, or Ahmadis are Kafir, now do you condemn the whole Muslim community for that, or that particular individual? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If they disassociate themselves...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But how? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: from that Fatwa........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ......we don't call them Kafir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if those who haven't even heard? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we will make them hear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, if someone hasn't heard at all, if someone hasn't heard at all? You are saying generally. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will make them hear that it has come in Hadith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please, this..... you kindly see...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......you don't say Maulvi so and so is Kafir, Mulla so and so Kafir...... Muslims who do not believe in the Prophet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We call them Muslims and Kafirs in the same breath with the same accusation. This is also something to think about. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sometimes, sometimes there are contradictions in this.... that sometimes you call them Muslims, sometimes you don't. But with the label of Muslim, you say that he has become a Kafir, he is out, he is out of the circle of Islam. 192 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we say that they are both Muslims and infidels. It turns out that we are talking about two circles. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have said it like that in some places, and in some places you don't say it. In some places, when you are a Muslim, then there is only one, one person is a Muslim. When you claimed disbelief, then he is out. Until then, he remains a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They had a reference here by chance, Haqiqat-ul-Wahi 165, 164-165. In it, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement declared that: "It is a matter of Sharia that one who calls a believer an infidel eventually becomes an infidel himself. Then, since approximately 200 Maulvis have declared me an infidel and a fatwa of disbelief has been written against me, and it is proven by their fatwa that one who calls a believer an infidel becomes an infidel, then the easiest solution to this is that if other people have true honesty and faith and they are not hypocrites, then they should publish a long advertisement about those Maulvis with the names of each Maulvi clarified, that they are all infidels because they have made a Muslim an infidel, then I will consider them Muslims." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will ask you again. Please understand, try to understand my question. Now, I am a Muslim who has nothing to do with Barelvi, Deobandi or anybody else. I am just giving you an example; there could be many. Now, if a Barelvi Maulvi or a Deobandi Maulvi declares Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Kafir....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you don't? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: and I have not even heard of his Fatwa...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you don't declare him a Kafir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ............and There is no referendum on the question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are saying one thing, in the same context I Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir, I ask you that a person declares that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a Kafir. Will you call that person a Kafir? But will you say no? As many as are left? Two hundred Maulvis have said so, therefore two hundred thousand Muslims, two crore Muslims, crore Muslims, we will consider everyone a Kafir if they do not declare what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is? Isn't it putting it in the same shape that anybody who does not accept him as Nabi is Kafir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have told you that it is political. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You condemn two hundred Maulvis. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No no, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: call them Kafir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is a political definition, according to that we do not even call those two hundred Maulvis that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir, the way you said it, in whatever context you said it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not even them, meaning not even the two hundred Maulvis are called Kafir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, my point is that the person who... 194 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the one whom they call 'Kafir' in another sense, they call so because they are not fulfilling many important requirements of the faith, and therefore, in the eyes of Allah Almighty... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: are accountable. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That, that is all right, Sir, ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And are not excluded from the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but, Sir, if two hundred Maulvis...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we don't exclude the rest from the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you say that you only mentioned Muslim. What I have read out to you just now... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They have called them Muslims as well. That is what they have answered. When I say that this is a Muslim, then I call him a Muslim as well, and a Kafir as well. From one aspect, they are Muslims, and from another aspect, they are Kafirs in my opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: All? All Muslims? Not two hundred Maulvis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Not all Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Those who have not joined the allegiance of the Promised Messiah..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then all are Muslims. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 195 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will explain to you... as I understand; I may be wrong. Those who have not even heard the name of the Promised Messiah are also disbelievers and outside the pale of Islam." Now, as far as I understand is, that all the Muslims, they are all Muslims because they believe in the Holy Prophet and all that. But Mirza Sahib says 'since I have come now, I am Nabi', or Mirza Sahib's Khalifa said those Muslims who do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet, as a Nabi, they are outside, dismissed, expunged', whatever you may call it,...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: so, they were Muslims, but they have been removed from the pate of Islam...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This, this, I do not mean this by it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It does not mean that, after he has given the verdict, they continue. They say: they were before, but are no longer....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This was not said. ......that is how it is interpreted, as I say. If you think that it is not correct....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, let me ask one of my delegation members (Where is that book? Then I will read the reference. The one who says "Sahib al-baninat adra bima fih," we have to accept the word of the one who says it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, that's fine. What I am saying is that no one except a Muslim believes in Hazrat Muhammad (peace be upon him). They say that after him... 196 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You yourself said that I call them Muslims, and from another point of view, I also call them infidels. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, when they are called infidels, are they Muslim infidels? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Despite that, I call them Muslims. I said it myself... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you also say that they are outside the circle of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I have also said why I consider them outside the circle of Islam. Meaning I consider them included in the Muslim community, but I consider them outside the circle of Islam. لكل ان يصطلح Our knowledge has permitted that a person can create their own terminologies in their own language that they deem necessary, and explain them. You cannot separate this explanation. Mr. Chairman: I think that will do for today. You want to continue or we should....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, we can continue tomorrow morning.... Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow morning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: so soon. because it will not conclude Mr. Chairman: Yes, the members of the Delegation are permitted to go. Tomorrow at 10.00 a.m. AVAILABILITY OF BOOKS ETC. FOR QUOTATIONS AND CROSS-REFERENCES Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Aren't there any other magazines in this, regarding which I have to confirm? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, those are about Al-Fazl, etc. There is nothing like that here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In my opinion, they will be from the books that you have here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if they are from Al-Fazl, which is not here, then I will have to look at those, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are Anwar-ul-Khilafat, which are currently in front of me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you give us this question, then by comparing the whole context, we will send that to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, these are quotations, about the matter that they have declared (someone) a disbeliever. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And maybe something is written before and after... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...which is explaining it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can do that later then. Mr. Chairman: The quotations can be supplied to the witness. We have got the books. The books can be referred. And I think, for the purpose of convenience, tomorrow, the books will be lying here. At that time, they can be....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The books are available. These 198 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 members who asked me to put these questions to the witness, I told them to bring the authority written therein here. Mr. Chairman: We have got them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I said that....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: they can find out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I only need the reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am only giving the reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We need the references, if we can find the page numbers then... Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Mr. Chairman, the books are available. Mr. Chairman: Yes, they are available. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: At any we can supply the books. Mr. Chairman: Yes. time Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: The books are available. Mr. Chairman: Yes, they are available. So, any reference the witness can see, he will look up tomorrow and can reply. AVAILABILITY OF BOOKS ETC. FOR QUOTATIONS AND CROSS-REFERENCES 199 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The books, Sir, which I am referring to........ Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: are written either by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself or by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud his addresses. So, they are with the Ahmadiyya Jamaat. But in case they don't have them...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, they will be available. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... only page references are needed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As for any other such book, I haven't referred to it. Munir's Report commonly available, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is here, that's right. Assalam-o-Alaikum. We are leaving. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: I think before adjourning for tomorrow at 10.00 a.m., the books may be kept near the Attorney-General, and………….. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: With the witness. I will not produce them. He has got the books. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only those books........ Mr. Chairman: No, if the Attorney-General confronts them this page, this portion is it correct? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but he says he wants to read the whole thing and....... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 5th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: he wants me to give him in advance. But I cannot... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: question I am going to put Mr. Chairman: Yes. …….... because I don't know which Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...... Sir. Mr. Chairman: Yes. It depends upon his answer, DISTURBANCE DURING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Chairman: And the second thing I would like to say is that the honorable members sitting around the Attorney-General should keep at least should not disturb him. They should not be impatient. This I would request because I ..... Mian Mohammad Attaullah: Sir, I have another point that some of the witnesses who were here...... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mian Mohammad Attaullah: for instance, Mirza Tahir Ahmad, he unnecessarily.... Mr. Chairman: One second. Mian Mohammad Attaullah: Sir, Just a minute please. Mr. Chairman: Just a minute. METHOD OF CONDUCTING THE CROSS EXAMINATION 201 Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: One there on their right hand... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: They also make faces, talk, and looking this way, they mock and shake their heads too. A member: Sir! I will propose that the Attorney General also ask questions while sitting. Mr. Chairman: That is a separate matter. I was just submitting that.... METHOD OF CONDUCTING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: The second suggestion is that our respected Attorney General Sahib, I think you should either tell him to answer while standing... this is also the rule in the witness box, or the Attorney General Sahib should also ask questions while sitting. Mr. Chairman: No, that... Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: What should he do? Mr. Chairman: Maulana Sahib! We gave him permission on the first day. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Okay. Mr. Chairman: We gave them permission. Anything else? Now the House stands... A member: Sir, I want to say one thing. Mr. Chairman: One second. Yes, yes. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Tell Khalifa Nasir Ahmed to give answers while standing. Mr. Chairman: That is almost settled. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: But you order us. A member: You are disturbing again. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: That we should speak while standing, give him this order too. Mr. Chairman: Sir, this is an assembly, this is a special committee sitting. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Sir, a witness does not have the right to sit in court. Mr. Amin: Except that special committee, Mr. Aziz Bhatti! Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Sir. Mr. Chairman: I call the House to order. Sardar Abdul Aleem. Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Sir, I wanted to submit that when questions are asked of the witness... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: When the Attorney General asks questions of the witness, instead of giving a direct answer, as it is the duty of a witness to answer... they try to avoid it, and argue, and then suggest to them that they should ask me this question. So I think it is the duty of the Chair that you should check them to this extent in this matter, that instead of getting into debate, he should stick to the question put by the Attorney-General. CONDUCT OF THE WITNESS DURING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION 203 A Member: Sir, I request to the honorable members........ Mr. Chairman: The Attorney-General can ask the Chair at any time when he feels that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I request, he need not answer any question at all. But you, as judges, should note that. The demeanor of the witness, his hesitation, his effort to be evasive, all these are taken into consideration and you can draw your own inference, favorable or adverse. And your addresses....… Mr. Chairman: One thing I may mention. The honorable members...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: you can make a note of everything. You give a fair decision yourselves. Mr. Chairman: One thing I may remained the honorable members: we are getting the opinion of a withness....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But Mr. Chairman: ...... Opinion is, rare cases, under the Evidence Act. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know. He is such a witness, you know, and such an issue before the House:. CONDUCT OF THE WITNESS DURING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Sir, the conduct of the witness is not coming on the record, Sir, as to how he is behaving........ Mr. Chairman: No Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: and how he is 204 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Mr. Chairman: No, no, no, everybody is [5th Aug., 1974 Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: As far as the record is concerned, only the words of the witness are coming on the record. Mr. Chairman: Everything is being noted, you can refer. Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro. A Member: Sir, Chairman, Sir, my submission, humble submission, Sir ........ Mr. Chairman: Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro. I gave him the floor first. A Member: Mr. Chairman, a submission, a humble submission to you, Sir, that I _ Mr. Chairman: Can't you sit quietly for a minute? Yes, Sardar Maula Bakhsh! Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: My humble submission to you, Sir, is that I highly appreciate your patience but, Sir, I would request that kindly you do not allow them too much attitude. He is giving evasive replies. The same question is repeated in the same breath. It gets on our nerves. Rather than you give a patient-... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Sardar Maula Bakhsh. Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: I highly appreciate your patience but there should be some check. Sir, some check from the Chair also should be applied. Mr. Chairman: This I shall only do when the Attorney- General seeks the aid of the Chair. When he thinks....... (Interruption) CONDUCT OF THE WITNESS DURING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION 205 Just a minute. When he thinks so, only then, in that case I shall do it because this I have left entirely to the Attorney- General. Yes. Ataliq Jaffer Ali Shah, I would like to submit with great respect that when a definite question is asked, do not repeat it on your own until there is a definite The question, that is, its answer, is not received. Therefore, we ourselves, that is, to make it lengthy we ourselves encourage it. As far as I have understood, if a definite question has been asked that will you call such a person a Muslim or a non-believer, then until he gives a definite answer about it, others should not get into discussion on it. And because of the discussion, that becomes lengthy and that manipulation starts. Mr. Chairman: No, today is the first day of the discussion. The discussion will be cut short, yes, the discussion will be cut short. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi... Mr. Chairman: I have one... yes, Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi! Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: It is said that "a non-believer is a non-believer, and is out of the circle of Islam." These two words should be repeated, regularly, and this should be noted regularly that it is not out of the community and it is out of Islam. Mr. Chairman: This has been noted, it has been noted. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Yes. Mr. Chairman: It has been noted many times, it has been noted on tape, it has also come on record there. So. 206 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Aug., 1974 Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi and I have an idea, as you have stated... Mr. Chairman, Sir. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi, that it should also be confirmed from him whether he considers these references of Mirza Mahmood Ahmad to be correct. After that, there will be no need for further questions. Mr. Chairman: Yes. So, the House stands adjourned to meet tomorrow...... A member: Sir, you have put us in a cycle of two circles. Mr. Chairman: at 10.00 a.m. tomorrow. Let's talk tomorrow. The Special Committee of the Whole House adjourned to meet at ten of the clock, in the morning, on Tuesday, the 6th August, 1974. PCPPI-1089(10)NA-04-02-2011--400. No. 02 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Tuesday, the 6th August, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS Pages 1. Books for Reference during Cross-examination 209-210 2. Method of contacting the Attorney-General. 210 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD. No. 02 S THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Tuesday, August 6, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) 3. Interpretation/Confirmation of Documents/Writings. 4. Women's Representation on Questions Committee. 5. Repetition of Oath by the Witness Pages 210-211 6. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation 211-213 7. Evasive or Incorrect Replies by the Witness 214 214-250 250-257 8. Citation of Fatwas and their Reputations ...... 257-258 9. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation. 258-299 10. Arrangement for Production of Books and References.. 300-303 11. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation-(Continued) 303-340 12. Photographs of the Mosque in Ijebuode, Nigeria and its captions...... 341-344 13. Supply of copies of the Proceedings, relating to Cross-examination to Members/Attorney General 344-345 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Tuesday, August 6, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House of the National Assembly of Pakistan met in Camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at ten o'clock in the morning, with Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN Mr. Chairman: Should we start? Members: Yes. Mr. Chairman: They may be called. (Pause) Mr. Chairman: Sit outside for now. BOOKS FOR REFERENCE DURING CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney General, would you agree with me if the books are placed near you for reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): They are available. 209 210 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: Are all available? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): They are available. Mr. Chairman: And the reference _may be shown that this is it. witness which you put to the And there should be least disturbance near the Attorney- General. METHOD OF CONTACTING THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL Mr. Chairman: Two honourable members have been ..... Ch. Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman, Sir,............ Mr. Chairman; Just a minute..... requested to collect the chits. One is Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari and the other is Mr. Aziz Bhatti. The chits should be delivered to these honourable members. And, during the recesses, they can discuss with the Attorney-General. And any honourable member can discuss any matter with the Attorney-General in the recess but, when cross-examination is going on, there should be no disturbance, and specially no whispering around this area. Although I would not like whispering from this end or from that end, but around this area whispering should not be. Yes, Ch. Jahangir Ali. INTERPRETATION OF DOCUMENTS OR WRITINGS Ch. Jahangir Ali: Mr. Speaker, Sir oh! Mr. Chairman, Sir, interpretation of a document or a writing is not the job of a witness, I would therefore, request. Sir, that the witness should not be allowed to interpret the writings. It is the job of the presiding officer or the Judge, Sir, or this honourable committee, to give interpretation to the writings. He should be confronted only with this.. Mr. Chairman: Yes. WOMEN'S REPRESENTATION ON QUESTIONS COMMITTEE 211 Ch. Jahangir Ali: 'whether you admit the existence of this writing in your so and so'.... Mr. Chairman: This is what is settled. You are the judges. You can draw any inference out of this…........ Ch. Jahangir Ali: Sir, he is wasting unnecessarily the time in giving interpretation _ what was the interpretation before the Munir Committee, what was the statement before the Munir Committee.... Mr. Chairman: Ch. Sahib whenever any such difficulty arises, the Attorney-General can ask the Chair that this is unnecessary. Ch. Jahangir All: All right. That is the better way. Mr. Chairman: Begum Nasim Jahan. Begum Nasim Jahan: A………………………………… Mr. Chairman: I have entirely left the matter in the hands of the Attorney-General. He can seek the protection of the Chair. He can seek the clarification or anything, whatever he needs. Yes. WOMEN'S REPRESENTATION ON QUESTIONS COMMITTEE Begum Nasim Jahan: Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am on a matter of clarification. Have women been given any representation on the Questions Committee? Mr. Chairman; Pardon? Begum Nasim Jahan: Have women been given any representation on the Questions Committee? Mr. Chairman: The scope was so narrow: the scope was only five members to sit in the Questions Committee. 212 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 6th, 1974 Begum Nasim Jahan: Sir, I... Mr. Chairman: The Steering Committee has got representation of one........... Begum Nasim Jahan: Yes, Sir, I know. Mr. Chairman: Begum Shireen Wahab; and the Questions Committee had to comprise out of the Steering Committee. Begum Nasim Jahan: Mr. Speaker......Mr. Chairman, Sir, may I make a humble submission? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Begum Nasim Jahan: I consulted Begum Shireen Wahab about this thing and she said that the committee - The Questions Committee was not formed when she was present. Now, Sir, I am fully aware - I don't want to be irrelevant and I don't want to waste your time and the time of the House. Now the witness has made a very important statement in his examination-in-chief or in his dep...., you know, in what he deposed before the House. Now his link in this chain is that because the Holy Prophet of Islam (May peace of God be upon him) did not have a male issue, therefore, the female line cannot carry on his tradition. Therefore, we have to had a Roohani male issue carrying on his tradition. Now, Sir, this is also an important issue in the case because it is an important link and also it hits the status of women. Now, a man who claims to represent one crore of muslims all over the world, I just want to........ Mr. Chairman: I request the hon'able member to be patient. Begum Nasim Jahan: Sir,...... Do not let them come yet. WOMEN'S REPRESENTATION ON QUESTIONS COMMITTEE 213 Mr. Chairman: Please stop them. Yes. Begum Nasim Jahan: Sir, I just wanted - I never want to be irrelevant and I hope you will correct me when I am irrelevant - But whatever comes in the examination-in-chief is subject to cross examination. That is what I was told. May be I am wrong. But, Sir, I feel that this is a very important link and an important chain. There should be a woman on the Questions Committee, who should vet the questions. Mr. Chairman: I will discuss the matter with the convener of the Questions Committee, because the Questions Committee came out of the Steering Committee. Begum Nasim Jahan: Well, thank you, Sir, I am very grateful. Mr. Chairman: Yes, I will just bring I will convey the feelings of the honourable member to the Chairman of the Committee. Begum Nasim Jahan: Sir, they all are supporting me. Mr. Chairman: Yes, the entire House supports you. No, no, it has to go from the Steering Committee. Now I will request the members, if they are prepared, we may call the witnesses. They may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber} Mr. Chairman: I will request the honourable members to be attentive. Mr. Attorney-General, you can proceed. 214 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 6th, 1974 REPETITION OF OATH BY THE WITNESS Mr. Chairman: The Oath? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It may not be repeated, Sir, it is the same. Mr. Chairman: Yes, it is. All right, the witness may take the oath. Otherwise, Rao Sahib, it is a continuing process; it is a continuing process. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not necessary, Sir, at all. Mr. Chairman: It is not necessary. Yes, it’s a continuing process. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is a formality; that you have applied. Mr. Chairman: It is cross-examination. It may be carried to one day, two days, three days. It is a continuing process. And the oath is for the entire examination. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is just a formality. Mr. Chairman: No, then we have to go on for oath daily. Yes, Mr. Attorney-General to continue. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): Mirza Sahib, I don't want to waste your time or the time of the House. It is valuable. But, for the purpose of clarification, I will repeat one or two questions again because I am not sure what the reply was yesterday. You said, Sir, that there are two categories of kafirs: One category is kafirs who fall outside the pale of Islam. Rather does it? Am I correct in understanding you? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 215 Mirza Nasir Ahmad (Witness, Head of the Ahmadiyya Community, Rabwah): Yes, I will explain it. Yesterday, I submitted, as the righteous predecessors and elders have clarified, that "faith is of two kinds; faith has degrees, and disbelief is of two kinds; disbelief also has degrees." Ibn Taymiyyah is a very famous scholar of ours and is considered an Imam by the Ahl-e-Hadith. He writes in his book, Kitab al-Iman: الكفر كفران احدهما ينكل عن المله و الاخر لا ينكل عن الملته- "There are two types of disbelief. One type of disbelief expels from the Muslim community, and the other type of disbelief does not expel from the Muslim community." The disbelief that does not expel from the Muslim community is still disbelief, and we, meaning it does not expel from the Muslim community, but in the Ahmadiyya community's parlance, it expels from the circle of Islam. The circle of Islam is different, and the Muslim community is different. So, for the disbelief that expels from the circle of Islam but does not expel from the Muslim community, we should base the political definition on the sayings of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). And the disbelief that expels from the Muslim community, such as denying the Kalima Tayyiba... after denying the Kalima Tayyiba... ... one no longer remains in the Muslim community. The question of the circle of Islam does not arise; one no longer remains in the Muslim community itself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, if... shall I ask, or you want to complete this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Shall I ask you further questions? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. 216 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, if a Muslim, as I submitted yesterday, accepts all the Prophets but does not accept Hazrat Isa as a Nabi, in which category does he come, a kafir? Outside (the circle of the nation) or outside Daera-e-Millat (the circle of Islam) Daera-e-Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will divide those people who deny the prophethood of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) into two categories. First, those who do not know that the Holy Quran demands that his prophethood be acknowledged. The general public does not even know how to read the Holy Quran. If any of them thinks that denying Isa (peace be upon him) is not a big deal, then such a person, due to lack of knowledge, due to being uneducated, who denies the prophethood of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) does not leave the Millat-e-Islamia, although he does leave the circle of Islam. But a person who stands before God and rebels, declares like "Abay Wastakbara" and says that I know that the Holy Quran demands from us to believe in all the previous prophets and the Holy Quran itself explains along with this demand that among the prophets (peace be upon them) are those who are mentioned by name in the Holy Quran and those who are not mentioned in the Holy Quran. So, in general, we believe in every prophet who has come, and in detail, we believe in all the prophets whose names have come in the Holy Quran, who rebel by adopting a rebellious way as a result of Abay Wastakbara, that God commands to accept Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) as a prophet, I do not accept, then he is out of the Millat-e-Islamia. But the first category is not out of the Millat-e-Islamia, it is out of the circle of Islam. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 217 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Those Muslims who do not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet, are they also of two categories? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are also of two categories. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the same way? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely. Meaning, there are those about whom we sometimes have doubts, but we are only human, not knowers of the unseen, that they have understood but are insisting on denial. If they are truly like that, then they are outside the Muslim community. But those who do not have this knowledge and are denying, they are outside the circle of Islam but not outside the Muslim community. That is why our founder of the order, and your representatives at that time—the third representative is sitting here now—none of us have ever, anywhere, even once, called those whom people generally refer to as non-Ahmadis, non-Muslims. We have never said it. It does not exist in our literature that they are non-Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does non-Muslim mean outside the community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, meaning it has never been said, not even once. They are not outside the Muslim community, but they are outside the circle of Islam. We make these two distinctions; we are differentiating between these two. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there any difference in your relations with these two categories, or do you maintain the same relations with both? Two categories of disbelievers: one is outside the community, and one is outside the circle of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. August 10th, 1979 Mr. Beechy Bakhtiar: Are your relations with both of them the same or different? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I understand, I understand the question. They are different. With one, we have a relationship of humanity, which should be between human and human, because the relationship of human and human is not a relationship of nation. It is a relationship that is not of nation, but the Holy Quran has emphasized and established this relationship: Say, "I am only a man like you." In that... in this, all humans are addressed, and they have relationships with each other in their human values. Some are established by reason, and truly, fundamentally, by Islam. Those who choose a rebellious path and deny, and in our view, are excluded from the Muslim community, our relations with them are human and human relations. Those are also relations of love and affection. But those who are not excluded from the Muslim community but are outside the circle of Islam, we have very deep relations with them. We have so much love for them in our hearts. The founder of the Ahmadiyya series created by the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), so we also have love and longing in our hearts for them. You said: O heart, take care of them too When my prophet claims infidels So this is the difference between the two. Mr. Yaki Bakhtiar, I want to draw your attention to a writing or speech by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Sahib. He says that: 219 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah) only deemed permissible the same treatment of non-Ahmadis as the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did with Christians. Our prayers were separated from non-Ahmadis. Giving them daughters was declared forbidden. We were forbidden from attending their funerals. What is left for us to do with them now? There are two types of relationships: one religious and the other worldly. The biggest source of religious relations is to gather for worship, and the heaviest source of worldly relations is marriage. So, both of these are forbidden for us. If you say that we are allowed to take their daughters, then I say that we are also allowed to take the daughters of Christians. And if you say, why are non-Ahmadis greeted with "peace be upon you," then the answer is that it is proven by Hadith that sometimes the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) even returned the greetings of Jews. (Review of Religion, Page 129) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, what is the question? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am submitting that this relationship, which they have said is completely non-existent, is it for both categories or one category of those whom they consider infidels, non-Ahmadis? The word is not even used. The word, Sir, is not used - Kafir - at all. Non-Ahmadi, who does not accept Mirza ...... Ghulam Ahmad. Non-Ahmadi Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, non-Ahmadi, I said, falls into two categories. These are the ones who are in the first category, who adopt a rebellious attitude and, after knowing and understanding that the founder of the series is truthful in his claim, still deny it. 220 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In other words, Sir,......... say. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But not regarding the non-Ahmadis who are in the other category. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In other words, you allow your girls to marry the other categories of non-Ahmadis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, their... the word 'allow' ... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean you have no objection. I could put it that way. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that should be clarified. Our objection is based on the fact that a fatwa has been issued against us that their girls should not be taken. And the Wahhabi or Barelvi or Deobandi or Ahl-e-Hadith or Ahl-e-Quran who marries an Ahmadi girl against their fatwa, our experience is that the lives of both become bitter, both that Wahhabi husband and that Ahmadi girl, that is why we object. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not as a matter of faith but as a matter of expediency you refuse? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not Sharia. This fatwa, one is a fatwa of Sharia... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If these scholars did not give a fatwa. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not a Sharia fatwa, like this, this is a question of marriage: "A person (i.e., the founder of this sect, I am saying this on my own behalf) this person is an apostate and it is forbidden for the people of Islam to have any connection with such a person. Similarly, those who believe in him are also infidels and their marriages are no longer valid. Anyone can marry their women." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 221 So, after these fatwas, the affection and good treatment in married life, the society and circumstances that arise, cannot happen. Therefore, this is not a Sharia fatwa. But object - we to it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You object to it because relations will not be happy. But if an Ahmadi marries a non-Ahmadi girl, the relations will be all right? It will be happy? Further it is.. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we don't like............ No, no.. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is what Mirza Sahib says That like Christians, they can also marry their girls. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It would be happier than that in the previous case. Because our Ahmadi youth, we expect from him. It is not necessary that he fulfills our expectation, we expect from him that he will fulfill all the rights of his wife that Islam has imposed on him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you don't expect this from non-Ahmadis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: After this fatwa, I do not expect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Sahib! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And note the reference for this fatwa So that it is on Isha'at al-Sunnah, Volume 13, page 5. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, both categories of Muslims, as far as marriage is concerned, will be treated like Christians? 222 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 6th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As far as marriage is concerned, the first category is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They will be treated like Christians. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What about the second category? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no Sharia fatwa on the second category. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not Sharia, but in fact, you don't? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no Sharia fatwa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What about prayers? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding prayers, they have given this fatwa as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing there is no Fatwa at all; but what is your faith, what is your belief? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, why suppose a thing which does not exist? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, Sir, supposing there had been no Fatwa at all... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In that realm of unreality you might issue any Fatwa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why suppose unreality? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but you think that the only reason is Fatwa? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My mind is very weak. I can only imagine unreal things. City of Islam CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 223 happening. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I request you again, firstly if there was no fatwa... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If there was no fatwa, then the situation would not have been like this. And if there was no fatwa, then these marriages, funerals, offering prayers, these situations would not have occurred. These fatwas initiated and then created all these situations. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Otherwise, you have no objection in terms of belief? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our belief is that those who issue such fatwas... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if they don't issue fatwas? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If they don't issue fatwas and they... then his treatment will be different with him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you are saying that the person who issues a fatwa... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The person who issues a fatwa or who silently supports it and... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the same treatment with the one who does not issue a fatwa? Or different? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, you confuse the issue. One is a fatwa. A person does not issue a fatwa but follows the mufti, and you are separating these two. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will put it in a different way: If a person is not aware of Fatwa, but he believes it is his faith....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has blind faith in his religious leader who has issued the Fatwa. 224 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 6th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, not in the Maulvi, Sir. What I was submitting is that a Muslim feels and he has his faith that after Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, the Holy Prophet Muhammad, no other Prophet of any category or kind can come. This is his........... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that, he has never even heard of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, he never heard of any Fatwa........... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We can't say after these past two months that he never heard of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think perhaps everyone, suppose Quaid-e-Azam never heard... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Quaid-e-Azam never heard about these Fatwas... his faith was that one other Prophet would come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He had such deep relations with the Ahmadis that your supposition is wrong in my opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm talking about the Fatwas. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am also talking about the Fatwas. Abdul Hameed Badayuni Sahib, Hamid Badayuni Sahib discussed this matter with him in the Lahore meeting and you say that he was not aware? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did he issue a Fatwa? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 225 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, they presented the resolution. They presented the resolution. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Quaid-e-Azam? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, Hamid Badayuni Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, he issued a fatwa. Did Quaid-e-Azam also issue any fatwa? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: They presented this resolution in front of Quaid-e-Azam, that's why Quaid-e-Azam Sahib was aware of their views. At the moment, we are only discussing whether he was aware or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You think he supported it? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I think he did not issue any fatwa against this fatwa of disbelief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, if a person cannot hear, cannot see... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In our language, we call him "Mawqu Al-Qalam." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you say the same about him, that he did not repudiate? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We call him "Marfoo Al-Qalam." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does he also fall into the category of disbelievers? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: ... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He did not accept. 226 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 6th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is exempt from responsibility. No religious ruling applies to him, the one who is mad, whose condition is like this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The person who... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no accountability. Islam says that Allah Almighty will not hold him accountable at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if there is a child, six years old, two years old, six months old, then he cannot repudiate the edict. A small child, six months old... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: On both sides.......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...........he cannot repudiate; he is not capable of repudiation .. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is obvious. Children follow the religion of their parents. When they become adults, if they then repudiate, they separate from the religion of their parents, and if they do not, they continue with them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I will ask you another question, if you don't mind. In tribal society, a brother is responsible for the sins and crime of his brother but, in Islam and in civilized society, I am responsible for my crime, for my sin, and not for my brother's crime or my brother's sin. Is it correct or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No one will bear the burden of another. Every person is accountable for their own deeds before Allah Almighty, the Holy Quran says. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if the child's father has committed the sin of not accepting..... from your point of view.......... Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as Nabi ........ CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad and he in his house... 227 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: his six-month-old child, are you punishing him also for the sin of his father? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we won't punish the boy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has not Mirza Bashir-ud-din said: "Do not even offer his funeral prayer, just like the funeral prayer of Christian children is not offered." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not offering the funeral prayer is not a punishment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But why? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not a punishment; I tell you why. According to the consensus of the Imams of jurisprudence, the funeral prayer is a communal obligation. It is not obligatory; it is a communal obligation. And in jurisprudence, a communal obligation refers to the obligation that, if a few people from the Muslim community fulfill, then no one is sinful. If five or ten people offer the funeral prayer for that child, then those who do not offer the funeral prayer are not committing any sin. This is the verdict of our jurisprudence, and a unanimous verdict. How can something that is not a sin become a punishment? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question was: the way you treat Muslims of different categories, who don't belong to Ahmadis' school of thought, any distinction do you make between the two categories - those who are outside the circle of Islam and those who are outside the Muslim community? You have clarified these two categories. I ask, in what sense do you... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (Aug 6th, 1974) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The explanation I gave for these two categories, that was just a tenth part, the rest is still remaining. Would you like to hear that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We are here because we want the issue to be clarified. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This was about offering prayers, right? Now listen to the remaining nine parts, or more or less. This is a fatwa: These fatwas are not just from the scholars of India, but when the statements of Wahhabiyah Deobandiyah were translated and sent, then Afghanistan, Khiva, Bukhara, Iran, Egypt, Rome, Syria and Mecca, Medina, and all other Arab lands, Kufa, Baghdad Sharif, in short, all the scholars of the world of Sunni faith, unanimously gave this fatwa: The fatwa is: The Wahhabiyah Deobandiyah, in their buildings, insult and mock all the saints, prophets, even the leader of the first and the last, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), and especially the Being of God, are absolutely apostates and infidels, and their apostasy has reached the most severe, most extreme degree of infidelity. So much so that anyone who doubts the apostasy and infidelity of these apostates and infidels, is also an apostate and infidel like them, and whoever doubts the infidelity of the one who doubts, is also an apostate and infidel. Muslims should completely avoid and abstain from them. Let alone praying behind them, they should not let them pray behind them either, nor let them enter their mosques, nor eat their slaughtered animals, nor participate in their weddings or funerals. Nor should they let them come to their homes. These are sick. If they are sick, then do not visit them. If they die, then do not participate in burying them. Do not give them space in the graveyards of Muslims. In short, maintain complete caution and avoidance from them. So the Wahabi and Deobandi, Mr. Chairman: It is already in the Mahzar Nama, it need not be read; it is part of Mahzar Nama at page......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question is repeated. Mr. Chairman: ....... at page 154 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I beg ..... Mr. Chairman: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: to submit that I may be allowed to repeat. ........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, if he wants to emphasize that, 1 have no objection, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you repeat the question, I will have to repeat the answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Certainly, Certainly. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "So the Wahabi Deobandis are very, very, extremely apostate and infidel, so much so that whoever does not call them infidels will himself become an infidel. His wife will be out of his marriage, and the children born will be illegitimate. And according to Sharia, they will not inherit the estate." Among the scholars whose names are in this advertisement, a few are: Syed Jamaat Ali Shah Sahib, Hamid Raza Sahib Qadri Noori Rizvi Barelvi, Muhammad Karam Deen, Muhammad Jameel Ahmed Badayuni, etc. There are many scholars' names. 230 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 This is also a side of the picture. The same fatwa applies to their children, about which you want me to clarify. And this is much stricter than that. And these are many references. I am leaving all of them so that time is not wasted. It has already come here. Regarding offering prayers behind the Ahl-e-Hadith, the Barelvi Imams warn us in unambiguous words that: "The Wahhabis and other contemporary followers are apostates and infidels according to the consensus of the scholars of the two Holy Mosques. Such that whoever, upon learning of their cursed statements, does not consider them infidels or even doubts them is himself an infidel. Prayers behind them are invalid. The animal slaughtered by them is Haram. Their wives are out of the bond of marriage, and they cannot marry any Muslim, infidel, or apostate. Socializing, eating, drinking, sitting, greeting, and talking with them are all Haram. Their detailed rulings are present in the esteemed book "Hussam-ul-Haramain Sharif." This is being mentioned about prayers concerning Ahl-e-Hadith, offering prayers behind them. I am leaving the rest of its references. As far as the question of offering prayers behind Barelvis is concerned, the Deobandi scholars narrate this Sharia ruling to us: "Whoever proves the knowledge of the unseen for someone other than Allah Almighty, and considers someone else's knowledge equal to that of Allah Almighty, is undoubtedly an infidel. His Imamate and socializing, loving, and befriending him are all Haram." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 231 This Fatwa Rasheedia is by Hazrat Molvi Rasheed Ahmed Sahib Gangohi, who is their mentor; this is his fatwa. And I am only presenting one fatwa at a time so that I can clarify the matter. This fatwa concerns praying behind Pervezis and Chakralvis: "Chakralvis deny the status and position of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and his interpretive authority, and are staunch enemies of his blessed hadiths. These outright rebels against the Holy Prophet ﷺ have established a strong front against the Messenger. Do you know what the punishment for a rebel is? Only a bullet." Regarding Shia gentlemen, can prayers be offered behind them or not: "In general, the certain, definitive, and unanimous ruling regarding these Rafizi Tabarra'i is that they are generally apostates. Animals slaughtered by their hands are carrion. Marriage with them is not only forbidden but pure fornication. God forbid, if the man is Rafizi and the woman is Muslim, it is a severe divine punishment. Even if the man is Sunni and the woman is from these vile people, the marriage will never be valid; it will be pure fornication. The offspring will be illegitimate. The child will not inherit from the father, even if the offspring is Sunni because, religiously, the illegitimate child has no father. The woman will not be entitled to inheritance or dower because there is no dower for an adulteress. A Rafizi cannot inherit from any relative, even their own father, son, mother, or daughter. A Sunni, let alone any Muslim, or even any infidel, has absolutely no right to their inheritance, not even from their co-religionist Rafizi. Association, greetings, or conversation with any of them, men, women, scholars, or ignorant, is strictly forbidden, a major sin. Anyone who, being aware of their accursed beliefs, still considers them Muslim or doubts their being infidels, is, by the consensus of all religious leaders, himself an infidel and irreligious, and the same rulings apply to him as 232 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug., 1974 ...were mentioned for them. It is the duty of a Muslim to listen to this Fatwa with complete awareness and act upon it to become true and staunch Sunni Muslims." (Fatwa of Maulana Shah Mustafa Raza Khan - Referenced from Risala Rau al-Rafza) These have been included in that. The question here is not why an Ahmadi doesn't pray behind Wahabis, Deobandis, etc., or why their marriages are considered invalid. There are much harsher Fatwas than these. Therefore, a decision should be made by considering all of them together. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I ask you, do you not say prayer because of the Fatwa or because of the matter of your own faith? Because if I don't accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as Nabi .......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Fatwas that I have read do not even raise the question of believing or not believing in a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking, in which category of Fatwas do you consider them? The ones that completely expel them from the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They will tell you that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to your perspective? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These Fatwas that I have read? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those who issued the Fatwas, how can I say what they do? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But what you are studying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I have studied, that is my reasoning. God Almighty has given me intellect; I am firm in the belief that they are not bound by my reasoning. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION. 233 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they are not bound, but from your point of view, do they fall outside the circle of Islam or the Muslim community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My mind tends towards optimism. Therefore, my mind goes towards the fact that in their view also, they fall outside the circle of Islam, but not outside the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what kind of accusations have the scholars made about your piety, about the Ahmadiyya community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The scholars who are sitting, you... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From your point of view... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I cannot say anything. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do they consider you outside the circle of Islam or...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They will tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Outside the Muslim community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How can I tell about them? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you said that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have spoken about the others because I had no connection with them. When I talk about myself, it will be understood that I am prejudiced against........ in favor of myself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Sir, you said yesterday that the Fatwa boomerangs. Now........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My general idea is that to give rationality to this, to give a color of rationality, and to keep the fabric of Islam united, we... 234 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 side, we should be inclined towards the fact that these fatwas exclude from the circle of Islam, not from the Muslim community, regarding us as well as among ourselves. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I again want to ask because this reply was not clear to me as to why the Janaza prayer of a child of six months......... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The funeral prayer of a child. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That is not obligatory at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, not obligatory. Will the Ahmadis recite the prayer for a child? They say: do not recite it, treat it like the Christians do, like the Hindus do. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no. Regarding the reference you are giving, I neither refute it, nor confirm it, because until I see the original. I think you will honestly agree with me that I should neither confirm nor refute it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's right, if you deny it, then there is no question of it arising. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, I neither confirm nor deny it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you confirm it, then I will say something. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I neither confirm nor deny it until I refer to the original. (Interruption) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 235 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, you can verify it. Otherwise, we can present it before you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, you can definitely present it. It is your right. Who is taking it away from you? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I draw your attention to the collection of speeches and addresses of Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mohammad Ahmad Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is its name? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anwar Khilafat: page 93 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: page 93: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Page? "Now another question arises that non-Ahmadis are deniers of the Promised Messiah. Therefore, their funeral prayers should not be offered." Now, Sir, here I will respectfully say that no question of Fatwa has come. Here is a clear injunction on them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "But if a young child of a non-Ahmadi dies, why should their funeral prayer not be offered? They are not deniers of the Promised Messiah." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Not deniers." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Sorry, I don't know. I ask the one who asks this question, if this is true, then why are the funeral prayers of Hindu and Christian children not offered, and how many people are there who... 230 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug., 1974 Do they recite his funeral prayer? The main point is that the religion of the parents is what the Sharia considers the religion of the child to be. So the child of a non-Ahmadi is also a non-Ahmadi. Therefore, his funeral prayer should not be offered. Then I say that a child is not a sinner. What is the need for his funeral prayer? The child's funeral prayer is a prayer for his bereaved family. And his bereaved are not ours but non-Ahmadis. Therefore, the child's funeral prayer should not be offered. As for a person who believes Hazrat Sahib to be truthful but has not yet taken the oath of allegiance or is considering its importance and dies in this state, then he is gone. It is possible that Allah Almighty may not punish him, but the Sharia's fatwa is according to the apparent circumstances. Therefore, we should also do this regarding him that his funeral prayer should not be offered. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, this is a part of the reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. This question was asked by Justice Munir himself in the inquiry from Hazrat Khalifa Sani (may Allah be pleased with him), and I will recite the answer he gave: "Did you say on page 53 of 'Anwar Khilafat'?" Next is the same excerpt that you read. Answer: Yes. But I said this because non-Ahmadi scholars had issued a fatwa that the children of Ahmadis should not be allowed to be buried in Muslim cemeteries either. The fact is that the corpses of Ahmadi women and children were dug up from the graves and taken out. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 237 were thrown away. Since their fatwa still stands, my fatwa also stands. However, we have now received a fatwa from the Pai series, according to which it is possible that after deliberation, the previous fatwa may be amended. Regarding the fact that Ahmadi children were not buried, this is from August 20, 1915, Al-Fazl, October 19, 1915. This incident that happened regarding the child, that incident is: A small child of a K.S. Hasan, an Ahmadi from Malabar, passed away. The Raja Sahib of the state ordered that since the Qazi Sahib has issued a fatwa of disbelief against the Ahmadis, their bodies cannot be buried in any Muslim cemetery. Therefore, that child was not buried that day. The next day, near evening, his body was buried two miles away from the Muslim cemetery. And now, just recently, a girl died in Gujranwala, and she was not allowed to be buried. An Ahmadi died in Quaidabad, he was not allowed to be buried, and the grave was dug up and the body was thrown out. In these circumstances, what should the fatwa be, you tell me? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am not talking about a fatwa. If one person makes a mistake, is the answer that the other person should also make a mistake? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If one person makes a mistake, it becomes the duty of the other person not to fall into sedition and to save others from sedition as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, is offering funeral prayers for a child equivalent to falling into sedition? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When they say, "Do not offer our funeral prayers behind us," they are not telling us, they have also told the Shias that no Shia should offer our funeral prayers. The thing is, whatever... 238 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug, 1974 It has been said against each other, the issue is resolved by keeping everything in front. That is, even the Shia were told not to offer prayers behind us, and not to let anyone offer prayers behind them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Christians and Hindus have not issued any fatwas against you? No, the question arises. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Hold on. Have Christians and Hindus not issued any fatwas against Muslims in the last fourteen hundred years? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, particularly against you? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We are Muslims. If they have issued fatwa after fatwa against Islam in the last fourteen hundred years, have you all forgotten that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So do you treat them and the rest of the Muslims in the same category? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We treat ourselves and the rest of the Muslims in the same category as far as the fatwas of Hindus and Christians are concerned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. As far as prayers, burial, and funerals are concerned, do you consider the rest of the Muslims and the Christians and the Hindus in the same category? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, they are not one in the form of not offering prayers religiously and according to Sharia. Not one according to Sharia fatwa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! My question was, as far as relations are concerned, what is the difference between you and non-Muslims and Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I will tell you the difference. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 239 clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As far as marriage is concerned, you said it cannot happen. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I will tell you the difference regarding funerals, the big Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Worship cannot happen. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding the funeral, this is my, the third Caliph of the Ahmadiyya community's fatwa, that the funeral is Fard Kifaya, and since the other Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahl-e-Hadith and other sects have issued this fatwa that they should not pray behind us, nor should they lead the prayer, therefore we should avoid discord and should not pray. But think about the statement after "but". A Muslim was traveling in an airplane when the plane landed in Denmark and he had passed away on the plane. And there, except for the Ahmadis, there was no one to offer the funeral prayer. And they made a mistake there. And when the matter reached me, I was very angry, and Mets, who is from Denmark, converted to Islam from Christianity and is now an Ahmadi, he was the first to tell me that this incident had happened. I told him that this was a great injustice. Because the Promised Messiah (peace be upon him) has instilled so much love for the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in our hearts that no person who is associated with the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) will be left without care. And if such an incident occurs, it is the duty of Ahmadis to offer the funeral prayer. But we do not have this fatwa regarding Christians, and this is the difference between these two fatwas. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Have you amended this? 240 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 6, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I didn't amend it, when the first incident happened, I highlighted it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Clarified? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, highlighting is one thing, amending is another. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, in which category do you put persons who belong to Lahori school of thought, what they call, who........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. I think I clarified this earlier. I don't remember. Everyone who calls himself Ahmadi is an Ahmadi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if he does not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a prophet, but a Muhaddith? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When he says he is Ahmadi, then he is Ahmadi. The person who calls himself a Muslim is a Muslim. He is within the larger circle. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but you them.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How do they call themselves Ahmadi? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, will they not bring that category into it? Which category of blasphemy? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, they will come into the category of blasphemy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this, right... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, they will not be excluded from the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But will they be excluded from the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our opinion, they are excluded from the circle of Islam. But not at all excluded from the Muslim community. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is why there is a difference. They are also Ahmadis in our view. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am asking because they have not issued any fatwa against you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They have not issued a fatwa against us. They... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only denied it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are among those who had more opportunities to understand the position of the founder of the order than others. That is the difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, but they have only denied it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They have denied it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have not issued a fatwa of disbelief against you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They have not issued a fatwa of disbelief. No, that is another thing. One is issuing a fatwa of disbelief. One is denying it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is what I was saying, that there are two categories of disbelief. You were saying that we call them disbelievers because they issued fatwas. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, there are two reasons, not two categories. That is, more than two reasons for considering them part of the Muslim community despite excommunicating them from the circle of Islam, two different reasons. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, whatever the reasons may be, but this that... 242 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There are two reasons. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying in categories because one is outside the circle of Islam, the other is outside the Muslim community. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in that respect, those who are non-sympathizers, and others who, due to ignorance and as a result of pride and arrogance, are deniers, they are not outside the circle, they are not outside the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Both? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But these are Ahmadis too. I am telling you that we do not say to them, just because, for example, they did not pledge allegiance to the Caliphate or they did not understand all the claims, we do not say to them that you have left Ahmadiyyat. We call them Ahmadis. This helps in understanding. We both are Muslims... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am saying this, the position is becoming clear to me because you have given one reason that since the Muslim scholars... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Gave fatwas. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Gave fatwas, because of which their... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The loot came upon them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You gave these fatwas that do not offer prayers with them, do not marry into their families... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But this is the second... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But this second category is also there... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 243 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But this second reason that you started with, that if someone does not believe in Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him), then what is the matter? So, I had said that two possibilities arise from it. It also becomes a part of their form. It falls into their share. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I say that is it only because of this reason? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is only because of this reason. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, only because of this reason? Not because of the fatwas? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It becomes known from this that the second reason for infidelity is also of the same type. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But both reasons that exist, the remaining Muslims have also issued fatwas and denials. They are outside the circle of Islam, not outside the community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But the result of both comes out to be the same. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The result is the same? And here, if only (Interruption) I have said the same thing, Mr. Mirza, that even if there were no fatwas, the result would be the same. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the result would be the same. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That he who does not accept Mr. Mirza as a prophet, denies him, he is a kafir (infidel)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Call it a lesser category, call it a milder category. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If... no, no, the "lesser infidelity," we say that he is not outside the Muslim community, he is a Muslim, outside the circle of Islam. But the position that they take... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Aug 6, 1974 244 have, we have relations with them, different ones. They say that we understand that despite this difference, one should offer prayers behind Ahmadis. So we say that there is no restriction that an Ahmadi should not offer prayers behind a Deobandi, but the conditions that Islam has laid down regarding Imamate should be fulfilled, those are imposed by the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). And we say that they say that it is permissible to offer funeral prayers for Ahmadis, despite their denial. So we say that it is also permissible to offer funeral prayers for them, funeral prayers are permissible. These are further details. It doesn't all add up to one conclusion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I was just asking that as far as they are concerned, they have not issued a fatwa, but they are also in the same category. In which the rest of the Muslims are, from your point of view? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, with this difference that we will call them Ahmadis and the rest we will not call Ahmadis. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The label doesn't make any difference, does it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it makes a big difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Ahmadis, they call themselves... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If we say, for example, the difference is like this. That for instance, if we say that you are not Ahmadis, then this would be our unreasonable aggressiveness. So this is the difference that has occurred. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, sir, I say that as far as treatment is concerned. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 245 Mirza Nasir Ahmed Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, as far as treatment is concerned, prayers can be offered behind them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You will offer prayers behind them? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Funeral prayers are also offered. This is the difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not the case with other Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I have just told you the edicts about other Muslims not offering funeral prayers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you have told me that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That is the difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If a person, if an individual... there are many Muslims in our country and in the world who, when you ask them if they belong to a sect, say that they do not belong to any sect, they are simply Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Mr. Mirza, the position is that you can offer prayers behind someone who denies the prophethood of Mirza Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We offer prayers behind those who deny. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We are practically doing so. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. And not behind those who have issued edicts? 246 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 16th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, that's how it turned out, yes, that's how it turned out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was that why prayers were not offered behind Quaid-e-Azam? His funeral prayers were not offered because someone had given decrees, and he didn't repudiate them? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, our Quaid-e-Azam did a great service to Pakistan and the Muslims of this region. May Allah reward him. He was Shia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, we considered him a Muslim. You... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: You may think so. But there are such big decrees of sects, such thick books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I know so much about sects that when I was a student in London. All Muslims gathered together in the Islamic Cultural Center. Shia, Sunni, Deobandi, Wahabi, Chakralvi except Ahmadis, And I was shocked, and I could not understand. That explanation I want to know. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The explanation for that is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Funeral in absentia? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, no. The explanation for that is of a completely different nature. Until now, there is no Ahmadi who has separated from the community and is drifting in the air (inaudible), like a kite that gets cut off. But among Wahabis, Deobandis, Barelvis, there are thousands, millions of people who have separated from their jurisprudence and decrees. But you say that I have been going on tours there. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 247 People from different Arabic-speaking countries all over the world come to our mosques and participate in Eid celebrations and prayers. There is no disagreement visible there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir. After the death of Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan, after his martyrdom, again, in Quetta, there was a funeral prayer in absentia. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I mentioned that earlier... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: All the Muslims of Quetta town got together and said prayers, but Ahmadis kept aloof. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Quaid-e-Azam was Shia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Liaquat Ali was not Shia. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I mean... No, he must have belonged to some other sect. My point is that if someone ascribes himself to a sect, it is not our right to say that he ascribes himself to the Shia sect but is completely unfamiliar with their beliefs. It is not my right. And I don't think it's anyone else's right either. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, when we assume the best of them and don't consider them rebels of our own sect, and the fatwa of the sect is that prayers should not be offered. So those who did offer, ask them, "You have issued these fatwas regarding the Shias, and you are not acting on them, explain this." There is no question of any explanation from us. We, right or wrong, stand firm on one belief and will do so until the Day of Judgment... 248 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 6, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say that someone issued a fatwa in the heat of some action or in some matter, so who takes it seriously? They will say this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These Fatwa Rashidia are from long before the elections, fatwas. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm talking, for example. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, so you can bring that example from somewhere else. Bakhtiar: Meaning, as far as relationships are concerned... treatment, Shia Sunni, among themselves, they did not issue fatwas that they cannot marry girls. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How loving is our relationship. You asked me in this regard, and I told you that I was a principal for a very long time. Regardless of whether the child was Ahmadi or not, I had my own theory regarding my responsibilities as a principal. I have stayed by the bedside of a child in the boarding school until two o'clock at night, who became seriously ill, and he had nothing to do with the Jamaat. I had Jamaat-e-Islami students get their B.A.s in 1952-53 by giving them scholarships and providing all kinds of facilities, and they were involved in those groups in the riots. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's fine, Mirza Sahib! As a matter of kindness, you do it to a Hindu, a Christian, a Jew, who is an able boy and a deserving boy; somebody is ill, somebody needs your help, that is humanity. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And where did that humanity go for those who burned and looted hundreds of houses and shops and killed people? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No one defends them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who raised their voice? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there isn't anyone.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who raised their voice against them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, thirteen (13) children with minor injuries. Does this lead to the result that hundreds of houses and shops should be burned down? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, absolutely not, I agree with you, they should be punished... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...they should or should not...? Ch. Jehangir Ali: Mr. Chairman, Sir, may I draw your attention? No discussion should take place between questions and their answers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Shall we adjourn? And then we......... Mr. Chairman: Yes, we adjourn to meet again at 12:00. twenty-five minutes' break. The delegation is permitted to withdraw. The honorable members may keep sitting. 250 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 16th Aug, 1974 (The delegation withdrew from the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: The Special Committee of the House is adjourned for the break, upto 12.00. EVASIVE OR INCORRECT REPLIES BY THE WITNESS Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: The way it is going.... Mr. Chairman: Yes? Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: The way the discussion is going. Mr. Chairman: Yes? Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: My request is that after asking a question, an effort should be made to get their answer. Mr. Chairman: I will request the Attorney-General to be attentive. Muhammad Haneef Khan, just a minute. Attorney- General being........yes. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: I was requesting that when we ask a question, they sidetrack it, evade it, and start narrating many other things. There is a need to consider how much we should extend a single question and how much we should... Mr. Chairman: The answer should be taken. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: But there is another thing in this, the way they have told, Mr. Jafar Sahib, these recent events came up that children were slaughtered, the Denmark incident I know is completely wrong... Mr. Chairman: These are not......... EVASIVE OR INCORRECT REPLIES BY THE WITNESS 251 Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: There is no incident like that. Something is appearing on the record, which has not been refuted. So, I would request that it should be looked into a bit. He should be asked about the Denmark incident, when it happened, where it happened, who the woman was, and where it was published? Because I know that there myself, that there are countless Muslims and only a few Ahmadis. Later, when it was found out, people cut ties with them, because of this, these incidents come on record, then the listener thinks that maybe this is true. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I said everything will be on the record. The members are judges. They will see, they will form their own opinion, they can draw their own inferences. But if, at this stage when the witness is giving evidence, anybody tries to stop him, that will give an excuse that the National Assembly of Pakistan did not give him a proper hearing, he was stopped from answering questions. So, it does not matter if it takes a little more time. We should bear, put up with that. That is my request. Professor Ghafoor Ahmad: The incident of Denmark - he may be asked to give documentary evidence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know, Sir, because he is avoiding; and that the record will show; and you are the judges. I have asked the question again and again, and again and again he avoided the reply because he has got no reply. And you know that but let the record speak for itself. But if we stop him or the Chairman stops him, then he can have a legitimate excuse that the National Assembly did not give him a proper hearing. It is a very important issue. So, it makes no difference. I get tired, you get tired, but we stay for a day more. Let him talk; let him say whatever he wants to say. Already he has made a grievance that he wanted to submit a further statement but sufficient time was not given. So, my request is: let us put up with him. Let him say whatever he wants. 252 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: Ch. Jehangir Ali's, suggestion may also be kept in view. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Sir!... Mr. Chairman, Sir, I, just a second - Ch. Jehangir Ali's suggestion may also be kept in view. He has also suggested certain things. The honourable member can talk to the Attorney-General recess ✓ just in recess. Talk to him. Yes, Maulana Nematullah! Maulvi Nematullah: Sir, the submission is that the Attorney General told him that you did not offer the funeral prayer for Quaid-e-Azam, so until he gives the correct answer to this, until then... Inaudible Mr. Chairman: He has answered that he was Shia. They say, he said that according to our belief we stand by our belief and Shia Maulvi Nematullah: He started talking about irrelevant things and we did not hear what the answer was. Mr. Chairman: No, no, the answer has come, the answer has come. Maulvi Nematullah: He should have answered that this is the matter, this is the matter, this is the matter. Until it is known in detail, what can we do? Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Sir! Mr. Chairman: Maulana Mufti Mahmood! Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: When there was mention of the fatwa of Takfir, there was mention of the funeral prayer, then he made two categories. After that he recited various phrases and EVASIVE OR INCORRECT REPLIES BY THE WITNESS 253 He kept reading all the statements about the issue of Takfir among the sects of Muslims. That was completely irrelevant to the question. So, when they say something completely irrelevant to the question, they should at least be stopped from [talking about] the question. Mr. Chairman: If he (Attorney General) raises an objection, then I will take action against it. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi! Maulana Ghous Bakhsh Hazarvi: Mr. President..... Mr. Chairman: The question about Khan Liaquat Ali is still pending. Regarding Quaid-e-Azam, he said that because he was Shia, that is why we did not read his funeral prayers. Maulvi Nematullah: No, we did not get to know in detail. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I asked about Quaid-i-Azam; he said he was Shia. Then I asked: What about Nawabzada Liaqat Ali Khan? His reply was the same to that. I am coming to that. Mr. Chairman: Yes, he is coming to that now. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Liaquat Ali was Sunni. They don't read his either, his too. There must be some sect after all. Liaquat Ali Khan was Sunni, they don't read his either. Mr. Chairman: He is pin-pointing them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am asking him more questions about that, about the prayers and the funeral of Quaid-e-Azam, I am asking more questions. Mr. Chairman: Okay, Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi! 254 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Sir! I have a little hesitation about whether what is happening is absolutely correct? There is no doubt that they should be given a chance, and the question should not arise that we were not given a chance, we were not given time, or we did not get a chance to defend ourselves. But the question is, when they said that the funeral prayer of a Muslim child cannot be offered, do you offer the funeral prayer of a Christian child? Now this was a question, I gave it in writing, it was whether the order not to offer the funeral prayer of a Muslim child is like a Christian child, do you, according to both categories, exclude that Muslim from Islam and the nation or not? The question is whether Christians are excluded from both... Mr. Chairman: Mr. Enayat-ur-Rehman Abbasi! Sardar Enayat-ur-Rehman Khan Abbasi: Yes sir! One I... Excluded. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Christians, I submit, they exclude from both. From the nation and from Islam... Mr. Chairman: Maulana! You can debate on this. You can debate on this. The witness's answer has arrived. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Secondly, I would like to submit that when he made this statement. Mr. Chairman: These are matters of debate. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: That scholars of such and such places have issued fatwas against the scholars of Deoband... Mr. Chairman: Maulana! These are matters of debate. The things we discuss at the moment, in recess, are about procedure, about regulations. These matters of debate, which are your arguments... EVASIVE OR INCORRECT REPLIES BY THE WITNESS 255 The things that are or the questions that are, you will say in your statement or tell the Attorney General. Yes, it is that if there is any kind of disagreement to anyone in the code. Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi: Sir, in this regard... Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: In any case, about the fatwas that he presented... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: False accusations were made against the scholars of Deoband. Its answer... Mr. Chairman: Yes, Maulana! This is a matter of debate. Here, we will only talk about the code right now. You will debate this in your speech. Yes. (Intervention) Mr. Chairman: What can I do? Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi: This is what I...this is what I... Mr. Chairman: Stop them then. Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi: This is what I was about to request, sir! That after all this proceedings, will there be debate and discussion on it? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi: So when there is a debate, it is the right of every member. If he has misrepresented the Denmark incident. Mr. Chairman: Yes, this, this thing, Abbasi Sahib! I am saying it myself. 256 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Sardar Inayat-ur-Rehman Khan Abbasi, if the funeral incident has been misrepresented, then completely refute it in your speeches. Mr. Chairman: That is what I have said, that here only procedural discussions will take place, regarding procedure. Yes, Mr. Abdul Hameed Khan Jatoi! Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman! I want to say something regarding procedure only. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: Mr. Chairman! We have come to know since yesterday that we are Muftis in this House and we will decide. I think our position is the same as if a non-advocate is made a High Court judge and he gives a fatwa, and that judge's fatwa, as a Mufti. My submission is that either we should be experts in Islam, have studied Islamic studies, or be professors of Islamic studies, then a fatwa can be expected from us. But in such circumstances, it is very difficult for us as a layman to become Muftis. Mr. Chairman: You do not have to give a fatwa, you have to decide. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: Have to decide? Mr. Chairman: Have to decide. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: How do you give the right to decide to a person who does not know the law of decision? Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman!... CITATION OF FATWAS AND THEIR REPUTATIONS 257 Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi, this is extremely unfair to us. Mr. Chairman: We will decide this later. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali! Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman, on a procedural matter, I would like to submit, Sir! I would like to request, Sir!... Mr. Chairman: I adjourn the House to meet at 12:00. The rest will be discussed later on. [The Special Committee of the whole House adjourned to meet at 12:00 noon.] [The Special Committee of the whole House reassembled after the Break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] CITATION OF FATWAS AND THEIR REPUTATIONS. Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool Tarar: Mr. Chairman! With your permission, I would like to submit to the Attorney General that the fatwas that have been read, Mirza Sahib has read the fatwas here, the refutation of which has been done by the religious scholars, if any of these members or Maulana Sahib has it, then they should be satisfied about it, if there is a refutation, then the effect of what has been stated here will not be good. Therefore, I would request if Aziz Bhatti Sahib has them, then give them to him so that he .... Mr. Chairman, deliver them to Maulana Aziz Bhatti Sahib. 258 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 16th Aug., 1974 Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Sir, this was given by Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sahib. He said that there has been a refutation and he has also given the citation for it. When the Attorney General Sahib deems it appropriate, he will inquire about it. (At this stage the Delegation entered the Chamber) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I was asking you a question about Namaz-e-Janaza and explanation given on behalf of the Ahmadia Jamaat, about Ch. Zafarullah not joining in the janaza prayer of Quaid-e-Azam. Is...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this official, or was it given by someone? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will tell you. Tract No. 22, titled "A Sample of the Honesty of Ahari Scholars," published by Muhtam Nashr-o-Ishaat, Nizamat Dawat-o-Tableegh, Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya, Rabwah, District Jhang, whether you call it official or not. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: An objection is raised against Chaudhry Muhammad Zafarullah Khan Sahib that he did not offer the funeral prayer of Quaid-e-Azam. The whole world knows that Quaid-e-Azam was not Ahmadi. Therefore, it is not objectionable for any member of the Ahmadiyya community not to offer his funeral prayer." This was the reason given officially or unofficially, as you may...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning, "Not offering the funeral prayer of Quaid-e-Azam is not an objectionable matter," is this its explanation, this objection? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 259 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Because he was non-Ahmadi." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "No. 'Not objectionable' is there an objection to this?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am saying is this explanation a correct explanation from your point of view? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Not objectionable" means that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, because he was non-Ahmadi. You once said that that was the reason or he was Shia, so I want clarification on this that the reason was that he was not Ahmadi? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He was Shia, and the Shia gentlemen also have a fatwa that the funeral prayer of Ahmadis should not be offered. Isn't there a fatwa? So, when they have this fatwa, then this is a matter of sedition and discord. I told you this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, okay, then I asked about Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan. He was not Shia. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I submitted to you that there is a difference between the Ahmadiyya community and other different sects, for example, many Deobandi children of Deobandi parents drift away from their position. So, there are fewer such cases in Ahmadis. There are exceptions, absolutely. For example, there will be one in ten thousand or one in a hundred thousand. But there are many there. So, the question is that it should be asked from them, from those who offer the prayer, that your sect's fatwa is that you should not offer the prayer, so why did you offer it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking if your fatwa is because of this reason, that they are non-Ahmadi? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. 260 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The reason is that he belongs to the Shia religion. He belonged to a sect. And it is the fatwa of the Shias that the funeral prayer of Ahmadis should not be offered, and ours is before ninety. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan was a personality, is the reason for him also that he used to issue fatwas? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sunni is sometimes used to refer to groups of different sects. So, if it is found out whether he was a Wahhabi or a Barelvi or an Ahl-e-Hadith or an Ahl-e-Quran, then I would tell you their fatwa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mr. Mirza! I wanted to ask that one thing is that you found out that he belongs to such and such sect, that sect had issued a fatwa against you, so you do not consider it necessary, do not consider it permissible, to participate in his funeral... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He did not consider it appropriate, it is a matter of discord. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The second thing is that "because they are non-Ahmadis. Whether there is a fatwa or not." The explanation given here is because Quaid-e-Azam was a non-Ahmadi. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The reasoning you are making from this explanation, in my opinion, that reasoning is wrong, because generally we say that he is a non-Ahmadi, but in our mind, it is that he belongs to some such sect that has already issued a fatwa against offering prayer. And Chaudhry Sahib himself has answered it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, I have read it. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 261 Mirza Nasir Ahmad... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Chaudhry Muhammad Zafarullah Khan Sahib himself answered this question before the Court of Inquiry in 1953 that Shabbir Ahmad Usmani Sahib, who led the funeral prayer of Quaid-e-Azam, considered me an apostate. The Imam, the one who led the funeral prayer, Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, at the time when he led the funeral prayer, considered Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib to be an apostate. That's why I didn't pray behind him. And those people among us were born who call Quaid-e-Azam Kafir-e-Azam (the great infidel). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, well, that's fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And there are references of this kind. Yes, okay, let's leave that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I would like to request you that it is alright from Chaudhry Sahib's point of view that Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani issued a fatwa against him, considered him a kafir, therefore, he was leading the funeral prayer, Chaudhry Sahib did not participate in it. Did the Ahmadiyya community anywhere, in Pakistan, in the world, offer a funeral prayer in absentia for Quaid-e-Azam behind any of their Imams? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not to my knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. Now, another explanation was given about Chaudhry Sahib not attending the funeral. "Al Fazl" October 28, 1952: 262 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 When the Qadiani community was objected to by Muslims that Quaid-e-Azam was a benefactor of Muslims and the entire Muslim community offered his funeral prayers, then The Ahmadiyya community replied, "Is it not a fact that Abu Talib was also a great benefactor of Muslims like Quaid-e-Azam? But neither did the Muslims offer his funeral prayers, nor did the Messenger of God." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is its reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is "Al-Fadl" October 28, 1952. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These speculations have no weight after Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib's own statement. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I say this. Mr. Chairman: No, no, just a minute........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not official. Mr. Chairman: The question is whether this writing is admitted or not? This is the question. First the witness has to say. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (To Mr. Chairman): Sir, I have read it out and the witness has said that it has got no value after Ch. Zafarullah Khan's....... Mr. Chairman: That is an opinion of the witness. The witness can express his opinion....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but that is for the Mr. Chairman: .......but the witness has to say whether the writing is admitted or not. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 263 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (To Mirza Nasir Ahmad): So, you don't agree with this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I think that after Zafarullah Khan Sahib's own statement, all these speculations should end. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And this that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That was wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whoever said this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He did not say it correctly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He did not say correctly that he puts Abu Talib and Quaid-e-Azam in the same category? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely did not say correctly. I still feel hurt listening to it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! If a Muslim does not believe in a Sharia prophet, and does not believe in a non-Sharia prophet, does it make any difference? Or same category? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Quran has stated: "La nufarriqu bayna ahadin min rusulih" It has taught that we do not differentiate between messengers. This is a fragment of a verse from the Holy Quran that I have recited. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whether he is Sharia or non-Sharia? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. There is no mention of Sharia and non-Sharia. "La nufarriqu bayna ahadin min rusulih" 264 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was this not said about the Sharia prophets? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, absolutely not. There is no speculation, difference, or anything here. Only "Rasul." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does the Holy Quran mention any difference between "the circle of Islam" and "the Muslim community"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. "The circle of Islam" is not mentioned at all. "The Muslim community" is mentioned in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Muslim community is mentioned. The circle of Islam is not mentioned at all? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have not read "the circle of Islam" anywhere in the Holy Quran. And... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's fine, but... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: *Millata abikum Ibrahim hu sammakum al-muslimin* *Millata abikum Ibrahim* This is it: *Wa jahadoo fi Allahi haqqa jihadihi hu ajtabakum wa ma ja'ala 'alaykum fi al-dini min harajin millata abikum Ibrahim hu sammakumu al-muslimina min qablu wa fi hatha liyakuna al-rasulu shahidan 'alaykum wa takunu shuhada'a 'ala al-nasi fa aqimu al-salata wa atu al-zakata wa'tasimu bi-Allahi hu maulakum fani'ma al-maula wa ni'ma al-nasir* 16 So, God Almighty has said here that God Almighty has given you the name Muslim and the name Millat. This is the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no mention of "the circle of Islam"? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: I am not aware of any. That is, someone may have argued with "ko" [possibly "to"]. But this word is not in the Holy Quran at all. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: So what is the difference between the circle of Islam and the "Millat" [Nation/Community], from your point of view? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: I explained this difference this morning, that: "Iman Doon Iman" [Faith Below Faith] MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: So, the person you consider outside the circle of Islam, you do not consider them outside the Muslim "Millat"? Can that be the case? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: That can be the case. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: This is you... MIRZA NASIR AHMED: Yes, yes, every person who is a member of the Muslim "Millat," according to someone's belief, is also within the circle of Islam, but not everyone who is in the circle of Islam is in the Muslim "Millat." MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: And the person who is outside the circle of Islam, is still a Muslim despite that? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: The one who is outside the circle of Islam is a member of the Muslim "Millat"? MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Yes. Despite that, he is also a Muslim. MIRZA NASIR AHMED: Despite that, he is a Muslim. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: He is also a Muslim? He is also a "Kafir" [disbeliever] and also a Muslim? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: In some respects. 266 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ........ what is 'kafir'? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From some aspects he is a kafir, and from some aspects he is also a Muslim. There are many verses regarding this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am submitting this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a reference from Mirza Sahib! Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib. I will recite it to you. He said that: "Now that it is absolutely clear that salvation is not possible without believing in the Promised Messiah, then why try to prove non-Ahmadis as Muslims unnecessarily?" Now, how can you call them Muslims when here it is said that: "Why try to make them Muslims?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have given the answer yourself. I had read out and said that what you mean is community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I just asked you about a Muslim. You said that he is a Muslim despite being a kafir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, he is a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So here Mirza Sahib says, why do you try to make them Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why do you try to include them in the circle of the Islamic community. That is what we mean. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 267 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they asked why you try to convert people to Islam. I want to explain the word "Muslim" here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, converting to Islam means why are you including them in the circle of the Islamic community, why are you including them in the circle of Islam, why are you including them in the circle of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, I just brought it to your attention. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And by the way, Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) claimed that God Almighty taught him this prayer through inspiration: "Lord, unite the followers of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and all other Muslims on the face of the earth to the highest, one true religion." In what we consider to be an inspired phrase, there is mention of a unified community and nation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the word Muslim was there, which I asked you about. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that Islam, that faith, is of two kinds. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's okay. I have followed your explanation. No, you said that there are two categories. While remaining within the community, a person can still be excluded from the circle of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is a disbeliever, but not of the category that is a denier. 268 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Aug 6th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is clear now. The word 'Muslim', about that I wanted some clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, when we say the circle of Islam, then that is Muslim and that is the same explanation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My assessment was and according to my understanding, the man who is outside the circle of Islam is not a Muslim. That is how I understood perhaps that is how an ordinary man will understand: he is outside the pale of Islam, that means, he is not a Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, but our definition has been made, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have different interpretation? So now I was asking the definition of a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: So that, the circle of Islam and Muslim, both will proceed according to that completely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say that the one who remains outside the circle of Islam, becomes an infidel, even then he can be a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The one who becomes an infidel? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can be, right? I said? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, clarify one thing, the matter will be understood. He became an infidel in some aspects, even then he is a Muslim in some aspects and is included in the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning that despite being an infidel, he can be a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 269 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then, in this reference of Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Sahib that I have given here, in it he says... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is what is meant by it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...why do you try to prove them Muslims?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, I will read it again: "When it is absolutely clear that salvation is not possible without believing in the Promised Messiah, then why are you unnecessarily trying to prove non-Ahmadis as Muslims?" What I am respectfully submitting is that you are trying to prove that they are Muslims and Mirza Sahib says: don't try to prove they are Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I beg to differ. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I am right or wrong... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I beg to differ. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that I think... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Different interpretation. You are deducing an argument from it. I believe that it is the same thing that I have stated. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the second point that arises is that a Muslim, despite his disbelief, in the category that you have placed him, can he be saved or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This matter of salvation, you see, is very deep, and very vast. So I will try to explain it in a few sentences... 2 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 1910, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, as far as I am concerned, the Committee really wants to solve this issue in an amicable manner. You take your time. Please don't........... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I will briefly say that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that salvation does not depend on a person's good deeds, but on the forgiveness of Allah Almighty. Rather, it is mentioned in a Hadith that Hazrat Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) asked, "Even your salvation?" He said, "Even my salvation. Allah Almighty's own forgiveness will give me salvation. I will not get salvation as a result of my own deeds." So, to decide about salvation, if salvation depends on the will of God Almighty, then it is not for man to decide. Man sometimes judges based on appearances. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you have said correctly. It is the forgiveness of Allah Almighty. But does Mirza Sahib have complete knowledge of who will receive the forgiveness of Allah Almighty and who will not? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not here, I want a clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: When this is our fundamental issue, and faith, then when a sentence is said in which there is some ambiguity, it should be returned to the original. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I want clarification. Here it is said: Now that this issue is absolutely clear that salvation is not possible without believing in the Promised Messiah. Impossible; in categorical terms it is stated. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 271 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have said that a man judges by the apparent. For example, we can say that a man's salvation depends on his not living a debauched life, or that a bad woman should not live a life of wickedness. This is a common judgement that a person makes. And it is mentioned in the Hadith that Allah admitted a prostitute into Paradise because she showed kindness to His creation - sometimes it is a dog, sometimes a cat - that was thirsty and dying of thirst, and the prostitute gave it water in her shoe, and Allah forgave her and sent her to Paradise. But outwardly, we will pass the same judgement. So, I have given an extreme example. Otherwise, it is said in the Hadith that whoever does this is not a Muslim. Whoever steals is not a Muslim. Whoever abandons prayer is not a Muslim and cannot achieve salvation. So, that is an outward judgement, an encouragement to people to perform good deeds. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will draw your attention also to 'Anwar-i-Khilafat,' page 90. Here it is stated: "It is our duty not to consider non-Ahmadis as Muslims." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning, to consider them outside the pale of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is your quotation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have admitted that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "It is our duty not to consider non-Ahmadis as Muslims and not to offer prayers behind them. In our view, they deny the one God." 272 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, here too, they say that they are not Muslims. You say that they are Muslims, in the sense that you have explained? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are Muslims as members of the Muslim community. And yes, they are Muslims in terms of the community, and they are outside the circle of Islam. These are two separate idioms. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "It is our duty not to consider non-Ahmadis as Muslims..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...to consider them outside the circle of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not the circle of Islam, here they are saying this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I mean, that is what it means. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does that mean that when they say not to consider them Muslims, they mean to "consider them Muslims, but consider them outside the circle of Islam"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! What is the Islamic point of view on "apostate"? What do they mean when they say that this is an apostate? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Islamic... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is he out of the circle of Islam or out of the Muslim community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, when you ask me, I will tell you my religion, right? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 273 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From your point of view, naturally. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my opinion, "a renegade is one who declares that he has no connection with Islam." "Whosoever of you turns back from his religion..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not from the circle of Islam, but will be out of the Muslim community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have neither said circle nor anything about Islam. The person who declares that he has no connection with Islam and that he has no faith in the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is out of the community, isn't he? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what should happen. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He cannot be a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, you haven't really understood my point. This has never been used passively in the Quran. Meaning, it's not that Zaid says to Bakr, "You have left the circle of Islam," or "You have abandoned Islam." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He himself says it. The person who declares that he is abandoning Islam and that he has no connection with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), in my opinion, according to Quranic terminology, only he is a renegade. Not those against whom others issue fatwas. 274 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning if someone else says it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then I have not found its mention in the Holy Quran under this word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning scholars, whether they are from your group or any group. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have no connection with it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even if they have knowledge. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That this is a person... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no question of knowledge in this. A man himself stands up and says... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: On the matter, not if he does not say it himself. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not himself, the Holy Quran says that he should say it himself. That is the point I am making. The Holy Quran has stated this, always using the passive tense without using the word, that the person who himself declares apostasy from Islam, meaning who declares that he has no connection with Islam and with the Seal of the Prophets, Hazrat Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, in the terminology of the Holy Quran, he is an apostate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just assuming, suppose there is a person, he is a Muslim, and he declares that he does not believe in Islam anymore, has he become an apostate? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 275 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to his declaration. A person who took the pledge from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, became Ahmadi, then he declares that he does not consider him a prophet yet. Will he be an apostate? Will he be out of the Muslim community? Or out of the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In the literal sense, the one who declared it has become an apostate in the literal sense. But in the terminology of the Holy Quran, he is not an apostate. These are separate words. There is a lexical meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are there two categories of apostates? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: One... (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Every word, every word has... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I will tell you, it is possible to use it in a lexical sense or in a terminological sense. I am talking about this. There is the meaning of apostasy in the terminology of the Holy Quran. Read it from beginning to end and keep all the verses in front of you. Wherever the word apostasy has been used, it is the terminology of the Holy Quran and it does not mean that if the Holy Quran uses a word in the terminological sense of Arabic, it cannot be used in the lexical sense at all, it has never happened anywhere, nor does reason accept it. So when we say that he has apostatized from Islam, then... 276 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug. 1974 According to the terminology of the Holy Quran. When we say that the Wahabi sect has apostatized, it is not according to the literal meaning, according to the terminology of the Holy Quran. And for example This is a reference from Hazrat Maulana Maududi Sahib: "Turning away from Jamaat-e-Islami is a very bad destination of hell." So they adopted it. This is their own, but according to the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: An apostate, did he call him an apostate? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They have used the word apostasy, they have used the word apostasy from their sect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That means he became an apostate then? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he became an apostate. But I am telling you, I am talking about their right. Their meaning is not that he became an apostate in the terminology of the Holy Quran. Their meaning is that he has left us. Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if I ask you a direct question. A person believes Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib to be a prophet, then after that he Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Announces that I do not believe? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I don't believe. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So according to the literal meaning, he is an apostate... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Deserving of beheading and punishment..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But according to the technical meaning, he is not an apostate. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 277 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, the punishment that Islam has prescribed for an apostate, is he not deserving of it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The punishment in the terminology of the Quran, the punishment of the Holy Quran is only for that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will this not come in that category? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this will not come in that category. And here, there should be another clarification, what punishment has the Holy Quran prescribed for an apostate? Hell. The punishment of the afterlife has been given. There is no punishment for an apostate in this world in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No punishment? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no specific punishment. The punishment is for the afterlife. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So the punishment of the afterlife is for that person or not who considers Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib as a prophet... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The punishment that the Holy Quran has stated is not for any such apostate who is not an apostate according to the terminology of the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I, I am asking about them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am giving its answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I have been given a question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The apostate who is according to the terminology of the Holy Quran, the punishment that the Holy Quran has prescribed for him, whatever punishment the Holy Quran has stated for him, that is not for any such apostate who is an apostate in terms of literal meaning but is not an apostate according to the terminology of the Holy Quran. 278 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have been given a question which says that: "Are you aware that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib declared Abdul Haleem, who was first a follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and then strongly disagreed with him or refused to acknowledge his status as a prophet, as a apostate?" (Referenced from Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 163) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The one who denied, he, he, he denied. That is in terms of its literal meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Apostate in the sense that this person did not become an infidel? Infidel, meaning he... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is out of the circle of Islam, but is included in the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anwar Khilafat Mein Mirza Sahib! Page 94, in this, there is a reference from Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Sahib: "...it is forbidden and unlawful to have marital relations with Muslims." This is a very different category... not to do, on the ground of expediency, as you said that we think that relations do not remain good. And here it says: "unlawful" "forbidden." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing that creates discord is unlawful and forbidden. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then this becomes a different category, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not expediency, it becomes a matter of belief? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the reason for "unlawful and forbidden" is that it creates a problem. To say that the problem that is going to arise is one thing, and unlawful and forbidden is another... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 279 Something else, that is illegitimate and forbidden, this is the result of corruption, of badness. Here, the result is stated in one place, and the reason is stated in another. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, are you so different from Muslims that marital relations are illegitimate and forbidden? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the rest... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You understand. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not in the Sharia term, number one. Secondly, how do you say this sentence that the Ahmadiyya community is different from everyone else? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or are they different from you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They may be different. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am not saying this. I am saying that you can say the same thing about Shias, you can say the same thing about Deobandis, you can say the same thing about Wahhabis, you can say the same thing about Ahl-e-Hadith. You can say the same thing about every sect. This fatwa of disbelief, that marital relations are illegitimate, is not only given against Ahmadis by everyone together, but everyone together has given it about every other sect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, you said that these different sects have given such fatwas against each other that it is illegitimate, it is forbidden? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, everyone has. 280 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has everyone together issued such decrees against a sect like the ones issued against you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Everyone has issued them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everyone together? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That Barelvis, Deobandis, all together, call someone "absolutely"? Are there any such decrees that are unanimous, that we can call more or less unanimous? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, in 1953, the Justice Munir Inquiry Report, until then, no one had issued joint decrees at all. Not even against us. Therefore, the decrees after that cannot be considered unanimous. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, you said that in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib's time as well, two hundred clerics had issued decrees. Just now... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I didn't say that at that time there were only two hundred clerics from all sects in the world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everyone hadn't issued them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So when I say there were two hundred, then certainly not everyone had issued them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you said that all Muslims are outside the pale [of Islam]. That's what I was asking you, why are you calling those who didn't even issue decrees infidels? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One is the one who issues the decree, and the other is the one who follows the Mufti. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 281 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning they are all covered, right? Is there any category of Muslims left? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there is no category left regarding the Shias either, of Muslims. Everyone has issued a fatwa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you said that two hundred scholars issued fatwas, but you said they were not all of them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am giving this answer to that, that the stance you are taking regarding the Ahmadiyya community, why aren't you taking the same stance regarding every other sect when the state of the fatwas is the same? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everyone, I think, did not issue a fatwa together like the one issued against the Ahmadiyya community. They are individual fatwas. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, do you mean that Deobandi plus Ahl-e-Hadith plus Wahabi plus Barelvi, this is not a joint fatwa, and a joint fatwa is that one scholar of Deobandis, one of Ahl-e-Hadith, one of Barelvis, one of Wahabis, one of Ahl-e-Quran, and one person each from the other sects should come together and issue a fatwa, then that is a unanimous fatwa? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that was not my meaning. I was submitting that now these are Barelvis, Deobandis have issued a fatwa against them. That's right. Barelvis... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, not only Deobandis, every other sect has issued it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everyone, all of them issued a unanimous fatwa? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, absolutely. We have references for that. 282 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everyone? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, everyone gave it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did everyone condemn the Barelvis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Every sect that is not Barelvi has condemned the Barelvis, who belong to another sect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those who are not Deobandi, they all did? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Everyone. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Condemned? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, everyone did. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And in the same way, everyone has condemned you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Everyone did. And these are our elders, also our elders. Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab (may God have mercy on him), who is the leader of the Wahhabis, he, what is his name, after writing a hadith in Mukhtasar Seerat-ur-Rasool that my A hadith of mine, he quoted that the Holy Prophet said that my Ummah Ummah will be divided into seventy-three sects, and seventy-two of them will be in hell: كلهم في النار الا واحده All of them are in hell except one who is from paradise. After that, he explained it like this: هذه من حمل المسائل من فهمها و فهو الفقيه و من عمل بها فهو المسلم That this is a very important issue, whoever understands this issue is the only jurist. And whoever practically declares them as non-Muslims, declares them to be in hell, is the only Muslim. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 283 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As you were just saying that before '53, such a national didn't come as they gave in '53? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, I said that the way you were saying that all together, after putting their heads together, gave a fatwa, such a fatwa was not given till '53, to my knowledge... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They kept giving individually? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, individually. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Before '53? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, the same, until before the '53 riots. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And against the rest, such a collective, like they gave against you in '53? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Not even in '53 was it collective against us, this is a later thing. In '53, the different sects, they issued fatwas in their own places. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, you said that such collectives didn't come before, before there were individual, then collective? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It's a matter after '53. It wasn't till '53. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that this happened? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, after that, now they all gather together, sometimes, and Allah knows best. 284 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what is the reason that among themselves, you say, that they issued fatwas of disbelief against each other, despite the fact that all sects scholars and representatives gathered in January 1953, and unanimously declared Ahmadis as non-Muslims, why did they gather? Why don't they say that you are also an infidel you are also an infidel, why are they calling them infidels? Those who were related to you gathered and unanimously... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question that is being asked to me, does it mean that should I think of a reason from my mind? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I asked you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, then only I can answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are they making any distinction? That among themselves, they call each other infidels, but gathering together, they declared only you as non-Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is a reason for this. I will find the reference. Dr. Khalifa Abdul Hakim Sahib This reference is his, he has written: The Vice-Chancellor of a university in Pakistan recently told me that from a great cleric and influential scholar, who after much hesitation and deliberation After migrating to Pakistan, I inquired about an Islamic sect Discovered. He issued a fatwa that those who are empty among them are liable to be killed, and those who are not empty are worthy of respect. Asked about another sect in which There are many millionaire merchants. He said that all of them are liable to be killed. The same scholar CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 285 were the leading and key figures among the scholars who, in their proposed Islamic constitution, made it mandatory to recognize every Islamic sect except one, which was considered outside the pale of Islam. They too are liable to be killed (meaning other sects), but this is not the time to say it publicly; we will see when the opportunity arises. Another head cleric among them said that we have only just started Jihad in the name of Allah against one sect. (You read this). This is a sentence worth hearing: “That we have only just started Jihad in the name of Allah against one sect. After success in this, God willing, others will also be taken care of.” Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is Mr. Sahib's individual opinion, you gave it from a cleric, or so-called cleric. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This individual opinion is regarding a matter in which a collective opinion is not possible at all... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you see this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because the matter is that one has to be taken after another. So how could everyone together give this fatwa that first it's my turn, then it's your turn, then it's your turn? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, constitutional... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This matter is of that kind, this topic is such in which only one opinion can be given. And two opinions have come in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, such a collective opinion that all the scholars... 286 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Such a collective opinion could be that first you Shias, Shia scholar, Deobandi scholar, Wahabi scholar, Ahl-e-Hadith scholar, Barelvi scholar get together put your heads together and say that first we will kill the Wahabis, and then we will kill the Ahl-e-Hadith, and then we will go after the Ahl-e-Quran, then we will take care of the Deobandis. This collectively cannot happen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This would be Hara-kiri, wouldn't it? Does that mean they are killing themselves? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am saying that the subject itself is such that only individual opinion can be given, collective is impossible → unthinkable Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In 1951, the recommendations that were given, the constitutional recommendations together by all classes, they had said that we will consider each other Muslims except Ahmadis. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding this, it is that it is just one person's turn now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Er... except Ahmadis. They all have the same view. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding this, it is that when one was asked, he said it is okay. We all are.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are we talking about one party? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, collectively they cannot do it. It would become Hara-kiri as you said. And like that everyone was not included either. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 287 The Shia gentlemen had announced that we are not included in this. This decree that is collective, regarding Shia gentlemen, the scholars have already issued together, and this weekly Tarjuman-e-Islam Lahore, March 31, 1972, page 5, column number 5, it has been published. If you want, I can read that out as well. Collective demand... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that has already been included in your statement, we have already read it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it has been included in it, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This, Mr. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib's "Aina-e-Sadaqat" Is this his work? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, sir, this is not his work. "Aina-e-Sadaqat" is not by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, not by the founder of the order, "Aina-e-Sadaqat" is not his work. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then this must be by Mirza, Bashiruddin Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if it is, then you tell me, who is it by? Who is the author? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Aina-e-Sadaqat," page 35. I have been told this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then someone has told you wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In this, Mr. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib has been quoted. So, I will read that out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I will read that: "Is it correct... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Correct, yes. 288 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 6th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, through the following writings, has declared all Muslims as infidels and issued a decree of infidelity against them." Somebody asked this question. It contains: "That all Muslims are outside the circle of Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are the people of Islam also outside the circle of Islam? That issue was clarified earlier. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I'm saying, that it is paradoxical. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not paradoxical. We have taken two terms. The Islamic community and the circle of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, I am asking this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A person remains in the Islamic community despite being outside the circle of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you say: That all Muslims are outside the circle of Islam. Are Ahmadis included in all the people of Islam or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The sect that is speaking does not include itself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: For example, when our Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab (may God have mercy on him) was saying that seventy-three sects, except one, are all in hell, then he had excluded himself. This is our daily practice. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 289 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, according to this categorization, are all Muslims except Ahmadis infidels, who are not outside the Millat (religious community)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, not outside the Millat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Outside the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: All of the Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Actually, the thing is, I have said it once, I repeat... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, don't verify... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Any reference that is read and recited to me here, I can neither confirm nor deny it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You stated earlier, then I read it out to you from Anwar-e-Sadaqat, then you confirmed it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I did not confirm anyone's statement. I responded. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will give it to you again then. My impression was that you had full knowledge... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You had full knowledge, you said that this question was also asked of you at the time of the Munir Inquiry, and we gave this answer. So you did not deny it. But if you take it that way that I have to put it to you pointedly every time, then I will do that. 290 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What then... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, this is a matter of record, a matter of evidence, you are giving evidence on oath. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If on page 93 of "Anwar Sadaqat" there isn't a statement by Mirza Bashiruddin, then "Anwar Khilafat." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: 93 has been acknowledged. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes no, that's what I was saying. You said that I... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, it has been acknowledged. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Thank you. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And the answer has been given too. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so I understand that when you have answered... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You could have said that too. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, it is acknowledged, it is acknowledged. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So this is the statement that: All Muslims are outside the circle of Islam. (Aina-e-Sadaqat, page 35) Please note it down, then you can look at it later. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, no, I can read it this way too. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 291 That all those who are outside the circle of Islam are included in the people of Islam, this very sentence, if read in reverse, becomes this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that it has become like this, that you do not include Ahmadis among the people of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you, you say that when they do not consider themselves to be included in it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When this sect is announced. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, when all the people of Islam are not outside the circle of Islam, it means... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Every sect makes this announcement. According to our terminology, every sect makes this announcement that we are also in the Muslim community and also in the circle of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's right, so it is understood because of that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but when here Mirza Sahib said that all the people of Islam are outside the circle of Islam, then I asked you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is understood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That Ahmadis are included in the entire circle of Islam? You said whoever says so about themselves... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I gave the example of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab. 292 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The conclusion of this is that you do not consider yourself to be included in the circle of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or do you not consider it to be outside of it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning we consider it double, we also consider ourselves in the Muslim community.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It has been used in two places. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, we also consider ourselves in the Muslim community and in the circle of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And here..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And every sect understands this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here you include yourself among the people of Islam, but you do not come among those outside? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's what it means. Then Mirza Sahib said this: Stay separate from non-Ahmadis in all religious matters. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now, what different sects consider religious matters... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It has been said. Nahj al-Musalli, page number 382, footnote Tuhfa Golarviya page number 27. That is from above. I think it is the second one, it is in it. Nahj al-Musalli page 3. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 293 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whose reference is this? Which book? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is Ji Nasaj Al-Musalla, page number 382. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who wrote this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The questioner says that Mirza Sahib, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib said this, and they.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this book is not an authority for us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nab' al-Musalla? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, whatever it is. This is not written by any authority of our community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Your community... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, not written by any elder. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, you don't accept it, has it been written by one of your opponents? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, maybe it is some Ahmadi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: An Ahmadi, but not authoritative? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, not an authority. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not an authoritative pronouncement? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because many people write their personal issues in between. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is not authoritative. 294 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Aug 6th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib!... accept your authoritative... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not authoritative. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this what he has quoted from Mirza Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We cannot say until we check it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you cannot verify it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Chairman: Do we have the book? The book may be shown to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then there is this: "You will have to completely abandon other sects who claim Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this from that book? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, this is from another book. I have written here "Tohfa Golrwiya page 27." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will answer after checking this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is from your own Jamaat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, but the reference needs to be checked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, check the reference. If this is correct then: "You will have to completely abandon other sects who claim Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning the reference needs to be checked. Regarding the subject matter, it should be remembered that I have also written in it that such beliefs are expressed in their accepted books which we cannot subscribe to. Therefore, we are separate from them, for example, prostrating on graves, for example, considering the Pir present and watching before oneself, for example... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 295 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mr. Mirza! What would you take the meaning of "complete abandonment" to be? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We would take it to mean that their collective beliefs, their collective inner being, have such things mixed in that they cannot be accepted in their entirety. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And those who claim Islam," does that mean they are not Muslims, only making a claim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that comes up again. That point has already been resolved. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, it's just that such words have come up here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is the same. I have already given a separate statement that they are members of the Muslim community, and to that extent, they are excluded from Islam. In this also, there is a big, that is, this that is Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the other sects who "claim Islam," you count them outside........? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, those who claim Islam, who call themselves Muslims, will therefore come into the definition of a Muslim, of the community. Anyone who says that I have faith in Islam and have faith in the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is included in the Muslim community. But along with that, there are many such beliefs which I have also formed after studying them; it would be better if I did not repeat them. It is painful. We cannot subscribe to those ideas. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but, Sir, if you say that you have to completely abandon them, if you give them up altogether.............. 296 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I have explained that complete abandonment means that they cannot completely accept them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, not accepting is another thing. Meaning, you have nothing to do with them, you have no relation with them, you have no connection with them............ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, this is not a complete acceptance. They cannot subscribe to those beliefs. This is a matter of beliefs. Completely, as a whole, we cannot accept them. As for those who declare the Oneness of God, it does not mean that we will deny the Oneness of God. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And in one place it is said that: "Is it correct that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has said in one of his writings that: There are two types of disbelief: One is denial of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and the other is denial of the Promised Messiah. The result and essence of both is the same." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the reference for this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 185. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Please read it again, I didn't quite catch it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Is it correct that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib has said in one of his writings that: There are two types of disbelief: One is denial of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and the other is denial of the Promised Messiah. The result and essence of both is the same." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not written in any book. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 297 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, they have said in Haqiqat-ul-Wahi page 185: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These words, which were the original basic word, were left out. That's why I am saying that this is not written in any book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These words are not written in any book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They will verify that because... what was said. So... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But for my information, they have mentioned "Haqiqat-ul-Wahi". So I told you that it is mentioned. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, should I read what was said? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please read it. The position needs to be clarified. Whether you read this or that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have written this: "Kufr is of two kinds. One is that a person denies Islam itself, and does not believe the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to be a messenger of God. (Second) The other kufr is that, for example, (this is an example) he does not believe in the Promised Messiah (and the next sentence, which is missing here, was the main thing in it) and considers him (the Promised Messiah) a liar despite the completion of the argument." 298 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 I had explained to you this morning that there are two types of people who deny Hazrat Masih Maud (peace and blessings be upon him). One is the one who stands up and says that I understand that you are truthful and have come from God, but I am a rebel in spite of this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that's fine. You said this morning Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. The second is the one who, after the first explanation in "Haqiqat-ul-Wahi," after the completion of the argument, denies.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, someone who says once that you are a prophet and... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. The meaning of completion of argument is that he says that I understand that this person is truthful in his claim, but still he denies it and adopts the most rebellious paths. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Despite the completion of the argument... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, despite the completion of the argument. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Knows him to be a liar? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, despite the completion of the argument. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there such a person who says that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib is a true prophet and I don't believe him, a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have heard many people say that even if Allah comes and tells us, we still won't believe. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 299 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are saying that because it is written in the Holy Quran, according to their interpretation, that no prophet will come, Khatam-e-Nabuwwat, that is why they are saying that. And there is nothing after Allah. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, they are saying that if Allah Himself comes and interprets the Holy Quran, then we will say that our interpretation is correct and, O God! Your interpretation is not correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because according to them, Allah cannot come and then does not interpret. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, I mean... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is, that is their understanding. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The meaning is that after the completion of the argument. And you have further explained it in this book. You have stated: "And one who, despite the completion of the argument, knows him to be a liar, about whose acceptance and truthfulness God and the Messenger have emphasized, and emphasis is also found in the books of the previous prophets." Mr. Chairman: That will do for the present, yes. So the Delegation is permitted to leave, to report back at 6.00. The honorable members may keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber) 300 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 ARRANGEMENTS FOR PRODUCTION OF BOOKS AND REFERENCES Mr. Chairman, I would like to say one thing to the honorable members, that those members who have given questions, along with references, all the books, we will have them placed on this side. You put all the books over there. You cross, between the Attorney General and the witness, one second. For your convenience, and the one next to it which is TOW, reserve it for those who have given references. Mark them regularly. If the witness denies anything, the book should be immediately presented before them. It is absolutely wrong procedure that it takes half an hour to find a reference. I was saying the same thing yesterday, that the table that is there, the books should be kept here. Here we will put four or five chairs so that the members who are looking for their references can sit on these chairs and do it. And over there too. Now only those gentlemen who have given references should come and sit here. The books should be ready so that the Attorney General does not have any difficulty and time is not wasted. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Sir, may I say one thing if I may? Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Sir! Their issue is that the volumes are different. We write the page and the book we have is of a different kind. We had three references, and now they are searching for them. Mr. Chairman: Now there is time, you have started references. Okay, I.... Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: No, actually... Mr. Chairman: References have already started. ARRANGEMENTS FOR PRODUCTION OF BOOKS AND REFERENCES 301 Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Yes. Mr. Chairman, that general, one second. Let me finish. One second. Let me talk. Let me talk, sir! So a general examination, it is almost finished, it will continue but now more discussion about references has started. And two or three references could not be found. Therefore, when the evening sitting will be held, four or five more chairs will be added there. All the gentlemen, whatever references they have, they should flag them, if there are two or three editions then they should give the edition they have referenced so that the Attorney General can immediately tell the witness that this is your book. And members will not come, there will be a staff member of the assembly who will present the book to them. Yes, Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi! Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: I would like to submit that we should keep the reference ready when we are informed by the Attorney General about what questions he will ask. That is one thing. Secondly, regarding Mufti Sahib, I say that if the books are printed in three editions, then he should have the book which he is referencing. He should have the book from that same publisher and read it out. He will not be able to deny it. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani! Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Yes, what Maulana Sahib has said, the situation that Mufti Sahib has said is correct. Actually, the book we had, for example, "Haqiqat-ul-Wahi". They denied it, that it is not. 302 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: Its... Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Later, you observed that at that time that book was presented to them. Mr. Chairman: No, I will tell you the solution to this. For example, Maulana! Do you have the first edition or the second edition? Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Yes. Mr. Chairman: Then you should say, "Published in 1990, third edition, page so-and-so." Present the reference at the same time. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: They were told that, but they refused. Mr. Chairman: If the original book... Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Later you observed that the reference was given. Mr. Chairman: If it is the original book, then there is no need, no matter which edition it is. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: The difference in the book is the printing. Mr. Chairman: Different print, but the witness will not be able to deny it. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Sir, regarding the debate, I would like to submit that one of the principles of debate is that until both parties agree on something, it cannot be used as an argument. When we do not consider Mirza to be the promised Messiah, they say that he will be considered a disbeliever after the completion of the argument. But we do not consider him to be the promised Messiah in the first place. The completion of the argument is not upon us. This is the disputed issue. That which is a disputed issue cannot be evidence for two parties. That which both parties agree upon can be evidence. Mr. Chairman: This is a matter of debate. The matter here is of procedure. The House is adjourned to meet again at 6.00 p.m. Thank you very much. [The Special Committee adjourned for Lunch Break to re-assemble at 6.00 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after Lunch Break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Mian Attaullah must sit with the references. That would be better for Mian Attaullah and for others also. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Bring them to him. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, you were explaining when I asked this question: Is it correct that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib wrote in one of his writings that: "There are two types of disbelief, one is denial of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and the other is denial of the Promised Messiah. And the result and substance of both is the same." 304 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug., 1974 And then after that 'Haqeequt-ul-Wahi' was quoted and you Observed, you know that after a person has been told - that I am not clear how you interpreted it, but as far as I could follow - even if a man is convinced that there is a Prophet, and he denies his prophethood and his being a Nabi, then he becomes a Kafir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This passage of it goes on and clarifies itself. You state: Secondly, this disbelief, for example, he does not believe in the Promised Messiah and considers him a liar despite the completion of the argument, about whose acceptance and considering true, God and the Messenger have emphasized. Meaning, he understands that Allah and the Messenger have emphasized that he should be believed in, yet he still denies. 33 And emphasis is also found in the books of the previous prophets, therefore, because he is a denier of the command of God and the Messenger, he is a Kafir. Because he is a denier of God and the Messenger... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Sir, I will come to that part. I only wanted the meaning of completion of argument. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the meaning of completion of argument is that it has become clear to him that the claimant is truthful in his claim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Has become clear" means that it has been explained to them, it has been fully explained to them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No: And they denied them, while their [inner] selves were convinced thereof CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 305 The Holy Quran has stated that there are some people in the world who deny the truth despite their hearts being filled with the certainty that it is true. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that... what I wanted to know is whether the completion of the argument means that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That he knows that he is saying the truth. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, "wa astaiqanat'ha anfusuhum." Still, he denies. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But if a Muslim, you try to convince him, through debate, after a complete debate, after argumentation, after reasoning, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib was a prophet, and he is not convinced, honestly not convinced... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not convinced... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is not. He does not have the belief in his heart that he was a true prophet. Would you still call him a Kafir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is the second type of Kafir. That has become clear, hasn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Second type? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, concerning the Muslim community, he is not a Kafir, he will be called a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He will be considered a member of the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Despite the completion of the argument? You have... 306 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If he is not convinced, if he comes to know "Wastaiqanat Anfusahum", then he is out of the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not when, if he comes to know. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if he does not come to know... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, there are two reasons, a person comes to know honestly, and still says no, not a prophet, that is a very rare thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if he... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is an exceptional case that despite the fact that he is certain... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He knows and he denies... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That it is the order of Allah. That is rare. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is the one who exits the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And all the other Muslims, whom you have thoroughly explained. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Could not understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They could not understand, or you could not explain, or they did not believe. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay, we could not explain or... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In any case, they understand that he is a false prophet, not a true prophet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then he does not exit the Muslim community, but in our view, he has exited the realm of Islam. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 307 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is he outside the circle of Islam, or does he remain within the Millat (community)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he remains within the Millat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Mirza Sahib! The differences that exist between you and the rest of the Muslims, have they arisen over the fact that they do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet? Is this the main issue? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No sir, the main issue in our view is that many incorrect beliefs have entered into them, examples of which everyone has given in the memorandum. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if all those things are according to your nature, according to your beliefs, and they do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib to be a prophet... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, you bring up these extreme examples. The matter does not become clear in my mind. I apologize. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then I will give another example. Is there any difference in the Kalima (Islamic creed) between you and them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there any difference in the prayer (Namaz)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No difference, except for this difference. When you say "them," there are different sects. For example, the very first difference is that some read with their hands at their sides, some with their hands folded, some say "Ameen" loudly, and some do not say it loudly. So these are the differences in the prayer. For example, the Shia gentlemen have slight differences. 308 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is just a matter of formality. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is understood. The same five daily prayers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The same Kalma is recited, the same. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This, Mirza Sahib! is a sermon by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad Sahib. From it, there is a quotation: "The words that came out of the mouth of the Promised Messiah are echoing in my ears. You said it is wrong to say that our difference with other people is only superficial and in a few matters. You said, God Almighty, the Holy Prophet, the Quran, prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, charity, in short, you explained in detail that we differ from them in every single thing." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there are two answers to this. And this question was first raised in the Munir Inquiry Committee, and it was answered. One is that when these sermons were given and published, there was no arrangement to preserve the exact words. So, the diary writer has given some words, which may contain some errors. Secondly - this is just a literal answer. When we say that our Kalma and the Kalma of the Wahhabis, other people, our friends, or all the sects of Ahl-e-Hadith, is different, we do not say it in a literal sense, meaning that the words of the Kalma are different. We say it in its meaning, that the meaning of the Kalma in our minds is different from what is in their minds. For example, in the affidavit, which is the concept of Islam that Allah Almighty has in the Holy Quran, CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 309 In our view, Allah, according to what the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement wrote, is such that... I had given references to it. If you compare it to that... if you allow me, I can say it without reference, that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not my reference. When I give a reference to another sect in comparison to that, shouldn't I mention the name of the sect? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. If that God, who is glorified with praise—glory be to Him and all praise be to Him—this concept of Him is that He is free from all kinds of defects, flaws, and weaknesses, and is perfect and pure. And all praise belongs to Him, all good attributes are His, and He is free from all kinds of evil and faults. This is the beginning, it becomes the title of the concept of Allah. If we find any fault, as Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) has told us, any fault that can ever come to the human mind, has come, or will come in the future, that fault is not found in the being of Allah. And every kind of virtue and greatness, its source is the being of Allah, not the being of any other creation. Now, this concept—I have made it very brief because I have already presented good references in my statement here. In comparison to this concept, if we find in a book that belongs to another sect that Allah, God forbid, can steal, then when we present this, we will say that our "La ilaha illallah" (There is no god but Allah) - the words are the same, but our "La ilaha illallah" is different. 310 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 The part that I have taken, is just an example. The second part is Muhammad Rasool Allah. We have a difference of meaning in this part of the Kalima as well. The glory, and the greatness, and the splendor that we have learned from Hazrat Bani Silsila Ahmadiyya, with emphasis on the glory and greatness and splendor of the Holy Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, when we compare it with others, there is a world of difference. For example, if in comparison we find a sect that says that to attain the glory of Muhammad ﷺ marrying four times through Mut'ah is enough, then we will say that our Muhammad Rasool Allah is different, and that sect's is different. So, this "our Kalima is different" is in terms of meaning, not in terms of words. This much is the difference, that we cannot subscribe to those notions. Otherwise, in terms of words, it is one and the same. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand that your interpretation is different regarding Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zakat... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Regarding the pillars. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is different regarding the pillars. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, it is different. And other sects also have mutual differences. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is perhaps another misunderstanding that there is a mosque in Nigeria. On it, the Kalima that is written, its photo came in the newspapers, and in 'AFRICA SPEAKS' that La Ilaha Illallah Ahmad Rasool Allah, such an impression is created. Maybe it is Muhammad Rasool Allah but the general impression is at first sight_ I did see it. "Ahmad Rasool Allah" CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 311 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, regarding a mosque in Ijebuode, Nigeria, where the Kalima was written above the grand mosque, which the locals wrote, and a commotion was stirred about it here. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, "AFRICA SPEAKS" is your publication, it is quoted in that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Wait, sir, I am coming to that, I am on that... Regarding that, a commotion was stirred here that look, this Kalima is different. Firstly, we have built hundreds of mosques and to single out just one mosque from them and make a commotion that this is their Kalima, this doesn't appeal to the heart. But my point is not finished yet. I will reinforce it until you are convinced. Now we have mosques in Europe, we have dozens of mosques in Nigeria itself, we have mosques in Ghana, etc. Secondly, among the people in that area of Nigeria. Ijebuode is a good sized town in a state, there is this mosque there, no scholar there has objected to writing another Kalima. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are there Muslims other than Ahmadis there? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ahmadis there are probably five to ten percent. And there are big scholars, and their organizations. It is a city there. It is not a small village, it is a city. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have not objected to why you have written "La Ilaha Illallah Ahmad Rasulullah"? 312 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They didn't even object that even a small stroke of the word is wrong. Not at all. Those whose minaret is in front of them all the time, on top of which this is written. I went there, I inaugurated it, that's why she came. And in that meeting of mine, there were at least two or three thousand such friends of ours who were not Ahmadis, and that word was written in front of them, and they did not object there. And in the end, I would say that Rabita Alam-e-Islami did not object to it, but they... This is Rabita Alam-e-Islami's magazine, from May. And in this, they published the picture of the mosque. They published this picture and wrote a note, and in that note, no objection was raised that this word has been changed. Rather, it is read very clearly, "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah" in another script. The thing is that the Holy Quran is not written only in this script. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I wanted to ask, Mirza Sahib! Is this actually written as Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is there, without any doubt, you can see it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I don't see any... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, this is Rabita Alam-e-Islami's magazine, not ours. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am referring to 'AFRICA SPEAKS'. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it is the same picture. The same picture has been published by Rabita Alam-e-Islami, the same picture of the same mosque is written that the Ahmadis have published these pictures, we have taken it from there. This magazine is published from Mecca. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 313 Now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look here, it seems to me "La Ilaha Illallah, Ahmadur Rasulullah." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that's not the point. I said that there is no objection to the loop in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm not saying that, but... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is handwriting. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that if they write Muhammad in such a way that the Meem starts from the bottom... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They raise it from the bottom, that is the mouth of the Meem... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then it could be Muhammad. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But in my opinion, the impression that it gives... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a script. In my opinion, if the Holy Quran comes here, no one will be able to read it correctly. There is a Moroccan script. Just a few weeks ago. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! My opinion was that actually it is written "La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah"? I wanted to clarify this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Actually, it is not written. The people who live there, even those who disagree with us, have not objected to it. Rabita al-Alam al-Islami has not objected to it. They have given a note with it. 314 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 16th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is also possible, Mirza Sahib! that those who are there actually see, they might be seeing a "meem," but it is not clearly visible in the photo. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, in this photo also, this "meem" of Muhammad, the second one, there is a "tashdeed" visible on it. So where is that "tashdeed" on Ahmad? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but here it is on the "alif". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here, there is no "tashdeed" on it (Interruption). No, no, this is the script, taking it upwards (Interruption). Yes, it is different, our script is different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so then "meem" (Interruption). Yes, doing like this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is different, our script is different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I just want to ask, is this "Muhammad" and not "Ahmad"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Can it ever be that we would just make this Ahmad in one place? While every mosque in the world is calling out "Muhammad, Muhammad"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here the impression was that slowly, you are beginning now, you are.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we are beginning from Ijebuode where we are only 5 to 10 percent! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That was the impression given to me; that is why I wanted a clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In some scripts the "meem" rises from bottom to top. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no sir, I was asking this. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 315 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This came to me from Morocco as a gift. It also came with the instruction that an ordinary person should read it so we can understand their script. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I only wanted you to clarify that it is only "La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasoolullah," that's all. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is what it is. Since we were born, before we even gained consciousness, we were taught La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasoolullah. And now this has become an objection, strange! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! The questions I have been asking you since morning, about whether Ahmadis consider themselves separate from others, their differences, and you have explained to what extent the differences are, so in that, when you say: "We are a separate nation," what is the sense of that? What does it mean? You say that "We are a separate nation?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, we for example... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am telling you, we are separate and also consider it permissible to eat the slaughtered meat of other sects. And I mentioned in the first sitting that even though we consider that slaughtered meat haram, we are also a separate nation. And the fatwa among others is that if a marriage takes place between two sects outside of Ahmadis, then the offspring will be disinherited, deprived of inheritance. But we, despite not liking our daughter going to another sect or another sect's daughter coming here, we do not deprive them of inheritance. Our fatwa is not Sharia-based. All the rights that Sharia... 316 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 have given, despite the fact that marriage is not favorable in our opinion, they receive all the rights. We say that slaughtering is absolutely permissible, even though the fatwas of other sects among themselves have forbidden slaughtering, disinherited, so our differences are less in proportion to them than the mutual differences of the others. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Your differences with them are on interpretation, on essentials of Islam whatever there are? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what you just said. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And practically whatever... the difference of interpretation that is practically evident is less of a difference than the mutual difference of other sects. I said more than that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then you also stated that you consider them infidels in a sense...... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In a sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That they are outside the circle of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: But not outside the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now the question arises that when a Muslim, if you say that Muslims are infidels, outside the circle of Islam, those who consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet do not believe. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And are members of the Muhammadan community and not Muslims. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 317 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, do they remain members of the Ummat-e-Muhammadiya? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they remain members, but they are not Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If Muslims, who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, and they say: "Whoever believes him to be a prophet is a disbeliever and is out of the bounds of Islam," then does that mean the same? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, they will tell you what that means. I cannot tell you what it means for someone else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if you call someone a disbeliever, they can call you a disbeliever. If someone calls you a disbeliever, you can call them a disbeliever. You say that fatwas keep returning against each other. If you call them "disbelievers" and they pass a resolution in the Assembly that you are disbelievers. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have not called anyone... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But in this sense, that they are outside the bounds of Islam but remain in the nation, then you would have no objection? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I would not object to why they say it, I would object to why they say it wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, wrong, they are also saying that you are saying wrong. That is also their objection. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then one has to go into interpretation. I knowingly said this word. One has to go into interpretation. 318 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 6th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is that: I call you Haji, You call me Chachi. You call me infidel, and I call you infidel, then this series continues. So therefore, You cannot deny me the right if you claim this right? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Then what was the result? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you shouldn't have any objection if this assembly passes this resolution that Ahmadis are outside the circle of Islam, not Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If it isn't, because it will mislead. I say, what objection would you have if this assembly passes this resolution that all other sects are non-Muslim minorities? Consider the other side as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The differences are so great that either we change our name or you change your name, do you agree to this? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, you talk about one side, you don't bring the other side to the front. When you say, what objection do we have if this assembly declares us a non-Muslim minority, then you should also think about... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I, I (reaction) Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Secondly, what objection do others have? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I didn't say non-Muslim minority, I said "outside the pale of Islam". CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 319 Excluded? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning outside the Muslim community? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: outside the pale of Islam, meaning outside the Islamic sphere. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that would mean excluded from the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What would be the Urdu translation of 'outside of pale of Islam'? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Excluded from the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what would be the English translation of "excluded from the circle of Islam"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Out of the circle. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Out of the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. The meaning of "circle" is circle. Where did "Pale" come from? What is the meaning of "circle of Islam"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: All right. If the National Assembly passes a resolution that Ahmadis are outside the circle of Islam, you have no objection? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, with the addition of phrase that 'they are within the pale of Islam'. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Within the pale of Islam but outside the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Outside the circle of Islam and....... 320 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug., 1974 Then along with that, don't just say this about every sect, not according to our views, but according to their mutual religious decrees. No, we have no objection. You choose one sect. When the conditions of all Islamic sects are the same, you say that we will pass this regarding one sect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Sahib! We will not do it about Mirza Nasir Ahmad and others. That is not fair. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My point is, what if all the sects agree and say, yes, do it for the Barelvis, is that okay? If all the sects don't agree, then I cannot do it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All the sects have agreed? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here in the Assembly, I have the impression that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Assembly, the Assembly that is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, this whole program is for them. If they say so, I have no objection. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No sir, and two villages get together and issue their own fatwa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is impossible.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And, and these countries of Africa, they issue their own fatwas. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If a cleric issues a fatwa in a mosque, I do not attach importance; but if it is the National Assembly of Pakistan, I do. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 321 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, what fatwa will the people of Nigeria give? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you believe that the fatwa of all the Muslims of the world is necessary, that will also be considered by the National Assembly. If you think that not the Assembly, but the Muslims of the world... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the fatwa of all the countries of the world. The National Assembly is not representative of the Muslims of Pakistan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It represents the people of Pakistan. It is the public National Assembly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are right. As far as I know... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If all the Assemblies of the world agree on this - i.e., Ho, UN, and OIC - then we will understand that we are leaving this matter to God. BODY Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Right now, a representative of the Muslims of the world... if you consider it, the Organization of Islamic Conference has - Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Rabita al-Alam al-Islami, not Motamar. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Rabita al-Alam al-Islami. They have given a fatwa... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The fatwa that they have given, it says that they do the work of all Muslims. This that you have, will you keep it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, yes, please read it. 322 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 16th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have said that they are outside the pale of Islam; that is what I understand. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They, they, what they have, they say that they are wearing the cloak of Islam. Other than that, there is no other objection to it. They are building mosques, opening hospitals, taking care of daughters, they are publishing the Holy Quran. Etc., etc., but all is apparent, from the inside they are infidels. Is this any proof? From the inside, they are infidels. "هل شق عقد قلبه" The Holy Prophet (PBUH) said: Did you tear his heart open? Who is the power in the world that can tear open a heart and issue a fatwa? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I am not going into reasoning. Once a fatwa comes, then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well, if you are not going into reasoning, then I do not talk without reasoning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying that currently, they have issued a fatwa. I am not saying anything about reasoning at this stage. They have issued a fatwa. Its reasoning comes after that. Their short order is this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And those fatwas that are related to them, regarding the Shia, and those Fatwas of the Haramain Sharifain, against Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab and his followers, for twelve years they did not allow the Wahhabis to perform Hajj. Will we forget our entire history? Now in haste, will we forget the pages of history in order to make a decision? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 323 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, so are you saying that if the Muslims' Islamic Summit etc. makes any decision, then you will accept it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is what I am saying. The actual thing that I am saying is, I didn't mention any Islamic Summit. I said that if the majority of countries' Legislative Assemblies decide, then even while considering that matter to be wrong, we will leave it to Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then, there is no meaning to their making a decision, you still won't accept it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How can I accept something that my heart does not believe in? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then, the question doesn't arise, does it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, so then don't make an effort. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then it should be left to this assembly. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that's fine, I am not the ruler of this assembly. I am a very humble person. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The assembly has to make a decision now. Our effort is to reach a decision where no one is harmed, no one is troubled, the country benefits, and the country does not suffer any loss. This is everyone's effort. Otherwise, why would we trouble you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our effort is also the same. Our prayers are also the same, that the country does not suffer any loss. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The question does not arise. We are making an effort to see if we can come to some solution. 324 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, after "if," why do you only target the Ahmadiyya community, when other sects have the exact same conditions in terms of fatwas, and even stricter? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It concerns separation, Mirza Sahib! I am mentioning to you, "Did the true Nazarene not separate his followers from the Jews? This is also from Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Sahib: "Did the true Nazarene not separate his followers from the Jews? Have those prophets whose era's knowledge has reached us, and we also see their communities, did they not separate their communities from outsiders? Everyone will have to admit that indeed they did. So if Hazrat Mirza Sahib, who is a prophet and messenger, has separated his community from outsiders according to the path of prophethood, then what is new and unique about it?" Here, regarding "separated," this is what I wanted to clarify. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. "Separated" only means that efforts were made to prevent the acceptance of influence from others. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this a separate Ummah (nation)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the name of Ummah is not even here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am talking about this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, absolutely not, categorically not, no question even arises. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 325 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then it goes on to say: "From the day you became Ahmadi, your nation became Ahmadi. For identification and distinction, you can mention your قوم (Qaum) or ذات (Zaat) if someone asks. Otherwise, now your قوم (Qaum), your گوت (Got), your ذات (Zaat) is Ahmadi. Then, leaving Ahmadis, why do you look for قوم (Qaum) among non-Ahmadis?" "Why do you look for قوم (Qaum) among non-Ahmadis?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The phrase "non-Ahmadi" is incorrect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I want to ask this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You should say Wahabi, Ahl-e-Hadith, etc., etc. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is your quotation, so I am saying it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where is this from? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mullah Makna Allah, pages 46-47, written by Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, until I see it... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please check, please verify. Is it here? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we don't have it here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And this is attributed to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, please verify this: "My Ummah will have two parts, one that will adopt the color of Christianity and be destroyed, and the other that..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "One that will adopt the color of وحیت (Wahiyat)?" 326 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Christianity" Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, "the color of Christianity." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "will adopt and be destroyed. The second, those who will adopt the color of Mahdism." This was published in "Al Fazl" on January 26, 1911. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In the "Al Fazl" of January 26, 1911? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Was there an article published in which... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, those quotations, Mirza Sahib, it is in that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then further on, there is his quotation that: "The person who claims prophethood, in that claim it is necessary that he affirms the existence of God Almighty, and also says that revelation descends upon me from God Almighty, and also, he should recite to the creation of Allah that word which has descended upon him from God Almighty. And make a community that considers him a prophet, and considers his book to be the Book of Allah." Is this a reference to himself or to Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Huh? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 327 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This, what Mirza Sahib has... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The person who..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, to whom does this pronoun refer? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It refers to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, from "Aina-e-Kamalat." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it their writing? Is it their writing? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And to whom does the pronoun refer? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 344 of "Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam" Page 344. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 344? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. It says that: "A person who claims prophethood must necessarily, in that claim, acknowledge the existence of God Almighty and also say that revelation descends upon them from God Almighty, and also recite to the creation of Allah the words that have been revealed to them from God Almighty, and form a community that considers them a prophet and considers their book to be the Book of God." So, does this reference pertain to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) or does it refer to themselves? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we will have to check this. No, this is in the context, actually... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am saying the same thing, that it could also be that their... towards the Holy Prophet... 328 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because they didn't say that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This will be known from the context as to what it is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And Mirza Sahib! You said yesterday that the Ummah Prophet does not have his own Sharia, he is non-Sharia, he does not bring his own law? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is one of his attributes, and there are others in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: as far as law is concerned.………..….., Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As far as law is concerned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He interprets it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. He does not have his own Sharia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if he has Sharia then he will not be Ummah? He will Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Absolutely. have to start his own Ummat? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is attributed to the same Mirza Sahib that: "Understand this too, what is Sharia? The one who, through his revelation, states a few orders and prohibitions and establishes a law for his Ummah, he becomes the possessor of Sharia. So according to this definition, our opponents are also accused because there are orders and prohibitions in my revelation as well." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 329 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In this, "Our opponents are deniers" indicates that an objection is being answered. And by keeping that objection in mind, if all the pages are read, then the correct meaning can be found, otherwise not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am presenting this to you again. Please understand this as well. Arba'een Number 4, Page 6. Have you seen it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have seen it. In this, you have written in the footnote that: "I have come to revive the commands and prohibitions of the Sharia of Muhammad." You have said in another place that: "Not even a dot of the Holy Quran can be changed." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have told you here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, they have written that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Under "commands and prohibitions," it is written in the footnote that these are the commands and prohibitions of the Holy Quran. It is in the text as well and in this as well. According to us, not even a dot of the Sharia of the Holy Quran can be abrogated. And the commands and prohibitions that are in the revelations of the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement command that the commands and prohibitions of the Sharia of the Holy Quran should be followed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, may I ask you whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib claimed to be a Sharia-bearing prophet? Or do you accept that he had his own Sharia? 330 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad, you neither brought Sharia nor did you claim to be a Sharia prophet. On the contrary, repeatedly, many times, you said aloud that the Holy Quran is a complete and perfect Sharia and Allah Almighty has revealed to you: "الخير كله في القرآن" "All kinds of goodness originate from the Great Quran." And the commands and prohibitions that are mentioned in your writings or revelations, those commands and prohibitions are found in the Holy Quran. This It is ordered that people's attention should be drawn to those commands and prohibitions, renew them and revive them. This is an excerpt from Izala Auham: "And we firmly believe that the Holy Quran is the seal of heavenly books and not a jot or tittle can be added or subtracted from its laws, limits, commands, and orders. And now there can be no such revelation or inspiration from Allah that can amend or repeal the commands of the Quran or change or alter any one command. If anyone thinks so, then in our opinion, they are outside the community of believers and are heretics and infidels." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a quotation from Al-Fadl, January 26, 1915, from Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib: "Not acknowledging the Promised Messiah as Ahmad, the Prophet of Allah, and considering him a follower, understanding him as part of the followers, is like considering the Holy Prophet, the Leader of the Messengers, and the Seal of the Prophets as a follower, including him among the communities, which is a great disbelief and disbelief within disbelief." Mirza Nasir Ahmad, this sentence seems to be broken and incomplete. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It's at the top. Let me read it again. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 331 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we will check that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this is from Al-Fazl, January 29, 1915: "Not accepting the Promised Messiah as Ahmad Nabi Allah..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will check this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...and considering you (Mirza Sahib) an Ummah, understanding you as part of the Ummah, is like including the Holy Prophet (Mirza Sahib), who is the leader of the messengers and the last of the prophets, into the Ummah, including him among the Ummahs, which is a great blasphemy and blasphemy upon blasphemy." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This quotation that you have read, in your own words, I cannot even call it a typographical error. Meaning, this is something that needs to be checked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please check it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it needs to be checked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because in this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, much has been written in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this is a complete departure. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely correct. I will check, God willing. This that you are saying about checking, after checking... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's why, Mirza Sahib!... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, in the morning, God willing, we will talk about it. The check is also necessary because what you said in English yesterday, that we... 332 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 If any aspect of disrespect inadvertently emerged regarding Mr. Maududi. The original in Urdu – My language – when I checked the address I gave, it had "Mr. Maududi." Mr. Bhutto. Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Oh? So they made it "Mr."? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, those who translated it made it "Mr." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I said. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And it is here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it is good if this misunderstanding is cleared up, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "And... And Mufti Mahmud Sahib. For us, everyone is Sahib (Sir). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is good if the misunderstanding is cleared up. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I also inquired about the Blackburn resolution in London. I received information that perhaps our embassy sent it, that this resolution was distributed. After being passed in the meeting, this was distributed. I cannot say whether it appeared in the newspaper or not. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it would have gone there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so you must have received a copy, for you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I did not receive any copy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, can you request it, can you ask them? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 333 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I haven't received a copy, but I will definitely ask. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because there were many people there to whom it was given, it was also given to newspapers. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, even its words are doubtful, that all Ahmadis are included in it. And our group is so small that I can't even recall the name. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, a small group, even five or six people, can pass a resolution that ... we Ahmadi Muslims...' Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, its words are, and in another place, Ahmadis are only written as Pakistanis, and the name Muslim is not with it in the same resolution. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right, if he did that, there would be no objection. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, in the same resolution, in another place... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is written in it. There is nothing to object to in that. But further on, they say... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, that's right, no, in any case, that is something to be checked, there is no dispute in that, is there? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "We Ahmadi Muslims... non-Ahmadi Pakistanis". Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That's right, we will check that. And then I...Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This was pointed out to me... 334 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's right, you pointed this out to me for the first time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar and Mirza Sahib! You said yesterday that Mirza Sahib's bio-data you ... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, it is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If it is there, please read it out so that it can be on record. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Very well, sir, I will read it out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If it is ready now. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it is ready. Should I read it out now? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If it is brief, then read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is not that brief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I only wanted those dates, etc. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you say so, we will change it, we will change it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, because it is only for the record, like you gave your bio-data. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I gave a brief one for you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since there are books about Mirza Sahib, a lot of literature. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am a very humble person. The status of the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement is different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I only want his bare facts; as for his teachings, that would be a very long thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmada: Yes, we have written big books with that in mind. You have written an autobiography in one book. So, we copied it. And at the beginning, the date of birth, and at the end, the date of death.... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, give its reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And we will shorten it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Shorten it somewhat. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: How much? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That depends on you. I am not objecting even to this. But I said brief record, sometime the whole thing may have to be published. So, it should. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, when the time comes, God willing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. That's why I'm saying that this thing should be on record. So, then tomorrow morning, okay? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This will be about 15-20 pages. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this too much? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, it is too much. So, we will recite it in the morning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the morning, or after shortening it somewhat...? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I will see, I will see, as much as possible. Mr. Chairman: So, that will do for the present, Mr. Attorney-General, Maghreb prayer's time. You would take about five minutes more or.......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just want to ask one or two questions. Mr. Chairman: All right. 336 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When Mirza Sahib says that: "My revelation contains does and does not_" laws...... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What is "does". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, it doesn't mean literal. That is ... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no. What is "does". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Order. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It is an order. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is an order. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The order is to establish the Sharia of Muhammad. It doesn't mean that a new Sharia will be revealed. And the order is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is already in the Holy Quran. They say: "In my revelation." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If you are inspired to establish the Sharia of Muhammad, then there is an order in your revelation. But that is not Sharia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if in their revelation it is said that Muslims are infidels, don't give them girls. That would also be a law, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That is not it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is not it? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Don't pray with them, is that also not it? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 337 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there no such law of their own? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Apart from the Holy Quran, outside of it, in addition to it, or diminishing it, there is no question of such a thing, there is nothing at all. For us, only the Quran is sufficient. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And that he is a prophet, is this in his revelation? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In the revelation, it is all about the prophet that: That Mahdi, whose prophecies were given by the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (peace be upon him), that he would be born in this era, in the last era, which is also mentioned in the Holy Quran, I am the embodiment of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This means it is his revelation? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, this is his revelation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not in the Holy Quran that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a prophet or will be. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Then that discussion about names becomes lengthy. The name of any prophet has not appeared in any book in this way. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, when the old prophets were there, some of them are specifically mentioned in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I mean those who passed before the Holy Quran, the conditions of the prophets, the Quran itself has said that we have not mentioned many, and some have been mentioned to increase your knowledge. And there are other spiritual benefits. 338 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And Mr. Mirza Sahib! Another word is used, that is, metaphorical prophet, or real prophet, reflectional prophet... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, reflectional and metaphorical, these... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is your interpretation of these? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The interpretation that the Sufis have. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, who do you call real? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We call a real prophet the one who brings a Sharia, and who, this station of prophethood, has not attained it through the complete following of anyone, in an independent capacity. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, who brings his own Sharia and the seal of another prophet is not on him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, some have come with Sharia, some have come without Sharia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, can those without Sharia also be real? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not independent. These real and independent, these have two separate meanings. Real is the one who - in our view - yes, real prophethood is that which brings a Sharia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Brings a Sharia? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Brings a Sharia. And independent prophethood is this, that not from the beneficence of another, but Allah Almighty has not, as a result of someone else's benefit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You call that independent? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is called independent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib an independent prophet according to you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, he is not, he is an Ummah prophet. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 339 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And real? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the real one is according to Sharia. We say that not even a dot of the Holy Quran can be abrogated. And independent, no. Because we say that a person who does not follow the Prophet cannot attain prophethood, nor the status of a truthful person, a righteous person, or a martyr, nor even the status of ordinary goodness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What does "metaphorical" mean? So many words have been used. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Manifestational and metaphorical" are terms used by the Sufis, and absolute. I can prepare those notes and give them to you if you like. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, generally, briefly, what is it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The meaning of shadow prophethood is this: the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement attained shadow prophethood, which means purely receiving from the blessings of Muhammad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And would you call that metaphorical too? Or is that different? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These are actually terms used by the Sufis. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here I will read a quote to you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that has appeared in our books as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. It says: "So, according to the meaning that the Sharia of Islam gives to a prophet, Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad Sahib is by no means a metaphorical prophet, but a real prophet." That is, his Shariat, as you say.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where is that reference from? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is from "Haqiqat-un-Nubuwwah," page 172. 340 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This "beech beech" and artificial, that has also come. Meaning these words have been used in a literal sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You see that again then. (To Mr. Chairman) We will continue tomorrow. Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow. The delegation is permitted to go and to be here tomorrow at 10.00 a.m.. The honourable members may keep sitting. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Will you keep this magazine? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Huh? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The Motamar Alam-e-Islami one? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, they are giving it to you. They will give it tomorrow after noting it down. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: There is nothing to say. Only the House is adjourned after the Delegation has left. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Any honourable member has to say anything? Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari! I will request the members to be in their seats. PHOTOGRAPH OF THE MOSQUE IN IJEBUODE, NIGERIA AND ITS CAPTIONS Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Sir! This is a pamphlet that they have given, due to which the people of the House may also have some misunderstanding. Since I was myself present in it, this whole incident happened in front of me. That is a separate matter, I will present it at some time... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Listen to him. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: But the first thing is that they have done this: And have given this map of the mosque, there is no objection to it. Look at its heading, it is in Arabic, shall I recite its Urdu translation? (Interruption) Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay, fine. First? (No intervention. First is. Meaning the first heading at the top is this: "حتى لا ننسى ما مراه القاديانيت صند عقيدتنا" (Lest we ignore the conspiracies of Qadyanis against our belief.) This is the first heading. The second heading in it is this: "هولاء يُحاربوننا في افريقيته مختلف الوسائل والاخاليد فيتغلغون في اوساط الرسميه به اسم الاسلام" (It is these people who are fighting us in Africa by means of various methods and infiltrating the Muslim people in the name of Islam.) The third heading is this, on this page: "لقد ناكش موتمر المنظمات الاسلاميه في العالم المنعقد به مكنه المكرمه في ربيع الأول موازی هم كان من ابرازها معالجته الطيارته الفكرية الموثره" 342 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 The anti-Islamic movements, with Qadianism at the forefront, were discussed in this destructive movement. (This conference of Islamic Organizations held at Mecca on 14th to 18th Rabi-ul-Awal discussed very important subjects. Prominent among these was how to meet the contemporary anti-Islamic movements. Qadianism came at the top of these subversive movements which were fully discussed. Its dangers to the Islamic World were exposed, as also the deceitful and disruptive methods employed by it.) Mr. Chairman: You put it to the witness. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Let me clarify it a little more. Mr. Chairman: No, no, you put it to the witness. Put it to the witness. (Interruption) No, no, one second. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Let me clarify it a little more. Now after that, it is not just the mosque that has been objected to... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: One minute, please listen. Yes, one second. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: It is not just the mosque, but further, they have also given a picture of the work they are doing in Africa. They have also given photographs of their group to show. And the headline is: We should not be unaware of what the Qadianis are doing. For this work, they have also shown their mosque and their own picture. And the second one in Nigeria - it is not written in this, it is obvious. Mr. Chairman: Ansari Sahib, this PHOTOGRAPH OF THE MOSQUE IN DEBUODE, NIGERIA AND ITS CAPTIONS Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Look at this ahead. Then it is possible that... Mr. Chairman: But you are not listening to me. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: But when this came up in the discussion, this thing came up. Mr. Chairman: Listen to me. Now this............ (Interruption) Mr. Chairman, listen to me for a second. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: So that no one objects after seeing the picture. Mr. Chairman, listen for a second. Ansari Sahib! You are not listening to me. 343 The document has been produced by the witness himself to contradict the question of the Attorney-General. The witness relies on this document. You can put to any of this........extracts of this document, yes. So, tomorrow it can be put. This you can discuss with the Attorney-General. Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Why shouldn't this magazine be placed on record? Mr. Chairman: It will come on record. It is on the record that it has been produced by the witness as his own defense. So, this will remain on the record and the honourable members can see it, if any. I think it should not be passed on. It should not be passed on. It should remain, it shall remain in my Chamber till it is translated and everything. And from 9.00 to 10.00 tomorrow, the members can You keep coming anyway, you will find excuses to see it in my chamber, yes. From 9.00 to 10.00 in my Chamber, all the magazine. members can see it 9.00 to 10.00 a.m. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Sir, the second thing 344 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: It will be handed over to Maulana Sahib for translation and tomorrow Maulana Sahib will hand it over to me at 9.00. SUPPLY OF COPIES OF THE PROCEEDINGS, RELATING TO CROSS-EXAMINATION TO MEMBERS/ATTORNEY-GENERAL Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Secondly, I want to submit that whatever he has said on their images… (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Photocopy of it… Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: …the record of whatever he has said, the answers, should be given to us so that we can prepare for the future. Mr. Chairman: Yes, I am doing it. As soon as possible, I am trying to get 250 copies of these proceedings so that these may be distributed among the members as soon as possible, within a few days. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: I would like to submit, Chaudhry Sahib!... Chaudhry Zahoor Elahi: Look, listen to my submission... (Interruption) Chaudhry Zahoor Elahi: Do not give two hundred and fifty at all, but five or seven, until we get these by evening… Mr. Chairman: You will… the Attorney General will get it; and the rest within… SUPPLY OF COPIES OF THE PROCEEDINGS, RELATING TO CROSS-EXAMINATION TO MEMBERS/ATTORNEY-GENERAL 345 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because there are some points like that. Mr. Chairman: Okay, it will be done. Chaudhry Zahoor Elahi: They need it immediately. Mr. Chairman: Absolutely. The Attorney-General needs it. Mr. Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Give it to them exactly as it is written. Mr. Chairman: I will ask the Secretary to deliver the copies. As......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whatever is prepared that will do, that will be sufficient. at least one copy - Whatever transcription is there. Mr. Chairman: Yes, copies of the proceedings to the Attorney-General at least. should be given to the Attorney-General, because tomorrow's brief cannot be prepared without today's proceedings. So, even if you have to put more time or over-time, one copy has to be prepared. So, the House is adjourned to meet tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Thank you very much. [The Special Committee of the whole House adjourned to meet at ten of the clock, in the morning, on Wednesday, the 7th August, 1974.] PCPPI 1090 (10) NA—12-2-2011-400. No. 03 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Wednesday, the 7th August, 1974 Contains Nos. 1-21 CONTENTS 1. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation....... 2. Correction of Mistakes in the Record of the Proceedings 3. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation 4. Point of Order RE: Reading out Written Answers & Questions 5. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation (Continued) Pages 3501-386 386-388 388-393 394-395 396-423 (Continued) PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD. PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD. b. 7. Production of References/Quotations before the Delegation 8. Leakage of Questions to be put to the Delegation. 9. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation—Continued}. 10. Review of Procedure to oral Progress of Cross-examination Written Answers oral Questions in the Cross-Examination 423-426 426-427 428-497 498-504 504-505 No. 03 C THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Wednesday, August 7, 1974 Contains Nos. 1-21 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Wednesday, August 7, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House of the National Assembly of Pakistan met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at ten o'clock in the morning, Mr. Speaker (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair as Chairman. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN 349 350 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 7th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Is Mr. Attorney-General prepared? Should we call them? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): Yes, Sir. Mr. Chairman: They may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber). CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, have you verified that quotation which I read out yesterday? Mirza Nasir Ahmad (Head of Jamaat Ahmadiyya Rabwah): I will read out one reference to you again, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let's take one by one. You read out a reference from January 29th, 1915. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that last one, I will read that and then later the rest which you have noted down the references for. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Is yours from January 29th, 1915? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Please read it out, we will verify it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will recite the last one I read out. Then I will come to the 29th. I don't remember that one right now. Yes, I have marked it in my file. The last question which I asked you and you were..........your information will be verified. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 351 It was that: So the Islamic Sharia what meaning of prophet does, according to that meaning Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed Sahib is not at all metaphorical but a real prophet. (Haqiqat-un-Nabuwwah Page 174) Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, we have seen it there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The words that are there, are these: "I had written that if in the real sense, if the real means that new Sharia A prophet who brings, which meaning the Promised Messiah himself has done, then I also consider Hazrat Messiah Maud to be a real prophet. I do not believe. But if in comparison to the real, artificial or nominal is kept, then I am not an artificial prophet I believe. I am saying this on my own. What is written here is that it is nominal kept I consider you a real prophet. That is, I do not consider it artificial. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: A pretender, I do not consider a fraud. But if the real meaning If it is done by the bringer of Sharia, then I do not even consider it real. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please clarify that ..... Thank you. So when he says that: My revelation has commands and prohibitions too" Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What reference is this? Yes, this thing was discussed yesterday too. 352 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, eighty-three, eighty-four, which are, the last few lines of eighty-three in "arijin". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "God has not placed any restriction on the Sharia with slander except for this. You should also understand what the Sharia is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. The one who, through His revelation, stated a few commands and prohibitions and appointed a law for his Ummah, he became the possessor of the Sharia." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. This I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Before you proceed further to clarify ...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This reference that I asked you about, is it about yourself or about the Holy Prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. This is stated further. He himself has stated it. Therefore, according to this definition, our opponents are also accused. This is a responsive answer to the objection raised by the opponents. And the responsive answer is: "And Allah Almighty revealed to us that: قُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ يَغُضُّوا مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِمْ وَيَحْفَظُوا فُرُوجَهُمْ ذَٰلِكَ أَزْكَىٰ لَهُمْ "So the verse of the Holy Quran is a revelation, and this command and prohibition came into it, which means that We have been sent to establish the commands and orders of the Holy Quran, not to establish our own Sharia. Example is given further, verse of the Holy Quran. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 353 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir, I want to clarify one thing with you in this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And when you say further: "And similarly, until now in my revelation there are commands and prohibitions." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, these are the verses of the Holy Quran in which there are commands and prohibitions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those verses of revelation keep coming upon them which are present in the Holy Quran? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The verses were from the Holy Quran and the meaning of it is that establish the commands and prohibitions of the Holy Quran in the world, tell people according to it that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nothing of your own? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Nothing of my own, no command of my own and... Hmm... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And if you say that by Sharia, that Sharia is meant in which there are new commands..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "...then this is false." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a great clarification of the previous one that no new commands have come upon me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Meaning the Quranic teaching is present in the Torah as well. If you say that Sharia is that in which..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "...there are new commands, then this is false." 354 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, let's move on: ....... Meaning, Quranic teachings are present in the Torah. If you say that Sharia is that in which some commands and prohibitions are mentioned, then this is also false because if the Torah or the Holy Quran ... mentions the rules of Sharia, then there is no room for Ijtihad (independent reasoning). In short, all these thoughts are futile and short-sighted. We believe that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets and the Quran is among the divine books." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is the Seal. However, God Almighty has not forbidden Himself from renewing through some other means to issue these commands: do not lie, do not give false witness, do not commit adultery, do not murder. Obviously, to state such things is a statement of Sharia, which is also the work of the Promised Messiah. Then that is your argument. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this has become very clear, the whole thing, absolutely clear that the Holy Quran commands are revealed through revelation. This does not mean that it is a new Sharia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is repeating the same? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, as a renewal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then I asked you about this, the June 26th and 29th Al-Fazl. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Al-Fazl"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Al-Fazl, in which it was said that: Since we consider Mirza Sahib to be a prophet, since we believe in him, and non-Ahmadis do not believe in you as a prophet, therefore, according to the teachings of the Holy Quran that denying a prophet is also disbelief, non-Ahmadis are also disbelievers. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 355 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this June 29, 1922? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir, 26 and 29 are written here, maybe it was bi-weekly at that time. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not 26-29, this is June 29, 1922. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will read this entire original reference, it will clarify itself: Since we consider Hazrat Mirza Sahib to be a prophet, and non-Ahmadis do not consider you to be a prophet, therefore, according to the teachings of the Holy Quran that denial of even one prophet is disbelief, non-Ahmadis are disbelievers. According to this definition. I am saying this on my own behalf. There is a Hadith that *man tarak al-salata mutamadan faqad kafar* So, whoever abandons prayer becomes a disbeliever. So, the word disbelief has been used in a limited sense. Therefore, according to the teachings of the Holy Quran that denial of even one prophet is disbelief, non-Ahmadis are disbelievers. I have faith in Allah Almighty. Our community also has faith in Allah Almighty. We have faith in all the prophets of God. I and our community believe the Holy Quran to be the word of God. We have faith in all heavenly books. We adhere to all the commandments of Islam and consider all the commandments of Sharia as obligatory acts and urge the community to act upon them and try our best to act. We have faith in angels. We have faith in resurrection after death. We have faith in fate and destiny. We offer prayers. We fast. We perform Hajj. In fact, I myself have performed Hajj. We pay Zakat. We consider it necessary to act on these issues and commandments and consider even a slight separation from them as destruction and ruin. We neither believe in nor consider it permissible for any new Sharia to come after the Holy Quran. Hazrat Mirza Sahib new Sharia 356 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 You did not bring it. You said that if I give any new order, I would become a disbeliever. This whole reference is clarifying itself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, clarification... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, in this, where it says "disbeliever," you say that "disbeliever" is in a limited sense, that the Islamic community... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, in a limited sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not outside the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, actually, I have to clarify it. Yesterday I realized, and I was restless all night. There was a bit of anxiety in between. So, such a great religion it is. There should be no misunderstanding about it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, that's right, because our... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: At least I should make it clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because it was a new thing that one remains in the community but not in Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This was new for you, but I had read out references from old books. Not from my own, Ibn Taymiyyah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I did not note his reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ibn Taymiyyah's reference? (To a member of his delegation) Where is it? Take it out. (To the Attorney General) I will have it noted down now. (To a member of his delegation) What was read yesterday. (To the Attorney General) Let them take it out. (To a member of his delegation) From where I had read. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION You read a reference from January 29, 1915, this is "Al Fazl" January 29. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Please read this out. I will verify it later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Not acknowledging the Promised Messiah as the manifestation of Allah and considering you (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) as a follower, considering you as an Ummi (unlettered) group, is like declaring the Holy Prophet, who is the chief of the messengers and the seal of the prophets, as a follower, including him among the followers, which is a great blasphemy and blasphemy upon blasphemy." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this reference from January 29, 1915? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I would like to submit to all of you that "Al Fazl" newspaper was not printed on January 29, 1915. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: January 29, 1915, or is this reference in some other issue? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. It is not in any issue, this reference does not exist. It has been fabricated. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why I am verifying it, that is why I am saying it. Or could it be somewhere else? Maybe a misprint? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. It is not anywhere, it is not in any place. In this short time, since the newspaper has been printed, we have not seen it. But according to our understanding, according to our training, I say... 358 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, it is alright. That is why I gave you the newspaper... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And gave the reference of the newspaper, the newspaper that is not printed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I understand. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it is not anywhere else either. It is not anywhere else either. This file is here. You can take out the 29th from it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But sir, wasn't "Al-Fadl" being printed in 1915? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In 1915, "Al-Fadl" was printed every third day. And the 29th is the date it was not printed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Al-Fadl" was being printed. It was not printed on the 29th. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It was not daily. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I submitted that what was there before, in that I said 26th and 29th, bi-weekly, so out of those.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this reference is not anywhere. There is no reference before or after it at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You can see on this file that the 29th is not there. (To a member of his delegation) Show it to them, show it, the 29th is not there. (To the Attorney General) No, no, they will show it to you. (To a member of his delegation) Take it out, take it out, they will be troubled unnecessarily. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let them verify it, they must have verified it. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Please take out page 29. (To the Attorney General) Look, this is 26 which we have seen. That is not it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, I have seen it. Yes, yes, I have seen it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look at all the pages before and after. This reference to Ibn Taymiyyah is from Kitab al-Iman, page 132, published in Egypt. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Kitab al...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Kitab al-Iman 132, page hundred and thirty-two, published in Egypt. It is printed in Egypt. It is printed in different countries, so its... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't know the year of the edition? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. (To a member of his delegation) Is this the book? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There must be several editions of this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It's the Egyptian edition, published in Egypt. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because there are different editions of some of Mirza Sahib's books. That is also confirmed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Published in Egypt, 132. And if you need more details, it's in our camp. From there... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, that's enough. If there is a need, we will see. Now Mirza Sahib! I don't think I have given you any other reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: January 26, 1916. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will verify again where I found this. 360 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. It contained the subject that the word "Ummah" has been used. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will verify it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not "Millat," no, no, "Ummah," sir. That is very clear, its answer... But the original might be found. There might be a mistake in the words there too. That is why I requested with utmost respect that the reference should be given here after reading. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's why we are getting it verified. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because misprints happen. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is repeated sometimes in a newspaper reference, sometimes in a magazine. So we will take clarification from you after verifying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One, Mirza Sahib! A quotation, "Tatur Ilhami," Page 171, that: "Whoever differentiates between me and the Prophet ﷺ, he has neither accepted nor recognized me." I am asking this question because is this correct or is it just a quotation like that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Man Faraqa Baini Wa Bainal Mustafa..." Its meaning is this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir. Is this his quotation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a quotation. But only we can tell its meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am asking about that... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 361 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, this is a quotation. "Whoever differentiates between me and Mustafa." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not volunteering to tell you what is meant... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: You stated that: "My existence has vanished, and whoever differentiates between me and you, meaning whoever considers my existence separate from Muhammad ﷺ, is mistaken; I am sacrificed." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Fana Fi al-Rasool (annihilation in the Prophet)? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The same concept? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. You stated: "He is. What am I? Therefore, the decision is this," meaning the Holy Prophet... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because the impression it creates, Mirza Sahib! is that an Ummah cannot be superior to the Prophet, not even equal. This impression.... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: They are not equal; this is a claim of complete annihilation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Fanā fi al-Rasool? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. These are all over your books. As I mentioned, it says in Urdu: "He is. What am I? Therefore, the decision is this." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They don't consider themselves superior, do they? 362 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This Mirza Nasir Ahmad is not clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Don't you consider equal? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "I am the humblest of servants" He did not call himself just a servant, but the most insignificant, a servant among servants of Muhammad (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, that is correct, you have already narrated that. For clarification. (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I asked some questions about the separatist tendency in Ahmadis that we are a separate nation, we are separate with regard to that there is a statement of Mirza Bashir-ud-Din, Mahmud Ahmad. Before I ask about this statement, there is an impression that before the Independence, the stand of your Jamaat was that you are a separate entity, you have nothing to do with Muslims, you are just like Christians or Parsees; but after Independence, you have taken the stand that you are part of Muslims or Muslim Millat or Muslim nation, but before that, I mean to say, if you know that and you can reply. With that background, I am reading out this....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I do not know what you are referring to, because I have never....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is an impression that before Independence...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right, please read. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......You said that you were a separate entity like Christians and Parsees ........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 363 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ……………..But after Independence you asserted that you were part of Muslim Nation, Muslim Millat, not before...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not before the declaration of Pakistan?...... 46. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The creation of Pakistan? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Independence. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: About that time, '47 up to that time', Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It was then that we fought the case for Muslim League and Pakistan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: That was....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...Shoulder to shoulder with the Muslim League....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That was after 3rd June, 1947. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before the creation of Pakistan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar:Before the....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before the creation of Pakistan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: Before the announcement. Before the announcement that Pakistan had to become a reality, was going to be established put it that way the 3rd June statement of 1947. I fully...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I think the imagination is too far. 364 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I think that this is an impression and therefore..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It might be an impression in some minds. Let us clarify it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. This is a statement of Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Ahmad - "Al-Fazal" 13th November, 1946......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This reads: "I sent word to a senior, responsible British officer through my representative that, like the Parsis and Christians, our rights should also be recognized. To which the officer said that they are a minority, and you are a religious sect. To this, I said that Parsis and Christians are also religious sects, and just as their rights have been recognized separately, so should ours be. You produce one Parsi, and in comparison, I will keep producing two Ahmadis." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is that it has a history, this very... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Before I conclude this, Sir, I want you to be in picture because there is also a paper "Impact" published in England, and you might have seen it........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When was it published? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 27th June, 1974. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, it is not in my knowledge. Which one is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:"Impact". CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 365 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this from '37? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, '74. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: '74. Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is after the Rabwah incident. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, from this, "Two into one would not go." Please take a look. Below, what they have written about Pakistan. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Two into one would not go." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now I would like to read this, Sir, so that... I don't want to read part of it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the thing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Impact" International, fortnightly, 14th to 27th June, 1974. It is published... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You would like... whether I have a right to these views or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When I said that there is an impression, this is one of the impressions, generally this impression, that before the Independence this was the stand of the Ahmadis. And here I would read... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who is the writer? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I really do not know. But this is a magazine published... 366 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the standing of this publication? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: May be nothing at all, Sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Have we got anything to do with this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you have got nothing to do with it. I dont know. I do not say that you have anything to do or it is your publication or it is authoritative pronouncement of Ahmadiyya Jamaat. It is one of the magazines, published in England, which has reported that Press Conference of Ch. Zafarulla Khan and what happened in Pakistan. So I read that: "Pakistan's Qadianis or Ahmadis problem and the recent trouble surrounding it revolves around the interesting question whether the Qadianis should he regarded as a non-Muslim minority in a Muslim society or a Muslim minority in a non-Muslim society, for such is the fundamental and mutually exclusive nature of the differences that by no stretch of argument can the two be forced together under one Muslim label. The matter. involved no complicated theology as Sir Zafrulla, a prominent leader of the Ahmadiyya moment..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this portion the writer's own opinion? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. That's what I am explaining, that's why I am reading the whole thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I mean. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not want to read a portion of it..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib did not say it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not want to read a portion of it because that would create misunderstanding. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Alright, alright. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 367 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am concerned with only one part of it, but I am reading it so that there may be no misunderstanding: "The matter involved no complicated theology as Sir Zafrullah, a prominent leader of the Amadiyya movement, explained last week to the Press in London, they regarded Muhammad (peace be upon him) as only the last law bearing Prophet and held Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Prophet raised in divine Command and in fulfilment of the prophecies in regard to the advent of Messiah. (This is Choudhry Sahib's quotation). But, as he admitted, Muslims believe that there is to be no kind of Prophet after Muhammad, the question boils down to this that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was either of the two a true Prophet or a false Prophet. His prophethood being the basis of those who believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Qadianis, and those who deny, the Muslims, obviously do not belong to a single category of faith. Understandably, from the Qadiani viewpoint too, those who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his message are Kafirs. "It is obligatory on us to consider non-Ahmadi a non-Muslim and not to offer prayers behind them because we consider them repudiators of one of the Prophets of Allah", I continue the quotation, "The child of a non-Ahmadi is also a non-Ahmadi and we should not offer prayers even for him. Hazrat Massih-e- Maood Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has expressed strong resentment against an Ahmadi who would give his daughter in marriage to a non-Ahmadi." "Anwer-e, Khilafat" Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad, Khilafa-i-Qadian, pages 89-84). When the Pakistan founder Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, died, Sir Zafarulla, then Pakistan's Foreign Minister, stood aside and did not join the funeral prayers. A year before Pakistan's independence...." Now, Mirza Sahib, here comes the quotation which I just read: "A year before Pakistan's independence, (quotation starts) 1 sent word through a representative of mine to a highly responsible British Officer to the effect that our rights too should be recognized like Parsees and Christians. 368 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 officer thereupon said, "They are minorities while you are a religious sect". I said, "Our separate rights should be recognized just as theirs have been recognized. For every one Parsi I would produce two Ahmadis." And this is - I shall give the date - 11-13-1946. "This was Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mahmud, the head of the Qadiani Community, and the probable emissary was Sir Zafrulla. At the time of independence and demarcation of boundary, the Qadians submitted a representation as a group separate from Muslims. This had the effect of decreasing the proportion of the Muslim population in some marginal areas in the Punjab and their consequent award to India. Gurdaspar was given to India to enable her to link with Kashmir. The Qadiani's insistence on being treated as part of the main body of Islam was, therefore, opposed to Pakistan's position. Very early on, the Qadiani leadership exhorted its followers to convert the small population of Baluchistan and be in a position to call at least one Province our own, and to join the Armed Forces. The subsequent Qadiani acquisition of very powerful position in business and in industry, civil and military, has aroused fears of an eventual Qadiani take-over of Pakistan. Many allege a Qadiani role in the break-up of Pakistan. Suggestions to this effect were made even in the corres- pondence column of 'Bangladesh Observer'. Given this background, the recent eruption of widespread disturbance should come as no surprise, but it is deplorable too. The Muslims allege the Qadianis behave violently, arrogantly and provocatively. But the Muslims' own obligation to behave just is a unilateral one. In fact, by their propensity to get provoked and hysterical, they have permitted the unscrupulous to exploit the situation to their end. Whether this is happening now is difficult to say yet. However, the basic problem which remains unresolved is that of the Qadiani minority status. Everything may not be so Islamic in Pakistan, but she definitely has an exemplary record of fair treatment of her minorities - Parsees, Christians, Hindus and Jews - and the Qadianis, when accorded constitutional rights and safeguards as a minority, CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 369 should hope to live in peace and amity. The fact that they have come to occupy key positions in the Country's economic, political, military life shows that there is no anti-Qadiani hostility or discrimination as such. But complication is caused by the desire to overreach both economically and politically. While a High Court Judge is already enquiring into the trouble, Sir Zafrulla's attempt to involve the Human Rights Commission and other international agencies, and disclosure that they have approached the American State Department and the British Foreign Office, were bound only to create more misgivings." I just wanted that one portion, Sir, but that.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The source of this article...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are the views of....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: is the one who is well-versed in the false and in the spreading of false allegations against Jamaat-i-Ahmadia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not saying that he is a truthful person or a false person. I have just said that these are the views. He has reported the Press Conference and he says that this stand of Ahmadis....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, these are not the views expressed by Ch. Zafrulla Khan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I have said these are his views and comments on Ch. Zafar Sahib's Press Conference or whatever Chaudhry Sahib has said in the Press conference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The views expressed in this article have no association, no correction with the expressions of Ch. Zafrulla Khan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not say that these are his comments. Whether the.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will have to look at that, check it. I don't even know if it exists. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please take a look. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is noted. (To a member of his delegation) Which note, which newspaper? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, after looking at the newspaper... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 371 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please see, it is of January 13, 1946. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Give us this file. Maybe it will be needed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which one? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: You had to give the one from Rabita Alam-e-Islami as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have brought it. They will give it to you. Sir, now I go to another subject. What is the concept or meaning, according to you, of requires explanation, because I have some idea that it is Essa Because this is something which? (Massih-e-Maood) مسیح موعود reincarnate or some such thing; but (Alai-his-Salam) عیسی علیہ السلام we want to be clear on this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This impression has arisen in some circles that perhaps we believe that the Messiah The spirit of Nazareth has entered this being. It's wrong. The Hindu belief that souls change bodies, Not only do we not believe in it, but such harsh criticism, such strict Criticism is found in the books of the founder of the series that it makes this issue, of the Hindus, completely irrational. This is the same thing. Number (2): The Holy Prophet (PBUH) said that the Messiah will descend in the last era, for this Ummah. And just as it was said among the Jews before that Elijah the Prophet would come before the Messiah. So there was a dispute over it. That's a long story, that discussion has happened. So Hazrat Messiah said that he himself was not to come, but someone else was to come with the qualities that resemble him, and because of his nature and his spirit. And they have arrived. Because there was deception before, the Ummah The Muslim community got the idea that he himself has to come, he is sitting in the sky and he has to come. 372 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Now the Hadith has explained very clearly that these are two different entities. Because the Holy Prophet (PBUH) was The form of Christ Moses was also shown, in revelation, and the form of Christ Muhammadi was also shown. And you Our hadiths have recorded it and in it their mercy is different, their features are different Their hair is different, and the fact that they are both completely separate has been confirmed. There are dozens of such references and evidences regarding this which tell us that the one who is to come is not the first is not Christ. Christ Moses is not to descend again, but a person possessing his qualities will be born will be born in that era when the world is launching a major attack on Islam. And Islam's The powers of Islamic teaching, the beauty of Sharia-e-Quran and its blessings are such that they will conquer the hearts of mankind for Muhammad and through it the Holy Quran . - It will be clear to the people that the Holy Quran contains such powerful arguments and such great decisive proofs and there is so much beauty and excellence and greatness and glory in this teaching that it does not need any external material power. Rather, when its teachings are presented to people, they are forced to accept them as true. I told them this in a press conference during my visit last year I told that look, Islam's teaching creates this kind of loving relationship between human and human that no other religion in the world and no other ism does that. So I bear witness that their eyes were moist. At one place I was asked that when Islam has such a great teaching, what arrangements have you made to convey it to our people? So it was said that in the qualities of a Messiah, with peace with reconciliation, with love, with selfless service, with compassion, a such a pure atmosphere, according to Islam, according to Islamic teachings, according to the Sharia of the Holy Quran, he will create and at that time humanity, this is a prediction, that a foundation will be laid. That is CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 373 All Christians, all those of other religions who exist today, will all be inclined towards Islam and become Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question was, Mirza Sahib! About this reincarnation... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there is no concept of reincarnation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then you said that the one possessing his attributes... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The one possessing the attributes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Attributes....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There are certain prominent things in Jesus of Nazareth. The Messiah of Muhammad, peace be upon him, will also possess those prominent attributes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, when you say that he will possess his attributes, then I am surprised because it is written in some places in Mirza Sahib's books that: "What was the conduct of Jesus Christ? A glutton and a drunkard, neither ascetic, nor worshiper, nor truth-seeker, arrogant, self-centered, claimant of divinity." Is it there or not? Was this his view about Jesus Christ or Essa-ibn-e-Mariam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not his assertion about him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, it is, Sir, reported....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What he did assert was that. When we read the Gospel, you people have cruelly accused your Messiah of these things that are mentioned here. You have not made the accusations. You have repeated the accusations of the Gospel. 374 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at this. They say that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we will see later to find out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why clarification is necessary, isn't it, that Christ (peace be upon him)... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Please give the reference. If the book is here, we will look at it now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Maktoob-e-Ahmadiyya, page 21-24." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Which book? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Maktoob-e-Ahmadiyya." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maktoob-e-Ahmadiyya. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what was the conduct of Christ (peace be upon him)? A glutton, not ascetic, not devout, a truth-hiding, arrogant, self-absorbed, claimant of divinity. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then further they say: "Your (Jesus Christ's) family is very pure and chaste. Three grandmothers and maternal grandmothers of yours were adulteresses and prostitutes." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I said that I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please verify it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: After verifying... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am giving you the references for that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Which reference is this from? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 375 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who were those three adulterous valleys and maternal grandmothers of yours, from whose blood your existence came into being? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is a reference from the Bible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir. Appendix Anjam Atham, footnote number seven. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So these are your references, along with the Bible references that you say Christians have accused them of... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we will refer to the Bible... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that too, you too... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, we will mention the Bible references here. We will also mention what was said about Christ on our own. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, to clarify the position. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say that these are my attributes, and then along with this.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why the next reference is this: Jesus therefore cannot call himself good. Now, this is a very authentic....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Jesus? 376 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Isai (Jesus)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Jesus? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Jesus. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not a match? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whether he is the same person or not, that is for you to tell. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, I mean, I mean, from "Jesus" it is becoming clear that the idiom of the Gospel, he did not use that. Remember that he... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, they will explain. The words that are his: "Because of this, Jesus cannot call himself righteous because people knew that this person was a habitual drunkard and of bad character, not after claiming divinity but from the very beginning it seems like that. Therefore, the claim of divinity is the bad result of drunkenness." Now here it has nothing to do with Bible, in my....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh, yes, it is. Every word ...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This claim of divinity is the result of drunkenness... I mean he is concluding, he is coming to this conclusion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, No. We will prove this from the Gospel, we will explain it here, we will present it to everyone, everyone will know. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 377 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then further on, Mr. Mirza Sahib states. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, is this the same reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is another one, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which one is this? Anjam Atham? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sat Bachan. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Wasn't the first one Anjam Atham? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have already told you about "Anjam Atham". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I just told you, about Anjam Atham, footnote number seven. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Footnote number seven. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That came earlier. Now this is the third one, Sat Bachan? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir, this is the third one, it says: "You (meaning Hazrat Isa... This is in brackets. Not Jesus. It is written here: You were often in the habit of hurling abuses and using foul language. You were also somewhat in the habit of lying, and it is a matter of great shame that you plagiarized the Sermon on the Mount, which is called the essence of the Gospel, from the Jewish book "Talmud"." Is it in Bible somewhere? Mr. Nasir Ahmad: It is in their literature. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the Christian literature? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the Christian Literature. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Christ used to tell lies and stole the sermon of the Mount from Talmud? 378 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August 1974) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will prove every...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just saying this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes sir, I assure you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, that's why I am saying? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want to put everything to you so that there is no misunderstanding. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is correct. May Allah reward you. It will be very kind of you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anjaam Atham page 274 - Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says that: "In the hands of you (Hazrat Isa) there was nothing except deceit and lies." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, its reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is "Anjaam Atham" the same page as it is, 276. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 276, 274, 276 (Hazrat Isa's) inclination towards prostitutes and his companionship with them is probably due to the ancestral relationship between them." Anjaam Atham page 276, Hasti ki Injeel, here again he is referring to the Gospel. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Everywhere it is the same. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what you have said. I will tell you more, I will make you hear more: "It is evident from the Gospel of Matthew that you had a very dull intellect. Like ignorant women and common people, you did not consider epilepsy a disease, but rather a condition of being possessed." Then, yes: "You often had a habit of cursing and using foul language. You would get angry over the smallest things. You could not control your emotions. But in my opinion, these actions of yours are not regrettable because you used to curse, and the Jews would take revenge with their hands. Also, remember that you had a habit of telling lies to some extent." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This has come up before. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it's in another place here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the reference for that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is on page of the remaining supplement to the journal "Anjam Atham," page 5, remaining footnote. Maybe they requoted again. So, you will agree that a prophet cannot possess these qualities either. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I agree that a liar... A prophet cannot possess these qualities, and the Gospel has leveled these allegations against Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, purely through fabrication and slander. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because the surprise was that you said that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What qualities? 380 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, we talk with love, we do not hurt anyone's feelings. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely talk with love. Giving their references in some context? That, when I will tell, not now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. That is for you to explain, either on the point of explanation so that the position is clarified. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely. God willing, it will become so clear that everyone will understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you are seeing that these things are coming in front of everyone everywhere. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's right, very good. Everything should be clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And when Mirza Sahib says that: "Forget the mention of the son of Mary Ghulam Ahmad is better than him" This is not in the Bible. This is his own. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not his destiny at all: "Forget the mention of the son of Mary Ghulam Ahmad is better than him" Ghulam Ahmad is not. What is the meaning? CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 381 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not Ghulam Ahmad? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ghulam Ahmad with annexation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, alright. So this is their poetry? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is Ahmad's Ghulam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, Ahmad's Ghulam, a follower. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ahmad's, as well as someone who receives blessings from Allah... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is one... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...is superior to the one who receives blessings from Moses. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, he is a follower, right? A follower of the Holy Prophet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not known how many followers of the Holy Prophet ﷺ have surpassed the prophets of the children of Israel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So here there is no mention of him, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, about himself? "Ghulam Ahmad is better than him." Meaning? He means himself? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He means himself. Ghulam Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad Muhammad Ahmad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I follow it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning, a follower of the Holy Prophet ﷺ. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He claims that he is superior to Jsa Ibne......? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because of Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. 382 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By the grace of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, as a result of attaining your blessings, those of your followers are ahead of the followers of Moses. We have taken a step further than you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. But can any follower be greater than a prophet, a true prophet? Please clarify this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That becomes a different issue. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, no. That's why I say: Forget the mention of Ibn-e-Maryam (son of Mary). Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My point is, one issue is whether the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement insulted or humiliated the Messiah. That was what was going on before. So I told you that I would prove that it is not so. And this is a different question. So I'll explain this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Along with that, let's also consider that I just recited this verse of Mirza Sahib: Forget the mention of Ibn-e-Maryam, Ghulam Ahmad is better than him. There are many other verses as well: "I am the one who has come according to prophecies. Where is Jesus, so he may see, or be contemporary?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Muhammad did great things. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then you should also explain that Ghulam Ahmad is saying there: "Until I reach India, or I die." CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 383 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What are the next verses? Perhaps they will explain it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I only have this verse noted. Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, then the next one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. A voice: The location revolves, The section is closed. Since, against the promise, it emerges from Iram. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you should explain that: Where is Jesus to see my soft feet? It is the same idea that I am superior or to Isa Aleh-is-Salam? This is the impression. And you will clarify. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, sir, I will tell you about it after looking at its context. (To a member of his delegation) Okay, note it down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, sir, you look into it, after looking at its context. Just now, sir, you said yesterday as well and in the memorandum as well. That how much reverence, affection, and love Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Sahib had for the Holy Prophet ﷺ: and how much he praise for him that is in Mahzar Nama in writing and some people who do the interpretation of Muhammad ﷺ. You do not agree with them. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, here it is written in one place that: "The Holy Prophet ﷺ used to eat cheese made by Christians even though it was known that it contained pig fat." 384 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Is it an aspersion or is it justifying eating of Paneer which contains......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is nothing. It is a translation of a Hadith. (Pause) These are the words of Zarqani. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are someone else's. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sir, shall I answer? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sir, the original text of the founder of Ahmadiyya order is this: "Explain to them in your house (he is writing a letter) that it is very forbidden to fall into such doubt and suspicion. It is the work of the devil who puts such doubts in. One should never fall into doubt, it is a sin. And remember that ghusl is not obligatory with doubt, nor can anything become impure with mere doubt. In such a situation, one should definitely offer prayers. And I will pray too, Insha'Allah. The Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his companions did not clean their clothes all the time like skeptics. They would eat cheese made by Christians, even though it was rumored (not that it was added) it was rumored that pig fat was added to it." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I want an explanation for. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The principle was that until there is certainty, everything is pure, nothing becomes impure with mere doubt. And this is the fatwa of Imam Abu Hanifa regarding doubt. Hazrat Allama Muhammad bin Abdul Baqi Zarqani (may God have mercy on him) has written in Zartani: (Arabic) DELEGATION This translates to: Warstin Abu Dawood narrates that Hazrat Ibn Umar stated that at the place of Tabuk, Cheese was presented to the Holy Prophet ﷺ which was made by Christians. Someone said at that time that this is made by Magians. You did not care about these things and ordered a knife and recited Bismillah and cut it. Abu Dawood and Musdas etc. have narrated it. And Abu Dawood Aalisi has narrated from Hazrat Ibn Abbas رضی اللہ تعالیٰ عنہ that on the occasion of the conquest of Mecca, you saw cheese so inquired: What is this? People submitted that it is an edible item that is made in the lands of non-Arabs. Upon this, you said, cut it with a knife and eat it. Musnad Ahmad and Baihaqi narrate that on the occasion of the Battle of Tabuk, the Holy Prophet ﷺ was presented with cheese. You asked: Where is it made? People submitted that it is made in Iran and in our opinion it also contains carrion. In our opinion, it also contains carrion. The Prophet ﷺ said: You can eat it. And in one narration it is that cut it with a knife, take the name of Allah and eat it, so the real issue is that of doubt. Mr. Chairman: That's all, that is all for the present. The delegation is permitted to leave and to report back at 12.15. The honourable members will keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Before we adjourn for the tea break,.... (Interruption) Before we adjourn for the tea break there are certain points for the cross-examination which we will discuss in our 386 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 points for the cross-examination which we will discuss in our chamber with the Attorney-General. And if anything remains outstanding, then we can discuss it in the House. CORRECTION OF MISTAKES IN THE RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, correction of mistakes in the record of the proceedings, there are a lot of mistakes in the record and that is why... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Secretary or the Joint Secretary should very carefully go through it because this is important. I have asked at a number of places that: "I am not giving you the example, the exceptional example, of a man who tells lies in order to save his life" and it is written: "I am giving the example". The word 'not' is missing. Maybe I was away from the mike; but it can make all the difference. So, there are so many other things. Some quotations have been left out and punctuation is required. When I say that "supposing I go and say that 'I am Christian', now "I am Christian" comes within inverted Commas. These things should be looked into... Mr. Chairman: Yes, that will be. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: before it is circulated to the members. Mr. Chairman: That we will; we will look into that matter. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. Mr. Chairman: And we adjourn the House to meet at 12.15. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you have noticed, Sir, that I was given some of the citations a different impression from the small quotation which I was given. I think it should be carefully studied before they ask me to put a question. Mr. Chairman: Yes. CORRECTION OF MISTAKES IN THE RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS Thank you very much. The House is adjourned for 12.15. 387 [The special Committee adjourned to reassemble at 12.15 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair] Mr. Chairman: Have those doors closed, because then those members sit there and make so much noise... Javed, have a man stand there. Those doors should be closed. Then the members are at liberty to discuss anything in the lobby whatever they like but not so much noise that attention of the House is attracted towards the lobby. Mr. Chairman: (to Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar). As you wish. You can look at the standing committee first. Yes, you write it down. Should I write it down on my responsibility, no, you write to me in request that we have to get it printed. I will write that you will not leak it, do it at your own risk. Yes. Yes. We cannot do it. Mufti Sahib himself got it done. Everyone gets it done at their own risk. There is no one in the gallery, do not look towards the gallery. I said no press is sitting here. Haider Sahib you have occupied this is very attention very attentive_ chair only to be in the The side comments that you are midst making, only you can answer for that. 388 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Today after nine, after the evening session, we shall review everything. After the last session today we will review everything وعليكم السلام as to how long we have ......... (The Delegation entered the Chamber Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib say this: "Leave the quarrel of the old caliphate. Now take the new caliphate. A living Ali (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) is present among you. You forsake him and search for a dead Ali." (Roohani Khazain, Vol. I, Page 31) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Dead Ali" means deceased, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Dead Ali" means deceased, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, you who... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, "Dead Ali" does not mean disrespect, but rather the Shia who was being addressed was made aware of the wrong and harmful trend of the nation, that the deceased elders are presented above their station, but those reformers of God who are alive among them are severely unappreciated. The previous nations were also harmed by this trend, and now such trends are proving harmful for the Muslim Ummah as well. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 389 Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) has an exemplary high character, about which he said that after recognizing these virtues, follow those elders in whom the qualities of Hazrat Ali are found. Therefore, he presented himself as a living example. It has no other meaning than this. As far as the status of Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) is concerned, the founder of the Ahmadiyya series had great respect and reverence in his heart for you. Therefore, you say: You have shown the great position of Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) in this and everywhere else. Therefore, it is not right to take a sentence out of its context and give it the wrong meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did you read the statement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That you gave your explanation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. The Arabic phrase that I have read is from the founder of the Ahmadiyya series. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, what else have you read and recited? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The rest is mine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is your explanation, so does it mean that the Holy Prophet has also passed away, so let's leave them for now? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. It means what I have just read: follow their virtues and get the same blessings from it. 390 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "A living Ali is present among you, you abandon him and search for a dead Ali." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Those who have passed away, not adopting their status in the world and their tradition is not correct in your opinion. Hazrat Ali has his own tradition, a model of life, very beautiful and worthy of emulation. You say emulate him. Emulate and every era should emulate." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "My impression is that where he says that, leave the mention of Ibn Maryam, Ghulam Ahmad is better than him." In that sense, leave Hazrat Ali, come to me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "I will only submit that your impression is wrong." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "You can say that." "Okay, now tell me, did Mirza Sahib say this: 'Hazrat Fatima placed Mir's secret on her thigh in a revelatory state and showed me that I am from it.'" (Ek Ghalati ka Azala page 11) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Let's see the original as well." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "You can have a look. I will ask the next question." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "I am looking. If the book is here, we can look at it now." Mr. Chairman: "Give the book." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Ek Ghalati ka Azala will be here?" Mr. Chairman: "If there is a book, give the book. Do you have the book?" 391 CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. I will go to the next question. Until then, you can take a look. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Just note that this is not the complete reference given in what you read earlier, but rather the part that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am only reading parts. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That part is correct, then you will give an explanation of what comes next. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, okay. Let's see now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he said: "Karbala is always with me I have a hundred Husseins in my collar." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did he say this? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: You said this. And this is a common saying among Shia Muslims. (To a member of his delegation) Get that out. (Said to the Attorney General) This reference is in Shia literature. And to understand this verse, it is necessary to know the verses that the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement said before this. You say: "He is not one, not two, not a few thousand youths. They are beyond count. Every moment demands a fresh killing, his face is adorned with the blood of martyrs. If such good fortune were our lot, it has gradually come to our destiny. Karbala is always with me, I have a hundred Husseins in my collar." 392 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 Before I explain its meaning... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This Allama Nogi, who is a Shia scholar, is very famous, an old-time scholar, Allama Nogi, this photocopy of his, the original India Office Record, actually all these objections are very outdated, old. So, in connection with that, it was requested. Now his poetry also, poetry also done. "If you move, my love, thirsty from head to toe, A hundred Husseins are killed in every corner of my desert." So here, it's not "a hundred Husseins" but "in every corner of my desert is a hundred Husseins". So this is a Shia expression which is for expressing love and for expressing greatness. This is not to express contempt and humiliation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the desert, Mirza Sahib, it's one thing. And to say that- "A hundred Husseins are in my collar." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And to say that: "A hundred Husseins are killed in every corner of my sanctuary" is different? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, then let me ask you further. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, my answer is not finished yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please read it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. As far as the allegation of insulting Hazrat Imam Hussain and other members of the Holy Family is concerned, without expressing this painful matter, there is no choice but to acknowledge that this method of continuous injustice with the Ahmadiyya community... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 393 ... it is often done that the excerpts of the founder of Ahmadiyya movement are presented incompletely. Whereas, the way these excerpts are presented, the clear statement of the founder of the movement is present in its refutation. In the allegation under consideration... Mr. Chairman: Are you reading what is written? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are you giving your explanation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And further, I have to read the excerpt. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mr. Chairman: It cannot be. Is it an answer to a question? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whatever I will... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is explaining; and let him reply. He is reading out the explanation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The statement of Ijaz Ahmadi regarding Hazrat Imam Hussain that is presented, there in the article, a comparison of monotheism and polytheism is being done. Regarding Hazrat Imam Hussain, the founder of Ahmadiyya movement states. This is an excerpt: Hussain, may Allah be pleased with him, was pure and purified. And undoubtedly, he is among those chosen ones whom God Almighty cleanses with His own hand and fills with His love. And undoubtedly, he is among the leaders of Paradise. And holding even an atom of malice against him causes the loss of faith... 394 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 POINT OF ORDER RE: READING OUT WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Point of order, Sir. If Mirza Sahib is reading this writing, if it has been published in a book or magazine, then he can read it. But if he just wants to read something in response to a question while sitting, and in writing, that probably is not permitted by the rules. This is my point of order. Mr. Chairman: You can discuss it with the Attorney-General if he raises this point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Normally the rule is that when a witness is giving oral evidence, he cannot read out a proposed statement in reply to any question, but he can cite...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I can read out the quotation. Mr. Chairman: The witness can...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The objection is quite valid. When he said that you are reading...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The objection was raised when I was reading a quotation Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then you can read a quotation...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I was already reading a quotation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib's quotation or Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mahmud's quotation; but if you yourself made a statement which was published somewhere else....... POINT OF ORDER RE: READING OUT WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 395 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I do understand. Mr. Chairman: I may remind the witness that a witness can refresh his memory from his previous writing or from the writing of anyone; but in reply to a question or to explaination, one's own opinion cannot be.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I would request you What I have understood is that when I give a statement on my own behalf, I should not give any written statement. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can refresh. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Number one is this. Secondly, if while giving a statement, I want to mention any of my writings, then I should look at it at that time in front of me and then say it verbally. Can I at least look at it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can do that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Refresh. You can refresh your memory. And thirdly, what about when I give a quotation in my answer? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can quote that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: At the time when this objection was raised, I was reading a quotation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, before that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No objection was raised at that time. That's what I'm saying. I'll read it again. 396 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August 1974 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Insha'Allah Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is an excerpt that I am reading. After reading the excerpt, I will give the reference. "Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him) was pure and purified. And undoubtedly, he is among those chosen ones whom God Almighty singles out with His own hand and fills with His love. And undoubtedly, he is among the leaders of Paradise. And having even a ذره of malice towards him causes the loss of faith. And the piety, love, humility, patience, perseverance, asceticism, and worship of this Imam are a good example for us. And we are the followers of the guidance that he received. Woe to the heart that is his enemy, and successful is the heart that manifests its love in practical terms and takes within itself all the reflections of his faith, morals, courage, piety, perseverance, and divine love with complete imitation, just like the reflection of a beautiful person in a clear mirror. These people are hidden from the eyes of the world. Who knows their worth except those who are among them. The eye of the world cannot recognize them because they are very far from the world. This was the reason for the martyrdom of Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him) because he was not recognized. Which pure and chosen one did the world love in his time that Hussain would also be loved. (In short, it is a matter of the highest degree of wretchedness and faithlessness to disrespect Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him). And whoever disrespects Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him) or any other elder who is among the manifest Imams or utters any word of contempt against him, wastes his faith because Allah Almighty becomes the enemy of the person who is the enemy of His chosen and beloved ones." (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 10, Page 103) 397 CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! This reference of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib that you have given, is it before this verse or after? Do you have any idea of the date? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Probably after. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Probably after. And you will find plenty of these references in your books, even later ones. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the thing is, at one stage he says, "I am a Muhaddis," at one stage he says, "I am a Mujaddid," at one stage he says, "I am a prophet." He is changing his views, according to my impression. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not changing his views. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I think, he may have changed his opinion about Hazrat Imam Hussain. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not changing his views. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I said, will you answer this further question: Did he say that: There is a big difference between me and your Hussain because I always receive divine support and help. (Nuzool-e-Masih, page 96) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Note this down. (To the Attorney General) I will check. 398 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN {7th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now check. I'll read it again: "There is a big difference between me and your Hussain because I am constantly receiving divine support and help." Then he says further, you should check it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And I am killed by God, your Hussain is killed by enemies." The difference is clear and obvious. when you check it and if you find it correct, sir, please keep in mind what I am going to ask. With all that he said about Imam Hussain, which you read out just now, here is this: "There is a big difference between me and your Hussain" as if he feels his Hussain does not belong to him........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no,........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....... Then again I was just saying that 1 want to bring to your notice....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, is there no need for me to answer now? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You haven't even verified it yet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, not verified yet. (To a member of his delegation) Note this down, "why did he say 'your Hussain'?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "I am killed by God. Your Hussain is killed by enemies." In both the places and both the quotations, he refers to Hussain as if Hussain belongs to someone else and not to him....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, ...... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 399 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ....... he refers to the concept of Hussain........ I have not verified it yet. (To a member of his delegation) Note this down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, you verify it. If you admit, then you will explain. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Without me admitting, you start commenting again. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I said that my answer will be on this point, this emphasis, on this you...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I mean this should not be in the record that your commentary comes and from my side it comes that I am silent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This will not happen, because I told you, you have said. you will verify. Everything is being taped. It's not like no one will write it down. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I just want clarification. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Sahib! You said in the morning that those who are outside the circle of Islam, explain some more on that. Because I had one or two more questions to ask on this subject. But I think, if you had explained, no need....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will read what I will say from a book or the rest I will say orally. As I have been instructed. 400 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 The thing is, yesterday a couple of things happened here that made me suspect that the two terms we created, "the sphere of the Muslim community" and "the sphere of Islam," to clarify matters and based on which some questions were asked and answered, had some confusion in them. I felt some confusion which was painful for me, and I remained restless at night. The thing is, in the Holy Quran—as I recited a verse from the Holy Quran yesterday—the "Muslim community" is mentioned, but there is no mention of the "sphere of Islam." Therefore, the essence of the matter, I will express in other words, without figurative language. When we come into the sphere, it becomes figurative language because this sphere is not related to Islam; it is related to the external world. If we abandon figurative language and express the reality of Islam in words, we arrive at the conclusion that among Muslims, that is, those who have accepted Islam, two different groups have emerged from the time of the Holy Prophet ﷺ until today. One is the group of the sincere, who have fully accepted Islam. And the meaning of Islam is how a goat submissively places its neck before the butcher; in the same way, these people voluntarily, of their own will and choice, offer their necks in the presence of God Almighty. So, one group is those who are very sincere, possessors of devotion, professionals of sacrifice, sacrificing everything in the way of God, and acting upon all the commands imposed by God Almighty. This is one group. Along with this, there is another group that is not of that stature and status. We see even in the time of the Holy Prophet ﷺ that there were those who showed weakness. Examples of this are found abundantly in the hadiths. And the Holy Quran has repeatedly emphasized, mentioned, CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 401 Keep reminding, because there is faith in them, there is Islam in them, but despite that, it is necessary to remind and advise. And we learn from the Holy Quran itself that there were also people who were called Muslims, whom the Quran itself The Holy Quran called hypocrites. So there is a group of sincere people. Along with them are people who are relatively less sincere, And sinners. This sin has been named infidelity in the Hadith, for example: Whoever deliberately abandons prayer has openly disbelieved. This is Jami al-Saghir al-Suyuti. (To a member of his delegation) (And where are the other references?) (To the Attorney General) Similarly, this is a reference from a book, Mishkat, chapter on oppression: Whoever walks with an oppressor to strengthen him, while he knows that he is an oppressor, has departed from Islam. It does not mention oppression, it does not mention the oppressor, it mentions that the person who goes with the oppressor, It means that he agrees with him, encourages him through his friendship, he too has left Islam. So such people who, because of sin, cannot be included in the group of pure close ones, The word infidelity has been used for them since the time of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And along with this, it is also It is said that you are a Muslim, at the same time. The Holy Quran says: The Bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' and faith has not yet entered your hearts." 402 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 That the Arab villagers, who did not get the opportunity to get more training, say that we have believed. The Great Quran says: Do not say that we have believed, say that we have become Muslims, because faith has not yet entered your hearts. This is the last limit from where we will call him a Muslim despite his weaknesses, that is, faith has not even entered the heart and he is also a Muslim. And in another place He said: بلا من اسلم وجهه لله و هو محسن فله اجره عنداريه ولا خوف عليهم ولا هم يحزنون. In this is the group of sincere people who are sacrificing everything they have for Allah Almighty. And the leader of this group of Muslims, believers, is the Holy Prophet Muhammad Mustafa ﷺ from whose tongue The Great Quran made him say: انا اول المسلمين That I am the leader of the Muslims, my position is number one, the highest, the most exalted. So one is the group of sincere people. And the second group is not so sincere. And where the limit of this group of sincere people ends, imagine, bring it into your imagination, from there that last limit after which a person is excluded from Islam, there is a big difference in it. And Different kinds of believers with different degrees of faith have been found in the Ummah of Muhammad from the first day till today. And these are the second kind of sinners, who left the prayer, became infidels. There is another place: whoever steals does not steal while being a Muslim. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 403 Regarding this, what I have to say is that the word "infidel" has been in use since the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) until now, and along with this, it is also happening that: Say, "We have submitted." So, this, our Muslim community and the circle of Islam, are actually two groups. And in this difficulty, if this issue comes before us... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It's the same thing, Mr. Mirza, that is in your writings, in your community's writings, that they are outside the circle of Islam and are infidels? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which started from the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have given this explanation that they are Muslims who are not sincere, or not as sincere as that class? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Exactly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are saying this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Please also tell me, are there Muslims of the same type in the Ahmadis as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. I was just about to say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Among the Ahmadis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is also such a group among the Ahmadis. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sincere... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One group is sincere, and the other is the one regarding whom the command comes. 404 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 Infidel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, they are also infidels to that extent? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To that extent, they are also infidels. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there no difference between them and other Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, tell me, if a person, according to you, doesn't even offer prayers, then he also becomes an infidel. I believe that he becomes a sinner, but you say... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I didn't say that. I have quoted from Arabic. I have given the reference for that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If a person does not believe in any prophet, not out of malice, but because he understands that Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad was not a prophet. In which category would you place him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A sinner. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He will not be an infidel? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Meaning, he has absolutely no connection with Islam. He has also denied the Holy Prophet. I mentioned yesterday that if the proof has been conveyed to him, meaning... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The proof has been conveyed. You have explained it to him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then that's it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have given him the complete argument. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now you take it, so what is the question now? CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 405 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say that the explanation you have just given, that a man listens to arguments and sincerely and honestly understands that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was not a prophet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the second category, isn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And he is denying it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he is a sinner. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is he not an infidel? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Disbelief is also a sin. That's what I've been saying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking about an infidel, in which category is he? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Like someone who does not offer prayers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just that? Does he remain a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He remains a Muslim. That is why I have explained it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, tell me, when you say that some people among your followers, the rest of the Muslims, understand this, or the people of Islam, are outside the circle of Islam. I was reading it to you yesterday. So when you call them Muslims, what do you mean? Are they claiming to be Muslims or actually Muslims, sinful Muslims, infidels? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, look, you haven't clarified this again. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Explanation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have said three things, merely claiming to be a Muslim, and you have said two other things. 406 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I asked, in which category will you mark them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What are those categories? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One, those people who do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet... do not accept him after Itmam-e-Hujjat... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The person who does not consider Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet, but he also attributes himself to Hazrat Khatam-ul-Anbiya, no one can call him a non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, they say that the last prophet is according to their interpretation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is the difference of interpretation. I am saying categorically that every person who attributes himself to Muhammad ﷺ is a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And no one else has the right to declare him a non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you consider him a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In that sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, does he not claim to be a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, who is attributed, I have told you many times, how can I claim? Have I seen by tearing open hearts? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will ask you one thing, there is a reference about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad by Mirza Bashir Ahmad, Sahibzada Bashir Ahmad, he says: CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 407 And it seems that Hazrat Masih Maud (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Sahib) also realized at the time that people should not be deceived by seeing the word "Muslim" in my writings regarding non-Ahmadis. That is why, as a remedy, he had written such words about non-Ahmadis in some places, that those people who claim Islam, wherever the word "Muslim" is, it should be understood as claimants of Islam, not real Muslims. So it is a certain thing that wherever Hazrat Mirza Sahib has called non-Ahmadis "Muslims", it only means that they claim Islam. Otherwise, according to the divine command, he did not consider his deniers to be Muslims." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Kalimatul Fasl? "Kalimatul Fasl" written by Sahibzada Bashir Ahmad Sahib (Qadiani) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Kalimatul Fasl. Yes. And "Annual Review of Religions," Volume 1, page 13, then further 126. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will check this. This morning you saw that there was neither a reference nor a newspaper, and it appeared here. We will check it. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You just said it yourself. I am coming back to my old subject. (Pause) Did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib say this: NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 408 And behold, today there is one among you who is greater than that Messiah (He sent the Promised Messiah in this Ummah who is much greater in all glory than that first Messiah) and do not know that Ibn Maryam was a humble man, if God wanted, He could have created another man like Jesus, son of Mary, or even better, as He did. Now God says that behold, I will create a second to him who is even better than him, who Ghulam Ahmad is, that is, the slave of Ahmad. Leave the mention of Ibn Maryam. Ghulam Ahmad is better than him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then we will check this too. What is this reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, I will read further: These things are not poetic but real. And if, according to experience, God's support is not more with me than Ibn Maryam, then I will be a liar." (Dafe-ul-Bala, pages 13 and 20) Two quotations- Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Waqe-ul-Bala? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Dafe-ul-Bala, and he says further: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which page is Dafe-ul-Bala on? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Pages 13 and 20. These were his two quotations. And then he says further: And it is obvious that the time of Fateh Mubeen has passed in the time of our Holy Prophet and the second victory remained which is much greater and more obvious than the first victory. And it was destined that its time would be the time of the Promised Messiah. In this way, there is a sign in this saying of God Almighty: 409 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION "Glory to Him Who took His servant for a Journey by night" (Seerat-ul-Abdaal, page 193) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 193. Yes, we will see, we will check it. Mr. Chairman: If the books are here in the House, they may be shown to the witness just now yes instead of referring. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They were available. But I will read them. Then, after that, if they cannot verify, we will... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Actually, when we look at it, there is an answer before and after it, in the same place, there is clarification. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this what he said: "For him, the sign of the lunar eclipse appeared, and for me, both the moon and the sun. Now will you deny it?" (Ijaz Ahmadi - page 71) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will check this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You do not know this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I do not know the context before and after it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, I am saying if this is the case then... Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Mr. Chairman! Please give the order. We are prepared to produce the books. 410 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Mr. Chairman: The first question would be: whether these writings are admitted? Then the questions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I asked the witness, Sir. That is what I ask. But he will like to know what comes before and after. But he has not denied it. Mr. Chairman: The explanation will come when the statement is admitted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, he says that he will have to read it from the original. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This morning such a reference was presented which did not exist. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then why you are..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It was a reference to such a newspaper that was never published. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He doesn't say it doesn't exist. Mr. Chairman: There might be ......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I mean then give us time, we will correct it. Mr. Chairman: There might be some bonafide mistake of fact. But when the book is available, the book may be handed over and the other members of the delegation can verify those. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Didn't you take page numbers 13 and 20? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Page 13 and 20? That was noted down. Mr. Chairman: Do this, that the members of the delegation Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The references are available. 411 CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: Please do this, give them the books. Aziz Bhatti Sahib. You give them the books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I give the quotation, then I forget the subject. I wanted it to be clarified. Mr. Chairman: By the time you read the quotation, the book may be handed over to members of the delegation; and by the time you finish, they can reply. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This too, and Seerat-ul-Abdaal, page 193. Mr. Chairman: Bhatti Sahib! I have said that you have given the references. Come over here. The books are lying here. They will sit here and read. And we will save time. The Attorney General will read the references. You take the book from the librarian and immediately hand it over to them, instead of creating a rush. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: One reference was left this morning, I will read it. You said yesterday that give a note about the "Baruzi Nabi Zilli Nabi". Should I give it to you? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Give it. (Pause) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General, please continue. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If these are very long statements, then please file them. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I will file them, okay. These terms of "Baruzi" etc. which the Salf Saliheen have stated and then we have taken and used them, they are under two headings. 412 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you say so. You are filing them on the record because it is very lengthy. Then we will see if there is some question. We will ask. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, ask whatever question you want regarding it. We don't have its copy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Until we find the rest of the references. Mr. Chairman: May be handed over to the Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me finish the other questions I was asking earlier about Imam Hussain. Mr. Chairman: No - for the cross-examination, the Attorney General may cross-examine on the basis. Mirza Nasir Ahmada: Yes Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I asked you earlier: "There is a big difference between me and your Hussain because I am constantly receiving divine support and help." Mirza Nasir Ahmada: Yes, that's right, we will give it in the evening. If you allow us, we will file it in the evening and keep a copy with us? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's fine. Do you have a copy of that magazine you have? So, the Chairman wants to keep this on record as well. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 413 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This magazine, our elder friend is sitting here right now, it is with him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is yours. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am just talking in general. Please return it to us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, they are returning it to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And a friend from Saudi Arabia sent it to me. We only have one copy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But I am trying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you have relied on it, so, if it is not on the record...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I rely on that most...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: you relied on a document. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I have another request from you, that the Pakistani Ambassador in Nigeria, ask him to inquire from the scholars there what is written here. The matter will become clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is fine sir. I am talking about the magazine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The magazine is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We will need it on record. If you want to keep it with you, then by all means take it. But you have relied on it. You say that there is no objection here regarding the Kalima on the mosque. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I had shown that to you. I regret that there aren't any samples of the script and the script of... aren't those available to you? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am looking at my own. And we will also check the numbers. I do not know what their impression is. But, to me, it seems 'Ahmad' and nor 'Mohammad' and you said that it is correct that the Meem Alif is visible. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That Alif is joined with Koach, and there is emphasis on the second Meem. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This impression, I said is the impression. That's the impression. And because of this, in my opinion, it has been published in the magazine. There was no reason. They do not have the plea for itself. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it were because of this, there would have been an objection to it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It speaks for itself, no sir. That is without comments? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To the world, as a whole, it speaks and tells a different story. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I say that it speaks for itself; therefore, it is without comments. So, that will be for the members to see. But ....... They speak for themselves. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those pictures of our mosques, the other ones, those... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, good. I asked you this: There is a big difference between me and your Hussain because I have always had divine support and encouragement. And then I said, haven't you seen this reference either? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These references have been written down, we will prepare them and bring them now. Mr. Seni Bakhtiar and I am killed by God, but your Hussain is killed by enemies. So the difference is clearly obvious. So on this Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, this has been written down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, you have not yet... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Did not see it at that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You did not see it at that time? Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Point of information Sic. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then this is very difficult, sir. You say that you....... Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: After a question has been put before them, they should deny or refuse; and the explanation can be given later on whether the fact is denied or accepted. Mr. Chairman: That I have already remarked. (To Mr. Attorney- General) Yes, Continue. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I have said that the witness should see, you know, if it is there or not. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now listen to what the answer is. Number (2) Do you expect me to explain it or not? August 30, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, first admit whether it is there or not. You have a- right to explain. Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney-General, just a minute. The witness is aided by few members of the delegation. Their object is to assist the witness because it is a matter which needs quite al length certain discoveries or certain documents. That is why their are two aspects. When Attorney-General put the question, the witness has either to search it out and say 'yes' or 'No', or to give explanation. Where the question of some document is concerned, the books shall be handed over to members of the delegation. They can verify and, the can say, they can tell the witness that it exists or it does not exist. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I was saying, Sir. I told the witness that you first verify it whether this statement exists in the book or not and, after that, if he wants time to explain, by all means he...... Mr. Chairman: That is far the witness to reply there and then or, if he likes, he can give explanation afterwards. That is up to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I say. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is it? Mr. Chairman: If he likes, he can explain; if he does not like, he may not explain. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To the witness) That is up to you. But, first, we will not proceed further if you say it does not exist-this statement. Then. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I understand that. And after that, I should get that much time, appropriate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you think you need time to answer it... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Naturally you can ask for time. 417 Mr. Chairman: I may also remind honourable members of the House that there are two types of references being asked. One, for one reference, there are available the reference books..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I said. Mr. Chairman: For the witnesses themselves....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, there are two ways of looking at it. There are questions that could be answered straightaway; there is no reason to ask for time..... Mr. Chairman: No reason. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... as I have said. But if a question requires an answer which requires some research and further work or further authority, then naturally some time would be given. Mr. Chairman: The witness shall be given opportunity; and for those books and for those references for which books are not available or in the possession of the witness, then the witness can say, "I will check it up." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, all these books are in the possession of the witness. They are presumed to be because these are the writings of....... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our possession but not at this place. Mr. Chairman: So, we will make a distinction of those books which are available in the house...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That has been given. And now, Mirza Sahib, please....... 418 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, they have taken it back. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Bring it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, bring it. Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Mr. Chairman! Whatever references they want to ask for, we one by one... Mr. Chairman: Why don't you do this, Sir! One or two of you should sit here. As soon as the Attorney-General refers to a reference, ........ (Interruptions) Mr. Chairman: Bhatti Sahib, listen to me, no interruptions, listen to me. Bhatti Sahib! Listen to me, two of you should sit here. As soon as the Attorney General refers to a reference the book should be ready, it should be handed over to the witness........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Rectification of a mistake, page 11 Mr. Chairman: ...So that we can do this at this time. (Pause) Mr. Chairman: So, we can proceed now. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This reference in Kashf about seeing Hazrat Fatima, the place from where it is taken, this is a reference to his Kashf which is printed in another book, Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, in. After keeping Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya in front, it will be known what was said. Number (one). Mr. Chairman: Give that also. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is also there. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Give Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya also. Then for this, whatever references we need are that this is Kashf, and one is that what is the fatwa of the Muslim Ummah regarding Kashf. And secondly, what is the opinion of the Ummah Muhammadiyah (peace be upon him) regarding such Kashfs? CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 419 Whether the righteous predecessors of these have been seeing this before today or not. When these two things come to light, then the issue will come to the forefront. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You want more time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can give it tomorrow morning, or this evening, as you deem fit. Mr. Chairman: But the writing is admitted? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The writing is admitted? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The writing is admitted that it is... ...that this is a summary of the statement that has been described in detail in another book. This is correct. We acknowledge this. Mr. Chairman: Next writing. Sardar Maula Bukhsh Soomro: This is not admission or denial of the fact. Whether they should in to to accept....... Mr. Chairman: No, Haji Sahib, it has been accepted. And the witness says that he will explain it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says that he will see the books which have been brought in the summary of that ....... Mr. Chairman: Next writing. Because, for the present, we will confine only to these four or five references. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which one? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Nuzool-e-Masih, page 96." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which one? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Nuzool-e-Masih, page 96 and Nuzool-e-Masih, page 81. Both." 420 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Confirmation Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Is 'Nuzul-e-Masih' on page 96? I can't find it here." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "There's a big difference between me and your Hussain because I have divine..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "This is an addendum to 'Nuzul-e-Masih'." Mr. Chairman: "Bhatti Sahib! Did you provide this book? It's not on page 96. You pinpoint it, underline that page. They say it's not on page 96." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "The one about 'Nuzul-e-Masih'. Bring this book back too; it's ours." Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: "This tradition exists in its rebuttal. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself has written that I have also written this in 'Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya'. This book is also his." Mr. Chairman: "No, no, one second, please sit down. When you asked for your reference, you will rely on that reference." Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: "The reference is from his own book. That book is present." Mr. Chairman: "Did you give that book to them? They couldn't find it there." Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: "I have given it. It is written in it." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Maulana, look. The witness has said he has to refer to one or two other books also and then give an explanation; and that has come on record. I am going further now." Mr. Chairman: "Yes." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Have you found it, sir? 'Nuzul-e-Masih' page 96?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "No, they are looking." Mr. Chairman: "They are looking, sir. Ask the next question." CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 421 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Ijaz Ahmadiyya, page 80." Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Mr. Chairman: Exactly. Underline the word that the Attorney General is reading and place it in front of him in this book. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "Your Hussain," this reference is not found. This came up earlier. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is this? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: They have brought the reference "Sad Hussain Ast Dar Girebanam." And we need "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya" in this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, page 96. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: There is a reference to "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya" here, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti) Show it to me first. Mr. Chairman: Give it to Chaudhry Zahoor Elahi Sahib. And "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya" is the reference for that. The reference in the book should be exactly the same what is in the question. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: In my opinion, there is a slight misunderstanding. Consider that the books they have placed here are the ones printed in Rabwah, and those are the ones marked. The gentlemen who have asked questions have given references from those books, which are their own personal books. Mr. Chairman: You can check. The books have been available for the last ten days. 422 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August, 1974 Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: But the books are available, references are attached to everything, everything is available. That... Mr. Chairman: You could check it up from Chapters, Chapter-wise. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Only the printing press is different. Mr. Chairman: So, Mr. Attorney-General,... Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: This, this is the book. Mr. Chairman: Just a second. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, it is, I have seen it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This is it, this is it, that this Arabic verse, is present: “Wa ma Hussain faazkuru Dashte Karbala Washitna ma baini wa baina Hussain kam Fani Aulidu kulla aan wa unsuru” So that is its reference, the other books will explain the senses. They will tell you. You take care of this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This, this that is, this writing... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Its first writing... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... Writing is admitted? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, writing is admitted. And the explanation will be given later. Mr. Chairman: So, for the time being, I think... PRODUCTION OF REFERENCES/QUOTATIONS BEFORE THE DELEGATION 423 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is (To Mr. Chairman) Let me ask about the next sentences. Mr. Chairman: For the time being, no. The delegation is permitted to leave and to report at 6.00. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The edition Mirza Sahib has here...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have been granted permission. Mr. Chairman: To report at 6.00 p.m. The honorable members will keep sitting. (The delegation left the chamber) Mr. Chairman: Chaudhry Sahib, I am going to suggest .... (Interruption) Just a minute; have patience for one minute. Please be seated. Everyone please sit. One second. Everyone, please relax. Yes, take this. I would request those honorable members...... (Interruption) Please leave. Mr. Chairman: Please be seated for a minute. One second. Please sit down for a second. PRODUCTION OF REFERENCES/QUOTATIONS BEFORE THE DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: I would not take more than two minutes everything would be clear. 424 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 I would request at least those honorable members, those who associated themselves with the Questions committee, or members of the Steering Committee. If the references that the honorable members are giving are different, and their books printed in Rabwah are different, then at the very least it would be chapter-wise, so within that, if as... Questions Committees have received questions, Steering Committee members can also ask questions. And the Attorney General, the questions or references that you are asking. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The edition that is large there is different, here it is pure and different. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The reference I have given now is in that one, it is not in this one. Mr. Chairman: It will take about 10-15 minutes to search it out. But it can be search it out. But it can be searched out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But these Questions Committee members have them. Mr. Chairman: So, I will...... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Chaudhry Sahib! One second. My request in this is that now, after adjournment these (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: One minute sir, Dhandla Sahib! I will request those members. If you have to ask about references, then PRODUCTION OF REFERENCES/QUOTATIONS BEFORE THE DELEGATION 425 We should not cut a sorry figure before the members of the delegation. And these members should be here up to 6.00. If you have to show your work, it shouldn't take half an hour just to find a reference. The change of edition, or print at Rabwah or Qadian is no excuse; or you say that the reference does not exist, is given incorrectly, or the book itself does not exist. Mr. Mohammad Haneef Khan: One point, Not all the members of the Steering Committee but only honourable members...... Mr. Chairman: Those who are conversant; they may not be members of Steering Committee, because this is the responsibility of everybody, especially. (Interruption) Those who have given notice. Mr. Chairman: Maulana, listen for a second. Those who have given notice of their questions or those who are conversant with this, and after that, when the Attorney General puts the question. Now the questions are with them and you know the questions. Whoever has given these references, they should have their references ready here. Mr. Attorney-General, the first question would be: "whether Upto-date," you admit or do not admit. Explanation will follow. Just as a lawyer prepares a case so that facts and documents are ready. 426 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 7th, 1974 With these remarks....... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Your desire will be fulfilled, that we are not biased. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: Sir, I have a submission. Mr. Chairman: Holiday? Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: No, no, I am not talking about a holiday. My submission is that when the Attorney General asks him questions and there are references in it from the book, then it is appropriate that he should hand over that book to them with the question. Mr. Chairman: That is what I am saying, that is what I said. LEAKAGE OF QUESTIONS TO BE PUT TO THE DELEGATION Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: I don't have another submission. Sir, my second submission is that we were surprised to see one thing today. That is, the questions that the Attorney General asks them, are already written and available with them. So my guess is that the questions have been leaked out. From where? You can guess. But this is not fair. If they are leaked and they are informed beforehand for which they write and bring the answers, then I think, I have to say with great regret, that among the members of the House or somewhere this is happening, who is doing it? You know better. A member must be involved. Another member: Absolutely right. LEAKAGE OF QUESTIONS TO BE PUT TO THE DELEGATION 427 Mr. Chairman: The rest should not be reported. The Reporters would leave the Hall. You also leave. Close it also. The Special Committee adjourned for lunch break to re-assembled. The Special Committee re-assembled after the lunch break. Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. Mr. Chairman: Still the quorum is not complete. There are eight of them. I have counted them. Even yours are not complete. Come on, it should be complete in the record, nine then. Noor. Maulana Zafar Ahmad: Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sahib. Two is fine, it is ten now. Please come quickly. Doctor Sahib, please complete your thirty. Complete your thirty. Yes, call them. Yes. What did you want to say? I thought maybe you want to give a speech. The opportunity for a speech comes after the session. Do not make Maulana Ataullah Sahib in-charge of the library. You become the in-charge of the library. (Pause) After every sitting...... It will save a lot of trouble. (The Delegation entered the chamber) Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. 428 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, are you ready with some of the replies? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this "Tazkiratul Aulia" available here? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Tazkiratul Aulia"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "And Irshad Rahmani?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Irshad Rahmani?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Tazkiratul Aulia and Irshad Rahmani? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To the librarian) Please bring these from the library. What about the rest of the references? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There was also this question, that the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement stated: "How great is the distance between me and your Hussain, For I am the unique one and the individual." There is a big difference between me and your Hussain. The pronoun "kum" in "Hussainkum" clarifies its meaning. And in this poem, there is a mention of those people, very clearly, who were associating partners with Allah in relation to Hazrat Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him), and used to pray to him and prostrate at his grave. So, this is not about Hazrat Hussain, but it is about the perception that you present of Hazrat Hussain which is not correct. Regarding Hazrat Hussain, I had read a quote from the founder of the movement. It is very powerful, it shows how much love and affection... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you had this reference that: "There is a big difference between me and your Hussain." I had stated, "Your Hussain." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 429 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Your pronoun 'you' will tell you what it means. Who are the people being addressed by 'you'? He does it in different verses of the same poem. And I will tell you, it is in the same poem. That is, we have to see what the reference of the pronoun 'you' is: (Arabic verses) You assume that Hussain is the leader of all creation and that every prophet will be saved and forgiven by his intercession.) So, these are the people who are being addressed in this poem. In this poem, those people are not addressed who love and cherish Hazrat Hussain and consider his life as an example, and whose religion is to attain the love of Allah Almighty through following him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He further says, because I want this clarification, that: There is a big difference between me and your Hussain because I have divine Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Because I have?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Because I have divine support and help at all times." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will explain "because I have," keeping the whole poem in mind. Because, like Imam Hussain, I have the support of Allah Almighty at all times. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Like? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, like the real Hussain. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because that Hussain... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That Hussain whom they associate with partners. Mr. Attorney-General: We are lawyers; we interpret words in their literal, plain, simple meaning, and...... 430 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then please read out the whole, all these verses. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If those meanings are not clear, then, if something the author himself or the law itself says--Now here it is so clearly written: "There is a big difference between me and your Hussain because I receive divine support and help all the time." It means that Hussain is not receiving divine support and assistance, that's why there is a big difference between me and him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, won't the law, won't the mind of a lawyer turn to the question of to whom is the pronoun referring in 'Hussainkum'? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are you defining this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. 'Hussainkum' - he is the one being addressed, right? So we have to see who is being addressed when it is said 'your Hussain'. And it is in this poem that those people who associate partners with Hussain and consider him superior to all the prophets and consider him the leader of all creation, only those people are being addressed, no one else. And it is a reformative critique on their concept. After all, the reference of 'kum' should be known, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Again and again, wherever it has come, I have seen, I have given you three references. In all three it's "your Hussain." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Ja'altum Husainan Afzal ar-Rusul kullihim" 'Kum' refers to those people who consider Hazrat Hussain superior to all the prophets. 'Ja'alnahum', but these pronouns, are ours, who is being addressed. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 431 (Arabic) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have checked this translation. This has been taken from your books. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is written there, and the translation that I read is also from the same book. "You have declared Hussain superior to all the prophets and have crossed the limits of truth." These are only two people being addressed. Now I will translate so that it is present in your mind... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I only want to ask this, Mirza Sahib! Is it correct? They said this about Hussain; how do you explain that they bring their own mention in between, the comparison they make? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are not comparing themselves to Hazrat Hussain, may Allah be pleased with him, but they are comparing themselves to the concept of Hazrat Hussain, may Allah the Almighty be pleased with him, which is wrongly found in the minds of some people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even then how is it relevant? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When a reformer addresses his nation, in whose beliefs he sees error, and he says to them that this belief of yours, not all of the Shia people or other people, this belief that Hussain is the leader of all creation, is superior to all the prophets, by prostrating at his grave a person can fulfill his needs, this concept of yours… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, you are saying it correctly… 432 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have not finished speaking yet. ... Your perception is wrong because look! That Hussain who made the ultimate sacrifice in the way of God, still has the help and support of Allah Almighty, and I also have the help of Allah Almighty. I am also getting help and support from Allah Almighty. Moving away from this correct perception, it has been created as if he has divine powers. And the leader of all creatures, the leader of both worlds, is the خاتم الانبیاء. So, addressing those who hold this belief, it has been said that compared to your perception of Hussain, I have my own perception, which is my reality. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, is he making a personal observation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Personal, personal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no, is he making a comparison of himself? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is making of himself, indirectly, like Hazrat Hussain, as it has appeared elsewhere. A writer will write that he is beloved of God, of piety, the leader of the pious, their deeds are a good example for us. It is not that leaving everything and taking a little bit of one word and then doing this on top of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not after that, sir, I just wanted to ask you this because further on he said, further on he says: And I am slain by God, your Hussain is slain by enemies. The difference is clear and obvious. Comparison again, look at me, look at them. And the impression given is.......... 433 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Please read that again. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "I am slain by God, and your Hussain is slain by enemies. So the difference is clear and evident." I had also told you this correctly. (Nuzool-e-Masih, page 81) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That polytheist, meaning those polytheists who commit shirk at the grave of Hazrat Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him), and are giving you divine powers, and are declaring (him) superior to the chief of creation and all the prophets, this was said for that concept. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he compares himself to him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Compares himself, that is correct. But he has not compared himself to Hazrat Hussain, but rather has compared himself to a wrong concept of Hazrat Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just now, I am going to quote another instance of the same type you are referring to where he is saying: "O Shia community! Do not insist on this mystery that Hussain is exclusively yours. I truly say that today there is one among you (Mirza Sahib) who is superior to that Hussain." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it in the same? Is this in this poem or is it a reference from somewhere else? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Again "your Hussain", "Hussain is yours." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, as far as "your Hussain" is concerned, it is absolutely clear within that poem. If there is anyone here who knows Arabic, if they read the entire poem now, then the matter will become clear. 434 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August 1974) And as for the remaining position, your claim is that I am the perfect reflection of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, whether anyone accepts it or not, the perfect reflection of the Holy Prophet ﷺ is, in any case, better than everyone. This is our belief. There is no ambiguity in this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then why don't they directly mention the Prophet ﷺ himself? Why do they mention reflection? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes sir? I didn't understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If they say that the Prophet is present before you, his likeness is before you, he is the best of all, his guidance is this, his lesson is this, the difference between him and Hussain is this, then Muslims can understand that it is not like you are competing with me and them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Muslims are not the audience in this. Mr. Mirza Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The segment of Muslims from whom you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only that small group that held these beliefs... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whatever group it is, whatever you call it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: At the time this poem was written, there was a group in the world that was committing idolatry and declaring him the leader of all creation, and it was addressed to them. And those who do not have those beliefs are not addressed by it. And regarding your concept of Hazrat Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him), I narrated an incident before, I will narrate another one: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 435 Once, during the month of Muharram, the Promised Messiah was lying on a cot in his garden. He called Mubarakah Begum Musamma and Mubarak Ahmad (late), who were the youngest among all the siblings, to his side and said, "Come, let me tell you the story of Muharram." Then, in a very sorrowful manner, he narrated the events of the martyrdom of Hazrat Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him). As he narrated these events, tears were flowing from his eyes. A member: Where is he reading this from? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is Tarikh-e-Ahmadiyyat, Volume 3, page 581. And since this question has been repeated, I have to repeat that reference as well, otherwise the matter will not be clear. This is, this is your belief regarding Hazrat Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him), that: Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him) was pure and manifest, and undoubtedly he is among those chosen ones whom God Almighty cleanses with His own hand and fills with His love. And undoubtedly he is among the leaders of Paradise, and harboring even a particle of malice towards him leads to the loss of faith. And this Imam's piety, love of God, patience, steadfastness, asceticism, and worship are a perfect example for us. And we are those who take guidance from the innocence that he received. Ruined is the heart that is his enemy, and successful is the heart that manifests its love for him in a complete manner, and takes within itself all the reflections of his faith, morals, courage, piety, steadfastness, and divine love, with perfect imitation, like a clear mirror reflecting the image of a beautiful person. These people are hidden from the eyes of the world. Who knows their worth? Except those who are among them. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 7th, 1974 436 Their eyes cannot recognize them because they are far from the world. This was the reason for the martyrdom of Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him) because he was not recognized. The world never loved any pure and chosen one in his time, so how could they have loved Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him)? In short, it is an act of extreme wickedness and dishonesty to disrespect Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him). And whoever disrespects Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him), or any other elder who is among the holy Imams, or utters any word of contempt towards them, destroys his faith because Allah Almighty becomes the enemy of the one who is the enemy of His chosen and beloved ones. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay... (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 10, Page 103) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A person's writings are found in his different books. Unless all of them are kept in front of you, one cannot understand its meaning by taking just one part, according to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I wanted to ask you one question, after praising Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him) so much, doesn't Mirza Sahib say that: "I am superior to all of them"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has praised them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he says that: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He says that: "I am superior to them". CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 437 "I am also the perfect reflection of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it a fact or not that he says that "I am superior to Imam Hussain," in spite of all the praises that he showered on him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where does he say "superior?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You just said: "Because I am a reflection, I am better than all the prophets." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, you did not attribute the statement to me, you attributed the statement to the founder of the series. I asked about that, where did he say that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying that he does not say: "I am superior to him" after praising him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: After praising him, after establishing that you are also a role model for us, you say this: "I am that Mahdi about whom the Holy Prophet (PBUH) gave the good news, and about whom he said to salute him, about whom he said to obey him, and about whom he said that through him Islam will prevail all over the world." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Correct... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And to whom you gave the name of Prophet. That is in Sahih Muslim... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the meaning is the same, isn't it, that he is superior to them? 438 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 7th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad is not saying this on his own, regarding Mirza Nasir Ahmad and Shia books. In Shia books, the status of that Mahdi, which the founder of the order is claiming, it is a separate thing that, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mr. Mirza is going into a lot of detail, so there are a lot more questions. I am asking a simple answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am giving the reference of Shia gentlemen, what they understand is the same, when you called yourself Mahdi, the same was understood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, they don't consider Mirza Sahib as Mahdi. What I want to ask is that you say, Mr. Mirza, whether because of being Mahdi, or because of having a page present, in any case, for any reason, do you consider yourself superior to Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am saying this and I want to read the reference now, that Shia gentlemen consider Mahdi (peace be upon him) superior to them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They may think so, sir, what I am asking is that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If I give my argument. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, first you admit that “yes, this is the position.” And then the reason for this is that I am saying it for this reason. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will tell you what the position is after reading this: (Arabic phrase) (Imam Mahdi will say that O group of people, whoever wants to see Abraham and Ishmael, should look at me, for I am Abraham and Ishmael. And whoever wants to see Moses and Joshua, then I am Moses and Joshua. And whoever wants to see Jesus and Simon, I am the same Jesus and Simon. And whoever wants to see Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa and Ameer-ul-Momineen, blessings CROSS-EXAMINATION THE COURT PROCEEDINGS (If Allah sees him, it is Muhammad, and I am the Commander of the Believers) - this is from "Bihar al-Anwar," a book of the Shia community. According to them, this is the status of Imam Mahdi. And the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement claims this status. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Isn't it like you just said, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib is a perfect reflection of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and therefore he is superior to all prophets, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is superior to all prophets and all saints, to Hazrat Imam Hussain, superior to everyone. Is this your claim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this my claim clearly stated? This is not my claim, this is my belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib's claim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is my belief that the Mahdi (peace be upon him) who was prophesied, the founder of the movement claimed to be the Mahdi. And this Mahdi, according to all those who recognized the status of the Mahdi in the Muslim community, is closest to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) in the Muslim community, one who sits at his feet, and therefore is superior to all. This is correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib is superior because he is the Promised Messiah. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are drawing conclusions and denying the reasons, or trying to insinuate something. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I want to ask if it is his claim and your belief that he is better and superior to all prophets and saints. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not all prophets. Our belief is that thanks to the Seal of the Prophets, as a result of becoming his most humble servant, he found a place at his feet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, you said that even while sitting at the feet of the Holy Prophet, he is superior to all prophets because he is a perfect manifestation of him. Mirza. 440 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 In the presence of Sahib, there is a poet of yours, Akmal Sahib, he recited a poem, if this is correct: "Muhammad has descended among us again And is ahead in his glory Muhammad should see the one who is Akmal See Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Its refutation has already been published. And it has been said that if someone has taken this meaning, then it is blasphemy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I want to say that was it said in his presence and he accepted it by saying Jazakallah? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where is it written that it was read in his presence? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What I have is Naqi. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what you have is a question. What is its reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Akmal should see Ghulam Ahmad" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In 1929. This incident is from 1929 and 1908. (Interruption) Yes? Alright, alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, this is the newspaper Al-Badr from 1906... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, in 1934, a very clear refutation regarding this also came in writing. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 441 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a reference to Al-Badr of October 25, 1906. It says that: "After listening to the ode, Mirza Sahib greatly liked the following verses in his praise and accepted it by saying Jazak Allah." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is its reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is the newspaper Al-Badr Qadian, October 25, 1906. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anyway, its rebuttal has come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, I wanted to ask you about this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The rebuttal to this is: If its meaning is that he is superior in rank, then it is certainly infidelity. But if the meaning is that the propagation of religion has increased in this era, then it is in accordance with the Holy Quran. However, such words are still undesirable and disrespectful. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This rebuttal cannot be Mirza Sahib's, it must be Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood's? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This that it was read in your presence, that is not there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it denied that it was read in their presence, or that they did not approve of it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is a very harsh note on it. And someone had told me that, in any case, Qazi Akmal is not an authority for us. 442 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I do not consider Qazi Akmal as an authority. But I say that if he recites this poem in the presence of Mirza Sahib and he, liking the ode, says "Jazak Allah," then after that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely wrong, and it is not like that at all. Without seeing the Lahore, I say that it is wrong. This is not at all our saying, all our training, all our deeds, and all our efforts, it is denying and refuting it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have another saying of Mirza Sahib about Hazrat Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him). Then there is another reference of his, Ejaz Ahmed, this is page 82. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Page 82? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have forgotten the glory of God and Muhammad ﷺ, and all you have is Hussain. Do you deny? So this is a calamity upon Islam. A heap of dirt with the fragrance of musk. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Shirk. This is about Shirk, isn't it? Shirk, its example is given, musk and its comparison. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Musk by itself means? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the Oneness of God, here the Oneness of God and Shirk, this is an example of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You said in the morning that the Muslim who, after the completion of the argument, does not pledge allegiance to Ghulam Ahmad Sahib or does not even believe in him... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Does not believe in his claim. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 442 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you said that he is a "kafir" in a limited sense. If he... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I submitted that any person who stands and claims that he believes in the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, we cannot call him a "kafir" in the broader, national sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In a limited sense, you said that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Just as it is mentioned in the Hadith that whoever abandons prayer becomes a "kafir," whoever walks a few steps with an oppressor becomes a "kafir." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have some confusion about categories: a person who does not believe in a prophet, does not believe in any prophet sent by Allah. As I asked you the other day, if someone does not believe in Jesus, does not believe in Moses, who are mentioned in the Holy Quran as prophets, do you still consider them Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A person who declares that he does not accept the commands of the Seal of the Prophets as rebellion, I do not consider them Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They become absolute "kafirs," then? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely "kafirs"... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Suppose they say without... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if the message has not been fully conveyed, they are ignorant, for example, our common people who do not even know the Holy Quran, cannot even recite it properly. If such a thought comes to someone's mind, that does not make them a "kafir." 444 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Would a person who does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad after "Itmam-e-Hujjat" also be in this category? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He will also be in this category, because the word "Itmam-e-Hujjat," in this context, will mean that it is the command of God and Muhammad (PBUH) to believe in the Mahdi, and this is the same Mahdi who is a claimant, and despite that, I do not believe. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: How did you conclude that he understood and was convinced? You still say that it is evening at that time, and you give reasons for it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am talking about two categories. If he does not believe after "Itmam-e-Hujjat." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he does not believe after explanation, then? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The meaning of "Itmam-e-Hujjat" is this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I am saying, that he becomes certain or understands that it is the command of Allah Almighty... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then he is a Kafir of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is a need for clarification here. A man says, "I believe in Ghulam Ahmad Sahib as a prophet, I have become certain." And then after that, he says that I do not believe, then you can understand that he became a rebel despite believing. One says that I do not believe, then you can understand that he became a rebel despite believing. One says that you have explained to me, but my heart does not accept. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 440 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "My heart doesn't believe it?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not convinced, so then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If there is truly no complete communication of the truth, then it falls into that category. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The communication of the truth is complete, as far as your explanation is concerned. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The communication of the truth is not just my argument, but its acceptance of my argument is what completes the communication of the truth. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's not the dictionary meaning. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "And their souls were convinced thereof" - the Holy Quran says. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After completing all the arguments... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "And they denied them wrongfully and arrogantly, while their souls were convinced thereof." (He denied it, and his heart is full of faith) It is in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Isn't this a complete communication of the truth? I want clarification for this reason. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my view, this is the complete communication of the truth. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The dictionary meaning is that after explaining all the arguments, all the reasoning, if someone still doesn't believe, isn't convinced... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it's not a matter of "while their souls were convinced thereof," then a shadow will be given to him, he will benefit, and the general ruling will not apply to him. 446 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was the argument completed with Abu Jahl? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I wasn't there at that time, I cannot say. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was alive, were you not born then? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. But I swear to God, I have very honestly studied your claims myself, and based on what I understood and found, I have... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Look, your intention is not the question, nor am I doubting it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Your question is about my intention. You asked about Abu Jahl. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying that you are doubting the intentions of others. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am not. Look, you asked the question about Abu Jahl. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The question arises. You sincerely believe, I do not doubt that. But you say that because I do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a prophet, therefore, despite the completion of the argument, it means that I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When did I say this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, from me... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I did not say this at all. You did not understand my meaning. I just said the opposite. I said that if in the knowledge of Allah Almighty, it is not the job of man to look at the heart. If in the knowledge of Allah Almighty, there is a person who is convinced that the claimant is truthful, and yet he does not believe, then in the eyes of God, he is not a Muslim... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELICATION 441 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: At this time, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But my point is not finished yet. Let me finish my point. But if there is someone who, after hearing everything, says that he did not understand, then he will get the benefit of the doubt and we will not call him an infidel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying that I understand Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib's arguments, what does he mean? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, even a philosopher can understand that. We are talking about religious matters. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am also talking about the same thing. He says, "What does "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" mean, that a window is open and prophets can still come?" This is the first step. Secondly, he comes to the conclusion. "I am that Nabi and gives reasons for that .........." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I object to your statement. My objection is that you are not taking care of my and our feelings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am sorry, I do not want to hurt your feelings. But I am saying that he reaches this conclusion. First, he says that the window is open, prophets can come. After that, he says that he is that prophet. If a person says this to you.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is, in fact, the result of unfamiliarity. It did not happen this way. Rather, you have described your status as Mahdi and Messiah. And the Holy Prophet has mentioned the coming Messiah in Sahih Muslim. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August, 1974 You called out four times saying no. Elsewhere, due to Mehndi and Beej, you said that I, according to what Muhammad (PBUH) said, was called a Prophet by Allah Almighty, therefore I am a Prophet, not a follower. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question has not been answered clearly. Mirza Sahib, I said that a person who heard Mirza Sahib's message but was not convinced, in which category do you place him? Is he a disbeliever? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In what sense? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That he does not believe in a prophet, but he is a follower of Muhammad (PBUH) and says that he has complete faith. You are saying that he is not outside the Muslim community. But that he is a disbeliever, in a limited sense, outside the circle of Islam, which you said yesterday. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I have clarified it today, in which I have given references to the Hadiths. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those who have never even heard the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and do not believe because they have never heard the name, in which category are they disbelievers? Or are they not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A person has never heard the name of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), he does not believe, in which category will he come? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does not believe, has not heard the name. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Has not even heard the name of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), has not even heard the name of Moses (peace be upon him), in which category will he come? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 449 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whichever two come in the category, they will come in that category. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The one with complete devotion and his category are the same? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, when did I say they are the same? We do a type based on appearance. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because a little of Bashiruddin Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A question was raised in court. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I had asked. Then asked here as well. Read it yesterday. Even if they haven't heard the name, they are infidels? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One is apparent, that too is limited disbelief. So, they are infidels in a limited sense. We won't call him that. The person who... (Meaning of Allah) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Hasn't even heard the name. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A girl who was born in Moscow seven years ago, she hasn't even heard the name, she hasn't heard the name of Moses (peace be upon him), she hasn't heard the name of any saint of the children of Israel, because she hasn't heard the name of Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him) or Hazrat Daud (peace be upon him) or Hazrat Noah (peace be upon him), she has no faith in him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's what I'm saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, on them... Do the rest of the Muslim sects issue fatwas? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Infidel. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They issue a fatwa of infidel on them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whoever does not believe is an infidel until he believes. 450 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th August 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Until they believe, the fatwa of denial is intentionally placed upon them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not saying 'Intentionally.' Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the meaning of 'kufr' (disbelief) is 'intention.' Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That they became infidels because they are not Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not being a Muslim is a different thing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, I am saying that it is a conscious process. I am a Muslim, I recite the Kalima, and I declare that I am from the Ummah of Muhammad ﷺ, I believe in him. When my child is born, there is a presumption for him, your Mr. Bashir-ud-Din Sahib is saying that whatever the religion of the father is, that is what will be understood for him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Prophet ﷺ said this, not Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I gave a reference to him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, he translated it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why don't you offer his funeral prayer? Because it was from the father's religion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The answers that you have just said, those phrases are attributed to the Holy Prophet ﷺ, in the Hadiths. I am just telling you this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am asking you this, those categories who have not even heard the name. Are they also infidels? The one on whom the proof has been completed, is he also an infidel? In which category do both fall? You say that both of these come in the category that is not outside the Millat (community). CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 451 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The two do not fall into the same category. One is accountable to Allah Almighty, the other is not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As far as disbelief is concerned, both are disbelievers? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sometimes you take disbelief alone, and sometimes you take disbelief and Islam together. If you proceed in this way, that he did not believe despite not knowing, then how can you call someone who did not believe a believer? You can say about someone who did not practically believe that he has believed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That becomes a definition of a sinner. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am not talking about sin. Let this point be clear first. How can you call someone who does not believe a believer? You cannot. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Further on, the difference comes in sin. That is the second stage. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now look, those who do not believe in Mirza Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A five-year-old child who does not believe, shouldn't we call him Ahmadi? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You will not call him that, I am saying this. So, he will be a disbeliever? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not Ahmadi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning he is not a Muslim. What is he then? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, he has the same religion as his parents. If his parents believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), then he is a Muslim. 452 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And he will be counted among the category of infidels whose parents Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is what it appears to be... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because according to you, he does not believe in a prophet, he is an infidel. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, those who are from the parents are Muslims because of believing in the Holy Prophet ﷺ, they are members of the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are Muslims from their point of view. I am asking from your point of view? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am telling you my point of view. My point of view is that they are Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Despite the fact that they do not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Despite the fact that they do not believe in the Prophet. But they are sinners. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then when you Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And limited disbelief which is used in different meanings comes, they cannot be called non-Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you call them infidels, in what sense do you call them sinners? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are not non-Muslims? Has it been decided that they are not non-Muslims? My meaning of the decision is that my point has become clear? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, I mentioned this to you yesterday that: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 453 All Muslims who have not joined the Messiah Promised's allegiance, you end the sentence here. Then after that: "Even if they haven't heard the name of the Promised Messiah." "All Muslims who have not joined the allegiance of Hazrat Messiah Promised" Can be of two types, those who have heard the name and those who have not heard the name and have not joined. Even if they haven't heard the name of the Promised Messiah, are they also infidels and outside the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I gave the answer to this yesterday. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You did yesterday. Why are you clarifying it again today, that by the circle of Islam, you mean... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Today I mentioned that confusion has arisen by using the term circle of Islam. Therefore, we should take a continuity, the real truth. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because the phrase 'outside the circle of Islam' appears repeatedly in your writing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's because the circle of Islam existed among all Muslims. We have also adopted that circle of Islam. But why aren't you willing to accept the reality of the circle of Islam that is in our minds? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Mirza Sahib! If the Holy Prophet Muhammad... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I think I probably read this answer aloud yesterday as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since you re-defined the circle of Islam again this morning... 454 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Did not re-define. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Clarified? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He clarified it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If not, I am saying, I felt a need for it so that the position is clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This answer should also be resent. Maybe the need won't arise. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That answer has already come on record, it has already come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This thing is evident from this statement itself that I consider those people who are in my mind to be Muslims. So when I use the word "kafir", in my mind, there are other kinds of kafirs, meaning sinners, whom I have already clarified, meaning those who are not out of the Millat. When I say out of the circle of Islam, in my mind there is that concept which has been expressed on page 24 of the book Mufradat Raghib where two types of Islam have been described. We have gone into its detail before: One is "Doon al-Iman" and the other is "Fauq al-Iman," and "Doon al-Iman" includes those Muslims whose level of Islam is less than faith. "Fauq al-Iman" refers to such Muslims who are so distinguished in faith, so distinguished that they are higher than ordinary faith, therefore when I said that some CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 455 people are outside the circle of Islam, then in my mind they were Muslims who fall under the definition of above faith. That is, they are outside this group. They are not included. There is also a narration in Mishkat that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said that whoever helps a tyrant, supports him, he is out of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said this in the morning. Mr. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Every sinner has been called a disbeliever in the hadith." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said in the morning that some are sincere and others are not. Mr. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. And there is a long distance between them and leaving Islam. Some are minor sinners, some are major sinners. May Allah forgive everyone's sins. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do both of them live within the circle of Islam? Mr. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, both live. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, whatever you have said, whether the sincere ones are less or more, you will decide this. Whatever your mind says will happen? Mr. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is the criterion for this? Mr. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Allah Almighty's knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The one that you have... Mr. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Allah Almighty's knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to the knowledge that Allah has given you? 456 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Allah Almighty's knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who will judge Allah Almighty's knowledge? Look, I am seeking clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, I am giving clarification. Only Allah will judge. This clearly means that punishing them or not is not related to this worldly life. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You said that: "When I say I am a Muslim, it is not for Mufti Mahmood or Maulana Maududi to say that I am not." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I am saying this now as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I say that if Allah Almighty has to decide, then leave it to Allah Almighty to decide whether you are or not. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This is what we have... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then why did you take this: "If I decide then nobody has to interfere?" Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, I have to decide about myself. But I do not have to decide about others. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The point is that you are deciding about others. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I... about others... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That they are infidels of this category, infidels of that category. Don't you give them this right, which category of infidels they are? This is the question. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 457 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, you are attributing that thing to me which I have not said. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am talking about a principle. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, don't attribute to me what I have not said. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I submitted to you yesterday that if you claim a right, we concede the same right to someone else. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely. I, myself, am not any superior race. I am a very humble person. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then if you give yourself this right that if I say that I am a Muslim, then no one has the right to say that you are not a Muslim... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said, do you give this same right to another as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we do. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If Mufti Mahmood Sahib says that I am a Muslim... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then he is a Muslim. I also say [he is a] Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't have the right to say that he is not a Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then after that, the question is whether according to your writing, teaching, and beliefs, Mufti Mahmood is in your category? You say he is in the category of infidels. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... 458 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, sir, I am talking - Let me explain: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I did not say that. In this context, I said that they are Muslims of this category. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are they infidels? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, Muslims of this category. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do they also have the right to say whether you are a Muslim of any category or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or are not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They do not have the right to say "are not." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, not here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But they do not have the right to say that I am a Muslim of any category. When I do not accept this right myself that I should decide whether they are Muslims or not, they also do not have the right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, you have created three categories. One category is those whom you say are completely outside the circle of Islam, outside the Ummah, excluded. Can anyone come into it? I do not say who is, who is not... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Abu Jahl came. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Abu Jahl can come, and many others can come. The second category is that you consider them to be within the circle of Islam, but they are not sincere. Therefore, they will be punished more, but they are also infidels. 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 459 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, oh no, do not attribute that statement to me that I did not say. I never said that they will get more punishment. I have been humbly submitting this since yesterday that giving punishment is not a human's job. It is the job of Allah Almighty. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is the job of Allah Almighty, that is what I mean. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He can do whatever He wants. It is not my job to decide less or more. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "They are sinners," "They are destined for hell," these are the words that have been used. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, according to Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab (may Allah have mercy on him), they are destined for hell, and he has said that this is from the hadith. Why are you attributing that statement to me, which I am not even qualified to say? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was just asking that if you consider someone a Muslim of a certain category, and someone a disbeliever of a certain category, will you give the same right to others as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I said, for God's sake, do not attribute to me that which I have not said. I have presented this point before you that in the earlier books, in the books of the righteous predecessors, in Mufradat al-Raghib, and there was a reference to Ibn Taymiyyah, from these references it is known that there is also a difference in faith and there is also a difference in disbelief. And one Islam is above faith and the other faith is below faith. But what I said with reference to them... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza Sahib! I am clarifying so that the position is clear. 460 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: How can you give clarification on my behalf? You don't even give me time to clarify. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! However much time you need, I am not talking about that... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Okay, you talk, then give me time later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am only presenting your reference. Mr. Chairman: I think it would be better if the witness should reply when the question is finished. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I wanted to sum up the position. For two days, I have been citing authorities from your religious literature, Mirza Sahib....... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And I have been trying to explain them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you say, according to these writings, a particular person is kafir (non-Muslim), is not a Muslim, is outside the fold, you have been trying to explain that he is definitely a kafir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Then note my explanation. The matter is finished. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is being noted. I am saying it for the sum up. Consider this your fatwa, understand it as belief, opinion. Meaning, in someone's favor, you have said, what interpretation are you giving? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: When you give me time, I will speak then. You tell me. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 461 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Right now, I am only asking if you have the right to express an opinion about someone being a Kafir, and Kafir has that meaning for you, then they also have the right to say that so-and-so is a Kafir, to what extent is a Kafir, to what extent is not a Kafir, is a Muslim or not a Muslim. You say no? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I absolutely do not say no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am explaining. You say that they do not have the right to say that someone is a Kafir, or in every situation, say that they are Muslims, Muslims to this extent, are Muslims or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I said is that, as we learn from the books of Hadith and the books of our great elders, the righteous predecessors, that every Muslim is not the same kind of Muslim, and the verses of the Holy Quran also point to this, and I have presented two verses here as well. When every Muslim is not the same, and is a Muslim, then we come to know that some are very high-ranking Muslims, some are of middle rank, some are weak Muslims, and the weaknesses that Muslims have... regarding some weaknesses, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and other elders and righteous predecessors have used the word "Kufr" in the sense of sin or ingratitude. So, the apparent command regarding their sin does not mean that they are giving a license, issuing a warrant for punishment, but every wise person, our elders, with the light of Allah Almighty, said that it is not the job of man to punish, and this is the job of Allah Almighty, He can do whatever He wants... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Explain one foot again, tell one meaning again. When they said that the word "Kafir" has been used about some sinners, do you say that it has also been used with them: "And are out of the fold of Islam?" Road them together. 462 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Kharaj min al-Islam" is what happened. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If it has happened, despite this, do you still consider them Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those who said it, they also call them Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's what I'm saying, you give those references that say that they are expelled from Islam, yet they are Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The reference is "Kharaj min al-Islam." A member: It is time for prayer, Sir! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please verify that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a Hadith from Mishkat, narrated from the Holy Prophet (PBUH): That is, regarding idealism with the oppressor, these words are used in Mishkat according to Akram Mal, Kharaj min al-Islam was used. And from the other statements you have, we learn that this does not mean that he became a Jew or... Is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does this mean that he is also a Muslim while also being outside of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, it is not clear from here, will you say from any other reference? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it is clear from this as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because it is not written here that he is also a Muslim and also outside of it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is that until there is a deep study of the Holy Quran and Hadith, the true meaning cannot be known. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 463 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am saying from here that Mirza Sahib is saying that he is outside the circle of Islam and is a disbeliever, after that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And look at both of these, you say that Mirza Sahib says this, and I say that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has said that whoever walks with the oppressor "has left Islam," and no one, not even the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) himself, has taken it to mean that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He didn't say "disbeliever" here. He called him "outside of Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It's the same thing again. When I said he used the word disbelief, you said no, show me the words "left Islam." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is also some meaning in using both together. Mirza Sahib is also using words thoughtfully; he is not using superfluous words. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is saying it thoughtfully. On one hand, he says that he is "a disbeliever, outside the circle of Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who says that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Both are used in the same sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then one became superfluous. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All right, take it as superfluous. 464 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I would not take it because, I think, he is very carefully using these words; he would not use a superfluous word. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this against your other expression of belief? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am taking your clarification on the interpretation of these words. It is not a matter of belief. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am talking about belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are talking about belief, I am taking an explanation about your belief that when they say about non-Ahmadis that they are infidels and out of the circle of Islam, you say that despite this they are Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely, I say. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My understanding is that they are clearly saying that they are infidels, not Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I never understood, yes, I have grown up in this house. I know, they have never taken this meaning, you have. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, you are giving that explanation, the rest of the authorities you are giving. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I give references to Hadith. And references to dozens of Hadiths, if you want, we will refer them to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They did not say infidel? Mr. Chairman: Now we are to break for Maghreb Prayers. The question of the Attorney-General remains unanswered. The witness may reply to that question. The question is: if the witness dubs anybody non-muslim, whether that person has a right to ask them or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. To that I am coming back because that has remained unanswered. Mr. Chairman: Because that was the main question and that remained unanswered. [The Delegation left the Chamber.] Mr. Chairman: The honorable members may keep sitting. (Pause) [The Committee of the House is adjourned to meet at 8.00 p.m. after Maghreb Prayers.] [The Special Committee adjourned for Maghreb Prayers to meet at 8.00 p.m.) [The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghreb prayers Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Should we call them? (Pause) Mr. Chairman, Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi Sahib is not visible. He is preparing something. 466 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I will mention some more references so that there is no time wasted in searching. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It was said yesterday, wasn't it, regarding the insult of Jesus (peace be upon him) and Hazrat Fatima, so our answer is ready. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, you have to explain after admitting them. Read it out. If you want to file it, then file it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is better to read it out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If it is brief. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The references are written. Regarding the references you read about Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him), it is necessary for us to know the conditions of that time. Between 1850-60 and 1880, the British government used to bring a huge army of priests with them. And around '70, a priest, Mr. Imaduddin, wrote an article and sent it to America in which he claimed that the time was near when all of India would become Christian and the Muslims of India would also become Christian, and if a person ever wished to see a Muslim, that wish would not be fulfilled. And at that time, some priests became so emboldened that they announced that soon, God forbid, the flag of the Lord Jesus Christ would be hoisted over Mecca. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 467 At that time, for the defense of the firm religion and for the responsive sentences of Islam, Allah Almighty created numerous scholars, of whom I will name three: Nawab Siddiq Hasan Khan Sahib, Maulvi Aal Hasan Sahib, and Maulvi Rahmat Ali Sahib Muhajir Makki. Besides them, references to Ahmed Raza Sahib etc. are also there. And there were others too. And Hazrat Masih Maud, the founder of the order, was also there. And such a tremendous war began that it is difficult for the people of that era to estimate. At that time, relying on the power of the British government, the priests uttered such filthy abuses against our beloved Hazrat Khatam-ul-Anbiya Muhammad ﷺ that even thinking about them makes one's hair stand on end. All those whom I have named and some others who are there, they responded to the foul language of the priests by extracting from their own Gospel, whatever sketch the Gospel had drawn, that accusatory response, as they call it, they gave and declared. All these scholars had great minds, Allah Almighty had given them insight, had given them the love of Islam. On one hand, it was difficult for them that Hazrat Masih (peace be upon him) is Allah Almighty's prophet and a great servant, and on the other hand, it was that in his name, Hazrat Muhammad ﷺ, Hazrat Khatam-ul-Anbiya, who is the first of the prophets as well as the last, towards him and to reveal his greatness and glory. Therefore, as a result of the insight granted by Allah Almighty, those elders created two different personalities: the personality of Jesus and the personality of Masih (peace be upon him), one the personality that the Gospel is presenting and the other the personality that the Glorious Quran is presenting. And after clarifying this point that Hazrat Masih (peace be upon him) is God's chosen prophet and it is necessary to respect and honor him, but the sentence we are passing is not on the true Masih (peace be upon him), it is on that Jesus who, according to you, claimed divinity. So by completely separating the two personalities, as a result of this God-given insight, they were able to shatter that veil which had been erected against Islam. 468 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 First, I will read some references from other elders, may Allah reward them, then I will read references from the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement. Mr. Maulvi Aal Hassan Sahib writes in his book "Istifsaar": "What level of harshness did Hazrat Isa adopt that he did not use in addressing the Jews regarding their blasphemies?" (Istifsaar 417) Then he writes: "Some jugglers perform the miracle of Hazrat Isa reviving the dead, such as cutting off a man's head, then putting it back on in front of everyone and saying, 'Stand up!' and he stands up. The prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Jesus (peace be upon him) can be easily derived from the rules of astrology and rail, in fact, even better." This is also a reference from Istifsaar. The second reference is from 336, and the third is also from 336: "The whole point is that if the prophecies of the prophets of Israel and the apostles are just like the talk of dreams and those in ecstasy..." On page 133 of the same book, Jesus said: "Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but I have nowhere to lay my head." See, this is poetic exaggeration and a clear complaint about the narrowness of the world, which is the most extreme. -(349) On page 470 of this book, he states: "Hazrat Isa was angry at a fig tree only because it had no fruit, but being angry at inanimate objects is intellectually a matter of complete ignorance." Then on page 419, he states: "Hazrat Isa was excessively abusive to the Jews, which was unjust." On page 107 of the same book, he states: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION The training of Hazrat Isa (Jesus), according to wisdom, turned out to be very deficient. Then, on 370, he states... Besides them, an elder, Maulvi Rahmatullah Sahib Muhajir Makki, okay, here is the second reference starting. Besides them, as I mentioned, there is Maulvi Rahmat, there is a reference to his book, page 370, "Izalatul Auham" is the name of his book, Maulvi Rahmatullah Sahib Muhajir Makki, whose book is named "Izalatul Auham," he writes in his book, which is in Persian: "Many women used to walk with Janab Masih (Mr. Messiah) and feed him from their wealth, and prostitute women used to kiss his feet. And Janab (Mr.) used to love Marta Maryam. And he himself used to give wine for other people to drink." Similarly, in "Rood Kauthar" by Sheikh Muhammad Akram, M.A., it is written about Hazrat Shah Abdul Aziz (may God have mercy on him) that: Once a priest came to Shah Sahib and asked, "Is your Prophet Habibullah (Beloved of God)?" (The priest asked this question.) He replied: "Yes." He said: "Then why did he not cry out at the time of Imam Hussain's martyrdom, or was this cry not heard?" Shah Sahib said that the Prophet did cry out. Shah Sahib said that the Prophet did cry out but he received the answer that your grandson has been martyred by the nation with cruelty, but at that time we are reminded of our son Isa (Jesus Christ) being crucified (Al-Ataya al-Nabawiyya Fi al-Fatawa"). This is Maulana Ahmed Raza Khan Sahib, a very famous religious leader of ours, the Imam of the Barelvis, he says: 469 470 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 The Christians call such a one God (Jesus) who is certainly a prayer performer, repents too, gets tired too, such a one who has two wives, both adulterous, extremely promiscuous, such a one for whom the earnings of adultery, the expenses of a prostitute, are perfectly sacred and pure earnings, such a one who, by making it lawful to make slaves and servants, committed extremely impure, cruel, and barbaric acts in the Christian religion. And then not only for mere work and service, but also ordered Moses to capture the women of opponents and make them concubines, to have intercourse with them, such a one whose law is utterly false, righteousness does not come from it, it has nothing to do with faith. Whoever acts according to his law is cursed, indeed his only son is himself cursed. Yet he commands to act on such an accursed law, demands its adherence from the servants, punishes for its abandonment, such a one who is so ignorant that he could not do a very simple calculation, declared the son older in age than the father, such a one who is so foolish that he could not correctly count the fathers of his only begotten, sometimes 27 fathers up to David, sometimes increasing it by 15 to 42 fathers - Etc., etc. Accursed nonsense. This is a reference to Maulana Ahmed Raza Khan Sahib. "Al-Ataya al-Nabawiyya fi al-Fatawa al-Radawiyya." Then Fatawa Azizia is present on page 740, this book. Then Al-Hadith Amritsar March 31, 1939, writes: The two Messiahs, according to their own admission, were not good people. Then it is written in "Al-Hadith" that: "When the treachery of self-deprecation was invalidated, then by negating goodness, it was apparently proven that he, like humans, is not infallible. Similarly, it is also known from studying the Gospel that the Messiah had strange women pour perfume on his head. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 471 The Hadith, March 31, 1939 It is obvious that making a strange woman, even a prostitute or a woman of bad character, touch her head and feet, and that too with her hair, is against all caution. Such actions are in clear violation of the divine Sharia. And Hazrat Maulana Abul Ala Maududi Sahib states in Tafhim-ul-Quran, Volume 1, 491: "The truth is that these people do not believe in the historical Messiah at all. (I had mentioned Jesus. There is a difference. The truth is that these people do not believe in the historical Messiah who appeared in the real world, but they have created a fictitious Messiah from their own illusions and made him God." In this context, I now take "Taqwiyat-ul-Iman." Nawab Siddiq Hassan, no, Shah Ismail Shaheed Sahib explains that: "This Emperor is of such glory that in an instant, with a command of 'Be,' He can create millions of prophets and saints, jinn and angels, equal to Gabriel and Muhammad ﷺ." Regarding some references of the founder of the Ahmadiyya سلسلہ that you have read here, I will tell you, you write that: "In this era, the disrespect of the religion of Islam and the Holy Prophet that has been done, and the attacks on the divine Sharia that have occurred, and the way the door to apostasy and heresy has opened, can its precedent be found in any other era? Is it not true that in a short time this country 472 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 7, 1974 In India, nearly one hundred thousand people converted to Christianity, and six crore and somewhat more books were written against Islam. People from noble families lost their pure religion to the extent that those who were known as the descendants of the Prophet became enemies of the Prophet by adopting Christianity. A complete list, name, ethnicity, and place of this is mentioned in the book of Father Imaduddin Sahib, to which reference is made here: They became enemies of the Prophet by adopting Christianity. So many books of slander, insult, and abuse were printed and published against the Holy Prophet ﷺ that hearing them made one's body tremble, and the heart wept, bearing witness that even if these people killed our children before our eyes, and cut into pieces our loved ones, who are dear to us in the world, and killed us with great humiliation, and seized all our wealth, by God, we would not have been as grieved, nor would our hearts have been as wounded, as they are by the insults and blasphemy against our Holy Prophet. This is a reference to Ruhani Khazain, Volume Five, or Ayeena Kamalat-e-Islam, and its date of publication is 1972. It is a very old book, written by the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement. In Anjam Atham, you write: And remember that this is our opinion (which we are writing) about that Jesus who claimed divinity and called the former prophets thieves and robbers. And about the Seal of the Prophets ﷺ, he said nothing except that false prophets would come after me. There is no mention of such a Jesus in the Quran." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 473 Then you say that: (Anjam Atham, page 13) The audience should remember that in mentioning the Christian religion, it was necessary for us to speak in the same manner as they do against us. In reality, Christians do not believe in our Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, who called himself only a servant and a prophet, considered the previous prophets to be righteous, and sincerely believed in the coming Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and prophesied about the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him; rather, they believe in a person named Jesus who is not mentioned in the Quran. And they say that this person claimed divinity and even referred to the prophets as highway robbers. They also say that this person was a staunch denier of our Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and he also prophesied that after me, all will be liars. So you all know well that the Holy Quran has not taught us to believe in such a person (Arya Dharam, title page, last). Then you write: We had nothing to do with the priests' Jesus and his behavior. They unjustly provoked us by insulting our Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, to reveal some of the little information about their Jesus to them. Thus, this vile, unworthy (Fateh Masih (is a priest)) in his letter that he sent to me, gave very dirty abuses to the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him (no need to read, and in addition, he gave many more abuses). 474 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th August, 1974 This vile and wicked sect, which worships the dead, has forced us to write some of the circumstances of their Jesus. Then you write in Targhib al-Mo'minin, page 19, in the footnote: "هذا ما كتبنا من الانا حيل على سبيل الزام و انا تكرم مسيحا وتعلم وانه كان تقيأ و من الانبياء الكرام " (We have written all these things from the Gospels as an accusation, otherwise, we respect the Messiah and believe that he was a pious and chosen prophet.) That is, what has been written is about Jesus, not about Hazrat Isa (A.S.). Then it is written in Sat Bachan: The strange trinity atonement could not save even the grandmothers and great-grandmothers of Jesus from adultery. Whereas their adulteries would have stained the essence of Jesus. And these grandmothers and great-grandmothers are not just one or two, but three. So, one great-grandmother of Jesus, who was also a grandmother in a way, was Rahab, i.e., a prostitute. (See Joshua 2) (reference is given ahead) and the second great-grandmother, who was also a grandmother in a way, her name is Qamar. This was domestic, an adulterous woman who committed fornication. See Genesis, 38, 16 to 30 and a maternal grandmother of Jesus , who was also a grandmother by relation, is named Bint Saba. She was a pious woman who committed adultery with David. (We seek refuge in Allah) See 2 Samuel, 2:11. Similarly, this has come in between. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION This is a reference from Nawab Siddiq Hasan Khan Sahib: Once a pious king of Ranchi Room went to England, where a Christian, seeing him as a Muslim, taunted him, "Do you know what people said about your Prophet's wife?" He replied, "Yes, I know. There were two wives in a similar situation who were accused of adultery. But the difference was that one wife was only accused, while the other wife even gave birth to a child." The Christian was stunned. This answer was given as a comparison, to end the accusation, not according to the truth. In reality, both Aisha and Mary were free from this fault. So, an accusatory answer is included in this list. Similarly, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement wrote in Ayyam-us-Solh: "We are also commissioned by God Almighty to believe that Jesus Christ is a true, pure, and righteous person of God Almighty and to have faith in his prophethood. So there is no word in any of our books that is against his noble status. And if anyone thinks otherwise, they are deceived and wrong." On page 93 of Kitab-ul-Bariyah, you write: "In the circumstances in which we consider Jesus Christ to be a true prophet, righteous, and good of God Almighty, how can harsh words come from our pen against his glory?" Then you say: "Jesus Christ, through his words and deeds, proves himself to be humble, and there is no attribute of God Almighty in him. A humble 475 476 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August, 1974 They are human beings. The Prophet of God is without a doubt. God's chosen Messenger. There is no doubt in this. Then you state that: If the objection is that someone has insulted a Prophet and that it is a statement of disbelief, the response to that is also this: لعنت الله على الكاذبين (The curse of Allah be upon the liars) And we believe in all the prophets and view them with respect. Some phrases that are relevant are not meant to be, but rather they are in support of monotheism: انما الاعمال بالنيات (Actions are judged by intentions) And those with intellect like yours have also called the author of "Taqwiyat-ul-Iman" (whose reference I just read) an infidel with the same thought. Some words in his book seemed as if he was insulting the prophets and considering the sweepers and tanners equal to them. Our response, like theirs, is the same: Then you state in "Tazkirat-ush-Shahadatain" that: Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ), peace be upon him, was accompanied by divine support and had sufficient knowledge of true insight, so that the Jews could recognize him and believe in him. But they grew in wickedness day by day, and whatever happens to the righteous, they must have witnessed in Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ), peace be upon him. Then you state in "Ijaz-e-Ahmadi": I believe that no human being can live even one night after speaking ill of a truthful person like Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him) or Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ), peace be upon him, and the threat of من عادلي وليا ..... (Whoever harms a friend of Mine...) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 477 "...grabs him hand to hand." These references prove that when Christianity, in its full dominance and combined with its worldly power, attacked Islam, and when this onslaught reached India, those pure and holy individuals who had no affiliation with this group were also born in India to counter this onslaught. The Ahmadiyya movement also arose, and both adopted the same path, that is, by declaring Jesus as a separate entity and, with references to the Temple and the Gospel, they placed this... honor upon him. So this is the answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it's on record, sir, you have already stated it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, I have stated it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's the same thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Agreed. The second was Hazrat Fatima. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me verify this first. Mirza Sahib, earlier you said that there are two figures of Hazrat Isa (A.S.). One, according to Christians, is Jesus, and the other, according to the Holy Quran, is Hazrat Isa (A.S.). In reality, were there two personalities, or one? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In reality, there is no Jesus. That Jesus who has been made God does not exist at all; only his image is found. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, in your opinion, there is only one? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The original is... 478 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the eyes of Islam or in your eyes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the eyes of Islam, according to us, that is the personality that the Holy Quran has described. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In that Holy Quran, those personalities, were they grandmothers? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That personality... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Were they maternal grandmothers? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Grandmothers, maternal grandmothers. But this accusation that has been made against the grandmothers and maternal grandmothers, the followers of Jesus have made it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand this. The details you have given, this imaginary accusation they have made against them, has Mirza Sahib condemned it or justified it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He strongly opposed the Christians. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, first let's see, the two personalities you said that their personality does not exist in your eyes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the thing is that at that time, by chanting the slogan of Lord Jesus Christ, they attacked Islam. The retaliatory attack is on Lord Jesus Christ. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Actually, when you say: It is on Lord Jesus Christ, this is correct in your mind. Christians have a concept of Jesus Christ. But the reference is to that one personality, to his grandmothers, which is mentioned in the Holy Quran. They misunderstood it. They misunderstood his teachings. They misunderstood it. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 479 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And they were accused of accusing their grandmothers and their maternal grandmothers. Lord Jesus, who is, his relationships with women, as I have referenced here from the books of three or four different scholars. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then I further ask you that if someone insults me, then should I insult them back? Is this the right thing to do? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If someone insults me and I insult them back, then this will not be the right thing to do. But my answer is not yet complete, but if someone writes those insults in a book about someone, which are in their own books, then did he not give those insults? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If someone speaks ill of your elders, prophets, I mean Muslims, our teaching is that you should not speak ill of even their false prophets, gods, or deities. Is this our teaching or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "None of us, here I mean Ahmed Raza Sahib and all the scholars and the founder of the order, have insulted anyone. They have been told that your books write about that person, whom you say was God. Nothing has been said from our side, so how can we have insulted? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will tell you that it is also written from your side. Even from their books, you are saying. I will read these references again. Please consider again... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Jesus and Christ are two different personalities. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is your supplement "Anjaam Atham" footnote number seven. 480 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 "Then after that comes a bracket, "Isa (A.S.) is nobody existing in Anjeel or Bible: it is only in Quran Shareef." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We haven't checked the reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Check it now. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, who wrote "Isa (A.S.)" in brackets? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What I have says: "Your family is very pure. Three grandmothers and maternal grandmothers of yours were adulterous and prostitute women, from whose blood your existence came into being." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Listen, this is wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It's not in brackets? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there are no brackets at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It only says "Your"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It only says "Your." There are no brackets at all. That's why I say, you should check what the original says about Jesus. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then I asked you the next point. These grandmothers, which grandmothers are these a reference to? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Jesus'. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: حضرت عیسی Did Hazrat Isa (Jesus) not have grandmothers? Were these some other grandmothers? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The grandmothers of Hazrat Isa (A.S.) were not immoral, they were virtuous. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 481 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, there became two personalities, physically? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely two personalities. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Physically different too? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: An imaginary person doesn't have grandmothers? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The imaginary person has imaginary valleys too. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those are imaginary too? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What else? Otherwise, I am saying that the original one was Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him), their grandmothers were pure and virtuous. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When they say Jesus, you say that's another personality. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But in some places, for example, the references I have read of others, they have differentiated. And in their writing, they have also written Isa (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib says... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have combined the sayings of both. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Maseeh (Christ) peace be upon him" when they say... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Maseeh (Christ) peace be upon him" if written in some places, then "Jesus" is meant there too, because the author has made a clear distinction. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, at one place they say Jesus. They say... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Once you've said this. 482 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please see, sir, the words they have used. In one place you said that I said "bracket," okay, "bracket" cannot be there; has the author written it or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, there is an accusation against us. There is nothing like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right. That's what I am saying. You said it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The person who wrote this is the one who gave you this as a question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, to clarify that this is a reference to Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. So, then you say that "Christ, peace be upon him"... so "Christ, peace be upon him"... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which reference is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is "Maktoob-e-Ahmadiyya, page 21-22" Is it 21-22 or 21-24? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This needs to be checked, sir. We don't have it here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have already read it out: "What was the conduct of Christ, peace be upon him? Eat, drink, neither ascetic nor worshiper. Yesterday, you said that you would check." "Truthfulness, arrogance, self-conceit, claimant of Godhood." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The one who claims Godhood is automatically arrogant and irreligious. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here you are referencing Christ, peace be upon him... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 483 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Our other elders have also attacked in the same way, calling him Christ." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I mean, that may explain, will not justify, that is what I am trying to explain. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That, that ......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You may say that ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will ask you a simple thing....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Listen to my answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean my question to you, have you understood it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, explain the question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A crime is charged against me in court, they take me, they say, "You have committed this crime." I say, you don't catch others, they have also committed the same crime. Is this a defense? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is not. I am not a fool to say that it is a defense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Leave aside whether they have committed a crime or not. Look... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You didn't understand my point, or I couldn't explain it. I am sorry. I shouldn't have said that you didn't understand. I couldn't explain the point to you. 484 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August, 1974 What I mean to say is that a person openly writes in his books once that whatever my attack is, it is on Jesus, the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am doing this attack also as a counter-allegation. After such an open explanation, if "Christ, peace be upon him" is written somewhere, then considering it objectionable is not correct in my opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now look, Mr. Naji, I am asking for a reference because these references, you say that they have been taken from their books. But I will ask you about one reference, that this reference comes from Anjam Atham, page 274. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anjam Atham, page 274 (to a member of his delegation) Find it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now see that what they said, leave what their priests wrote in the books. Here it says: "You often had a habit of cursing and using abusive language." Mirza Sahib! This, if you give me a minute... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I was just looking at that reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let me read this first. Then you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The same words so that you can see: "You often had a habit of cursing and using abusive language." Well, you say that they themselves have also said that these people have written about them that they used to lie: "You also had a habit of lying to some extent." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 485 Maybe this is from their books. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is from their book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know, I just say. Now, I ask further whose thought this is: "And it is a matter of great shame that you have stolen the Sermon on the Mount, which is called the essence of the Gospel, from the Jewish book 'Talmud' and written it." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it is stolen from the Talmud and written, then it is theirs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning this that is, is this Mirza Sahib's own? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If... then it came out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So this is Mirza Sahib's own conclusion, right? No one else has said it? Is it not written in any Gospel? (Pause) I don't know, this is it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, sir, okay, then listen to the whole thing. The answer is the same... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have the same thing. I will read it out: "It should also be remembered that you also had a habit of lying to some extent." This is for Yasu, not for "Beech": "Of the many prophecies that you have stated to be found in the Torah regarding your own person, no trace of them is found in those books, rather they were in favor of others who were fulfilled before your birth. And it is a matter of great shame that you The teachings of the mountain, which is called the essence of the Gospel." 486 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974 This that you... And it is a matter of great shame that you have taken the Sermon on the Mount, which is called the essence of the Gospel, and copied it from the Jewish book "Talmud" and then presented it as if it were my teaching. But no further answer: Christians have been very ashamed since this theft was discovered. You probably did this to gain influence by showing a sample of some good teaching. Christians have been very ashamed since this theft was discovered. This is the answer to that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar Mirza Sahib! I want to ask you a simple question, first you said that it appears in their books that Jesus used to lie, use abusive language, and was immoral. This is from their books. This one conclusion is that he was a thief. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, this is not a conclusion, this is the historical fact proved by their books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Historical fact proved from whose books? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Proved from Talmud when the word is found word for word in the Talmud... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has any Christian ever said anywhere that they stole this? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE YOKIONI Sambar ka as Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They said this, they were forced to admit that a person says, "This is my article" and another comes, he says, "You have taken all of this from such and such book and it is word for word and there is no difference in it." Then he is ashamed. And this is proof. And this is from their own book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, you have proven this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have proven this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That he was a thief? And they admitted this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have proven that the Sermon on the Mount was taken word for word from the Talmud. And when this was presented to the Christians, they did not object but were ashamed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying to you, look, there is an allegation that a sermon from the "Talmud," or the Sermon on the Mount, which is famous, Jesus (peace be upon him) takes and narrates to his people, to his followers. Does this necessarily mean that he stole it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If he said that I took this article from the "Talmud" then surely he did not steal it. If he said that "I am presenting this to you from my own side and it came out of the Talmud, then the existence of this article in the Talmud proves it from their books, not to say it from one's own side. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, they say it was a message from God, I am conveying it, according to them, all the messages are from God. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Gospel will tell, isn't it? 488 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is what Yahoodi Chauri has. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, in this book, it was on 290 in this edition: "And it is written by stealing from the Jewish book "Talmud"." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And after that, yes, yes, I am going to tell you something. In the end, they write: "Finally, we write that we have no interest in the priests' Jesus and his behavior. They unjustly provoked us by cursing our Prophet (PBUH), that we should reveal a little bit of their Jesus to them." So this was revealed to them and they were ashamed. Now the priests were ashamed and we got into this discussion that how did we know that it was taken from the oppressors and stolen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was asking you before, sir, that if the priests have done wrong so we say that we will justify, we will... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Theirs, not ours, ours is the Promised Messiah... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They will speak ill of our elders, we will speak ill of their elders, they will speak ill of our prophets, we will speak ill of their prophets, are you justifying this first? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am not justifying this, we are justifying that if they accuse the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in a cruel way, then to shut their mouths, we... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 489 They will not say anything from their side, even though they are speaking on their own behalf. We will take such things out of their own books and put them in front of them that they will have to be ashamed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, for theft, this is your own conclusion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, not at all my own. This is not my own at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning they used to say that our Jesus committed this theft? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Their allegation was that the Holy Quran, God forbid, had stolen some parts of its teachings from the Bible, and they proved it. This is an accusatory response that, taking from the oppressors and attributing it to himself, Lord Jesus Christ presented this teaching. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, you prove one thing, you explain one thing, that is fine. But if they do wrong, will they swear, then will we also swear? You... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That was not the question here. I have given the answer to the question that was there, whatever came to my understanding, that's it, it's over. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That the priests swore, we swore at their Jesus? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If I start narrating here the abuses they have hurled at the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), everyone here will start crying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no need. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You don't even understand the extent of the injustice, what injustice... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One feels like crying about Jesus Christ... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 7th, 1974) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They had torn the hearts of the Muslim Ummah with their abuses. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that here the reference they are giving is that they abused, so we were compelled to abuse them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely not, I did not say this. For God's sake, do not attribute to me what I have not said. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please explain, what was the need to mention the priests? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said that when they abused Muhammad ﷺ, when Muhammad ﷺ was abused, then Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) and other elders of that time, did not abuse them to silence them, rather they told them, "How can you say such things when these things are written in your Bible?" This is not an abuse. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say that Jesus (peace be upon him) is two personalities, but physically one? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I say nothing. I say that there is one Christ (peace be upon him) and one Jesus. And the image of Jesus that the Bible itself has described, I put it before them. I did not abuse them on my own. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I asked you in the beginning, is it one personality? You say there are two. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, one is the Lord Jesus Christ, who is mentioned in the Bible, and one is Christ (peace be upon him) who is mentioned in the Holy Quran. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 491 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And are they the same person? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How can there be one person? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is, how can a thief and a saint become one person? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mr. Sahib! There is a person about whom one person has one opinion, and another has another opinion. Do they not become two personalities? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is a person who is claiming divinity. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, even if he claims divinity... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say his claim is wrong? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I absolutely do not say his claim is wrong. I am saying that a false claim is being attributed to that poor man. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But the person is the same about whom this is attributed? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, then what is the question? I don't understand the question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying that when you say there are two personalities. One is that Jesus whom Christians mention, who is mentioned in the Bible. The other is that Isa (Jesus) (peace be upon him) who is mentioned in the Quran. I said that these personalities are either completely different or the same personality about whom we have one opinion, we consider him a prophet, we consider him truthful, we consider him pure, and the same person Christians consider him God, they consider him Jesus. These allegations that have been made, is it the same person or different about whom there are two different conceptions? 492 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the statement of the Holy Quran is correct, and it certainly is, then Jesus is an imaginary being and nothing more. The personality is that of an individual. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look here, are grandmothers imaginary that they are imaginary grandmothers, and they are committing imaginary adultery? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no sir, it's the same thing again, if you say that when Christians with their deceit gave such severe, dirty, unbearable abuses to Akram (most honorable one), then weren't the words and phrases that were written in the Gospel itself presented before them? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does that mean if they spoke ill, we should also speak ill? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, absolutely not, we do not speak ill, we present their Gospel before them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, Mirza Sahib, I say that the personality that is in front of us, the grandmothers that are there, that is what I said to you before, that these grandmothers, were they also grandmothers of Jesus Christ or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, these grandmothers were absolutely not, there was no grandmother who was illegitimate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning they were virtuous? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They were virtuous, chaste. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They were chaste but they were there, those three maternal grandmothers and three paternal grandmothers? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I absolutely confess my ignorance, I am not understanding your question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, meaning here where it is mentioned that he had three paternal grandmothers and three maternal grandmothers, I am saying is this the same personality or someone else about whom they are saying this wrong thing? You say that they were chaste. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 493 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You may have your opinion and let me have my own. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you are entitled to have your opinion; but here is a question of interpretation that Jesus or Isa (peace be upon him) had three grandmothers and three maternal grandmothers. I asked, are the Isa (peace be upon him) the same person who Christians say was Jesus? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Two pictures came before you, two very handsome, beautiful pictures. Let me finish my point. You interrupt me in the middle. Then I become silent. If it is your order, then I will not speak. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I have not even gotten ten percent of the time to speak, compared to how much you are speaking. Check the tape and see for yourself. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is also not a matter of debate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I mean that if you say, "Don't speak," I will not speak. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please do speak. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I only ask for this much right, that until my statement has not finished, you should not start speaking in between. I humbly submit this to you. Mr. Chairman: So far as the discussion between the questions is concerned, I may observe my previous observation again. I may repeat: Let Attorney-General complete the question, let the answer from the witness come, and then the witness can add an explanation. If we adopt this procedure, we will cut short many of the discussions which take place between the Attorney-General and the witness and which are totally not relevant to the subject. 494 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I submitted, and I repeat, that Jesus (peace be upon him) was a prophet in whom we believe, who is mentioned in the Holy Quran. According to Christians, Jesus Christ is their prophet. Are these two different personalities? When Christians say Jesus Christ and we say Jesus (peace be upon him). Then I say that if it is the same person, Christians have this conception about him that he claimed divinity, or was the son of God. And we say they are wrong. This is the person being talked about. After that, when you say that "his three valleys, three grandmothers". Is this only towards Jesus, not towards Jesus (peace be upon him)? Have these become different personalities or is it the same person? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I did not understand the question. Mr. Chairman: Again this question may be repeated, yes. The witness has not followed the question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will repeat. There is a prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) in whom we believe, who is mentioned in the Holy Quran. And Christians Jesus Christ… Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Lord Jesus Christ. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, meaning Jesus Christ. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, that is their phrase, "Lord Jesus Christ". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One prophet is theirs... Mr. Chairman: Let the question be put. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Jesus Christ is their prophet, whom they consider God or who claimed divinity. Are these different personalities or the same person? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 495 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Lord Jesus Christ does not exist at all. And Christ Jesus, peace be upon him, does exist and God Almighty has mentioned him with love and affection in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I repeat to Mirza Sahib again. We say Jesus Christ and they say Jesus Christ, does that refer to the same personality, the same prophet? Is their concept the same or a different personality? Physically, not theoretically. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: When Christians say "Lord Jesus Christ," they are certainly not referring to Christ, peace be upon him, who is mentioned in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, it is a different personality? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: They will tell you, I cannot. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. When you say that Jesus Christ had grandmothers and maternal grandmothers, were they also the grandmothers and maternal grandmothers of Jesus, peace be upon him? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The grandmothers and maternal grandmothers who are mentioned in the Gospel with the morality that is described, those were not the grandmothers and maternal grandmothers of Christ, peace be upon him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Were the grandmothers and maternal grandmothers of Christ, peace be upon him, and Jesus Christ different women or the same? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The women who are mentioned in the Torah, with that morality, were not the grandmothers and maternal grandmothers of Christ, peace be upon him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking physically, the matter of morality comes later. Were the women who were the grandmothers and maternal grandmothers of Jesus Christ the same women who were the grandmothers and maternal grandmothers of Jesus Christ or not? 496 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The grandmothers of the Messiah (peace be upon him), who is mentioned in the Holy Quran, are not mentioned in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Their grandmothers, etc., are not in our Holy Quran? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are not mentioned in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If their grandmothers or maternal grandmothers are not mentioned, does it mean that the grandmothers and maternal grandmothers existed but were not mentioned, or that they did not exist at all? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Quran mentions Hazrat Messiah (peace be upon him), but does not mention his grandmothers or maternal grandmothers. And I am only referring to the Messiah (peace be upon him) who is presented by the Holy Quran... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Either we will say that we have no knowledge of his grandmothers and maternal grandmothers, and if we do have knowledge, it is from the Bible or some other book, not from the Holy Quran. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, the Messiah (peace be upon him) who is presented by the Holy Quran, there is no mention of his grandmothers or maternal grandmothers in the Holy Quran. And we do not need to get into this quest. In any case, a human is always born from a woman's womb. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When it is said here that his three maternal and paternal grandmothers were women from whose blood your existence came into being... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not said for the Messiah (peace be upon him) whose grandmothers and maternal grandmothers are not even mentioned in the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, physically, I am talking about the personality that is not mentioned in the Holy Quran? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know. I have only read the Holy Quran. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 497 This is a good answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Physically? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't even know if it's one or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Ch. Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman, a point of explanation. In the eyes of Christians, Jesus Christ was the son of God. Mr. Chairman: No, no, this is no point of explanation, Chaudhry Sahib, this you can talk to the Attorney-General privately. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, this is what you just said about Hazrat Fatima. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is there time, or will you dismiss it? I'm feeling a little tired. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I think it will be over in a little while. If you are tired, then we... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am tired. I can only request. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no sir, you are tired... Mr. Chairman: The delegation is permitted to leave: to report tomorrow at 10.00 a.m. The honorable members may keep sitting. [The Delegation left the Chamber] 498 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 REVIEW OF PROCEDURE AND PROGRESS OF CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Chairman: Now we can discuss for a few minutes. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi Sahib! Please stay for a minute, please sit for a second! I think that now we can have a little discussion, after three days of proceedings, that How do we proceed, the Attorney-General, if he likes! Now in what way can we! can continue with the same procedure of question-answer and the explanation or, if he likes, the Steering Committee can meet, whatever he likes. I would like it as he says, because I had made a promise that, after three days, we will review the situation. I would like to hear the Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will try to explain because there is some difficulty. I cannot say in advance where I am proceeding, because much depends on answers....... Mr. Chairman: You should not tell your strategy; you need not disclose the strategy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .......but I am halfway through it and I would need some more time before we can come to the conclusion. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Then, tomorrow evening, we shall again review the situation. There is no need of the Steering Committee meeting tomorrow, no, it's okay. Tell them for tomorrow. Inform them that we will discuss it. Inform them that tomorrow you are not needed. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Mr. Chairman, may I have permission? In my opinion, if the Honorable Attorney General is satisfied then however he deems fit, that is fine. I only wanted just. Mr. Chairman: Okay. REVIEW OF PROCEDURE AND PROGRESS OF CROSS-EXAMINATION 499 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, I would like to request the Special Committee to grant me some latitude. Please do not worry if it takes an extra day. Mr. Chairman: Alright. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui: Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit one thing. Mr. Chairman: Please come forward. You must submit your point now, please proceed. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui: I would like to submit that the proceedings, they should also do this, we can sit late, so they can listen and come after eating something. Mr. Chairman: This is uncalled for; these remarks are uncalled for. You can give them private advice, you can advise them privately. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui: If you seat me until twelve o'clock, nine o'clock is too early. Mr. Chairman: He has come today. I have already said that they want to postpone the proceedings. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui: You should at least keep them until ten o'clock... (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If Maulana is saying that he is tired... Mr. Chairman: The witness is entitled to this even in court. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: He had already said on the first day that his mind is not paralyzed. Mr. Chairman: This is just a second. 500 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (7th August, 1974) Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Mr. Chairman! He had already said on the first day that my mind, never gets tired, nor will it be खराब [kharab - ruined/spoiled], so his mind has attained maturity. ...... Mr. Chairman: I would like to submit, sir, under the law, Mian Sahib will testify that a witness is entitled to certain consideration if he says that he is not feeling well. One thing more I want to say. So far as the strategy is concerned, the House has complete faith in the Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am very grateful, Sir. The thing is this: there are two difficulties - One is that many honourable members have asked many questions. I am trying to fit in those in various subjects. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, there is a subject of Kufr. There is a subject of his claim and right that "if I am a Muslim, nobody has a right to call me that I am not a Muslim"; and I am saying: "Whether you concede the same right to others? If you call others that they are Kafir, then they have a right to call you Kafir." That is very obvious. Now we are in the grip of that subject. Apart from that, now comes the question of Jihad. That is a different subject because if somebody deceives the essentials of Islam, then he is Munkir. That will come in a different way. Similarly, what he did about the British......... Mr. Chairman: No, No, you know better how to put the questions. We want only one thing. What the desire of the House is that when a definite question is put - now we are confirming them: the witness - they should first answer the Attorney-General. REVIEW OF PROCEDURE AND PROGRESS OF CROSS-EXAMINATION 501 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My own view-point is that if he does not answer, that I will leave the subject; then come back........ Mr. Chairman: Yes, then again come back; and then to be taken unawares. One thing-I want to ask one more question that, tomorrow, we will not be able to finish it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not think so. Mr. Chairman: I do not think so; we do not think so. So, the Lahori Party, which we had called for tomorrow..... (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not even Friday. Mr. Chairman: Not even Friday, so, they may be informed that..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Saturday or Monday. Mr. Chairman: Saturday or on 20th, according to.......or not even on Saturday. So, it will not be tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is right because then we can formulate and study all the aspects. Mr. Chairman: Yes. We must have some break. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, my own view is that - I do not know if our witness is coming from Lahore Now a lot of things that we have on record, we will have to get out of Lahori Party. Mr. Chairman: Yes. So, tomorrow, I will announce....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, we can fully prepare after we have read then evidence; then I will ask the questions. We should not do it in a hurry. 502 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Yes, we are not in a hurry. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We can have a break for ten days in between. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It makes no difference. We can examine them later; and that will take a day or so. Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow I will be able to tell the honourable members the tentative programme also; and then we will discuss it. In the meantime, the Lahori Party may be stopped from coming tomorrow, yes. Now I want to..... Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, a minute. (Mian Muhammad Attaullah stood up.) Mr. Chairman: Mian Attaullah. Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: My submission, Sir.......... Mr. Chairman: I have given the floor to Mian Attaulah. Then afterward ..... Mian Muhammad Ataullah: Sir! The strategy that has now been adopted, as you have already stated, is agreed upon by the entire House. I only wanted to add to this that in today's afternoon session, Mirza Sahib has tried, he has been trying to save himself in the explanations of the answers. But now he has very successfully and in a very good way bound them with those things and taken definite answers from them. Since there are four or five main subjects on which he can be cornered very easily, and if, as the Attorney General has said, and I... I fully agree with him that he should take those four or five subjects and corner him on them. He should keep adding as many questions as come under it. I think he won't be able to escape then. Mr. Chairman: Haji Maula Bakhsh Soomro. Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir...the expression that there is going to be ten days' break, from which date? It is lying in abeyance. My submission is that the continuity should not be broken. Only for two or three days you can. Mr. Chairman: No, we will finish one subject and then we will start the other subject. Continuity will not be broken, take it for granted, continuity shall not be broken. We cannot leave it in the middle; we cannot leave the witness......... Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, ten days' break is a long period. My submission is...... Mr. Chairman: Haji Sahib, I may tell you that this witness will finish. It may take us ten days. And after that we will think, because you need time for preparation. You do not know how much hard labor the Questions Committee and the Attorney-General have put in: You can ask Mufti Mahmood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I want to explain to Haji Sahib that after this record is prepared--last night, we received the record at half past two- -only the first day's proceedings- unless we read it all......... -Now, Mr. Chairman: There lies a great difficulty: we have no automatic reporting machine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: and prepare our case accordingly. Mr. Chairman: Hakim Muhammad Sardar. 504 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 17th, 1974 - Mr. Mohammad Sardar Khan: I want to bring it to the notice of this honourable House that the main question, I should say, before the special committee or the Assembly is as to what is the status of a person who does not believe in the finality of the Prophethood. That question or that point is still untouched. Mr. Chairman: It will come; it will be taken up. It will come at its proper place. And Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari and you may not be knowing at what time the question is put. Yes, Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari. WRITTEN ANSWERS TO ORAL QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Mr. Speaker! I want to say that this series of giving written statements that he has started should not be encouraged, he has already given a fairly lengthy statement in his affidavit. And as far as possible, that is, without annoying him, offer, we should discourage him from giving written statements of things, because this will become an endless series, and now there is no need for it. The questions that the Attorney General asks, he gives specific answers to them. Absolutely, if there is such a necessary thing that it cannot be done without writing, then that is different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, he gave an answer. I told him not to file it, read it out. But my own view is that the more one speaks, the more contradiction there is. My own experience is that a person who is inconsistent the more he speaks, the more-strain patience —>huk―← he becomes inconsistent and contradictory. So, I would not stop him. Mr. Chairman: Yes, we will try that the less he gives in writing, the better it is; and the less he reads is also better. Now, the WRITTEN ANSWERS TO ORAL QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION 505 stage has come when only oral answers and brief answers are needed. Any honorable member who would like to say anything? Some Members: Nobody. Mr. Chairman: No, no; most welcome. Thank you very much. We shall meet tomorrow at 10.00 a.m. [The Special Committee of whole House adjourned to meet at ten of the Chock, in the morning, on Thursday, the 8th August, 1974.] PCPPL 109)(10) NA-21-2-2011-400. No. 04 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Thursday, the 8th August, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS Programme for sittings of the Special Committee 2. Message of Thanks from Senate and National Assembly of Turkey for support on Cyprus Issue Pages 510-511 511 (Continued) PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD 3. Steering Committee Meetings 4. 5. Adjournment of the Special Committee Foundation Stone-laying Ceremony of the Parliament House 511-512 512-514 514 h. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation. 514-546 7. Written Answers to Oral Questions in the Cross-examination. 546 8. Irrelevant Answers to Questions in the Cross-examination. 546-547 9. Supply of Quotations for asking Questions...... 548 (4). Time for Answering Questions ……... 548-549 11. Written Answers to Oral Questions in the Cross-examination........ 549 12. Questions Based on Documents not readily available 549-550 13. Admittance of visitors during sittings of the Special Committee 550 14. Method of Asking Questions during Cross-examination 551 15. Production of Books/Documents for Quotations cited in the Questions. 551-552 16. Repetition of Arguments by the Witness..... 552-553 17. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation 553-590 18. Quotations Unsupported by Original documents ...... 590-592 20. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation. 593-626 20. Interruptions by the Witness while a Question is put . 626-627 21. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation (Continued) - 627-664 22. Procedure and Strategy for further Cross-examination 664-668 No. 04 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Thursday, the 8th August, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1–21) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Thursday, August 8, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in Camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at 10:00 a.m., Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN 509 510 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8, 1974) PROGRAM FOR SITTINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE Mr. Chairman: Before the Delegation is called, I just want to tell the honorable members that we have finalized the program to some extent. The Assembly will sit up to the 13th because, on the 14th, we are laying the foundation stone of the National Assembly Building. So, it would have been very inconvenient for the members if, after the break on the 10th, the members would have gone; and if they had not come to attend the ceremony, which is mostly for the members of the National Assembly, it would have placed us in an awkward position. So, up to the 13th the Assembly will continue. We will finish. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: 14th? The invitation will be issued by the Speaker of the National Assembly? Mr. Chairman: No, it will be, the invitation will be by the Minister-in-Charge of CDA because they are piloting it. That was my proposal. They are building it, so the invitation should go from them. Indirectly, it is our function...... Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Indirectly, we are the hosts? Mr. Chairman: ...... and indirectly, we are the hosts. So, we will complete the examination of Mirza Nasir Ahmad and of Lahori party. If we complete it by the 10th, on the 11th is Sunday. On the 12th or 13th, we can meet as the National Assembly. So, we won't be missing those two days; we would utilize those two days; and then the break of a week or ten days can be after the 14th. Instead of the 10th to 20th, it will be from the 14th to the 21st or 22nd or 23rd. Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad: The Assembly and Special Committee both? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad: The Assembly and Special Committee both? STEERING COMMITTEE MEETINGS Mr. Chairman: The Special Committee and Assembly both, because both are running side by side. The preference is given to this work the Special Committee. And we will know from the Attorney-General as to how long, after today's sitting, we need to sit. After every day's work, we survey the work. And this might, we will again survey the work as to here long we will take. Then we will call the Lahori Party. And I think we will be able to finish by the end of this week. I think so. I think this program is agreed to by everyone? Members: Yes. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. MESSAGE OF THANKS FROM SENATE AND NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF TURKEY FOR SUPPORT ON CYPRUS ISSUE Mr. Chairman: I have received messages of thanks from the Chairman, from the President of Senate and from the Speaker of National Assembly of Turkey, and thanks to all the members. They have desired that their thanks may be conveyed to all the members of this National Assembly for their support, for their good wishes and........ Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Point of information, Sir. Mr. Chairman: and they have also reciprocated the same. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Thanks for what? Mr. Chairman: For the resolution, for the message we sent on the Cyprus issue. Yes, Mian Mahmud Ali Kasuri. STEERING COMMITTEE MEETINGS Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: What about the steering Committee, Sir? 512 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Yes? Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: What about the Steering Committee? Are you going to fix some date......... Mr. Chairman: What? Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: for the Steering Committee? Chaudhary Zahoor Elahi: You said yesterday that the Steering Committee meeting would be held this morning. Mr. Chairman: No, it was decided again last night at 9 o'clock that the Steering Committee meeting would not be held tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock because after 9 o'clock last night the entire House discussed all the matters. Chaudhary Zahoor Elahi: Is any Steering Committee meeting being held now or not? Mr. Chairman: Now we will do it today, right? After 1:30, when the afternoon break happens, or at night when it adjourns, than we survey the entire situation. After that, if there is a need, the Steering Committee can meet any time. There is no restriction. If you like, after this break for lunch, you can meet in the evening at any time. That is up to the House. Yes, Mian Mahmud Ali Kasuri. FOUNDATION STONE-LAYING CEREMONY OF THE PARLIAMENT HOUSE Mian Mahmud Ali Kasuri: Mr. Speaker, Sir,...... oh........ Mr. Chairman, Sir, I wanted to know if the President has been invited for the National Assembly's stone-laying, foundation-laying ceremony; and if he is going to be present, is he going to lay the foundation-stone? (Interruption) FOUNDATION STONE-LAYING CEREMONY OF THE PARLIAMENT HOUSE Mian Mahmud Ali Kasuri: Well! I want to ask. Has he been invited? And if he has been invited, is he going to lay the foundation-stone? Mr. Chairman: I have already told that the invitations have been sent by the Minister-in-Charge. Mian Mahmud Ali Kasuri: No, no, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sir, Mr. Chairman, Sir, that will have an important effect. If the Head of the State is in the town ...... and I am told that he is issuing invitations for the reception then we would like to know: is he going to be present at this function? And if he is going to be insulted like this, then some of us may not come. Mr. Chairman: No, no, these remarks should not be made. Mian Mahmud Ali Kasuri: No, no but I want to convey the sentiments of some of the members at least to you. And I am sure the whole House will like the ......... Mr. Chairman: No, I would .. Mian Mahmud Ali Kasuri: Head of the State to be respected to the utmost. Mr. Chairman: No. Now we may call them. Professor Manzoor Ahmed: Mr. President! I have a request. Mr. Chairman: No, Mian Sahib had been sitting quietly for two days, he had to say something. Yes. Mian Mahmud Ali Kasuri: Sir! You speak all day and you don't have any trouble. Mr. Chairman: Here I cannot speak for eight hours. Here lies the difficulty. 514 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8, 1974) Mr. Chairman: And one way or another, they have to make it a target. Yes, Professor Ghafoor Ahmed. ADJOURNMENT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: Sir! This adjournment that will take place after the 14th, will it be for ten days? Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: Huh? Mr. Chairman: A week or ten days. Mr. Chairman: That we will see after this or we will- Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: No, I meant since we are doing this work, therefore, there is no need for adjournment. Mian Mahmud Ali Qasuri: You will get paid daily. Mr. Chairman: That we will discuss in Mirpur, Mangla. They will discuss it. That is all at the convenience of the honourable members. If they like, we can discuss it in the chamber. Should we call them? Mr. Attorney-General, are you prepared? Yes, call them. (THE DELEGATION ENTERED THE CHAMBER) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney General of Pakistan): Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmed (Witness, Head of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya Rabwah): Some questions that you had written down might have been left out. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 515 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you may certainly read that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will read it. "Farisi ki Diction" is needed, Librarian! A question was asked about a revelation (Kashf) that is related to Hazrat Fatima. In this regard, I want to state that in the Ummah of Muhammad, the science of interpreting dreams has been codified, and among its leaders, Imam Jafar Sadiq and Ibn Sirin are famous Imams of this science. And as a science, it has been codified. And in the history of the Muslim Ummah, we see that revelations and dreams are interpreted, revelations are not objected to. To explain this point, I want to mention a few dreams that came before. Without it, the one about which the question was asked cannot be understood. The first example is of Imam Abu Hanifa's "Tazkirat al-Awliya," which is in Persian and has also been translated. In it, it is written that: Hazrat Imam Abu Hanifa saw in a dream one night that he was gathering the bones of the Prophet from the grave, leaving some and preferring others. And he woke up with this love. One of Ibn Sirin's companions asked, and he said that you will attain such a status in the knowledge of the Prophet and the protection of his Sunnah that you will become familiar with it, separating the correct from the incorrect. So, in such a terrifying dream, in his dream, in the vision, he sees that he is taking the bones of your holy body from the sacred shrine, preferring some and disliking others. This righteous man was overcome with trembling. He shivered, wondering what he had seen. And the companions of Ibn Sirin, who... 516 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [8th August 1974 were students of so and so, went to them and said that I had this dream. Was worried. So he said that there is nothing to worry about, the dream that you have seen, the vision seen, its interpretation is, and the interpretation is that you, in the tradition of the Prophet, have included wrong things , you will separate them correctly and become a means of establishing pure Sunnah of the Prophet. The second vision that I want to present here as an example is from "Guldasta Karamat". And it is the biography of Hazrat Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani, one of our famous elders, whose name does not need introduction. Syed Sheikh Abdul Qadir... From the beginning... Book It is written in "Jawahar al-Kalamah" that: Mr. Mehboob Subhani, Qutb Rabbani, Syed Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani said that One day we were in the world of childhood (meaning the age was great but saw ourselves as a in the form of a child) we were in the world of childhood in a dream of comfort. What Saw that the angels of heaven, by the command of God, picked us up and took us to Hazrat Aisha Siddiqa's took us to the service. She picked us up in her lap, hugged us to her chest and so much loved that milk filled her blessed breast and the tip of the breast in our mouth putting (putting the tip of the breast in our mouth) fed milk. In the meantime, Janab Rasool-e-Maab also graced the occasion and said: O Aisha, this is our true son, the apple of our eye Wajia the world and the hereafter of the close ones" This too, this revelation, this dream has also been interpreted. No objection to Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani Not done. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 517 The third example I want to give now is of a dream of Hazrat Maulana Syed Ahmed Barelvi. One day, Syed Sahib saw Hazrat Ali Karam Allah Wajhu and Janab Syeda-tun-Nisa Fatima-tuz-Zahra in a dream. That night, Hazrat Ali bathed him with his blessed hands, and Hazrat Fatima dressed him in a garment with her own hands. After these events, the perfections of the prophetic way began to manifest upon him with great splendor. (This is the interpretation of the dream.) And those eternal favors that were hidden and concealed became manifest, and divine guidance, without any intermediary, took charge of his condition. And here is another small example. Hazrat Maulvi Ashraf Ali Sahib Thanvi says: "We saw Hazrat Fatima in a dream. She embraced us, and we became well." (Ifadat-ul-Yaumiya, Vol. 2, as quoted in Deobandi Mazhab, page 156) And the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement saw a vision, saw a dream, like this, and made reference to it in his book "Nuzul-ul-Masih" on page 426, in the footnote, two lines of which have been taken into the question. And in it, you have written in the beginning that this vision, which is recorded in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, is being referred to, therefore we take Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya to see what vision is recorded in it. "This is the passage from Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya: One night, this humble one recited Durood Sharif so abundantly that his heart and soul became fragrant with it. That night, in a dream, I saw light in the form of pure water. 318 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 they bring the water skins to this humble one's house. And one of them said that these are the same blessings that you sent to Muhammad. And similarly, another strange story comes to mind that once I received a revelation, the meaning of which was that the people of the highest heavens are present, meaning that the divine will is in fervor for the revival of religion. But the highest heavens have not yet revealed the specific appointment of each person, so they are in disagreement. In the meantime, I saw in a dream that people were searching for a judge, and a person came before this humble one and indicated: هذا رجل يحب رسول الله Meaning, this is the man who loves the Messenger of Allah. And the meaning of this statement was that the greatest condition for this position is the love of the Messenger. So that is proven in this person. And similarly, in the aforementioned revelation, which is the order to send blessings upon the family of the Messenger, the secret in it is that the love of the Ahl al-Bayt also has a great influence in the benefit of divine lights. And whoever enters among the close ones of the Divine Presence finds them (the Ahl al-Bayt) to be radiant, pure and becomes their heir in all sciences and knowledge. In this place, a very clear revelation comes to mind, and that is that once after the Maghrib prayer, in a state of wakefulness, a slight absence resembling a slight intoxication, a strange world appeared in which first suddenly the sound of several people coming quickly was heard, like the sound of shoes in a state of rapid walking. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 519 And the sound of *mauza* comes. Then at the same time, five very handsome and pleasing and beautiful people appeared in front. Meaning the Prophet of God and Hazrat Ali, Hassan, Hussain, and Fatima al-Zahra (I misread) (Prophet of God, Hazrat Ali, Hassan, Hussain, and Fatima al-Zahra, may God be pleased with them all, and one of them, and it seems that Hazrat Fatima (RA) with great love and affection like a kind mother placed the head of this humble one on her lap. Then after that, a book was given to me about which it was said that it is the commentary of the Quran." So this is the *kashf* (vision) to which the descent of Christ is referring. Now it is obvious that it is *kashf*. Just like in other *kashf*, the saints of the *Ummah* saw visions about Hazrat Fatima al-Zahra, or like Hazrat Imam Abu Hanifa saw a very frightening vision, but it was interpreted. So as it is the unanimous decision of the *Ummah* of Muhammad that visions (*kashf*) are interpreted like dreams, they are not objected to, this *kashf* should also be interpreted. And its interpretation is clear within it because, as I just mentioned, in this *kashf* five beings came before you. And in their presence, including the Holy Prophet and everyone standing, a kind mother putting my head to her lap means that in *kashf* I saw myself as a very small child that your head only reaches up to the lap. And there are even clearer references of this type that I have left out. But the ones I mentioned are also very clear. So this is a *kashf* that should be interpreted, which the earlier ones did. And here also it is clear. Came and also I some... 520 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You mentioned dreams and visions, Mirza Sahib. What is the difference between the two? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A dream requires a state of sleep, meaning the vision appears during sleep. And a vision generally appears in a state of wakefulness or semi-wakefulness. For example, it is written in the biography of our Shahanshah of Iran that once, in his youth, he was strolling in his garden with his tutor. There, he was shown a visionary sight, and the Mahdi appeared before him. So, this is in his book, meaning... therefore, a dream is not... in a vision, it is generally a state of wakefulness, a state of semi-wakefulness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This revelation that comes to a prophet... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These are new questions starting again! I have a request. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I want to ask a question: can revelation come in a state of vision, in a state of dream, or does it come in a state of complete wakefulness? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In whatever state it is, the one who sees it describes how he saw it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning it can come in any state, this revelation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding revelation, I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because revelation only comes to prophets, doesn't it? This is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, revelation comes to the honeybee as well: "And your Lord revealed to the bee..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the revelation that comes to the prophets... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 521 I am. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am reciting a verse from the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am asking you for this clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Auha ila Umme Musa." Revelation was sent to the mother of Moses (peace be upon him). I mean, I have given an example, that's all. There is no need to give more examples. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the revelation that is sent to a prophet, does it not need any interpretation? Just like a dream needs interpretation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The revelation, in our Islamic parlance, in Islamic terminology, is interpreted, not construed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. That is, that difference has come, it is interpreted, not construed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the dream that occurs, the vision that occurs, is it construed? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is construed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there no need for interpretation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is no need for its interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the prophets, they have visions... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They also have visions, in great abundance, they are mentioned in the Hadith. They also have visions, dreams, and revelation. They possess the treasure of God. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the vision of the prophet, even that... 522 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 isn't it? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It also has an interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Interpretation or speculation? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, it is interpreted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there any difference between revelation and dream, as far as interpretation is concerned? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, there is no difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now you answer the other questions, Mirza Sahib! Then I will come to them. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: One question was asked whether the founder of the Ahmadiyya سلسلہ said this in his Persian poetry: "Where is Jesus to sit on my pulpit" These two things are necessary as an introduction. One is that the poets have created an idiom قطعہ بند, which means that two verses together express the correct meaning and the complete meaning. These are the (meanings) of قطعہ بند. This is قطعہ بند. In this, two verses are one منہم and "آن را" which is the next verse, these two together are fully expressing the meaning. In this if not, it is also written in another edition "قطعہ بند and before that, which are poems, are expressing its meaning, and they are: "I have come as the Promised One And adorned with ornaments Confined, I have come It is a pity if eyes do not see my sight My color is like wheat, and there is difference on the parting of my hair" CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 523 My master, who has come in the news, This is not a place of doubt, Separate me from the Messiah. Syed And in this, you have described that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) described the true Nazarene and my appearance and description. You were shown both images in revelation. And your glad tidings, Behold, I have come according to the glad tidings. My claim is only this, that the place that the glad tidings of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) have given me, according to those glad tidings, I claim that place. And the position that I have as a result of the prophecies of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), the Nazarene Messiah cannot claim it.) This that is, or that the crime is this first, Behold, I have come according to the glad tidings. (The position that I am claiming, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) has determined that for me.) When the Holy Prophet (PBUH) has determined that position not for the Nazarene Messiah, but for the Muhammadi Messiah, then the true Nazarene cannot claim it at all. And further, he gave this as his second argument: (The person whom Allah Almighty has given a place in Paradise) How can he come out of Paradise against the promise of Allah Almighty. 524 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 So this was the claim that this is my position and two arguments were given for it: First, that this position has been determined by Muhammad for the Messiah of Muhammadi, not for the Messiah of Maulvi. And secondly, as we understand that it is the teaching of Islam that whoever goes to Paradise once, he never comes back, so the second argument was given that he has gone to Paradise, how can he come back and claim that position. So that's what it means. This was another, that is just giving. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib. No, on this, so that I can ask one or two more questions... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Okay. Yes, yes, alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you mentioned here that: (Persian phrase) Does this refer to Jesus? Or to Isa, who is mentioned in the Holy Quran? There are two personalities in front of us at this time. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, there are no two personalities. That was all decided yesterday. Its I will answer what you are saying. It was decided yesterday that the knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth only the Holy Quran gives us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he has said some things about Jesus... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, the Gospel, the Bible, gives us the knowledge of Jesus. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes no, I mean, I am asking this Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I am telling you that, I have understood the question. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 525 It mentions Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him), about whom some people believe that the Messiah who was prophesied to this Ummah was the Mosaic Messiah. You are answering that. The Ummah of Muhammad was not given the glad tidings of the Mosaic Messiah, Isa (peace be upon him), rather, the glad tidings of an individual from within the Ummah were given, and his name was also kept "Messiah" and "Mahdi" too, and it was stated, and it was stated: La Mahdi Illa Isa These two designations, these are attributive, the names "Messiah" and "Mahdi" too, are of the same person. He does not want to get into this dispute, this debate. But here it is that some people think that the Messiah (peace be upon him), who is mentioned in the Holy Quran, is different from the one in the Gospels. The one who is in the Quran will come again, as the Messiah and Mahdi of this Ummah. So, the founder of the series, in response to this, said that the likeness of the Messiah (peace be upon him) that was shown to the Holy Prophet in revelation, you described it and our Hadith recorded it. It is different from the likeness in which you saw the coming Mahdi in revelation. And because of this, giving arguments back and forth, he concluded that the position that the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (peace be upon him), has designated for the Ahmadi Messiah, the Messiah (peace be upon him), who was the Nazarene Messiah, cannot claim that position. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This claim that Mirza Sahib! That the Messiah (peace be upon him) will come again and... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is the belief of some people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And Mirza Sahib's statement that that Messiah exists.... 526 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8th, 1974) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is indeed present. The Messiah of Moses has passed away and entered paradise, he will not return. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This one who is here, is he the present Messiah? Has he arrived? Do his attributes exist within him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, he possesses some traits, some characteristics of that Messiah as well. However, since the Messiah and the Mahdi are the same entity, therefore, the quality of being the Mahdi prevails upon him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here I only wanted to ask you that when they say: "Where is Jesus?" Does this mention of the present Messiah come into it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. "Where is Jesus?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does it refer to that Jesus who has passed away? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it refers to him. That Messiah of Moses who has passed away, how can he lay claim to the station that Muhammad (PBUH) has appointed for the Ahmadi Messiah, his spiritual son? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And for those who believe that he has not died and will come, in response to that, is this said, that when he comes: "Where are two Jesus's..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am giving the answer to that. That is the issue of the life of Jesus and the death of Jesus. So, if there are any questions on that, then answers will be given to them. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 527 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am asking, according to what Mirza Sahib is saying... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mirza Sahib states, in short, that the Messiah, who is mentioned in the Holy Quran as the Messiah of the Mosaic community, has passed away. And the Messiah who is to come in this community is another person, and there are prophecies of the Prophet, peace be upon him, for him. This is your belief. So, when the prophecies of the Prophet (PBUH) are for an individual of this community, according to their belief, then that Messiah who belongs to Moses, and for whom Muhammad (PBUH) did not give prophecies, cannot be his claimant. It's a very simple matter. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! About Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, you said yesterday that he is an "Ummi" prophet. The day before yesterday, this matter was also discussed. And the question was whether he is superior to the rest, superior to the other prophets or not? You said that he is superior to Hazrat Isa (Jesus). That's what's going on. In this regard, you said that he is superior. And the reasons you gave, when it comes in "Haqiqatul Wahi" that: "An 'Ummi' prophet is not imperfect." What does this mean? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: An "Ummi" prophet? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Imperfect. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Imperfect prophet? Which reference is it? Is it "Haqiqatul Wahi"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, it's "Izala-e-Auham". This is part two, page 407. The edition, I think, will be the same. 528 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Read it, you read it or I will read it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me read this out to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, you read. I couldn't find the book here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is, every apostle is sent to be obeyed and to be made an Imam. He is not sent for the purpose of being obedient and subservient to someone else. Yes, a Muhaddith who is among the Messengers is also a follower and a prophet in an incomplete way." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The discussion here is not about the follower prophet, here he is talking about the Muhaddith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he says further: That Muhaddith who is of an imperfect kind. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not every Muhaddith is like that, every prophet is a Muhaddith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And that which is here... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here it is a matter of Muhaddith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, it is a matter of Muhaddith: Yes, a Muhaddith who is among the Messengers... Ghulam Muhammad Sahib was also a Muhaddith? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He was a follower prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was a follower prophet and also a Muhaddith? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Hazrat Muhammad was also a Muhaddith. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 529 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I'm saying, that in this sense... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is, they both give, which is common, that every prophet is a Muhaddith, but every Muhaddith is not a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, that's what I'm saying. Here, then, they say: An Ummah (follower) is also a prophet, and a prophet in an incomplete way, the Ummah because it is openly obedient to the Sharia, the Messenger of Allah, and benefiting from the glory of the Prophethood, and a prophet because God Almighty deals with him as He does with the prophets. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Like the Prophets of Israel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can see from here: " But alas, the late Maulvi Sahib did not understand that the possessor of prophethood can never be an Ummah. And the person who is fully called the Messenger of Allah... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It's not in here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I'll send it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. (To a member of his delegation) Go, bring it. Did you get the book? (To the Attorney General) If this page is read from the beginning, then (the issue) is resolved, it resolves itself. Then on page number 425 he says, "This objection, which is answering the objections of the book, is from that. (Page 425) All the predecessors and successors have agreed on this matter that when Jesus descends, he will be included in the Ummah of Muhammad. And he says that Qastallani also... 530 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 8, 1974 It is written in the religions of the world that he will be a follower and a prophet, but alas, the late Maulvi Sahib could not understand that the possessor of complete prophethood can never be a follower." Here, "possessor of complete prophethood" means independent: Our belief is that before the Holy Prophet (PBUH), non-legislative prophets were born in the communities of legislative prophets, just as thousands of non-legislative prophets were born in the Children of Israel after the Sharia of Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him). They were from the Children of Israel, but as a result of their complete obedience to Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him), they did not receive the seal of prophethood. Rather, Allah Almighty, regardless of the fact that they were from the Children of Israel, sent them as prophets to reform mankind (no, rather it will be here that the Children of Israel) with His perfect wisdom. There is a difference in this, it is subtle and profound, I will only point it out. It is that every prophet who was born in the community of Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him), in the Children of Israel, reformed the Sharia of Hazrat Musa in some small or big matter. And this thing is clearly visible to us in the life of Hazrat Masih. Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) was in the community of Hazrat Musa. He was an Israelite prophet. But Hazrat Musa emphasized revenge, it is a part of his Sharia, to take revenge, because the circumstances of that time, weakness, and a cowardice that had arisen in the Children of Israel at that time, demanded that they be given a part of divine teaching, to take revenge. But in contrast, Hazrat Masih (peace be upon him), who was from the Mosaic community, when the feeling of revenge was wrong... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 531 Reached an extreme, they came and against the Sharia of Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him), Against his instructions, they taught that if someone slaps you on one cheek, then the other also turn forward. I am subject to the Mosaic law and he is the prophet of the Children of Israel, and those who have no Sharia, because a complete part of the Sharia that was given to Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him) was not repealed. And these subtle differences, how they made in their promises due to changing circumstances have told that they did not get prophethood as a result of perfect obedience to Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him), because perfect obedience is not seen. But after the advent of the Holy Prophet and after the revelation of the Great Quran, a perfect and complete guide was received. Now, this kind of independent prophet cannot be born in the Ummah of Muhammad who makes even a slight change in the instructions of the Holy Quran. Therefore, an Ummah prophet can come in the Ummah of Muhammad, a non-Sharia, A prophet of permanent status cannot come. This is the argument every day. The prophethood that Christ received in the house of Israel, he was not an Ummah prophet, but a prophet of permanent status, so he cannot come into this Ummah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I was submitting to you that Jesus Christ was not an Ummah prophet, because his Sharia had come into being. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Jesus Christ has no Sharia, no one believes, Because he was not a prophet with Sharia, he was not subject to the Sharia of Hazrat Musa, Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And besides him, besides Hazrat Musa, is there any other prophet with Sharia? 532 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mr. Nasir Ahmad: Not before them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, is Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, an Ummah prophet? Mr. Nasir Ahmad: Not an Ummah prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not a Sharia prophet either, so not an Ummah prophet? Mr. Nasir Ahmad: A non-Sharia, non-Ummah prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A non-Sharia, non-Ummah prophet? Mr. Nasir Ahmad: A non-Ummah prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What will be his status? Higher than an Ummah prophet? Mr. Nasir Ahmad: No, no, his status is from an Ummah prophet... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will be different? Mr. Nasir Ahmad: Will be separate, different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Now the question arises, an Ummah prophet who is... Mr. Nasir Ahmad: Here the discussion is not about the Ummah prophet... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, to them... Mr. Nasir Ahmad: No, these words that are... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that they were called deficient. Mr. Nasir Ahmad: Who? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Ummah prophet, will he be deficient compared to that prophet who has his own Sharia. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 533 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The word "imperfect" is not used here regarding Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not regarding him, because you are being asked about the follower. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not here, I will answer it briefly. I hope that God will grant me the ability that you may understand. Here, it is not about the prophet who is a follower, in this discussion, which is before us. Here, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement is talking about those Muhaddithin (scholars of Hadith) about whom the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "Like the prophets of Israel" That they were not prophets, but their status was like that of the prophets of Israel. Just wait, I will tell you here: "Yes, a Muhaddith who is among the Messengers is also a follower (now the mention of the Ummah of Muhammad has come) and is also a prophet in an imperfect way. He is a follower because he is completely obedient to the Sharia of the Messenger of Allah and receives blessings from the light of Prophethood. And a prophet because (this phrase is very important) and a prophet because God Almighty treats him like the prophets." God Almighty does not call him a prophet, nor does He make him a prophet, but He treats him like the prophets, as it is in the Hadith: "Like the prophets of Israel" That is, they will not be prophets, but they will be like prophets, they will be treated like prophets. And here is the same phrase. So, it mentions those Muhaddithin. 534 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [8th August, 1974 Whom the hadith of the Holy Prophet ﷺ indicates that in my Ummah there will be such close associates of mine and my followers who will be "Ulama of my Ummah like the prophets of Israel" A group of scholars of my Ummah will be like the prophets of Israel, a prophet will not be. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Naqis Nabi" (deficient prophet) that is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no "Ka Anbiya Bani Israel" (like the prophets of Israel) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this "Naqis Nabi" (deficient prophet) that has been used, is about them, he is not saying about himself? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is talking about the Muhaddithin. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, meaning he is saying about them that they will be deficient prophets? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Will be like the prophets of Israel, they will be treated like prophets, Allah Almighty will treat them like prophets, but they will not be prophets. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But this that is, "Naqis Nabi" (deficient prophet) I had this confusion that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is the deficiency. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I thought that perhaps other prophets have also passed in Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, no, like the prophets of Israel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning there is no other prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is no other prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Of a deficient type or of any category? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 535 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, this, the phrase "imperfect prophet" to the prophets of Israel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is, the word "imperfect" has been used, that's why I drew your attention to it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But going forward, it has been clarified. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is not the case? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is absolutely not the case. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The one who is an imperfect prophet is not a prophet, he is treated like prophets. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, not a prophet, they are treated like prophets. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza Sahib! When you mention Hazrat Maryam, does she also have two personalities or just one? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I thought the matter of two personalities was cleared up yesterday. So, I was wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the thing is, Mr. Mirza Sahib! that you have clarified that wherever Mirza Sahib has mentioned Jesus or Esa, that he is better than them, or in me there were shortcomings, they lied, God forbid. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not only regarding shortcomings... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, that is a reference to Jesus who is in the Bible or in the eyes of Christians. 536 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When you were giving a rebuttal, you said to the Christians, "The Lord Jesus Christ," this phrase should always be "The Lord Jesus Christ," otherwise, it's not clear... you don't know which Gospel it is. "The Lord Jesus Christ whom you present, your own books tell these stories about him. And that pure prophet of God, who came among the children of Israel, and his name was Jesus, son of Mary, the Holy Quran has praised him greatly, he was among the close ones to God, a prophet among the prophets." And when you brought up the topic of grandmothers, I said, "We don't find any mention of grandmothers in the Quran." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir. Christians believe that he is the son of God. So, the grandmothers become the mothers of God, don't they? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. That doesn't come in the Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I was asking you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that's obvious, there's no need to ask. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This, Mirza Sahib, in a book, "Kitab-ul-Bariyah," on pages 78-79, Mirza Sahib said: That Jesus who claimed divinity... Did the people tell him that he was God, or did he say it himself? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Among Christians, there are some Unitarian sects who believe in one God. But the vast majority of Christians, especially Catholicism, which was dominant at one time, and other sects were not able to rise because the Inquisition courts of the clergy... yes... they gave such severe punishments that... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 537 A sect could not be formed. Anyway, Catholicism and the different sects that were formed later, at that time also, most Christian sects believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but among them there are also sects, small in number, who are called Unitarian, that is, believers in one God, not believers in the Trinity. So they, that is, now this was your introduction, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When they said that "we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ..." ...they did not say that Christ denied it, but we believe. They extracted false arguments from the Gospel and the Bible and declared to the world that, according to these references in the Torah and the Gospel, we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I wanted this clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the answer has come, hasn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That Hazrat Isa (A.S.) himself did not say, Jesus himself did not do... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those who believe in him as the Lord Jesus Christ, they claim that Christ himself said it. Otherwise... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They claim that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is their claim, that he himself said it, otherwise they could not have made the announcement. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib never understood that he was God? Because here is a... 538 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, never understood. I can give you the answer to this, categorically. It is absolutely wrong and a fabrication that I ever understood that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This translation of his, "Kitab-ul-Bariyah," page 78. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Kitab-ul-Bariyah" which page? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page No. 78 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 78. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "I saw in a revelation that I am God. I am God myself." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Listen to this, sir, you will get the answer right here. I have said that you never claimed, nor understood yourself to be God. It doesn't say here that: "I understand myself to be God." It says: "I saw a revelation and as I have clarified, a revelation is interpreted. And many others have also seen revelations." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, that's what I'm saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Many others in the Muslim Ummah have also had revelations of being God. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's what I'm saying, that: "I saw in a revelation that I am God myself and believed that I am He." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In a revelation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In a revelation only. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 539 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And I have no intention, no thought, and no action of my own. And I have become like a porous vessel, or like a thing that another thing has embraced and completely hidden within itself, so that no trace of it remains. In the meantime, I saw that the Spirit of Allah had enveloped me and, taking over my body, had hidden me in His being, so that not a particle of me remained. And I saw my body, and my limbs became His limbs, and my eye His eye, and my ears His ears, and my tongue became His tongue. My Lord seized me, and seized me in such a way that I was completely absorbed in Him." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is correct, this is a vision. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A vision that prophets have, is it equal to a prophet, or...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This which is, if you would say, give permission, then I will read this, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why do you want permission from me? Mirza Sahib you Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, meaning it is more than what you have read. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, what I have read, I am saying about that, you have said it. I said the vision that a prophet has, the vision that is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The vision that a prophet has... 540 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not equal to revelation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The prophet's revelation is true. But it is a revelation and it needs to be interpreted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So if in a revelation he sees that he is God, then he is true? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Its interpretation is that he will become the instrument of God. This is its interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did he do this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He did it himself. Should I read it? That's why I said that if I read it, the answer will come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And further on he writes, you should read, that he created the heavens and the earth. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes, he absolutely saw it in a revelation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You explain this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a dream. Visions and revelations are not interpreted literally. I am telling you this. You, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, wrote this on page 544 of "Aina Kamalat-e-Islam": لا نعني بهذه الواقعته كما يؤنا في كتب اصحاب واحدة الوجود And its translation is: We do not mean by this revelation what the believers in Wahdat-ul-Wajood or Hulul mean. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION. 541 Rather, this revelation is completely in accordance with a Hadith of Bukhari in which the nearness of those who offer voluntary prayers is mentioned. The Hadith that has been referenced is this Hadith from Sahih Bukhari: "My servant continues to draw near to Me through voluntary deeds until I love him. When I love him, I become his ear with which he hears, his eye with which he sees, his hand with which he grasps, and his foot with which he walks." (325) This is a Hadith from Bukhari, and its meaning is: "A person who offers voluntary prayers continues to progress in nearness to Me until I begin to love him. When I love him, I become his ears with which he hears, his eyes with which he sees, his hands with which he grasps, and his feet with which he walks." You yourself, the founder of the order, have interpreted your revelation in this way, and the basis of your interpretation is the Prophetic Hadith, may God’s blessings be upon him. Then you say: "God said, 'Now I will create a new heaven and a new earth.' This means that the earth has died. That is, the hearts of the people of the earth have hardened, as if they have died, because God's face is hidden from them. And the previous heavenly signs have all become like stories. So God intended to create a new earth and a new heaven. What is the new heaven, and what is the new earth? The new earth is the pure hearts that God is preparing with His own hand, and who have manifested from God, and God will manifest from them. And the new heaven is the signs that are appearing through the hand of His servant and with His permission." 542 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 So you yourself have declared it an interpretable revelation, meaning a revelation that is interpreted. Similarly, there is a hadith in which the Holy Prophet ﷺ said that: "I saw my Lord in the realm of revelation in the form of a young man, and he had long hair and golden shoes on his feet." Now it is obvious that one who has no physical existence, seeing him in this form has no other meaning than that it should be interpreted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib wants the reference of the hadith that you have now mentioned. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you could give the reference of the hadith that you mentioned. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The reference of the hadith that I mentioned is: "Al-Yawaqit wal Jawahir," Volume 1, by reference to Tabarani, also Mauzuat Kabir, page 46 - three books are mentioned in these references. Similarly, Hazrat Shah Waliullah Sahib saw himself as God in revelation, in dreams. There are many more. In any case, this point is worth remembering that revelations are interpreted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I wanted another one of this kind from you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. It's good, let all the issues be resolved today. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 543 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The issues will never be resolved, Mr. Mirza! We only want some clarification on the issue at hand. Mr. Mirza Sahib, here is a reference from "Sirat-ul-Mahdi, page 82, part one: I wrote some orders regarding divine destiny and went to Allah to have them signed. He seated me next to him on the bed with great affection. At that moment, my condition was as if a son meets his father after many years. Meaning he is the son of God. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, like as if... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, meaning in the dream he thought that he... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, he did not understand at all. "Like as if" in Urdu does not mean that he became a son. It means a complete stranger goes to someone, comes to you, and you meet him with affection, talk to him. And he goes and says that the Attorney General treated me exactly like a father treats a son. Did he become your son? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, however it was. When he says that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Like as if" has explained the meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says in another place... this is taken from "Akhbar Al-Fazl." I don't know which reference of theirs it is. I will tell you that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, which one is this? 544 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: About Allah Almighty, they say, there is a reference, that: She is a very beautiful woman. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No sir, we are not aware of this. But I am very sorry, I apologize that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's why I definitely gave an explanation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we will check. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I say that if the thing does not exist, then I would not ask you a question about it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we are not aware of any. But I told you that neither verifiable nor refutable, until I check. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's right, isn't it, Mirza Sahib! I will draw your attention. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No no, I am not objecting, I am just talking that we will check and tell you about it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have not read this yet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay. Alright, leave it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have not read it yet. I am reading it out to you, then you will check. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You said "woman", that much indication is enough. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "She is a beautiful woman." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, Allah is a beautiful woman and He… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, is there any such thing in your knowledge? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Nowhere in my knowledge, nor in the knowledge of our elders is there any. We have to see who made this reference. If we could find that magazine during this time, Sir! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have, Sir, to look up one or two references. So, they will come out after the break. Mr. Chairman: Yes, after the break. The Delegation is permitted to withdraw; to report at 12:15. 12:15. The honorable members may kindly keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: The Special Committee is adjourned to meet at 12:15. [The Special Committee adjourned for a short break to reassemble at 12:15 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after short break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair]. Mr. Chairman: Yes, please speak. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: That barber yesterday... 546 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Please close this door. Yes, Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani? WRITTEN ANSWERS TO ORAL QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Yes, yesterday you probably decided that a definite answer should be taken from him first, and then if he wants to explain, he can, but there will be no written statement. He was reading a written statement today. Mr. Chairman: I have just spoken to the Attorney General in my chamber. Now he will start the second part. It will be exactly the same way as it was decided last night. Yes, Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sahib! IRRELEVANT ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Yes, the point is that yesterday it was also discussed that he writes an answer and reads it. And the question is about one thing, and he answers another. Now today the question was about Kashf (revelation). He gave four, five, six examples of dreams in comparison to Kashf, while they themselves admit that there is a difference between Kashf and dreams, that so-and-so saw a dream, so-and-so saw a dream, and he also saw. So, our crime becomes less than his crime. Similarly, examples of the dreams of five or six other people were given, there was no example of Kashf. So I say that he should answer what is asked. One thing is asked, and the answer comes in other matters. That's why I think... IRRELEVANT ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION 547 Mr. Chairman: Yes, that's right. I remarked on it yesterday as well. I observed it. A lot of irrelevant things are coming up. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood... A lot of time is wasted. Mr. Chairman: That's what I said yesterday, that's what I said. A lot of irrelevant things are coming up. There should be a question, then an answer. Then a brief explanation, if needed. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Explanation in the light of the Quran and Hadith, a brief explanation. Mr. Chairman: Yes, that's right, absolutely right. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: It's like you tell someone that he is a thief, and he says, "So-and-so was also a thief, so-and-so was also a thief, so-and-so was also a thief." Mr. Chairman: No, I just discussed it with the Attorney General in the chamber - I think now the procedure will be all right. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Yes, sir. Just a second. (Interruption) Mr. Muhammad Hanif Khan: He starts questioning. Mr. Chairman: No, he has his own method of putting it. One thing is that he should, the witness should be stopped that when a question is being put, then in between, until the question is complete, he should not speak in between. 548 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 SUPPLY OF QUOTATIONS FOR ASKING QUESTIONS Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will respectfully submit that explanations are different; you may or may not accept; but I request the honorable members not to supply me loose balls to score boundaries. Mr. Chairman: Yes, that I have also felt, JP Instead of quotations written with dog-eared pages or from pamphlets, they should have their own book. The best way to present references is that these books are available; pick up the book from there, mark from there that this is what you have written. Those questions that we have approved, many references are missing from them. Yes, Haji Moula Bakhsh Soomro, TIME FOR ANSWERING QUESTIONS Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, the explanation that he gives should not go beyond five or ten minutes; and for the reference when the books are available, he should not be given time that. "I will read my own book and come prepared tomorrow." It should not be put off to the next day, think today. And explanation should not go beyond five or ten minutes. Mr. Chairman: Haji Sahib, it varies from question to question. There are certain questions which should be replied to there and then; certain explanation should be there and then. But there are certain things which have to be searched out. Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: He reads it like a "Khutba" and takes half an hour; that should not be allowed. Mr. Chairman: No, no, that will not be. Should we call them? QUESTIONS BASED ON DOCUMENTS NOT READILY AVAILABLE Yes, Mr. Aziz Bhatti. Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: I would like to submit that where their answers are irrelevant, you should use your power to stop them. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari! WRITTEN ANSWERS TO ORAL QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: In any case, the way the Attorney General Sahib says it, I think that would be the right way to proceed. But one thing I mentioned yesterday was that they should not be given the opportunity to read written material too much. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This should not be done unless it is absolutely necessary, because then there is no benefit to cross-examination if the person brings books and magazines written in advance. QUESTIONS BASED ON DOCUMENTS NOT READILY AVAILABLE Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I would like to submit one more thing. That is, many questions have been given with reference to "Al-Fadl" or other newspapers. As far as possible, people are checking. But generally, "Al-Fadl" is not available. So, the questions could be something like: "Can you tell us if this is in Al-Fadl or not?" If they just say, "We can neither confirm nor deny it,"... 550 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 If you can deny this, it will come on our record, but that question should come, it is possible that we may be able to provide that paper on the second day, the third day. If we cannot provide it, then that question will be on record that it was asked with reference to "Al-Fadl". "Al-Fadl", from the beginning, we tried equally that they should send it to us. To the extent that when they said to specify certain copies, which numbers, that was also written and sent. But they did not send this. Now, obviously, no one has such old files of "Al-Fadl". Therefore, the questions based on this must come on record. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Mr. Chairman: Just a second. (Interruption) ADMITTANCE OF VISITORS DURING SITTINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE Mr. Chairman: I would request only one thing to the members. While coming to attend this secret session, they should not bring their friends, their relatives inside the Assembly building. It has caused us a lot of inconvenience. And the responsibility is of all of us collectively. There have been certain cases - reported - where people have even quarrelled with the security people while coming inside the gate. I think it should be discouraged and it should be stopped altogether for two or three days. Then we can have it. Yes, Maulana Ghulam Ghous Hazarvi. PRODUCTION OF BOOKS/DOCUMENTS FOR QUESTIONS CITED IN THE QUESTIONS Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Regarding the questions, I would like to submit that the question that is very important, which is necessary to be on record, should only ask whether Mr. Mirza or Mr. Mahmood said this or not? Giving them an unnecessary opportunity for speech and letting them preach for half an hour, we are not sitting here to listen to their speeches. Therefore, the style of questioning should be whether it is written or not, and do you agree with it, is it correct or not? That's all that's needed right now... Mr. Chairman: Okay. PRODUCTION OF BOOKS/DOCUMENTS FOR QUESTIONS CITED IN THE QUESTIONS Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: And the second thing is that those gentlemen who give questions, no question should be asked until its reference is available. All the questions that I have given, I have books, their references. And I know very well that the question that the Attorney General asked yesterday, I myself wrote in "Al-Badr" that: "Whoever wants to see Muhammad, Should see Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian. He has descended among us again, And is ahead in his glory." I myself saw it in "Al-Badr", it was presented before Mr. Mirza, he said "Jazak Allah", appreciated it and took it inside to the women's quarters. I saw this myself. I have the paper. 552 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 I did not give notice for it because it was not there. Until there is a paper or a pamphlet or a book. Mr. Chairman: Okay, sir. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: ... Until then, the notice of the question should not be given. Mr. Chairman: Absolutely right. I am going to call them now. Mr. Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri REPETITION OF ARGUMENTS BY THE WITNESS Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Mr. Chairman, for the last two, three days, what I am noticing is that the witness is repeating his statement again and again; and not only repeating his oral statement, but sometimes he quotes same books again and again. We are not have to be taught what Ahmadi faction is; and he is not have to preach to us. So, I think, being the Chairman of this Committee, you should see to it that the repetition does not take place. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Sir, it has disadvantages; it has also got some advantages because, from the point of view of the prosecutor also, you have to repeat the question sometimes; and the more they repeat an answer, the more contradictions are established. So, now that we have displayed so much patience, for about a days and a half. I think, we should bear with this, because you would appreciate that the witness is trying to be evasive and, therefore, the Attorney-General has had to ask a question time and again. So, let us bear with it for about a day or a day and a half. We are now coming to the close. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, I was asking you a question that when Mirza Sahib mentions Hazrat Maryam, is it the same person or two? You said that the personalities were all decided yesterday. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the decision was made yesterday. They are personalities. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, in this regard, I want clarification that when he mentions, are they the Maryam who is mentioned in the Gospels or the Maryam who is the mother of Hazrat Isa (Jesus)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in his books and speeches has also mentioned the holy woman who is remembered in the Holy Quran by the name of Maryam, and in some places, he has also mentioned that Maryam to whom Christians attribute to Lord Jesus. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning in his view then there are two personalities, like Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have given my answer. 554 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have the same answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You can draw your own conclusion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The answer you have about Jesus, is it the same here as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is the same here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here it is mentioned somewhere: "And Mary has such a status that she refrained from marriage for a long time. Then, due to the great insistence of the elders of the community, she got married due to pregnancy." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is this? Where is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It's on page 37 of Kashti-e-Nooh, after skipping the first three or four lines, in my edition. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The founder of the Ahmadiyya movement has written here: "Because all these elders are from the womb of Mary Batool, and Mary has such a status that she refrained from marriage for a long time, then due to the great insistence of the elders of the community, she got married due to pregnancy. Although people object to why she got married during pregnancy, contrary to the teachings of the Torah, and why she broke the promise of being a virgin, and why the foundation of polygamy was laid. That is, despite Joseph the Carpenter's first wife being alive, why did Mary agree to marry Joseph the Carpenter? But I say that all these were compulsions that came about, in this situation those people were worthy of pity, not worthy of objection." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 555 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So this that is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a reference to "Kashti-e-Nooh." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this indication that is, is it towards that Hazrat Maryam who is mentioned in the Holy Quran? Or is it towards the one whom the Christians mention? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the first line of it, the first line of the page: "That person who says to me that I do not respect the Messiah, son of Mary, but the Messiah is the Messiah, I respect even his four brothers." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking this, sir, this indication that is, this writing that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In this writing, there is mention of that Hazrat Maryam who is mentioned in the Holy Quran. But the references, in response to some objections, are given from the Holy Quran. No, not from the Holy Quran, from the Bible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning this mention of Hazrat Maryam, is it that Hazrat Maryam who is mentioned in the Holy Quran, and what is said about her... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The replies to the objections have been given from the Bible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did she get married to Joseph under compulsion due to the elders' saying? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Taken from Pascal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is taken from the Gospel, and they are justifying it. 556 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mr. Speaker: I say that these were all compulsions that arose. In this case, those people were pitiable. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They were pitiable, not objectionable. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is justifying or explaining about them in the Bible? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Explaining the situation, justifying the act. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Mr. Mirza, I am coming to another subject for a while. Some references are not being found. Mr. Mirza's time had some other scholars and elders. God knows if there was any controversy or opposition with them, or what the matter was. You will tell the context, but did Mr. Mirza call Hazrat Pir Meher Ali Shah Sahib Golra Sharif (late) cursed? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where? What is the reference for this? Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: There is a poem in Arabic in it: (I said to it, O land of Golra Sharif, a letter has come to me for you, from a liar who was forging and deceiving. That was the book of the wicked and like scorpions sting. So I said, woe to you! O land of Golra! You have become cursed because of a cursed one, therefore you will fall into destruction.) This ode is an appendix "Nuzool-e-Eijaz", this is an ode, page 75. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 557 Mr. Chairman: The librarian may hand over the book to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, let me read two or four more so that you can see them together. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did Mirza Sahib write about Maulana Rashid Ahmad Gangohi as "blind, devil, demon, misguided, wretched of the worst, one of the mischief-makers?" This is Anjam Atham, page 252. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we will check. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You check this. Mr. Chairman: I think, Mr. Attorney-General, let it be put to the witness one by one. The books....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, these three quotations are alike. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Let him answer whether it is or not. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Sahib! Please sit down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am coming to all three, I will read all three and then I will ask them. Mr. Chairman: The books, all the three books may be handed over to the witness and he should say it is there or it is not there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did Mirza Sahib, naming Maulvi Saadullah, write "son of an adulterous woman" and "foul-mouthed, vile, ominous, accursed, devil, syphilitic sperm?" This is "Anjam Atham," pages 281-282. So, check these three. And... 558 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: The Librarian may please hand over the books to the witness. Weren't you (Mufti Sahib) reading a book? Where is that? You (Mufti Sahib) were reading a book; please give that. Haven't given it? Now read this. And the rest of the books may also be given. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This reference from "Izala Auham" regarding "Nuzool-e-Maseeh" from Qasida "Zameema Nuzool ul Masih," one out of three, is here. Okay. But we will give its answer later. And the other one, "Anjam-e-Atham" (to a member of his delegation), which page is it? This reference from "Anjam-e-Atham," page 252, yes, this is also correct. It is a reference. Mr. Chairman: Tell us the page of the third one. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, 281-282. Yes, the reference from 281-282 is also present. But the answer can be given after looking at the books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These books are available here. Mr. Chairman: Next question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, these are here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you want to give some clarification on this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I want to give its clarification, after looking at the references in these books, not at this moment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can't you briefly tell what the reason was? Then you can tell in detail later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will give it all together. It will be a waste of time unnecessarily. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 559 S...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mr. Yani Bakhtiar, did he say something against them, or...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There are two kinds of answers to that, I will give both, God willing. One is, in response to him or in what circumstances he was said that. And secondly, didn't someone else say more than that to them? Because the position of the next person should also be known. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That he said something about them, and they said it in response? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Or what was their status in the eyes of other sects. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, whatever the Explanation is, is this it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, somewhere there is Explanation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In reply or in retaliation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, without giving any answer, I cannot draw a conclusion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean are you saying that someone said something about them and this came in response? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am saying this after looking at it. These are the things that come to mind, theoretically, philosophically, but until the books are checked, seen, one cannot reach any correct conclusion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The reference that is in front of you, the book that is in front of you, from which I have quite taken this, there is no explanation in it. Will you look somewhere else besides this? 560 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, even in this, if I read the entire book, it will take a long time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This book is in front of you, like you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How many pages does it have? Anjam Atham, it will take me two days to read it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in this passage, ahead or... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if there is mention of them elsewhere, until I am fully satisfied, how can I give an answer? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, for the time being, you cannot answer this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I can answer this later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean briefly, what will be your grounds? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That on what grounds... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning, until I study it, the books, how can I tell the grounds for the answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said, did they say something in their praise and you are answering, or were they silent on their own behalf, and they said about them? There can be two things. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It will be known after looking at the books, which thing it is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You didn't know about this before? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 561 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I have read the books, I knew beforehand, but this point... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I didn't say any point of view. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, the way it is presented in the form of an objection... Our group's debaters, those who debate, they would know all the arguments. But I am not a debater for my group. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! Can there never be any objection to abuses either? You say that in the form of an objection, this is not a form of love. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This also needs to be seen. Doesn't this need to be seen? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say that we always talk with love, we convince people with love, and I am seeing this. That's why I asked this question. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Then I will tell you this, it should also be found out whether there are abuses or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's possible. Because if you say that "son of an adulterous woman" has two meanings, "bad speaker" has two meanings, "wicked" has two meanings, "ominous" has two meanings, one good and one bad, then that's a different matter. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, here it's Arabic, right? This is the translation of Arabic, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, it's the translation of Arabic. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: So, an Arabic word can have I don't know how many meanings, not two, I don't know, maybe ten meanings. 562 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [8th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am saying, does the son of an adulterous woman have a different meaning in Arabic? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The son of an adulterous woman has not been said in Arabic. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this translation taken from here or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the translation, there is a literal translation, that has been done here. But when we have to do our research, we will have to decide by keeping in mind all those meanings of this word which are used differently in Arabic idioms, that in which meaning the Arabic word has been used in this context. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Like "Satan". Will there be any difference in its meaning in Arabic, Urdu, and Persian, in your opinion? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The word "Satan", it definitely has five or ten meanings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no difference between the two languages in this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, there is a difference absolutely. In the Arabic language, it can also be used in that sense, which may not have been used in any other language in that particular sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In which there will also be a form of praise or...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am not naming praise and that. That will happen when it happens. How can one discuss this discussion before the discussion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, you please explain it. There is a reference, Mr. Mirza's. "Whoever opposes me is a Christian, a Jew, a polytheist, and destined for hell." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 563 Is there anything like that in your knowledge? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if I see it, I can tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no such thing in your knowledge at the moment... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, its correct words can only be known by looking at it. Tell me the reference, maybe the book is here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The reference is also Nuzool-e-Masih page 4 and that mention is also written ahead "Mentioned in Tadhkirah page 227. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, let's see it, maybe it will come out here. There is no such statement on Nuzool-e-Masih, page 4. Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney-General, the witness says it is not there on page 4. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: On page 4, which I have... Mr. Chatter: No, is that a reference to "Tadhkirah"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, this is "Nuzool-e-Masih". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have said "Nuzool-e-Masih" page 4, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. And Tadhkirah page 227. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have "Nuzool-e-Masih". There is no such statement on page 4 of it. If you read a sentence or two of the statement, then I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Who is my opponent..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I got it. Mr. Chairman: Got it, hold on. 564 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did you find it, sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it is not too much trouble, please read out the words, so we can compare. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can compare it, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "And whoever opposes me..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And those who opposed me were named Christians, Jews, and polytheists." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, this statement is not saying that "I named them." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is referring to something else. This statement here indicates that, in your opinion, somewhere they were named Christians and polytheists. Okay, it's here, but they will answer that later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I only want clarification here regarding what Mirza Sahib says: "Whoever opposes me..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "And whoever opposes me, his name..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's fine, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, where does it say this...? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: By "opponent," does he only mean Christians, Jews, Ansar? Or does it also include those opponents who do not believe in him, who do not accept him as a prophet? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 565 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's what I said, that this phrase exists here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, no, besides that, I am asking what else... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, I am saying the same thing, what the answer to that is. I will see... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then in your answer to my question, which is "opponent" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What do you mean by "opponent?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By "opponent" do you mean only non-Muslims or Muslims as well? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Non-Ahmadi. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only non-Muslims or are Muslims also included in this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, among Muslims, you say that you are, and we are not? There are categories of this type and that type. Categories come up. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I absolutely do not say that, sir. I am only saying the phrase that should come on record. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, on record... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Does it include non-Muslims or Muslims as well? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. And also that whoever is an opponent of Mirza Sahib becomes like a Christian, Jew, polytheist. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You mean you want the answer to that? 566 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I want clarification on this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, they want its answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want an answer because they fall into the same category. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Okay, I understand. The answer to this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, in this way, sir, about those who are opponents, Mirza Sahib has said that: "The enemies have become pigs of our deserts, and their women have become worse than bitches." Please note this here as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What is its reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Lujjat-un-Noor, page 53." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I can give a brief answer to this now, but a detailed one later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So if you could give it, Mirza Sahib! There are many questions, time will be saved, which you can answer now. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: These are not Muslims who are opponents, but Christians who are attacking Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did he say this sometime? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: There is mention of Christians before and after this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Don't you remember whether he said this sometime before the claim of prophethood or after? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 567 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This, the book that is, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, you have many books, you gave a citation yesterday of 1872 that Mirza Sahib himself wrote against Christians in 1872 at that time. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The subject of this entire book is against Christians, and they have been mentioned very openly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, so I want to ask the same thing... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: ...Before and after, regardless of when it was written, when it indicates that the subject matter pertains to Christians, then how can the date contradict that subject matter? Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: Mr. Chairman! I will read out the Arabic reference, it says: "Those are books that every Muslim looks at with an eye of affection and love, and benefits from its knowledge, and accepts me, and affirms my calling except for the offspring of prostitutes upon whose hearts Allah has set a seal, so they do not accept." Mr. Chairman: Please translate it as well and read out the reference too. Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: The translation is: "These are the books that every Muslim looks at with an eye of love and affection, and benefits from its knowledge, and accepts me, and affirms my calling. But those who are the offspring of prostitutes, upon whose hearts Allah has set a seal, they do not accept me." Mr. Chairman: Reference? Give the reference as well. 568 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 8th, 1974 Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: This is Ayina Kamalat, page 547. Mr. Chairman: This book may also be given to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is... Sir, this is a question because Mirza Sahib said whatever was referred to in the previous question was -with reference to Christians; he will give a detailed reply later. Now I ask about the Muslims; what Mirza Sahib said: "All Muslims have accepted me and confirmed my invitation, but the offspring of prostitutes and fornicators did not accept me." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Where is this reference from? Yes, just now page 547. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I had taken it out for the reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, that's right. All these allegations of cursing etcetera, read them all out, then we will give a collective answer to it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am getting some references right now, and I am looking for some that I am not getting. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I mean regarding how many there is objection to. This is a stale question, it has been going on for eight or ten years, so we will answer it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if you can answer them now, look now, here: "All Muslims have accepted me and confirmed my invitation." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Send me this book. Mr. Chairman: The book has arrived. Look at the book and tell us whether it is there or not. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 569 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The term "zurriyat-ul-baghaya" is used in Arabic in the sense that... Mr. Chairman: No. This is an explanation. Now, first, the witness has to say whether the writing exists in the book or not. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, these words are here. Mr. Chairman: Now the explanation can come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And we will give this explanation later. Okay, correct. Mr. Chairman: The witness is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can't you give it now? Mirza Sahib! There shouldn't be any difficult problem for you in this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, to discuss "zurriyat-ul-baghaya", it is necessary to refer to Arabic dictionaries, it is also necessary to refer to idioms. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have been saying since yesterday, who is a Muslim? You say that yesterday Muslims accepted me and confirmed my invitation, but the offspring of prostitutes and adulterers... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Zurriyat-ul-baghaya" did not accept, but "zurriyat-ul-baghaya" did not accept. The meaning of "zurriyat-ul-baghaya" is not prostitutes, the meaning of "zurriyat-ul-baghaya" is not the offspring of prostitutes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is the meaning of the offspring of adulterers and the offspring of prostitutes that you understand? 570 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8th, 1974) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: After giving all the references, I will, God willing, convince you that its meanings are being taken incorrectly. And the other objections, that he hurled abuses, used harsh words, all that will be resolved at once. The issue should be resolved, not whether abuses were hurled or not. If they were, then why, what is their answer? It will all be resolved at once. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then there is another reference, sir, I will look into that as well. But note down what I have noted down here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Note it down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And whoever is not convinced of our victory, it will be clearly understood that he is eager to become a bastard." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is its reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anwar-ul-Islam page 30. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will look into this as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page may be verified, page 30. Mr. Chairman: If you have the book, then hand over the book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And on this, I will request you that what is this: What did Mirza Sahib mean by "our victory"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Peace be upon him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning something that will be established, or has been established? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Will be. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 571 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you believe it will happen in the future, and you told him beforehand that he is eager to become "illegitimate." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When Islam becomes so dominant in the future. You have written elsewhere: Islam will prevail throughout the world. And humanity will gather under the banner of Muhammad ﷺ. And the condition will be such that those who do not believe in the Holy Prophet ﷺ will be like sweepers and tanners." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Look at the eagerness to become illegitimate, Mirza Sahib! Maybe this statement is wrong in my possession, that's why I cannot say. But I am saying this about what is written, they say that: Regarding And whoever does not believe in our victory, it will be clearly understood Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But it has not been announced yet that we have won. The future Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I wanted to ask, I wanted clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is about the future. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I wanted to ask, I wanted clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is about the future. Of today Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is about the future. And also this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not about this generation. 572 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...that he is fond of becoming a bastard." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These will all come together in the answer, they will come very openly. We will write everything that this was said and this is the answer. If they give us this entire list then we... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, until we verify the references that we have ourselves... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, give whatever you want to give. Its answer is very clear and very bright and correct, that which is, will all come in front. What is written is written. The reason it was written should come in front of the world. Page 27 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's why we want clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Otherwise why would we bother you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, clarification is very important. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, this is what Mirza Sahib is saying in Tabligh-e-Risalat, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which one? Which book is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 9, Page 27: "Whoever does not follow you and does not enter into your allegiance and remains your opponent, he will be a hellish person who disobeys God and the Messenger." MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: Where is this reference from? MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: It is from "Tabligh-e-Risalat," Volume Nine. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: Yes, we will verify or refute it after looking at it. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Yes, you can look at it now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The book may be handed over to the witness. Yes, is this writing admitted as already produced? Does the witness accept the writing that has been given, or not? MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: This...yes, that phrase is in it. There are others before and after it as well. So, we will answer. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Now, yesterday, Mirza Sahib! There is still some need for further clarification on what you were saying. Therefore, I am repeating it anyway: Can a person who does not believe in God and the Prophet... can a person who does not believe in God and the Prophet remain in the Muslim community? MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: A person who? MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: It is very clear, isn't it? MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: Yes, yes, absolutely clear. A person who believes in Allah and Muhammad (PBUH) is a Muslim. And a person who does not believe in Allah and Muhammad (PBUH) is not a Muslim. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: If someone says that if they believe in Allah and the Prophet, they are Muslim, and if they don't believe, they are not Muslim... MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: I said these words, so what difference does it make? 574 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, the one who is not a Muslim, is he out of the circle of the community? As you are defining, not only from the Islamic community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, I am saying that he is not a Muslim at all. I think this was my very clear sentence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the one who does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whosoever, I will go further than before, whosoever believes in Allah and Muhammad ﷺ, is a Muslim. And those who later and the commandments that are in the Holy Quran, seven hundred, and the sayings of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, this is to be done, that is not to be done, the one who does not believe in them, is a sinner, for which the word "disbelief" has also been used in the Hadith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have clarified that, there is no confusion in there - the only question was that the one who does not believe in Allah and the Prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The one who does not believe in Allah and the Prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is he out of the Islamic community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is out of the circle of Islam, he is not a Muslim. Then I asked you a question that the one who does not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib to be a prophet, he... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The one who does not believe in the Prophet, if you have said only one sentence, if we analyze it, it becomes two sentences. The one who does not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib to be a prophet and along with that does not believe in Allah and the Prophet, he is out of Islam. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 575 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Along with that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, along with that, if he doesn't believe in Allah and the Messenger, he is out of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But that is not it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I said the next sentence twice. And secondly, the one who does not believe in Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib but believes in Allah and the Messenger is not out of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, the one who believes in Allah and the Messenger, accepts them, and does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib as a prophet, can he still remain a Muslim? He will be a sinner? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he is not a non-Muslim, he will be a sinner, he will be. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But we cannot say that the one who does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib as a prophet, does not believe in Allah and the Messenger either? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When we say this generally, then you are correct. It is generally like that. But in this, the "completion of argument" comes into play. That is further differentiated. The one who does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib as a prophet, despite understanding that it is the command of God and the Messenger to believe in a prophet, his status is different. And the one who does not believe in the prophet and the argument has not been completed upon him, his status is different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here what Mirza Sahib is saying: "Besides this, the one who does not believe in me, does not believe in God and the Messenger either. Because a prophecy of God and the Messenger exists regarding me." 576 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8th, 1974) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The person who, knowing that there is a prophecy of God and the Messenger about you, does not believe, he does not believe in God and the Messenger. That is what I said. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is he outside the circle of Islam and the Muslim community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. After the completion of the argument, one who adopts a rebellious path. And he says that, "Yes, I know, the argument has been completed upon me that the command of God and the Messenger is to believe, but I do not believe." He is outside the circle of Islam, he does not believe in God and the Messenger. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And we have already mentioned the "completion of the argument" to you yesterday. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is done, that which is the completion of the argument in the sight of God. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And its decision is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It will be on the Day of Judgment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It will be on the Day of Judgment. If someone tells me in this world, "Well! This is the completion of the argument." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you do not become entitled to any accountability or punishment in this world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, for a minute. If the argument is completed, after that Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Even after that, you do not become so in this world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...he becomes an infidel and outside the Muslim community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: After the completion of the argument, the person who adopts a rebellious means and declares that there is a command of God and the Messenger but I do not accept it, then he has denied the command of God and the Messenger. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 577 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If someone says that this is not an order from God and the Prophet, this is your opinion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I just mentioned that, sir, that is the second type. That's why I said: then two more types are formed. One who says that it is the command of God and the Prophet but I do not accept it, then he is out of the circle of Islam, out of Islam. The one who says that I do not understand that it is the command of God and the Prophet, he is not out of Islam, he is not completely out of the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now there is a need for further clarification on "completion of the argument" as well, because I troubled you twice to clarify it, and the position is not clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which aspect remained incomplete and should be clear? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is why I am telling you. You say that despite the completion of the argument, there are two types of it. One is Abdul Hakeem Sahib who came to take the oath of allegiance, and later he became an apostate. This is your point of view. They say that "I do not accept". One is that category that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is not the category, no, there are not two in these two categories. The two categories that were formed in our discussion, one is the person who declares: و سيكنت انفسهم Yesterday I recited a verse from the Holy Quran. و سيكنت انفسهم 218 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [8th August, 1974 That the Holy Quran says that there are people in the world whose hearts believe, but they deny it. This has been stated by the Holy Quran... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is absolutely correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So those who are such people, they come under this completion of argument, after which the deniers of God and the Messenger, due to rebellion, are out of Islam. This is one type. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The second type is those who do not say "we have understood" and say that we have not understood correctly or incorrectly. Regardless of whether they have understood or not, they say that "we have not understood" and they deny. Those people are not the ones upon whom the argument has been completed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's what I want. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if it has been hidden, then Allah knows best. It is not for me or you to pass judgment on it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I want to clarify the meaning of "completion of argument," that if the argument is completed, is it necessary for them to be convinced as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is the meaning of "completion of argument." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at this, this is the dictionary that I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: وجاهد و بها و سيكنت انفسهم. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 579 are. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The completion of the argument". "... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Which dictionary is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Noor-ul-Lughat". And it comes up the same in the other one as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, which dictionary is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Noor-ul-Lughat, Volume One." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This isn't a standard dictionary. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Bring a standard dictionary, and we'll look at it from that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, it should be here. The standard dictionary is either "Mufradat Raghib," for explaining the words of the Holy Quran, or our major dictionaries. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The completion of the argument, you see, sir, I will read and tell it to you here." Even if the dictionary has no value, you may make a sale of it: "The completion of the argument means to fulfill the condition of validity. The final instance of explaining something and settling a matter." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Even its Urdu isn't correct, how can the dictionary be correct? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Is there any mistake in 'the completion of the argument'?" Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, the entire phrase is not correct Urdu. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The completion of the argument..." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What does "the completion of the argument" mean? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It completes the argument. 580 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [8th August 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then it seems that some English phrase has been taken and translated. That is what I said, its Urdu is not correct. It seems as if an English phrase has been taken and translated. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: To explain something and settle a matter for the last time. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The phrase "manjad" tells that this dictionary is not standard. "Aqrab" is, "Asal Mufradat Raghib" is, "Lisan-ul-Arab" is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You bring any dictionary, which meaning you are giving... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will tell from a dictionary. That is what I am saying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That the meaning of "I تمام حجت" is not just to explain, properly, until the end, but that he should be convinced. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, let me analyze this phrase. The meaning of " اتمام حجت" cannot be "the one explaining is sure that he has explained." This is ridiculous. The meaning of " اتمام حجت" is that "the one who has been explained is satisfied that this is correct". To say that "the meaning of " اتمام حجت" is that "the one explaining understands that yes, I have explained" is foolish. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My meaning is that which impression is given. This is ridiculous. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why, Mirza Sahib! I am drawing your attention... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 581 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right, thank you very much. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is what the dictionary meaning implies. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The real, correct dictionary, this dictionary is mixed... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This dictionary will be wrong. These are three or four dictionaries. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But we will present the correct one to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to these dictionaries, "Itmam-e-Hujjat" means, according to the dictionary, that they tried their best to explain. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tried to "Explain". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I said that from his side, it means that the one who is explaining is satisfied. "Itmam-e-Hujjat" means that the one who has been explained to is satisfied. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So this effort, is it of the explainer or the one who is understanding? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Of the one who is understanding, of the one who is understanding. "Itmam-e-Hujjat" is the condition of the one who is understanding. It is not of the one who is explaining. Meaning, a person gives an argument and says that I have done "Itmam-e-Hujjat". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mirza Sahib! You are explaining to me. So in "Itmam-e-Hujjat" there is your effort as well as mine. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the result depends on your effort. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the result depends on my effort whether I have understood or not understood. You are not the judge of whether I have understood or not understood. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am not the judge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You cannot say that "he is a Kafir." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is what I said before, that a person who himself declares, does not deny, The one who explains understands that I have explained, I have completed the argument. The one who understands, understands that the argument has not been completed on me, then no one has the right to pass judgment on him, because the Holy Prophet (PBUH) has not said in the Hadith: (Al-Shaqat Qalbah) How did you know, after looking at his circumstances and mind, that he did not understand the truth? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, the second meaning of completion of argument that you are taking is It is not just to convince, but to also say that "yes, I am convinced?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, completion of argument is. I said this before. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why I am taking clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I said that the person who says that the argument has been completed on me, I know that the reality is that this is the command of God Almighty, but still does not believe. Yesterday you asked: "Are there such people in the world?" I submitted "that I myself am a witness." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said: there would be rare ones. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 583 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, rare. And then I presented the verse of the Holy Quran. The Holy Quran says that there are such people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, according to this interpretation, these words that have come, because I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, according to this interpretation, wherever "Itmam-e-Hujjat" comes, in our literature, it will mean that he has also been convinced, if he is of this world, he has also been convinced and has also declared it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has also declared it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if he is convinced and does not declare it, then his matter is with Allah Almighty. This is not our job. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And these references that are coming, that: ..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All these references mean this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, apart from this, the other references in which they say that "he is an infidel" and "outside the circle of Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All, all of these... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...come under this category? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are of this category. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It doesn't apply to the others? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. But regarding others, in our hadiths and in the idiom of Islam, "sin" has been frequently expressed as "disbelief." JU7 GL NƏSLİNDLY UP PAKISTAN 18th August. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir, I am saying that in your writings, speeches, whatever such mention comes, I am referring to that. Mr. Chairman: You want to continue, Mr. Attorney-General? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just five minutes more, Sir. Mr. Chairman: I see. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You see, Mr. Chairman, on this very point I had read out to you yesterday, and the day before: "Every person who believes in Moses but not in Jesus, believes in Jesus but not in Muhammad, believes in Muhammad but not in the Promised Messiah, is not only an infidel but a confirmed infidel and is outside the pale of Islam." They only mean those who, after the completion of the argument... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, after the completion of the argument. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I wanted to clarify this. Then it goes on to say: Since we do not believe in Mirza Sahib, and non-Ahmadis do not believe in you as a prophet, is the denial of any prophet also infidelity according to the teachings of the Holy Quran? Non-Ahmadis are also infidels. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This also means "do not believe". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, does the term "non-Ahmadi" not mean all of them? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 585 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not all of them. It applies to those non-Ahmadis upon whom the argument has been exhausted in this sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And regarding what he further stated: "The Promised Messiah has deemed permissible only that treatment of non-Ahmadis as the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) did with Christians." Does this also fall under the same category? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is a reference to be checked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have already recited it yesterday and the day before. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have already recited it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the reference for this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is on page 129 of "Review of Religions" - I have recited it in detail. I will read the whole thing, and then you will remember. I have read the first line. Mirza Sahib! I will read it in detail. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am very ashamed. It was written, but I did not go and check it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will recite it in detail; then you will remember. Yesterday, I recited to you that: "The Promised Messiah has deemed permissible only that treatment of non-Ahmadis as the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) did with Christians. Our prayers have been separated from non-Ahmadis." 586 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That reminded me. I was apologizing for the fact that they looted but didn't check. I am very ashamed. I will do the same thing now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. That's why I am saying that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they should check. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please check. Then the final thing, Mr. Sahib! Excuse me, I am repeating myself... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I would have to repeat myself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, by all means, by all means. I understand that what Mirza Bashir ud din Mahmud Sahib has already said, there is some confusion in what you are saying. The opposition is not clear to me, I did not understand, and that is why I am saying it. They say that: "Whereas it is absolutely clear that salvation is not possible without believing in the Promised Messiah." Now look, there is another category which is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Salvation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One minute, let me explain. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After the completion of the argument, a man became an infidel and went into another category, and that's it. But a man who has not even come into this category: "Whereas it is absolutely clear that salvation is not possible without believing in the Promised Messiah, then why is there an unnecessary effort to prove non-Ahmadis as Muslims." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 587 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing about this has already been discussed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was saying that you are still trying to prove them as non-Ahmadis. They say, don't try to prove it. On that you need further explanation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say: "Despite this, non-Ahmadis, who do not believe in them, fall into the category of Muslims." They say: "They don't." Don't try. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They fall into this category of Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they are not saying this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at this with full patience. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the reference, let's take a look. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: See from the reference that they are saying very clearly, don't even try. "Non-Ahmadis, who do not believe in them..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question here is, can I clarify something? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it will happen now. Here is the debate about saved and unsaved Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that it is a big issue, you said that day. I want to ask this. 588 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, regarding that, may I speak for another ten to fifteen minutes about salvation? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You may say that tomorrow, or even tonight. The question is only this, which I want to explain to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I understand. Your confusion is that what I said, and what Hazrat Khalifa Sani said before me, there is no connection between them. I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I see this contradiction, in this sense. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I understand this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say that, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Why do you try to..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...those who do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib a prophet..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "...why do you try to make them Muslim?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "They are not Muslims, they cannot be saved. Those who will not believe in the future cannot be saved. This is not a matter of completion of the argument, that the argument has been completed and they deny it. No. Whoever does not believe, in the future..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Who would not accept him there is no hope for him. Do not try to make him a muslim. He is not." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The meaning of "salvation" is not "No hope for them"... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "They cannot be saved." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This must be corrected. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: “…………… Unless they accept him” Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, until we understand the meaning of salvation... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, that's what I understood. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Don't translate it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to what I understood, I have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Mr. Chairman: Is that all? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Chairman: The delegation is permitted to leave until 6:00 o'clock. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Anything which the honorable members may want to bring to the notice? Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Mr. Speaker! Mr. Chairman: Yes, Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari! The rest of the members may please keep sitting. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari Sahib has to give a speech. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: No, I don't have to give a speech, sir! Mr. Chairman: No, you... (Interruption) Please sit down. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: This is with Maulana Hazarvi Sahib... (Interruption) 590 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: (To the members) Please sit down, please sit down. QUOTATIONS UNSUPPORTED BY ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Maulana Hazarvi Sahib has a reference, very important, and he has presented it. I request you that reference should be obtained from him. Mr. Chairman: That is not the point. This is your... Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: The reference is that Mirza Ji has mentioned the name of a dirty place. He told me. But he doesn't have the reference. I want to submit one thing... Mr. Chairman: No need, I have rejected it. Their... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: No, there is no need to reply. I have their objection and the question is rejected. Absolutely niled out. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: I would like to say about today's debate that today Mirza Sahib has been badly roasted because the completion of the argument, the meaning of which remains incomplete. remains, which the world cannot accept at all. "The completion of argument is that the speaker completes the argument. In the Holy Quran Mr. Chairman: Maulana! This is a matter of debate again. It will be a matter of procedure. This is your Whatever speech is being given, time is being cut from it. (Interruption) QUOTATIONS UNSUPPORTED BY ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS 591 Sir Chairman, no, no, this thing, this Attorney General… Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: For the sake of my brothers, I would like to say a little. Mr. Chairman: No, there is no need, you will do it later. We will do everything later. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: My point is that the completion of the argument is in the Quran: And as bearers of good news and as warners, so that mankind should have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Mr. Chairman: Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro to please resume his seat; and Mr. Qusuri also. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: The completion of the argument takes place, the prophets come only to complete the argument. And by not believing in them, all people are excluded from the Muslim community. Mr. Chairman: Yes, okay, alright. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: And this that: And their souls were convinced thereof. This has nothing to do with the completion of the argument. There are people whose hearts bear witness, but they do not believe, as it is in the Quran about the People of the Book: They recognize him as they recognize their own children. Mr. Chairman: Okay, do this speech later. Any honorable member who would like to say something? Chaudhary Zahoor Elahi Sahib! You. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: In any case, I would like to say one thing, for the sake of the Attorney General, that this is not the completion of the argument for the seventy crore Muslims of that time that they should believe in Mirza. 592 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Shahzada Saeed-ur-Rasheed Abbasi! You do something. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: No, no, you speak, whoever wants to. Mian Mahmood Ali Qasuri! Will you say something? Mian Mahmood Ali Qasuri: No, Sir! You yourself are saying. Mr. Chairman: The House is adjourned to meet at 6:00 p.m. [The Special Committee adjourned for Lunch Break to re-assemble at 6:00 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after Lunch Break. Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Are we ready? They may be called. Hazrat Maulana Ataullah Sahib! Please speak. He has called them just now. They may enter at any time. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Have you called them? Mr. Chairman: Yes, I have called them, after asking you. Yes, Now they are coming. Yes, the Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Are you giving some answers for which you noted the references? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, some are ready. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whatever there are, please state them first. Then I will ask further. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: One was regarding the terms "Zill" and "Burooz," yes. So should I read it out if you like? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Principally, if you can say it well, then if you read it out, there will be an objection that you are reading out the answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Mostly, these are excerpts. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You may certainly read out the excerpts. You can explain the rest of the content. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, the rest is fine. Mr. Chairman: If the excerpts could be filed along. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, we will read them out. Then we will note those references afterward. Then we can file them if desired. Mr. Chairman: It would save us a lot of time. If someone's answer is brief, then read it out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, whatever excerpt he reads, it will be explained, right? Therefore, reading it is necessary; understanding the reference is also necessary. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And all friends should listen too. This was the question of "Zill" and "Buruz" which you mentioned as "Zilli" and "Buruzi." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That was filed yesterday by you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That was not filed yesterday. Mr. Chairman: It didn't happen, it was returned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, please file it. Mr. Chairman: Please file it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the definition. Mr. Chairman: This is the definition. Definition may be filed. And that will be read as part of the evidence. Part of the examination. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There was an old one, a file of the members of the Majlis Intekhabat Khilafat. Is this also to be filed? Mr. Chairman: File this too. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: File as a document, Sir. Mr. Chairman: Yes, file as a document. With date. And start the Annexure. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here's another one... With date. Mr. Chairman: Annexure in continuation of it, A, B, C, D, And with the date. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 595 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This was a question about January 26, 1916, which was noted, which was left yesterday evening, so this question has also been asked this morning that it is written in "Al Fazl" of January 26 that the word "Ummat" is about Ahmadis. This is its answer. I will read this reference first. A reference was read here from "Al Fazl" January 26, 1916. The complete reference in this regard is this, and he said: "That the first Messiah was only a Messiah, so his Ummah went astray and the Mosaic order came to an end. If I were only a Messiah, it would have been the same. But I am also the Mahdi and a manifestation of Muhammad. Therefore, my Ummah will have two parts. One, those who will adopt the color of Christianity and be destroyed. The other, those who will adopt the color of Mahdaviat, and they will remain until the Day of Judgment." This is the statement of Hazrat Khalifatul Awwal. The one who is writing is not from the Khulafa, another person is writing. Further, in the next part of the same paragraph, it is written: Our Jamaat will have two parties. Our Jamaat, not Ummat. So a writer there wrote "Ummat". Besides, the meaning of "Ummat" in Arabic is also Jamaat. Therefore: (Arabic) Allah Almighty says in the Holy Quran to the Muslim Ummah that: "There should be an Ummah among you who calls towards good." 596 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8, 1974 Hazrat Maulana Abul Ala Maududi Sahib has translated it as: "Ummat" means: There should certainly be some people among you... People. "Ummat" here means people. Hazrat Shah Waliullah Muhaddith Dehlavi's translation is: "Bayad keh bashad az shuma gurd-e" He has translated "Ummat" as "group." Maulana Waheed Al-Ashrafi's translation is: "Har aaina bayad keh bashad az shuma giroh-e" He has also translated it as "group." So, in this article in "Al-Fazl," the word "Ummat" that is written, the word "Jamaat" (group) is written at the end of the paragraph. And the Holy Quran has also used Ummat to mean "group," of people, when people gather together, it has also been used for that. Therefore, that "Ummat" has not been used in a sense that could lead to any misunderstanding. Regarding Itmam-e-Hujjat (the completion of proof), a dictionary was also ordered this morning. Regarding this "Itmam-e-Hujjat," the meanings of "Itmam-e-Hujjat" that the Holy Quran and the dictionary have given are: In the dictionary "Mufradat Raghib," which is an authentic dictionary of the Arabic words of the Holy Quran, I am now telling the meaning of "Jahidoo biha wa se yakunta anfusahum." The meaning of "Jahidoo" is "Nafi ma fil qalbi asbat wa asbat ma fil qalbi nafsa" that what is in the heart... what is in the heart, meaning that a person understands that the matter is like this... of that... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 597 to deny, and to affirm something that is not in the heart. This relates to the heart, as stated in "Mufradat Raghib." Similarly, in Surah Al-An'am: (Arabic). Tilka. Here, Allah Almighty states that We granted Abraham argument against his people. This argument is mentioned elsewhere as follows: When the people came to Hazrat Abraham after the idols were broken and argued with him, he said, "Ask these idols, whom you consider gods, ask them themselves." And in this way, they were ashamed and acknowledged their defeat. It is in Surah Al-Anbiya: (Arabic). Qaloo. This is within the same context. The founder of the Ahmadiyya movement also writes in his book the meaning that I have tried to explain, you write that meaning: "I say that because I am the Promised Messiah and God has generally shown signs from heaven for me, therefore, anyone upon whom proof has been completed in the sight of God regarding my being the Promised Messiah and who has been informed of my claim will be accountable." And after that you write, this in continuation, another topic came in between, I am leaving that: S96 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8, 1974 And the knowledge of the completion of the argument rests solely with God Almighty. Yes, reason demands this Because people are created with different abilities and different understandings, therefore, the completion of the argument Will not be in just one style. So those who, due to their practical ability, can easily understand And recognize God's proofs, signs, and the merits of religion, And if they deny God's Messenger, then they will be at the highest level of disbelief. And those who do not possess that level of understanding and knowledge, but in the eyes of God The argument has been completed upon them according to their understanding. God Will hold them accountable for denying the Messenger. But this is less Than the first deniers. In any case, it is not our job To inquire about the condition of each individual regarding someone's disbelief and the completion of the argument upon them. This is the job of the Knower of the Unseen. We can only say that in the eyes of God, upon whom the argument has been completed And who has become a denier in the eyes of God, will be worthy of accountability. And it is not our job to go above that. This is Haqeeqatul Wahi, pages 184-185. Completion of argument according to dictionary: "Guidance." This is in the dictionary of vocabulary. That: Argument is called such clear guidance that it makes the path of truth absolutely clear and fulfills the correctness of one of the two contradictory things. As Allah Almighty says: (Arabic) All... That the perfect argument is only for Allah. Also said that there should be no argument for the people against you except for the wrongdoers. In this, Allah Almighty did not consider the argument of the wrongdoers as an argument. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 599 The meaning of "Sahih" in "Lisan al-Arab," which is another major Arabic dictionary, is as follows: The meaning of "Hujjat" is "Burhan." It has also been said that "Hujjat" is that by which the enemy is defeated, meaning he admits that he has been defeated, meaning what you are saying is correct. Imam al-Azhari says: "Hujjat" is that proof and method by which victory and dominance are achieved at the time of dispute. And this is "Muhit al-Hayl." Lughat-ul-Quran by Pervez: "Hujjat: Argument" It is in "Muhit" that: A proof is called a proof because it makes the matter clear and obvious, and "Hujjat" is called "Hujjat" because it achieves victory over the opposing party. That is, he declares that what you are saying is correct, and he announces his defeat. And we generally say "Itmam-e-Hujjat," right? The meaning of "Itmam" in "Mufradat" is: 600 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 (Arabic) Ahmed is there in Itmam-e-Hujjat, another source has been used, whose verb is Aimma and its meaning is: To bring the argument to its end, "Itmam" means to bring love to its end, "Itmam" means to bring the argument to its end so that after that thing there is no need for anything else for its truth. Yes, there is one, Kalimat-ul-Fasl. The one for which I apologized. One thing is that the question that was asked here, the name of the author was written wrong in it. This is Hazrat Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad Sahib, who is the second Caliph of our Jamaat, is not his book. The question that was asked stated that its writer is from the Ahmadiyya Jamaat second Caliph. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is his compilation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is not his compilation. That is what I am saying. He didn't write it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Approximately it was collected for him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, not that either. Its writer is Mirza Bashir Ahmad. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad, who is the second Caliph of the Jamaat, is not him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said that separately. That is Mirza Sahib! I said Sahibzada Bashir Ahmed, I said that is his saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This "Kalimat-ul-Fasl"... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 601 : Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, another reference that I gave... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that is another reference. I am saying it right here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have no confusion in this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am just telling you that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is possible. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am just telling you that this is not the book of Khalifatul Masih II, it is the book of Hazrat Mirza Bashir Ahmad Sahib. I am just clarifying, that's all. Here you write this, this is the whole subject of it, from where this paragraph started, from where the reference was taken, from the paragraph from where it starts, from there I am starting: At this place, it should be remembered that disbelief is of two types. One is apparent disbelief and one is hidden disbelief. This is actually a philosophical discussion on another writing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Another category has come up. " Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is another category that does not come up in our first discussion. One is apparent disbelief and one is hidden disbelief. Apparent disbelief is when a person openly denies a prophet, meaning says that, for example, I do not believe in Hazrat Musa, or I do not believe in Hazrat Isa. This is open denial as it happens in the world, so that is apparent disbelief: And does not accept him as appointed for the guidance of God's creation, just as the Jews denied Jesus of Nazareth. 602 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Now here too, I am going to say this from my side that while writing, one doesn't go into these intricacies everywhere. "In the way that the Jews denied Christ the Nazarene," even though the Jews did not deny Christ the Nazarene. Those among the Jews who were deniers were called "Jews." And those who accepted, those who believed from among the Jews, became Christians, they accepted him. My point is that if we go into these kinds of intricacies, then there won't be a single page of any book that doesn't become objectionable: "In the way that the Jews denied Christ the Nazarene, or in the way that the Ansar did not believe the Holy Prophet to be from God." Even though thousands at that time and later also continued to believe: And the inner infidelity is that outwardly, one insists on believing in a prophet and considers him to be appointed by Allah Almighty, but in reality, a person is very far from the teachings of that prophet. Now that sinful disbelief has come, that someone... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a hypocrite then. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, sin, a hypocrite is different. A hypocrite is one who inwardly acknowledges that this prophet is not true, and declares that "I believe." But this is that act, for example, someone becomes lazy in prayer or someone becomes lazy in fasting. So, a sinner practically becomes distant from the teachings in his practical life. So, in that discussion, that reference came which has been presented here. And this which is the first, its initial rise, it explains that what is meant here is not what, by mistake, by misunderstanding, because of which an objection has been raised here. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 603 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Firstly, regarding what you stated, that the meaning of "Ummah" includes a group, a party, a group, or any class of people. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: People. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, people. So, our difficulty has somewhat increased because when you say that the Muhammadi Ummah is a Muhammadi group, party, those are the same as Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Islamic nation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the Islamic nation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Muhammadi Ummah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That large circle that you mentioned, in which... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In which there are sinners as well... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And infidels too. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, and those of middle standing too. All are there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those infidels are excluded, but those who commit a little bit of infidelity are also included, but Muslims in every condition? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Muslims in every condition. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are Muslims. So, now, this circle of Islam, would that also be a group? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's why I took another example the other day. I had a suspicion that perhaps... (604 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Islamic Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now I find the "Circle of Islam" a larger group and... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that Circle of Islam is a smaller group. I'll tell you why. When we... when I, excuse me, when I made this request, it was based on the saying "Mufradat Raghib" which is the dictionary of the Holy Quran. While explaining the meaning of "Islam," he said that Islam is of two types. One Islam is faith... above faith. And one Islam is below faith or دون الاسلام. Islam is of two types. So, the circle of Islam, whatever your questions and my answers are here, has come about because our discussion... it would be a great injustice on my part because I am here as a witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no sir, this is such an issue. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anyway, the thing that came up in the question and answer, we said regarding مافوق الایمان, I said that the circle of Islam is that thing which is above faith. So that is the inner degree, the smaller circle of the circle of Islam, that is not large. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can one remain a Muslim even after being outside of that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the larger degree is the circle of "Ummat-e-Islamia". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir, I understood that, I understood that. Now I feel the need for some further clarification on Itmam-e-Hujjat. You said that this is something that relates to the heart. There is one thing in the heart, but a person denies it. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATE Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, whether the proof has been completed or not, regarding a person who himself does not admit that the proof has been completed upon him, it is related to the heart, and it is not for man to judge it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I am coming to another thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay! Excuse me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you said yesterday as well, and this morning as well, that the meaning of completion of proof is that he understands a thing, the whole argument is before him, and he denies it. He understands, is convinced, and denies it. Category. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One, one category. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One aspect, yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, one type is that he has understood and says, "I have understood." He declares: "I have understood, but I will not accept." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, "I deny it." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "We hear and disobey," the Holy Quran says. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this, is this in the category of one who cannot be a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, cannot remain so. You yourself have denied it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, so you said that it is necessary for there to be a declaration with it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From his side. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, from his side. Now, further definition of this declaration that Suppose a scholar listens to the words of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib and he is convinced. I am giving an example, he is convinced, by Mirza Sahib's From the point of view, and he declares that no, Mirza Sahib is not a true prophet, then this declaration... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, then one part remains, one part remains. He declares that I have understood that he is true, but I do not believe." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, exactly like that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that one part remained. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then it is simple. Then there is no complication. Then I will ask, is this the category that After the completion of the argument, whoever does not believe in Mirza Sahib and does not believe in the Messenger of God, he is an infidel equal to not believing in God and the Messenger, after the completion of the argument, is this how you defined it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who himself said that the argument has been completed on me and I do not believe? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "I do not believe." Is he in this category, who says, is he absolutely an infidel, a hundred percent infidel? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he is an infidel, outside the realm of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, he is outside the realm of Islam, because he is? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is, he is outside of Islam. Non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is no longer a Muslim? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 607 What? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say he is a hundred percent infidel? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: You can call him a non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is no longer a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, according to your estimate, how many people have made such an announcement? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: There is no question of estimation in this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, what will be the knowledge? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "According to their own knowledge." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am talking about knowledge, according to knowledge. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This is not in my knowledge, this is in my knowledge, I myself have heard that "Even if Allah comes and says that the founder of the series is a child, even then we will not believe." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's another thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, yes, that is with "if." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is with "if". And at the same time, they do not say that I am convinced. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In my knowledge, at this time in my knowledge and in my memory. Combine, bracket, knowledge and memory, no man. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No one. So does that mean that, according to the conclusion we have reached at the moment, there is no infidel at this time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In that sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, in that respect? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In that respect, outside the Muslim community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In other words, there is no one who is not a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no one who claims to be a Muslim and is not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We concede this. We are talking about those who believe in Allah and the Messenger. I am not talking about Christians and Jews. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they believe. Yes, no, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Our discussion is about those who believe in Allah and the Messenger. After that, the question comes to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, whether we consider him a prophet or not. The question is about him at the moment. At this time, in your opinion, is there even one among those Muslims whom you would say is a hundred percent, a hundred percent infidel? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, who is a non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who is a matter of knowledge. Does not declare. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, knowledge. Is a non-Muslim. There is no one whom I would call a non-Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there none at all, or is it not known? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 609 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Not to my knowledge or memory. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now the second category comes, those who do not believe in Mirza Sahib without completion of the argument. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, there are three categories. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am coming to that, which we have discussed... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...from which I have been able to reach a conclusion. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, okay, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then wherever you think I have made a mistake, you will point it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One who does not believe in Mirza Sahib without completion of the argument, but believes in God and the Prophet, is an infidel to some extent, but not outside the circle of Islam... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, that Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And is outside the circle of Islam but not outside the Muslim community? ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, absolutely not outside the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But is outside the circle of Islam? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Leave the circle of Islam if it creates confusion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. 610 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is up to you. He is a disbeliever, a sinner. If this sentence is formed, it will be clearer. He is a disbeliever and a sinner. But... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will say it like this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But not outside the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will say it like this: First, the category of those who believe in God and the Prophet, but despite the completion of the argument... in the sense that you have interpreted it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, then if you write that despite the completion of the argument, he declares... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have said, "as you have interpreted it." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It has been recorded as you have interpreted it. That is why I say that if he declares it, then he is absolutely a disbeliever, not a Muslim, who does not believe in Mirza Sahib. Then after that, there are people who believe in Allah and the Prophet, but they do not believe in Mirza Sahib without completion of the argument, meaning it has not happened to them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning they say that it has not happened to us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "It has not happened to us." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Even if it has happened, but they say so. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 6} Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They didn't announce it, that's what it means, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Obviously, obviously. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They didn't announce it. So they are infidels. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are sinful infidels. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But from the Muslim community... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are sinful infidels, but not excluded from the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Excluded from the circle of Islam, the community... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, they are not excluded from the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, understand that they are not 100% infidels, as I said before. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are sinful infidels, meaning "infidel" in the sense of infidel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Another category comes up. I don't want to mention it separately, I'm coming to it. Now, this third category that is. These two categories So far, we have in front of us. One is the one who is completely an infidel, who, despite the completion of the argument, are denying, openly denying, there is no question of doubt in their position. Then there is no doubt that these are in the Muslim community, they are Muslims, call them sinners... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Call them fifty (50) percent, call them twenty-five percent infidel, but they are Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are in the Muslim community, and they cannot be called non-Muslims. - 612 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So these two positions are clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And a third category is those who, after Itmam-i-Hujjat (Consummation of Evidence) or without it, believe in God and the Prophet and have faith in Mirza Sahib, they are 100% Muslims and 100% non-Kafir, I place them in this category, whether you consider them Ahmadi or... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, one category, you see, these three categories, we have no doubt about any of them. This discussion is ongoing. And one category is of sinners, who are in all of them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are in every category, will be. Yahya: Will be in every. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they are in every category... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are also in Kafirs (disbelievers). Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are also in Ahmadis, also in Deobandis. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those who are without Itmam-i-Hujjat, they are present in all, therefore, they should be left out in between. Now, Mirza Sahib! The question is that everyone's position is clear. One is those who are Kafirs, 100% Kafirs, and there is no doubt in their being Kafir. They do not believe in Allah and the Prophet, nor in Mirza Sahib, despite Itmam-i-Hujjat. One is those who... 613 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Those who do not believe in Mirza Sahib after the completion of Hujjat (proof), are also infidels, there is no doubt in that either. Then the rest are Muslims. We have made categories of them. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, infidelity... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So when Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad Sahib says that: "Why try to prove non-Ahmadis as Muslims unnecessarily?" Which category is this? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The same one that you have created. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The position is absolutely clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The position is absolutely clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This is the one of infidelity and sin. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, that Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "You called them infidels and sinners, didn't you?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I submitted that my question is not a category, They are infidels, there is no doubt about it. The second category, they are Muslims, there is no doubt about it. What sin would he have committed, so they say, "Why do you try to prove them as Muslims?" Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "How do you call those who are sinners innocent?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, sinners are still Muslims, their being Muslim does not end. We have conceded that they are Muslims, they are included in the Millat-e-Muhammadi (community of Muhammad). Sinners. 614 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8th, 1974) There are sinners among Ahmadis too, and among disbelievers too, I am not talking about them. They also say that we are trying to prove them as Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, how can you try to prove "sinful disbelievers" as innocent? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am not. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I couldn't clarify what I meant. Now I submitted that for a disbeliever, there is no question of becoming a Muslim, nor does anyone try to prove it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Leave that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is left. Now that category of disbelievers, who, despite the completion of the argument (Itmam-i-Hujjat), do not believe in Mirza Sahib, is just like those who do not believe in God and the Messenger, there is no question about them either, who is trying to prove them as Muslims? Now there remain two more categories, about whose being Muslims there is no doubt... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, they cannot be said to be outside the Muslim community, not even for a second. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it cannot be said. So when they say, why are they unnecessarily trying to prove them as Muslims, meaning they are not, and they are proving it, who is being mentioned here? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 615 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my opinion, there is no contradiction in this. I am stating my opinion, right? In my opinion, it means that the category about which we have said that they are not outside the Muslim community, they cannot be called non-Muslims, but they are disbelievers and sinners. So, he is saying here, that those who are sinners, why are you trying to prove them innocent? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, they were sinners? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This, which reference is this? Maybe the context is different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is "Kalimatul Fasl," page 148. Yesterday, I told you: Now that it is absolutely clear that salvation is not possible without believing in the Promised Messiah, then why are unnecessary efforts being made to prove non-Ahmadis as Muslims? I say this, I submit. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, this has come out. I am reading it. This is page 148, you said "Kalimatul Fasl" 148? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think so, here it is... is it 148 or 128, the print is like that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: On page 148... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I told you this yesterday. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it didn't come out on 148, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I gave you a reference yesterday. Where is it, Bhatti Sahib! 616 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We'll see, we'll see. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I told you this yesterday. You also made comments. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I didn't make comments there. We didn't even have this book at that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it's possible you didn't verify it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, didn't verify it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, maybe you didn't. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I'll read this whole page. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, I'm saying this thing that is here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's not here, I can't see it. Let's read it carefully. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now that the issue is completely clear that salvation is not possible without believing in the Promised Messiah, then why unnecessarily try to prove non-Ahmadis to be Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "try to..." This is not here, these sentences are not on page 148. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We'll take it out, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if we can find out now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am sorry, Sir, it was page 128-129. That which is Naji, the print is like that. This will come on 129, maybe started from 128. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DI LEGAL 617 Kalimat-ul-Fasl Review of Religions In this, now that it is absolutely clear that without believing in the Promised Messiah Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes sir, it is here, 129. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "cannot happen, then why unnecessarily try to prove non-Ahmadis to be Muslims." My now Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This this this. It is absolutely clear that here the issue is of salvation, and salvation is also related to sin. So here is the question: Why is an attempt being made to prove the sinner innocent? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I am interpreting it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I could not explain the question fully, excuse me, sinners are also among Ahmadis, here it is about non-Ahmadis: "Why is there an attempt to make non-Ahmadis Muslims, to prove it?" So in this context, please explain to them... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes sir, I am answering it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you will not say that there are no sinners among Ahmadis. Therefore, the sinner is not relevant here. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I understand. I will clarify now. 618 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8th, 1974 Sinners are among Ahmadis, and among Bahais, they are in everyone, may Allah forgive. Some are less sinful, some are more sinful. That is why we have been instructed to seek forgiveness at all times. But there is a difference between sins. One sin is gossiping, one sin is backbiting, one sin is stealing. The "not believing" that is here, that is a sin. And one who enters Ahmadiyyat can be involved in a thousand sins. But he is not involved in this sin that he did not deny. Therefore, in the topic under discussion here, Ahmadi cannot even be included, because the thing is, this sin, the person who commits this sin, that he, whom he should have believed, due to his ignorance, did not believe, and in this way, to some extent, he became a sinner, why is an effort being made to prove him innocent? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not Mirza Sahib! I submit that the effort to prove him a Muslim, means that there is no room for it. A Muslim is a sinner. That which I submitted the other day: "Ultimately, I am a sinner, not an infidel." Here it is being said that they are infidels, why are you trying to prove them as Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning if instead it was "why is an effort being made to prove this sinful infidel innocent". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, if that was the case then I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... would be even harsher, harsher than the current situation. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 619 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar No, it is clearly written now that: "Do not try to prove non-Ahmadis to be Muslims because there is no chance of their salvation because they are impure." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then the issue of salvation has come up. Leave it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am saying that what is here, comes in very clear words, and I was submitting the same thing that the category is clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that part has become clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that for the same reason, that now after this we can move forward, there is something in it that one category is infidel, undoubted... undiluted. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is done, yes, that is done. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No doubt, because there is no need for this effort, to prove it. And the second category is Muslim, there is no difference in their being Muslim... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They will surely be sinners, five percent will surely be infidels... No... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But they are in the Muslim community... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they are, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they are Muslims, there is no doubt in their being Muslims. Then who was trying to prove them? Why was he proving them? 620 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, among those in the Muslim community, the word 'expelled from Islam' has been used in Hadith for a sinner. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, then they say that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: For a sinner, who walks with the oppressor: (Arabic) Expelled from Islam So, since such words were in the terminology of our literature, that is why we used them. Now, the insider, you are asking me for the meaning, I will tell you the meaning: (Arabic) And this is, meaning it is not a book of the series of water, it is not a book of any Caliph of the time. And... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if you say that it is not their saying, then I will not talk about it. If you say that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In this sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that this is not the saying of the Second Messiah? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the sense that you are taking it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, see that meaning, Mirza Sahib! I have one difficulty, I will explain, that those who are advocates and those who are familiar with the Pakistani or British system. And you also know their jurisprudence. We are told that whatever the simple meanings of words are, the obvious meanings, if they are clear then you do not need any other interpretation or explanation. Words must be taken in their literal, simple sense; and that is the intention of the author, the speaker and the writer. This is the first rule. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Provided that he is an authority on it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What he has written, it is quite evident. So, after that you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No question. Anybody. This is the rule. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Then this would be considered as his views, not the views of the Jamaat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is different. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am telling you that these are views. I was trying to explain this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I say, if you say that it is the view of Khalifa Sani, then it is alright, I will read further from it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, this is not of Khalifa Sani, this is not the statement of Khalifa Sani, this is what I am saying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Bashir Ahmad Sahib. I am sorry. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. He is not Khalifa Sani. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, but he is such a big leader of the Jamaat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is a very senior member of the Jamaat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Senior leader. I submit that and he is an authority who can interpret... I am not saying that whatever his interpretation will be, that will prevail over that of Khalifa. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if there is nothing else besides that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No authority. So, I say that this saying of his: "Now that the matter is perfectly clear that salvation is not possible without believing in the Promised Messiah, then why unnecessarily are you trying to prove non-Ahmadis as Muslims." Please consider that "non-Ahmadi" is very important from my point of view, and after that: "Meaning, those who have not accepted Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib as a prophet, have not believed in him as a prophet, are called "non-Ahmadi," and it is clearly said that do not try to prove them as Muslims, they are not Muslims, they are not, they are not..." This is how I understand... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar; literal fact Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And this is what I deny... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is for you. He further states in this book: "Who do not consider believing in all the prophets as part of faith. So, under this verse, everyone who believes in Moses but not in Jesus, or believes in Jesus but not in Muhammad..." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 623 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We're going back again. That which we had decided, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying this because... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The "final argument" decision, which we have made once. ... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this... "...does not believe in Muhammad, and believes in Muhammad but does not believe in the Promised Messiah, he is not only a disbeliever but a confirmed disbeliever and is outside the pale of Islam." I am submitting this because why I am repeating. The intention of a writer, author, speaker, is also evident from the things he says repeatedly, that they consider him outside the pale of Islam, and then they consider a non-Ahmadi a Muslim, and the categories that we have determined. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "That we have made. If you are including this humble one among us as well..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, you have, that you have made. I am asking you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, no, oh! Listen to me. No, no, I am not objecting to anything, I am talking. I am saying that if this humble one has also been included in this, then as the Caliph of the time. This authority cannot be presented against me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I agree with that. On this... if you reject it, then there is no question of it arising. 624 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I reject this meaning of it. And in my humble opinion, it also has a meaning that fits perfectly within the categories we have created. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So what you are saying: "Why are you unnecessarily proving it" is wrong? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These are sinners, according to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning what was said about the non-Ahmadi, that is wrong? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If your interpretation is taken, then it is absolutely wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning this plain word that you are saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: According to your interpretation, this is wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I have no interpretation, Mirza Sahib, I have no dictionary. I go by the ordinary dictionary that exists. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... Not on interpretation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... I did not say dictionary... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was saying that Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said interpretation - Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In this they say non-Ahmadi... Now according to me non- Ahmadi is he... who does not believe in the Prophet Mirza Sahib... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 625 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I understand your point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Secondly, they say that in "Muslim," they only know the definition of Muslim... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's what it will be; we agreed on one... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say that they should not try to prove non-Ahmadi Muslims as Muslims. I was just submitting that there is no confusion here. One category is of disbelievers; there is no doubt about them. The second category is of those who are disbelievers but are Muslims; there is no doubt about that either. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, disbelievers and sinners. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who was trying to prove whom? And who was trying to prove to whom? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... This was my question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's right, that's right. I say that if besides its interpretation, which you just gave, and no other interpretation is possible, then I reject it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, that's another matter that you reject it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we reject it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, similarly, this other reference of theirs that I recited to you, "is a disbeliever and a staunch disbeliever." 626 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Everyone will go in its light. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you explain it? Chaudhry Zahoor Elahi: It is time for prayer, in fact, it is getting late. Mr. Chairman: Good, very good. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After the prayer, Sir. Mr. Chairman: The delegation is permitted to withdraw; to report at 8.00 p.m. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: The House is adjourned to meet at 8.00 p.m. for Maghrib Prayers. [The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib Prayers to meet at 8.00 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghrib Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] INTERRUPTIONS BY THE WITNESS WHEN A QUESTION IS PUT Sahibzada Safiullah: You said yesterday that until the Attorney General finishes the question, the witness should not interrupt. But since yesterday, he has not acted on it at all. And during the Attorney General's question, he starts arguing, that is, he interrupts him. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 627 Mr. Chairman: No, I will absolutely stop and interrupt, Mr. Attorney General says that this procedure is what they believe is better. Sahibzada Safiullah: No, he interferes. Mr. Chairman: That Attorney General... Mr. Hanif Khan: The Attorney General did not say, "I shouldn't ask a question at all and he says I understand." He said that latitude should be given to him to say whatever he wants. But his question must be completed. Sahibzada Safiullah: Let the Attorney General complete the question. Mr. Chairman: Alright, I will point it out, alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To Sahibzada Safiullah) You are right. I even told them twice today that I have not completed the question yet and you... Sahibzada Safiullah: But he is still not acting on it. Mr. Chairman: They may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One more question remains. You gave some reference to the Parsis, that you associated yourselves with the Parsis. 628 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the messenger he sent to someone, to his superior officer, that Mirza Sahib had told a superior officer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. So, the newspaper, if someone reads it from the beginning, the whole thing becomes clear on its own. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Either you read it or you explain what this thing was, and then file it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I'll read it. It's just a newspaper, there's a part worth reading. This newspaper is from November 13, 1944. It contains a sermon by Hazrat Khalifat-ul-Masih II which was printed. In it, he writes: When I considered the solution to this problem, thinking that I, as the Imam of a community, as Khalifat-ul-Masih II, also have some connection to it, I should think about how I can work on it. I pondered over this issue and came to the conclusion that it is possible that the British government is mistaken in thinking that even if the Muslim League is ignored, the Muslim nation as a whole will not be against us, i.e., against the British government, but that by combining Muslims who are not in the League and parties that are not affiliated with the League, they can establish an organized government in India. (This is the belief of the British.) Upon having this thought, I further pondered and decided that by gathering people who are not in the League and pressuring the government, they should dispel this misunderstanding that this is possible. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 629 will not happen. Both will unite. All others too, who are outside the League, will unite and make it clear to the Government that even though we are not in the League, if there is a clash with the League, we will consider it a clash with the Muslim nation, and we will also join the League in the war that will happen." So, these are all very clear statements. After that, to take only the last part and take a wrong meaning from it is not correct. As for the question that the matter is not finished yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: About this question? Or is there another question? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding this, regarding this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is another one. Mr. Chairman: This is the explanation. The writing. Mr. Chairman: Just a minute, just a minute. That writing is admitted which was put to the witness that writing which was referred to by the Attorney-General that is appeared in "Al-Fazal"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That has not been denied by Mirza Sahib; but he is explaining. Mr. Chairman: It is the explanation. But that is admitted? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is admitted, Yes. Mr. Chairman: Yes, the witness may explain. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That has been admitted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I said it has been admitted. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But I have stated that the excerpts of this sermon... 630 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I understood that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is clear. Besides that, there is a resolution of the Muslim League from 1940. That is from before 1946 or 47, isn't it? The resolution that was passed, that separate resolution of March 25th or 23rd, 1940. One of our friends has informed me that I will send a man in search of the newspapers for the 25th and 26th. That the Khalifa of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya was the first to congratulate the Muslim League on the creation of Pakistan, and it was published in the newspapers of March at that time on that date. And he even writes that if needed, he is ready to testify to this. But it is hoped that the newspapers will be found, and there will be no need to testify. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, bring those newspapers. My question was that until the announcement of June 3rd, 1947, the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya was in favor of undivided India. And I asked this question because I gave you a reference to a file, and this was a question, and besides that, the findings of the Munir Inquiry Court regarding this, are in my consideration... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, but before that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...They say, it appears from their writings that they were not in favor of Pakistan till the time of independence, the same thing that I said, June 3rd. Besides that, whether we are with the Muslim League, that is not material, Sir, or whether we will fight with the Muslim League. The question is only of the creation or non-creation of Pakistan. So, in this, you are saying that there is another book and newspaper. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 631 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no. This newspaper states that the Muslim League Pakistan... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you will bring the newspaper now, won't you? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, that of Pakistan is in this newspaper. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This which is, this newspaper, from which the reference has been taken and this question has been formed, This newspaper states that the Muslim League, for the efforts it is making to create Pakistan, we are involved in that war. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at that... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, it is in the same newspaper. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, because Munir has given a finding, therefore I... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, this is a newspaper, this is clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. That is from the findings... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And for the other congratulatory newspapers, we have sent a man, they will give it to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please send that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And this is in '45, in 1945 there is another definite excerpt that we also have, that before the announcement of the policy of this Jamaat, Hazrat Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad in a letter had already given instructions in support of Muslim League. A copy of this letter was sent to Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and he, Imam Jamaat Ahmadiyya, expressed happiness and joy over this decision. 632 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [8th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. No Sir, my which... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is the same struggle as the creation of Pakistan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What I submitted to you was that one "Impact," one Munir Sahib's inquiry report, they have findings in them. One is a comment, one is a finding. So, I said you are explaining. And as far as my context in which I asked you the question, it was not that you are in favor of or against Pakistan, or are. That was not it. It was that you always tried to keep yourself separate from the rest of the Muslims, keep separate, and in this, it happened that against one Parsi, I will present two Parsi... two Ahmadis. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? ...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That "if one Parsi is presented, then in comparison, I will present two Ahmadis." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That... This is what it is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That which is separatism - Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is my fault, it is my fault. What you... this that you are asking, it is based on this newspaper. And in the same newspaper, in the same sermon, Khalifa Sani stated that "In these circumstances, after consulting with the Muslim League and with their consent, I took this stand so that the Muslim League's effort to create Pakistan may become more stable and gain more strength." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 633 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have explained that. The separatism that I was referring to... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. But the answer lies within that, the answer is present within that newspaper itself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will come back to that later, because I have some other references as well. Mirza Sahib! Can I ask you another question now? May I proceed? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Regarding the concept of خاتم النبیین (Seal of the Prophets), Maulana Abul Ata Sahib has written a book in response to Maulana Maududi Sahib's book, Annexure No. 6. In that, Maulana states, Maulana Ataullah, Abu Al-Ata Sahib, that: "There are two different perspectives among those who believe in خاتم النبیین (Seal of the Prophets) regarding the خاتمیت محمدیہ (the finality of prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him)). The first perspective is that the خاتمیت (finality) of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has closed the blessings of other prophets and opened a wide door to the blessings of Muhammad (peace be upon him)." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 8, Sir. Page number 8: "The first perspective is that the خاتمیت (finality) of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has closed the blessings of other prophets and opened a wide door to the blessings of Muhammad (peace be upon him). For your Ummah (community), all those rewards are attainable through following you, which the previously blessed people used to receive." 634 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 This is an ideology that is your ideology. The second ideology is from your Maulana Abu al-Ata Sahib's point of view. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, according to Ata Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is this. Yes sir, yes sir, it is that: The finality of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is synonymous with the cessation of Muhammadan grace. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Synonymous with what? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The finality of Muhammadan grace is synonymous with its cessation." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Your Ummah has been deprived of all those high blessings that the Children of Israel or previous Ummahs used to receive." Now, what I understand from this is that after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), as you say, prophets from the Ummah will come, and this is a door of grace that has not been closed. And the others say that, from your point of view, this door of grace, the door of mercy, has been closed. Now the question is, is this door closed or open nowadays? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This question is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or let me ask another question: in these fourteen hundred years, after the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and before the birth of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, did any other prophet come, or during this time, was this door of grace open for even a minute? 635 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The Faiz-e-Muhammadi (the grace of Muhammad) that this excerpt you just recited refers to, is not just for the followers, but for every kind of grace. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: For example, the grace of the revelation of divine message. Secondly, it refers to the thoughts of a specific era. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I want some clarification on this. I have a question for you: regarding "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" and its further clarification, in my opinion, will there be whether more prophets can come. I mean, prophets who are followers... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can they come or can they not? So, is your point of view that they can come? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I didn't give any answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, as far as I understand, Maulana writes that: "By closing the graces of other prophets, the wide door of the grace of Muhammad has been opened." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: There is no mention of prophethood in this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, this is a discussion on "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" and there is no mention of prophethood? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, there is no mention of only prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say that there is only mention of prophethood. What does this mean, can more prophets come or can they not? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: You can ask that question anyway. But to this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I (asked) for this reason, because you... 636 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1971 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, the thing is, there is philosophy and there is reality. It is a philosophical question whether it is possible or not. And the reality is that all the great events that were fundamentally to happen in the Ummah of Muhammad are mentioned in the Hadith of the Prophet, which is the interpretation of the Great Quran. All the sayings of the Holy Prophet, according to our belief, are the interpretation of the Great Quran. So, the Holy Quran and its interpretation contain news of every important event that relates to the Ummah of Muhammad, until the Day of Judgment. And these pieces of information, these are predictions about the future. From studying their prophecies, we learn that only one Ummah prophet has been foretold. So that is the reality. As for what is possible, whether more can come or not, our elders of the Ummah of Muhammad have discussed this, and this discussion is present in the appendices we sent with it. For example, the distinguished Muhaddith commentator of the subcontinent of Pakistan, Mishkat Sharif, the famous Imam of Ahle Sunnat, Hazrat Mullah Ali Qari, who died in 160 AH, that is, about four or five hundred years ago, he writes in "Mauzuat Kabir," on page number 69 (206), this is AD not Hijri, 1606 AD, in "Mauzuat Kabir": (Arabic) So in this, he has expressed the possibility. It was possible that Hazrat Ibrahim (peace be upon him) could have become an Ummah prophet, it was possible that Hazrat Umar could have become an Ummah prophet. Similarly, there are many other examples. One is a matter of possibility, and the other is, from the point of view after that, regarding the great future revolutions of the Ummah, are there any prophecies from the Holy Prophet ﷺ that mention anyone else? So we have come to the conclusion that the Holy Prophet ﷺ, except for the descent of Jesus and the Mahdi and the Ummah prophet of his time, has not mentioned anyone else. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 637 I have not received any glad tidings, that is, not to my knowledge. If any other friend knows, they can tell me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I was saying to you that Maulana Abul Ata Sahib has given an argument, and Maulana Maududi Sahib's or other Muslims' point of view is that, according to them, the door of grace, the mercy of Allah, has been closed. Like the Prophet of Mercy came, will there be no other prophets? They say this door is not closed. I was asking whether this door was opened for a short time or not in thirteen hundred years, whether grace came or not, mercy came or not, I was asking about the prophet, whether any other prophet came or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, sometimes you ask me a question using the word "mercy" and sometimes "prophet". So, the word "mercy" should be used. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in this context, if you give me a chance, there is a discussion of "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I understand that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: For a minute, on one hand, this point of view is presented that Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) is the last prophet, and no prophet can come, of any kind, of any category, of any sort, of any kind, so regarding them, they say that they think that the door of Allah's grace has been closed. This door will remain open, this is what I understand their logic (plain reading, simple reading) which is theirs, that this door has not been closed, and prophets will come. So, I submitted that before the birth of Mirza Sahib, these thirteen 638 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Has any prophet come in fourteen hundred years? You say that it is not in your knowledge. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in these thirteen, fourteen hundred years, no Ummah prophets have come, but prophets of the Israelites have come in hundreds, thousands. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, Mirza Sahib! The question is, they say that all the other prophets are... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what you have read. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You also say that those doors are closed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the question you have read does not contain what you are saying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then I will read it again: " The first theory is that the finality of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) has closed the blessings of other prophets. So as far as the blessings of other prophets, Jews, Christians, are concerned, they are closed, there is no dispute in this, neither of Maulana Maududi Sahib, nor of Maulana Abul Ata Sahib. Now the question is that the door of the Ummah prophet, they say that it is closed, they say that it is open, and many will come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, let me clarify this a little, according to my belief. Our belief is that no prophet can be made as a result of the blessings of the previous prophets. This shows that this discussion is not about opening the door of prophethood, but the discussion is... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DEI EGATION 639 is that Prophet Muhammad closed the door to the blessings of previous prophets, and after your advent and the revelation of the Holy Quran, there is now only one door to obtaining the blessings of God, which is following Muhammad ﷺ. But when compared to the previous prophets through whose blessings prophethood was not attained, it appears that the discussion here, in this part of the book, or somewhere else, I don't know, but in this part, there is no discussion of "Umati Nabi," but rather a discussion of the continuation of Muhammadi blessings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, I may be mistaken again. Let me read it again because this entire book is a detailed response to Maududi Sahib's booklet "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin." Then here he states: "There are two different views of those who believe in Muhammad's خاتمیت ﷺ as خاتم النبین" meaning "There are two views on the discussion about خاتم العین" two schools of thought, one does not mention any other blessing yet, which is what I understand. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When the previous prophets are mentioned, the mention of that blessing cannot come up. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, let me explain to you, the first viewpoint is this: Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Respected Chairman! There is some confusion here. It would be better if the question is completed and then they answer. We cannot understand anything in this regard. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I submitted that the whole discussion is about what the meaning of "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin" is. On this, Maulana Abul Ata Sahib says that: NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 There are different theories regarding the finality of Muhammad or those who believe the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) to be the Seal of the Prophets. The first theory is that the finality of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has closed the blessings of other prophets and opened the wide door of Muhammadan blessings. For his Ummah, due to following him, all those rewards are attainable which the previously blessed people used to get. That is, the rewards that the other Ummahs used to get have ended, that door is closed, as I understand, but in this Ummah, the Ummah of Muhammad, this blessing will continue. And this blessing, as you said in the "affidavit" that this window is open from which a prophet can come, as far as I could understand, I also give its reference that the door is open: "For your Ummah, due to following you, all those rewards are attainable which the previously blessed people used to get." The second theory is that the finality of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) is synonymous with the closing of Muhammadan blessings. Your Ummah has been deprived of all those high rewards that the Children of Israel or the previous Ummahs used to get." Now, my question is, does it mention in it that no one else will come? And is this about the blessing and the coming of a prophet or is it that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is not mentioned in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. I will not go further than this. Now, Mirza Sahib! I would like to ask you, according to your belief, can another prophet come after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) or not? Obviously, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 641 Do you consider an Ummah prophet can come? Then the second question is so that you can explain. In this period, have only those prophets come, or have others also come? Please explain this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is the question finished? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We believe that in the Ummah of Muhammad, only those Ummah prophets can come who have been foretold by Muhammad (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Have you finished? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, my statement is finished. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And according to your theory, is that foretelling only about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, or is it about the Promised Messiah, and not about any other prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, according to our belief, that foretelling is only about the Mahdi and the Messiah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what you said, this, do you say it with reference to any Hadith? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, I say it with reference to many Ahadith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That only one will come, and no others will come besides him, nor have they come before? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, look. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will explain, sir, that no prophet came before Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, because if you say that it is only about one? Your belief, and that is the Messiah, then it is obvious that no one came before him, because it is his claim that they believe that he was the Messiah. And I think that no one will come after him either, meaning that the door of grace is completely closed. It was only open for a short time and open for one prophet. And on this you say that you are saying this because it is confirmed by the Hadith. Is that correct, sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When is your question... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it's done. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you refer to this book, it contains not one but all the blessings... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I left that out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You left that out, but you have put that restriction, so I will answer. Anyway, I will answer as I understand. We understand that, thanks to the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), more blessings can be obtained than all the blessings, which are in the thousands and millions, that could be obtained through all the previous prophets. And among these blessings is the birth of the righteous, among these blessings is the birth of those whom we call martyrs in a spiritual sense, the birth of those who are righteous, those who are called Siddiqs, and the door of Ummah Prophethood is also open, and countless blessings are under it, which can be obtained through Muhammad (PBUH). CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 643 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, that's a different matter... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The group of "Mun'im Alaihim" (Those Favored by God), to which we refer in Surah Al-Fatiha: "Guide us to the straight path, the path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor." From this Hadith, this Quranic verse of Surah Al-Fatiha, we use the term "Mun'im Alaihim group," "the path of those upon whom Your blessings have been bestowed," and in the Holy Quran, in this context, there is a reference in Surah Al-Fatiha to the Mun'im Alaihim group: "The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor," In it: "Of the prophets, the truthful, the martyrs, and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions." So, these top four ranks are mentioned in another place in another verse of the Holy Quran. And in the Ummah of Muhammad, in these fourteen hundred years, this collective Mun'im Alaihim group, thousands upon thousands of different ranks have emerged at one time. And at one time, that group of Mun'im Alaihim, who are called "Umati Nabi" (Prophet from within the Ummah), only one was born. But that doesn't mean that the door to the blessings of Muhammad is not open, or that only one showed a glimpse of it and disappeared from our sight. It is constantly revealing its glory to us even today. Mr. Chairman: The question of Attorney-General is unanswered.......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will just, Sir, repeat the question in a different form, if I am permitted. Mr. Chairman: Yes, the question is unanswered; Attorney-General may repeat the question. 644 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [8th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am repeating it in a different form. Did Maulana Maududi Sahib or any other Muslim scholars ever say that the door of "Faiz Muhammadi" is closed? In the sense that you are saying, that no elders, no truthful saints will come? No one has said this. That question does not even arise. They still say that pious people will come who will convey the message of Allah to the people. This blessing will continue at all times. There is no dispute on this. The question I am simply asking you is, according to your theory, can any other prophet come besides Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The answer to "Can come before" is: Can come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Can come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. But in reality, only one has come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But practically, only the same can come whom Muhammad ﷺ has foretold. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And he did not give the glad tidings of anyone other than Mirza Sahib? That means you know the hadiths. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: According to my knowledge, he did not give. But if someone else proves that Hazrat Muhammad ﷺ has given the glad tidings of someone else as well, then I commit to saying that only that prophet can come, of whom Muhammad ﷺ has given the glad tidings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if I say, Mirza Sahib! If this principle is accepted that Allah's blessings will continue, Allah's treasures are not closed, in that sense. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 645 I am saying "in the sense of prophet" because if this principle is accepted, then because the world has just begun, thirteen hundred years is nothing, thirteen thousand years will pass, thousands of prophets can come. You say: no, only one prophet will come, only one follower has come because according to you the prophecy is from Prophet Muhammad ﷺ that there will be only one, and no more will come. Do I understand what you mean? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not entirely clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will explain again... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I said that in my knowledge there is a prophecy of only one. And I, I... my statement is not finished yet, and I, I believe in this principle that in the Ummah of Muhammad, except for that follower-prophet whom Muhammad himself prophesied, no one else can come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And no, that's what I want to say. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the principle, according to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Has not come, will not come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, only the one who has been prophesied can come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, he prophesied only one? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: According to us? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. I am talking about faith, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, according to our faith, the prophecy of the follower-prophet is only one, by the name of Mahdi and Messiah. And but the countless blessings of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ 646 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 They are also blessings who are prophets of the children of Israel... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am mentioning prophets. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Prophets of the children of Israel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am talking about prophets, that according to your belief, no prophet can come except for one, nor has come? I am asking if this is your belief? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, according to our belief, only that follower can come who was foretold by the Seal of the Prophets himself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No one else can come besides that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No one else can come besides that. But thousands of prophets from the children of Israel can come. The word "prophet" has come in that, hasn't it: "prophets of the children of Israel." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, non-followers can still become prophets? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Prophets of the children of Israel can become prophets. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That, that would be the blessing of Muhammad, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely the blessing of Muhammad. There is no other blessing at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They would become like renowned scholars. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Prophets of the children of Israel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning scholars. They wouldn't have the status of a prophet, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Allah Almighty will treat them like prophets. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 647 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Allah Almighty will treat them like prophets. What I am asking is, the prophet that we refer to, one thing is what you explained this morning, that it is written that Allah Almighty will treat them like prophets... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have stated my belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just saying, the "prophet" that we refer to. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that. I have stated my belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can't anyone else come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have stated this belief that, according to me, not just that one, an Ummah prophet, can come in the Ummah of Muhammad, of whom Hazrat Khatam-ul-Anbiya (PBUH) has given the glad tidings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And he has given it only about one. This is your belief and he has come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if you state it with that condition, then it is correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That only one has come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the others are prophets of the Children of Israel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. And no, that question does not even arise, they cannot come now, because there is a prophecy of one and it is finished. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I also clarified that there is 'one is to come' and 'one can come', meaning possibility. So many times we... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that is why I have clarified from you that when the Holy Prophet's prophecy is about one, then one cannot come, this is a matter of belief, right? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION have become, so they cannot give anything to anyone. Similarly, they say that no matter how ascetic one may be, even if his asceticism increases and he surpasses many prophets in piety and righteousness, no matter how much divine knowledge he attains, God will never make him a prophet, and never will. Their understanding is due to not understanding the power of God Almighty, otherwise, not just one, I say there will be thousands of prophets. will be Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Who is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Sahib Anwar Khilafat." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Can this be seen? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 62- 649 Mr. Chairman: The book may be handed over to the witness the librarian may hand over the book. The librarian may hand over the book to the witness. Mian Masood Ahmed: Mr. Chairman! I have some disagreement with the method of putting questions. I understand... Mr. Chairman: One second. Please sit down. This we discuss always afterwards always afterwards. Mian Masood Ahmed: I am talking about the procedure. Mr. Chairman: We also discuss this procedure after this, always, every day afterwards discuss. We have laid down certain rules of procedure. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 8th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And along with that, let me read page 65 as well, then I will do both... "They frighten with opposition. But if both sides of my neck are held and I am told to say that no prophet will come after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then I will say to him that he is a liar, a deceiver, prophets can come after him and they definitely can come." Mr. Chairman: The book may be handed over to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now along with this, when Mirza Sahib! I complete the question... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You read page 65? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. 12 and 65, both. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 62 and 65? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Chairman: The book may be handed over to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, we are giving this to you, please look at it. Mr. Chairman: Let the witness verify it, let the witness verify it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The answer to this is that one is the possibility of whether or not it can happen. One is the belief that one has come. As far as the question of "can come" is concerned, I am stating that the references you have read are regarding possibility. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These references are correct, aren't they? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 651 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The references are correct, but it mentions possibility, as in "Taqwiyat-ul-Iman." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will submit to you, sir, that do you say whether Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Sahib knew about the prophecy of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) or not? Did he know that what prophecy did he make, that only one Promised Messiah will come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He told them that there is a possibility of this by God Almighty... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no possibility of this when he has knowledge of the prophecy, this is what I am submitting, you explain this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it is in the discussion of possibility. Okay, now I understand, now I understand. According to me, the discussion of possibility... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, he is not saying possibility, he is saying "will come." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That also comes with possibility. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he is not saying can come, he is saying will come. Please look at it carefully: "Will come." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You, you, you Inquiry Committee, which is the Munir Committee, this question was asked there also, and there it was said that "by my meaning is possibility," a person himself... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is, that is interpretation. Here is what I am asking you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the interpretation of the author himself, so there are two interpretations: One is the interpretation of the writer that "by my meaning is possibility." 652 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8, 1974 I am talking about possibility and today one of my interpretations is that he said correctly that I am talking about the possibility. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mirza Sahib! Mirza Nasir Ahmed: About possibility, if I may? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you complete it, then I... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: When there is a discussion about "possibility", then this "Taqwiyat-ul-Iman" Hazrat Maulana Muhammad Ismail Sahib Shaheed's page 37 says: "This is the glory of the emperor of God, that in an instant, with one command of 'Be', He can create millions of prophets and saints and jinn and angels equal to Gabriel and Muhammad ﷺ." Now, despite their having this belief that the Holy Prophet ﷺ is the Seal of the Prophets, and no one like you can come, despite this belief, they are talking about possibility. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Shall I proceed? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I submit to you again that in my opinion the question is very simple: what is the meaning of " ختم نبوت " (the finality of the prophethood)? Which is the belief of all our Muslims, in this belief, in the light of the Quran, there has been no other command from Allah Almighty until now that "I am still sending a new man, I am sending a prophet, I am sending a new Sharia." Allah Almighty can do everything. I am not talking about possibility. What Allah Almighty is at this time... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 653 The order is before us, their book is before us, the question is of its interpretation. Two points of view were presented. One point of view is that no other prophet can come. Khatam-un-Nabiyeen This is what it means. The second meaning is taken that no, other prophets can come. Then after that The second question I asked was, if other prophets can come, how many will come? You said that The good news of Hazrat Ali is that the promised Messiah will come and he has already come. On this your Belief is that no others will come, in the same context I submitted that Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib would also be aware of the good news. Surely this is not the case that you know, and he Not be. Despite this, they say that "other prophets will come and I will read the words again Let me give you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is clear, clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not a matter of conjecture, not a matter of possibility, I am saying this. Please think again: "certainly, definitely." And it is understood that the treasures of God are exhausted, so He cannot give anything to anyone. In this way, they say that no matter how much one increases in asceticism and piety, Even if he surpasses many prophets in piety and righteousness, no matter how much knowledge Acquire, but God will never make him a prophet. That is, this present interpretation of the Holy Quran, the present command of Allah, Its interpretation is happening: He will not make and will never make Their understanding is due to not understanding the power of Allah Almighty. Otherwise one prophet What, I say thousands will not be. 654 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18th, 1974 Allah Almighty has not given any further order yet. They are commenting on the interpretation of the order that has been given: and I say that there will be no other prophet, this is not a matter of possibility. And then further here, Mr. Mirza says, "They frighten me with opposition. But even if a sword is placed on both sides of my neck and I am told to say that no prophet will come after the Holy Prophet ﷺ, then I will say that he is a liar, a deceiver. Prophets can come after him and they certainly can." See, here the matter of possibility has come up, there it is not a matter of possibility. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will answer when your question is finished. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So my question is, sir, that he said that "other prophets will come and will certainly come," he did not talk about the possibility of Allah Almighty sending down any order, sending down any further revelation to any other prophet. We say that Allah Almighty’s final order has come. The final book has come, this is our belief, this is your belief, and its interpretation is being done as to what the meaning of " خاتم النین " (Seal of the Prophets) is, and on this I have submitted and you have said that your belief is that only one more Messiah will come, and has come. Here it says that thousands can come" and "will come". So, please comment on this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I have understood is that you have not given a verdict, but have asked a question which I have to answer. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 655 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I don't have a definitive decision. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my opinion, there is nothing but possibility, and because even with knowledge, the possibility is sometimes discussed, as Hazrat Ismail Sahib Shaheed, whom I just quoted, has the belief that no law-bearing prophet can come after Hazrat Muhammad ﷺ. Standing firm on this strong belief, and as far as I have understood him, not even for a second considering that a prophet with a new law can come after Muhammad ﷺ, despite this firm belief, he writes this: His faith is firm, but he writes this: Allah Almighty has the power that in an instant, with a single command of "Be," He can create millions of saints, genies, angels, Gabriel, and equals of Muhammad ﷺ. Millions equal to Muhammad can be created despite the certainty that it cannot happen practically, so to say that since this is your belief, the discussion of possibility cannot happen anywhere, in my humble opinion, that interpretation is not correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I was just saying that Allah Almighty is the Lord of the Worlds and He can completely destroy this world in which we humans live, He can eliminate this question altogether. Whether prophets come or not, He can destroy humanity itself. But I am not going into that. No one denies His power, His ability. The question was only about the Seal of the Messengers and Prophethood. The interpretation of the Seal of the Prophets that is being done, the two points of view that are coming forward, according to them, I think they have given this interpretation, this explanation, that other prophets can come. After that, you said that we have the glad tidings that only one prophet will come. The matter remains there. I will not go further into it. 656 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8th, 1974) But now the second question arises, if no prophet can come after Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, then Mirza Ghulam Ahmad became the Seal of the Prophets in the sense of the last prophet. You shouldn't say this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely cannot be. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The last prophet is the same. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He who called himself "Ghulam" (slave) and "Ahqar-ul-Ghulaman" (the most insignificant of slaves), how could he be the last? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, should I understand that no follower can come after him? No other being can come after Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ismail Sahib Shaheed says that "millions of Muhammads can come." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you, Mirza Sahib! Please, I am not talking about the power (of God). Your belief is that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) gave the glad tidings that the Promised Messiah will come, and no one else will come, this was your interpretation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My belief is that after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), leaving you aside, standing in opposition to you, not claiming to follow you, without losing oneself in the way of God through you, not even an ummati-Nabi (follower-prophet) can come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning this, that a follower who became a prophet... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He also possesses his own attributes and is worthy of sitting in your shoes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, in this way, can someone else come who sits in the shoes? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 657 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the Holy Prophet (PBUH) has said, and if God Almighty wills to show a manifestation of His power, then He can create millions of Muhammads like Hazrat Ismail Sahib Shaheed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, for the time being, what our belief is, what Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) has said, what he has said, is his prophecy, according to which our belief is that no one else can come. What is your belief? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I gave the example of Hazrat Ismail Sahib Shaheed that "I believe that he believed that after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), no Khatam-un-Nabiyeen can come." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. Your belief is that the prophecy is only one. Factually, I am not talking about this possibility. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's what everyone believes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then if no one else can come, then he is not the last prophet, Khatam-ul-Anbiya, who... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is what everyone believes, every sect believes this, every sect of the Ummah believes this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Every sect then you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The last prophet... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Every sect of the Ummah of Muhammad believes that the Ummah has been given the glad tidings of the coming of the Messiah, and he has to come later. 658 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that comes later. The final prophet is the Promised Messiah? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The final prophet – leave out "Promised." Every sect of the Ummah believes that the Messiah will descend. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And according to your belief, he has already come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This issue, you see, I don't understand. And leave the rest. Every sect says that the Messiah has to descend. When the true Messiah descends, will he become the final one? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. I will ask you another question then. On the Day of Judgment, all the prophets will be present in God's court. Who will be considered the final prophet? Prophet Muhammad, Jesus Christ, or Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hazrat Muhammad is the first prophet and also the last prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He will be considered the final prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you stated that Ummi Nabi... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Ummi Nabi" is what one calls someone who has no existence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whatever you understand it to be. You say that whoever does not accept Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad Sahib and, after the completion of the argument, does not accept him, is a kafir, absolutely a kafir. So, he is a prophet because it is stated in Islam that whoever denies any prophet is a kafir. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 659 Is considered. So, according to your point of view, are they a prophet, and I ask, are they the last prophet or will there be others to come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In Islam, it also states that one who denies the four pillars of Islam despite reciting the Kalimah, becomes a disbeliever. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking, will there be other prophets to come? And is this the last prophet or not, according to your point of view? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ask someone who knows. What answer can I give? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say his prophecy is this. Mr. Chairman: The question of the Attorney-General is unanswered and the opinion of the witness is sought. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The prophecy of Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) and his commands, according to my own belief, I am fully aware that no other prophet can come after him, nor is Ghulam Ahmad after him. I ask you what is your interpretation? Mr. Chairman: What is the interpretation of the witness? Because the witness is in the witness box. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will tell you when you finish the question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That no other last prophet, can any other Ummah prophet come after him? Is he the last of the Ummati Prophets, the first and the last, and the only one? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When the question is finished, then I will. 660 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 8th, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is finished. It is finished. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is our belief that the Ummah Prophet who was prophesied, does not have any existence of his own, and after inflicting complete death upon his self and for Muhammad's ﷺ cause, the person who comes with full dedication for this purpose, can neither be called the last nor the first. And those elders of our Ummah Muhammadiyah, whose greatness cannot be doubted, they have expressed the possibility that by the power of Allah, it is not far-fetched that He creates millions of prophets like Muhammad ﷺ, so the thing that you quietly accept for them, how can it become a topic of discussion for us? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you about your belief, Mirza Sahib! I am asking about your belief. If you don't mind my repeating this, I asked about your belief, I am not talking about possibility according to your belief, Allah Almighty can do everything. For the time being, what our belief is, what is your belief regarding what Khatam-e-Nabuwwat means, according to that, the last prophet, whom you call Ummah Prophet... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, according to that, the last prophet is Muhammad ﷺ. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That would be the Sharia Prophet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The last prophet is Muhammad ﷺ. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that would be the Sharia Prophet, I am talking about the Ummah Prophet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am telling you my belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking about your belief regarding the Ummah Prophet, Mirza Sahib! MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: Yes, I am telling you the same thing. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Not an "Umati" prophet. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: The last prophet is Muhammad ﷺ. There is no prophet after him. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: And this Mirza Ghulam Ahmad... MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: There was no prophet before you either. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: This Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, was he not, was he not? MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: He was not after. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Yes? MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: He was not a prophet after Muhammad ﷺ. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Was he before? MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: Look: "La Nabiyya Ba'di" "Ba'di" which is an Arabic word, its meaning should be taken as "before". MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: No, you say that there is no Sharia prophet. I say that the "Umati" prophet that you say. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: No, no, I don't say there is no Sharia prophet. I say that there is no prophet after Muhammad ﷺ, nor was there any prophet before. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Okay. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: He is the first and the last, and if you want references, we will present them to you tomorrow. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: No, it's a very plain thing, what is the need for references? There is no need for references here, neither did anyone come before, nor did anyone come after. 662 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The problem is also solved. The whole dispute is that another prophet has come. You say he hasn't come at all. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "I am the first and the last." No, this dispute was ended by Muhammad ﷺ himself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right, isn't it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "I am the first and the last." Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Sir, the answer to this question has not come yet. This should be kept pending or it is that... Mr. Chairman: This is for the Attorney-General to ask the Chair whether the answer has come or not. If the Attorney-General feels satisfied............ Maulana... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib said yesterday that he is tired. I can continue, but if Mirza Sahib wants........... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am tired. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He's tired. Okay, tomorrow then. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Tomorrow is Friday, there is nothing regarding that. Mr. Chairman: No, tomorrow I will... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tomorrow I have to give a lecture at a Defense College there. So tomorrow... Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow, I will tell the programme. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, because tomorrow is also Friday. Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow is Friday, yes. I will tell the program. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We do work, if you don't work on Friday... Mr. Chairman: No, let me tell you, tomorrow, we will sit up to 12:30 because of Jumma, and not up to 1:30 or up to 2:00. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 12:30 Sir! Mr. Chairman: We will meet until 12:30. There will be only one sitting. There won't be any break. We will start at 10:30………….. (Interruption). All right, 9:30 to 12:30; and, in the evening, we will meet at 6:00. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: At 6 'O' clock in the evening? Mr. Chairman: At 6 'O' clock in the evening. The delegation is permitted to leave. 9:30 to 12:30, all right? They will do that regarding the date. Nine-thirty is all right. Then you will not come. The Delegation is permitted to leave 9:30; tomorrow at 9:30 a.m. Nine-thirty is all right. The honourable members may please keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chambers.) Mr. Chairman: The honourable members may please keep sitting, (Interruption) Rao Mohammad Hashim Khan to return back to his seat, and Khawja Mohammad Suleman also; Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani also to be in his seat. 664 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 18, 1974 Just wait a minute. Yes, Hazarat Maulana Attaullah Sahib Lyallpuri. PROCEDURE AND STRATEGY FOR FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION Mian Mohammad Attaullah: Sir, I have my hat off for the Attorney-General today. Mr. Chairman: Leave it, please. Mian Mohammad Attaullah: Just a minute, Sir. In my humble opinion, Sir, tomorrow, when we start the cross- examination again, my request is........... Mr. Chairman: You have had all his books overturned. Ansari Sahib Mian Mohammad Attaullah: The question which was being asked at this moment, I think we should start the cross-examinination from this very question. Mr. Chairman: Leave it to the Attorney-General; we have decided not to discuss the strategy; leave it, the strategy also. A lawyer knows his strategy best; and also, it also leads out. You decided yesterday that everything is being leaked out and then you want to discuss the strategy in the House! Tomorrow Interruption) Just a minute. 157 Wait a bit. Tomorrow, I have told them to be here at 9:30; Attorney- General will not be here; Maulana Zafar Ahmed Ansari will start the cross examination on the subject entrusted to him by the Steering Committee; but I will request the Law Minister also to be present tomorrow: In case that topic finishes and the Attorney-General does not return, it will be the duty of the Law Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Those who don't come to the house for three years, don't sit, now that deficiency has been removed. Chaudhary Barkatullah: Mr. Speaker! The request is that as you said just now that the Attorney General will not be here tomorrow. It is true that Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari is working very hard, taking great pains, he is... 666 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8, 1974 competent man But, sir, if tomorrow another man, meaning Mr. Ansari, comes, or Pirzada Sahib, then in my opinion, sir! The whole thing that is going on from the beginning, as the Attorney General is doing, it will break and completely, sir! It won't be possible. Mr. Chairman: No, no, no, he has said about the distortion of the Quran, the Holy Word, the whole cross-examination takes place in Arabic and the verses of the Holy Word have to be read. That's why the Steering Committee assigned that task to Maulana Zafar Ahmed Ansari. The rest Attorney General Sahib Mr. Muhammad Al-Muzaffar Randhawa: Maulana Barkatullah Sahib withdraws his words. Mr. Chairman: The rest Attorney General Sahib knows better where to leave and where to pick up from. Chaudhary Barkatullah: So, sir, is the Attorney General going somewhere tomorrow? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: What the honourable member has said is correct. There is a considerable force in it. It is very difficult to break the trend of the cross-examination. We all know the difficulty. Now, there are a number of questions that the Attorney-General must have already formulated in his own mind..... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Sahibzada Sahib, please sit down. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: ......... Therefore, what we should do is that the Attorney-General has to address the Defence College at 8.00 'O' clock in the morning....... (Interruption) PROCEDURE AND STRATEGY FOR FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION 667 No, we know that it lasts about forty-five minutes of speech, and forty-five minutes of questions- answers- (Interruption) Yes. Attorney-General will be force by about between 9.30 and 10.00. Let us meet at 10.30- from 10.30 to 12.30; that is much better. I think it is unfair because.......... Mr. Chairman: Then I announce (Interruption) Just a minute. Maulana I announce 10. 'O' clock; and 10.00 means 10.30, because you always this is the convention, established practice- - meet half an hour late. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: So, Sir, in that case, let us try to meet here in time tomorrow and we will be here at 10.30. Mr. Chairman: Then they may be informed to come at 10.00, because we told them 9.30; they may be told that they are needed at 10.00; We will inform them. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: I think that is much letter, because let us not ........ (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Sahibzada Safiullah has to say something about Maudoodi Sahib. You were standing, yes. Yes, please speak. Yes, yes, please speak. Sahibzada Safiullah: It's nothing. Mr. Chairman: Please sit down. Speak up, sir, now is the time for speeches. Sahibzada Safiullah: These Qadianis have created a fraud of everything. Mr. Chairman: No, no, it's nothing. This is just gossip. Okay, Maulana Abdul Haq! 668 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 8th, 1974 MAULANA ABDUL HAQ: In connection with (Interruption) MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari Sahib! Please be seated. Yes, Reporter Sahib may go, of course. This is not to be recorded. [The Special Committee of the Whole House subsequently adjourned to meet at ten of the clock, in the morning, on Friday, the 9th August, 1974] PCPP1-1092(10) NA. (0-2-231)--450- No. 05 C THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Monday, August 9, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS Pages 1. Recitation from the Holy Qur'an. 671 2. Production and verification of quotations 671-673 3. Deliberations of the special committee in the absence of the delegation 673-674 4. Supply of copies of record of cross- examination to members and Attorney 674-675 General. 5. Secrecy of the proceedings of the special committee 675-676 6. Continuity of the cross-examination 676-677 7 References for questions in the cross-examination. 677 8 Cross-examination of the qadiani group delegation-continued. 677-795 9 Production of original fatwahs 795-797 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD No. 05 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Friday, the 9th of August, 1974 (Contains No. 1-21) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEES OF THE WHOLE HOUSE SECRET Friday, August 9, 1974 The Special Committee of the whole House of the National Assembly of Pakistan met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at ten o'clock in the morning, Mr. Speaker (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair as Chairman. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN Mr. Chairman: Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari, Attorney- General has come. He is in my Chamber; coming in two minutes; one minute rather. Yes Maulana Sahib. PRODUCTION AND VERIFICATION OF QUOTATIONS Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I would like to submit that yesterday one of us gave a reference to a newspaper, dated November 13, 1946, and we did not have that statement. Al-Fadl, but they brought it, and they read it. 671 Mr. Chairman: Admitted. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: He read the part that served his purpose. That has been included in the evidence. Take it from him and keep it in your record. Mr. Chairman: We will keep two. By the way, that portion that he said, "I can present two Ahmadis against one Parsi," he admitted that. He said this. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: That has come into evidence. Mr. Chairman: He said this portion is later. First, this is in it. So, that reference to "Impact" that the Attorney General Sahib gave. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes. Mr. Chairman: In which he was referred, he admitted that. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay. Mr. Chairman: We will take it from him. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes. Secondly, yesterday he brought up such a matter regarding Pakistan, his position and so now either he gets a chance to explain it. What is the situation? Mr. Chairman: You can put a question about what his stance has been regarding Pakistan, and the Attorney-General has been putting questions about the creation and about the ...... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, indeed. Mr. Chairman: In fact, he has a definite question that I don't want to express, because I shouldn't express my views, my comments. He has pinned down that... it was only on the 3rd of March. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, absolutely right. 143 FROM CAPITANIKA CASAL LON KME ABSENCE OF THE DELEGATION 01 Mr. Chairman: ......3rd of June 1947, "before that you were pleading for Akhand Bharat." Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: Yes. Mr. Chairman: So, a definite question has come, not one but twice or thrice. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: Yes. My point is that the whole thing should come. It should not be that only this remains on record. Mr. Chairman: No, no. The rest is for the House to know. As the Attorney-General remarked at the very outset that the answer can be evasive or you can't know, he may not answer. So, the House is perfectly justified in drawing any inference. Mr. Attorney-General, are you ready? Should we call them? DELIBERATIONS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE IN THE ABSENCE OF THE DELEGATION Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: I think, Sir, these suggestions which come from the members..... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri:....These should not stand part of the record because, if tomorrow this record was to go into the hands of somebody, they will say that they were also sitting as the judges and prosecutors, they were suggesting certain things. So, if suppose this record comes into the hands of any........... Mr. Chairman: Just......... Don't call them yet, don't call them yet. Yes! Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: If this record was to come into the hands of any judicious party or any people who are not concerned with the issue, they will say that when the witnesses used to be outside, the Chairman and the members, who were sitting as the judges, they used to discuss that 'this gap has remained here; we should plug in this gap; we should plug in this gap,' S COMMOLAVIN Vin Auguri, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Mr. Ahmad Raza Qasuri, I may just only....... Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: This is my suggestion, Sir. Mr. Chairman: No, no...... only tell you this that strictly we are not a court; we are not acting as a court; we are acting as a Committee and committee members can express themselves. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: I don't know; I would like to be educated on this point. Mr. Chairman: So far as the procedure is emeerned, every day we review, and that procedure is not part of the record...is not part of the recored. Record is their statement, their examination and cross-examination. That is the record. Sahibzada Ahmed Raza Khan Qasuri: Okay. SUPPLY OF COPIES OF RECORD OF CROSS-EXAMINATION TO MEMBERS AND ATTORNEY GENERAL Sahibzada Ahmed Raza Khan Qasur: And, number two, Sir, we would like that, before the Committee goes for recess, we would like that all the members of the Committee should be provided with complete record........ Mr. Chairman: I am working on these lines. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: …………..So that when we go back home, we should have complete record with us. Mr. Chairman: I am working on those lines. And the Attorney-General also, he needs this record more than anybody. And we will be having two hundred copies of that record also, cyclostyled, so that, in the recess, you can prepare the case, so that you prepare your arguments. SECRECY OF THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: That's right, Sir. 675 Mr. Chairman: But the difficulty is, when we read in the newspapers, certain members say that there should be no recess. There lies the difficulty. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: This is the difficulty. I am not for recess. The choice is entirely that of the House and the Chairman. Mr. Chairman: No, no, the recess is needed for preparation of your case and arguments; and not only for Attorney-General but for the members also. Mr. Muhammad Haneef Khan: Mr. Chairman, I want to put it on the record, because the point has been raised by honorable member from Qasur, that the committee, so far, has been proceeding with this issue without any prejudice to the delegation or to one side or to the other side. We have left our minds open. If we are convinced by the arguments of the witness, who is just giving a statement, or we may not be convinced; but we have not formed opinion. And I think, when I speak, I speak on behalf of the whole of the committee, and they will agree with me that our mind is open to be convinced by the witness here or any other witnesses who will come later on. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Thank you very much. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: I want that he should speak first. Mr. Chairman: Yes, I am with you SECRECY OF THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman, Sir, I want to request that the delegation members come inside with big briefcases and bags. May it not be so, Sir, that they are tape-recording the proceedings of the Assembly, of the House. Please be sure about this. 676 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit something regarding this for a second, even if you are taping it. This we have decided that we will hold these proceedings in camera and, whenever we find it suitable, convenient, we will release it to the press. Whosever violates the secrecy is responsible for his own actions. If the tape is declared or played after we release all the proceedings, it makes no difference. If it is released earlier, then everybody is responsible for his own consequences. If there has been no tape, any of the members of the delegation may disclose it to anyone; he too violates the secrecy. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: That is the circular, Sir! It is very difficult to book out from there. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi! Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: I have to submit this, sir! That Mr. Chairman: Point of order. CONTINUITY OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Moula Ghulam Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: First of all, we should have a little discussion on today's conversation or the questions. As far as I have heard, the issue of distortion... Mr. Chairman: No, not distortion yet. After that, it was decided that the Attorney General Sahib left off yesterday. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Okay. Mr. Chairman: Yesterday night when it was 1:15 AM. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Okay. Mr. Chairman: So, we will start from there. That is why, instead of 9:30, it was kept at 10:30 again so that the Attorney General could come back and start from there. Will the distortion of the Holy Quran not start yet? 144 AGRARI MELEGATION SAVUT 011 Maulana Ghaus Hazarvi: My meaning is that if the question of distortion arises, then such a question should be well-considered so that it is strong. In my opinion, the question of literal distortion is weak. Mr. Chairman, sir, let them decide among themselves, sir. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Yes, that is why I requested. Mr. Chairman: Decide among yourselves. For this, Maulana Zafar Ahmed... Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: I have to submit this. Mr. Chairman Zafar Ahmed Ansari, you and all the gentlemen who are experts in this matter or who know more, should sit together and decide. Now we are ready. They may be called. REFERENCES FOR QUESTIONS IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman! For my questions, some references from the book "Anwar Khilafat" were not available. The Attorney General also objected that those references were not available. That book has become available. I have flagged those references. If the Attorney General wishes, he may ask questions about them. Mr. Chairman: You can talk to the Attorney-General, you can talk to him. Yes, they may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney General Pakistan): Mirza Sahib! As far as the questions and the answers you have been giving... Mirza Nasir Ahmad (Witness, Head of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, Rabwah): Yes! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney General of Pakistan): What I have understood from this, I will briefly explain so that after this, as far as the questions I have been asking you and the answers you have been giving, I will briefly present what I have understood from it. I asked you at one stage, "According to your belief, is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a prophet?" Then you said, "Yes, he is an Ummah (follower) prophet." Mirza Nasir Ahmad (Witness, Head of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, Rabwah): As far as I remember, at that time I had said: "No, but he is an Ummah prophet." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney General of Pakistan): Yes. I am saying this because I am repeating it. Wherever there is a correction: "...no, but he is an Ummah prophet, not a Sharia prophet." After that, yesterday I was asking you this question that two theories are presented about Khatm-e-Nabuwwat (the seal of prophethood). One theory is that after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), there will be no one else, no kind of Sharia or non-Sharia, Ummah or non-Ummah prophet will come. And one theory is that after him, prophets can come and will come from his Ummah. And in its support, this argument is presented that this is the grace of Allah, it will not be stopped, it will continue, these are the treasures of Allah, they will not end, not one but thousands of prophets will come. For this, I also read out some references. Then I asked you, "Did any Ummah prophet come before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?" Then I also asked you, "Can't any Ummah prophet come after Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?" At this stage, there were some questions and answers again. I would request you to answer these two questions according to your belief: Has any Ummah prophet come in the Muhammadan Ummah before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? And the second, so that you can do it in detail. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 679 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Secondly, can a prophet come, according to your belief? I am not talking about possibility. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is up to you, you can elaborate, it is up to you. But as far as I am concerned, according to the belief, according to the Quran, according to the Hadith, has a prophet come? Can (one) come? Before him? After him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, in the last part, you have limited the belief to one part, while it is also a belief whether there is a possibility or not, it is also related... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean belief. I will elaborate here. When I say "belief", I mean according to the Holy Quran and Hadith, what is our belief, what is your belief, can more prophets come in it? You said yesterday that it is possible. Allah is the Almighty, He can do everything, I have conceded that. I have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said that this is our planet or star. As far as history is concerned, they say a hundred thousand years, and in history, according to scientists, it is a very short period that humans have lived on this earth. It has been thirteen or fourteen hundred years since our Prophet gave this message that it is perfect. Before that, all the prophets who came, their messages, the laws that Allah sent to them, which those people... From time to time they kept spoiling or corrupting, it has become absolutely fine, perfect, and our Prophet is perfect. This has already been said. Now, this life in the future can go on for thousands of years, for millions of years. But Allah Almighty is the absolute authority, He can destroy the planet completely, then the question does not arise. I am not saying that when there are no human beings, then what is the point of a prophet coming? In the world of events and what... 680 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 realities, and according to what has come for those realities, Allah's message in the Holy Quran, and what is our Prophet's Hadith, can a prophet come or not? And before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, according to your belief, did a prophet come or can one come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Prophet has foretold the coming of the Messiah. And in the Hadith of Muslim, he has been remembered four times with the word Allah. And in the same way, the coming of the Mahdi has been foretold, and the Ummah of Muhammad has believed in the coming of the Messiah Allah until today, and has believed in the coming of the Mahdi. And in the light of this belief, I had read out a reference from our Shia brothers that the Mahdi will declare himself equal to all the prophets, and we believe that they are right. When Shia people say this, we believe that they are right. Those who are waiting for the coming of expansion are not those who were yet to be born, i.e. the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, but from the beginning all our elders have either clearly in their books or by writing something against those books and silently acknowledging this belief that a prophet is to come. And we also, we believe that for thirteen hundred years our pious predecessors held the correct belief, and according to their belief, the one whose arrival was foretold, all sects agree with it, that he has come. So this is not a new belief of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, from the first day the Ummah of Muhammad and all its sects are unanimous on this belief that a prophet was born in this Ummah. вя Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is the conclusion drawn from what you said, Mirza Sahib! That (A) Was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib that seed and has he come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We believe that the Mahdi and Messiah that the Ummah of Muhammad has been waiting for for thirteen hundred years, he has come in the existence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 681 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As far as the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah is concerned, you said that he was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, and he has come, and he was the true Promised Messiah. You just said that Allah's grace, you did not say, I mean, it is in your literature. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will say it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this point, you know... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I mean... I announce that, according to us, now all the doors of God's blessings are closed without following Muhammad. So now that I have made this announcement, you can ask me questions directly. Except... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, because of this, you say that the rest of the doors are closed Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Except for the follower of Muhammad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can others come based on it? Or On what basis was Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad a prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib being an Ummah prophet, I have already stated my belief. If there is any doubt in it, I will clarify, you order. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because the question that arose yesterday was whether he was a prophet? In the end, you said that he is not, not in the sense that you are saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have clarified it, this morning, you instructed, and I have clarified that our belief is that the Ummah of Muhammad was waiting for the Messiah, the Prophet of Allah, for thirteen hundred years, and according to our belief, the one whom the Ummah of Muhammad waited for for thirteen hundred years has come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And this point of view of yours that "Ummah Prophet," I mentioned to you earlier that the interpretation of Khatam-e-Nabuwat, which is being interpreted, one is Khatam-ul-Anbiya. 682 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: As far as blessings are concerned... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: ...that I have announced. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I want to ask that what are the interpretations of the blessings, that does " خاتم النبیاء " mean that Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet, is it interpreted that he was the last prophet, no prophet can come after him. Others say that no, he was the last Sharia prophet, after his seal, his perfection, a prophet can come, who will be from his ummah. What is your belief about this, what is your view? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Our belief is that the Holy Prophet is the خاتم النبین , in the sense that all the prophets who passed before him, all their spiritual glories were collectively taking part in the spiritual glories of Muhammad and were less than them. Before and in the future, no person can attain even the smallest degree of greatness, spiritual greatness, and spiritual honor except by taking part in the blessings of the Holy Prophet. This is our belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Yesterday I drew your attention to the prophecy about the coming of the Messiah, and regarding which you said that that prophecy is the belief of all Muslims or others that he will come. In what form will he come? There may be some disagreement on whether he will come physically or not. But everyone is saying that he will come. And you said that according to your belief, he has come. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: He has come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that is clear. Now there is another problem for which I am troubling you and to which I drew your attention, Anwar Khilafat page 62 yesterday, it is that they have written in brackets (Muslims). This will not be in the original. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They (Muslims) have assumed that God's treasures have run out. This understanding of theirs is due to not understanding the power of God Almighty. Otherwise, not just one prophet, I say there will be thousands of prophets. I drew your attention to this, and along with it, there was another reference, also on Anwar-e-Sadaqat, page 65, that: "Even if a sword is placed on both sides of my neck, and I am told to say that no prophet will come after the Holy Prophet, then I will definitely say that you are a liar, a deceiver. Prophets can come after you, and they certainly can." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Now, questions can come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have read two, sir! First, that thousands of prophets will come, this one. Second, that "can come and certainly can." Now, the clarification I am requesting from you is that the plural form has been used here: "can come or will come." If it only referred to the Messiah, then they would have clearly said that only one prophet could come, has come. But here it has been said that: "(Muslims) have assumed that God... they have assumed that God's treasures have run out. This understanding of theirs is due to not understanding the power of God Almighty. Otherwise, not just one prophet, I say there will be thousands of prophets." So, please elaborate on this a bit and clarify the position, what they meant. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I understand it to mean that here also it is a matter of possibility, as yesterday I read the first reference and said that "In "Taqwiyat-ul-Iman," Hazrat Maulana Muhammad Ismail Shaheed says: "This Emperor, Allah Almighty, is of such glory that in an instant, with one command 'Be,' He can create crores of prophets, saints, jinn, angels, Gabriel, and equals of Muhammad if He wishes." 084 NALIVIAL NASCIVOLI VE FABIAN LIVIN So, there is a possibility. You asked me for an explanation. I say that, in my opinion, there is a matter of possibility in both of these references, not a discussion of reality. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I drew your attention to it because in one reference there is an "possibility," you can say that there is a hint towards it, "Others can come after you, and they will surely come." In the other, the words that have been used, and I cannot understand that Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad Sahib would change a word if he did not intend to change it, meaning, if the meaning was not different. And here he says: "I say there will be thousands of prophets." And... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if he himself has given any meaning to it, then we should accept it, right? If the writer himself has given meaning to what he meant. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You should tell us that. Then it depends on what was said first, and what was said later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is what was said later, which I am about to tell you. You were asked: "Can any other person of the spiritual rank of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib come in the future?" Answer: There is a possibility of that. But it cannot be said whether Allah Almighty will send such a person in the future or not." Taking a reference from one person, a phrase from a book, and insisting that I abandon all education and say something wrong about them, I will not do that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, now you are actually saying it is a matter of possibility. I say, Mirza Nasir Ahmad Ji, you asked me, and I said that in my opinion, it is a matter of possibility. I can only tell you what I think. And what else can I tell you? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 685 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, Mirza Sahib! I want to draw your attention to one of your statements so that you can clarify it as well. This Court of Inquiry that is sitting in Lahore, you gave a statement in front of them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it was. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In it, some questions were asked of you and the answers to them are written here. I will repeat them, you answer whether they are correct or not. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Do you believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a Nabi?-----Question." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No my answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am repeating the answer. You might say it's wrong later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You said: "yes....." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I said: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ".....But I believe him to be an Ummate Nabi." Then the question" How are you related to him?" Answer: "I am his grandson, son's son." That is what he has written or explained. Question: Was the first Ummate Nabi after Hazrat Mohammad (Peace be upon Him)?" "Was he the first Ummate Nabi after Hazrat Mohammad (Peace NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 "Was he the first Ummati Nabi after Hazrat Mohammad (Peace be upon him)?" "To my belief, he was the first Ummati Nabi in Ummat-e-Mohammadih." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did you say this? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad: Yes, I said it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can any more such Nabis follow? Answer: "They can. But they may not." I am telling you this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is properly reported? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is properly reported. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Why not?" This is the question. And your answer to that is: "because, according to my faith, the Holy Mohammad of Islam did not predict the coming of more than one Ummate Nabi, or any other Ummati Nabi. Theoretically, there can be more than one Ummati nabi in Ummat of Holy Prophet of Islam. But, because of his prophecy, I believe that there will not be any more." It is correctly recorded? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Even now, I believe the same. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because we were not there. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, correct, correct. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Mirza Sahib, then you are asked: 687 "Can you cite the Basharat (6) or prophecy, because you have referred to that?" And then you say: "I cannot give the reference of the relevent tradition (Hadith) of the Holy Prophet right now, but I will send it to the Tribunal later. One can find support for this belief even from the Qur'an. According to our faith, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was also the promised Mashiah and promised Mehdi". Now, Sir, I have read their statement, and you said: "this is correctly recorded." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtair: Sir, here you say first that he was ummati Nabi; you say, Sir, that he was the only Ummati Nabi; you say, Sir, that according to your faith, no other Ummati nabi can come because of the prophecy of the Holy Prophet of Islam; "and you say: "according to our faith, he was also---I want to emphasis. the word "also"---- the promised Mashiah and the promised Mehdi." So, there are two capacties which Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, according to you, had: One as an Ummati Nabi; the other as promised Mashiah and Mehdi: I was confirming myself yesterday, and again I respectfully repeat the question that: "Can there be another Ummati Prophet after him according to your faith?" You said: "No." So, does it not amount to saying that he is the last of the Prophets? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why not? If this your.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because Mohammad Salallah- ho-Alah-e-wa-Sallam is last of the prophets in every sense of word "Khatam-un-Nabbiyen (*)". 688 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then what is your controversy with others who say that he is the last of the Prophets? Only on the question of Mehdi? Or you say that other Ummati Nabi can come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have just submitted that from the beginning of the Ummah Muhammadiyah to thirteen hundred years, believing the Holy Prophet to be the Seal of the Eye, it continued to wait for a morning whom the Holy Prophet himself called the Mercy of Allah four times in the Hadith of Muslim. And they also believed in the Seal of the Prophets. Therefore, in my opinion, there is no confusion in it. The entire Ummah for thirteen hundred years did not understand this belief against "the Seal of the Eye" that a Messiah would come who would be the Prophet of Allah. And I have just told you that hundreds of statements of the righteous predecessors of the Ummah can be mentioned here, which are revealing the status of the coming one. A Shia gentlemen, who are our brothers, I read their reference yesterday. There is another reference from them that "Mahdi will be superior to all the prophets because he is the perfect shadow of the Holy Prophet." There are hundreds of references like this. If you need it, I can show you those hundreds of references in eight to ten days. Ummah Muhammadiyah, i.e., at that time, what I said for clarification, which was in my mind before, that for thirteen hundred years, the people of Muhammad also kept waiting for a prophet, and all the righteous predecessors agreed that waiting for this prophet does not break the finality of prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You will forgive me if I repeat that according to your statement, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib is the Promised Messiah, and according to your statement, he is not a prophet. And you have said that: "According to my belief, he is also Mashich-e-Mauood or the promised Mashih, and Mehdi also, and he is Ummati:." There are two capacities, and I want clarification on that point. And I would respectfully, again, before you give the answer, draw your attention to your document which you have filed in support of your contention. This is Annexture 6, which is a book written by Maulana Abdul Ata, from which I read Yesterday and....I am sorry CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 689 here to repeat......which is written in reply to Maulana Maudoodi' ..... This deals with that "Khatm-e-Nabuat (Finality of Prophethood)" book. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the page number of this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page number is eight. Here, sir, Maulana Abul Ata Sahib states... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sir, this is the same as yesterday's. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I am saying, I am sorry I have to repeat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The followers of Khatmiyat-e-Muhammadiya have two different views about considering the Prophet as the Seal of the Prophets." Now, Sir, we are not discussing the Messiah or the promised Mehdi. This is the interpretation....Tafseer (explanation): "That the followers of Khatim-un-Nabiyeen (Seal of the Prophets) have two different views about what Khatim-un-Nabiyeen means, and Maulana Abul Ata Sahib states that: The first view is that the finality of the Holy Prophet has closed the blessings of other prophets and opened a wide door of the blessings of Muhammad. Due to following him, all the rewards are attainable for his Ummah (community) that used to be given to the blessed people before." This is one view. Then he further states: The second view is that the finality of the Holy Prophet is synonymous with the closing of Muhammad's blessings. His Ummah has been deprived of all the high rewards that the Children of Israel or previous Ummahs used to receive." So, I would like to submit that here, Maulana is stating and interpreting, giving two views, doesn't it mean that from one point of view, no prophet will come.... Umati (follower), Shari (law-bearing)? From the other point of view, will such prophets come from Muhammad's Ummah who used to come in the Children of Israel, meaning non-Shari, Umati? Doesn't this point of view state this: I am not saying that people will come who will be treated like prophets." 690 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th August, 1974 He is not mentioned. The meaning is clear, and this meaning I derive from it is that, according to one point of view, no prophet of any kind can come. Whether you say that the door is closed, the window of grace is closed. Others say no, that window of grace is open or the door of grace is open, and prophets can come. Is that not what this passage means? Or does it mean something else? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is not the meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then tell me again, what does it mean? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sir, this passage does not even mention prophethood. The passage says that those who believe in the Seal of Muhammad or believe the Holy Prophet to be the Seal of the Prophets... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Those who believe..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "...those who believe have two views, those who believe the Holy Prophet to be the Seal of Prophets." There are two views about them: One view is, the first view, that the Seal of the Holy Prophet has closed the blessings of other prophets and opened the wide door of the blessings of Muhammad. For your followers, because of following you, all the rewards... Those... Not one, two, three, four, all those rewards, which include the reward of righteousness, the reward of becoming a martyr, the reward of becoming a truthful, the reward of becoming a Qutb and an Abdal, which include the reward of becoming Imams, which include the reward of becoming good servants, in which this is given the glad tiding that even the common man of my community will be shown true dreams by Allah, this is a reward, in which there is this reward that all members of the Muhammadan community as a whole, "You are the highest, if you are believers." If they are fulfilling the conditions of faith, then they will prevail and will not be defeated. These are the rewards for every kind of Muslim in the entire community. So here, they are one, that a wide door has been opened for your community, through following you, and all the rewards. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 691 Are attainable. Here there are some restrictions mentioned: "Which the recipients used to get" And the organized group, the different groups, not one, but four. Their mention comes in the Holy Quran in another place, towards which Surah Fatiha guides: The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor (the recipients of favor) And in another place, four categories are made of it. So here, neither the name of prophethood, nor anything about the meaning of prophethood is said. The second view is that the finality of the Holy Prophet is equivalent to the cessation of the blessings of Muhammad. Your Ummah has been deprived of all the high rewards that the children of Israel or the previous Ummahs used to receive. I will clarify this by giving an example. It is in the Bible that children also prophesy in a literal sense. So this was also a reward that they would get raw dreams, they would get good news. This is a powerful decree, that is, what separates the Ummah of Muhammad from other religions today, this is also a distinction. So here the question is of the cessation of blessings, there is no discussion of the cessation of prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, sir, that you have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I understood, I have told. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because the thing that I did not understand, was that I have also read Maulana Maududi Sahib's booklet. He has not said anywhere that Allah's grace has stopped. In the sense that you are saying. He has clearly said that: "And no prophet can come." And in response to this he has said: "Cannot come." "That no, can come." This grace is related to it. I am saying this because if there is an answer then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is correct, I have told what I understood. 692 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, you read this answer, with that booklet with which there is an objection, the book that has been written in response to it, only this has the question was raised. You then verify it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That book is not in front of me at the moment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No? You verify it then. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I will verify. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because there is no dispute in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, we will verify that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That if Maulana Maududi Sahib has said that Allah's grace has stopped in this difficulty as you have said, then things will be alright. He has not said anywhere, according to my understanding. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is correct, I will check and then tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He has said that as far as the Prophet is concerned, one pillar : (from) is the book, is it? (To Mirza Nasir Ahmad) I do not have it at the moment. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if I find it, Insha'Allah, if I find it in the evening sitting, then I will tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So look at it for this reason. After that, it means Maulana Maududi did not say that the kind of grace you are talking about has stopped. He said this Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have understood that point. Yes, I have understood that point. But, without that reference, what I understood its meaning to be, I have explained. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, you look at it then. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will look at it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, do it in the evening sitting. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 693 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Today I will try to bring that book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now I want to draw your attention, Mirza Sahib, to some more references. You can see if these are correct or if you admit them. In "Waqe al-Bala" on page 231 it is written that: "The true God is the same God who sent his messenger to Qadian." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You see this. And you say that here does their intent mean sending a prophet, an Ummah prophet, or sending a messenger that it refers to the Mahdi? However you understand it, give the reference. This, yes, here what is written, I have written that here which is page 11-10 in this book. Okay. Yes, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which page is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 231 of this book in which they have given references. Waqe al-Bala page 11. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay, 229? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, 231. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 231. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In which page eleven comes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In which the paragraph is ending, the first paragraph, in which it is written: "If these people do not do this, then it will be understood that the true God is the same God who sent his messenger to Qadian." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question is, has the word "messenger" been used here for himself? Yes? Did you ask this question? 694 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Sir. Now I will ask another question. On page 39 of Haqeeqat ul Wahi, Mirza Sahib says: "I alone have been designated to receive the name of Prophet, and other (all) people are not deserving of this (name)." Please verify this as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this will be there, probably. I have just stated that the Ummah of Muhammad has been understanding the same for thirteen hundred years. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the Ummah of Muhammad never understood that in Qadian Mirza Ghulam Ahmad... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the Ummah of Muhammad understood that one was foretold. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is another question. I am asking here, here it means Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, meaning those who are the recipients of the prophecy, they... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "To receive the name of Prophet" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is not saying that the Messiah is me Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Not a follower. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A follower Prophet, yes: "I alone have been designated to receive the name of Prophet, and others are not deserving of this name." Did he say this about himself? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, about himself. 695 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now another reference. These are a couplet of Mirza Sahib's, in Khaza'in, page 288: Although prophets have been I am in gnosis not lesser than anyone Whatever cup was given to every prophet He gave that cup to me completely Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This is from Shia gentlemen. (229) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are Mirza Sahib's couplets, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: These are Mirza Sahib's couplets. And this excerpt is a translation of Shia gentlemen, approximately, which I read out yesterday that: They will say that whoever wants to see Ibrahim, should see me, etcetera etcetera. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here he is stating that... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "The spiritual cups that were given to the prophets, those were given to me in a better way because of the Holy Prophet." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will translate it, if you think it is correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, very good. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Although many prophets have come in this world, but I am not lesser than any of them, in gnosis, not lesser than anyone. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In what? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not lesser than any of them in any gnosis. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The one who gave a cup to every prophet, he gave me a full cup too." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. 696 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, regarding himself, he is saying he is no less a prophet than anyone. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Correct. What about himself? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now there is a reference, "Tashkhiz-ul-Azhaan," Qadian, August 1917. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it used to be a magazine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is from that magazine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who are the writers of the articles in it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I don't know, sir. That's why I want verification from you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not any authority. There is a reference from March 1914, and another reference from August 1917. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Both from "Tashkhiz-ul-Azhaan"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. It is written in it, it is not Mirza Sahib himself who is saying this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because it is a matter of 1917 and 1914: "After the Holy Prophet, it is necessary for there to be only one prophet. And the existence of many prophets creates obstacles in many of God's purposes and government." Please verify this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I verify it with respect to the content, I do not verify it with respect to the words. This content is in accordance with our belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes: "It is necessary for there to be only one prophet after the Holy Prophet (PBUH). The existence of many prophets would disrupt God Almighty's many plans and His government." Now, Mr. Mirza Sahib! Isn't the difference between your point of view and that of the rest of the Muslims here that they also hold the same belief, only they write that the coming of prophets after the Holy Prophet (PBUH) would disrupt God Almighty's many plans and His government. They believe that no prophet will come after him (PBUH) because it was Allah's will that none should come. And if one were to come, it would disrupt the government. You say that no, another prophet can come; one will not cause disruption, but more than one would cause disruption. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is the question finished? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I submitted just now that the Ummah of Muhammad (PBUH) has believed for thirteen hundred years that one prophet will come in this Ummah. And the subsequent subject is philosophical: why was the glad tiding of only one given, and why did the Ummah of Muhammad (PBUH) wait only for one Messiah, Prophet of Allah, whom the Hadith Muslim mentioned four times, for thirteen hundred years? The answer to this 'why' is philosophical. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Mr. Mirza Sahib, the question is that one prophet will come. You say that an Umati prophet will not come, and - Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, our difference is—if you wish, I will tell you. For thirteen hundred years, the belief was that the Messiah, Prophet of Allah, will come; this is the belief of the Ummah. However, no specific person mentioned this because he hadn't come. Our difference, and that of the rest of our elders, is visible only here, and it should be, that we say that the one who was being awaited for thirteen hundred years has come. And our righteous predecessors were saying that the one who was being awaited for thirteen hundred years is about to come. There is a difference between 'has come' and 'is about to come', and there should be, logically, because those were the earlier centuries, and we have entered this century. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There are two things, Mirza Sahib! One is that everyone believes that the Messiah will come. There was no controversy on this. A Mahdi was to come, they did not even accept his prophethood, he was appointed a prophet beforehand, he was designated a prophet beforehand. Is this the truth or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He was not before the Mosaic law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, was prophethood given to him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. He came into this world with God's command to enforce the Mosaic law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! His authority changed, he was told that you will live among the Ummah, but he was a prophet before, there is no question about it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then in reality that is correct, from one point of view it is correct. That is just our difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was submitting that here it is being said that there is no question of the Messiah, here it is clearly being said that... ...only one prophet after the Holy Prophet is necessary. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is what is meant. It is explained elsewhere. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The existence of many prophets creates many obstacles in God's purposes and governance. There is no question of many. The question would have arisen if it was about the Messiah, then he would have come here. And what was in the hadith, that is another matter, that he will be the son of Maryam and will come to Damascus. I do not go into its details because here you have said that an Ummah prophet will come, and we also believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib is an Ummah prophet, and we also believe that he is the Messiah. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the same Messiah who has been awaited. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then you did not say that we believe that he is the Messiah. He is also an Ummah prophet and also... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 699 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Oh! A person who is, is a prophet only in his capacity as the Messiah. But if only "Messiah" was said, it could have been, or the question would have been understood that we are trying to hide the Ummah-prophethood, that's why this was announced. Muhammad, who said that person, also called him Messiah and Mahdi, and said about the coming Messiah of Nazareth that he will descend. And then that debate, you know, about who he is, old or new, actually, this whole issue of disagreement is based on the decision of this point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will read out one more reference, and then I will request you for further clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is from Izala Auham. "And I can stand in the House of God and swear that the sacred revelation that descends upon me is the word of the same God who revealed his word to Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad Mustafa (peace be upon him)." Please have a look at this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is correct, probably. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Mirza Sahib! Please shed some light on this when Mirza Sahib says that: "I can stand in the House of God and swear that the sacred revelation that descends upon me." He is speaking as a prophet: "The revelation that descends upon me." "Is the word of the same God who revealed his word to Moses, Jesus, Muhammad Mustafa." He is mentioning his own word as a separate prophet from these three. 700 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, absolutely not. This oath has been taken. Am I allowed to respond serially? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is mentioning Hazrat Isa (Jesus). Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Am I allowed to respond? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is saying that “I am the same Messiah.” Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, please complete your question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And along with that, he is saying that “The revelation that comes upon me, this revelation of mine is just as pure. This revelation of mine is just as pure as that which came upon Jesus, which came upon Moses.” So, mentioning these three prophets, “I am the fourth prophet,” is my estimation of what he meant. If you want to elaborate on it further... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here, you have only spoken of the source of revelation, not the quality of revelation. You say that the spring from which the great guidance like the Holy Quran emerged, flowed, is the same one that speaks to me. You don't mention that according to the guidance of the Holy Quran, my revelation is equal to it. They are saying this to the world. I am ready to take any kind of oath that my revelation is not a satanic revelation, but rather a divine revelation. How can Hazrat Musa and Jesus be placed in comparison to Muhammad's revelation? If we were to argue as you are arguing, then we would become even greater infidels than the infidels. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Sahib, that's not what I mean. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only the source of revelation... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I did not say that he is stating that his revelation is better than their revelation. No, I did not say that. He is saying that this too is a revelation that has come from Allah. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Just as true." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, a true revelation and as pure as that which Allah sent upon Muhammad. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 70} Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The revelation that is from Allah... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I had a question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, please! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It was that this is a different revelation, they are emphasizing that this is a different revelation that comes to a different prophet, doesn't the article show this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Revelation, which is from Allah Almighty, according to our belief, was revealed to those prophets as well who did not bring any Sharia. According to us, according to our belief, the pure words of God, revelation descended upon the righteous of the Ummah of Muhammad as well. As far as their purity is concerned, it is related to Allah, the source of revelation, i.e., what was its source? If it is the word of Allah, then to say about the word of Allah that we have to differentiate between the words of God that some are more pure and some are less pure, this does not make sense to us. The word that came from God, according to all the words coming from God, is the same due to its pure source. But it has a great difference in its quality. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Excuse me, I did not say that they are saying that the rest of the revelation is not pure or their revelation is not pure. There is no dispute in this, as far as the article is very clear. He says that my revelation is as pure as the revelation that the rest of the prophets received, whom he mentions. I am submitting that this article is showing that a different revelation has come to them as a different prophet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not showing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will read it again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Listen to my answer. You have mentioned the names of Hazrat Musa and Isa in this place, whereas the revelation of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) does not abrogate the Sharia of Musa (peace be upon him). 702 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 And this example itself is showing what it means. It doesn't mean what can be taken from it, or someone else takes from it. The revelation that descended upon Jesus did not abrogate the Mosaic law, but was to support the Mosaic law and to strengthen it within the children of Israel, and to continue it, and to establish the Mosaic law in their lives, in the lives of the children of Israel. All of Jesus's life was for this, there was no new law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there was no new law. I am not saying there was a new law, but Jesus was different and the revelation upon him was different than the one upon Moses. That is the question. Different. The question arises here that this Ummah... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The difference is in meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...is the prophet of Muhammad, in the same way that Moses and Jesus were different. I am saying that I and Muhammad, peace be upon him, were different. Is this subject showing this or not? And it is saying that the revelation that descended upon me is not the revelation that descended upon Muhammad, peace be upon him. It is pure like that." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the difference in meaning is taken, then no. But if the difference in words is taken, then it is correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, in words. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, a verbal difference, meaning the Promised Messiah, peace be upon him, whom we consider a follower prophet, was told through revelation that: *Yaqeemu Deen* Regarding him, it was said that to establish the religion of Islam... *Yaqeemu Deen wa Yuhee ad-Deen wa Yuqeemu ash-Shariah* ...and to revive the religion and to establish the Sharia of Muhammad. This... this is the task entrusted to him, and under this position, the revelation of Allah will descend, which will explain to the people the bright teachings of the Sharia of Muhammad, and in the light of the Sharia of Muhammad, the Great Quran, in the light of this revelation, he will prove to the world that the religion of Islam is true. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 703 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, can a person not do this without claiming to be a prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He can. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He can? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely he can. This..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since you stated yesterday that the revelation is to a saint, a wali... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He can. But since you were a prophet, you gave those examples. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I just... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely he can. Every... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If so, then the Sharia is the same... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they are from the Ummah of Muhammad, and they have only come to do the work... ...that they could have done as a Muhaddith, as a saint, as an elder, after gaining enlightenment through the revelation of Allah, so what is the benefit of this prophethood? What was Allah's intention in this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, our belief is that Allah called you a "Prophet," so after this belief, how can I dare to ask why Allah did this? Only Allah can tell. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Mirza Sahib! I will ask some more questions on this after a while, because many questions come up, and we go into something else. My effort is, and I have troubled you as well, this thing has been going on for so many days. Then more questions come up, which I will come to later, about what is in the Hadith about the Mahdi who was to come, or the Messiah who was to come, that he will be the son of Mary, he will come to Damascus, these things, I am not going to that stage, because I know that you also have your own answers in it. But we... 704 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 These things are for the record so that there are no mistakes. There will be a need for clarification. That's why I will ask some questions later. (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! There was another article about which I had asked you some questions, and I submitted that according to my understanding, what I have read of your literature a little bit, or the questions that the honorable members of the assembly have given me to ask, they indicate that you, that you... (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman, I request that the members should pay attention because my question.... I will wait till they have concluded the discussion, then I will proceed. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: that your party has always adapted a separatist tendency, has always had a tendency toward separation. You have considered yourselves different from Muslims, considered yourselves a separate Ummah. You have already clarified this somewhat. I wanted you to be clear about what I am asking you questions about. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And it has been your effort to be treated separately, you are separate. And in this regard, there are one or two references to which I want to draw your attention. One is Al-Fadl, July 6, 1939, July 16, 1949. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the information that I have been given. That may be mixed up. According to that, these are attributed to your Khalifat-ul-Thani, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Sahib. He states in one of his sermons that was published in Al-Fadl, the date of which is July 6th. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 705 people, and here in brackets, it says (Ahmadi). I don't know if it's in the bracket there or not. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will see. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will see. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. People are worried about why they are opposed. People say why they are opposed, why they are hurt. But if the reason for hurting is that they are our prey, then they should not worry. And they should not worry of any kind, nor should they think of any kind. Rather, we should be happy that the enemy..." Here in brackets, it says (Non-Ahmadi Muslim), which I think is written for clarification. It won't be there. I am saying this myself, it won't be there, it is to explain to me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...that the enemy" It is written enemy there: "The enemy feels that if any new movement arises in us, then we will devour their religion." So, Mr. Mirza, here it is, what did they mean by the enemy? I am not saying that the correct things were written in brackets. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And whose religion was this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is meant by religion? 706 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, what does it mean? And what will they consume? And then this "Me and Them" "they get worried and they scare" and "they care" and "they hurt". Two sections are separately showing "enemy" two different camps are being shown. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: On this you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, after checking. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, after checking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... looking in context... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will also find out why this difficulty arose in this way, just like there has been a dispute with the Ahl-e-Hadith for decades, or the Barelvis had, of different sects, so how did this kind of dispute arise here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And for the effect it has had on my mind, I want clarification from you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay, after looking... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That this tendency is showing that you are different from the Muslims and you consider them enemies. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will submit this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you consider them enemies. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So today at 6 o'clock, InshaAllah, when we meet, then at that time, this upon... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. And along with this, I also want to give you another... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 707 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Pay attention to this so that you can see it too. This is also attributed to Mirza Sahib, and this is "Al-Fadl," July 1952. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: July 3rd or July 30th? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is written here as 3rd, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It may be wrong, I will have it checked again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I don't know. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because we have some papers from "Al-Fadl" and we asked you for some, but... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They haven't arrived yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They haven't arrived, or was there too much record that you couldn't send? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I understand. If you allow, I will explain it in two sentences. It may be in the minds of many friends. The library that we collected with great effort, in '47, we probably haven't been able to bring even 1/10th of it here. We were not allowed to bring it. The government there did injustice, and a lot of valuable material from the old records, which were also against Christians etc., we had to leave the entire library there, and only about 1/10th of it came here. After that, we have tried here but it has not been fully possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was saying it from another point of view, that when I was told here that this is the record, I said, look! It is a newspaper, its thirty years of record, until we say it verbally, it is very difficult to bring. A whole lorry would have to be brought. So this was also a difficulty. Some things were definite. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, we will check this. 708 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please check. I think you have it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: July 3rd or July 8th? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: July 3rd. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: July 3rd, July 3rd. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I thought it was in that. ... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This will also be checked and will come together. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Sir, the specific reference to which I want to draw your attention, I will recite it to you: "We shall be victorious. Surely you will be presented before us like criminals. At that time, your fate will be the same as what happened to Abu Jahl and his party on the day of the Conquest of Mecca." Here, Mirza Sahib! My request to you is, what is the meaning of "conquest"? What is meant by "criminals"? To whom is the reference, to which people, that: "Your fate will be the same as what happened to Abu Jahl and his party on the day of the Conquest of Mecca." Please elaborate on this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we will look into it, after checking. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then there is another excerpt, Sir, Al Fazl, January 6, 1952, in which he says: "Let 1952 pass... until the enemy does not feel the awe of Ahmadiyyat in such a way that Ahmadiyyat cannot be eradicated now, and they are forced to come into the embrace of Ahmadiyyat." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 709 There may be some mistake. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So this that, that the enemy, Ahmadis influence the enemy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, influence them. Yahya Bakhtiar: and his coming into the embrace of Ahmadiyyat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Comes into the embrace. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who is this enemy? What kind of influence is this to exert? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This, here... ...it will be known from the context. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now again he says in another excerpt, whether it is the same one or someone else, I cannot say. But this is it, I will give the reference. Then it is: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Al Fazl" July 5, 1952. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: July 15, 1952. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, now the final time has come. Now is the time to take revenge for the blood of all the religious scholars, who from the beginning until today, these bloody financial (Ataullah Shah Bukhari, Maulana Maududi, Maulana Ehtesham-ul-Haq... This is in brackets. I don't know if it's there. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I am saying this because Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "(and Mufti Shafi)" August 9th, 1974 710 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN This is written in brackets: "They have been getting people murdered; revenge will be taken for all that blood." In any case, you should also pay attention to who these "bloody examples" were and... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And what is the meaning of taking revenge for blood? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what did they do? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I am saying that you should pay attention and then in the evening, this issue that is before us. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, these three references that you have mentioned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I gave four references. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Four references, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why the one I gave that day as well, and I will repeat it again so that you remember. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, these have been written down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there was another one, sir. That day I mentioned November 13, 1947. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Write down, November 13... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which was also mentioned in "Impact", which I told you about. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That, that reference... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 711 Mirza Nasir Ahmad and Al-Fadl... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no: "In Al-Fadl, November 13, 1926, Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that will also be done by the evening. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. This which is: "I sent word through my representative to a senior, responsible British officer that, like the Parsis and Christians, our rights should also be recognized." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: To which the officer said that they are minorities and you are a religious sect. Upon this, I said that Parsis and Christians are also sects. Just as their rights have been recognized separately, so should ours. You produce one Parsi, and in response I will produce two Ahmadis." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a practical context, so that you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, this will be done by the evening, God willing. I gave a brief answer to it, but they are asking for details. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! According to your belief or point of view, is obedience to the British also a part of Islam? By British, I mean the British Government, because I have been asked many questions about it, that about this you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, those before us and we have always taught about Islam that if a non-Muslim government does not interfere in religion, and there is permission to perform worship, and they are fulfilling human rights, then those before us and we have believed that revolt against them is not right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you say that they should not interfere in religion or faith, you stated this earlier... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9, 1974. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ji. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then you talked about the second thing about rights. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, two is correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So will you please explain in detail what you mean by not interfering, that you should be allowed to offer prayers and fast, you should be allowed to go for Hajj, you should be allowed to call Azan? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All those duties, commandments that are there, I mentioned earlier. One came incidentally, one I mentioned incidentally later that some are the commands of Islam that one must do. Some commands are that it is permissible, meaning permissible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not obligatory? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not obligatory. So the government, which is an Islamic command that one must do, does not interfere in those commands. In this government, rebellion against this government is not permissible according to our belief, nor from us... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, well, I am asking about your belief, because this way the discussion will be lengthy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it becomes clear in its continuity. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to your belief, is there a concept of a Muslim being a slave, that he can be a slave and also a Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our view, the word "slave" is used in different meanings. So which meaning are you asking about? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That the government, the power there belongs to a non-Muslim. I am talking politically first. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So the meaning of "slave" is "to accept citizenship." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: To adopt citizenship and not to adopt it. If you live in a country, where you were born, and a conqueror comes from outside or somehow occupies your country, and they are non-Islamic people, and they rule over it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When they rule, and have been ruling for 150 years or 100 years... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, if someone struggles to gain freedom against that government, will it be considered a rebellion? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If they... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are allowed to pray. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I understand, sir, I understand the question. If they struggle within the bounds of the law, it will not be a rebellion. But if it creates chaos and bloodshed ensues, and many innocent lives are endangered, and many rights are unjustly usurped, then such actions should not be taken, because "Indeed, Allah does not like corrupters." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, a difficulty that arises in this is that people who struggle within the bounds of the law sometimes reach a stage where the government takes such steps that they are forced to overstep the boundaries of the law. I want to draw your attention to the days of the Pakistan Movement, where continuous struggle was ongoing for six years, there were talks, there were negotiations, demonstrations in legal form, but in the end, the British said and indicated that they would hand over the entire government to Congress or the Hindus. Whatever promises they had made with us, with the Muslim League, or with the Muslims, they went back on them. They went back on the interim government, they went back on the scheme, they went back on the interim scheme. So, a stage came when Quaid-e-Azam also said, "Direct Action." 714 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 That means no longer the constitutional struggle. And as a result of that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know whether 'direct action' means what you say. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. I mean that what I say may be subject to correction_may be that direct action was also a form of constitutional struggle. I don't say this. But supposing this is; now we can't...... ... in this situation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Direct Action. He announced. Direct Action. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Like Mahatma Gandhi said, "Quit India." And that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It became Direct Action. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Muslim League. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Muslim League. So similarly, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And should I answer that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let me explain a little. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, yes, that's fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that later on, similarly, the Congress, who were Hindus, their leader, Mahatma Gandhi, he also ordered this at this stage, even though he believed in non-violence and also in non-violence. He... the report that came, and you must have seen, that the British Government published, their pictures, their instructions, in them, this thing came: "Cut down telephone wires; cut down small bridges." This type of instructions was issued by Congress. So people joked that if you cut down a bridge, however small it may be... 715 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Those that will be wasted will be very big when the train itself falls. So, such things were for someone... People on a stage who have a passion for freedom, who want no one else to rule over me. I am only talking politically at the moment so that you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right, I understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I will come to that issue later, what you are saying that the freedom of religion is what Allama says: The ignorant Mullah in India has permission to prostrate. He thinks that Islam is free. That is another aspect. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will draw your attention to what Allama means and what it becomes. Here only the political struggle is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes, we have arrived here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: See in my self-esteem, please. Let me explain it fully. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am saying something for my own understanding. I want to understand your question because we had arrived in connection with Quaid-e-Azam's direct action. I had finished my thinking there because if we move from there, our connection is with that. Quaid-e-Azam's order for direct action. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I said after that that the Congress people had also given such an order three years before that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, but we have nothing to do with that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was further submitting this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. 716 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The people of any country, the inhabitants, who have a spirit of patriotism, first they try to gain their freedom by staying within the limits of the law, in a civilized way. But they say: When pushed to the wall, they resort to war. A stage also comes when, for freedom, "when pushed to the wall, they resort to war" happens. You say that this is forbidden. I want this only from a political point of view, leave religion aside for the time being... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Under what order did Quaid-e-Azam give the details of the Direct Action, what order, what to do? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, Mirza Sahib! I submitted that it is possible that he said to remain within the boundaries of the constitution. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, my meaning is that I said that because when you referenced Quaid-e-Azam, may Allah reward him, he served the nation greatly, so I just wanted to say that the next things are... ...are disconnected. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will then repeat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When Quaid-e-Azam spoke of Direct Action. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will then repeat what I submitted. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said that it is possible that when Quaid-e-Azam said Direct Action, then his opinion was this, it is possible that there were instructions that even after the constitutional efforts were exhausted, this would still remain constitutional. I say this is possible, because it is possible, I was a student, I may not remember. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. MR. KECHI BAKHTIAR: But the Quaid-e-Azam's own intention was and would be that you hold meetings, demonstrations, processions, protests. But his intention was not that people should be killed, houses should be burned, set on fire, anyone should be harmed, no, absolutely not. He was not a man of that principle. But when Direct Action happened, the way people understood it, and what is written, the date fixed in it, in my opinion, was September 9, 1926, or August 16, 1946, so the result of this was that in one day, in my opinion, ten thousand lives were lost in Calcutta alone, of Muslims and Hindus combined. And many people write about that Direct Action that it was because of that that Pakistan was formed. Now you... MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: I can only say that in every struggle of the Quaid-e-Azam, the members of the Ahmadiyya community stood shoulder to shoulder and fought for Pakistan, and here is one (to a member of his delegation) where is that photocopy? (to the Attorney General) This is a release by the Quaid-e-Azam, newspaper Dawn, October 18, 1943, this is a copy of it, from Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah to the Central Correspondence Press of the Ahmadiyya Community Qadian: "Ahmadiyya community to support Muslim League. Qadian leader's guidance. Mr. M.A. Jinnah has released the following correspondence to the Press. Letter from Nazim-e-Umoor-e-Aama of the (this must be a misprint).......Aama of the Ahmadiyya Movement, Qadian, addressed to Mr. Jinnah: "Dear Sir, I beg to enclose herewith a copy of the letter from Mohammad Sarwar Dani of village Marghazar Kurda district Rae-pur, addressed to Hazrat Amir-ul-Momineen, Khaleefat-ul-Masih 2nd, Head of the Ahmadiyya community, and the reply thereto, for your kind perusal. Yours faithfully." "The text of the letter from Muhammad Sarwar referred to... that text is ahead: above. 718 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 "We have the honor to make a request and a query. We are a few Ahmadis here in this town and in the present electioning campaign we have been approached both by the League and the Congress for contributions and assistance to the respective parties and candidates. Kindly guide us whom we should support. "Reply from the head of the Ahmadiyya community: separatists "you ought to support Muslim League in the present elections and offer them whatever means of co-operation and assistance you can possibly afford. Muslims do require a united front in the present crisis. Their differences, if allowed to exist, will affect them adversely for hundreds of years to come." Mr. Makki Bakhtiar, this is what I was mentioning the second time. regarding, it could be about that. Mr. Chairman: The question of the Attorney-General is unanswered. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Beg your pardon? Mr. Chairman: Your question has not been answered. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I said that relates to a different subject. yet. Mr. Chairman: No, the question has not been answered as Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's way I am repeating that constitutional struggle becomes impossible and Muslims particularly find that they cannot achieve their independence in their own country and they adopt methods other than constitutional in order to obtain their independence..... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Meaning they break the law, take lives, loot. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I did not say anything about taking lives. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 719 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I just want clarification. I didn't say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said unconstitutional. I am giving this as an example, a small one. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That they say that Section 144 has been imposed, you should not take out a procession." They say, "We will take it out." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "We will break it." It's a small example. The struggle that is constitutional, they broke it. As a result, the government did wrong in saying that you will not go, or the government enforced the law, which is also their duty sometimes. When they took out the procession, people got injured, there was firing, and a baton charge. In this way, this thing keeps going until it reaches a position where the government machinery becomes insensitive. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Government machinery... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...becomes insensitive. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...becomes insensitive? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...becomes insensitive, paralyzed. And being helpless, the victor, the ruler, has to leave the country, just like the British ultimately had to leave. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Quit India Movement and the Muslim League Movement are all like that. So, in this regard, I am asking whether they have the right to engage in this kind of struggle in order to gain their freedom? I am not going towards the issue of Jihad. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I understand. This constitutional struggle to regain one's independence...constitutional struggle...has different meanings. 720 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 ...can be used. And at the time, there isn't a law to obey. When anarchy takes the place of Legal Government, then the question of breaking the law does not arise; one must struggle for one's survival. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said deliberately a situation is created when the Government machinery gets paralyzed. I said, "deliberately." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who deliberately? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: On the part of those who struggle for independence; they deliberately create a situation that the Government machinery becomes paralyzed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If their first initial effort is under the Constitution... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...is not a constitutional right in any sense? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning in their own opinion? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning in their own minds, if their struggle is still constitutional, and the result is what he writes, then I want to blame them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I wouldn't say that, I would only submit that it is clear in their minds that a constitutional struggle is not possible, now we will have to break the law, present ourselves for arrests as they say. I am talking about those who deliberately break the law, even if it's a small law. They say, "Don't hold a meeting." They say, "We will." Section 144 will be imposed, good, we will break it. I am talking about those who deliberately, by trying in this way, drawing people's attention, increasing people's unity, as they say... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 721 To make sacrifices; some people went to jails, some think it is not necessary to go to jails. Anyway, those who think that the government that has been thrust upon us is not our government, we have to gain freedom, if it can be done through legal struggle, then good, if not, then we will do illegal struggle and paralyse this government and force them to either give us all the power or leave, as is happening now. So, I am saying about this situation that is there anyone whom you call a Muslim or any human being who understands his honor that, "Hey! I am free. I do not want anybody to rule me politically; do not want anybody to give me orders." Now you saw that it was a small thing that Marshall Ayub Khan came. He was one of us, a Muslim, a Pakistani. He gave a constitution in which he said: "I, Field-Marshall Mohammad Ayub Khan do hereby give you this constitution." And the whole country cried out that it is none of his business; we should give ourselves a Constitution. One person cannot give it; now this was our own person. Now, from outside, orders kept coming from the White House that this will be the future Constitution, this will happen. Honor did not allow this; I am mentioning honorable people. They struggled, they made sacrifices, from their point of view, understanding that we have to paralyse this government. If it happens legally, then fine; if it does not happen legally, then we will do it illegally as well. Can you consider this struggle, which is happening in this way, which is happening in an illegal way, as legitimate, or do you consider it rebellion? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well, some of a person's own thinking will definitely come into the answer. From the study that I have done about the British government here, I have reached the conclusion that wherever, according to their version, a violation of law is seen, its beginning was made by the law-makers themselves by breaking the law. So, when the government itself breaks its own laws, 722 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 ...another entity is struggling for its freedom, it cannot be accused of the law existed and it broke it. For example, I give an example, Section 144. Section 144 is not a permanent supreme privilege (supreme privilege) of the DC. For example, the DC. The one who is, can impose Section 144 legitimately and can also impose it illegitimately. He can impose it illegitimately, knowingly and understanding that I shouldn't impose it, I have been ordered from above. The order of the British government has come, or he is in misunderstanding. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mr. Mirza! This... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I... my point, the point is not over yet. When I mean, I am telling you that according to my understanding, in this entire struggle, the first responsibility for breaking the law The English took it upon themselves. Therefore, the struggle that was going on against them Whether it was of Congress or of Muslim League or of any other group of Muslims, my... which I have studied, I am telling you my opinion, according to my opinion, the English Those who struggled against them cannot be accused of breaking the law, even if it seems so Because those who broke the law were the ones who made the law. For example, Jallianwala Bagh. The government of the British did not allow them to slaughter there. Their own law does not allow it. And if there is anyone who says that there are wells and you should live in peace as you should. Because Breaking the law is not permissible, so this is wrong in my opinion. When the British broke the law, then their Struggle against is legitimate and constitutional in my opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza! You have created another difficult problem for me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why I submit... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 723 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to the law that we study, that we understand a little bit, you say the British broke the law. The British say that if I have broken the law, then you will not decide; the court will decide. If you have done it, then the court will decide that too. So, according to your understanding, it would be correct that Section 144 was wrongly imposed, but for that, one has to go to court. There is revision and appeal for that there. So, I am saying that we did not adopt that method. We said: "No, we do not accept it." So, I am talking about this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That they made a mistake. It was an illegal struggle to violate 144. The order was wrong. Your point is one hundred percent correct that the DC imposed it unjustly, but there is revision in the High Court for it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, well, when your question is finished, then let me know. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am saying that, that goes into another field. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The British say... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The law says... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the British, meaning the British government. We have taken that example, haven't we? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The British government says that we have not broken the law. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And those who are struggling against it say that "you initiated the breaking of the law." The British government says, "Go to our court, our judiciary." And the one on whom they are placing the blame, wrongly in my opinion, that "you are breaking the law," he says, "Your DC is the one who is breaking the law, how can we go to him?" 724 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there can be a revision in the High Court. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All of that, the whole structure of the government was ruined. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's all right. I am saying, Mirza Sahib! That illegitimate law. Laws are made daily, they seem alright, but they are misused, otherwise, this authority also had great benefits at one time, and it benefited many people. Even now, some people say that our decisions are made very quickly provided that the DMs are honest, provided that the Jirga member is honest. When these conditions arise, then you know that the matter becomes a little difficult. So, in any case, the British had a system that if my law is misused and you think it has been misused, an incorrect order has been passed somewhere, an illegal order has been passed, not passed according to the law, then you will get the decision from the court, so you will not take the law into your own hands. I say that when people take the law into their own hands and think that the British said the right thing. But today there is an order of Section 144 that there will be no meeting tomorrow. Where do I reach the High Court, how do I get an order? These difficulties keep coming up. So, that's why they say that we violate the law in this way that we will take the law into our own hands, we will definitely hold a meeting, we will definitely take out a procession. Technically speaking, Sir, they do violate law. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the eyes of the foreign rulers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is what I say any...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if it is in our eyes too. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, that's what I am saying that the foreign ruler, against whom there is a struggle, he has made a law. He says that my law is that if I take a wrong decision, you can go to court and get it corrected, if it is wrong, get it set aside, but you will not take any action against it. I say, "Sir! You CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 725 has ordered that my meeting tomorrow will not take place because you have imposed Section 144. This is illegitimate." He says: "Do a revision." I say: "I will do a revision, sir! But I need two or three days. Or if I need an hour, I can reach the High Court in a day as well, but I will have to cancel all these arrangements." Then he says, "Hold the meeting after two days." This seems reasonable from there as well, it seems reasonable from here as well. Then he says that we cannot go to the High Court, it will cost a lot of money. That is why we have decided that we will definitely hold the meeting. I am talking about this situation, that you say that the British broke the law. From the British point of view, from the eye of the law, he did not break the law. They themselves are saying that we are breaking the law, we are volunteering ourselves to go to jail, we will hold a meeting, we will take the law into our own hands. As far as rallies and processions are concerned, I am talking about their action, will you justify it or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here, two questions arise in my mind. One, I thought, will my own mind be compelled at some point that without apparently breaking the law, I can obtain my political rights? Then my mind answered no. My mind answered that Allah has given you - I am talking about myself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad or given your community that insight that even without outwardly breaking the law, in this example, the British can be pushed into the sea. This is one answer. The second answer is from those friends who write with certainty and honesty that the British broke the law, and they believe with honesty that there is no place from where we can obtain protection of our rights, because their courts are also theirs, and they are operating on the instructions of the higher authorities. The part of our country 726 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 And now we are talking about the Muslim League, it understood, and with honesty it felt that the British had broken the law, in my opinion, they cannot be honestly accused of revolt. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Then after that, I will go to the second page. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maybe five minutes are left. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this because in five minutes, since I still had to, with this preface, towards the War of Independence of 1857, which some people, like the British, call a mutiny, so I think it will take some time. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it will take time. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is permitted to withdraw; to report at 6.00 p.m The honourable members may keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Get these books to them. Hazrat Maulana Attaullah, a lawyer definitely needs five minutes of recess after he has finished his cross-examination; this is my feeling as a lawyer. So, for five minutes, allow Mr. Attorney General to have a rest. Mr. Yahya Bakhtair: I had to go to the Defence College from 8 o'clock. Mr. Chairman: Yes. So, this is my personal request to Hazrat Maulana Attaullah. Give these books to them. This is for you, this is food for thought. Anything honourable members want to say anything. Mian Muhammad Attaullah: I definitely want to say one thing. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 727 Mr. Chairman: Yes, please proceed. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: Mr. Chairman! That I am not a Maulana, nor am I worthy of being called a Maulana. And before you, our Peaker Sahib was there, our current President, he once said. I had humbly submitted to him that I am a sinful man, I am not worthy of being called Maulana because the rank of Maulana is very high and I consider myself a humble human being. Therefore, it is not appropriate for you to kindly call me Maulana. One thing. Secondly, I want to submit that we keep going to the Attorney General and submitting things from time to time. Mr. Chairman: Nothing wrong with it. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: So if you think it is not right, then we will not tell. Mr. Chairman: No, no, absolutely. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: And there are some things that need to be pointed out immediately. Mr. Chairman: Absolutely, absolutely. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: Because they are relevant to the questions of that time. Mr. Chairman: Absolutely right, I agree with you. It's just that test them for five minutes sometimes. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: There is nothing wrong with that. Mr. Chairman: 3. Should I adjourn the House? 728 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9, 1974 The House Committee is adjourned to meet at 6:00 p.m. Thank you very much. [The Special Committee adjourned for lunch break to meet at 6:00 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after the lunch break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney-General, should we call them? And what about the Maulana? Let them decide first, sir. Yes, Mian Attaullah, can we disengage you and call them? Mian Mohammad Attaullah: Call them, Sir. Mr. Chairman: Call them. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, can I ask a question to Mirza Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yesterday, Mirza Sahib, I drew your attention to a few references. One was about some elders regarding whom there were some derogatory sentences. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. 729 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you said you would verify and then tell us what their meaning was. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So will you say something now? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. The references in which harsh language was used, to which you drew my attention, are a page of history on which almost seventy years, seventy years have passed. And to maintain the correctness and accuracy of historical events, it is necessary to bring the historical context to light, otherwise, it cannot be understood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's correct. Are these sentences? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These are sentences, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that, you may... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, these are sentences. I am giving the explanation of that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When we bring the historical circumstances to light, of the time when these words were exchanged, then the selection of history, the important points, are brought to the forefront. I have selected two or three points for this, which were important in my opinion. In that era, in that era of our history, there was a storm of mutual harshness among the scholars. And this mutual harshness, in my opinion, started a hundred or two hundred years ago, but it had reached its peak. And from that, I have taken two examples, only to prove my point that mutual harshness was being used. Here is a reference, "Al-Qaul al-Fasl," it was published in 1902, and in it: "In short, the definitive and unanimous ruling regarding these wretched Rafidis is that they are generally infidels and apostates. The animal slaughtered by their hands is carrion. Marriage with them is not only forbidden but..." 730 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th August 1974 It is pure fornication. God forbid, if the man is a Shia and the woman is a Muslim, then this is a severe divine punishment. If the man is Sunni and the woman is from among these wretched people, then marriage is absolutely not permissible, it will be mere fornication, the offspring will be illegitimate, and the child will not inherit from the father, even if the offspring is Sunni because, according to Sharia, the father of an illegitimate child is no one. The woman will not be entitled to inheritance nor to mahr (dowry) because there is no mahr for an adulteress. A Shia cannot inherit from any of his close relatives, even his father, son, mother, or daughter. Leave alone a Sunni, even a Muslim, in fact, even a non-believer, up to his own Shia parents, he has absolutely no right to their inheritance. Associating with their men, women, scholars, or ignorant people is a major and severely forbidden sin in Islam. Those who, after being aware of their accursed beliefs, still consider them Muslims or doubt their being infidels, are, by consensus of all religious leaders, complete infidels and irreligious. And for them too are all the same rulings as mentioned for them. It is obligatory for Muslims to listen to this fatwa attentively and act upon it to save their children from becoming Shias. The second reference, these are only three references, this reference is from "Radd al-Rafidah." And the book was printed in 1902. It has been printed for about eighty years. And the bookstore is Haji Mushtaq Ahmed & Sons, inside Waryam Gate, Lahore. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whose writing is this, sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These are the scholars of that place; this is the fatwa issued by the scholars. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, are there any names in it? Read out one or two names, the names of the scholars. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These are the Barelvi scholars. This is the book; this reference has been taken from it. The Barelvi scholars have issued this fatwa against the Shias. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this not against the Ahmadis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. Against the Shias... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Look, my question, excuse me, is very simple: Mirza Sahib used these words about the three elders whose names I took, and you are mentioning the fatwas that Sunnis have issued against Shias... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 731 against the Sikhs. What is his justification for what Mirza Sahib said about them? Wicked, the son of an adulterous woman, what do you have to say about them? If you say that at that time, you have said enough. These decrees have been given against each other and have been given for a long time. It has come in your affidavit. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You mean. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so that it is short. I do not stop you, nor can I stop you, nor do I have the authority. It's just that these proceedings have become so long. This also strains the Assembly. And therefore, I will humbly request that if you confine it to this thing. We have got its background. You have told in detail what decrees were made, who made decrees against whom and what kind of decrees were made, and there was a lot of harshness in it. You have told in great detail. And I say that the words that Mirza Sahib used against these three elders. I do not say that harshness was the fashion in that era, so this language. The name is Raja, I am saying the same thing, but I will say it further that Aslin. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I, I am saying the same thing. But further than that, I would say that the founder of the series was not involved in this fashion. If you listen to all my words? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, yes, so I am submitting this. I was submitting that if you come directly to the point as to why he said about them? If they have said things about Mirza Sahib, then you should first read that out. Then say that Mirza Sahib said this in these circumstances or did not say it, or this was their meaning which. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if I understand that, keeping that background in front of me, I cannot give a short answer to this short question, then what is your instruction for me? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, then do as you please. I had submitted, requested. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have taken only two or three out of hundreds of decrees for this reason. 732 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, alright. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the only purpose is to point out that in that era, one sect was using very harsh language against another sect. I mean, until the background of the era about which the question is asked is in front of you, the answer can, in my opinion, be understood. For that sake I have only taken three, otherwise books are filled with them. Now, this is the summary of the fatwa of the religious scholars of the Holy Shrines, the second reference, the attached Fatwa of the Holy Shrines regarding Nadwat al-'Ulama (from a member of their delegation) – what is this written? (From the Attorney General) Nadwat al-Nahzeen. Publisher: Maulvi Amin Abdul Rahim Ahmed Sulemani Seth. Printed at Gulzar Husni, located in Baithi. 1317 AH corresponding to... This is the fatwa of the Holy Shrines, number 2. I haven't taken more than three for this reason: "They are generally infidels and apostates. The slaughtering by their hands..." I have already read this, it is: "All the followers of other religions are misguided, mischief-makers, and oppressors." Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Mr. Chairman, sir! I want to say one thing, that the witness, sir, should be directed to present the abuses of the followers and others in comparison to the abuses of the Promised Messiah against the Prophet. Mr. Chairman: This is a question. This can come only through the Attorney-General. Yes, the witness can reply; should continue what he was replying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "All the followers of other religions are misguided, mischief-makers, oppressors, and doomed. It is obligatory to insult them, it is forbidden to respect them, and it is commanded to hate them and keep them away. They are corrupt. They have divided the religion into pieces. It is forbidden to associate with them. It is obligatory to distance oneself from them. All those who recite the Kalima and face the Qibla except the Ahle Sunnat are misguided, immoral, heretical, and renegades. From the companions of the Prophet until today, the entire Ummah has consensus on this. Muslims suffer harm from them." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 733 are worse than infidels. Their words are an incurable disease. Their thoughts can move mountains. They are misleading. Satan has taught them false gilded arguments. It is not permissible to sit with them. The hadith says to run away from them. Keep them away from you. Lest they mislead you. Lest they put you in trouble. If they get sick, do not visit them. If they die, do not go to the funeral. Do not even greet them. Do not sit with them. Do not eat with them. Do not give them water, do not marry them. Do not offer funeral prayers for them. Do not pray with them. The Prophet is disgusted with them. They are unrelated to the Prophet. They are all destined for hell. They have taken the rope of Islam off their necks. Beware of them. Whoever turns away from them with hatred, his heart will be filled with peace and contentment. Whoever insults them, Allah Almighty will raise him a hundred degrees in Paradise. They are nature lovers, heretics. Enemies of religion. They are all vile, infidels, apostates. Their utterance of the Kalama and prayer towards the Qibla are merely useless and their interpretations are utterly rejected. Whoever doubts their disbelief is himself an infidel. They are out of the realm of religion. Pure heretics. Outside of Islam and the nation. I leave this to the next page 74. It is clear to me in what manner it is. The third fatwa is against the Barelvis. It was against the Shias, wasn't it? I told you I have only taken three samples: According to us Muhammadis This is a fatwa against the Barelvis: According to us Muhammadis, all the scholars and dervishes of the Hanafi school of thought, such as Khawaja Moinuddin Ajmeri, Khawaja Qutbuddin Dehlavi, Baba Farid Shakar Ganj Pak Pattan, Nizamuddin Badayuni, Makhdoom Ali Bijlani Sahib Kashf-ul-Mahboob, Khawaja Suleman Taunsa Wala, Ghulam Ali Shah Naqshbandi, Bahauddin Naqshbandi, Abul Hassan Khorasani, and your Peeran-e-Peer Abdul Qadir Jilani Jibili, and Yusufi and Janali and Maliki school dervishes of the whole world, and Shara Waqaiya wala and Imam Azam Abu Hanifa and his students and his followers, whether they are dervishes or scholars 734 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9, 1974 are, all are destined for hell (whose names are written) and are polytheists and apostates, and Chishti, Qadri, Naqshbandi, and Suhrawardi, and Char Pir and Chaudah Khan, what is this? Family....? Family members, all are out of Islam and deserve to be killed. These people are soothsayers and from Adbar and Dhaban. And when Hazrat Umar took out the Tarawih prayers. And Hazrat Umar took out the Tarawih prayers, he took out a great innovation, rather a path to hell. A big mistake he made. He was not infallible. Although prophets are not free from error. Absolutely was not infallible. Hazrat made a mistake in his ijtihad. And the king of Rome and Syria is also Hanafi. So he is an infidel according to the hadith, because following is not correct. Kaaba Sharif In Kaaba Sharif, there is so much innovation and polytheism that there is no limit to it. If we could, we would destroy all the shrines of the companions and prophets, because it is mentioned in the Hadith Sharif that do not keep a grave cemented. May Allah Almighty shower mercy on Hazrat Abdul Wahab Najdi, his son, the protector of Muhammad's Sharia, who removed much polytheism, innovation, and disbelief from the Muslims, and the doomed kings of Rome and Syria martyred him. But by the grace of God, millions of monotheists are present. And in the past, among the infidels, there used to be Ghaus and Qutb and Abdal, etc., rather among the Magians and Christians. Similarly, you have made your polytheistic elders into four families: Chishti, Qadriya, Naqshbandiya, Suhrawardiya, Hanafi, Maliki, Jahiliya, Shafi'i. Your Imam Azam knowingly abandoned seven hundred hadiths and did not write them down. So he is an infidel, and Abdul Qadir Jilani created a state of false delusion. Therefore, Ibn Jawzi declared him an infidel. In our view, declaring them infidels, as well as Maulvi Rumi and Jami, and Saadi and Amir Khusro and Nizami and Baha-ul-Haq Mamani, who were Hanafi by creed, is correct. And Janab Sardar Daftar Muhaddithin Awwalin wa Akhirin Yagana Jahan, Janab Hami Shariat wa Qati Biddat, Maulvi Ismail Shaheed Muhammadi wa Janab Maulvi Syed Nazeer Hussain Sahib Muhammadi wa Maulvi Janab Fazil Ajal Muhammad Hussain Muhammadi wa Muhaddith etc., your Hanafi i.e. Imam Abu Hanifa, Shafi'i, Hanbali, Maliki, Abdul Qadir Jilani Hanbali wa Bahauddin Hanafi wa Naqshbandi wa Shahabuddin Shafi'i wa Moinuddin Hanafi, from Chishti Ajmeri CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 735 are a million times superior in faith and Islam, knowledge and practice, and nobility; rather, all Chishti, Qadri, Suhrawardi, Naqshbandi, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali scholars and فقراء do not possess Islam and faith. Your Rabbani, Mujaddid Alf Thani, and Rashiduddin Chishti Dehlavi, and all the leaders of the Hanafi school of thought, Chishti order, and Qadri, Suhrawardi, and Naqshbandi orders, both past and present, are speechless. And the Sultan of Rome and the four prayer niches in the Kaaba and Medina are all destined for hell, innovators, and apostates. Maulvi Ismail Shaheed is a million times superior to Abu Hanifa in knowledge, action, faith, and Islam, Bayazid Bastami, Abdul Qadir Jilani. Janab Maulvi Syed Nazeer Hussain Sahib, Hafiz al-Hadith, Muhaddith of the world, Shafi'i, Hanbali, Maliki, is many times superior in faith and practice to all dervishes and scholars. Whoever has seen the prayer of Janab Ustadi Maulvi Syed Nazeer Hussain, will undoubtedly say that the Messenger of Allah and Hazrat Ali used to pray like that. And Maulvi Abdur Rahman Panipati, Maulvi Ahmed Ali Hanafi, Maulvi Yaqub Ali Hanafi, Maulvi Qasim, Maulvi Rashid Ahmed Gangohi Hanafi and Sheikh Abdul Haq, all these are innovators and polytheists. Allah Almighty curses the polytheists. Muhammad Shah, the cursed Hanafi, Mansoor Ali, the cursed Hanafi. لعن الله علی الکافرین (May Allah curse the disbelievers). This is below: Author: Syed Sharif Hussain. This entire reference is from "Kalam-e-Saleem Ba Dafa-e-Buhtan-e-Azeem," Matba Ansari, page 352. This is also from 1300 AH, i.e., 94 years ago from today. Yes, that is 94 years ago. I have taken only these three examples because I started my answer by saying that the context in which those three sentences were said was this. The book "Kitab-ul-Bariyyah" contains a brief example of the abuses hurled at the Ahmadiyya Movement at that time, which you yourself have written in your book. This is "Kitab-ul-Bariyyah," 1898 AD. This is from the time around which those fatwas were circulating, which I have just read. Only three examples. In it, you yourself have written, without any fear, what was said against you. 736 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9, 1974 The edict of heresy against us, which was published in Risala Ishaat-us-Sunnah, Volume 5, Volume 13, was written and dictated by this very Sheikh Angrez. The writer of the edict, meaning Mian Sahib, uses the following words about me: "He is outside of Ahl-e-Sunnat, his practical way is that of the heretics, Batiniyyah, etc., the way of the wealthy. His claims, publications, speeches, and this heretical way make him one of the deceivers mentioned in the hadith. We can call him a deceiver, his followers are of the same nature, quarrelsome, fabricating lies against God, using interpretations of heresy, distortion, falsehood, and deception. A deceiver, ignorant, foolish, a follower of heresy and deviation." Then Sheikh Muhammad Hussain Batalvi wrote in Ishaat-us-Sunnah, from the first to the sixth, Volume 16, 1893: "A hidden enemy of Islam, a contemporary liar and deceiver, astrologer, spiritualist, soothsayer, alchemist, Jafri (is he Jafri?), Bhangil, Phakkar, Alarpovio, his designating death as a sign is support and agreement with Satan. A cunning, liar, deceiver, accursed, insolent Sheikh, a deceiver among deceivers and a deceiver, traitor, full of mischief (?). A cunning, liar, great liar, humiliated and disgraced, rejected, faithless, black-faced, like Musaylimah and Aswad, leader of the heretics, Abdur Rahim Valdananir - deserving of thousands of curses. Subject to thousands of curses from God, angels, and Muslims... a liar. A deceiver, an open fabricator against Allah, whose inspiration is nocturnal emission, a confirmed liar, accursed, infidel, deceiver, trickster, a great liar, faithless, shameless, fraud, trickster, leader of the Bhangiwi and bazaar cities, an atheist, more foolish than the fools of the world, whose God is the teacher of the kingdom of Satan, a perverter, a Jew, a brother of Christians, a loss of water, a loss of measure, a robber, bloodshedder, shameless, faithless, cunning, Tazzar, whose guide is Satan, may the curse be upon him, one who adopts the manners of bazaar cities, chohars, animals, and wild beasts, a master of deceit, trickery, and deception, whose group is rowdy, immoral, lying, adulterous, alcoholic, consumer of people's wealth, a deceiver who lures Muslims into a trap, looting and consuming their wealth. Saying this in such a question and answer is a sign of illegitimacy. His followers are losers, devoid of understanding." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 737 This is the Fatwa that was published by the Ghaznavis. He is the claimant of those matters, an opponent of the Messenger of God. Among those about whom the Messenger of Allah said that at the end of time, deceitful liars will appear, save yourselves from them so that they do not mislead you and lead you astray. This Qadiani is worse than Jews, Hindus, and Christians. Ahmad bin Abdullah Ghaznavi, page 201: My statement about Qadiani is the same as Ibn Taymiyyah's. Just as the prophets (peace be upon them) are the best of all people, so the worst of all people are those who are not prophets and claim to be prophets by resembling the prophets. They are the worst of creatures, more vile than all people, and will be thrown into the fire. Ahmad bin Abdullah Ghaznavi, page 202: Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani is a deviant, impure, and corrupt person. He is lost and misguided. And one who misleads people, a hidden apostate, indeed, he is more misguided than that devil of his with whom he is playing. If this person dies with such a belief, then his funeral prayer should not be offered, nor should he be buried in a Muslim graveyard." In 1314 AH, Abdul Haq Ghaznavi wrote this: Deceitful, liar, disgraced, wicked, cursed devil, faithless, humiliated, wretched, a completely ruined infidel. The collar of curse is the garland around his neck. The shoe of abuse and taunt fell on his head. One who makes unwarranted interpretations. He should die of shame after eating poison. He talks nonsense. Disgraced and ashamed forever. May Allah's curse be upon him. One who publishes false advertisements. All his efforts are in vain." Then, on July 23, 1892, these Fatwas were issued regarding the founder of the Ahmadiyya series: Mirza Sahib is a deceiver and a misleader. Mirza Sahib abandons Friday and congregational prayers, his promises are broken, and he is far away from the character of Muhammad. Mirza Sahib is cunning, a false claimant. Mirza Sahib is clever and a pederast. Mirza Sahib is extravagant, wasteful, and a trickster." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 38 Following this, is the fatwa of 312, from page one to eight. I am reading this from "Kitab-ul-Valiya." The original reference is the same: Qadiani, Rafzi, Qadiani, Rafzi, without a spiritual guide, Dajjal (Antichrist), Yazid, his followers are Yazidi, troublemakers, mischief-makers, oppressors, destroyers, black-faced, shameless, foolish, liar, Khariji, brother, verbose, false prophet, rogue, greedy, liar, infidel, slanderer, heretic, deceitful builder, one, nonsensical, uncivilized, a man of polytheistic thought. His village is ominous. His deceptions, cunning, and falsehoods are as clear as the sun. His books are such that destroy faith and religion. Then Muhammad Raza Shirazi wrote: Mirza is a liar. Slanderer, verbose, destroyer, cunning, sword-bearer, self-willed, false prophet, misguided, naive, pointless, absurd, nonsensical, verbose liar, liar, false speaker, shameless, troublemaker, liar, founder of the apostate nation, speaker of nonsense, inviter to the wicked nation, rebellious by nature, rejected from the divine court, lost the right path, of poor understanding, one who indulges in intoxication, a king of desires, drowned in the well of error, and caught in the conspiracy of misguidance, trapped in falsehood and arrogance, a speaker of false notions. His community is in error and misguidance. His correspondence is entirely futile and vulgar. His arguments are filled with abuse and curses. Mirza is defeated and broken-winged. His words are nonsense and gibberish. He is a misguided rich man. There are absurdities in his writings. The evil thoughts in his mind are rotten. His aim is oppression and tyranny. He brings abuse, curses, and slander, presenting arguments of false accusations and lies. He has no argument except indecency and disgrace. This liar will go to hell. Darkness, infidelity, and tyranny are in the world because of him." This was the background in which we have now seen those three sentences to which my attention was drawn. First, we take, I am taking, Saudullah Ludhianvi. You wrote a poem about him: A gift of philosophy, With truthfulness, The flame of Khurmi is ignited between the singers. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION And in Anjam Atham, there is a note about it in the order of 1906, in which the translation of "Ibn Habbi" is also given. And that is, "O rebellious man, this rebellious one," which means "Ibn Bagha," I will say something more about it later with dictionary etc. Akhbar Ahl-e-Hadith 26 July 1912, this Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib, this Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib is a very famous debater. He wrote in his newspaper Al-Hadith, July 26, 1913: Meaning of the meaning of " Ahl-e-Hadith, he wrote "Baghi" meaning, below it, what its meaning is: Disobedience and rebellion against the ruler of the time, the king of the time, the chieftain of the tribe, etc. In Al-Hadith, the same meaning of "rebellion" has come, of "Bagha". You wrote about Saadullah in "Tatimah Haqiqatul-Wahi," the founder of the Ahmadiyya series, I (Saadullah Ludhianvi, it is mentioned here) was very patient with his foul language. And I kept restraining myself. But when he crossed the limit and his inner filth broke completely, then I used those words in his favor with good intentions, which were fitting for him. Although those words, as mentioned in the above words, are apparently somewhat harsh, but they are not in the category of defamation. But they are according to the facts and were written at the time of need. And every prophet was wise. (This is followed by an example of earlier prophets) But all of them had to use their words about their enemies regarding the events. All the prophets and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) are our good examples. (This is a reference to uswa). All of them had to use their words about their enemies regarding the events. Tatimah Haqiqatul-Wahi 20 and 21 pages. This incident of Saadullah Sahib - Iqbal Sahib also heard about it and he wrote a poem. It is quite good. These four or five verses I have taken from it, four verses. And this poem was published in Mutiyul Haq, Delhi in September 1915. At that time, Allama Iqbal was studying in F.A., was in the F.A. class, in Convent Mission School Sialkot. He wrote this. 740 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN. August 9, 1974 Addressing Maulvi Saadi, he wrote the following about this incident: "Wow Saadi, see your dirty mouth Your appreciation will be great among the sweepers Saadi, your argument is no less than a toilet Dust-sweepers like your poetry recitation Pearls fall from your mouth sometimes Your sweeper woman is tired of your life You became brothers of the Christian community in an instant Wow, how kind you are to Islam" These verses of Allama Iqbal were said in favor of Saadullah Ludhianvi in ​​1911. The second example you gave was of the Golra Sharif people. I have explained that background. That is in our mind at the moment. These Golra Sharif people, the Golra Sharif people wrote another poem attributed to them anyway. A poem written in Saif-e-Chishtiai. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, that is a reference to Saif-e-Chishtiai, he wrote a poem. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He wrote a poem that is published in Saif-e-Chishtiai, he himself is a poet. That's the same thing. Saif-e-Chishtiai. He has a book. He has a poem in his book Saif-e-Chishtiai, he has published in his book. In it he writes: "O Mirza, your compilation sees the condition of this and that Give light to the eye of your heart so that you may see the light of life To deny your Imamate, a voice came from the sky" CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 741 It's not a Zair below because of the poetry. May you happily turn to God and see your enemies. Now this is the next verse. Listener. I read the previous one because it would be wrong to assume that he is addressing Hazrat Mirza Sahib: The earth hates you, and the heavens weep at your condition. The earth hates you, and anger makes tears flow from the eyes of the heavens. The angels near Allah are cursing you; you are being cursed. In response to this, Hazrat Masih Maud (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) wrote: أتَانِي كِتَابُ مِنْ كَلوب يوضّيرو كِتَابُ خَيْك كل اقارب يا برو فَقُلْتُ He said: "The angels in the sky curse you." In response, he simply said: Heavenly curse. He had a student named Maulvi Abdul Ahad Khanpuri, who belonged to Golra Sharif, who wrote this poem. He had a student named Maulvi Abdul Ahad Khanpuri, and he wrote a book. He turned away from them and gave insults without dots to his former leader and guide. I will not read any of them; I only want to give this reference in the excerpt. Many excerpts were written, but I don't like them. Let them and their students deal with it. And the third reference. This reference. Yes, yes, there were also a few words about Janab Rashid Ahmad Sahib Gangohi, which you mentioned. He is number 3. I have already read the fatwas that others issued about him at that time. And I was explaining the context of that time. He issued a fatwa against the founder of the series, which was published in Ishaat-us-Sunnah, Volume 13, page 156. 742 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 "...Isha'at-us-Sunnah," which was a paper by Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi. In it, a fatwa (religious edict) of his was published. Anyone whose beliefs are like those in the question, someone asked a question, he is misguided. He has nothing to do with Ibn Maryam (Jesus). He is but a likeness and warner of the Dajjal (Antichrist). About him, in Anjam Atham, that last sentence that you read: "Wa Akherhum Shaitan Al A’ma" (And the last of them is a blind devil) They said he is Dajjal. He said that the curse of Allah... Let me clarify one thing here, "cursed" is not from oneself, the actual meaning of "cursed" is that Allah curses. It is a bad prayer. And when a task is entrusted to Allah, then Allah is not unjust. If it is a wrong prayer, then He rejects it and throws it back in the face of the one who made the prayer. So, a bad prayer was made against them, for them, that the curse of Allah be upon them. If this prayer is wrong, then it will be thrown back in their face. But as for him, Janab Rasheed Ahmad Sahib Gangohi, the people of that time who held him, that is the Deobandi religion. The fatwas against him, I will read one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are you not reading about Mirza Sahib as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, shouldn't I read? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, are there no others about Mirza Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, you only pointed out three. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I wanted to ask, have you already read those fatwas, in my opinion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Okay. Then one is right. I want to clarify one thing. That name came up, "Zurriyat-ul-Baghaya" (offspring of prostitutes). "Zurriyat-ul-Baghaya" as we take it in the meaning of Arabic. It is an Arabic word "Zurriyat-ul-Baghaya" in Ayeena-e-Kamalat-e-Islam... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 743 In 1893, the term "Zurriyat-ul-Baghaya" was used in "Aina Kamalat-e-Islam," published in 1894. There is no translation provided: "أَلَا ذُرِّيَةُ الْبَغَايَةِ الَّذِينَ خَتَمَ اللهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يُنصَرُونَ." It only states that "Zurriyat-ul-Baghaya" are those whose hearts Allah has sealed, stamping a seal upon them. The meaning of "Baghaya" in every dictionary is written as "disobedience" and "rebellion." The newspaper "Al-Hadith" states that the meaning of "Dani" in short, as I mentioned before, is "rebellious person." In "Kafi Kulayni," part two, Kitab-ul-Rauza, published by Naval Kishore Press, Lucknow, Imam Muhammad Baqir (may Allah be pleased with him) says, this is Imam Baqir's saying there: م قَالَ يَا أَبَا حَمْزَةَ إِنَّ النَّاسَ كُلُّهُمْ أَوْلَادُ اللبَغَايَهِ. مَا خَلَا حِيْتِنَا So here too, the meaning taken is "rebellious": "Because everyone except us is rebellious." Newspaper Mujahid Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whose newspaper is this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This was a newspaper of Majlis-e-Ahrar, Majlis-e-Ahrar. Its name is newspaper "Mujahid" of March 14, 1936. Inside it is this phrase: "Walad-ul-Baghaya, Ibn-ul-Haram," and "Wal-ul-Haram, Ibn-ul-Halal" and "Bint-ul-Halal," etc., are all Arab and worldwide idioms. A person who abandons good and goes towards wickedness, even if his lineage is correct (meaning he is not illegitimate), despite his lineage being correct, is called "Ibn-ul-Haram," "Walad-ul-Haram" only because of his actions. In contrast, those who are virtuous are called "Ibn-ul-Halal." In these circumstances, it is appropriate and correct for the Imam to call his opponents "Aulad-e-Baghaya." So, the translation... 744 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9, 1974 "... progeny of fornication, offspring of prostitutes, by way of curse, by way of usage and by way of explanation, the Ahmadiyya community is wrong and purely to provoke." Furthermore, Imam Jafar Sadiq (may God have mercy on him) says: من أحينَ كَانَ نُطْفَة العبد و مَنْ البَعْتَن كَانَ نَطْفَةُ الشِيطَانَ This is the same idiom that "he is rebellious." Yes, he is not accepting the truth. This is in "Al-Gharwal Kani," Kitab al-Nikah, Matba'i Pol Kishore, meaning that whoever loves us is the sperm of a servant. But he who hates me is the sperm of Satan. These words have been used about different sects of Muslims, and nowhere has this its meaning taken as "illegitimate child," that is, not illegitimate children, but rebellious and those who abandon goodness. So the meaning that the dictionary does not do, the meaning that our Imams do not do, the meaning that our literature does not do, to automatically make that meaning and object to it, in my opinion, this is not correct. Mr. Chairman: Break for Maghrib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I mean, those references, you know, the other ones... Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is permitted to leave......(to Attorney General)... Mr. Yahaya Bakhtiar: Conclude this. Mr. Chairman: Okay. How much longer will this take? It's time for Maghrib prayer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this concluded? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, well, I'm just finishing. I've mentioned that there are more references. I'm leaving them out. Clear, I think the matter is clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, fine. After this, then I... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: The Delegation to report back at 8.00 p.m. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Very well. Mr. Chairman: The honourable members may keep sitting. At eight o'clock, exactly at eight o'clock. 745 (The Delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: The Assembly is adjourned for Maghrib prayers to meet at 8.00 p.m. (The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib Prayers to meet at 8.00 p.m.) [The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghrib Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Should we call them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Chairman: They may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, Mirza Sahib! The poem of Allama Iqbal that you read. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Where can I see that, which newspaper is it? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No sir, I have its reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please show that reference, of the newspaper or whatever it is. Was it printed? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I read the reference. I will read it again. 746 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN. August 9, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no, to me, meaning Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, okay, I'll give it to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. This, Mirza Sahib? What you have noted here, it is written that Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal, F.A. class, Scotch Mission School, Sialkot. This is the name of the poem's writer. Aina-e-Haq Numa, written by Sheikh Yaqub Ali Irfani, pages 107-108, Matba-ul-Haq, Delhi. Published September 1912. Was this poem written in 1912 or first published in 1912? Do you know anything about it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have not researched anything related to this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because the thing is, if the person who wrote the poem, and as you said, Allama Muhammad Iqbal's poem about Saadullah Lahalvi, and you said that it is a poem from 19--, and he was studying in F.A. class. Then his age becomes 35 years, which according to our calendar, and Allama's Date of birth, the latest view is that he was born in 1876. The first view was that it was in 1873. So, in one way, the age becomes 35 years, in one way, I am saying this because the age becomes 38 years. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this, that's why "probably" is written, that it was published in 1912 and the need to write this note arose because in 1912 his age was more. So that's why the book writer wrote this note that this poem was written when he was studying in his F.A. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so you said that this was in 1912 when he was in F.A. were studying. So that's why I got the impression that maybe it's someone else. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in 1912 he was not studying in F.A. The book was published, in which this poem is published, that book was published in 1912. And it is written in the book that this poem Allama Iqbal wrote when he was studying in F.A. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning in 1912, did they address him as Allama? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 747 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what is written here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is what you wrote on top, it is not clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that is what I wrote. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It says "Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal" in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal, that is what is written. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, so "Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal" is such a common name. That is why I was thinking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I say that thousands of people are named Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal. But when Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal, who was studying in FA and acquiring knowledge in this educational institution, he asked about Saadullah... Question Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if you are definite that this is Allama Iqbal, then I will not ask this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am definite. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I was asking, because that FA you mentioned, of 1912, that is correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, I said Allama Iqbal later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Mr. Mirza! I will make a submission. Before you answer a question, please listen to my submission. After that, you may say whatever you wish. First, I wanted to submit that the fatwas that you read, they are calling different groups and sects as infidels, that this one is an infidel, that one is an infidel. Now, this is a matter of our belief or understanding that if we say that so-and-so is an infidel. The infidel that we say is outside the Muslim community, or do you understand infidel as a Hindu? If a Muslim marries a Hindu, then the offspring from that union, we say that it is an illegitimate offspring, this is not marriage but adultery. They have issued such fatwas... 748 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 They have declared each other as infidels. This is one of their descriptions, which is a legal description we can say that if there is an illegitimate marriage, which is not a marriage according to the law, then the clerics will declare it Haraam, and they will not get any rights in inheritance. They call each other infidels and issue such fatwas. I think this is not a matter of abuse and insult. They describe that what are going to be the consequences, as a result of this sort of marriage and that is why I will understand that regardless of what the background is, what you are saying that they used to abuse, it has no relevancy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Ji. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, I wanted to submit that the things that happened to Mirza Sahib by the Ghaznavis, it also has no relevance because I did not quote any Ghaznavi and read it out to you that why Mirza Sahib said this or did not say about them. There were only three personalities, those were of them. You have answered them and you have explained it. I will draw your attention again to those references. You said about Hazrat Pir Meher Ali Shah Sahib Golra that he said something about Mirza Sahib and he called him accursed and the meaning of accursed is that Allah should expel him and Allah Himself should send curses upon him. Then you said about Rashid Ahmed Gangohi Sahib that he said such slogans in the honor of Mirza Sahib in response to which he said that Ibn-e-Maryam has no connection with him, he is Dajjal. "This is it. In response to them Mirza Sahib said that blind, devil. demon. misguided "Now I only want to submit to you Al-Maloon - Safeena Maloon Min . Al-Mahadeen etc. was written about them. Mirza Nasir Ahmah: The two verses you recited yesterday, okay ji, okay About Rashid Gangohi CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 749 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay, fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I said these are the words regarding that, so that you may recall them again. Perhaps you haven't noted them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that's fine. It's available here right now. It's in front of me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, "blind - satan - demon - misguided - السفيه - accursed - من المفسدین" So, I haven't been able to complete my question yet, I am just stating that these words "blind, satan, demon, misguided," are these all used in Arabic meanings or in Urdu meanings? Because all these words that I am seeing are in Urdu in front of me. Some Mirza Sahib has spoken in Arabic, which has been translated. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Actually, all these are in Arabic. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So, that is why I am saying that... then, further on, by mentioning the name of Maulvi Saadullah, Mirza Sahib has said regarding whom you recited a poem which you are saying is by Allama Iqbal. Regarding him, Mirza Sahib has said by mentioning his name: "Son of a deceitful woman..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He did not say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not that? That is why I am confirming it from you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he did not say that. I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning that this word isn't there? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What words were used? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Rebellious..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... 750 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th August, 1974 33 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even "Ibn Baghi" if the translation of generation is in your book like this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, it is in the book, but it is not the translation of the founder of the series. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The book that has been published by your party. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It seems the translator did not know the Arabic meanings at that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it means the book of "Aina-e-Sadaqat" which has been published, it is published by you only.... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And it has been going on for many years. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I admit it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this because if this book is wrong, if it's not yours then because of this... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, no, I admit that it is our book, and the translation is also ours, but that is a wrong translation of "Ibn Baghi". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The translation of "Mafi" that has been done in the rest of the place, by Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib, I am sending this to you. Tafseer-e-Kabeer also has this "Baghi" that "and I never indulge in adultery". Then further on page 128, then at one place it comes: "And your mother was not an adulteress either." You should also see this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, that has been seen. Actually, these are Arabic words. And there is no difficulty in it. What is under discussion here is not "Baghi". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it means. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: My point is not "Ibn Yani" is. And the meaning of "Ibn Baghi" is "Bani". "Rebellious" is what it means. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 751 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I have not completed the question yet. I am submitting that in one place, these words of "Ibn al-Zani" have also been used: "The adulterous son of an adulterous woman." Then, in another place, only "Ibn al-Zani." I am drawing your attention to this because... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The meaning of "Ibn al-Zani" in Arabic is not adulterous. You can ask anyone here; they will tell you that "Ibn" is a verb. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You see this. Otherwise, I am not getting carried away in adultery. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There it is "Ummi". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, you see this. Then you can... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that word is not there at all. The word there is different. (To a member of his delegation) Bring out the Holy Quran. Here, take it. Take it out. Bring it here to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mufti Sahib! I will draw your attention for a minute because... Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: In the Holy Quran it is: "Wa la tukrahoo..." What is the meaning of "Ibn" here? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Arabic dictionary uses its words in multiple meanings. For example, "ko" has thirteen or fourteen meanings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, what is here... Mr. Chairman: Yes, what is the meaning of what Mufti Sahib has asked? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let me finish. Yes, when "Ibn" is used in this context, its meaning is not "illegitimate," its meaning is "far from guidance and rebellious." "Ibn" means guidance. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if this word... Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: I have only asked about the verse of the Holy Quran, that in the Holy Quran... 752 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Ask for the translation. Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: What is meant by the word "Baghia" in the Holy Quran? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Quran has not even used the word "Baghia", the idiom "In Baghi" (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Wait a minute. Translate the verse that Mufti Sahib has recited. (To Mufti Mahmud Sahib) Read it once more. Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: Wala Let this... Give the literal translation of this Quranic verse. Mr. Chairman: Give its literal translation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Let it go on the record. Mr. Chairman: Just a minute. Let this Ayat be translated by the witness. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In Arabic dictionaries, when it is used in relation to victory, then... Mr. Chairman: Explain later, first translate this verse. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the question. Do not force your slave girls in your homes into prostitution if they themselves do not like it. This would be the literal translation. Mr. Chairman: Now, the witness can add the explanation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is correct, this is its literal translation. But "In Baghi" does not have this meaning in Arabic. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 753 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, sir. That is right. Now, let me leave this here for a minute. There is something after which... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you like, I can give references to many traditions in the morning? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, okay, sir, you are saying that. I am not coming to that subject yet. Since the mention of abuses has come up, I am going to another context that those people who were feeling that they fought the war of independence against the British, about them, perhaps this is attributed to Mirza Sahib, maybe it is wrong, maybe it is not, I am saying it like this, it is taken from Izala Auham, Part II. "To raise one's head against the British is a reprehensible debauchery" and it is written that: "These people attacked their benefactor government like thieves, robbers and bastards and called it Jihad." Here the words are still "thieves, robbers, bastards." So, if you understand that in Arabic, as far as I know, in Arabic slang, a bastard "is called a thief." Here "thief" is also used and "bastard" is also used. So keep this in mind that are these abuses or are these something like just talking about rebels? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look at this context. (To a member of his delegation) Take note. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then he will on this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By the way, you asked four or five things in the morning too. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am coming to that, sir, because I said let there be one subject. Now, Mirza Sahib! A small request is that some people used harsh words which you read out about Mirza Sahib, and you said that in those days, it was also a kind of fashion that they were using this kind of language against each other, and that was not even their intention. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I did not say the next sentence. 754 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This was not what he meant, as it seems apparent. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, sir, I did not say that. I said that Mian was used to such harsh words... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, such words. So now the question arises that on one side is an ordinary human being, a sinful human being, and on the other side is a prophet, and not just any prophet, I will tell you in detail, about whom what has been written, they are using the same language, even harsher language in some places, Mirza Sahib! I am talking with great responsibility. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, you talk, I am not speaking yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If the Ghaznavi people hurled abuses, used foul language, and they responded to them, then I can understand. Here, some words about Maulvi Saadullah are that he is the son of an adulterous woman, foul-mouthed, vile, ominous, accursed, Satan. I have seen them. It is possible that they too might have used such words about Mirza Sahib in many places. But from what you read out on their behalf, this thing was not apparent to me. Anyway, the question is that this person... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where is the reference to Saadullah's abuses? All of those were not there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I recited them to you, sir. 281-282, 282-281. Sir! In the end, you had admitted it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, (I) denied it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, to me, I said what Mirza Sahib said about them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes: "Denied it." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is written here and you admitted. If you say... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in "Anjam Atham." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 755 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, page 281-282. You said that these words, "son of a prostitute" was not said, it means "Ibn-e-Bee". Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am coming to the rest of the things. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Regarding "Warya al-Baghaya and Ibn al-Bee" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: These three things are related to "Lalat". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Rest is Badgo, Khabees, Manhoos Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And where are these? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can see it, I have given you the reference and I think You have admitted and answered. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Not found. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then you see them. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Badgo, Khabees, Mufsid, Araindah Ast, and Manhoos Ast, and the ignorant have named him Saadullah". Yes it is there. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yesterday you said Anjaam Atham 282. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 282, 281. It comes on the other one ahead. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, it is in this: This Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, that's right. Before that I have 281-282 both pages Told you, which I have noted here. And these other ones, you see them, Are on 281. Did you find it? Where it is written: Do Khabees 756 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, these are the words. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I was submitting this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That very harsh language has been used and the question that was, was only this: "I do evil and you for retribution wait, what difference then, 'twixt you and me, relate?" A man says I am a prophet. A human being. And the prophet also uses harsh language. If he uses even harsher language than that, then the question arises whether it is the status of a prophet to use such language? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This will be told to us by the history of the former prophets whether their status is such or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, well, according to you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, of the former prophets, from their books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is it permissible for prophets to use such language, you say? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not permissible for prophets to swear, but it is not only permissible for prophets to use a lancet like a surgeon's lancet, but it is necessary for them, but a thug uses a knife in the market, then he becomes a murderer and a mischief-monger. But in comparison, the surgeon cuts open half the chest, takes all the lungs out and throws them out. So the thing, the word that is true, that is, for example, a magistrate, he calls a thief a thief, it is not a swear word. But if someone else calls another a thief, it becomes a swear word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning whatever Mirza Sahib swears is correct, it is the truth? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I did not say this, I did not say this. I said that in the history of the prophets, it is visible to us that those whose mentions, whose words the Holy Quran has also mentioned, and their books are present in whatever form they are, that they have to use harsh words that appear harsh to others, and those are not swear words, they are the reality of the situation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, weren't these words that were used, "Khabees, Manhoos, Laeen, Shaitan" insults? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In their true sense, these were not insults. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In their true sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And we will give examples of this, then there will be a comparison. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, well, okay, you are saying that Khabees, Manhoos, Laeen, Shaitan, does not mean Khabees, Manhoos, Laeen, Shaitan. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I did not say that. I said that in the Arabic language, the meanings that these words can have in this context, that is, it is permissible for someone to say who sees from Allah Almighty's knowledge or from within it. Otherwise, it is not permissible. And this is the tradition of the previous prophets, this is the way. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, Mirza Sahib, and so... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will remind you of this first thing in the morning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you have said it, Mirza Sahib! I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I want to get it recorded here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you can get it recorded. But now my second question is that I had mentioned some questions. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In it is that: "My opponents became wild pigs in the jungles and deserts, and their women grew elbows." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Najam-ul-Huda, page 53, page 53." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This has been checked. We'll give it over there now. This is "Najm al-Huda," page 253. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is "Najm al-Huda," page 253. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In this, there is an Arabic article. Within it, this poem has come: "Indeed, the enemies have become swine of the wilderness, Their women are whores, except for the dog." In this verse, "al-adaa" refers to those opponents who, against the leader of the sinless, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa, used extremely foul language. You say: "They cursed, and I do not know for what crime. Did they curse the loving rebel or avoid?" They gave curses, and I don't know why. Should we oppose that friend (Muhammad) or distance ourselves from him? At the beginning of this poem, you have interpreted "hubb" to mean Muhammad. You state: The meaning of these two verses is: We have a friend, and we are lost in his love. And we have disinterest and aversion to ranks and stations. We cling to the hem of our beloved in such a way that, We cling to the hem of our beloved in such a way that even what is not clear and transparent has become illuminated for us." (Through his grace). In this book, these were the meanings given for the poem. Yes, it has been explained very clearly that the enemies of Islam are being so hurtful against Muhammad, saying painful things, giving curses, and in this text, that which has come, is still in it... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 759 44 "Yaktaloo Khinzeer" and before that they have also said that Khinzeer means enemies of Islam. That is what is meant here. One ahead hasn't finished yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am on that, that other reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, my point hasn't finished yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, you are saying on the same point? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, on the same point. In this book, as I mentioned, you have stated that foul-mouthed priests and their women are going into homes and making every effort to convert Muslims. You state in "Ajam al-Huda," in the same book: "So you people have seen with your own eyes that the Christian religion has risen high, and the priests have left no stone unturned in taunting our religion. And they have cursed our Prophet, slandered him, and shown enmity. And you see how firm they have become in their beliefs, and how inflamed with prejudice. And how united they are on their false claims. And in a short time, they have compiled a hundred thousand books filled with nothing but insults, slanders, and accusations against our religion and the Messenger of Allah." This is a reference from "Ajam al-Huda" 63. Then he stated: "And they began to flow like a flood into the streets of Muslims. And they began to deceive the inhabitants of this city with various kinds of slanders. Then they sent their women into the homes of noble people for this purpose, so Islam suffered calamities the likes of which had never been seen before." This "Mujassam Haddi," this whole thing, this book is about Christians, it is pointing towards their filthiness. There is a yearning in the heart that these are the kind of people who have come and started saying these kinds of things in our country. Against Hazrat Khatam-ul-Anbiya. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can I say something, Sir? 760 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad jee. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is "Mujam al-Mahdi" page 18, then page 20. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. (To a member of his delegation) Where is "Mujam al-Badi"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that this book, that they, who are Christians, they said some sentences, in response to which these things were said. Here he writes: "And I have compiled this pamphlet to fulfill love. And for the sympathy of the heedless of this Ummah, I did this work quickly. And like servants, I stood for this work for the weak of the Islamic community because in accepting my invitation is the good of their men and women even if Rabi'a is with my worship and poison." Then further he says: "And this pamphlet of mine is especially for my people who have denied my invitation and said that this is a liar..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this from 19? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not 19, first 18 then from 20. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I read a passage from 18, page 18. Now I am reading from page 20: "And this pamphlet of mine is especially for my people." Page 20, which is their Arabic translation "Who have denied my invitation and said that this is a liar's lie. And considered my words false and thought that this is slander and insulted me with suspicion. So my sorrow, which has reached perfection, has motivated me towards advice and sympathy and God Almighty knows the intentions of His servants and their..." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 761 He is aware of the hidden secrets. And he is aware of the conditions of the whole world. And I In this pamphlet, I do not find any need to write the arguments for the truth of the religion of Islam. He further writes, "So you have said about this, haven't you, for the Christians, and I think this is especially..." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, tell me the question so that I can ...Give the answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The first question or the one just now? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, the one just now, the one just now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just now you said that in this pamphlet, he is mentioning my opponents, that they have become boars of the jungles and deserts, and their women have become worse than boats. So you said that the reference was to the Christians who were making illegitimate attacks on the Holy Prophet. In response to that... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here it appears that he says, "So much has been fabricated against me, so much injustice has been done to me, by the people of my community, by my people. I am writing this about them." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I understand now, yes, I understand now. And the answer is very clear here. If you allow me, a clarification is necessary. Not a whole-sale condemnation against the Christians either, but those of them who use foul language Against the Holy Prophet, and attack Islam. Your attention did not go to one side here. This is very clear. When you were reading, I stopped reading because it was absolutely clear. "And this pamphlet of mine is especially for my nation." My nation is not your addressee. You stated that the love of the steadfast religion is in my heart and I I want to tell my nation that the Christians are spreading these kinds of attacks and nets against us. 762 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9, 1974 are. You said. And this is mine... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is right. of... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will tell you now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: First read page 18 before this, then 20, because I have read both. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have read 18. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in this it is that: "And I have written this pamphlet to fulfill the love." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Written to fulfill the love for Christians. And this Ummah... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the heedless of this Ummah... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "...for the sympathy of the caravans of this Ummah." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mr. Mirza! Please let me conclude. I will repeat it. So that the mistake that is in my mind does not remain; that's why I am repeating it. I would not have wasted your time or intervened. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And I have written this pamphlet to fulfill the love. And for the sympathy of the heedless of this Ummah, I have done this work quickly. And like servants, I have stood for the weak of the Islamic community for this work, because in accepting my invitation lies the goodness of their men and women." It comes here. Then after that, what you were reading: "This is my pamphlet, especially for my nation, those who denied my invitation. From those people who denied their invitation." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This, this I, with your permission. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please proceed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my opinion, it was clear before, and it is clear now. You say: "And I started it on Thursday and finished it on Friday morning. In one day I prepared it.) Without any trouble reaching me. And I have compiled this pamphlet to fulfill love." We have given the meaning of "love": "I have written this pamphlet, adorned with decisive arguments in favor of Islam against Christianity. And its, its addressees are those arguments, its addressees are Christians, not our nation. Our nation is unaware and I have sympathy for them, and the attack of Christianity is that millions of so-called Muslims, as you have said elsewhere, have become Christians. And for the sympathy of the heedless of this Ummah, and to increase their knowledge, and to bring this matter before them that Christians are attacking in this way at this time," I quickly did this work. I did this pamphlet in one day. And I am standing like servants for Islam, servants for Islam, for this work, for the weak of the Islamic community who have been attacked on Islam, on behalf of those who are weak among them, in their sympathy, I am standing against Christianity" because in accepting my invitation there is the goodness of their men and women. There is sympathy. Meaning someone is related to it, agrees, or not, but what is said here is that in my heart there is sympathy for the Muslim Ummah. Work is being done with haste, hundreds are becoming Christians. As a result of this sympathy, this pamphlet has been written against Christians and written for my brothers so that they can read it and debate with Christians, silence them, and not accept their influence. Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar and the one you were just on, I'm coming to page 20. Mirza Nasir Ahmed, I'm coming on top of 20. Now let's take page 20: "And this is my special message to my nation." You were saying something. Not against them, related to them, written in their sympathy, those who have rejected my invitation so that they. Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar: Not Yakhi Bakhtiar, from that you... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, those who rejected my invitation so that they know that my invitation is actually for the strengthening of Islam, for its strength, that against Christians the arguments that they will see, they will understand that the rejection that they did, it was not correct. And my, my speech... Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar: The rejection that the Christians did? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, no, those who do not accept my prayers, from the Muslims, may they understand that I have stood up to defend Islam against the Christians. And those people who until now attribute falsehood and lies to me, that he is a liar and considered my words false and suspected that this is a slander. And inwardly they have defamed me, so my sorrow and grief, which has reached its peak, motivated me towards advice and consolation. And God Almighty knows the intentions of His servants. And He is aware of their hidden secrets. He is aware of all the conditions of the world. And in this message I do not find any need to write the proofs of the reality of the religion of Islam or to mention some virtues of the Holy Prophet." Because that is a very long subject. So keeping in mind only their attack, I am defending. About the teaching of Islam, Hussain, I have written elsewhere. The addressees of that, with harsh words, these cannot be. I am surprised where this objection came from. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 765 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar Mirza Sahib! You have conceded this, in my opinion, maybe I am wrong, you have admitted that when they say that: "This pamphlet of mine is specifically for my nation." You say that they do not consider the nation as opposed, that this place is specifically for the nation" Who have rejected my invitation. Meaning they are addressing those people from the nation, who have rejected their invitation. I am not saying that this is not against Christians, I am not saying this at this stage. At this stage, I am only submitting that this phrase includes those people along with Christians... are they? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely not, I have absolutely not admitted or conceded that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then please explain to me the meaning of this: "This pamphlet of mine is specifically for my nation, specifically for my nation, who have rejected my invitation and said that this is a liar's falsehood. And considered my words false." Did they ignore them and attack Christians? Did they call Christians "pigs?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The harsh words they used are the words of the Hadith, in the manner of the previous prophets. But those words were used against Christians, let me finish my statement first. against Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, what you are saying is correct. I am saying that in their... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I, I am not even allowed to finish my statement, I will just sit quietly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, please speak, sir, I am now... 766 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad and you state that: This pamphlet of mine is dear to my nation, my nation. It is special to my nation. And they did not recognize me. They called me a liar and called me a deceiver. But by writing this pamphlet, I want to make it clear to them that I have been sent to protect Islam, the religion of Islam, and as a spiritual general of this Ummah who is confronting the Christians, from their, from this tremendous onslaught that was happening at that time when it was written, I want to protect the religion of Islam from Christians with the power of arguments and the power of signs and proofs. When it becomes clear to my nation that I have come to confront the Christians, then perhaps they will begin to understand that I am not a liar and a deceiver. Meaning, the war with the Christians is to make them understand that I, I am not doing anything against you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, that's right, you have said it. I just wanted to say that when they said, "This pamphlet of mine is special to my nation," those who denied my invitation and said that this is a liar's falsehood, and considered my words as lies, and thought that it was a slander, they insulted me with suspicion. So, you said that on this, they didn't say anything to them. The Muslims who denied him, there is no abuse or anything about them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is only about Christians? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is only about Christians. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Despite that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you allow me, I can read further, it will become clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I don't, you explain this meaning to me, I just say that what the Muslims said about Mirza Sahib, that he is a liar, a deceiver. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 767 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: He didn't give any answer to that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And he didn't give any answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Only this that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: To the extent that he insulted them. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He didn't give any answer to that? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No answer, absolutely no answer given. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's fine, no further need for it. Now I want to draw your attention, I read out a reference from Mirza Sahib in Aina-e-Kamalat page 547 yesterday, in which he is saying that: "No. Yesterday, the Muslims accepted me and verified my invitation. But prostitutes and the offspring of adulterers did not accept me." See if this is correct or not? Here, only Muslims are mentioned. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Here, "Zurriyat-ul-Bagaya" has been used, five hundred. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! Is this correct? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It is here. And I have already given its answer before. Yes, the translation of "Zurriyat-ul-Bagaya" that has been done is wrong. There is no translation here at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This "Bagaya"... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This is not there at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you, the one that is here, "badkaar" (immoral)... "...but the offspring of prostitutes and immoral women did not accept me." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, there is no translation here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, is there no such translation anywhere in your books? 768 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And secondly, please tell me, besides "badkar" (immoral), does "baghaya" have any other meaning in Arabic? Has it been used in any other sense in the Holy Quran? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Zurriyat-ul- baghaya" has not been used in any other sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Other than immoral? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... is not even an idiom of the Holy Quran. Used? In my opinion, it has not been used at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in what sense has "baghaya" been used? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Zurriyat-ul-baghaya" is also not in the Holy Quran; "ghair" (other) is there. "Zurriyat-ul-baghaya" is not an idiom. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: "Baghaya... and what was..." What is its meaning? Or it comes in Hadith: "Al-baghaya" is an individual. It is also in Bukhari Hadith. What is its meaning? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I was informed that I should only answer your questions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the committee had decided that Maulana Ansari or someone else would assist me on some matters that I am not familiar with. And on some matters, Maulana himself will ask you questions sometime tomorrow. This is according to the authority of the committee, that if I need assistance... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have not received any information about this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not necessary for you to be informed about this. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 769 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We had received prior notice. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the protocol was that the Attorney General... But he will be assisted by anybody he wants. No one will get up and ask questions on their own, they will ask through me. And I need assistance, suppose I get tired, I say there is another advocate, he should ask further questions, so this was decided with the approval of the Chairman and the committee, it's not that they are doing it. Said. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, I just want information. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, if you have an objection that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I'm just asking because I haven't received any information yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, if you would like to say something, Mufti Sahib said... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will respectfully say to Mufti Sahib that regarding "Dhurriyat al-Bagaya" since the matter pertains to the Arabic dictionary, it will be provided to you tomorrow through the Attorney General with reference to the Arabic dictionary. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, and those verses... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, "Dhurriyat" and the verses as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Now, on this question, when Mirza Sahib states: "All Muslims accepted me and confirmed my invitation, but (whatever the meaning is) of prostitutes." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, do not attribute this wrong statement to us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I understand that what is written... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Did he say 'Dhurriyat al-Bagaya'?" 770 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, whatever the meaning, their descendants... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, not descendants of anyone, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No one believed me. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Then use the Arabic word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, I will say that later, that you will explain. My question is that here, Mirza Sahib says that: "All Muslims accepted me." Who were all the Muslims? And who, when, accepted him? As far as I... let me clarify one more thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As far as I have been asking you questions, it appears that in 1901, there were 1800 or 1900 Ahmadis. In 1908, when Mirza Sahib died, according to our records, in government records, there were about 19,000 Ahmadis who accepted him. So when he says, "All Muslims..." I am submitting, sir... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That according to the facts or figures that we have received, I said that these are the numbers, you said it could be, according to your estimate, there were four hundred thousand when Mirza Sahib died. And then I asked that if there were four hundred thousand people, then you yourself gave a report to the Boundary Commission that you had two hundred thousand at that time. So asking this question, we are not going into contradiction, whatever the number, even if it is eighteen thousand... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No figure of two hundred thousand came up in the Boundary Commission. I said earlier... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Two hundred and fifty thousand? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, not even two hundred and fifty thousand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, I will ask you that question later. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 771 fifth. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Half a million does not mean two and Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the whole sub-continent, Sir. • Mirza Nasir Ahmed: There are very few left there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then four hundred thousand, Mirza Sahib, meaning four hundred thousand in 1947 and four hundred thousand in 1908, isn't this your contradiction? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I have no contradiction... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sometimes... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: There is absolutely no contradiction, because I said that a census was not taken, and different people at different times... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: ...made different estimates. Where does the contradiction come from? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are right, you are right. You said this. When I said that according to the census, the number of Ahmadis in 1908 was nineteen thousand, you said that according to your estimate and according to your idea, it was close to four hundred thousand. You are saying again that in 1947 you gave the figure of half a million in the whole of the sub-continent. Now very few are left there, but still it comes to four hundred thousand, close to four hundred and fifty thousand. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The figure we gave was not from a census. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not saying that, I am saying that this is what you thought, in 1908 and in 1947, these are your thoughts. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: They were estimates. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They were estimates? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, not one person's estimate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! In forty years... 772 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In 1908, there was an estimator and a group, and in 1947, there were estimators and groups. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Correct, from your side, your various groups… Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, that is why I said no census was conducted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No census was conducted, you yourself gave figures? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That is why no exact… that is why no exact… but it cannot be given. Different people have made different estimates at different times. And when two different people make different estimates, no language calls it a contradiction. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I did not want to go into this, but since you are saying this, I only want to draw your attention to what has come on record, that I said that at the time of Mirza Sahib's death in 1908, according to the census report, the number of Ahmadis was around nineteen thousand, "Less than nineteen thousand the Report says." Then after that, you stated that no, according to our estimate, it was close to four lakhs." One. Then just now I said that in 1947, you, yourself who gave figures, according to your estimates, that it is Half a million in the whole of the sub-continent, five lakhs, four lakhs, five lakhs. Out of this, I said, half would be in Pakistan: you say no, many more had come, less remained. but it remains more or less four lakhs. But we leave that now... We leave it for the time being. I am asking in this regard whether there were four (4) lakhs or two (2) lakhs, were all Muslims not with you in Mirza Sahib's time? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: All Muslims at that time in Mirza Sahib's time. Muslims, I am saying from the point of view that we are defining, which… CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 173 Muhammad (PBUH) and believe in God, they fall within the definition of the Muslim community. At that time, they were neither just nineteen (19) thousand, nor four hundred thousand. But here, what Mirza Sahib states is that: "All Muslims have accepted me," what did he mean by that? The Ahmadis? Didn't he consider the rest Muslims? This is the question I want to ask you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All Muslims will accept me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's not it. All Muslims have accepted me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Accepted me" where is it? (To a member of his delegation) Find it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are the words, as translated to me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Arabic words I have are: "الا الذى مين الذين ختم الله على قلوبهم فهم لا يقبلون" This is in the present continuous tense. Those people will not accept. Regarding which, more details are given elsewhere, that Islam will spread throughout the world and the entire world will gather under the banner of Muhammad (PBUH), except for those few whose status will be non-existent in the world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this what you mean when it says here: "All Muslims have accepted me and have confirmed my invitation." What I have been hearing translated, it is possible it is wrong, does this mean it is in the Future? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Have accepted" is not in the Arabic, it is "will accept." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is "confirmed" not there? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, there is nothing here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please read it out loud. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: تِلْكَ كَتَبُ يَنْظُرُ إِلَيْهَا 114 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 The meaning of "manzar" is that he sees it, that is, you, he will see, he will see them with gratitude, with acceptance. "Nazar" is the form of the present tense, he will see. And he will benefit from its knowledge and accept me and confirm me, except for those whose hearts Allah has sealed, they will not accept.) The forms of the present tense are coming, the present and the present continuous, and here the present continuous is meant. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this written in the translation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no translation in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, is there no other translation you have? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. But I can bring you as many references as you want from the Arabic dictionary and Arabic grammar. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Enough. It's getting late. With the same question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Note this, we have to bring information about the present tense tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, the word Muslims came up yesterday. So, along with this, I requested you the day before yesterday, and you noted that you would answer. It was a reference from Sahibzada Bashir Ahmad Sahib, in which he said that when Mirza Sahib mentions Muslims in his books, he means those people who claim to be Muslims but are not Muslims. I read out this kind of article to you. I will read it out again. You said you would verify it and then answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Noted? Let's see, (to the Attorney General) Maybe the answer has already come. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 775 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can see. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If this is my humble request. If someone, for example, one of our secretaries, etc., who is related to yesterday, can also take notes, so that in the morning there is no shadow or room for doubt that we have avoided giving an answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, I have noted everything for that reason. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have noted everything for that reason. I thought that you yourself would keep giving answers as soon as they are ready. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So now I said that time is running out, and whatever answers are coming to the questions, a jigsaw puzzle has been formed, because we pick up one thing, the subject, then the reference doesn't match and leaving it, then I go to another subject. So until that gap is filled, the shape of that jigsaw puzzle does not look right, what difficulty has arisen. So that's why I took notes in between. And the notes that I have taken are only about ten fifteen. Out of which we have reached three, then the session is over. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Today I have only reached the third. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is, the ones you noted, from which I had you write down the references and you had to answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Fifteen? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. I'm telling you, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, then that means if it's said from our side... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you have noted them. 776 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But it is that you have also been working. We have also been working, so this thing remains that it is possible that you have prepared or noted them now... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, some are, some are in front of me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, for the time being, could you tell me about this, Sahibzada Sahib! If you are ready. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) This statement is from "Al Fazl." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I don't remember. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We think some members of our delegation think that its answer was already given yesterday. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, it didn't come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Didn't come? Which one was it? Okay, which page is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that it isn't from Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib, but from Bashir Ahmad Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Firstly, that authority which you have rejected. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that is completely rejected. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, this isn't that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, what is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That which is, well, I will read it out to you. He said that some people believe that when Mirza Sahib writes 'Muslims' in his writings, he means Muslims, no, he means those who claim to be Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is not, this is not even in my mind, this reference is not even in my mind. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 777 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This was from another book, there is another book yet. "Kalimatul Fasl, page 14." It says: "It seems that Hazrat Masih Maud also sometimes..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which page is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 14, yes, volume page 126, volume 14, "Review of Religions." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, what is here? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, on page 26, the last eight to ten lines... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It says there: "Hazrat Masih Maud also sometimes had the thought that perhaps by seeing the word 'Muslim' in my writings regarding non-Ahmadis, Muslims might be deceived. Therefore, I have sometimes written such words regarding non-Ahmadis as a remedy, that wherever the word 'Muslim' appears, those who claim Islam should be understood, not true Muslims." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This has become a very lengthy discussion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if not now, then do it tomorrow. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The words you have read are here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, they are. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That here, by Muslim, the meaning is Muslim, who Mirza Sahib says are Muslims... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have said that the words that you have read are here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, they are. 787 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am verifying. But I am not verifying them in a literal sense, but in a figurative sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are you doing literal verification? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am doing literal verification. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's enough for now, we'll see later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One of the members of your delegation, please note this, mark it here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then here is another reference from me... so that you can remember it simultaneously. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because tomorrow... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...I will repeat this thing, so it is possible that you might have the answer ready: "You (referring to) other sects..." Because I am connecting. I mentioned to you earlier that Mirza Sahib says that those who rejected my invitation, they were Muslims. But you say they were not Muslims. These are the things that have been said about Christians, like "Ikhtireez" etc... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then I said, okay, if that is the case, then about Muslims, he said this: "Tomorrow, the Muslims accepted my invitation except..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I... Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I do not speak. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have got to be very fair, Mirza Sahib, so that I am not misunderstood and you are not misunderstood. Then I said that yesterday the direct name of "Muslims" came, a direct mention came that they accepted my invitation and confirmed my invitation, except for those... who you will now translate into Arabic. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then after that, you said that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I didn't say that they did it, I said "will do it." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You said this, and I gave this answer to it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that, I drew your attention to the fact that if by "Muslims" you mean "Muslims," then Bashir Ahmad Sahib, Bashir Ahmad Sahib, is saying that when Mirza Sahib uses the word "Muslim," it does not mean the literal meaning, the other meaning is different. "Muslim" does not mean Muslim; "Muslim" means those who claim to be Muslims, in words. This is what it says. You said that literally it is correct, but the real meaning is not this. You will explain it in detail. Now I am saying to you here that when the claim of Islam came, and then next I say, "You will have to completely abandon the other sects who claim Islam." He says that sometimes I used the word "Muslim" and sometimes I used "those who claim Islam." This footnote is on page 27 of Tuhfa Golaria, so if you haven't prepared an answer for this either. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I'll take a look right now. Is this the same one above 126? 780 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1976 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, this is from page 2. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From which book is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Footnote, Tuhfa-e-Golarviyya, page 27. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we will check this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you should check. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then... (To a member of his delegation) Write this down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then, Mirza Sahib! I also submitted that on Anwar-ul-Islam, page 3: "Whoever does not believe in our victory, it should be clearly understood that he desires to be a 'Walad-ul-Haram' (born of illicit relations)." You noted this that day. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am looking at it. (To a member of his delegation) Yes, where is it? (To the Attorney General) Yes sir, it is here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, is its reply ready? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will see, maybe the note is prepared within it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then give it to me together. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, let's take a look. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I will read out another one, so that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is the note about 'Walad-ul-Haram' and 'Zurriyat-ul-Bagaya' (progeny of adultery). Got it. He states in Anwar-ul-Islam: "If anyone has such hatred for Islam and inclination towards Christianity, and wants to make Christians victorious at all costs, then all paths are closed except this one. We do not call anyone 'Walad-ul-Haram' or 'illegitimate', but whoever abandons such a straightforward and righteous decision and does not refrain from using abusive language, will adopt all these names himself." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 781 We do not say that. And "Zurriyat-ul-Baghaya." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Is this what he says to me?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This fatwa... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it means, for example, "Zurriyat-ul-Baghaya" means rebellious. You have written "rebellious" yourself. The founder of the series has written it himself. But if someone now says, "No, sir, it means illegitimate child," then neither the founder of the series has a cure for it, nor do I, nor does anyone else. So, the meaning in which the writer says that he has used it, that meaning should not be abandoned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here, Mirza Sahib! Here the question is that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I have just read you the reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I say... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Where is he? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Whoever does not believe in our victory, it will be clearly understood that he desires to be born of an illegitimate relationship." This is all in the same context. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The person who says this, in reality, has difficulty understanding that our victory is taken to mean the victory of the founder of the Ahmadiyya series. And we mean the victory of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, that is why I drew your attention to another reference to be read along with it, which is from your second Caliph, that: "We will be victorious, and you will surely be brought before us like criminals. And at that time, your fate will be the same as that of Abu Jahl and his party on the day of the Conquest of Mecca." I have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is the answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir, I have. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have the answer ready. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not even there. Attorney General Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it's fabricated. The reference of the newspaper that is given, it does not exist in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This that I have read out to you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. You have given the reference of Al-Fazl, 30th July 1952? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is that correct? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have given the reference of Al-Fazl, 30th July 1952? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is that correct? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This kind of reference does not exist in Al-Fazl, 3rd July 1952. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it in some other Al-Fazl or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not to our knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, Mr. Sahib, another thing has come to my mind before this topic ends. You stated that day that the Qasida (poem) that Akmal Sahib wrote in praise of Mirza Sahib... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 783 wrote, I said that these were the instructions I had taken in the presence of Mirza Sahib, and I was told that it was recited in the presence of Mirza Sahib, and he said "JazakAllah". So you said: "No, this is wrong, it was never recited in front of him, and this has been refuted." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. And Qari Akmal Sahib, who is the writer himself. is with. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have witnesses that it has been refuted by them as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So they refuted it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And, and. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean you said it has been refuted. I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are asking me: Has it been refuted? So you must have taken note of something. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. I remembered that he told me that he has the reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so you said that he would have it, that it is the Badr newspaper in which that Adham is printed. But this thing that I said... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that refutation is something else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that I said, you said that it was refuted that this happened in the presence of Mirza Sahib and Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that has been refuted. This (a member of his delegation) seems a bit nervous. They had brought it. He told me that I am taking it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, after that I was asked again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It was refuted in Al-Fazl on August 19, 1934. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who did it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The second Caliph, who was an authority in his time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He said it did not happen in his presence? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He said that this whole thing is wrong. He said this: "If it means that they are superior in rank, then it is certainly blasphemy." He has strongly refuted it. But if it means that the propagation of religion increased in that era, then according to the Holy Quran... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! My question was different. That is why, was this poem recited in the presence of Mirza Sahib?" You said: "No." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I am saying this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That becomes a different matter, what the meaning of the poem is. You see... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The second Caliph said that it is blasphemy, in the sense it is being taken. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not saying that. My question... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am just talking in general. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, that's right. So you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The second Caliph said it is blasphemy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This meaning is blasphemy? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If the literal meaning is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it is blasphemy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, my question is something else. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 785 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And I say that if this poem was read in front of the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement and he heard it, he would have expelled that person from the Jamaat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then it was published in "Al-Badr" during his lifetime, and he was not expelled from the Jamaat. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It may not have come to his attention. Now, at that time, Al-Fazl, the last ten years... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Published in 1905, 1901, two years after Mirza Sahib's Badr. It was published in the Badr of October 25, 1906. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It was published in Badr. And we have not gone through all the issues of Badr after that, in search of this refutation, it takes time for that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I draw your attention to it again. Show it to me. I think so. (To Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari) Ansari Sahib, if you don't mind, you read it, because I am tired. (To Mirza Nasir Ahmed) This is a long article, in this regard, in Al-Fazl, he will read it out to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What is the number of this "Al-Fazl"? Which paper is it? A member: "Al-Fazl" dated August 22, 1944. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is a matter of 1944 after 1934, and I think this is something from Akmal Sahib. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: It has this heading. "Will Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib withdraw the completely false and baseless allegation?" It was clearly stated in Akhbar Al-Fazl, August 13, 1933, that the meaning of the verse which Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib used in these words: "This lesson was taught while sitting inside" 786 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 And it was after reading this that the poet said that when Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came into the world, he came with even greater glory than before (Paigham-e-Sulh, number 230, August, 1933). He has distorted and attributed it to the result of the education and training of the Second Khilafat, and it is a part of the poem that was recited in the presence of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) and presented in the form of a beautifully written piece, and Huzoor took it inside with him. At that time, did no one object to this verse? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They will do it when they have read it. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, listen. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Whereas Whereas Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib and his helpers were present, and as far as my memory serves me, I can say with certainty that they were listening. If they deny it due to the passage of time, then it was printed and published in "Badr". At that time, "Badr" held a position, rather even higher than it did in the era of "Al-Fazl". Hazrat Mufti Muhammad Sadiq Sahib, the editor, had affectionate and informal relations with these people. By the grace of God, he is alive and present. Ask him, and let him say himself, whether any of you ever expressed displeasure or disapproval of it? And after Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) had the honor of hearing it, and receiving the reward of "Jazakumullahu Ta'ala," and taking the piece inside himself, what right did anyone have to object to it and prove their weakness of faith and lack of understanding? This incident clearly shows that at that time, the verse was understood in the same meaning as the structure of the Khutba Ilhamia. And which has been published in "Al-Fazl" with translation. After that, no non-Ahmadi newspaper wrote anything either, and Sheikh Rahmatullah Sahib, Mirza Yaqub Baig Sahib, Syed Muhammad Hussain Sahib wwwww E MOTRANNONA ANDR or He QADIANT GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad, is there any reference to Khutba Ilhamia in it? Page? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: "Khawaja Kamaluddin Sahib, when he used to come to Qadian, he would meet me along with Hazrat Mufti Sahib, rather, he would come and sit in my room due to the business of "Badr". Khawaja Sahib told me that he wanted to dress the Persian poem of Hazrat Sahib (Masih Maud) in Urdu. You participate in it. So at that time we است چشم خود آب درختان محبت را بده translated the poem into Urdu verses. It was the initial time and my nature was also present. Many verses were extempore and Khawaja Sahib would write them down saying "Ahsant wa Marhaba". When it got late, Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib also came and complained to Khawaja Sahib that the work was necessary and you are sitting here. Then he himself sat down for a while? The mention of this incident is to show that although it was the beginning of my life, these respected people did not refrain from sitting with me and coming and going, and there was no formality in between. If there was anything undesirable, they could have told me, told Mufti Sahib to refute it or at least explain it, or isolate me. Well, this is about me, as far as it concerns me. But despite being proven and known, the people who are fighting at the moment are related to "Paigham-e-Sulah". And Hazrat Amir-ul-Momineen, may Allah Almighty help him, was 8 years old. Why do they accuse him of this 38 years later that this poem was said as a result of your education? Whereas this poem was said in the time of Hazrat Masih Maud, peace be upon him, after reading "Khutba Ilhamia", and it was also recited to him and printed as well. So will Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib admit that he is not justified in making the accusation and with clarity will take it back, under which he himself actually comes. This "Aiko wa Tojaddo" riddle no Hadith al-Ahad can solve, nor can Sheikh Inam-ul-Haq, who is of Islam 181 August 9th, 1974 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN have made their position and understanding clear by giving their practical opinion on this matter, and Sheikh Abdur Rahman Sahib was a scholar, because he was a high school student at that time. The story of Eli Gul Ra Shanooye From Andalib crooked And boom Don't make this story more disturbed And this poem, this poem is as if it is this Now Amal Aap said that: "Akmal Ali Abdullah Anhu" Imam, my dear ones! In this time Ghulam Ahmed supporter Darul Aman I am Ghulam Ahmed if I His place → Is the throne of the Lord As if in the infinite Ghulam Ahmad is the Messenger of Allah Is true Has gained honor in the human and soul species Ghulam Ahmad Messiah the best Yarooz - Be in the world Whoever is a servant of Ghulam Ahmad from the heart Will undoubtedly go to the garden of Paradise The heart is comforted I am achieve This is the miracle in Ahmad's language What could be greater than this miracle God killed this nation in the world Pen What he did and showed Where was this power in sword and spear Muhammad has descended again among us, And is greater than before in his glory. Whoever wishes to see Muhammad in his perfection, Let him see Ahmad in Qadian. Slave, Slave, Ahmad, You are the chosen one, And You have attained this status in the world. What praise can I offer you? For all God Has written something of your status, A hidden secret. You are God's, by God, It cannot be expressed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, read it. 789 Mr. Chairman: This file may be.... This file of newspapers may be given to the witness, may be sent to him. The librarian may take this. If they can check up just now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have to refer to some other questions from it. Sir, but the dates have been noted down. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have noted the date, haven't you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, please read the dates again. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: This Al-Fadl, in which the rebuttal is made, that this is correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: August 22/25, 1944 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, 1934. 790 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mian Muhammad Attaullah: And the knowledge that is printed, is in "Al-Badr", and its date is October 25th, 1907. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: October 25th, 1906. Mian Muhammad Attaullah: We have both originals available. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mian Muhammad Attaullah: You can see them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Chairman: it may be given to the witness. And if he can say that ......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they have got their own records, 1 have to refer to some other passages from this. Mr. Chairman: I see. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But if they do not have it, and if they do hot have the records, then, naturally .... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: if they do not have it.... No. (To Mirza Nasir Ahmad) If you do not have it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we do not have this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You will not have "Al-Fazl" of 1944? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, and this is not Badr either. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "In it, only the poem is printed. We will show you that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Chairman: It may be shown to the witness, in original. It may be shown to the witness. Why not? Is it not shown? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You please see it. Mr. Chairman: Just it may be sent to the witness. The other may be also sent. Here. Mian Ataullah Sahib! Leave it so that it reaches the one giving the order. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not in the newspaper "Badr", in which this poem is published. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only the poem is here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I submitted. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Chairman: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib was alive in 1901 when this was published. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Otherwise, there is no note in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, nothing at all. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This note is not in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The writer of the note. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is from 1944. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is in this that it should be read out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That, Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib had raised some objection. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib said something, Mirza Sahib! Bashiruddin Sahib, then Muhammad Ali Maulvi Sahib. Mr. Chairman: No, the first question would be that the witness, after having seen 'Badr", 1906, will give his opinion whether it is correct or not. 792 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He has said that there is no note by the writer. Mr. Chairman: But is it correctly recorded? Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Chairman: So, this note will come. And then that dated 1944 or 46. The witness has replied that he will tell tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtair: Then, he will………………………… Mr. Chairman: So far as 1906 is concerned, it is on the record that it was correctly recorded. Mr. Chairman: No, No, explanation can come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman, you are right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I have seen that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you have seen it, you have confirmed it, and you have stated that as far as "Badr" is concerned, there is no note of this kind in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What he is saying is, except that the poem is published. But there is no note that it was read in the presence of Mirza Sahib or that he said Jazakallah, nothing like that. The rest is, you have seen that they are describing the controversy in detail. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You will give its answer. Mr. Chairman: No, there are two points: one is the publication of the poem in the 'Al-Badr.' Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That has come, right? This is Qazi Akmal's statement which... Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: I wanted to submit one thing through the Attorney General, that the application has mentioned some fatwas today, the witness has. So, look, we supply all the original books to them so that they (intervention) Original Fatwas Original Fatwas Mr. Chairman: That we will discuss just afterwards. 794 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: The original Fatwas should be requested from them. Mr. Chairman: That we will discuss. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: They have said that the Fatwas that the Ahl-e-Hadith have... Mr. Chairman: Just afterwards. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: The originals should be requested from them so that they submit them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will ask, Maulana, I will ask. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Without the originals, their statement should not be completed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Maulana, I am asking. Maulana had already told me. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: When we submit the originals... Mr. Chairman: Alright, alright. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Why don't they submit them? Mr. Chairman: Alright, they are asking. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You told me and I forgot. I had to mention that to Mirza Sahib. (To Mirza Nasir Ahmad) About the 'Tamadi' that you mentioned in the morning session... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...when in this morning session, the session before this one, you mentioned that these Fatwas were given by Barelvis and Wahabis. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they gave them at that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, regarding those books, the originals don't mean what they wrote earlier. The books that are there, please show them to them, where they came from. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Alright. PRODUCTION OF ORIGINAL FATWAHS Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, will they present them tomorrow? They will keep them here. Mr. Chairman: The books will arrive tomorrow. The witness has promised to bring the books tomorrow, the original books. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, original books, two will be given to the library. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is permitted to withdraw; tomorrow at 10.00 a.m. At ten in the morning. (The delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Honourable members may kindly keep sitting. No, yes, close it, please. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Since they had to be told before leaving that they would bring them back. Mr. Chairman: No, no. PRODUCTION OF ORIGINAL FATWAS Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: The point is, no, no, I am making another point. Through you, I would like to say to the honorable Attorney General that the various books that they have also printed, to create misunderstandings among Muslims, to make them fight among themselves. By "original fatwas," it is meant that the fatwas that the scholars of India, Pakistan, the Ahl-e-Hadith, the non-conformists, whoever issued them, have the seals of the muftis on them. 796 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 9th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: No, no, let me submit in this… Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Let me submit in Madia Devband Darul Uloom... Mr. Chairman: Listen to me. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Let me submit in a minute. Mr. Chairman: A minute, listen to me. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Let me submit, please. Mr. Chairman: A minute. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Let me complete my statement. Mr. Chairman: The controversy will end; they will present their book in which those fatwas will be mentioned. You can only ask them one question: were these fatwas in your books? If those scholars really gave them, then are they in any other book of those scholars, or of those madrassas, or of those schools, or not? Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Absolutely, I endorse this that… Mr. Chairman: This one question will solve the problem. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: I want to submit one thing in the form of "Qadi." The fatwa that is issued, for example, a fatwa issued from Darul Uloom Deoband has the original seal of Mufti on it, and those fatwas are published by Darul Uloom Deoband. And the fatwas issued from Bareilly have the Mufti's seal on them regularly. Mr. Chairman: And the fatwas that you issue? Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: The fatwas that the scholars of Farangi Mahal write, for example, from Mathani Matan, Khair Ul Madaris, Qasim Ul Uloom, Anwar Ul Uloom, fatwas are issued from them. Mr. Chairman: And the fatwas that you issue! PRODUCTION OF ORIGINAL FATWAS 797 Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui, the original one, has the seal of the Mufti on it, on everything. So, the original copies should be produced. If they do not produce the original fatwas, then it means that they are giving false testimony. And we should refute it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, I... Mr. Chairman: Okay. The question will come. Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I, from Mr. Maulana Sahib... Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui, the method should be known. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Maulana Sahib! I, Mr. Maulana Sahib... Mr. Chairman: The reporters can go. They are free... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have only submitted that when you did it. Mr. Chairman: It is just our discussion. The Special Committee of the whole House subsequently adjourned to meet at ten of the clock, in the morning, on Saturday, the 10th August, 1974. PCPPI-1093410NA-23-12-2010-4 No. 06 D 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, the 10th August, 1974 (Contains No. 1-21) CONTENTS Pages 1. Recitation from the Holy Qur'an. 801 2. Cross-Examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation 802-828 3. Programme for further sittings of the Committee/Assembly 829-831 4. Cross-Examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation-(Continued) 831-850 5. Programme for further sittings of the Committee. 850-853 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD No. 06 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, the 10th of August, 1974 (Contains No. 1—21) In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. SECRET NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEES OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Saturday, the 10th August, 1974 The Special Committee of the whole House of the National Assembly of Pakistan met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at 10:00 of the clock, in the morning, Mr. Speaker (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair as Chairman. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN Mr. Chairman: They may be called. (Pause) Where is Maulana Atta Ullah? Then you can avail this opportunity full. Ch. Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman………….. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Ch. Jahangir Ali. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Sir, there used to be a servant for bringing water. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: There used to be a servant to provide water. Nowadays, he is not on duty there. I think one or two people should be assigned duty there, so there is nothing wrong with that. Mr. Chairman: Okay, fine. Thank you very much, I will see to that. Do it today. I am sorry. (Pause) Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Before I proceed, Sir, I had drawn Mirza Sahib's attention about three or four days or five days ago to a resolution passed in Blackburn, England and Mirza Sahib said that they had not received any information or copy and this is a very important branch of their community there and then I made enquiries from the Govt, to find out. I want to explain the position to Mirza Sahib and I have been informed now that under the instruction of London Mosque of Ahmadis, their resolutions, similar, terms, similar language were passed all over England and they were distributed to the press, they were given to the Embassy, they were sent to the Prime Minister. So this is a thing that not one small branch has passed this resolution. They were circulated to the press also, but they do not know whether the press took any note of it or published it, They are looking for that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I submitted was related to your statement at that time, I have already sent it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I am saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have sent the letter. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying this so that the information you get from there stays in your mind. That is, so that you remember the information I have received. Information has been received. According to that, this type of resolution in the same language has been passed everywhere by the Ahmadiyya community. And then they have been distributed as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And have they been published in newspapers? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have not been published in newspapers yet, they are looking into it. But they have been given to newspapers, they have been circulated. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I'm only asking for information. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if there is any preparation regarding the request I made yesterday, or any references, then you should do that first. .......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that is from before. I want to say this with great apology, that you mentioned yesterday that there are fifteen such things regarding which... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, small things like I mentioned the resolution, so that nothing is left out, you know, so that later... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I was not going to say that, so that nothing is left out and it is understood that we avoided answering. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that's why it's my duty to draw your attention to this thing, otherwise it would be very unfair, no, that won't happen. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's exactly what I wanted to say, where is it? (Pause) This work should continue. Neither you nor I want it to end quickly. Yesterday, I made a promise that I would look up the Arabic words in the dictionary and present them here. When we left here, it was about ten o'clock. And this morning... 804 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [10th August, 1974 there is not enough time, so we will, God willing, complete the full promise by six o'clock. But let's look at the meaning of one word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza, I would like to submit that if it cannot be done even by six o'clock... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I will by six. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am telling you that this is such a thing that this clarification is very necessary. It is necessary to remove the misunderstanding. And that is why we have troubled you. And we are spending so much time on it. You may certainly take your necessary time so that this thing does not remain incomplete in the middle, so as far as I am concerned, this is my effort. And I hope that the committee will also agree. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the committee certainly will. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That there should be full clarification on this, so you may do it tomorrow, there is no... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then I wanted to tell you one thing. It is possible for respected Mufti Sahib, he may also have to think about, that "Zurriyat-ul-Baghaya" is. If the singular of "Baghaya" has this meaning, then it has one meaning, and this "Baghaya" is also the plural and singular, so it may be. What I will tell may be different, so I am telling you beforehand, so that if they also want to see something, they may see it. (Pause) It was ordered that a very brief biography of the founder of the series should be presented here for record, it is ready and it took time because it was initially fifteen pages. You said it is too long. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I noted. I said if you want to file more, then file it, and if it is brief, then read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Exactly ten pages. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will read it out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: & U Sir, I will make a request that when a record is prepared, this part should come in the beginning when I asked this question because it is relevant there, but it is not relevant....... Mr. Chairman: I will make a note of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The founder of Ahmadiyya Movement and his life ___ sketch should come in the beginning, then other questions. Otherwise it will not be ........ Mr. Chairman: I will make a note of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Brief Biography of the Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement: You were born in Qadian on February 13, 1835. Your father's name was Mirza Ghulam Murtaza Sahib. Your early education was at home through a few teachers. The names of your teachers were Fazal Elahi, Fazal Ahmed, and Gul Muhammad, from whom you received early education in Persian, Arabic, and Theology, Jurisprudence, etc., and you studied medicine from your father. From the beginning, you felt pain for Islam and were aloof from the world. You have a poem: I do not know what I read or did not read in Muhammad's school, I am a student of the liver. Around 1870, you also had debates and arguments with Christians and Aryas on behalf of Islam, and in 1884 you published your famous book, Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya. Which the Holy Quran, in support of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and Islam, has been found to be a unique book. In 1889, with the permission of God, you started the series of initiation. In 1889 and 1891, after receiving inspiration from God, Almighty, claimed to be the Messiah. Your whole life was spent in the service of Islam and you authored about 80 books which are in Arabic, Persian and Urdu languages. And in these three languages your poetic work is also found. The sole purpose of you and your community was and is the propagation and dissemination of Islam in the world. You died on May 26, 1908 and the newspapers and magazines of the country acknowledged your Islamic services in strong words. At the time of your death, you had four sons and two daughters and at that time the number of members of your family was close to two hundred. This is a brief made. This has to be recorded. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it will come on record. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmed: One day, yesterday or the day before, probably it was yesterday when there was a discussion on the reference of Abu Al-Ata Sahib's book, that Khatam-un-Nabiyeen can have only two meanings. At that time you had said that this book which has been written is the answer to Qadiani issue by respected Syed Abul Ala Maududi Sahib and that there is no such content in it which can be understood as an answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me clear a misunderstanding. This is not the answer to the Qadiani issue. It is the answer to the book "The End of Prophethood". These are two separate books. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Where is "The End of Prophethood"? It is my mistake, no, they had kept the other book here. I will bring it at another time. (Pause) I also made this promise that in the previous books and in the biographies of the prophets, we see that sometimes they had to use seemingly harsh words. Similarly, in the Holy Quran as well – I am deliberately using the word "seemingly" – seemingly harsh words had to be used. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In my opinion, it would be better if Mirza Sahib doesn't go into this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Leave it? No, I am just asking because I mentioned it, if... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since you have already said it, then it's better not to go into it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Alright. Similarly, let's leave this as well, that the divinely inspired scholars have used strong words as needed, through Allah's guidance, during the thirteen hundred years of the Ummah of Muhammad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since you have said it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let's leave out its details as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, there is no need to go into detail. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: First, the topic of "The End of Prophethood" is found here within the documents. It doesn't only contain the statement of the finality of prophethood, but also mentions the descent of the Messiah, that the Messiah will come, and it relates to... This is Abu al-Atta Sahib's response. The reason being, that the reply that is being given in the book, how can such a topic, such a subject, be included in it, which is not mentioned in the book? Whose answer is being given. Furthermore, when we looked at this book on the finality of prophethood, it wasn't only discussing the finality of prophethood of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), your being the Seal of the Prophets, the Seal of the Messengers, but also mentioned a coming Messiah, a Prophet of Allah, i.e., with this name, and that is why that answer was given. That's all... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, the question that was, you know. Let me repeat it to you, I didn't say that Maulana Maududi Sahib didn't mention Christ or that Christ, peace be upon him, will come. He has written two chapters here. The first chapter is what is the meaning of Khatm-e-Nabuwat and what does he mean by it, and what do Muslims understand, or what is it from their point of view, and what is it from your point of view, from their point of view. The second comes, it is the descent of Christ. Here, what I asked you was that he had said that from Maududi Sahib's point of view, the door of grace is closed. This comes in the chapter where Khatm-e-Nabuwat is mentioned, and I say that no, if by grace it is meant that no righteous person will come after that, then this Maududi Sahib has not written anywhere as far as I have read. Otherwise, he has definitely written that no other prophet can come, and he has given the same answer that from the door of grace, it is clear to me that other prophets can come, he is answering them, so then you should look at it again. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, remember this article. There was a question related to "Al-Fadl, January 16, 1952." And he was forced to come into the embrace of Ahmadiyyat. The question was, what is the meaning of "enemy" and "embrace"? What I recollect at that time is the period of 1952-53, and its addressees are not all Muslims but those who had come forward prominently for the sake of mischief and fell into the embrace... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anti-Ahmadiyya agitation was going on, I have noted that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just wanted to... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So only they were the intended and the meaning of falling into embrace is that they understand the matter and then friends become friends and this group which is completely of children, of youth, this is a reference to its organization, not from the group in this way. This which has been published in the newspaper is a note from the youth organization to draw attention towards preaching. And this is not even from that organization but from that department of that organization, which is named Muhtam-e-Tableegh, meaning the organization that is related to exchanging ideas, a smaller organization within the youth organization, its name is Muhtam-e-Tableegh, and this statement was published in Al-Fazl by Muhtam-e-Tableegh and the riots of 1952, 1953 had started. The enemy does not only mean those who were coming out to set houses on fire and to kill and plunder, and it has been said about them that explain to them in such a way that they understand, it has not been said to confront them in the same way. جناب یکی بختیار Before you answer the second question, you You say that this is from your group, but this is not Authoritative or Authoritative? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not from our group. That organization of the group which is the youth organization, is from that department of it whose name is Ihtimam-e-Tableegh and it is from them. جناب یکی بختیار No, Mirza Sahib, by my group I did not mean from you or Top organization or group Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the authority of the group will never go (there). جناب یکی بختیار Or from any department of the group? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is from that department of the group which is of the youth and the subject is to exchange ideas. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, not regarding the article. I am only saying this so that it is clear on record that it is from the Jamaat's department, but it is the youth department. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From the youth department's sub-department and from the preaching department. And it was said that preaching means to exchange views. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The statement regarding Baroz has already been submitted. There was one Al Fazl, July 15, 1952. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, it was about some Khuni Mullah. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Editor Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, regarding Khuni Mullah. Where is that? This is the editor's Editorial note. This is not an article from the Jamaat. The editor of Al Fazl, which is the newspaper of Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya, wrote this article before the riots. And an inquiry has also been conducted regarding this in the Munir Inquiry Committee. And he named it Khuni Mullah. Its summary is that all those people should rise up in such a way. All those people who call themselves Muslims and whom outsiders, that is, the enemies of Islam, also consider Muslims and treat them equally, they should all unite on one front. This is the essence of this article. And the reason he gave for this is that the principle on which Pakistan was obtained was that sectarianism would not be taken into account. Rather, every person—that is, this article says that every person whom the enemy of Islam considers Islam and attacks in the same category—I came from the last convoy in 1947. I understand its meaning very well. There is no need to go into its details. In any case, this is the principle. And further it is written in it. Based on this principle, it is written further. When this principle spreads throughout the Islamic world, that leaving aside sectarian matters, they should unite. When this principle spreads all over the world and takes root well, then Khuni Mullah. You will die your own death, meaning when everyone unites, that small part that is heading towards destruction, plunder, and looting... that effort of theirs will end. In my opinion, the term "bloody Mullah" should not have been used, because it creates misunderstanding. We condemn it and should condemn it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, when it has already happened, then it is not that big of a deal. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When the word "hellish" has already been used, then it is not that big of a deal. It must be a Kaafir of a very low degree, here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, "hellish" is what the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) used. And Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab (may God have mercy on him) emphasized it greatly and molded their lives accordingly, for which I have given the reference. And I have probably given the book of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab, his own book printed abroad, and that is "Seerat-un-Nabi," a concise biography of the Prophet. That is the reference from that book. And it was given here from our side; otherwise, it would be with all the scholars. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: By the way, this that is here, is this your party's official organ, "Al-Fadl?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the publication of Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding this, a question was asked during the Munir Inquiry as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Some names of religious scholars are also given in it. Among them? Yes, read that out as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the names of religious scholars are given. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Read that out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He comes here. That Munir Inquiry Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, the editorial, you know, sir, from that Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's the reference, isn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if you read from the original, then it shouldn't be that later it was read from some other document. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I'll read it out. I'm about to read that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are they giving names in it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. They are in it. That's what I'm saying. The lawyer asked, "Hazrat Khalifa Sani, did you see an editorial in 'Al-Fazl' issue of July 15, 1952, titled 'The Last Day of the Bloody Mullah' which contained the following words? These are the same words that you were saying. Yes, the time has come to avenge the blood of all the scholars of truth that has been shed in the past 1300 years. These bloody people have been getting them killed from the beginning. The blood of all of them will be avenged. From Ataullah Shah Bukhari to Mullah Badayuni, to Ehtisham-ul-Haq, to Mullah Muhammad Shafi, to Maududi." Answer: Yes, regarding this writing, a complaint from a man from Montgomery reached me, and I had asked the relevant supervisor for an explanation regarding it. He told me that he had instructed the editor to refute it. Question: Did that refutation come to your attention? Answer: No (after saying no) But just now, I have been shown an article from the August 7, 1952 issue of Al-Fazl, titled "Correction of a Mistake," in which... The whip unraveled the writing. And that denial, meaning the accusations being made, was refuted. Court question: In the editorial, the clerics who were called "Mullahs," not all were called "Mullahs," but those clerics who were called "Mullahs," did they express the opinion that Ahmadis are apostates and deserving of death? In response, I only know that Maulana Abul Ala Maududi expressed this opinion. This whole statement pertains to that. Okay? (Pause) And those who are left, if they... I am very ashamed; we have taken notes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, everyone is feeling the strain; I also have to work a lot, and you know I have very little knowledge of these things, so these things keep happening, and we also request the Speaker Sahib to give half an hour more time, give one hour more time; he also cooperates a lot. So, in this, one issue of Al Fazl from July 6, 1949, remains. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: July 6, 1949. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we have the response from July 6, 1949. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then give this so that my page is complete. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: On a sermon from July 12, 1949, related to Hazrat Khalifat-ul-Thani, the question was omitted; that's right, isn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In which it is written that the enemy feels that their religion will be devoured. No sermon or article of Hazrat Khalifat-ul-Thani was published in July 16, 1949, no such sermon was published in which this was written. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is, it has not been published anywhere that there is a difference in the date? Because it should not be that the date of someone else comes in between. Sometimes there is a mistake in printing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we can give. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You must be well aware of his sermons? You should check it and be sure. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will check and be sure. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But the little satisfaction I have is that it is not found. But at your request... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I say this because... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Similarly, there is another one like this, there was one on July 3, 1952. On July 3, 1952, the question was whether there is such a writing there that you have appeared like criminals, so we... on July 3, 1952, there is no such... that is, I am not verbally refuting this. There is no expertise in the content that you have appeared like criminals, and if you say so, then more than that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You should check to be sure, because some people are watching here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will check further. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The reference to Abu Jahl here, is that the same one, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they were presented as criminals, it is related to that Abu Jahl. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After the conquest of Mecca. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's it, "presented as criminals" is related to that. But in this newspaper, there is no such... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am saying you should verify it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, we will verify it, in case it's in some other date, earlier or later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, because as far as sermons are concerned, this is not something that would only be in the newspaper, you must have your own record of it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, those that are so long after are only newspaper records. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, things from 1953 and 1952 are such that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am just telling you that this has been our practice that when the tape also came, since it was very expensive and we are poor people, we made this rule that when the sermon is written and printed, after some time another sermon comes on top of the tape. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I read somewhere that - I don't want to get into it - that the entire government started it, to deprive you of billions of rupees, and now you say you are poor. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, I don't want to get into that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't want to get into the answer either, but the Jamaat is poor. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir, so may I ask you further questions? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes sir, yes sir. Mr. Chairman: There was another reference from Al-Fazl yesterday. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I gave the reference that, "Whoever opposes me is a Christian, a Jew, a polytheist, and destined for hell." This is from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which book is this reference from? (Pause) Yes, this came up yesterday. One came up yesterday in which I said that it is an Arabic passage and regarding that I said that all... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there is another one. In this, my question was that if this is correct, then what does Mirza Sahib mean by "Whoever opposes me is a Christian, a Jew, a polytheist, and destined for hell?" So, please listen to my question first, what is it that I want to ask? This is his writing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know which reference this is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have had it written twice. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We'll see right now. Maybe it's here right now. We are not avoiding it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is Nuzul-ul-Masih, page and Tadhkirah, page 227. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This remains to be checked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, we can do this later. You can check if there are one or two pages before or after. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, no, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sometimes 227 becomes 247. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will check it ourselves, meaning by looking at five or ten pages before and after. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, not just five or ten. I have seen 227 become 247, the way it is in Urdu. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But if you have 227 and it is actually 206, then that won't do. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, not that. Just a common printing mistake. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, please check one more thing. Yesterday a reference was given, from April 1947, that something was said in it regarding Pakistan. If you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The one about the Parsis, etc.? Is that it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, not that one. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh, okay, okay. About Akhand Hindustan? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so please check one more like that, from '46 or '48, '49. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We'll check 1947, we'll see all the newspapers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It expresses some opinion about Pakistan. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I think that answer is almost ready, the one about Akhand Hindustan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at that one too. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Along with that, yes. I mean, when we come in the evening, we'll do that one too. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, sir. (Pause) There was a reference from Sahibzada Bashir Ahmad Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Kalimatul Fasl? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is ready. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which page of Kalimatul Fasl is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib has interpreted the word "Muslim" in his writings, explaining its meaning. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This whole page, both 26 and 27? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have Mirza Sahib's book, is it Jewish or something else? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which one is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is yours; I will get it again later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is ours. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is there; I will read a passage to you. (Pause) I read out to you from page 126 where Mirza Sahib mentions the first letter. Then he says, look at the text. If a person named Siraj-ud-Din converts from Islam to Christianity, he will still be called Siraj-ud-Din, even though he is no longer Siraj-ud-Din because he has become a Christian, but something else; he will be called by that name because of common usage. It seems that... I have read from here. It seems that Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah) also sometimes thought that people might be deceived by seeing the word "Muslim" in my writings about non-Ahmadis, so he wrote such words about non-Ahmadis here and there as a clarification." 519 That those who claim Islam, wherever the word Muslim occurs, it should be understood to mean claimant of Islam and not a true Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: True Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Self-proclaimed Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here, if you allow me... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Firstly, where Mirza Sahib says that Muslim, as I said yesterday, and gave one or two references where he says Muslim, what does he mean by that? And then here, "sometimes by way of removal, regarding non-Ahmadis, he also writes such words that those people who claim Islam, that wherever the word Muslim occurs, it should be understood as a claimant of Islam, not as a true Muslim." So, I wanted to ask this question that when Mirza Sahib or the leaders of your community who mention Muslims. And on this question, since I have received many questions on this topic, I wanted this to be fully clarified, like the resolution of London, those Muslims in England were called Non-Ahmadi Pakistanis and themselves were called Ahmadi Muslims. I am talking about the resolution, it is a different thing if the resolution is wrong, but from what has come, this impression is created that when you say, "Muslims are doing this." So, when on your side it means towards Ahmadis, then true Muslim means regarding the rest, you mean those who claim to be Muslims. Prefenders, this is not about disbelief here, how many degrees of disbeliever one is, or within the circle. This is exactly the impression that those who are non-Ahmadis claim to be Muslims, but are not actually Muslims, so please clarify this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I understand the question to be is that here, the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement called one group "true Muslims" and about the other group, he said that in his view, they are Muslims but not "true Muslims," so what is the difference? The answer to this has already come in the memorandum, but since the question has been repeated, I want to repeat its answer and want to explain what the definition of "true Muslim" is, according to the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement. This is written on page 13 of the memorandum. In our view, all these fatwas of his are meaningful on the surface, and in themselves, they cannot be declared a permit to Paradise or a warrant for Hell. As far as... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this page 262 that you mentioned? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is page 13 of the memorandum, in which there is an excerpt from the founder, which shows what is meant by a "true Muslim" in your view. As far as the reality of Islam is concerned, in the words of the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement, we are listing the definition of a true Muslim, the term "true Muslim" which is used here. In your view, this is the definition of a true Muslim. The reformative meanings of Islam are those to which this verse refers: "Yes, whoever submits his face to Allah and is a doer of good, shall have his reward with his Lord; and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." Meaning, a Muslim is one who surrenders his entire being in the way of God Almighty, that is, dedicates his being to Allah Almighty and to following His will and to obtaining His pleasure, and then becomes steadfast for God Almighty in good deeds and puts all the practical powers of his being in His way. The point is that in belief and practice, he becomes purely God's, in belief in this way... To consider one's entire being in reality as something created for the recognition of God Almighty, His obedience, His love and affection, and to attain His pleasure. And practically in such a way as to purely perform for Allah the true virtues that are related to every power and associated with every God-given grace, but with such zeal, enthusiasm, and presence as if he is seeing the face of his true God in the mirror of his obedience. Now, by taking a careful look at the aforementioned verses, every sensible person can understand that the reality of Islam can only be realized in someone when their being, along with all their inherent strengths, is purely dedicated to God Almighty and in His path, and the blessings that they have received from God Almighty are then returned to Him. And not only in belief but also in the mirror of action, the whole form of his Islam and its perfect reality is displayed. That is, the person claiming Islam proves that his hands and feet, his heart and mind, his intellect and his understanding, his anger and his mercy, his knowledge and his awareness, and all his spiritual and physical powers, and his honor, and his wealth, and his comfort, and his joy, and everything from the hair on his head to the nails on his feet, in terms of outward and inward, to the extent that his intentions and the thoughts of his heart and the emotions of his soul have all become so obedient to God Almighty as the limbs of a person are obedient to that person. In short, it should be proven that the truthfulness of his step has reached such a degree that whatever belongs to him is not his but belongs to God Almighty, and all the limbs and strengths are engaged in such service as if they are "Uraj-ul-Haq." And by reflecting on these verses... It is also clear and self-evident that dedicating one's life in the way of God Almighty, which is the reality of Islam, is of two kinds: Firstly, that God Almighty alone is made one's Lord, Goal, and Beloved, and that no partner remains in this worship, love, fear, and hope; and that the sanctity, glorification, worship, and all the manners, commands, orders, limits, and matters of heavenly decree and destiny of God are accepted wholeheartedly; and with utmost humility and submission, all these commands, limits, laws, and decrees are taken upon one's head as a burden; and also, all those pure truths and pure knowledge that are a means of knowing His vast powers, a means of knowing the high status of His kingdom and dominion, and a strong guide for recognizing His blessings and bounties, are fully known. The second kind is in the way of Allah Almighty..." Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Mr. President, we have read three pages of this memorandum. It would take a lot of time to read these three pages. We have already read in this memorandum the definition of Islam by Mirza Sahib to show his sanctity. Mr. Chairman: It is in the memorandum. Members: Yes. Mr. Chairman: Then it need not be repeated. It can be referred page so and so of Mahzar-Nama yes, it need not be referred. (Interruptions) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, if you want to emphasize. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I don't want to. I just want a clarification. Maybe I misunderstood. I want to correct myself. It was admitted on the first day that that if the question is repeated, the answer will also be repeated. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, since the question has been repeated regarding the true Muslim... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the question has not been repeated yet. It is a reference to Mirza Bashir Ahmad Sahib... Hmm. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And he was asked who is the real... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And in it, the word "real" came. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, who is the real Muslim and who is the other one? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have described it in detail in the affidavit. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, regarding real Islam, I have narrated this. Otherwise, I leave it there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if you think it is very important, it has come on record. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Wa Ila Akhir. Meaning, if it is read till the end, then I was saying... whatever has been heard, the matter becomes clear. (Pause) The basis of the question is, what is the difference between a claimant of Islam and a true Muslim? That's what the question was, right? So, I said that according to you, the real person... From the excerpt, I have read a couple of pages, and some are left, but the meaning becomes clear from what I left to save time. So, that's what is meant by a true Muslim. And whoever isn't, is a claimant of Islam. And the meaning that comes out of this isn't objectionable. We have already decided this after much deliberation that one group is of Muslims who are extremely sincere and close to God, and another is that which after crossing their limits, exits the boundary of Islam. In between, there are thousands of types of semi-sincere, intermediate, and lower-grade [Muslims]. That point has been clarified, the same is here... Mr. Yachni Bakhtiar: I want to submit that there was a poor, simple Pathan, like me. I am also a Pathan. He asked a cleric, "Sir, what is the way to get to heaven?" He first said, "Well, offer prayers, fast, go for Hajj, these are all things. Believe in Allah and the Prophet." So he said, "If all this is done, will I reach heaven?" They say, "No, there will be a bridge of Sirat, sharper than a sword and thinner than a hair." So he said, "Then why don't you just say clearly that there is no way to go?" So, I will submit to you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I don't say that. Mr. Yachni Bakhtiar: No, no, I am talking about the cleric and the Pathan. You have given the definition of a true Muslim. According to that, how many Muslims have you seen in this world? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The definition of a true Muslim that I have given doesn't lead to this conclusion... Mr. Yachni Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not saying that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, listen to my answer. I have not concluded from this that those Muslims who are not of this type will not go to heaven. Mr. Yachni Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not talking about that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I didn't understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question is, are there very few such Muslims, or are there none at all? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the Ummah of Muhammad, millions upon millions have passed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to this Definition... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, according to this Definition. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And even nowadays, you don't think there are millions upon millions like that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: At this time, I will be understood as being biased. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, the authority that has done Shady, that has seen people... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Even now, according to me, in my knowledge, not near, in my knowledge, there are thousands. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thousands. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not in my knowledge, and Mir Azam is, in any case, not accustomed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am asking the same thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, in my knowledge there are thousands who come under this definition. The real Muslim type. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, in your knowledge, there are those who come under one definition, then another question arises: In your knowledge and from your point of view, can't all Ahmadis come under that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, they cannot come under that. I have said clearly they cannot come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There will be some number of them who will be... some will be real. Among them too... now here, what Mirza Sahib has said, I want to draw attention to that again. I am wasting your time. The question is not who is a claimant of Islam and who is in true Islam. It is that... People may be deceived seeing the word "Muslim" for non-Ahmadis. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is that Ahmadi and only non-Ahmadi whom he is referring to, so that he does not consider them real. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Tell me when you are done. I will answer. Whether anyone agrees with it or not, it has been said that according to us, all those who are not Ahmadis are claimants of Islam. It has not been said that all those who are not Ahmadis are true Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please look again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have seen it again. It is said that all those who are not Ahmadis are claimants of Islam, and many of the Ahmadis are also claimants of Islam and are not true Muslims. It has not been denied in this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will read it once again and then leave this question and then bother you again. It seems that the Promised Messiah also sometimes had the thought that people might be deceived by seeing the word "Muslim" for non-Ahmadis in my writings... A Christian cannot be a claimant of Islam, a Jew cannot be, a polytheist cannot be. It is only the non-Ahmadi Muslims who can be. "People may be deceived by seeing the word "Muslim" for non-Ahmadis, therefore you... You have written such words about non-Ahmadis in some places as a remedy, that those people who claim Islam, wherever the word "Muslim" is, should be understood as claimants of Islam, not true Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not even a true Muslim, its definition is also included. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Clearly outside the pale of Ahmadi Muslim. If I mean, if I write Muslim I mean people who claim to be Muslim or pretend to be Muslim. This is the impression from the plain, simple reading of the passage. After that if you want to add something more, Sir, that will come on the record. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I want to say something else, the passage that has just been read is not from the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement. It seems that the Promised Messiah also had this thought at times... This is the writer of the article's own reasoning, about which he has expressed that he is not fully confident in his own reasoning, that is why he used the word "seems". "Seems" is not used for a definite statement, but if it were a definite statement, it would be said that this is the case, here it is that "it seems" and this is your reasoning and further said that those who claim Islam, be considered claimants to Islam, not true Muslims who fall within this definition, which does not include all Ahmadis, this is entirely the reasoning of the writer of this article... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says about non-Ahmadis when I say Muslim... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the reasoning of the writer of the article, and I have said that saying that in my opinion all non-Ahmadis are not true Muslims according to this definition does not logically follow from this. Logic says against it, that The logical conclusion is not Ahmadis are our true Muslims. The sentence is that those who are not Ahmadis. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sorry Sir, one minute from your point of view According to belief, is any non-Ahmadi also a true Muslim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: According to my belief, yes, this is very clear, the question according to my belief According to this definition, to my knowledge no non-Muslim is a true Muslim, no non-Ahmadi Muslim belonging to the Muslim community meets this standard. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar a real one? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A real Muslim of that standard. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the real one that you have defined. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, what is written in this regard. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the next subject will take some time, shall we have a break now. Mr. Chairman: The delegation is permitted to withdraw for 12.15. (The Delegation left the Hall) Mr. Chairman: I would like to know if any honourable Member wants to say something. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir. Mr. Chairman: Then we meet at 12.15. Thank you very much. (The Special committee adjourned for tea Break to meet again at 12.15 pm) (The Special Committee re-assembled after tea break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair) Mr. Chairman: Don't call them yet. Two minutes, yes, come quickly, move them outside, you can sit down. Just to tell something about the programme to honourable members........ I draw the attention of honourable members Sardar Abdul Aleem. I will just draw the attention of Honourable member........ Sadar Abdul Aleem. PROGRAM FOR FURTHER SITTING OF THE COMMITTEE/ASSEMBLY I will just draw the attention of honorable members that we have decided certain things about the program. I want to tell the honorable members that the Attorney General needs a week to prepare what has been done in six days; it takes at least a week for preparation. We also need a week for the preparation of our record. Only then can we supply the copies of the record to honorable members; without that, we cannot proceed further. So many things are left out, so many things are to be asked. So today will be the last day, rather this meeting will be the last for the cross-examination, but the cross-examination will continue. The date will be fixed and will be told. The House committee will adjourn from today, and the date will be around 19, 20, 21st. It will be told to the honorable members. Tomorrow there will be no session. For the 12th and 13th, we will meet as the National Assembly, one session daily on the 12th and 13th morning. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada; (Minister for Law and Parliamentary Affairs) I would request that we shall have an after- noon session. Mr. Chairman: Now, Mr. Law Minister, you also have to accept our request. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Because the Senate is........ Mr. Chairman: You were absent for six days. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Sir, the Senate is meeting in the morning. Mr. Chairman: You have to compensate; now we can meet simultaneously, we have made arrangements, we can....... All right. (Interruption) Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: We have a lot of burden in the morning, and other work suffers a lot. Mr. Chairman: Okay. In the evening. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: The reporters have been divided into two groups; divide the ministers into two groups as well, so that they can come. Mr. Chairman: So, should we call them? The delegation may be called. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I may explain you know that…………………. Mr. Chairman: Just a minute, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since it has been agreed that after this it will be adjourned, so I do not want to start a subject like Jihad or what they said about the British. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So even if I finish within 15, 20 minutes. Mr. Chairman: We will see that. They may be called (The delegation entered the hall) The Attorney-General is ready? Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, I asked you a few questions from which it appears that you consider yourselves a separate sect or community or group or party from the Muslims, so keeping this separatism and separatist tendency in mind, so that you know what question I am asking, I will ask you one or two more questions. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Actually, this preamble.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you deny it, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, I didn't understand the preamble either, I was just going to say that now you have laid the groundwork. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, I will say it again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I didn't understand that because you said that I asked questions from which this conclusion is drawn. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this was the effect, this Impression. I asked you a question that Mirza Sahib had said somewhere that we should be recorded separately in the census, then I drew your attention to the fact that Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Sahib had sent a representative that where Parsees, Christians are being treated separately, we should also be treated separately. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I haven't answered that yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said that keep that in mind, that I am speaking on this subject so that you don't misunderstand later in what context this was being said. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, you know this and everyone knows that Christians, Hindus, Parsees and Muslims have separate calendars. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Separate, separate? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Calendars. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is correct, isn't it, that this is Christian for Christians, Muslims have their own calendar which starts from Hijri. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, starts from Hijrat. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then the Parsees also have the same, who start from their Nowruz. Similarly, Hindus also... So, in 1394 Hijri, did you Ahmadis also... Do Ahmadis also have any separate calendar? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They do not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, do your newspapers mention any year with the Hijri year? The calendars that newspapers or magazines publish, like in our newspapers, write Hijri along with the Gregorian calendar. If you pick up today's Jang newspaper, or pick up the "Loy-e-Waqt" or any newspaper, both Hijri and Gregorian are mentioned. In some of your newspapers and magazines, is there any mention of the year or month of your calendar with Hijri or Gregorian? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, our calendar is not mentioned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Your calendar.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We don't have a calendar, so how can it be mentioned? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, that's what I was asking. First I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, let me clarify, because it will come up later that maybe I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, I asked first, do you have a calendar? You said no. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then in some newspapers, like this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If your question is finished, then I will answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I asked this question about your publications... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The journal is not related to us, but to every sect of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I was asking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So any calendar that starts with Hijra in any form cannot be attributed to anyone other than Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was just asking if you have your own calendar? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we don't have any calendar related to us. There is a calendar related to Hijra. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the calendar of the Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it is the calendar of the Muslims, which is related to Hijra, that is the calendar of the Muslims. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which month do you call "Mah-e-Wafa"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We were talking about the calendar, then the month... that's why I said that to call any calendar related to Hijra a calendar related to Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya is not correct. No one would consider it correct. The only difference is that there are two calendars related to Hijra, one is called Lunar, which is related to the moon, its beginning is also Hijra. And the other is called Solar, which is related to the sun, like the Christian calendar, which is related to the moon of Hijra, and the years that go forward are prevalent all over the world, but in one part of the world, Muslims also created another calendar from Hijra, which is related to the sun, but that is the calendar of the Muslims because it runs from Hijra. It is prevalent in Afghanistan, it is prevalent in Iran, Hijri Shamsi, and our heart desired it and still desires it to implement it fully, but we have not been able to succeed. The calendar that is related to the Hijra of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), which is prevalent in Afghanistan, which is prevalent in Iran, if Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya makes a small and humble effort, how can it be called its own calendar? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I didn't say that either. I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am clarifying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's my answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Mah-e-Wafa, is it related to someone? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is related to Shay Enjri. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are these the same months in Afghanistan as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the names of the months are not the same. We have based the names of the months on various events in the life of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), for example, Barah Maah Fatah, it is related to the conquest of Mecca. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then give the details of why you named each month as such? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, now tell me, was there a "Zia-ul-Islam Press" in Qadian? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there was a press in Qadian named Zia-ul-Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And in that... a booklet has been published about Durood Sharif. Have you seen it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I haven't read it, but I have seen it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In it is the Durood Sharif that we recite in prayers... Allahumma salli ala Muhammadin wa ala aali Muhammad. There is a slight change that after Muhammad (P.B.U.H), "Ahmad" comes and after Aal-e-Muhammad, "Aal-e-Ahmad" comes. Is this correct? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our Jamaat does not have any such Durood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is why I am asking you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will give you a photo stat right now, please take a look at it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I know that it is in the book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is in the book, isn't it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, but it is not from the Jamaat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Zia-ul-Islam Press in Qadian, does your Jamaat have any connection with it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Zia-ul-Islam Press is there, anyone can get their book printed from there... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, has it been doing your publications? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It has been doing our publications, but our publication "M Sh" newspaper is also published in Lahore, and many newspapers and presses do it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's fine, but I am saying, what is your relationship with this press, or is there no relationship? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it is owned by an Ahmadi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Owned by Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, owned by an Ahmadi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Its owner is Ahmadi, Mr. Makni Bakhtiar, and secondly, your publication has been doing this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our publication - Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And this Darood Sharif, is this from your publications? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not our publication, it is not a publication of the Jamaat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it someone else's Ahmadi publication? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is someone else's. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But it is Ahmadi's, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is Ahmadi's. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Ansari Sahib! Please read. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This non-zero issue 4 sent Darood Sharif And in the morning prayer, after the Ruku of the second Rak'at with commitment, He used to recite Dua-e-Qunoot aloud, and in it, he used to recite Darood Sharif daily in these words. "Allahumma salli ala Muhammadin wa Ahmadin wa ala aali Muhammadin wa Ahmad, kamaa sallaita ala Ibrahima wa ala aali Ibrahima innaka hamidum majeed. Allahumma barik ala Muhammadin wa Ahmadin wa ala aali Muhammadin wa Ahmad, kamaa baarakta ala Ibrahima wa ala aali Ibrahima innaka hamidum majeed." This incident is approximately from 1316 Hijri, i.e., 1898 AD, or close to it. He led the prayers continuously for about three to four months, and Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) also 0.17 They used to join the congregation, and the Prophet never said anything about Hafiz Muhammad Sahib reciting the Darood Sharif in this manner. Once, Qazi Syed Amir Hussain Sahib, Hafiz Rahmatullah Khan Sahib, and Chaudhry, also known as Bhai Abdul Rahim Sahib, formerly Jagat Singh Sahib, told him that this Darood should not be recited in this manner, but rather as it is mentioned in the Hadith and recited in the Tashahhud after the prayer. Hafiz Muhammad Sahib was of a somewhat quick-tempered nature. He replied to this by saying that you people have no right to stop me from this. If I am to be stopped, the Prophet himself will stop me from it. But the Prophet never forbade him, nor did these elders present this matter to the Prophet's service, and Hafiz Sahib continued to recite the Darood Sharif with the aforementioned words in the prayer of Qunoot during the morning prayer. At that time, Hazrat Maulvi Abdul Karim Sahib Sialkoti (may Allah be pleased with him) had not yet migrated to Qadian. "Allahumma salli ala Muhammadin wa ala aali Muhammadin wa barik wa sallim innaka hamidum majeed." The point is that he used to recite it forcefully, meaning he would recite this Darood loudly along with the Prayer of Qunoot, and the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, never stopped him from doing so. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Listen, the books and pamphlets on Darood Sharif that are said to be with us do not contain this at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I consider this clarification necessary because you do not approve of it? You say it is wrong? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am saying that regarding the book that it is being said that this is in it, this is not in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I asked a second question. You stated earlier that this Darood is completely wrong and you do not approve of it. I am just asking you this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you have no instruction to recite this type of Darood? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am hearing this for the first time today. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is why I am asking... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is not, it is not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mirza Sahib! I am not accusing you, I want clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have given the clarification that it is not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am receiving questions and it is my duty to not assume that a decision will be made based on it until I bring it to your attention and you do not provide clarification. In this regard, it is my duty, I am bringing it to your attention. Do not assume that I am making an allegation against you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am not assuming that at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, I had mentioned this before as well, and I could not find any response in my notes, and the record has not been created yet, so there is difficulty. Al-Fazl, Volume 5, Issue number 70069 - I had mentioned this reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 270069. What is the date of this issue? Mr. Bachi Bakhtiar: I don't have the date. It is volume, yes, volume number issue... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the first time it is coming before us anyway. Mr. Bachi Bakhtiar: No sir, I have read it out. I have marked it. I have read it out. I will read it out again. Then you will remember that I have read it. Mian Ataullah Sahib brought it, but he is not here today, so I thought maybe you have a reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Bachi Bakhtiar: Did Saih Nasri not separate his followers from the Jews? Do we not see communities with the prophets whose biographies have reached us? Did they not separate their communities from outsiders? Everyone will have to admit that, indeed, they did. If Hazrat Mirza Sahib, who is a prophet and messenger, separated his community from outsiders according to the statement of prophethood, then what is new and unique about it? I had read this out to you. Didn't you verify? That's what I want to ask. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not in my mind. Mr. Bachi Bakhtiar: Yes, so please note it down because this is the same... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It doesn't have a date for Al-Fazl. Mr. Bachi Bakhtiar: It was brought yesterday, sir. I also didn't remember to remind you again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Without the date, I... Mr. Bachi Bakhtiar: Both issue and volume are present. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Volume 5 and issue 69, 70. Okay, it will come from this reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, this morning when I was drawing your attention, several things were left out regarding that. Then there was a, Angels of Allah, page number 47 and 48, in Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad Sahib's book in which it says, "But from the day you became Ahmadi, your nation has become Ahmadiyyat for identification and distinction. If someone asks, you can tell your caste or nation, otherwise now your gotra and your caste is Ahmadi. Then why do you seek a nation among non-Ahmadis, leaving Ahmadis?" You noted it down, too. In my opinion, you said something about it at that time as well, but further detail or further verification is needed so that this thing remains clear in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As much as it is in front of me, it should be ended there. In my opinion, here the innovation was that, for example, a Syed will not marry into other castes, and Syeds etc., they will not marry into other nations. And some nations considered themselves superior, and considered some as inferior. And those belonging to a higher nation did not marry into a lower nation. I think this is what he has said to them, that now leave all these things. Islam and Ahmadiyyat have made you one, therefore forget this distinction. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You should pay attention to this again because you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have heard it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "But from the day you became Ahmadi, your nation has become Ahmadiyyat..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are one nation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Separate from the rest. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So this is the difference... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning for identification and distinction, if someone asks, you can tell your caste or nation. That is the tribal system that goes on, caste etc. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, but not in society. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, yes. "Now she is of your clan, your Ahmadi caste." Then, leaving the Ahmadis... meaning, there is caste system even among Ahmadis; there are Rajputs, Arains, Jats, Pathans, and Baloch because that question does not even arise. So, they say, combining all these, then say, leaving the Ahmadis... then this does not come under the caste system. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that's right. Let me clarify this now. Leaving the Ahmadis, why do you look for another قوم (nation/community/people) outside? Meaning, when you are a Syed and you get a proposal for an Ahmadi girl, you say, no, we have to marry within the Syeds, even if we have to do it from outside. That is a great struggle to create unity in the society and bring it to one level. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, I have already given the reference to separate prayers and marriages. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will check it. It will be somewhere around. It will become clear here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I want to draw your attention to the question I have. Literature has come to me. According to that, Ahmadis consider themselves a separate sect, a separate قوم (nation/community/people), a separate entity, and say that just as the other prophets treated their own followers differently from the rest, our prophet, the Ahmadis, believe that the followers of Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad Sahib are separate from the rest. And they have the right to do so. This impression comes from this literature whenever, but I am telling you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Questions of this kind that come up later, "Don't marry them, don't pray behind them." These things that I am asking are coming in support of this separatist tendency, and if you can give an explanation for them, then this matter... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay, note it down. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There was a book that, I think, was published in Qadian, Madras, London, and Chicago. It's fifty pages long, first in English by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Sahib. "Some basic feats regarding religious beliefs and views of Kadjanis as revealed by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad, son and second successor of Ghulam Ahmad Kadiani in his book "Ahmad the Messenger of the letter Days." You may not be aware of this. This book was published in 1924, I believe Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Sahib went to London... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Addressed there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He addressed there, so there he explained the mission. In the edition I have of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, on page 58, The Reading Sir, is "Ahmadis to form a Separate community from the outside Musalman". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From the outside Musalmans? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This would be incorrect English, but that's what's in the publication I have. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it's not English. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Ahmadis is to form a separate community from the out-side Musalmans, those Muslims who are outside the circle of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know what's written here. $44 Now, that is, Bakhtiar, it will be Urdu, someone must have translated it, so "From outside Musalmans." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Do you have a photocopy of this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a photocopy; I will send it to you so you can see it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The Year 1901 was the year of the census. The Promised Messiah issued a notice to his followers asking them to get themselves recorded in the census papers under the name of 'Ahmadi Musalman'. This was, therefore, the year when, for the first time, he differentiated his followers from the other Musalmans by the name of "Ahmadi." So, I am drawing your attention to this so that you can... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The sentence that you read is contradicting the title. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Whether it is contradicting or supporting is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, it is fully supporting it. You say that it is contradicting, so I am requesting clarification from you. Anyway, please take a look at it, and then later you can... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. (Pause) This is very interesting. For me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In 1924, a lecture was given, and that lecture... Surely it was in the summer, sometime, in the summer season... and that lecture was printed, and its re-print happened again in 1924. This is something to check: that the year, just a few months, had not ended, and there was a need for a re-print. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, Yaki Bakhtiar, it must have been published more. It must have been in more demand... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I said this is something to check. Secondly, this page that is on it is very interesting. "Published by courtesy of Mr. G. Ahmad, LLB, B.A. (Alig), Ex-Income-tax Officer, up in Calcutta., Proprietor of Messrs G. Ahmad & Co., Income-tax Advisers and Advocates, 17, Writer's Chambers, Karachi." And this reference to Karachi has also come, and UP Calcutta has also come, and here it doesn't give any date on it that Karachi... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I think they didn't have the front page. Or something like that. But an Ahmadi friend of mine gave me this book. A long time ago. I think it's in my library too. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Photocopy? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the original book. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Original, yes, you'll only know by looking at it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so it will be in your library too, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, this is not the kind of book that would be printed and not be available, so this that is on the ____ front page Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Leave it, it might be wrong, I don't even remember what its reading is, but the photocopy page... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We'll see it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: See it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I also don't remember, but you described it in great detail... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then it will be difficult. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You should check again then. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Neither you remember, nor do I. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the answer is there. Where is its record? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it's in the record. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When will this record be made? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's very difficult, I understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, this that exists is your affidavit right now. Maybe I misunderstood. And the impression I have... I read it once three or four days ago, so it is written in it that because they gave fatwas, then I asked you, even if the child is two months old, six months old, you say that his father belonged to some sect, that sect gave the fatwa, so it comes under it. Emphasis kept going on, I said if there is no fatwa which you... I don't go into that. Hypothetical question does not arise. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding the funeral, you will remember that I gave you my own fatwa here, i.e., told you... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That was about Denmark, you said... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, about Denmark. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... If someone dies unclaimed... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No one, I gave this fatwa that a person who attributes himself to the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) will not be left unclaimed in the eyes of the world. Our opponents are Christians and non-Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have been so kind, given so much concession, that a Muslim has died and there is no heir. So, offer the funeral prayer for him. If there is an heir, then don't offer it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I said that when some people have offered the prayer, then it is the unanimous decision of the jurists of the Ummah that it is a communal obligation, and those who do not offer the prayer are not sinners. The final objection becomes, why aren't you sinners? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, my question meant, are they sinners or not? I understand that a person passes away, dies, departs. So, we pray for him, that Allah may forgive him, we respect him. That's why we offer the prayer. For ourselves, it's a separate matter whether it is our obligation or not. So, to pay some respect... I also say this, you said that we won't even do it for a child, so you said that it means they issue fatwas against us, that's why. So if there is any further reason for the fatwas, then I will... so that the position becomes absolutely clear, that even if there were no fatwas.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I think what I have said is enough. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning what is in the memorandum? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is in the memorandum, and whatever I have said in the questions and answers in this regard up to this point is enough. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, that was my understanding. Now, please tell me whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib had any sons who were not Ahmadi? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We had one son in the Ahmadiyya سلسلہ (series/community) who passed away during his lifetime. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did Mr. Mian Bakhtiar and Ahmadi not become? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And did not pledge allegiance. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I said. So, upon his death, did Mirza Sahib not offer his funeral prayer? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't remember. (To one of his companions) Why? A companion of Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He did not offer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He did not offer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And because he said that he was my very obedient son, he was a good son. But he did not become an Ahmadi, and I did not offer the funeral prayer, so did he also give any testimony against Mirza Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you, Sir, now, Sir. PROGRAMME FOR FURTHER SITTINGS OF THE COMMITTEE Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (Addressing the Chair) Now Sir, the next subject is a heavy one, and if later it could be taken, because I do not want to start... Mr. Chairman: I see. So, I think......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It should be in the evening. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, he has said that the Speaker Sahib will explain whether to start tomorrow or on Monday. So, he will say something about it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Sir, that is... they should order, whatever they order, that will be done. Mr. Chairman: I think now...... Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Sir, I think that the number of questions that have been asked in the cross-examination... I was not here the entire time, I have been going through the record, also notice has been claimed or time has been claimed, because back references have to be made, and, therefore, we could break the cross-examination for a few days and then meet again so that it could be completed. Mr. Chairman: I think now we have to break the examination of the witness, because we have been sitting for six days. It has been strenuous on the Attorney-General, it has been strenuous on the members of the delegation, and also......................... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, you informed me that the National Assembly is meeting on Monday and Tuesday, and then comes Pakistan Day. So we would not sit here for three days and then start. So, I would request, sir. Mr. Chairman: There is no likelihood of the examination being finished today? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is not possible, not even tomorrow, because the subject is so vast. Mr. Chairman: And then so many things have to come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, and they also need time, because I have given some references, they have to look them up. So, instead of three or four days, we will have to after a week or ten days, if it is convenient to Mirza Sahib. Mr. Chairman: So the delegation is permitted to leave without fixing any date. The delegation will be informed two days earlier. It will be around........ Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Two days before the actual date. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did Janab Bichi Bakhtiar and Ahmadi not become Ahmadis? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And did not pledge allegiance. Mr. Bichi Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I said. So, upon his death, did Mirza Sahib not...: Did not lead his funeral prayer? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I do not remember (to one of his companions) Why? A companion of Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Did not lead. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Did not lead. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And said because he was my very obedient son, a very good son, but did not become an Ahmadi, I did not lead the funeral prayer, so did he also issue any fatwa against Mirza Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you, Sir, now, Sir. PROGRAMME FOR FURTHER SITTINGS OF THE COMMITTEE Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (Addressing the Chair) Now Sir, the next subject is a heavy one, and if later it could be taken, because I do not want to start . ......... Mr. Chairman: I see. So, I think ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It should be in the evening. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, he has said that the Speaker Sahib will explain whether to start tomorrow or on Monday. So he will say something about that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, sir, that is his... give the order, whatever order he gives, it will be done. Mr. Chairman: I think now......... Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Sir, I think that the number of questions which have been asked in the cross-examination... I was not here all along, I have been going through the record also - notice has been claimed or time has been claimed, because back references have to be made, and, therefore, we could break the cross-examination for a few days and then meet again so that it could be completed. Mr. Chairman: I think now we have to break the examination of the witness, because for six days we have been sitting. It has been strenuous on the Attorney-General, it has been strenuous on the members of the delegation, and also................... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, you informed me that the National Assembly is meeting on Monday and Tuesday, and then comes the Pakistan Day. So we would not sit here for three days and then start. So, I would request, sir .... Mr. Chairman: There is no likelihood of the examination being finished to-day? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is not possible, not even to-morrow, because the subject is so vast. Mr. Chairman: And then so many things have to come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, and they also need time, because I have given some references, they have to look them up. So, instead of three or four days, we will have to after a week or ten days, if to Mirza Sahib it is convenient. Mr. Chairman: So the delegation is permitted to leave without fixing any date. The delegation will be informed two days earlier, It will be around........ Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: ..Two days before the actual date. ***AN COLUMN OF PAKISTAN on Aug. 19/4 Mr. Chairman: Yes. the next date shall be decided by the steering committee or by the House or by the chairman and the law Minister and the Attorney-General, as decided; and they will be informed two or three days earlier, Anyhow, it will be within ten days. But it will be after 14th. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada : In fairness we could say that there will be no possibility of meeting until 15th or 16th, Mr. Chairman: 15th or 16th, Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And a day after that. Mr. Chairman:Yes, a day after ........ because there are so many engagements. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You will inform two days prior after eight to ten days? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying. Mr. Chairman: Approximately the eighteenth or nineteenth, case whatever is decided. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you meet in the evening as well, then not on Sunday. Then after that, the National Assembly is fixed on Monday. It is also fixed on Thursday. Then there is Independence Day. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have no objection. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If we sit here like this for four days, then it is better to have a week or ten days so that you can also go and see, and I can also get some rest. Mr. Chairman: No, no. It is too much on the nerves of the honorable members of the committee....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, it is a strain on me it is a strain bn.......... PROGRAM FOR FURTHER SITTINGS OF THE COMMITTEE Mr. Chairman: I know, on the Attorney-General, and on the witness also. You are under physical strain. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir. You are well-acquainted with the facts, with the Islamic law, I am not. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Anyway, now it will be after eight to ten days, and whatever final date is fixed... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It will not be for at least a week, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, about three days before that... Mr. Chairman: You will be informed three days earlier. Three days earlier the members of the delegation will be informed. Thank you very much. And no proceedings have to be disclosed. The honourable members may keep sitting. (The delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Yes, any honourable member who would like to say something? We have a procedure here that speeches are made for half an hour afterward. The reporters are free, they can go, they can have recess. Now we will meet as National Assembly on Monday at 6.00 p.m. (The Special Committee adjourned sine die) No. 07 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Tuesday, the 20th August, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS Pages 1. Recitation from the Holy Qur'an. 857 2. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation-(Continued) 857-984 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION ISLAMABAD. N. 07 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Tuesday, the 20th August, 1974 (Contains No. 1-21) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Tuesday, the 20th August, 1974 857 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at ten of the clock, in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN Mr. Chairman: Are you prepared? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney General of Pakistan): Yes. Mr. Chairman: They may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You had to give some answers. Mirza Nasir Ahmed (Witness, Head of the Ahmadiyya Community Rabwah): I have them collected. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or will you recite those first? 858 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. There was this question, that in "Al-Fadl" 30th July, 1952 it is: We shall be victorious, you appear like Abu Jahl. The answer to this is that in this paper, no such phrase was found, neither literally nor figuratively. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Have you looked carefully? In some other paper? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I said that day that we will look at five or ten (10) days before or after as well. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sometimes there is a mistake of year. Of this date or nearby year... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To search the entire file of "Al-Fadl" for this reference, this cannot be done by a human. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I... see, it happens that 1952 can be 1951 or 1953. Sometimes "13" becomes "23". So, I am not saying to look at each and every paper. So, you didn't find this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, we are not finding it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: About this, you had said that this matter came from some youth organization. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not about this, that was another one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's another reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, not about this. Appendix Tohfa-e-Golڑviہ, page 27. The question was that it says there: You will have to abandon the other sects. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 859 This reveals that you have tried to create something completely distinct and separate from the Muslim community. If we look at the supplement "Tohfa Golarviyya," page 27, the answer itself is present there. The passage there is: "As God has informed me, it is forbidden and absolutely forbidden for you to pray behind any denier or liar or follower; rather, your Imam should be from among yourselves. This is alluded to in one aspect of the Hadith of Bukhari, that your Imam will be from among you." That is, when the Messiah descends, you will have to abandon even those sects who claim to be Muslim. Only regarding the matter of leading prayers. One is Anwar-ul-Islam, page 30. The phrase that was presented here in the question, as far as we remember, because we don't have any tape. According to the notes they took, there is a phrase like "they are eager to become illegitimate," that Muslims were told this in Anwar-ul-Islam. This passage itself reveals its meaning. It is written here: "Now, what decision could be clearer than this..." "Which Aaliyah is it," the word is missing. Anyway: "Now, what decision could be clearer than this, that we ourselves go to Amritsar for the sake of two words and give two thousand rupees to them. Mr. Abdullah Aatham, if in reality, considers me a liar (it is about Abdullah Aatham), Mr. Abdullah Aatham, if in reality considers me a liar and knows that he has not seen even an atom of Islamic greatness..." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 20th Aug., 1974 If he does not turn towards Islamic greatness, then he will surely, without delay, agree with the aforementioned statement, because now he knows from his own experience that I am a liar. (About himself, "that I am a liar") and the protection of Christ he (meaning the Christian Abdullah Atham) has observed, then what fear does he have from this contest? Was the Messiah alive in the first fifteen months and could Mr. Abdullah Atham protect him? could protect, and now he is dead, so he cannot, while the Christians have announced in their advertisement has announced by saying that Lord Messiah saved the life of Mr. Abdullah Atham. Then Lord Messiah will save lives even now. No reason is known why now the Messiah's Lord Mr. Abdullah Atham should have some doubt and hesitation about being able, and before that he should not have any doubt, but now he should have a lot of certainty because he has experienced his Godhead and power. has happened and also experienced our lies, but remember that Mr. Abdullah Atham in his heart knows very well that all these things are lies that he has been saved by the Messiah. Who himself is dead who can save whom? And the one who died, how is he powerful and how is he God? But the truth is that A true and perfect fear of God saved him. If an ignorant person is instigated by Christian instigation If he becomes fearless, he will taste the fearlessness from that perfect God. In short, now we have shown the clear path of judgment and set a standard for a false Messiah. presented. Now whoever acts mischievously and stubbornly against this clear verdict will talk nonsense and repeatedly say out of his wickedness that the Christians will win, and not use any shame or modesty. and without being able to answer our verdict with justice, he will not refrain from denial and verbal abuse, and our CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION will not believe in victory. (Victory of Islam) Then it will be clearly understood that he is eager to become an illegitimate child and is not a legitimate child, so in order to become a legitimate child, it was obligatory that if he considers me a liar (Abdullah Atham) and considers the Christians to be dominant and victorious then he should effectively refute the argument that I have presented. In my opinion, this statement is very clear that its addressee is Abdullah Atham and his fellow Christians. And if it is read further, it becomes even clearer. But I think that this is clear and should not waste more time. But if there is further explanation in it that why and to whom the illegitimate child was said. If you want, I will read it. Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No need. Mirza Nasir Ahmad, okay, I have done this of July. I have some, twenty (20), twenty-five (25) written. So all of them... if you want, the three that you have... I... in the ones given... This is Shahid al-Lisan, March 1914, those who do not pledge allegiance are hell-bound. This question was asked, it is written. The topic under discussion in Tashhid al-Azhan is not who is in hell and who is not. Rather, the topic under discussion is that it is not possible for there to be two (2) words from Allah Almighty, in reality from Allah Almighty, and there is contradiction in them. So the topic is different. There it is written that: "Mutual contradictions and disagreements in revelations severely harm Islam." That is, if it is understood that there are two (2) revelations from Allah Almighty Himself, in reality, and there is contradiction within them, then this is very damaging to Islam, because of the clear Quran. 862 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug. 1974 There is great clarity in this. This matter is against the instructions, it is not discussed in detail in Surah Mulk - it is very clear that you will never see any difference in God's attributes and their manifestations. Anyway, this topic is under discussion here: Mutual contradictions and disagreements of revelations cause severe damage to Islam and give opponents of Islam a chance to make fun and object, and in this way the religion is humiliated. How can it be that God inspires one person that you are God's chosen one and better and superior to all the believers of this time and the Messiah of the Prophets and the Promised Messiah and the reformer of the fourteenth century and beloved of God and in your rank like the prophets and God's messenger and honorable and close to His court and like Jesus, son of Mary. And on the other hand, inspire another that this person is Pharaoh and a liar and a prodigal and a sinner and a disbeliever and such and such. Inspire that person that whoever does not follow you and does not enter into your allegiance and remains your opponent is disobeying God and the Messenger and for this reason is destined for hell. And then inspire another that those who follow him are choosing the path of misery. So here we are talking about revelations, not about any announcement from oneself. And the main question under discussion is that the contradiction within the two (2) revelations that are revealed from the sky by Allah Almighty cannot happen. Tasheeh-ul-Azhaan August 1917 page 57-58. In this, in the question... as far as we have noted... it was that it is written here that: There will be only one prophet. So as far as this sentence... if the note has been taken correctly... is concerned, this sentence is not written anywhere. What is written is something else. It is this, I will read it out: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 863 Those people who repeatedly say why there was only one prophet in Islam, there should have been many prophets, they should keep in mind this distinctive mark of the finality of prophethood that the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is the seal of God. Only he can be proven to be a prophet whom God has confirmed to be a prophet through His seal. As for the objection as to why God's seal declared only one person as a prophet. So this objection is not against us but against the expediency and wisdom of God Almighty. If our authority was over God or His seal, then undoubtedly this question could have been raised against us. God would foretell the coming of many prophets through His seal... God would foretell the coming of many prophets through His seal... then we would have no choice but to accept it. Now when the divine seal declares only one person to be a prophet, then who are we to say why there is only one prophet. Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) has also given the same answer to this question. Ahead is that excerpt: A person asked, do you claim to be a prophet? He said yes, that all the elders have always believed that the series of divine conversations is always ongoing among this deceased community... In this sense (divine conversations in this sense) we are prophets. Otherwise, why would we call ourselves Ummati? (That is, Ummati Prophet means the aspect of Ummati is heavy. We say that whatever blessings can reach anyone, whatever blessings can reach anyone, can only be reached through following the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. There is no other way besides this. It is not right to create a new meaning of a term from oneself. It is also mentioned in the Hadith Sharif that the coming Messiah 864 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug. 1974 ...Prophet will also be, and follower too. Follower is the one who, by receiving blessings from the Holy Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, attains all perfections. By receiving blessings from the Holy Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, attains all perfections, but how can a person who has already attained the rank of prophethood become a follower? He is already a prophet. The questioner asked: "If a prophet of this kind can exist in Islam, then who was the prophet before you?" Hazrat said: "This question is directed not only at me, but also at Hazrat Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace. He has named only one person Nabi. Before that, no man was named Nabi. I am not responsible for answering this question." So, this makes it all clear. "There will be only one prophet" – this is not the debate. The debate is elsewhere. Al-Fazl, November 13, 1942: "Like the Parsees..." (To a member of his delegation) Call: "Al-Fazl." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To the Secretary) Where is Al-Fazl? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "...like the Parsees, they made their separate demand." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: November 13, 1946. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1946. This is November 13, 1946. If this entire sermon were read, then the question would not have arisen at all. Let me briefly explain it first. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 865 In this sermon, it is stated that when the discussion arose about which areas would become part of Pakistan and which would go to the other side, a controversy arose that Ahmadis should not be considered within the Muslim community because they consider themselves separate, and the number of Muslims decreases. Especially the Gurdaspur area had a ratio of 51 to 29 between Muslims and non-Muslims, and this ratio included the Ahmadiyya community, which was present in Gurdaspur in large numbers. So, this was a trick played by the Hindus. To strengthen the Muslim League at that time, the then Khalifa of the Ahmadiyya community, whom we call Khalifa II, joined forces with the Muslim League and prepared a plan to strengthen the Muslim League's position, and all of this is in the sermon. In consultation with the Muslim League, he raised the question, "You give separate rights to the Parsis, why not to us?" That is, the Muslim League said, "We will benefit if you do this." So, In collusion with Muslim League, he did what he did. And sometimes I would read out the entire "Al Fazl," and sometimes I would include it for the record. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Convince him of it. Mr. Chairman: Include it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. It starts with "Ramali's Journey and its Purpose." Delhi's journey and its purpose. There are red marks on it from where the original article begins. And all this was done to serve the Muslim League. Nothing happens with just one sentence. But now I think there is no need for it. 866 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug., 1974 Our history has recorded this in January 23, 1946. The history of the subcontinent... that the Ahl-e-Hadith demanded that they should have separate rights. I'll leave this in the middle. There was a question, "Al-Fadl, July 16, 1949": They panic. This is how it goes on. And then at the end it is: We will devour his religion. This was the question that it was said to Muslim sects. There is no such article in July 1949. But as I promised, we will look back and forth, as far as possible, in July 25, 1949. there is an article. Maybe because of this, instead of July 25, 1979. If I am allowed, I would also like to thank him for asking this question because a very good thing will come out, for everyone. These are excerpts from it, from the one on July 25: Whenever a voice is raised in the world by Allah, the people of the world definitely oppose it. Divine movements have never been launched in the world without opposition. Whenever a divine movement is launched in the world, some animosity and malice arise among people without reason and without cause. So much malice and animosity that one is surprised to see it, a Muslim to Now that is the question: "A Muslim to Muhammad, the Messenger Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, the love that he has for him, setting it aside, the devotion he has for him, forgetting it, if only the blessed person of the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is seen, then his person is extremely innocent, extremely flawless and seems to be extremely selfless and sacrificing for the world. You, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI URUJUF DELALIA VIUN You are never seen depriving anyone of their rights in your entire life. You, peace be upon him, are not seen engaging in riots and chaos. But nearly fourteen hundred years have passed, and the enemy does not refrain from opposing you and holding malice and spite against you. Whoever rises and wants to write something about religion, immediately becomes ready to attack your person. What is the reason for this? Everything has a cause. It must have either a physical cause or a spiritual cause. No physical cause for the opposition to the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is apparent. Further on, something is broken about the physical cause, which I have left out. He further writes: There must be a spiritual reason for it. There is a spiritual reason for it, and it is only this: that the hearts of the opponents of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, feel that Islam is a truth; if it is not stopped, this truth will spread and overcome them. This is the only thing due to which people have severe animosity towards the person of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Whatever other reasons are given for this opposition, they exist in other prophets with even greater glory than in you. Therefore, it is certain that the reason for this animosity is not fighting and conflict but a spiritual thing because of which this animosity has arisen, and that is: Islam is a religion possessing truth, Islam is a religion destined to prevail, Islam is a religion that will consume other religions. Seeing this, the ears of the opponents immediately perk up, and they get ready for confrontation." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 20, 1974 So, the one who devours is not referring to himself, but the whole discussion is about Islam, and he is stating that Islam is a religion that devours other religions. And the question was asked as if the Ahmadiyya community has said that we will devour you. Here is another excerpt that completes it: These people are victims of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, may God bless him and grant him peace. These people are victims of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, may God bless him and grant him peace. That is why they have become opponents of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, and this is the only reason why people are enemies of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace. And if this is the only reason, then this should not be a cause of sorrow for us, but should be a cause of happiness. People worry about why there is opposition. People get annoyed at why they are being treated with animosity. People get irritated that why they are being kept. But if the reason for abusing and hurting is also that they are our (meaning Islam's) victims, then we should not worry, nor should we have any concern, but we should be happy that the enemy feels (the enemy of Islam) that if any new movement arises in us, it will devour their religion. So, this whole statement is about the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza! Why in 1949? Did any Christian missionaries start any inquiry against Islam when they said this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In 1949? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From fourteen hundred years until today. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 869 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: At the moment, that movement is ongoing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Regarding the content, which they are calling "enemy," I am asking you what incident occurred in 1949 that they mentioned? Who were the enemies? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The enemies of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). These words are so clearly stated in it. There is no ambiguity left in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is some confusion because they say: "I am فنافی الرسول (absorbed in the Prophet)." "I say Muhammad." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, that is absolutely... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So we want to ask the enemy that he is saying "Muhammad" on his own accord. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I say that they are not saying it on their own accord, nor can those who say it, say it on their own accord, because he is the Second Khalifa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who were the enemies of Islam? Who were attacking the Holy Prophet, to whom this is referring? Can you say something? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Christians. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Where were the Christians doing that? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can you give any instance where a Christian wrote an article, gave a speech, in Pakistan, in the world, to which this is referring? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If you allow me two hours to read, I will tell you all the abuses that the Christians have hurled at the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). 870 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 20th, 1974 Yahya Bakhtiar: My question is, Mirza Sahib! In 1949, when Mirza Sahib gave a sermon and said that the enemies are worried, the enemy is our prey. Who were those enemies? What was the need for him to mention it in the sermon? Because Mirza Sahib used to think before speaking. So there must have been a specific problem, some issue. I want to ask about that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hazrat Khalifatul Thani had launched a campaign against Christians all over the world. And at the time when Hazrat Khalifatul Thani or any other Khalifa of the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, we usually call him Imam of the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, but you say no, you should use your own "designation." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I have only asked one question from you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I'll tell you... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can you tell me any specific incident, any specific statement from the Christians, any speech, any writing from that time, in response to which he was saying that...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It's always there. I mean, did any incident happen on July 25th? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, two months before, two days before, two weeks before. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It has been happening throughout the century. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not about the century. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those things that happened in the first century, shouldn't those be answered? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not talking about the century. Mr. Chairman: The question of the Attorney-General is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying, can you tell me any incident? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: The question of the Attorney-General is...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is becoming general. 871 Mr. Chairman: Just a minute. The question of the Attorney-General is: the immediate cause for this, for delivery of this. The witness is requested to confine himself...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can you tell any incident? Mr. Chairman: ......to this question only. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because of which they said this? Mr. Chairman: ✔ Not a general reply but regarding this specific question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That which is, that also exists in it, but approximately nearly fourteen hundred years have passed, the enemy does not refrain from opposing you and holding malice and spite regarding you. Here, the answer to your question is this phrase. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not in this place! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There are thousands. But I cannot tell at this time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, about this incident? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I cannot tell at this time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now I will tell you tomorrow morning, if this is what is to be done. Meaning, a subject is completely clear..... 872 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Sahib-ul-Mazmoon, it is quite clear to you. But it is my duty that it is not clear to me... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because so far, the Arguments that are happening, or what questions I am asking and getting answers to, according to that, my Conception of Islam is, it has become different. My Conception of Aali (High) has become different. So that is why I am asking who do you consider an "enemy"? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In this context. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said Christian, so I said any Christians... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Non-Muslim, actually the attacker was Hindu and Arya, especially among them, and Christians and at that time atheists were also included in this attack. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you are right, Mr. Sahib, Pakistan was formed in 1949. Neither any Hindu nor any Christian had the courage to, in Pakistan, commit any kind of blasphemy against you... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Is this your problem? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that's why I... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, yes, no, the answer to this is that even after Pakistan was formed, our Jihad with the non-Muslims was continuing in the same way as it was before the formation of Pakistan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That we will devour the enemies? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Islam will devour. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning we will devour the Hindus? SIVUSS-BAAMINATION OF DR Spruzzi UNAVE VOLEVA I JAN Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Islam will devour Islam with its spiritual superiority. It doesn't mean that group of fakirs who eat human flesh will devour it like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not saying that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Are there any other answers now? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, there are many answers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, will you file a copy of this 1949 sermon here? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will see, if there is a spare, then definitely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, please do it later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. There was a question regarding the mutiny of 1857, so in the note that we mentioned, it can only have the word "note": "Like thieves and robbers, the mutineers mutinied." So, if you then there is a question here, then repeat it. I have the answer anyway. I am asking this because the reference that was given does not contain the words "like thieves and robbers." Anyway, anyway, I will give the answer. (To a member of his delegation) Give it to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! What do you have? 014 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here, what he has written is "thieves and pirates" Yahya Bakhtiar: "...and bastards." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Like pirates, like bastards." (Pause) There was an incident later on in 1858, in 1858, in '57, in 1857, called the Tehrik-e-Azadi (Freedom Movement). This incident happened long before the year the Ahmadiyya Jamaat was founded. Only when we have what the people of that time wrote about it before us, can we reach the correct conclusion. So listen. Syed Nazeer Hussain Sahib, Muhaddith Dehlavi, says in "Risala Isha'at-us-Sunnah," Volume 7, Number 1, page 288, that Ahl-e-Hadith scholar Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Batalvi wrote in it that: Maulana Syed Nazeer Hussain Sahib, Muhaddith Dehlavi, in terms of the true meaning of Jihad, In terms of the true meaning of Jihad, he did not consider the rebellion of 1857 as a Shariah-compliant Jihad (but what did he consider it?). Rather, he considered it dishonesty, betrayal, malice, and obstinacy, and deemed participation in it and assisting it as sinful and a crime. Upon Maulana Syed Nazeer Hussain, Muhaddith Dehlavi. Khawaja Hassan Nizami Sahib, a well-known personality, says: It is fair to acknowledge that the Indian soldiers and local residents also went to extremes of cruelty and mercilessness at the beginning of the mutiny. And their oppressions were so horrific that any kind of punishment could be said to be justified for them. They killed helpless women. They did not hesitate to slaughter pregnant women. They tossed suckling babies in the air and impaled them on the tips of bayonets, rendering them speechless. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 875 They pierced the innocent. They would stab pregnant women in the stomach with swords. In short, there was no atrocity that their hands did not inflict upon the British and their wives and children. Their shameful acts have forever humiliated all of India in the eyes of mercy and justice. My head hangs low in shame and remorse (this is Hasan Nizami Sahib) when I read about the painful barbarity of my nation that it perpetrated within the city of Delhi on May 11, 1857, and in the time that followed. (The Death Throes of Delhi, page 23, by Khawaja Hasan Nizami) He himself wrote this. Bahadur Shah Zafar. Bahadur Shah Zafar, in the written statement he gave before the court in Diwan-i-Khas, Delhi Fort, on March 9, 1858, wrote that: "I sent two palanquins and ordered that cannons also be sent. After that, I heard that the palanquins had not even reached when Mr. Fraser, the Fort Commander, and the ladies were all murdered. (Not long) after this, the rebellious soldiers barged into the Diwan-i-Khas, spread everywhere in the place of worship, and surrounded me on all sides, assigning guards. These ungrateful wretches brought several English men and women whom they had captured in the magazine and intended to kill them. In the end, although I tried my best to restrain the mischievous rioters, they paid no attention to me at all and took those poor souls outside to kill them. As for the orders, the real state of affairs is that on the day the army arrived, the English officers were killed, and I was imprisoned; I remained under their control and had no authority of my own." 876 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY UK PAKISTAN 120th Aug.. IV/4 This is "Muqadma Bahadur Shah" (The Case of Bahadur Shah) by Khwaja Hasan Nizami. And on it, Khwaja Hasan Nizami Sahib states that these are Bahadur Shah Badshah's own signatures. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan: It should be considered that in that era, the people who raised the flag of Jihad were such bad and worthless people that besides drinking alcohol, watching entertainment, dance, and spectacles, they had no other occupation. How could such people be considered leaders and guides of Jihad? How could such people be considered leaders and guides of Jihad? In this chaos, nothing happened according to religion. In this chaos, nothing happened according to religion. Everyone knows that embezzling the government treasury and belongings, which were entrusted, and betraying the employees was not right according to religion. It is quite obvious that the killing of innocents, especially women, children, and the elderly, was a great sin according to religion. Then how could this revolt be Jihad? Yes, however, a few wicked people, for the greed of the world, to fulfill their desires and their own thoughts, and to mislead the ignorant, gathered a crowd under the name of Jihad. Then this was also one of the wicked deeds of the corrupt, not Jihad in reality. But when the army of Bareilly reached Delhi and a fatwa was issued again, which became famous and in which Jihad was written as obligatory, it was undoubtedly not original. The printer of this fatwa, who was a corrupt and very old wicked man. The printer of this fatwa, who was constrained and a very old wicked man. To mislead and entice the ignorant, he wrote and printed people's names on it to give it prominence; he even printed the seal of a person who had died before the mutiny. This is "Asbab-e-Baghawat-e-Hind" (The Causes of the Indian Revolt), page one. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 877 Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi writes: Fighting those who have made a covenant and taken an oath is never a Sharia-compliant, national or religious Jihad; fighting those who have made a covenant and taken an oath can never be a Sharia-compliant Jihad; rather, it is called animosity and corruption. Those Muslims who participated in the sedition of 1857 were severely sinful, and according to the Quran and Hadith, they were corrupt and of bad character; most of them were like cattle. Some who were called the elite and scholars were also ignorant of the original religious sciences of the Quran and Hadith, lacking understanding. (Risala Ishaat-ul-Allah, Vol. 9, No. 10, pp. 309-310, 1886) Then listen to what Nawab Siddiq Hassan Khan Sahib says. Nawab Siddiq Hassan Khan Sahib has written in the book Hidayat-us-Sail and several other books: The lands of India are Dar-ul-Islam, not Dar-ul-Harb. All the chiefs and subjects of India have a permanent treaty of friendship with the British Government. Therefore, it is not permissible for any person in India to wage Jihad against the British Government and break this treaty. The conduct of the insurgents with the British Government in the mutiny of 1857 was sedition, not Jihad. Then Shams-ul-Ulama Maulana Zakaullah Khan Sahib says: "Until Bakht Khan came to Delhi, there was very little talk of the fatwa of Jihad in the city. This was the work of foolish Muslims who would go around shouting 'Jihad, Jihad.' But when Bakht Khan came, whom the people of the city called 'Kam Bakht Khan' (Unfortunate Khan)... 878 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 120th Aug., 1974 Bakht Khan had it written. When he came to Delhi, he had this fatwa written. He gathered the clerics in the Jama Masjid and had them sign and stamp the fatwa for jihad, and Mufti Sadruddin also put his fake seal on it under their compulsion. But Maulvi Mahbub Ali and Khwaja Ziauddin did not put seals on the fatwa and boldly said that the conditions of jihad according to Islamic religions do not exist. The clerics who had put seals on the national never went to the hills to fight the British. Maulvi Nazir Hussain, who was the leader and pioneer of the Wahhabis, had a Mem (European woman) hidden in his house. Tarikh Murooj Ehad Saltanat English Dar Hind Hissa Kou Soum, 675 and 676. This is the writing of Maulana Khan Bahadur Shams-ul-Ulama Muhammad Zakaullah Sahib. In the background, one more thing remains. Sheikh Abdul Qadir Sahib, a very well-known figure, Sheikh Abdul Qadir Sahib, B.A. Barrister-at-Law, Secretary Sharafat Committee, Sialkot, in his magazine "Imaginary Atrocities of Turks on Their Own" writes that: In 1857, a mutiny broke out in India. To quell this mutiny, the British forces were allowed to pass through Egypt to reach India. To quell this mutiny, the British forces were allowed to pass through Egypt to reach India by His Holiness Khalifat-ul-Muslimeen Sultan Al-Muazzam himself. The Boer War took place in South Africa. The Turks sided with England. Thousands of Turks offered their services to fight and die under the British flag. Prayers were offered in mosques for the victory and support of the British. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 879 In this context, the objection to this writing holds no weight when Hazrat Masih Maud (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) stated: "In 1857, the condition of Muslims had deteriorated to the point that, apart from immorality and sin, the leaders of Islam remembered nothing else, which greatly affected the common people as well. In these times of completion, they illegitimately and disagreeably confronted the British government, despite being loyal and subjects, even though such a confrontation and such a jihad were not religiously permissible for them." Compared to the references I read earlier, this is a very mild reference, and there is no objection to it. (To a member of his delegation) Are there more? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you have more now? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will ask you questions later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just read that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. There was a question about "Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume Nine," regarding "those hell dwellers." It's just one question, about just one passage. It had come up again. I had already answered it, there's no need for it. There is a question about a book called "Sirat-ul-Abdal," on page 193. There is an objection regarding a passage on that page. So, if that passage, if we couldn't note it down, if that passage could be read out, from page 193, that would be better. Otherwise, I will answer it without it. 880 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 had gone. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which book is this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "There is a statement on page 193 of Sirat-ul-Abdal regarding which a question was asked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You may answer the next question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I will answer this. Then if there is any other need, you may ask in the supplementary. The answer to this is that "Sirat-ul-Abdal" which is a book that has only sixteen pages. So out of those sixteen pages, which 193rd page has been searched on which the objection has been raised? The book has only sixteen pages in total. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it must be from another volume. [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Madam Deputy Speaker (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbusi.}} Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We even checked in any Volume in which several books are printed together, even in that Volume it ends at 138, this book ends above one hundred and forty-four. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This reference is not even there? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no such page. I am coming to it, I will answer it, there is no page 193 in any edition. Meaning where the books are printed together, this is it. The ones that are printed together, under the name of "Our Spiritual Treasures", this book started from 59 in it, CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 881 And this ended here on 44. This, the one I mentioned in Volume 2, isn't there either. Okay! (20) The pages that are in the book do not have that reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It's not there at all? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it isn't. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, we will take a look. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, do take a look. (Pause) There was a question regarding a verse from a poem by Qazi Muhammad Akmal Sahib... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That question is finished. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The first one, the "Rafe-ul-Bala," is that finished? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which one? No, Sir, regarding that, you said, didn't you, that they would expel him from the Jamaat? Then it was read out to you, so that was finished, there were no further questions after that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, some more references have been found in that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, you want to elaborate further on that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes, not elaborate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please do. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This verse is also present in it: We are elaborating on this that at the time, this one, the poem, "Ghulam Ahmad, having become the chosen one, You have attained this status in the world." 882 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 120th Aug. 1974 The Holy Prophet (PBUH) announced that whatever your status is, that is it. In the same poem, there is this verse: Muhammad has descended upon us again. And is greater than before in his glory. The meaning of "greater than before" can create misunderstanding. He wrote this article in Al-Fazl on August 13th: "I never meant what is being attributed to me. I said that according to the Hadith, Mujaddids (reformers) come at the beginning of every century in the Ummah of Muhammad, and these Muhammad Deen has nothing of his own and the light of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) shines in their beings and is the manifestation of the Prophet. So, what I meant to say was that the before the Mujaddids, the manifestation of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) was there. This is his statement. I haven't finished his answer yet; he further writes that: "But some people misunderstood it, and I was severely reprimanded, and when I published my speech in book form in 1991, at that time people were who were after me that what have you done". This is his Diwan (collection of poetry) of 1991, published for the first time, that is, after five years: In this poem, I have removed it because of the people who were after me. I kept telling them, I kept swearing (it is attached in it). that this is not what I mean. I swear by God that this is what I mean. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 883 That a more glorious manifestation than the previous reformers has occurred. You swear by me… …I leave aside others, even the people of the community do not trust my oaths. And I am tired of swearing oaths." The person who is a poet about this says that "this is what I mean." There is no objection to this meaning because he says that the appearance of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in this century is more glorious than the previous reformers. The comparison is with the reformers, not with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Secondly, he says that he admits that some people got the idea from this question that was asked at that time that this misunderstanding would arise, and they started bothering me from the beginning, and in 1911 I removed this from my poem, and after 1906 I did not publish this poem in any magazine or newspaper or book. And then after 38 years, you understand, in 1944, he wrote in the August 13 newspaper that: "I am tired of swearing oaths. And not only you, but even the community members do not trust me. This is not what I mean." So these new references that have come, they are added to that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, I have a couple of questions about this for you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! One principle is that whatever you say here, or I say, or the Assembly says, the law that it passes, then they do not have the authority later to say, "This is what I meant." Then it is up to the court or some other institution. The words of Akmal Sahib that he said, no matter how much he says, "This is not what I meant, that was not it," whatever it is, then the public judges. 804 NAIKINAL ASIQNIDAS UP TANILAN 1400 Aus" KREN what the meaning was. I am saying as a principle that the right of interpretation does not belong to the author. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is, that is a legal question.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am telling the same thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not in literature, in poems. Listen to me completely. This does not work in poetry. In poetry, we have an idiom: "The owner of the dead and Imani" The one who says will tell the meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's right. The second thing I was saying was that when the question came before you, it was: "Was the Qasida recited in the presence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib?" You said: "No." Right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I still say "No." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then after that the question came whether it was published in Al-Badr in his presence. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We said "Yes." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You all said, not just one. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now I say "Yes." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now you say! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Published in 1906 but.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said you said that: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 885 If they knew and it was in front of them, then he would be expelled from the Jamaat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since, let my question be completed. ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You also had the impression that a very wrong thing was done, according to your opinion, Mirza Sahib also had the impression that it was a very wrong thing, they would expel him from the Jamaat. Then he himself said that no, he said "JazakAllah". And this was proven. It was published in his presence. That was the only question, that he became very happy with that ode in which it was said that his status is even higher than Muhammad's. This is what we want to say. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the thing is, these things that you are talking about, they were not published at all in Al-Badr. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying that they were published in Al-Badr. I only said that it was published in Al-Badr when Mirza Sahib was alive, he was alive, and he did not take any action on it, we have no record that he disapproved of it. On the other hand, we have this on record. It is Akmal Sahib's statement that he praised it, said "JazakAllah" and was happy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And as a result, in 1911, he removed it from his poem! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's right. After Mirza Sahib's death, he did it, the public became very angry about it. But this is a fact. That Mirza Sahib approved it and was happy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our, our history, our history has not even recorded that Hazrat Founder of Ahmadiyya ordered it to be read. 886 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This Sheikh... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I don't want to ask anything else right now. "Al-Fadl" is your newspaper. In it, Akmal says that it was read in his presence and he liked it. That is enough for my point of view. If "Al-Fadl" is my newspaper or Jamaat-e-Islami's newspaper, then I can say that it is correct, it is wrong. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then according to your own principle, which you just said: "Al-Fadl is not my newspaper," "Al-Fadl" is not the newspaper of any Khalifa of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "You mean" it is the expression of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, their. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not even the newspaper of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, it is the newspaper of an organization of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this is their voice. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It gives their opinion, on their behalf... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is absolutely not their voice, it is absolutely, absolutely not the voice of the Jamaat, "Al-Fadl." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is great! It would be great if you could say this! We are having all the disputes with "Al-Fadl" here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely not of the Jamaat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 887 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then all these disputes are over. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which group does this belong to? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which group does this belong to? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It doesn't belong to any group. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let me tell you something. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There was a Dawn newspaper, started in 1941 in Delhi. The whole world used to say that it was the voice of the Muslim League. It wasn't an official organ of the Muslim League either. Today there is "Musawat." Everyone says it belongs to the People's Party. It is not the official newspaper of the People's Party. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And everyone says that the trust's newspapers belong to today's government. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And they object to them. In your opinion, is that objection to the government correct? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking, what is officially, you know. A trust is a different thing. "Musawat" newspaper, they say, okay, it belongs to the People's Party. "Jasarat," they say, belongs to Jamaat-e-Islami, although it doesn't belong to Jamaat-e-Islami, it probably belongs to those who sympathize with them, it raises their voice. 888 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 120th Aug. 1974 You fight Al-Fazl, your party does. You are the ones who publish it. Your opinions and your sermons all appear in it, all appear in it, and you say that it is not your newspaper at all. Well, that's perfectly fine! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not mine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not talking about the personal Khalifa. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Nor is it of the Ahmadiyya community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is your voice, the voice of your community. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Nor is it my voice. Copying some parts of my voice does not make the newspaper my voice. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, it is copying parts of your voice. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It copies some parts of my voice... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And everything that it says cannot be attributed to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It doesn't twist things, does it? The newspaper does twist things. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the scribe makes so many mistakes that you would be surprised if I showed you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, a scribe is one thing, twisting things is another. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That twisting becomes a semantic twisting afterward. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, do you have any other references now? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, there are many references. (Pause) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 889 I have recorded here that Qazi Akmal Sahib's statement that the Promised Messiah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) heard it and said "Jazakallah" 38 years later, this incident is not recorded anywhere in our history. Therefore, I consider it completely wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did he lie? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He lied, say whatever you want. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Akmal lied, "Al-Fadl" reported a lie, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Qazi Akmal Sahib lied, lied in the sense that our history has not recorded this incident anywhere, and 38 years later a person is saying something that happened 38 years ago, and his memory is such that he is writing that his poem, which is not his last, is his last poem. Reaching this part of his life when he does not remember his own poems, how can what he said about someone else be acceptable? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's right. Mirza Sahib! A person does not remember a poem. Such a big event that Mirza Sahib was present there, he praised him, no Ahmadi forgets. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No Ahmadi has ever mentioned this incident anywhere in any writing, in any lecture, in any book, in any article, that's what I am saying. (Pause) And on the contrary, it is recorded in our tradition that he used to recite his poems in front of the Promised Messiah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and you used to say, "I was busy with my work, I was thinking, I didn't hear anything." This tradition is recorded. And that tradition that he heard and did this, for 38 years no one even mentioned it. How can I own it? 890 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Al-Badr" was your newspaper, your newspaper, of the Jamaat, or was it not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that was not either, that was not either. This, this is in Al-Hakam of February 1923, when there was no dispute about Qazi Akmal Sahib etc.'s poetry, this one, this is printed, a narration regarding the Imam's absorption: Hafiz Moinuddin Sahib's series of poetry recitation was ongoing... A Munshi Zafar Ahmad Sahib, a great elder, is our companion, this is his narration: Munshi Zafar Ahmad Sahib was called and was present in Qadian and stayed close to Hazrat Sahib. This continued for a few days. One day Munshi Ji submitted, "Sir, what do you keep listening to, Hafiz Sahib does not let anyone sleep (Hafiz Sahib used to recite poetry), nor is he a melodious voice. Everyone is troubled. How do you keep listening?" (This was the essence of Munshi Sahib's words.) You laughed and said, "I do not know what he is reciting, nor do I listen with the thought that he is melodious. Rather, the truth is that looking at the state of Islam and the attacks of the Christians, a passion rises in my mind, and sometimes I fear that my brain will burst in this passion because Hafiz Sahib comes with great sincerity to lessen it, I told him to recite any poetry he remembers to divert the religious attention to the other side, now this poor fellow recites with great sincerity, and I try my best to turn my thoughts towards it and that stubborn denial that exists in the mind after seeing the current situation, may be lessened for a while, but it does not lessen, and I do not even know what they are saying. If you do not like it, then he should be stopped." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 891 The person who was so consumed with the sorrow and concern for Islam that he constantly focused his attention on that particular subject, People who wrote poetry would recite poems to him, children would tell their stories, and he would be engaged with them? To attribute something like that to him, which was attributed 38 years later, which was not mentioned in any reference for 38 years, is, in my opinion, a great injustice. The rest of the world can say whatever it wants. And he removed eleven after "Jazak Allah". Okay, this one Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Al-Fadl," which department does it belong to in your group? Let it be on the record. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said it is under a department of your group. Which department is it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Its general affairs are managed by Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya. But the way these are independent, like your Thal Authority, etc., etc., in the same way, it is independent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supervision of Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: General, general supervision. And its manager and editor are completely independent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So who supports them financially? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It stands on its own feet, almost. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, there must have been a start to it. 892 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is it, Sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there any company that is providing financial support? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A firm? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It stands on its own feet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It was standing on its feet, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But who invested the money? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What, Sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who invented the money? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Its expenditure is equal to its income. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, who is it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who invested? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those who contribute and purchase the paper. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who are those people? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those who purchase the paper. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, who are they? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There are Ahmadis as well as others. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 893 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, you don't answer my question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I didn't understand your point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question is, is there a company, is there a newspaper, Pakistan Times? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no company. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A business cannot run without a company. Someone must be its owner. When the declaration is filed. Who filed its declaration? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Why? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who are its directors? Who is its managing board? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) No, no, in whose name is the declaration? (To the Attorney General) Giani Obaidullah is its manager, Giani Obaidullah Sahib, Giani Obaidullah Sahib, everyone must be familiar with him, he is the one who used to come to Punjabi Darbar almost daily. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, no, from this— Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning he is the one who filed the declaration. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then financially, who invested the money? Was there any money from the Jamaat in it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this, this is old history. I'll tell you. I understand your point. In the beginning, two or three years, it's a very old story. Consider it like, yes. Tabish 894 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug. 1974 It was about 55, 57 years ago when Hazrat Khalifa Sani started it. And at that time, that is, Hazrat Khalifa Sani started it. This is about the time of Hazrat Khalifa Awal (may Allah be pleased with him). He was young. He started this paper and initially invested his personal expenses in it, and after that he handed it over to Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya. At that time, Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya was almost synonymous with Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya. But today, when we are talking, Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya is a separate Jamaat which is spread in almost every region of the world. And therefore, it is not correct to attribute this newspaper to Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, rather it is not attributed to Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya. An Ahmadi, the General supervises, Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya still does the General supervision. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is a declaration of one individual. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why does he do it? Did he make an investment or what? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no investment was made. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then why is he doing it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is doing general supervision so that if something of this kind comes up that is not in the interest of the Jamaat, then he can see it himself. Look, for example...for example... 15 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let me give an example. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question is simple: only he can supervise who has a right. From where did he get the right to supervise? Right now I cannot supervise the Pakistan Times, even if I want to. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Very unfortunate. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 895 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know how they have got this power to supervise when they have nothing to do with it financially and otherwise? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Firstly, they buy a lot of newspapers and pay for them. Secondly, the newspaper that they have, initially, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad Sahib, who was not the Khalifa at that time, started it. And our Jamaat generally exercises oversight over all newspapers. The whole cannot do it, people make mistakes. For example, we have a newspaper. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: By "oversight" you mean both supervision and control. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, general oversight does not mean that someone is sitting over it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, is it supervision or control? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there is no control, and no supervision either. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say that if something happens against your party, then you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we tell them, "What have you done?" regarding that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, well then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Jamaat is defamed... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then that becomes control. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then that becomes control. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If that is the technical term, I am not familiar with it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Supervision" is more or less passive interest. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir? 896 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Supervision, you should note in that, that this thing has come into it. But you cannot give directions. But 'control' means that you give directions........ Brother! Correct this. That they are acting against the interests of the community. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Either correct it or they will leave the community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this is an injunction. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is moral pressure, mine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No financial? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no financial. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely no financial. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can't tell which firm it is? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There was no firm at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there no company either? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No company, no limited company, no private limited company. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it a trust? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No trust, just gave it like that. [At this stage Mr. Chairman (Shaibzada Farooq Ali) Occupied the Chair.] Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is, we can say that Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad Sahib gave it to the Jamaat. But the way the Jamaat has taken it, that's what I'm talking about. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This, this is enough. They gave it to the Jamaat. They... they have investment in the Jamaat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He clearly gave it to the Jamaat. But the method that the Jamaat has adopted is what I am telling you: that there is a person who is its Managing Director, and there is one who is in general supervision of the Jamaat. Those who are... those who are paid, for example... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right, he gave it to the Jamaat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They do their own thing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Jamaat gave them a gift that this is yours, we will have no connection now, we will only do Supervision, that's what it means. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Actually, the relationship that our Ahmadis have with each other is kind of like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's exactly what the problem is, Mirza Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is difficult to understand the law in this, the legal situation is difficult. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's the whole problem. Any other questions? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there are more. One question that was asked was: "6 له الفتح القمر المنيروان له وصل القمران المشركان و تنكرو" It mentions two (2) signs of the eclipses of the moon, moon, and sun. But this... 898 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 The thing that is creating confusion is only about the number. But one is a miracle, and one is the prophecy of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). That is also from the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), but a miracle is a different thing in terms of its importance. And the prophecy of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) regarding the future is a completely different thing. This eclipse of the moon and the sun is the fulfillment of a tremendous prophecy of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). But the miracle of the moon, the splitting of the moon, is so powerful that no one in the world can bring its example. But some Muslims have denied it, the commentators of today, that it was not in this sense, so here... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not poetry, Mirza Sahib! that he himself would come and say what it means, this is not poetry. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This, this is a hadith that is mentioned in your, your poetry. What I have read is poetry. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was clarifying it for that reason. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. (To a member of his delegation) Where is that? In the sky, there are two signs (To the Attorney General) This is a hadith from Dar Qutni: In the sky, there are two signs that have not been since the creation of the heavens and the earth. In this poem, there is mention of a prophecy, that poem is by Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him), and there is mention of a miracle, and both are related to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). One miracle you showed was the splitting of the moon, and one prophecy you made was about the eclipse of the moon and the sun, so there is nothing of your own here. You are saying here that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) showed a great miracle of splitting the moon, and you made a prophecy about me in which the eclipse of the moon and the sun will occur. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 899 is mentioned. Now, when the world doesn't go into its details, there have been many discussions on the splitting of the moon, and many books have been written. When the world saw the moon in two pieces, the world saw the moon in two pieces as a result of this miracle of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). It is such a powerful miracle. And the second thing you mentioned in this verse is that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) foretold for his latter days, for his future, a sign that in his time, on such and such days, there will be lunar and solar eclipses. So, the occurrence of lunar and solar eclipses is not a miracle in itself, nor is it a prophecy. However, the occurrence of eclipses according to the prophecy on specific days and in a specific time is the fulfillment of the prophecy. And the splitting of the moon, in comparison to that, is a miracle, a powerful miracle. We don't understand what the questioners didn't understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, they just want to point this out! Because sometimes a single reference can create a misunderstanding. But when several references are read together, like if you inflict one wound on a person, it will be a minor injury. But if you inflict similar wounds continuously, the person dies. Now, individually, these are small injuries. So, when we see that Mirza Sahib says: Even more glorious in his splendor than before, and then says: For them, one, and for me, the fourteenth night's moon. Then there is another like: The Holy Prophet had three thousand miracles, and I have thirty million. When such things are read, it becomes apparent. And Allama Iqbal—I am telling you this clearly so that the matter is clear in your mind as to why I am asking the question. Allama says that: 900 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug. 1974 Call "When I find out that they consider themselves superior to the Holy Prophet... Ultimately, these were the things that left an impression on ordinary Muslims that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib not only claimed prophethood, first an Ummah prophet, an inferior type of prophet, then after that stood in comparison, that I should be stood with him, then he says that I have become superior to them. This is the impression that I want clarification on. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. When it's my turn, I will answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is your turn. That is why I am saying there should be no misunderstanding. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I understand that. The thing is that this is your argument Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that Mirza Nasir Ahmad is weighty. But the weakness in it is that questions arise, ten, fifteen, twenty, somewhere, thirty, fifty such questions have arisen and it is understood that only from these forty or fifty questions, the general impression that is formed should be formed. The real answer to this is that if in response to them there are fifty thousand such phrases and references fifty thousand compared to fifty, who consider themselves a humble servant of the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, and who have acquired everything from the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, then when fifty Fifty thousand will come in comparison to fifty, then every person who has taken an impression after hearing the first fifty will have their impression changed. So now you have asked fifty questions, so allow me to present fifty thousand... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So Mirza Sahib Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then I assure you that your impression will also change. .i CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 901 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza Sahib, excuse my audacity, please don't mind.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It's not a question of fifty thousand and one. Even after fifty thousand prostrations: "Satan was ruined for not performing one prostration." What does it matter if he prostrated in worship for thousands of years? If a person worships for a hundred years, believes in Allah, believes in the Messenger, and then says, "No, I do not believe," he becomes a disbeliever even if he says it once. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely. And if, and if after one prostration there are fifty thousand prostrations of virtue? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is a different matter. Yes, that's right, that's right, we want clarification for that reason. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's what I'm saying, allow me, I will give fifty thousand dates and then counter them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mr. Mirza Sahib, we want it to be as brief as possible. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Clear, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am only drawing your attention for clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Brief and clarifying the truth. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mr. Mirza Sahib! The Assembly itself can reach a conclusion by reading these references. But the reason we are troubling you is for clarification. 1902 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 12th Aug, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am very grateful. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, Mirza Sahib! "The moon and you mentioned." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The verse that follows, after that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The moon and the sun," this flag of yours, does it also have these symbols, the crescent moon and the full moon? It was a question, I was asked. I said I'll ask because of that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our flag... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The crescent and the full moon... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the full moon... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's it, that's it. There was a lunar eclipse for the Holy Prophet on the first (day of the lunar month). Mirza Nasir Ahmad: إِنَّا ِلِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎ (Indeed, we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And for them, a solar eclipse on the fourteenth? No, no, this is at that time... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, no, it's alright. It's not that, but... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They said that you should clarify this: "There was a lunar eclipse for the Holy Prophet on the first (day), for me on the fourteenth." The first and the fourteenth, the fourteenth... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), the word "eclipse" itself was not used. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whatever was said, sir. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 903 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The first one. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Shaqq-ul-Qamar. And Shaqq-ul-Najm cannot be applied to the first one at all. It only applies to the fourteenth moon, or the thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth, when its full circle is complete, only then is the miracle of Shaqq-ul-Qamar applicable. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then is this moon... is this the symbol on your flag? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the symbol on our flag. Actually, the symbol on the flag, if you allow me, what we had in mind was that Islam was under severe attack in the world at that time. And from a worldly perspective, governments were not independent either, there was pressure from others, etc., etc. So at that time, according to our faith, a campaign has been launched by Allah Almighty which reflects the state of Islam at that time, not of fourteen hundred years ago, but of the current state of the crescent. Allah Almighty has promised the Muslim Ummah that it will once again reach its full glory, the fourteenth moon. This is what we have in mind. Let the observer understand whatever they want. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is not... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, this is related to both of those... both of Najm and Qamar. The verses related to it are in them. (Arabic) I am the heir to the wealth of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). (Arabic) I am one of the chosen descendants of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). 904 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 120th Aug. 1974 (Arabic) That who can say how one became an heir? You are not among the prophets? But spiritually, in this verse, you have said that I am your heir, and becoming an heir: (Arabic) That we, becoming spiritual offspring, have inherited the blessings from you.) (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar Mirza Sahib! Right here, where this question was, you are answering. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I am interrupting because the question I had was: "At the time of the Holy Prophet, the state of religion was like the moon of the first night, but at the time of Mirza Sahib, it will be like the full moon of the fourteenth night. It has become like the full moon." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where is this reference from? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am showing it now. This is "Khutba Ilhamia." (Pause) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 905 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am Mirza Nasir Ahmad, this is Khutba Ilhamia. (To a member of his delegation) Please show me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Pages 178 and 202 are given, I don't know on which page it is, take it out now. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So in this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, here the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has not been compared with himself, rather the then state of Islam has been compared with the final victory. Everyone knows this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just saying that he said this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not about himself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...it was the first crescent in his time" and... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Islam... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...in Mirza Sahib's time... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...became complete." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This discussion is about Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)... << Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Islam's moon became complete in Mirza Sahib's time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, the foundation of Islam was laid through the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And it was God Almighty's promise that all humanity would gather under the banner of Islam. Okay. That... 906 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 120th Aug. 1974 The movement started at that time. And if you go into history, briefly, with a little detail, then Islam prevailed in most parts of the known world at that time. America at that time was also known, unpopulated, Australia is unknown, semi-populated, or others. So the promise was given to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) that all the people of the world would gather under the banner of Islam. It started weakly with the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) himself, and very little Islam came out of Arabia in his lifetime. When we say that during the time of the Rashidun Caliphate, Islam spread to Africa, spread to Spain, and after that, well, it didn't spread. Well, I'll leave it at that. Here, the powers of Chosroes and Caesar came under the Rashidun Caliphate. When we talk about this, it will mean that on the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), God forbid... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was asking whether it has become complete, a full moon. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Islam has become complete in the presence of Mirza Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "It will become." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The presence is over, isn't it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib is not here now, is he? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this, this is a prophecy of the end times that in the end times, all of mankind will become one and gather under the banner of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, what they say here: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 907 "It will be my responsibility." Is the issue resolved? Is the moon full? Did Islam spread in their presence, in their lifetime? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not in my time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the era is still that of the Holy Prophet. Then it is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Exactly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you! The same thing again. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The message is the same, the Quran is the same as... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The era is of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), but you say "in the era of Abu Bakr..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I say that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So are you uttering blasphemy? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I mean, in his lifetime, in Mirza Sahib's lifetime... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not lifetime... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did the moon become full in Mirza Sahib's lifetime? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You, you have a movement. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The movement is of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And within the circle of the Holy Prophet's (peace be upon him) movement, there was a movement of the Rightly Guided Caliphs, there were movements of the Mujaddidin, and there were movements of the saints. Our great elders who went to Africa, crossing the desert, everything reverts and returns to Muhammad (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The point is, will it continue after his life? This series that is, this that is, means will it happen, will this era continue? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The status of Imam Mahdi and the seed is that of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), a spiritual, that is, a spiritual commander. Just like there are many commanders under a supreme commander, doing divisions etc., the position of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him), in terms of time, is one of the many spiritual sons of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) who came and served him. But God Almighty told the earlier righteous predecessors, they inferred from the Holy Quran, that the work entrusted to the Mahdi is spread over three centuries, it is not only related to his person. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, as far as the person of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was concerned, that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Until the Day of Judgment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. You said that Islam did not spread outside Arabia in his time... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I ask a straight question; please give me a straight answer. Now, the work that they do, they maintain it during their lifetime. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did not go outside Arabia... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: God forbid. What I said is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not saying that. 909 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am a sinner for the result I have created. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not a sinner, I want clarification. You yourself said that during their time, during their lifetime... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am saying that the mission of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has nothing to do with your worldly life, I am explaining this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then here... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And until the Day of Judgment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, then after that you rightly stated, what explanation does this have: "At the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), the state of religion was like the moon on the first night. But (a very big "but"), at the time of Mirza Sahib, it will be like the full moon on the fourteenth night." There are two personalities, two distinct personalities... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That... I gave this. I did not give the Khutba Ilhamia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please clarify this. (To Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari) Read it. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Here you go. "The Arabic text of Khutba Ilhamia is this. Should I read the Urdu translation or the Arabic?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Arabic. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: (Arabic) 910' NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Urdu Translation Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Two (2) Badr. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We did not understand. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, okay, it is also written in this that two (2) fathers not, the first night's moon not. If you give this book. Read this out. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I will send it right now. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, then I will give the explanation. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: "But the truth is that the spirituality of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, at the end of the sixth millennium (that is, in these days) is more complete and intense than in those years (that is, which was mentioned earlier, that is, the fifth millennium), but like the moon of the fourteenth night. And therefore, we do not need this sword and fighting group. And that is why God Almighty has chosen the count of centuries for the advent of the Promised Messiah like the count of the nights of Badr of the migration of the Holy Prophet, so that the count indicates that rank which is perfect in all ranks of progress, and that the count of 1400 and 2400 (some translation is forgotten. The count of 1400) is after the migration of Khatam-ul-Nabiyyin, peace and blessings be upon him." The Persian translation is correct. (Persian) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 911 ...that the promise of the dominance of the religion of the True God, which had already been made in the Clear Book, be fulfilled. That is, the saying of God Almighty: "And Allah has already given you victory at Badr when you were weak." So look at this verse like a foundation. Because this verse certainly indicates that Badr. First, that Badr that passed for the help of the former. The second is that Badr is a sign for the latter." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no mention of the first Bilal here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Now this is the reality of the "spirit of humanity." In the "Review of Religions"... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you write this down for us, we will give it to you in the evening in the second sitting. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This is a little... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I have written it down. Mr. Chairman: The answer, the answer..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This was a reference, I had written it down before as well, I have noted it. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have noted it, I had written it down. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you had written it down before... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then will you verify it? 912 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug, 1974 Mr. Chairman: The reference should be given to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did you say you would verify it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And I have noted here, "to verify". Mr. Chairman: The reference... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So that Josh, about that you had the "Wala" written? Or this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not "Khutba Ilhamia". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "At the time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), the state of religion was like the moon on the first night..." What I have, it is written on it "To be verified". You... mark is on it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then this is our mistake. We had noted that it belongs to "Ejaz". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, that was also there, this was also there. Mr. Chairman: It may be replied in the evening session. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: About "Ejaz-e-Masi". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, these are two separate ones. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that one, that other one is correct. Mr. Chairman: The references may be given to the witness. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That one, then that... Yes, the Senate session is at five o'clock. They had scheduled it earlier. A17.30 Yes, 7.30. The Delegation is permitted to leave. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And please have the references written down. Mr. Chairman: We will send the references; right now, We will send them to you right now. The librarian will hand over the books. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: The Committee of the whole House is adjourned to meet at 7.30 p.m. but the members, at 7.15 p.m. Maghrib time is at seven o'clock. Come at quarter past seven. A Member: It is at seven. Mr. Chairman: Seven o'clock, quarter past seven, quarter past seven. No, sir. And by half-past seven, until half-past seven, they were given the time of half-past seven, you were given quarter past seven because it took us two hours. I am sorry. It is all right. To collect together. It's okay. Please take care of the quorum in the evening. There is no quorum even now. Thank you very much. 914 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug. 1974 (The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib Prayers to re-assemble at 7.30 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghrib Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: They may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber). Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza Sahib, are some answers remaining? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. One, you had stated regarding the Hijri Shamsi, which is the Islamic calendar, why those months' names were kept. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You were explaining that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I had said that I will give it in writing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, keep it in the file. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding "Khutba Ilhamia," it was said that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was called "Hilal" and himself "Badr." So, two (2) three (3) pages have also been seen before and after, there is no such phrase anywhere. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Got it, we have got it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It isn't so. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We found it. (To Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari) No, Maulana, please confirm, the reference was ours. (To Mirza Nasir Ahmad) It is possible, that it is something else. He will recite it to you. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 915 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib has also mentioned this, in Al-Fazl Qadian, Volume 3, Number 76, dated January 1, 1917. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This was about the "Khutba Ilhamia". Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Regarding this, meaning he also said that: "You have, with great skill, made everyone understand this intricate issue through the example of the crescent and the full moon, that the full moon is none other than the Promised Messiah. The moon that was present during the night, meaning the Holy Prophet, so why should it be objectionable for it to be more splendid than its previous state?" The rest which... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Since we have not seen the book, I cannot say anything about it. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, I have noted that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely not: "At one time, there was no system in Al-Fazl to ensure that all the words were written correctly. No, this is the original "Khutba Ilhamia" book. Not from that, yes, they have recited it." (Pause) Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, page 275. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Were you saying page 273? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: 275, two hundred and seventy-five. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: (Arabic) It is very long ahead, but... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let the translation be read out. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes. 916 And Islam began like the crescent moon. And it was destined that in the end, in the last era, it would become a full moon (Badr), by the command of God Almighty. So, the wisdom of God Almighty willed that Islam should take the form of a full moon (Badr) in this century, which is similar to Badr in terms of numbers. So, this is a reference to the meaning of God Almighty's saying: "And Allah has already given you victory at Badr." So, ponder over this matter with careful consideration and do not be among the heedless. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This reference that has just been recited mentions Islam, not the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) or the Ahmadiyya movement. And as you know, the life of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was like the crescent moon of the first day, which some people could not even see. And then gradually Islam progressed and appeared in the world in the form of a full moon (Badr). And its beginnning: (Arabic) It is a verse from the Holy Quran. But instead of these two sentences, I will read the whole passage, and it will reveal what subject is being discussed here. Instead of 275, we CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 917 Coming to page 271. (Arabic) The truth is that the spirituality of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him: (Arabic) that the prophecy of two Badr is contained within it. (Arabic) One is the Badri manifestation of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, which is related to the earlier times: (Arabic) And one is that Badri manifestation of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, which is related to the end times. This spirituality is being discussed regarding the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him: (Arabic) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug. 1974 Then you say: That this verse has two inner meanings: (Arabic) (Arabic) And in which: (Arabic) The help that is mentioned, those are two helps: (Arabic) And regarding the prophetic appearance of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, what has been said, those are two appearances. All of this about the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him: (Arabic) 918 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 919 One "Badr" which they have read, relates to the era we are witnessing today. It was with the era that has passed. And one "Badr" is related to the final era. And that first era, this entire manifestation of "Badr," began with the Battle of Badr, and then in the life of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and after him in the life of the Companions, it reached its peak, and Islam became powerful in the then-known world, becoming the greatest power. The two powers of Chosroes and Caesar, which were recognized at that time, were subdued by the light of this "Badr." (Arabic) The state of Islam was like a crescent. As I mentioned, the state of Islam in his life was like a crescent. (Arabic) And it was destined that this crescent-like state of Islam would progress and eventually reach an era in which Islam would dominate the entire world. And just as the full moon of the fourteenth shines with all its glory, similarly, the "Badri" manifestation of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) will illuminate the entire world in this era. So, there are two things here. One is Islam, and the other is the holy being of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Regarding the holy being of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), it is stated here... 920 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Madam Deputy Speaker (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi.)] That two "Padar", two "Badar" will appear in the world, two "Badari" manifestations will occur, one will be related to the earlier times and one will be related to the later times. And regarding Islam it was said that Islam will initially start like a crescent. Then it will keep progressing, until in the later times it will dominate the entire world, and the state of Islam will become like "Badar". This is the second example. Meaning, one example of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is two "Badar" and one example of Islam whose initial state is like a crescent, and progressing, it is destined to become "Badar" in the later times. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said, Mr. Mirza Sahib! that there is no indication towards Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib in this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I did not say that in this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, so clarify that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, in this I have said that this is what the mention of these two "Badar" is, these two "Padran" are not two "Badar" and both are with the Holy Prophet (PBUH). You said: "Badar The first "Badar" manifestation did not happen in your life. The "Badar" that you became, that complete "Badar" was made in the lives of the Companions. Your "Badari" manifestation was not made in your life. After your passing, which was an extremely shocking thing, even at that time, even now, for us, the Caesar and the Kaiser, who were the biggest powers at that time, by defeating them, and breaking their better swords with non-branded swords by the miracle of God Almighty, there where these difficulties were becoming a barrier in spreading Islam, by erasing that, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in his spirituality, in his spiritual existence, that is why I: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 921 (Arabic) He started with (Arabic). The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) appeared in the world in his spiritual form as Badr, through the lives of the Companions which were your spiritual influences. And in the same way, your spirituality, just as in the era of the Companions, in the lives of the Companions, having become Badr, you became the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), in the same way in the latter days, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) becoming Badr, Mahdi and his group, meaning this is a prophecy. There are thousands of differences, but this is our belief. That in the same way, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) will shine as Badr in the lives of the Promised Mahdi and his group, and in their efforts and sacrifices, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) will shine. And for this reason, it is mentioned here that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) will be with the Mahdi in a metaphorical way. So in reality, those are the two (2) Badrs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this because it is your interpretation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's right. But the interpretation of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad Sahib is based on the same point, please note that. Maybe this is a wrong reference or not, but what I have here... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, please write down the page number, because we can only find out by looking at the pages before and after. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is from "Al-Fadl". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, which "Al-Fadl"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: January 1, 1916, Volume 3, Number 76. 922 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: January 1, 1916. That's enough. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You gave the example of Bilal and Badr. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I heard that, I noted it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "This intricate matter has been well understood by everyone, that the fourteenth moon is none other than the Promised Messiah. The moon that was at night, i.e., the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), so why should it be objectionable that his first state is more glorious? Why should it be objectionable?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this needs to be checked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You should check this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a completely different interpretation from the one you are doing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this needs to be checked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You should check this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a completely different interpretation from the one you are doing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, I, I have done almost a translation regarding the interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, write some details with it, that this is what it means. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, and the translation I have just done... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, will you further clarify in this regard? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 923 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That a fourteenth moon appeared in the last era, was the time of Mirza Sahib the last era, or is there another era coming after that? Please clarify this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Secondly, you say that "a fourteenth moon appeared. The Muslim rule in India ended, the British came and took over, the Muslim governments in the Middle East ended." You say that all this became complete; please explain how much Islam spread during the time of Mirza Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This first "Badr," the first "Badr," its expanse is also over three centuries, as the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that the best century is my first century, then the second century, then the third century, and after that, there will be kingship, and the spiritual glory of Islam will be affected. So, just as the first "Badri" appearance of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) spread over three centuries, similarly, in this era, which they have also called the last era, this appearance will spread over three centuries. We should not be misled by its initial periods. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if three hundred years is the last era, then it is fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And in this, the fundamental... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These "Mujaddids," do they come for one century? You also said that "they came in the fourteenth century." 924 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we, we don't just believe in the reformer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying that you had said that in every century... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Reformers have been coming in every century before. The last reformer of this series (is the Mahdi Ma'ud), as it is in our books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so this is theirs, their influence... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Their era is not a century. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not up to a century? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We have this doubt... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Rather, as I said, if you want, I can give you references here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I just... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Firstly, the righteous predecessors have said that the light of the Mahdi will extend until the Day of Judgment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... Meaning this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is what the predecessors said. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then there is no restriction of three (3) years. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there is a restriction of three (3) years, divinely inspired. God Almighty has given this glad tiding that in these three centuries, in comparison to those three centuries, Islam will prevail in the entire world. And I am stating this glad tiding here with full confidence. And the earth and the sky can move from their place, but it cannot happen that within three centuries the matters of Islam... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 925 That Islam should prevail over the entire world, including communist Russia, socialist China, communists, and atheistic America. According to our faith, Islam's dominance is ordained. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to your faith. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, according to our faith. Basically, to understand these kinds of quotations, this reference from the founder of the series is one reference because I, in the morning, I regret that I could not clarify: from the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) until the Day of Judgment, the real era belongs to our خاتم الانبیاءMuhammad Mustafa (peace be upon him). This is the basic reality of the Muhammadan community. But this idiom of ours, and all our books, including history and hadiths, are filled with this idiom. We say: "The era of the Rightly Guided Caliphs." We say: "The era of Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him), etc., etc." We say: "The era of the Umayyads." We write in our books: "The era of the Abbasids." Here in India, regarding the various dynasties that ruled, we Muslims write about their eras, including Timur, who was called the reformer of his time, his era. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So the real era is that of Muhammad (peace be upon him)... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Excuse me, these are the three things I have been asking you since morning, that you said: In the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), Islam was like the first crescent, and in the time of Mirza Sahib, Islam was like the full moon. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's what I'm asking. You say that this era means... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Islam continued to spread even during the time of Yazid, we have nothing to do with that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, the real era is that of Muhammad (peace be upon him). If I couldn't clarify this morning... I apologize. So the real era is from the eighth year of prophethood (peace be upon him) until the Day of Judgment, the era of Muhammad (peace be upon him). But the various spiritual children, renewers of faith, etc., who came in between, our saying is that nothing goes to them, as Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) said: "All my happiness lies in this, and the main purpose of my advent is that God Almighty's oneness and the honor of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) should be established in the world. I only know that whatever laudatory words and glorifying things Allah Almighty has stated in the previous prophecies about me, in reality, all of them go back to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), because I am his slave and one who receives light from his lamp of prophethood, and independently we have nothing." The original has remained which is continuing. And regarding the dominance of religion, about the time of Mahdi and the Promised Messiah, all the earlier ones have written this, even in Al-Tadhkirah and in our other religious books, which has come in the Holy Quran: (Arabic) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 927 So it means: That it is the time for the coming of the Messiah and the Mahdi: (Arabic) (Arabic) All our religions will become subservient to Islam. This is Tafsir Ibn Jarir, and page 72, Tafsir Surah Saff, this is Tafsir Hussaini. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, Mr. Mirza! This point is necessary! Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If you say so, then it is fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, no, if you consider it necessary, then by all means, read it. But I am saying that you should file it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I, in this, there is only this point. I can say it in one sentence That the righteous predecessors have also declared the era of the Mahdi to be the final era, and this verse of the Holy Quran: (Arabic) 928 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, it is everyone's belief that the time of the Mahdi Sahib will be the last... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But the only difference is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But the only difference is, whether... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) was the last. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, but all those times belong to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is not a dispute. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then should I have it clarified that it is clear? (To a member of his delegation) Have it clarified, because I have seen that it is not clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, have it done later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is a minor point in this. Yesterday you said whether something happened in 1949 or not, whether there was an attack or not, so I had said that it is written there in that article itself that for fourteen hundred years non-Muslims have been attacking Islam. Alright, sir, I have brought photostatic copies of references from some books after 1850, that is, the latter half of the nineteenth century. This Hazrat Allama was considered our great elder, before becoming a Christian, Imaduddin Sahib, he was from Ajmer. No, no, from a member of his delegation: from which mosque? From Jama Masjid? (To the Attorney General) He was the Khateeb of Jama Masjid Agra. And he became a Christian later. In his statement, he writes the names of more than a hundred scholars who accepted Christianity and out of enmity? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 929 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am talking about 1949. I said, is there any incident which, as far as I think, I may be wrong, Mirza Sahib, I want to clarify the position that at the time when Mirza Sahib gave this sermon, it is possible that some group of clerics, group of scholars, Jamaat-e-Islami, someone said something, in response to which they are saying this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that's not the case. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I want to clarify this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. This is not the case because... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because in my opinion, there were no Christians in Pakistan, Arya Samaj? There weren't any. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Christians are still converting now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, to attack. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am just talking in general. The Khalifa of the Ahmadiyya Community is not only related to the Pakistan community... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if there is an attack anywhere in the world, for example in America, for example in Nigeria, for example in Ghana, Gambia, etc., then he will talk about them in his sermons and tell the whole community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then it will become clear from this sermon that Christians are being targeted by them and the Christians are angry with them, right? 930 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We are still having a very fierce war with the Christians, in West Africa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, you have always been at war with the Christians, I am not talking about that. I am saying that in 1949... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There was a war in 1949 as well, it has not ended yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I, I was asking about Pakistan, you are saying it is outside. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, this sermon is related to the whole world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, alright. Do you have any other answers, Mirza Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I do. There are still many left. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here a member of the committee is telling me to finish it quickly, in one day. So this is difficult for me. Then they also have to debate on it. Then the Lahore Group comes. That's why I am repeatedly asking you if you can make it brief... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I mean if you want to finish today, then I have no objection. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not within my power. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not within my power... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nor do I want that the questions I have, that were asked of me.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that I may ask you, I am requesting you. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The ones that have already been asked... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I thought those would be finished first. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, as briefly as you can. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, God willing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so that nothing is left out in between, something like that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. (Pause) 931 This is a question based on "Nahj al-Mūsallī," the book by the Second Caliph: that you differentiate from others, meaning your separatist nature. So, the point there is: "In worldly matters, we are one with others. But in matters of religion, there is a difference." That is the difference between sects." This is the reference. I don't see anything objectionable in this. After that, there is Al Fazl, January 13, 1993. We didn't find anything objectionable in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You didn't see anything in this: "In matters of religion, you are different from the rest of the Muslims," you say. In worldly matters, are Hindus and Parsees like Muslims? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, in matters of religion, while staying within Islam, the better 72, 73 sects that exist, the kind of differences they have among themselves, we have similar differences with others while staying within Islam. 932 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 12th August, 1974 This was a question "Maktoobat-e-Ahmadiyya page 24, which was said to have a similar passage. We did not find any such reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar Mirza Sahib! You have seen all of Al-Badr from 1906 and said with great confidence that its interpretation is not found anywhere. Therefore, I would request you, when you deny it, if something is found later, then it is an unfair inference... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is here... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since we are not treating this as a witness statement from you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are holding a very important position. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, should I answer it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's why I am saying... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You, you are saying that we cannot find it on this page. We couldn't find it at such and such place. If it is not in your knowledge then it is absolutely correct, yes, we accept your word. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, when I say, I myself said at one place that it is not at this place, it is at such and such place. Yahya Bakhtiar: Neither is our expectation that whatever you say "is not there" then it is not there. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, whatever we find. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 933 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But the inference of that would be that if there was... it is presumed that whatever important things there are about Ahmadiyyat, you must be aware of them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This inference, in my opinion, is not correct, because I do not claim to be a memorizer of those millions of pages of books whose publication spans almost 90 years, and I remember every reference... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will give you a small example... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But my point is not finished yet, but when I say that it is not in my knowledge, then you should believe that it is not in my knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I believe it. But such things have happened once or twice that the members of the Assembly doubt that the references to the answers that are in your favor, you definitely bring them, give the full answer. The answers that are not in your favor, you avoid them. Excuse me, I am saying this because I asked you a question: "Did Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Sahib say this or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib said this?" You said: "Neither do I deny nor do I affirm." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then I read out the reference to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said yes: "Until I see it." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, yes I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. 934 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then I said: "Mirza Sahib, this is the reference, you said: Yes, this was the answer that was asked of us, even in the Munir Committee, we gave the same answer. You have prepared answer, but still you say: "I neither deny it, nor do I affirm it." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is on the record. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is on the record, but the inference is not on the record; and this is not true. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but this is the only inference that could be drawn from it that you had the answer prepared. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said you cannot verify and you cannot deny. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, I will clarify, it is up to you whether you accept it or not, the thing is that I said: "It is not in my knowledge." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you had the answer prepared. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I did not have the answer prepared. (Pointing towards a member of the delegation) He had the answer prepared, he said: "This is it and this is the answer to it." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was this also asked in front of the Munir Committee? “The Munir Committee..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Munir Committee book was here (pointing towards a member of the delegation) He had it. He gave me the Munir Committee book and then at that time if I said something wrong. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 935 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, you have clarified. Mirza Sahib! I am saying that if there is something, then due to its inference, it is my duty... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the wrong references that have been presented here, and there was no book at all... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, we are clarifying it with you these days. If it were not necessary, as I mentioned in the morning, as far as the Special Committee is concerned, there is no restriction for them to call anyone, talk to anyone, and then later make any law. No national assembly or legislature in the world, even in courts, is someone summoned. Neither are you an accused, nor is anyone else an accused who is being summoned... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is very kind of you. 166 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But they wanted that whatever references there are, if they rely on them, they should verify them. There should be clarification on this. That is why you expressed the desire to come. They said: Okay, it should happen, that is why we are clarifying. Many references can be wrong. I myself see, check, despite that, we still say that it is possible that it is wrong. I request you so much that if it is in your knowledge... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: At that time I said that if it is in my knowledge... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, besides your knowledge, the documents you have, some are not available anywhere else... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that is not the point. In the evening you say verify these five things... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am right in saying this. 936 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 120th Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad and I do not do it in the morning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sometimes there is no time, that is another matter. This time there was even ten days. You found many references in between. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A lot. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If, I am saying the same thing, if there is something like that in between And you say that: "No, it is not at all." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I do not even say that it is not, I say again that it is not in my knowledge. And how can I say about something which is not in my knowledge that it is in my knowledge? You advise me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, okay, okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is not in my knowledge. It is not in my knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I wanted to clarify the position, that is why. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, so this is my position here that which is not in my knowledge, I take responsibility that it is not in my knowledge, and for this I talked that day and you agreed at that time that the newspapers which are five-ten days before, five-ten days after, should also be seen. And I said this is correct and I instructed all of them to see in this way, and I missed a reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, I will say again, I do not want to interrupt because I also want the work to be done quickly, and you explain fully. This morning you said that: from 1902 to '22, from '23 to '44, in all of these places This question has never been raised in our literature. So for this purpose, you said that you have studied the whole thing. You have studied everything.... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 937 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Not a complete study, a complete consultation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can't study the point. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Don't do it? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Look, the things that I clearly state, you turn even those into points of objection... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there is no imputation, Mirza Sahib! There is no imputation on your integrity or character. I just want this clarification to be clear so that you don't have this idea in your mind. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, that's absolutely correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That the Attorney General deceived me and got me the question. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That issue of 1906, that was that in 1906 a poem was published. In 1911, a collection was published in which that poem was not there. And in 1937? In 1934, one about it was published. Then 1944, 1935... then it was published in 1944. Then that... yes, yes, all of it was published. I said this, the first day, if we have understood correctly. I am also human, don't think that I consider myself some superman, what I, we had understood the first day, was "Badr." In 1906, it was published that it was recited and Jazak Allah was said. But in Badr, there is no such thing, it is just a poem. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning it is a poem, exactly, I told you that before. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, that matter was settled that day. 938 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug., 1976 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, I said, Mr. Mirza! Our presumption is - and this presumption will be absolutely correct unless you rebut it - that Mr. Mirza must have read it, and he must have read this poem in it. If it didn't happen in his presence, then did Mr. Mirza contradict it in someone else's paper and take any action against it? This Inferences Committee... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. So, with certainty, I said about this, and still say, that there is another thing related to this matter, which I will not mention here. That would be very bitter, if you understand a little, I will tell you something separately if I have to. We have asked people, our scholars, they keep debating. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We inquired from them, searched, asked and asked, we have found those references as well - and until now, after a completely honest investigation, I have reached this conclusion. And I repeat that in our literature, from these advisors and scholars, who have been debating on this for fifty years, and there have been big objections on it before - this is not a new objection, it is an old objection. So, regarding that, they say that "We have never seen, at any place, at any time, that the Promised Messiah (peace be upon him) was made to wear it and he said Jazakallah." After 38 years, the writer of the poem says it. I gave this statement here this morning and I stand by it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right, you said this morning that he is lying. We have accepted that it was not read in his presence. But since you have mentioned it now... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 939 I was going to ask this question later: In this period of 34 years, from 1906 to Until 1944, has any leader of your group in "Al-Fadl" condemn this poem, wrote a word against it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please tell us that as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In 1934. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In 1934, it didn't happen that it was read in front of them. This controversy came up, this… Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib of the Lahore party, I think, objected. I am asking about your group, did anyone condemn the poem? In 1944, you are supporting them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, condemned in 1934, in it, in 1944, then he said that this was not my intention. And despite the fact that this was not my intention, due to people's harassment, I removed the poem from my collection, and I am saying this on oath and even then the community does not listen to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the one from 1944, you have already recited it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, there are two in 1944. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This one that is in front of us.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: August 13, 1944, and August 23. (To a member of his delegation) Where is it? Take it out. (To the Attorney General) So there are two separate references. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please file it, because this has arrived. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am telling you after verifying it. 940 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 12th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, file that too, so that along with it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, they will file it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It has been read and it has come on record. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because it clearly shows from this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because it clearly shows from this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That it was read in his presence and he... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, that, that they will do, the first one of 1932 and 1944. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning the one you have is later? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1932... Look, 1934 and this 1944, August 13, and then August 1944, this at the end, and then in 1972... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So the last one seems to be this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which one? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: August 23rd. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: August 23rd. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, August 23rd. It's not a small matter, there is no doubt in it. A person writes an article ten days earlier and it gets published in the newspaper. Ten days later he cannot write something contradictory to it. Therefore, the article that was published on the 23rd, after religiousness, we will have to read it in the light of the one from August 13th. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 941 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's alright, we will see about Mirza Sahib. This one, is this the last one or that one? We will see in it because ours- Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then it came in '62. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, ours is that once a law comes, then if a later law contradicts it, then the first one is canceled, that holds the period- Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not a legal clause...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This may not be...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ......We are talking of a fact. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He may have clarified the position finally. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, then it came in 1962, then in '63, so they will all be convinced. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was never expelled from the Jamaat (community), was he? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, he was not expelled from the Jamaat because he swore oaths that "that is not my intention which is attributed to me?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Not the intention" and read in his presence! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it was read in his presence, one person says that I only said this verse in comparison to the previous Mujaddids (religious reformers). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning in his presence? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's what he is saying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am saying this. 942 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 120th Aug, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad, in his presence... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are saying that he is a liar. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am saying that if he has compared himself with the reformers and with the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then he is a liar and a Kafir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But he is saying this under oath. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib!... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let me finish my point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no interrupt, no, no. I only had one request from you, that in his presence, he says that I read. You said that "he is a liar." If you are not calling him a liar because of this, but because of the interpretation, then that is another matter. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am saying it based on the interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this should be clarified, sir. I thought you were saying that he is a liar, that it was not read in his presence. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is also a liar in that sense, absolutely, that it was read, because we have no record of it anywhere... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So he is also a liar in that era? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And but if those reformers are from before. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, well that is another matter, you have explained it. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 943 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Its interpretation.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's another matter. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then that's correct. (Pause) This last one, in terms of the last, is from 1963. And in it, they have said the same thing again, that The advent of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) occurs at the head of every century in the guise of Muhammad Din. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, fine, file this one as well, so that all three remain together. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, we are doing all of that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And then, regarding the writings of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), which I mentioned, I will give fifty thousand, not forty in comparison, so for fifty thousand, I don't think it's appropriate to take time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I read somewhere that they wrote fifty cupboards full of praises just for the English. You must have those? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely, I have already spoken about that in relation to Jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you want to hear the references from the earlier ones again, then I will repeat them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, I will come back to that later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you ask a question, then I will repeat the answer. 944 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which one, sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The one about the English. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will ask you that question later. I will ask this question because clarification is necessary on every point. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I had a question about 'fifty cupboards', that's why I mentioned it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. The size of the cupboards is also mentioned in that question? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I don't know, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in the question, I am asking. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you will tell me, sir, you have it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, why would I tell you? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning you would know because they would be in your house. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, sir. Chandan... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, what's the need for that now, Mr. Mirza? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This claim of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) that I have everything from the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza! I am submitting that I will request the Chairman to find out whether this is according to the rules or not. That the party that has come from Lahore has filed a statement. There are some things in it for which I want clarification from you. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 945 They say that: Mirza Sahib never claimed prophethood." Now this is a very important thing. You say that "There were Ummah prophets," they say that there were not, "He did not claim it." Therefore, I will request them to give you a copy, after which all these questions can arise. Mirza Nasir Ahmad, who is their "affidavit," its clarification is the right of only those people. They are not prepared to answer, they have given some references of Mirza Sahib, they have given some sayings of Mirza Sahib, I am saying for those. They will do that. Manaat Ahmad, the clarification will be done by them only. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, those references which are there, therefore, I did not want to mention them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I said, please take a look. Then, I will ask you questions from them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what I have understood, let me explain it to you, maybe I have misunderstood. This is your wish that if our respected Chairman Sahib permits, those affidavits should be given to us, then we will prepare the answer "affidavit and give it to you." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, no, that's not my intention at all... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, that's why I am saying this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's not my intention. I said there are some references in it which, because it has been mentioned in this as well, you have also mentioned, therefore, while giving them, there are certain points, the committee needs to clarify that. $46 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What will be the benefit of this committee clarifying the difference between the Lahore Ahmadiyya community and us, regarding belief or issue? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, this is a resolution, a motion. In a resolution, both you and them have been bracketed. You have noted that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning the one that is the government's resolution. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no mention of anyone in the motion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is no mention in that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The second resolution mentions both. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They will mention themselves. Madam Deputy Speaker: We will provide that, Attorney General! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib is giving some references. If you don't want to, I won't. I just want clarification is necessary. If you don't want to, we will say no to give it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I, I am just telling, I am just clarifying that if you ask us, then I... *[At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali).] Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It will be fair to me to explain in detail and that might be 200 pages and something. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, I don't want to file a rejoinder to what they have said......... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No? What do you want then? 947 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .....I want certain points that they have raised that Mirza Sahib never claimed to be a Nabi...... They also believe in the Promised Messiah, and so do you...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But they say that he never claimed prophethood, and these Ahmadis, whether from Qadian or Rabwah, are saying something completely wrong. They have taken a stand, and in support of it, they have given some references from Mirza Sahib. I wanted to draw your attention to them, whether they are correct, incorrect, what is the interpretation, what is their text? If you don't want to, then I won't. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, when did I say that I don't want to? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you said it. You want to answer but not, nor do we say to them that you should answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is fine, meaning as far as these references are concerned, regarding prophethood, which they have attributed to Hazrat Masih Maud (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will keep our answer only to that extent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. As for the rest... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because the rest has nothing to do with it. But they have only filed an affidavit of 70 people..... 948 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug. 1974. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In 1901, Mirza Sahib did not say anything like that. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib said something, and he starts denying the references to prophethood from 1901 onwards. Annex "C" is there. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just want to draw your attention to this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That these references, after 1901, till 1907, 1908, they say that he did not claim it. So, I want to ask you something about them. So, if I ask you now, then you will also need it there. So, I think you should be given the references. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then sometime tomorrow, if possible... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, just this Annex "C" is there. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The answer to one of its sentences is this: that the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement has stated very clearly that: "If the meaning of Nabi is a Shari'ah-bearing prophet, then I am absolutely not a prophet." You have explained it very clearly, it is in our memorandum. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have explained it... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THMI QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 949 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But even then they do not even say "not an Ummat," so that is why, Here are their references, those given by Mr. Mirza, even the reference of 1907 has been given by them, so you should look at them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why I say, whatever answer you give will go into Appendix J. Until we see here what the reference is, we cannot fully understand it. So that is why I had requested the Chairman Sahib to give a copy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So what I have understood so far is that if the honorable Chairman Sahib allows it, we can get it, which are the references related to Prophethood... Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, those ones... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only up to there... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Up to there... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No one should argue beyond that, yes, have I understood correctly? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, absolutely right. Mr. Chairman: Alright. It is allowed. The copy may be given and...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please give that, Appendix J. Mr. Chairman: ....... it is up to the witness..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, okay. They have given an Affidavit. Mr. Chairman: Okay, will give it later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because they have to refer to the main point. 950 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 20, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Yes, so do you also provide the attached appendices with it or not? No, this is reference of the book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there was an appendix, I said what we will see in the main body is what the reference is... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is to clarify the clause... Mr. Chairman: These are just lists of books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Have you completed all the references, or is there anything left? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, sir. He had noted them, but when we went and looked, there were many, nearly two hundred. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am saying, there will be fifteen more. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. A question was based on an excerpt from Maktubat-e-Ahmadiyya, but we could not find any such reference in Maktubat-e-Ahmadiyya. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What question was that, sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It was Maktubat-e-Ahmadiyya, Masih-e-Mohammadi, Basij-e-Musavi, some such phrase (pointing towards a member of his delegation). He has noted it very briefly. So, if you here... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you remember that note? So that I can extract a question from it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, a comparison between Masih-e-Mohammadi and Beej-e-Nasri in such a way that some objection arose there. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 951 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'll read it out again, so... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Is this from Maktubat-e-Ahmadiyya?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I'm looking. One is from "Al-Fadl." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, Maktubat-e-Ahmadiyya is not a magazine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There are two, right? I'm checking to see if you've received the other one as well. (Pause) Mr. Mirza Sahib, this was "Al-Fadl, Volume No. 5, Issue 29-70." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In it, he says: "Didn't Sheikh Nasari separate his followers from the Jews...?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is different from that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, do you have this one? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the second one. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We wrote that later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. The other one is "Malaika." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's the one about the angels of Allah, I've already answered it. We've noted it here. So, did you get the answer to that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, you've already answered that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. 952 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 12th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I don't know which one that was. If you could tell me a little bit about its subject... no, that's already been done. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In "Maktubat-e-Ahmadiyya." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What was the sentence? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sir, he himself doesn't remember it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, ten days have passed in between. Yes, that's why. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I also, I've noted it somewhere. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then you can see it, it's in between. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. What was your reference? We gave you this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Maktubat-e-Ahmadiyya," page 24. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here it is, sir. (Pause) What was the conduct of Christ, peace be upon him? That he would eat and drink, neither a worshiper nor an ascetic, nor a truth-seeker, arrogant, self-centered, claiming divinity. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This has already been done. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It's on pages 2 and 3 of "Maktubat-e-Ahmadiyya," isn't it? And what else is there besides that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This has already been done. (Pause) Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney-General, can we get the reply (references) filed to Hawalajat? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir? 953 Mr. Chairman: Can we get the reply to Hawalajat filed with the evidence? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: With ……………. ? Mr. Chairman: With the evidence? These may not be read in order to save time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I requested Mirza Sahib that wherever he feels it necessary. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: he will explain it briefly and then file it that otherwise he will read it out… Mr. Chairman: If, if the reply ...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: read the Hawalajat. Mr. Chairman: of the Hawalajat is prepared in a written form, it can be filed. It may be read as part of the evidence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, when you were out of the Hall for a little while........ Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1 requested Mirza Sahib ………….. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: that the Committee is setting very anxious...... * Mr. Chairman: It will:..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: therefore, he said he will file the 954 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 20th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: Yes, it will save a lot of time of the House and of the witness also. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I know, his valuable time. Mr. Chairman: Then, if it can be agreed between the witness and the Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I requested Mirza Sahib wherever he considered necessary, he will speak in detail; otherwise he will just briefly say something about it and file it. Mr. Chairman: And then we can cross over to the exami- nation, rest of the examination. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I know the difficulty, but I want Mirza Sahib...... Mr. Chairman: Yes, it is up to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ………... if he thinks necessary,...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman: Yes. then he will give in detail, otherwise he will briefly mention it. Mr. Chairman: Yes. I may ask the witness, if he likes, he can file all the, all the written...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but the thing is, Sir, the Committee members...... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: will not be able to read every document because the debate time is short. That is why I said that Mirza Sahib should briefly explain. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes sir. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then submit it. 955 Mr. Chairman: But if all the… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Wherever he thinks, you know, that Mr. Chairman: But, Mr. Attorney-General, if all the time is consumed in reading the references then… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please? Mr. Chairman: If all the time is consumed in reading the references then… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, the thing is that we ask certain questions… Mr. Chairman: Then, then… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And to those questions, after verification, he is giving a reply. Most of them are over now. I think, one or two are left. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, no, certainly. Mr. Chairman: Because, for all references, there were two questions: one, that the particular statement, which was made, is admitted? If not admitted, then no second question. If made, then explanation by the witness that it was given in such and such context. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I pointed out to Mirza Sahib before that if I am charged with an offence and I am taken to court and the Magistrate asked me, I say: "Others have also committed the same offence." Now, if Mirza Sahib goes on giving Sir Syed's references and other references because Mirza Sahib said the same… 956 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug, 1974 thing_ _I mean that may be relevant from his point of _but it will not justify this, nor will it explain it, because Mirza Sahib, according to therma, held a very different position. view Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is correct regarding the criminal offense... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, not that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But, I think, I have not committed .any criminal offence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, no insinuation. I have just given an example and I brought myself in. I don't want to insinuate and hurt your feelings. I was giving an example that, for anything, you cannot say that "because others have done". That will not justify, that will not explain it. Mr. Chairman: That is a question of argument. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say I have pointed out onething........ Mr. Chairman: we are talking of the procedure. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib says, no that was the background, this was the history, from his point of view...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is an environment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, alright sir, I said. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: An environment of the era, fifty... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...if we talk about a century and a quarter ago... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, alright. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then without the environment of this century... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 957 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said you considered its biographical background necessary. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So I said, okay, read it. Mr. Chairman: No, my only idea was to save the time of the House ...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know. Mr. Chairman: ...we do not want to tax the patience of the honourable members, the witness and everybody concerned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am aware of the valuable time of the House valuable time of Mirza Sahib, and I am also getting tired, but this is a very important thing....... Mr. Chairman: If, if, if we can minimise…………... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want every clarification so that the committee should come to a very fair decision. Mr. Chairman: My only, my only point was that if the written reply to Hawalajat can be filed, it will be read in evidence, and the copies will be cyclostyled and given to all the members. That is my point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that we doing, Sir. But if, alongwith the reply, he can give a brief clarification, I think that is better, because this is not evidence, and it is not interrogatory. Mr. Chairman: No. But if the witness says that this reply. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if it is a written reply ……….. Mr. Chairman: Yes, it is a written reply. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: it will be pointed out. That it will be explained. 958 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug, 1974 Mr. Chairman: That will be a part of evidence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The time was consumed mostly because of other Hawalajat __ what other Muslims have said about...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Chairman: Yes. If now we are able to cut it short......t may be beneficial to all of us_ the honourable members, to the witness to everyone of us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I, I, I----- Dr. Mohammad Shafi: Sir, may 1 say a word? Mr. Chairman: No. After this. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Next, read the answer. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This was a political question: We have been supporting undivided India. Is it clear to you or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I do not remember. I had to ask three more questions on this later, I have written them down. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maybe I asked another one of them, but four questions came to me written. This was the political side. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 959 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...we don't attach much importance with it. Just because you opposed Pakistan, that is no reason to condemn anybody. Many people... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What?... But we did not Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I say ...that was not the reason. The reason was supposing you I wanted to point out ...that you treated yourself different from the rest of Muslims separate. In that context... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...I asked the question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, should I give its answer then? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, let me ask you the other questions... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is a detailed answer, it may take half an hour or forty-five minutes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so that others will also be in front of you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then you give it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because there are two or three references in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It will come with them. 960 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You mean to include them with him, to include them too? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You mean to include them too, so that the small pieces don't waste time separately. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then a detailed answer will have to be given for that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Please ask. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it over now? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No... Mr. Chairman: You put the Question, you start the question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there is one more answer left, which were asked earlier. Mr. Chairman: And, for my enquiry, the member of the delegation can consult each other and can adopt whatever course they choose. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This was a photocopy of the magazine "Darood Sharif" that was given here. I think it was a photocopy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Two photocopies. One was this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, one was this, there was another one, there was that one. Both of them are like this that the, this that is printed is also wrong. Meaning that page doesn't even exist, and the article is also, we have many editions of this magazine, and we have seen them all, and in them there is no mention of what was read out here that day. The photocopy, thisCROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 96 was read aloud. It stated that this is an internal testimony that is against it. It says that there is no proof of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) praying behind Hafiz Muhammad Sahib. They have said that he did pray, but no proof is found in the published literature of the Ahmadiyya movement. Hafiz Muhammad Sahib is an unknown figure who is not even mentioned in the Ahmadiyya movement. The gentlemen behind whom Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) prayed and who are mentioned in the literature of the movement are as follows: Hazrat Maulvi Nooruddin Sahib… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This question was not asked of you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This question was not asked. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this was asked. The thing that was read, the whole thing, meaning regarding the Darood, but… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: … This was also mentioned in the entire passage. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, only the part about Darood... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, but it was mentioned that Hafiz Muhammad Sahib narrated this. Now the Jamaat does not even know this name. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, so you do not have any such Darood at all, not even published? The book that is published, will you show it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if they show it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, we will bring it. 962 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I think it will be hard to find because there isn't one. Mr. Chairman: When, I think, the denial comes, there is no need of explanation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, if...if... Mr. Chairman: When, when a fact is denied that it never existed......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I... Mr. Chairman: There is no need of explanation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I deny that in all the editions we have, there is any mention of it, this Durood number one. I deny that I... I was raised in the cradle of Ahmadiyyat. In my entire life, I have never even once heard the words of this Durood, not of the Durood. I am denying this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you said before you don't believe of it, that has come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Then let's leave it. Mr. Chairman: This is sufficient. Now we go on to the next. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, Risala Khatam-e-Nabuwat by Maududi Sahib. And you asked to reconsider its response, let's do that... (To a member of his delegation) Is it? Okay, that too... this is also answered but not being written here. Okay, this is it. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 963 "Ahmad, a Messenger of Attorney General: "Forming a separate group." later days"... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What was on that page? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That was also presented here, a photocopy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Wasn't that your address? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I'll tell you. (To a member of his delegation) What is the name of this book? (To the Attorney General) A book has been published under the name "Seerat-ul-Masih-e-Maud"... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has it been translated into Urdu? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The words in Urdu are not the same as in the English translation that Muhammad Hashim Sahib Bengali did, Abul Hashim Sahib. Abul Hashim Sahib Bengali, this is not the 1924 book, this is the 1916, 1917 book. This is not the book from that time, which was in your mind... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's different. "Ahmadiyyat or the True Islam" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is the 1924 one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That lecture was different. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that lecture is different. This is not it. The Urdu words in it... (Pause) Look, how different it is. The Urdu words in this are self-explanatory. It says: "A census was to be conducted in 1901. Therefore, in the late 1901, you published an announcement in the name of your community that the people of our community should write "Ahmadi Muslim" or "Muhammadan Muslim" in the census papers. As if in that year, you named your community "Ahmadi". 964 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug, 1974 distinguished from other Muslims by designating them by a specific name. They created a distinction among them that write Ahmadis as Muslims. Now, if there is a wrong translation of this somewhere... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No translation, sir, it also means "as Separate entity." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Distinguished." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Distinguished" means, whether above or below... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Zinda Shad, Nai Nai, Oh Ho! O Ho... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It has become different, then, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A distinction was created, just like these Barelvis and Ahl-e-Hadith... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And these are... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Another sect was formed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Another sect among Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the rest of the census, we have seen that Shia Sunni has been coming, but Barelvi Marelvi has not come yet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maybe it will come in the next Census. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I cannot say that. Previously, it used to be in a general way. So many Shias, so many Sunnis. The rest who are... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 965 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, in the end, Shia and Sunni are also... Otherwise, no objection. I, otherwise, in my... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm talking about... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That in the census, they write separately in their report. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That these are the number of Shia Muslims... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They used to write in their report that Shias are so many and Sunnis are so many. But it's that Shias never had themselves written as separate, that I am Shia, nor were any instructions given, neither by Sunnis, nor by Barelvis, nor by Deobandis. I want clarification on this issue. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if they didn't write it, then how did it come in the census results that there are so many Shias? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they are giving it in their report. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Really? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are giving it in the report that "The Shias are estimated to be so many out of them." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the census report? 966 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, in the old one. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I mean, after all, they must have written "Shia," so it must have appeared in the census report. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Estimated. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They were not written separately like that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I wonder. How do you, how can you estimate without there being any statistics to base your estimation? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have estimated, Sir, that the Ahmadis are four million; they can estimate. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, in that sense! There must have been some Shia Mujahids there! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ..... I don't remember - I may be wrong My impression is that for the first time... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He writes in 1921 that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anyway, that means that Ahmadis, Muslims, and other sects are being distinguished to elevate them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That English book, that is your... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This has not been published by our community; an individual has done it. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 967 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From Qadian. You can see. Show me the book. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, take a look. And we didn't understand why the photocopy was presented here when the book was available? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, they didn't have the book at that time. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They didn't have it. You can see. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, it has the title... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. "...outside..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...what you said... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no such title here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Show me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This, this title that is in the translation, in the original Urdu, it is not there at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not in Urdu? It is in English, though. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is in English. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The person has put quite a few titles. I mean, look at this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. It was published by your... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You will understand, these are... 968 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It has been officially polished by Qadian. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no heading in it. The translator has put the heading himself, Abul Hashim Bengali. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He must have the desire to put the heading, a hobby. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is from the 1924 edition, I think. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It has been the same everywhere in Urdu, hasn't it? There are no headings. The headings have been put by the translator. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! This is: "Ahmad, Messenger of the Later Days" Part I, by Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mahmud Ahmad, reproduced from the "Review of Religions" volume......... Н It says here: "Published by Sadar Anjuman-i-Ahmadiyya, Qadian, Punjal, India." I don't consider it to be a more authoritative document. They never said this is wrong. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am saying that the headings that are put in it are not in the original book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They, if they are wrong, then they should have corrected them, that this is not from us Muslims. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 969 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before this, you reminded me… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now they will. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Ahmadis to form… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I understand that, I have seen that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes: "Separate Community from the outside Muslims." I thought those two circles you have made, are "outside Muslims." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, yes, but how can the translation be different from the original book in front of us? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that's right, what you are saying is right, that this book is in this Allah-like way, you say. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That it has been published, and under your authority. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is correct. But the translator is Abul Hashim Sahib Bengali, and there is no title in the original book, there is no title at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is the translation of the rest of the content correct? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Distinguishing? Mr. Chairman: When the original is available, translation has no value. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, even the translation is published under their authority. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Mr. Chairman: Yes. (Pause) [20th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there any other reference left or not? (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is regarding undivided India. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I already mentioned that, I will ask you about it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And one is this forming a separate group, this is a tendency that someone separates, from the main body of Millat-i-Islamia. I want to answer this in detail because this is very serious. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, this is important because I have many questions. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And I have made it clear to you from the beginning that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have taken a bird's eye view of my entire history. And it will take an hour and a half. So if it is possible at this time then... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's fine, Mirza Sahib! At this time, whatever is there on it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But I will try that instead of reading all of it, I will read one reference under each heading, for example. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You can read one reference, and then explain it yourself from that.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But this separatism. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 971 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have a few more questions to ask you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Yahya Bakhtiar: It would be better if you come to that after this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay, as you wish. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because there were a few references. Just now, you said that you don't have the answers to them... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which you haven't received yet. So we will have to verify them again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there anything else left with you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there isn't anything else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! There were one or two more references... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, please tell me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Either you have already answered them, but I haven't noted it down. According to my notes, you haven't answered them. Because today... (Pause) I had you write down several references from it. You answered some of them that day. Then you gave answers today. 972 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug, 1974 You gave the answer today about the one who was from Hell. He is from Hell, along with a reference: "Whoever opposes me is a Christian, Jew, polytheist, and from Hell." From "Nuzool-e-Masih," page -. Tazkira" Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, he had given its reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was the answer given? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, the answer has been given. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. And then there was one that: "All Muslims have accepted me and confirmed my invitation, but the children of prostitutes and adulterers did not accept me." You said that it has a different meaning, that in Arabic, prostitutes and adulterers... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you will explain it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, one thing is that there is a reference of this kind... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not in that sense; it is not about those who will not believe in the future. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! The first thing is, is this a reference or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not in these words. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If it is in some words, first let us hear that, then after that... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 973 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The position will become clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Regarding what you were saying about a separate group, were you referring to the reference about the Messiah of Nazareth? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I was referring to when you said that this is an impression in the world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there was a reference (pointing to one of their members) Will you tell me? (To Mirza Nasir Ahmad) I said it is coming in the same context: "Didn't the Messiah of Nazareth do the same to his followers as Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood did..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it is in the same... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You will recite it all together in the same context? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, together. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. I thought it was separate, but it is not. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, no. (Pause) Here is the reference that I will read out, which I confirm: (Arabic) $74 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug. 1974 This is in "Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam" 1893. In this, you have referenced many books and after that, you have stated that: "Allah Almighty has given me the ability to describe the beauty of Islam in these books, and every Muslim will look at these books with love and affection and benefit from them will pick and accept me and confirm my invitation, except for those people who are far from guidance, whose hearts Allah Almighty has sealed, they will not accept.” You have described this subject in another place like this: "Allah Almighty has sent me to make the religion of Islam dominant in the world and I have It has been foretold that all mankind will accept Islam and only those will remain who will be in the condition of sweepers and tanners. And it has come in some other places as well. So, to say about the references of an author, it is necessary to keep in front of you all the subjects that he has described. This Arabic term, is used for both present and future, for both present and future. And secondly, the references are telling us that it is for the future here, not for the present. It does not mean that they accept. When it was written, millions of people had accepted it after that. It means that "the whole world will accept Islam". And when I said that millions have accepted, I meant the conversion of non-Muslims to Islam. Our preaching is evident in Africa, Europe, and America at that time, after that millions accepted Islam. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 975 Mountains and idolaters burned their idols. We keep getting pictures, from time to time, of those who burn idols. So here is the subject that Allah Almighty in this end-time has destined that all mankind will accept Islam and only those ten will remain whose condition will be like that of sweepers and tanners. And "Dhuriyat-ul-Baghaya" are such misguided people. He has explained it as: Such misguided people whose hearts Allah Almighty has sealed. Only they will remain behind in accepting Islam, the rest will all accept it. It's a matter of the future, why is it being applied to the present? (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Baghaya" means "misguided," you said? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes Sir, Hazrat Masih Maud himself has given its meaning as rebellious. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here this.... (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These meanings of "Al-Hakam" that you have started seeing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have been told that wherever "Baghaya" has come, it means "foul-mouthed woman, adulteress, prostitute, harlot, prostitutes." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In whose meaning? In the meaning of "Dhurriyatul-Baghaya?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Of "Baghaya," yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where are you reading this from? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In Hujjat-un-Noor. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In Hujjat-un-Noor. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "In Hujjat-un-Noor." And here the translation is: "Rebellious man." And in the dictionary also, it means rebellious man. And I had submitted that day that "Baghia". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying it on the same word. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is regarding the future. A time will come when all the people of the world will accept the Sharia of Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and a few will remain whose condition will be like that of sweepers. (Pause) And "Baghia" is the plural of "Baghi" and also the plural of "Baghia." And "Khair" means "Wahid." "Yad" means "vanguard of the army." And why are these meanings not taken? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Have you printed this translation of "Baghia" anywhere that you have stated? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is printed in the dictionary.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the Arabic dictionary. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The one you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, this rebellious one is printed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, this, yes, you... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 977 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is the print, get it from a member of your delegation (Is there anywhere else?) (To the Attorney General) It was in two or three places, Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, it's all about immoral women. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, exactly. I am telling you about the print. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so in this way, that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, exactly. Al-Hakam, Volume Eleven, Number Seven. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Mirza Sahib, what you said is: "The entire Muslim world will accept..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: accepted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not the meaning? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, "The entire world will accept." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are you talking about the future? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we are talking about the future. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The entire world... there are very clear references to Urdu in other places as well, and others too. Keeping all of them in mind, then the translation of this Arabic can be done. And the form that is here in Arabic justifies the meaning of the future, and in our opinion, this is its meaning... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So give us ours then. 978 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That the whole world will accept, except for a few people whose condition will be like that of sweepers and menials, and here it will be like that of rebels. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Give "Aina-e-Kamalat." I am saying, "Aina-e-Kamalat" is not it. (Pause) Mirza Sahib, did you read this from a page? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Which one? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This "Jora Naslin" is from which page did you read it from? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This Arabic of "Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam", is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, that, that is number... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this it, Sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This is "Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam" "Mahmula" Ruhani Khazain... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Volume 5, pages 537-538, published in 1972. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, this is it. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It is very clear in this: (Arabic) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! There was a reference along with it... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Also. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 979 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Propagation of the Message "Whoever does not follow you, does not enter into your allegiance, and remains your opponent, is an opponent of God and the Messenger, and is destined for Hell." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Its answer has already been given. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you wish, I can give it again. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I haven't marked it in my notes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There was also this: (Pause) "Having marital relations with Muslims is forbidden and unlawful." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anwar Khilafat page… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Haven't I answered this before? I have answered it. If you wish, I can send it to you now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have already answered it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. (To a member of his delegation) Right? (To the Attorney General) I remember. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, sir, well, if my list could be completed, I have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Actually, you have bombarded me with so many questions, one after the other, that I am asking for forgiveness. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (20th Aug 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I, Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, please listen to me. So, that is why it is possible that it was not present in my mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am only talking about this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The committee members have sent questions. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Because I cannot find them, so I am getting them confirmed, lest my memory fails and an objection is raised against me tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, God willing, that will not happen. Such a thing that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I want to assure myself. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am feeling tired. Mr. Chairman: Can the witness come after 10 minutes of recess, or 15 minutes of recess? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My request was that the committee members are saying to finish it quickly as it is getting late. Mr. Chairman: We want to. This is .. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We meet tomorrow at 10.00 a.m.? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tomorrow, there is a meeting, the Speaker is going to the Cabinet. Mr. Chairman: If, if we......either we......if ..... no, we have to give allowance to the witness...... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 981 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because he is tired, we can't ....... Mr. Chairman: No, no question of continuing. though..... there are two proposals: Either we sit up to 10.00 or we give recess, after 15 minutes to start, and sit up to 10.30 or, if...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If, if Mirza Sahib...... Mr. Chairman: ......if the witness feels that he ..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let's take a short break. Mr. Chairman: ...... he will be unable to, then we can break. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, nothing much was accomplished today, Mirza Sahib! Today, only answers to old references have been received. Mr. Chairman: It is up to the witness, because witness has the...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What you are saying is correct. But I am very sorry that we waited for two hours and they did not come here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Today, the members were supposed to arrive by plane in the morning... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...and it was delayed. Then in the evening it was due to the quorum. Otherwise... Mr. Chairman: It was ....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The meaning is that we remained on duty. Mr. Chairman: No, no- Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no one, obey..... 482 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 12th Aug. 1974 Mr. Chairman: Nobody, nobody is to be blamed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, it doesn't happen even for a minute that the quorum is not complete. Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney-General …………….. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, he is fine. Mr. Chairman: It was the weather in the morning in Pindi which is responsible. weather was responsible this morning and Mr. Chairman: It is up to the witness. If the witness likes, he can sit up...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, tomorrow ... Mr. Chairman: he can, he can be asked; we can, we can adjourn just now, if he likes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is tired, Sir, so……………… Mr. Chairman; Then tomorrow...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tomorrow evening. Mr. Chairman: at 5.30. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 5.30. Mr. Chairman: At 5.30, because then we will be having from 5.30 to 7.00, break for Maghrib from 7.30 to 8.30, and from 9.00 to 10.00, because morning. these are three shifts because we have been doing four two in the morning, two in the evening. Tomorrow, we will be having three. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So what was decided then? Mr. Chairman: The witness is allowed to ...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the evening, sir, at half past five. Mr. Chairman: Half past five, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Tomorrow evening at half past five? Mr. Chairman: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay then. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After a break for prayers, they will do it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is allowed to withdraw. The honourable members may keep sitting. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want as many of these questions answered as possible, otherwise Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We wouldn't trouble you. Mr. Chairman: And the witness can consider that proposal also about the Hawalajat_ discuss it the members of the Delegation can _that it will be read in evidence. That is up to the witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's fine, I said whatever is necessary, that Mr. Chairman: Okay, whatever is necessary, read it, and whatever is not necessary, convince them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: File the rest. 984 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [20th Aug. 1974 Mr. Chairman: The honorable members may keep sitting, (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Assalam-o-Alaikum. Mr. Chairman: Waalaikum Assalam. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: The Reporters can leave also; they are free. No lape. Tomorrow, at 5.30 p.m. Thank you very much. [The Special Committee of the whole house subsequently adjourned to meet at half past five of the clock, in the afternoon, on Wednesday, the 21st August, 1974.] The Special Committee adjourned to meet at half past five of the clock in the afternoon, on Friday, the 21st August, 1974.] PCPPI-1095(10) NA.-13-3-2011-4.50. No. 8 C THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Wednesday, August 21, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) 1. CONTENTS Letters from Qadiani Groups Regarding Supply of Tapes and Advance Notices of Pages Question in Cross-examination 2. Procedure Regarding Verification of Quotations 3. Suggestion Regarding Meeting of the Steering Committee 4. Secrecy of the Proceedings 5. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation 6. Time for Cross-examination 7. 8. Attendance in the Committee Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation (Continued) 988-990 990-992 992 992-993 993-1028 1028 1028-1030 1030-1100 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD. No. 8 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Wednesday, August 21, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1–21) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE Wednesday, August 21, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in Camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at half past five o'clock in the afternoon, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN (:1) 987 Translation: LETTERS FROM QADIANI GROUPS RE: SUPPLY OF TAPES AND ADVANCE NOTICES OF QUESTIONS IN CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Chairman: Before they are called, two letters have been addressed to the secretary, National Assembly, by Mirza Mansur Ahmed, Nazir-e-Aala, Sadar Anjumane, Ahmadiyya Pakistan, Rabwah. One for the supply of the tape, and the other, I will read it. Of the tape, that. I have refused in any Chamber. At present it cannot be granted to any person because our proceedings are confidential. The House agrees with me? Members: Yes. Mr. Mohammad Haneef Khan: Sir, you used the words 'at present'. I think, not at present, the tape of the Assembly commit be granted at any time. Mr. Chairman: At any time. The order is that this time this request commit be Conceded. Prof Ghafoor Ahmad: Even proceedings should not be given. Not only the tapes. Mr. Chairman: The proceedings shall be given only to the honourable members, which are ready, which yesterday. I said that they can collect the proceedings. The Second letter, the operation portion. I need in the House: "in any opinion, to facilitate the matter and the assist the Committee in reaching a just conclusion, which the Committee so earnestly desires and also in order to be fair to the parties concerned, it would be advisable if the written questions and given in advance and their answers submitted in writing. As a result of our experience in the first session in the Committee, we sincerely believe that had this procedure been adopted earlier, it would have NOTICES OF QUESTIONS IN CROSS-EXAMINATION saved a lot of valuable time of the House. After all, it is not a criminal proceeding or an ordinary legal cross examination of an accused, an individual, or a party. The Committee is studying a very serious matter involving religious beliefs of millions of people, if in a grave moment and only in the history of Pakistan but also in the history of Islam. I would, therefore, be grateful if you please convey our request to the Steering Committee. I am sure, the Committee, realizing the gravity and the seriousness of the issue, would grant our request." I would love to hear the Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar : (Attorney-General of Pakistan). Sir, the Delegation has come to the Assembly at their own request. They wanted to be heard. If they wanted to be heard, then they will be present here and we will ask questions to elaborate certain points. Now, it is impossible to send questions in advance because, whenever we ask a question there are five, six, ten supplementaries for clarification. That would mean that whatever supplementary question I ask, that has to be given to them in writing. You will give time after that and they will submit a written reply. If the written replies were to be taken from them, then they would not have come at all. We could have sent a number of questions as interrogatories, which they could have answered from Rabwah. But the point was that they should clarify the position. And it is not possible, it is physically impossible. As far as the hearing is concerned, Sir, I am the first person to give them as much time as they wanted. Now we are at the fag end of this examination. Whenever they wanted more time to answer any question, they have been given the time by you and by the house. There was a break of days. About fifteen questions they prepared, and answered those yesterday. So, I think, this is not a reasonable question nor is it practicable. Mr. Chairman: Now, I think, most of the questions are over and the supplementaries are going on. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only on three subjects. And, about every subject, I tell them in advance. That about Akhand Bharat, I am going to ask a few questions; about 'their Separatism' I am I am going to ask a few questions; About 'Jehad' I am going to ask a few questions; about 'Khatme-Nabooat' I am going to ask a few questions and they know the subject. / Mr. Chairman; So, is the House of the opinion that request also cannot be granted? Members: Yes. Mr. Chairman: Unanimous. Anything else? They may be called. Yes, they may be called. Just a minute. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Mr. Speaker! I want to submit one thing... Mr. Chairman: Have them sit outside upstairs. Yes. Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari! PROCEDURE RE: VERIFICATION OF QUOTATIONS Mr. Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Many honorable members are repeatedly saying that it is getting late. It is certainly getting late. But once we have started this work, it would be very wrong to leave it at such a stage and would be detrimental to our purpose. One suggestion I have in mind is that we read out four, five, or six quotations on a topic at once and ask them whether they admit to it or not. Don't take any explanation etc. at that time. If they do not admit it, then we will try to produce the original. In any case, our effort... PROCEDURE RE: VERIFICATION OF QUOTATIONS 991 Mr. Chairman: If you produce the original, it becomes very easy. When you give a reference, they say we will see, check, verify. Because this is good. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay. But the things we have here, first we should ask them if they admit it or not? Meaning, for example, on the subject of "Jihad," if we read seven or eight articles to them and tell them, "This is it, have they written it or not?" And if they admit it, then they can take time for explanation and supplementary information. Mr. Chairman: Yesterday, I observed in the House....... Maulana Sahib! Please listen for a moment. I also made this observation, not on this. I consulted the Attorney-General. Now almost the references are over. Now, if they file a reply to the references, that will be read as part of the evidence. If there is an explanation, give a brief one. And now very few references have remained. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Mr. Speaker, there are still many topics like that. As the Attorney General has said, there is something to ask about Akhand Bharat, regarding Muslim countries, what their attitude is, what is about Jihad, and everything in which they are different from Muslims. Mr. Chairman: No, you keep asking questions, we will try to finish it as quickly as possible. Definitely, now the object is-we are meeting in Okay! SUGGESTION REGARDING MEETING OF THE STEERING COMMITTEE Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: Sir! My suggestion is that we should call a meeting of the Steering Committee now so that we can finalize the program. Mr. Chairman: That is very necessary. I think, let the Law Minister come. He promised to come at 7:30 after Maghrib prayers. Then we can fix a time. I want the whole day to be utilized tomorrow, morning and evening. When we finish tomorrow evening at nine or nine thirty, then the Steering Committee should go into session and review the progress and give a decision. And........ (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Yes, we will sit. Professor Sahib! When the Law Minister arrives, you sit with him, wait a minute. Dr. Muhammad Shafi: and decide the matter and tell me. They may be called. SECRECY OF THE PROCEEDINGS Are these proceedings that I..., are these secret? Yes? Dr. Muhammad Shafi, these... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 993 Mr. Chairman: Yes, it is secret. Dr. Muhammad Shafi: That door remains open, and someone keeps listening there, constantly. Mr. Chairman: Secretary, check and tell me who is the person. Messenger clerks are there. He is either... this is the wrong way. Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Wanted to say something. Yes, they may be called. Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Keep an eye on them, see how many they are sending. Mr. Chairman: Malik Sahib is late today, very late. Call them, call them. Tell the Sergeant-at-Arms that there should not be anyone here, there, at these doors, at any of these doors. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Do you want to say something? Is there anything left unsaid? Mirza Nasir Ahmad (Witness Head of Jamaat Ahmadiyya Rabwah): One thing, you mentioned yesterday, which authority was it...? It was something to check regarding "Al Fazl"... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad is from 1916. If I am troubling you, it is only because I do not fully remember. What I remember is, in 1916, did the second Khalifa's interpretation or explanation of the "Talba Ilhamia" passage differ from or align with what I stated yesterday? Because there is no statement, sermon, or writing from the second Khalifa in this newspaper. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it in any book? I'll bring it to you later, then. Is there anything else? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Besides that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it not in any other paper, in any other date? Do you not have any such idea? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: With great respect, I want to say that yesterday, the accusation that was made against me... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I have made no accusation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, listen to me. Therefore, regarding the references needed for the questions, honorable members, search for them yourselves if you wish, and ask us only, "Here is the reference, what does it mean?" Do not put upon us, from our side, that we search for references for you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's fine. I will do just that now. If you say that you are not aware of this reference, that is sufficient. MIRZA NASIR AHMED: I will only talk about the reference you mention, that it is in such and such book, regarding that date. I will not even talk about a day before or a day after. You… MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: No, that's right. Mirza Sahib! The thing is, these references, some in newspapers, some in magazines, some in books, are reproduced with typographical errors, and a member picks it up from somewhere and asks me a question, so I ask you. Sometimes there is a difference of ten days in the date. "21" becomes "31". Sometimes there is a difference of a year, "51" becomes like that... MIRZA NASIR AHMED: Then those who are asking should do some hard work. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: No sir, then "Al-Fadl" is not with them, it's with you, the whole file, and the other members don't have such files at all. And most of the references are from "Al-Fadl." So we have difficulty. Otherwise, it's okay, if you can't find it... MIRZA NASIR AHMED: No, I have only submitted that I myself, with utmost honesty, had admitted that we would search. But in return, I was given a very inappropriate objection... MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Mirza Sahib! Mirza Sahib!... MIRZA NASIR AHMED: So, that is why I am submitting that you should bear your burden, and we will try to bear ours. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Murda! I had submitted that I do not doubt your honesty. I think you heard those words. I said that I do not doubt your honesty, Mr. Mirza. The question was that I asked a question and you said that you neither support nor deny it. After that, when I showed the reference, you said, "Yes, this was asked of us in the Munir Committee as well, we gave the same answer," so I submitted that "You knew this answer, you should have known the reference as well," then why were you avoiding it? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I had told that my companion had said... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, that clarity is achieved, so that matter is settled that the matter came on record in this way, you have clarified that they knew, you did not know. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This is a long answer. That is also a request. This when we were here after six days, the adjournment was happening, the process was happening, then that day in the evening you had said that I will ask some questions about the tendency... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, separatist... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In connection to separatist, I want to take a bird's-eye view of the past 90 years. And that will be a very strong background, a context. So it will be just milestones where there are important points, so after that half a paragraph, taking a sentence, a question arises, it will be easier to understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You are right. One difficulty is that if you read out the written reply and you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will not read out the written, I will not read out the written reply, you have forbidden me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said that is not the way. If there is any reference like that, then fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will only read the reference, the rest I will say verbally. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The thing is that I had drawn your attention to some references, on the basis of which I was saying that there is an impression that you have separatism or separatist tendency. And you said that you would respond to it. So I said that I would ask a couple of more things from you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because if it comes to the same point now, then before you answer, you said why don't you offer prayers. It has its own reasons, so that it remains in your mind that why we say that the Muslims...you are separatist. That has already happened, so if you leave it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is not... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will not repeat. Then you said why Ahmadi... A girl is not married to a Muslim boy. You said this is a policy, not a belief, because we think they are not happy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I didn't hear this sentence completely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will repeat it again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning, an Ahmadi girl... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Marriage to which Muslim or non-Ahmadi... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, an Ahmadi girl is not married to someone belonging to another sect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We don't allow it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It's a matter of words. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You gave this as the reason. I then said, "It is your belief, have you passed any order on it? Whether it is called a belief, a rule" So you said no, our experience is such that they are not happy because of it. And then you further stated that you do not expect any Muslim to fulfill the rights of his wife according to Sharia, as an Ahmadi can. I am repeating it to you so that there is no misunderstanding, so there is no need for further discussion on this, except that I will show a reference according to which, in my opinion, this is not a policy, this you are not doing it because your experience is reconciliation, but it is your order, a kind of belief, a rule, I will draw attention to it, and this has been for a long time This is also on that. So that when dealing with it, say something about this aspect. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will then answer something that has been around for even longer, okay? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So this is what I am saying... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 999 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, the rest I have told you in the sense in which you tried to separate yourself.... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, not at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, those things.... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, meaning it came, the answer came. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The answer has come, I want to draw your attention to this point, what was the reason for your separatist tendency, there are so many references that they are another nation, you are another nation, why do you want to interfere in it? I will not repeat it again. which is already on record. You can answer in detail again if you wish. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I already gave the answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, okay, no need to go into that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Mr. Mirza! Before I ask you some more questions on this issue, there was a small point. Yesterday you filed "Al Fazl" 1946, a paper of November 13 here. If I understood correctly, then you said. Because the question was whether Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad Sahib had sent a representative to a very senior British officer and told them that like the Parsis and like the Christians we should also be given separate representation, in response to this you said yesterday that this newspaper exists, the sermon exists. In it, you said that in those days...." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I clarified later that "the journey to Delhi where it is written.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I'm saying. You said that in those days, there was talk of partition, which district would come, which district would go. In Gurdaspur, 51.9% of the population was Muslim, in which a large number were Ahmadis, and the question was whether it would go here or there, what role would the Ahmadis play. In these circumstances, this sermon was given. Then there was a trip to Delhi and that demand was presented with the support of the Muslim League. Firstly, Mirza Sahib! There is no mention of the partition, the district, or the population being 51.9% or 49%, which would indicate that this was the background. I'm telling you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the Interim Government, that is being mentioned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I thought you were saying that this thing is present in this article. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, not the article, sir, I am telling the background. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right, it would be the background. My own opinion is that it was not the background, it was later, in November '46, the Muslim League had just joined the Interim Government, but the government's intention... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: November, not '49... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, '46. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But the government's intention at that time was not clear. There is no doubt that Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Sahib tried at that time that if the British gave any decision against the Muslims, against the Muslim League, then he would consider it against himself. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1001 will understand, will understand it against the nation. It is a very clear thing in front of us. You cannot deny what is clear. And for this purpose, they left from there, those Muslims who are not in the Muslim League. Ahmadis. About whom it is written here that the Muslim League does not include them due to prejudice or some other reason, and they do not want to join the Congress. There were some other Muslims as well who were not in the Muslim League, people of high positions, like Agha Khan. You mentioned the rest in it, they were contacted so that they could clarify to the British Government that all of them are cooperating with the League. Am I stating the position correctly? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did you consult with the Muslim League about this, about this? The Muslim League said that you are doing the right thing. After that, another question came up. Someone asked Mirza Sahib. It is alright that you went on a trip. Then he says further: Friends have written that the Viceroy, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Mr. Jinnah's mentions of advice appear in the newspapers, why doesn't yours? They did not understand that they are representatives of political parties. They are representatives of those political parties who had to make mutual decisions. And we are not representatives of any political party, but we went to guide them on the right path by exerting our influence. Representing political parties is neither our job, nor can the Government or anyone else call us in any way. There is no doubt that it is the duty of the Government to consult us as well... They should consult us as well, and take care of our rights. Our group 1 is around seven to eight hundred thousand in India. But the members of our group are so scattered that their voice is never valued. The League does not include us. We do not want to be included in Congress. In comparison, there are about three hundred thousand Parsis in India, but the government has appointed a Parsi minister in the center, and their group has been recognized as a legal group, even though our group is twice as large as them, or even more." Sir, what I wanted to show you was that a separate demand is ugitated have. And then after this, away from Muslims.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Not away from the Muslims, apart from the Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Apart from the Muslims. Apart from the Muslims. Distinguish them, like… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, if you allow me, I will explain it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's why I say that what you said, I didn't see it. Then they say, after that, they say that they sent a representative and made this request, they talk to Gandhi Ji. So in this context, this thing came up that the Ahmadiyya community thought because their representatives cannot come to the assembly because they are scattered, the government should pay attention itself. should. And it is our right that like Parsis can be taken, if they take one Parsi then we can present two Ahmadis. So because in those days you were supporting the League. There is no doubt, Mirza Sahib! Sahib, that is obvious. But the effort was also that along if you get separate representation as a separate body like the Parsis, that would be more better. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: May I have permission? Mr. Bichi Bakhtiar, I will give one more reference so that then you both.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If both are together then it is fine. Mr. Bichi Bakhtiar: After that, Mirza Sahib! Your "Al Fazl". Or I don't know whether Al Fazl is your newspaper or whose newspaper it is. Anyway.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This "Al Fazl" which is yes, I will tell you whose newspaper it is. The world After a great deal of experience and a great deal of deliberation, every country has made this law that On whom should the legal responsibility be placed for the things written in the newspaper? will go.... Mr. Bichi Bakhtiar, no, that is fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad and they invented an idiom "managing editor" and. Or again I am not clear about it, if you help me then my knowledge will increase, my I think that the responsibility of the press is a colonial necessity and it is free countries not in Nevertheless, we take it. The law is... Mr. Bichi Bakhtiar No, no, Mirza Sahib! That is not the point..... 1007 14104 Witnesses, 1714 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The law is that the content of the newspaper is the responsibility of the editor, or if it is a group, then theirs, if it is written, and the printing press, and no one else. Therefore, regarding whatever is written in the newspaper, you can only ask me if I am willing to take responsibility for it or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Mirza Sahib! The thing is, you can repudiate it, I am not saying you are. But this is a newspaper that presents your point of view, like, as I said, "Dawn" was, people thought it was the League's point of view, but the League was not bound by it. Similarly, you are not bound unless you yourself write on the newspaper that "this is our organ, official organ." Some write that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, some write that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have not written that, so okay, I understand that. But it is understood that this is your party's newspaper anyway. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, if there is any reference, then read it out, I will tell you whether I own it or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are some references that the Munir Committee wrote in its report that: Before Pakistan, such writings and statements were published by the Ahmadiyya community... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is its page number? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will tell you that: That the gist of their point was that even if Pakistan is formed, we will try that these divisions end, the partition of India ends. You can see page 10. This division should end and "then India should become united again". Writings of this nature, etc., so in this I will give you some references from "Al Fazl" which they are mentioning. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "This question of Akhand Hindustan has become a difficulty, and we have the answer to it..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I submitted yesterday as well, I had to ask some questions for that reason so that you could do that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, this is correct. Note this down, this has already come, which you have already stated. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, this was from the Munir Committee. They had said: This is estimated. This is "Al Fazl", sir, April 5, 1947, May 17, 1947, April 12, 1947, June 17, 1947. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he has written it down (pointing towards a member of the delegation). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is one from August 18. Look at this now, this is a small matter which is from June 17, Mirza Mahmood Ahmad, Imam of the Ahmadiyya Community.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: June 17, '47? Istal August, 1914 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Sir. In the end, I pray that, O my Lord! Grant understanding to my countrymen, and first of all, this country should not be separated, and if it is, then it should be in such a way that there are still ways to reunite. Now, Sir, I........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I cannot say anything until I see this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is an address after June 3rd when Pakistan was accepted. The Muslim League had achieved a victory, you are not sharing that victory; you are not sharing that hope. You say: "May God make it so that we reunite." So, you have to clarify this that you are not keeping yourself as a part of the Muslim nation. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this reasoning of yours is wrong in my opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this is my impression. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is wrong in my opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why I am clarifying. So, Mirza Sahib! After looking at the references, then give me its answer in my opinion. That is why I have presented them to you. I will read.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This one answer is already prepared... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then that part.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Principally---- Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then that part will happen. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You mean to include it at the end? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation): Include them too, okay, write this down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...Because the subject gets divided. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, there are a couple of small questions like that. Mirza Sahib! You have a mission in Israel, is that correct or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Several hundred thousand Muslims live in Israel... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I'm asking you first, look, first answer my question with a "yes" or "no." Then I will proceed. Then you explain. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now, now we come to this! Let us grapple with this problem.......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there any Mission of Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .........What does English Language mean by this 'Mission' Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What you have got in your compilation of foreign Missions. That contains......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mission. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That means.......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 'Mission', in the English language, means 'field of missionary activity'. POLANDARE SOLWILD UP FANISTAN August 1st, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I mean; I don't mean political activity; I never suggested that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. For the "field of missionary activity", it is enough to have members of the Ahmadiyya community there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Isn't your mission there? I'm not referring to the Ahmadiyya community. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Ahmadiyya community is there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Ahmadiyya community is there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And in my opinion, they would be five percent of the total Muslim population, 5% are Ahmadis. There are Ahmadis there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, okay, I am saying, do you have a mission there? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the Ahmadiyya community is there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Ahmadiyya community is there because you say that in the "foreign mission"... you can mention them in it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is why I translated "mission." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is from the concise Oxford Dictionary: "The field of missionary activity" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, in your book, regarding the foreign missions, on page 79, please also note whether the content that I am reading is there or not? I will not read all of it. As far as: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1009 "Ahmadiyya Mission in Israel" because I said: "The mission in Israel because you said this........... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes, the Ahmadiyya community is there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Ahmadiyya Mission in Israel is situated in Haifa at Mount Carmel, we have a mosque there, a Mission House, a library, a Book Depot, a school. The Mission also brings out a Monthly entitled 'All-Bushra' which is sent out to thirteen different countries accessible through the medium of Arabic many works of prophet Messiah have been translated into Arabic through this Mission." Then he further says in it: "Some time ago, our missionary had an interview with the mayor of Haifa, when, during the discussion on many points he offered to build us a school at Kababeer a village near Haifa, where we have a strong and well established Ahmadiyya Community of Palestinian Arabs. He also promised that he would come to see our Mission at Kababeer which he did later, accompanied by our notables from Haifa. He was duly received by the members of the community and by the students of our school. A meeting had been to welcome the guests. Before his return, he entered his impressions in the Visitors' Book. Another small incident, which would give readers some idea of the position the Mission in Israel occupies, is that in 1956 when our missionary, Chaudhry Mohammad Sharif, returned to Headquarters.. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which page is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This publication is from '65. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, the one you just read. HEY LAURYAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 21st, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1956. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1956. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "That, in 1956, when our missionary, Chaudhry Mohammad Sharif returned to the Headquarters of the movement in Pakistan, the President of Israel sent word that he (our missionary) should see him before embarking on the journey back. Ch. Mohd. Sharif utilized the opportunity to present a copy of the German translation of Holy Quran to the President, which he gladly accepted. This interview and what transpired at it was widely reported in the Israel press and a brief account was also broadcast on the Radio." Firstly, I would like to ask you a simple question: when your missionaries go there and come to Pakistan from there, on what passport do they travel? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Foreign. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Pardon? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Foreign Ahmadi goes there, Pakistan... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I very carefully read it Chaudhry Mohammad Sharif in a Pakistan: "When he returned to the Headquarters of the Movement in Pakistan". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not Pakistani. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is not a Pakistani? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he has foreign nationality. He lives abroad. He comes here too. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1011 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there also a Pakistani daughter? Is she also one, or is she not Pakistani according to them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know about that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't know about that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But they do have a foreign nationality. According to Pakistan's agreements with some countries... dual nationality. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I, the actual... dual nationality didn't come later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just wanted to know, because when he returned, you know. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we have American nationals who come to us, everyone comes... they come to the Headquarters. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am a lawyer, I use every word in the legal sense. "You return home." You didn't say: "when he comes here," "home." He returned to Pakistan. I wanted to know... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One who writes articles or these reports... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maybe... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... doesn't use the English words in the legal terms. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, either he could say that "he returned to the Headquarters," or he could have said that: "he came to the Headquarters." But he says: "when he returned." Chaudhry 1012 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (21st August, 1974 Mohammad Sharif is obviously a Pakistani person. He may have got a nationality, as you say; that is possible. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have thousands of people from this region, from India, settled in foreign countries... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That wasn't the case, it could be... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They go there as foreign missionaries. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right, he may have British nationality, or someone else's. I am not saying that, but I am asking whether he went on a foreign passport? You said he is a foreigner. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, a foreigner. He cannot be a Pakistani at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But your panel is Pakistani, isn't it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Thank God. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So when he reported to you that the President of Israel is doing this, that Israel said these things, you also...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, he didn't report this to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, to your Jamaat...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he came to the office here and gave the report... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That whatever Israel has said, which has been broadcasted so much on the radio there, also tell your government something about what Israel thinks. Did you give any information, or did you not consider it necessary? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in front of me, yes, yes, I am telling you. Actually, the thing is that all the things that you have placed in front of you right now, that is the same treatment by their government with various Muslim organizations. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You didn't think that I am insinuating. It gives people the impression of how strongly people are feeling, that's why I am saying it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am trying to remove that impression. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if I go to Israel... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I understand... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I somehow go to Israel, I am speaking frankly, as an enemy, as a friend, in any capacity, and some big person there calls me to talk, I will consider it my first duty to tell any big officer I can find in the government, "Hey, and our enemies, they are thinking on this line, these are the things that happened with them." I understand that this is not necessary, it is not an obligation, it is not the law... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, let me tell you, a little further, in a little digression, in 1970 I went on a tour of West Africa, myself, and in two countries I received a message from the Israeli ambassador, that "I want to meet." I said that I don't want to meet you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, daughter Bakhtiar, you have spoken reasonably. Yes, according to her, but suppose you meet Israelis... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely, I was not ready to meet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if there was a reception somewhere at the end and an ambassador of this sort was sitting there, talking to you, you would understand that these are political people, you would definitely, I am sure, tell the government that "Well, this is what he said to me." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The reception where it used to be, our ambassador was present. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it was, that is, it was nothing like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just wanted to ask you this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Just this one question? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is one on this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, on this matter? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: How small questions come up! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "So, Akhand Bharat..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a further explanation. Our group is there, in that area, which is now called Israel, established long before the existence of Israel... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's correct, I'm not saying otherwise. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the community was established there in 1924, 1928. In 1928. This Kya Beer, whose name has come up here, became a senior member of the community there. Since 1928, there have been very fraternal relations with Muslims belonging to all other sects there, and fraternal relations still exist. The question should be, if something can be done for the rights of the other Muslims there, the 95 percent, in any way, we do not have diplomatic relations with them. We should keep abreast of their news. If we do not pay attention to this, and make those loving relationships with each other an object of objection, then it does not seem very good. If those who are not our Ahmadis, the 95 percent, find out, they will also not like it, I am telling you this because they have very good relations with these people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Good relations are there, but I say if there is clarification, then it is fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No sir, I am very grateful to you, even if someone misunderstands. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I'm asking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am grateful to you. Everything should come to the fore. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! That book of yours, the one you were reading yesterday, I have a copy of it too. Please see if this is your publication? Because I might have gotten the wrong one. Mirza Sahib! This is the same one. "Outside Musalmans" the one with the "Outside Musalmans"... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, please show me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please have a look, sir. The photocopy came from this. This is it... Yours, you know, is the 1916 edition, this is the 1924, 1921 edition, and it was also published from Qadian. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is the 1924 edition. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And this is also the second edition in Urdu, "Seerat Masih Maud" in which: Ahmadis should write themselves as Muslims. So, in that year you distinguished your community by the name Ahmadi, distinguishing them from other Muslims, a distinct sect within Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I wanted to ask a couple of questions about this, that's why I said that you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, here it is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In this, I only wanted to submit that the headings that they have put are not from the original book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I understand that, okay. When you look at Banihal in Urdu... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes (to a member of his delegation) keep it in front. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Before that... Mirza Sahib! I forget things again. There was something else in my view, that I said they usually write that this is our official organ, there is one here: "Khaksar Mu'jam Al-Mufazzal Qadian, District Gurdaspur, organ of the Aliyah Ahmadiyya series. Al-Fazl newspaper, by the grace of God, is such a paper that it can be called the recognized organ of the Ahmadiyya community." You should also see this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Can be called." It is not said. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whatever it means, that the committee will judge. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it was like, "It is said" it would have carried great weight in your words. But here it says "Can be called." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just pointing it out, the rest, the committee will see what it means. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 58, which is my document. Yours might be something else. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, let's see. Yes. 110 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [21st August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In this, I had drawn your attention to a "Separatist tendency" that: "Ahmadis form a separate community from the outside Muslims." You said the Heading is not correct, and it is not in the original. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is not there at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that, it was: "The year 1901 was the year of census. The Promised Messiah issued a notice to his followers asking them to get themselves recorded in the census pagers. Under the name of 'Ahmadia Musalaman'. This was, therefore, the year when, for the first time, he differentiated his followers from the other Muslims by the name of 'Ahmadiya'." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is the same thing we were talking about yesterday.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you are two pages before that.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, two pages before that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is it, 84, it is in this. Because the Heading here is "Injunctions to Ahmadis regarding Marriage." So, this heading will be in English, there might not be a heading for it in Urdu. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there is no such heading. But let's take it out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, if you look at it in English, you will know. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is: "This year, to strengthen the unity of your community..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, let me read it, then you can see France, but its... "The same year....... 1898, that is because before this, the cursed property remained..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. 1019 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "the same year, with a view to strengthen the bonds of the community and to preserve its distinctive features, he promulgated rules regarding marriage and social relations and forbade the Ahmadis to give their daughters in marriage to Non-Ahmadis." Now, see the Urdu translation, it's not a matter of happiness or unhappiness, it's a matter of experience. It's an order. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there is no non-rule. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Injunctions. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. "movement of" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whatever you read in Urdu, please recite it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes: "This year, in order to strengthen the unity of your community and to preserve its distinctive features, he initiated the marriage relations and social system of the community and instructed the community that Ahmadis should not give their daughters to non-Ahmadi people." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 21, 1974) The phrase "to strengthen the unity of one's community" indicates that this is not a religious decree. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying that "they instructed, sent a direction." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sent a direction? But please... No, let me clarify, other sects have also said such things, but with one difference: "Deprived of inheritance," meaning the children will not be heirs. And the Ahmadiyya community has no such instruction. Rather, a daughter who is married outside [the community] anywhere, and her children, inherit from their Ahmadi elders. So, this is not a religious decree. That is, inheritance... that is, rights of inheritance remain, which indicates that this is not a religious decree. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I wanted to point this out... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...as is the case with other sects. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! What I wanted to submit is that an instruction came from Mirza Sahib, a direction came, because of which this happened. Not because you had the experience that Muslims do not treat their daughters well, keep them unhappy. I wanted to bring that distinction. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is there, in what I said... is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say, "to maintain their distinction, to strengthen their community." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, "to strengthen the unity of the community..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Not because they are not happy there. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, to strengthen the structure of the community... The structure can only be strong when everyone is happy... How can the structure remain strong where there is discord in the house? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, sir, that is your interpretation. Regarding the angels of Allah, it also appears on page 46... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The answer to that regarding the angels of Allah has already been given. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it hasn't been given. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh? Well, then perhaps that is some other reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I'll read it again then. I don't recall whether it's been given or not, perhaps it has. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the notes that we took, there is a note regarding a question about the angels of Allah, stating that its answer has been given. So, if not, if this is another question, then let us know. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I'll read it. If you believe that you have already answered it, then there is no need, in my opinion: The fifth thing that is extremely important for our community in this era is not to give daughters in marriage to non-Ahmadis. The person who gives his daughter in marriage to a non-Ahmadi does not understand the certainty of the Promised Messiah, nor does he know what Ahmadiyyat is. Is there any irreligious person among the non-Ahmadis? Is there anyone among the non-Ahmadis who would give his daughter to a Hindu or a Christian? You call those people infidels, but in this matter, they are better than you because, despite being infidels, they give their daughters... They don't give. But you, calling yourselves Ahmadis, give to a disbeliever. Do you give because he is of your قوم (community/nation)? But from the day you became Ahmadi, your قوم became Ahmadiyyat (the Ahmadiyya community). Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have already answered that. Mr. Makni Bakhtiar: That's right, sir. Mirza Sahib! Sometimes today I am not coming to the main subject first, the small things that are left. You say that I have read many references that the "enemy says this," "the opponent says this." So the impression is not clear. The impression is that "enemy" not only refers to Christians but also to those Muslims who were against Mirza Sahib or who do not believe in him. You said that no, here it refers to Christians." Whatever references I have read here, you have said it yourself. So I just want to draw your attention to this book. Some clarification from you on this, that all the references you read, their audience was non-Muslim Christians, etc. This is what I had to say, but this is? Yes, "enemy" or "opponent" can be addressed to both. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the non-Muslims who are enemies, wherever their enmity exists, they will be addressed. All the Christians in the world are not Muslims, but they are not attacking Islam either. So when it is said about Christians that they are enemies, only those individuals of the Christian religion will be meant who are attacking Islam. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI UKOUP DELEGATION And when it is said about Muslims, "opponents," then every Muslim who is not Ahmadi will not be an opponent, but only a few, perhaps not even one percent, who are at war with the Ahmadis... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is correct, I am saying this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And this will determine who the opponent is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, I have told you some references. There was one from "Anjam Atham." In it, you clearly stated that it was specifically that Atham, or Aatham, whatever his name was... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Abdullah Atham. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Abdullah Atham, it is referring to him, because it was clear from the context. In some, there was no mention of any specific Christian being referred to. I am telling you: "Whoever opposes me is a Jew, polytheist, and destined for hell." If something like that comes up, then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I remember is that, I mentioned yesterday that this Arabic phrase is about the future. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, I am saying it like this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Among your opponents were Muslims also included. Were there Muslim scholars, clerics, or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A portion of the Muslim scholars were among our opponents. 1464 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [21st August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, some scholars, I am saying that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there were some scholars. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Some scholars, some scholars… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And likewise in other religions, perhaps a percentage of them might later attack Islam, but the original reference, the subject matter in a book, it explains itself who is being called "opponent." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sometimes it is clear, Mirza Sahib! And sometimes it is not. Like yesterday you… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it's not clear, ask me. … Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I asked you yesterday: The enemy thinks. The enemy thinks that we will devour his religion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I explained that very clearly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You were explaining, I was not satisfied, therefore, God knows whether the committee members were satisfied or not. But it was my duty to ask you about their... The "opponent" they call, it doesn't necessarily mean Christian. It can also be Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It was very clear there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not there, Mirza Sahib! I am asking generally that they have been opposing you. Therefore, "opponent" does not only mean Christian. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I myself said... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is true that when he... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That from every sect of Muslims, one or two percent of each sect are such that they vehemently oppose them. The rest are not addressed to that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just look, I glanced through this book, and I draw your attention to when they mention the opponents, who is opposing them. Now, Mirza Sahib went to certain places to give lectures, he goes to the same place, then people would come: "People advised the promised Messiah not to go to the mosque as there was a likelihood of a serious riots" There is mention of Sir Molly, I think... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And which one? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is page 34 of the book, when he went on the train for the first time. He went to Delhi twice, but the first time he went... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the first time he went and there were only twelve Ahmadis with him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am not saying why they asked for police protection. Everybody has a right, I am not saying that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And it is in our books that they did not ask for protection from the police, they themselves arranged it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The police themselves did it, they give speeches under police protection. August 14, 1966 "The special edifice of Jamia mosque was full of men both inside and outside and even stairs were crowded with the sea of men who were mad with rage and looked at him with bloody eyes. The promised Messiah and his little band made their way to the mehrab......... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What page is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 34 there were a sea of men or Muslims in the Mosque." "Bloody, what are you calling them?" Then I ask you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Bloody" means a curse... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I know, bloody in anger, in rage. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They were angry. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Chairman: We break for Maghrib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this the same reference from where: Ahmadi Muslims get it written? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is the English edition of what I have, Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That was one, wasn't it, earlier: Ahmadi Muslims get it written, that has become a Calcutta to find the reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This that comes before this.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it comes before this. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1027 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The announcement is followed by the storm of opposition. This is the heading given here. Then it says on page 31: Those very theologians who had formerly commanded him now stood up to denounce him. Then there is mention of Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Batalvi. Then on the next page comes his... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You arrived on the morning of September 28, 1891..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, are you looking at this Urdu one? If you, if you look at the English one... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I mean, the year is given here as well, the year will be given there as well. September 28, 1891, and there is a... Mr. Chairman: We are breaking for Maghrib, and then, after Maghrib, we will resume this question. The Delegation is permitted to leave. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, this one, yes, this one, after that, then next page... Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney-General, we are breaking for Maghrib, and then, at 7.30....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After break? Mr. Chairman: After break, this question will continue. 1028 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [21st August. 1974 The Honorable members may keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber). Mr. Chairman: The House is adjourned to meet at 7.30. Thank you very much. The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib Prayers to meet at 7.30 p.m. The Special Committee, re-assembled after Maghrib Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. TIME FOR CROSS-EXAMINATION Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: I have a small request, sir! The request is that we are hearing from a few members that they want the discussion to end quickly. The request is that a very important record is being made... Mr. Chairman: (Secretary is there) Call them, make them sit outside. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: This is a national record and an international record. We want it to be fully clarified because people will read it in the future. Therefore, we should not rush it. ATTENDANCE IN THE COMMITTEE Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: I would also like to say to the other members that they should come here on time. The whole nation is watching us, what we are doing. ATTENDANCE IN THE COMMITTEE 1029 Even today, someone outside told me that you people sit in the cafeteria and are not taking interest in it. This is a national task and a very important task. This time that is wasted, our time is wasted, their time is not wasted. I will submit to the honorable members through you that please do not waste time. Whenever, whatever time is fixed, they should come on time and leave on time so that this record is completely thrashed out, or clarified. Mr. Chairman: So far as the first......... Saiyid Abbas Hussain Gardezi: kept standing. Mr. Chairman: Please sit down. Mr. Muhammad Afzal Randhawa: Sir! A leave of absence should also be written to Mehran. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Shah Sahib! Please sit down, I will answer both things. So far as the fist point is concerned, we cannot sit for an definite period only on this ground that we are preparing record for the generations we cannot sit for one year or three months or two months..... Saiyid Abbas Hussain Gardezi: I am not saying that. The time that is according to you or according to the rules, that time should not be wasted. This time that is wasted, is not wasted for them, it is wasted for us. Mr. Chairman: This is another task of preaching. I have been sitting on this chair for a year preaching that for God's sake, come here, come on time. My words have no effect, you can try your luck, my words have no effect. 1030 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 21, 1974) Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: Mr. Speaker, through you, I respectfully submit to the honorable members... Mr. Muhammad Al-Fazal Rawn Maowa: Mr. Speaker! What is the use of convincing those who are present? Write letters to those who are absent. Mr. Chairman: Shah Sahib, after the budget, they start slipping away one by one. They pick up their bags and slip away. And they keep sitting here. In Budget one day we started with six members. This is not right, sir. Professor Ghafoor Sahib: The Minister Sahib has arrived, he is in my chamber, he will come here as well. You can have a discussion with him again. I said he is coming right now. Chaudhry Sahib was sitting, he was talking about something regarding it, however it may be. Yes, so Now I am going to call them They may be called. (The Delegation entered Chamber.) CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: With the permission of the Chair, It would be good if a little clarification could be made. Regarding what you said about Palestine earlier, that when Chaudhry Muhammad Sharif returned in '56, a report was made at that time. So I just want to put it on record that my election was in '65 and at that time I don't even remember if we thought... UKUSS BAAMINATION UF INB QADIANT GROUP DELEGATION 1031 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I already told you that we don't discuss that with you. You may recall, you said you weren't in charge. Maybe you yourself were in Europe, you weren't at that place. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I wasn't in Europe, but I had nothing to do with that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said that because... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because the book is from 1965, and they came in 1956, so that question doesn't even arise. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's my note regarding Palestine, we did a lot of work on that, with the Muslims of Palestine, against the establishment of the existence of Israel. I will tell you about that in due time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, we have no dispute on that. I am only asking you about those things that people ask questions about. I was mentioning to you that when the word "opponent" comes up repeatedly, it implies that Muslims are also included in it. And it was mentioned that everywhere Mirza Sahib went, in Delhi, Amritsar, Lahore, Sialkot, it is repeatedly mentioned that Muslims opposed. Others might have also done it. And there were scholars among them, and some others... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It never says that all Muslims did it... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. McKinney Bakhtiar, no... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's why I said that there were a few percent who... who kept opposing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I said, that Muslims are also included in it, when they say "opposition," it's not necessary that they are only Christians. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I had already said that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I was drawing your attention to the fact that in Delhi, thousands of them, they say, were all part of it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, out of crores. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Naturally. The vast building of Jama Masjid Delhi was full of people inside and out, people were even standing on the meters. Passing through a crowd of thousands of people, while everyone was looking at you with mad, bloodshot eyes, I would say that you showed great composure and forbearance. These are the same people who would behead someone for saying or not saying "Ameen bil Jahr". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, in one place, they came... it is written here in the book: "His cousin, Sir Ahsan, in Nineteen one hundred (19017), and some of his relatives, who were opposed to him, put up a wall in front of ........ were. I am saying in "opponent" that all kinds of people can come, not only Christians. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I have already said that, as far as I know, two to three percent of every religion and every sect of Islam has come in opposition. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I just want to point out that when they go to Amritsar, there is also a mention that the Maulvis there came in large numbers. I am not saying that all the Maulvis were there, but those who were in the hall there were opposing, they were also described as "Opponent". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well, the whole history is full of Shia-Sunni riots and these riots, our history. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That Mirza Sahib! The meeting in Lahore etc., Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right, there is no denying it, the whole history is full of these riots. seat. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: I will request Sardar Aleem to resume his Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Is it the opinion of your Jamaat that the Holy Quran and the revelations of the Promised Messiah are both the words of God Almighty, there can be no difference between the two, so the question of giving preference does not arise, both have the same status? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In this sentence, there are two questions. If you allow me, may I analyze it? The fundamental truth about all of creation, of this entire universe, is that the two things that emanate or proceed from the being of Allah the Almighty cannot be contradictory. Firstly, and secondly, the question here is, what kind of revelation? So, it is our belief—I will tell you my own… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I am asking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is our belief that every revelation of the Promised Messiah, peace be upon him, is subservient to the revelations of the Holy Prophet and is explanatory; it does not add anything, not a single word to the Sharia of Muhammad, and the Islamic guidance, but rather is an interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but is their status the same? Because you write that both are messages from Allah the Almighty. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We believe that the Promised Messiah, peace be upon him, was truthful, and that is why we recognized him, and when he said that this revelation was from Allah the Almighty, we believe that it was from Allah the Almighty… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, it happened just like the Quran? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And look, please wait for the sentence I am about to say; wait for my answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not mistaken about this, because you said earlier that he is only a follower, I am not saying that... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1035 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I was just saying that one sentence of my answer was remaining, please listen to that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sorry, you may say it, then I will ask. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I say that it is our belief that that which is actually the word of Allah, there is no contradiction in it, and their status, due to their source, origin, and fountainhead, is not different at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It became the same? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That which is further explanation that I made of the explanation, that is its explanation, this is our belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I, I, am only asking this that do you keep both at the same level? That both are the words of Allah, according to you, and both are correct words? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We keep both at one level in this regard that both are the words of Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I am saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: From this level... But some other things... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying about this, I am coming to this now. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, that, that is correct. Because both are the word of God. Therefore, both hold the greatness of the word of God within them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And all the hadiths that are there, they naturally cannot be at the level of the Quran, and the revelations of Mirza Sahib, his inspirations, do you consider them higher than the hadiths? 1036 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 21, 1974) Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "Wa ma yantiqu anil hawi" The Holy Quran says: "In huwa illa wahyun yuha." Whatever the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) says, that saying is not of his own accord, but according to the support of God, it is his saying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the saying that Mirza Sahib received from God, is it of a higher status than Hadith or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Every… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You see... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I understand, I am about to answer. Every authentic Hadith is lower than the inspiration of the Promised Messiah (peace be upon him), because it is related to Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You understand Hadith to be lower? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Every authentic Hadith, whatever authentic Hadith there is, we consider it in any case to be higher than the interpretation of the Promised Messiah, whether it is divinely inspired or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, I will read you a reference, you can check, this is from Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib, "Al Fazl" April 25, 1915: "Hadith is not taken from the roundabout way of dozens of narrators, and inspiration is direct. Therefore, inspiration is superior." Here it is clear. Further he says: CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1037 are more reliable than the traditions of the Hadith. Did we not hear the Hadith from the mouth of the Holy Prophet? (Inspiration) "Not only Ilham" but the things that are.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I will clarify when you finish your talk, I will clarify now. Imam Bukhari, may Allah shower His mercy on him, reached him six hundred thousand hadiths through different narrations, and out of them he rejected about five hundred and ninety-four thousand, and only took six thousand narrations. So the real key here is the narrators, not the question of Sahih Hadith. Approximately six hundred thousand hadiths reached Hazrat Imam Bukhari through various narrators and he issued a fatwa regarding 5 lakh 94 thousand hadiths that they are not acceptable. He did not say this because he holds that this is the word of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and I do not accept it, but because he said that among the different narrators through whom they reached me, some are so weak that I do not find myself ready to accept their word. that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) must have said this." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I understand your point, I am telling you the reason for its weakness, that why the Hadith is weak, and why Mirza Sahib's words are stronger than it, you have explained the reason. I asked, is this your belief? So please clarify this. Mirza Nasir Ahmada: No, I... Oh ho... Oh! Absolutely not. This is why I started with "What is Sahih Hadith..." 1038 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN f21st August 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I say this because... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I have said the correct Hadith, I cannot back down with that condition... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look: Hadith has reached us through the twists and turns of dozens of narrators, and divine inspiration is direct. Therefore, divine inspiration takes precedence... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, every Hadith... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This has become a general point. After that, I submitted that he says: The things we have heard from the Promised Messiah are more reliable than the narrations of Hadith. Hadith... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Not more reliable than Hadith, but the narrations of Hadith. ------ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, you are giving a clarification. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I am saying what is written here, so that you pay attention to it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The things we have heard from the Promised Messiah are more reliable than the narrations of Hadith. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Than the narrations of Hadith, not than Hadith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, yes... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not from Hadith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Hadith traditions are reliable. We have not heard the Hadith from the mouth of the Holy Prophet. My point is, Mirza Sahib! That the Hadith, even if you say it is a hundred times correct, is not above Mirza Sahib's words because no one has heard it, even if 100 Imam Bukharis say so. Therefore, Mirza Sahib's words, his sayings, take precedence over them. This is what he is saying. Please clarify this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From this statement, you are taking such a meaning from this statement that even our eighth-grade child cannot take. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am a fool, a thick-headed man, like Jesus, but I am telling you that here... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, when it comes to our, our religion, then I will tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's right, that's why I'm asking you, Mirza Sahib! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When I tell you, you don't accept it. That's the end of it for me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, I don't accept it, that's why I am taking clarification, otherwise, the committee could have reached its conclusion after reading it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right, thank you very much. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, the reason I am saying this is that I am performing a very difficult duty, that there should be clarification, these things should come to light. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I quite understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Right now, all sorts of notes are coming to me, I ask you a question, ten notes come: "Ask this, ask this." So, in that, I say that the meaning that is visible from here, the reasoning, ground, rationale, is so clear that: "And the things we have not heard from the Promised Messiah are more reliable than the traditions of Hadith..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Than the traditions of Hadith? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, than the traditions of Hadith... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: For example, let me explain, let me clarify it further... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I could just ask this question... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...are more reliable. We have not heard the Hadith from the mouth of the Holy Prophet." Now, the meaning that I derive from this is that the Hadith that you consider authentic, which you are completely certain is correct, even about that, no one can say that we heard it from the mouth of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), and because we have not heard it from his mouth, therefore, the things that Mirza Sahib said, and we heard from his mouth, are superior to them, are more reliable... MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: This is not our religion. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: If that is not the meaning, then you should clarify it. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: This is not our religion. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Alright. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: It is our belief that, for example, a Hadith sometimes reaches Imam Bukhari, the author of the books of Hadith, after passing through seven narrators. And in it, after about one and a half to two hundred questions, he wrote this book. And through many narrators, one narrated from another. In this way, the chain went on. So, in terms of narration, there are many narrators whom Muslim accepted, and Imam Bukhari did not. There are many narrators whom Imam Bukhari accepted, and the later saints did not accept. There are many narrators whom Imam Bukhari rejected, and our later saints accepted them. So, this is the reality of the Hadith and because of the narration, whichever Hadith we, our elders, at this time, I would say that which our Promised Messiah, peace be upon him, and the later Caliphs, and I, have accepted that its narration is correct, there is no comparison to it, the words of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, with the words of Hazrat Promised Messiah, peace be upon him. Meaning, this is my religion. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: No, what you are saying is correct, I am just saying that here they have made a distinction... MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: He has emphasized the "narration." Because of Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar's narration... Because it is a narration... Because of the narration, it cannot be as authentic as a direct statement. If any of us say, "You heard it directly, then naturally..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which one is this? The answer will be in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have told you... of April 25th... which was given to me in writing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it from the same book? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have referred to "Al Fazl". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh, "Al Fazl". So, perhaps there is some answer before or after it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why, Mirza Sahib! You should see. I am performing such a duty, and you are getting upset. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am not upset at all, I am your servant. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am the servant, sir, of the Assembly, as they order, I comply with it. Mirza Sahib! In your sermon, which I think is of June 21st, is also in the "Mahzar Nama," in that, you have stated... I am reading your 12th page: "This constitution gives him......" This article, you know, is interpreting 20(A). In it, you state! "This constitution gives him the right to announce whether he is a Muslim....... " I am reading from above so that you remember. After quoting CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1043 "Every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion.” Further ahead, you are interpreting it that: "In other words, this constitution, which is.... Beyond that is: "Every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage his religious institutions.". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ok, this is a clause in the Constitution. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In Article 20th of the Constitution, you state that: In other words, this constitution, which is a source of pride for us, guarantees to every citizen of Pakistan his religion, that is to say, the religion which he, and not Mr. Bhutto or Mufte Mahmood or Mr. Moudoodi, chooses for himself. Whatever religion a citizen chooses, that is his religion and he can announce it. This constitution gives him the right to announce that he is a Muslim or not, and, if he announce, that he is a Muslim, then this constitution of which the People's Party is proud, and of which we are also proud because of this article, guarantees to every citizen to announce that, being a Muslim, he is a Wahabi or an Ahle-Hadith or an Ahle Quran or Barailve or Ahmadi." So, the impression that I get from this is that you also consider yourselves as one of the sects of the rest of the Muslims. Was this always your attitude that you are a sect, or did you think that you are Islam and you are the real Islam, and there is no one else, no sects or anything? 1044 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [21st August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That old reference that was given, that in the census it should be written, in that also, the instruction was, the advice was, that Ahmadi Muslims of the sect. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Sect is not there, it is written in it: entered an Ahmadi - Muslim Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ahmadi Muslim sect" is also in one place, yes, Muslims of the Ahmadiyya sect, meaning both phrases are present in both instructions. So Ahmadi, this thing that you have said, it is correct that we, like in '72 and '73, similarly consider ourselves a sect, and have always considered ourselves as such. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This lecture that Mirza Sahib gave in London, it wasn't exactly a lecture, he briefed his own people, but this book was written at that time by Mirza Bashiruddin Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ahmadiyyat or True Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this "Ahmadiyyat or the True Islam" is the 1937 edition, published from Qadian, it is on page 34, on this Mirza Sahib says: "He distilled the impure water and discovered the subterranean channel, and removed the veil from our eyes, and opened wide the door to a vast field of research and discovery, thus providing for the ever increasing needs of mankind, without, in the least, going outside the teaching of the Holy Quran and interfering with the form of Islam, which was established by the Holy Prophet (Peace and the blessing of God be upon him) and which it the will of God to preserve till the end of days. Once this is realized, it will be easy to comprehend that 1045 although the Ahmadiyya Movement believes firmly in the Holy Quran and is a Movement of Muslims, it cannot be ranked merely as one of the sects of Islam... I go further please: ……..On the contrary, it claims that it alone represents to the world the real Islam that was revealed over 1300 years ago, and that its special mission is to enrich mankind with the unlimited spiritual treasures contained in the Holy Quran. I am saying this because of what you are saying... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, in this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't consider yourself as merely a sect of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have read this, what is the question on it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I submitted to you that you say that you are a sect of Islam and you should be treated as Wahabis and others. I said that this has not been your stand before. Previously your stand has been that: "We are not a sect of Islam. We should not be ranked as one of the sects of Islam; we are the real Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Every sect has the same belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I am asking you now, Mirza Sahib! I… Mirza Sahib, you had stated that day that the Promised Messiah was also a prophet. In that capacity, there were some questions on it. I will ask later about the Lahore party. If you want to say something? But one thing is not clear to me, do you consider Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, as a Sharia-bearing prophet or an Ummah-following prophet? 1046 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [21st August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Messiah Nasiri? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), no follower prophet could come, nor did come, because... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning the followers of Moses. That is what I mean. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am saying the same thing, I am saying the same thing. Not with respect to the Holy Prophet, but with respect to Moses, or the other prophets who were from whichever regions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), no follower prophet has come, nor could come, because at that time, the laws they brought were not complete, and as a result of complete obedience and as a result of annihilation in the Prophet, this blessing (unintelligible) could not be found. This is our belief. So, the follower can only be of the Holy Prophet, who has gone highest in his greatness and glory, and you have given a complete and perfect guidance and law to mankind in the form of the Holy Quran. Before that, Jesus Christ... If you want, should I explain it a little? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, clarify its status. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Moses was a prophet with a law. After him, the prophets who came in Israel, despite the fact that they were followers of the law of Moses, but they were making slight differences, complete obedience is not seen in them. After Muhammad (PBUH), our belief is this... LAVDA PAMUKANA CIUITIVE JOB YAVIANI UAVUT DELEGATION 1047 is that not even a stroke of the Holy Quran can be abrogated. But Jesus said this: The law of Moses said that an eye for an eye. This is the command of the law, of the Torah. Jesus said that if someone slaps one cheek, turn the other as well, meaning he emphasized reconciliation, and Jesus emphasized forgiveness. But, on the whole, he adhered to the Mosaic law. And it is necessary for a "Nabi" who is an "Umati" to completely follow his "Matboo Nabi" (followed prophet), who is not the "Sahib-e-Shariat Nabi" (prophet with his own law), in every single word, every single stroke. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning Jesus was not a "Sharia Nabi" (prophet with his own law)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's what I was asking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, in our view he was not a "Sharia Nabi" (prophet with his own law). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was saying "Umati" in the sense that he was from the community of Moses, he was also a Jew. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But according to our terminology, "Umati Nabi" does not apply to him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Would you call him "Ghair Sharia" (without his own law)? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Ghair Sharia Tabi Nabi" (non-law-bearing follower prophet), but your prophethood is not an "Umati" prophethood, not as a result of complete obedience. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 1st, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And were they subordinate to Moses? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They were subordinate to the law of Moses. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And were they to establish the same law? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: On the whole. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: On the whole. And Mirza Sahib's position is that they are also un-Islamic and they also follow Muhammad (PBUH)'s law... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But not on the whole, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Absolutely, that I say. But are both Islamic? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Both are not Islamic. It is mentioned in the Holy Quran that after the Torah: that after Moses... the Holy Quran states that such prophets came, in the children of Israel, who used to enforce the laws of Moses, used to make people follow them, and used to provide guidance to the people. But even a small difference makes a big difference. I have clarified it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the one about Islamic and un-Islamic, yes... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Un-Islamic Prophet? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so after that the position becomes, as far as I understand, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's position among the sects of Muslims, the remaining sects, was the same as the position of Jesus among the sects of the Jews? CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI URQUE DELOVATION 1347 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, because there is a difference in the status of Hazrat Mu'ini and Hazrat Masih Maud, who we call. The status of Hazrat Masih Maud, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is that of complete, absolute obedience. But that is not the status of Hazrat Masih. That's why there is a difference between the two. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was saying this because the difference is not because they were also non-Sharia, and these are also non-Sharia... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In terms of being non-Sharia, those thousands of prophets who came in the Bani Israel after Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him), including Hazrat Isa, were non-Sharia, and Hazrat Masih Maud is also non-Sharia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Their relationship, their connection... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only to that point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. This... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only to that extent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because this point is that if... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that, yes... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Right now, here, I have seen such a reference. That's why I am asking you that... "In short, prophets are of two kinds." As I said, in terms of Sharia... I am reading from Page 28, sir: "...those who are law-bearers like Moses..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Page 28? 1050 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 21st, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 28: 11 (Peace be upon him), and those who only restore and re-establish the law after mankind have forsaken it; as, for instance, Elyah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Jesus (Peace be upon them all). The prophet Messiaha (peace be upon him) also claimed to be a prophet like the latter, and asserted that as Jesus was the last khalifa (Successor) of the Messiaha dispensation, he was the last khalifa of the Islamic dispensation". Please mark the words: "He asserted". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He was the Khalifa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: and assented that just as Jesus was the last khalifa (Successor) of the Mosaic dispensation, he was the last khalifa of the Islamic dispensation." They are comparing on the same footing... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not footing... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this that I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, let me clarify a little... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me finish reading. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, you will understand that: Sincerely Allah I want to tell. In which there is a reference to the Quranic verse. I'm just silent... CAVS LAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1051 Just as he was the last Khalifa of the Mosaic dispensation, he was the last Khalifa of the Islamic dispensation. The Ahmadiyya Movement, therefore, occupied with respect to the other sects of Islam, the same position which Christianity occupied with respect to the other sects of Judaism." Does it not conclusively show that as Christianity is a different religion compared to Judaism, Ahmadiyyat is a different religion compared to other sects? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This I want you to clarify. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it does not follow from this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this because the comparison they are doing... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The comparison is being done in the light of a verse of the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's right, that's why I have read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (Arabic) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Next, I will elaborate more on this point on page 29, he says: "Muhammad (on whom be peace and blessings of God), being thus the like of Moses (on whom be peace), it was necessary that the Messiah of Islamic dispensation should not only be from among his followers but should come to re-establish and propagate the Quranic law just as Jesus came with no new law, but only confirmed the Torah-....." Then he further explains, what you have said: 1052 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 21, 1974 "...I have already indicated that one of the functions of a Prophet, who is not the bearer of a new law, is to sift all errors and misinterpretations which may have crept into an existing religious system owing to lapse of time, and this in itself is a great task. To discover and restore that which had been lost is almost as great a task as to supply that which is new. But we believe that the promised Messiah (on whom be peace) had a much higher mission to perform. In order, however, to understand what that mission was it is necessary first to understand clearly our position with regard to the Holy Quran....... Then he describes further, on that, what I wanted to show you, Sir is that Mirza Bashiruddin Sahib, in his book or lecture draws the parallel that Mirza Sahib has got the same position with regard to Islam or Prophet Muhammad which Jesus Christ had with regard to Moses or Judaism. Then it is also stated -and you may have read it and you may understand it batter than I do that Jesus Christ had made some changes as you just...... What you just said, but the basis is the same as Moses' Law. a Prophet without (But being a Ghair Sharai Nabi his own Law, he founded a new Ummat to it a fact or not? He founded a new religion is it a fact or not? And if you draw the parallel, does it not amount to the fact that Ahamadiyyat is a new religion? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The author of this book drew no parallel, he referred to the Quramic Verses. And for this reason, I am silent. Tomorrow, I will write down the verses of the Holy Quran and tell you with the translation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, Mirza Sahib! I have been reading to the Assembly, and for this reason I am drawing your attention, you get angry with me again! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am not upset, I mean I can't answer right now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say the same thing, the thing that I see, this meaning can be derived from it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You will derive this after reading the verses of the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is also un-Islamic, this is also un-Islamic. They also established the old law, they are also doing it, but the conclusion drawn is that their position is the same as that of Hazrat Isa compared to the Jews, our position is compared to the Muslims. And then in that separation, all these things that your Rules of Conduct and come, you have also made a new law, given instructions, given directions. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding separatism, there is such a big issue with me... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, that's why this issue also comes into it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, the thing is, that's why I was listening in complete silence because this passage is related to two verses of the Holy Quran, and until those are in a person's mind, it is not that easy to understand this passage. Because one has.....n .that case, one has to theorise, although here the facts are not there, the verses of the Holy Quran, in their light something has been said. So, God willing, I will answer it tomorrow morning, I will put the verses of the Holy Quran in front. August 141st, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, Mr. Mirza! He came and said, page 32, this is a separate subject, it is not directly connected. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right, that's right. 533366 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The Holy Quran contains a full and complete refutation of every doubt which is suggested by each succeeding age under the ever-changing conditions of the world and reply to every criticism which may be based on new knowledge and new discoveries." He says in the last paragraph: "By pointing out this miracle of the Holy Quran, the promised Messiah, (on whom be peace) has effected a revolution in spiritual matters. The Muslims certainly believe that the Holy Quran was perfect but, during the last 1300 years, nobody had imagined that not only was it perfect but that it was an inexhaustible storehouse in which the needs of all future ages had been provided for, and that on investigation and research it would yield for richer treasures of spiritual knowledge than material treasures which nature is capable of yielding." Now, Sir, first of all, this gives me an impression that Mirza Sahib discovered something which was not discovered for 1300 years by the Muslims, in the Holy Quran. This hidden treasure, which he discovered and pointed out, was a revolution. Now, I will respectfully ask you, Mirza Sahib, that, as far as the interpretation of the Holy Quran is concerned, I am not as aware or acquainted as you are now. Apart from those provisions of the Holy Quran, those Ayat, which directly or indirectly deal with the status of a Nabi or Mehdi or Isa coming back, which indirectly or directly prove or try to prove that Mirza Sahib was a Nabi or Mahdi or Isa, what other provisions of the Holy Quran has he interpreted which nobody had interpreted before - and Jihad - these, apart from these? Because these are the subjects of CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION _his interpretations _ 1055 and on the question of Jehad_ Khatm-e-Nabuwat, what it means, death of Jesus. From which things is the proof of his own prophethood found, or the proof of his being the Promised One found, in the Quran, regarding them, and regarding Jihad, other than these what was the treasure that Muslims could not find in 1300 years and Mr. (Mirza) Sahib has brought it forward and presented it? This is something very important, because I got so many questions. I want to put it very briefly. So, would you like to say something about this now? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Please sit down, you will get tired. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, it's fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Quran has claimed, the Holy Quran has: These are Quranic verses that I have also read. In another place it is stated that the Holy Quran is a clear book, that is, an open, clear book, every person can read it, can try to benefit from it, according to their ability. And here, it is stated that this is a hidden book, and not every person of the Muslim Ummah can read it, but rather this restriction is placed on it: Only the group of the purified ones, from the Muslim Ummah, can derive the meanings that are present in the Holy Quran: "A revelation from the Lord of the Worlds." 1030 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 21st, 1974) Our claim that this is a perfect and complete law and guidance until the Day of Judgment, in the form of the Holy Quran, could not have been true unless some spiritual secrets and subtle knowledge of the Holy Quran were such that, according to the needs of the times, God's beloved servants learn the meanings and interpretation of the Holy Quran from God within the Ummah of Muhammad, and then tell the people of that time, of that place, of that region. Until the Holy Quran is a hidden book, this claim will be false, that it is from God for the whole Universe for all times to come, until the Day of Judgment. This is a very broad topic, I cannot explain it all, I will just give a few hints. If you read our "Mahzar Nama"... in our "Mahzar Nama" there is an essay, its name is: "The Success of God's Chosen Ones in the Trial of Infidelity of the Soul". In it, as an example, we have selected from centuries and briefly written some events of 55 famous elders of the Ummah. When we look at their lives, we see that, for example, when Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani started the work of construction and renewal, the scholars of that time accused him of infidelity, saying, "You are saying things that the righteous predecessors did not say before you." Because God Almighty taught them some parts of this hidden book, this hidden treasure, which is mentioned here, this book of knowledge, according to the times. But the scholars of outward knowledge looked at the previous books and accused them. And so... CROSS EXAMINATION UP ING QAVINCI DAUDE, DRINA DE ANGAN After years, a great man was born in our community, after Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani Sahib, they declared him an infidel by saying, "You say things that Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani Sahib did not use to say." I am telling the meaning of their lives, that is, I am not reading any page reference or quotation, these are the conditions of their lives... This is an accepted fact, this is an obvious thing, this is such a thing that no human being can deny that time is changing every moment. And after some time, as a result of the changing times, new problems arise in human life. To solve these problems, will the Holy Quran come or not? We say it always comes. For example, I will give a new example, in the nineteenth century there was also the Agrarian Revolution and in the nineteenth century there was also the Industrial Revolution, although it was the beginning, but in any case, the history of the Agrarian Revolution in England is before me and the Industrial Revolution as well. As a result of this revolution, the laborer got together, as a result of this revolution, the relationship between the employer and the laborer changed as compared to the old times, the result of this revolution was that in the end, according to the guidance of the Sharia. I am knowingly saying "Sharia" at the moment, I am not saying "Sharia Muhammadiyah" because there were other people as well, for example, Christians, they were talking about their Sharia. So I knowingly said it for this reason. Otherwise, the original Sharia for that time is the Sharia Muhammadiyah. Because these problems were not solved according to the law revealed by God Almighty, that is why so much corruption has spread in the world that at this time some people are starting to think that as a result of our sins we might be completely destroyed in the world. 1058 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 21st, 1974 Now you say that Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) extracted which hidden treasures from the book Maskanoon. I say to you that this agriculture... The English Ever Lution, which is called, and as a result of the Industrial Ever Tution, some place in the form of Socialism and Communes, that is, a section of human beings believes, I am Wicating, of human beings. - Another section does not agree with this. We do not get into this dispute. In order to solve these problems, he extracted sciences from the Holy Quran, and in it, he himself is a personal witness. Although I do not like to talk about myself, but at this time I am compelled That I went to Europe last year in '73, and I did press conferences in at least four places on the continent, and there I told them about this issue that Communism is presenting a solution to today's problems of mankind, much better than that, much better. Better, a solution that satisfies man much more is present in the Holy Quran. So, The person who says that which hidden treasures were revealed through Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya in this 180, I will say to them that I do not claim that all the previous books are this. If someone has such a command that he extracts material from the previous books to solve today's problems, then we will understand, okay, all that treasure It has already come, there is no need for a new one. So at the same time, the Quran's claim that "I I am a clear book and at the same time, in the same breath, this claim is very contradictory that I am a hidden book" the interpretation of this verse is: I have command. This interpretation that I have just told you, with this vastness, with this expansion, I don't think it comes before. But he knew that the problems of every age are different. Number one, the relief in the Holy Quran for solving problems for all times, number two, in every era, God Almighty creates such saints of the Ummah who, for solving these new problems, derive and infer from the Holy Quran, is the unanimous decision of the entire Ummah. And what I have mentioned, the thirst that was given and the good fortune that was bestowed, was the result of: (Arabic) Which cannot be understood by the common man. So there are countless hidden treasures, here I have spoken for five to seven minutes, if you allow me, I will give a little sample for two or four days. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Time is very short, Mirza Sahib! I said, Mirza Sahib, tell me those verses which he himself interpreted, and no one else has done, tell me that. You are not telling, then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have told one just now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have told your own, I was asking about Mirza Sahib's. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh, oh, this is Mirza Sahib's, I have taken it from his books, that is, even what is in this book, its expansion is what I have done further. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there any other like that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Countless. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So will you tell one or two? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will tell all day tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, tell one more which Mirza Sahib did, which no one had done before, that this treasure belongs to them... HAIRAVAL ASSEIRELI OF PAKISTAN (21st August, 1974 ...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad Mirza Sahib told me about a very thick, long article. He gave one interpretation of Surah Fatiha, more than one interpretation, and in my estimation, 70 percent of that interpretation is new. We have done it ourselves, and the real glory in it, of the Holy Quran, is that you, to them, once a pastor objected that when, according to Muslims, the Torah is the word of God and God's book, such a thick book is the Torah, then what need do you or the world have for the Holy Quran, which is smaller than it? This objection was raised. In response, the rest of the Ahmadiyya community wrote this to them. This is in a written form which now says: "You people are talking about why there was a need for the Holy Quran after the Torah, and I tell you that the first Surah of the Holy Quran, Surah Fatiha, which consists of all the verses and is a short Surah, the spiritual treasures found within it, if they are found in your nearly seventy books, in such a thick Torah, even just as many as Surah Fatiha, then we will think that you also have something." And this was a challenge. And this challenge in '67 I repeated in Denmark, and gave it to them in writing. And I said that the rest of the Ahmadiyya community had passed away and I am their successor. Now this is my responsibility which I accept. It was seventy, eighty years, I don't remember the date exactly, when this challenge was given. Anyway, a long time has passed, it was repeated and kept being repeated, and the Christian people who were there did not come to it. That whole interpretation, I told you that I, yesterday, if you permit, I can present it before you, there is one in it. Mr. Keechi Bakhtiar No, I just say that first thirteen hundred years Muslims have........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it contains articles that are not in the previous books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has no one ever given them before? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is a lot of material, some of it has appeared before. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then you just stated that I had asked this question once before, but it was in the second part. That times are changing, new interpretations etc., interpretation, are needed to solve new problems, did Mirza Sahib do this interpretation? Is this interpretation limited to only one prophet, or can other people also do it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Allah Almighty has given all pious servants according to their own needs, and by "their own" I mean within the Ummah of Muhammad, according to the needs of that time and place, an immense amount, that is, a sea of treasure with no shores, the Holy Quran, the word of God Almighty, like the act of God Almighty, has vastness within it. Everyone continues to take their share according to their ability and according to their need... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can others also do it? It is not necessary... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They kept doing it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, is it not necessary that only a prophet can do interpretation, other Muslims, the pious, saints... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Saints, after learning from Allah Almighty, hundreds, thousands, perhaps millions, have become capable of it at this time, in our history, who have done new interpretations. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 21, 1974] Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And can they do it in the future as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And will continue to do so in the future. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can do so in the future... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, can do so in the future. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, it doesn't require the coming of a prophet for that, does it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It required the coming of the person upon whose arrival Muhammad (peace be upon him) had placed a seal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That, Mirza Sahib! I have already asked. You said that, well, no one else will come after him, Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I did not say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not talking about a hypothetical world. According to the interpretation of our guidance, the Holy Quran... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I said that, that's right. Now you have said the correct thing on my behalf. I said to leave the hypothetical possibility. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, we leave that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is left. I said that in the Ummah of Muhammad, only that prophet can come of whom the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has given glad tidings, and in our knowledge, there is glad tiding of only one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No one came before him, before Mirza Sahib, and will someone come after? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: Only one prophecy is in our knowledge. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: Yes, the prophecy that no one else can come? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: There is no prophecy of anyone else in our knowledge. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: And that seal was used only once, just once? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: In this matter. But I have said that millions of people have been born who, benefiting from the blessings of Muhammad, continue to do the work of reforming the world, for the betterment of the world, for the reformation of the world. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: No, according to your interpretation of "Khatme Nabuwwat," I am saying. MIRZA NASIR AHMED: According to the interpretation of "Khatme Nabuwwat," millions are born. MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: More prophets too? MIRZA NASIR AHMED: Not prophets... MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: I am talking about prophets. MIRZA NASIR AHMED: Those who receive from the blessings of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). MR. YAHYA BAKHTIAR: No, that is fine, saints can also come, but the prophets, I am asking you... so that there is no confusion again, a matter was cleared with great difficulty... MIRZA NASIR AHMED: No, it is still clear. It is just that I say that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) only gave the news of the coming of one, in our knowledge. This is my answer, note this down. 1064 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's why I submitted that besides Mirza Sahib, there is no one else... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I have said is enough. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No one else will come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I have said is enough. The answers I have given, in my opinion, are enough. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, so I am asking the same question, Mirza Sahib! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have already answered that according to our knowledge, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not give news of anyone else coming. This is my answer. That's the end of the matter. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Besides Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib. Here, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad Sahib says at page 10: "We hold the belief that this succession of Prophets will continue in the future as it has done in the past for reason repudiates any permanent cessation of it........" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a possibility debate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, then you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have to, yes, I have to do its interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "If mankind is to continue to pass through ages of spiritual darkness, ages in which men will wander away from their Maker........." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This very long discussion has already taken place. It would be better if there were other questions. And… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said, Mirza Sahib! That thousands will not come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said "Possible," but here they say: "We hold the belief". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a question of faith, belief. Possible is another thing. According to the Quran, in the light of which, I understand that they do not say that God can destroy the whole world, so after that, the question of interpretation does not arise. It is possible that this earth itself will end, and then the interpretation of the Quran will also end. He is the Lord of the Worlds. There are many other worlds. That matter, I cannot talk about the possible. It is within God's power to abrogate the Quran and bring a new Sharia. That is a possible thing. But what is happening is according to the interpretation of God's current law. You said that there is only one glad tiding and here they are saying that more will come, that's why I am saying that if you mean something else: "We hold the belief that this succession of Prophets will continue in the future as it has done in the past for reason repudiates any permanent cessation of it. If mankind is to continue to pass through ages of spiritual darkness, ages NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 21, 1974 in which men will wander away from their Maker if, from time to time, men are to be liable to go astray from the right path and to grope in the thick darkness of doubt and despair in their efforts to regain it; if they are to continue their search for light in all such ages and times, it is impossible to believe that divine torch-bearers and guides, should cease to appear; for it is inconsistent with, Rahmaniyat, the mercy of God, that he should permit the ill but should not provide the remedy, that He should create the yearning but should withdraw the means of satisfying it." Then he says how this Prophet came......... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I will have to look at that and tell you tomorrow because then the debate would start. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I have only read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is in English, and it is very good English because Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib translated it. On that, another matter... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Its Urdu version is also available. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, no, I mean, the translation that is... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Maybe more light is available there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tuned it into a very good English. Chaudhry Sahib has done it. I had read it somewhere. Sir Mirza! There was a question, which I do not want to ask at the moment, but in my opinion, since it is a very long and complicated question... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1067 I have it, and I want it to take as little time as possible, so it will be better. What is your belief regarding Jihad? Please explain it briefly, instead of me asking you, "Has Jihad by the sword been abrogated?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I will explain it in one sentence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because they say that where the sword has been abrogated, this happened. Your viewpoint is… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our belief is that Jihad becomes obligatory with its conditions. The conditions of Jihad that have appeared earlier in our literature, that the scholars have discussed, if those conditions are present, then Jihad is obligatory. And if those conditions are not present, then Jihad is not permissible at all. And this sentence is enough for me to explain. We believe that Jihad, which is a great book in its own right in the Holy Quran, and the sayings of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)... No person in the world can abrogate it, can postpone it, by saying that the conditions of Jihad are not found today or in this era, therefore there will be no Jihad. And for this reason, the scholars of the Ummah have interpreted the hadith of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that comes regarding Jihad: That the conditions of Jihad in the time of the Mahdi will not be fulfilled. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, in the time of the British, did you believe that it was postponed, not abrogated…? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. 1068 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 121st August. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that's what it means, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely that's what it means. And the answer is in the memorandum... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm talking about... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The answer is there. If you repeat the question, you yourself gave me permission to repeat the answer as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that which is on record, as a statement, there is such a thing as evidence... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That which is on record, as a question... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which question have I repeated, Mr. Mirza? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This one about Jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I'm asking you about Jihad for the first time. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, all of it has come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I have asked this question for the first time now. I said that I was coming to it later. I have asked this question for the first time. You can point out that you have already answered on such and such pages. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it's in the "memorandum." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you can definitely say that we have answered on page so-and-so and so-and-so, that will cover it. I will read it again, and there is no need for any parliamentary procedure. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1069 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, this "The reality of the accusation of denial of Jihad" is the title of the memorandum. This title started on page 115, and this article started on page 117, and it ended on page 146, and in this discussion, regarding the postponement of Jihad in that era, i.e., not being obligatory, due to the non-fulfillment of the conditions, the references we read from those elders who were not Ahmadi, are these. I will tell you the names: Maulana Syed Habib Sahib, editor of "Siyasat," Chaudhry Afzal Haq, thinker of "Israr," "Sadiq Al-Akhbar" is in Rewari, there is a reference to Mirza Hairat Dehlvi, and the newspaper "Wakeel" Amritsar, a reference to Abul Kalam Azad Sahib, and a reference to Hazrat Khawaja Ghulam Farid's Sajjada Nashin of Chachran Sharif. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right, Mirza Sahib! ... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And they expressed this opinion about that era, which was expressed by the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, and our Mujaddid of the last century, no, they objected to him that you are going there and fighting the Sikhs, and a non-Muslim Christian government is present here, leaving it. So he replied that Jihad is not permissible against this government. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I understand that, sir, I wanted to ask this question that in particular circumstances, there is a fight, like the one in 1857. On this, they said that this is not Jihad, this is wrong. This is about an incident, one is that during the British era... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am mentioning the British era. 1070 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [21st August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am doing Jihad, which is postponed... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am talking about that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, Mirza Sahib is saying that Jihad against all the British is postponed, in the past, present, and future. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, not about the future, until God Almighty tells them, they wouldn't say. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just clarifying that as long as they are saying... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As long as those circumstances remain. Look at this, listen to this, what Hazrat Syed Ahmad Sahib Barelvi says: "The English government denies Islam..." This is talking about the English government, right? "Does not inflict any oppression or transgression on Muslims, nor does it prevent them from religious duties and obligatory worship. We openly preach and promote in their country, and they never hinder or obstruct us, but if anyone commits any excess against us, they are ready to punish them. Our main task is to spread the Oneness of God and revive the traditions of the Chief of the Messengers, which we do in this country without any hindrance. Then why should we wage Jihad against the English government for any reason?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have read this, sir... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So this is different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, all that is just so you can read it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is common. And the real issue is this. This This issue applies to every era, right? The issue is, agreed upon. There may be slight differences in the conditions, that unless the conditions of Jihad are fulfilled Jihad is not obligatory, and when the conditions of Jihad are met, then refraining from Jihad is a sin. This is our issue. (At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Madam Deputy Speaker (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, you have clarified one thing. There is another point in this. One is that the conditions do not exist, therefore Jihad is not permissible. Secondly, the conditions exist are present, Jihad is permissible, but the method should not be of the sword but of the pen, is this also yours? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the question is that in Islamic literature and in the sayings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) three jihads are mentioned. One is called by our literature "Jihad Akbar" and its meaning is taken as: Jihad against one's own self, self-accountability, self criticism. For the sake of self-improvement, it is called "Jihad Akbar" in Islamic terminology. And one comes in Islamic and Quranic terminology "Jihad Kabir" and that is the name of preaching and propagation of the Holy Quran and Islam, and it has come in the Holy Quran: The work of spreading it in the world with the Holy Quran is called in Quranic terminology. "Jihad Kabir" is called. August 4, 1974 And a lesser jihad is the war of the sword, or now the conditions of war have changed, now it has started happening with guns and atom bombs, in any case, to protect human life with material means to be prepared to acquire, this is "lesser jihad." No: So what you have talked about now, the second, it is related to the greater jihad, from the lesser jihad There is a verse of the Holy Quran that take this Holy Quran and spread it in the world and this guidance And wage jihad to spread the Sharia, wage jihad of preaching. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is the sword which... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the Holy Quran... No, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I want clarification on the jihad of the sword. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is called the lesser jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning that which was, Mirza Sahib said that it was also during the British era repealed... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hazrat Mirza Sahib, the reformer before Hazrat Mirza Sahib: And the scholars of that time said this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because I am of Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have already said that it is our belief that if the conditions of jihad are not met, are found, then there will be no jihad... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is one thing... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE YADIAN URDU DESBORONATS A ANZES Mirza Nasir Ahmad And Hazrat Mirza Sahib said this - like the rest that the conditions for jihad do not exist at this time, we have religious freedom, and... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's clear, what you said. The second thing - if its conditions exist, then the method that is, is it of the sword or of the pen? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Where does this come from? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh, I explained this. When the conditions for jihad exist, the lesser jihad, then the lesser jihad will be waged, meaning the jihad of the sword. And when the conditions for the lesser jihad do not exist, then the lesser jihad will not be waged. That's the end of it here... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now, listen. The second chapter begins with the greater jihad, and that is the jihad of the pen, that is the jihad of the meanings and propagation of the Holy Quran. It has nothing to do with the lesser jihad. The Holy Quran calls it the "Greater Jihad." And when the lesser jihad... the issue is that even if the lesser jihad of the sword is postponed, due to the conditions not being met, even then, the greater jihad, which is a greater jihad, the jihad of the pen, the jihad of taking the Holy Quran and spreading it in the world, it's not like a person can stand up and say that because there is no jihad of the sword, therefore we will not do the jihad of preaching either. That would be wrong. Even if the conditions for the lesser jihad do not exist, the jihad number, the jihad of the pen, is still necessary. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: During the time of the British, the conditions for the greater jihad existed, but not for the lesser jihad? 1074 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (2nd August 1976 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: During the British era, according to the opinion of all at that time, the conditions for Jihad-e-Sagheer (smaller jihad) did not exist. But the conditions for Jihad-e-Kabir (greater jihad) remain in every era. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning if it is a country of Muslims, a government of Muslims, or even when there was British rule, Jihad-e-Kabir continues there as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To establish the Holy Quran, the Sunnah, and to strive for the reformation of the Ummah (Muslim community) living in this country, and to remain vigilant so that no doubt or heresy comes in between, this is Jihad-e-Kabir, and it continues. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I understand that. My impression is that Mirza Sahib substituted the sword with the pen. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no............. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This which you said... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that's not it. It was said that the conditions for the jihad of the pen were not present, but there was a particular need for Jihad-e-Kabir in that era, because other religions were attacking... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, I understand that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...Meaning it is very clearly stated that if the conditions are met, then Ahmadis will go and fight, joining with the other Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have many questions about this, sir. Let me look at one or two of them, so that we don't waste time... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, please give me a rest, thank you. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI (KOUP) DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are you Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said, you could give me some rest, thank you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, shall we take a five or ten-minute break? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I meant that this also happens, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then let's take a five or ten-minute break. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It has happened once at some point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, they said they will do it now, so that after this, we can sit for another half hour. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman, shall we have a fresh one for five or ten minutes? (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they said it yesterday. And there is a lot of pressure on me to ask this question first. On one hand, the honorable member is saying that ask all our questions, on the other hand, they are saying that a decision should be made quickly. Honorable Chairperson (Dr. Miss Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi): No, let's continue until ten o'clock today. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then let's take a break now, sir, let's take a break now. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let it run until ten, ten thirty. 1076 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (21st August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, certainly, now only ten fifteen minutes... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, let's take a fourteen-minute break. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We'll have a cup of tea, then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why yes, is it allowed, Chairman, Sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it allowed? Break for five or fifteen minutes. Madam Chairman: For ten minutes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Fifteen minutes. Then we will come back at 9.30. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 9.30? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 9.30 Madam Chairman: Okay. The Delegation is allowed to leave, and come back at 9.30. (The Delegation left the Chamber). Madam Chairman: I think the members may keep sitting. Otherwise, if you leave the Hall, we will not be able to come back and form the quorum. The Special Committee adjourned for tea break to meet at 9.30 p.m. [The Special Committee re-assembled after tea break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: The Delegation may be called. Up to 10.15, We will sit up to 10.15. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. 1077 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Mirza Sahib! Regarding Jihad, I have a feeling that I was not aware of some pages. I have retrieved the book. This is from "Tabligh-e-Risalat," Part Second, Volume 7, it is written here, on page. Volume is finished, it is on page 17. ****** "In my principles, beliefs, and instructions, there is no action of warmongering or corruption..." Up to this point, it is completely clear that warmongering and corruption are not good things. And I believe that as my followers increase, the those who believe in the concept of Jihad will decrease. Because accepting me as the Messiah and Mahdi of the age is a denial of the concept of Jihad." This needs clarification because on one hand, he says that warfare is fine. And later he says that: "I believe that as my followers increase, those who believe in the concept of Jihad will decrease. Because accepting me as the Messiah and Mahdi of the age is a denial of the concept of Jihad." So, on one hand, you said that because the circumstances are such that it is postponed. And from here, it appears that the truth has come and the Mahdi of the age has arrived, therefore there is no need for Jihad, if I have understood it correctly. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it's correct, but the issue is not resolved with just one reference. Other references also need to be examined. HALUNAL ASSAMALI UP PANDIAN August 121st, 1974 Mr. Yaki Bakhtiar Nahi, he is fine. I am saying that you, this that is there, if you could explain that a little bit. Mardan Nasir Ahmad Ji, there can be several explanations for this. One is that here, "Jihad" does not mean Sharia Islamic Jihad, but rather the incorrect conception of Jihad that " was prevalent at that time. And here it is stated that as I clarify this issue, as I go along, that according to Islam this is Jihad and your current understanding of Jihad is not correct, then the number of believers in the existing incorrect conception will decrease as the number of others increases. And secondly, regarding the conditions, that will also come along with it, that if certainty is the condition of Jihad in the eyes of the people. This could also be something like that. Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) has written with great clarity that whenever the conditions for Jihad exist, one must fight. This is the duty of a Muslim Ahmadi. This is a common issue for all sects, it's not separate. For example, I will read out a small reference in comparison to this, combining both. It is in Noor-ul-Haq, Part II: Rather, He only commands to fight against those who prevent God Almighty's servants from believing and prevent them from adhering to God Almighty's commands and worshipping Him, and He commands to fight against those who fight Muslims for no reason and expel believers from their homes and homelands and openly include the creation of Allah in their religion and want to destroy the religion of Islam and convert people to Islam CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1079 they stop it from happening. These are the people upon whom is the wrath of God Almighty, and it is obligatory upon the believers to fight them if they do not desist." So here, along with the fulfillment of these conditions of Jihad, a decree of the obligation of Jihad is given. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no, Mirza Sahib! The position I wanted to clarify, one is that you said that Jihad has certain conditions, if those conditions are met then Jihad becomes obligatory, otherwise it is permissible. Then another question arises with it that since he is the Messiah Promised, Mahdi, the Last of the Age, because of his coming, Jihad is completely finished, now there is no question arises whether the conditions exist or not, I am clarifying the position at the moment... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, this is not a problem. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not the position? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is not the position, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As it was written earlier in the hadiths that when the Messiah comes, then fighting for religion will be forbidden... $6 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No conditions will be fulfilled and... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: that fighting for religion has been forbidden from today. So this has not been postponed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is written to postpone it in another place. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this for both... S AS A Aa rumpangrasakak Set KOMMULT Uncle Maguks, 1779 He is in Urdu poems that Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He postponed it for religion. Postponing religious wars means only one thing to me, in principle, that all the quotes By keeping them in front, we can reach the right conclusion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! That's why I am requesting you That what is your own concept. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My concept is that if the conditions are met, then Jihad for every believer To do with the sword... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understood that. Because I had references but not the book That's why I asked them to give it to me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In this light, it will be interpreted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because here in such clear words he says that because The Messiah is present, Jihad is the one who fights for religion, so it is clear, Jihad and War is another thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, he will postpone the religious wars, that's another place. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, we call Jihad the one who fights for religion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the fight of religion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is saying that fighting for religion is forbidden from today. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Conditions not met. Mr. Kitty Bakhtiar: No, that... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1081 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is written in another place. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am talking about here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I mean it has been postponed in another place. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here are reasons, there, in the presence of circumstances and conditions, no. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here are reasons. Okay, if you allow me, when your question ends, I will tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me read this whole thing. The whole paragraph starts from here, which I don't quite understand. "...that clock which will be installed in some part of the minaret wall. Underneath it, the reality is hidden that all people should recognize their time, that is, understand that the time for the opening of the gates of heaven has come. From now on, earthly jihad has been abolished, wars have ended, as it was written in the hadiths before that when the Messiah comes, fighting for religion will be forbidden. So from today, fighting for religion is forbidden. After this, whoever raises a sword for religion, keeps the name of a worshiper, and kills infidels, is disobedient to God and His Messenger. Open Sahih Bukhari and read the hadith that is in favor of the Promised Messiah." So here, what Mirza Sahib is saying, as far as I could understand, because he is the Messiah, the Promised Messiah, he has come, therefore, this is the authority of the books, the hadiths, that when he comes, fighting for religion will be forbidden. So it is not a postpone for the circumstances. You should say for this. 1084 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 21, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, is your question finished? My turn? Then please sit down, maybe I can do justice. In this passage that you just read, from the last of its sentences, it is evident that whatever subject has been described is an explanation of the hadiths. So keep the hadiths in mind, then... Only then will you know whether the explanation is correct or not. So if you allow me, tomorrow I will state the hadiths here in front of you... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am saying that in the hadiths, it is indeed that when the truth comes, jihad will become forbidden after that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not that. Okay, I will explain it now then. Yes, I will explain it now. In the hadith, it is that at the time of the coming of the Mahdi and the Messiah, the conditions of jihad will not exist, and at that time, the wars of Islam will be fought in the form of Jihad Kabir, not in the form of Jihad Saghir. It will be a time of peace. All those conditions that compel religiously, are stopped, that time will not be there. And its first application is only with the life of the Promised Mahdi. And in your life, and even here in India, no one has announced the fulfillment of the conditions of jihad. The explanation that we give of what comes in the hadiths, I think, and in my mind, even the elders before me used to do the same, that those hadiths in which it is mentioned that at the time of the coming of the Mahdi and the Messiah: The words are clear that he will abolish war, 'will put it down, will cancel it', it is not there, meaning he will postpone it, this is an Arabic idiom. Firstly, the conditions of jihad are not fulfilled in the life of the Mahdi. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1083 Therefore, Meaning, according to my own belief, I am talking about myself, And in his life, there was no clash that a fatwa was issued, by the nation, Or any prophecy came true, and religious elders went to the battlefield for Jihad, and The Ahmadiyya community was left behind. Now this has become history. In 1908, the Ahmadiyya series had been going on for twenty years. From your claim to your death, according to the hadiths, it was a time of peace, not war, and a time of Greater Jihad, not Lesser Jihad. And I just read a reference to it. There would be ten or fifteen references that shed light on it. And during this period , I have a point. I have limited the time from the claim to your death, the scholars of India did not issue a fatwa that it was a time of Jihad, and no groups of scholars in India joined others and went to the battlefield for Jihad, but everyone called it a time of peace, a time of peace. And as far as the British Empire is concerned, you were told in a revelation that after 8 years, they will have influence for 8 years, after which the British Empire will begin to decline, the decline will begin. And the beginning of this decline began with the death of Queen Victoria. That is, those eight years have been completed, according to the revelation, and where is that British Empire today, the one on which the sun never set? Today, it is the British Empire that is wandering around the world looking for rays of sunshine. So my point is that from your claim to your death, the scholars never … Issued a fatwa of Jihad in India, nor did the scholars, like our old elders, used to go to the battlefield for Jihad, gathering together to fight. 1084 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 21st August, 1974 Because that, The time after that is coming. I will go ahead. It is also possible that the old questions that are going on for fifty years, or thirty years. Anyway, there was a war. According to us, this war that was fought was a war of the world, not a war of Muslim governments, but Muslims in crores were affected by it. At that time, one thing came before us and that was that our Khalifa of Muslims. That is, it is true, today I admit that since, according to us, the Mahdi had come, therefore, we do not consider him "Khalifa of Muslims," but Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, whose number was very small at that time, besides that, all the Muslims of the world called the Ottoman Caliphate of Turkey as Khalifa of Muslims, and they were of the Caliphate. And in our own India, the Khilafat Movement went on. They got involved in this war. Therefore, they supported the front against the Allies. At that time, there was a lot of pressure on the Sharif of Mecca from all over the world that the Khalifa of Muslims is fighting against the British and you declare it Jihad "Holy War," this is its translation, I don't know whether it is correct or wrong, anyway, I am related to Jihad. So they said declare it Jihad, declare it Holy War. The Sharif of Mecca at that time, I am talking about the First World War, was in a dilemma for them. If he declares it Jihad, declares it Holy War, then the British, from whom he was taking money and guns and ammunition to establish his government, would be angry and his money would also be stopped and his stipend would also be stopped and the supply of guns would also be stopped. LRUS) EXAMINATION UF 109 YAVANI SIRAJUT DELEGATION 1083 It was, and if they did not declare it a Jihad, then all the Muslims of the world would be angry. There was great pressure. I told them that a Khilafat Movement also started here, so seeing this dilemma at that time, he sent a confidant to Ibn Saud. This is a page of history, we have proof in books, and Ibn Saud, whoever was from his family, at that time the ruler of Najd, these are for Jihad, he was from Najd, he said to the confidant: "Go and speak clearly. If I declare this a Jihad, the war of the Caliph of Muslims is correct, then people like me will also be killed and my supply of arms will also be stopped. And if I do not declare it a Jihad, then Muslims will be after me, they will boycott my coins on Hajj, etc., etc. I am in great trouble. Tell me, what is your advice?" At that time, Ibn Saud's family was also taking money and guns from the British. The dilemma and trouble they were in, Ibn Saud's family in Najd was in the same dilemma and trouble. So, after consulting with this confidant, he sent a message to Sharif of Mecca, "Do not declare it a Jihad at all, and I am with you." And at that time, he issued this fatwa against Jihad in this war because history records that the total annual income of Najd, Ibn Saud's family, from the government was one hundred thousand pounds sterling, and the British gave them five thousand, and seven thousand pounds sterling monthly, along with gold coins, which means that sixty percent of their total income, and small Bren guns, they had a small army and three thousand guns. At one time 1086 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 121st August, 1974 It is mentioned in the books. At that time, since this was not a war, I mean it was a world war, many would object to why it was not declared a Jihad, even though some Muslims were fighting against the British. It is quite clear that it was a world war; one section, one group, one part of the Muslims was fighting alongside the British against others, and one part was fighting alongside others against the British. Thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands, of troops went there from our India. And on top of that, this little bit that I have spoken about, I have references for them. And one of their officers was related to the Viceroy of India at that time, S. A. ... Ha Bucken, this is a letter from him, a photocopy of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! The thing is, I don't understand if you think that it was not a Jihad, it was just a fight, or it was a Jihad and they took a bribe and said it was not a Jihad? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our opinion, it was not a Jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If it was not in your opinion, then there is no question of these things. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Alright, very well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, because there are two points of view. One says that it was not a Jihad... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They object to us, that's why I thought maybe it was. But if it is not, then okay, I apologize. I have wasted the House's time. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you see, the only question I have before me is about Jihad. You have stated that you believe that when the conditions are met, it is obligatory, otherwise it is not permissible. Then another issue arises that in the time of the Promised Messiah, when he returns, it is: It is written in the Hadith that when the Messiah comes, fighting for the sake of religion will be forbidden. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (Arabic) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Today, fighting for the sake of religion has been forbidden." This has nothing to do with the conditions; it has nothing to do with the conditions. You understand because the Messiah has come... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, the Hadith is the saying of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, that's what I am saying, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what I mean is that besides this meaning of this Hadith, there can be no other meaning that for a period of time in the Messiah's era, the conditions for Jihad will not be met. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning it has become forbidden, because of that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That the Messiah has come? 1088 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 12, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is in the Hadith that upon the arrival of the Messiah, that is, in that era, the conditions for Jihad will not be fully met. And to fight by calling it "Jihad" despite the conditions for Jihad not being met is wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, sir, here Mirza Sahib, who called himself the Mahdi, he says that he has come. In that era, at the same time, a Mahdi also came in Sudan and he said that it is Jihad. You say that no one did it in that era. It wouldn't have happened in India... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What thing? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even in India, you say... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where did the Mahdi come? In Sudan? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In Sudan. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In Sudan. The era of the Sudanese Mahdi and the era of the present Messiah are exactly the same. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That fighting of theirs happened somewhat later, but the era is contemporary. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A part, completely the beginning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning a little bit. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the thing is that here the discussion is about the Silsila or the Sudanese Mahdi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here, the discussion is about Hadith Sharif... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in Hadith Sharif, it says that the Mahdi will come, the Promised Messiah will come, and after that, it is forbidden. No question arises about conditions, whether there are conditions or not. This is what I have understood from it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, does the Hadith say that one command of the Sharia of Muhammad will remain abrogated from that time until the Day of Judgment? I do not understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What I have understood here is that if you say that as long as Mirza Sahib was alive, it became forbidden for him, then I can understand that he came, has passed away, and therefore it has resumed again. Or it is that when he came, it is forever... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, "not forever" absolutely. Hazrat Hani, referring to the exalted Ahmadiyya سلسلہ (religious order/movement). I have just read a reference. I have explained it fully. I have given my answer from my side, that's all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is what I am saying to you: "When the Messiah comes, the era of jihadi battles will end. So, the Messiah has come and this is who is speaking to you." A question was asked of me here: Did the conditions for Jihad end as soon as Mirza Sahib came? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I cannot give a deadline, but there were no conditions in your time. 1090 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [21st August, 1974 Mr., meaning Bakhtiar, no, this, I am saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: See, look, there is another reference that as long as these conditions remain, it will remain closed, and until God Almighty creates another situation in the world manifests, and then Chahar Jo happens. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no, you said, I said, that is in the "memorandum." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, I say, that is not in the memorandum that I was reading out to you, because its clarification becomes necessary. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because we were giving all the references... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is, I have been told to ask you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right, ask. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then, sir, two more questions have been asked of me: Did Shah Abdul Aziz Sahib Dehlavi not declare India as Dar-ul-Harb? There is another question, at the same time: In the Jihad that the British called the Wahabi Revolt, were the scholars involved or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is this? Is this historical? Very interesting question: The Jihad which... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The British called the Wahabi Revolt - Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What time period are we talking about? CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1091 Wahabis were fighting against Turks all the time with money and........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar says that 1864 Mirza Nasir Ahmed is here? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1864. They say that it is about that time, it continued till the end. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Meaning from then on? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The same thing that you say, that they took a bribe. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That is what they are talking about. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you are saying that it was not jihad, they took a bribe. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I am saying that regarding that time, sometimes we object after the Promised Messiah, peace be upon him. But our Saudi family, their politics were going through different phases. I am not objecting to them. In our opinion, it was not jihad at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they say that the British called the war in India the "Wahati Revolt". I will clarify that from them and then ask you. Until the position is clear... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, in the war in India, Ibn Saud was supporting them, meaning in the last First World War... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let's talk about before that, we are not talking about the First World War. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 21, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay! This is before the First World War. What time period are we talking about? I said that the period... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will verify the dates, etc., so that there is no doubt about it. Mr. Chairman: There were two questions: one has been answered, the other has been deferred. And the first reply has come. The Attorney-General put two supplementaries, what was the other? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The other question was: Did Shah Abdul Aziz Dehlavi declare India as Darul Harb or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it depends on whether there is a reference or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if you say that he did not say it, or you do not know... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then that task will remain incomplete. We should be told whether Shah Abdul Aziz Sahib declared it or not, then I can answer. But to ask, "Did so-and-so say this or not?" This is not the question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, take it like this: "Did Shah Abdul Aziz Sahib declare India as Darul Harb or not?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the reference for this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is none. That is why I am saying that I have stopped his references. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's fine... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We are asking you a question, you can say, "I don't know about this" or "he said it or he didn't say it." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I say that this is the kind of question that does not need to be answered. Mr. Chairman, at what time will this be finished? Mr. Chairman: We will make it 10:15. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 10:15? Mr. Chairman: Only about 7 minutes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, good. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, there is another question, I will read out the reference to you, that the intensity of Jihad, meaning religious wars, was gradually reduced by God Almighty. At the time of Hazrat Musa, the intensity was such that even believing could not save one from being killed, and even infants were killed. Then, at the time of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), the killing of children, the elderly, and women was forbidden. Then, for some nations, instead of faith, only paying Jizya was accepted as salvation from accountability. And then, at the time of the Promised Messiah, the order of Jihad was completely suspended. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning, should I answer it now? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Here, "mansookh" means "postponement," as proven by other references. 1334 - Quaid-e-Azam WE WANT AN [August 21, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's enough. The term "completely suspended" means postponed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Suspended" itself means postponed. I thought it meant canceled. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Suspended means put off for a while. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I'll read it so it doesn't happen again: "In the time of the Promised Messiah, the order of Jihad was completely suspended." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it was suspended. "Suspended" also means postponement, to put a pause. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There's more ahead: "From today, human Jihad, which is done with the sword, has been stopped by the command of God." It's not "suspended," the word is "stopped," "stopped." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maybe it was stopped because the conditions were not met. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let me read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, read it, please read it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza Sahib! I know what he will say in response (Masih). "From today, human Jihad, which is done with the sword, has been stopped by the command of God." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I haven't heard this sentence, "From today, human Jihad?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Human Jihad." CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1095 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Human?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There may be a printing error. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they will see. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "From today, human Jihad which is done with the sword..." Please check the print, maybe it is not correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, they will see, maybe that's it. Anyway, "Banned" is the original word, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Banned by the command of God. Now after this, whoever raises a sword against an infidel and calls himself Ghazi, disobeys God and the Messenger (PBUH), who said thirteen hundred years ago that with the advent of the Messiah, all sword jihads will end. So now after my appearance, there is no jihad of swords. From our side, a white flag of peace and reconciliation has been raised." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Not my order, not my disobedience, it is of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)." This is the same adjournment one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it is not, here it is "Banned", that's why I am saying... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, this, I mean this, according to the saying of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When will this be right, will Jihad be completely finished? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When morning comes, the conditions for Jihad will not be present. And when it is tranquil, that same Mahdi will say that when the conditions are met, wage Jihad, it is the duty of every believer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then there in Tuhfa Golarviya, it is also on page 30 that: "From today onwards, it is forbidden for Muslims to fight for the sake of religion." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "From today onwards." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why, step by step... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This was postponed, then completely stopped, then "closed" then "forbidden," and you say that the meaning of all is "postponed"... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The conditions for Jihad. When the conditions for Jihad are not there... This Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here they are saying "from today onwards!" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, yes, yes, at the time of the absence of the conditions for Jihad, Jihad is forbidden, not forever. Jihad is forbidden forever at the time of the absence of the conditions for Jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! That is such an established position... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is our position. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That even in the time of the Holy Prophet, if the conditions are not there, then no... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1097 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely, because the Hadith says this… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But because of the Promised Messiah, some other change has also come, hasn't it? That when he came, then as it became like that, this… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the time of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), let me clarify, in the time of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), the command was that if the conditions for Jihad are met, then Jihad should be done. And in the time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), the conditions for Jihad were met, and Jihad was done. And in the time of the Mahdi also, the same command is that if the conditions for Jihad are met, then Jihad should be done. If the conditions for Jihad were not met, then Jihad was forbidden until the conditions for Jihad are fulfilled. In the Meccan life of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), which is longer than the Medinan life, the conditions for Jihad were not met and Jihad was not done for 13 years. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then the point becomes clear, doesn't it, sir? No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That Jihad is conditional, it has no connection with the coming of the Messiah? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The coming of the Messiah is only related to the extent that a prediction was made, in the Hadith, that in his time the conditions for Jihad will not be met. That is the only connection, and no other. As far as the issue of Jihad itself is concerned, it has no connection with the Messiah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning when his life is over, then it will start again? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not immediately... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... This was said. No, you will understand now. It was said that during the life of the Messiah, during the life of the Mahdi, the conditions for Jihad will not be fulfilled. And it was not said that with the death of the Messiah, the conditions for Jihad will be fulfilled. A specific time has been given for a specific piece of news. After that, whether it is after ten years or fifty years, whenever the conditions for Jihad are fulfilled, Jihad is obligatory for every believer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After the coming of the Messiah, then, Mirza Sahib! After that, then...after that, then there will be no conditions for Jihad, or Jihad will end, because after that there is no question of disputes, then it is the Day of Judgment and whatever will happen, will life continue then? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Day of Judgment did not come with the life of the Messiah, the Day of Judgment did not come with the end of the life of the Messiah, but 66 years have passed since then. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking this, the Messiah who is promised comes, the Mahdi, the one at the end of time, which means the last era? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, the last era. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So we are passing through the last era? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that, then there is no question of war. There will be no conflict... Mirza Nasir Ahmad Why? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Peace has come, there will be no condition for Jihad. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, after this, it is possible that the conditions will be fulfilled. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, after their death, then it is possible? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: After death, it is possible that the conditions will be fulfilled. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I wanted to ask the same thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, then I have just read the reference, you have said that it will be the duty of every believer to perform Jihad. Mr. Chairman: Now we take it to tomorrow or now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, Sir. There are three, four more questions. Mr. Chairman: Yes, tomorrow. The Delegation is permitted to leave; tomorrow at 10.00 a.m. A The honourable members may please keep sitting for 10 a.m. in the morning. thing? Ten in the morning, ten in the morning. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Any member who would like to say some Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Yes, "Adjournment should be done". Mr. Chairman: Yes? 1100 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (21st August, 1974) Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Now, "adjournment should happen." On one condition only... Mr. Chairman: "Adjournment?" Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: Sir! What is its meaning? What happened to everything? Mr. Chairman: ........On one condition... Yes, the first bell will start tomorrow morning at half-past nine, and you come at ten o'clock. If you speak for half an hour, then... On one condition, otherwise come. Tomorrow, sharp at 10.00 a.m. Thank you very much. The Special Committee adjourned to meet at ten of the clock, in the morning on Thursday, the 22nd August, 1974. PCPP-1096(10) NA-15-2-2011-450. THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Thursday, August 22, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-27) CONTENTS 1. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation... Pages 1104-1150 2. Review of progress of the Cross-examination. 1151 3. Urgency of the Cross-examination.. 1151-1152 4. Reading of Ayat or Ahadith in the Cross-examination 1153 5. Procedure of the Cross-examination 1153-1156 6. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation. 1156-1211 7. Statement Re: Tarbela Mishap 1211-1214 8. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation Continued 1214-1239 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD No. 9 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Thursday, August 22, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-27) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Thursday, the 22nd August, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at ten of the clock, in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN Mr. Chairman: They may be called. I will request the honourable members to be attentive. The Delegation is coming. (Interruption) (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: They are just getting properly dressed. (Pause) Mr. Chairman: The honourable members can shift to that side: So we start with the proceedings. Mr. Attorney General. 1103 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney General of Pakistan): Mirza Sahib, yesterday you were saying that this Jihad is postponed or annulled for the time of the Mahdi. Are you fixing his period? Mirza Nasir Ahmad (Witness Head of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, Rabwah): No, that's right, you can talk, then from all of them... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And after that, after his death, Jihad can happen again, you are saying this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. It can happen, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said it depends on the circumstances, if the conditions come again, then Jihad can happen again, but only these conditions will not be fulfilled in Mirza Sahib's lifetime? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The conditions will not be fulfilled. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The conditions will not be fulfilled, and there it is suspended, should I understand it as postponed or annulled? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In his lifetime? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The word "Haram" has also been used? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning "Haram" in the sense that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If there are no conditions. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If there are no conditions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And there won't be. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If there are no conditions and Jihad is waged, then it is a forbidden act. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is forbidden, so it is forbidden in their lifetime because there will be no conditions, and cannot be? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not at the time of birth in their claim. In the time between the claim of Messiahship and death. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This will be a limited period? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This also reminds me of a question, let me ask you here, when did Mirza Sahib claim Messiahship? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In 1891. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1891? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Eighteen ninety-one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And before that, did he make any claims, a claim of being divinely inspired, a Muhaddith? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before that, two years before, eighteen eighty-nine is the year of allegiance, meaning when the community was formed, but at that time there was no claim, and the purpose of the allegiance was that "I want people to become true and devout Muslims by associating with me, and that they may be used to serve Islam." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: On what date did you say that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was an Ummi prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This Messiahship, there is also a saying of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, regarding it, that he will be an Ummi prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying, Mr. Mirza, when did you first say that "I am an Ummi prophet"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In 1891. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In 1891, both things... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I said, it is inferred from that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So from then until his death in 1908... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In this period, according to your point of view, were the conditions for Jihad not possible? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The conditions were not possible, nor did they exist in India. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They did not exist? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they did not exist in the rest of the world either? Only in today's world... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: For the rest of the world, we will decide after looking at the history of the world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mentioned the same thing yesterday, Mr. Mirza! That another person claimed that he was the Mahdi. He also announced Jihad. Now I am saying that this is in the same period. 1107 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I say it is not in this period. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just fine, that is a historical fact. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that is a historical fact. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that is your opinion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, someone told you yesterday, well, it is difficult for us, it is difficult for you too, there is no time frame for the Sudanese Mahdi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I said. You said that maybe their period is a little contemporary. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Neither can I say it definitely, nor did you say it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said that the period may be a little contemporary. Could the period be when he had not made the claim? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And it is possible that it is after his death? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, but it is possible that the claim was made exactly in this period. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, maybe not at all. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I wanted to become a student and gain knowledge. If you know of any, please tell me too. 1108 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 22nd August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have learned a lot, I did not know anything about this. So, Mr. Mirza Sahib! then does that mean that these are about the conditions of Jihad? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Take out the conditions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After the death of Mr. Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: May be, and then whatever the conditions are, we are still talking philosophically, so we should also see what the fatwa of our other brothers is regarding the conditions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, there is no, as far as I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will tell you in a minute, not long, in a minute. This is the fatwa of Ahl-e-Hadith, there may be differences among themselves. I have just taken one as an example. They say that there are four conditions. First, that the Ummah of Muslims... The first condition is that the Ummah of Muslims should have a supreme Imam. This is a condition of Jihad, that the Muslim Ummah should have a Caliph whom all the Muslims of the world recognize as their Imam. This is the first condition. The second condition is that whatever kind of war it is, suitable weapons should be available and there. This condition is in "Fatawa Naziria". For example, in today's nuclear wars, there should be nuclear weapons, according to this fatwa. The means of fighting, such as weapons, etc., should be available. I am taking one sentence at a time. If it is not understood, I will do it. Secondly, there should be a base for Islamic religious Jihad, a religious country from where the entire Jihad of the world can be controlled, supplies can be provided, weapons can be provided, and men can be provided. This is the third condition: having a base. And the fourth condition is that the army of Muslims should be so large that it can compete with the infidels, i.e. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1109 not less than half the army of the infidels. According to the Ahl-e-Hadith, this is the fourth condition of Jihad in "Fatawa Nazeeria," Volume III. For example, let me clarify it with an example. If an army of one million from America attacks a Muslim country, then according to "Fatawa Nazeeria," it is necessary for the Muslims to also have an army of ten million." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning one against two? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, one against two. Further on, they have deduced from the Holy Quran in their own way, which I have briefly mentioned. This was necessary because when we talk about Jihad, its tools, and its conditions, we have our own set of conditions in mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, aren't these conditions coming down since the time of the Holy Prophet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These conditions? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not specifying them, the conditions of Jihad. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The conditions that have been around since the time of the Holy Prophet by the name of Jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those are from that time. Has there been no change in them since that time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mirza Sahib did not change any of the conditions that are coming down since the time of the Holy Prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Except that one tradition says that when the Mahdi comes, Jihad will end? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Taqqa al-Harb" (war will cease), you said that it is in the Hadith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying the same thing. 1110 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: that the conditions for Jihad will not be met in the life of the Mahdi, and for this reason, there will be no religious war. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It will not happen. Can it happen after that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It can happen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So as far as the Ahmadiyya sect or community is concerned, do those sayings of Mirza Sahib, that "war is forbidden," Jihad is forbidden, do they not apply to you yet? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is possible that in our lives, or in the lives of our children, or in the lives of the children of those children, or in any future generation that is attributed to the Ahmadiyya Community and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, the conditions for Jihad will be met, and at that time they will join the religious Jihad together with all the Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I wanted to ask, Mirza Sahib! Are these directives of Mirza Sahib addressing their community or sect or Ahmadis, maybe addressing all Muslims. But we understand that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right, to themselves, then it is correct. (At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the chair which was occupied by Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is instructing them, he is giving them these instructions, he is giving them directions that this is postponed or revoked or forbidden for you? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So this was until 1908, after that it is not forbidden for you, if circumstances arise? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Instead of me answering, I will read out what the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement has written about it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And this will take two or four minutes, please be seated: In this era, Jihad has taken on a spiritual form, meaning Jihad Saghir has transformed into Jihad Kabir... After that, your last sentence is: As long as this Jihad exists, may God Almighty manifest another form in the world, and this is an Arabic passage in the supplement of Tohfa Golڑviہ, it is very clear. "There is no doubt that the conditions of Jihad, the existence of Jihad, in this era and in these countries, are non-existent." Fa Al-youm... Therefore, because the conditions of Jihad are non-existent, therefore: "It is forbidden for Muslims to wage religious war, Jihad." What I told you, in the life of the Holy Prophet and the Holy Prophet said that at the time of the descent of the Messiah, the conditions of Jihad will not be found. This is a time in which no government oppresses Muslims because they are Muslims. There were very cruel governments, but this is a time when there is no country in which a Muslim is oppressed because of his Islam. Nor is there any ruler who, because of Islam, which is his religion, is issuing orders against him. For this reason, God has given a different color to His command in this era due to the non-fulfillment of the conditions. This passage is very clear in this era ________ Hazrat Bani Silsila Ahmadiyya then writes in a poem about this era: Syed Konain Mustafa has said Jesus Christ himself will postpone the places." Such is the word "haram" in the first, and he is telling us the meaning of "haram" very clearly. Then you write in another book of yours: Sahih Bukhari's. Rather, it is God's will. Think of this hadith of Sahih Bukhari where the Messiah is described: That is, when the Messiah comes, he will end the religious wars. So I command those who are in my army to retreat from the place of these thoughts, purify their hearts, develop their human minds, and be compassionate. is not sympathetic, spread peace on earth so that their religion will spread. And don't be surprised at how this will happen. Because as God without the mediation of ordinary causes... He has given the example. Here is your book on Jihad: "There is a clear command in the Quran not to raise the sword to spread religion, but to present the inherent qualities of religion. Attract people with good examples and do not think that the order of the sword was given in Islam in the beginning. Because that sword was not drawn to spread religion. Rather, it was drawn to protect oneself from the attacks of enemies or to establish peace. But to force religion was never the aim." Then you say: "I do not know from where and from whom our opponents have heard that Islam has spread by the force of the sword." Obviously here "opponents" are Christians etc. who object: God says in the Holy Quran: That is, there is no compulsion in the religion of Islam. So who ordered Jabir and what were the means of Jabir? Are those who are forcibly converted to Islam not sincere and faithful that without receiving any salary, despite being two or three hundred people, they face thousands of people. And when they reach a thousand, they defeat a hundred thousand enemies and save the religion from the enemy's attack. Let them crawl like sheep and goats and seal the truth of peace with their blood. And be such lovers of spreading the Oneness of God that, in a dervish-like manner, enduring hardship, they reach the deserts of Africa and spread Islam in that land. And then, enduring all kinds of hardships, they reach China, not in the manner of war, but in a dervish-like manner, reaching that land and inviting people to Islam, the result of which is that, through their blessed means, several crore Muslims are born in this land. And then, in the guise of tat-clad dervishes, they come to India, ennobling a large part of Aryavarta with Islam, and take the call of "La ilaha illallah" to the borders of Europe. Tell me in faith, is this the work of those who are forcibly converted to Islam, whose hearts are infidel and tongues are believer? Rather, it is the work of those whose hearts are filled with the light of faith and in whose hearts there is only God." ("Message of Peace"). Then you say: The Messiah came into the world to dispel the notion of raising the sword in the name of religion and to prove with his seeds and arguments that Islam is such a religion that does not need the help of the sword at all for its propagation, but rather its inherent virtues of teaching and its truths and expenses and seeds and arguments and God Almighty's living support and signs and its inherent attraction are such things that always cause its progress and propagation. Therefore, let all those who confess that Islam was spread by the force of the sword be aware that they... 1015 CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION are liars in this claim. The effects of Islam do not need any coercion for their propagation. If someone... Further, you stated: "Now, those who object to the spread of Islam through the sword will be severely ashamed." These are the sayings. Then you state that: "So, when Islam does not instruct to enter the religion through coercion or threats of murder, then waiting for a bloody Mahdi or a bloody Messiah is utterly absurd and nonsensical because it is impossible for such a person to come into the world who would convert people with the sword, against the teachings of the Quran." Then you state: "Whereas this is the way of Allah, meaning to destroy the oppressors and deniers with the sword, this way of Allah has been going on since ancient times, meaning to destroy the oppressors and deniers with the sword, so why is the Quran specifically objected to? Was God someone else during the time of Moses and someone else during the time of Islam? Or did God like wars at that time and now finds them bad? Islam has only commanded to raise the sword against those who first raise the sword against you and has commanded to kill only those who first kill you. It has never ordered that you should be under a disbelieving king. 1116 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 22nd August, 1974 ...to be in it and, taking advantage of its justice, to attack it rebelliously. According to the Quran, this is the way of the wicked, not the righteous. But the Torah does not clearly explain this difference anywhere. This shows that the Holy Quran, in its Jalali and Jamali commandments, follows that straight path, justice and fairness, mercy and kindness, the likes of which cannot be found in any book in the world. Then you say: (That Allah Almighty has made it obligatory for the believers to fight against those who forcibly convert people to their religion and prevent the believers from their worship). This is a long passage. If you wish, I can translate it. And here's another... Yes, this is the translation. But I did this translation along with it, had it done. But I could have done it anyway, it's here. What Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) said regarding Jihad is very clear. Here, in what sense is the order of conditions an order, I have read it out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no, you have narrated one thing that I want to say is that there is no question at all about Mirza Sahib on this. Neither in front of you, nor any dispute that someone wants to spread Islam by the force of the sword. This is a wrong conception. All Muslims know, all agree that there is defensive war in Islam. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION [17 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, exactly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You emphasized a lot that it spread by the force of the sword. I I am not even talking about that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Christians must be saying this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Any Muslim scholar knows that Islam can never be spread by the force of the sword. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Except as God wills. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no compulsion. There is no dispute about this. The dispute is about the fact that when Jihad is necessary, conditions exist, You say that it will not happen in the time of the Mahdi because in the presence of the Mahdi the conditions are over. You have also given this reason. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Holy Prophet said that it will not happen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's what I'm saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, no, where, where did it happen? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So the Hadith that you recited from Bukhari Sharif, says that he will end the Jihad, which are your words. So after that The question does not arise that conditions will come again. Please explain this. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 122nd August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, correct. Will end. Second writing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: By "end" I don't mean for eighteen years or seventeen years, is it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will answer. Will end. Meaning of "end" and other writings and sayings of the founder of the Ahmadiyya series, the meaning of ending is that regarding his life, he will say that "this will not happen in my time." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning from 1891 to 1908. For that time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Hadith of Bukhari, is its application for that time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is regarding that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the peace that will spread in the land, is that also for that time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Peace will spread in the land" this that is, one meaning is that the human mind will theoretically reach the conclusion that beliefs cannot be changed by coercion. In that respect, peace has spread. As far as our respectable neighboring country, the President of China, Chairman Mao Zedong has written in his book as it is in my sermon too... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is in your sermon? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The idea of changing the beliefs of the heart with coercion is foolish. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is out of the question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. So, one meaning of "peace has spread" is that after its long experience, after sectarian riots and horrible inquisitions in Christianity for centuries, that is the era of the Christian world. But after passing through all those times, man has reached the conclusion, man as a whole, that we should now accept that the thousands of years of efforts made by man to change beliefs through coercion have yielded nothing. Therefore, coercion should not be used to change beliefs. This is a peace. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, yes, the world has reached this conclusion, from your point of view, that they do not use coercion in matters of religion, so these conditions still exist even after 1908? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They exist. But there is also a possibility of change. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, the implication is that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They still exist, according to us, but there is a possibility of change. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This direction of Mirza Sahib, that it is forbidden for you, you say that this is all for the period of seventeen or eighteen years, later the conditions may change so that Jihad may become permissible? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I say that what he said, "It is forbidden for you," should be acted upon, and the same amount of action should be taken on this, "When the conditions change and the requirements are met, then it is obligatory upon you to do Jihad," I have just read it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You just read that out. No, I had another reference in front of me, in which it says, "It is forbidden and do not expect it in the future either." So that's where my difficulty arose. I'll read it out: Remember that for Muslims –" This is an advertisement worth publishing for our community and for the attention of the High Government, "Tiryaq-ul-Qulub," I think. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, "Tiryaq-ul-Qulub" is from a member of your delegation, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 332. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let's see, if it's here now... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'll give it to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, give it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then there won't be any problem. (At this stage Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad vacated the chair which was occupied by Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Remember that this sect from among the sects of Muslims, for which God has appointed me as Imam, leader, and guide, carries a great distinguishing mark with it. Now this applies to the whole Firqua. WENYE JUDY BY THE QADIUNE MKOUT DELEGATION 1121 ... There is absolutely no sword jihad in this sect, nor is it awaited, rather this blessed sect does not consider the teaching of jihad permissible at all, neither openly nor secretly. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is for his time. It is not written anywhere in it "until the Day of Judgment". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So it was for his time? When did he say this, until 1908? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is, we should have a sentence in our mind that "The conditions of jihad will not be fulfilled in your time." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I understand. Mirza Nasir Ahmad ... according to the hadith. And later it may be fulfilled at some point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When they say "there is no wait", is this until 1908? After that, are the hours of waiting over? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "The wait for the bloody Mahdi, such a Mahdi will be born who will declare jihad in his lifetime despite this hadith, that is not awaited. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Isn't this one meaning taken, according to some Muslims, according to my understanding, that when the Mahdi comes, Islam will spread. Since jihad is against the disbelievers. So there will be no need for jihad? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Again, Islam needs a sword to spread! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not talking about the sword. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That when the Mahdi comes, Islam will spread throughout the whole world. Will happen. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How will it spread? It is written there, there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: With the sword. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: With the sword. It is written there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, your concept is that it won't be with force. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our concept... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, it will be through preaching. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our concept is that, meaning... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But Islam will spread, yes, through that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Islam will spread? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Within three centuries. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, as far as Jihad is concerned, is Mirza Sahib's time only for 18 years or 17 years, or is it for three hundred years in general? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As for Jihad, this prophecy that has come in the Hadith is that those times are related to your life, that in your lifetime, there will be no conditions for Jihad. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1123 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you the same question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am, I am linking it, right? It links to that. And after your death, there is a possibility that the conditions for Jihad will be fulfilled, and at that time, the order is that every Ahmadi, according to the guidance of the Holy Quran, should perform Jihad when the conditions of Jihad are met, just as the previous ones said, this is a separate issue. There is a struggle for Islam, which includes not only this minor Jihad, but also... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the one with the pen, the one of preaching... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In which there is Jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Jihad of preaching, which is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Jihad of preaching and the Jihad of self-improvement, which means that you should mold your lives according to the example of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and be a role model for this world in which you live, just as the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is a role model until the end of the world. Adopt the color of his morals. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! So we have come to the conclusion that when we say "the era of Mirza Sahib," it means when Islam will dominate the whole world, everyone will be Muslim. The era means three hundred years after his life will also come, from his life or the period from when he made the claim to three hundred years is that era. Secondly, the era that is related to Jihad, from 1891 to 1908, is that what his era means? 1124 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "The era that is, isn't it?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In that sense? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, in that sense, the era is confusing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because it has come in both senses. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, the Hadith says that the Mahdi will put aside "Yafaul Harb." War, small jihad, will put down. "Yada'o" is indicating that then its use is possible, this Arabic word itself is. And for the life of the Mahdi, it is certain that in his lifetime, the conditions of Jihad will be non-existent. But after your death, after your passing, it is possible that the conditions exist, and for this, there is an order in your writings that at that time, it is obligatory and compulsory for Ahmadis to participate in Jihad. This is Jihad; mixing it with another concept creates confusion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this I have... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Meaning, this is I... yes, one is the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and the pious predecessors hundreds of references and reasoning from the verses of the Holy Quran. And "Liyuzhirahu Alad Deeni Kullihi", so this is a verse of the Holy Quran. Before this, pious predecessors have said that the Mahdi's era... the Mahdi's era is the era of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). I mentioned yesterday that we call even the era of the Prophet the era of Hazrat Umar, the era of Hazrat Abu Bakr. So, it is the era of the Prophet himself. But his Jamaat, the Mahdi's Jamaat, which... ...is, it is three hundred years, or you stated that you will not have to wait three hundred years. My assessment is, and this is my personal opinion, that within two hundred years, God willing, Islam will prevail over the world. And according to my opinion, and I bear this responsibility, its signs will start to appear within 15-16 years. And then there will be a great Jihad that we will have to undertake, all the Muslims who want the dominance of Islam. And all the responsibility for this has been placed on the Mahdi's group. And your group has been created for the efforts of the dominance of Islam, and they should not look in any other direction. And your group will remain until those infidels arrive upon whom the Day of Judgment is to come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! This is what I was submitting, that this direction is for the group, and these are the directions of Mirza Sahib that: "Remember that among the sects of Muslims, this sect whose Imam, leader, and guide God has appointed me, holds a great distinctive mark, and that is that there is absolutely no sword jihad in this sect, nor is there any waiting for it." This is a direction for the sect. You say that the direction is only until 1908. And I say, I mean that this is forever. So this is right, you are saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, we should differentiate. To say that "there is a possibility of the conditions for future Jihad being present" has a completely different meaning. And to say that "you (do) Jihad..." Wait for a sword fight, it has a completely different meaning. So, don't wait, but be mentally prepared for it. Don't wait, but be mentally prepared that if there are conditions for Jihad, then we will do Jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! When something is forbidden for me, something is forbidden for me, neither can I eat it now, nor can I do it, nor can I do it tomorrow. Then you say that "this is forbidden" and "don't even wait for it". You say "be mentally prepared". Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "Don't wait" is there? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What is the word there, "Na Intezar"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It is not said that don't wait. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Waiting is for the future, yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Oh ho! It is for the future, it has different meanings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In this sect, there is absolutely no sword Jihad, nor is there any... nor is there any waiting for it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "Nor is there any waiting for it." The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that do not create hardships for yourselves, and do not remain in those hopes. This is the command of the Holy Quran. This is the command of the Hadith. "Nor is there any waiting for it." I am telling you my religion. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1127 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, according to your own Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Jamaat's belief is that the hadith of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in which it is mentioned that the Mahdi will cease war. Its obligation is until the Mahdi's lifetime, meaning in that era. That truthful elder had predicted that the conditions of jihad will not exist in the Mahdi's lifetime... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have stated this in great detail. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then you said that the time of Mahdi, I said that after that is the end times. You said no, it lasts for three hundred years. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I say until I have said that three hundred years, no, I do not have knowledge of the unseen until the Ahmadiyya Jamaat enters that era about which it is said in the hadith that disbelief will spread greatly in the world and then the Day of Judgment will come. These are news from the hadith. So, one has to wage complete jihad for a time, Jihad Kabir, to make Islam dominant in the world. And after that, there is another Jihad Kabir, which is greatly related to Jihad Akbar, that those who are Muslims should be properly trained. Now look at your past history. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You have already stated that, you said that their conditions are always present, you said about Jihad Kabir yesterday. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, when the conditions are present. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You stated that they are always present. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What thing? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The conditions for Jihad-e-Kabir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Jihad-e-Kabir is always present. The conditions for Jihad-e-Akbar are always present. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are always present, so as far as Jihad-e-Kabir is concerned, the conditions are present at all times. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...for Jihad-e-Kabir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When the Mahdi comes, will the conditions for Jihad-e-Kabir also end? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They will remain? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Tafa'ul Harb" This is referring to the Jihad that is related to war, meaning with the sword, with fighting, meaning Jihad-e-Saghir. Milh al-Harb. Jihad... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I understand this. My own impression was that when the Mahdi comes, he will eliminate the need for Jihad because everyone will become Muslim, so there will be no question of Kabir or Saghir. This is the impression that was given to me by the question... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, this is not our view. 1149 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not your opinion. You believe that the dominance of Islam will last for three hundred years... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning within two or three hundred years, the entire world, that is, mankind, will gather under the banner of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib's life... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...it started from that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, from that point for two hundred years, three hundred years, that is their time." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is for the dominance of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: For the dominance of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our view is not that we will eliminate everyone with a puff. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is no one's view, Mirza Sahib! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Just now you said that you were given some impression. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, I didn't understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it's no one's view. I have been saying from the beginning that as far as compulsion in religion is concerned, this is not anyone's belief. Spreading the matter of religion through the sword, this is not the belief of any Muslim sect. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the Mahdi will come and everyone will become Muslim! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar Mirza Sahib! Mahdi will come and all will be Muslims. The belief that you understand is that he will break the cross, kill the pig. Physically, metaphorically, whatever its interpretation is, whatever that may be, its implication could be that everyone will become Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In how long? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think he will finish it in his lifetime. You say that life is, no, it is up to three hundred years. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a difference of opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is, it is my own. I do not know, the scholars may know what the period is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anyway, this is personal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. And Mirza Sahib! Here are some poems of Mirza Sahib: "Now leave the thought of Jihad, O friends War and strife are now forbidden for the faith." So does this apply to that 7-year period? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This, how many poems have you written? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will recite them all. There are three or four. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, recite them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now let go, O friends, of the thought of Jihad. War and fighting are now forbidden for the sake of religion. Now the Messiah has come, who is the leader of the faith. Now is the end of all religious wars. Now the light of God is descending from the heavens. Now the edict of war and Jihad is futile. He is the enemy of God who now wages Jihad. He is a denier of the Prophet who holds this belief." Now, Mr. Mirza Sahib! These ones who are, Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are there two more verses ahead? Are they not written? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I do not have them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, I will read them out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please read them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In continuation of that: Why do you forget the news of "with war"? Why do you not see it by opening Bukhari? The master of both worlds, Mustafa, has already stated that Jesus the Messiah will end the wars. Mr. Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! The Mahdi will come... and all will be Muslims, The belief that, as you understand it, "he will break the cross, kill the pig" - Physically, Metaphorically, whatever its interpretation is, whatever it may be, it can be inferred that everyone will become Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In how long? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think he will finish it in his lifetime. You say that the life, no, it is up to three hundred years. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a difference of opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning it's my own. I do not know, the scholars may know what the period is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In any case, it is one's own opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. And Mirza Sahib! Here are some poems of Mirza Sahib: "Now leave the idea of Jihad, O friends, War and strife are now forbidden for religion." So does this apply to the 7-year period? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How many poems have you written? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will recite them all. There are three or four. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, recite them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now abandon the thought of Jihad, O friends! War and fighting are now forbidden for the sake of religion. Now, The Messiah, who is the Imam of the faith, has arrived. Now is the vengeance of all the religious wars. Now, The light of God descends from the heavens. Now the Fatwa of war and Jihad is futile. He who now wages Jihad against God Is an enemy. He is a denier of the Prophet who holds such a belief. Now, Mr. Mirza Sahib! These that are... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are there more verses? Are they not written down? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I do not have them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Alright, I will read them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please read them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In continuation of that: Why do you forget the news of "Bulagh Al-Harb"? Why don't you open Bukhari and see? The master of both worlds, Mustafa, has already said "Jesus Christ will postpone the wars." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Exactly this is the point, Mirza Sahib, that "He will end the wars." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "That he will postpone the wars." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Postpone" "The postponement, is it permanent or temporary?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Postponement is never permanent." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so does that mean that Jesus (peace be upon him) also failed then? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He also failed? He came and then he could not complete this task either? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What task? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is, to end the wars. So he could not do that either. He only postponed it. Then we will have to wait for another who will end it completely. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Did you and us, meaning the Muslim Ummah, fight wars under the banner of any Mahdi during the Rashidun Caliphate with the governments of Karani and Caesar? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I am asking from the concept that when Jesus (peace be upon him) will return, there will be peace in the world, wars will end. So this did not happen. He just postponed it and left. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I say -adjourned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I got this impression. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I say, 'Mula-ul-Harb' (Peacemaker) this is not my saying, it is the saying of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Master of the Universe, Mustafa, has already stated, He will postpone the wars of Jesus Christ. This is what you said. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When he comes, he will bring peace with him, he will completely erase the series of wars... (Inaudible) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After adjournment, it will then be completely sine die. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In that era, there will be no religious war of any kind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, he will completely erase it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In his lifetime, there will be no religious war of any kind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mr. Mirza! The thing is, I am a bit ignorant, please don't mind. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you keep this and... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will take them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. 1134 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will take this, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Should I deposit this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That concept of Jesus (peace be upon him) returning to this world, whether he comes physically or in another form, that is another detail, there is no need to go into that. He has a specific purpose. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: God has given him a specific mission. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That mission is that when he comes, Islam will spread, there will be peace, whatever method he adopts, after that there will be no need for war, conflict and all these things, jihad, etc., he will eliminate it completely. You say that no, he postponed it for 18 years, and then the سلسلہ (sequence/era) will start again. And that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I absolutely did not say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I absolutely did not say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you have… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That maybe after that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, and it is also possible that it may not happen at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is also possible. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is also possible. Keep that in mind as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And war could also happen. So Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) came for the purpose of ending war forever, that was not resolved. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) came for the purpose... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Comes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...wait three hundred years, then see if that purpose has been resolved or not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whether he comes or not, that is what I am requesting from you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if we look at the purpose of Jesus, now this objective has come, right? So, regarding the objective, the righteous predecessors have written something. In the Holy Quran, in Surah As-Saff: "It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although the polytheists may dislike it." When we look at the literature of Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah, in Tafsir Ibn Jarir, I have taken a brief... completely all of it, they say: (There is no Urdu in the provided text. It only contains the word "Arabic" in Urdu. Therefore, I cannot translate the page to English.) This is from Ibn Jarir. It is in Tafsir al-Hussaini. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You have already read this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there is still some left. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, then please read it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That, "He will make this religion prevail over all religions." Who is Brahma Kalh? That, at the time of the descent of the Mahdi, at the time of the descent of Jesus... ...the dominance over all religions. And in Tafsir Nihayat al-Quran, from Hazrat Allama Nizamuddin, it says: And the hadith of Abu... the hadith of Abu Dawood is: And when we look at the literature of the Shia, it is in the famous Shia book, Bihar al-Anwar: That this verse is about the era of Imam Mahdi. And in the famous Shia book, Nihayat al-Maqsood, it says: "The Messenger here refers to the Mahdi al-Maw'ud." So, the prophecies here... I have not reasoned yet. The prophecies... the reasoning in the form of prophecy from this verse of the Holy Quran, The Shia, the Sunni wa al-Jama'at, different sects, have said that in the era of the Mahdi or the Messiah, Islam will prevail all over the world. But it was not said that it will prevail in five years, or that it will prevail in ten years, or that it will prevail in twenty years. For that, my only point in this is that in so many references that I have given, it is not there that it will prevail in 20 or 25 years. For that, we will have to look at other traditions, other interpretations, and then it will come before us. So, I will tell you an argumentative point at this time. If they say so, I will submit those references here as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Isn't there a need? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying that in these references, these hadiths that you recited, I didn't hear any mention of two or three hundred years. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I said the same thing, I myself said the same thing. I said that these references that I have read, this verse of the Quran only interprets that in the time of the Mahdi, Islam will prevail throughout the world. And it doesn't say that it will prevail in five years, nor does it say that it will prevail in a hundred years. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A hundred years... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: For that, we will have to look at other references. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! What you said yesterday, that two hundred or three hundred years - is there any such hadith? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those references... I said the same thing, didn't I? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If there is a period of three hundred years, three hundred years, two hundred years... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or a hundred years... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Within two hundred years, Islam will prevail throughout the world, or within three hundred years it will prevail. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will give you its references? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please tell me that tomorrow. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1139 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Will it continue tomorrow as well? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: By this evening, I mean, the hope is that it will be finished today. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This poor Ghalib used to say: Who wins until your hair is sacrificed? Now, this two-hundred-year matter that comes up, that Islam will spread, we don't have much of an answer to that. None of us will be around to see if it happens or not. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a matter of faith, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those who were martyred in the field of Badr in the way of God, did they see that the governments of Chosroes and Caesar would be overthrown? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is a matter of faith, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Keeping knowledge on the unseen is a fundamental command for us, that the promises that have been made, consider them as if they have already happened. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, sir, the second verse in this is: The Messiah has come, who is the Imam of the religion. End. Wars. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 22nd, 1974 1140 So, this Imam was not just for those eighteen years, he is an Imam for your entire religion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is an Imam, and his word is to be obeyed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that means that he says: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: His word is to be obeyed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is an Imam, isn't he? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say that: "Now is the end of all religious wars." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They say that when the conditions for Jihad exist, then Ahmadi's should fight. I just read it out. It has been provided. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Those conditions are the rule for Muslims in every situation, there will be conditions... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, there is revenge because of his presence. Explain this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If that were the meaning, then it wouldn't be the quote that I just submitted. In any case, I have stated my belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Now the light of God descends from the sky, Now the edict of war and Jihad is futile." Meaning, will there be no fatwa during this period when they are present, or for the future? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The first line is clarifying: "Now the light of God is descending from the heavens." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The light of God has already come, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the descent of the light of God, in this form, is until the life of the Mahdi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! If I am an Ahmadi, then I would understand it as, once that descent has happened, then it is there, it will remain. It's not that the descent was for eighteen years and then it will not be there afterwards. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: May I answer? You say that if you are an Ahmadi. I say that I am an Ahmadi, and keeping in mind all the worships of the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, in that context, I, an Ahmadi and the Khalifa of the Ahmadiyya community, have reached the conclusion that you have stated that this is an era of peace, but if at any time during this era of peace, or in any part of the world, the conditions for Jihad are met, then those upon whom Jihad is obligatory according to the beliefs of the Muslim Ummah, Ahmadis will have to perform Jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, I'll leave this poem; you have explained it. I'll move on. This is an advertisement from February 21, 1889, which is on page 42 of Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 8. I will read it: Some beliefs that are understood to be Islamic beliefs only because of Allama are such that the person who adopts them as his belief is dangerous to the government." This is in connection with Jihad, but this is not clear. I had requested you regarding this, that in my opinion, this hasn't appeared in any book in the library today? Has volume eight arrived? (From Mirza Nasir Ahmad) Then he says, that: "For sixteen years, I have been emphasizing in my writings that obedience to the British Government is obligatory on the Muslims of India, and Jihad is forbidden." This advertisement "Dated December 10, 1894, Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 3, page 200." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what question is asked after that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! This is so clear to me, because obedience to the British Government became obligatory, then there can be no question of any Jihad against them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This "forbidden" means here is limited in its contexts. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And as far as the question of obedience to the English government is concerned, I had read out many references that all the major scholars of that time had the same fatwa. And this is also in our founder's writings. And the fourth condition is also from Shah Abdul Aziz. You asked yesterday, we have extracted that reference. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1143 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's not it. It means this, right, that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That obedience to Britain is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a continuous example. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Sahib! I'm asking this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, one sentence of it, only one sentence is in "Fatawa Naziriya": "In this era, none of these four conditions exist, so how can jihad be waged? It will not happen at all. Moreover, we are in agreement; we have made a pact with the government, so how can we go against the pact (i.e., breaking the pact with the British government is greatly condemned in the hadith)." I have given references before as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you have given references. One thing is that I have an agreement with you, we make a treaty, Muslims make a treaty with non-believers, and our duty is that we must abide by them. This agreement that has been made, they say, "Okay, we have made an agreement with them, made a pact," but to say that obedience... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Take out the other one. (To the Attorney General) I read many references yesterday. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not theirs, what it means from them is, is it part of Islam to obey the British government in your view? [144 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [22nd August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: According to everyone. Yesterday I read so many references. (To a member of his delegation) Where is the memorandum? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's fine then, sir, if that's what you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yesterday I read and told you references from other brother sects. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was surprised that obeying the British is also a part of Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is part of Islam to obey a just ruler, even if he is a non-Muslim, and does not interfere in religion. It is just an accident that the British were the rulers at that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I knew that whoever among you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ......This is just a historical accident. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he further states that: "I have written hundreds of books against Jihad and published them in support of the Government in Arab, Egypt, Bilad-e-Sham and Afghanistan." I am asking here for this reason, Mirza Sahib! This is the advertisement "October 21, 1895..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Should I give one answer? Firstly, here "hundreds" means "hundreds of volumes", not books, not...that is, we say, "take these dry things". CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1145 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's why they become smaller as well, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, take away a hundred books, it doesn't mean that they are a hundred different authors' or the same author's hundred books, but rather a hundred of its copies, which we call in everyday parlance. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there can be copies. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, copies. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not coming to that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, one is this, the second is that you stated in it that "I sent to Arab countries". And all the Arab countries that were there, in which they sent there, their reaction is not that which makes it objectionable. Number two. Number three is also an aspect. And it is clear against Jihad that... The person who has written so clearly in another place, no other meaning can be taken of "against Jihad" besides that "I wrote that as far as the English government is concerned, it acts justly, does not interfere in religion, therefore the conditions of Jihad are not being fulfilled and one should not fight with them." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what you have stated correctly. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is what the conditions of Jihad mean. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understood that. What I was not understanding here was... "Obedience to the English" you said is right because it does not interfere in our religious matters. But why was this English propaganda happening in Afghanistan? 1146 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [22nd August, 1974 that you obey him, even there? When he states: "I have, in Arab countries, in Egypt, in lands, in Syria, in Afghanistan..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Published in support of the Government. What was the justification for this, is what I am asking? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This accusation was leveled against the Ahmadiyya community that, despite the conditions for Jihad being fully met within the British sphere of influence, the Ahmadiyya community was still not engaging in Jihad. So, this was a double-edged sword. On one hand, we were being accused; on the other hand, the government was being accused of interfering in Islamic matters and using coercion. Although all the elders had already made declarations. So, the answer given also benefited the British. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking this, Mirza Sahib! Did the British Government tell them to "do propaganda for me," or did they, of their own accord, deem it appropriate to defend the British Government there? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ah, good! Is that the reason for it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I mean. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The reason was that Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi and some other people, and Karam Din Bhim, they were internally spreading propaganda that he claims to be the Mahdi. is a person, and in our traditions, the Mahdi will be a murderer, and he is plotting a rebellion against you. is gathering, and against the British government, he will raise the flag of the remaining rebellion. And In response to this, you told the government this, otherwise if it was God's command, the government would fulfill the conditions of Jihad, then we would say that they are fulfilled, We will wage jihad against you. You told the government that after coming to you, they say that we people, namely Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi and this Karam Din Bhim and other scholars who are, are your obedient, followers, and we thought that you Under your patronage there is peace, no interference in religion, etc., etc. But this person outwardly says that I am law abiding. But from within, he is preparing against you is rebelling, because the Sudanese Mahdi was fresh in their minds. So this is it. Therefore, Karam Din is a Maulvi Sahib. They have written in his book "Taziana-e-Ibrat": The government is satisfied with its loyal Muslim subjects and the government knows very well It is known that Mahdis like Mirza Ji, those who pretend to be righteous, cause some calamity or the other They used to wreak havoc in the kingdom. Mirza Ji has created this thought among the Muslims has created (one who listens carefully). Mirza Ji has created this in the Muslims. The thought has arisen that this is the time of Mahdi and Messiah, and Qadian District In Gurdaspur, the Mahdi and Messiah is sitting who has been sent for the breaking of the cross. so that he may erase Christianity and illuminate Islam. There is no doubt in this Mirza Ji has made the Muslims very suspicious and agitated against the Christians. They consider the Antichrist to be Christians, and they call the railway a "net of wisdom." Now the question is, who has started this railway? If this is a "net of wisdom," then they call the ruler of the time who runs it the Antichrist and are inciting Muslims strongly against him. The government should be mindful of such individuals at all times. This is *Taziana-e-Ibrat*, Second Edition, pages 93-94, by Sher-e-Islam Mawari Karam Din Sahib, Dabir, printed by Muslim Printing Press, Lahore. This is their reference. This kind of... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, this was a complaint against them, on which... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There was a complaint, so they were only told that we believe that Chahar should fulfill the conditions, your government is not interfering in religion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand, I understood that they complained against them that "actually, this is working against your government from within and outwardly supporting you," so they said this in response. But these books had already been sent, there's a complaint, that's the question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These books, this complaint that they made, after that, they sent it in writing there... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They had already sent it? LKU33-DISCUSSION ABOUT THE QADIANI DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This complaint started very long ago, with claims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, the books that they sent, didn't they send them to please the British? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, to clarify their position. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Their propaganda on their behalf? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, for themselves. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: For the sake of God? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, but I mentioned earlier that it also had an effect on them. But it was for themselves and... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman, Sir, shall we have a break for fifteen minutes? The room is very hot. We have no...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, very hot. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is very hot. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Depressing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .......(Because the airconditioner is not working today. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hot and depressing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because the air-conditioner is not working. For 15, 20 minutes. Madam Chairman: Till 12.30? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 12:30 is fine. Make it 15-20, it will still work. 1130 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August, 1974 Madam Chairman: As you like. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well! I am ready to serve you. What can I do if your quorum is not complete? A voice: It's very hot. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It's extremely hot. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Put on one or two more fans. Arrange a fan here. Aslam Sahib (Secretary), arrange a fan here, like that, on both sides for me and Mirza Sahib. A voice: No, the air conditioner is not working. Madam Chairman: If a fan... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One on their side, one here. Madam Chairman: Yes, get two fans installed, order two fans. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are you only keeping the opposition cool? Madam Chairman: The delegation is permitted to leave. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: So when now? 12:15 When do we reassemble at? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 12:15 half hour. The Special Committee adjourned to reassemble at 12:15 p.m. The Special Committee reassembled after break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. READING OF AYAT OR AHADITH IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION 1151 REVIEW OF PROGRESS OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION A member: Honorable Chairman! Mr. Chairman: One second. Yes. One second. Chaudhry Sahib! Shah Sahib! Let today's, let today's proceedings be completed, when we finish at nine, nine thirty, ten o'clock at night, then we will review, then we will review how much is left. Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: My submission is, Sir, the question is put, they are finished or scrutinized the question, or reduce the number, that I can see. But the question is still pending and this is wound up today? Mr. Chairman: No, no, I assure you, Sir, that is Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: I am that one who strongly oppose it. Mr. Chairman: Listen to me, I am not going to cut it short, we are not going to leave it in the middle, we are not going to just stop it. We will only do this, that tonight, this evening, when the assembly adjourns, before that, for five minutes, ten minutes, fifteen minutes, half an hour, we will discuss which topics remain and how much time is needed. Maulana Abdul Haq: Sir. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Abdul Haq! READING OF AYAT OR AHADITH IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Maulana Abdul Haq: The submission is that our Attorney General Sahib is proceeding very well. But the thing is that the issue that has arisen at this time, I would like to inform you 1152 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 Al-Harb, so in this, he said a word with it and nothing else. And they said that Jihad-e-Mutlaq is not permissible in Islam. Now there are verses for this. The request is that this Arabic text and those verses and hadiths, the Attorney General Sahib, if he permits, then our Hazrat Mufti Sahib or I will present it. Now they presented a statement at that time, in which they said in Arabic that Imam Mahdi and Jesus Christ or the Promised Messiah, when they come, there will be no infidels in the world, no sect will remain. The same statement was presented and then he said that there will be no conditions. No, at that time the Messiah Promised will come as a ruler, there will be dominion over the whole world, and the whole world: Then it should also be asked whether it is only "Mulla Al-Harb," or is it that the Promised Messiah will end the cross, will kill the pig. So did the cross end in the time of Mirza or did Christianity spread? My submission is only that if there is a need for a verse or hadith at any time, then Mufti Sahib should.... Mr. Chairman: He has read ahead too, Maulana! Mufti Sahib has also read verses ahead. Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari Sahib is reading. You tell them, they will ask. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Speaker! I asked them whether this will happen in their time? So they say that the time is two or three hundred years, they will present references for that, they will present hadiths. Mr. Chairman: Okay, no, you don't worry. Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To Maulana Abdul Haq) If you say so, I will tell them to they will recite to you. PROCEDURE OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION URGENCY OF THE CROSS EXAMINATION 1153 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Now you have stated that we will review in the evening what work is left and what is not. But in between, if there are talks like finish it quickly, finish it quickly... Mr. Chairman: No, not this, right now... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I would like to submit that the result of this is that the people who are asking questions, their minds become very scattered, they get confused about what to ask and what not to ask. Therefore, and this record is not such that it will only be useful to us today, but it will be useful to the entire Islamic world. A delay of four days, five days, six days, ten days in it does not matter. So either this matter should be discussed and settled in the House, and if it is known that it has to be finished, then why take unnecessary trouble? Mr. Chairman: I said earlier that we will talk in some way. It's not that we'll say at some point it will end, at some point it won't, it will continue." We will review regularly, in a scientific way, after the night session. There is one sitting now, until 1:30 or 1:45, and two at night. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay. PROCEDURE OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I want to submit one more thing, if the Attorney Sahib agrees with this, that people are in a hurry anyway, to work in the shortest possible time. If it is the case that regarding their writings on a topic, we read them and say that he... 1134 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 22nd, 1974 Whether they accept their writing or not. Let it come on record, and then whether they will explain it or not, but they should admit that Mirza Sahib wrote this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are admitting it, they are doing it. We don't have any such questions. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, we are getting them to admit it, because many things are left, and they are very important. So at least let it come on record that we presented this writing of theirs. Either they denied it or they accepted it. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Malik Karam Bakhsh Awan! Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan: I wanted to submit that when they quote a book, state a page, they should verify whether it is correct or incorrect. And after that, they make very lengthy interpretations, wasting time in the process. Mr. Chairman: Besides the books, also keep in mind the numbers, that you should complete forty. A voice: Are there any? Mr. Chairman: You should complete forty members, keep that in mind as well. Think of everything together. Meaning, we waste at least two hours trying to complete the quorum... Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan: Yes, every member should come on time. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: There is no need, because he says such things that are also in our beliefs, why do we need to listen to him? Or to any such cleric... ...mentioned that so-and-so Maulvi said this. He was neither our Maulvi, nor anything, and this is completely, meaning our time is being wasted.... Mr. Chairman: Yes, they may be called. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: That's why we requested the Attorney General to have all the questions come in. Mr. Chairman: They may be called. (Interruption) Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, may I know, Sir, the order or decision? Will it be over this evening or will it continue till the questions are finished? Mr. Chairman: I have announced my decision, I have already announced my decision. Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, you say that we will have two sessions tonight holding two sessions tonight? Mr. Chairman: You remain busy in talks, I have said that after tonight's session, we will review in the entire House, what the position is, how far to go, to what extent. (The Delegation entered the chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the fan is too close to me now. It is very far from Mirza Sahib's side, very close to my side. Keep the other one closer. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, turn it this way. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Turn it a little, turn it a little. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is in the same context that I was reading the references, the first reference I just read to you is that they wrote against Jihad in hundreds of books and published them in Arabia, Egypt, Syria, and Afghanistan in support of the Government. After that, similarly, here is another reference from Mr. Mirza: I thought it appropriate to send this pamphlet to Arab countries, namely the Two Holy Mosques, Syria, and Egypt, etc., because on page 153 of this book, an article has been written against Jihad, and I have made it my duty for twenty-two years to ensure that such books, which are against Jihad, are sent to Islamic countries. Because of this, my Arabic books have also been sent to Arab countries and have gained much fame. Mirza Sahib! This is Ishtihar Tabligh Risalat, Volume 10, page 26. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that since a Maulvi Sahib had made complaints against them to the English, that is why they said this. Here, they say that for twenty-two years, I have taken this duty upon myself. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "That I should preach in Arab countries, in Muslim countries." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1157 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "And these Muslim countries are very happy, it is also written. I accept the entire passage. It is written." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Where they became famous." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. And this is actually the time. In today's time, until we have that background in front of us, we cannot understand the reality. Listen to this to understand the background. Allama Ali Al-Hairi is very famous. January 28, 1923, this is a very important reference regarding this background: Now is the time for the acceptance of prayers, after the prayer of خاتمہ بالخیر, it is your duty to say Amen with a sincere heart for the establishment and continuation of this religious freedom. Because in reality, you will be very ungrateful if you do not acknowledge that we have the pride of being under the shadow of such a kingdom, whose justice and fairness cannot be found in any other kingdom in the world. In fact, an important right of the ruler of the time is that the subjects should always be grateful for the justice and fairness of their king. In this, there was also تعی of the Holy Prophet of Islam (i.e., following the example). It is necessary for Muslims that you (i.e., the Holy Prophet) also mentioned being in the era of Noshirwan Adil in a tone of praise and pride. Therefore, it is necessary that, in تعسی of the Prophet, Muslims should pray for this blessed, kind, just, and justice-spreading British organization and be grateful for its favors. Besides this." 1158 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [22nd August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! People keep doing such flattery, I am not talking about that, my question was different. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Such flattery that people keep doing, no sir, we are talking about very high-ranking scholars and religious leaders of that time, not just anyone. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I don't know, I am not familiar, I seem to be hearing about such flattery. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Their elders, very revered elders of the Shia gentlemen... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One said something else, another said something else. I was asking you another question, which is... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I will give you the background of that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which is related to Mahdi. Please do read it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Our very famous scholar of that time, Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi wrote in Risala Isha'at-ul-Sunnah, Volume 2, page 6, footnote 148, dated 1310 AH, corresponding to 1893 AD. This is the second argument I am giving now. I had said earlier that they kept complaining... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This would be when Mirza Sahib was influential, it must be about that time. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In 1893. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Had they left Mirza Sahib by then? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, they had left Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, they had left Mirza Sahib. Because they were under his influence for quite some time. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes. They had abandoned Mirza Sahib: This is proof of his (Mirza Sahib's) deceit: that in his heart he considers it lawful and permissible for the non-religious government (the government that is non-religious) to take the life and property of, and plunder the wealth of, the non-religious government. Therefore, it is not appropriate for the government to trust him, and it is necessary to be wary of him. Otherwise, there is a possibility of this Mahdi Qadiani causing as much damage as the Sudanese Mahdi did not cause. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, my question, as far as the British government is concerned, you said that they are not interfering in religious matters, and there is a Hadith that one should obey them. So, on this occasion, I asked this question: "I have written hundreds of books against Jihad and published them in support of the government in Arabia, Egypt, Syria, and Afghanistan." There was no obedience to the British government there in those countries where these books were sent? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have not mentioned obedience there either, you have said "in support". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "In support," meaning. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning, in those countries, the impression that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In support of the British government, if not obedience, then in support. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will explain its meaning. It is said that one part of the world... in those countries is creating the impression that the British government is interfering in religious matters and not giving freedom, and is inflicting atrocities on Muslims, therefore Jihad should be waged against it. So, this is the impression that the world is giving. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Mr. Mirza Sahib! My question now becomes very simple. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The King of Great Britain is called 'Defender of Faith', he is the protector of the church, there is a cross on his crown, you are well aware of this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Very good! I will tell you now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, this is, respected sir, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, who they call the Messiah, he was to come and break the cross, they are spreading it to Iran, Afghanistan and Egypt and say it is a good government and are doing propaganda for it. In India, they say to obey it. What kind of Mahdi is this! We are very worried about this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, your question is about the claim of being the Mahdi who was to break the cross. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Break the cross, eliminate the pig. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And regarding a Christian government, while being truthful, he is writing that it does not interfere in religion and as far as… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In their support. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, in their support. As far as the cross is concerned, it is broken in such a way that if you go to Europe and talk, or wherever their missionary activities were, West Africa, East Africa, then you... 1162 will find out that she is broken. And in England in '67, in its own being, In a press conference in the capital of Scotland, I said that your nation has no interest in Christianity. So I was asked what made you think that? I I said I saw "For Sale" signs in front of London churches. And as far as 'Defender of Faith' is concerned, in Copenhagen, Denmark At a conference, a person said a slightly disrespectful remark against Islam. I I replied that I feel sorry for Christianity. So everyone was attentive as to why It evokes pity. I said that: "One who is Defender of Faith......" What you just said reminded me: "One who is Defender of Faith, had to sign the sodomy Bill". In those days, it was still fresh. So they were distraught. Allah Almighty has given us Those are the arguments that cannot be answered. The greatness of the Holy Quran, the glory of the Holy Quran, the majesty of the Holy Quran, which Islam The teaching at this time, which the human mind cannot think of more than that, about that I I challenged Christianity in Europe, and they are the old challenges, but I I repeated them, and seven years have passed since then, they do not have the courage to Accept. So as far as the cross is concerned.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This preaching... Mirza Nasir Ahmad... As far as the cross is concerned, the cross is broken. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you think that the cross is not on the crown of Britain... Now, to obey it is now Islam's... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The cross on the crown of Britain is no longer a sign of honor, it is a sign of disgrace. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, to obey that sign of disgrace, you said, is obligatory! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Obedience "Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In this country, you told the Muslims that it is obligatory for you to obey the British government. That is a sign of disgrace, and this match says that instead of breaking it, you should obey it! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sahib had to break the cross. He did, and he is doing it. The strange thing is that when the Ahmadiyya community agrees with all the great scholars of its time, it becomes a cause of objection. The fatwas that the great elders and scholars of that era gave, the fatwa of the Ahmadiyya community is no different from that. So if we agree, we are still under wrath, if we disagree, we are still under wrath. This matter is a bit beyond our understanding. And when he sees this breaking of the cross, this is one of our, this is Noor Muhammad Naqshbandi's. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So Mirza Sahib! Support for this cross where Muslims... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1163 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not in support of the cross. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning that government whose, the cross was their symbol, their pride? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that government which did not interfere in religion. Tomorrow someone will say that this government does not purify itself and is impure. It has no connection to it. The praise that has been given, is not because the cross is on its crown. It is said that we praise it because it does not interfere in religion, and it also allows freedom. So how can we combine two things that have no connection to each other? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Sahib! If you say in this sense that they broke the cross, that missionaries etc. who were attacking Islam, they were answering them, that is another sense, that is separate from the government. Christian missionaries came, you said, that when the big army came with the British and a big... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The issue is clear. If that is a separate thing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that I am taking two different things. Mirza Sahib did a lot of work against them, no one denies that, he gave very strong replies, whether the method was right or wrong, that can be another matter because he used such words about Jesus... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is a separate question. Here I am looking at the government whose symbol is the cross, that it is. So, please excuse me, what I say is that there is a contradiction in their words. 1164 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that's right, I mean if you want me to answer, I'll answer now, in the middle, or should I wait for you? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was coming to the second question, since Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, where praise was given, the reason for the praise was also given. If in this place, we leave out the reason for giving praise and pick up the praise and put it in a bracket with something that is not mentioned there, then our reasoning will be wrong. Wherever praise has been given, it has not been said anywhere that we praise because the king's crown has a cross on it. It is said. As at that time all our elders, scholars belonging to different sects, say that we praise because this government has given religious freedom and does not interfere. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here I, that's what I submitted, I understood that The thing I couldn't understand was that there was religious freedom here, so they said to obey it. But in those Muslim countries abroad, there is no question of religious freedom, that there is no freedom there. Afghanistan, Egypt, sending books in support of the British, was this breaking the cross or spreading the cross? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, you left out a word, a phrase in the middle. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that's why... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1105 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have explained it, but I am saying it anyway. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, every single word in between is important; if it is missing, the meaning will not be understood. There, the support was given by saying that we do not consider fighting them permissible because they grant religious freedom and do not fulfill the conditions of jihad. And in this way, an effort was made to remove discord and corruption from the world so that Islam could be propagated among them in peace. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As far as you mentioned "Jihad-e-Kabir," you believed that it was permitted during the British rule and Mirza Sahib continued to do it. Now, Mirza Sahib, another question arises: one is jihad, which is obligatory. The other is when a person gets angry or feels emotional. Now, when Christians insulted the dignity of the Holy Prophet, a person gets angry, driven by faith or zeal for Islam, or just out of honor; if someone says something to one's elder, they respond. That response, whether it involves abuses or harsh replies. And one is when one considers it their duty, the duty of religious jihad, to respond to it. These Christians who came, and the replies that Mirza Sahib gave them, in which category would you place them? Did he give them out of the spirit of jihad, or in anger, in emotion, driven by faith, due to zeal for Islam, or out of honor? This harsh language that he used, was it jihad in your view? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is the question finished? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. 1166 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding Jihad Kabir, this is the order of the Holy Quran: (Adopt the method that is most effective in your opinion). Sometimes the method of anger is effective, sometimes extreme gentleness, humility, and love Eating is effective. The main purpose is that they should understand the truth of human life, that is, Islam and its Sharia, and the way that Allah Almighty made to have mercy on mankind through Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace, the Holy Quran was revealed to Hazrat Khatam al-Anbiya, so that all human beings can benefit from it, and when we follow this principle, When studying the books of the founder of the Ahmadiyya series, compared to the millions of lines In comparison to those who explain with love and affection, in two or four places: There is another way: to shake them up a bit if the need arises, and as a result, If there is hope of improvement, we can also see that. And there is such a big difference between them, In my volume, every person who studies will understand that it is not possible to understand it otherwise. That it is worthy of being ignored. Did. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What I understood, Mirza Sahib! That they also did it with the spirit of Jihad. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning this was not just due to temporary enthusiasm or something else? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Temporary enthusiasm never happens. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And there was no other reason besides that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And there could be many reasons. When someone is mentioned, they will either say "yes" or deny it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That, Mirza Sahib! I have been given a reference that this, they gave neither out of enthusiasm, nor out of faith, nor for the sake of Jihad, but rather the British have been doing all this to strengthen the government. That is a letter from him in "Tiryaq-ul-Qulub", Zamima, pages 307-310 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which year is this from? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It's in "Tiryaq-ul-Qulub". Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, "Tiryaq-ul-Qulub". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think the letter that he wrote, I will read a part of it to you, then you will see it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I also confess to this. He is writing to the British, to the government... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To whom is the letter addressed? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think it is to the Lieutenant Governor or someone, the High Government... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Open letter? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it an open letter or...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Direct address. In books, at that time, it is open. No, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So: A humble request to the esteemed Government, to the Government. This is Supplement No. 3, related to the book "Tiryaq-ul-Qulub." "A humble request to the esteemed Government." I am reading from that: "I (says Mirza Sahib) also confess that when to the extent that the writings of some priests and Christian missionaries became very harsh and exceeded moderation, and especially in the "Nur Afshan" paper, which is a Christian newspaper, published from Ludhiana, very dirty articles were published." I am leaving those writings out... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You also left them out that day, the ones that were disrespectful to the Holy Prophet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, reading such books and newspapers created a fear in my heart that lest those words have some severely provocative effect on the hearts of Muslims, who are a passionate nation, then I cooled those passions. The strategy to adopt is to respond to these writings with some degree of severity. Expediency, strategy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Expediency... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, which I understand... you Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, this is expediency. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am reading. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that the fervor of quick-tempered people may be exhausted, and no unrest may arise in the country. Then, in response to such books in which extremely harsh language was used, I wrote some books in which there was reciprocal harshness, because my conscience absolutely gave me the verdict that this method would be sufficient to extinguish the fire of wrath and fury of the savage, zealous men in Islam. Nevertheless, what happened in my writing against the priests is that, through strategy, some savage Muslims were pacified. And I claim that I am the most well-wishing of the English government among all Muslims." So here, Mirza Sahib! The question I wanted to ask was that Mirza Sahib does not say that "this was my duty" or "Jihad-e-Kabir". He doesn't even say that "I became impassioned, it was a zeal for Islam." Rather, for the strengthening of the British government, for establishing peace, to cool down those savage Muslims who would get agitated due to blasphemy against the Holy Prophet! In order to prevent law and order problems for the British government, Mirza Sahib wrote all these books to fulfill this service. This gives an impression against the Christians. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no mention of writing books here, number one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All the books, the strict theory in his books is mentioned... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, against the missionaries, I am saying, all... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are mentioning the harsh parts against the missionaries? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will read it again, maybe I made a mistake. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you give me this book, I can look at it and tell you everything. Librarian Sahib! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To the librarian) Give him this book, so he says: "So that no unrest arises in the country, then I wrote some such books in response to those books in which abusive language was used with extreme harshness..." A few such books ______ I do not mean all of Mirza Sahib's writings that were in response to them, as much as those two books he kept writing against the missionaries were under that passion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The missionaries here only wrote a few books, and in them, a few sentences. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, whatever that is, Mr. Mirza, this is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, a few books, not all the books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That brings up another question, sir. He says: "The books I have written could fill fifty shelves" "In support of the British." You said the size of the shelves wasn't mentioned. (Noise) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I had asked for the size to be determined as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So I said that those shelves must have remained in Mr. Mirza's house, and how would you know the size, whether they hold two or ten! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, those are the copies, the copies, the copies of which filled a few, ten, eight, ten shelves. Does that mean they became five hundred, a thousand? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I don't say that. Mr. Mirza! The question was that he filled fifty shelves. Some would be pamphlets, some would be big books. Now, whether the shelves were two feet or ten feet, I don't know. Maybe you do. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am saying that the books you wrote are available with us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says, "Fifty shelves, and Mr. Mirza will not say anything wrong." 1172 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I never said that you will say something wrong. Kindly listen to my answer. You say "The fifty cupboards are full." So that means, according to my rough estimate, I have just calculated in my mind. That an average-sized cupboard can be filled with two thousand, two and a half thousand Volumes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You keep two thousand copies of the same book? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's what I mean. It is not like two thousand... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Sahib! Look, he says. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That many were not even written. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The list of books is also present, the list of books is also present, it is not one book. And he writes here that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, which list of books is that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "I have spent most of my life in the support and advocacy of the British Empire. (Have spent most of it). I have written so many books and published so many advertisements regarding the prohibition of Jihad and obedience to the British that if those journals and books were collected, fifty cupboards could be filled with them." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have written a total of eighty-eight Volumes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Total books? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A total of eighty-eight books have been written. And not every one of them contains such harsh words. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI SAVO PELLETTIMI Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir, I mean this Mirza Sahib!... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whatever "book" there is, keep it in front of you with the event. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look Mirza Sahib! I consider this necessary for clarification, it was my duty. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because this is the impression that is given. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That Mirza Sahib spent a large part of his life, most of it, writing books in support and praise of the English, fifty cabinets were filled with it. And the question arises, did he write so many books in praise of Allah that fifty cabinets would be filled? Did he write so many books in praise of Muhammad (PBUH) that fifty cabinets would be filled? Or did he just keep writing about the English? This question arises in the hearts of Muslims. You are giving its answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes Sir, yes Sir, that's right, the interpretation, explanation of Allah Almighty's attributes, that God is the same God that Islam has presented, the interpretation of the Holy Quran, the statement of the greatness of the Holy Quran, the great, high, exalted status and greatness of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and the books that were written to express your glory, not fifty cabinets are needed for that, even fifty thousand cabinets are not enough for that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That Mirza Sahib wrote? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that Mirza Sahib wrote. Volumes 1174 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [22nd August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you say you have written eighty-six books! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh! That's what I was explaining. Here, fifty books does not mean that one volume of each new book makes up fifty, but even if one book reaches that number. And this one is: "To get rid of anger." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The list is very long. On this… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If there are more than eighty-eight, then tell me, I will note any shortcomings in my list. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, there are twenty-four books here and magazines, advertisements, etc. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In these twenty-four books, did anyone bother to see which book is about riddles? It depends on the type of reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! Look, don't think I am insinuating. Please try to appreciate. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, me neither, I'm just telling you something. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Such words have come that each one of them should be looked at. "Fifty cupboards are filled with advertisements, magazines, books," he mentions in clear words that "fifty cupboards are filled with them." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then ask us what it means. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1175 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why I am saying that the clear meaning is that, "I spent a major portion of my fifty years under the British rule." "Fifty cupboards were filled." What portion of the remaining life was spent in the praise of Allah? And how many books, cupboards were filled? This question arises that someone will ask you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, everyone has the right to ask this. And I think that I also have the right to tell. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am asking you because these questions were asked to me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This that "fifty cupboards were filled," it is necessary that all those references should be collected for some such Muslims who get angry quickly, to cool their anger and to protect them from anti-Islamic activities, as a result of which peace is established in the country and the government of the time does not have to worry and they do not have a law and order problem. Those references and in comparison to that. I am not saying all the other references. Just take any one topic and collect the references and then I will submit it here to you. Read them, count their lines, count their pages, satisfy yourselves in whatever way you want. The one thing that the world has acknowledged is that the right to the meaning of a writing belongs only to the one who writes that writing or to those who believe in it, if he claims to be divinely appointed: Taking one sentence from the books of the Mahdi, the Promised One, it is permissible in every way to make a question about it, everyone has the right. I have 1176 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 I said before, anyone who doesn't understand should ask. But I think I'm mistaken, that it is my right to answer fully. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, I couldn't say that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So this answer, this answer, to the question you've now asked, that all that was written in support of the British over a large part of a lifetime, filling fifty cupboards, in comparison to the needs of Allah, His Messenger, and Islam at that time, and the issues that were problems, and the struggle that had to be done for Islam, and the plans that had to be made to make Islam dominant, there was no time for that at all. Yes, so then I have to explain what the relationship is between them. The question is about the relationship, isn't it? So, for that relationship, you give me time, or entrust it to one of our elders sitting here. I promise that to cool down the anger, I will produce every single word of theirs that is being alluded to. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not that kind of Muslim; it's not about my anger. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, oh no! No, then I say "Inna Lillahi wa Inna Ilayhi Raji'un," I apologize, that was not the intention at all, that was not my intention at all. My intention was that at that time, those who were thought to potentially, in anger, say something against the guidance of Islamic Sharia, or create a law and order problem for the British government, that was what was written for them. We are not talking about you at all. You are very gentle. I am very grateful to you, but that was my intention. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1177 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Man is weak, a person can make a mistake, I apologize for that if it has ever happened. And that is not my insinuation. Only the questions that have come to me... do. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay, my point is that when comparing, That's all I mean. When we compare, then the truth will be clear. So allow me to compare. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am only asking, Mirza Sahib! You said that he wrote eighty-six (86) books yesterday. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Eighty-eight. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Eighty-eight books, Mirza Sahib wrote a total of eighty-eight books. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, eighty-eight books won't fit in fifty cupboards. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a one-cupboard thing. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if they are kept one by one, they won't fit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so common, common, normal is..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So does that mean there are some other, some other books that fit in fifty cupboards. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The meaning is something else. Not some other books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said an ordinary man estimates that Mirza Sahib must have filled fifty cupboards there in support and praise of the British, spent most of his life in it, and wrote some of these books as well. And the remaining part of his life, it wasn't of fifty cupboards, which is in praise of Allah Almighty, so there is no need for more evidence that you will tell. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, more is needed because he wrote an ocean, a commentary on the Word of God, which in a human life, like mine, to fully comprehend it, to contain its meaning within oneself and adopt it, through assimilation, is not even possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, I asked a question yesterday as well. And... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That, that, the answer to yesterday's question is not there. 541541 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that, that, maybe you have another answer, there was another question. I submitted to you that Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib's book "True Islam," which is punctured, in it he says that the treasures of the Holy Quran, the hidden treasures, Mirza Sahib brought them out, revealed them to the world, which were not revealed for thirteen hundred years. I submitted to you, which verses of the Holy Quran were there in thirteen hundred years about which there was no such interpretation that Mirza Sahib revealed? Except for two or three subjects, those subjects, those verses that are related to proving his prophethood in some way or to the Promised Messiah. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay, I remember that question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Apart from them coming as the Messiah or Jihad, where did they interpret something that no one had done before? You said that they interpreted Surah Fatiha in such a way that 70% of it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is completely new. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Didn't exist before, in 1300 years, Mirza Sahib did it for the first time. Just tell me one verse from it, what did they say that hadn't been said before? Because it becomes a very big thing, no time, just select one, when did they say something that no one had said in thirteen hundred years before? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will tell you, I will read it, I will bring it in the next session, I will read it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at this now, then in the same, he says in the letter: Secondly, it is noteworthy that from the beginning of my life until now, when I have reached the age of almost sixty years, I have been engaged in this important work with my tongue and pen, to turn the hearts of Muslims towards the love, goodwill and sympathy of the English Government, and then in the end, I make another request to them… A life time. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the reference for this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From the same letter. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, from the same letter. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the Jamaat, I assure you, never took a penny from the British, nor did the Jamaat ever take the four squares of land that some other scholars took at that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, no one gets protection from squares. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And what you see, these last sentences of his are their own answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There are both things, Mirza Sahib! I will read it out to you, I am not saying that I understand it correctly. I want this clarification because they mention the family and mention it a lot. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What do they demand? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they are saying it right there. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what do they demand? That people should not disrespect us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is requested that the government officials regarding such a family... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, read on. Yes, yes, now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which fifty years of continuous experience has proven to be a loyal, devoted family, and regarding which the esteemed officials of the High Government have always testified in their letters with a firm opinion that they have been staunch well-wishers and servants of the British Government since ancient times. This is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the demand came, there is a demand ahead. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then they say: "Take action with utmost determination, caution, investigation, and attention regarding this self-planted plant, and instruct your subordinate authorities to consider the proven loyalty and sincerity of this family to me and my community..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To me and my community, what should they do? Give squares of land? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, read on. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... "look upon my community with special favor and kindness..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ahead. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Mirza Sahib, self-planted plant... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, read on, sir, there is an answer to it ahead. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Our family has not hesitated to shed blood and give lives in the way of the British government, and there is no difference now." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Ahead, ahead. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Therefore, we have the right to request full favors and special attention from the government in view of past services so that no one may dare to violate our honor without reason." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Couldn't dare to violate our honor without reason?" Demand is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no: To some extent, I am writing the names of my group below. Now, to some extent, I am writing the names of my group below... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that is a later matter. The demand of this entire preamble is only this, that no one should be able to violate our honor without reason. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you want protection from the government for your family? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no one should disrespect us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I am saying, that you want protection? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Protection is very broad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you want favor, kindness? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, kindness. A grateful mind considers this thing, this thing... without reason, that no one should violate our honor without reason." This He considers it such a favor that he did it. This is a matter of dignity; there is no occasion for objection here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Did we ask for any squares of land? Did we take any money? Did we take any concessions? Did we ask for any jobs? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I used to think that you believed that the British government was a government of justice; there was no oppression there; there were courts, there was justice, there was the rule of law, they did not interfere in matters of religion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad and still there was a danger! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, and then if this right had been given to a person, then what was the need for so much family service and flattery! This was a right, since I have served so much, I have praised you so much, my family has served so much, please have mercy on me, don't let injustice be done to me. Is this not a government if you support someone? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this thing, whatever the truth is, is the truth, no one can change it. The truth is that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here I agree with you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The truth is that not a single penny was taken from the British. Do you agree with it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I don't know. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then I am telling you that neither did we ever take any land, nor did we ever take any jobs, nor did we ever take any titles, we rejected everything, and only asked that we be allowed to live a life of dignity. And these words came out of a gentleman's mouth that if you do this too, we will be very grateful to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (Addressing the Chair) shall we continue after lunch? Because next subject with........... Mr. Chairman: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: After lunch. Mr. Chairman: Yes, no, in the evening. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We break for lunch? Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is permitted to leave, to come at 6.00 p.m. The honorable members will keep sitting. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 6 O'clock. Mr. Chairman; 6.00 p.m. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I forget one thing, it has been adjourned now, someone just needs to remind you. At the beginning, you mentioned some fatwas, Barelvi school, Deobandi school, so they said that those which are published in their books and original, please provide the list, show the books, because they wanted to ask some questions. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So it was requested earlier, the mention that came in the "affidavit," about several fatwas, one sect against the other, so you quoted books, those books were needed. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Which one? We will bring those in the evening. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Anything that the honourable members would like to say? Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: You should say to them what you used to say in the beginning: "Delegation may report back at such and such time." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 12th August, 1974 Mr. Chairman: The House Committee will meet at 5.30. I am saying 5.30 because we have to keep a half-hour margin. A voice: These people should come... in time... Mr. Chairman: 5.30; The quorum bell will start ringing at 5.30. By 6.00 the quorum should be complete. I have given them 6.00 O'clock. Thank you very much. The special Committee adjourned to re-assemble at 5.30 p.m. The special Committee re-assembled after lunch break Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. Mr. Chairman: Call them, seat them outside. Call them too. The Attorney General is coming. Yes, yes, that's right. Call them too, the delegation too. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I was reading that letter of Mirza Sahib that he wrote to the government. The question here was that: "Deal with this self-planted sapling with utmost caution and investigation and instruct your subordinate officials to also keep in mind the proven loyalties and morals of this family and look upon me and my community with special favor." You said that "this self-planted sapling" is a reference to Mirza Sahib's family, not to the community. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1187 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This letter, it goes like this from the beginning: "In the presence of Nawab Lieutenant Governor Bahadur Daam Eqbalahu" Regarding this... (Pause) If I may, it will take a little longer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I was just saying that when you give some clarification about this, about the plant that was mentioned, I was asking you at that time whether it refers to this group or the family or the person of Mirza Sahib? Then you said that no, it refers to the family. So, in this type of Mirza Sahib, more questions arise that this family of yours is a very old Mughal family. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And Mirza Sahib's ancestors came from Samarkand. It cannot be a plant cultivated by the British. Secondly, it cannot be said about Mirza Sahib either that he was a plant cultivated by the British. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, this group only, which is in the British era... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The group, only about it can be said with more certainty that it is not a self-cultivated plant. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, so I am saying, what Mirza Sahib is saying, this is a process of elimination that one... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I can give its answer to you right away. 1188 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 22nd August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Mughal family, sir, he belongs to that family, and this is not a family cultivated by the British, which I have touched upon a little. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The answer is in it if you read all of it from the beginning. If you allow me, I can answer, otherwise... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am only requesting to clarify my question, that this "self-cultivated plant" does not apply to this family, for the reasons I mentioned that it is a family of the Mughal dynasty, a famous, well-to-do family. Secondly, it is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are taking the reason from outside, while the reason is present within it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you will tell us that, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And secondly, this cannot be applied to Mirza Sahib either, except for the Jamaat that came into existence during his time, during the time of the British. And the implication is that the British created or had it created. Please clarify this to remove it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And at the same time, I would like to submit that in the same letter, Mirza Sahib states: "That I have repeatedly announced that I have five major principles." "I have repeatedly announced that I have five principles." And after a few words, he then says: "Fourth, regarding this benefactor government under whose shadow we live, i.e., the English government, not to harbor any mischievous thoughts in the heart and with a sincere heart..." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1189 To remain engaged in his obedience. Could you give some clarification on this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What favors were these? What kindnesses? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. That is exactly it, exactly. Yes, yes, I will try, May it end quickly. This letter starts from here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This, Mirza Sahib! That other one too, you know.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will take that one along as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That one too... you said at that time that it has quite a lengthy answer... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, yes. ..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I didn't think I would ask about that this morning, so that less time is left. It will be necessary for that to come as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will start that immediately after this. Since a new sect of Muslims, whose leader and Imam and Pir is this writer, is spreading rapidly in most cities of Punjab and India, and large numbers of educated, civilized, and respected officers and reputable chiefs and merchants of Punjab and India are entering this sect, and generally..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are you reading this from the beginning? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, from the beginning. Although I will be skipping parts in between: "And generally, the educated young Muslims of Punjab, such as B.A., M.A.s are entering this sect and are being inducted, and a large group has emerged, which is progressing day by day in this country. Therefore, I deemed it appropriate to inform the Honorable Governor about this new sect, as well as all the circumstances related to me as its leader. This need also arose because it is a common occurrence that every sect that emerges in a new form requires the government to inquire into its internal affairs. And often, enemies and selfish individuals of such new sects, driven by animosity and opposition, which are essential for every new sect, convey untrue reports to the government and trouble the government with mischievous informings. Since the government is not all-knowing, it is possible that the High Government, due to the abundance of such informings, may develop some suspicion or be inclined towards suspicion. Therefore, for the information of the High Government, I write a few necessary points below: (1) First of all, I want to inform you that I belong to a family which the Government has long acknowledged as being a well-wisher of the British Empire of the first rank (that family). As Chief Commissioner Bahadur 14 Further, the dates of those letters are very important. One date is before I mention that your claim is from 1891. eighteen ninety one The date of the letter here is earlier, eighteen fifty-eight eighteen fifty eight, the other is 1876 June and the third is 1849. So this is about the family. At this age, one was living life as a young man, and you had no connection to these family circumstances. These are all earlier letters; here, it is stated that the government has always known, these letters have come, that we are not corrupt, we are peace-loving, in terms of family, the matter concerning ourselves has not even begun yet: (2) Secondly, and worthy of mention, is that from an early age until now, having reached the age of nearly sixty, I have been engaged in this important work with my language and pen so that the hearts of Muslims have true love and goodwill for the English Government. and turn them towards goodwill and to remove from the hearts of some of their less intelligent ones the wrong idea of Jihad (the wrong idea of Jihad, that is) that I should dispel. Not against Jihad, to dispel the false notion in the name of Jihad: which prevents them from sincere cleansing and sincere relationships, and in this connection below number two you write that by composing in Arabic, Persian and Urdu, countries informed the people of Islam by sending books: By composing in Arabic, Persian and Urdu, informed the people of the Islamic countries. informed them how we are living in peace, comfort and freedom under the benevolent shadow of the English Government, and such thousands of rupees were spent on printing and publishing books. But nevertheless, my nature did not even want that these continuous services be provided to my rulers I should also mention, because I did not want any reward or prize, but rather one I considered it my duty to reveal the truth. And in reality, the existence of the British Empire was a blessing from God Almighty for us, which we received after a long period of suffering. Therefore, it was our duty to express this blessing repeatedly. Our family was in a severe torment during the days of the Sikhs. They had also stopped our and all the Muslims of Punjab's religious freedom (during the time of the Sikhs, our and all the Muslims of Punjab's). A Muslim feared being killed for the call to prayer. (And there were many such incidents where the call to prayer was given and they were killed). Let alone performing other rituals of worship freely. It was only through the grace of this Muhammadan government that we were freed from this burning furnace (which belonged to the Sikhs). God Almighty sent this government like a cloud of mercy for our comfort (to save us from the torment of the Sikhs, where even giving the call to prayer was stopped). Then further on, after mentioning all those favors, etc. " " But I know this is at the end of the paragraph, three lines above: But I know that they (those uneducated Muslims who hold a false notion of Jihad) are also unaware of the moral teaching of Islam in which it is written that the person who is ungrateful to man is also ungrateful to God. That is, being grateful to one's benefactor is as much a duty as being grateful to God. This is our belief. But alas, it seems to me that therefore the series of eighteen years of writings, which include many forceful speeches of obedience. These concern the government. Our benefactor government has never looked at them with attention, and I have reminded them many times, but no effect has been felt. Therefore, I remind them again to look carefully at the following books and advertisements and read those passages (this is very important; all those books are not about Jihad) and read those passages whose page numbers I have written below. The first two...two pages of the entire book, Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, Part III, is a big book. ...... Only two pages are written about it, and that is also about the reality of Jihad as you understood it. Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, Part IV, four pages. And this notice regarding the extension of Section 298. And the book "Arya Dharam" has about six or seven pages. And next is "Al-Tamass" (The Request). This is an advertisement. It has four pages. And then there is another advertisement, "Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam" (The Mirror of the Wonders of Islam). It is a very thick book, such a big book of several hundred pages, six or seven hundred pages. Out of the six hundred pages of the book, from seventeen to, these are four, and from five hundred and eleven to eighteen, these are seventeen, all these are pages. Announcement in the book "Noor-ul-Haq," from forty to fifty-four pages. And the book "Shahadat-ul-Quran," these are a few pages. "Noor-ul-Haq, Part II," forty-nine, fifty, only two pages of the entire book. "Sir-ul-Khulafa," pages seventy-one, seventy-two, seventy-three. It is not necessary that it starts from the first page, from seventy-one, it starts from any part of the page and ends in any part of seventy-three. Itmam-ul-Hujjah from twenty-five, similarly within three pages, it comes. And similarly, these pages of these books, which consist of thousands of pages, all these pages together do not even make a hundred. 1174 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [22nd August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This "Tohfa-e-Qaisariyah," all the books and all the books after that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Tohfa-e-Qaisariyah," how many pages is the book? It is not even a fifty-page book. And its, the meaning of "all the book" does not mean that this is the entire book, it means that this topic is explained extensively in different places, which is why separate pages were not written. And the main thing is that this book is an invitation to Queen Victoria to accept Islam, and arguments have been given to her regarding the truthfulness of Islam. And along with this, thanks have also been given. Including the advertisement, yes, including the advertisement, it is 24 pages. And this is also where the mistake regarding "Tohfa-e-Qaisariyah" arose! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I was asking you about it in detail because Mirza Sahib himself says that he has written so much that "fifty cupboards would be filled." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am coming to that, I am coming to that. Okay, coming to that means that some people have a wrong impression from this advertisement. It can happen to anyone. I am clarifying this. After seeing these books, everyone reaches the conclusion that you have written, which is this: Can it be suspected that he is not a well-wisher of this beneficent government? The complaints that were going to the government, and I declare to the government with assurance that these reports that are being sent, that he is a troublemaker and a rebel like the Mahdi of Sudan... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1195 is a group, that is wrong. And our true concept of Jihad, which is truly Islamic, has been instilled in the people of the community, therefore, against such a Government that saved Muslims from the oppression of the Sikhs, this will not be treason." (Then within it comes) The very hurtful attacks of the Dulsey priests and the insulting books regarding which you write: "These books were in reality such that if they were not defended freely and some refined strictness was not practiced in return for their harsh words, then some ignorant people would quickly lean towards suspicion and everyone would think that the Government has a special favor towards the priests. But now no one can think that. And due to the publication of counter books, the agitation that could have arisen from the harsh writings of the priests was suppressed internally. And people came to know that our Exalted Government has given complete freedom to the followers of every religion to support their religion, from which every sect can equally benefit. The priests have no special privilege." And then in the next paragraph there is mention of Ummahatul Momineen, which was a very dirty and obscene book and very provocative. And it is stated that "I have done this strictness so that those who are not very educated, get agitated, their remedy could be done." Then further writes, under the same number 2, that: 1196 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [22nd August, 1974 But the religion of Islam does not allow Muslims to speak ill of any popular prophet. Especially regarding Hazrat Isa (A.S.) who is considered pure by common Muslims. And the love and respect with which they view him is not hidden from our government. In my opinion, a better way to prevent such seditious writings is for the High Government to either instruct each opposing party to exercise courtesy and gentleness during their attacks and only object on the basis of books that are accepted and recognized by the opposing party. And the objection should also be such that it cannot be applied to their own accepted books. And if the High Government cannot do this, then it should enact a law that each party should only state the merits of their own religion and not attack the other party at all. I sincerely wish that this happens. And I certainly know that there is no better way to spread peace among nations. "The third matter that is worth mentioning is that I assure the High Government that this new sect that has spread in most parts of British India, of which I am the leader and Imam, is not at all dangerous for the government (regarding the reports that were being sent). And its principles are so pure, clear, peace-giving, and peace-making that the government will not find its parallel among all the existing sects of Islam. The instructions that I have compiled for this sect, i.e., which I have written by hand and printed and given to each disciple, to keep as their code of conduct, those instructions are contained in my booklet which was printed and circulated among the general disciples in January 1889, named CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1197 A copy of the "completion of preaching with conditions of allegiance," was also sent to the government at the same time. It is true that I do not believe in any such Mahdi, Hashmi, Qureshi, bloody JA who, in the belief of other Muslims (here, all Muslims do not mean all, only those whose belief it was), will be from the lineage of Fatima and will fill the earth with the blood of infidels. I do not consider such hadiths to be authentic, and I consider that person to be a storehouse of fabrications. Yes, I claim for myself that Promised Messiah who, like Jesus Christ, will live a life of poverty and will be averse to fighting and wars, and with gentleness and peacemaking, will show nations the face of that true, glorious God who has been hidden from most nations. In my principles, beliefs, and guidance, there is nothing that promotes warmongering or strife. And I believe that as my followers increase, those who believe in the concept of Jihad will decrease. Here, the concept of Jihad does not mean the correct concept, but rather the one that was mentioned earlier, that a wrong concept of Jihad has spread in some minds. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Explain further... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It explains itself further. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It explains itself further. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I am the Messiah..." 33 1198 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 22nd, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Firstly, that God Almighty has stated His principles to be one without partner. (Firstly, these are my principles, my big principles are five.) Firstly, that God Almighty is one without partner, and to consider Him free from every attribute of death, illness, helplessness, pain, suffering, and other unworthy attributes. (And this phrase is a big blow to the Christian religion and their beliefs. I am saying this on my own behalf.) Secondly, to believe that the Seal of Prophethood, the bringer of the final Sharia, and the one who shows the true path to salvation is Hazrat Syedna wa Maulana Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Thirdly, to invite to the religion of Islam purely through rational arguments and heavenly signs, and to consider thoughts of conquest, jihad, and warmongering as absolutely forbidden and impossible for this era, and to those who adhere to such thoughts..." Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: Related, and there are many things that are being said that are going outside the subject. Mr. Chairman: You may contact the Attorney General as decided on the very first day. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please sit down. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Should I start? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please do. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And to consider rebellious thoughts, thoughts of conquest, jihad, and warmongering as absolutely forbidden and impossible for this era. Fourthly, that this benevolent government... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1199 The government under whose shade we exist, that is the British Government, is to not harbor any mischievous thoughts in our hearts (mischievous thoughts) and to remain sincerely engaged in its obedience (Law abiding); fifth, to have sympathy for mankind and to strive to the best of our ability for the betterment of every individual's worldly and spiritual life, and to be advocates of peace and reconciliation, and to spread good morals in the world. These are the five principles that are taught to this community. I left out the fourth one in the middle: (4) The fourth request is that most of the people who are part of my community are either distinguished in esteemed positions in the British government, or are reputable chiefs of this country and their servants and friends, or merchants, or lawyers, or educated English speakers, or such reputable scholars and virtuous and noble people who have either served in the British government or are currently employed, or their relatives, relatives, and friends. (5) The purpose of this request, which I am sending to Your Excellency with the names of the disciples, is that although I am deserving of special favor in view of the special services that I and my ancestors have rendered with sincerity, devotion, and enthusiasm for loyalty to please the British government. But all these matters, leaving it to the attention of the High Government, it is urgently necessary to appeal because I have received continuous news that some envious and malicious people who, due to differences in belief or for some other reason, harbor animosity towards me or who are enemies of my friends, are speaking ill of me. and convey untrue matters about my friends to the esteemed officials of the Government. Therefore, there is concern that their daily mendacious actions may create distrust in the heart of the Exalted Government, lest all the sacrifices of my late father of fifty years and my real brother, and those who are mentioned in government letters, should go to waste and be ruined. And God forbid, the British Government should harbor any resentment in its heart towards an old, loyal, and well-wishing family. It is impossible to prevent such people from speaking, who, due to religious differences or personal jealousy, or some other selfish motive, are bent on false accusations. The only request is that the esteemed Government should (regarding such a family, whose testimonies the English Government has already accepted, regarding such a family) has proven to be a loyal, devoted family (the letters that exist) (has proven to be a devoted family), and concerning whom the esteemed officials of the Exalted Government have always testified with firm opinion in their letters, that they have been staunch well-wishers and servants of the English Government since ancient times. It is said about this self-planted plant family. It is very clear here. About this part of the matter, for which in one of his revelations it was said that your connection with your ancestors will be severed and it will begin with you: These self-planted plant are very clear words that it is said only for his family. It is not said for himself or the community: They have been staunch well-wishers and servants of the English government since ancient times. Take utmost caution, care, and investigation regarding this self-planted sapling. Therefore, we have the right to request the next page (that in consideration of past services, we request full favor and special attention from the Government) (and the request is) so that every person without reason (so much is the request in the entire advertisement) so that every person may not dare to violate our honor without reason, ahead are the names. Next, there are three next ones, right? Take these. Second... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, I have some reservations on this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking because until now, you haven't read the word "Jamaat" (association/community): (Therefore) they should look upon me and my community with special favor and kindness. Our family has not hesitated to shed blood and give lives in the cause of the English government, nor is there any difference now. Therefore, we have the right to request full favors and special attention from the Government in consideration of past services, so that no one may dare to violate our honor without reason. Now, I write below some names of my community. They are giving all of their names as well. IZUZ NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [22nd August, 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, by special favors, it is meant that we should not be disrespected. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, "our" here could mean their family, and it could also mean the party, because they are using both. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they are not giving the family list, they are giving the party list. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: You are right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, look, that's why... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, you are right. But where "Khud Kashta" (homegrown) is written, it is written only about their family from which you are separated. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, it's okay, no, that's why... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: But here, look, here, with full favors and distinctions, the request is for attention, and the request is that "no one should dare to disrespect us without reason." Nothing more than that is asked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, that's it, Mirza Sahib! I was surprised by what I was saying this morning, that you call this government a benefactor government, that there is law here, there is justice. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1203 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Where is that magazine? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here is justice, here is law, after that so much to tell them that our family has served so much, for God's sake, our honor should be saved. Was this government worthy of being praised that after so many requests and flatteries, it should be said, "Please give us protection"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have nothing else here. ....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So this government, that government is not worthy of being obeyed. It was the duty of this government, it was the obligation of the government to every citizen... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Governments sometimes forget their debts. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this. We cannot imagine these circumstances, that they have gone through such circumstances and what has happened. I am not saying anything about that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well, if someone were there at that time, they would tell you how much oppression the Sikhs used to inflict. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right, I understand the historical background. That's why I am saying that these things are surprising. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It has only been demanded that they should not show audacity on unwarranted defamation, and audacity on unwarranted defamation is false information that was being given to the government. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 22, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here is one. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If I may, I also have a journal... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please file it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: ...I want to submit, in which there are many references from this and other sources. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, give it to us. This is on page 340, Mr. Mirza! Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This letter on page 340, the letter in the book... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes (from a member of his delegation). Take it out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you have read some portions, I want to draw your attention to some other portions. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Due to which, they could not be as sincerely and truly well-wishers of their government with utmost foolishness, which is a condition of sincerity and goodwill. Rather, due to the instigation of some ignorant clerics, they did not have the full fervor of the conditions of obedience and loyalty." (They did not have the full fervor of the conditions of obedience and loyalty.) So, not with any pretense or hypocrisy, but purely from the impulse of the belief that God Almighty... ...has placed in my heart, I have repeatedly and forcefully told the Muslims... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1205 has spread that they should adopt the true obedience of the British Government, which is in fact their benefactor. Mr. Mirza! My question from this morning... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, I have taken enough time for this and then I want to come to this side. I said that this letter shows that whatever attacks the Christians made on Islam and blasphemed the Holy Prophet, Mirza Sahib did not respond to them with the spirit of Jihad or the zeal of faith, but to obey the British and to maintain their government, to maintain peace, to cool down the passion of the savage Muslims, that is why he did all this. This was my question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is also written in this what I have just told you, you are writing this, it is in the same place where you have read it, a few lines before: "And the first reason for this intention and killing is that God Almighty has given me insight and guided me from Himself so that I may see with strong hatred and aversion the barbaric thoughts hidden in the hearts of some ignorant Muslims." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's fine, that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "And to preach the original teaching of Jihad within Islam." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this the teaching of Islam? The Jihad is to obey the English, do it with a sincere heart, love the English with a sincere heart? You are saying this again and again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, of that time... 1206 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 22nd August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That would be its historical background. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, we haven't (mentioned) the atrocities of the Sikhs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you are stating it correctly. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The people of that era, very wise scholars of the highest caliber, No, those who came out of that oven, they all, with one voice, thanked God Almighty that He saved us from this torment. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You are right; I do not question this. The Sikhs committed great atrocities; there is no dispute in it. If you would close your eyes, there is no dispute in it. The British government came after that. It was a government of justice compared to the Sikhs; there is no dispute in it. My question is only this: that the one against the missionaries, what was the motivation behind it, so that this is a good government, it should be strengthened, this was the motivation, to obey it. The second thing is that he is the Mahdi. Mahdis come. The Mahdi has to eliminate the pig, kill it, break the cross into pieces. This Englishman came with the cross and the one who rears pigs has come, and the one who eats pigs has come; they say obey him. And up to Iran, up to Afghanistan, up to Egypt, they kept propagating this. So they say. How much difference is there between this Mahdi and that Mahdi? I am bringing these things before you. This that was, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, you can return that again, please, yes, the magazine, that which I had just submitted. In it, Nawab Siddiq Hasan Khan Sahib has, in "Muwahhid al-Qawa'id." There, there is his reference. With great excellence and research, he has explained: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1207 And just as other books from India were distributed to Egypt and Istanbul, and from Peshawar to Tehran, this book will also reach everywhere. That is, this is it, in opposition to Jihad and in obedience to the English. The main thing is that when we separate ourselves from this context in terms of time, it becomes difficult for us to understand these things. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I agree with you because here I have noticed one more thing, I did not point it out because I find it a bit strange that when Mirza Sahib says: (4) The fourth submission is that as many people as are in my community, most of them are distinguished in honorable positions of the English government and are reputable, chiefs and their servants and friends of this country, or merchants and lawyers, or educated English readers, or such reputable scholars and intellectuals. The point is that he was not a prophet of the common people, he only liked the big people to be with him. This is the impression. And nowadays everyone says that the poor are with me. I am their prophet. He says that I am a prophet of big people. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How many big people are there in this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He has given about three hundred, four hundred in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. And in several thousand... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, and then they ignored it. They are not worth it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, they were selected from among thousands of people who could draw the government's attention. It's not like there was anyone of our own in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is possible. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It's not like there was anyone of our own in it... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the era. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just now, the one you, Mirza Sahib!... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This one remains, and you had read three, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the same context? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is finished now. In it, you read three things this morning. If you want, I can leave it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this has already come up quite a bit. I wanted you to provide any answer you had prepared. Time is short. The Speaker is telling me that it is an important matter. Shorten it as much as you can. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because that is important, you had said something about separatism. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. A bird's-eye view of the history of Ahmadiyyat, our life, a few important things have been taken. I started it in 1880. 1884 AD, which is the time of writing "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya." During that time, you initiated a movement for the establishment of unity among Muslims. The establishment of unity among Muslims—let me just read out the heading so that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You brief it. File the rest. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, no, I will read the heading first, then I will give one reference at a time. I will brief it. Support for the Two-Nation Theory: This is between 1880 and 1884. "Jang-e-Muqaddas" (The Holy War) 1893, which is sometimes objected to. Its background is very interesting, and it shows how united you and your community stood up to defend Islam and protect Islam when the question arose with others. This happened in '93. In 1893, the prediction of Pandit Lekh Ram, who did not attack the Ahmadis, but he had such a mind that he attacked the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). "Constitutional Movement Regarding the Defense of the Honor of the Prophet and Religious Brotherhood" In 1895 and 1896, the question arose about the difficulty of Friday prayers for Muslims working in government offices, so they should be given a holiday on Friday or leave for Friday prayers. This arose in 1896. You initiated this movement and tried to get everyone together. In 1896, a religious conference was organized by a non-Muslim organization. And a successful lecture on behalf of the Muslims came at that time. I will only tell its background. 14 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 In 1900, a Bishop George Alfred De France attacked in the same way, and he was very dirty-minded. You confronted him on behalf of all Muslims, and he had to flee from here. Then we come to 1902. This was Dr. John Alexander Dowie, who lived in America. He called himself the Messenger of God. The Messenger of the Lord Jesus Christ, not of God. I made a mistake. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the one who said he had died, I read that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that prophecy is from 1902. And he had said, "I will eradicate Islam from the world." He had made this announcement. And you stood against him, and receiving knowledge from Allah Almighty, you prophesied. And Allah Almighty humiliated and destroyed the one who wanted to eradicate Islam from the world. In 1910, the movement for the establishment of the Muslim Press Association was initiated by the Jamaat, the Muslim Press Association. In 1911, the Ahmadiyya Press supported the Muslim League in 1911. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In 1906, there was opposition. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In 1911, the Ahmadiyya Police supported the Muslim League. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In 1906, you missed a step in between, the one where the Commissioner Sahib comes to meet them... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I'll look into that, it wasn't on my mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They opposed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: At that time. Let's see. Okay. In 1910. I'll look into that. Anyone is welcome to object to me, but it's not on my mind. STATEMENT RE: TARBELA MISHAP. 1211 That was the thing. But it is going to be checked. I don't know what version you have received of it. Figures for Madrasah Ilahiyat in 1910. At that time, Muslims opened a madrasah. Efforts were made for it. In 1918, the Muslims of India were celebrating the victory on a large scale by lighting millions of lamps. The Ahmadiyya community participated in their happiness. Mr. Chairman: We break for Maghrib to re-assemble at 7.30. The Delegation is permitted to withdraw till 7.30 p.m. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Chairman: The honorable members may keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: The honorable members may keep sitting. Yes, the honorable members may keep sitting. A Member: Sir! You have to decide this. Mr. Chairman: Please sit down. Maulana! These are our own things, we are discussing them among ourselves. A principle has been decided. STATEMENT RE: TARBELA MISHAP Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Law Minister. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Sir, what I have to submit has nothing to do with the issue. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: It is a matter of public importance and the Prime Minister has directed me to bring it to NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22, 1974 the notice of the National Assembly of Pakistan as to what has happened at Tarbela. But, since the National Assembly is not in session and there will be a lot of speculations, I would suggest, I would request that permission may be given to me to say something. And this may be reported as part of the proceedings of the Assembly. Mr. Chairman: You have to say it today? Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Sir, it is a matter of great importance. Mr. Chairman: If today, then, after Maghrib, we will hold………….. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: If you permit...... Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad: Many Members. We can meet as Assembly. Mr. Chairman: If it is of that importance, we will, after Maghrib, convert it into National Assembly. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Because already I have said something at Tarbela, Mr. Chairman: There would not be any Reporter or any Galleries; but whatever you say, we will send it to the Press. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Whatever we say, it shall be reported, because...... Mr. Chairman: Any honourable member has any objection? Members: No objection. Mr. Chairman: So, after 7.30, we will meet as National Assembly. I request the members to be present. And we call the Delegation after that. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: All right, Sir. STATEMENT CLOSED 141 Mr. Chairman: They may be informed that they will be called at 8.00 p.m. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: All right. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Otherwise, tomorrow morning, Mr. Law Minister, tomorrow morning, the Senate is meeting; we are not meeting tomorrow morning. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Yes, Sir, because this is....... Mr. Chairman: We will convert it. Yes, it is all right. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Sir, therefore, I have to inform the House. Mr. Chairman: So, the House is adjourned to meet at 7.30 sharp. Thank you very much. The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib Prayers to meet at 7.30 p.m. as National Assembly and at 8.00 p.m. as Special Committee of the whole House. The Special Committee re-assembled after the National Assembly meeting, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. Mr. Chairman: Proceedings of the Committee of the whole house. Mr. Attorney-General, honorable members, and Maulana Mufti Mahmood, now the private discussion should be stopped and we will proceed. Call them, please. Call them, call the delegation. Let them come, please. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, will you continue to reply to that question? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I am just starting. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What you were telling earlier. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I will say one sentence before that. I am very grateful to you that a great landmark was missed, you reminded me of that. The one from 1906. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, that is my duty. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have noted that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I read it on that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, thank you. Universal الحسد of the establishment of Islam, 1920. Protecting the rights of Turkey and Hejaz, 1921. The Shuddhi movement and the achievements of the Mujahideen Ahmadiyya, 1933. Services to the Movement for the Freedom of Syria and Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, 1925. Rangeela Rasool and the Fitna of Vartman and Jihad to prevent it, 1927. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1215 The movement and beginning of the gatherings on the life of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) 1928. Muslim rights and Nehru Report 1928. Commentary on the Simon Commission Report and solution to the political problem of India 1930. The issue of Palestine and the efforts of the Ahmadiyya Community 1939-48. Efforts of the Ahmadiyya Community for the independence of India and the establishment of Pakistan 1940-47. 25. Indonesian Independence Movement and Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya 1944. Pakistan's bright Six lectures by the Imam of the Ahmadiyya Community for the Future 1947. Farman Battalion 1948 Islamic services of Chaudhry Sir Muhammad Zafarullah Khan Sahib 1947 and 1953. These are the topics. This is a cursory look at how, on every occasion, the people of the Ahmadiyya Community and other people from different sects became one and tried to solve the problems of Islam. I missed writing about the Kashmir issue here. By the way, the notes are ready. The Kashmir movement is from 1931-32-33. That too was a jihad against a great tyrannical attitude against a Muslim, and in that, along with everyone, the Ahmadiyya Community also did such a work that was pleasing in everyone's eyes at that time, and those references are present here. "Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya" Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya was written by the founder of Ahmadiyya at a time when he had not yet claimed to be the Mahdi and Messiah. Which has four parts. It was published in 1880-1884. I will read only one excerpt on this. Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi, Advocate Ahl-e-Hadith, wrote about Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya: In our opinion, this book, considering the era and present circumstances, is such that no similar book has been written in Islam until today. And the future is unknown. And its author has proven to be so steadfast in financially, physically, through writing, verbally, in both present and past support of Islam, that a similar example has been rarely found among earlier Muslims. If any Asian considers these words as exaggeration, then at least show us one such book in which all opposing sects of Islam, especially the Arya Samaj and Brahmo Samaj, are confronted with such fervor; and point out two or four such individuals, supporters of Islam, who, besides financially, physically, through writing and verbally, have also taken up the cause of purely devoted support of Islam. And who, in opposition to the opponents of Islam and deniers of revelation, have boldly claimed that anyone who doubts the existence of divine revelation should come to us and experience it, and the taste of this experience has also been given to foreign nations." "Risala Isha'at-us-Sunnah, Volume 7, Number 4 and (11)" - These were only two or three references that we took, but I will not read them, as there is no time left. I only want to give this one reference: that later Maulvi Sahib, Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi separated, the friendship ended, and he became an opponent. But in his entire life, as far as I remember and I can consult with friends, Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi did not refute his statement that this book is indeed like that (to the members of his delegation). Did he ever? Not to the Attorney General, he never refuted it. These are lengthy. I will read just one reference, so that time is not wasted... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are for filing, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. I said the same thing, just allow the pages to be picked up. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, just give us the gist, the gist of it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely, we will provide each reference on it. Establishing Unity Among Muslims: "God Almighty desires..." These are the words of the founder of the movement: "God Almighty desires that all those souls who dwell in the scattered habitations of the earth, whether in Europe or Asia, all who possess a good nature, should be drawn towards Unity and gathered together upon one religion." Above this, this was the claim, right? In its support, here is a small three-line reference. This is from Maulana Zafar Ali Khan Sahib, editor of "Zamindar." At one time "Zamindar" was closed down, so instead of "Zamindar," he started a newspaper called "Sitara Subah." This is from December 1916, as referenced by Khan Kabuli in March 1937. The newspaper reference is December 8, 1916: "A major purpose of the life of Mr. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib of Qadian, with regard to his numerous claims that are in writing, is to establish unity among Muslims." I am leaving the rest of the references. This came in 1906, under another heading... that was our mistake. It is at number three. Mr. Betty Bakhtiar: You had read one sentence. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I will take it out from here and put it in another place. In 1893, a strange incident occurred, and it was that there was a Christian center in Jandiala, Amritsar district, and it was quite large and very active. They were constantly arguing with the local Muslims there, who were not Ahmadis. In the end... Once, the Christians said to the local Muslims there that we keep talking about each other every day. Let's have a debate. So, these Christians of Jandiala, Amritsar district, wrote the following letter to the Muslims: To the honorable Mian Muhammad Bakhsh Sahib and all participants, people of Islam, Jandiala. Sir! After greetings, may your noble face be clear that since these days, there are many religious discussions between Christians and Muslims in the town of Jandiala, and some gentlemen of your religion criticize Christianity and ask and want to ask many questions, and similarly, Christians have also done many researches in favor of the religion of Muhammad, and there is extreme exaggeration. Therefore, in the opinion of the writer of this note, the better and more appropriate way seems to be to hold a public gathering in which the people of Islam, along with scholars and other elders of the religion on whom they are satisfied, are present, and in this way, some credible person should also be presented from the side of the Christians. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION So that the mutual disputes that are happening these days can be well resolved, Good and evil, right and wrong, can be proven. Therefore, since you are considered courageous among the Muslims of Jandiala (to whom he addressed), we, on behalf of the Christians of Jandiala, request you to set a time, either by yourself or after consulting with your co-religionists, and summon whomever elder you are satisfied with, and we too will present someone from our side in the sacred gathering at the appointed time. Sincerely, Christians of Jandiala And Martin Clark, Amritsar Request from the Muslims of Jandiala to Hazrat Founder of Ahmadiyya Order to debate with the Christians: All praise is due to Allah, we praise Him, seek His help, and send blessings upon His Noble Messenger. Respected, generous, reviver of the time, most learned, protector of the religion of the Messenger, Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad Sahib! From Muhammad Bakhsh Peace be upon you. The request is that for some time now, the Christians of Qasba Jandiala have been making a lot of noise. In fact, today, on April 1893, the Christians of Jandiala, through Dr. Martin Clark Sahib, Amritsar, have sent a letter to your humble servant by registered post, a copy of which is on the other side of this letter for your consideration. 1220 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 It is presented to you. The Christians have written with great fervor that the Muslims of Jandiala should hold a gathering of their scholars and other religious elders and investigate the true religion, otherwise they should remain silent from asking questions in the future. Therefore, it is requested in the blessed service that since the Muslims of Jandiala are mostly weak and poor, I beseech you in your noble service to help the Muslims of Jandiala, otherwise the Muslims will be disgraced. Also, after reviewing the letter of the Christians, please write what kind of reply should be written to them. We will act as you command, that's all. During this period, when this correspondence was taking place, some scholars told Martin Clark that this person who is bringing the Muslims of Jandiala against you, against the Christians, is called a 'Kafir' by the Maulvis, and they cannot represent Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From there... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Atham had arrived, Abdullah Atham had arrived there, and Mirza Sahib had left from there. That's the one, isn't it, sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, there was much before that which is hidden. It would be fun if they both came forward for a comparison of both religions. Pandah Sahib started writing letters to the Maulvis, asking them to come to Jandiala for a discussion with the priests on the truth of Islam. Mian Pandah Sahib was waiting for the Maulvis' reply to see what the Maulvis would answer. Two weeks passed in this. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1221 Gone. The Maulvi Sahibs replied to Pundit Sahib that what arrangements have been made for our accommodation, travel expenses, transportation, food, and drink, and what farewell money we will get after the meeting, etc., etc. I am leaving this. At that time, Martin Clark got scared that they are being presented to the founder of the Ahmadiyya series in front of us. On this, Muhammad Bakhsh Sahib wrote this, this is a photocopy of his. In this, he writes to Dr. Henry Clark: To the honorable Dr. Henry Martin Clark, Medical Mission Amritsar. After greetings, it is clear that your letter has been received via registry. All the details are known. According to your writing, the people of Islam of Jandiala have presented Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib from their side for debate, which you have gladly accepted and the conditions of the debate have also been decided in my presence. Now, after a few days, you are trying to avoid this holy war by making an excuse. But what can be thought of you that you have presented these minor issues without understanding, which have always been going on in every religion. You are lost in what thoughts, and your mere ignorance of Islam is proven. If there was some knowledge, you would never have written such a thing. You wanted to avoid the debate by taking cover of Islamic fatwa. But now that time has passed. And there has always been disagreement between Islamic scholars and other religious scholars. See, firstly, the Muqallids call the non-Muqallids irreligious, and the non-Muqallids..." Well, and further he wrote that about them he writes that you have not written to them, further he has written, I have not filed. 1222 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [22nd August, 1974 I will have it done that look at your religion. You have so many sects within you. Inquestion Happened. Meaning the words are mine, I am taking the meaning, I will have it entered later, you have been fighting amongst yourselves, and now you want to run away. Didn't you mention our sects and internal discords here? Listen! Firstly, a disbeliever is one who does not believe in God. Secondly, one who denies His Prophet and His word, but rather is hostile to His Prophet and hates the Kalma, prayer, and fasting. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, they recite the Kalma of the Prophet and offer prayers and observe fasts. In fact, they are great devout and pious elders. Listen and ponder. Look, sir, how great is the difference between the Protestant disbeliever and the Catholic sect. Anyway, this is what he said, and after that, a letter from Hafiz Ghulam Qadir Sahib, of which there is a photocopy: Therefore, currently, a definitive advertisement has been published by Dr. Henry Clark, in which he has clearly avoided the scheduled debate. We congratulate the pastor from the bottom of our hearts on this high level of competence and intelligence, for if earlier Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, like a great calamity (i.e., for the Christians), if earlier they had stirred up a great calamity like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, and now they are devising ways to get rid of it. In this, he is saying why are they trying to get rid of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is with it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is close to that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they will come today. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Consequently, Henry Martin Clark tried to save himself from those Muslims of Jandiala on behalf of whom the Ahmadi sect had nothing to do with Muslims, then he was forced and then the debate took place. And regarding the debate that took place, the organizers of the debate and those people of Amritsar who were present at that time, they expressed happiness and congratulated. The effect it had at that time was a very good effect. In favor of Islam and in refutation of the arguments of the Christians. Khawaja Yousuf Shah Sahib, Additional Magistrate, who continued to attend, thanked them very well for the ending in a brief ceremony when they gathered there. And incidentally, he said that this debate will provide an opportunity to consider the reality of Islam and the beliefs of Christianity. Although Mirza Sahib has fulfilled his official duty, I am especially grateful to him on behalf of the Muslims that he defended the attacks on Islam on behalf of all the Muslims.” This is actually related to that. After that we come, then there is the incident of 1893. Pandit Lekh Ram. Pandit Lekh Ram has attributed to it in Kuliat Arya: "Muhammad Sahib (peace be upon him) was the leader of the ignorant and savage Bedouins of Arabia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Don't read this, there is no need for it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, okay, that is, he said a lot of nonsense. I don't feel like comparing them to this dirty water, the founder of the Ahmadiyya series. After prayers, he said to him that according to the news that Allah Almighty has given me, I say this to you in Persian poetry: "Beware, O ignorant and misguided enemy, fear the sharp sword of Muhammad. Beware, O denier of the glory of Muhammad. He is manifest from the light of Muhammad. Although miracles are without name or sign, come, O Englishman, slaves of Muhammad." And this is the passage from "Siraj Munir," written to him today: "From today's date (February 20, 1893) for some years, this person, as a punishment for his foul language, that is, as a punishment for the disrespects that this person has committed against the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), will be afflicted with severe torment." And as this prophecy was made, I am leaving out the rest of the references because at this time... Mr. Yaki Bakhtiar is known to everyone, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Then we come to 1890. Considering the things that had arisen against each other in the debates at that time, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement announced that leaving aside this kind of foul language, the main thing is to try to understand the truth through dialogue. So, he presented some principles to the religious world. The founder of the Ahmadiyya movement started a constitutional movement to protect the honor of the Prophet and reform religious debates, which was supported by famous scholars, government officials, lawyers, and merchants (i.e., those who were not from the community). And this is a reference to Arya Dharma. On this occasion, Nawab Mohsin-ul-Mulk, praising the Islamic services of the Ahmadiyya community, wrote in a letter: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1225 Respected Maulana and Master: After respectful greetings, the matter is whether your printed letter along with the draft application has arrived. I have read it carefully and considered all its pros and cons. Indeed, the heartbreaking and painful things written and said in Delhi debates and discussions are deeply disturbing. And everyone who has even a slight concern for Islam feels spiritual pain from it. May God reward you for wanting to draw the attention of Muslims to this with heartfelt enthusiasm. This work of yours is among the many things you do for Muslims, and indeed for Islam." In 1896, I read each one; I skip the ones that are too long. Commendation of the Friday holiday. I have mentioned this before. This advertisement was given. And the Baha'i series initiated it, meaning a memorial to the Viceroy of India was given. It was written in it: “This Friday, for which we, the Muslim subjects, are sending this petition for a holiday. Although very important tasks include performing worship in particular and listening to Islamic instructions from our scholars. But many other religious rituals are also performed on this day, and God has emphasized the importance of this day in the Quran so much that there is a special surah in the Quran for its arrangement. Its name is "Surah Al-Jumu'ah". And the order is to leave all work and go to the mosque for Friday prayers. So every religious person worries that we should not be disobedient to God forever. The newspaper "Millat" wrote that Maulana Maulvi Nooruddin, I have told you about 1911, I am just taking a fleeting look: All of us, including Maulana Molvi Nooruddin Sahib, unanimously request with utmost emphasis and respect, on behalf of all associations, Muslim League, respected Muslims, Imami Public, and esteemed contemporaries, that this memorial be strongly supported according to the wishes of Maulana (the honorific title for a respected religious scholar). But he wasn't here, was he? Jumping from "Na" I reached "Aaa." Now I am going back to "Na." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not important, it's a small matter. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it's a very important matter, a very strange matter. The thing is that in 1906, as you said, the Honorable Financial Commissioner came there, to Qadian, and had discussions. The discussions were that the Commissioner Sahib Bahadur, who was, was pressuring the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, a man of the British government, to support the Muslim League that had been formed. And two or three people from the Jamaat (community) were also pressing for this. There was pressure from the government, but you didn't agree. You said it's a matter of interest. You said: "In my opinion, this path is dangerous." It's a long reference, I won't recite it here. And you said that it gives me the scent that it will one day adopt the color of Congress. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It will become against the government. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. This is a matter of 1906 and 1907. In your lifetime, you did not accept the Muslim League at the behest of the British. But when the Muslims there in Bangladesh... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1227 When Hindus caused pain, you made an announcement in their favor. This is the actual point I wanted to make, that there was a denial in 1906, and in 1907, the details of which were published in the newspaper "Paisa Akhbar Lahore" on December 3, 1907: "We have complete hatred for their thoughts and actions." Hindus are mentioned, it happened in Bengal... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was that about Bengal? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. "Our community should stay away from them. It is surprising that a nation that prioritizes an animal over a human being and does not consider it a big deal to spill human blood for the slaughter of a cow, what justice will it do when it becomes the ruler?" (A few lines are missing) "Everyone can easily understand why Muslims are afraid of joining Hindus in demanding their legitimate rights and why they have been refusing to join their Congress until today." (Meaning this is in support of the denial) "And why, after finally realizing the correctness of the Hindus' opinion, they followed in their footsteps, but separately, and established a Muslim association to oppose them and did not accept their partnership, and the reason for this shadow is actually religion, and nothing else." And along with that, he supported it, supported it strongly. And at that time, he must have spoken more in favor of Muslims against Hindus as well. My stance is that he supported Islam and Muslims by working together with everyone. 1896 1228 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 22, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this the same Lahore lecture again? (At this stage, Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Madam Deputy Speaker (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi)) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is a conference of religions. The newspaper "Chaudhvin Sadi Rawalpindi, dated February 1, 1897." This is also its photocopy. I will attach it. "We are not disciples of Mirza Sahib, nor do we have any connection with him, but we can never do injustice, nor can any sound nature and correct conscience allow it. Mirza Sahib answered all the questions as was appropriate from the Holy Quran and all the major principles and branches of Islam were proven and adorned with rational arguments and philosophical proofs. Anyway, thank God that Islam prevailed in this gathering and the seal of Islam was imprinted on the hearts of all other religions." There are more references that I am leaving out. Now we come to the 1900s, the comparison with Bishop George Alfred Lefroy and its reward. George Wilfred Lefroy, 1854-1919, emerged as a challenge for the Muslims on the horizon of India. He created a stir in the religious atmosphere of India. It is written: "He acquired considerable proficiency in Arabic and Urdu. He used to debate with Muslims, which led to the blind Maulvi Ahmad Masih of Delhi being drawn to God. Seeing his hard work, devotion, and genuine missionary zeal, were admirers of Lord Combermere and Lord Curzon. In 1899, he was appointed as the ... of Lahore. As soon as he became Bishop, he made it clear to his English brothers that God has entrusted India to us as a trust. Therefore, we must serve with diligence, otherwise God will surely take account of this trust." This is a reference from his Religious Book Society's book. The Ahmadiyya community challenged this bishop, about whom the priests had written, and he fled. Regarding this, Maulvi Ashraf Ali Sahib Thanvi, among the references of his own brothers, I will take one. Maulvi Ashraf Ali Sahib Thanvi has done a translation of the Quran. The foreword to it, which Maulvi Noor Muhammad Sahib Naqshbandi, of the same faith as him, has written, this is an excerpt from the foreword that I will read: At the same time, Padre Afrai, with a very large group of priests, took an oath and left Dalait that in a short time he would convert all of India to Christianity. He entered India with a great deal of financial assistance from the Englishmen of Dalait and promises of continued future assistance, and caused a great uproar. His attack on the common people that Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, is alive in the sky with his physical body and other prophets are buried in the earth, proved effective in his opinion. Maulvi Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani stood up and said to Afrai and his group, "This is the test that you are talking about. Other human beings have died and been buried like them. And the Jesus whose arrival is foretold, he 1230 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 22nd, 1974 I am. So, if you are fortunate, accept me. With this tactic, he annoyed the Nilferaes so much that it became difficult for him to get rid of them. And with this tactic, he defeated the priests from India to England. Now it is obvious from his words that he is not a friend but an opponent, but he does not hesitate to speak the truth. These are references from "Indian Spectator", "Indian Daily Telegraph". Now we come to 1900-1902, Dr. Dowie was a priest of royal pomp. He was an opponent of Islam and the founder of Islam from the beginning. This is his statement: Recently in America (I have omitted the reference and the text) a messenger of Jesus Christ has been born whose name is Dowie. He claims that Jesus Christ has sent him into the world as God so that everyone is drawn to the fact that there is no God but Christ and that all Muslims will be destroyed and perish. (This was announced by that person). So we Dowie Respectfully submit to Sahib that if Dowie is true in his claim and Jesus Christ is indeed God, then this decision (what is the need to destroy all Muslims) this decision can be made by the death of one man. What is the need to destroy the Muslims of all countries?" But instead of giving up, Dowie increased in arrogance and mischief and started speaking more harshly against Islam than before. The founder of the Ahmadiyya series waited some time. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1231 Afterward, he had his challenge printed and sent there, and it was printed twice in a widely circulated American newspaper. When a year had passed regarding its reaction, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement wrote: "Mr. Dowie, if he accepts my request for prayer duel and stands against me explicitly or implicitly, he will leave this mortal world with great regret and sorrow while I am still watching. So, believe with certainty that a calamity is about to befall him soon." First, Dowie's moral death was that his newspaper at the time was the New York World. That newspaper published seven letters of Dowie stating that he was a bastard, not his father's son. This was his first death. Then, on October 1, 1905, he suffered a stroke. Then, on December 19, 1905, he suffered a second stroke. And on March 9, 1907, he died with great sorrow and regret. It's a very long story, a very painful story. I am leaving it. I am making it very brief, and I am reading quickly, as you are hearing. 1910 The date of the establishment of the Muslim Press Association is February 10, 1910. Through "Kaam," all the Muslim newspapers of India were motivated to unite and establish a Muslim Press Association. So, this was the demand of the time. And all Muslims should do this work unitedly, not just from our side. Anyway, a movement started, and everyone can understand that it was a very beneficial movement. And there was no suspicion of any disagreement, nor was it expressed, neither from our side nor from anyone else's side. There are some references here that belong to others, which I am leaving out. There was a question of aid for a theological seminary. That was also initiated, and it was not related to the Ahmadiyya community. Now we have reached 1918. In 1918, the Muslim community of India celebrated days of joy, and millions of lamps were lit, and gatherings were held, and regarding that, I will read a reference. One is the poems that Allama Iqbal recited and have been published, which are very interesting, worth reading. I leave it here. And Ghulam Bhik Nirang, President of Anjuman Dawat-o-Tableegh-e-Islam Ambala, wrote a poem. I leave that too. This is a popular poem. Khan Ahmed Hussain Khansaheb, a famous author, this one, I leave it. This is "Haq," a newspaper, we will also provide a photocopy of it here. Sheikh Abdul Qadir Sahib, B.A., Barrister-at-Law, Khadim-e-Islam, a well-known figure. He wrote an article on November 23, 1918, it's long, isn't it? This article, yes. I have taken four small lines from it: The twelfth of November, the date when the joys were celebrated throughout the country, will be remembered for a long time, and the joy of this one day washed away many of the hardships of the war. So this is the vein in which the Muslim of that time was speaking. So, in those millions of lamps, the lighting of the lamps used to happen with diyas, bulbs had not yet arrived. If a few hundred diyas were lit by this group of dervishes in order to participate in the happiness of the Muslim community, then it should not be objectionable in our opinion. I, this is all the material, I leave it. Time is very short. Advice to Muslims on the establishment of a universal Islamic association on the Turkish treaty. A very sad incident had occurred, in the manner in which the treaty was made with Turkey, by the Allies and Turkey, meaning Turkey was forced. Regarding this, it is on page one of Al-Fazl, June 3, 1920: The terms of peace that the victorious Allied countries imposed on Turkey were extremely humiliating. To consider a future course of action regarding this treaty, a conference was held in Allahabad on June 1st and 2nd, 1920, under the auspices of the Khilafat Committee. Upon the invitation of the renowned leader of Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind, Janab Maulana Abdul Bari Sahib Farangi Mahali, Hazrat Khalifatul Masih II wrote an article in one day titled "The Turkish Treaty and the Future Attitude of Muslims" and had it printed and sent overnight. In addition to other proposals, one proposal was also presented: "An immediate and universal Islamic model should be established for the progress and welfare of Islam and Muslims." This was a very powerful movement at that time. All things happen in their time. 1921 Protection of the rights of Turkey and Hijaz, on June 23, 1921, a delegation of the Ahmadiyya Community met the Viceroy of India and drew his attention to the fact that we have sympathy with the government of Turkey. If, with the help of the British government, Lorraine can be returned to France after fifty years, there is no reason why Smyrna and Cyprus should not be returned to the Turks. Here, special attention was drawn to the fact that the proposals presented by the Colonial Secretary regarding Hijaz are contrary to the independence of Hijaz. And they were told that after separation from the Turks, there should be no hindrance to the independence of Hijaz, it should be a completely independent country. "The Shuddhi Movement and the Services of Mujahideen-e-Ahmadiyya." Titles written by someone else. If permitted, may I include them here? Mr. Yahi Bakhtiar: No, Mr. Mirza Sahib! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what is there to it? We are humble servants, slaves. A long time has passed, and friends may not have the details in their minds, at least not entirely. A very tragic incident occurred. In the districts of Agra, Mathura, etc., etc., Shahjahanpur, Farrukhabad, Budaun, and Tilhar, there lived Rajput landlords who considered themselves Muslims. However, their lifestyle, diet, speech, customs, and traditions were all Hindu, to the extent that some even had Hindu names. Due to ignorance, they were content in their non-Islamic state, mistaking it for an Islamic one. For a long time, no one paid attention to them. Finding the field empty, the Aryas started the Shuddhi movement with great enthusiasm to merge them into the Hindu nation, sending their preachers to all districts and initiating a highly poisonous propaganda against Islam, which caused an uproar throughout the country. On this occasion, on March 1930, the Imam of the Ahmadiyya community raised the banner of "Jihad-e-Kabir" (Greater Jihad) to save Muslims from the trial of apostasy and immediately sent one hundred and fifty Ahmadi volunteers to various areas under a system, creating a long continuity in this work. As a result, the efforts of these Mujahideen bore fruit, and other friends also arrived, and this trial was stopped. A great flood had come. Muslim newspapers wrote about this, for example, "Zamindar" written by Maulana Zafar Ali Khan Sahib on April 8, 1930: "The sincerity, selflessness, passion, and sympathy with which the Ahmadi brothers participated in this work are worthy of every Muslim's pride." The newspaper "Badam, Lucknow, April 6, 1930" wrote: "The commendable efforts of the Qadiani community are highly commendable in this matter, and other Islamic organizations should follow in their footsteps." These are many newspaper references; I am turning the page, fulfilling my promise. The newspapers "Vakeel Amritsar, Nijat Bijnor" were newspapers from all over India that mentioned "Noor" Aligarh, and then Hindu newspapers also acknowledged it. Now, आगे we move on to the freedom movement of Syria and the role of the Ahmadiyya community in it. After the Great War, France occupied Syria, as everyone knows. There is the area of ​​Druze. Muslims raised the banner of the freedom movement. The French government of Syria bombarded Damascus. On this, Hazrat Imam of the Ahmadiyya Community, in a Friday sermon on November 13, 1925, said in support of the freedom movement: "I cannot refrain from expressing that a heavy injustice has been done in Damascus to those who were already helpless and powerless. The state of their helplessness and powerlessness is such that despite being the owners of their own country, they are dependent on others. In my opinion, Syrians have the right to gain freedom. The country is theirs; they should be the rulers. No one else should rule them. This injustice is further aggravated by the fact that in the last war, the people of Syria helped the Allies and helped with the intention that they would be given the freedom to rule in their own country. How much of an injustice is it then that they are now being enslaved?" So, this is me. The reference is also long. If I leave it, it is evident from the references ahead that I, along with others, put in my best effort to ensure they receive their due rights. Now we come to 1927. "Rangeela Rasool" and "Vartman" appeared on the horizon of Islam. They were flames of fire. There was a great reaction to it. It should have been. "Vartman" is about Arya Rajpal's impure book "Rangeela Rasool" and the heartbreaking article published in the Amritsar magazine "Vartman" against Sayyid al-Ma'sumin, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). I will read out a reference about it from Mashriq, September 22, 1927. What a job, what a tough battle was fought. And this is regarding "Rangeela Rasool": Mr. Imam Sahib (of the Ahmadiyya Community) has done favors to all Muslims. It was by his instigation that the case against "Vartman" was pursued. It was his community that advanced the matter of "Rangeela Rasool", showed devotion, and did not fear imprisonment. It was your pamphlet that inclined the Honorable Governor of Punjab towards justice and fairness. Your pamphlet was confiscated, but its effects were not allowed to fade, and it was written that the confiscation of this poster was merely to prevent incitement from increasing (by the British government) and its redress was made through a very just decision. And at this time, all the sects in India are being intimidated by the British or Hindus or other nations for one reason or another. There is only one community (Ahmadiyya community) that, like the Muslims of the early ages, is not intimidated by any individual or group. And is carrying out special Islamic work." This is Mashriq, September 22, 1927. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1237 And I will only read this one. This is Rais-ul-Ahrar Maulana Muhammad Ali Johar, who is an old Ahrari, there is also a reference to him. It took so long to flip through so many pages. The whole volume is about to end. Just a little bit is left now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If it is too long, we can do it again tomorrow. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, will it continue tomorrow? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is still something left for tomorrow. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay! So no, if that is your wish. But I, I think, can finish in five or seven minutes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's fine, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In 1928, the movement for the Seerat-un-Nabi (PBUH) gatherings started. And the essence of it was that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) gatherings and invite Hindus and Christians and others to speak on the life of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). And what actually happened was that they did not have their own material, nor had they thought about it. So they would take material from Muslims and in a very good manner, they would come there and give speeches, and in this way, the glory and majesty of the Prophets (PBUH), those of their companions, Christians or Hindus, etc., who came because of them, in front of them a bright account of your life would come. Therefore, after saying this, I will do it all like this. The Nehru Report was published. So this is a very cunning nation. And with great cleverness, they had tricked and made such a report that… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everyone knows about it, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there has been a major announcement regarding it by the Ahmadiyya Community. And a two-line summary of that announcement was, that it advised holding an All Parties Muslim Conference, and it should have these proposals. Not only should Islamic rights be protected, but it should also present a complete law regarding all other matters. These two items are left, will we do them tomorrow? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What else is left? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One is Kashmir. That is very important, yes, one is yes, three or four are left. Some are on the Simon Commission Report. I will submit it this way. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mirza Sahib! These are general things. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Palestine issue and the efforts of the Ahmadiyya Community are very important, because objections are raised that Palestine existed before, then Israel was formed, and most people don't even know on what date it was formed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then it will be tomorrow afternoon, they say it is not happening tomorrow morning. 6 o'clock tomorrow? - 3. Madam Chairman: And you don't have any questions to ask? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not now, because he has not concluded. Madam Chairman: So, we meet again tomorrow at 5.30 p.m. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 5.33 p.m. tomorrow? Madam Chairman: 5.30 p.m. tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because there is Senate Session, those journalists come and security arrangements...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So? Madam Chairman: 5.30 p.m. tomorrow. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It's not my right, but may I ask what you think, what is your estimate, will it be finished tomorrow? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, it depends on you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I won't take more than five or ten minutes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, one or two items are left. In my opinion, not much time is left, the effort is the same. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That it should be finished tomorrow evening. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because so many questions are still left. I request the honorable members to give up so that they... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Madam Chairman: Okay. The Delegation is allowed to leave. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Madam Chairman: Those that were to be filed, did you take them all? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Good, so that they are finished. (The Special Committee adjourned to meet at half past five of the clock, in the afternoon, on Friday, the 23rd August, 1974. PCPPL 1097(10) NA-8-2-2011-400. No. 10 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Friday, August 23, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) 1. Written Answers Read out by the Witness. CONTENTS 2. Record of Proceedings of the Special Committee 3. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation. 4. Introduction of Extraneous Matters by the Witness 3. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation-(Continued) PRINTED BY THE MANAGER PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD Pages 1244-1245 1245-1246 1246-1265 1265-1267 1267-1341 No. 10 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Friday, August 23, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Friday, August 23, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at half past five in the afternoon, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN 1243 Malik Mohammad Suleman: Mr. Chairman, Sir. Mr. Chairman: Sahibzada Safiullah. WRITTEN ANSWERS READ OUT BY THE WITNESS Sahibzada Safiullah: Sir! I submit... Mr. Chairman: (To Malik Mohammad Suleman) After him. Sahibzada Safiullah: That it was decided earlier that Mirza Nasir Ahmed Sahib will not read a written statement from his side, meaning if he gives any reference to Bashiruddin Mahmood or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, then he should present an excerpt from the book. But yesterday we saw that he was reading statements from white paper on his own and attributing them to them, meaning it was not clear whether it was actually from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or Mirza Bashiruddin. Secondly, they want to bring up irrelevant discussions here, meaning if the Attorney General asks a small question, then they give all the history and statements in their defense, they give statements written on white paper. So, it is not known whether these are actually excerpts or from their book... Mr. Chairman: (To the Secretary) Call them and have them sit outside. It will take two minutes. Yes? Sahibzada Safiullah: Are these excerpts from their books or from their own side? The way they have a special method, they use manipulation. They still do some such things. So, you take notice of this and you see. Mr. Chairman: No, today, God willing, we will cut it short. And this procedure has been going on for ten days now and a lot of effort is being made to somehow shorten it. And it has also been said that regarding the references, if you want to give your explanation on any of them, write it down and give it to us, we will read it as evidence. Sahibzada Safiullah, yesterday he was reading a paper from which he wanted to prove that we did not light the lamps, but other Muslims did at the time of the decline of the Ottoman Empire, and he was reading a statement on his behalf that such and such Muslims did such and such illumination, that illumination. So, you should pay some attention to this. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Yes, okay. Sahibzada Safiullah: Do not present those excerpts... Mr. Chairman: Okay, keep an answer to that in mind as well. RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE Malik Muhammad Suleman: Mr. Chairman! Mr. Chairman: Yes, yes. Malik Muhammad Suleman: I have received the wheels of these three reports, five, six and ten. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Malik Muhammad Suleman: As far as the reporting of six and ten is concerned, it is written on it that: "Report of the proceedings of Special Committee of the Whole House, held in Camera, on Tuesday, the 6th August, 1974, to consider the Ahmadiyya Issue”. This is not the Ahmadiyya issue. This is the Qadiani issue, so this should be corrected because it can create many problems. And this is completely wrong. This is the Qadiani issue. Mr. Chairman: Very good. Malik Muhammad Suleman: This should be treated as the Qadiani issue. We never decided that... Mr. Chairman: Very good. Malik Muhammad Suleman: ...this Ahmadiyya... Mr. Chairman: Good, we will amend it according to our resolutions. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Since both resolutions were presented, sir, he is right in my opinion. Malik Muhammad Suleman: The resolution should be amended. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Our resolution was also presented. It had "Qadiani issue etc. Christ is ordering." Mr. Chairman: Okay, yes, that's right. (To the secretary) Call them in. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): Sir, Mirza Sahib has to continue his reply. Mirza Nasir Ahmad (Witness, Head of the Ahmadiyya Community Rabwah): Yes, should I begin? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1247 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One significant period in our history is around 1930 when the Simon Commission came here and prepared a report. It announced the Round Table Conference. On that occasion, our Khalifa al-Masih II also appealed to the Muslims to unite and form a united political front, and a comprehensive and thorough commentary was written on it by you. This is a page of history; will the commentary also be there, or should I send it? One of the references I have written... to save your time, because there are some topics that will take more time. "Siasat Lahore wrote: "Leaving aside the religious differences of the time, the work that Mr. Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad Sahib has done in the field of writing and compilation is worthy of praise in terms of volume and benefit. (This is just a side note). And in politics, the principle of action that you have initiated to run your party alongside the general Muslims, and have made it successful under your leadership, also compels every fair-minded Muslim and truth-knowing person to pay tribute." "Siasat" wrote this on the commentary; there are many references in it, which will be provided. I said this because this topic is a brief one. This issue of Palestine—it came before the world from 1939 to 1948, and even somewhat earlier, because I remember in Oxford, I sometimes had to participate in discussions on this topic. In it, Khalifa II wrote: "Al-kufr millatun wahidah" (Disbelief is one nation)—this is in Arabic. And it was sent to all those countries that had relations with them and those who were interested, the Arab countries that... 1248 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 123rd Aug. 1974 are. Efforts were made in England regarding this, under the leadership of the Ahmadiyya community. All the sympathies of the Ahmadiyya press and missionaries were with the Muslims of the world regarding the issue of Palestine. As a result, the newspaper "South Western Star" wrote in its February 3, 1939 issue: A gathering was held at the Ahmadiyya Mosque in London on the occasion of Eid al-Adha, and under the chairmanship of Lieutenant Colonel Sir Francis Younghusband, Imam Shams warned the government (the British government) that the idea of Jews increasing in number in Palestine and dominating the Arabs is extremely frightening and will never be tolerated. The British government must find a fair solution to this. ية الكفر ملة واحدة, this is a good quote, I will not take it now. It's in this. You said: America and Russia, who are enemies of each other, are united in this issue because they see the violation of their intentions in the progress of Islam. (This is in connection with Palestine). Palestine is near the final resting place of our Master. Most of the wars during the Prophet's (PBUH) life were instigated by the Jews. Now the Jews are trying to drive the Arabs out of Arabia. This is not just a matter for the Arabs. The question is not about Palestine, it is about Medina. The question is not about Jerusalem, it is about Mecca itself. The question is not about Zaid and Bakr, it is about the honor of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). Will Muslims not unite on this occasion? Today, resolutions will not work, sacrifices will work. The Muslims of Pakistan should draw the government's attention to the fact that at least one percent of our properties should be taken at this time. In this way, one billion at this time. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADRIANI UKUUP DELEGATION 1449 could collect funds for this purpose (i.e., a separate fund for Muslims), which could solve many of the current problems of Islam." Damascus Radio broadcasted the summary of "Al-Kufr Millatun Wahida" on the radio. Al-Hazaa Newspaper, under the title Publications... I am reading the translation in it: "A sermon by Mr. Mirza Muhammad Ahmad Sahib was received. In this sermon, the speaker has invited all Muslims to unity and has drawn attention to concrete steps to save Palestine from Judaism and Zionism. He has also demanded that the people of Pakistan immediately assist the Palestinian Arabs." The newspaper "Sawt al-Asrar" wrote this commentary on it... on "Al-Kufr Millatun Wahida": "The Imam of the Ahmadiyya community, in his lecture, attacked the Zionist world with full force. The summary of this lecture is that freedom and salvation from imperialist colonialism are not possible without unity and cooperation." Al-Thawra newspaper, Baghdad, wrote on June 8, 1948: "The title of Hazrat Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Sahib's article is 'Al-Kufr Millatun Wahida.' We thank those friends who have published this useful text for their Islamic zeal and Islamic efforts." These are some titles. A small note (pointing to a member of the delegation) was also written by this gentleman. This gentleman has lived there for six years, in Palestine. So this is a page, a page and a half, a short minute: "The Ahmadiyya community established a missionary mission in Palestine in March 1928. At that time, approximately three thousand priests were preaching Christianity in Palestine, and they had numerous missions in the surrounding areas. From the Ahmadiyya mission, Christian priests were 1250 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 Debates took place. Books and advertisements continued to be published in response to their objections to Islam. Then a regular monthly "Al-Bushra" was also launched, in 1933. On behalf of this mission, literature in Hebrew was also published to invite Jews to Islam. From day one, this mission has been informing the local Muslims about the impending danger of Israel, even before the formation of Israel. A detailed article Al-Itrah Maya Wahida was published by Hazrat Imam Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, in which all Muslims were invited to unite and face this danger. All the newspapers of the Arab countries supported this article. On May 26, 1948, despite the opposition of the Muslim world, Israel was formed with the support of America, England and Russia. At this On this occasion, six to seven hundred thousand residents of Palestine had to migrate to Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and other Arab countries. At that time, thousands of Ahmadis from Haifa, Taida and other villages also migrated to Syria and Jordan and are still living in exile. At present, there are more than three hundred thousand general Muslims and Thousands of Ahmadi Muslims exist in Israel. Muslims have their own Islamic Religious Council in Baitul Muqaddas. Muslim Qazis make their decisions. The Ahmadis who are in Israel and those who could not migrate are continuing the Ahmadiyya Mission at their own expense and are inviting Jews and Christians to Islam. Ahmadis have very good relations with all the Muslims in Israel. The first preacher of this mission... leave, it will also come within it. When the question of the Indonesian independence movement arose in 1946, the Second Khalifa of the Ahmadiyya Jamaat also raised his voice in their favor. I am skipping this reference. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1251 When the circumstances for the independence of India and the establishment of Pakistan arose, the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya played a significant role in the efforts and endeavors to gain freedom from the British government. Regarding the effort for the independence of India, the famous Ahl-e-Hadith scholar, Mr. Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib Amritsari, wrote these words: "These words prove what courage and amazement that more than this is not found in Congress speeches. The passion to free forty crore Indians from slavery that is found in the speech of Khalifa Ji is not even found in the speech of Gandhi Ji." This appeared in "Siya Amritsar al-Hadith, Amritsar, July 4, 1935." Then, when the question of forming the Muslim League arose, for example, those who were harmful – a kind of stubbornness arose in their nature at one time. And if he worked for the Muslim League, besides not being ready to leave his post, some friends of the Jamaat, including Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib, had relations with him. They pressured him and forced him to resign. And the Hindu newspapers at that time objected to the Jamaat, saying that they were doing such things. This is from the Munir Committee. I have left out many references... These two or three sentences from the Mir Committee report are interesting for all of us: "The President of this Court..." No, this was the Boundary Commission: "The President of this Court, who was the seal of this Boundary Commission..." 1252 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 23rd, 1974 No, no, it's from the Munir Committee, Munir was there, wasn't he? They are talking about that time. "...Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan, in the matter of Gurdaspur, I consider it my duty to express gratitude and satisfaction for his selfless services to the Muslims." This is in Munir's report. This is also from Muhammad Ibrahim Sahib Mir Sialkoti. The heading is a quote. This book is from one of our famous scholars, Maulana Muhammad Ibrahim Sahib Mir Sialkoti, not Ahmadi, meaning from other Muslims, this is his quote, interesting: "The esteemed but impudent son of a sincere friend of mine, Hafiz Muhammad Sadiq Sialkoti, has objected to the Ahmadis' support of the Muslim League, and a person from Amritsar has also asked. So let them know that firstly, I am not responsible for the Ahmadis' participation..." The objection was on them, wasn't it: "...because I am neither an office bearer of the Muslim League nor a candidate for membership on their or anyone else's ticket, so the answer is not my responsibility. Furthermore, the Ahmadis coming under this Islamic banner is proof that the Muslim League is indeed the sole representative party of the Muslims. The reason is that the Ahmadi people cannot join the Congress because it is not purely a Muslim party. Nor can they join the Ahrar because they do not fight for all Muslims, but only for their own Ahrari group, which is supported by the Congress party. And CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1253 In the interpretation of the Hadith "Ad-Deen An-Nasiha," the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself has included goodwill towards all Muslims in the interpretation of "An-Nasiha." Yes, at this time, the Muslim League is the only party that is purely for Muslims. All sects of Muslims are included in it. So, Ahmadi gentlemen, considering themselves an Islamic sect, have joined it, just as Ahl-e-Hadith, Hanafi, Shia, etc., have joined. And this is an admission that Ahmadi people are one of the Islamic sects. Maulana Abul Kalam also acknowledges this. Ask him; if he denies it, we will show it in his writings." Then in 1947... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, after coming here, after Partition! Mirza Nasir: In Lahore, for the bright future of Pakistan, there are pictures of the Imam of the Ahmadiyya Community that were very popular at that time. Instead of reading it, I'll just leave it all here. Now, the question that remains is, which is very strange to me... Undivided India. There are many things about the circumstances of that time, and since I will provide the references, I want to briefly explain a little. The circumstances of that time, in my opinion, were that the British were ready to give independence to India. And there was no such organization of Muslims that could fully protect their rights in their representation. The Muslim League came into its own later. The question of undivided India... In my opinion, at that time, the question was not of undivided India, nor of Pakistan. The question was, the question was... I regret that I could not obtain the correct statistics, I had told the person... in all of India, I think there would probably be some twelve, fourteen crore Muslims. But... correct me here... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What time period are you talking about, Mr. Nasir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I, this is around nineteen thirty to forty. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Around seven or eight crore. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Total? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Some days after the creation of Pakistan, they used to say: one hundred million Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, how many million did we leave there? How many crore in India remained? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Currently, there are 4 crore now. At that time, there were three or four crore. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: At that time, it was five, six crore, seven crore. I just didn't have these figures in my mind. Yes? Four crore? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Four crore. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Four crore. So, it comes to about ten crore Muslims in total, ten, eleven. So, at that time, the question was how to protect these ten crore Muslims who live in India, who do not have a strong organization of their own, how to protect their rights. At that time, Muslims came into two schools of thought, two ideologies. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza! Here, you say this time is 1930 and 1940, which is a very long period, specify a particular period... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What I mean is when England was ready to grant independence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: England was never ready, as far as I think, the war ended, after that… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When the wise sensed that if efforts were made, we could be free. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it is a matter after the war ended. In those times, there was no question of it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Simon Commission this that - - - - Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that was... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning steps were being taken towards independence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, well, call them concessions… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anyway, I am just giving my perspective. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Call it a concession. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There came a time. Take any time... when the question was of protecting the rights of all the Muslims of India. At that time, the Muslims of India were divided into two groups. One thought that the rights of all the Muslims of India could be better protected if they stayed together... I am just taking an outline... and the other later thought this. Yes, at that time, our Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah also thought that the rights of all Muslims could be better protected if they stayed together. So, Rais Ahmed Jafri has written this, taken from his book, from pages 200 and 201, he has written about Quaid-e-Azam that: 1256 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 123rd Aug., 1974 I am surprised at what had happened to my national self-respect and dignity. I used to beg Congress for reconciliation and understanding. I made such continuous and uninterrupted efforts to solve this problem that an English newspaper wrote: Mr. Jinnah never tires of the Hindu-Muslim unity issue. But the Round Table Conference (which I mentioned above) gave me the biggest shock of my life during the time of the Round Table Conference. (Take the same time). As soon as the signs of danger became apparent, Hinduism became so prominent in terms of heart and mind that the possibility of unity was खत्म ही ख़तम हो गया. Now I was disappointed. Muslims were helpless and wavering. Sometimes they would come to the field to guide the loyal friends of the government. Sometimes, they would start performing the duty of leading the Congress in a humble manner (especially its leadership). I now felt that I could not help India, nor could I bring about a pleasant change in the Hindu mentality, nor could I open the eyes of the Muslims. Finally, I decided to live in London. Yet, I maintained contact with India. And after staying for four years, I saw that the Muslims were in danger. Finally, I packed my bags and reached India. And after coming here in 1935, I negotiated with the President of Congress for resistance and reconciliation in connection with the provincial elections, and we both formulated a formula. But the Hindus did not approve of it and the matter ended." So at that time, you yourself wrote that you were trying for reconciliation and understanding. He was doing this because he had pain in his mind for the Muslim, in the hearts of those elders. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1257 And their effort, their thought was that all Muslims, the ten crores that were at that time... now have increased... if they stay together in India, and get their rights, constitutionally then it is better. But the Hindu mindset did not accept this thing and they expressed as if they wanted to rule over Muslims, wanted to keep them in their slavery. At that time, Muslims were divided into two parts. For one, it was not possible to come to Pakistan practically, they are living there, at this time crores of Muslims are living in India And it became possible for one. Later, the circumstances became such. This effort towards which Jinnah Sahib pointed, it was of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya at one time. If all the Muslims of India stay together, then they can protect their rights well. When the signs of the formation of Pakistan were emerging, then those people who had the second view, which was that everyone should stay together, or those people whom the Congress government would have bought, nothing can be said. My nature naturally inclines towards حسن ظن (good opinion). Anyway, they have a small support of power for themselves... the Jamaat is very small that it is weak... what did they do that... this propaganda started in the Jamaat that "Why do you want to go to Pakistan, they always treat you harshly. What happened in Afghanistan, what happened in such and such place?" At that time, Khalifa II openly said that at this time the question is not that the interests of the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya should be looked after, at this time the question is how the Muslims of India can live a life of dignity how their rights can be protected. If, hypothetically, the same treatment is meted out to Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya after the formation of Pakistan, with which you are scaring us, even then I will say that Pakistan should be formed and we will go with them. Somewhere they did this propaganda... I myself am a witness, I was sitting with the Muslim League during the struggle of 1947, their party, even in Shimla, what was happening there, yes, this was the gambling going on. So the Partition Commission Even in Shimla, I stayed with them, we sat together, we made efforts together. At that time, it was becoming clear that they were being mischievous. The Hindus, even then... By "us" I mean the whole party that was there. We had found out about this early on. There's no need to go into those details... or their intentions. They were making promises. Mr. Radcliffe, who had clearly indicated and promised that all of Gurdaspur and most parts of Ferozepur would go to Pakistan. But there we found out that they were cheating and went there to inform... so we became completely united and joined in this struggle, in this fight, in the war that was happening. And now when I think about the people who made sacrifices like ours, for the creation of Pakistan, the families who are coming to Pakistan, they... and I have been in the middle of the war. According to my estimate, fifty thousand to one hundred thousand of our women have been violated for Pakistan. And there is no count of those who have been killed. Sikh have pierced Muslim children with their spears, tossed them up in the air. I am a witness to all of this. I have come here last of all. And have made a big sacrifice. But those who were left behind have also made no less of a sacrifice. They are still sacrificing. Instead of us thinking together, that we can do from the outside for the rights of Muslims who have remained in India, our circumstances have changed, we should make a program for their rights, do something to encourage them. There are many other ways. Not only by being in the government, but from the outside too, we can do a lot to serve them. Those who have made sacrifices like ours, not more than us, but like ours, in the creation of Pakistan, and they could not come to Pakistan, they are stuck there. Instead, now it has become clear to us that our East Pakistan has also been separated. So, in my view, there is no objection, in this background, because of that, I do those references well. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Furqan Battalion... it is small. Objections are raised against it in big newspapers, that's why I am taking it up. So, Furqan Battalion, I will also do this, I will briefly tell you verbally in two or three minutes. When Pakistan was formed, the war started in Kashmir. At that time, the situation was such that our armies could not be openly committed there. At that time, there were many volunteer battalions in Kashmir. At that time, our proud Pathans of the frontier came with their armies and the Pakistan Army was not committed in the way an army is committed. Since there was a need for volunteers at that time, we had no intention in it. I can swear and say, I know this, that the army was insisting on the Khalifa to raise a battalion, we need it. And they were saying that I have considerations and things related to us, why are they bothering us. They said if you care that they should be stopped on the front, then prepare an army, give us a battalion. On their insistence, a volunteer battalion was prepared and they had no experience of fighting. A camp was set up in Isra-e-Alamgir. There, two or three months of training took place. But the passion was such that a young man came there as a volunteer, a young man whose height was very short. And when they took him for marching and target practice, it was found that his finger does not reach the trigger properly, his hand is so small, and he was adamant, "I have to go to the front." Then they said, "Okay, then show us how to fire a rifle." So he put the butt of the rifle here, instead of placing it here, he twisted like this and fired there. Seeing his passion, the army officers who were regular officers for the training of Furqan Battalion etc., they gave him permission. With that passion, they went there. There, arms were issued as the army issues arms, well, what happened is not all necessary here. It was disbanded. Now all 1260 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 The world knows. Army officers are here. Now the objection is that all the rifles that were given to the Furqan Battalion, that Furqan Battalion ran away with them and they buried them inside the hills of Rabwah. This question can be solved in a minute. The army who issued these, ask them whether they got back each rifle, each round or not. And the commander-in-chief at that time gave a very high-level certificate to this battalion and with thanks, sent them there without arms. This battalion was not issued any uniforms. They wore torn uniforms from Landa Bazaar, and in the rains, some didn't have a shirt, or a sleeve, and some had sleeves hanging. And this is not... a torso. My eyes have seen them fighting the enemy like this. And in any case... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Excuse me, this question was not asked at all. If outside matters come up, of this kind, like what the newspapers write... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it's fine... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... I'll stop. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, not like that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You must continue. But I am requesting that no one asked this question. But I did not ask about Furqan Force on any stage. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I wrongly foresaw it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I did not ask. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1261 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No sir, no, I have just apologized, I will not say another word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you complete it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I will not speak. No, it is my mistake, a mistake of estimation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, you can say it. If you want to explain something which you think is against your interest...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no not now. If you had stopped me earlier, I would have stopped. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I think that if you want to say something, it is okay, otherwise we have not asked any question of this kind.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... nor was it on the list to ask. Even if it were, I would have told you that you can do it for sure. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there is one more question, I would have asked it anyway. Instead of wasting time. Chaudhry Muhammad Zafarullah Khan Sahib has served the Arab countries so much. I have references, filled with praise for him. So I will not say anything further. Yes, Kashmir is left. Of 1931.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You mentioned it, the Kashmir Committee. If you want to say something else, then say it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maybe there is a sentence or two. I will briefly highlight it now. It started like this, the Kashmir Committee, the committee that was formed under the name of the Kashmir Committee, that on July 13, 1931, in the state ILVE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug., 1974 21 Muslims were martyred and hundreds injured by police firing. On July 13, 1931, when When the Dogra government martyred 21 Muslims, it was very difficult for them to write outside the state. So they smuggled out, the Muslims of Kashmir, a man, and Sialkot Reaching there, they sent wires to different places, and also sent a wire to our Khalifa Sani. As a As a result, the first thing that happened was that Khalifa Sani sent a wire to the Viceroy of India, like the Muslims of other provinces. The Muslims of Punjab also, they were told to get together, that is, the work started from the beginning. At that time, when this announcement was made, Khawaja Hassan Nizami Sahib wrote a letter to Hazrat Khalifa Sani. and said that you have made this announcement, we are with you, and we should all Muslims do this work together. Mr. Chairman: We break for Maghreb. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think let them conclude it, Sir. Mr. Chairman: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It will take two or three minutes, Sir. Mr. Chairman: All right, then not more than five minutes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not more than five minutes. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Finish it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: So there was announcements etc., correspondence. After that, an appeal was made to the Muslims of India for the establishment of the All India Organization, first and then after. Then an appeal was made to the Kashmiris, the sons of Kashmir, that is, the Kashmiri families who had come and settled outside. And in it you wrote that: I hope that Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal Sahib, Sheikh Din Muhammad Sahib, Syed Mohsin Shah Sahib and similarly other prominent sons of Kashmir who have love for their homeland I am no less than anyone else, and while writing about the importance of this opportunity, I will try to end the current state of chaos. Otherwise, there is no doubt that all power will be lost and nothing will come of it. On July 25, 1931, a meeting of Muslim leaders of India was held at the residence of Nawab Zulfiqar Ali Khan Sahib, "Fair View," in Shimla, in which it was decided that an All India Kashmir Committee should be formed to take responsibility for all this work and bring it to completion, and that this campaign should continue until the residents of the state obtain their legitimate rights. In addition to the Imam of the Ahmadiyya community, the following leaders participated in this meeting: Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal Sahib, Hazrat Khawaja Hassan Nizami Sahib, Syed Hassan Shah Sahib, Nawab Sir Zulfiqar Ali Sahib, Nawab Muhammad Ismail Sahib of Ganj Pura, Khan Bahadur Sheikh Rahim Bakhsh Sahib, Maulana Noor-ul-Haq Sahib, owner of the English daily "Muslim Outlook." Maulana Syed Habib Sahib, owner of the daily Siasat, Abdul Rahim Sahib Dard, Maulana Ismail Sahib Ghaznavi, from Amritsar, representative of the Ghaznavi family, Representatives of the Muslims of the Jammu Province, Representatives of the Muslims of the Kashmir Province, and representatives of the Frontier Province. As soon as the All India Kashmir Committee was established, all of them became its members in this meeting. The work began. The background to this is that some friends at that time said that the Second Caliph That you become its president, and you refused that "Do not make me president, I am ready to do any service, but do not give me the post of president to understand any expediency there." On this, all who were there, they insisted there, including Sir Muhammad Iqbal Sahib, that you should be made. Therefore, you were forced to accept this position. Accepted. The work started, and many stages Went through. Further, I will do it on my behalf, I will shorten it a little. There was money. That At that time, money was needed to work in India. And to help the Kashmiris Need money. So everyone must have contributed. But more than his capacity Money was given by the party to help the Kashmiris. At that time a question arose Of volunteers to go and encourage them, to organize them. The condition of Kashmir itself is organizationally Was very backward, everyone knows. Our, that is, more than the conditions of India at that time They were behind too. Its Maharaja had a very tight hold. Well, they left. One A time came when they started making cases in a very cruel manner, that is, none of them There was no sin and a case was made. So at that time he said, send a telegram to send us a lawyer. We have. They were in great trouble. Eleven or twelve lawyers went from here. One of them Sahib, pointing to a member of his delegation) is sitting here. They spent months there Worked. And I think that almost all the cases were won by the Kashmiri Muslims. Some of them have passed away, Sheikh Bashir Ahmed Sahib, who has also been a judge of the High Court, At that time he was a lawyer, he left. Propaganda was done for them all over the world, especially in England. so A long struggle for them... (said to his companions) Is there a list of martyrs in it? Who went to the volunteers? (To the Attorney General) The volunteers who went from here, the others Also, they were treated harshly, all of them, here, there is no difference there, this Ahmadi, this is Wahhabi or this is, that is. All are involved in the struggle of the Muslims of Kashmir, together. I was hinting at the fact that we never separated. Mr. Chairman: The delegation is permitted to withdraw for Maghreb to report break at 7.30. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will finish this. They will come and submit it. Mr. Chairman: The honorable members may keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Seven thirty, yes. The House is adjourned to meet at 7.30. The Special Committee adjourned for Maghreb Prayers to re-assemble at 7.30 p.m. The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghreb Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in Chair Mr. Chairman: (To the Secretary) Call the delegation, have them sit outside here, yes, because then At quarter to eight, nine o'clock, we will do until quarter to, then a one hour and ten minute break, then nine to ten. Yes, Maulana Abdul Haq Sahib! INTRODUCTION OF EXTRANEOUS MATTERS BY THE WITNESS Maulana Abdul Haq: Yes, the request is that yesterday he gave a speech for almost two hours, and today he is also presenting or recording his history. Our question to the Attorney General was regarding the loyalty to the British that you presented, what is the reason for that? Or you call Muslims infidels and complete infidels, do not participate in funeral prayers, do not marry, do not participate in worship. Now they say, we did not say to Muslims. It is like a NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 123rd Aug. 1974 If a person asks someone what something is? He says "dog." Now he says, "I give it water too, I give it bread too, I give it space too." The main point is that whatever is asked of them, our Attorney General should just answer it. The other two hours of talking, God knows what wisdom is in that. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General to satisfy all the honorable members. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will try, Sir. Maulana! The thing was, I asked them if they were separatists, if they lived separately from the Muslims. I gave them several references. They didn't answer the references, but said that no, they struggled with us. For freedom. That's why I said, okay, let them speak. This... yes, this is right. It ended, it was very long. Mr. Chairman: Yes, call them. Call them, they are sitting outside, call them, yes, call them. Maulana Abdul Haq: I want to say this, speak to the point. Mr. Chairman: Have they arrived? Maulana Abdul Haq: Yesterday you said that after this meeting we will ask. Mr. Chairman: Yesterday I came, and the House adjourned. We will do it today. Maulana Abdul Haq: Keep a note of it. Mr. Chairman: We will do it today. After this. You were being waited for, especially Noorani Sahib. Yes, call them in. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1267 Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, Mirza Sahib! Have you finished it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, since time is running out, I want to be very brief. Many things have come up, you have said many things about this freedom struggle. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have said a lot about the freedom struggle. I don't want to go into much detail about it. Regarding the Boundary Commission, you read a reference from Munir Sahib's committee report that Chaudhry Sahib made a lot of effort in it. Everyone has read that. He was representing Pakistan. And there is no doubt that he made a great effort. I have neither asked any question on this nor is there any dispute on it for us. But one thing that Munir Sahib said later, maybe you have read it, in the Pakistan Times on June 24, 1994, he wrote two or three articles during that time... "Days I remember" - Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have not read that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you may not remember it, even if you have read it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have not read it, ten or twelve years ago... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it's a matter of ten years. So there, Munir Sahib says... 1200 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 123rd Aug. 1974 "In connection with this part of the case, I cannot refrain from mentioning an extremely unfortunate circumstance. I have never understood why the Ahmadis submitted a separate representation. The need for such representation could arise only if the Ahmadis did not agree with the Muslim League's case-it self a regrettable possibility. Perhaps, they intended to reinforce the Muslim League's Case; but in doing so, they game the facts and figures for different parts of Gash Shankar, thus giving prominence to the fact that, in the areas between the river Bein and the river Basantar, the non-Muslims Constituted a majority and providing argument for the Contention that if the area between the rivers Ujh and Bein went to India, the area between the Bein river and Basantar river would automatically go to India. As it is, this area has remained with us. But the stand taken by the Ahmadis did create considerable embarrassment for us in the case of Gurdaspur." You stated this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Didn't they write this in their committee's report? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that they wrote an article in June 1964, I am referring to that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, seventeen years later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Quite a while later, ten years later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Seventeen years later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, essentially, I wanted to submit that you cooperated with the Muslim League, and it was such a stage that the British Government and Congress had also acknowledged that it was the sole representative party of the Muslims, the Muslim League... I am talking about '46, '47... it was the sole representative, but that doesn't mean that every Muslim was in it.... LAUAD CASADENA LIVIX OF ENG YADWANI GNQUE UGLDAJAD JUIN 1209 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. this was Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... but that she was representing, the only voice was 3 the most representative body - the only representative group, she had accepted. When they gave the memorandum, even here Munir Sahib says, about giving a separate memorandum. We didn't understand, rather it created concerns for us, we felt embarrassment. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Seventeen years after '47, he expressed this, that "I didn't understand." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, but he didn't write it in his report. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He didn't write it in his report. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, not Munir Sahib, you have read his report, haven't you? So I can explain it to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that there is a man... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... who was also a judge of the Boundary Commission. So in that report also he was the same judge. Then in the report, he gave Chaudhry Sahib a good certificate that he had pleaded Pakistan with great effort, with great dedication. After that, seven years or ten years later... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, 47, 66, 65, 57. BAHOANAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 143rd Aug. 1914 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am saying the same thing. We were in the Remez Boundary Commission that time. Then after that, in 1954-53, that inquiry was happening. So, Chaudhry Sahib, referring to the service he did in '47, mentioning that in it... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is what I mean, that this incident is seventeen years later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, after that, then this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, seventeen years later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...is, this is in 1964. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, from '47 to '64. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, so after seventeen years of silence, when he had also become quite old, perhaps it is possible that due to old age, he might not have understood the thing that he understood in his youth. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a good answer. Well, I just wanted to draw your attention to it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is... if you want, I can tell you... they, the Hindus, did a very cruel mischief and the mischief they did was... I told you that I was working in those days... First, they did this mischief that the Ahmadiyya community, others Muslims call them infidels, therefore their number should not be included in the Muslims of Gurdaspur. And in the Gurdaspur district, there was a difference of 51 and 49, meaning the Muslims... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know that, we know that. UKUS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI DROGE UBLAŽA Í BÚIN Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, let me tell you an inside story... another mischief. Another mischief was done by our own people that although the Muslim population in Gurdaspur is 51 percent, but the young, minor children, who are not adults, are far away, the decision should not be based on them. And they just spread the rumor that the adult population of Hindus is greater than Muslims. Since I have been studying different subjects in my life, I offered the Muslim League that if I am given three calculating machines, I can take the census of '35 in one night. It is for separate districts, isn't it... so I can give you this data tomorrow that even the adult population of Muslims is greater. The Census report, at that time, was detailed. Later, I don't know why, they abandoned it. The Census report of '35 gives the mortality of different age groups, percentage, meaning that so many percent of children of four years of age die, so many percent of children of five years of age die. So, thousands of divisions had to be made, because for every age group, the Census of '35 was with us, so to reach '47 to make adults, some who were adults were there. So, after extracting these thousands, three or four other men worked with me all night. The calculating machines themselves came from the offices of the Muslim League. And in the morning, a statement was given to Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib that they are saying the wrong thing. And when it was presented, the Hindus were completely stunned. They had no idea that a Muslim mind could also do this calculation. Those were the kinds of mischiefs. And that was the kind of cooperation we had with the Muslim League. And all this happened for their sake, with their advice. So, when Justice Munir Sahib got old, he forgot, he couldn't understand. We have no objection. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza Sahib! I would like to submit to you on this point that you said that this happened with the advice of the Muslim League, that a separate memorandum should be given. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was the separate memorandum given with the advice of the Muslim League? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: With their advice. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Quaid-e-Azam's protest was exactly this, that Muslims are going separately and giving their own memorandums, and we are troubled by this. And Munir Sahib says that we were embarrassed by this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And they announced this embarrassment seventeen years later! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, can you tell me any newspaper of that time in which it is, in which it is that this memorandum was submitted with the support of Quaid-e-Azam or the Muslim League? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It was announced in "Nawa-i-Waqt" at that time that the Muslim League gave time out of its own time to the Ahmadis to present the memorandum. Is this not proof that this was done with the advice of the Muslim League? And otherwise, what was the need for them to give time out of their own time for the Ahmadiyya community's memorandum. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who represented them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad, is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who represented them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whose? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Of the Ahmadiyya community? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sheikh Bashir Ahmad Sahib. But the main thing was that everyone was going together. You understand my point, right? If the Muslim League gave time from its own time for the Ahmadiyya community's memorandum... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Muslim League's time was in Chaudhry Sahib's hands. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And Chaudhry Sahib was a rebel against Jinnah? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, absolutely not. I do not deny at all that Quaid-e-Azam appointed him; he was their representative. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This Chaudhry Zafarullah... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I, look... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib... Now you have said this two or three times in this House, to explain to me, to intimidate me a little, that "I am, I represent my client, I represent this House as Attorney-General." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, I said that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, listen to me. Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib could not have made this decision on his own. Understand? It cannot enter anyone's mind that he would have decided on his own to give time to the Ahmadiyya community from the Muslim League's time, and there was no protest at that time. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 143rd Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying, do you draw this inference from it, that Muslim League's support was gained? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I draw this inference from it that it was absolutely an effort with mutual consultation with the Muslim League. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no proof of this except that time was given? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One proof of this, I am giving... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...that Muslim League gave time out of their time, and in my opinion, this is enough. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If a reference is needed, should I give it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, if... you send it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, if you need it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, you have said it and it is on record, indeed, if you want to file it, then do so. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "It is in the publication of Nawa-i-Waqt Lahore of August 1, 1947." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: File this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. This is just a little bit. (To a member of his group) Where is that Bahawalpur one? (To Attorney General) This is it. The meeting of the Boundary Commission was held. Due to censorship restrictions, we did not print the proceedings of the meeting. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI HEAD It is not possible, nor is commentary possible on it. The commission meeting lasted for ten days. Four and a half days Were reserved for the Muslims to speak, were specified. From the Muslims' Time, their other supporters were also given time. This memorandum that we have filed Has internal evidence within it, internal evidence that... _the document speaks for itself Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar no, that's fine, Now you have also mentioned the services of Chaudhry Sahib. And recently Chaudhry Sahib A statement was also published. It is possible, you have seen it. In which he... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I would like to see it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar no, I am... International Red Cross Amnesty International, Commission of Human Rights appealed that Ahmadis are being oppressed in Pakistan, they should go there, is there any such statement in your knowledge? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I have heard it from some officers... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar no, because I also... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: But if there is a copy of it... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar no, we will give you a copy of it. But did such a statement come? I said if you know about it, I will ask more questions, otherwise it will be for tomorrow, that's why. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If you want to close it today... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Huh? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If you want to close it today... 14/0 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (23rd Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is my effort. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: .... Then I will try to give as much as I can, to answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I say this because such a statement of yours.... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I have not read the statement. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You may not have read it. But you heard that Chaudhry Sahib appealed... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, I heard about the matter from some people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Appealed... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I heard from some people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Appealed to international bodies to go to Pakistan? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What was the date of this statement? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is after the incident of Rabwah. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, what date? The date is very important. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Its full text was published in "Jasarat" here. Perhaps some other newspapers... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I do not read "Jasarat." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it may have appeared in some other newspapers as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, on what dates? I only ask that much. Do you have any idea? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think it would be in the beginning of June. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In the beginning of June. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI HEAD Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, because the Rabwah incident was on May 29th, a few days after that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Four, five, six, seven days after. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, these were the days... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When all the shops of Ahmadis in Gujranwala had been burnt down! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I don't want to go into detail. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, no, I didn't understand the question anyway. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they said this, I am saying it myself, they say that the oppression that has been inflicted on Ahmadis, I said that day as well, I said that we condemn oppression against anyone. It is wrong to say that Ahmadis are not our brothers. It is wrong that Ahmadis are not our brothers, are not Pakistanis, do not have citizenship rights, I am not saying this. It is the government's duty to condemn oppression against anyone, this is what I said. The question was, Mirza Sahib! That Chaudhry Sahib appealed to international bodies, agencies, the Red Cross, the Commission of Human Rights, Amnesty International, to go to Pakistan, that oppression has been inflicted on Ahmadis there. You were mentioning that oppression is still being inflicted on Muslims in India, several hundred Muslims were killed in Delhi some time ago. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Chaudhry Sahib didn't make any appeal about them, have you heard, to international bodies, to go there, that oppression is being inflicted on Muslims? Have you heard that two or three months ago, four months ago, there was a lot in Delhi... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. 1278 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 23rd Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...That has been going on for quite some time... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, since the partition. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Many Muslims were killed. So did Chaudhry Sahib issue any statement on this, hold a press conference for Internal Amnesty, Internal Red Cross, or the Commission of Human Rights, that Muslims are being oppressed there, or do they only think about Ahmadis? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib can answer this question. I will not answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Mirza Sahib! I have some references and questions before me... I have been looking at them all day today. Some, I think... You have already answered them. And since the record is also not clear on some things, I am asking again. If you have already answered and you remember, that's fine. If you have not answered, then please answer them. Because later, the honorable members say that our question is very important. You have not asked it yet. Here is a question: Didn't Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad Sahib say...? Then begins his reference: "Zilli Nabuwat (Shadow Prophethood) has not made the foot of the Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani) fall behind, but has moved it forward, even stood it side by side with the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him)." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QAVENDE MONGE wam Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Where is this reference from? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Bashir Ahmad Qadiani, "Review of Religions" No. 3, Volume 14. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This will be known after checking. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, um, don't you remember this at the time? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We have noted that the person who is writing from where you are reading the reference is Bashir Ahmad Qadiani. Is that what you read, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think so. Actually, the question above is wrong. Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Sahib is not the author. It should have been like this, it should have been like this, that's why I'm saying, it should have been that this is by Mirza Bashir Ahmad Sahib, who is the son. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I said that there is a need to check now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, it is, we have it (from a member), right? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Where is it? (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (From a member) Where is it? (To Mirza Nasir Ahmed) It is in this that "he received prophethood when he acquired all the perfections of Muhammadan prophethood and became capable of being called a created prophet. So, created prophethood did not push the foot of the Promised Messiah back but moved it forward, and moved it forward to such an extent that he stood shoulder to shoulder with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." You can see this. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (23rd Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, send the book. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will answer here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the reference has just arrived. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the reference has arrived. If one bothers to read the surrounding pages, the answer is within it. I will read it out: "But your arrival has closed the door to independent and real prophethoods. With your arrival (it is a mention of the arrival of Hazrat Muhammad), the door to independent and real prophethoods has closed, and the door to shadow prophethood has opened. So now, whoever is a shadow prophet is not one to break the seal of prophethood, because his prophethood is nothing in itself, but rather, it is a shadow of the prophethood of Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, and not an independent prophethood. And this notion that some people have that qualitative or buruzi prophethood is an inferior kind of prophethood, is merely a self-deception that has no reality whatsoever, because for shadow prophethood it is necessary that a person becomes so immersed in following the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, that he attains the state of 'I became you, and you became me' (drowned in love). In such a situation, he will find all the perfections of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, descending within himself in the color of reflection, (in the color of reflection... just as a mirror reflects the sun or the moon) in the day of reflection, to the point that the closeness between the two will increase so much that the cloak of the prophethood of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, will also be placed upon him, only then will he be called a shadow prophet." Meaning, nothing of his own. Just as there is a reflection of the moon in the mirror, as a result, it is an attachment, a reflective connection: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1281 So when the requirement of a shadow is to be a complete image of its origin, and all the prophets agree on this, then that ignorant person who considers the shadow prophecy of the Promised Messiah to be...’ Meaning, in its philosophical capacity: Considers shadow prophecy to be an inferior type of prophecy Or interprets it to mean incomplete prophecy, he should come to his senses and worry about his Islam, because he has attacked the glory of prophethood which is the crown of all prophethoods. A shadow is cast, isn't it? Whose reflection has come in it?: I cannot understand why people stumble over the prophethood of Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah)..." These are actually non-Muabahila people being addressed here: And why some people consider your prophethood to be an incomplete prophethood, because I see that you were a shadow prophet because of being a manifestation of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. And the status of this celestial prophethood is very high." The status of the reflection, the image of the beloved, is as beautiful as the beloved. This is what is being discussed here: It is obvious that the prophets who came in earlier times (i.e., before the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), it was not necessary for them to possess all the perfections that were placed in the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Rather, each prophet was granted perfections according to his capacity and work; they were not reflections of anyone else) some had a lot, some had less, but the Promised Messiah only received prophethood (otherwise he could not have received it at all). He only received prophethood when he had acquired all the perfections of the Muhammadi prophethood, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him (i.e., in reflection) and became worthy of being called a prophet. So the shadow prophecy did not make the Promised Messiah’s step fall behind..." Having presented all these arguments, he has drawn a conclusion, and I will respond only to that extent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, fine. Now, since this writing brings up the topic of shadow prophethood again... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...therefore, if you could kindly provide some further clarification regarding this word, what would be the translation of the verse "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin"? I do not want an explanation; you have already provided it in detail, quite a bit. "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin," how you pronounce it, what do you take its meaning to be, literally, word for word? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, its... regarding "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin," what meaning is taken... is present in the summarized document... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Number one... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Literal meaning... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The literal meaning is what Gaddafi Sahib gave in his lecture in Lahore. An English translation of that has been published by their embassy. In it, he has given the meaning of "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin" as "Seal of the Prophets." So either you can have it brought over, or I can send someone tomorrow to get it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, that's what I was asking... "Seal of the Prophets." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am telling you how Gaddafi Sahib has given its meaning as "Seal of the Prophets," and we believe that he has given the correct meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, now the question arises from "Seal of the Prophets" that those old Prophets were closed, Sealed? Or the future Prophets will go through the seal? This, you see, a difference of opinion is arising. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Actually, in this, there is an opinion of the Sufis in the Muslim Ummah, an opinion of those who belong to Ilm-ul-Kalam (Islamic theology), an opinion of the Jurists. Similarly, there are different opinions. Such elders have passed away. And now I will give my personal opinion. That is my personal opinion... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, your personal, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, elders have passed away whose personal opinion also agrees with mine… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That before the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), as many prophets as came… one lakh 20 thousand or 24 thousand, they say differently, there are estimates, no need to go into that. As many prophets as came, all of them came through the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and through your divine power, your blessings, your glory, your relationship with this world… One is that relationship that is with one's Ummah, and one is the Holy Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) relationship with the entire universe, with the Universe, it is mentioned in the Hadith: Laulaka Lama Khalaqtul Aflak (If I had not created your being, I would not have created this Universe.) According to this, you become the seal for the former as well as the seal for the latter, meaning that without your attestation, without your prediction, without Muslim's Hadith in which the one to come has been called "Nabi Allah" (Prophet of Allah) four times, no one can even claim prophethood. 1284 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Mr. Mirza Sahib, you have also clarified that this seal was for those who have passed, and for those who are yet to come... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In a sense, I have said, this has also been stated. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, so now the word is "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" and not "Khatam-un-Nabi." And you say only one will come after that. How is that? Will you clarify? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have included the former ones as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have already answered your question, earlier. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the seal for the future, that window that has opened, the door that has opened for prophethood... Excuse me, I have come back to this again. I kept thinking about this a lot. So, regarding this, "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" is in both senses, it is a seal for the old ones and also a seal for those coming in the future, you have a nature of forging prophets... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have become "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen," haven't you? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Absolutely not, otherwise you have made one prophet so that there is one for the future. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh sir, it is the seal for all, past and future... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you said in both senses. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am telling you my sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you said in both senses, that "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" is in that sense "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen," in this sense will there be "Khatam-un-Nabi" then? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, I couldn't make my point clear. I said that in this, as a result of the seal of "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin," 124,000 prophets have come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Then that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then in the future also that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The seal, is it for the future as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As a result of the seal of "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin"? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And prophets will come, the door is open. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Anbiya" is plural, isn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Many prophets. Some of yours and one has come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, are you taking that meaning from it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Mirza Sahib! Another reference. I think maybe you have already answered it... but I will read it out to you again. This is "Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi," Page 179... (pointing towards a member) He says, yes, it has come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Has come? MULT OF CANDID 1230 og 1914 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has this already come up? Because I myself did not note its page number. Then there is another reference, this is also from Haqiqat ul Wahi... "Na Aina Kamalat, page..." "The person who claims prophethood, it is necessary that he respects the existence of God Almighty." (From a member) Has this also come up? (From Mirza Nasir Ahmad) This, they say, has also come up. This is "Sirat-ul-Abdal, page 193." I don't think the page number was correct. You had taken out a correct page. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This has come up. And I had told you that in a sixteen-seventeen page book, I couldn't find page 193. Because... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Anyway, you are asking me, I am clarifying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have its... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's why I am verifying it. Now regarding the window issue that has come up in connection with this, one question is whether some other people in your community also claimed prophethood, during Mirza Sahib's time or later? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have a little bit of study of my history, and I think that thousands of people in the Ummah of Muhammad have claimed prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am asking about yours, in your community! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, now some people from my community also went crazy and joined in this, but those who claimed... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1287 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The window was open! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I will tell you about the window. I have found a reference about the window. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, sir, I ---- hope you don't mind.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, why would I mind. You listen to this reference. This is a reference from the founder of the order: "The possessor of ultimate perfection, whose existence..." This is regarding the Holy Prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Regarding whom, sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "The possessor of ultimate perfection..." The writer is the founder of the Ahmadiyya order... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is describing the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This window issue will be resolved if listened to carefully: "The possessor of ultimate perfection, whose existence is located at the highest point of elevation in the line of divine creation, is Muhammad, peace be upon him, and opposite to him is that vile existence which is located at the lowest point of decline, whom we refer to as Satan. Although Satan's existence is not outwardly visible or perceptible, looking at this line of divine creation, one must intellectually acknowledge that just as there is a being of pure goodness (peace be upon him) at the highest point of elevation, who came into the world as a guide towards goodness, in the same way..." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 Opposite to that, among the rational beings (humans possessing an organized intellect, meaning), among the rational beings, at the extreme point of decay, there must be a mischievous entity that is attractive towards evil. For this reason, the influence of both entities is generally found internally in the heart of every human being. The pure entity which is Ruh-ul-Haq, also called Noor..." Now here, this window problem is solved: The pure entity, which is Ruh-ul-Haq and also called Noor, meaning Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace be upon him). His pure influence, through sacred emotions and inner attentions, calls every heart, every human heart, towards goodness and virtue. (This is his invitation.) The more one develops love and affinity with it, the more one gains spiritual strength and luminosity spreads in their heart, until they become colored in the same hue and, virtually, attain all those perfections that he has. And the mischievous entity (the other one we call Satan) also has an attraction within it..." I'll leave it here because... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A few sentences that are there, these explain the window. The sacred power of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is attracting every being. Some people accept this influence, and some are inclined towards satanic thoughts. Those who accept it attain spiritual heights according to their capacity. This is a very important fundamental issue that, in my opinion, Islam has presented with such breadth that every individual possesses a circle of capability, meaning what they have received as national characteristics. It is not limitless, and every individual can progress within their circle of capability and cannot step outside it. 1289 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? I had asked this... because I was given a list of eight or nine men... that these people from the Ahmadiyya community had claimed prophethood. So regarding that, I asked. About one of them, it is written that there was a man named Chiragh Din. Mirza Sahib wrote about him that: "The error of his commanding soul has led him to self-praise. Therefore, from this date, he is separated from our community unless he publishes a detailed repentance and resigns forever from the claim of this impure prophethood..." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If he doesn't repent, or? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...does not repent, does not publish a repentance letter, and does not resign forever from the claim of this impure prophethood. Our community should completely avoid such a person." So, that's why I... (Dafi-ul-Bala, page 26) Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, this is correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I needed it for that reason... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Such people, you see, the sentence contains its answer... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said that because... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Its details, etc. And this is the person upon whom Allah's curse descended, and he died from the plague. 1290 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He wasn't even given a chance to resign from prophethood, poor guy! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You didn't even give him a chance to resign from prophethood! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, he was caught in Allah's grasp. Anyway, this is a serious matter, there shouldn't be any ridicule or laughter in it, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I don't go into that detail, I just... This is Chashma-e-Ma'rifat, page 91. (Pause) That is, God is that God who sent His Messenger with perfect guidance and the true religion... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Sent." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sent... Let me read it again: That is, God is that God who sent His Messenger with perfect guidance and the true religion, so that He may make it prevail over every kind of religion, that is, grant it a universal dominance. And since that universal dominance did not come in the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), it is impossible for there to be any discrepancy in God's prophecy. Therefore, all the predecessors who have passed before us agree about this verse that this universal dominance will appear at the time of the Promised Messiah, because for this universal dominance, it is necessary to have three things that were not found in earlier times." You can see this, perhaps I haven't read it correctly because that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Give it to me, I'll read it and answer from here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It won't take long. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, are you done? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please proceed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it is read from a little before where it was read, the matter becomes clear. Here, the founder of the Ahmadiyya سلسلہ (Arabic) has written: "And from every nation--" He first writes a background of the past: Then, God Almighty sent our Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, our master Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings be upon him, to the world so that, through this Quranic teaching which is common to the natures of the entire world, He would make all the scattered nations of the world as one nation... You didn't pay attention to this, so I'll read it again: Then, God Almighty sent our Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, our master Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings be upon him, to the world so that, through this Quranic teaching which is common to the natures of the entire world, He would make all the scattered nations of the world as one nation (here a prophecy of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, was given) and as He is the one without partner. ...is to create a unity within them as well, (to instill divine attributes through divine morality...) and so that they may all together remember their God as one entity, and bear witness to His Oneness, and so that the first national unity which occurred at the beginning of creation (when humans were few... in the time of Adam) and the last inter-national unity, the foundation of which was laid in the last age (and here the last age refers to the time of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, that is, what God intended at the time of the Holy Prophet's advent, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, (this I have written ahead, the mistake I made, I have done that) that is, what God intended at the time of the Holy Prophet's advent, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. These both types of unity are a double testimony to the existence of the One God, without partner, and His Oneness, because He is One, therefore He loves unity in His entire physical and spiritual system. And since the era of the Holy Prophet's prophethood, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, extends until the Day of Judgment, and you are the Seal of the Prophets, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, therefore God did not want this inter-national unity to reach perfection during the Holy Prophet's lifetime, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, because this situation would indicate the end of your era, that is, doubt would arise that your era ended there, because the final task that was yours reached its completion in that era. Therefore, God has placed the completion of this act, that all nations become like one nation and be on one religion, in the last part of the Muhammadan era, which is the time near the Day of Judgment. And for this completion, a deputy from this very Ummah (a deputy of the Prophet) was appointed, who is named the Promised Messiah, and his name is the Seal of the Caliphs. At the head of this Muhammadan era is the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and at the end of the Muhammadan era is the Promised Messiah. (These are both the Muhammadan era) And it was necessary that this series of the world should not be cut off. I sometimes add words from my side for clarification: 1. Until they are born, because the service of the unity of nations is associated with the office of this Deputy of the Prophet. And this verse points to it, and it is this: هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ ۚ (This is a verse from the Holy Quran) meaning God is that God who sent His Messenger with perfect guidance and the true religion so that He may make it prevail over every kind of religion. That is, He will grant a universal dominance to him (i.e., Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him), and since that universal dominance did not manifest in the time of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) (for example, Islam had not reached America at that time, the first three centuries, which I have already mentioned) and it is not possible for there to be any difference in God's prophecy, therefore, all the predecessors who have passed before us agree regarding this verse that this universal dominance (the glad tidings of which were given to Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him) this universal dominance (we say, his spiritual son) will appear in the time of the Promised Messiah because the existence of three things is necessary for this universal dominance, which were not found in any previous era (i.e., the time of Muhammad is still going on). The things, the reasons, the material means that were needed for this universal dominance, Allah has provided in this era in which this prophecy of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was to be fulfilled that Islam would prevail over the whole world. And yes, just a... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You said something? Believer: This is the thought. Listen to what I am telling you. When we read the literature of Ahl-e-Sunnat wal Jama'at, it is in Tafsir Ibn Jarir that: He said from Abu Hurairah regarding His saying, "To make it prevail over all religions" Meaning, Abu Hurairah narrated regarding this verse of the Holy Quran, which has just come in the context: "He said, at the time of the coming of Jesus, son of Mary" That this promise of God Almighty of universal dominance, will be fulfilled at the time of the advent of Jesus, son of Mary. Similarly, in Tafsir Ibn Jarir, this has been narrated from Abu Jaafar: "To make it prevail over all religions" It is the same verse: "He said, when Jesus, peace be upon him, emerges, followers of every religion will follow him" Meaning, when Hazrat Masih (the Messiah) will appear, a beloved follower of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, then in his time this will come. Similarly, it is in Tafsir Husseini that: "So that people may know this religion over all religions" "Over every faith and creed at the time of the descent of Jesus" They have also given it the same meaning. Similarly, in Ghara'ib al-Quran, there is another commentary... Janab Yaki Bakhtiar: That is there, okay, Mirza Sahib! I understand that.... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1295 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right then... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now the question arises that if the complete dominance was to happen in the time of the Promised Messiah and not in the time of the Holy Prophet, then this is Allah's... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, then this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understood one thing. You have taken two meanings of "era"... One, his era will continue forever... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Will continue forever. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The second is his limited life time. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the Muslim community... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is called the first revival and the second revival of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That has always been there. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then there is the matter of life, that in his lifetime, as you say, Islam could not reach even America. So, did Mirza Sahib achieve complete dominance over the world in his lifetime? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it is my fault, I did not clarify. I did not say that it did not reach America in your lifetime. I said that your followers, regarding whom there was a prophecy that for three hundred years they would continue to try to make Islam dominant and spread it with a religious spirit, as a whole, as a result of their efforts in those three hundred years, universal dominance of Islam did not happen. This is a historical fact, it cannot be denied. 1296 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 123rd Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then for three hundred years... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And, and no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the same thing comes up, Mirza Sahib!... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, ah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That the era of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), which was three hundred years, in it There was no universal dominance, will it happen in Mirza Sahib's three hundred years? You have said this before too. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes: "It will happen, that's why I say that the Holy Quran... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But is this your belief? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is the belief of me and my righteous predecessors. In the Muslim Ummah... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, in their time... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In every century... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Their time is also three hundred years, it will happen in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a matter of unanimous agreement in the Muslim Ummah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is for the Ummah of Muhammad. But they say that because this dominance did not happen, That's why he wasn't the Promised Seed, this inference is so clear. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, in the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), those prophecies were not fulfilled Regarding the government of Kasra and Caesar. So the Muslim Ummah has accepted this That whatever work is done for the dominance of Islam and the strengthening of Islam and its power until the Day of Judgment It originally refers to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and to no one else. It is impossible for him to turn back, because whatever he found, he found through the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is today's, sir, and before as well. I just wanted to further clarification on that. That is done. I will not take any more of your time on this now. You said yesterday, Mr. Mirza Sahib! that it is probably eighteen.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Probably in 1891, Mirza Sahib claimed prophethood or the Messiah. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So now one question is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: One question was, what was the time of Mahdi Sudani? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have seen that. 1885.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is up to 1885... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, meaning.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Their last battle.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib's entire life was almost contemporary. Mirza Sahib's birth, which you have given here, is 1835 or 1832... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: According to one tradition, it is 1848... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, meaning whatever it is, like... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And he died in 1885. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Isn't it, 1885? 1298 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 123rd Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, that is correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you claimed the Messiahship in 1891. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is also correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Six years later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That, I said, the life was contemporary. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning their time of breastfeeding, in posters, their time of playing as children... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Sahib! That is not it. Mahdi Sahib was born in 1834, Mirza Sahib was born in 1834, so they were together in posters too, in the same era. Their youth was also almost together... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our topic under discussion... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the time of claim was also together. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Our topic of discussion... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you say that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The issue is not about the midwife... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question is that we are not concerned with the childhood of Mahdi Sudani... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But we are concerned with the claim of Mahdiism. There is not even one contemporary day between the claim of Mahdiism of Mahdi Sudani and the claim of Mahdiism of the Promised Messiah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1299 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. According to what you said, their claim is earlier, and as you said, Mirza Sahib did it in 1891. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He had died in 1885. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He had passed away in 1885. No. Now the second question is, did Mirza Sahib receive this prophethood all at once or gradually? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I didn't understand the meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did Mirza Sahib have any doubt that he was not a prophet... for some time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my opinion, no. (Pause) Let me clarify so that the next question doesn't come... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My, on me... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Should I give the answer right here with it... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, the question here, you see... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I'm saying, maybe my answer... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'll read the question again because... (Pause) Mr. Chairman: Five minutes' break? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. (To a member) Do you want to go, just you? Go. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was Mirza Sahib given prophethood all at once? Or gradually? And has any other prophet also received prophethood gradually? This was Maulana Hazarvi Sahib's question. That... 1300 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Zara Aug. 19/4 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I don't understand the meaning of "prophethood was received gradually," I am saying this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, was there graduation stage by stage or all at once? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, yes, I will explain my knowledge a bit. When we look at this Universe, we see the divine law of gradualism and evolution working in the entire universe. There is a child, diamonds are made, there are galaxies. And although scientists say that... God creates galaxies with a single command in their own form. No, but its further development, the way the solar system happened, it goes through different phases. When we look at the lives of the prophets... This is a delicate matter, one should try to understand... The verse Khatam-un-Nabiyyin was revealed to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the seventieth year of prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, verses kept coming, but prophethood came to him all at once. It's not that he ever doubted, "Am I a prophet or not?" Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Hazrat The Promised Messiah, in the sense you are saying doubt, he had no doubt. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in what sense, tell me, what doubt was there? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, the thing is that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "The scholars of my Ummah are like the prophets of Israel" in symbolic language, the prophets of my Ummah can also be called prophets, the scholars of my Ummah also, in symbolic language. When the word "prophet" came to you from Allah, at that time you used to understand that my prophethood is that, which is "the scholars of my Ummah are like the prophets of Israel." But here, the real thing is confusion, which is related to prophethood and messengership. The meaning of "Nabi" (Prophet) is someone who is sent towards someone or one who takes up the mantle of guidance. No, the meaning of prophethood is to receive information from God and then come to inform others. So, God Almighty used to give information, you used to think that in this In this, the word "Nabi" (Prophet) is used by the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) for the scholars of his Ummah (community) as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Has Allah not made Himself clear that you are also a Prophet? No, I, please forgive my impudence... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, because it leads to mockery, one... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is not my intention. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I will tell you, I am compelled... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, look... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That I shouldn't give an example from the life of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I, I am saying that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is mine, this is because there is great love in my heart, I am devoted... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying, Mirza Sahib! Since I had a reference in front of me, I said, forgive my impudence, I don't mean to joke about such a matter. Mirza Sahib has stated somewhere... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if it comes up, I will tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1302 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug., 1974 I used to think that I was not a prophet. But God's revelation did not let me dwell on this thought." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If you give this to me, I will read the first part, it will become clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have a question about it. This has been reported. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Its answer is present in the first two pages. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's what I'm saying, they had a doubt before... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then after revelation... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: When we don't have that book in front of us, why should I offer philosophies from my side? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning there is denial regarding this reference, then I won't proceed further. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I deny this reference in this sense, the meaning that are being attributed to it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm saying, you tell me the meaning. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Then give me the book, I will tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is from "Al Fazl." In this... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, so give Al Fazl. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Al Fazl, January 3, 1940. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1303 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: January 3, 1940. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: January 1940. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, it includes the reference that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it will be in there. Which book is the reference from? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it will be in there, it's not here with me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh, you don't have it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, if I had it, I would have told you the meaning first and wouldn't have mentioned Al-Fadl. Now another question arises, that Mirza Sahib did not suddenly claim prophethood... whatever reason you gave... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said that I couldn't explain it because I don't have the book in front of me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, before that. Before that, what I said... gradually... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I just... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Gradually" what I said, you said that it is a... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The word "gradually," we need to first define its meanings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then I told you that the law of nature is for all the worlds, the whole... TILAANAL AJJEWELT OF PAADJAN August 10, 1974 It is a gradual process regarding the Universe, from a grain of wheat to the creation of a diamond and to the universes and this system of the sun etc. and Galaxies... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or another reason someone has given me here. Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, Part Five, Page 54. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will look into it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so in this, it says: And these revelations, if they had been revealed to me at this time when the scholars had become opponents, those people would have raised thousands of objections. But they were published at a time when these scholars were in my favor. That is why, despite such fervor, they did not object to these revelations because they had accepted it once. And upon contemplation, it will become clear that the foundation of my being a false Messiah lies in these revelations, and in them, God named me Jesus. And the verses that were in favor of the Messiah were declared in my favor. If the scholars had known that these revelations would prove this person to be the Messiah, they would never have accepted them. It is the power of God that they accepted it and got stuck in the middle. From this, the impression I get... you will think that I am being rude again, that those verses came to them, they knew he was a prophet, but since they were initially afraid that the scholars would oppose them, they remained silent for some time. When they won them over, then they told them, "Well, you see what this means." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I, me, I will see, but you do not know the whole background, so you should not draw a conclusion. LOSS-CARMINATION OF THE QADRIANA GRANDE DELENIA HOIS Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, this is Bakhtiar, isn't it Mirza Sahib, it is your duty, isn't it, that you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, don't draw conclusions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because the impression that I am conveying to you... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Do convey it, definitely. I will be failing in my duty. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, do convey it, definitely, it has become a part of the question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is why I said this is the impression, so that you can completely remove this impression... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That they knew, that verses had descended upon them, revelations had come upon them... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is alright, we will check this, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the reformer, he did not consider it appropriate to express it before. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, I understood, and the foundation was laid for tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, should we have a 5-10 minutes break. at... Mr. Chairman: Short break of 10 minutes. Then we meet Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Short break. Then? Mr. Chairman: Ten.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, these books will be found, I will try to get the books now... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, they will be found, if they can be... Mr. Chairman: Yes, call them, call them please? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Sir. Mr. Chairman: You will continue as long as you want. Everyone else wants it to end quickly. There are four honorable members, convince them. One Maulana Ataullah, one Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi Sahib... Dr. Muhammad Shafi: I am also one of them. Some important questions remain. Ask them, otherwise the work will remain incomplete. The public also asks us this. Mr. Chairman: Okay, if these fifth and sixth gentlemen also want to stand, then tell me now? I have pin-pointed five, sir. Don't call them yet, sir. Sir! One is Maulana Abbas Hussain Gardezi Sahib, one is Mian Ataullah Sahib, one is Haji Moula Bakhsh Soomro Sahib, one is Maulana Zafar Ahmed Ansari Sahib. According to the opinion of the house, I will take ten... After their. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: What mistake have we made? Mr. Chairman: That five people want to, it hasn't even started and it's being minimized. Now definite, what? Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: The point is correct, sir! When we have sat here for so many days.... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: And it has been going on for so many days, what is the harm if it goes on for two or four more days. Mr. Chairman: No, it will not go on for two or four days, this is final. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: Yes? Mr. Chairman: You do today, in one sitting, you pinpoint the definite questions, the questions that are there. It has been two weeks now, yes. Leave some topics for the next assembly as well, sir, your successors, they also have to make some decisions. It is not that you have to make all the decisions until the Day of Judgment. There are still many assemblies to come, yes. So, one assembly cannot do it for a century, sir. 1308 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 Call them by ten o'clock. Ten fifteen. That's all. Not "Sawadi". (The Delegation entered the Hall) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General? Not now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Something about you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, what could I do in ten minutes, I didn't have the book here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, well then they will look at it. Yes, in it. Mr. Chairman: Let it be for tomorrow. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In it they are also saying that their page is also wrong. I don't know what. They will look at that too. They don't have it here, or else I would have given it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the page is wrong then I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, meaning maybe they will tell. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sometimes the page is correct, the book is wrong. One never knows about it. It becomes very difficult for me, because you also have difficulty tracing in so many books. Some are such that if the matter is known then it becomes easy. Now, Mirza Sahib! I requested you that the Lahori group had given some extracts. It's up to you if you want to comment on it, otherwise I don't want that.... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1309 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, I don't want to comment on that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I don't want to embarrass you---- Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that's why I said that it has some references... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, our, its references are also in our statement. If we compare the two, its answer has already come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I said, if you want to comment, that's why I requested. So that's why now I... I won't waste Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, return it, or can we keep it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, we will return it... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: (To a member of his delegation) Yes, take it out. Yes, that's what he asked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because this is the official record. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, okay. I just asked. Yes, it was left there. We will return it in the morning, God willing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, okay. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One question, Mirza Sahib! Did Mirza Sahib write and submit in the court of the District Magistrate of Gurdaspur that he would not, in the future, publish any such revelations against his opponents in which the death or destruction of his opponents is mentioned, or any abusive language is used against them? Mirza Nasir Ahmad, where is it, where is the reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, yes sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmad, is there any reference here? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no. He just asked a question that a case was filed to a District Magistrate, someone filed a case of defamation. This is what this report says. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will read the case here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, if you have it here... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, if you have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay. That will be a rather long answer, fifteen minutes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you could shorten it then... you are quite capable of it, I know. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. I am not. Very humble... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not in that, I understand that you also have your own point of view. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, sir, the actual reason we are sitting here is to understand the issues by discussing them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am trying very hard to finish it, as soon as possible, because there are so many issues that if we keep talking, there is no time limit on it... Yes, yes. : Mirza Nasir Ahmad Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, the issue that is in the resolution, according to what things can come from it, some things are such that some members, I am carrying out their order, otherwise there would be no reason for me to... Mirza Sahib! I talked to you about an article that day. Then I left it because the issue of Jihad was coming up. Those were not questions about it. I had asked whether Islam allows war for freedom, to create freedom in one's country? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I had already given that answer, I think I have given its answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you had said that people kill, cause bloodshed. That is, later, maybe I had said that maybe later I will come back to this question. So now the question was that in 1857... I asked you some questions about it and you answered in great detail... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding the mutiny. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because they understand that it was also a war of independence. You said that people were killed, looted, children were killed, many things happened in it, therefore no one can justify it. And I completely agree with you that no one justifies such things. But the question is that when the movement for independence started in British India, the movement for the establishment of Pakistan started, that was also a war of independence, that was also against the same British, so during that time, didn't killings happen? Weren't honors violated? Wasn't there looting from both sides? NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It doesn't happen during the war of independence, kicks were rained down, lives were given, chastity was violated to pluck its fruit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am saying that such actions took place. Those who committed these actions, who looted, who spread unrest, who committed evil deeds. Because of this, the leaders of independence cannot be condemned as thieves, or thugs. If they cannot be called that, then the leaders of 1857, who sincerely wanted the country's independence, cannot be called that either. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, at that time, yes, I will tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I was drawing this parallel. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: When we compare 1897 with today. Then in 1897 at that time, 1857, Eighteen fifty-seven. It seems I am tired. In 1857, did anyone condemn them? Here you are mistaken. In 1857, those who participated in this mutiny were condemned by those who saw the events there. And to condemn without seeing or to speak in favor, one does not have the competence for this. And at that time, those people, during the 47, whatever this war of independence is, or. War of independence it is not, but this struggle is a Jihad, a meaningful Jihad for freedom. In this, those people who were the leaders, were not condemned by those who saw it. Some did, some condemned those who were involved in the middle. For example, a part of this was in the leadership of Hindus, this Patel, and this Jan Sangh is still there, so this was condemned by Hindus as well as Muslims. DADAR CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! That's what I am submitting, that even in that era, there were some people, Muslims had the government in India. That government ended, and the British took over. The Muslims... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How did it end? No, I am just diverting attention. I am diverting attention because it ended because traitors emerged within the Muslims themselves. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, there would be mistakes, everything would happen, I am not going into those reasons. The Muslims... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The real thing is that I haven't even understood the question yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will explain again. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Muslims had the government in India and for a very long time. The last ruler was Bahadur Shah Zafar. He was removed. The British were spreading for a long time, but finally, when they established their empire, at that time, when Zafar's condition was very bad, and he was about to end, and the British had established themselves, it was just that their announcement hadn't happened, that the empire had been formed? That the Queen has taken charge? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning, at one time, it was happening here in the name of the East India Company, and then at one time, that empire was formed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it continued in different regions for two hundred years. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Hmm, hmm. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After the Battle of Plassey, when our trouble came, in 1799 when Tipu Sultan was martyred... 1314 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug., Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, a man like Tipu Sultan was killed by his own people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I'm saying, these things happen. This was all, in our view, a war of independence, a war to maintain Muslim rule. In the end, the Muslims... others also cooperated with them, Hindus must have also done so. Others also did. The war of 1857 was fought, in which it certainly happened that some people committed atrocities. Like any movement, when you take out a peaceful procession, any party, some people come in the middle to take advantage and create disturbance, commit mischief, loot. So, one cannot condemn those who intend the procession to be peaceful. Similarly, in this war of independence, those who led it and those who said it was a jihad, you condemned all of them and called them thieves, dacoits, bastards, and who knows what else. That's why I'm saying, if you condemn them because they didn't, someone else looted, someone else Murdered, then looting Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I have already given a detailed answer to this. The point is that at that time everyone, including Bahadur Shah Zafar, condemned it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not talking about them, Mirza Sahib! To a king... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I am talking about that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After putting shackles on the king and taking him away, then everything... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And those who were not shackled also condemned it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In court, he was presented before the British. CAVANI RAAMUNA | RUN OF THE QADIANIAVOUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, you see that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are from the Mughal family. He was a Mughal emperor, you know in what condition he presented them. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I know many of his poems. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, I'm coming to that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This is Sir Syed Ahmed, founder of Darul Uloom, of that time, no, Aligarh, founder of Aligarh. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We have seen all that, you have narrated it in great detail. Mirza Sahib! I am not saying this... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: After this detail, I am not understanding the question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said that on this Condemn, so this freedom movement that we had for Pakistan, I want to do it on that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I will reveal what I did not understand. Maybe I will get an answer quickly... That is, at that time, this which we are calling the War of Independence... We are calling it Ghadar, who were its leaders who praised those events and did not Condemn! I do not know the names of those men. I would be grateful when you tell me these names. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am requesting you from history, I will draw a parallel. This parallel may be wrong. You may be right that in that era there was a war of independence which you call "Ghadar". Some people called it "Jihad". 1316 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Many people said. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Said in that era? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, said in that era. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In that era? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, in that era. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's what I'm saying, isn't it, that the leaders of that era who didn't condemn, I don't have any names in my mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am respectfully requesting that if I get any names, it will add to my knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. I also did some study in the India Office about how many letters went from Muslims to each other, that this is Jihad, you should try. These are the things. I don't want to go into detail. I mentioned it because if you think they didn't say it, then fine. In my view, many said that it is Jihad and tried for it and considered it Jihad and fought. Anyway, the question is that in this, you say that people looted, plundered, and committed atrocities. One group did it. On this, I say, will you condemn the leadership? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If they were under the guidance and directives of the leadership, the leaders should be condemned..... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1317 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If they were free. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And did not obey the leaders, and as a result of disobeying their leaders, these atrocities - which you call atrocities - then the leaders are completely innocent, nothing can be said to them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, exactly, that's what I wanted to ask, that in connection with the Pakistan Movement... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am not even talking about the Pakistan Movement... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am talking about 1857. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I am drawing a parallel between the two because I consider that also a war of independence. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my opinion, there is no parallel at all, no similarity. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, so now I want to clarify the parallel for you, that during the Pakistan Movement also, during our independence also, some people committed atrocities and they were such atrocities that we are ashamed of them. Although the Hindus committed a lot of atrocities, a lot... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A lot. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No one on that. The Sikhs committed a lot of atrocities. But mistakes have been made here too. So because of that, I am asking whether you will not condemn the leadership. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 That the Ghalam movement was, this movement was also in name only. Or in other words, if we, God forbid, had failed, then you would have also called it treason? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, this is not a matter under discussion at all. And we shouldn't even talk with 'ifs'. Otherwise, with 'ifs' we'll go who knows where. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! It is a matter of 'ifs'. That if you think that there is permission to fight for freedom, your faith dictates it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No war was fought for the creation of Pakistan. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I ask this question first: for freedom... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, then what parallel, how did it become with treason, when Pakistan was created no war was fought at all? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say, you yourself say that how many thousands of people were sacrificed, sacrifices were made, millions were killed. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I said that sacrifices were made, I did not say that a war was fought. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I ask you this question: Does Islam allow fighting, allow war, to create freedom in the country, or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: It depends on the circumstances. When all things are in front of you, then Islam its... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, sir, I am not talking about interfering in religion. Look, no, that's where you... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, I mean that in the world also the first basic principle human intellect has made is that don't give decisions with your eyes closed. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MIRZA NASIR AHMAD Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, I am asking a very simple question: Under what circumstances does Islam permit fighting? You very clearly said... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I told you, no, another fatwa mentioned four conditions for jihad yesterday. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that you said that as far as interference in matters of religion is concerned, you are allowed to draw the sword. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is the religious war. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, religious. Similarly, I am asking whether it is permissible to fight or draw the sword to create freedom in the country or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In my opinion, there is no need for this discussion in our world at this time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our world today... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ...in which we live, this is mere philosophy and theory. This is not a practical problem that we should discuss to solve. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! If an enemy attacks your country, won't you kill him? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When did I say we wouldn't kill him? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said that the enemy is not attacking our country today. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If not today, it was some time ago. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When it was, our boys were martyred, including Ahmadis, along with all of us. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Englishman who was sitting, he was also sitting on our country. To remove him... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There was no war with him, and Pakistan was obtained. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was there permission or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was there permission or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no question. Practically, there was no need for war. Today, after twenty-seven years, you ask whether a war should have been fought twenty-seven years ago or not! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I say that if someone occupies your country, is there permission to free the country or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Do not talk to me with "ifs," because this issue is not to be resolved with ifs until the Day of Judgment. We should talk about what is a reality, or what is the teaching, or what is the definition related to an Islamic issue. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Islamic teaching... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you are talking about the creation of Pakistan, for which no war was fought. And the wars that have occurred after that, they were wars, and we should have fought them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I understand that if a war has to be fought, if there is need to fight a war? Once I indicated direct action. You said no, so I said, okay, let's leave it. If a war has to be fought. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the conditions for war are met, then he is not a believer who does not participate in Jihad. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1321 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I am not saying about Jihad in the matter of religion, but in the matter of freedom... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, now let me clarify. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In my imagination, a Muslim cannot be a slave. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, listen to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Therefore, it is necessary for him to fight for his freedom by constitutional means, if possible; sword, if necessary. It will be a completely wrong belief now. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, this is a very correct belief of yours. But when your question is over, I will answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I was submitting that I am repeatedly telling you whether Islam allows fighting to create freedom in the country or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is the question finished? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Please sit down. To create freedom in the country... What kind of country is it where there is no freedom? First question. I am giving the answer now. In this form, if there is no freedom in the country, the question is whether the government is of its own country or people have come from outside? So, this has to be done, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: People have come from outside, I am talking about outside, sir, I am not talking about laws like Ayub Khan's. 1322 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, these, these are the things I don't, that's why I was saying that some aspects are not clear. In Pakistan, after the formation of Pakistan, no one from outside has come here to rule. Therefore, this is such a question that I don't need to answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Before this, when the British were here, did Islam allow war or not? To whom? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To the minority or the majority? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When we were slaves. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the era of democracy, was this permission for the minority or the majority? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am talking about the majority in the area. If they had to fight, had to fight against the Hindu or had to fight against the British or against both... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Talking about the past. When we talk about an event that never happened, there is no benefit in it. When you talk about the future, then maybe we can think about it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! If the majority and minority both come together then... Mr. Chairman: The Attorney-General may go on to the next question. The witness is not prepared to answer this question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will repeat once again. Mr. Chairman: No, No. the witness is not prepared to answer this question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will repeat once again. Mr. Chairman: The witness has tried to go away from it in replying..... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1 am going to repeat it again. 1323 Mr. Chairman: It has gone on the record. Yes, another question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am going to repeat this question in a different form. Mr. Chairman: This question was repeated twenty times, but the witness has not replied this question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In a different form. Mr, Chairman: No. Next question. It has gone on the record. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! This is your pamphlet which is titled "Hamari Taleem" (Our Teaching), and it has been edited by Mirza Basheer Ahmad Sahib, and it is written on page 30: "O, Scholars of Islam..." I will give you this pamphlet now. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maybe, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, in it, regarding the issue of what permission Islam gives about wars, it says: "Number one, the wars that were fought during the time of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) were not to propagate religion by force." We all agree on this. After that: "Rather, they were either as punishment, meaning it was intended to punish those people who had murdered a large group of Muslims." 1324 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 We will go into detail on this again. Then: Number 2, those are the wars that were for defense, meaning the people who advanced to destroy Islam. This second one will then be understood in detail. "Third, wars were fought to create the freedom of the country." This is from the time of the British.... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Should I explain its meaning? Can I see this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is the fifteenth edition of 1965, Pages 30-31. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Pages 30-31. (Pause) Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, here, the passage that is there, let me read a little before and after it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you can certainly do that. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: You have written that: Where is it written in the Holy Quran that coercion for religion is right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, it has already been discussed... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, I will go ahead. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everyone agrees with this. There is no disagreement between you and us. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1325 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh! Its answer is in this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please speak. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Where is it written in the Holy Quran that coercion for religion is permissible? Rather, Allah Almighty says in the Holy Quran:" "La Ikraha fid Deen" "That is, there is no compulsion in religion. Then why would the Messiah, son of Mary, be given the authority of coercion? The entire Quran is repeatedly saying that there is no compulsion in religion and is clearly showing that the battles that were fought during the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) were not to spread religion by coercion, but either as punishment, that is, the intention was to punish those who had killed a large group of Muslims and expelled some from the religion and committed extreme atrocities. As Allah Almighty says:" "Udhina lilladhina yuqatiluna bi annahum zulimu wa innAllaha 'ala nasrihim laqadir" "That is, those Muslims who are being fought by the disbelievers have been allowed to fight back because of being oppressed, and God is able to help them." "Number 2, those battles are those which are by way of defense." "That is, the first is within the Country. That is, the disbelievers of Mecca, they oppressed the Muslims in their Arab region, killed them, and committed great atrocities within Mecca itself. The second is the army that has invaded from outside:" "Those battles are those which are by way of defense. That is, those who would advance to destroy Islam or forcibly prevent the spread of Islam in their country, were fought against for self-defense." ISA DIVINE ASSEMBLY OF FANDSTAN 14JFD Aug. 1974 These became two: "Fighting is done to create freedom in the third country." What I understand here, before as well, meaning ours. This I have seen now, the same here, And the topic has been performed in another place as well. This is that if a government in a country, whether its own or foreign, does not give religious freedom to anyone. Here it is a religious war and religious freedom. "Freedom" means religious freedom in a religious war. When religious freedom is not given and, for example, a Muslim is stopped from praying, Stopped from fasting, or as the Sikhs did, they even used to stop the call to prayer, then When there is no religious freedom within the country and there is no way for them to obtain their rights, then At that time, they are allowed to fight. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only religious freedom is the meaning? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, by freedom, religious freedom, because this is a mention of religious wars here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, meaning they cannot fight for other freedoms? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Other freedoms have other principles. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is what I am asking you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, here religious freedom is meant. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I myself was confused that on one hand, you say to obey the ruler, on the other hand, how can you gain freedom? So this was a contradiction of your teaching. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is religious freedom. CAN DO EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI (IROUP DELEGATION 1327 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Mirza Sahib! There are still two or three questions about Mirza Sahib's predictions. If you briefly explain it yourself, so that there is no room for questioning in it again. In your own words, one is about Abdullah Atham, Atham. "Anjam Atham" on which he wrote a book. The second is about Muhammadi Begum. The third is Maulvi Abu Al-Wafa Thanaullah Amritsari, is there any advertisement about them? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: These three? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, these three, yes sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: So, I will tell you tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so briefly tell us your position on this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that, because I have received several questions on this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, okay, I will... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Instead of going into the detail of each one, you can give their brief texts, whether they were fulfilled or not, why they were not fulfilled. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I will give a brief outline of everything. Yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now one more question is that in which language did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib receive revelations? In one language or in different languages? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In different languages. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In different languages. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: But the largest proportion is that of Arabic and Urdu. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, since this was a question, that's why. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is, some, exceptionally, from within... Yahya Bakhtiar: Because some are also in English. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that's what I said, that's why I clarified, otherwise more questions will arise. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The vast majority are in Arabic and Urdu, and exceptionally, some are in English, some in Punjabi, and some in Persian. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Mirza Sahib, did he consider these revelations to be as pure as the revelations of Allah in the Holy Quran? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Only in the sense that their source is the same... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But there is a big difference in their grandeur and glory. You... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you explained that the other day, I am saying that you say both are from Allah. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If they are from Allah, there are two revelations, then there is definitely... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you don't say it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Those who don't... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I say it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't say it. Yes, that's right, JazakAllah. I don't say it, in my opinion, he was truthful. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I'm saying, if I say it. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1329 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, I was telling that theory, regarding Mirza Sahib's revelations, if no, I was saying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I was telling the theory that, rationally, if the source is God, then there is no difference between them. And I... this is my next statement - that I understand that all the revelations of the Ahmadiyya community are from God. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so is it as pure as the Quran? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, in terms of purity, it is just like the raw revelations of our other elders. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Chashma-e-Ma'rifat. Maybe the reference was wrong again. I am sorry, Mirza Sahib! Because the reference I have been given is also from another book. Which page is this from (Mirza Nasir Ahmad)? I will read this article of his. Please bring it out: "And it is completely irrational and absurd for a person's original language to be one, and the revelation to be in another language that he cannot even understand." This is "Chashma-e-Ma'rifat." They are taking it out of it now. Because Mirza Sahib was a scholar of Persian and Arabic. And Urdu, Punjabi, well, this matter of English came up because he writes somewhere that he asked a Hindu boy what the meaning of some... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a good researcher, we will find out after looking at all the references. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I will give you the references. They are right here. Here they are, Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, page 330. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 330 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. It wasn't right in that. I think it will be this one. In this are the revelations that came in English. Yes, this 330 is in it: "I love you. I am with you. Yes, I am happy. Life of pain. I shall help you. I can't, but I will do. we can't but we will do. God is coming by his Army. He is with you to kill enemy. The day shall come when God shall help you. Glory be to the Lord God, Maker of the earth and heaven." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I said that they will see it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so this, this which is, right, 330 is the right page for it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes sir, you yourself must have given some explanation. So after looking at the context, tomorrow morning for that reason... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And that which is, sir, that Chashma Maarifat page 39, in which he is saying that it is wrong to say that the language is one and the revelation is in another... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, there is one subject ..... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... Apart from any question. I will be requesting the members, after this, to give up. Now most of them have been asked one way or the other. Mr. Chairman: Yes, afterwards we will discuss it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. But there is one subject which is a little detailed, not very detailed ..... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: Yes. 1331 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... Which deals with some questions that Mirza Sahib has at different stages given different statement or writings. (To Mirza Nasir Ahmad) Is it like this, sir, that he did not initially claim prophethood, or rejected it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So there are some references on that. Because he was also in the Lahori party, I am leaving them out, those that they have given me, so Mirza Sahib perhaps does not have some time about that, and anyway so in the morning he made these predictions that ... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Chairman: I will request the Attorney-General to give all the references to the witness so that the remaining answers may come by tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, there are ..... there is a ..... No, I have got a file of these questions, and I want to ask very few of them. Mr. Chairman: All right. Then in the morning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, that's why..... Mr. Chairman: Then in the morning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, it is not one reference, they are far too many. They show that Mirza Sahib has at different stages.... Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... Said different things.... Mr. Chairman: Yes. 1332 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:.... Repudiating that he is a Nabi, and then confirming he is Nabi. And I will just ask a few, you know, I will look through them again. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Give them all together then... Mr. Chairman: So, the Delegation....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, there are a lot of these, it will take time on that. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation can leave. There are no other questions for..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me see two or four from this. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you want, I can read out some so that he can note it down. Mr. Chairman: Yes, if there is a little reference, so that the witness should come prepared on this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, give the reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because that way we will be able to dispose of the whole thing tomorrow then, if possible. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I tell you now... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If you give the reference now... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, if... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1333 Mr. Chairman: Give a little bit so that... Just give him a brief outline so that the witness should... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so I'll read something and tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is a reference, Sir, "Letter of Promised Messiah, August 7, 1891, printed Debate Rawalpindi, page 145. In it, he says: "In Islam, the meaning of a prophet and messenger is that they bring a complete Sharia or repeal some rulings of the previous Sharia, or they are not called the community of the previous prophet. They are directly related to God Almighty without benefiting from any prophet.” Then further, this is his Hamamat-ul-Bushra, page 34. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Hamamat-ul-Bushra" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, original 134, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. In it, he says... There is another reference to this, maybe this isn't right. Ruhani Khazain, Volume, Page 200. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 200 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 200, yes, two hundred. In it, he says that: "Do you not know that the Merciful Lord, the Possessor of Grace, named our Prophet as Khatam-un-Nabiyyin without any exception, and our Prophet explained its details in his saying "La Nabiyya Ba'di" (No Prophet after me) clearly for those who seek. And if we allow the advent of a prophet after our Prophet, then it is as if we allow eating his meal after his door is closed. And This is not correct, as is evident to the Muslims. How can a prophet come after our Messenger? 1334 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 Whereas after your death, revelation ceased and Allah sealed the prophets upon you. Then here is another reference of this kind: "The Holy Prophet had repeatedly stated that no prophet would come after me." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where is this second reference from? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, this is on pages 217-218, footnote of "Kitab-ul-Bariya," Ruhani Khazain, Volume 13. You? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Kitab-ul-Bariya." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, pages 217-218. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Note it down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Holy Prophet had repeatedly stated that no prophet would come after me. And the Hadith "La Nabiyya Ba'di" was so famous that no one could dispute its authenticity. And the Holy Quran, every word of which is definitive, also confirms this fact through its verse "Walakin Rasool Allah Wa Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" that in reality, prophethood has ended with our Prophet." Then I will read out another reference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. First, write down its reference so that it is not missed. No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. This is Ruhani Khazain, I have already noted it down. Should I note it down again? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, it is noted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The one I am reading now. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1335 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, which you are now starting to read. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is, sir, Ruhani Khazain, Volume 2, Page 412. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Ruhani Khazain, Volume 20, Page 412." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...now all prophethoods are closed except for Muhammadi prophethood..." Now, the second one has come. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...no prophet with Sharia can come. And a prophet without Sharia can exist, but only he who is first a follower. Based on this, I am both a follower and a prophet." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The head shake I did, I did not do it on the second page, meaning I do not agree with it. (Sitting down) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please don't take it as disrespect, Mirza Sahib! I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am telling you its stages. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, you tell us everything, we will solve the whole problem, God willing, here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then there is another one: "...the word Prophet..." 1336 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (23rd Aug. 1974 This first reference is, from Ruhani Khazain, also volume 20, page 401. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Four hundred Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Four hundred and one. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Four hundred and one. "The word 'Nabi' means only this to God Almighty, for this era, that a person perfectly attain the honor of conversation and divine address, and be appointed for the revival of religion. Not that he brings another Sharia because the Sharia ends with the Holy Prophet." Then it is, "Ruhani Khazain, volume 20, the same one, page 327." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 327 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Three twenty Seven: "How can you attain those blessings without prophets and messengers? Therefore, it is necessary that, in order to bring you to the level of certainty and love, God's prophets come from time to time from whom you receive those blessings. Now will you compete with God Almighty and break His ancient law?" Now another reference, Ruhani Khazain, volume 21, page 306 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "All this misfortune arises from the deception that the true meanings of the Prophet have not been considered. The meaning of 'Nabi' is only this: that one who receives news through revelation from God and has the honor of conversation and CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1337 honored to address him. It is not necessary for him to bring the Sharia. Nor is it necessary for the law-giving Prophet... What is the word, sir? It has been erased somewhat. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Okay, we will look at it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please look at that reference. Mr. Chairman: The rest for tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, two, three more; I will read so that..... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Just write down the page numbers of the books. Mr. Chairman: Just write down the page numbers of the books, then we will read them in the morning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then there is Ruhani Khazain, Volume 22, pages 99-100. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, okay. Next page? Ninety-nine and hundred. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then there is also Ruhani Khazain, also Volume 22, pages 406 and 407. Then this is Ruhani Khazain, Volume 18, page 381. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, have you written it down? Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then again, Ruhani Khazain, Volume 22, page 100. Then this is Ruhani Khazain, Volume 18, pages 210-211. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: 210-211. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Ruhani Khazain, Volume 2, pages 117-118. 1338 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [23rd Aug. 1974 Roohani Khazain Volume 18, Page 231. Two thirty-one. Roohani Khazain Volume 22, Page 220. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: 220, 22 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Fatawa Ahmadiyya Volume 1, Page 149 One Four Nine. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Whose book is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Fatawa Ahmadiyya Volume 1." I don't... They will find out, it is here with me. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, no, my intention was only to point out that this is not the book of the founder of the series. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no it won't be, but perhaps there is some extract or something in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, if it is a reference, then it is fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they will take it out and show it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Otherwise it will be confiscated, because all the references are theirs first. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Then you have seen that verse, we have all seen it, here it is. "Anbiya garche booda and..." That verse, you know, that is also Roohani Khazain. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, it will come out of Durre Sameen Farsi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Volume 18, Page 477. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1339 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no. Let them write this verse, it will be found in the other one. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they are giving it here too. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I mean there are different references in the two books, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, these are more from Ruhani Khazain, that's why I am... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, you are right. (Referring to a member of his delegation) I have asked him to write down the verse. So we will find this verse wherever it is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. آن چه دادست ہرنبی را جام ۔ Ruhani Khazain, Volume 18, Page 382 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Three hundred and eighty-two. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, eighty-two. Ruhani Khazain, Volume 18, Pages 382-376 Then Ruhani Khazain, Volume 22, and page 152. One fifty-two. That's all, Sir. I have left quite a few out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I would like to submit in regards to this that because there is a lot of work to do and it is already ten o'clock, it will be half-past ten by the time we get home, then we have to eat, and there are many other duties to perform at night. So, if it could be a little later tomorrow, we will finish this work and bring it. This is a request. 1340 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 123rd Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We meet at 10.30. Mr. Chairman: Half Past Ten. Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: At half Past Ten we will meet. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is a lot of work. 11.00. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That will be eleven o'clock. You... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that will be fine then. The problem is that we have to be on time. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation can come at 11.00? at 11.00. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: At 11.00. Mirza Nasir Ahmada: Yes, thank you, sir, this is fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is it, look, your Majmua-e-Fatwa Ahmadiyya, Volume I. Mirza Nasir Ahmada: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Irshadat Imam Jamaat Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. This is Maulvi Fazal Khan Ahmadi. Mirza Nasir Ahmada: Yes, sir, in this... Mr. Yakni Bakhtiar: Maulvi Fazal Khan Ahmadi. Mirza Nasir Ahmada: Yes, sir, I understand, in this we have to see whether the reference given on this page is actually present in the original or not. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 134] Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, whatever I get... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, no, absolutely okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you can check. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: The honourable members will keep sitting. Reporters can go; They can leave also. [The Special Committee of the Whole House subsequently adjourned to meet at half past ten of the clock, in the morning, on Saturday, the 24th August, 1974.] PCPPI-1098(10) N.A.-21-4-2011-450. No. 11 C THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, August 24, 1974 (Contains No. 1-21) CONTENTS 1. Recitation from the Holy Quran 2. Cross-examination of the Qadiani Group Delegation. 3. Attack on MNA ...... 4. Cross-examination of Qadiani Group Delegation-Concluded. Pages 1345 1345-1416 1416-1418 1419-1508 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD. PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD. No. 11 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, August 24, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Saturday, August 24, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at half past ten in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. (RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN) 1345 1346 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 24th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: Should we call them? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): Yes, Sir. Mr. Chairman: (To the secretary) Call them. (To the delegation) Come in, come in. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! You have to give more than enough answers. Mirza Nasir Ahmad (Witness Head of Jamaat Ahmadiyya Rabwah): Yes, they are ready. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now one request I had to make was about some references from 'Al-Fazl' that I mentioned the day before yesterday, we will need them in the record. If you don't have their original copy, then give us extracts from them. Those are about Akhand Bharat from April, May and June 1947, because the ones we have that were noted from other places or photocopied are not accurate. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Please read the dates once so that I can see them carefully. If we have spare copies, we will give you the newspaper... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, if not... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Otherwise, we will give you a photocopy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Give us a photocopy. Such a thing in the record... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1347 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We will give you all the dates, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. This memorandum is being returned, which was not found. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, give it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A Persian, two Persian verses were read yesterday, what is its meaning? Excuse me, my glasses are a bit खराब(defective/faulty), let me clean them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Actually, I was submitting to you that these different stages are being known. So, please clarify that. The verses have already been read before as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I only have to read three verses and their meaning... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, of course. I'm just saying that what I meant in this is that it seems that Mirza Sahib changed his opinion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or later he called himself a prophet. Then he says he is not. So, there is a need for clarification of these two things. Otherwise, every extract's detail - meaning, you have already recited it before. There is no need. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Please speak. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You were busy with work, so I thought I shouldn't interfere. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Ansari Sahib was giving me some references. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yesterday two verses were read, and I will recite the next, third verse. ...and the meaning will become clear. Of those that were read yesterday, the first one, in "Dur-e-Masheen's" poem, refers to himself, meaning God has given every prophet a cup, He has given that cup to me completely. The second one that was read was: Though there have been many prophets, In spiritual knowledge, I am not less than anyone. And in response, I am reciting this poem: I am a mirror, For the sake of appearance, From the Lord of wealth, Also, from the city. I will translate it, it will become clear. Only the translation is enough in the answer: The cup that God gave to every prophet, the same cup He gave to me completely. Even though there have been many prophets, I am not less than anyone in spiritual knowledge. This is the translation of the poems that were read yesterday. And the answer to it, which is in the same place, is this... But... after writing all that, he says: But I am like a mirror from the Lord of Wealth, to show the world the image of the moon of Medina, Muhammad, peace be upon him. Yesterday, someone asked if any agreement was made in court. An agreement was made in court, and the court bound them not to publish their inspiration about anyone, and they signed it, and this is not in accordance with the dignity of a prophet. There was something like that, I couldn't remember in the morning. Anyway... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1349 This objection was raised on the 24th of February, 1899, almost one short of a hundred years, 1899, on Friday, and it was decided in this way. The whole article is there. It happened that: Mr. Beechi Bakhtiar: This was the court of the District Magistrate of Gurdaspur. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Dated February 24, 1899, Friday, the decision was made in this way. The parties were asked to sign notices on the subject matter, stating that in the future, no party should make or publish predictions of death or other hurtful content about any of their opponents." This is February 24, 1899. The truth is that six years before this, the announcement had already been made by the Ahmadiyya community on its own. This announcement was made on February 20, 1886, February 20/ February 20, 1886: In the announcement of February 20, 1886, this humble one invited Andar Mun Muradabadi and Lekh Ram Peshawari to have some predictions published regarding their fate, if they so desired. After that announcement, Andarsen objected (therefore, no prediction was published about him. I am saying this on my own. The words are that after this announcement, Andarsen objected) and died after some time. But Lekh Ram very bravely sent a card to this humble one stating publish whatever prediction you want regarding me, you have my permission. Similarly, before this decision, you made an announcement in an advertisement, before this decision. This has been my way from the beginning. It has been my way from the start that I have never published any predictive prophecy without the consent of the subject of the prophecy. 1350 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 124th Aug., 1974 Then the court is not bound by it, but the court's decision was the same as the one in which you had bound yourself before, and you signed it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Mirza, a question arises here, didn't he claim prophethood in 1886 when he first gave the advertisement that I had bound myself in 1886? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Didn't Mr. Mirza claim prophethood in 1886? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He didn't claim prophethood in 1886, but he claimed to receive divine inspiration. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this because you fixed the date as 1891 when he claimed to be the Promised Messiah. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, sir. (To a member of his delegation) Get it out. (To the Attorney General) Wait a bit, sir, let's look at it in the books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is confusion in this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Alright, 20th February 1886. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. -F Mirza Nasir Ahmad: At that time also, you had debates with Christians, Hindus, etc., and they claimed to be inspired, and it also contained warnings. So this is 16 years earlier. And the second advertisement that was given is after the claim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mr. Mirza, I was submitting this, you said, so I don't want to take much time. The question is that when a prophet receives a revelation, he doesn't say under the orders of a court that, okay, now that the court has ordered, whatever revelation I receive from Allah... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1351 I will not say anything about this. This question you see... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, so the answer I gave to that is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that they imposed these restrictions upon themselves. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not bound by the court, but they had announced earlier and said some time before the court's decision that, "It has been my way from the beginning that the warnings of prophecies are not publicized." It was not said that, "I do not tell" meaning "I tell my friends, in my circle, but I do not publicize them through advertisements and newspapers until they agree." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, for this reason, they accepted the court's decision? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Because of their own... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I mean that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It was according to their way of doing things. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This matter that was discussed in court, is correct, if you are telling this as the reason. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding the prophecy about Mr. Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib, you had said that even one part of it is not being fulfilled. Whatever you announced regarding Hazrat Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib, this matter of Mubahala, or contest, requires two parties, just like the saying goes that one hand cannot clap. So, you said, "Come, let us do Mubahala." The answer to this was given by Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib, which was published in the "Ahl-e-Hadith" paper in 1900, and we will also submit a photocopy of it along with this. The response Maulvi Sanaullah gave to this challenge, to the invitation to compete, was this: 1352 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug, 1974 Your writing (regarding who dies first and who dies later) is not acceptable to me, nor can any wise person accept it. Therefore, to say that there was a competition whose outcome was not what it would have been if children were involved, is out of the question. They have written: No intelligent person can accept your challenge to compete. This is a photocopy of the Ahle Hadith paper… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, along with that, if you have a copy of the advertisement of Mirza Sahib, so that… I have it too, so that… Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That is in this Ahle Hadith paper. This photocopy they are giving is from Maulana Sanaullah Sahib’s Ahle Hadith paper, in that… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In it, they have prayed, Mirza Sahib has… Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That is the prayer of Mubahala, that "if you agree to this prayer, then this competition and Mubahala will take place between us." They refused to accept this prayer, vehemently, that no intelligent person can accept it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And in it, this… Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And in this, the entire content is included in the Ahle Hadith paper, which they have denied, it is about that prayer. Maulana Sanaullah Sahib understood it as a challenge, competition, and Mubahala, and accordingly, he has responded. Otherwise, he would not have included that prayer in his paper. And I have included these in the proceedings here for the record. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Their advertisement also, in which they say… CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 24 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it is in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Whoever is a liar..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib, after copying the prayer advertisement, gave this answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is correct. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that he said in it that "Whoever is a liar..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "May God afflict him with plague..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "May God afflict him with plague or cholera..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have written the prayer for the challenge of Mubahala first. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Sanaullah Sahib said I do not accept it. The matter is over. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then it is also said that Mirza Sahib died of cholera. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I, yes sir no, correct, yes sir, correct, the question should be asked. 1354 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Sahib's death did not occur due to cholera, and at that time the doctor's certificate had to be obtained probably because the funeral was to be taken from Lahore to Qadian. The disease that caused it, after seeing all its symptoms etc., the doctors estimated, the doctors who came later could only make estimates. It is Gastro-enteritis. This disease has become very common these days. Its name comes up. And that is not cholera, because their... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Dysentery and... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Because its symptoms are fundamentally very different from cholera. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, some are similar but also completely different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, dysentery is also a kind of... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Someone who gets dysentery, if they buy and eat rotten fruit from the market and vomit, then that is not cholera but something else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, sometimes cholera happens, sometimes it doesn't. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, that's what I mean. So at that time the doctors gave this certificate that it is not cholera, and later doctors diagnosed it as gastro-enteritis, but that is later. About that, it can be said that they made their estimates from the symptoms. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what do you call this Maharbiyad, sir? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Mubahala - Mubahila. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So even forty years after that, Maulvi Sanaullah was still alive? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1333 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Mubahala did not happen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm just saying. Maulana, this that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I remained alive for forty years after the one that did not happen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After this advertisement, I mean... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, and in these forty years, the world witnessed a revolution that Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib, who kept trying to fail the community before and also after, he was not successful, and by God, the mission of the exalted Ahmadiyya continued to progress day by day. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, you are bringing up two more issues on that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am not bringing it up, I thought in passing about the forty years, maybe that would also come up in between. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Mubahala, Mirza Sahib! Can a Muslim do it with another Muslim, is it permissible? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In the beginning, the scholars challenged the founder of the Ahmadiyya Community to do Mubahala with us. And you kept answering them for a long time that in my opinion, Mubahala is not permissible with a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, let me tell you further, the matter does not end here, but the answer you were given by the scholars was that your excuse is not acceptable to us that because Mubahala with a Muslim is not permissible, therefore you do not want to do it. We consider you to be a disbeliever and for that reason you should do Mubahala with us. Its reference is available. ALLUNAL ASSEMBLY UP PAKISTAN 124th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then after this, after this, did the gentleman consider them infidels and give the message of Mubahala? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mirza Sahib then, when they insisted and issued a fatwa of infidelity, the founder of the series said that there is a hadith of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that whoever calls someone an infidel, the infidelity reverts and returns upon him. Then this happened. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This, about the prophecy regarding Atham, was asked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I mentioned it before. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. I have collected these from wherever they were scattered. Regarding the debate that took place with Aatham, I have already mentioned that the Muslims of Jandiala insisted on it. I don't think it's necessary to repeat it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Jang-e-Muqaddas"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Jang-e-Muqaddas" is the name of the book. The prophecy in "Tabligh-e-Risalat," Volume III, page 96 is: "Of the two parties, the one that deliberately chooses falsehood, deliberately chooses falsehood, and makes a helpless human being a god, will be cast into destruction within those days of the debate, taking one month per day (excuse me), meaning within fifteen months, and will be severely humiliated, provided they do not turn to the truth. And the person who is on the truth and believes in the true God (the One and Only God), his honor will be manifested through this." The thing that needs to be explained in some detail at this time is "provided that." The Muslim Ummah... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1357 It is a unanimous decision, of all sects and of this Ummah, from the beginning until today, that the prophecies of warning are conditional. "Conditional" means that if someone is told, "You are in this spiritual state, God has informed me of this." The one who says this says, "You will be punished." There is a condition attached to it, whether the condition is mentioned or not. For example, the story of the people of Prophet Yunus (peace be upon him) is mentioned in the Holy Quran. A prophecy came that punishment would befall them. But punishment did not befall them within the appointed time, and Prophet Yunus (peace be upon him) thought that the prophecy that God Almighty had told him had been made wrong. And he fled from there. That is a long story in the Quran, that then a lottery was drawn and he jumped into the sea and a whale, which swallows a human being without chewing, or any other animal that it finds, goes into its stomach. But before it could affect his body inside the fish's stomach and he would die, God Almighty created such a situation that the fish vomited him out on the shore and Prophet Yunus (peace be upon him) came upon the sand. That is a separate story. In any case, we are not concerned with that story at the moment. A prophecy was made which was not fulfilled for them, and God Almighty said that the nation had repented, so how could they be punished. I have written down these three references. If you want, I can read them, otherwise, I will submit them. One is Allama Abul Fazl Sahib's book of commentary, "Ruh-ul-Ma'ani Tafsir." In it, he writes that the prophecies of warning can be averted through repentance, turning to God, charity, and good deeds. The second reference is Imam Fakhruddin Razi, who is very famous. And the third reference is from the author of "Ruh-ul-Ma'ani," the second reference from the first book, the second reference from the author of "Ruh-ul-Ma'ani." If you want, I can... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Submit them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, I was explaining the principle, the principle, that the prophecies of warning are averted by prayer. 1358 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 are combined with repentance, charity, and bowing before God Almighty, and no one disagrees with this. From the Holy Quran until now, this prophecy is a warning, of Atham: And provided he does not return to the truth. So he returned, and the allotted period of 15 months was granted to him. But then a boldness arose in him. Some people provoked him. The proof was so clear to him that he could not deny it. The founder of the Ahmadiyya سلسلہ first challenged him that if you announce, advertise that I have not returned to the truth and my prophecy is proven wrong, then punishment will descend upon you, I am telling you this. So if you think you have not returned, then advertise, and I will reward you with one thousand rupees." When he did not accept this, he then said: "I will give two thousand rupees as a reward." These are the rupees of that time. And when he did not accept this either, he then said: "I will give a reward of three thousand rupees." Then he did not accept, meaning he did not accept to announce that "I have not returned." "I will give a reward of four thousand rupees." After presenting the argument four times, you wrote that "You did return to the truth. Meaning, this against the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Where this is, "Returning to the truth is the abusive language that was in your heart. This fear arose that I have spoken against a pure and immaculate being and that I would be caught in the punishment of God Almighty." This is the return. Meaning, there is no interference of your own in it. And since you are trying to hide the return you made, now I tell you that you will be afflicted with punishment. And there is a very long detail of the punishment he suffered and left this world. So it is a warning prophecy, a warning prophecy. He did return to the truth, that was it. Then he, he tried to hide it, and the argument was presented four times. Then God Almighty's punishment seized him. And that is evident to everyone. Anyway, this is our answer. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1359 The third prophecy is about Muhammadi Begum. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have a little something on this. One thing is that Mirza Sahib had prophesied that within fifteen months, this person would fall into ruin and be disgraced. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Provided that he does not turn to the truth." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Provided that he does not turn to the truth." Fifteen months passed, he did not die, he was not disgraced, as was in the prophecy, established fact. After that, the question arises whether he turned to the truth. According to Mirza Sahib, that is why this prophecy is not proven. Now Mirza Sahib gave in the advertisement that he should say whether he turned or not... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have completed the argument on this four times, increasing the reward, that you should announce that I have not turned to the truth. He was the one who had to say it, it was a matter of his heart. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I want to ask you this, I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, not yet... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then when a person turns to the truth, doesn't that mean that he repents in a way...? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From what he said. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It doesn't mean entering Islam after repenting. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's what it means. 1360 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying the same thing, that he had committed blasphemies, attacked Islam, and committed blasphemies against the dignity of the Holy Prophet. And when he turned towards the truth, Allah Almighty said that he is doing penance, so the prophecy will not prove true for him. He was forgiven. That is what I was saying. Mirza Sahib! Repentance means that a person who was against Islam and committing blasphemies against the dignity of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), he repented from that... And a person only repents sincerely before Allah, that is why Allah forgave him, he turned to Allah. But when these fifteen months passed, then in Amritsar they took out a very big procession, the Christians... Mr. Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In which some Muslims were also included, and they celebrated greatly that the prophecy of Mirza Sahib has proven wrong. And that person started blasphemies again, is this also correct? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He hid his conversion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am verifying the facts from you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, he hid the conversion. He never wrote it again to our knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that he... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He did not write after that either. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He committed blasphemies and after that, he openly challenged Mirza Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, there is no question of Mirza Sahib, he was just a servant. He himself did not involve himself again in the abusive language he used to use against the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1361 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He didn't say anything against Islam! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not to our knowledge. And within six months, God's grasp... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He died six or seven months later, so that's what they're saying, that he started blaspheming again, and then he died? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no, I can't clarify the matter further. The Christians etc. made a fuss that the prophecy turned out to be false. Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) said that "the prophecy stated, provided he does not recant, does not turn to the truth." And he turned to the truth, we have proof. And if he considers us wrong, then he should declare that he has not turned to the truth. And he avoided it, avoided making the declaration. Then you (Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him)) said that even though he has avoided this declaration that I have not turned to the truth, he has still shown weakness and is hiding his return. Therefore, Allah Almighty will bring him under Allah's grasp, and the truthfulness of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) will be revealed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Mirza Sahib, this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This thing, that temporarily the punishment is averted in this way, this kind of thing, is confirmed by the verses of the Holy Quran. Therefore, here are the verses of Surah Dukhan, that they said: After the prophecy of punishment: "Our Lord, remove from us the torment; indeed, we are believers. How can they have remembrance when there has already come to them a clear Messenger. Then they turned away from him and said, "[He is] taught [and] a madman." 1302 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug, 1974 Allah Almighty says: إنا كاشف العذاب قليلاً (We will postpone the punishment for a while.) But they will not repent, such are their circumstances. انکم عابدون (You will return to your original state in some form or another.) يوم نبطش البطيئة الكبرى انا منتقمون Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This challenge that they made to them in the holy war, this prediction that Atham made, did he accept that he accepts this challenge? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes. He did not deny it in the way that Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib did. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So that's what I'm saying, he accepted it. After that, he didn't even say to anyone that I had recanted. Only you say that he did not respond to Mirza Sahib's advertisement. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, he said, he said to his companions. When his companions told him. I have mentioned this; it is a long discussion. If they say so, I will start reading. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: So, in his circles, he said, "This mistake that I have made, and I am under the punishment of God Almighty." He had a nervous breakdown, he was so afraid, he started seeing strange things, apparitions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Sahib! That was a psychological effect on people. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Psychological effect LJUJ has an effect on... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar... I am talking about the prophecy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Keeping the greatness and glory of Muhammad Rasulullah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in mind, this has had a psychological effect on him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Psychological effect, that's what I'm saying, that's what I'm saying, psychological effect can happen in any way. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That must have happened to him. But despite that, I say, he accepted it and then he did not die and then you say that he turned to the truth. Well, he did not become a Muslim. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that he comes and then he does the same things. You say he didn't do the same things. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am saying this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A missionary Christian is working against Islam, for seven months Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He tried to hide the return to truth, and tried to cast doubt on the prophecy that God Almighty had made for the establishment of the greatness of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). 1364 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Plainly, I want to clarify that before Allah Almighty, he repented, Allah Almighty knows everyone's heart, knows the intention, that this man is deceiving me, he will hide it and that is not his intention, he will become a Christian again and do the same things. Why was his repentance accepted? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is what is in the verse of the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is what I am asking you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the Holy Quran says that "We know that they will do the same things again. But temporarily, as a result of their prayer, we avert the punishment." I have presented those verses here. And about Pharaoh, it is in the Holy Quran that the punishment was averted from him 9 times, then another came. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! This is Amir, he never said that he repented. You say that it would have been done privately. He did not say it in any of the replies to the advertisements. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He repented and the proof is that when he was told that if you have not repented, then announce it, he did not come to this side. The person who had not repented and the founder of Ahmadiyya was after him that "if you have not repented, then announce it." So he did not announce it. It means that he announced, in another way, indirectly, that "I have repented." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: On this, Mirza Sahib! That which Mirza Sahib said in the last speech, that which was their debate, Jang-e-Muqaddas (The Sacred War), in it he said that: Tonight it has been revealed to me that when I with great distress and supplication... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1365 Mr. He prayed to God in this matter to decide, and we are helpless servants, we can do nothing except for your decision. So, He gave me this sign as a glad tiding that in this debate, whichever side deliberately chooses falsehood." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I had read this before. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And is calling a helpless human God. Meaning Christians consider a helpless servant as God, Jesus. Did Atham not consider a helpless servant as God after that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now we have reached this point that warning prophecies can be averted with repentance, but the question is whether he repented or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's the question, isn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that repentance, you say that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I understand that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is because he considers a helpless servant as God, that's why he is a liar. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, this is a long discussion. Let me read out a reference, it's small, it sheds light on this as well. When you gave the first prize of one thousand rupees, these are the words of that advertisement: To settle this matter, who will be victorious, whether the people of Islam as it actually is, or the Christians as they think through oppression, I am ready for Mubahala to expose them. If they do not refrain from lying and cunning... 1366 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Come, then, let us pray in this way: that a date be fixed and we, the parties, be present in a field. And Mr. Abdullah Atham should stand and declare three times in these words that during the period of this prophecy (during the period of this prophecy). Islamic awe did not come upon my heart even for the blink of an eye, and I considered and still consider Islam and the Prophet of Islam, peace be upon him, to be on falsehood, and the thought of truth did not even occur to me. And I have believed and continue to believe in the importance and divinity of Hazrat Isa, and in the books and in it, which the Christians of the Protestant sect hold, and if I have done contrary to the fact (these are the words above), and have hidden the truth, then O God Almighty, send down the torment of death upon me in one year. We will say Amen to this prayer. And if the prayer does not take effect for a year and the torment that descends upon liars does not descend, then we will give one thousand rupees to Mr. Abdullah Atham as compensation. This is the first advertisement. Now in this, you have explained what is meant by renunciation, which he did, and if he denies it, what renunciation does he not acknowledge. And this, it is, the same as what you were saying, Christianity: And he should acknowledge that the awe of Islam did not fall upon me and I have considered and still consider Islam and the Prophet of Islam, peace be upon him, to be on falsehood and the thought of truth did not even occur to me. And I have believed and continue to believe in the prophethood and divinity of Hazrat Isa. So this is the renunciation. He was denying this. And these are the same words that you mentioned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand that this is a challenge after a challenge. And if that was not acceptable either, they would say I will give more. First, they only said that Christians consider a humble servant to be a human. This challenge was given to him. That challenge proved to be wrong. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1367 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And after that, he was told that there is another challenge for you from me. Then I will give you one year. Even if he doesn't die on that, they say, "Take another change." These are later things. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: These advertisements did not come after one year each. Someone has told you wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in the advertisement, he gave him another year that if he takes an oath within one year and doesn't die, I will give him one thousand rupees. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A human being who is a humble servant of Allah Almighty does not take power into his own hands and make an announcement unless Allah Almighty tells him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir. Allah Almighty told him that he would die within fifteen months and would surely die... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And then that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He will be humiliated and disgraced. Then it didn't happen; he didn't die. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anyway, we understand, after looking at all this, we understand that the person who goes through all this detail, we think, we may be wrong, we think that the person who goes through all this detail will draw the same conclusion that we have drawn. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Mirza Sahib! Another question arises on this. There was an American who also made some claim. So that I want to bring both pictures... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is not related to that. 1368 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, it was separate. I have read about it, that he really died, that the period Mirza Sahib had said that he would be disgraced. He who was in Zion City. He said that Islam would end. It was mentioned in the American newspaper. Then it was published in "The Islam" in great detail, all those were given. Dowie was it, or Dewey? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Dowie. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So Mirza Sahib gave them the same challenge? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: This mention of Dowie has already come in our record. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, I have read it in detail in the book. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In some connection, the mention of Dowie is in the record. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is yours. Yes, I say that Mirza Sahib gave them the same challenge, that within a certain period, some time was given, a year, eight months, two years, I don't remember that he will be disgraced and die. And that book "True Islam" which I saw, it says that he was disgraced and died, but he did not accept the challenge on any pretext. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: He did accept. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, your newspapers are saying that he ignored it. On this So you say that the prophecy came true despite the fact that he did not accept it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, oh, it happened, I understand.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And about Sanaullah, you say he did not accept it, this Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I understand this, I understand your point. I will answer. First is prophecy, and then there is Mubahala. There is a difference between these two. It was a prophecy about him, not Mubahala. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1369 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, in this, there was a challenge that he should accept it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, the challenge was in the color of prediction. And here in the color of Mubahala. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the prediction about Atham, I asked. You said Atham had accepted it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That was Mubahala, Mubahala with Atham, and this word of Mubahala has come later as well. There is no doubt in our chain that the Mubahala was with Atham. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Prediction comes in this as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And there was prediction with Dowie. And there is a difference between these two. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There was no prediction with Sanaullah and Atham? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There was Mubahala with Atham and that Mubahala happened. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, and there was prediction in the Mubahala. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And Mubahala's challenge was given to Hazrat Maulana Sanaullah Sahib. And he said in the form of a prayer that he wants to do this in Mubahala. And he refused saying that no wise man can accept your challenge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's fine, then about Atham, did he make a prediction in this Mubahala? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A color of prediction is also in Mubahala. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Prediction happened in Mubahala though? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is in the form of Mubahala. The forms of these two are different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did he challenge Dowie and Padwick in the same way? 1370 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I did not challenge Dolly, I told Dolly, "You are at a place where I am telling you that you will come under the wrath of Allah without Mubahala." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, I will tell you the book, he was approached that he says, about you, in India, Prophet Ahmad is giving you this challenge. Are you accepting it? He said, "No, I ignore. Such insects keep wandering around." A very contemptuous language he used. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is no Mubahala in my knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not Mubahala, I said he was challenged, he was told to accept, he refused. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Look, it was sent, stage by stage. He was challenged, he did not accept it. The question of Mubahala does not arise. But in refusing, he then used dirty language. Then a prediction was made about him without Mubahala. This is the third stage. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will bring that book. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Is there more to go? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there is still one question in it. The Maulvi Sahib told me to draw your attention. I don't want to waste your time, it's just that after this prophecy, many such followers of Mirza Sahib were very worried and disturbed that why this prophecy is not coming true. Among them is a chief of Malerkotla, Muhammad Ali Khan. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1371 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. President? I couldn't hear the name. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Muhammad Ali Khan, who is a servant and a lower servant of Mirza Sahib, has expressed his worry about the non-occurrence of the prophecy in his two letters. So, these are the two letters here. In them, he says: "Has your prophecy been fulfilled according to your interpretation? No, not at all. Abdullah Atham is still safe and sound. This death sentence has not been written for him. If this were true, then understand that the prophecy has been fulfilled according to the words of inspiration as Mirza Khuda Bakhsh Sahib has written, and the apparent meaning that was understood was not correct. Firstly, there is nothing visible that has affected Abdullah Atham Sahib. Secondly, the words of the prophecy are: Now, of the two parties in the debate, the party that deliberately chooses falsehood and forsakes the true God and makes a helpless man a god, will, within these days of the debate, taking one month per day, that is, within fifteen months, be cast into the abyss and will be severely humiliated. These letters are... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Now he is their... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The next Muhammadi Begum? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. 1372 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The first thing I want to say is that ten relatives of Muhammadi Begum, saying that this prophecy has been fulfilled, entered into allegiance, that family itself. And secondly, I want to say that Muhammadi Begum's son gave an advertisement, a photocopy of which I will submit here at this time. (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar Mirza Sahib! If you could first give the brief facts of it, because many members do not know what happened, then after that, if you... (Interruption) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. The brief details of this prophecy are that a part of the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement's family had turned away from Islam and was using very dirty language and foul language and insolence and impudence against Islam. So, it was a warning prophecy for them. And in fact, the prophecy is: If you do not turn back to Islam, which you have abandoned despite being born in a Muslim home, and if you do not refrain from the blasphemies you are committing, then Allah Almighty will send curses upon your house in such a way that it will be destroyed. And your state of enmity at this time... I am working as a humble servant of Islam. Your mentality is that you have no connection with me, there may be a relationship, but we have no connection. And you can never even imagine giving your daughter in marriage to me. And the prophecy is: "From your family, that is, from that part which is mentioned, Allah Almighty... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1373 bring destruction, one after another will die, and to the point you will be humiliated that you will be ready to marry your daughter to a man like me." But as with cautionary prophecies, they repented, and Allah Almighty averted that prophecy. And repentance, then the repentance of that family, that ten members of the family entered Ahmadiyyat. And their own son wrote this to Muhammadi Begum. That original, which I just mentioned, its summary, he also mentioned it, the son. I will read that too, so that it may be verified, if anyone has any doubts. This is an advertisement given by the son of their Muhammadi Begum: The same picture is seen here, that when Hazrat Mirza Sahib's قوم (community) and relatives... He has written this sentence, but the original of this prophecy is related to relatives, Muhammadi Begum was a relative, right: When your relatives disrespected, to the point of denying the existence of God Almighty, made war against the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and the Holy Quran, and advertised that we should be shown a sign. In response to this, Allah Almighty, through his مامور (appointee) made a prophecy. According to this prophecy, my maternal grandfather, Mirza Ahmad Baig Sahib perished, and the rest of the family turned towards reform. (By the way, there was another death in this family) The irrefutable proof of which is that most of them accepted Ahmadiyyat, so Allah Almighty, under His attribute of Ghafoor-ur-Raheem (Most Forgiving, Most Merciful), replaced wrath with mercy. This is an advertisement from their son, and I am now submitting it. I have written down the names of that... family; I didn't read them out because it is unnecessary. 1374 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug, 1974 Here.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not him. His father's name was Ahmed Baig? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These relatives of his, of Muhammadi Begum, were they against Mirza Sahib? You said they were against Islam. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They were against Islam, they used to insult the Holy Quran, they were deniers of Allah Almighty, and they used to mock Islam openly in their gatherings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said, didn't you, that they said, "Tell us some sign, Mirza Sahib!"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mirza Sahib did not show the sign to his opponent, Mirza Sahib showed the sign to the one who denied Allah Almighty, insulted the Holy Quran, and spoke words of disrespect about the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want to verify some facts first, then... Ahmed Baig was the father of Muhammadi Begum. Ahmed Baig's sister was married to Ghulam Hussain, who was Mirza Sahib's cousin. The marriage was with Ghulam Hussain, who was Mirza Sahib's cousin, is that correct? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Ghulam Hussain Sahib, around the time this incident happened, had disappeared some twenty (20) twenty-six (26) years earlier, he disappeared, unheard of. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And his property was inherited by Ahmed Baig Sahib's wife. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1375 had gone, or a part of it had come into it, but Mirza Sahib also had some part in it because he probably did not have children? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whose? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Ghulam Hussain Sahib, who had disappeared. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The property that was left, Ahmed Baig's sister, who was his wife, Ghulam Hussain's, she was Ahmed Baig's sister. All the details that have been given to me, I am going by them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. I can also read this, you can compare. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let me do this, then you point out any mistake in it because you... These are what have been given to me: Ahmed Baig's sister was married to Ghulam Hussain. Ghulam Hussain disappeared. No one heard his name for a long time, nearly 25 years. Then his property came in the name of his wife. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is her name? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The name of the Begum is not given. She was Ahmed Baig's sister. Ahmed Baig wanted that this property, which belongs to his sister, should be transferred to his son. And for this, it was necessary that he also gets Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib's consent because he also had some title in it, they were cousins. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, some legal title. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, legal title. So he appeared before Mirza Sahib and Mirza Sahib was asked to sign it, so it could be transferred to his son. 1376 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug. 1974 Because my sister has no objection to it. So, Mirza Sahib said to them that "it is my habit that I perform Istikhara in such matters and after that I will give you an answer". You note down the facts that have been given to me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After Istikhara, he said to them, after two or four days or however many days passed. That if you marry your daughter Muhammadi Begum to me, whom Allah has married in heaven or in the sky, then it will be good for your family. (Yes) Allah's mercy will be upon them, there will be blessings upon them. Otherwise, the girl will also be in a bad condition and as far as Ahmed Beg is concerned in your family, he will die within a period of two to three years. And the man, the person to whom Muhammadi Begum will be married, will die within a period of two and a half years. This is the incident of 1886. After that, Muhammadi Begum's father refused this marriage. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which incident is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1886. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1886. Yes, yes, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am clarifying this from you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay. (To a member of his delegation) Write down 1886. (To the Attorney General) I didn't understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then after that, he refused to give the marriage proposal. Then Mirza Sahib wrote letters to some people in this regard who were relatives of him and also relatives of Ahmed Beg. He wrote a letter to Mirza Aali Sher that: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION "I have come to know that this wedding is happening soon, in a day or two after Eid, and you are also attending it. And whoever attends this wedding will be my biggest enemy and an enemy of Islam." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who will not attend the wedding? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who will. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because Mirza Sahib says that he will be our enemy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He will be an enemy of Islam. He also wrote a letter to Ahmad Baig, in which he said, "Do you know what I have predicted (what is my prophecy)? And about ten lakh people have become aware of it. All Hindus and priests are waiting for this prediction. Maliciously (the words he gave me) are waiting for it. I request you to help me fulfill this prediction so that God may have mercy on you. No man can quarrel with God. This is God's will because what has been decided in heaven will happen." So, this gist that I have been given, sir, I am doing it from that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is this a reference or a gist? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, a gist that was written to me in English from the books. 1317 Wrote a letter... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, meaning there aren't references to books here? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, those will come. Mirza Sahib's letters, that is. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am reading the gist of those. What Mirza Sahib wrote to Ahmad Baig. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the whole is a very interesting story. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you may say so. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is an accident which took place. The way they make stories for older children. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so look at this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And for that, its original... no, actually I understand, we'll send the draft to you after writing it. Letter. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, but the deal he wrote to Mirza Ali Sher, then to Mirza Ahmad Baig. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we'll take this letter along with our reply. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, they have... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, these have been noted... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That these are facts. You tell them that if they don't write these then that's another matter. If any content inside the letter has changed or... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Changed, context changed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. That, you and Mr. Khalil should file, that will be the best. I don't want there to be any misunderstanding. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because I... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you allow me, just regarding that, nothing else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib! I just want to complete these facts, so that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After this background, then he wrote this letter to them, and told them, "Help me with this." They didn't agree. Apparently, that's what happens. So after that, Mirza Sahib told his son, Mirza Sultan Ahmad, who was opposing Mirza Sahib's marriage, I have been told this. He told him, "I publicly disown and disinherit you." Is this correct? And also. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is "Is this correct?" a question to me or is it part of it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, I am verifying it, Verification. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, there is a complete answer to that. This is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, these facts in between, he is asking whether these are...facts... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we will answer all of them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you will answer. I am saying, these things, these events. Judge Agha Sarfraz: Yes, yes, they will note this down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (To a member of his delegation) Yes, note this down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sultan Ahmad opposed, and Mirza Sahib disowned him, disown him, and even told his mother that the day Muhammadi Begum marries someone else, you are divorced because they were related to Ahmad Beg. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am listening. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Similarly, Mirza Sahib told his other son, Fazal Ahmad, to divorce his wife because she was Ahmad Beg's niece. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have heard it. It is not my turn to answer yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that these are facts. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I said to note them down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That's right, everything should be clarified. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. He said this to him and disowned him as well, disinherited him, because he was probably not divorcing his wife to fulfill Mirza Sahib's prophecy. After that, Muhammadi Begum married Sultan Ahmad. After that, Mirza Sahib said that this is not a matter of my hope, it is a matter of my faith that this prophecy will come to pass, even after the marriage. Six months after the marriage, Ahmad Beg passed away, and his husband was supposed to pass away after two and a half years. So first the husband should have died, then Ahmad Beg. Anyway, Ahmad Beg passed away first. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1381 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who received the news from Allah Almighty as to who should die first? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I am not saying this, I am only taking this inference that if I say that this person will die within two years, he will die within three years. So the two-year one means he will die first. That's why it was said for the husband two and a half years, for the father three years.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it is that Zaid will die after three years and Bakr will die after two and a half years, and Zaid dies, does not die within three years, and he dies within two and a half years. And Zaid dies after six months and he dies after a year, then both things will be correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the map will change. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right, I am saying that he should have died first, but he did not die. Sultan Ahmad, who was the husband of Muhammadi Begum, was a very tough kind of man. So he did not die. And after that, a period of two and a half years also passed. And then he went, he remained a great soldier in France. He was shot several times in the war, in the war of 1919, but he still did not die, and the result was that Mirza Sahib never married Muhammadi Begum, never got married. So these are facts. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This was a warning prophecy, it was shaken. That's right. These are the facts that you have been told. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so I say that you should verify. If they are wrong. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you are kindly ordering us to clarify this. 1382 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, indeed, that's right. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is a summary, so there is no question of references. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I mean, it's a summary, isn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I have summed it up, whatever facts you gave me, I was reading them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's why I said it's a very good story. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so that you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I mean, he hasn't given any references anywhere? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This that is a summary. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, in my opinion, these are ten or twelve books from which this is an incident that such a thing happened. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If he just tells us the names of those ten or twelve books, without mentioning the pages, then we will find them in between. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I will find out about it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Some were given by him, some were given by others. But I got these facts from them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, okay, I understand, I understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you say that any fact in it is wrong, that it did not happen... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1383 Such a letter was not written, or such a disowned son was not... Mirza Nasir Ahmad or his subject is different, or its context is different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, the topic comes later, I am stating bare facts. I am not saying that Mirza Sahib spoke in these exact words. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I mean if the general impression from it is just the opposite of all the facts... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is another thing. Look, Mirza Sahib! I am submitting this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I will respond. I am not even responding yet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I said that my position should be clear on this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is clear, your position. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That he wrote a letter to Ahmad Baig... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That position has been noted completely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Wrote a letter to one of his relatives, threatened him... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All of that has been noted. It will be revealed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Told his son to divorce his wife. Told the other son that you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When I respond, the facts will come to light in their true form. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I said these facts, that he divorced his wife. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, we will see all of that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, the question was, if it was Allah's will, then why so much effort was made by humans? 1384 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 There was no need to tell people, "I will do this, my prophecy will be fulfilled." This... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, when the answer to this comes, it will be known whether the Muhammadi Begum prophecy has been fulfilled and her family has become Ahmadi... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: People do become Ahmadi, sir, that is another matter, sir, that family... Mirza Nasir Ahmad saying this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If your Mirza Sahib's sons are not becoming Ahmadi, then this is not a matter at all. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who? For example, Mirza Sultan Ahmad Sahib did not become Ahmadi? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I thought, you also said that day that he did not become Ahmadi. He did not even attend their funeral. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He was the youngest son, he had passed away. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean whatever, any son should be. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This Mirza Sultan Ahmad Sahib, whom you have mentioned, he did become Ahmadi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Despite that, he did not accept the matter. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, he became Ahmadi later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Later? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Understanding that the prophecy has come true... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alas, that he repents so soon. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1385 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The wedding happened, Muhammadi Begum left, then what's the point? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: (Qibla) No, then, there is no element of humor in it, one must see the truth. Mr. Chairman: I will request the honorable members to restrain their sentiments. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, shall we have a five minutes break? Mr. Chairman: All right, ten minutes break. The Delegation is to report back at quarter to one. Ten minutes for honorable members. The Committee is adjourned for 10 minutes. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) (The Special Committee adjourned for ten minutes to re-assemble at 12.45 p.m.) (The Special Committee re-assembled after the break, the Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the chair.) Mr. Chairman: The Delegation may be called. (Interruptions) I will request the honourable members if anything comes from the mouth of the witness which is appreciated or which is disapproved. We should out make gestures. HANISTAN Aug 14, 1974 Yes, absolutely, please call them in. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Attorney-General. Please, have a seat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the other day I had referred to certain extracts from "Al-Fazal" relating to Akhand Bharat, and now I am giving those dates to Mirza Sahib almost to start because I may have given "1947", I may have mentioned "1957" or something, but these are the correct dates:- April 5, 1947...... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Al-Fazal" ......? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: April 5, five April, 5th April....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 5th April...? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1947; 12th April, 1947; and then 17th June, 1947; in May also, there are two numbers of May also, Let me see those as well. Then there is, Sir, August 18, 1947, which I have not mentioned before; and December 28, 1947. These are all from 1947. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From those... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because what I have, you see, are photocopies, last page... ... something comes over. So that may mislead, that is why I want you to check it. I have just read to you that day: In the end, I pray that, O my Lord! Give understanding to my people. And firstly, this country should not separate, and if it does, then it should be in such a way that the paths to reunion remain open. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is what it is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The photocopy of this last page... it could be .... misleading. That's why I said that you should check it and file it for us. So that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, very good. Either "Al-Fadl" or its photocopy, whichever is possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whichever is possible in both. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Anyway, this will happen very soon. Haven't you seen which dates are in May 1947? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Makki says no, those are the dates I had written down. So they say they have checked that it is in December in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay! No, leave that, cut out "Hasti". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's it. Regarding Muhammadi Begum, you will submit your answer, you said. Just one more question from you... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have a small request in this. Otherwise, they write points... He said, "If you, Librarian Sahib, write that same short passage, then give it to us, so that no points are missed and then..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Also, I have noted it in English. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Give the English note. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will read and tell you so that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it is difficult to write from here. We just want a rough note, a rough copy of this note. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I have mentioned the relationship of Ahmad Beg ----- Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, that is my rough estimate that there were fifteen points regarding which light needs to be shed. If one is missed, then there will be a question that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said that these facts that everyone has mentioned, I will repeat them in Urdu. If you can write them down, because if that's the case, then... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If we get it in writing, then it would be great... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My remaining notes are all mixed up. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Yes, that's fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, otherwise, I wanted it for that reason. Anyway, I will try to get them typed and give them to you today. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Have them typed today and give them to me. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, okay. OSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1389 Mr. Chairman: Alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Muhammadi Begum, you say that her son had pledged allegiance and given an advertisement. How many sons did she have, do you have any knowledge? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The ones I know are two. One Ishaq and one Safdar. Or what other name is there? Anyway, the ones I know... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Her sons? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The sons I know are two. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You only know the ones who became Ahmadi, don't you know the rest? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that's what I'm telling you, let me finish. Only one of them became Ahmadi, the other did not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, I was told that she has six or seven sons. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I think there might be four. Only one became Ahmadi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only one became? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, one became. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then I will give you, these details, the facts that I have given. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Alright, you give them. I mean, my point is that no fact should be left out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, alright, so that... I might ask you questions about the advertisement regarding Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib, which hasn't been seen yet. 1390 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Because The rest of what you said yesterday that you would say, I had noted, is all that... Did Mirza Nasir explicitly say it? What was it about that I said I would say something? Mr. Chairman: References were given yesterday. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, isn't there anything else you want to say? Mr. Chairman: You gave references yesterday. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: You gave many references regarding evidence. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, so on that I said some brief comments, Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, no, there can be two approaches to it. We will act according to what you say. One is that we already have a very detailed refutation of all the references. There is a book called Haqeeqat-ul-Mahdi, Khalifa Sani's. All the references are discussed in it. And the second is in Rawalpindi, not here with us, there was a debate in Rawalpindi called "Mubahisa Rawalpindi", which has 86 pages of discussion on the same references. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That would be a very long discussion. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, that's what I'm saying. One is that I read it out. I don't know how many days that would take. That's not appropriate. One is that I read out two references here, two references that basically resolve this discussion in our opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That would be a good thing. You must definitely do this. So that it becomes brief. Secondly, this question that comes up, and the Lahori party has also raised, that Mirza Sahib's CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1391 Some denial of prophethood, as they call it. Is it abrogated, or should it be considered abrogated? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning this is wrong, there is no such thing? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not abrogated. I will say it briefly here in two or three sentences. The meaning of "Nabi" is not Shariah-related; it does not mean one who brings a Shariah. The meaning of "Nabi" is not independent. And non-Shariah independent. And a "Nabi" has been used in the sense of non-Shariah "Ummatī" (follower). And the fourth, the word "Rasool" has been read in our English in general books, in its literal meaning, so the word "Nabi" has been used in these four meanings. In some meanings, there has been denial, and in some meanings, there has been affirmation. This is the essence of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, now I will give you an example. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That I had a question of this type, I will look at it, but there is no need for it yet. There was a certain Abdul Hakeem Sahib. Mirza Sahib had some discussion with him and told him that people are getting the wrong idea. When I use the word "Nabi," I mean "Muhaddith." And wherever the word "Nabi" has been used in my writings and speeches, it should be understood to mean "Muhaddith." Meaning there is a claim of this kind that it does not mean that I am a prophet, as you say, it is used in the literal meaning or in that sense. But after that, he then says that these words are still used for "Nabi," except that it is deemed to be read "Nabi, Muhaddith." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then the discussion of "Nabi" and "Muhaddith" started again, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying it like this. 1392 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What I mean is that a discussion leads to another discussion. Then you allow me to start a long discussion... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I ask you briefly this. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Or should I submit it in writing as well? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, do that. I wanted to know briefly whether Mirza Sahib... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Mirza Sahib has... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The true prophet, the word that you used... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, I am reading a reference, it will clarify something. Something will be clarified, not everything will be clarified. You have written this book, it is a small pamphlet by the founder of Ahmadiyya movement, its name is "Aik Ghalati ka Izala" (Removal of a Mistake). The basic discussion has come in this "Aik Ghalati ka Izala" and I think I should submit it in the record. But I am only going to read a reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It would be kind of you. The Rawalpindi discussion that is, that we asked, we don't have that either. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, should I submit that too? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, submit that too. You said that the thing is already in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, yes, we will submit the Rawalpindi discussion as well and "Aik Ghalati ka Izala" as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And from "Aik Ghalati ka Izala", I will read out half a page, or three-quarters of a page. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI DELEGATION Where I have denied prophethood or messengership, it is only in the sense that I am not an independent prophet. (The same I have stated, that a prophet is independent.) (That I am independently) not one to bring a law, nor am I an independent prophet. (Neither a law-bearing prophet, nor an independent prophet). But in the sense that I, having received inner blessings from my leader and guide, the Messenger, and having obtained his name for myself, have received knowledge of the unseen from God through him, I am a messenger and a prophet, but without any law. (There is no law). I have never denied being called a prophet in this manner. Rather, it is in these senses that God has called me a prophet and messenger. Even now, I do not deny being a prophet and messenger in these senses. And my saying: "I am not a messenger, nor have I brought a book" This only means that I am not a bearer of law." And it has come above that "I am not independent." Anyway, this is a reference from Izala-e-Auham, which I will send today from here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! There was no misunderstanding for me in this because I had read this, it is very clear. But the thing I was asking you about... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Muhaddith one is left. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, not even the Muhaddith one, that thing has come up. Then here they say that in 1907 too, he said this… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Lahore group said that he said this in 1907 too. I said that as far as I understand, it is very clear. What was said before?, here they have… 1374 NATIONAL ADDEMOLI UT TANIDIAN 12401 Aug., 1974 has made a clear position that "I am an Ummatī (follower) prophet, not a Sharī'ah (law-bearing) prophet." And this is the position. There remains the matter of verbal organization as well. Since he says that he had denied it even in 1907 that "I am not a prophet", that's why I brought all these references so that you could authoritatively clear it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That will be included in that, won't it? That book will come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I have left it at that because I have directly asked you about this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Yes, that's right. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have a few subsidiary questions, about Maulana Sanaullah, is it correct that this announcement was not given as a challenge for *mubahala* (prayer duel) but because Maulana Sanaullah Sahib was fed up with the reaction, that the said Maulana Sahib used to shower abuse and accusations on Mirza Sahib? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the reference? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This question has been asked. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, this question has been asked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. You say that this was not because of or as a *mubahala*, but this announcement was made because Mirza Sahib was very annoyed and... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, what I said was that the Ahmadiyya Community had invited Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib to a *mubahala*, which he did not accept and said that no wise and knowledgeable person can accept it. Therefore, that *mubahala* did not happen. CRUSS-GAANIKNASON is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then there is one thing that comes up, you see, what you read. And this writing of yours is not acceptable to me, nor can any wise person accept it. You forgot to read the first sentence: In short, I am ready to take the oath according to your request if you informed me of the result of the oath. This was another condition from their side. If they didn't give it to you. This He said that this writing of yours is not acceptable to me, nor can any Giver accept it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then this will be the question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, the one that has been marked for you here. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, let me tell you, read two or four lines before that, then that Will clarify them. We gave it as a photocopy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So we leave it, it is on record. I just want to draw attention draw wanted to do. (Pause) Then there are two more questions ahead. In my opinion, their answers can come from this, but I I will read it: Is it correct that the challenge of Mubahala was not based on any inspiration or revelation, but merely as a prayer. Did Mirza Sahib want a decision from Allah Almighty? So this is one question. The second is that: Isn't it true that in the prayer of this advertisement, the focus is not towards Maulana Sanaullah? NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 but was from Allah Almighty and Mr. Sahib addressed Allah Almighty and prayed that whoever is a liar and a deceiver should die first? Since this document has arrived, I think if you deem it appropriate... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, all of it has arrived in detail inside it, if you don't read all of it, then all the answers will come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir, when the document is filed on it.... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you don't have any other answer ready? I'm checking. If I have missed something or you... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes sir, you check it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am doing it, isn't there something you want to say at this time? You see. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: One thing that has just come to my mind while talking, so you had said that there should be a commentary on Surah Fatiha that has not been before. So these different commentaries on Surah Fatiha that you have done I had referred to the same book, it is a long passage in it, it will take a lot of time. So if you say so, I will do this book... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's fine too. No, but you should tell me, sir, Surah Fatiha's seven... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The details of Surah Fatiha that I have done, I had said that according to my estimate, 70 percent of it is such that it is not in the previous books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was just saying that it is a small Surah, it has seven verses. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1397 Point out any one of them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is all its explanation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mark any one of them. So that for my attention, you can tell me that this page contains this Surah. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You read it so that it will be easier. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will write here first, meaning besides other topics, see page 82 as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That will come here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning on this page. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It has been written at the beginning of this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Another reference here is from "Kul Chashma Maarifat" 218, this is regarding languages, in which language the revelation happens. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I forgot one language, in Sanskrit as well... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is the original text. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I might have forgotten, I was told somewhere that Mirza Sahib used to receive revelations in Sanskrit as well, or is that incorrect? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I don't remember in Sanskrit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was told, that's why I put it to you. I said... 1398 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug 1974 If I didn't read it, I was told. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Actually, we have to see what the subject is that is under discussion. The subject is Hindu, Vedas and their avatars, this discussion is going on there, and the discussion is: No one will consider this absurd because it is against the law of nature And while we see that after two or three hundred years, some change occurs in a language And similarly when from one place, for example, at a distance of hundred (100) miles (For example, if they leave Lahore and reach Multan) then the interpretation of the clear language is felt. So it is clearly proven that the difference of Allah is an ancient matter". (This discussion is going on.) [The difference of Allah is an ancient matter] which the present situation testifies to. So it must be admitted that the one who created man also created their languages And from time to time He brings changes in them. And it is absolutely absurd and nonsense that the original language of man is something else (he is addressing the Hindus) and inspiration comes to him in some other language that he cannot even understand because it is in it There is an unbearable burden (which man cannot bear as much as has been placed on him) and what is the use of such an inspiration that is beyond human understanding (meaning no human being can understand). So when according to the principles of Arya Samaj (this is on them charge) So when according to the principles of Arya Samaj, the language of the Rishis of the Vedas was not Vedic Sanskrit and they were not able to speak and understand it. (All of this Sharia was revealed in such a language that the Vedic Rishis could neither speak nor understand, and the Sharia was revealed in that language) and then God's revelation to them in such a foreign language was knowingly depriving them of His teachings. And if CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1399 Say (addressing the Hindus), and if you say that God made them understand in their language that these expressions have these meanings, then in this case the post of a prompter will not remain valid that it is forbidden for Him to speak in a human language. (This is their issue that it is forbidden for Allah Almighty to speak in the language of humans. That is why they say He revealed His inspiration in such a language that humans could not understand it at all. This issue is under discussion. If this is speaking) then I am surprised what benefit the Aryas have from presenting these very raw and immature things." This is the statement. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar Mirza Sahib! What is it in the Holy Quran on this issue that whatever prophet Allah Almighty sends to a nation, in what language does He give them revelation? Is there any such authority? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I'm coming to that, but it doesn't connect with that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm just asking generally. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The Sharia of Allah Almighty in that language, actually this issue has to be stepped back a little. It was not an issue for the Jews because whatever inspiration or Sharia was revealed to the Children of Israel was for a limited nation and area. That was their language, that was everything. The real question arose at the time of the revelation of the Holy Quran, which mentioned the designation of Mercy for all the worlds, this position, this rank, and presented the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, to the world. Now, only one language is not spoken in the world, languages are spoken in the world, that is, even those we know are in the hundreds. And there are many that cannot be counted. And the Holy Quran has made this claim that every human being is addressed by the Holy Quran. At that time, this debate took place that if every human being God Almighty addresses through the Holy Quran, then why was it only revealed in Arabic? This debate 1400 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug. 1974 It started. The answer given was that the Holy Quran was revealed in Arabic so that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) could prepare a nation in the light of this Sharia who would understand its meaning, purpose, and secrets, and then they would leave Arabia and go to the countries of the world and learn their languages, and whatever the meanings and purposes are, they will be firmly in their minds, they will then tell them in their languages. So logically we deduce from this, logically, no Sharia or part of Sharia can be, no part of Sharia can be revealed in a language that people cannot understand, those who have been trained, I am talking about the time of the Quran now, who, after receiving training and understanding these meanings, had to spread it in the world. But this does not mean that no revelation can be revealed to the followers of the prophets or saints except in the language they know, i.e., which is related to non-Sharia. One is Sharia, that is only with Muhammad (PBUH)... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, to them It will be in their own language. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It should be so that its purpose is fulfilled, and that which is non-Sharia and whose scope of action is limited only to its own nation, as was the case with the prophets of Israel, if inspiration comes to them in other languages as well, I am saying this now, it is our religion. We have no proof against it, against it and in its favor, besides searching for proofs, etc., reason itself testifies. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Sahib, did you speak Urdu, Persian, or Punjabi at home? Because there was a time when Persian was spoken in many homes, Punjabi in many homes, and Urdu in many homes. So, you would know that at home... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I was raised in that house. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1401 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's why I'm asking you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our house, generally, Urdu and Punjabi were spoken. But the elders among us, for example, in the time of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him), there were reciters in the homes sometimes... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I am saying that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, so Persian was also used at that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: All the educated Muslim families... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And English was also common in our homes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not in Mirza Sahib's time? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not in Mirza Sahib's time, but it came in his children's time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, well, you know that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And in Mirza Sahib's time, the preaching of Islam had started in those areas which were English speaking, and a series of preaching of Islam had started with the English-speaking priests even in India. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the ones I read in English... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And that is why, during the time of the Qadiani Silsila itself, a monthly "Review of Religions" in English was started. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know that. No, the revelations that were revealed to him, some are in English, I have read them out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have read them, they are from different times, they are not all in one place... 1402 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the revelations come together.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not in one place the revelations come together. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I know that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Did it ever happen: .."I love you" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, there are one or two others too. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Did it ever happen that: "He will give you a large party of Islam." So these are of different times. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, so on this, I read somewhere, Mirza Sahib! that Mirza Sahib called a Hindu child and asked him what this revelation meant in English? He couldn't understand it properly because in those times fewer people knew English. So, I was thinking that... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, calling a Hindu child, it could also be to tell him that this is the blessing of Islam that even today people receive revelations. Look, I am receiving this revelation. Knowing that he doesn't know enough English to explain it to me. Still, the point was to tell him that Islam is a very blessed religion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you are right that they themselves didn't understand what the revelation meant, this thing, you see, it becomes apparent from this, and Allah Almighty sends a revelation to one of His prophets that they don't understand. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, they themselves didn't understand but there were people in the environment who did. I understand that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is admitted. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There, both things are there. Where the Hindu is addressed, it is said that neither the sages of humans understood it, nor did any other human. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here it is, why would Allah speak to them in English when they do not understand English? I am just saying this. So you said it, that's fine. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We are very humble people, we cannot go and explain the wisdom to Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I don't say that I know the wisdom. The rest, whatever few answers you will give, Mirza Sahib! I think today that will be done. One is that Muhammadi Begum, and the rest was the detail, right? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, by writing that, whatever you gave, you will give, I will submit that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. We have noted some things, I will get them typed now, even if you leave, I will send them to you later. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, we will submit it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. And then there are a couple of other things. So that will be done in the evening, because Ansari Sahib has to ask some questions regarding alteration. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Regarding alteration. And Ansari Sahib will ask two or four more questions. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have to tell about Muhammadi Begum in the evening anyway. We hope to conclude it as soon as possible today. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Isn't it over yet? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, those questions that I have to write and give you about Muhammadi Begum. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that probably won't be done by this evening, then tomorrow. When I submit it... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, just submit it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will send it tomorrow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's alright. Do you have to answer something else now? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. And what else is there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, complete those. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. There was a reference that came up January 3, 1940, "Al Fazl." So, we searched for it, but no reference was found. There was one from Fatwa Ahmadiyya. We have taken out this page. This is probably one of those that you had written pages for but didn't make an article out of. What was the article about? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is the page given? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have taken the page out, so what was the original article? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1405 were. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I'll see right now. You... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, if that can be found, because in the end, you had those pages written down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I wanted to read it. One can't tell from the whole page, that's why I wanted to read it, but there was a little less time. Which one is this, "Fatawa..." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is Majmua Fatawa Ahmadiyya, Volume 1, Page 149. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which page was it? Volume 1, Page 149. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. "Majmua Fatawa Ahmadiyya, Pages 138-149." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, page 149. Here's what I've written: "Are those who do not believe in the Promised Messiah infidels or not?" A person asked: "Are those who do not believe in you infidels or not?" The Holy Promised Messiah said, "Go and ask the clerics. According to them, what is the condition of the one who does not believe in the Messiah and Mahdi who is to come? So, I am the same Messiah and Mahdi who is to come." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, you did not say "infidel." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just saying, is this a reference? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, this is a reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So, you, I had said that you should explain it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is nothing to explain in this. It says that: "A person asked, 'Are those who do not believe in you infidels or not?' The Holy Promised Messiah said, 'Go and ask the clerics. According to them, what is the condition of the one who does not believe in the Messiah and Mahdi who is to come?'" In this, he is the same Messiah and Mahdi. 1406 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1972 Has it happened? That was about to come. The answer had to be given by the scholars in this, you didn't give anything. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The scholars' concern is that the Messiah who will come, whoever does not believe in him is a Kafir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whose Fatwa is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The scholars we have say that whoever does not believe in the Messiah when he comes... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And they accept us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you accept us, that is why we don't accept you, that's why we are Kafirs. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: According to what the clerics say. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Absolutely. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The clerics... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But in this sense, disbelief does not exclude one from the Muslim community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you also don't refute the logic of the clerics, you also agree that the Promised Messiah will come... Absolutely. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, that has happened. I mean that the meaning of disbelief is different there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, we have come to know those meanings in great detail. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Then it is alright. That is done. The fifth part of Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1407 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there anything you want to read out to me? Passage? If there is, then that first. Mirza Nasir Ahmad? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If there is any other passage, if I have given a page, then I will read it out to you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that is what I am telling you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if I have given a page and you have not found the passage then I will read it out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So this is "Nusrat-ul-Haq" "Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya Part 5", on its page 591 69, yes, yes, you read a passage on its page 54. This is the part in which it was mentioned that I did this trick, I did this cleverly. "Quran and the Messenger and this." This is not mentioned on any page. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then that must have been missed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then that, that is what I mean, that we searched but did not find it. On account of this, this also happened. And? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And there is nothing else. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The ones that we noted at that time, those have come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, did you not find it anywhere else? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, absolutely not. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And there isn't anything else with you, sir? 1408 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, no, and no one else. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There was one more, sir, I think I may not have told you, there were some blank pages in between: The number of miracles of our Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has only turned out to be three thousand. (Tuhfa Golڑviہ, page 40) And the number of his miracles… (Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya Part V, page is the same, 54): As told is ten lacs. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay, well, I will answer it, I will tell you what our belief is. Our belief is that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a living prophet. A living prophet is not in terms of physical aspect; your physical life is limited, we know how many years he lived. But your spiritual life, which extends until the Day of Judgment, is why we consider the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be a living prophet. And one of the notions that we have in our mind regarding the living prophet is that as a result of your spiritual life, such individuals will continue to be born in the Ummah of Muhammad until the Day of Judgment who, due to your spirituality, will continue to present the signs of God Almighty for the proof of the truthfulness of Islam before mankind. And since the common man... in his view, two lives are created, right? In the view of our circle, the ones who are sensitive, that spiritual life has been going on from the first day. Therefore, where one said this, it means in our view that the relationship of the spiritual life of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) with his physical life... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1409 was with him, in that era the world saw three thousand miracles, and will see crores until the Day of Judgment, all those are the miracles and signs of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). But these miracles were seen in the time of Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Usman (may Allah be pleased with both of them) in their time. Hazrat Umar once called out, how far away was it, fifty, a hundred, sixty, approximately a hundred miles away was the army, and that scene came in front, and he saw that the commander of the army was making a mistake and he guided him from there in panic, and Allah Almighty created such means that the voice reached the commander's ear a hundred miles away. And the army was saved from such a mistake, as a result of which there was no loss of life. Now this miracle is not of Hazrat Umar in our opinion, it was of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Similarly, Hazrat Masih Maud has written in the Ummah of Muhammad that crores of saints of Allah have been born and kept showing the miracles and signs of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to the world, but in common parlance we say that the miracles of Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani, we say that the miracles of Imam Baqir, etc., etc. Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) has a small reference from "Tatimah Haqiqatul-Wahi", I will read that out: Islam is an ocean of heavenly signs. No prophet has manifested as many miracles as our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Because the miracles of the previous prophets (it is related to the first topic that I had). (Because the miracles of the previous prophets) died with their death, but the miracles of our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are still being manifested and will continue to be manifested until the Day of Judgment. Whatever is manifested in my support is actually all the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)'s miracles. Mr. Baini Bakhtiar, don't you have any other reference? 1410 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: There might be a mistake, but those who have noted it say no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I also forget, sir, it has been too much. Now there are two or three brief questions. One is that upon the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate, did your party tell the English Lieutenant Governor of Punjab that we have no religious connection with the Turks? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We have no connection with those sects? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We have no connection with the Turks? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: With the Turks, with the Muslims... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No connection? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I don't remember. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is an address, given to the Lieutenant Governor. As far as I remember, it said that "because we have our own Caliph, therefore we do not consider them as Caliphs." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, in the sense that we have our own Caliphate, and we have this relationship of Caliphate and obedience with the Turkish Caliphate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So in the context that we have no connection with them? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: In that sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is possible that it is so. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, yes, it is this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since I do not have the address at the moment... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, but practically it happened that the people of Hejaz fought against them, the people of the Holy Shrines fought. I had mentioned that those were different kinds of battles, they were not religious jihads, which... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1411 These verdicts are placed upon them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, and one more question: Is it correct that when Baghdad was occupied by the British, when Iraq was lost from the hands of the Muslims, at that time, did the Qadiani community celebrate with lights? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I have already answered this, that at that time... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! Look, if all Muslims do something at the same time, like you said, your answer gave the impression that all Muslims celebrated with lights on that occasion. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: What is its date? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The date is not written here; this is a historical fact. When Baghdad was occupied by the British... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The historical fact is that the war had ended. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it was the end of a war. That Poppy Day has been happening all over the world, on November 18, 1919, after November 11. That lighting was done in the whole country. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: November nineteen hundred...? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: November 1917 or 18. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: November he, or jumla, or ya, okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It was November 11, 1918. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: That's why I asked if the date was known. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this happened on a separate date during that time, not on the same date. If it happened on that date, then I would take that question back. If it was on that date... 1412 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I apologize if it has come up again, I didn't check it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please check it. I didn't even ask before, but when you mentioned the illuminations yesterday, I was informed. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will submit this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those illuminations, the fighting was all over the country, it was over. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Should I submit two or three pages in writing about this fighting? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The shorter the better. All the annexures that are coming are being printed. Then they are giving them to the members of the assembly. Therefore, the shorter it is, the more they will read and look at it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are just keeping us in the dark. We should also get a copy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you are sitting here, everything happened in front of you. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Aren't they sitting here? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is the committee's order, I am just... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh, okay, I was just saying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is secret. They don't want the public to... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I am requesting the committee, very humbly, very politely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the committee will definitely consider it. The thing was that they wanted this thing that is... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1413 left. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In these circumstances, he should not go out. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Well, that is not the argument. I will give it, very briefly, as much as possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because if it is a celebration that the government of the Muslims of Iraq... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will check which one it is, that is one thing to check. The second to check is what was the reaction of the Muslims of India at that time, it is possible that they expressed anger and we celebrated with lights. So this clash comes up, doesn't it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want to point out that when the war ended, all the Hindus, Muslims, Parsis, whoever was a British subject here, everyone celebrated with lights, so it might have happened in Qadian as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have noted this point in my mind. According to it, briefly... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Apart from that, no Muslim in Iraq celebrated with lights on the same occasion, you did, they say. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, of Iraq. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So I am saying that you verify it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, you say that it happened, or are you saying that I should verify it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, I am saying that this is an allegation, you should verify it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, verify it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only you did it and the others didn't? 1414 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The others haven't? Yes, that's right, this is also something to verify. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Begum Sahiba says it's half past one. So then, let's adjourn for the evening. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are we meeting in the evening? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the evening, yes. I said before, Maulana Sahib will ask... Mr. Chairman: Yes, we are meeting in the evening. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Two or three questions about the distortion of the Quran are still remaining for you to answer in the evening... Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is permitted to leave for the present. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...... This is not my subject. And besides this, there are two or four more questions, they were saying, I said, still ask anyway. Thank you, Sir. Mr. Chairman: The honourable members may keep sitting till six o'clock. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Chairman, Sir! If I may, some other members of this delegation can also answer some of the questions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anybody you like, Sir. I do not have any objection. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION (The Delegation left the Chamber.) 1415 Mr. Chairman: Yes, I think, by this evening, we will be able to discuss so many things with others. The Reporters can go also. They are also free. The honorable members may keep sitting. The Special Committee is adjourned to meet at 6.00, and by that time, the honorable members may come prepared for any question which may be left over. Thank you very much. The Special Committee adjourned for lunch break to re-assemble at 6.00 p.m. The Special Committee re-assembled after lunch break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali), in the chair. Mr. Chairman: Call them in. Yes, have them seated outside. The Attorney-General may also be called. Call them in, the Attorney-General is seated outside. It will be done today, God willing. Hopefully. It has been many days now. Today is the eleventh day. If we finish today, then there will be no tomorrow. Tomorrow was kept in case something is not finished today, then tomorrow. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Mr. Chairman, before you call the witness, I would like to address the chair. Mr. Chairman: Stop them for a bit. Stop them right now. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 124th Aug., 1974 -yes ATTACK ON MNA Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Mr. Chairman, I have to disclose with great pain that this afternoon, at half past three, when I was returning from the Hostel, on my way back home to a place where I am staying at Chaman and when my car came near the National Assembly of Pakistan, a jeep was coming from the direction of the State Bank building. The jeep overtook me and it then started going ahead of me, as if they knew which side I live. First, the jeep was coming faster because I normally drive my car faster. I started driving slow. then the jeep also became slow. Then, when you cross those diplomatic houses, there is a crossing of Ata-Turk Road with Fazal-i-Haq Road, and there is a very depth like this and there is a very blind corner and there are bushes all around. The jeep turned towards left and there was a rapid sten-gun fire on me and I have escaped with the grace of God Almighty and it is the God's blessing that I am speaking to you in one piece. It is just God's blessing, it is a blessing of the people of Qasur who pray for me, it is the blessings of my Bazurg (%), it is the blessings of my friends that I am intact. And this was a murderous attack and this is very serious. I don't impute motive to anybody because that will be going beyond my scope, but I am just giving this information to you. Sir, and it should be on record. The case has already been filed with the Police Station, Islamabad. Islamabad Police is investigating. But, Sir, the matter is very serious and it needs your consideration. Sir, if you will not protect us, because you are the symbol of democracy, you are the symbol of rule of law in this country, if you will not defend us, Sir who will depend us? And if we have to depend ourselves in this country, if everybody starts holding guns, then, Sir, this country will not find anything, there will be no society and there will be no law. There will be absolutely chaos, there will be bloodshed. And Sir, we have already passed through a blood-bath. We know what is a blood-bath and we don't want blood-bath in this country. ATTACK ON MINA Sir, if this type of incident takes place and if we feel that we are not protected by the rule of law, by the Administration, then we will have to protect ourselves. And when everybody started protecting himself, Sir, you know, it will result in total chaos, it will result in disintegration of the country. And, Sir, for God's sake, let us save this country. This country is lying in shambles. We are already finished totally. Let us emerge together as a respectable country. Let us emerge together as a country which should have respect in the comity of nations. And, Sir, great responsibility lies on your shoulders, because you are the symbol of democracy in this country. I have brought this matter before you and before my august colleagues. I have not put any motive, I have not given any directions that so and so body was involved in this attack, but I am leaving everything open, everything open, because I am a very fair man, I am a very judicious person. I am leaving everything open, but, Sir, nevertheless, particularly the protection of each member of this House is your responsibility. And if we are not protected in Islamabad, in the metropolis, in the capital of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, a member of Parliament is not protected, Sir, then, Sir, you can well imagine the fate of a commoner in some far-flung area of Tobe Tek Singh, who is not all that important, who is not in Islamabad, Sir. So, Sir, I am bringing all these matters with all the humility at my command. I am really, Sir, pained. I am not pained because this attack is on me. If today this attack is on me, tomorrow this attack can be on anybody else. So, I am worried from that angle, Sir. Sir, I am a peaceful citizen. I might not take gun in my hand, but the possibility is that if this attack is on some person who is more aggressive, he might hold a gun in his hand and, Sir, if the gun battle will have to start in this country, then let us wind up this House, let us wind up these institutions. Then what is the need for having these institutions, these traditions? These traditions and institutions are for the protection of an individual, for the protection of rule of law, Sir. And, Sir, this is a great responsibility on your shoulders, Sir, and I know, Sir, you must be worried about it. 1418 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 24th, 1974 You know, I can feel, Sir, that you are feeling upset because this thing can happen to anybody. Sir, I need your protection, I need the protection of this House, otherwise, Sir, if the House will not protect us, then, Sir, we know how to protect ourselves and that will be going too far. With these words, I thank you very much. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Ahmad Raza Qasuri. Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: May I say a few words? Mr. Chairman: Just a minute, you have to tell us what protection the House can give you. And definitely every member is entitled to any protection. Since you have gone to the Police, you have registered the case, the matter is sub judice, because they will investigate the matter. As for the protection which the House can afford, it is not only available to you, it is available to all the members inside the House, and whatever means or to whatever extent our jurisdiction extends. Whatever Mr. Qasuri has said, it is on the record. The rest is for him to tell us. And definitely whatever is within our powers or whatever we can do. Yes, now they may be called. The case is registered. Now it is for the Police to investigate. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION A Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! About what I said about Iraq, you said that it happened at the end of the war, that is also referenced in the Munir Inquiry Report. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You stated that you should first tell whether the rest of the Muslims did not celebrate or were upset. So it is written here like this: "The celebration......." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The actual date is needed in order to check. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, Munir Sahib writes: "The celebrations at Qadian of the victory when Baghdad fell to the British in 1918 during the First World War in which Turkey was defeated, caused bitter resentment among Musalmans and Ahmadiyyat began to be considered as a hand-made of the British." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Which peace is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1918 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Has he given any date? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: During the war, Sir, in 1918. During the war, in November, I think the war ended. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This must have happened a little before that. 1918. 1420 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1918. So, we searched for and found the eleven o'clock newspaper. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, everyone did that, there was an announcement from the General Government. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everyone did that. This is a separate incident that affected the Muslims... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, then we have to check it. The newspaper is not here with us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Another thing I was mentioning to you in the morning... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is 198, isn't it? Page of the Munir Report? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 196. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir, that's right, that's right, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 196. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Secondly, I was saying, what you said was American, Dowie. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Dowie? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, who claimed to be Elijah. So, Mirza Sahib challenged him. So, if you see, the way Mirza Sahib challenged Maulana Sanaullah, it is the same way. The matter is also this and... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the way Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib reacted, is Dowie's reaction the same? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Maulvi Sahib still said that if this is the case, then I am ready. He ignored it, he said, "I will not answer, I do not accept." This is what I wanted to point out to you. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question is, should we compare and then give its report? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes, that's why I'm saying there are two parallel cases. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Exactly. That's why I am drawing your attention to page 179, this "True Islam" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Page 179? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Starting from page 179. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Ahmadiyyat or True Islam"? 1421 No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 179, this is from my edition, which is from 1937. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 37? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is when the Dowie story comes up, in which he narrates... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I understand. The question is, is there any parallel between them, any difference, what is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. I believe that both are parallel cases. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will check and give a written statement. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at it from this point of view that here also he says that... They are parallel cases: "This challenge was first given in 1902 and was repeated in 1903 but Dowie paid no attention to it and some of the 1422 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug. 1974 American papers began to inquire as to why he has not given reply." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We have the complete details of this, they gave it to us by copying. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, all the details are given here in this book. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not that much is in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The American Express newspaper has been quoted. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Was. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, a lot is given in it. So, in the same way, he refused. Then after that, they say that the prayer was accepted and they were disgraced. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, one ignored ..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir. Then he was asked. He said, "I refuse to take notice......" I have not read that further. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "I refuse to take notice and I refuse to accept." There is a lot of difference between the two. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Exactly, Sir, he refused. Maulana after all said that "I am willing to accept." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anyway, we will compare and write it for you, submit it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It was written here by him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have understood the question. After taking out all the references... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1423 "Dr. Doui paid no attention to it and some of the American papers began to inquire as to why he has not given a reply. He himself says in his own paper of December 1903: "There is a Muhammadan Messiah in India who has repeatedly written to me that Jesus Christ lies buried in Kashmir and people ask me why I don't answer him. Do you imagine that I should reply to such wags and lies. If I were to put down my foot on them, I would crush out their lives. I give them a chance to fly away and live." He said a big thing, that's what I'm saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I said the same thing, didn't I, that there is a big difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, whatever the difference is, as far as I understand, he also ignored the challenge, rather he said with contempt that I do not take any notice of it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And he got the punishment for contempt. And they said " No wise person can accept it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he said if you do this, fulfill this condition then I am ready. He said that I am ready. But you imposed a condition on your own. So in any case, he also refused here, and a curse was made here and a curse was made there too... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: After his refusal, a prophecy was published for him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everything is in it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, everything is not there, this is just a report... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And I say that at the time when he cursed, he said 1424 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug., 1974 He died. You also curse and I also curse. Whoever is the liar will die." Then he said to Maulvi Sanaullah: "You also curse, I also curse." He cursed Allah Almighty that he is bothering me and he should die of cholera and plague, whoever is the liar. I am doing this in parallel. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I understood that you are doing this in parallel. So, I would like to submit this after doing my parallel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I wanted to draw your attention. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, okay, it's noted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, on that line. Thank you very much, Sir. Now this Maulana will ask you something about distortion. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We had promised to give a book in this, it is a debate of Rawalpindi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: "Aik Ghalati ka Azala" (A Correction of Mistake) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That also came on record. Towards it. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: And what you said about "Al-Fadl," its photocopy... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Thank you very much. The one I had was a small copy. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. We have done all that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said that so that there would be no misunderstanding. Now the last page is this, which is its... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You, sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I had sent that note. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I got it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you, Sir. Nothing more. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You had said that Hazrat Ansari Sahib would ask this question regarding the distortion of meaning or the distortion of the Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He said regarding distortion because he was dealing with that subject. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I want to say that there are some fundamental things in it that I want to state at the beginning. And after that then... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is up to you. That is from your delegation, as far as you all... The role of the Speaker Sahib, Chairman Sahib is that if the leader can speak himself, he should speak. If they feel that they are not feeling well, like Maulana Sadruddin Sahib is an old man, he cannot answer, he cannot hear, then he said that whoever is the alternate should do it. You, by the grace of God, can speak well too. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I can hear too. I just wanted to say this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you think that he has prepared, he will deal, I think that is not the case. You are also a Hafiz and ... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: He will do it. Mr. Chairman: I think, my observation is that it would be better if the reply is by the witness himself. Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is another complication also, Mr. Chairman: My observation is based on the ground that the Committee has authorised the Attorney-General to put the question only and, as far as Tehreef-i-Quran is concerned, since we had ourselves acknowledged that the knowledge of the Attorney-General in Arabic text is not as good as in others, so, for the Arabic text, the help of Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari has been obtained. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I submitted to Mirza Sahib...... Mr. Chairman: That is the reason. Jashar Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: that I am not competent to deal with this question and Mirza Sahib is fully competent to answer. And if he asks any other member of the Delegation, the difficulty is that he will have to be given oath and he will have to second his evidence. So, to avoid that, Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, the oath probably takes five seconds. Mr. Chairman: No, we are getting the help of Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari only because Maulana Ansari can speak fluently Arabic. That is the reason. If the Attorney-General had been fully conversant with the Arabic language, the question would have been put by the Attorney-General. Now it is up to the witness. The weight attached and the responsibility......The witness himself has been replying........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the responsibility will be mine. Mr. Chairman: One minute, listen to me. If the answer is by the Chairman, it would be better. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But you allow him to speak too? Mr. Chairman: Two can speak, but I would say that if you answer yourself, then the authority will be better in it, there will be more weight in it, there will be more responsibility on it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: When I am taking responsibility and I think that he should speak instead of me. If you allow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay sir, we have no objection. I have explained the position. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, the actual decision is to be made by the chair. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Chairman has said that... Mr. Chairman: That will carry more weight because, in ten days, all the answers have come from the witness himself. The members of the Delegation are there to help the witness. So, it would be better. We cannot force the witness to reply to any question. So, on the same pretext, it would be better if the witness himself replies because witness is more conversant than the members of the Delegation, it is presumed. It would be better. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is left to your discretion. Mr. Chairman: It is up to the witness. 1420 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974' Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is left to your discretion. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay then. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari, Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Did you want to say some fundamental things? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will say the fundamental things. I want to say these fundamental things regarding the subject of distortion of meaning. Distortion means to alter. And for distortion of meaning, it is necessary that either the entire interpretation of the Holy Quran is determined, only then can alteration occur. If the interpretation itself is not determined, then the question of alteration does not arise. Or it is that the principles of Quranic interpretation are before us, and then we see which principles have been violated. Anyway, I will give my opinion, the decision is up to you. In my opinion, there are seven criteria for the correct interpretation of the Holy Quran. The first criterion is the Holy Quran itself. The Holy Quran is the word of God. And this is the universe, 'Alamin' is said in Arabic, this is related to God, it is His action. And it is in Surah Mulk that you will not find any contradiction in the action of God. There is no possibility of contradiction in the word of God either. Meaning that it originated from the same source, and one verse of the Holy Quran says something, and another says something else, this is not possible. Therefore, the first criterion for the correct interpretation of the Holy Quran is that no other interpretation should contradict the interpretation in question. And secondly, that evidence for that interpretation itself should be found in other verses of the Holy Quran, number one. I will be brief so as not to take up time. The second criterion is the interpretation of the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (peace be upon him), which has reached us in such a way that we believe it to be correct. I am saying these sentences because the narrators... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1429 has reached us through. After the Quran's own evidence, these are the traditions that the interpretation Takes the Quran to the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. So that interpretation which is the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him Reaches us through traditions, every Muslim will accept it and consider it correct. Will give. This is criterion number 2. The third criterion is the interpretation of the Companions. In our literature, there is also the interpretation of the Holy Quran which the Companions Has reached us from the honorables, may Allah be pleased with them, and we give preference to it because Many of you spent a significant amount of time in the company of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Remained and continued to learn the Holy Quran. Some had less time, some had their own intelligence and character And all that. But the main thing is that they listened to the words of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, you They received his training, therefore, the Quranic interpretation that reaches us from the Companions through authentic traditions The honorables is the third criterion of the Quran. The correct interpretation of Karim. The fourth criterion is the interpretation of the saints and righteous of the Ummah. The Holy Quran, as I have On one occasion, a brief commentary on the Quranic verses was given here: (Arabic) From the beginning of time, saints and righteous people have been born in the Ummah of Muhammad who have acquired knowledge from Allah. a By obtaining knowledge from the Almighty, interpreted the Holy Quran, and interpreted it to solve the problems of their time Explained. So this is a criterion. We also value the interpretation of the eminent righteous people who have passed away. Will see with the eye. This is our fourth criterion. The fifth criterion is technical. No such interpretation of the Holy Quran can be correct In the interpretation of which, such meanings are given to any word of the Holy Quran which the Arabic dictionary does not mean. Arabic There is great breadth in the dictionary, no doubt, and sometimes a word has five meanings, Sometimes there are ten meanings, even fourteen have been made, maybe even more. At that time 1430 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug, 1974 Only ideas have come to my mind. So any such change that the literal meaning is such that the dictionary does not accept it, that an Arabic word has also been used in this meaning, is worth rejecting. So this is technical. And what the Arabic dictionary accepts, it is not necessary to accept it. Rather, the other criteria that we have, according to those, it will be tested. If it meets all the criteria, then it will be accepted. But if the dictionary does not allow it, then we will have to reject it. The sixth criterion is the comparison of the word and deed of Allah Almighty, that is, the science side is saying. This objection was raised that religion is against science or science is against religion. This is our belief. This is the belief of a Muslim, of everyone, that this universe, this creation of the worlds is the act of Allah Almighty. So no such Quranic change can be made which is contrary to the word of Allah Almighty. For example, if a person extracts this from the Holy Quran, I am giving an example, "...... ..... I have given such an example which is obviously wrong, so that it can be understood. And if someone interprets the verse of the Quran that the moon is ten billion miles away from the earth, does it from the verse of the Holy Quran, theoretical side, and science is saying that no, this is its distance. So if the act of God Almighty is proven, then any interpretation of the Holy Quran against it is worth rejecting. Consistency between action and speech is necessary for Quranic interpretation. I have done these seven. I had written this at the end, I have done it at the beginning, that is, of meaning. That is, when we talk about semantic distortion, then the determination of meaning is necessary. And that determination cannot be done because new topics will come before human beings till the Day of Judgment, changed problems will arise in changed circumstances and at that time the Holy Quran is there to help human beings, it is our firm belief. It comes and solves those problems. So for this reason, to limit it to any time that the interpretive meanings of the Holy Quran were the ones CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANTORQUE DELLA SA to a dead man, this is not correct, logically it is according to the Holy Quran. But these are some limits, and some criteria, which will have to be kept in mind regarding the issue of semantic distortion. I had to say this, and now, Maulvi Sahib, take an oath from them. Mr. Chairman: The question may be put, then we will see who replies, whether it is the witness who replies or it is delegated to any member of the Delegation. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Sir, before semantic distortion, I will only present one example of literal distortion. Which is from the Holy Quran: (Arabic) Surah Hajj, Syed, the word "min qablika" has been removed from it. And "Rohani Khazain": "Izala Auham" published by Al-Shirkat Al-Islamia, Rewa, 1958, is also the same. And Izala Auham, old version, written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, is also the same, meaning there are many mistakes that we can understand that these Mr. Chairman: Only the question may be put, not the argument. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay, so I should explain it, sir! Can I explain it? Mr. Chairman: You can explain it. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay. So I am leaving out all those things in which it is possible that there is no special intention in mind, but a mistake happened by chance. Here, since such a word has been removed which is the basis of the difference in beliefs between Muslims and Ahmadi gentlemen, and that is that the messengers have been coming before you, they will not come after. So if the word "qablak" is removed, then there may be a possibility that they can come later as well. So this is a matter of fundamental belief, that is why I have only chosen a verbal distortion. Because time is very short and I am content with this to the extent of verbal distortion. Mr. Chairman: That is all. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I think I should read everything. Mr. Chairman: No, ask turn by turn, one by one. Is the witness not prepared to answer this question and wants some member of the Delegation to answer it? Mr. Abul Ata (Member Delegation): Now, my request is... Mr. Chairman: No, first. I am putting it to the witness. Is the witness not prepared to answer this question? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I want Mr. Abul Ata to answer it. Mr. Chairman: Then you will have to state as to why you do not want to answer this question. Then I will ask the member of the Delegation to reply. You will have to state the reason. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If I remember correctly, when we left here, permission had been granted from the chair at that time that they could answer. Mr. Chairman: I had not given it. Only when the question has been put and the answer is to be given by the other member of the Delegation, then the Witness has to give some reasons also. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: Does that mean I have to explain every question? MR. CHAIRMAN: No, if all the questions about the distortion of the Quran have the same answer... MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: This is about verbal distortion. MR. CHAIRMAN: If you can answer, then answer, okay? MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: I mean, it's that simple. MR. CHAIRMAN: Give the answer, okay? MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: I will give it anyway. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: I wouldn't mind if Mr. Abul Ata gave the answer. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, you give the reasons. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: If you allow. MR. CHAIRMAN: There must be reasons. MIRZA NASIR AHMAD: The distortion that has been attributed to the Ahmadiyya community, all of that should be present in your speeches, in your time, in the editions of the Holy Quran published during the time of the Khalifa of this community, in the translations of the Holy Quran that were published. This distortion, which they say was deliberately removed, should be there. But to give an example from one book and ignore the dozens of editions of the Holy Quran and its translations published by the Ahmadiyya community, and those editions of the books of the founder of the Ahmadiyya community that were published, in which the writing errors were corrected, and to infer from only one incident is not correct in my opinion. After all, this is the same book from where they... 1434 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 24th, 1974 has taken, reprinted repeatedly, and they only took from one place. Mr. Chairman, Maulana Sahib! The answer has come, the answer has come. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I gave two references, in fact, three references. One, it doesn't say "min" in it. But "Izala Auham Qadeem Nuskha." The second is "Ruhani Khazain," published by Al-Shirkat-ul-Islamia, Rabwah, 1958. After that, "Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam," Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - published by Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya, Rabwah, 1970. Mr. Chairman: There is a definite reply by the witness that in all Quran Majids published by Jamaat-i-Ahmadiyya, there is no omission of this word. There is a definite reply by the witness. So, if it is not there, the question must be coupled with a book. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I did not say that it is in any copy of the Quran Sharif, but rather the verse of the Quran Sharif that is quoted in this book and an argument is being given with it, it is in all three editions. Mr. Chairman: Do you have the book? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I have a photocopy. Mr. Chairman: Yes, answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So we have published and distributed millions of translations of the Quran Sharif, in millions of copies. Our children read it. We have that "Hamail" without translation, that is for children. This mistake has not happened anywhere. If there has been a mistake anywhere, then it has published so many Al-Fazl. If it's anywhere there, then I would get it fixed. So all these mistakes of writing, these keep happening. Mr. Chairman: Next question. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1435 Now we break for Maghrib. We will re-assemble at 7:30. The delegation is permitted to leave. The honourable members may keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman, Maulana Mufti Sahib, please sit down, we need to discuss something. Maulana Abdul Hakeem Sahib! You have come today, please sit down. Mr. Ansari! How many questions do you have approximately...? One second, about the distortion of the Holy Quran? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I think that now, since the House has decided that it has to be finished today... Mr. Chairman: No, not you, you tell me approximately, how many are there approximately? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Today, there is nothing left now. I will request the House that ….... Mr. Chairman: No, I am asking him, approximately how many questions there are. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: That's why I will do this, I will take one example of the distortion of meaning. Mr. Chairman: Yes, yes. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: And then, the verses of the Quran that they have applied to themselves, I will read out two or four examples of that. Mr. Chairman: That would be better. After that, we will do it this way, from 7:30, 7:45 to 8:45, one session. Then, after fifteen minutes break, we will finalize it. 1436 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: 3, there is no need of it. I think we will finish in one hour's time. Mr. Chairman: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let us continue no further. Mr. Chairman: For finalizing it, then all the members must make up their mind for anything whatever, if any omissions are left out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That we will think now; and let me know if they want to ask any question. Mr. Chairman: Yes. So, this break will be utilized for that purpose. Thank you very much. And we meet at 7:30. The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib prayers to meet at 7:30 p.m. The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghrib prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the chair. Mr. Chairman: Send them over here, Mr. Tasawari. Maulana Abdul Haq! Everyone, please be quiet. Maulana Abdul Haq: My request is that Maulana Ansari had said this. (Arabic) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1431 It is not in your three books. Then again, editions of those books have been printed three times. It still does not have "Min Qablika". So, it is as if they have verbally distorted their books. Now, if they say it is a mistake, a mistake can happen in one place, or two places. Mr. Chairman: I would like to submit that they have responded to two things. One, they said it is not in our Holy Quran. Secondly, they have admitted that it is indeed not there. They said it is a typographical error. Therefore, what you wanted to prove has been proven. You wanted to prove that they have omitted a word from the Holy Quran in their books, which they have admitted. The rest is a matter of discussion, as to "Why did you do it, or for what reason?". There is no need to go into that. You have gotten them to admit one thing, that this book indeed... Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The submission is that they were aware of this book. Despite that, they did not correct the second edition. After that, they did not correct the new edition in 1970 either, and left it with those errors. The objection is simply, why was it left with errors? Mr. Chairman: You asked a question, they said it was a typographical error. They did not give this answer, they did not say that we realized the mistake. This means they repeated the mistake twice, thrice. It is not a mistake, they did it intentionally. This is a matter of debate. You have gotten your point accepted that this word is not there in the books. Mr. Muhammad Hanif Khan: This will not be clear. There will be discussion, this will be discussed. If it came in three books, then they are aware of that mistake. Mr. Chairman: You can ask this question, you can ask this question. Yes, one second. Yes, Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari Sahib! Maulana Sahib! Would you like to say something? * NOMINATION OF PAKISTAN 124th Aug. 1974 Were. Riots or will you say something? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, it is like this that at the time of prayer, many people said that there should be a full discussion on this Quranic distortion. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: So I said that yesterday the Chairman Sahib said that in the whole House, four people are guilty of wanting to prolong this session. The rest of the House wants the session to end. So two things cannot happen together. If you want to end the session today, then I will have to end it by giving one or two examples, because now the Attorney General Sahib also has to ask some more questions, some to me as well. Now you have said that I should only ask questions about the Arabic text, then I will have to refer the remaining questions to you (Attorney General). Mr. Chairman: Okay, please ask, satisfy yourself. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Two things cannot go together. That there should be questions on every issue and the session should also end. Mr. Chairman: No, Maulana! You should be absolutely carefree. Whatever questions you have, in which you think you will achieve your objective, whether there are five, whether there are ten, whether there are fifteen, whether there are twenty, ask them आराम से, there is no restriction. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman: Absolutely. It is that if it does not end today, then it will go to tomorrow. Members: Okay. Mr. Chairman: Okay. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1439 Mr. Mohammad Haneef Khan: We are ready for tomorrow. Mr. Chairman: Okay, one day you talk about something and the other… Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: Can we ask our questions? Mr. Chairman: You can ask your questions through the Attorney General, not yourself, the ones that are left. Mr. Muhammad Haneef Khan: Mr. Chairman! On behalf of the members, I want to bring to your notice that the members are ready to sit if there is something important, on behalf of the members I want to submit that… Mr. Chairman: I will ask the members tonight at ten o'clock. Mr. Muhammad Haneef Khan: If you want to ask something important, we have no objection. Mr. Chairman: Not right now, Khan Sahib! Not right now. I will ask after these two hours are over. That is the proper time. Call them. No sir, they say it's over. There are different statements in the morning, and different in the afternoon. Call them sir, call them. Adjournment time, sir, adjournment. (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Attorney-General through Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari. 1440 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug. 1974 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Mr. Speaker! Just now, regarding the question I asked, I have made a slight clarification that I did not say that the Holy Quran that is being printed by you contains something. I have not seen it. Whether it is there or not, I cannot say. But this book, "Izala Auham," has been in circulation for a long time, and its editions are being repeatedly published. Mirza Sahib had stated that Allah Almighty would not let me persist in error, so such alteration in the verses of the Holy Quran and no warning to him in his lifetime is a matter of great surprise. After him, those who came were also divinely appointed, appointed by Allah Almighty, and they also did not receive any warning, and incidentally, the very word emerged that forms the basis of our disagreement, that is, the biggest disagreement is whether a prophet can come after the Holy Prophet or not. Anyway, this error continues. I have shown that this error is continuing until the 1970 edition. I did not say that the copies of the Holy Quran that are being circulated, which you are teaching to children, I have not even seen them. Now... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Chairman, can I answer this now? Mr. Chairman: Yes, go ahead. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Number one, the reference you are using has each verse indexed, it is a book. Number two, in any of our literature, which you are making a point of, that after omitting these words, this argument should be made, it has not appeared in any literature. So, the reason you are stating that our basis for disagreement is that if this phrase is removed, it will be used as an argument, that argument has never been used in the entire literature, not even in the place where this reference to Izala Auham is being made, that argument has not been used there either. Mr. Chairman: Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1441 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Whatever explanation Mirza Sahib has given is, in any case, his argument. I was coming to that. The whole story stems from taking out the word "Min Qablika" or changing its meaning. Now I come to the brief distortion of meaning. In the initial verses of Surah Al-Baqarah: (Arabic) Here, from this story, now here in the Holy Quran it is very clearly, it is demanded of Muslims to believe in the Prophet and to believe in all the prophets before him. And this kind of verse has come in the Holy Quran in more or less twenty-four, twenty-six places where it is said: On the books that came before you, on the prophets who came before you. Although there was no special need for this because all our commandments are present in the Holy Quran. You encompass all the attributes of all the prophets. But since a system of prophethood has been established by Allah, which ended with you, therefore "Min Qablika" has come everywhere. "Min Ba'dika" has not come anywhere. Although the need was that the commandments that come later should be accepted, if salvation depends on it, then "Min Ba'dika" would have come. But that has not come. Now here, that is, what I have understood, that word has not come anywhere. Therefore, that loophole has been found from another word: (Arabic) Whose Urdu translation I have just seen, otherwise I have English translations by Chaudhry Zafarullah Sahib and Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib. Along with that, I have about ten or twelve other English translations, which are by Muslims, Christians, and Jews as well. Everyone has translated the word "Akhirat" as "Hereafter" or "Hereinafter". NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 But because this translation does not allow for the coming of another prophet, i.e., it creates suspicion that Chaudhry Zafarullah Sahib's translation includes the following translation of the Hereafter: "And our firm faith in that which has been foretold and is yet to come." Translation of "Hereafter": "In that which has been foretold and is yet to come." In a way, it has appeared in Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib: "And they have firm faith in what is yet to come." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Whose translation is this? Mr. Chairman: This second one that you have read? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: The one I recited at the end, at the end, at the end. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This is by Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Sahib, who is with Country. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: He did not do any translation. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: He himself did not do any translation in English. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: He has done it: "And they have firm faith in what is yet to come." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, I mean, he did not do the English translations himself. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1443 I have not done it, someone else has done it. But I am only getting the literal correction done. I will answer the rest. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: Now I will do a little preference. At that time, Arberry's translation was very popular in the English translation. They write: "And have faith in the hereafter." Chaudhry Muhammad Akbar Sahib has a translation: "And firmly believe in the hereafter." Abdullah Yusuf Ali Sahib has a translation: "Have the assurance of the hereinafter." Marmaduke Pickthall has a translation: "And are certain of the hereafter." Bell's translation is: “And of the hereafter... who believe in the unseen and are convinced of the hereafter.” George Sale's translation is.... Mr. Chairman: Yes, the question is complete. The question is that a different translation and a different interpretation has been put by the Jamaat. Yes. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, and as a result, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Sahib... 1444 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 124th Aug., 1974 The explanatory note that has been written is very lengthy, and should I read it as a result? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, it is here. Do read it. Maulana Mohammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Here, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din gives the following footnote: "What is yet to come is derived from 'Al-Akhirah.' He... 'Akhrah, Akhrah' that is, he put it, 'Akhrah.' They say. He put it back, he put it behind, he postponed it. The word 'Al-Akhir,' which is the feminine of 'Al-Akhirah,' that is, the last one or the latter one, is used as an epithet or an adjective opposed to 'Al-Awwal,' that is, the first one with a different vowel point in the central letter. 'Al-Akhar' means the other or another. The object which the adjective in the verse qualifies, is understood; most commentators taking it to be 'Al-Dar,' that is, the full expression being 'Al-Dar Al-Akhirah,' that is, the last abode. The context, however, shows that here the word understood is 'the message or, the revelation which is to come.'" And this is quite long. So, it is from here that this possibility has been extracted that something is still left to come. It is the belief of Muslims that neither will a prophet come now, nor will a heavenly book come, nor will any revelation come, nor will Gabriel come. By translating the word "Akhirah" in this way, this possibility has been created from here that a new prophet will also come, a new book will also come, a new revelation will also continue to come. So, this is, in my point of view and in the general Muslims' point of view, such a definition that changes the entire fundamental belief of Muslims. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So what is the question to me? 1445 Mr. Chairman: The question is simple, very simple, that in the light of the other translations by the different people, who have been mentioned by the witness, a different interpretation has been put by Ch. Mohammad Zafarullah Khan and it has been tried that, for one word, it is proved that Nabies will come even after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). This is the question in a nutshell. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Nabies and divine message. Mr. Chairman: Yes. That is all. Now the witness will reply. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Firstly, I think that many of the English translations that you have narrated from many translators, many of them are Christians... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I have said that there are Muslims as well as Christians. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there are Muslims and Christians too. Secondly, this is the question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: There is also a Jew, his translation is also "Hereafter". Mr. Chairman: One second. Ansari Sahib, please wait a moment. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So the second question is, yes, the question is, secondly, is the translation that has been done against the Arabic dictionary or does the Arabic dictionary also have this meaning? If the Arabic dictionary also has this meaning, then according to the standard of correct interpretation that I mentioned, these meanings alone do not negate it. There should be another reason to negate it. And the third thing is, has the Holy Quran used the words "Akhar" and "Aakharat" only for "Hereafter"? 1446 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug. 1974 have used it or used it in some other sense as well? If in some other sense as well, very clearly, that is the word, and it is clear that it is not "The life hereafter" here, then then we will have to think whether those meanings can apply here as well, if nothing else stops us, and: (Arabic) Here, the meaning of Al-Akhirah in Tafasir is written as Kalima Akhirah and Kalima Ula. So here, one meaning of "Akhirah," which is correct according to the dictionary, the meaning of "Akhir" which is in accordance with the Quranic idiom itself are correct, as I mentioned just now that this word has been spoken about Pharaoh, and the commentaries have, our earlier commentaries have said its meaning is the second word, Kalima al-Akhirah. And this commentary is only different from the first commentary. And I had explained in the correct commentary that the door to disagreement and the door to new meanings in the Holy Quran should be kept open in the light of the verses of the Quran itself, and the predecessors have acknowledged this: (Arabic) This is Tafsir Hidayat al-Bayan, by Imam Abu Muhammad Shirazi, who passed away in 206 Hijri are. It is in Aktrab Asma'. So there are many other references as well, but this one is enough at the moment. Mr. Chairman: Next. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, no, I want to submit something in the same regard. Mr. Chairman: Yes, ask, if there is further explanation on this. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Mirza Sahib! The thing is, if we go by the literal meaning of the word, then out of many such words that are not used in any meaning today, are used in many places. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1447 happen. Now, when we say Hadith in the technical sense, it will be something else; in today's colloquial language, it will be something else. That's not the question. The question is, is the principle you have stated correct in its place? But in these thirteen, fourteen hundred years, has any other commentator, any great Arab scholar, taken these meanings of "Akhirah" here, which people accept? Or is this a completely new thing to our Imams, commentators, and scholars who have passed away? And a new thing that creates such a big divide within the Ummah that two Ummahs are created. It does not become a difference of sects but rather two separate Ummahs are formed by the opening of the door of Prophethood. And with that, when the Prophet comes, the Ummah joins him. So this is the foundation from where the Ummah of Muslims separates and the Ummah of Mirza Sahib separates. So it's such a big fundamental thing. If you can tell us about some people among the ancient commentators in its support, then it can be seen to what extent it can be relied upon. Merely the use of the word "Akhir" in some other meaning... you know much better than I do that in Arabic, there is a single word that is used in fifty different meanings, but it happens according to the context and occasion. According to that... Mr. Chairman: Let this be answered, then you can put the next question. The question is: whether this interpretation has been put previously in 1300 years? If so, by whom? Or this interpretation has been put for the first time? This is your question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the meaning of your statement is that no interpretation of the Holy Quran can be done except by the commentators who have passed away, then we do not hold this belief. Number one. Mr. Chairman: It solves the problem, it solves the problem. Let You can explain, the witness can explain further, 1448 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Secondly, if we are given time, we will present an example from the interpretations of the earlier commentators that supports the meaning we have given. Mr. Chairman: Yes, the witness will be allowed to produce it. Yes, Next question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I would like to submit something briefly regarding this, that in fourteen hundred years, if generally our predecessors, our elders, the commentators, have not made these meanings, and these meanings do not create small differences, what I am submitting, the basic thing is this, and if it were a minor matter, it might not have been so important that someone would pick out a point. Such a difference arises that the people of the Muslim community are divided into two parts. Either these become infidels or those become infidels. A big difference arises. Mr. Chairman: That is argument. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, I am submitting that it is necessary for this that we have a good number of commentators in our tradition on whom the Ummah has relied... Mr. Chairman: That is, that is, Ansari Sahib, a question of argument, because it is admitted that they have put this interpretation. So, to support it, they will produce some authority. Next question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Alright, Sir! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We do have a reference for the support of the new meaning, Al-Fauz Al-Kabir. :also present here. But the thing is that the predecessors have spoken about the properties of the word of Allah in two ways. One is similar to prayer and similar to the sea. I seek forgiveness from Allah for that. But besides the properties narrated, a new door has been opened. Hazrat Haq Jal Shanahu once placed the names of Husna, the great verses, and the blessed prayers in my lap and said that this is our gift for general use. So as far as the new meanings are concerned, we can give thousands of references. And as far as this verse is concerned, there is no mention of proof in this verse. The meaning and interpretation of this verse that you have read does not mention the opening of any door of prophethood in this verse. The rest is Hadi and Inspiration and conversation. You say that it is the unanimous decision of the Ummah that the door of divine conversation is closed. And our belief is different from yours, that the majority of the righteous of the Muslim Ummah This is the belief from beginning to end that as a result of the blessings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), the door of divine conversation will always remain open. And this is the distinction and distinction that the Muslim Ummah has from other important from the nations of other prophets. This is what I have told my faith. Mr. Chairman: Next question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, you have said one thing. As far as these As far as words are concerned, there is probably no disagreement. The disagreement arises where we use the word "revelation". That is, conversation with many elders, with Sufis, is a different matter. The point of contention is with the word "revelation" and the second is now the Islamic Sharia is a term, it has become a technical meaning. So even if you look in the dictionaries in English, then You will find one technical meaning of *Wahi* (revelation) as the speech that Allah Almighty sends down upon his servants. So the conversation is there. Here, this door that is open is that whatever is to come later, namely, *paigham* (message) comes, one believes in it. Now, others, Muslims, have this belief that no such message comes that is obligatory for Muslims to obey by force. If any *ilham* (revelation) comes to any elder, then it is for them, but the Muslim *Ummah* (community) is not bound to necessarily accept it. This is the difference. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if someone gets.... Mr. Chairman: Interruption Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If this *ilham* is revealed that hold the Holy Quran firmly, then according to you, will this not be obligatory for the *Ummah* to act upon? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Not because of what he says. Mr. Chairman: No, I don't want to enter this. The question was that the Ayat was read out, the translation was read out and the answer has come. Next question, yes. This sort of debate will not be allowed, Yes, next. (Pause) Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: There is one thing, actually, sir! It's a matter of time constraint. Mr. Chairman: No, ask, you certainly may. We will regulate the time constraint. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I want to ask you a question for clarification, in which there are countless verses of the Quran about which Mirza Sahib has said that these were revealed to me. I will present a few of them. Meaning, not upon the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, but upon him. ... have been revealed. But some have been interpreted in such a way that it contains the most severe insult to the Holy Prophet (PBUH)... Mr. Chairman: The first question would be ...... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes? Mr. Chairman: .....first question would be: whether it was said by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that certain Ayaat were revealed on him? This would be the first question. Then we will go into the second. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Just now, just now. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Just now, I will give the... Mr. Chairman: Yes, yes. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: ...translation of one verse. Sir! The verse is this: (Arabic) Now, I will recite Bashiruddin Sahib's translation of it... Mr. Chairman: This is your page? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: It is page 54-55 of his translation. Mr. Chairman: Surah? (Pause) Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Al-Imran. Mr. Chairman: Al-Imran Verse 54? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: 82, 83, 84 - Mr. Chairman: On page 54 or from 51 to 67? With you? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, their translation, you have their English translation? Mr. Chairman: Yes, I have the same. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I am reading from the Urdu translation. Mr. Chairman: Okay, fine. Eighty? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Eighty-two? Mr. Chairman: Eighty-two. Maulana Mohammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Eighty-two, eighty...... Mr. Chairman: "And remember the time when Allah took......" That's it, isn't it? Yes, please read. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Should I read the verse again? Mr. Chairman: Yes, it's fine, it has been read, ask him. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Should I read the translation? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1453 And remember the time when Allah took a firm covenant from the People of the Book, like that taken from all the prophets, that whatever I give you of the Book and wisdom, and thereafter there comes to you a messenger fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him. And He said, "Do you agree and accept My responsibility in this matter?" And they said, "Yes, we agree." He said, "Bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses." And whoever turns away after this covenant, those are the transgressors. Now, in this translation, I will briefly submit what I have been able to understand: It has been translated as: (Arabic) "There comes to you a messenger fulfilling that which is with you." In my opinion, this translation is also found elsewhere, that he may be one who confirms it. Meaning, that nothing is left incomplete that he is completing it, rather, it is that he is confirming it. In any case, here: This is what has been translated as: (Arabic) This translation has been written in "Al Fazl" under the title of "Covenant in Verse," and it is almost correct: God took a covenant from all the prophets that when I give you the Book and wisdom, then there shall come to you a confirming prophet, you shall believe, help him. He said, "Do you solemnly agree?" They said, "Our community agrees." God Almighty said, "Be witnesses and I too will continue to bear witness; whoever turns away after this covenant will become a transgressor and bear humiliation." 1454 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 124th Aug., 1974 Now the next verse is: You took the covenant The same covenant was taken by the Truth From Noah and all the prophets From Mustafa, Kalim, and the Messiah This firm promise was taken from everyone Congratulations, the promised one of the Ummah has arrived The purpose of the covenant of the nation has arrived Now let the people of Islam fulfill it completely Today, let everyone become a grateful servant Al-Fadl, Volume Eleven, Number 67, dated February 26, 1924 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1924? Maulana Mohammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, twenty-four. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, 1924. Maulana Mohammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Now... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Whose poem is this? Maulana Mohammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: The name of the poet is not written in this poem. So now there are two things that come from this. First, was this covenant also taken from the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, that when a prophet comes after you, you will support him, help him, follow him? And if you do not, then you will become superior? God forbid. I think this is such a great insult that no Muslim can even imagine it. First of all, to interpret this verse in this way... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1455 To present that a covenant was taken from all the prophets, and they were such that included messengers, including the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And its embodiment, the coming prophet, is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib. So in this, so many things have been done wrong and insultingly. This is a very painful situation. This thing was also published in "Al-Fadl" of September 21, 1915: "Allah Almighty took a covenant from all the prophets that whenever I give you the Book and wisdom, then a messenger will come to you, confirming all that you have of the Book and wisdom, that is, that messenger is the Promised Messiah who confirms the Quran and Hadith, and he is not the possessor of a new Sharia. O prophets! You must all believe in him. And in every way, understand to help him." Now here, it is as if the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has been made subordinate to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, that is, I do not know by what logic this thing has been created that when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib comes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The meanings you are telling are disrespectful. There is no meaning in it. And I am very sad to hear your new meanings. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Look: This is before the verse: "The covenant you took from all the prophets The same covenant was taken by the Truth from Mustafa Whoever turns away after this covenant Will be a transgressor and will bear disgrace." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To make "whoever turns away" the name of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), God forbid. KAROLI UF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 to me. I was very hurt by your statement. Maulana Mohammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: But this poem is not mine, Mr. Mirza! Mr. Chairman: There are two questions they have been coupled. One is: a different interpretation of this surat, 82-83, by the use of word "testifying" or "fulfilling". According to the generally accepted traditions and principles of the Muslims, it shall be "testified"; but according to the interpretation put, "it shall be fulfilled by another person who will come later on". This is your question, and the poem is secondary. Maulana Mohammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: And that, is not included in it. Sir Prophet Muhammad Mr. Chairman: Yes. Then a man will come who will fulfil that. Yes, the witness may reply. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if it is in our literature that the messenger whose help and assistance, which is mentioned here, is the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him? Maulana Mohammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Then, Sir, was this promise taken from him that you would help yourself? I mean, this is it, right?: "The same promise was taken by God from Mustafa." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am not saying that. Listen to me. I am sorry, I could not make myself clear. Mr. Chairman: First, let's talk about the Holy Quran, then we will talk about the poem, whether it relates to that or not, that is second question - Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The founder of the Ahmadiyya movement has said that the actual meaning of this messenger is, let's say, the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1457 Mr. Chairman: Now there is a poem, in which, I mean, here it is that a non-Ahmadi will have doubts, but the Ahmadis will not take any other meaning from it other than that the founder of the movement, as he has stated in many places, is the humblest of followers in relation to the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Every Ahmadi, young and old, male and female, believes this. No one can dare to (disbelieve). I have been worried since hearing this, what meaning have you given here. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I have not given any meaning. Look, if the help of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was intended, then what was the question of taking a pledge from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) himself? Let me read it to you again: "Was the covenant that was taken from all the prophets, The same covenant did the Truth take from Mustafa?" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regardless of this detail, because its answer is very detailed, I will bring ten or fifteen books and tell (you). Who said that a person is ordered not to help himself? It is not mentioned anywhere in the Holy Quran. In the Holy Quran, it is (written) to help yourself, and it is also in the Hadiths to help yourself, so this point that you have raised is not correct. Mr. Chairman: Next question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And if you want, we can present all the writings of the Promised Messiah. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Your answer has come, meaning this covenant was taken from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that you should continue to help yourself. Mr. Chairman: That's it, it's done. 1438 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A covenant was taken from the messengers that they should advise their followers that a great prophet, Hazrat Khatam-ul-Anbiya Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is about to appear, and you should help him when he appears. In this regard, I will send you my collection of sermons regarding the construction of the Kaaba, which you can read, that Hazrat Ibrahim (peace be upon him) prepared his followers for centuries to accept Hazrat Nabi Akram (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). So the opposite meaning that we take from what we constantly tell our elders and youngsters is not correct in my opinion. Mr. Chairman: Next question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Now that is a very long series. I am quoting from Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, and it is also in other books, that the revelation that was revealed to Mirza Sahib was: (Arabic) Translation: "A matter will descend from the heavens which will make you happy." After that it says: (Arabic) Now this is the verse that everyone knows was revealed to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) at the time of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah. I will keep giving a few examples like this here. (Arabic) Here also it is not "bi-idhnihi": Translation: And a shining lamp and from God. Then after that, regarding the honor of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the state of Miraj, it says: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1459 (Arabic) Translation: He drew near to God. Then he inclined towards creation and became between God and creation as between two nations. I didn't understand this "inclined towards creation," but this is a verse that Mirza Sahib said was revealed to him about himself. Next is a very famous verse about Miraj Sharif: It's only up to here: (Arabic) (Arabic) Glory to Him Who did take His servant for a Journey by night.) Next comes the verse about Hazrat Adam: (Arabic) No, this is for Hazrat Ibrahim (peace be upon him): (Arabic) "I will make you an Imam for the nations." Now, they said that it was revealed for them. Anyway, I am leaving this "Haqiqat-ul-Wahi" of his in the middle of everything, but where.... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: I will request Saiyid Abbas Hussain to talk privately to Ansari Sahib when he has finished the question. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug., 1974 1460 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: I am leaving out the preceding and following phrases that are not verses of the Quran, otherwise like: This, in my opinion, is not a verse of the Quran. Further is: (Arabic) (Arabic) Say to them, if you love God, follow me, so that God may also love you.) This is God Almighty's instruction to the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him. After this, a very famous verse that not only Muslims but also non-Muslims know, that God Almighty said for the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him: (Arabic) Now, Mirza Sahib claims that this verse was also revealed for him. (Arabic) Further, this is also a verse of the Quran. These are the initial verses of Surah Al-Fath: (Arabic) (Indeed, We have granted you a clear conquest. That God may forgive you your sins of the past and the future.) (Arabic) He has added this here on his own. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1401 (Arabic) This is what Hazrat Yusuf said to his brothers when he achieved success. Now after this, Allah Almighty revealed Surah Kauthar to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him: This is also a revelation in Urdu from above: (Arabic) Many greetings be upon you." (Arabic) This is probably not a verse of the Quran, but the one after it is a verse of the Quran: (Arabic) Now after that there is another verse from the Quran: Then the Urdu revelation started: And signs will be revealed." (Arabic) Then a verse of the Quran comes: (Arabic) Then this is a verse from the Quran: (Arabic) Then this is a verse from the Quran: (Arabic) Now after that it is again: (Arabic) 1462 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug. 1974 These are not verses from the Quran. (Arabic) Etc., etc., similarly. Anyway, this is an endless series. I have given as an example... Mr. Chairman: Yes, an example, that is. But what is the question? What is the question? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: The question is that this is a very blatant distortion of the Holy Quran, that in the verses in which Allah Almighty has addressed Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, from them, he has taken this address towards himself, that this address is to me, that We have given you Kauthar. Then the last verse is also somewhere that: (Arabic) Your enemy is the one who will be destroyed, ruined.) That it has come towards me. In this way, regarding the dignity of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, it is said that: (Arabic) And We have raised your mention high.) This too, I mean, I have not found it in this place, but Mirza Sahib has said that this has descended for me. And there are countless verses of this kind: (Arabic) Now here Allah Almighty says to you, swearing by the Holy Quran, you are among the messengers. So, I think that so many examples are enough for this matter. Mr. Chairman: Yes. So, the question is....... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI UKUUY DELEGATION 1443 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, one more question. There is a saying of Hazrat Isa (Jesus) which is in the Holy Quran: (Arabic) I give glad tidings of a messenger who will come after me and his name will be Ahmad. Everyone unanimously has understood that it refers to the esteemed person of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. But, Mirza Sahib says that it is for him. Mr. Chairman: Is it finished? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I think my examples are enough. Mr. Chairman: The question is that where the Holy Prophet has been addressed, Mirza Sahib has taken it to himself. This is the question in short. Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The way I understand it, the question is that the verses of the Holy Quran are not revealed to anyone in the Ummah Muhammadiya (followers of Muhammad). Have I understood correctly? Mr. Chairman: No, his question is that regarding the Holy Prophet, he was specifically addressed or told, that Mirza Sahib says about himself that I have been addressed. That is the question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question here is that the verses in the Holy Quran that came for the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, the founder of the Ahmadiyya سلسلہ (movement) said that these verses are for me. Mr. Chairman: "Came for me." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And they did not come for Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. 1464 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 124th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: No, no, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I am permitted? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Two meanings can be derived from this. One is that Mirza Sahib said it to them, then it was repeated for them, the same applies to him. Mr. Chairman: Yes, this can be also, this can be interpreted also. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This came upon them once, for them. Then it was repeated. These are also prophets, I am repeating this for them. Allah Almighty said, "This was said about me." Then this Maulana Sahib... Maulana Mohammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: In some editions. With some additions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then in the middle, by making an alteration and adding in the middle. Mr. Chairman: No, absolutely, this definitely will not happen. There are many that are about definite occasions. For example, Fatah Mubeen which came at the time of Hudaybiyah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, they say it came there, but Mirza Sahib is saying, "This revelation came to me on this occasion." Mr. Chairman: Okay. Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In this, these things, then this also, the revelation of the Quran also came in between. Mr. Chairman: Yes, the witness may reply. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1465 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As far as the question of Quranic verses being revealed to the righteous of the Ummah as revelation is concerned, our literature of the Muslim Ummah is full of it. I will give a few examples. In Futuh-ul-Ghaib, Hazrat Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani was inspired many times with the verse that was revealed for the high status of Hazrat Musa: (Arabic) Futuh-ul-Ghaib Article Six Published.... Hindu name, I can't read it... Similarly, the verse related to the high status of Hazrat Yusuf (peace be upon him) was also inspired: This is also in "Futuh-ul-Ghaib". (Arabic) It is in the revelations of Hazrat Maulvi Abdullah Ghaznavi Amritsari. Emphasis of the verse from the unseen: (Arabic) This content, which is about the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), was revealed to me. (Inspiration) Mr. Chairman: So, the answer is that Ilham (revelation). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My point is: you accept that Mirza sahib has said this? Then after that the explanation....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I accept that according to the general principle of the Muslim Ummah, verses of the Holy Quran can be revealed to the saints of the Ummah. And the verses that they have recited, if they have been recited correctly, then they were revealed to Hazrat Mirza Sahib. Mr. Chairman: Okay. The question is answered. The next question. ITUU NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Now I say yes to this. Mr. Chairman: Yes, now the witness can explain. Yes, yes, you can answer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That same night, Maulvi Abdullah Sahib Ghaznavi Amritsari… that night this revelation happened: (Arabic) The second time this revelation happened: (Arabic) The third time this revelation happened: (Arabic) In those days this revelation happened: (Arabic) And then this happened to Maulvi Abdullah Ghaznavi Sahib: (Arabic) This verse is about the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Abdullah Ghaznavi Sahib says that this revelation is happening to me. In those same days, this revelation happened to him: (Arabic) Revelation happened... I regret that the writer has made a verbal mistake somewhere. This is handwritten, collected together: (Arabic) 1467 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Which is about the Holy Quran, not that the Holy Quran is being revealed to you, do this at that time. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is commanded to do this. And he was inspired to do this. This inspiration happened in Delhi: (Arabic) Then he was inspired three times: (Arabic) This is the command regarding Hajj, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was inspired. And Abdullah Ghaznavi was also inspired. And he was inspired: (Arabic) Addressing the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), it was said that Allah Almighty will bestow so much upon you that you will be pleased with it. That idea of saturation point, these words are expressed in Arabic. He was inspired: And is this "Al-Fadl", sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is the difference between inspiration and revelation? Did Mirza Sahib receive inspiration or revelation? That's one thing. Secondly, what you are saying about Maulvi Abdullah Ghaznavi, apart from the verses of the Quran, did he receive any other thing from his own side? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, there is from his own side as well, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please explain that as well. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I will mention this incidentally. Once one of our scholars was temporarily free 1468 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 124th Aug., 1974 They were. Then I told them to study the books of the righteous predecessors and collect their revelation, revelation: from the word "revelation," and inspiration, unveiling, and visions. So they collected four large-sized copies and gave them to me. And maybe that's just one out of a thousand in our literature. So to say that the righteous predecessors did not believe in the descent of revelation, nor in inspiration, nor in unveiling, nor in visions, well, our history disproves that. But for example, now, even to the extent that in a Pakistan newspaper last year, there was this major national, well, not a high-level fatwa, but it became a fatwa that a Muslim cannot have a bad dream. So these kinds of things are harmful to Islam, not beneficial to it. Anyway, I'll leave it at that now. This "Ahmad" thing, this "Ahmad" matter, you know. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said, did Mirza Sahib receive revelation or inspiration? This mention here is parallel to that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Should I answer, or is there a book of Muslim Hadith Sharif and those of the Holy Prophet: (Arabic) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, they won't answer Mirza Sahib, you know. I'm asking you. What does Mirza Sahib say, that he received revelation or inspiration? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What Muslim says, that's what Mirza Sahib says. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Oohiy Allah Ta'ala" (Allah Almighty revealed) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1469 (Arabic) Here it is that Allah Almighty will reveal to Jesus, when he comes, that in this era, at the time of his descent, two powers of the world will become so strong that others will not be able to fight them with material means. Therefore, tell the people of my ummah that instead of fighting them, they should turn to Allah and engage in prayers, and Allah will surely destroy them according to the prophecies, without the ummah having to engage in material warfare and fighting with them. And as it is in the conditions of Jihad, there should be at least half the strength, then Jihad is valid, otherwise Jihad is not valid at all. Now, in this hadith, which is in Muslim, Allah Almighty has the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) used the word "revelation" for the coming Messiah. Actually, the only difference is in this, that is, the belief that revelation can come or not, when we understand that revelation can come, then in our view, revelation was revealed to the saints of the ummah who came before. The Holy Quran says that revelation was revealed to the honey bee. The Holy Quran says that revelation was also revealed to the disciples of Jesus. Similarly, these are the idioms of the Quran. And current research says that when a honey bee lays an egg, it is told by Allah Almighty whether it is male or female, and it keeps it in different places in its hive. So, an idea has been created. Here, the discussion is not whether that idea is correct or not, because that is a long discussion whether revelation can come or not. Some people say, have been saying from the beginning until now, even among the pious predecessors, and today we are among them included that revelation can come. Other people say that revelation cannot come. Those who say that revelation cannot come, one of them says that revelation cannot come, inspiration can come. There is another group that says that neither revelation can come, nor inspiration can come, rather an idiom related to revelation is not in my mind coming, that is, leaving the word "revelation inspiration" and. This has come, is revolving in the mind. Anyway, my CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1469 (Arabic) It is here that Allah Almighty will reveal to Hazrat Isa, when he comes, that in this era, at the time of his descent, two powers of the world will become so strong that others will fight them will not be able to with material means. Therefore, tell the people of my Ummah to fight them Instead of doing so, turn to Allah and engage in prayers, and Allah, according to the prophecies, He will surely destroy them, without the Ummah having to fight a material war and battle with them. And as it is in the conditions of Jihad, there should be at least half the strength, then Jihad becomes obligatory, otherwise Jihad does not become obligatory. Now in this hadith which is in Muslim, Allah Almighty has for the coming Messiah, The Holy Prophet (PBUH) has used the word "revelation" for the coming Messiah. Actually The only difference in this is, that is, this belief that revelation can come or not, when we understand that revelation can can come, then in our opinion, revelation descended upon the saints of the Ummah who came before. The Holy Quran says that revelation descended upon the honeybee. The Holy Quran says that revelation also descended upon the disciples of Hazrat Isa. descends. Similarly, these are the idioms of the Quran. And the current research says that the honeybee every When it lays an egg, it is told by Allah that there is a male or a female inside it, and keeps in different places in its hive. So an idea came into being. It is not a debate here whether that idea is correct, because it is a long debate whether revelation can come or not. Some people say, They have been saying from the beginning till now, even from the righteous predecessors, and today we are among them included that revelation can come. Other people say that revelation cannot come. Those who say that revelation cannot can come, one of them says that Dji cannot come, inspiration can come. There is another group who says that Wali cannot come, inspiration cannot come, but an idiom about revelation is not in my mind coming i.e. "Revelation": Leaving the word "Inspiration" and more. It came, is wandering in the mind. Anyway my 1470 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug, 1974 It is not in (my) mind. Among these, there is another thing, "Ilqa, Ilqa too. And in addition to Ilqa. So now it has come down this way in the Ummah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's why I only asked this, you just clarify, can revelation come to anyone even after Mirza Sahib? What is your opinion on this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, it can come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Inspiration and revelation? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Be it inspiration or revelation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Revelation can also come? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: For inspiration and revelation, the Sharia... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, revelation can come even after that? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The door of revelation has never been closed, nor can it be. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's fine, sir. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari! Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It hasn't happened before either. Regarding Ahmad, what he has said, its answer remains. Mr. Chairman: Yes, please state. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He stated that "Ahmad" was used for himself, whereas the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement has interpreted Ahmad only for the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and he himself has also said it, meaning figuratively and reflectively. Just like yesterday after two verses, a third was read, so the question became clear. Now here it is "Al-Fadl, 10th August" and its reference is. "Lajm al-Huda," a book by the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement. CROSS-EXAMINATION UP THE QADIANI GREAT DILEMMA 14/1 Those people, meaning messengers, prophets, Abdals, and saints, attained some of their knowledge, sciences, and blessings through intermediaries and benefactors. But our Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, attained whatever he did directly from Him, and whatever he received came from that very fountain of grace and bestowal. Thus, the hearts of others could not surge with such fervor for the praise of God as did the heart of our Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, because God Himself was the manager of all his affairs. It is for this reason that no prophet or messenger before the prophets and messengers was named Ahmad because none of them praised and glorified God as he, peace and blessings be upon him, did. And their blessings were not independent of human agency, whereas his blessings were. And all the sciences were not imparted to them (the former ones) without intermediaries as they were to him, peace and blessings be upon him, and God did not manage all their affairs directly, nor were they aided in all matters without intermediaries. Therefore, no one is a Mahdi in the complete sense except the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and no one is an Ahmad in the complete sense except him. And this is the secret that only the hearts of Abdals understand, and no one else can understand." Okay, then you say regarding your revelations, regarding the prophets, the Quranic verses that are currently under discussion, on page 488-489 of "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya" it says: The essence of these words is the divine favors and blessings that, through the blessing of following the best of messengers, encompass every perfect believer. And in reality, the true subject of all those verses is the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and others are secondary. And it should be remembered everywhere that every praise and glorification that is mentioned in the revelations of a believer is... (Didn't you say "Rahmat-ul-lil-Alameen," you said that...) And he said, "You are explaining it (and this point should be kept in mind everywhere) that every praise and commendation that is made in the glory of a believer is in reality the praise of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and that believer, according to his obedience, his following, his emulation, receives a portion of that praise, and that too purely by the grace and kindness of Allah, not by any merit or virtue of his own." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this writing from before the claim of prophethood? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is for always. This is, how many times, no, I have read a reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am only asking about here. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari! Next question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, is it? Mr. Chairman: Is there still more left? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am simply asking if this is from before the claim of prophethood? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, sir. This is after the claim. That is before the claim, and the other one is after the claim. Now, what I am about to read: "It has been revealed to me (after mentioning about revelation, etc.) that all this has been granted to me by the blessing of following the Seal of the Prophets, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him." It is after the claim. And in all the books, meaning we do not have the references at the moment, you will find such statements until the last book. Mr. Chairman: Next question. And he said, you are explaining it,) and this thing should be kept in mind everywhere that every praise that is sung in the glory of a believer is in reality the praise of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and that believer, according to his obedience, his following, his adherence, receives a share from this praise, and that too purely through Allah Almighty's grace and favor, not through any merit or virtue of his own." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this writing from before the claim of prophethood? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is for always. This, however many times... I read a reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm just asking here. Mr. Chairman Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari! Next question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, is it? Mr. Chairman: Is there still more left? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was just simply asking whether this is from before the claim of prophethood, this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. This is from after the claim. That is from before the claim, and the other is from after the claim. Now what I am about to read: "It was revealed to me. (After mentioning about revelation etc.) that all this, this blessing, I have received through following the Holy Prophet, the Seal of the Prophets, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him." This is from after the claim. And in all the books, meaning we don't have references at the moment, till the last book, you will find such statements. Mr. Chairman: Next question. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1473 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: The discussion has now started on the difference between 'Wahi' and 'Ilham'. And the same story of the thirst for time is coming up again. Mr. Chairman: Please continue with your subject. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: The point here is that in the terminology of Sharia and in the art of terminology, specific meanings of 'Wahi' have been defined. A word has appeared in the Holy Quran, and as you said, it has been used for the honey bee, for Satan, and for others as well. But now, in terminology, its meanings have been defined. And if you allow, I can quote from a few dictionaries, English and Urdu, for example, "Muhit al-Hiyal" (Arabic). Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Excuse me, please mention the year of writing of the book you are referring to, as you just asked, it clarifies things. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: The year of writing is, well, okay. This "Kashaf Istilahat al-Funun," page 1523, Volume II... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: From what era is it? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I am telling you, it was printed in Calcutta in 1862. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: It is on page 1523. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I just asked that because dates also tell us something. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Now, this "Farhang-e-Asifiya," which is probably the most reliable dictionary of Urdu, and Mirza Sahib's books are also in Urdu... 1474 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Urdu dictionary? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: "Farhang-e-Asifia." Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Is it telling the meaning of the word "Wahi" in Urdu? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: No, I told you about the Arabic, you are telling about the Urdu. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: We don't need Urdu. Many words are used in one meaning in Arabic and in another meaning in Urdu. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: Alright. Then you see both meanings. In Urdu, the word "Wahi" is specifically for that speech or command which God sends down to His prophets. Therefore, the following meaning of the word "Wahi" is written in Farhang-e-Asifia: "God's command that descends upon the prophets." Now there are dictionaries of slightly lower standard than this. Should I quote from that? Mirza Nasir Ahmed: No, no, it is better not to quote that either. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: No, this is after all Urdu... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Okay, alright. The quote is done. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: There is no better or more reliable dictionary than this so far. Mr. Chairman: Maulana! First ask the question about the subject. Come back to your own subject. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: Very well. One difference is that in our view, inspiration (Ilham) happens to elders, to the saints of Allah, but the basic thing is whether someone who receives inspiration is obligatory to obey or not? The real difference is here, that someone says that this inspiration has happened to me, revelation has come to me, whatever he says. Now the series of revelation is continuing. Look! You are saying that even now CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1475 The latest revelation to Khawaja Muhammad Ismail Masih Maud, two revelations are continuously coming to him. His group also exists here as Jamaat-e-Sabiqoon in Mandi Bahauddin, District Gujrat. Revelation has come to him that: "Congratulations to you." Mr. Chairman: This question is not allowed. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No sir, I am not questioning, I am saying that claims keep happening with this meaning. The main thing is, if someone says that "revelation comes to me and whoever does not believe it becomes an infidel, goes out of the circle of Islam, goes to hell," then it becomes a thing, an importance. The series of revelations that Mirza Sahib has, about that I.... Mr. Chairman: Sir, first end the distortion of the Quran. Then after that... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No sir, look, it will happen with that. It won't work like this. Look, it is clear from these references that Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) considers his revelations as the word of God: "And its status, with respect to being the word of God, is just like that of the Holy Quran and the Torah and the Gospel. Now if someone denies them, then he goes out of the circle of Islam." If it has the same status, I will give the reference. Akhbar Al Fazl Qadian Volume 2 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is being repeated. I have presented our different meanings to the Attorney General. 1476 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I don't think it was quoted. Now I will present another thing. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Sahib, this question will be channelized through Attorney-General. (Interruption) This question will be channelized through Attorney-General. You can ask the question of distortion of Quran. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, no, then that matter does not remain complete, because then this thing comes that the Holy Quran is something separate from this also. We understand that the Quran is this much. Mr. Chairman: Then put a definite question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay, look, let me read out the reference. Mr. Chairman: Put a definite question. You will save your time and the time of the House. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I will ask this definite question that, Did Mirza Bashir-ud-Din... Mr. Chairman: You are bringing Mandi Bahauddin in the middle! Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, no. Okay, I just said that the series of revelation continues, it keeps happening every day, so we don't care about it. Regarding this statement of Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Sahib, I want to know the position: The meaning of a Shari'ah prophet is that he first brings words. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)... He is a law-bearing prophet, which means that he brought the Quran first. And Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) is a non-law-bearing prophet, and this means that he did not bring the Quran first. Otherwise, you also brought the Quran. If you did not bring it, then why did God say that "he was raised with the Quran"? Now, it is further: Then it should be remembered that when a prophet comes, the knowledge of the previous prophet also comes through him, meaning that this is the reason why there is no Quran now except the Quran that Hazrat Masih Maud presented. And there is no hadith except the hadith that is seen in the light of Hazrat Masih Maud. And there is no prophet except the one who appears in the light of Hazrat Masih Maud. Similarly, the existence of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) will be seen through the medium that it is seen in the light of Hazrat Masih Maud. If someone wants to see something separate from him, he will not see anything. In such a case, if someone looks at the Quran, it will not be the Quran of "guides whom He wills" for him, meaning that it will not be the one that guides, but it will be the Quran of "leads astray whom He wills," meaning that it will be the one that leads him astray. Now, similarly onwards, if... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Where is this reference from? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This is Mian Mahmood Sahib, the Khalifa of Qadian's Friday sermon published in the newspaper Al-Fazl Qadian, Volume 12, Number 4, dated... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But the newspaper "Al-Fazl" is not in your hand, it is from a book? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, without checking, even though we have experience with it. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Alright, meaning you should look at it. If it's not there, then it's not. But... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the name of the book you are taking this from? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, in any case, I will... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, what's the harm in telling me? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: "Al-Mufaddal," no, no, there's no harm. This is Burney Sahib's book. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, Burney Sahib's book. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Now, the difficulty here is that some revelation descends, that is the Quran, and then there is also the recitation of the same Quran. Mr. Chairman: Please put a definite question on this. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: So, this is what I am saying, is this Quran that we have complete in your opinion? Is it enough to believe in it, to follow it, or is there any other Quranic divine message besides it? Mr. Chairman: The question is simple... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This Holy Quran that I am holding in my hand, making it a witness, I declare that there is no book for us except this Quran. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay. So, what I have just recited, is that not the correct stance? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Regarding what you have recited, I cannot even say that Burney Sahib... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1479 whether he has copied it correctly or not? Do you acknowledge (it)? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Meaning, even if (he) has copied it correctly, you do not acknowledge it as the correct stance? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If it is me, I do not acknowledge (it) until I see (it). Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Alright. Mr. Chairman: Next question. The answer has come. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: In this too, Honorable, some Arabic phrases have come, although there is no verse from the Quran in it. Because you have said it, I will do it. Firstly, according to you, what is the definition of the Companions (of the Prophet), may Allah be pleased with them? I will give you a few things, you can tell (me) all at once. Mothers of the Believers... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, take (them) separately. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Very well. What is the definition of the Companions? According to Muslims, the definition is that those people who, in the state of belief... Mr. Chairman: You put a question, let him answer. You put the interpretation yourself. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, no, I was saying that according to the Muslims... Mr. Chairman: No, alright, what the Muslims (believe) is Muslim's, that is known to everybody. You want the interpretation of the witness on that point. Why are you telling the interpretation of other people on that? Yes, the witness may reply. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, the question is, what is the definition of the Companions? 1480 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: What is your view? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is our definition of the Companions? The definition of the Companions is that they are the fortunate people who attained the love of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in their lifetime and benefited from his grace. Mr. Chairman: Next. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, don't you consider the companions of Mirza Sahib, those who saw Mirza Sahib, to be Companions? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We call them: (Arabic) And it means, he who met, came in between the imagination, in the light of this verse of the Holy Quran, we say that he also met the Companions in a way. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Look, it is in Khutba Ilhamia, please see: (Arabic) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Met the Companions... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Whoever enters my community, it is as if he has entered the community of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1481 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION What is the translation of , approximately the Quranic verse? (Arabic) Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I don't know that, but this that.... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am reading the verse: Isn't this approximately the translation? (Arabic) Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: In any case, I do not understand this as a translation. You are saying. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we understand. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Alright, according to us, the Companions, may Allah be pleased with them, are only those who saw Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, may God bless him and grant him peace, in a state of faith. After that, there are no more Companions. Regarding the definition you have given, I have asked within it whether you call the people who saw Mr. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who stayed with him, Companions or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We call them Companions in the sense that the Holy Quran has stated: (Arabic) Mr. Chairman: Next question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Who do you call "Mother of the Believers"? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In our view, "Mother of the Believers" refers to the servant of the pure wives and the mother of the believers in the Promised Messiah. Mr. Chairman: Next question. 1482 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug., 1974 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Is Masjid-e-Aqsa "where the Holy Prophet was taken for Miraj" the name of a mosque in Qadian? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There are many mosques named Masjid-e-Aqsa, ten or fifteen. Tipu's... Tipu Sultan was a great and brave general of ours. The name of his mosque is also Masjid-e-Aqsa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there one in Qadian as well? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is also one in Qadian. There is one in Qadian as well. And there are many others as well. Mr. Chairman: Next question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, Mr. Chairman, I have submitted, the mosque in which the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was taken for Miraj, is it in Qadian or not? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is where you understand it to be. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, it is not in Qadian? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. Mr. Chairman: Next question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, then should I show it? Mr. Chairman: No, Sir, he is saying... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, Sir, tell us the reference. Mr. Chairman: If there is one. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I will tell you now. Mr. Chairman: Okay. 1483 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: What do you mean by Panj Tan? Who are the people included in Panj Tan? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Panj Tan" means five bodies, five individuals. So, from different perspectives, according to its literal meaning, there can be Panj Tan in different families. But we... the Muslim Ummah has frequently used Panj Tan in a specific sense, and we also use it in that sense. And the Ahmadiyya community has also used it in another sense. And there is no Sharia prohibition against using a Persian idiom in a new idiom, despite its old usage. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I am sending you this pedigree which has a Quranic verse as its title: (Arabic) Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This title has been chosen to obtain blessings. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: And the poem is: They have mourning in our house, and a wedding Glory to Him who is the Most Excellent and Guide Then below it is: "Spring has arrived in this autumn season, Then there is another poem: Flowers have begun to bloom in my garden." These five who are from the lineage of Syeda Are the Panj Tan upon whom (everything) is built." 1484 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug., 1974 If you wish, I can provide it to you now. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I remember the verses. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Very good. Mirza Nasir Ahmad and: "These are the twists of the body upon which it is built" Hazrat Masih Maud, may I answer? Or if your question is not finished, then I apologize. In this, it is stated that Allah Almighty had told you through His revelation that: (Arabic) That your lineage will be cut off from your forefathers, and now this lineage will proceed from you. So in this verse, you stated that my lineage, the lineage of my family, will henceforth proceed from these five individuals. And there is no other meaning to it. Mr. Chairman: Next. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: These ninety-nine beautiful names of Allah Almighty are very well known. Many people have collected ninety-nine names of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, from hadiths and traditions. Does Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also have ninety-nine names? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are neither in my knowledge, nor have I ever been interested in such a thing. You wanted to ask about Masjid Aqsa, to ask for a reference. Mr. Chairman: Next. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes. There is a reference, from Khutba Ilhamia: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 140J Mirza Nasir Ahmad The Masjid-e-Aqsa refers to the Promised Messiah's mosque located in Qadian, regarding which God's word in Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya is: "يجعل فيه" (Arabic) Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: "يجعل فيه" (Arabic) And this word "Mubarak" (blessed), which is a defective verb and a doer, is in accordance with the verse of the Holy Quran "بار کنا حولہ" (We blessed its surroundings). So there is no doubt that Qadian is mentioned in the Holy Quran, as Allah Almighty stated: (Arabic) One meaning of this verse is the one that is famous among the scholars, which is: "This is a description of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)'s physical ascension. But there is no doubt that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) also had a spiritual ascension, the purpose of which was to demonstrate the perfection of his visionary power, and also to prove that the blessings of this era are, in reality, due to his blessings, which have been created by his attention and effort. For this reason, the "Munataha" (furthest boundary) is, in a way, a reflection of him. And that ascension, that is, the reaching of visionary insight to the ends of the world, which is expressed by the time of the Messiah. And in this ascension, in which the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) traveled from Masjid al-Haram to Masjid al-Aqsa, that Masjid al-Aqsa is the same one that is located in Qadian on the eastern side, which God's word has named as blessed." 1480 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug., 1974 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is correct. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This is Khutba Ilhamia 22... Mr. Chairman: Next question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The thing is, am I allowed to answer? Mr. Chairman: Yes, absolutely, explain it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In this, in the reference you read, two things are very prominent. One is that Masjid Aqsa, earlier in our Islamic literature, refers to the mosque that the Jews had ruined etc. May Allah curse them. We have accepted that, meaning Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) did, and we have also accepted it. The founder of the Ahmadiyya series said that in this verse: (Arabic) That that ascension has another difference. Now that we have gone into ascension, I will have to briefly explain it. There is Isra in the Ummah and there is ascension. And this verse that is "Subhan Allazi Asra," a part of this acknowledged miracle is "Isra," and in addition to that, it acknowledges an ascension. Besides that, meaning this great manifestation of Allah Almighty was revealed twice to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and these organized revelations occurred. Its first instance, Masjid Aqsa, that mosque. According to us, there is a spiritual ascension. That vision, your vision fell upon the final era of your Ummah. One is ascension in this sense, now I will take it. One is spatial ascension, one is temporal ascension, and the first instance of the Holy Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) revelation is that mosque which is the spatial ascension, on which, which we all say, the entire Ummah agrees on, we have no disagreement on it, it is our common heritage. And one is temporal ascension, CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1487 That is, the gaze of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, extends to the very end, to the Day of Judgment, and it has such glory, there is a very long detail in it, I will not go into that. In any case, we believe that in this spiritual eloquence of vision, the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, was also given knowledge of this era. So this is the era in which we found the founder of the order in the existence of the Mahdi. And we are his community. So our saying that in the temporal ascension, as a result of the maturity of vision, the eye of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, saw the era of his Mahdi, so his mosque, regardless of the fact that those who disagree with us will say that the founder of the order is not someone else, but his mosque, in the temporal ascension of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, will also be called Masjid al-Aqsa. Anyway, I have told you my belief. Mr. Chairman: Next question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: These are the revelations of Mirza Sahib. But we do not have that book. Do you admit it? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is the name of the book? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: "Revelations of Mirza" Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Revelations of Mirza" Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Someone else has written this, it contains references to them. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who has seen it? Who has written these Revelations of Mirza? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Someone else has... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, which person? 1488 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Malik Manzoor Elahi Sahib. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Was this Ahmad? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I don't know, but Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's fine. After that, say what you want to say. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: There is a revelation of Mirza Sahib recorded in it: "In a revelatory state, I was shown the cemetery which God has named Bahishti Maqbara (Heavenly Graveyard)." And then the revelation came. (Arabic) All the graves on earth cannot compare to this land. Anyway, I didn't have that much time in your book. I wanted to find out if this is your position? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not our position. Our position is that there is only one tomb, that is, worth the name, as they say in English, and that is the shrine of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Bahishti Maqbara? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Huh? No, no. It is Bahishti Maqbara, but its location is not two, that's what I am saying.... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: There are such statements about it, for example Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I still have something to say. "The mosque of Mujaddid Alf Sani is equal to the Prophet's Mosque." This is the Tariqa Mahmoodia translation of Rauza Qayyumia page 68, printed in Faridkot: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIAN ORDUL MA The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that in the whole world, only visit three mosques, because these three mosques are worthy of respect and honor, that is, Masjid al-Haram, Masjid al-Nabawi, and Masjid al-Aqsa, but... Are they? Yes, yes, I know: But some people who are related to Mujaddid Alf Thani have given the mosque the same status as these three mosques. Just then, a voice came from the unseen, that this mosque of Alf Thani is higher and more virtuous than all the mosques on earth except Masjid al-Haram, Masjid al-Nabawi, and Masjid al-Aqsa. This is a hidden mosque among the world's holiest mosques. The reward that the prayer offered gets in these mosques, the same reward will be attained in this mosque of Tarbiyat.” So the place that Bahishti Maqbara has, it doesn't have that status, its concept is different. If you say, I'll tell you two Mr. Chairman: Next question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: There are two verses of "Dur-e-Sameen." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In Urdu? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Dur-e-Sameen which... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Dur-e-Sameen" is in Urdu, Persian, and Arabic. Are these Urdu poems? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: These are in Urdu, Urdu. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Dur-e-Sameen" in Urdu, if the librarian has it, he may give it. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, this is a very well-known poem, you will recognize it: ANDEMOLI OF PAKISTAN [August 24, 1974 These are verses. The land of Qadian is now sacred Stars People It is the land of the Haram If Arabs are proud of the land of the Haram Then the land of Qadian is the pride of Ajam Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Verses of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him)? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are these verses of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him)? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I did not say that. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are these verses from "Dur-e-Sameen"? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: "Dur-e-Sameen" page... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Whose "Dur-e-Sameen"? Who is the poet of these? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Published in "Al-Fazl" December 25, 1932. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, "Al-Fazl." "Dur-e-Sameen" is the name of the collection of Urdu poems by Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him), and this second verse is not in it at all. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: These verses were published in "Al-Fazl" December 25, 1932. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We will have to see to know. This verse, its internal evidence, throws it away from us. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Very well. Now it is in Aina-e-Kamalat that: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1491 "People also go to perform Hajj in a minor and imitative way. But the reward is greater than the optional Hajj in this place." Meaning regarding Qadian... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Than which Hajj? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: "But the reward is greater than the optional Hajj in this place." Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What is an optional Hajj? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Optional Hajj... which people go on after performing the obligatory Hajj. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Meaning after fulfilling the obligation. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: And another one, this is from "Al Fazl," this is the quote: Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, let me answer that, then... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, no, these are two or three quotes on the same topic. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Okay. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This is regarding the annual gathering: "When this gathering brings such blessings with it, participation in it makes people more deserving of reward than an optional Hajj, so there should definitely be a yearning in the heart of every member of the community to benefit from the blessings." Now this is on the same subject: "Allah Almighty has appointed another Hajj gathering so that the nation from whom He wants to take the work of the progress of Islam and so that the poor, meaning the Muslims of India, can participate in it." 1492 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug. 1974 There are many references on this subject. But it is that: This assembly also has the same rules as those for Hajj: (Arabic) "Here, this assembly should also be the same." Meaning, what I mean by this is, what is Zilli Hajj? What is your imagination of it? And Going to two Hajj or more is better than Qadian's Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I will answer... If it is over, shall I answer? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, absolutely. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) have said that according to the Ahmadiyya community, Hajj is obligatory, and there is a great reward for this Hajj, and whenever the conditions of Hajj are met for the Ahmadiyya community, That is, there is safety on the road, etc. This is in our books of jurisprudence. At that time, Hajj must be performed. Should be done. You have said one thing. The second thing you said... and this is correct, I I acknowledge that according to us, Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam, and whoever can perform Hajj and does not does, is a great sinner in our eyes. Meaning, we both agree on this. The second thing you said is that there is a Nafl Hajj. Nafl Hajj is called that Hajj which is said to be the Hajj of a person who has not performed Hajj even once. So what you are attributing to us that the one who has not even once, has performed Hajj once, who has performed Hajj has done, and if he does not perform Hajj for the rest of his life now, because the obligation of Hajj is once in a lifetime, then if he If he does not perform Hajj for the rest of his life, then he will not be sinning if he does not perform Hajj for the rest of his life. And after performing Hajj for the rest of his life, after performing Hajj once, after fulfilling the obligation of Hajj, if he does not perform Hajj anymore for the rest of his life, If he does not perform Nafl Hajj, and keeps plowing with his oxen in his village for the rest of his life and keeps CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1975 May continue to hurl abuses, as is the custom in our village, and another person who has performed Hajj, upon whom the obligation of Hajj no longer rests for the rest of his life, goes to a place besides this Hajj where God and the Messenger words fall on his ears, and opportunities for self-improvement arise, then this is a very good thing, Ahmadis should do this, this is our belief. Mr. Chairman: Next. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And as far as our early literature is concerned, it also tells us many things. It is in "Tazkirat-ul-Auliya," this is it: One year Abdullah, after finishing Hajj... This is Tazkirat-ul-Auliya, a famous book, this is the reference: One year Abdullah, after finishing Hajj, fell asleep for a while in the Haram, and dreamed that two angels descended from the sky. One asked the other. (The angels, it's their conversation) One asked the other, how many people have come for Hajj this year? The answer was six hundred thousand.... The second angel, (the angel who asked the question) said, how many people's Hajj has been accepted? None. I heard this and became agitated. I said, all these people from all over the world, enduring so much hardship and fatigue, traversing desolate lands, will all this be in vain? The angel said, in Damascus there is a (shoemaker). (This is the angel's statement) In Damascus there is a shoemaker whose name is Ali Ibn al-Muwaffaq. He has not come for Hajj, but his Hajj has been accepted. He didn't even come for Hajj, but his Hajj has been accepted.) And all those people (six hundred thousand) have been forgiven because of him. I heard this and woke up and said that I should go to Damascus and visit this person. (My eyes opened in a state of panic). When he went to Damascus, searched for his house, and called out, a person came out. ANKANAAL ADJEMBLI OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 I came. I asked, "What is your name?" He said, "Ali bin Al-Muwaffaq." I said, "I want to tell you something." He said, "Tell me." I asked, "What do you do?" He said, "I mend shoes." I told this incident to them. Then I asked, "What is your name?" (He asked). He told his dream. Then he asked, "What is your name?" I said, "Abdullah bin Al-Mubarak (May God have mercy on him)." He screamed and fell unconscious. When he regained consciousness (the one who didn't go to Hajj but whose Hajj was accepted), when he regained consciousness, I asked, "Tell me about your condition." He said, "For thirty years, I had the desire to perform Hajj, and by mending shoes, I had saved three hundred dirhams for Hajj. This year, I had resolved to perform Hajj, but one day my wife, who was pregnant, smelled food from the neighbor's house and asked me to go and get some food from the neighbor's house. I went, and she said that my children had not eaten anything for seven days and nights (the neighbor's wife had not eaten anything), had not eaten anything. Today, I saw a dead donkey, so I cut its meat and cooked it. This is not lawful for you." When I heard this, my soul was set on fire, and I took three hundred dirhams and gave them to her and said, 'Spend it; our Hajj is here.'" So, after this incident, this is the first incident. After this incident, it was shown to them in a vision. The one who did not come, his Hajj was accepted. And because of him, this happened. So, if we go into these subtleties, there are many things that can refresh a person's faith. But what our belief is, I have told you. Mr. Chairman: Next, Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, look, I was talking about this shadow Hajj. In this, there is a quotation about the blessings of Khilafat: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1495 Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmed Sahib's Annual Convention Address: Today is the first day of the convention, and our convention is like Hajj. Hajj was appointed by God Almighty for the progress of the believers. Today, Hajj is beneficial for Ahmadis from a religious point of view, but its original purpose, which was the progress of the nation, cannot be achieved because the place of Hajj is in the possession of people who consider it permissible to kill Ahmadis. Therefore, God Almighty has appointed Qadian for this task. Just as obscene language and arguments are prohibited in Hajj, so too are they prohibited in this convention.” These are the blessings of Khilafat. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Page 52 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Page 52 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, they are bringing it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is "Khutbat Chaharum Hajj" (Fourth Hajj Sermon). Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Okay, no, this is different. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, your reference is different. No, I made a mistake. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: They are looking. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that's right. I'll answer it. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, yes, yes. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. As you read earlier, this is about a voluntary Hajj. Regarding the obligatory Hajj, we believe that it should be performed in any case. My statement is not finished yet. 1496 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 124th Aug., 1974 Regarding a fictitious Hajj, listen to these words of Abu Al-Ala Maududi Sahib, Hazrat Abu Al-Ala Maududi Sahib: "To reap the full benefits of Hajj, it was necessary for the center of Islam to have such power that it could utilize this global strength. Someone who would infuse the blood of righteousness into the hearts of the entire world every year. Someone who, through those thousands, millions of God-given messengers, would strive to spread the message of Islam throughout the world. And if nothing else, at least a complete model of pure Islamic life would be present there (in the Kaaba, and around it in Mecca), and every year Muslims from around the world would return with a fresh lesson in piety. But alas, there is nothing there. For a long time, ignorance has been nurtured in Arabia. From the era of the Abbasids to the era of the Ottomans, the kings of every era, for their own political purposes, have been trying to keep Arabia backward for centuries instead of developing it. They have brought the people of Arabia to the lowest depths of decline in terms of knowledge, morality, and civilization. The result is that the land from which the light of Islam spread throughout the world has today reached close to the same ignorance in which it was mired before Islam. Now, there is neither the knowledge of Islam, nor Islamic morality, nor Islamic life there. People travel from far and wide to the holy places with deep devotion. But when they arrive in this region and see ignorance, filth, greed, shamelessness, worldliness, immorality, mismanagement, and the generally degraded state of the inhabitants everywhere, the entire illusion of their expectations is shattered." I will not read further. The point is that the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya said this, the Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya said that the fictitious CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION Hajj is obligatory on all Muslims, including members of the Ahmadiyya community. But after performing the obligatory Hajj, there is a center that is propagating Islam in the world. When you have fulfilled that obligation and you have no further obligation to perform Hajj for the rest of your life, then come to the gathering in Qadian to listen to the word of God, to learn about the work that is being done in the world, the results that are coming out, and the blessings of Allah Almighty that are descending in favor of Islam, and listen to our words. And there is no objection to it in my opinion. Mr. Chairman Maulana Zafar Ahmad! Now. Mirza Nama Ahmad Mawad, Maulana Abul Ala Maududi Sahib's Mr. Chairman Maulana Zafar Ahmad! You Maulana..... Mirza Nasir Ahmad Maulana Abul Ala Maududi Sahib's Mr. Chairman: Now, there are some questions about the distortion of the Quran? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes. Murtaza: There are thousands of pilgrims in our community. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, clarify this a little bit... Mr. Chairman: No, let them ask. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, a little clarification is needed on this. He referred to another elder. First of all, that is irrelevant. Secondly, the question is that he said that there are these flaws there. Then did he also specify a place that Hajj will now be held here? Just as you said that now Qadian has been designated by Allah Almighty for this place, did he also say that it will be in Lahore or Sialkot? Mr. Chairman: No, this will not....... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely not said this. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: There is a big difference. Mr. Chairman: This, no, from one question, to other questions. No, the witness can... Maulana... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Look, our main objection is that for this, God Almighty has appointed Qadian for this work. Is it a sign of Allah for Hajj? A place is designated for Hajj which no one else can do. Mr. Chairman: The witness has explained that they consider Hajj as Farz and this is the other place, other Farz than that. This they have categorically said. And when they have said it, then why on one question go on insisting for... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Yes, very good. Mr. Chairman: That is all. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Sir, this is Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya, page 558, in this, Mirza Sahib has mentioned his Bait-ul-Fikr and Bait-ul-Zikr: Now this (Arabic) "Whoever enters it is safe." This is a verse of the Quran which is related to the mosque, that is, the Haram of Mecca. To say that Mirza Sahib's Bait-ul-Fikr and Bait-ul-Zikr which is: "Whoever enters it is safe", to apply this verse of the Quran there, that is... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION ...that the Masjid al-Haram of Mecca, which is called the House of Allah, about which it is said, "Whoever enters it will be safe," ...has been affixed to Bait-ul-Fikr and Bait-ul-Zikr, which is this... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have understood your question. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Let me just... Bait-ul-Zikr refers to the mosque that has been built next to this upper room. And the last sentence, not the aforementioned, is stated in the attribute of this mosque: ...from whose letters the date of the mosque's construction also emerges, and that is: ...etc., etc., meaning that is just my brief question. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The point is that you are saying that the advent of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was only ...so that a city within Mecca and a small place could be made its location. And... ...I say to you that Mecca is that symbol, that example. And we are commanded to make those places in the world ...everywhere, which are "whoever enters it will be safe," which are for the people's peace, where they are from every ...kind of fear, in its example, according to its method, upon those same principles. So "whoever enters it will be safe" is a lesson that has been taught. And upon this, the Jamaat-e- Ahmadiyya and others have also done so before. Our entire history is filled with the mention of those places ...which, in terms of peace, the rest of which are its blessings, are not here, which in terms of peace have been ...replicated and made. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is just a minute. The Delegation will wait in the Committee Room for 10, 15 minutes. In the meantime, we will discuss certain matters. If need be then tomorrow's time will be given, otherwise...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am just going to ask one question. 1500 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 12th Aug., 1974 Give that memorandum. because, I think, if they are not wanted again........ Mr. Chairman: No, then I am going to call them again after 15 minutes, after 15 minutes. Mirza Nasir Ahmed: If we have to come back, then you wait again. Mr. Chairman: 15 minutes. Then we will do it after that. They will be coming Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, fine. here. They will be waiting in the room. We will discuss certain matters and if they are needed tomorrow, we will give them tomorrow's time; otherwise we will ask one or two questions, get their signatures and then we will thank them. This is what I am just about ten minutes. Muhammad Haneef Khan. Wait in this room, then I will send the message. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: Just a second. The Reporters may also leave for 10 minutes. They can rest for 10 minutes. We will call them after 10 minutes. (The Reporters left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: If they like, then they may keep sitting. They are part of the House. If they like, they can keep sitting. If they want, they can have a rest of 10 minutes. And no tape. (Pause) CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1501 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One question here and then answer. Mr. Chairman: One question. Yes, call them in. I will request the honourable members to be (The Delegation entered the Chamber.) (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Only....... I call the House to order. Only three questions will be put. Then certain instructions about clarification will be asked. It won't take more than 10/15 minutes. Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Yes, and one Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari will ask. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: One question is that the Minaret of Christ, which traditions say that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will descend in Damascus, is it found in your books that Mirza Sahib built that minaret? So what is the position regarding this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: He built it in Qadian, and he also declared Qadian to be Damascus. What is this situation? You... Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes. Damascus is also a city made of bricks and mortar, and Damascus... 1502 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug., 1974 There are also some religious associations. So, in the hadith where it is said that the coming Messiah will descend near Damascus, the founder of the sect told us that it does not mean the Damascus which is made of bricks and mortar. Rather, it refers to the associations that the Muslim Ummah has in its mind with Damascus. And the minaret that he revealed as his blanket. The minaret has no other sanctity. But it has been erected as a symbol, an emblem. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: What is the relation of Qadian to Damascus? Did they clarify this? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, there are many others like that, but I have all of them in my mind right now. But one is that Damascus has also been a center of Christianity. And the meaning was taken that since the coming Messiah had to confront Christianity, therefore he (would appear) on its eastern side. Eastern also here spiritually. Meaning where the light of Islam will rise from. And once someone asked me what the purpose of the advent (of the Messiah) is? So I said that I will tell you in the words of the founder of the sect. You (He) said: One purpose of my advent is to break that cross which broke the bones of the Messiah and wounded his body with decisive arguments. So that is the relation of Damascus to the proximity of the center of Christianity. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I draw your attention to page 189 of this "memorandum". Some honorable members are feeling what its relevance is. The rest of your answer is fine. Here you state… Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 189? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 1503 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 189 - Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 189 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A brief, heartfelt warning from the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement. Then it says in it: O people! You must know for sure that I have with me the hand that will be faithful to me until the very end. If your men, your women, your young, your old, your small, and your big all join together to pray for my destruction, even to the point that their noses rot away from prostrating and their hands become paralyzed, even then, God will never listen to your prayer. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you consider this a threat, an appeal, or what? What was the relevance? Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is not a threat, nor is it a wish. You can understand for yourself why I am using these words: "This is not a threat, nor is it a wish." It is merely a humble request that you leave the dispute between you and me to God. And my belief is that when you leave it to Allah Almighty, my prayers will be accepted, and I will be successful, and your prayers will not be accepted. And the purpose for which I have been raised, the dominance of Islam, that will be fulfilled, and Islam will prevail over the entire world. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's fine. I was asked, so I said it. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, that's fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ✓, Sir, shall I ask one more question? 1504 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, several questions were asked in the course of these two weeks, and if you want to add anything in reply to any of the answers which you have given, you may kindly do so, because, I think, we have no more questions to ask. It is only fair...... Mirza Nasir Ahmed: Yes, I understand. The thing is, I, I am not doing any, that, I am not complaining, no complaint or grievance, I am going to state the fact that I have been cross-examined for eleven days. Two days earlier. Eleven days of cross-examination. Which means that for about sixty hours I was cross-examined after being told the questions beforehand. And the state of my mind is this: I don't know day from night. I have other things to do. I have to worship, pray, all sorts of things are going on at the same time. So, if there are any such questions present in my mind regarding which my mind thinks that something else should be said, that is not the case, it is not present at all. I just want to take advantage of your permission to say one thing, that if I could tear open the depths of my heart and show it to you, then in my heart and in the heart of my community, you would find nothing but Allah Almighty, as Islam has presented Him to the world, and the love and devotion of the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad, peace be upon him. Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have no more question. Mr. Chairman: That is all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have no more questions to ask. Mr. Chairman: Any honourable member through the Attorney-General? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, in the end, I will say to Mirza Sahib that he must also be tired, and I am also in the same condition. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That I will say to you again. Mr. Chairman: And for the members also. For the members, I must - Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the honor of your House. Mr. Chairman: I must recognize the patience of all the parties, and, above all, the honorable members who were have as Judges to examine all the aspects of this problem and they were looking, they were helpful. Now, I have certain observations to make before I allow the Delegation to withdraw:- No. (1). All the references which have been given or which have been quoted before the House and have not yet been supplied, may be supplied in a day or two or three. And if there has been any question which has not been answered or any references which can be sent to the Committee, which have remained outstanding, just remained unanswered by mistake or by omission, by the Attorney-General or by the Witness, that may be sent back. The Delegation may be called any time, before this recommendation is concluded, for further clarification, if need be. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It would not happen. 1506 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [24th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: It will, it may. The Delegation may be asked, through writing or through other means, for further elucidation or further clarification of any point which comes during the course of the debate or argument in the Committee of the House. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Thank you. Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: report, in the course of argument........ Mr. Chairman: In the course of arguments....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: they need further clarification..... Mr. Chairman: --they may be asked. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: they write to you and ask for that....... Mr. Chairman: they can ask through a Commission or may be sent by a query or may be. Next point which I want to make also clear that there shall be no disclosure of the proceedings of the Committee for any purpose or for any comments till we release all the evidences which have been recorded. Till then, there cannot be reporting of even the comments as to how the proceeding continued and what was the purpose, what was the object, what was the ...... In no manner can any comments be made by the members of the...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No comments on this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, it should not be published. Mr. Chairman: There should be no publication or comments on this. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes, comments in the publication, etc. We can talk among ourselves. Mr. Chairman: Among themselves, the Delegation can discuss among themselves any time, but not with others, because that would prejudice the results. And secrecy is to be strictly........ Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, we are taking great care on our part, and will continue to do so in the future, God willing. Mr. Chairman: Secrecy....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a restriction on everyone. Mr. Chairman: Secrecy is to be maintained till the last. And, with these words, the Delegation is permitted to withdraw. Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I think that maybe I don't have the right to say anything. If not, even then, I thank everyone. You have been very kind to us. Peace be upon you and God's mercy. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) Mr. Chairman: The Reporters are allowed to withdraw. No tape. 1508 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (24th Aug., 1974 And for the day after tomorrow, at 10:00. Thank you very much. The Special Committee of the whole House adjourned to meet at ten o'clock in the morning, on Monday, the 26th of August, 1974. PCPPI 1099(10)N.A.-14-04-2011-400. No. 12 C 350 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Tuesday, August 27th, 1974 (Contains No. 1-21) CONTENTS Pages 1. Recitation from the Holy Qur'an. 2. Agenda for the Day's Sitting. 1511 1512-1514 3. Replies to Questions in the Cross-examination by a Member other than the Head of the Delegation. 1514 4. Oath by the Delegation 1514-1515 5. Cross-examination of the Lahori Group Delegation 1515-1634 6. Evasive Answers and Proposed speeches by the Witness 1634-1636 7. Cross-examination of the Lahori Group Delegation-(Continued) 1637-1718 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD No. 12 350 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Tuesday, the 27th of August, 1974 (Contains No. 1-21) In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Tuesday, August 27, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at ten o'clock in the morning. Madam Acting Chairman (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN Madam Acting Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General, do you have anything to say before we call the Delegation? Do you have anything to say before we call the Delegation? Mr. Yahya Bukhtiar: No Madam, I think they should be called. Madam Acting Chairman: Yes, call them. (Pause) 1512 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 AGENDA FOR THE DAY'S SITTING Sahibzada Safiullah: Madam Acting Chairman! Madam Acting Chairman: Please don't call them. Sahibzada Safiullah: No, it's a minor thing. Madam Acting Chairman: Okay. Sahibzada Safiullah: The agenda for today's meeting has not been distributed, nor have we received any notice. We talked to each other on the phone and found out that there is a meeting today. Madam Acting Chairman: No, the twenty-seventh (27th) was already announced. Sahibzada Safiullah: No, the twenty-seventh (27th), the complete, i.e., the final decision, was not made that the meeting would be held on that day. Madam Acting Chairman: This decision was not made? Sahibzada Safiullah: At that time, it was said that we would see later, and then decide. Madam Acting Chairman: Well, the twenty-seventh (27th), I say, tell the secretary about the twenty-seventh (27th). Sahibzada Safiullah: The decision was not made. Madam Acting Chairman: The decision has been made. Sahibzada Safiullah: No, the decision has not been made. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Whether they will appear in the morning session or the evening session. It was thought that perhaps the Parliament session would also be held on the morning of the twenty-seventh (27th). AGENDA FOR THE DAY'S SITTING 1513 would be presented in the evening. So we couldn't figure out whether today's meeting was in the morning or not, or if it was a committee meeting, we couldn't figure anything out. Madam Acting Chairperson: They had told us yesterday that there would be a meeting. Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: Yesterday... Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: It would have been fine if there was a special committee meeting, but there was also a joint sitting. Madam Acting Chairperson: You had already left yesterday, after walking out. A Member: The real story is that he left early, he didn't know. Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: If we had walked out, we should have been informed. They should have just informed us to come back tomorrow, and we would have. Madam Acting Chairperson: Well, you have received the information now, that is why you are here. It is over. It is the same thing that you decided in the Steering Committee, there will be questions. (Pause) Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: I made inquiries at the secretariat by telephone. Madam Acting Chairperson: Okay, then we'll see about it. Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: We were not comfortable, that is all, nothing else. Madam Acting Chairperson: No, we will see later. (Pause) When this Parliament was adjourned sine die, the Speaker had announced at that time that there would be a special committee meeting tomorrow at ten o'clock. 1514 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 (The Delegation entered the Chamber) REPLIES TO QUESTIONS IN CROSS-EXAMINATION BY A MEMBER OTHER THAN THE HEAD OF THE DELEGATION Madam Acting Chairman: Before we proceed, the request from the delegation is that because Maulana Sadr-ud-Din will not be able to reply all the questions, therefore, if we allow them, someone else will reply your question, of course, on oath, and the responsibility will be taken by Maulana Sadr-ud-Din. So, if the Committee allows, we will allow them OATH BY THE DELEGATION Madam Acting Chairman, Maulana Sahib! You will take an oath now, and the one who answers on your behalf will also take an oath. This oath is in front of you. But whoever is a member of your delegation, you will take all the responsibility for their answers, just as the answer was given on your behalf. Please tell them this. (Pause) Maulana, did you understand? Then ask them. And whichever delegate wants to answer, please, tell them what I have said. (Pause) Maulana Sadr-ud-Din (Witness, Head of the Ahmadiyya Lahore Group): Whatever I say, I will say truthfully with my faith, knowing that God Almighty is present and watching. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1515 Mr. Abdul Sattar Omar: Whatever I will say, I will consider God Almighty as present and watching, and I will speak the truth according to my faith. (Pause) Respected Acting Chairperson: Will one of you answer or will both gentlemen answer? Maulana Sadruddin: One will answer. Respected Acting Chairperson: One. (Pause) You will answer verbally, but if you give any reference, then you can read it out. Maulana Sadruddin: That is it. Respected Acting Chairperson: You can read that out. Or if there is a long answer, then you can submit it here. If there is a long answer and you need to clarify something in any answer, then start now, Attorney General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana Sadruddin Sahib! Tell us something about the circumstances of your life. Date of birth, when he joined the Ahmadiyya community, what services he performed, some brief details of his life, so that a record is being made, you should state that first. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar (Witness of Jamaat Ahmadiyya, Lahore): Maulana Sadruddin, Sir! Briefly describe the circumstances of your life, when you joined this community, where you were educated, what happened. 1516 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From the date of birth. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: From birth. Maulana Sadr-ud-Din: From when to when? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From his birth. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: From birth. Maulana Sadr-ud-Din: Okay. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He received his education in Sialkot. How old was he when he joined this party? What services did he perform? He went to England and Germany. Maulana Sadr-ud-Din: They call me Sadr-ud-Din. I am a resident of Sialkot. There, I studied up to Entrance at Mission High School. After that, at another college, Mission College, I studied up to FA. After that, in Lahore, I studied up to BA. After that, after two years, I gave the BT exam. I was appointed District Inspector. After that, I was appointed as a professor at the Training College. From there, I went to Qadian. From Qadian, I received an invitation to come here. There was a great bright future for me. But it never occurred to me that I was giving up this bright future and going to Qadian. I went to Qadian. There, in five years, I built a school whose reputation was all over the district. It was of a very high standard in terms of morality and physical strength in sports, football, hockey, etc. And at the annual gathering in the district of Gurdaspur, when our teams played hockey and football, etc., all the officers of the district would come to watch. And they would always get first position and win prizes in all the games. Then I got the opportunity to go to England from there. In the first few years, I converted one hundred English men and women to Islam. This was the passion of serving حضرت مسیح موعود (Hazrat Masih Maud). CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1517 was born because of. We have to show the dominance of Islam in the world. And at that time, I was under the British. A subordinate person goes to their house and explains the teachings of Islam in English, and in the first three years, one or two men and women accept Islam. Again, after a year or a year and a half, I got the opportunity to go to England again. There, within a year and a half, fifty or sixty English men and women became Muslims. Then I came back. After some time, I got the opportunity to go to Germany, in 1923. There, I built a mosque, and with the help of a German scholar, I translated the Holy Quran. I also knew German, but I cautiously kept a learned German Muslim with me and published the translation of the Holy Quran and a detailed commentary of the Holy Quran in German. This had a great impact on the people of Germany. There are differences between Germans and Englishmen in several matters. The German likes the East and respects the people of the East. Because of this respect and because of the high-quality teachings of the Holy Quran, many German men and women became Muslims. So, in this way, my life was spent partly in Europe and partly here. Here, I built an amazing high school that surpassed the English school in Lahore. And all the nobles of Punjab sent their children to this school, and they received education in this school, not only English etc., but also Islamic education, and a model of following Islam was presented to them. This is a brief history about me that I have presented. I pray that. May Allah Almighty send down His blessings in this gathering. (Pause) 1518 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (27th August, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana, you haven't mentioned the date of birth, so that we have some idea, or approximately the year, please tell us something approximately. Maulana Sadr-ud-Din: 1881 in Sialkot. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When did you go to Qadian? You said that you went to Qadian. Maulana Sadr-ud-Din: In 1905. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When did you pledge allegiance to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib? Maulana Sadr-ud-Din: In 1905. (Pause) In this regard, I would like to submit one thing that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib! did not take allegiance saying "I am a prophet." He only took allegiance that "I will live my life according to Islamic teachings." He never said anything about his claim at all. If he were a prophet, it was his duty to inspire me to say, "Believe me as a prophet." But he was definitely not a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana, I... Maulana Sadr-ud-Din: Prophethood ended with Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana! I will ask you questions about this later. Please give me a chance. (Pause) When did the differences between your group and the Qadiani group arise, and on what matter did they arise? (Interruption) Madam Acting Chairman: I would request the honourable members to keep their voice low. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: How can we answer now... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1519 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please give, it is on their side. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The question is when did the differences of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya Lahore start with those people who are currently in Rabwah? Regarding this, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And on what else did they occur? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And on what else did they occur? Regarding this, these differences started in 1910 when Maulana Noor-ud-Din, the first head of this Jamaat after the death of Mirza Sahib, passed away. Although some people might have some thoughts in their minds, the basis of disagreement with this Jamaat regularly was that these people, who are now known as Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ishaat-e-Islam Lahore, were not at all ready to accept, as you just heard from Maulana Sahib, that they had pledged allegiance to Mirza Sahib on the condition that they would live their lives according to Islam, according to the Holy Quran and according to the instructions and example of the leader of the prophets, the Holy Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). We never considered them prophets, we never called those who did not believe in their claims as infidels, we never considered them outside the fold of Islam and we never adopted the position that a new religion is being introduced to the world. We never took this point of view in our minds, nor ever presented it to the world, that we consider Mirza Sahib as such an existence that it has no connection with Islam, he goes out of the Ummah of the leader of the prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and that whatever he has presented, he has presented it in the servitude of Muhammad Rasulullah (peace be upon him). And neither did they understand, nor did they adopt, nor did they instill in their Jamaat, nor among their followers, the idea of an independent status that would take their scope outside of Islam. 1520 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27, 1974) Has anyone ever thought of such a thing? Basically, this difference was based on three things. One difference was that the leader of the prophets, Paak Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), according to Mirza Sahib and his followers, was the خاتم النبیین (the seal of the prophets) in every sense. Any kind of prophethood, give it any name, but it is not something outside the servitude of Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), it is not something outside of his teachings, that teaching is not outside the Holy Quran, that teaching is not outside of Islam. I present a verse of Mirza Sahib which is in these words: "To make a Muslim a Muslim again" This was his mission, this was his work and this was his teaching that make Muslims true Muslims. And exhort them to follow the example of the Holy Quran and to follow the example of Muhammad (peace be upon him) and to create such a servant of Islam group that they dedicate their body, mind and wealth only and only to the service of Islam and spread the radiance of the name of Muhammad Rasool Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the world. This was the mission. Therefore, in 1913, the first mission that this group established in foreign countries was in Woking, which was headed by Khawaja Kamal-ud-Din Sahib at that time. That person is a known figure in the world. The world is buzzing with the lectures of that person. He is not a reclusive person, his ideas are not hidden ideas. Look at all the newspapers of that time, look at all the literature of that time, look at his speeches of that time, you will not find anywhere the point of view that this is a mission in Europe which has been established to preach a new religion separate from Islam. When Khawaja Sahib went there, I mentioned that this is the matter of 1913. Until then, the Jamaat was based on the same point of view that Mirza Sahib is not a prophet, denial of Mirza Sahib does not cause disbelief, believing in Mirza Sahib does not make the circle of Islam cheap. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1521 man does not exit, and that whoever associates himself with Mirza Sahib, his task, the mission of his life, is as the Quran has said: (Arabic) that a group should emerge among Muslims that dedicates itself to the service of Islam, that this movement was solely a movement for the service of Islam, and that there was no concept of any new religion, new prophethood, or new faith in any way. So, the first basis of disagreement, as I mentioned, was that we never, neither during his life nor after his life, in any period, accepted Mirza Sahib as a prophet or messenger. The second disagreement was based on the fact that, in our view, no matter how great a person's status may be, no matter how grand the claims he may bring, no matter how close he may be to God, he will still remain a servant of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), he will still remain a slave of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), he will still remain within the circle of Islam, you can give him any name, because in the name: (Arabic) Everyone can use any (name) for him: I, you will use some other word for him, in Urdu you will do something else, in some other language of the world you will make some other translation for it, the concept, the reality, the spirit working behind it will be that no matter how bad a person is, he cannot go outside the servitude of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And this was Mirza Sahib's claim that I am a slave of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Now look! What is the connection between believing or not believing someone who is a slave of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah? He never said this, not even once did he say that "whoever is my... 1522 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 denies the claim is out of the circle of Islam. So, our second difference was this was that despite believing in Mirza Sahib's claim, even after acknowledging him, we did not give him the status that he, apart from Islam, after leaving the servitude of Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, does not have an independent existence whose acceptance or rejection is part of faith. We did not consider believing in him as part of faith. Our third difference with them was that Mirza Sahib had taught us this that whoever professes "There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah," no matter how much deficiency there is in his actions, mistakes occur, and even if there are some faults in his beliefs, he is certainly a sinner, he is accountable he is certainly accountable, he is certainly blameworthy, but that person does not go out of the circle of Islam. In other words, we never accepted the viewpoint of Takfeer-e-Muslimeen (declaring Muslims as infidels). This was our third difference with the people of Rabwah that we consider Muslims, whether they belong to any sect whether they belong to Ahl-e-Sunnat wal Jamaat, whether they belong to Ahl-e-Tashayyu', or to their subservient sects, in no way, in no color, do we consider those people outside the circle of Islam. Not only this, but a large part of our life has been spent on this, the literature we have produced in the world, the literature our elders have given to the world, a large part of it has been spent on avoiding Takfeer of Muslims. In this regard, allow me to present before you the view of the Lahore Jamaat on this matter, regarding Takfeer-e-Muslimeen. Our stance regarding Takfeer-e-Muslimeen is this, on which we, as I have mentioned as I mentioned, not just in words but in actions, not from today, not from ten years ago, from the riots of 1953 since the time of its beginning till now, we stand firmly, with great stability and which is a fundamental point of our manifesto. The newspapers of our CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1523 are published by, we write this word on its heading: "We do not accept Takfeer-ul-Muslimeen." And it is a fundamental point of our manifesto that to declare any Kalima reciting, Qibla-facing person outside the circle of Islam is a great audacity, a very heavy crime and a severe sin. It shatters the unity of the Islamic world and strengthens the hands of the enemies of Muslims. Allah Almighty says in the Holy Quran: (Arabic) That whoever greets you with "As-salamu alaykum" while expressing Islamic symbols, do not say to him that you are not a believer. There is a hadith of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), which is present in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim, and it is a unanimously agreed upon hadith that no one has ever called wrong: (Arabic) Whoever calls his brother a Kafir, one of them will befall Kufr as a punishment. Similarly, there is another hadith: (Arabic) Do not declare the people of Qibla as Kafir. It is proven from the verses of the Holy Quran and the hadiths of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) how much Allah Almighty and His beloved Messenger dislike the Takfeer of Muslims and what a dangerous punishment has been prescribed for the culprit who calls a Muslim a Kafir, that Kufr turns back on the one who says it. Why has such a severe punishment been prescribed? The reason for this is so that Muslims may abstain from this dangerous way which shatters Islamic unity. It is in the hadith: (Arabic) This is the hadith of Bukhari. "That is, whoever prays like us, faces our Qibla, eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim for whom there is the protection of Allah Almighty and His Messenger (peace be upon him)." 1524 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27, 1974) In the presence of these clear instructions from the Holy Quran and the Hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), it is not the correct way to declare others as infidels by nitpicking, being spiteful, dwelling on ambiguities, and using doubts and suspicions. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) says: (Arabic) That is, on the Day of Judgment, the abundance of the Ummah of Muhammad will be a matter of pride for me. Therefore, any action that shrinks the circle of the Ummah of Muhammad and reduces the number of followers of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not the correct way. We have come into the world to make people believers, not to make them infidels. Our point of view on the Ummah of Muhammad is that many calamities came, and internal riots took place. During the time of Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him), a group of Muslims refused to pay Zakat to Bait-ul-Mal. Hazrat Usman was martyred at the hands of those who called themselves Muslims. Brotherly wars took place between Hazrat Ali (may Allah honor his face) and Hazrat Muawiyah. But what pure-hearted people they were. Despite this intense opposition, Hazrat Haider Karrar did not say, which is a good example for us, that these are our brothers who have revolted against us; we do not call them infidels. This is the saying of that Caliph Rashid (may Allah be pleased with him) who possessed both outward and inward caliphates. Mr. Speaker, it was the Khawarij group that first laid the foundation of Takfir (declaring someone an infidel) among Muslims. After that, the hobby of Takfir gained so much popularity that even great saints and divine scholars could not escape such decrees. If a census of Muslims is conducted on the basis of such decrees, perhaps not a single person will be found in the entire Islamic world who can be counted within the circle of Islam. If you want to see the cheapness of Takfir decrees, then take a look at the pile of decrees that the followers have issued against the Wahhabis and Deobandis. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1525 have accused. There is no need to state the views that Shia gentlemen hold about Sunnis. Who is unaware of the fatwas of the Ahl-e-Hadith regarding Barelvis and Badayunis. In short, every sect considers the scholars of another sect to be infidels. We don't want this to be our way. We do not want to waste your precious time by presenting that pile of material to you. Fatwas decorated with such seals can be found in the markets in any number you want. Respected Acting Chairperson: You had asked what your disagreement was on. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have submitted that our disagreement is on this matter that it is not permissible to declare Muslims as infidels. Our position on this matter is the same as that of Hazrat Imam Abu Hanifa (may God be pleased with him), that if a person has ninety-nine (99) reasons for disbelief, and you see only one reason for faith in him, then even then do not call that person an infidel. This is our disagreement that we had with the people of Rabwah. So far I have presented three differences to you. Our fourth disagreement with Jamaat Rabwah is that we people, after Mirza Sahib, do not accept that kind of caliphate which is found in Rabwah. In our opinion, the caliphate that has the color of the caliphate of a prophet within it, we do not consider that to be permissible. In our opinion, whatever caliphate there is, it is only the caliphate of the Sheikhs, and the caliphate of the Sheikhs is the only thing on which we have based our system. We people are neither in favor of something that a system should be created that does political work. What we believe in, in our country we absolutely do not accept that kind of caliphate that a party goes underground and does some political work, this is also illegitimate in our opinion. We do not take the caliphate in this sense either that a person, being unauthorized, being a figure of mistakes, being the source of thousands of errors, despite that, his position is made such that he is the ruler over everyone, and democracy is uprooted. 1526 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 ...be done. This is also not the meaning of Khilafat according to us. So this was the fourth point on which we have a difference of opinion with the Rabwah people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana, please tell me, the last thing you said, I'll come to that, then I'll ask some more questions. You said that you are against such a caliphate that is a type of dictatorship. And which makes an ordinary man so powerful, which is in Riyaz. Did you say this based on experience or when did you realize this? When did the person sit who did the dictatorship, whom you felt and you opposed them? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! May I present? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, our idea is based on the will of Hazrat Mirza Sahib. This is the will that Hazrat Mirza Sahib made to his community in 1905. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I, you did not understand my question. When did this difference arise, on what matter, on what date? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In 1914. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who was the dictator who sat in 1914 who made you realize that he is doing the wrong kind of dictatorship and you should separate from this party? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My request is that in 1914, when Maulana Nooruddin passed away, Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Sahib took the position that the community should have an autonomous head (head) who should be the Caliph. He said this in 1910. We did not accept this because of some incidents of his dictatorship... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1527 were in front of us, but we rejected this in principle because Mirza Sahib's will to us was that he had established an association after him, in his lifetime he had established an association and said that this association should carry out the affairs of this group with majority opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This association that carried out the affairs of the group with majority opinion, did the same association make Hakim Noor-ud-Din Sahib the first Caliph, is that correct? At that time there was no dictatorship? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was Caliph completely according to the principles? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Completely according to the principles, in fact, I would submit that he was a person who was admittedly the most pious, the most learned in the group, and Mirza Sahib has written about him that he is such a follower of mine as the pulse of a person moves with the movement of his heart." He was such a follower of him. But, and he was the president of this association, from that first day, not later. This when he became Caliph in 1913, not at that time the president, but he had become president since 1905. He had been coming as president since that time. He never ran the association under a dictatorial system. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is what I am submitting to you. Maulana Sahib, please pay attention. You have prepared speeches beforehand. You do not listen to the question. Please if you listen to my question and answer it, then of course, afterwards you may also recite whatever you have written. I was submitting that after the death of the first Caliph, Hakim Noor-ud-Din Sahib! Before the election of Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad Sahib, you withdrew from the party, is this correct? 1528 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27, 1974) Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, no sir, not before the election. Yes sir, Mr. Mirza... This incident happened at the time of the death of Maulana Nooruddin Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But that death happened and the election came, both were together, that's what I'm saying. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So immediately after that death... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You separated. So you didn't see Mirza Bashiruddin Sahib's dictatorship, nor were you ever under him. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, this community never remained under them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so you never saw his dictatorship ever? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes sir, I did see. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, meaning you were never under that community, never under them, never swore allegiance to them? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So the effect of his dictatorship couldn't have been on you. You saw it just like I see it or anyone else is seeing it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, they... I submitted that Mirza Sahib has a will. He violated section 18 of that will. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: At the same time when he said, "I am becoming the Caliph." CROSS-EXAMINATION ON: THE LALIORI GROM.IP DELEGATION 1529 So, he said that from now on, my orders for this association will be as binding as they were during Mirza Sahib's lifetime." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there was no election at that time? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He said this before the election? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No. During the time of the election. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: All these things were presented. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, did he say this before being elected or after being elected? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Before. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He said it before. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, he said this before too, but this change of resolution happened later. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After the election? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, when you left before the election, then... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, he had expressed these views of his beforehand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he made this expression, then who separated him, and why? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When he expressed these views, who elected him and why? 1530 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, he expressed his views while staying within the party. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said when he expressed these views within the party, and a body of the party had to elect him. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, the party as a whole had to elect him, there was no electoral college. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then why was he elected? (To Mirza Masood Baig) You please tell if you know. You tell them. Yes, please speak through them, because then everyone has to take a separate oath. Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: May I have permission? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, the permission is from the committee, but you please tell. Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: Considering Allah Almighty to be present and watching... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please also state your name so that it comes on record as to who it is from. Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: I will speak the truth according to my faith, considering God Almighty to be present and watching whatever I say. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And your name please? Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: Sir, my name is Masood Baig Mirza. I am the secretary of this association. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: My request is that the gentleman who is answering, if he could also give a brief introduction of when he joined the sect, it would be easier for us. Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: Very well, sir! My name, who is currently honored to be addressing you, is Masood Baig. I am the secretary of this association. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1531 I am a retired officer of the Education Department and am currently serving this association, and have done so in the past. So, this question was very pertinent, and I want to give a brief answer to it. That question was very correct. So, it's not that my brother didn't have the ability. I said that I might be able to answer it briefly. So, you asked what color you saw of Mirza Bashiruddin's dictatorship, and the whole party elected him. Sir! Mirza Sahib passed away in 1902. From 1998 to 1917 Until, in which Hazrat Maulana Noor-ud-Din Sahib passed away, in these six years The foundation for differences had already been laid. The belief in prophethood was also fabricated during this period, and Mirza Sahib, despite not being a Caliph, wrote articles on Takfir-ul-Muslimeen (declaring Muslims as non-Muslims). And Hazrat Maulana Noor-ud-Din Sahib said once or twice that This issue of disbelief is very delicate; our Mian (master) has not understood it yet. At the time of the election So, it is true that he was elected Caliph with great force in the election. There was also rigging. This is the right thing to say. And in the last days of Maulana Noor-ud-Din Sahib's life, his relatives prepared people by making rounds and traveling. And because he was the son of Hazrat Sahib, his election was very easy. But the elders of the Lahori group, Maulana Muhammad Ali And other people wanted to maintain the unity of the Jamaat (community); they wanted to maintain it. They used to say to Mian Sahib, "We are not in agreement with your belief. This issue of prophethood and Takfeer, but we want the unity of the Jamaat." So, the first dictatorial thing that Mirza Sahib did, which is the answer to your question, was that according to the will of Mirza Sahib, the Anjuman (association) which 1532 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 She was followed, the association was the ruler. Hazrat Mirza Sahib had made this will that "After me, this association is the successor to God's Caliph. Whatever the association decides by majority vote, that decision will be final." This was the will of Hazrat Mirza Sahib, and he had formed the association in 1905. And he made Maulana Nooruddin Sahib its president and distanced himself from all matters. He said, "Whatever the association decides by majority vote will be correct." However, until I am alive, this system will remain that I should be informed of the decisions that have been made. Perhaps there is a divine purpose in some decision, then I will tell you. But after me, every matter will be decided by majority vote." So Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad Sahib did the first thing, in April 1912, he revoked this resolution. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are saying correctly, I am not talking about what happened later, when he was elected. Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was saying from the beginning that you were separate from the beginning. Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: No, he never did that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you did not separate from the beginning, did you separate after the election? Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: After the election, after the election, he passed this resolution in April. And the existence of the Lahore association came into being in 1914. When the people of Lahore were forced, they saw that it was difficult to million with them, then they came to Lahore. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was there any other candidate in the election there? Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: There was no candidate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, a candidate regarding whom the Jamaat members were thinking. Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That he should become the Khalifa. Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: Sir! There was no other proposal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: Only one name was proposed. Everyone said, "Mubarak, Mubarak, Mubarak." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you that you please... Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Listen to my question. Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: Sir! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that some rigging also occurred. Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, in the eyes of the Jamaat members who were electing or who were... Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Besides Mian Mahmood Ahmad, was there any personality who wanted that this would be a better personality, that if he becomes our Khalifa, or was there no other person? Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: There was no candidate. 1234 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (27th August, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not calling him a candidate... Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: They are always in the public eye. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So, someone... Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: Meaning a servant of Islam, who was the secretary of that association from the beginning, Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib, in knowledge, in virtue, in age, in experience, Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Sahib's age was 19 years at that time when this election took place. At that time, his age was 25 years when Mirza Sahib died, 19 years. Sorry, at that time, his age was 25 years. He was a young man. So, Maulana Muhammad Ali had a lot of experience. Some people thought that Maulana Muhammad Ali could run it better. But Maulana Muhammad Ali did not present himself as a candidate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I did not say this. Then after this, they wanted Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib to be the Khalifa, did he separate from the group? Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: He did not separate for this reason, Sir! He did not separate because Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib was not elected. As I mentioned before, he tried for a month and a half for agreement and unity. He said that it is not right that you have changed the will of Hazrat Sahib. And these beliefs of yours, Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Sahib used to say, "Either pledge allegiance to me and stay here, pledge allegiance to me." He used to say, "We cannot pledge allegiance to you due to these reasons because we have pledged allegiance to Hazrat Mirza Sahib. Those who have pledged allegiance to Mirza Sahib, we do not consider it necessary to pledge allegiance to you." And the second thing was about the system, in which they had fundamentally created a rift by completely obliterating that clause, section 18 which was in it. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1535 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When did they do this? Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: In April 1914. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When was their election? Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: In March 1914. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So in the meantime, Maulana Muhammad Ali took oath on that... Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib did not take oath, but in Qadian... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, why? Because that clause was not terminated yet. Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: I, I submit, it was because of that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please submit. Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: I present a quotation from the newspaper "Al-Hilal" of that time before you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please answer first. Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: The answer is in it. These very words are part of that answer: "For some time now, two groups had emerged in this community due to the issue of Takfir. One group... the basis was the issue of Takfir." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which year's Al-Hilal is this? Mr. Masood Beg Mirza: Sir, I am referring to 'Al-Hilal', dated March 20, 1914. I mentioned this because it probably answers your question. 1536 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 For a long time, two factions had emerged in this Jamaat based on the issue of Takfir (declaring someone a non-Muslim). One group believed that non-Ahmadis are not Muslims even if they do not believe in Mirza Sahib's claims. However, the other group explicitly stated that those who do not believe in Mirza Sahib are definitely Kafirs (infidels). "Inna Lillahi wa Inna Ilayhi Raji'un (From God we come and to Him we return)." The leader of the latter group is Sahibzada Bashiruddin Mahmud. This group has now declared him as the Khalifa (Caliph). But the first group does not accept this. Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib M.A. has published a writing on this matter, and the remarkable courage and bravery with which he has expressed his views while residing in Qadian, where the leaders of the first group are not, is truly an event that will always be remembered as a significant event of this year. So, my request is this: Now, in response to your question, the basis of the disagreement was the issue of Takfir, it was the issue of Prophethood, and these were the views of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad Sahib that the Khilafat (Caliphate) should be run under a dictatorial system. For this, he would advise Maulana Nuruddin from time to time, "Sir! Do not do it this way, but rather take full control of the Khilafat and also take the financial matters into your own hands." جناب میکنی بختیار (Mr. McKnee Bakhtiar): Please state whether Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib had pledged allegiance to Hakim Nuruddin? جناب مسعود بیگ مرزا(Mr. Masood Baig Mirza): Yes. جناب یخنی بختیار (Mr. Yakhni Bakhtiar): So then why did he object that since I have pledged allegiance to Mirza Sahib, I will not pledge allegiance to Mirza Bashiruddin? You were saying... جناب مسعود بیگ مرزا(Mr. Masood Baig Mirza): I, I will submit regarding this, Maulana Sahib himself answered it. He said, "I have pledged allegiance to Hazrat Mirza Sahib... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1537 pledged allegiance, and after that, pledged allegiance to Maulana Nooruddin. Neither of them ever instructed me to declare Muslims as infidels. But Mirza Mahmud Ahmad does instruct this, so keeping this thought in mind, I cannot join his allegiance. If Mirza Sahib, Mirza Mahmud Sahib abandons this thought, then we have no objection to his allegiance." (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that the series of declaring people infidels had started earlier. 1906 or 1908 or . Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: No sir, not in 1906 or 1908, but after Mirza Sahib's death. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After 1908. Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: Yes sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And who started this? Mr. Masood Baig Mirza: Actually, it is a big historical debate as to who was the person who initiated it. Apparently, the information that we have is that a person Zahiruddin Umrohi was the one. He expressed some such ideas in 1911 and presented Mirza Sahib's prophethood. From this, it is probably just speculation. From this, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad Sahib probably borrowed this idea and then molded his thoughts in its mold and then started spreading this thing all around. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I would like to draw your attention to some of Mirza Sahib's followers. Before that, there are some questions that, if answered, it will be easier. What is meant by "Kafir" (infidel)? I am simply asking you, "One who denies?" 1538 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I would like to submit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Isn't that what it means, surely? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I would like to submit. The word "Kafir" has been used in two ways in Islamic literature, and these two ways of usage are also found in the writings of Mirza Sahib. It is mentioned in Hadith that a person who intentionally abandons prayer becomes a Kafir. But this is not called technical Kufr. The term for it, please forgive me, is "Kufr Do Kufr," Arabic words. It means that the person remains within the circle of Islam, but in reality, he is not a Muslim. He is not fully committed to the spirit of Islam. The word Kufr is also used in this sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He becomes a sinner of sorts. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: But the real use of "Kufr," its true meaning, is not that a person denies the Prophethood of Muhammad Mustafa (peace be upon him) and the Kalma Tayyiba (the declaration of faith, "There is no god but Allah"). In essence, technically, Kufr can only be used in these meanings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If someone denies the prophets who are mentioned in the Holy Quran, will he not be a Kafir? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The thing is, it is mentioned at the beginning of the Holy Quran: (Arabic) That to be a Muslim, it is necessary to believe in the revelation of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), and to accept and believe in the revelations that came before him. These are the very first words. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1539 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say that the prophets of Allah, who are mentioned in the Holy Quran, is it also necessary to believe in them? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If one does not believe in them, one becomes a disbeliever. Now, this Promised Messiah, whose claim was made by Mirza Sahib, do you acknowledge that he was the Promised Messiah? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Promised Messiah was also a prophet. The Messiah? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ) (peace be upon him). Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was a prophet of Allah... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...and he is to return? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: His prophethood did not end during this period? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, my request in this regard is that I would like to present the viewpoint of this community before you with great clarity. It is that our belief, which we prove from the Holy Quran, the Prophetic traditions, and the sayings of the elders of this community, is that the Messiah who was sent as a messenger to the Children of Israel, according to the Children of Israel, has passed away with his natural death. And these traditions which state that in the latter days, in the guise of the Promised Messiah. 1540 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 27th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar, Messiah Nasari's: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I would like to submit something because there is no need to go into that detail. Whether they come physically or in any other form, that is your disagreement, that is not the point. But there is no denying that they came in some form or another? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So in whatever form they come, whether they descend from the sky physically or in the form of another human being who possesses all those qualities, in that form they come, will they be a prophet or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am submitting... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is what I am asking. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That their prophethood ends? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, I submit, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) mentioned the second coming of the Messiah. And the words of the hadith in Sahih Muslim are that he will be a prophet of Allah. But if the same Messiah is to come, is he to come with real prophethood? Then this is against the finality of prophethood of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). In our opinion, in our knowledge, according to our belief, in whatever form that Messiah is to come, according to us it is in a metaphorical sense, he is to come in the form of another person. But if someone has in their mind that the same Messiah is to come, then no one can come with prophethood after Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). If he has real prophethood then our... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1541 According to us, that person is a denier of the finality of prophethood. And according to us, Mirza Sahib... After the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), neither an old prophet can come, nor a new prophet can come, but because the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has used the word "Nabi Allah" for him, therefore, for the sake of the honor that this pure being has in our hearts, we understand that it refers to that kind of prophethood in an unreal way, which some saints have called "Prophets of the Saints." In such a form, that prophethood can come. But in its true sense, in the sense that after Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), an independent being has come, this is not permissible according to us. And we such... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, now, now Maulana! Now the question becomes that Mirza Sahib claimed to be the Promised Messiah. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you say that yes, he was the Promised Messiah. And this too you say that he was not a prophet of any kind. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning somewhere verbal, somewhere reflective. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Symbolic. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Metaphorical. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I, I will say with great clarity, we do not believe in any kind of prophethood. These shadow and reflective (prophethoods) are not types of prophethood, these are words used for a non-prophet, and I will tell you... 1542 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27th, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the word "Prophet" that Mirza Sahib used for himself... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, he used it in the sense that people before him used the word "Prophet" in the sense of "Muhaddith" (narrator); Mirza Sahib took the same meaning. And I will present Mirza Sahib's writing before you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will ask you about the writing. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The writings that you have quoted here, we have seen them. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. I was making a request in connection with your question that what do you people think about the one who is to come, will he be a prophet or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please tell. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The submission for that is regarding the coming Messiah. This is a book by Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is the date of it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, this is "Anjam Atham," that is its name. In it, he states: "The name of the coming Messiah, which in true knowledge etc., from the holy tongue of the Holy Prophet, may Allah be pleased with him, has emerged, is in accordance with those figurative meanings which are accepted in the books of Sufis and is a common idiom of divine discourse. Otherwise, how can there be a "Nabi" (Prophet) after "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" (Seal of the Prophets), "Khatam-ul-Anbiya" (Seal of the Prophets)?" CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1543 This is the writing of Mirza Sahib, from which it will have become clear that Mirza Sahib and we, those who follow him, use the word "Nabi Allah" (Prophet of God) in relation to the Promised Messiah in a metaphorical sense, in an unreal sense, only in the sense of "Muhaddith" (one who is spoken to), only in the sense of those who converse with God, never in the real sense of prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Maulana! Please give another definition. That of "Kufr" (disbelief). This of conversing with God. There is Ilham (inspiration), and there is Wahi (revelation). What is the difference between Ilham and Wahi? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! There is a Hadith of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) that prophethood has ended, but the door of "Mubashirat" (good tidings) is open. And what the saints have meant by these "Mubashirat" is virtuous dreams, Wahi, Ilham, Kashf (visions), this word has been used for these things. And in our view, where the door of prophethood is closed after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), there this attribute of God Almighty, that He converses with His servants, is not suspended. And we believe in the dialogue and address of God Almighty through virtuous dreams, Ilham, Wahi, and Kashf. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, I will submit to you, what is the difference between Ru'ya (dream), Kashf, Ilham, and Wahi? Please explain this so that we can ask questions later. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I would like to submit that in our view, the words "Wahi" and Ilham are not separate, but we have always, and Mirza Sahib and the earlier saints and scholars of God have used them synonymously. But some people differentiate between "Wahi" and Ilham. That is their terminology, not ours. In our view, "Wahi"... "33" 1544 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 and inspiration, are synonymous words. The quality of revelation and inspiration is such that in a dream, a person is asleep, which we commonly call dreaming. But sometimes it happens that a person is awake and, removing the barriers of walls and distances, he sees the thing behind the wall and from a long distance. If I present an example, perhaps the matter will become clear. Hazrat Umar (RA) was giving the Friday sermon in Masjid-e-Nabawi when suddenly these words escaped his lips: (Arabic). People were surprised at what word! He is giving a sermon and an unrelated word is being used. After the sermon, Abdur Rahman bin Auf appeared before him. He asked, "Sir, what is this story of Sariah?" He said, "Nothing, I was giving the sermon, and suddenly a state of revelation overcame me, and I saw that the Muslim armies fighting on the border of Syria, in the battlefield, a moment came when Sariah, the commander who is leading the Muslim army against the Romans, a small contingent of Romans wanted to attack their rear, their back, from behind the mountain. So I couldn't bear it, and immediately it came out of my mouth that Sariah should turn towards the mountain. So this state went away from me and I started giving my sermon. After that, it happened that when the caravan reached Medina with the news of the war, the letter that Sariah sent from there was that these were the conditions, this happened, and this happened. And he also said: "On Friday, at the time of Friday, I heard a voice while I was fighting my armies, in which I was told to turn towards the mountain, and that was the voice of the gentleman, that is, the voice of Hazrat Umar. So I... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1545 When I looked that way, a small platoon was attacking our back. So I took my army and climbed up the hill, and that's how we escaped this defeat, and our people, by the grace of Allah, were saved. So look, this is the state of revelation that Hazrat Umar, while in Medina, saw the sights of the borders of Syria, and this is the state that Hazrat Umar gave a voice in the Prophet's Mosque, and that voice traveled hundreds, thousands of miles to reach the ears of Hazrat Sariya, and he acted upon it. This is the state of revelation. Our concept of what is called "Wahi" (revelation) and "Ilham" (inspiration) is that Allah Almighty, in the same way that I am talking to you and my voice is reaching your ears and reaching from the outside, these are not internal thoughts, but rather a voice from the outside reaches your ears, in the same way, the recipient of revelation and inspiration receives a voice from the outside of God Almighty, and those are words, those words have meanings, and in them there is also a lot of news. The clear, good, and pure word for this state is "Mukalma Mukhataba Ilahiya" (Divine Conversation), meaning that God Almighty converses with that person, addresses him, talks to him. These are the meanings of "Wahi" and Ilham" to us. There are many types of Wahi and Ilham. The Holy Quran itself describes many such states. Sometimes it is referred to as "behind a veil," sometimes it is said that an angel comes and speaks. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Maulana! I am asking about "Wahi" and... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In our opinion... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... 1546 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Synonymous words. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It may not be according to you, otherwise. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, some people have... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Some people have differentiated between "Wahi" (revelation) and "Ilham" (inspiration). They believe that "Wahi" is only for the prophets, and "Ilham" is a general term. But this is some people's opinion. We do not believe in it, nor did Mirza Sahib consider this difference in his eighty (80) plus books. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You should tell me, is there a possibility of error in "Ilham" or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no error. "Ilham" is the word of God. There is absolutely no error in "Ilham". But since the one who listens to these words is a human, a human can make mistakes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is what I am asking. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Therefore, "ijtihadi" error, as it is called in terminology, can occur... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the same with "Wahi" (revelation). Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: There is no error in "Ilham". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can this also happen in "Wahi" (revelation)? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In both? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In both. 1547 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Madam, shall we have a break for tea? And then we can continue; about 12 o'clock, twelve past 12:00. Madam Acting Chairman: The delegation is allowed to. We will call you at 12 o'clock then there will be a tea break. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Around twelve, twelve fifteen then. Maulana Sadruddin: Alright. Thank you. Madam Acting Chairman: The members may kindly keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber) (Pause) Madam Acting Chairman: The members can have a break for tea for fifteen minutes. Have you got to say anything? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, nothing. Madam Acting Chairman: We can break for fifteen minutes and come back at about 12 o'clock.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: About.... Madam Acting Chairman: ...... for tea break, for tea, NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 The Special Committee adjourned for tea break to meet at 12:00 noon. [The Special Committee reassembled after tea break, Madam Acting Chairman (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi) in the Chair.] Madam Acting Chairperson: I would like to request the honorable members that you people know that we want to finish this as quickly as possible. And we take a break for fifteen minutes, and the quorum is not formed for forty-five minutes. So, please, even this evening, if you take the trouble for these two or three days and come on time, we want to finish this matter as quickly as possible. Yes, call them in. I request, while this is happening, if you want to speak, please speak in a low voice, it causes a great disturbance. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Madam Acting Chairman: Yes, Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana! I was asking you this question about "Wahi" (revelation) and Inspiration. You said that in your opinion, there is no difference between the two, but some people differentiate. Then I asked you, can there be a mistake in it? You said, "From the one who speaks." Mr. Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: There can be a mistake. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, there can be. If a prophet receives revelation, then there cannot be a mistake in it? 1549 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This, this, is it possible that Mirza Sahib's revelation could be wrong? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have submitted that there can be no mistake in revelation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if the writer Mirza Sahib could make a mistake, that... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes, yes, Mirza Sahib, some ijtihadi error... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Since he was a human, not a prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Absolutely. (Pause) You stated that a person within the circle of Islam, who is of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)'s Ummah, a person who is of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)'s Ummah, may have mistakes, whatever may happen, he does not exit the circle of Islam as long as he believes in the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), believes in Oneness. Now the question arises that if a person denies any prophet of God, then you said he is a disbeliever. And the person who believes in the prophethood of someone who is not a prophet, will he also be a disbeliever? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Regarding this, my submission is that I took a little of your time so that our viewpoint regarding the issue of Takfir (excommunication) may be clarified. We submitted that if a person is a Muslim, recites the Kalima Tayyiba, and there are ninety-nine (99) reasons for disbelief in him, then our point of view will be that we do not declare him a disbeliever. And to say that a person is also a Muslim and he also claims prophethood, in our opinion, it is a matter of consensus. If a person is a claimant of prophethood, then he is not a Muslim. If he is a Muslim then he is not... 1550 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Claims of Prophethood. For this, I myself present Mirza Sahib's own writing before you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's not it. I think you must keep that writing. I just want to clear the position so that it becomes easier to ask further questions in it... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. So my request is this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So I submitted that, suppose a person says, "I do not believe in Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, but I believe in the rest of the prophets. I am a Muslim, but I do not consider Jesus Christ to be a prophet." So, from the Muslim point of view, will he be a disbeliever or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In this regard, I had used a corrective word: (Arabic) falls under its scope. But real disbelief, as it is called... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He will not be excluded from the circle of Islam? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, because he believes in the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. He may interpret it somehow... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, despite that... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He may explain it somehow. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A prophet who is a true prophet... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Denies his prophethood, yet he remains within the circle of Islam, from your point of view? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORE GROUP DELEGATION 1551 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, if he considers Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, he Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... Therefore, if someone doesn't consider an imposter, as they say, or a person who is not a prophet but claims prophethood, to be truthful, then from your point of view, he will not be outside the circle of Islam if he... Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, allow me to clarify. My submission was that, in our view, no Muslim, while remaining within the circle of Islam, while professing to be a Muslim, while professing "La ilaha illallah," can claim prophethood. These are two contradictory things. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not saying this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not going into the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib at this time. I am asking a general question. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Was. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That if today a person claims prophethood, and we Muslims believe that no prophet can come after the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, today he makes a claim, in Mandi Bahauddin or somewhere, and there are two or four people with him, they say, "Yes, he is a true prophet, we accept him. He is only an Ummah, from the Ummah of the Holy Prophet. But he is a true prophet." So, what we think is not a prophet and is an imposter, a false claimant, and these people call him a true prophet, can they remain Muslims? Will they be considered infidels or not? 1552 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 (Interruption) Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! The question, as I understand it, is that if a person claims to be a prophet, and someone believes in his prophethood, will that person be considered a Kafir (disbeliever) or not? Perhaps I have understood correctly. In this regard, I was submitting that we are fundamentally strongly opposed to declaring Muslims as Kafirs. In this matter, our religion, as I mentioned, is the religion of Imam Abu Hanifa, which states that if you find ninety-nine (99) reasons for disbelief in a person and see one reason for faith in him, do not call him a Kafir. In this regard, our position is what Imam Ghazali has stated in his book "Al-Ihtidhar." He says, Imam Ghazali says in "Al-Ihtidhar": If a person believes that it is permissible for a messenger to be sent after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) because the Hadith "La Nabiyya Ba'di" (no prophet after me) and God Almighty's saying "Khatam an-Nabiyyin" (seal of the prophets) are presented as reasons for its impermissibility. It is possible (that person says it is possible) that in the Hadith, the meaning of "Nabi" (prophet) is in contrast to "Rasul" (messenger), and "Nabiyyin" refers to prophets of great determination, meaning that no prophet of great determination will come after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), but it does not negate the coming of general prophets. (This is one interpretation he makes, one explanation he gives.) If it is said that the word "Nabiyyin" is general, then the answer he gives is that the specification of the general is also possible. To invalidate this type of interpretation in terms of words (Imam Ghazali says) is impermissible because the words are clearly indicating it. Moreover, in the verses of the Holy Quran, such far-fetched interpretations are used, which are more distant than these interpretations. Yes, the refutation of that person can be done in this way: We have learned from consensus and various indications that "La Nabiyya Ba'di" proves that the door of prophethood and messengership is closed forever after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORE GROUP OF EGATION 1553 has been done, and Khatam-un-Nabiyeen also means absolute prophets. In short, we certainly know that there is no room for any kind of interpretation or specification in these words. This proves that this person is also only a denier of consensus, and regarding the denier of consensus, their point of view is that disbelief is not necessarily required by denying consensus." Otherwise, anyone who claims prophethood, this will become such a difficult issue that you have stated that the claimant of prophethood is a liar. Who will decide this? Mirza Sahib's religion is very clear about this that we consider the claimant of prophethood to be a disbeliever and a liar." Mr. Macnie Bakhtiar: I asked you a question that the person who claims prophethood, has become a disbeliever, and then does not remain a Muslim? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I have submitted. I have placed Mirza Sahib's words themselves before you. Can such an unfortunate fabricator who himself claims messengership and prophethood, have faith in the Holy Quran." Mr. Macnie Bakhtiar: Whose reference is this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is Mirza Sahib's book, sir. Anjam Atham, its page 27, in its footnote, you state: "Can such an unfortunate fabricator who himself claims messengership and prophethood, have faith in the Holy Quran. And can such a person who has faith in the Holy Quran and the verse "But the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets" believes it to be the word of God, can he say that I am also a messenger and prophet after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)." This. 1554 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have stated that correctly. I was only asking that if someone claims that "I am a prophet and messenger after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him)," then in your opinion, will that person be considered a Kafir (infidel) or not, and will those who believe in him be considered Kafirs or not? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Regarding Kufr (infidelity), the basis of Kufr is the denial of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). I have already presented my point of view that the basis of Kufr is the denial of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and interpretation cannot lead to Kufr. If someone interprets it, it cannot lead to Kufr, nor is its being a cause of Kufr proven from anywhere. This is the religion of Imam Ghazali. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Maulana (respected scholar)! I ask you another question. If a person believes in the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), calls himself a Muslim, but says: "I do not believe in any of the other prophets, as many as are mentioned in the Quran; they were all liars," then in your opinion, is that person still a Muslim, not a Kafir? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, yes, I had mentioned that he falls into the category of "Kufr Doon Kufr" (lesser infidelity). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But the thing is that if there is even one good quality of Islam in him... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he is still not a Kafir; he is within the realm of Islam. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: He is a true Kafir; this is "Kufr Doon Kufr." I had mentioned that there are two conditions, two statuses, of "Kufr." One type of Kufr is such that he is definitely a Kafir, but he is not excluded from the realm of Islam. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1555 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The second Kufr is the one which is Kufr-e-Haqeeqi. Which is, denial of La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he is not denying. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is what I have submitted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He will come under the ambit of Kufr-e-Doon-e-Kufr. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The person who…the Holy Prophet (PBUH)… Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Acknowledges the messengership. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Acknowledges, but not the other prophets. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And does not acknowledge the other prophets, then we will say that he has come under the ambit of Kufr-e-Doon-e-Kufr. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Absolutely a Kaafir? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Kufr-e-Doon-e-Kufr. Kufr-e-Doon-e-Kufr is a… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Smaller category? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Smaller category? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has become a sinner, not a Kaafir? 1556 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [221] Adjourned. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In the smaller category. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if someone claims prophethood, in your opinion, and says that I am an Ummah, then he will also be a sinner, not an infidel? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I had submitted, I just quoted Mirza Sahib. that according to us, no person can become a Muslim and make this claim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he does, I am saying to you that if he claims... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will give you an example. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he claims, then will he be an infidel or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I would like to submit in this regard, I would like to say that Hazrat Imam Shafi'i says that: Hazrat Umar... Regarding Hazrat Umar, this report reached him that this person is not a Muslim at heart, only Muslim in appearance. Hazrat Umar asked him whether this is correct, this The report that has reached you is true that you have become a Muslim in appearance. and not a Muslim in reality. Your purpose in converting to Islam is only to obtain Islamic get the rights. In response, he asked Hazrat Umar (RA) that Huzoor! A person came to Hazrat Umar...a person's... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1557 Did Islam deprive those who outwardly accept Islam of their rights, and has Islam not left any path open for them? Hazrat Umar replied that Islam has left a path open for these people as well. And then after that, you became silent." "This is Kitab al-Umm," the book of Hazrat Imam Shafi'i; this subject is described in its sixth volume. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then you go into another category, that a person is a hypocrite, yet he becomes a Muslim, who is not from the heart. So, he is a hypocrite of this kind. I ask you a question: a person with good intentions, with honest intentions, understands, believes honestly, that he is a prophet and a follower. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And considers himself a prophet, not dishonestly. He himself is convinced. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That prophets can come. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), despite this Hadith, despite the verses of the Quran, he believes that prophets can come, and he is a prophet and a follower, and he claims prophethood. Is he a sinner in your eyes, not an infidel? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I would like to submit, sir, you have stated that one is a follower and he claims prophethood. In my view, "follower" is the person who... 1558 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Every follower is subject to the Sharia of Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. This is what "Ummi" means. "Ummi" and "Nabi" (Prophet) are two completely contradictory terms. It's like someone saying, "This is both day and night." To be a follower, to claim to be a slave of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and at the same time to claim to be a prophet, these are two contradictory things, they cannot be together. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If it happens, a person... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I mean, my request... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib! I ask you another question. A person recites the Kalima (declaration of faith): "There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah" and claims prophethood... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: So, we have stated that in our view this is intellectually impossible. Either he is not claiming prophethood or he is not a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If Musaylima who... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Musaylima the Liar... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: One of the two things was true. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What was the position of Musaylima the Liar? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, Musaylima the Liar... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He used to recite the Kalima and also claimed prophethood. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, I submit, Musaylima the Liar... Mr. Speaker, sir! The position of Musaylima the Liar was that he did so during the time of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, not for any religious reason, but for a political purpose, purely political. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1559 accepted with the purpose and came and said that "Sir! I accept you, you divide half the country, accept my rule over the other half." You said that this is wrong. This was not a political matter at all. After that he revolted against the Islamic government during the time of Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him). That is not just a matter of belief. Initially, his imagination was to occupy a part of a country, and for that he revolted, against which Hazrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) had to send Islamic armies against him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was he declared a Kafir (infidel)? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was a Kalima-reciter declared a Kafir? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I submit that this attack was not due to declaring him a Kafir, this attack was due to his revolt... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I understand that, but I am asking whether he was declared a Kafir? Was he declared a liar? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, "Kazzab" is his name. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's what I said, Kazzab, liar, a liar. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Who? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Kazzab" means, it means liar. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes sir, Kazzab. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that person, despite reciting the Kalima... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. 1560 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only God knows the state of the heart. You yourself said that Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said that there is room in Islam for such people who are not Muslims at heart, but become Muslims due to political reasons, there is room for them too. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely, I presented this saying of Hazrat Umar (may Allah be pleased with him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So, Musaylima was still a Muslim, why are you calling him a liar? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: There is a big difference between being a liar and being an infidel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was not an infidel? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was not considered an infidel? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He is a liar. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir, wasn't he considered an infidel? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is Musaylima considered an infidel in the eyes of Muslims or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I think I may not be making my point clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My request is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please answer this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That Musaylima's claim, you see, his claim is not what is being stated. His claim is that he has brought a legislative prophethood. The order of the Holy Quran... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1561 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's a different matter. Look, Maulana! Now you have gone into legislative and non-legislative. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I am clarifying the position of Musaylimah al-Kadhdhāb. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say that he was a Kalima reciter. After that, he claimed prophethood. It is another thing what category of prophethood it was... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Whose heat was not his... Did he claim? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that he claimed prophethood. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And he was a Kalima reciter. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He used to say it with his mouth. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That I am a Kalima reciter. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he became a follower. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And claimed prophethood. Do Muslims consider him a disbeliever or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Listen to my request. (Pause) 1562 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 I submitted that someone who understands the reality of Kalma, the reality of La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadur Rasoolullah, no Kalma reciter can claim prophethood. This is a collective contradiction. To be a follower and also claim prophethood, these two things cannot happen together. This was my first request. Then I had mentioned, giving this reference of Mirza Sahib: "Can such a wretched liar who himself claims messengership and prophethood, have faith in the Holy Quran?" Such a person cannot. And can a person who has faith in the Holy Quran and believes the verse: (Arabic) to be the word of God, can he say that I am also a messenger and prophet after the Holy Prophet (PBUH)." From this, our point of view becomes clear that we do not believe in any categories of prophethood, that if this type of prophethood happens, then it is fine, and if this type happens, then it is not fine. For us, absolutely any kind of prophethood, legislative, non-legislative, follower, representative, shadow, these are not categories of prophethood for us. That is why we do not say this about Musaylimah Kazzab. In our opinion, that person, his claim is that he claimed real prophethood against the Holy Prophet (PBUH), and legalized alcohol and adultery, and even abolished the obligation of prayer, wrote surahs in comparison to the Holy Quran, and in this way, he brought some corrupt people under his control, so in this regard, that person is considered a disbeliever because of which I had said those words to you that we consider the claimant of prophethood to be a disbeliever and a liar. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1563 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana. 1. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: ... Because he is a claimant to prophethood, therefore we consider him a disbeliever and a liar. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was a claimant to prophethood, that is why you consider him a disbeliever, a liar? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So if... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Because he was a claimant to prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if someone makes a claim today... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It will be a false claim... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From our point of view, from the Muslims' point of view... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He will be a liar. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then, is he a disbeliever or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Regarding this, I think that if we talk about the matter in a completely clear way, then perhaps my point of view will become clearer, whether there is such an example or is this a hypothetical question? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking about a general principle first, from you. 1564 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Look, because we have a principle, as Muslims, that no prophet can come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is our principle that no prophet can come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have said that our principle is that no prophet can come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whoever claims it will be a liar. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He will be a false claimant of prophethood, a liar. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Exactly. -Hundred percent (✓ Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Exactly. We have used the word, Mirza Sahib... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those who don't believe in him, no. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They will also be infidels then? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Those who also believe in him? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those who believe in him, those who believe in a liar, no? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That's what I submit, that due to the word "prophet," infidelity is not necessarily applied to anyone among the scholars of the Ummah; infidelity is not necessarily applied to any person due to the word "prophet." Infidelity is applied... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1565 is behind the fact that he denies the Quran, he brings a new Sharia, he claims to have received direct prophethood... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar Maulana! You are going into detail. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I, I mean it won't be clear without it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, you are clarifying very well. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you are going into more detail. I want those basic principles to be settled first, because until they are settled, it will be difficult to ask further questions. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I think Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, I submitted that a man who makes a false claim of prophethood? He becomes a Kafir, will his followers not be Kafirs, will those who call a Kafir a prophet not be Kafirs? You said you will tell the details and reasons later. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, not the reasons, I am submitting, I am submitting that the fatwa of Kufr will not be applied to the use of the word Nabi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not talking about the use of the word "Nabi", those "Buruzi", "metaphorical" things come up, which you will explain in detail about Mr. Mirza. Seats, I am talking in general that if a person says that "I am a prophet, I am a messenger..." 15 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted, didn't I, that I will ask him what is the concept of prophethood in your mind? 1566 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 27th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he says I am a prophet, I am a messenger. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is conceivable, isn't it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Leave the metaphorical talk. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, not "metaphorical." I am asking, I am asking that he uses an Arabic word, you are using an Arabic word, I should know. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says that revelation is coming to me from Allah and that revelation is as pure as the revelation that came to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And I am a prophet and I am a messenger." There is a person who says this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So what would you say about him? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit, the scholars of the Ummah have used the word "Nabi" (prophet) even for a non-prophet. The scholars of the Ummah have (used it for) a non-messenger... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if he... you see that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, that word "Hi" (only/indeed) is present. Look, when I say this, you want me to say that I will say that the one who uses the word "Nabi" has become an infidel, whereas this is not its implication in my opinion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Tell me one more thing. I'll come directly to the point now. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, that is the correct way. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1307 are you? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't consider Mirza Sahib a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And your disagreement with the Rabwah party is that they consider him a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Not like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, you have... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Not like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You stated in the beginning that if this is not the disagreement, then there is no disagreement at all. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, there is a disagreement. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so this is it, that they... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Not us, them, we do not believe in any kind of prophethood. They interpret it in a certain way. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: They explain it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, even you, Maulana! You also agree that if they say he is a reflection, metaphorical, poetic, if poetry comes in between, you say that he has used such words, but he is not a real prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He is a non-prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, he is a non-prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. 1568 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 27th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no difference between this meaning and your meaning, which the people of Rabwah use. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is as far as I understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, you would know, you would know more than us. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have differences. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You debated with them for ten days. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You would know more. What I want to submit... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have been debating with them for seventy (70) years, I have only debated for ten days. You tell me that they also consider him a prophet, and you also say that he is a prophet of some kind, but not a Sharia prophet, but a "Buruzi" (reflectionary) one, and the words he has used, are actually such words that do not mean prophet to them. You say this, but they have used this word in some other sense, in the sense of saints, in the sense of "Muhaddith" (narrator of Hadith). You say that these words "Prophet" have been used. In what sense do they say it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: May I submit to you... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is the difference? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is a very high-level question, which I think will solve the whole problem. 1569 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Two definitions of "Prophet" are prevalent in the Ummah; two interpretations of the word "Prophet" are prevalent in the Ummah. One interpretation is that a Prophet is one who brings a new Sharia; a Prophet is one who attains a station of closeness to Allah directly; a Prophet is one who abrogates the previous Sharia or some of its rulings. This is one interpretation of "Prophet." Another interpretation of "Prophet" is also prevalent. That interpretation is that the one with whom God Almighty converses frequently is a Prophet. These are two separate... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This has become un-Islamic. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Islamic and un-Islamic. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Not Islamic and un-Islamic. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Rather, there are two separate definitions of prophethood, not categories. I am submitting, I am submitting two definitions of "Prophethood." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: One definition of "Prophethood" is that it is a legislative prophet who brings a Sharia. The other is that he does not bring a Sharia, nor does he abrogate the previous Sharia, nor does he go out of the servitude of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, may God bless him and grant him peace. Rather, because God Almighty converses with him due to his being in the servitude of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, may God bless him and grant him peace, he is also called a Prophet. These are the two definitions of "Prophet." Therefore, when you ask me this... 1570 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 They ask, if someone claims prophethood or believes in a prophet, tell us, are they considered a disbeliever or not? Since there are two definitions of "Ummah" before me, I would like to ask you in what context you are using them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will further clarify my point. I see two types of prophets: Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) and Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) was a prophet with a divine law. And as far as I know, that was not the case with Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). Is that correct? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It's not correct in the sense that the prophethood of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) was directly bestowed upon him, not as a result of following Prophet Moses (peace be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He wasn't from his Ummah? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He wasn't from Moses' Ummah? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, that's the difference. That's why I said that one definition of a prophet is that they receive the blessing directly. Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) received that blessing directly, not as a result of following someone. Therefore, I request again that the discussion of legislative and non-legislative prophets is not relevant. From our point of view, according to us, two definitions of "Prophet" are prevalent. Two definitions of "Prophet" exist in Islamic literature. Two definitions of "Prophet" exist in Mirza Sahib's literature. The point is, when you say that someone claims prophethood, will they be considered a disbeliever or not? I would like to request you to tell me which definition of "Prophet" are they using. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1571 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: First, I will ask you if there is any Hadith in which the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said that "Thirty (30) liars will be born in my Ummah. Each one will claim to be a prophet, even though I am the Seal of the Prophets and there will be no prophet after me?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It refers to the definition of "Prophethood" that I mentioned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I said, will there be liars in the Ummah? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Certainly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, such claimants will come, you say that the question of an Ummah member also being a prophet does not arise. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I mentioned Musaylima the Liar, that he also had to bring Sharia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, there is no talk of Sharia. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. He claimed that a new Sharia was revealed to him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in a Hadith, look Maulana! They say "in my Ummah". Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning they are members of the Ummah. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, they are liars. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thirty (30) liars will be born. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, that's right. 1572 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So if a liar is born who says, "I am not a law-bearer, a follower." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And claims prophethood. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, so in response, I submitted that since this is an Arabic word, there will be a need for clarification regarding the meanings in which he calls himself a prophet, this person who says "I am a prophet". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, does it mean that if he says it in certain meanings, he is allowed to? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes, definitely allowed, because the followers themselves have said this about the saints. Look, I am... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right, I understand. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand. So if a person says, "I am a prophet," in the sense that I receive inspiration from Allah, revelation comes to me, I have no law of my own. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, and what comes to me is a result of devotion to the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so this prophet is fine? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is not a prophet, it's fine, I submitted that the definition of "prophet" needs to be given. In my opinion, the true definition of "prophet" is that... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1573 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to you, he is not a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, according to my definition of "Nabi". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Despite him saying that he is a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, this is not the real definition of prophethood, he will not be a prophet, this is our belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just now, Mirza Sahib has stated this in "Haqiqat-ul-Wahi", let me read page 30, then you can see for yourself, in the footnote. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "At this point, the question may naturally arise that many prophets have passed away in the community of Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him). In this case, it is necessary to consider Musa superior. The answer to this is that all the prophets who have passed away were directly chosen by God. Hazrat Musa had no part in it. But in this community, due to the blessing of following the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), thousands of saints have emerged. And there was also one who is both a follower and a prophet." So, do you understand that he is saying "both a follower and a prophet." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is according to its true meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, isn't this claim of being a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now I draw your attention to some... 1574 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Allow me a word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: ... so I will recite Mirza Sahib's own words: "I have repeatedly submitted to you that the meaning of 'Prophet' and 'Follower' are distinct. So when he writes that I am a prophet and a follower, then Mirza Sahib himself states that the meaning of 'Prophet' and 'Follower' are distinct, therefore we will have to see in what sense the word "Prophet" is used there, the meaning of "Follower" is quite clear. The word "Prophet" in the sense of 'saint', in the sense of 'reformer', in the sense of relationship with Allah, in the sense of divine revelation." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana, the question has now become very clear that even if you call him a prophet, it is in the sense of a reformer. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So in what sense do the people of Rabwah say it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Alright, I will submit regarding this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because the same words of Mirza Sahib are in front of you, the same are in front of them, the same writings are in front of you, the same are in front of them. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My submission is that it is mentioned in the Hadith that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or it could also be that there are contradictory writings, you depend on one, they rely on the other... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or is that not the case? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1575 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My submission is that this is absolutely, absolutely, I present the summary of my life's study, that there is no contradiction in Mirza Sahib's writings about prophethood from beginning to end. The position he adopted on the first day, the same position was maintained by him until his death on May 26, 1908, and the writing that was published in Akhbar-e-Aam on the day of his death, in that writing also, you adopted the same position that you used in Izala Auham or before that in "Tauzeeh-e-Maram," etc. To say that at such and such time you did not claim, then you made some changes in it, some evolution took place, after reading something you started some claims, my submission in this regard is that our position is that absolutely there has been no evolution, no contradiction, no change. The position that was there on the first day that "I, God Almighty, Glory be to Him, He speaks to me," was the same position on the last day. The definition of prophethood that some people call him a shadow and reflection prophet, which is not the definition of prophethood, the same position he adopted on the last day as well. So as far as we are concerned, we do not consider any contradiction, any difference, any change, or any kind of evolution in Mirza Sahib's writings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now you have not clarified in what sense, in what meaning, in what sense the people of Rabwah consider him a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is more appropriate that this question about someone's beliefs should be asked directly from them. This is our fundamental... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, look, this is such a question that you are not interfering in someone's personal matter... 1576 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a question of the entire nation... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That a group rises up and says that Mr. Mirza (Peace be upon him) was a prophet. You say "No," in the sense that you call someone a prophet, there were no two prophets in that sense, we have a disagreement with you." In what sense did they take it when you had a disagreement? And if there is a difference between that meaning and your meaning, then those who consider him a prophet in that sense, are they infidels or not? This is the question. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My request was this, I was submitting that we want to request to the honorable members that putting the matter of the beliefs of any person or any sect or any group in the hands of another is a completely wrong stance. No matter how much research I have done, no matter how clear I am in my place, but I do not have the right to judge the beliefs of another, that his belief... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Maulana! You did not understand my point. This nation is facing a very big problem here. You do admit that no one wanted to get into these matters, to get into disputes. But the Assembly is compelled to face this question and a solution has to be found for it and you can help the Assembly in this, because of your knowledge, because of your experience. I am not saying that you declare them infidels, nor am I saying that you do not declare them infidels. I am asking a question that there are differences between you and them and you yourself have stated that you are against the interpretation of the question of "Prophet" that they are making. So, I submit, according to the meaning they give to the prophethood of Mr. Mirza (Peace be upon him), do those people remain Muslims or not in your opinion? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1577 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My request is, sir, that I have submitted that it would be a great misfortune for our country if we start deciding people's beliefs by accepting someone else's interpretation instead of listening to their statements about their beliefs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no one is accepting, sir. The only thing is that the Assembly has to ask for perspectives from all sides, has to observe. It is also reading on its own, also thinking on its own, it has also seen books. They have not only listened to the Rabwah delegation. Other scholars are also present, their point of view is also before them. Your point of view will also be before them, then they will be able to reach some conclusion as to why you have so many differences, what is the reason? If he is also a prophet who is in another sense, who is of the Ummah, not that it means he is a Muhaddith, and if they also understand it that way, then you should not have any differences... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If there is some difference, then tell us the details, on the basis of that difference, do you still consider them Muslims here or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit that I had requested that the requirement for the betterment of this country is that I request from you that if this path is opened that instead of listening to the beliefs of another party from them or deciding on it, if it is based on the explanations and clarifications of others and on the studies of others, then many difficulties will arise from it. And these are the same difficulties because of which, which I had submitted in the beginning, that the door of excommunication opens. The next person, who knows what interpretation he makes, what explanation he gives. In my opinion, his position... 1578 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana Sahib! I am speaking plainly. If I ask you, "Are the Parsees infidels or not?" What will you say? That we are all Pakistanis, and you don't want to say anything about it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, you don't ask that. You ask, "What are the beliefs of the Parsees?" That is your question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you what it means... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You should ask them about their beliefs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Why are you asking me about their beliefs? Ask me about my beliefs, ask them about their beliefs, and then you decide. I am not in favor of Zaid deciding my beliefs and Bakr deciding Zaid's beliefs. You should make a law regarding beliefs, I would request, that you take a declaration from each sect about what they consider their beliefs to be. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, who decided about Musaylima al-Kadhdhāb? Did he decide himself, or did someone else? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I didn't understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A person falsely claims prophethood... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, is it left to him to decide whether he is telling the truth or lying? Or will someone talk about it, will someone think about what he is saying? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1579 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My request was that the person who claims. There is no argument about falsehood and truth, absolutely no argument about whether a person's claim is true or false, a person who claims prophethood, we don't have to get into falsehood or truth... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's right, you are saying correctly. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That claimant of prophethood, if he is, then he is an infidel and a liar. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And those who believe in him are also infidels? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: We have not seen that we are also on his beliefs. ...are not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, okay, I was talking in principle, that's why, because I was talking in principle, I say yes or no. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That you do. So those who believe in him, will they also be infidels, the one who claims prophethood? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My request again is that regarding prophethood, I will repeat the same question that the word "prophethood" is used by some people in some other meanings as well. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana! One thing has become very clear that you have told the types of prophethood... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no, I didn't tell the types. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Two definitions? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no, I didn't tell two definitions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Didn't you tell two definitions? 1580 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Which is the definition of a true prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And there is a definition of a non-prophet, for which the word "Bi" is used. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is. In that sense, do you call Mirza Sahib a prophet or does he call himself? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the sense of a non-true prophet... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, that I submit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Do you call him that the word he used, since he is not a true prophet, is in the sense of Muhaddith? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And how do they write prophet, in the real sense or in the sense of Muhaddith? In what sense? Because you have a disagreement, that's why I say. You Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I submit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From this, you say that "I do not answer." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because there are two (2) parties, both followers of Mirza Sahib, in one sense or another, you say that we have a major fundamental disagreement, this disagreement was not from the election because who becomes the Caliph, who does not, so in CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1581 Therefore, it becomes a very important question for you that what was your disagreement regarding the Prophet, in what sense do you consider him a prophet that you had a disagreement? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will explain that. I had submitted that two (2) types of definitions are prevalent. I had also submitted that these two types of definitions do not mean there are two (2) types of prophets. One is its real definition. Just as a lion is an animal, the word "lion" is about that one beast, but sometimes we call a brave person a lion. We will not say that now there are two (2) definitions of "lion". The definition of "lion" is the same. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, tell me this now, Maulana! If that lion is not a real lion? He says, look! My face is like a lion. My claws are like a lion. My teeth are like a lion. I am exactly like a lion, and I am a lion, and I have the qualities of a lion. What would you say about him? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is absolutely correct, this is our point of view, if he says that "I am a lion, I have claws, I am a beast, I am that," then we will take the same step that I submitted that after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), whoever claims to be a prophet is a disbeliever and a liar. But it will not be a matter of the word "Prophet" there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am talking about the lion. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, exactly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is a real lion. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Those characteristics 1584 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I have submitted that the only difference I see between them and Moses (peace be upon him) is that they adopted a large part of the law of Moses (peace be upon him) that was given to the Messiah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also adopted it. This is the question. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, that is the word of Allah. They made mistakes in it; the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) corrected it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, it is not like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That they took something from the Torah and the Bible. Whatever was adopted, Allah Almighty gave it directly to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not saying that the same message that Allah sent to them, Allah sent the same message here. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, that is not it; there is a difference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They made the difference, not in Allah's message. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, there is a difference. Many things in the Sharia were not given to the former ones. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, that is correct. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1585 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He is the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But this means that both received the message from Allah. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, on this... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Both received it directly... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, did Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, receive a message? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Received it directly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if any other person also receives such messages? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he will also be a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That's why he is a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now tell me, we were just talking about the lion, the real lion, and the fake lion. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, a real prophet and a person who claims to be... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, not a fake lion and a real lion, but the real use of the word "lion" and its metaphorical use. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I mean, like "Lion of Punjab" and "Lion of Bengal." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Absolutely, absolutely. 1586 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar and those who are there, let's leave them alone. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because there is no difference between them. Yes, no, that, that's not what I am talking about. But when you look at something, you see what is this thing like? That this thing is a glass. So, you ask what are the qualities of a glass? It will have a shape in which you can pour water or something. It could be a big size, a small size, one shape, another shape, made of glass, or something else, it becomes a glass. A prophet is also a human being, a Muhaddith is also a human being. These two common factors come at the beginning. After that they say that revelation descends from Allah onto the Prophet, revelation descends from Allah onto the Prophet. And a person whom you call a Muhaddith says that revelation descends from Allah onto me too. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, there is a big difference between the two. Mirza Sahib... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was not talking about Mirza Sahib. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Right now, I am not talking about Mirza Sahib, I am talking in general. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I understand that there are many types of revelation. There is one revelation, which is called "Wahi Matloob" like "Wahi Quran". This is specific to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and the door to this type of revelation is closed until the Day of Judgment. Neither can anyone have this type of inspiration, nor can there be revelation. Which is called Wahi Nabuwat, this is not, this door is closed. We absolutely do not believe that Mirza Sahib also received the same revelation and had the same quality and had the same status, and had the same rank as the Holy Prophet (PBUH), absolutely not. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1587 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I don't want to go into that detail first. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Daughter. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I wanted to ask you that when you say there are two people. One is Muhaddis, Mujaddid, Awliya, a good man, a human being, and one is the Prophet of Allah. You see, can revelation descend upon both of them, do you say this? Hmm. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, that is what I submitted, the revelation of prophethood cannot come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The revelation of prophethood cannot come? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes, it cannot, absolutely cannot. I submit Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I was asking so that if Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, the revelation of prophethood cannot come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if a person says that the revelation of prophethood has come to me. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Then he will become a claimant of prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will become. Just then I will Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Will absolutely become a prophet. I have just one request. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Please allow me, Mirza Sahib says: "Even if the descent of revelation is assumed to be only once and only one sentence Hazrat Jibril (peace be upon him) brings and then remains silent, this matter also ends the prophethood. 1588 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27th, 1974) is contrary because when the seal of the Finality of Prophethood is broken and the revelation of prophethood starts being revealed again, then whether it is revealed a little or a lot, it is the same. Every wise person can understand that if God is the Truthful One and the promise is given in the verse "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" (Seal of the Prophets) and it is explained in detail in the Hadiths that Gabriel (peace be upon him) has been forbidden from bringing the revelation of prophethood forever after the death of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), then all these things are true and correct. We consider even a single sentence of the revelation of prophethood to be contrary to the Finality of Prophethood. If Gabriel brings a sentence of the revelation of prophethood and reveals it to someone and that person says that it is revealed to him, we will say that person is a claimant of prophethood and we do not believe in the arrival of even a single sentence after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, now tell me what was the purpose of Mirza Sahib forming his own group and asking people to pledge allegiance to him? Was it to create a separate Ummah or to create another sect of Muslims or was it just a group to serve? What... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, my submission is that the purpose of Mirza Sahib forming this group was definitely not to create a new Ummah, from this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And to create a sect. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Of Muslims? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It was not to create something within the Muslims that would open the door to division among Muslims and declaring each other as infidels. I will present those conditions before you, from which you will be able to judge for yourself what was the purpose of Mirza Sahib forming this group. In one place, you say that: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1589 The purpose of forming this group is twofold. One purpose is that a relationship with Allah Almighty be established. A person becomes virtuous. A person becomes capable of following the example of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Services to the Holy Quran, the teaching of the Holy Quran, that person should fully apply it to himself and become a true servant, a true follower, and a true obedient of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. And the second purpose of my establishing this group is so that Islam may be spread in the world, the world may be illuminated by the light of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and those who have not yet come into the fold of Islam, who do not come into the servitude of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, who are unaware of "La ilaha illallah," who do not know Tawhid (Oneness of God), who do not know Prophethood, who do not know the Quran, those people should be brought into the fold of Islam." "Therefore, Maulana Sahib will confirm my statement; he went to Europe. First, he went to England, then he went to Germany. You can take their testimony that they never presented the prophethood of Mirza Sahib there, nor did they present the existence of Mirza Sahib in such a way that he is an independent kind of person who has nothing to do with the servitude of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. We go there to make Muslims." "And besides this, sir! Now I had mentioned to you that I took the oath of allegiance..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Yes, sir, we have read it." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Yes, there are ten conditions of allegiance." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "We have seen the ten conditions." 1590 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27th, 1974) I will draw the attention of Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar to this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We have seen that, sir, we have seen that, it has come on record. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, I will only draw your attention to this one thing. Maulana Sadruddin: Sahibzada Sahib had said something about me. I have been to England twice and have converted many Englishmen to Islam, but I have never mentioned Hazrat Mirza Sahib even in a private gathering because I do not consider Hazrat Mirza Sahib to be the water of Islam. Muhammad Rasulullah (PBUH) brought Islam... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana... Maulana Sadruddin: I used to preach Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana! Many... Maulana Sadruddin: I never mentioned Mirza Sahib's name at all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Forgive my audacity, but many people think that if you had mentioned him, people would not have become Muslims. People only became Muslims when you mentioned Islam. We... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I was submitting this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But leave that matter. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, in this regard, to understand that if any name other than Islam was taken there, Islam would not have spread, and for this reason we avoided it, we avoided it under a certain expediency, I respectfully submit... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1591 I will say that this incident is not correct. We absolutely...we went abroad for the first time in 191. First of all, we established our first mission in England in 1913, in Birmingham. Khawaja Kamaluddin Sahib's beliefs, his speeches, are not hidden. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Not under any expediency. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are right in saying that. Was Khawaja Sahib planning to go once during Mirza Sahib's lifetime, that he would go...? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, I mentioned 1913. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mirza Sahib passed away in 1908. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Before that, there was a plan to send someone, earlier in Mirza Sahib's lifetime. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Not Khawaja Sahib, but some people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so at that time when they were told that Mirza Sahib should not be mentioned, they said then the task will not succeed. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I am submitting. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did something like that happen or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, there was a Maulvi Insha Allah Sahib from Lahore, he said that we will give you financial assistance, we will send you on a mission abroad... 1592 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 27, 1924 Establish it, and in this way, we and you together can do the work of spreading religion. Now, if that had been the case, as you said, then we should have accepted that offer at that time. We would have received financial assistance, we would have gained fame, and paths would have opened for us. We refused it. Why? It became clear that neither was gaining cheap fame our objective, nor was taking money our goal. What was the reason that we refused it? That incident is a hidden incident, it is not secret. The debate is present in the files of "Review." We said this because they said, "Sir, do not present there the interpretation of the Quran that Mirza Sahib gave you. Present the interpretation that we tell you." So, it was a strange thing that we consider a person to be a confidant of God, we believe about him that God guides him, he knows the wisdom of the Holy Quran, he gives such details and interpretations of the Holy Quran that are not found elsewhere, and we set out with the promise that we will not present his name there! What I have submitted is this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, what you are saying, did Mirza Sahib object to this, or did someone else object? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is an incident from Mirza Sahib's lifetime. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He himself objected that... I said that Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This conversation was not going on with him like this, this conversation was between Khawaja Sahib, Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib, and Maulvi Insha Allah Khan Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And Khawaja Sahib and Maulana Muhammad Ali were happy with this matter? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1593 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, Sir. Maulana Sahib's printed statement is available. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That we... for this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Incidentally, I asked a question. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. So, what I was submitting was that we people... the interpretation of the Quran that we understand. I'll give an example, there's no secret in ours. I'll give this example that we do not believe in the advent of any kind of new or old prophet after Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Now, this is our interpretation that some people do not like. Some people say that an old prophet can come, a new one cannot. Now this is a difference between our interpretation and theirs. We will never go there and say that we have gotten four pennies from here, let's go there and say that an old one can come. We will give the interpretation that we understand. And that is that the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was perfectly the Seal of the Prophets, and absolutely every kind of prophethood, no kind of prophethood is possible, that after Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, it continues. That's why we don't talk about new and old there, we announce the end of every kind of prophethood there. What I was submitting was that we people did not present Mirza Sahib as an independent personality there, we did not present Mirza Sahib as such a person after whom new interpretations of disbelief and Islam would come, after whom a new society would begin to be established, after whom a new religion and a new faith and a new community would begin to be established. We never presented this thing there. I was submitting that you said, "Sir! Why did you... Mirza Sahib establish this group?" 1594 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 I submitted that it had two (2) objectives. One was to extract man from evils. The second was to spread it, Islam, in the world. And for that, they had set some conditions of allegiance which are present in your record, you have observed. I only want to draw attention to two (2) things of it. One is what is its purpose? That is, religion and the honor of religion and sympathies. He will consider Islam dearer than his life, his wealth, his honor, his children, and every one of his loved ones. One purpose was this. And these are ten (10) conditions of allegiance, out of which nine (9) things are of the same kind. Only the tenth condition, from which you will get an idea of ​​why we pledged allegiance to Mirza Sahib, why we are associated with Mirza Sahib, in what form we are associated with Mirza Sahib. I will present those words before you. The tenth condition is this: "This humble one (meaning Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib) will establish a bond of brotherhood with this humble one purely for the sake of Allah, with the acknowledgment of known conditions, and will abide by it until death, and in this bond of brotherhood, the brotherhood that exists, in this bond of brotherhood, it will be of such a high level, that its example is not found in worldly relationships and connections and all subservient conditions." This is the purpose of taking allegiance to Mirza Sahib, this is the purpose of Mirza Sahib forming a community, this is the purpose of Mirza Sahib establishing that organization for which you established this community. And for this, as I submitted, they did not take the community towards any kind of dictatorship, but the same consultation that we call, the consultation that we call, "وامرهم شورى بينهم" which is the teaching of the Holy Quran, according to it, they founded an association and the rules and regulations of this association are registered with the Government. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1595 and these are the objectives written in them: propagation of the Quran, propagation of religion, propagation of Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace, and service to Islam, service to mankind, service to education. These are the things that are our aims and objectives, and these are the things around which, because of which, we gathered around Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me ask you a question at a time, then you... All right, I asked you that the purpose of the group you formed was not to create a separate sect, was it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, or to create a sect among Muslims, wasn't it? The sect has become... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The word "sect" is also used in the sense of "group," so I won't say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Because in the census conducted by the government in 1901, they had also included a column for sects, so our technical name, our legal name, with which we present ourselves, I will tell you, it is "Muslim Sect Ahmadiyya." This is the registered name that was adopted for us from the 1901 census. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did Mirza Sahib give you the direction to register your name like this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes, these are Mirza Sahib's words. 1596 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now tell me that Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The Muslim sect Ahmadiyya Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to Mirza Sahib's directions and instructions, What are your social, religious, and sectarian relations with the rest of the Muslims? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: With Muslims, the thing is that as I have mentioned, if we... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: According to those instructions. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, if we had believed from the beginning what Mirza Sahib said, that is, all the Muslims of the country, then perhaps this calamity that we are facing would not have arisen. Mirza Sahib's point of view was, as I have already mentioned, that If a person calls himself a Muslim due to disagreement, then Do not create such disputes that result in religious trouble for you. So, when the differences had increased a lot, I remember an incident from that time, I would like to mention it. Maulana Muhammad Hussain Batalvi was alive at that time, so Mirza Sahib proposed that Look! You people abuse, you people forbid us from going to mosques, If someone from us dies, you don't allow them to be buried in the graveyard, if someone goes to the mosque, you beat them and throw them out, this weakens Islam. Make an agreement with us for seven years, what is that agreement? That you only give us a chance to serve Islam, and then keep an eye on the results. If we do not make Islam extraordinarily victorious in the world and in those areas. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1597 "Wherever the name of Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, has not reached, wherever the name of God has not reached, if we do not bring those areas to the feet of Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and create a great transformation in the world, then you can hold us accountable." This is what Mirza Sahib presented at that time, and we still present it today. We are always ready for it. Your command was that as a result of forming this group, I submitted that as a result of forming it, Ahmadis have never caused any religious division, religious disagreement, religious fighting, or riots. Look at this incident in the entire history. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I didn't say that. Look, I didn't say that Ahmadis rioted. Look, Maulana! I... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You didn't say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was saying that when Mirza Sahib formed his group... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then whether it was a sect or a group, they were doing the work of preaching or considered it their duty, as a result of which Muslims had a very strong reaction, that you say that they were not allowed to be buried in the graveyard, not allowed to go to mosques, they started to persecute Ahmadis in a way, from your point of view. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: A section of people. 1598 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27th, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, but why? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is why, sir... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What was it that Mirza Sahib said that made him so angry? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will explain, sir! The thing is that for someone to get angry, someone to be upset, someone to become so agitated and take such steps, it is absolutely not necessary that the person has committed a terrible act. Such fights have happened in our country because someone said "Ameen aloud," someone raised a finger in Tashahhud, and such minor sectarian differences are all well-known. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Maulana! You are right, I am not saying that. A person says anything in anger and thinks about it later. But this thing has been happening continuously for seventy (70), eighty (80) years. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That there is a very strong reaction against Ahmadis. You are right that all Muslim sects keep calling each other infidels. But this reaction has never happened before: don't lead prayers together, don't do marriages, don't give them shrouds, don't let them be buried. Why did this reaction happen so much? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! I would like to submit with great respect that I am not aware of these two things, nor has there ever been such distress and unrest before 1953. Those incidents were not country-wide, as was investigated in the Munir Inquiry Committee at that time. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1599 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I understand that during Mirza Sahib's time, as far as I have read the circumstances, and I will tell you, whether you agree with them or not, Mirza Sahib could not give a speech anywhere unless there was a great deal of police protection. And the greatest opponents were not Christians and Arya Samajis, but Muslims. Although there was a stage when he was a hero to the Muslims, there was a stage when he debated with the Arya Samajis, answered them, and answered the Christians. So when he made a claim, you understand he didn't, but whatever impression it made on the Muslims, then he said that I am the Mahdi, I am the Promised Messiah, or a prophet, or an ummati prophet." After that, there was a big sharp reaction. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Mr. President, I will request again, these words of Mirza Sahib that you have mentioned, are present in "Tauzeeh Maram," which is among his very early writings, that is, the book after "Barahin Ahmadiyya." To say that Mirza Sahib did not say such things at that time, he did say these things at that time. Secondly, you said that he was never allowed to speak, he could not come in public. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, he was allowed, but with a lot of police protection. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, sir, I, I dare to disagree with that. I will put before you the details of your two (2) journeys. Mirza Sahib traveled to Jhelum probably in 1904. No army, no police, no... 1600 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August 1972 protection There is no gathering of Mirza Sahib's followers, nothing at all. Mirza Sahib comes, and a thousand or two thousand people gather around him and listen to him and appreciate him. So, to say that he never met anyone is not a fact. What I have submitted... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It may have happened sometime, but not usually. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I am mentioning an incident. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will mention another incident in Sialkot. I will mention a third incident in Lahore. An article of yours was read in which Mirza Sahib himself was present, which was published in many languages of the world on the philosophy of Islamic principles. It was read, and the moderator of that time, the president of that time, the people who were present in it, the representatives of the newspapers who were present at that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, we know about this, sir. You are talking about 1896. I am not talking about that time, I will give you references to where, even in Lahore, how much police was present at that meeting when they brought him there, how much was present in Amritsar, how much was present in Sialkot. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, this is just one incident in Delhi in which Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, that's another matter. You give me... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That's another matter, that was in the form of a debate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We will have...... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. So... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......break? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I was submitting that Mirza Sahib... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are still... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: It is not necessary. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Later, then later. Madam Acting Chairman: We will take a break now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let's break for lunch. Madam Acting Chairman: Then come at half past five. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Half past five, half past five. The Delegation..... 1601 Madam Acting Chairman: The Delegation is allowed to leave. You will have to come at 5:30 p.m. Book? Is it yours? Yes. Close the doors. Yes, leave it. No, you can go. Members are requested to keep sitting. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Madam Acting Chairman: Does the Attorney-General have to say anything? Does any member want to say something? NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 [The Special Committee adjourned for lunch break to meet at 5:30 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after lunch break, Madam Acting Chairman (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi) in the Chair.] Madam Acting Chairman: Yes, call them in. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Madam Acting Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I was asking you that wherever Mirza Sahib went to give a lecture, there was strong opposition, and why was there strong opposition to someone who did not claim prophethood and there was no misunderstanding about it? You said that no, there was opposition only once when he went to Delhi. There was no opposition in other places. And he could only address the meeting under police protection, and he rarely addressed a meeting where there was no police protection. Then you said that he went to Jhelum. He did not go to Jhelum to give any meeting or lecture, he went in connection with the case. He did not give any lecture there. As far as Lahore is concerned, you said that he gave a lecture in 1896. He himself was not present in that lecture. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He was present. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, according to the record I have, he was not there, he was not there. His lecture was read out from there. He was present in another lecture, maybe you are referring to that... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1603 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: The Lahore lecture, under the name "Lecture Lahore." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's another one; he was present in that. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Sahib, he wrote a biography of him: "Ahmed, the Messenger of the latter days" This was written in Urdu. This is its translation. So I am not saying that what he is saying is correct, but he was present at the occasion. And he is describing the scene when he gave the lecture in Lahore. He says: "Since it had been known by experience that wherever he went, people of every religion and sect displayed a keen animosity towards him...." People of every class and religion displayed enmity towards him: "especially the so-called Mussalmans." Especially the so-called Muslims or those who claim to be Muslims: "The police authorities had on the occasion made very admirable arrangements for his safety." Now I will read out those arrangements to you when he was leaving after addressing the gathering, he says: "They had, therefore, taken special precaution to ensure the safety of the promised Messiah on his return journey from the lecture hall. First rode a number of mounted police. Then came the carriage bearing the promised Messiah. This was followed by a member of policemen on foot. After them there rode a number of mounted men. Thereafter walked another party of the policemen. Thus was the Promised Messiah escorted back to his residence with the greatest possible care." 1604 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 So you will see that wherever Mirza Sahib has gone, whether it is Delhi, or Amritsar, in it The situation has been such that wherever he used to give lectures, there would be a lot of police people. And especially they have a complaint to Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Sahib: where Board Chain police officers were not there, the other police officers did not take so much precaution. So I am I was asking you that what was the reason that Muslims were opposing him so much? If You say that he did not claim prophethood, he was a Muhaddith, and there is also There is no doubt that before making the claim, Muslims respected him and he He did a lot of service. But when he claimed to be the Mahdi and the Promised Messiah or the Prophet, then There was so much opposition, and you say that there was no opposition to the claim, nor on it There was no quarrel, there was no doubt on it, it all started after 1913. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: My submission is, I was submitting that when a person If there is opposition, it is not necessary that the reasons for that opposition are created by that person. How have they been taken, and it is also not necessary that he is making such a claim which is not correct. This After that I had submitted that when Mirza Sahib made this claim, then its We have a history, we have a history in front of us. Sir! A reference from a book by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad Sahib is placed before me. I I will humbly submit that I do not consider them worthy in any way. That their words should be trusted or any of their books should be used as a reference. Mr. Kachi Bakhtiar No no, look, Mirza Sahib! That's not what I mean. I said it may be wrong, I said that. And I say that our CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHOKI GROUP DELEGATION 1603 They do not have any other evidence to refute besides this. A person has been present, has been going with his father, he also respected his father. And also says that wherever my father went, people would curse him. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar, I submit that when their father passed away, he was only nineteen (19) years old at most. And when he is narrating this incident, you can estimate what his age would be at that time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no, but even if a child is eight or ten years old, the police, the police party, and other evidence is also found. That when Mirza Sahib used to go for lectures, a lot of police was needed. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: So, I was submitting that the reference that has been given to us, is not an argument. My second submission is that, Your Honor! Hazrat Mirza Sahib was born on February 13, 1835, and after that, he resided in Sialkot from 1826 to 1868. At that time, his position was that Maulana Sirajuddin Sahib, the father of Maulana Zafar Ali Khan of the "Zamindar" newspaper, was also there at that time. The evidence regarding this is that Mirza Sahib led the life of a pious, devout, and religious person. Please allow me, I need to quote a little bit of their history because you have mentioned it. And Shamsul Ulama Maulana Mir Hasan Sahib, the teacher of Allama Iqbal, was there at that time. The testimony he gave about Mirza Sahib's work, was that he was not only a pious, venerable, and virtuous man, but also that he was so concerned about the propagation of Islam that he spent a large portion of his time on the Holy Quran. 1606 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (27th August, 1974 ...spent only on study, or in debates against Christians and others, proving the truth of Islam. After that, from 1880 to 1884, this marks the formal beginning of his writing life, and in it, he wrote his most celebrated book, which contains the most of his inspirations and prophecies. I especially submit to you, sir, that this is the book in which he described many of his inspirations and his revelations. This is where the starting point should be for opposing that person. But what is the reality in comparison? At that time, a very influential leader, Maulana Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi, very strongly—I will not take up too much of your time on this—he praises this book so much and calls it a thirteen-hundred-year achievement. If revelation and inspiration, which Mirza Sahib, as I mentioned, from beginning to end, his stance remained the claim, this is the claim that he presented on the first day, this is the claim that he presented until the last day. This claim is present at that time, revelation and inspiration are happening according to his claim, he is publishing it, but a very great religious scholar is praising it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, look, except for this religious scholar, we have not heard anyone else mentioned. What is the matter? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar, sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The first Rabwah group that came also gave us the reference of Batalvi Sahib, that he praised Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya so much. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have the name of another very great person... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORE GROUP DELEGATION 1607 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I say that we have no doubt about him... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, I will take the name of another great man: Sheikh al-Hadith Maulana Nazir Hussain. Mention. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was also mentioned, he was also mentioned. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Maybe this name too... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, he mentioned it. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: So that's why those people, they also... I'm another person. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that's not the point. Look... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: My point is, if that claim was such that people would erupt from it and from beginning to end as far as our... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, look, Sahibzada Sahib! It's a simple matter, A person writes a book with great effort, it takes four years, four or five of his volumes, in our ordinary country, the Muslims are not educated people. Very few people read. Besides, who will read such a big book? Five will read, ten will read, a hundred will read. So people don't know you. A person issues this advertisement that "I am a prophet." When people realize, "Hey! What happened?" So I am saying this because what happened that suddenly a person also served, I agree with you that against Christians, against Arya Samajis He debated, wrote pamphlets, wrote advertisements, he served and Muslims respected him a lot. were appreciating. And suddenly they became so opposed to him that they were cursing him everywhere. 1608 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 27th August 1974 are falling, why police protection? If that person did not claim to be a prophet, what was the thing that made Muslims so angry? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar, I would like to submit this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say that Muslims were not angry, then it is another matter. If you think that they were not opposed, then it is another matter. If you admit that it started from that time and started with great force... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar, what I am submitting is not that I am mentioning any greatness of his book Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya. That is not my position. My position is that Mirza Sahib's claim from beginning to end was of being inspired by God, of divine dialogue. He came on that claim on the first day, he remained on that claim all his life, and he ended his life on that claim. The purpose of my submission is that if those beliefs, if those claims, if that revelation, if that inspiration, if that divine dialogue which he claimed, was so provocative, then at least the public, you say that the public did not read it, I am mentioning the top scholars of that time, I am mentioning the top leaders, I am mentioning the active party of that time, that those people saw that book and did not ignore it. After seeing that book, they commented on it, after seeing that book, they expressed their views. And I would like to submit that this is the book which was advertised in thousands at that time Estimate the time from 1880 to 1882, at that time this book was published in thousands in English language and published in Urdu language. And its copies, when I had the opportunity to go back there in America and England CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1609 In those days, copies from that time were also kept in the libraries there. So, these things, it is not that this book remained unknown, it is not that the public was unaware of it. From the biggest chieftains to the common man, and from the modestly literate to the greatest scholars, this book has passed before their eyes, and their claim, and inspiration and revelation, is present in it and they have read it, and at that time they did not become provoked. After that, I would like to submit, sir, that in 1893, the largest religious organization of Punjab, Anjuman Himayat-e-Islam, holds a meeting and who do they choose to preside over it? Maulana Nuruddin, the greatest disciple of Mirza Sahib himself. He presides over their meeting, and he gives a commentary on the Holy Quran in it. He gives a very detailed lecture in it. If the issue against them was that these people could not hold any meetings or address the public, and there was such severe opposition to them that their... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, I am talking about Mirza Sahib, you are going to the other side. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I mean, I am talking about Mirza Sahib's life, I am talking about his greatest disciple. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, don't talk about the disciple. It is better if you stick to Mirza Sahib first. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: So even at that time, this group, despite their beliefs, and Mirza Sahib, despite his beliefs, were not declared worthy of being killed and beheaded. 1610 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 27 August 1974 had gone. After that, I submit that in 1896, the World Parliament of Religions took place, in which a paper by Mirza Sahib was read. So, look, if that person's claims were such, if their beliefs were such, then fine, Mirza Sahib may not be there, but Mirza Sahib's paper is being recited, Mirza Sahib's thoughts are being disseminated, Mirza Sahib's own representation of Islam is being given, that is being stated. So, if those thoughts were so intolerable, then what is the reality? The reality is that at that time, the paper was listened to with such interest, such silence, such attention that all the people were full of praise for its excellence. So, can a person be a disbeliever, faithless, holding very bad beliefs, expressing very bad thoughts and claims, and Muslims will listen to their thoughts in this way? To say that they had no representation anywhere, that there was no one to listen to their thoughts... Mr. Chairman Bakhtiar: I asked you this, look, Sahibzada Sahib! Why did they face opposition? Please tell me that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am getting to that point, I am about to submit the same thing. Then comes the era of 1900. A priest, Lefroy, comes from England. He creates a storm of preaching Christianity in Punjab, and he starts a series of lectures, "Zinda Naji Masoom Nahin." Such difficulties arise for the people that then Mirza Sahib is turned to again and it is said that you should confront him. Thus, the person had established his stronghold, which was the church on the Anarkali side of Lohari Darwaza in Lahore, where he started. And after that, this person left from there in such a way... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAMURI URVJUI DELEGA) IUN 1011 He ran away, and Mirza Sahib pursued him to such an extent that he went from there to Karachi, then to Bombay, and finally, he left the country. And he came with the claim that "I will, in a few years, take the Muslims of this subcontinent into the embrace of Christianity (God forbid)." So, those people made Mirza Sahib their representative. Some people said, I confess, sir, that some people said he is an infidel. And this thing was presented by Father Lafrai that sir... Mr. Keky Bakhtiar: Yes, I agree that no one opposed him! Let me ask the next question. I agree that no one opposed him! Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I did not say that no one opposed him. Mr. Keky Bakhtiar: I am asking the next question. If you are going to answer every question like this, it will be very difficult, because we have already heard all these things, Sahibzada Sahib! We have heard every debate, we have heard every argument, we have read every reference of theirs. These fifteen days were spent on this. That's why we didn't want to trouble you. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Because it was secret, we didn't know. Mr. Keky Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this because if this... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I was submitting that this was not my position. Mr. Keky Bakhtiar: His Lahore lectures have come, the rest of the lectures have come, every priest, every Anjam Atham, all the promises that "Abdullah Atham said, we have heard all these stories. 1612 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am not telling those stories, I am telling you my stand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I only asked this question that why was he opposed, if...? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Why was he opposed? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was a hero in that time, suddenly he is opposed... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am going to say something regarding that, Sir! It was not necessary for him to present such a belief for the opposition, as I mentioned that this belief and this position and this status, he had presented it even during the time of "Baraheen". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, I will ask you another question now. I was actually asking about your social relations with the rest of the Muslims. You said that the Ahmadiyya sect is a separate sect and it was recorded as such in the census in 190*. What have been the relations of Ahmadi Muslims with the rest of the Muslims since the time of Mirza Sahib? I am not talking about today that Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Since the time of Mirza Sahib, their relations have been like this that Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Sahib, the eldest son of Mirza Sahib, the first marriage that took place, He had two daughters of his father, one of them was married to Mirza Mahmood Ahmad, i.e. the eldest son of Mirza Sahib, and the other daughter was married to Khalifa Asadullah Sahib, who did not belong to the community. And this father who was CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LANURI ARAUT DELEVATION 1015 Of the daughters, he was among the founding members of this association, the very first fourteen members that Mirza Sahib appointed to this association. He was no ordinary man, he was a very great personality. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was he a member of the Jamaat? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He was a member of the Jamaat, he was a devoted member of the Jamaat. One of his daughters is married to an Ahmadi, his other daughter is married to another Ahmadi. He has no connection with a non-Ahmadi who is not part of the Jamaat, she is married to him. So to say this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just asking, I just asked you, I haven't said anything yet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am just stating what the reality is. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so you have no objection if an Ahmadi girl marries a non-Ahmadi Muslim? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Merely on this basis, because in marriages you know there are many thoughts, many things to consider regarding family ties. Therefore, this is not a religious matter, this is not a religious issue, this is a social issue. Just as you and I consider many other things on the occasion of weddings, we also consider that a wedding should not take place in such a place where their domestic relations, the relationship between husband and wife, are ruined merely because of religious beliefs. From this point of view, we will definitely consider it, and this is... ...will be everyone's individual act. But just because he doesn't believe in Mirza Sahib, and this is such a big crime he has committed, don't marry for that reason, that is not our stand. And many... 1614 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27th, 1974 Even now, many of our leading people have marriages in families who are not followers of Mirza Sahib, and their daughters have come into families who are followers of Mirza Sahib. So, this is not a religious point of view. Now, take social relations like funerals, etc. This is also okay, it is a religious part, but it has a large social aspect. So, regarding this, I would like to submit to you that Mirza Sahib's and our community's stance is that I will present a photocopy of a letter before you, and the person who wrote this is a very important person in this community, namely Maulana Nooruddin, and he does not write his own words but rather Mirza Sahib's. He writes: "It is permissible to pray behind those who are not opposed and do not create mischief, and who pray to Allah, the Most Generous." These are the words of Hazrat Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have presented a letter from Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is meant by "who is not opposed?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit, "not opposed" means that he does not create riots and disturbances, he does not engage in slander and accusations, he does not speak ill, and he does not adopt such behavior that, due to religious differences, he exacerbates these differences in social matters and creates difficulties. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, those who opposed Mirza Sahib or spoke ill of him were the same people who did not believe in him as a prophet or did not accept his claims. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1615 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is not necessary. There are many people, a large number, if you give me the opportunity, I will tell you that many top-notch Muslims used to praise Mirza Sahib, and to say that whoever does not believe in Mirza Sahib's beliefs is against Mirza Sahib, speaks badly, this is not correct. For this, sir, if you allow me, I will tell you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you have said a lot. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal was a very top-notch person. Later, he also developed differences with us. The statement of Maulvi Ghulam Mohiuddin Sahib Qasuri and this investigation has been presented in the Munir Inquiry. His statement has been made that he had pledged allegiance to Mirza Sahib five years after Mirza Sahib's claim in 1897, and this has also been published in the newspaper "Nawa-i-Waqt" on November 15, 1953. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who had pledged allegiance? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir Muhammad Iqbal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir Iqbal? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Okay, then... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can I ask you something? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you don't let me talk. If you just... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Forgive me, but my... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you listen to me a little, that you give references here... 1616 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Madam Acting Chairman: (To the witness) Please speak slowly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have given quite a few references regarding Mirza Sahib's denial of Prophethood, after 1901, and after that as well. So when you give these references or read some references from there, do you only read those references that are in your favor or support your stand? You don't give the ones that are against it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, Sir! My position, I mentioned in the beginning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you that you mention Allama Iqbal, that he said this on his death. I am not saying what Allama Iqbal said thirty years later... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will submit that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not in your own answer. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No Sir, I will definitely submit that Allama Sahib... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana Maududi wrote an entire book, you don't mention that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will definitely do it, Sir! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You took one sentence from somewhere that Maulana Maududi said this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No Sir! I will definitely state his position. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I asked that you... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1617 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: If he would let me... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't let me speak. The answer that you have submitted, I am asking about that, that in it you mentioned that Allama Iqbal said this, a sentence of his was taken. Maulana Maududi said this, a sentence of his was taken. Later you don't mention what he said later. Allama Iqbal pledged allegiance in 1899, Allama Iqbal praised in 1911 that he was a great thinker of Islam. Allama Iqbal went in 1930 and read what injustice happened, what this man said. Then in '33 he went and received more news about them. Then he said that no, this is a different matter altogether. So you are not saying that he said this first. I am a lawyer, I go to court. I have a case There are three precedents against me, four precedents in my favor. If I know my profession even a little bit, and any lawyer who knows his profession even a little bit will bring forward the precedent that is against him, as well as the one that is in his favor. This is a court and then says, "Sir! This is what it means, this does not apply to my case," that this may create doubt and this applies to my case. So you mention Allama Iqbal, that he brought the pledge of allegiance, and you don't mention that when Pandit Nehru came into government and power in 1935-36, how many Qadianis took out processions and held meetings for him. They said that Hey! He is becoming a native prophet, this is a very good thing. Then Allama Iqbal jumped in and opposed them. You don't mention that. So don't mention such a man who has opposed you so much, and you will say that a sentence goes in my favor. 1618 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 "Whether Allama Iqbal pledged allegiance or not, because it is of no use. Neither should they present to us those references that are in your favor; those references that are against, you say that you are not presenting. Because you have to help us here so that we can reach the right decision, and that is why we requested you to come and tell us something, upon which you… Now, when I ask you a question, you start a speech on it. The result is that the question remains where it was. I asked you a simple question: What are social relations? You said that we allow marriage, that if an Ahmadi girl is there, she can marry a non-Ahmadi Muslim. Anyway, it is fine. If any Muslim also sees that the marriage is in a good family, then that is another consideration. You have no objection to it, we have noted this point. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I did not get a chance to submit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, you will get a full chance. First, answer my question. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I will try to do so. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, about the matter of marriage that you just mentioned, I ask you this: at the time of the first Caliph and after the death of Mirza Sahib, did an Ahmadi give a girl to a non-Ahmadi, so Hazrat Khalifa Awal removed him from the leadership of the Ahmadis and expelled him from the community and did not accept his repentance during his six years of caliphate, despite the fact that he kept repenting again and again? This is a reference in Anwar Khilafat. You may not accept it, but did this fact happen or not, is it a reality or not? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I submit, Sir, that this Anwar Khilafat is also by Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Sahib... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1619 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, that's right, I'm saying. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No sir, that incident should come before me, who is the person whose incident is being narrated? Who is the person whose incident is being narrated that his repentance was not accepted for six years. What happened after six years? Who is that person? What is the incident? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: For six years, he was only the Caliph. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, is that incident about a person? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There was a person, a Muslim. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: That person should be identified, shouldn't he? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You mean to say that no such incident happened? Is that what you think? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, no, not until the matter comes before me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, are you aware of any such incident? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I have submitted, sir! That until an incident is presented before me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I am saying, that you are not aware of it? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No. Madam Acting Chairman: The honourable member should... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look sir, if you see, there is one thing, the kind of arguments that lawyers have, we don't do that, the proof of the case is first or then we talk. I'm just talking like that. Madam Acting Chairman: Mr. Attorney-General, don't you have the name of that person? 1620 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 27th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whatever I have got is given in "Anwar-i-Khilafat." They have not mentioned the name of the person. But may be given there in that. We can find it out. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No sir, I have not come across any such name. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No such incident has come up? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No sir, I have never come across this name. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, you tell me, this is social. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes sir, allow me to speak about social matters. I didn't mention Allama Iqbal's name because one or two of his phrases had passed before my eyes. I brought it up in the mention of your social relations that Allama Iqbal Sahib opposed so strongly later on. If his opposition was because of Mirza Sahib, because of Mirza Sahib's beliefs, then he was such a wise person, he had their beliefs in front of him for so long, that person takes the oath of allegiance. It seems that despite those beliefs, he was taking the oath of allegiance. He developed a disagreement. I definitely want to mention those disagreements. Those disagreements arose and became so severe that he wrote books on them. This is my stance, sir! That people's disagreement is not because of Mirza Sahib's existence, during Mirza Sahib's time, because of Mirza Sahib's beliefs, but rather such circumstances arose later and such new factors gathered due to which those people who previously believed in Mirza Sahib, they also left you. This was my stance. And the second submission I wanted to make in this regard is that Allama Iqbal is the one who himself is a strong opponent of the Jamaat, but his sent ones are included in the Jamaat, his brother. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAMURI DAVUS PELENA BO Included in the group, their father included in the group. There were no bad relations. Allama Iqbal, whose brother was included in the group, they considered him like a father. So, to merely say that social relations deteriorated due to differences in beliefs, this is not the case. The bad people had poor relations. The good people, the understanding people, the sophisticated people, they did not spoil relations. I mentioned the example of Allama Iqbal because within the same house, one brother and another brother, their nephews, their sons, there were no bad relations; their relations were very good. This was the reason for presenting this name. Secondly, I was saying that if their relations and their beliefs were so bad, then it should have been the case that when that person made a claim, I have mentioned that even then no voice was raised against him. A period of opposition came in between, and that opposition manifested individually in different places. What I had denied was that such nationwide scale, except for '53 and except for the current situation, these differences had not taken such a severe and horrific form. I presented this as a comparison. It was not at all my position that there was absolutely no opposition to the group. I myself had stated that some parts of these people, some people, some neighborhoods were such that they were not allowed to go to mosques, their funerals were disrupted, so I admit this, these situations arose, and due to this, rifts also occurred. But I was saying that the beliefs themselves or those claims were not such that would cause such a universal and all-encompassing kind of disagreement. These are the only two examples in my knowledge. Furthermore, when Mirza Sahib died, I am not mentioning the group, I am mentioning the Muslims... 1622 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 I am presenting what Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, who did not share their beliefs, said. He says: "A person, a very great person, whose pen was magic, whose tongue was enchanting, who was a collection of mental wonders, whose gaze was seditious, and whose voice was like the Day of Judgment, whose fingers were intertwined with the threads of revolution, whose two fists were two batteries of electricity. That person who remained an earthquake and a storm for the religious world for thirty years, who awakened those asleep in the world of existence like the noise of the Day of Judgment, departed from the world empty-handed. This skewer of death, this cup of poison, although it turned the existence of the dying person into hidden dust, will remain as bitter failures on thousands and millions of tongues. And the onslaught of fate has massacred the desires and aspirations along with a living soul, and the sound of mourning will keep its memory fresh for a long time. The passing of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani is not something from which a lesson should not be learned. And such people who bring about a revolution in the religious or their own world do not always come into the world. These darlings of the children of history rarely come to the world. And when they come, they show by creating a revolution in the world. This departure of Mirza Sahib, despite severe differences with some of his claims and some of his beliefs, made the educated and enlightened Muslims feel upon his eternal separation that a very great person had separated from them." This is the impression of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, who was not one of his followers. Similarly, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are you answering some question? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1623 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am giving this, sir, that their beliefs were not such that would deteriorate the social condition of the country or that the educated class would feel that a very dangerous incitement is being created within us because of that person. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This question is over, Sahibzada Sahib! After this, I am asking you for details. I submitted that how were the social relations? You said they used to allow marriage. Now here I will again read out to you a reference from Bashiruddin Sahib, this is from the same book.... "Ahmad" which is his book. If he is saying something, and that thing is wrong, then you will tell that you have refuted that thing. And this is the matter of 1915. He says: In eighteen ninety-eight: "The same year 1898...." "The same year with a view to strengthen the bonds of the Community and to preserve its distinctive features he promulgated rules regarding marriage and social relations and forbade Ahmadis to give their daughters in marriage to non-Ahmadis." In 1898, Mirza Sahib gave this order to strengthen the relations of his sect that Ahmadi girls will not be married to non-Ahmadis. Can you tell in your literature whether you have ever refuted this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! I submit that the writings of Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Sahib, his books, his statements, the history narrated by him, are not only not an argument of any kind, but forgive me when I say that they are dangerously misleading. 1624 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I only made one request to you, that a man about Mirza Sahib, who is his son, is sitting as the Caliph of the time, and in your newspapers "Al-Fadl" a controversy is going on, and we have been seeing this from 1914 till today, this controversy is ongoing: Mirza Sahib did not say this, he said that, he did not say this. When they say such a big thing that a non-Ahmadi Muslim cannot marry a girl. They say this in 1915, in 1917, and until today, is there anything in your literature that this is wrong? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I probably cannot state it correctly. I had mentioned that the marriage of Mirza Bashiruddin's sister-in-law, that of Bashiruddin... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand, no, I understand, I am asking whether it was Mirza Sahib's order or not? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Obviously, the statement is wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is wrong? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Absolutely wrong. The practice is showing, the incident of their own house is showing that it is wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, tell me, do you offer prayers with other Muslims? Do you offer prayers with other Muslims? If a Muslim Imam is not an Imam of your community, do you offer prayers behind him or not? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Mr. Speaker! I had submitted that we people, Mirza Sahib's instruction to us is that no person is a non-Muslim until he himself becomes a non-Muslim, and we should offer prayers behind him. But this is the saying of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him)... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORE GROUP DELEGATION 1625 that whoever calls a Muslim an infidel, the disbelief turns back upon him. And a person should make his imam from among his followers. When that person, in our opinion, declares a person who is a believer and Muslim in our eyes to be an infidel, then the saying of the Holy Prophet is this that the disbelief turns back upon him. If the scholars today withdraw this fatwa that Mirza Sahib is an infidel is not, then even today we do not call any Kalma گو an infidel and are ready to offer prayers behind them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Jazakallah, you have said a very good thing. I ask you one and ask another question. When there was talk of Quaid-e-Azam that Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan did not participate in his funeral prayers, this has become a big controversy, although you have nothing to do with them, Chaudhry Sahib and others. Did you people Did you offer the funeral prayers in absentia of Quaid-e-Azam behind any of your imams? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! Read. Mr. Yachi Bakhtiar: Read it, okay. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And not only him but also many others, for example, Sir Aga Khan Marhoom. And many more. Mr. Yaki Bakhtiar Nagar, don't the people of Rabwah do that? Mr. Abdul Mastan Muammar: Sir! About them, I. Mr. Yaki Bakhtiar: He said that Okay, tell me, if the Imam has not given this fatwa, then you will offer prayers behind him. Will you read it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. This published fatwa of our Imam Maulana Nooruddin is available that he said that when you go to so and so or to another place, go to Europe, then there the fatwa was not against us, he says pray, and they do. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And tell me, if there is a man who has not given any fatwa, or if the sect to which he belongs has not given a fatwa, and he dies, then do you offer funeral prayers in your place? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if a fatwa has been given, then you don't offer? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That's because it goes against the command of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). We don't give any fatwa on that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: How far is it correct that Mirza Sahib had two or three... sons who did not pledge allegiance to him, did not become Ahmadis? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Then please tell me further. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, is it correct that there were any such sons of Mirza Sahib? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mirza Sahib had five sons, the eldest of whom The elder's name was Mirza Sultan Ahmed, Mirza Sultan Ahmed, he had become Ahmadi before his death. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was there any other boy who was not Ahmadi? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, there was one, who was Fazal Ahmed Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was not Ahmadi? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1627 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: It is not a question about Ahmadiyyat, but about his own father's such dangerous relations... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I ask you a simple question, why do you bring in other things? Whether he became Ahmadi or not? The reason why he didn't become ...... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: He did not become Ahmadi, but about the funeral I submitted Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will come to the funeral as well. I have noted all the details. We have been doing this work, and nothing else. Did Mirza Sahib attend the funeral at the time of his death? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He did not. Mirza Sahib said that this was his very obedient son? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: But he also said that in the matter of religion, he had allied himself with such people who were against the will of God Almighty. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Had allied himself? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: That in their family, in Mirza Sahib's family there was a family feud... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you whether he had issued any fatwa against Mirza Sahib? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, sir! There is no fatwa. His domestic relations were... 1628 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Enough, please drop the other topics. We were talking about fatwas. You said they issued a fatwa, that's why you don't pray behind them. I said, a son was born in their house, that boy grew up, he is a very obedient and pious boy. He didn't become an Ahmadi, he died, he didn't issue any fatwa, Mirza Sahib didn't offer his funeral prayers. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted, sir! It's not because Mirza Sahib said so. Show me one word from Mirza Sahib saying, "I will not offer the funeral prayer for this person because he didn't believe in me"? Show me one word from all the literature? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What was the reason then? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Strained relations. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Relations? What relations with a dead person? What relations with his own child? He said that he is obedient. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This could be an objection. But it has nothing to do with the fact that he didn't offer the funeral prayer because of religion or because they didn't believe in him. There is no such example. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, look, Sahibzada Sahib! It's a simple matter. On one hand, we have this statement from Mirza Sahib which says that this son of mine was pious and obedient. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I don't think the word "pious" is there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Obedient"? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Obedient - An obedient person is pious, isn't he? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1029 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It's not just age, there are other things involved. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, the obedient one himself says that this was the case. Then he passes away, and after that, Mirza Sahib does not attend the funeral. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Look, there are two things. I will not attend or have not attended the funerals of many people who die in Lahore or Rawalpindi. Someone can draw this conclusion from that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, this is a different matter that in Lahore... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Show me where Mirza Sahib said that I am not offering his funeral prayer because he does not believe in me? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just leave it. I have told you that he did not become Ahmadi, I have told you that he was obedient, I have told you that Mirza Sahib did not offer the funeral prayer upon his death. Other than that, we do not need any more evidence. If you have anything, tell us. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted that his social relations were so bad, so bad socially, that he could not attend because of that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me make another point. Mirza Sahib had told him to divorce his wife. Mirza Sahib said, "I also divorce your mother because you are not trying to get Muhammadi Begum to marry me." Wasn't that the reason? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! Because the incident of Muhammadi Begum has come up. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say that there were other reasons. 1630 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: ... Therefore, now I am allowed to submit. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui: It is time for prayer. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Firstly, this objection was raised that he said to divorce his daughter Wife. Sir! This incident is very similar to that. Still five minutes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Still five minutes more..... Madam Acting Chairperson: Okay, there are five minutes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The complaint was that he said to divorce his wife. These are domestic matters. A father understands better what qualities my daughter-in-law should possess. He should definitely have that right. What was the reason? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I don't want to go into that detail. Was this the reason or was there another reason? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no, that was not the reason. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then leave it. What is the reason, tell me? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I was submitting that there was a family of Patti who were distant relatives of Mirza Sahib. The moral, religious and religious condition of those people was very was weak, in the eyes of Mirza Sahib. That's why Mirza Sahib tried to make those people religious, just like he used to try to make outsiders religious, so he He tried to familiarize that family with religion, Islam, the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). illuminate. But those people were close to atheism and they were this kind of preaching Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Are they talking about the family of Muhammadi Begum or someone else? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1631 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say the same thing indirectly, you bring up the domestic matter again. Are you talking about Mirza Ahmad Baig? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I was submitting that you asked about Muhammadi Begum. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, are you talking about Mirza Ahmad Baig? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The point will be the same as I say, then you say no, this is not it. This is a domestic matter." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I submitted that it is the same thing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We have studied all that, Sahibzada Sahib! And that is why I submitted that their domestic situation was very bad, they were becoming atheists, they were moving away from Islam, and Mirza Sahib said, "Marry Muhammadi Begum to me, then you will come closer to Islam, your troubles will go away." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir! The incident is not like that. [At this stage Madam Acting Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali.)} Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The incident is not like that. The incident is like this: Mirza Sahib said that "I will show you a sign of mercy or punishment because you people cannot come to the right path through ordinary preaching and advice. And the signs of Allah Almighty are such a thing that by showing them, if a person actually sees a sign from Allah Almighty, then it can affect the person's being. This is the starting point. 1632 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right, sir, look, the thing is, Sahibzada Sahib! I am interrupting you again and again, actually all this that is, these events have come in great detail. Now the question is whether Mirza Sahib got angry that the boy did not divorce his wife at his behest? And Mirza Sahib, okay, the father knows best what kind of daughter-in-law should be, I agree with you on that. But Mirza Sahib got angry with him on this matter and did not offer the funeral prayer? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir! I said no, I haven't found any in history at least. If you know, it would be a great pleasure for me that Mirza Sahib did not offer his funeral prayer for this reason, this reason was stated by Mirza Sahib. In my knowledge, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't know any reason? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! No, I don't know the reason. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What was the reason he didn't offer? You say you will tell the reason you people. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted that domestic relations were bad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning on what matter? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: There are many, there are many things. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, sir, when a son does not obey his father, the father gets angry. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Okay, you can give two or four examples. It's a ninety-seventy year old event, you want to inquire the details from me like this what happened in the house? I submitted that the relations were bad. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1633 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are not aware of this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I submitted that the relations were bad, to my knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Relations were bad? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This was not the reason. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, it is time for prayers there. I will submit one thing to you, keep one thing in mind when you answer that the relations were bad, the father was angry, he did not offer the funeral prayer. The father says, "He was obedient, I will not offer the funeral prayer." How do you reconcile this? Think about it. Then we will talk after the prayer. Mr. Chairman: And break for Maghrib. The Delegation to come back at 7.30. The honourable members may keep sitting. The Delegation is permitted to leave, to come back in the House at 7:30. You may leave, please come back at half-past seven, half-past seven. (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: The House to meet at 7:30 p.m. [The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib prayers to re-assemble at 7:30p.m.] 1634 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 [The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghrib Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] EVASIVE ANSWERS AND PREPARED SPEECHES BY THE WITNESS Mr. Chairman: I would like to know from the Attorney-General about the procedure, because I have just arrived. I do not know what has happened in the morning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am making super-human efforts to ask him some questions..... Mr. Chairman: No. any difficulty? I have only requested the Attorney-General to guide me if the Chair's assistance is needed.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, what happened, this morning.... Mr. Chairman:.... because I am totally blank as to what they have said and how the questions have been put. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I just briefly explain. This morning, I asked him some questions about Mirza Sahib's claim He was not answering and was avoiding; and so I left the subject with a view to come back to the subject. Again he was avoiding. I left it. I went to a third subject. And now I am coming back to the same subject again. But I have to give up the subject because the man insists on delivering speeches which he has prepared. Mr. Chairman: No, we are not here to hear...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After all, he has got a right to speak, but he has prepared some speeches.... Mr. Chairman: But, they have to reply to questions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:..... anticipating certain questions. And actually they should have been examined first. And they have prepared those speeches. They would have been very useful to us at that stage. But we are all well-aware of what happened in the EVASIVE ANSWERS AND PREPARED SPEECHES BY THE WITNESS 1635 Course of two weeks. So, he is repeating those facts and, once or twice, I was rather harsh also. I felt sorry that I should not have stopped him, but he would not listen. Mr. Chairman: Just, just a minute. And my submission would be, we must try to finish it, if not this might, tomorrow in the morning session..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what my efforts..... Mr. Chairman:........because then our whole schedule and the programme would be upset. By tomorrow morning, we must in the morning session, try to finish it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We should sit as far as possible. Mr. Chairman: Dr. Muhammad Shafi. Except. Dr. Muhammad Shafi: We need their introduction. We don't know who these people are. Mr. Chairman: The introduction was already done before. Let me tell you: Maulana Sadruddin, Ameer of Jamaat, Anjuman Ishaat Islam, Lahori. Mirza Masood Baig, General Secretary. A voice: Sir, the one who has one ear, who is that? Mr. Chairman: Yes? A voice: The one with one ear. He doesn't have one ear. Who is that sitting over there? Look, I am not joking, he doesn't have one ear. Mr. Chairman: I have shown my ignorance because I have returned just now. So, I will take some time to have my own impression. So, after nine, we will discuss it. 1636 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 127th August 1971 Sahibzada Safiullah: Mr. Speaker! Mr. Chairman: Yes, is there no quorum? Sahibzada Safiullah: No, I am submitting that you had given some instructions to the delegation earlier, and they were trying to proceed according to those instructions. Now they do not understand. The Attorney General starts in the middle when asking a question. He should complete the speech. Mr. Chairman: Sir, I asked for this reason, to guide me from the morning, I do not know how it is proceeding. As you Sahibzada Safiullah: They are completely violating the rules. Mr. Chairman: I have discussed it with the Attorney General in the chamber that the question. He has shown me certain difficulties. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: No, now the respected Attorney General has checked it in the correct manner. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani: Now it is proceeding correctly. Mr. Chairman: Good. The Attorney General has told me that I will adopt that procedure, if there is any difficulty then, he will ask the Chair to get a definite answer. So, we can call them now. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar Sahibzada Sahib! I apologize again, but Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad Sahib's "Anwar Khilafat" addresses the same issue I was mentioning to you, about Mirza Sahib's son's death and how he didn't lead the funeral prayer. In the way that he describes it, whatever you find wrong, please point out which parts you agree with and which you don't. So, I'll read it out to you. "Anwar Khilafat" is on page 91, ninety-one: Offering funeral prayer for a non-Ahmadi. Then a question is asked regarding offering funeral prayer for a non-Ahmadi. One difficulty that arises is that the Promised Messiah has, in some instances, permitted the offering of funeral prayer (as you mentioned, this was a difficulty). There is no doubt that some references indicate this. And a letter has also been received which will be considered. However, the practice of the Promised Messiah (peace be upon him) was to the contrary. For instance, one of your sons passed away, who verbally testified to your truth. When he died, I remember you walking and saying that he never misbehaved and was always obedient to me. Once, I became severely ill and due to the intensity of the illness, I fainted. When I regained consciousness, I saw him standing beside me, weeping with great sorrow. You also used to say that he greatly respected me. However, you did not offer his funeral prayer. Otherwise, he was so obedient that some Ahmadis were not even as obedient. Regarding Muhammadi Begum, when the dispute arose, his wife… 1638 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 His relatives also joined him. Hazrat Sahib told him to divorce his wife. He wrote the divorce and sent it to Hazrat Sahib, saying, "Do as you please." But despite that, when he died, you did not offer his funeral prayer." Firstly, they use the word "died." They don't say "passed away," they don't say "the deceased." Well, that's their point of view. I am saying that this fact, I was asking you the reason for it, what was the reason? You said you would tell me. On one hand, he is obedient, and then they say his social relations were such that a man of such status, whom you consider a Muhaddith, would not offer the funeral prayer for his son! Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: My request in this regard is that I will reiterate that Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Sahib is our opposing party in this matter. We disagree with them on this matter. They want to gather some historical facts, some references, some bits and pieces from here and there to give the impression that their beliefs, their attitude, are correct. And we maintain that their attitude is wrong, their beliefs are wrong. That is why we disagree with them. I would respectfully submit, sir, that you are bringing this opposing party before me as a witness. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not a witness, I am presenting facts. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, I submit that this is exactly like a book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not talking about the book, I said that the word "died" was used. You certainly won't use that. Leave these things aside, this is the reality. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1639 Is it not true that Mirza Sahib's son passed away? It is also a fact that he was obedient, and it is also a fact that Mirza Sahib did not lead the funeral prayer. So, regarding that, you said that you could provide another reason. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit. I am submitting, sir, that regarding this person's events, you accept them as established first. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, not that. Let's leave that. I only said it so that you would Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, he should not be presented before us; this is a matter of affection. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, we are compelled to present them because it is from their books that we learn what the attitude was. You can certainly say that we reject it, and to what extent we reject it. Some people, whom you consider to be completely liars, may sometimes speak the truth by mistake. Some truthful people may mistakenly tell a lie. So, these are the things. You will see, according to your own teachings, experiences, and knowledge, which thing is correct and which is not. Now, you have acknowledged that Mirza Sahib's son was Fazal Ahmad. This fact you have admitted, that he did not become an Ahmadi. This fact you have admitted, that his death occurred during Mirza Sahib's lifetime. You have admitted that he did not lead his funeral prayer. Now, after that, regarding the remaining reasons, they say that because he was a non-Ahmadi, he did not lead the funeral prayer; you say no, there is another reason. So, about that, you can explain. 1640 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted that my first argument is that, from anywhere in all the literature, despite all the books of Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Sahib, they have never been able to present any reference that Mirza Sahib did not lead their funeral prayer because they were non-Ahmadis. Not a single reference, not a single example, not a single incident. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You, I submitted that you tell me what the reason was? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, I am submitting, I am presenting this thing. Secondly, I submitted that these incidents that you have taken from, it is strange that this book was published in 1915. After that, until today, on such a controversial point, that person did not reprint this book. More than half a century has passed since then. This shows how weak a position they adopted in it. Thirdly, in this regard, I submit that regarding Mirza Afzal Ahmad, it was said that "he was also obedient." If you, and when Daud died, if you consider both of their times, then perhaps this issue will be resolved immediately. When it was said that he was obedient and he was good, that is a matter of around 1892. This incident is from several years after that when that person died. So, do you understand that there is no change in a person? Don't their morals deteriorate at any time? So, that is the testimony of another time, this is the testimony of another time. Therefore, it cannot be presented. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will read and recite another reference of theirs from "Review of Religions." It is either Mirza's or Bashir Ahmad Sahib's. They are two sons of his. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1641 Both of them used to write a lot in that era. So, let me take out for you "Review of Religions," page 129, where it says: "Hazrat Masih Maud only deemed permissible the same treatment of non-Ahmadis that the Holy Prophet did with Christians. Our prayers were separated from non-Ahmadis. Giving them daughters was declared forbidden. We were stopped from attending their funerals. What is left now? What is left that we can do with them? There are two types of relationships: one religious, the other worldly. The biggest source of religious relations is worshiping together, and the heaviest source of worldly relations is marriage and lineage. So, both of these have been declared forbidden for us. If you say that we are allowed to take their daughters, then I say that we are also allowed to take the daughters of Christians. And if you ask why non-Ahmadis are greeted with 'peace be upon you,' then the answer is that it is proven by hadith that the Holy Prophet sometimes even responded to the greetings of Jews." So, I said that they kept saying this thing repeatedly. If you think that this is a matter of 1914-15, and they didn't say it later, then it might be, but the practice and practical experience has been that Ahmadis consider the marriage of an Ahmadi girl to a non-Ahmadi to be very bad. Sometimes it happens, that's another matter. But the reason for this is that they have some order from Mirza Sahib, which I read out to you, in 1898, that you should not do this. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: My submission is, sir, that this reference that you have read is a reference from Mirza Bashir Ahmad Sahib, who is their younger brother. We reject these things. We consider them wrong. We hate these things, and you should present any literature of ours regarding us. These things are wrong. Their positions are wrong. 1642 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 We have separated from them for this reason. We do not consider them to be correct in this path. So to say that Mirza Bashir Ahmed said this, Mirza Mahmood Ahmed Sahib said this, these things are not proof for us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now there is another one that: "Ahmadia Movement stands in the same relation to Islam in which Christianity stood to Judaism." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mr. Speaker! Whose article is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is by Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have been told that "Review of Religions". Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Every article in "Review of Religions" is not his. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not his? I have been told it is his, I have been told this and it is an article from 1906. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have mentioned this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You note it down, you can check it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have a note that in "Review of Religions" I think it cannot be shown that this is by Maulana Sahib... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will clarify regarding this so that the matter becomes clear. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You will have this? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1643 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: There are some parables like that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is from 1906, sir, you will have this. Review of- Religions in English. Maulana Muhammad Ali was its editor at that time. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, it's not here, it's not here. So, regarding this, I would like to submit to you that sometimes when a parable is narrated, it does not mean that each and every word, each and every part of it, is the parable. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You stated this morning that if a fatwa of infidelity is issued, it reverts back. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I did not say this, I presented a Hadith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, the Hadith, based on that, they issued fatwas against you. So, you were compelled not to offer prayers with them, that was the reason. Before this, you said that whoever recites the Kalima is not an infidel in your opinion. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Not a true infidel, does not exit the circle of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, so now there is a category of true infidel? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I don't remember, maybe you do, I gave the example of two houses of infidelity. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, that's right, so he is not a true infidel? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And he remains a Muslim? Does he remain a Muslim? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, he is a Muslim. 1644 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And despite that, you don't pray behind him? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That's why I mentioned, sir, that sometimes a person becomes so morally and spiritually degraded that even while remaining within the circle of Islam... That Imam of prayer is a kind of representative, he is ahead of us in prayer, he is our leader, he is our Pesh Imam. If such things are found in him that he is the person who is going to come under the warning of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), he is the one who goes against the wishes of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), who disobeys the commands of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), then to adopt this attitude about such a person that no matter how much he continues to oppose Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), you keep him exactly the same, this is not correct. But in principle, as I mentioned at the beginning, our principle is this: It should be clearly understood that if thousands of infidels are not called infidels, but silence is maintained about them, there is no great sin in it, contrary to calling a Muslim an infidel. This is a sin that is more dangerous than all sins. These are the words of Imam Ghazali that I have narrated from his book "Al-Iqtisad fil-I'tiqad". This is our belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's fine, you have explained it on that. In Islam? I am going to another point, what is the status of a Muhaddith (scholar of Hadith) in CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1645 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar Muhaddis's status in Islam is that he has a relationship with God Almighty, which is not like that of the prophets, but God speaks to them, and He has a special relationship with them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So he remains below the status of a prophet, he does not go above? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not even equal? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, neither equal, nor above, neither above nor equal. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because many Muhaddis have passed in Islam, from your point of view, it was also said about Hazrat Umar that he was a Muhaddis, about Hazrat Ali and other elders who have passed away as Muhaddis. So you say that Mirza Sahib was also one of those elders and saints who were given the status of Muhaddis? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, in the category of saints. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But he was not of the status of a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And a prophet, whatever definition he may be... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A prophet of any definition, so you have defined two definitions of prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have given the real definition of "prophet", and I have said something about its figurative use. 1646 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not going into that, you have explained that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Because he is not of the rank of a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not saying "rank." You just mentioned Hazrat Isa and Hazrat Musa. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Both are prophets? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Both are prophets. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say that a Muhaddith (religious scholar) is not of their level? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just wanted to know this from you. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, it is absolutely clear that a Muhaddith is not of the level of a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If a Muhaddith says that: "Forget the mention of the son of Mary, Ghulam Ahmad is better than him." Then what would you infer from this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Look at the composition of the verse, this person is lost in the greatness of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). This person says that you have been assuming that a non-follower will come and reform the ummah of Muhammad, that an outsider will come and do it, that is not right, forget that idea. The followers of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) can reform the ummah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Therefore, since the words are a little similar, the word is "Ghulam Ahmad," meaning Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)... 1647 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORE GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand, but Ghulam Ahmad is a slave of Ahmad. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Slave. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A servant of Allah. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why would he claim that he is better than the Prophet? Look, you tell me yourself. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely correct. I would like to submit regarding this that I was submitting that in the verse that you presented there, the subject matter being discussed is: "Forget about the mention of the son of Mary." At this time, the hope that you people have placed that some person from the Children of Israel, a person from outside the Ummah of Muhammad, will come and reform the Ummah of Muhammad, this is not correct. Rather, this duty of reform is such a duty that the Messiah of Nazareth was for a small nation, for a limited time, time-bound and place-bound, he was a prophet. But the scope of action of Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is so vast throughout the world, he was the bearer of universal prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Sahibzada Sahib! I am asking you a straight question. We are not comparing Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, with Jesus, peace be upon him, but one of his followers, one of his slaves. Can any follower, any slave, say that "I am better than any of those prophets" who are mentioned in the Holy Quran, better than any of them? In any way, can he say that? Do they consider it permissible in any way? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have submitted that Ghulam Ahmad is not referring to any person here. 1648 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Ahmed" cannot be, can it? He said "Ghulam Ahmed." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, he didn't mention himself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does "Ghulam Ahmed" mean "Ahmed?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. The Holy Prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I understand. Alright, now please tell me, when he says: Here I am, who has come according to the prophecies Where is Jesus, that I may place my foot on his pulpit? Here, "Ahmed" hasn't come in between yet. It's only him, and it's a comparison with Jesus. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: What comparison is coming? That according to me, "Where is Jesus?" According to me, Christ of Nazareth has passed away, حضرت مسیح ناصری is nowhere to be found, he is not alive. This is his belief, this is his conviction, this is his religion, that حضرت مسیح has passed away. So he says, "Where is Jesus?" Where is Jesus, he has passed away. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Has passed away. The Holy Prophet..." Look, look, Sahibzada Sahib! Listen to the point, the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has also passed away. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why Mirza Sahib would say, "No one can come on my pulpit?" Please think about the answer you are giving. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I was just about to say that, Sir. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1649 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is a prophet like “,” and regarding him, you are saying that “Where is Jesus, so that he may put his foot on my pulpit?” Meaning, so much arrogance, does a person show so much pride? Please answer this. Will you say that G5 has passed away? Hasn't the Holy Prophet passed away? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am presenting their belief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, it is not about their belief. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: According to their belief... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We believe that he is alive. You are saying according to your belief that he has passed away. I am saying that according to your belief, the Holy Prophet has also passed away. But it does not mean that his message is gone, his status is gone, he is not a living prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is the difference. This is our position that we consider Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, a living prophet in the sense that his status and his message are everlasting. We do not give this status to the message of the morning, despite that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As far as the message of the Holy Prophet is concerned, you are right. As far as the connection to the truth is concerned with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib is a human being, not a prophet. He must be a very pious person from your point of view, a Muhaddith, a Mujaddid. And you yourselves say that he does not have the status of a prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Exactly. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And he says, "Who is that prophet who can come and put his foot on my pulpit?" What is the reason for this? 1650 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That's what I was saying, wasn't I, that the statement is making the point that: "According to my belief, the Messiah has died. Now, this pulpit of Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, which has been established in the world for his service and for the propagation of his status, he cannot come to this place, a dead person cannot come." This is the point of it. Listen carefully: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, so he has died. Now tell me further, you, you just Although prophets have been I am no less than anyone in spirituality So all the prophets that there are, he says, have passed away a long time ago, but in spirituality, I am no less than anyone. Is a Muhaddith saying this, or is anyone saying this? And why is he comparing himself with the prophets? The Muhaddith who is, tell me this, that I will come to the references later, at this time I am only submitting to you that a person is a Muhaddith, a person who sits in the shoes of the Holy Prophet himself says that "I am his slave, I believe in all the prophets, but whenever he compares himself, he drags in one prophet, or someone else, or brings them all together. All of them cannot compete with me." So tell me, this comparison, unless he himself has a claim to prophethood, how does he make it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I would like to submit that the style of speech of every person and of the Holy Quran itself is such that there are some definitive statements in it, and some ambiguous statements, which is such that when you want to interpret or explain a person's speech, then the firm things that he has said, the strong stance that he has, you cannot deviate from that. You must have heard our submissions. We have given great importance to this.. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LANURI DAVUI DELUSION 1023 Forcefully, Mirza Sahib's statements are presented, stating that Mirza Sahib said: "I am by no means a claimant to prophethood. I consider a claimant to prophethood to be a disbeliever and a liar." "In my view, after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), if anyone, regarding a single sentence, says that Gabriel brought the revelation of prophethood to me, he becomes a disbeliever." And standing in the mosque, standing twice in the House of God, that person swears with great force that he is not a prophet. After that, presenting some of his poems, presenting some parts of his speech, taking some parts of his speech, where he has declared his prophethood thousands of times. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mirza Sahib! Sorry, Sahibzada Sahib! The thing is that now it is a very difficult issue for the Assembly. There is a group that says that Mirza Sahib was a prophet. Whether they consider him an Ummah prophet, an imperfect prophet, or belonging to a specific category. You say he was not. There are so many references from Mirza Sahib that he has said one thing in one place and another in another. We have to clear this position. We need your help. We needed their help too. So in these circumstances, you are saying that he has said a hundred times that he is not a prophet, a thousand times that he is not a prophet." So this difficulty arises. That's why we ask that the man who has said so many times that he is a prophet, so many times that he is not a prophet, then this evidence comes that when he recites poetry, he repeatedly says and calls his status the greatest, so for that I was suggesting to you what he is saying: "Though there have been prophets in the past, this Gnosis is no less than anyone's.” 1652 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 This is such a big claim, how can a Muhaddith make it? Listen further, "The cup that was given to every prophet, That cup was given to me completely." Meaning, "The cup that was given to all the prophets, I was given a cup more full than all of them." If you look at this claim, then you say that he is a Muhaddith. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The question that was asked is that Mirza Sahib has said in some places that "I am a prophet" and in some places he has said "I am not a prophet." Regarding this, I present a very simple principle, with which this entire difficulty will be resolved. I had submitted that the word "prophet," one is its real usage, and one is its metaphorical usage. You will see all the writings of Mirza Sahib in the light of this formula, then you will not see any difference. Wherever he has denied prophethood or messengership, he has done so in the sense that he is not one to bring a new Sharia, he has done so in the sense that whatever status he has attained, he has not attained it in the servitude of Muhammad Mustafa (peace be upon him), but rather he has attained it directly. He denies this completely. He cannot abrogate even a dot of any previous Sharia, i.e., the Holy Quran. This is the summary of all the writings in which he has said, "I am a prophet," sometimes in metaphorical meanings which are not real, just as I had submitted that you call a brave person a "lion," similarly, Mirza Sahib only used this word for divine conversation and address. The denial is in the sense that "I have not brought any Sharia," the denial is in the sense that "I have no connection with Muhammad Rasul Allah (peace be upon him)." The denial is in the sense that "I cannot abrogate even a dot of the Quran." But the affirmation is only in the sense that "God Almighty speaks to me and converses with me." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELECTATION 1033 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And "Am I a prophet in this sense?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, Sir! That is not the meaning of prophet, that is its metaphorical usage. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Metaphorical usage is correct, Buruzi is correct, Zilli is correct. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is not a type of prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not called a type. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you call him "Nabi" in this way? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Meaning, instead of the word "Nabi" in that place, you write "Mukalma Mukhatba Al-Nabiya" and this was said by Mirza Sahib himself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, does it come up that Mirza Sahib ever said this: "Some Muslims are angry since I have used the word "Nabi" for myself?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When Abdul Hakeem Kalanuri had a discussion with him... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He said: "Consider it undoubtedly severed." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Consider it severed" refuted? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that, did Mirza Sahib use this word again or not, regarding himself, and why? You tell me that a man who is a Muhaddith, a good man... 1654 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 That is the quality of a good man, a pious man, a great man, that he speaks clearly, does not confuse or confound. Look at this: "Yes, I made a mistake, in simplicity. Therefore, this word that has been used has hurt the Muslims, created misunderstanding, consider it amended for the future." After this matter is over, again the word "Bi," again the word "Rasool," tell me why? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mr. Speaker, Mirza Sahib has written this: "Because of being appointed, I cannot hide this word." Look, look at the greatness of this person, he says that: "Because of being appointed, I cannot hide this word. But because now you people understand it to mean something else, and that meaning is not found in me, therefore I submit to you that you should consider it amended. Consider it cut off. Understand the word "Muhaddis" instead. Its meaning will remain that of Muhaddisiyat." Tell me, after this, if Mirza Sahib ever used it, did he use it in any sense other than Muhaddisiyat? Never did, never. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now tell me, he says that I am a Muhaddis, and in the sense of Muhaddis, "Nabi" "I have been using and will continue to use the word for myself." Whatever the position was. So, if a person denies the use of this word, that "I am not a prophet." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1655 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I would like to submit that they do not call themselves any kind of prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning, the word they use. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: All the old saints use this word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When a saint used this word and someone said that we do not believe in you, then he does not become a disbeliever (Kaafir)? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No one becomes a disbeliever for not believing in Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And does not become any kind of disbeliever at all? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I did not say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You call two kinds of disbelievers. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir? Not that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You call two kinds of disbelievers. One in the sense of "sinful disbeliever." Does he also become a confirmed sinner who does not believe Mirza Sahib to be a Muhaddith? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, he certainly becomes a sinner, but not a disbeliever, he does not go out of the circle of Islam, he does not commit such a sin that we expel him from the Ummah of Muhammad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just a minute. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is such a sin. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There are two kinds of disbelief. Firstly, that a person denies Islam itself. Please listen, I am reading from Haqeeqatul Wahy, then I will give you the reference: 1656 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 "Firstly, there is the disbelief of a person who denies Islam itself and does not believe that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) is the Messenger of God. Secondly, there is the disbelief of someone who, for example, does not believe in the Promised Messiah and considers him a liar despite the completion of the argument, regarding whose acceptance and belief God and the Messenger have emphasized, and emphasis is also found in the books of previous prophets. Therefore, because he denies the command of God and the Messenger, if carefully considered, both types of disbelief fall under the same category of disbelief." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If you have more, please read on. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Because the person who, despite recognizing God..." There is nothing further, but this is very clear. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If I read further, it will become clear to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is the need after this? Page 185. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: As they extract the reference, I submit, in the same place, further on, Mirza Sahib states, he states: "I still do not call any Kalima-reciting person a disbeliever." See, it is now clear. In the beginning, he also says that there are two types of homes, and in the end, he also says it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "There is no difference between the two." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1657 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You see now. Let me just say something. I am a bit thick-headed, and I have not read these books, I have not read these books and I do not understand, and I want to ask you... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will try my best to be of service. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want clarifications. Mirza Sahib says, as far as I could understand, that: "There are two types of disbelief. One is the one who does not believe in the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). One who does not believe in the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) is a disbeliever, he is a disbeliever. The second is the one who does not believe in the Promised Messiah." He is also a disbeliever. Why is he a disbeliever? Because Allah Almighty said to believe in him, God and the Messenger said to believe in him. And he is denying the command of God and the Messenger, he is also a disbeliever. So, in fact, both types of disbelief become the same. And after that, they say that no, give it a little concession, They are saying this now. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no, we are not saying this, we are saying that Mirza Sahib's own statement is saying that there are two types of disbelief. It became known that basically he is telling about two types of disbelief. Because of that, a person gets confused. Perhaps the second type of disbelief will not result in any accountability. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, look at this, this which is, then he further states: "He who denies the command of God and the Messenger is a disbeliever." If considered carefully, both types of disbelief fall into the same category. 1658 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: It seems, then, that both must be maintained. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Their result will be the same. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: The result will be the same in parts. Now I would like to submit regarding that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Since a person, despite recognizing the commands of God and the Prophet, does not obey them, and according to the Quran and Hadith, does not believe in God and the Prophet, there is no doubt that, according to Allah Almighty, after the completion of proof regarding the first type of disbelief or the second type of disbelief, they will be liable for accountability on the Day of Judgment." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Now see, there in the beginning, you state that there are two types of disbelief. This stand that I presented to you earlier, that there are two types of disbelief, Mirza Sahib also acknowledges this. After that, a question arises: Will there be no accountability as a result of the second type of disbelief? Is it a futile exercise? Can someone keep doing it without consequence? For that, it is stated that no, there will definitely be accountability for it, and in terms of accountability, both types of disbelief will fall into the same category. This is the conclusion that has been drawn from it. Therefore, I present the passage: "One type of disbelief is when a person denies Islam itself and does not believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the Messenger of God." This is a primary disbelief about which I have mentioned before. The second type of disbelief, for which he is then giving examples, for instance, the second disbelief is of a lower degree than the first, and he is giving an example of it: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1659 Secondly, this is disbelief, for example, not believing in the Promised Messiah, and despite the completion of the argument, despite understanding that this person is saying something false, and then considering him small. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You, one minute, Mr. Mirza! After the completion of the argument, does that mean that he is saying something false? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The completion of the argument means that what he... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar stated. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar stated and gave so much material to the other person that he should understand his truthfulness. Otherwise, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He gave him all the material, gave him all the arguments... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And now he is convinced that this is true. . Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does this mean that when a lawyer makes a full argument in a court, does it follow that he has told the truth? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, the completion of the argument does not mean what you have said. The completion of the argument is that the arguments he has given... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He has given all of them completely. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, not given completely, but acceptable to the other person, then he denies. This is the completion of the argument. Not only acceptable, but he should accept it, but despite understanding that he is telling the truth, then he denies and goes away. This is called "completion of the argument." 1660 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27th, 1974 So, I was submitting that regarding believing and knowing as true, which God and the Prophet have emphasized." He is not declared a disbeliever because of his disbelief and denial, but he is declared a disbeliever because of his disbelief in God and the Prophet: "And written in the books of the former prophets" Therefore, because he is a denier of the command of God and the Prophet, he is a disbeliever. And if carefully looked at, both these types of disbelief fall into the same category, because the person who, despite recognizing it, does not accept the command of God and the Prophet... Despite recognizing it, now see, what a big crime it is. He recognizes it, and then he denies it. So, this is a denial of God and the Prophet. Nowhere because of the denial of Mirza Sahib did they say that person becomes a disbeliever: According to the explicit texts of the Quran and Hadith, he does not believe in God and the Prophet either. There is no doubt that the one against whom the first or second type of infidelity has been fully proven in the sight of God will be liable to accountability on the Day of Judgment. And he upon whom God has not completed the argument. And he is a wavering and denier, then the Sharia has named him as a disbeliever. But we also call him by the name of disbeliever in accordance with the Sharia but even then he will not be liable to accountability in the sight of God due to the verse "Allah does not burden any soul beyond its capacity." Professor Ghafoor Ahmad: Sir! My request is that the witnesses be told that we also have earphones. If they speak in a normal voice, we will be able to hear the voice well. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1661 . This loudspeaker that is placed in front of them, we have earphones, we use them. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Which voice? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Keep it a little far, slowly, slowly, because they hurt the ears. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, yes. Now, Mirza Sahib is saying that disbelief, whether it is of the Kalima Tayyiba or of the Promised Messiah, one becomes a disbeliever because of the Messenger of God, not because of denying the Promised Messiah. You did not pay attention to these words. In that reference, it is worth noting that Hazrat Mirza Sahib does not call his denial disbelief, but merely declares it a sin and seeks justice, and instead of calling the non-believer a disbeliever, he calls him disobedient. In principle, regarding those who do not believe in you, your saying is: "From the beginning, this is my belief." I am reciting this from Mirza Sahib's statement, sir: "From the beginning, this is my belief that no person can be called a disbeliever or a Dajjal because of denying my claim." This is Mirza Sahib's fundamental position that no one becomes a disbeliever because of denying you. The matter there should be accountable. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will read out a reference. "Are those who do not believe in the Promised Messiah disbelievers or not?" This question came: A person asked, are those who do not believe in you disbelievers or not? Hazrat Aqdas Promised Messiah said that: 1662 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Go and ask the Maulvis what is the condition of the one who does not believe in the Messiah and Mahdi who is about to come according to them. So I am the same Messiah and Mahdi who was about to come." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Then you should ask them for this answer, what they say. Mirza Sahib has said what is the position of the Muslims... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is, they are infidels. You say that they become infidels of another category. Where did God say that one should believe in Mirza Sahib? Is there any reference for that? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: There is no discussion about believing in Mirza Sahib, but about the Messiah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not believing. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: The question is not about believing or not believing in Mirza Sahib, the question at the moment is a principled discussion. The principled discussion is that about whom the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: (Arabic) Is it punishable or not to not believe in the person who comes under him in the world? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now you tell me, if someone does not believe in a Muhaddith, then what kind of infidel can he be? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does not believe in Muhaddith? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, he becomes "Kufr Doon Kufr". I have told you a lot. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORE GROUP DELEGATION 1663 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can you mention any Muhaddith other than Mirza Sahib who, if someone does not believe in him... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If a person abandons prayer, the Hadith also calls him a Kafir. But this is a sin, in the sense of a sin, and you know that it is a sin. If someone does not believe in a great man like Hazrat Shah Waliullah, he himself says, "God has sent me as a Mujaddid in this era." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What does it mean not to believe? They say, "I do not believe he is a prophet." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, not a prophet, absolutely not. Mirza Sahib never said, "Whoever does not believe in me as a prophet..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the sense that you are taking it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, Mirza Sahib never said, "Whoever does not believe in me as a prophet is a Kafir." All such books of Mirza Sahib are available. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will tell you about his books. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Please take them out. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib has said: "The true God is the one who sent his messenger to Qadian." What was the meaning of this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The meaning of this is that in the writings of all the saints, you will find that they used the words "Rasool" and "Nabi" metaphorically for Muhaddiths, for non-prophets. Mirza Sahib used it in the same way. And Mirza Sahib said that: 1664 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 The word "Muhaddith" (narrator) is also included in the word "Rasul" (Prophet)." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar and Mirza Sahib also stated that: "The revelation that descends upon them is as pure as the revelation that descended upon the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him)." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You have asked whether Mirza Sahib said that: "The same kind of revelation descends upon me as the Quran." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "I have faith in it and consider it to be as pure." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: These are not the exact words, sir; the words "consider it to be as pure" are also not there. Let me tell you what it is. It is that Mirza Sahib states: "Regarding the revelation that descends upon me, I have no doubt about it." He "I consider it certain and definitive. It's not like I had a thought, heard a voice, or had some doubt that revelation was coming to me." He states: "This is not my condition. I am as certain that my revelation is correct as I am certain of the daylight." Is it that it is on par with the Holy Quran? Is it according to the status of the Quran? Does it have the same status as the Quran? God forbid, Mirza Sahib never said this. You can never show in all of Mirza Sahib's books that he considered his revelation Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are right that the revelation that comes to a Muhaddith may have errors in the listener's interpretation. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1665 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, the listener's. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it not possible for Allah to make a mistake? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's the main point. But this question cannot be raised about the Prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This mistake is possible. But Mirza Sahib says, "I have no mistake, I have no doubt." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, there is a big difference between mistake and doubt. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Doubt is mistake. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, doubt is whether this is revelation or not, this is doubt, whether it is from God or not? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then, according to you, there were no mistakes in Mirza Sahib's revelations? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, look, I will try to differentiate between the two things again. One is that Mirza Sahib said that "My revelation is equal to the Quran." He never said that. One is to say that "My revelation is certain, I have no doubt in it." As I have given the example that a person says during the day that "I am sure that it is day time." So it does not mean that regarding his certainty, we should say that look, he is claiming to be equal to the Quran. This is not the case. He says that the revelation that is revealed to me... 1666 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 I have no doubt about him. I consider him to be from God just like any other revelation, any other prophet." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, he has stated this, please listen, I was submitting to you that: How can I reject God's continuous revelation of thirty years. I believe in this holy revelation just as I believe in all the revelations that have come before me." You can see this "Rohani Khazain", "Haqiqatul Wahi", the thing I said to you, you say that he has not said it: It is as pure as the revelation that came to the prophets before him. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, I have submitted that Mirza Sahib's... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will read it out again: How can I reject God's continuous revelation of thirty years. I believe in this holy revelation just as I believe in all those revelations that have come before me." "Haqiqatul Wahi" (to the librarian) please take this out from "Rohani Khazain", Volume 22, Page 154. Here it is, sir, I will read it out, let me read it out to you again, like this, this is on page 153. In the beginning, I had this belief that what relation do I have with Jesus, son of Mary. He is a prophet and among God's great close ones. And if anything was revealed about my superiority, I would consider it to be a bestowed virtue. But later, from God Almighty. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1667 "When revelation descended upon me like rain, it did not allow me to remain steadfast on that belief, and explicitly the title of 'Prophet' was given to me." (Explicitly the title of Prophet was given to me.) God Almighty, you see, forgot, God forbid, to define with it whether it was metaphorical, not real: A Prophet and from one aspect a follower. Now, let me read out their footnote as well. Here in the footnote, they state: "It should be remembered that many people are deceived by hearing the name of Prophet in my claim and think that as if I have claimed that prophethood which in earlier times was given directly to the prophets. But they are mistaken in this thought. I have no such claim, but the expediency and wisdom of God Almighty have bestowed this status to prove the perfection of the benefit and spirituality of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, that by the blessing of his grace, I have been elevated to the status of prophethood. Therefore, I cannot be called just a prophet. A Prophet from one aspect and a follower from another." You were saying this morning that "a follower cannot be a prophet." Then further they state: "And as I have written some phrases of God Almighty's revelation as a sample in this pamphlet as well. It is also evident from that what God Almighty says about me in comparison to Christ, son of Mary." How can I reject thirty years of continuous revelation from God Almighty. I have the same faith in this pure revelation as I have faith in all the revelations of God that have come before me. And I 1668 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 I also see that the Messiah, son of Mary, is the last successor of Moses (peace be upon him), and I am the last successor of the Prophet, who is the best of messengers. Now, the status of money in comparison to Moses (peace be upon him), the status of prophethood, he is telling his status in comparison to Muhammad (peace be upon him). He is also a follower there, and he is also a follower here, he also has religious law and is non-religious, he is also non-religious. Mr. Abdul Sattar Omar: Three things have come together, so I will try... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I told you, you said no... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will present its answers separately. The first was that Mirza Sahib equated his revelation with the Quran. I submitted that, sir! This is not equal, but you are stating the subject that that revelation is not doubtful, it is certain revelation. "I have no doubt about it, whether it is revelation or not." So look, the original text that you have read from "Haqiqatul Wahi" is on page 211: "In fact, it has been tested many times that divine revelation has a special quality to give me heartfelt satisfaction, and patience is the certainty of that quality that occurs on divine revelation." "Alas, what kind of inspirations do these people have that, despite claiming inspiration, they also say that our inspirations are speculative matters. We do not know whether they are satanic or divine. Such inspirations cause more harm than benefit..." He is saying that "they also come to know whether this inspiration is divine or satanic." He says: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1669 I swear by God Almighty that I believe in those revelations in the same way that I believe in the Holy Quran and other books of God. And just as I know the Holy Quran to be the word of God with certainty and definiteness, in the same way, I believe this word that is revealed to me to be the word of God... He is presenting its certainty, not its superiority: Because Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Exactly right." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "...Because I see divine light and illumination with it." Now look, the second point was this. In short, the purpose of this passage is not to present his revelation as comparable to the Holy Quran, but to express that "the word that is revealed to me is also definite and certain." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a lecture, sir, you can give this reference to someone. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted regarding this reference that this is not... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this that you are reading out, is it your own opinion or a note? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have given this note. Then Mirza Sahib states, in his book "Al-Huda," on page 33: "The grandeur of the revelation of the Quran is not the same as the grandeur of the revelation of the saints." So Mirza Sahib's revelation is the revelation of sainthood, the revelation of saints, not the revelation of prophethood. His revelation cannot have the same grandeur as the revelation of the prophets. 1670 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 197. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You, you, I ask you, why can't it be? That is, two statements come from Allah. One comes to man, one comes to the truth. So why shouldn't there be dignity? Dignity is of Allah, the statement is of Allah, the source is the same, the origin is the same, it should be just as pure and have the same status. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No status, the revelation to Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace, according to our religion and belief, is not equal to the revelation to any human being in the world. No matter how great a person in the world, no matter how great a prophet... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You see. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That revelation is inferior to the revelation of Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sahibzada Sahib! I will make another submission to you. We still have the hadiths of the Holy Prophet. If he spoke to a very great man or spoke to a very poor man, spoke to a very inferior man, then you would not say that since he spoke to an inferior man, it does not have the same status as your hadith which spoke to a great man. That cannot be. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mr. Speaker! If somewhere Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is, it is about Him. His words are equal, no matter who He said it to. Allah who speaks, sends inspiration, sends down revelation, then you will not say that its status has become low. Because He sent this revelation to a Muhaddith, or to a Wali, and He sold it to another Prophet (peace be upon him), Allah Almighty, because of this, has made any difference in His revelation or the message that He has sent. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1671 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, this is a matter of beliefs. It is possible that I will I may not be able to convince you of my belief. But my belief... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is not the intention, look, we want classification. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My belief is that the revelation to Mirza Sahib or any saint cannot be according to the revelation to Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace. That revelation is so great, I will give you an example of it. Revelation was revealed to the Holy Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace. Faith Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say that: I have the same faith in this revelation, in this pure revelation, as I have in all those revelations. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Compared to its being speculative. That is why I left out the upper part of the reference there, I have read it here, that is why, just to tell you that there is no mention of greatness there. I offer again... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, it is as pure as the other revelation is pure, it is from God... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In fact... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And faith, both bring it in the same way... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, he does not bring it in the same way on both. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's what he says. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am submitting, it has been stated above, look at the wording of that... 1672 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 127th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tell me one thing before we move on. This Islam, was it for the simple, poor people, the common people, or was it for the intellectuals? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! It is definitely for simple people like us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Simple people. These things that Mirza Sahib is saying, "I am a prophet, a reflection, a metaphor, I am not, I am, I am." Was the purpose of this to spread Islam or to confuse people? You tell me. Look, I am an intellectual, I have 26 years of experience, I have been at it for a month, and I still can't figure out what Mirza Sahib was saying? I submit, sir... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And they gave speeches for 15 days, and they couldn't clear it up. You are saying it now, and you can't clear it up. You can imagine, for God's sake, what will be the state of the Muslims? Could there be a greater فتنه(rebellion/civil strife) than this? This that you have repeatedly derived meanings from, "reflection, metaphor, original prophet, prophet, such pure revelation," this revelation is not pure. And now you say that this is a simple religion, straight forward, in which there is no question of confusion. So, you tell me then, he says that: "My revelation is as pure as that which came upon the rest of the prophets. I believe in it in the same way as the rest." You say no, it is not so. Well, this confuses things a lot, sir! CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1673 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit, sir, the confusion sometimes lies not in the matter, but in the writing of the next person. The Holy Quran is very simple. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you are saying that the other people are simple, right? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit, sir, but despite its simplicity, the majority of the world does not accept its truth. So, this argument that people are confused is not valid. The Holy Quran is a very correct thing, a simple thing, a heavenly thing: (Arabic) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the Holy Quran is absolutely correct. When it said "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" (Seal of the Prophets), we said the series is finished, it is sealed. You say no. Some say: "The window is open, some say it is closed." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, we do not say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You do not say that, okay, no. The Hadith of "La Nabiyya Ba'di" (No Prophet after me) came, that no prophet will come after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). You say that a prophet will not come, absolutely right, but in the sense that it will be "Zilli" (reflective) or metaphorical, and it will have those qualities, but it will not be a prophet. Someone of this kind can come. The one who uses this word for himself is right. Not believing in him is sinful, but not disbelief." You see, the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) did not say anything like that. He said that no prophet can come. You have been saying all day since morning that it was not in this sense, it was in another sense. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted that no prophet of this kind, neither of this kind nor of that kind, no kind can come. I have given my... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 1674 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And when he says that I am a prophet, a messenger of God?" Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: He said it in the sense of Muhaddis because people before said it in the sense of Muhaddis. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why doesn't he say he's a Muhaddis? When he said once that Muslims have been deceived, I made a mistake, amend it for the future." After that, the same action again. What do you say about this? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: That action, is this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning this thing that I make mistakes. People tell me that you made a mistake... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, no, not a mistake. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am talking about, didn't you deceive? "I said that I made a mistake, I didn't mean that, consider it an amendment." He became happy. The next day I started writing the same thing again. So people think about what it meant. A person should take a clear position, take a stand. There is the status of a Muhaddis, and on one hand, he says "I am a prophet," then says, "I am not." Then says, "I meant Muhaddis." Then says, "I will use the word prophet again." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I will request again that whatever that person said, others have also said the same thing. I present an example of that in front of you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, look, we only have the question of Mirza Sahib in front of us. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Only of Mirza Sahib. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1675 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar Mirza Sahib said that "I am a Muhaddith, you say Despite being a Muhaddith, why was the word Nabi used? Now I Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, he himself said, consider it an amendment, all my writings Consider it an amendment." Then after that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I want to mention a very great man in front of you. Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani (may God have mercy on him) says that: “The name of prophethood has been given to the prophets as a position, and we have only been given the title of claimant.” That is, the name of Nabi is not permissible for us, even though Allah Almighty, in our hearts, He tells us the meanings of His words and the words of His Messenger: (Arabic) That the prophets, they have been given the name of prophethood, we have been given the title of Nabi." Now look, he is a Muhaddith. He is a Waliullah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, he was given the title of "Nabi". Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He says. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, I will read another reference now. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He himself says Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Listen to another reference on this stage. Mirza Sahib says: In this Ummah, I am the only individual who has a large number of divine revelations and unseen matters. As many Awliya, Abdal and Aqtab have been in this Ummah before me 1676 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 have passed, that large portion of the blessing was not given to them. Therefore, to attain the name of Prophet, "Only I have been specified." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only I have been specified." Isn't this the status that Abdul Qadir Gilani Sahib has? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, that wasn't his. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That wasn't his. He says that only I am for this. This is the status of another prophet, so please tell me, what status is this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is the exact status that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) himself stated. I will present a Hadith from Muslim that "The Prophet of Allah will come." Now see, he is the Seal of the Prophets, there is no prophet after him, no kind of prophet can come. He says that "The Prophet of Allah will come." So, regarding Mirza Sahib, and regarding any other saint, any other Muhaddith, any other Mujaddid, in the entire collection of Hadith, this word is not found, the word "Prophet." So what is Mirza Sahib saying? In the language of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), among all the saints, all the Abdals, all the Aqtab, among all the Muhaddithin, among all the Mujaddidin, the word "Prophet" has been used only for one Messiah and for no one else. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So he became a prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is a reference to that Hadith. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so then they became prophets? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, they did not become prophets. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Despite that? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If giving the title of "prophet" makes one a prophet, I submitted that Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani states that "I have been given the title of prophet," does that make him a prophet? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, we break for tea, because I do not follow this. Can we have a five minutes break? Mr. Chairman: The House is adjourned for fifteen minutes. The Delegation, if they like they can sit here or, if they like, can come after fifteen minutes, at 9:05. They can sit, we will start again after fifteen minutes. The honorable members can go. At 9:15, we will assemble again at 9:05. The Special Committee adjourned for tea break to re-assemble at 9:05 p.m. The Special Committee re-assembled after tea break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-general. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You recited that about Hazrat Abdul Qadir Jilani, the translation that was given to me, in that he states that: 1678 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, i The name of prophethood was given to the prophets as a title, and we were merely given this title of claimant. That is, the name of prophet was not considered permissible for us, even though Allah Almighty informs us in our hearts of His word and the meaning of the words of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him." Not considered permissible." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Mr. Speaker, my submission is that Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani Sahib The words are in Arabic: (We have been given this title.) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And after that, what do you say after that? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: After that, the same thing that we say, that no one Abdul Qadir Jilani, may God have mercy on him... Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The word after that is: (Arabic) The name of prophet has been forbidden for us, closed off.) Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I presented the one with the title. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Present what comes after it as well. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: It is written right next to it. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: That is what I am submitting, sir. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: That is its interpretation: (Arabic) Mr. Abdul Manan Omar, so I submitted this, I am submitting this 1679 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no, the thing was, Sahibzada Sahib! Here, they have said that Mirza Sahib said that: "My name was kept Nabi and Rasul." It is not about the office, it is about the title. "My name was kept Nabi and Rasul." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "I was given the title of Nabi." You read the reference to me. I have submitted that from these words Hazrat Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani (may God have mercy on him) you were not deniers of prophethood, they were not claimants of prophethood. They had faith in him being the last prophet. The intention is to tell that among the saints of the Ummah the use of this word is also for non-prophets and this word is also used for Muhaddithin. Therefore, they were also men of the category of saints. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say that we have been forbidden." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, it has been forbidden. In it Nabi: (Arabic) (We have been given the title of Nabi.) Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: "The title of Nabi was not said." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: What title was given? Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The title of Nabi was not given. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: What title, sir? Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The title of saints, Qutb, Abdal, Ghous, these titles were given. 1680 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Say what the saints say, whatever you say. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: It's not here, this explanation is not here. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: It is ahead: (Arabic) Its explanation is this: "The naming has been closed for us." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar and Mirza Sahib say that: "I am a prophet according to God's command. If I deny it, it will be my sin. When God calls me a prophet, how can I deny it? My name has not been kept." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I was submitting that sometimes the word "Nabi" is used by the saints, but it does not mean real prophethood. For this, I would like to submit that Maulana Rumi says in the fifth volume of his Masnavi: "He is the prophet of his time, O disciple! Because the light of the prophet comes from him. Confess in good deeds, So that you may find light within." That is, he says about the Pir that he is also the time, he is the prophet of his time. Now the Pir is not a prophet, he is a Ghair Nabi. But Maulana Rumi calls him: "He is the prophet of his time, O disciple! (O my disciple! He is the prophet of his time.)" 1681 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Why is someone a prophet? He is not a real prophet. "Because through him, the light of Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace, is being manifested." Then he says: "Endeavor in good works and service." "So that while living in the community, while being unlettered, you may attain prophethood." That is, since the light of the Holy Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, appears through the Pir (spiritual guide), therefore he is the prophet of his time. So he strives in service and obedience so that he may find pleasure in the community. Now look, the word is "prophethood," it is "community." It is an instruction, the Pir is called "of the time." But despite this, Maulana Rum did not consider prophethood to be ongoing, he considered the Holy Prophet to be the last prophet, he had faith and conviction in خاتم النین (Seal of the Prophets). The intention is to show that one should not be deceived by mere words. The word can also be used for a non-prophet in this way. Take its meaning. I had presented two meanings to you that wherever Mirza Sahib has used the word "prophet," he has used it in the Sufi terminology in which they also use this word for a non-prophet. But from this, those attributes of prophethood, those necessities of prophethood, that reality of prophethood, do not come into those people. So Mirza Sahib never claimed real prophethood anywhere. He never claimed to possess any of the qualities that are found in a prophet. 1682 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 127th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please leave this for a moment. I ask you this question. You were telling the characteristics of the Prophet this morning. And the definition of the Prophet that you gave, you also told it. Mirza Sahib says according to all the definitions of the Prophet that Wahi (revelation) comes to me, Wahi comes to the Prophet. I am a prophet. One who does not believe in me is a Kafir (disbeliever). Now this becomes the definition of "Muhaddis" (one who receives inspiration) that Wahi comes to him too. One who does not believe in him becomes a Kafir too? And says about himself that I am a prophet, not a Muhaddis. I have canceled the word Muhaddis, but I will still use it." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, I was submitting that Mirza Sahib never said this. You said that he said that "one who believes in me becomes a Kafir." Regarding believers, I submitted that he said: "No person becomes a Kafir by not believing in my claim." I have presented his explicit reference. "Tiryaq-ul-Quloob" is his book. I presented this reference from it that: "No person becomes a Kafir because of denying my claim." Rather, he further states in this regard why one does not become a Kafir. "After all, Wahi comes to me too. He (God) does not kill me, even then..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sahibzada Sahib? Please tell me, don't you say in Ek Ghalti ka Azala that: "The word Muhaddis is not according to my status. The word Prophet should be used for me?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He did not say that it is not according to my status. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORE GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he was not satisfied with that. Am I right in saying he does not discuss it with you? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No Sir! He did not say that. He only said that, literally, a person who is blessed with conversation and discourse is not called a "Muhaddith" in the dictionary. This is a literal discussion, not a discussion of status. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then why do you say it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I do not say it literally; I say it as a matter of fact. In terms of the dictionary, this word is not correct for him. The word "Kalam" is used for it, meaning God speaks to him. This is according to the dictionary... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does he then become a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No Sir, he does not become a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he says to use the word "prophet." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "I have indeed used the word prophet." See this, he has stated that: "...or a prophet of the time." The argument is not with the word "prophet." The argument is whether he possesses the attributes of prophethood. I have presented four attributes of prophethood to you. One is that his revelation is the revelation of prophethood. In over eighty (80) books of Mirza Sahib, not even one word can be shown where he has stated that my revelation is the revelation of prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he says that "my revelation is as pure as the one that came to the Holy Prophet, and I believe in it in the same way." 1684 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, its meaning is that it is certain. "There is no confusion in this for me that it may or may not be the word of God. It is not that it is satanic or not. This is what he said. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, look, sir, that's right, there is no doubt that the word of God came upon him? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, the word of God came. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no doubt about it, and then he says, "I believe in it as I believe in the word of God that came upon a prophet. It is as pure as that." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: But not the revelation of prophethood. Look, sir, the revelation of prophethood is a category. The revelation of prophethood is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Sahibzada Sahib! What I am asking you, consider my difficulty. Since I do not consider it necessary that a person says that revelation comes to me, is revealed from Allah Almighty, it is as pure as the revelation that came to the rest of the prophets. And I believe in it as I believe in the rest of the prophets, I believe in their revelations and at the same time he says that "I am also a prophet." You say that this "also" is not in this sense. So we say that when he says that revelation is coming upon me. It is so pure, it is from God, and I believe in it. I am a prophet". After that, he says. Despite this, there remains room for the fact that he says, "I am not a prophet." Clear this position in some way? When he says that I am also a prophet and revelation is also coming and the revelation is also pure and CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1685 "I also believe in Him as revelation came to the rest of the prophets." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I had requested that I had read out this entire reference. Mirza Sahib states that: "I present the revelation of God Almighty that descends upon me to the Holy Quran. But if it does not match the Holy Quran, then I throw it away in the same way as a person throws away dirt." This is Mirza Sahib's revelation that comes upon him, in comparison to the Quran, he calls it like dirt. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You tell me, if a revelation descends upon him and it does not match the Holy Quran, then he throws it away, if it does match, then what is the need for it? What need did Allah Almighty have to send the same revelation to a follower? (Pause) Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: So, I was submitting that you said that the verses of the Quran, which are the verses of the Quran, descended upon Mirza Sahib. Why did these descend? It is wrong to say that they descended upon the Quran, they descended upon the Messenger of Allah. I submit that verses of the Holy Quran used to descend upon the saints of the Ummah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said if such revelation is coming upon him... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: What is the need for it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Which is according to the Quran, the same as the Quran. I do not say revelations, he says that the verses of the Holy Quran, he says that they have descended upon me as well. Along with that, something else is added to him. And... 1686 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 It is something that is revealed to them and it is according to the verses of the Holy Quran but those are not the verses, then what is the need for them? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: What is the need, what is the requirement? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes sir, what is the need? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The submission is that in the era when Mirza Sahib came, the tribulations of that era are of a specific nature. Every era has a different tribulation. That era's tribulation is whether divine revelation descends or not. Atheism and agnosticism are increasingly leaning towards the idea that God does not speak at all. In our opinion, this is the biggest tribulation of this era. To remove this, God has sent a person and He reveals different types of words to him, in which there are verses of the Holy Quran and other things as well, and his glory, his position, his honor, his status can in no way be equal to the status of the Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If Quranic verses were revealed to him. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Even then it would not be. So, look, Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani (May God have mercy on him) says (Arabic) The verse was revealed to me." This is a verse of the Holy Quran. About Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah is about. So this is recorded in the twenty-eighth (28th) article of "Futuh-ul-Ghaib". So these kinds of verses are revealed. Similarly, look, I submit that Mujaddid Alf Thani had a son, his youngest son Muhammad Yahya was born, so before his birth He was inspired: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1687 (Arabic) Now this is a verse from the Holy Quran, it was revealed to this Wali Allah. He is not a prophet, he is only a Mujaddid. On that Mujaddid: (Arabic) This Quranic verse was revealed. It was on this basis that this gentleman was named Muhammad Yaki. Similarly, Khawaja Mir Dard Rahmat Ali says: (Arabic) This is a verse from the Holy Quran. Hazrat Mir Dard Dehlavi says that it was revealed to me. (Arabic) This is a verse from the Holy Quran about Muhammad Rasulullah Muslim. He says it was revealed to me. It is a verse from the Holy Quran: (Arabic) Khawaja Mir Dard says: "It was revealed to me." I will have the honor of presenting a saying of Hazrat Imam Jafar Sadiq, he says: "The entire Holy Quran was revealed to me." It is a very high position, but look... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no, I... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My request was, what is the need for: (Arabic) 1688 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, no, you have given my answer. I said that the revelation that descends upon them, which is in accordance with the Quran, are not verses, what is the need for them? You said that because people think that revelation cannot come, that is why Allah Almighty did it. That answer has already come from you. Now, from you, let me get some explanation on the correction of a mistake that Mirza Sahib talks about: "It has been a few days since an objection was raised by an opponent against a person that the one you have pledged allegiance to claims to be a prophet and messenger. And its justification was given merely in words of denial, although such an answer is not correct. To the extent that the pure revelation of God Almighty that descends upon me contains such words as messenger and sent and prophet, not once but hundreds of times. So how can this answer be correct that such words do not exist? Rather, at this time, compared to the past, these words are present with much clarification and expansion." So he himself is saying that if someone says that you are also a prophet, what was the claim? "You should not say no. Because these words have been used for me." Further, he explains, as I said, that sometimes he makes a claim, then he denies it, then he makes a claim, then he denies it, so there is confusion for us in this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar, in this regard, I would like to submit that the references to the writings of Mirza Sahib that we have presented to you cover the period from the beginning to his death. Any era, any time, any part of his life. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1689 We have not left out anything. There are references from the first day, references from the intervening period, references from 1901, references from after 1901, and references from the very day of his death when his writing was published. And in all of them, I had submitted that you have denied true prophethood. You have in front of me Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, if I read to you from my notebook, then the position will become clear. (Pause) This is your G number 6. From the references you have given, from Annex 'J', I am reading from those after 1991 and it says: "And then another deception is that to incite ignorant people, they say that this person has claimed prophethood. Whereas this is entirely their invention. Rather, no such claim has been made as claiming the prophethood is known to be forbidden by the Holy Quran." Look, it is only claimed that: "From one aspect I am a follower, and from one aspect, I am a prophet because of the blessing of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." "I am also a follower, also a prophet because of the blessing of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I had submitted that "Umati Nabi" (follower prophet) refers to a non-prophet. The word "Umati" (follower) has been used in its original sense. "Umati Nabi" refers to a non-prophet. This is just a principle. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 1690 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that's right. Listen further: And to say that he claimed prophethood, how much ignorance, how much foolishness, and how much departure from the truth. O ignorant ones! My intention of prophethood is not that, God forbid, I stand in opposition to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and claim prophethood, or bring a new Sharia. My intention of prophethood is only the abundance of communication and conversation with God, which is attained by following the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). So, you also believe in the abundance of communication and conversation. So this is only... And then a note of theirs comes that: "We have written many times that it is a real and factual matter that our Saeed Maulana, the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets, and after him, independently there is no prophethood nor any Sharia." Meaning, without a Sharia, a prophet can come, and a non-independent prophet can come. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. I submitted that the one who is non-independent is not a prophet, one who does not have a Sharia is not a prophet, this is our stance. That is not any type of prophethood. Its meaning is that he is not a prophet. The one who is not a prophet, will say that I am not a prophet." Why does he say that I am an Ummah prophet? Obviously, when he attaches a word with it, then he wants to indicate that "Prophethood is not actually found in me." This is the negation of prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We face this difficulty that they did not say in "La Nabiyya Ba'di" (no prophet after me) that an Ummah can come. If the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) had said this, then this issue would not have arisen. They said, "No prophet will come." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1691 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: We also don't say that a prophet will not come. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you say, "An Ummah member will come." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: An Ummah member will come. An Ummah member is not a prophet. There is no prophethood in the sense of an Ummah member being a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then why did they use this word repeatedly? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: These two words... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Again and again, even after they said once. I remind you again, I think you might be tired of me, that they said that this word causes people to make mistakes, it creates misunderstandings. Don't use it in the future. Why do they use it again after that? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted that they said, "Because the word 'Nabi' exists in my revelation, I will not hide it because I am commanded to, I will reveal it. But you people should not misunderstand it; it means 'Muhaddisiyat' (Inspired). And if you don't like this word either..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They themselves say that the word "Muhaddis" does not solve the purpose for them. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Not in terms of dictionary or terminology. In terms of terminology, you are a Muhaddis. Look in the dictionary; does "Muhaddis" mean the recipient of divine communication and conversation? They didn't say anything wrong there. Dictionaries exist in the world. Let someone find and show that "Muhaddis" has this meaning? So, they had a linguistic discussion there. That is a matter of language. They are explaining that... 1692 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 If you call him in terms of ending, then you have to call him "Prophet", if you call him in terms of terminology, then you have to call him "Muhaddith". (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just now you said that the Muhaddith who explains and changes the Holy Quran, what is his status, what is his position, compared to a common scholar? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: A common...? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...compared to a scholar? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The one who explains the Quran, a scholar of God can also interpret the Holy Quran, and a Mujaddid can also do it, and a Muhaddith can also do it, and a Wali Allah can also do it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is there no hinding in that? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it more hinding or less? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, no sir. It is just as much as a high-ranking lawyer, we will give more importance to his words. A deficient person like me has no status. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question, which I asked you, is that the position is that now this is a lawyer. This is an assembly, it makes laws, it has passed the law. After that, someone comes to me and asks what this law means? I will explain it, interpret it. It doesn't mean anything. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1693 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: That law will not be made. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that doesn't mean the law has changed. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But when it goes to court and a judge decides there that this is what it means, then the meaning has to be accepted by this assembly as well. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, that's right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If they don't like it, if that wasn't their intention, then they will make another law. But as far as the judge's saying is concerned, it becomes binding that these words have this meaning. So, I am asking that a scholar makes an interpretation that… Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Makes some meaning of a verse of the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this is what "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" means. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Makes some meaning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Does that become binding or not? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No sir, I submit that it does not become binding. I will present two examples of this. Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib was a disciple of Mirza. Mirza Sahib, in light of the Holy Quran, understood regarding the birth of Jesus that Jesus was born without a father. No, Mirza Sahib has written that the Messiah was born without a father. And he understood this from the Holy Quran. Maulana Muhammad Ali is one of his disciples. He has his interpretation here with me... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, okay, I have seen it. 1694 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In his commentary, he said that he is his father. Now, look, they consider him a Muhaddith, they consider him a Mujaddid, they consider him a Waliullah, but they differ with his commentary. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you stated in the morning that you had an offer to leave, preach, and they were even giving you some money, but not to do the commentary that Mirza Sahib did. They said we will not accept this. That's why I'm asking, did you consider it binding? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, in our opinion, it's like if you give an explanation, then in my opinion it will be so valuable that I will say, "Sir! I give precedence to his words." And an ordinary man, in my opinion, a lawyer will say: "No sir! This is not necessary." In our opinion, Mirza Sahib's revelation, or Mirza Sahib's explanation or commentary, is not binding in that way that you cannot go against it. I have given a practical example of it. I will give another example. This is not revelation, I will give an example of revelation. Mirza Sahib was once told: "Today is Eid." It was revealed that today is Eid. What's next? "Make tea, or don't." See, it is not binding. So Mirza Sahib never presented his revelation, his commentary, his clarifications in such a way that it is immutable like the Holy Quran and that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I didn't say that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is not so binding, the binding is not of that kind either. That... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am talking about his explanation, his commentary. Do you consider it binding or not? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1695 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No sir. I have only given two examples that we do not understand hinding. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just see, the Holy Prophet has explained the meaning of a verse of the Quran, we have hadith available. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Absolutely we hinding. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That hinding happens if it is correct. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So I say that you do not give such status to that of Mirza Sahib? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Absolutely, such status cannot be given. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, now tell me whether we have been allowed the interpretation of the Quran in Islam. After the death of the Holy Prophet, the interpretation of any one person cannot be hinding for us. I wanted to take this point from you. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, absolutely correct stance. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what about those of Rabwah? Is it hinding or not? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I cannot say anything. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: See, you have differences with them. If I say. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: The thing is that their so contradictory. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because1696 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: May I state a reason... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not that I am trying to instigate a fight between you. Our effort has been that we also asked them some questions. They said that they do not want to ask about it. But it was such a thing that there was no need. Whatever things were there, they were telling. So we ask for this reason so that the differences that are there are clear, what was this difference about after all? Now you say that he was a metaphorical prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Saying "metaphorical prophet" means he was a non-prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was a non-prophet. I am saying metaphorical for that reason. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And whether you understand it as "reflected" or understand something else, but the question of the original prophet or the real prophet does not arise at all? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They also say the same. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: What I have understood from you is that perhaps the difference is that what is the difference between our and their stance? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will state what the difference is. The first major difference, in which we actually have a huge disagreement with those people, is that whatever the status of Mirza Sahib may be, whatever explanation of prophethood may be given, whatever meaning of prophethood may be said, due to not accepting that position of Mirza Sahib, in our view, any person... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1697 does not become an infidel. But their point of view, which they presented in 1914 and 1915, was that they are infidels. This is ours. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are also infidels of the kind who... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, sir, this is the position I have... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they also said the same thing. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, sir, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The one you call "infidel," they also call the second category "sinner." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Absolutely not. My claim is that in the writings of 1913, 1915 and 1917, you show me one word like that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I have it. "Is an infidel. Is a confirmed infidel?" They kept saying this. But what Nasir Ahmad says, he says there are two types. He has used other words. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, sir! He has written that they are outside the circle of Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then he has interpreted it in such a way that besides the circle of Islam, there is also a circle of the community. Outside the circle of Islam but within the circle of the community. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: What is that circle? This is beyond our comprehension. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We have heard it for the first time. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: That there is a circle of Islam, and then there is also a circle of the community. At least it doesn't come to my mind. 1698 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I also said this, the Ummah, no sir, they said one... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: ...is the circle, one is the circle of Islam. Sir! Our It doesn't make sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, there is an Ummah, they say, that is the Ummah. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: We are completely free of their interpretations. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this because we have been confused Yes, because we had not heard this before. So we have been reading... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Our point is not confusing, it is clear... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We have been reading. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: We clearly say that sir, that circle... ...does not go out of Islam. Look, let me tell you, their interpretations, are some things, because half a century has passed... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am telling you this because... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: For example, I present one of their sayings: Even if a sword is placed on this side of my neck and a sword is placed on that side. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We have heard all that from those people. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Now tell me, what explanation can there be in this? This is our basic disagreement with them. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1699 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This I read out to them. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What you are saying. This is from Bashir Ahmad Sahib's "Kalimatul Fasl". Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Kalimatul Fasl." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Whoever does not consider believing in all the messengers as part of faith. Then, according to this verse, every such person who believes in Moses but does not believe in the son, believes in the son but does not believe in Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. And or believes in Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, but does not believe in the Promised Messiah, he is not only a disbeliever but a confirmed disbeliever and is out of the fold of Islam." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is contrary to Mirza Sahib's writing. Mirza Sahib said that "No one becomes a disbeliever by denying me." They say that he becomes a disbeliever. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they said on this that no, this is a disbeliever of the second category whom you call a sinner. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is not it, I submit that is not it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They said this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Okay, my submission is whether that is right or wrong, that they would know. Sir! Our fundamental difference with them is that Mirza Sahib Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now they have amended that, the Assembly record is available. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely, Sir. 1700 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then you are saying that there are no differences left? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, it has been amended, that's why I submitted that our disagreement with them has been going on since then. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But now you don't have a disagreement, right? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If it won't remain, then it won't remain. The thing is, we don't know what statement they have given in front of you. It was a secret proceeding. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that will come out, the secret proceeding won't remain secret for long. They have said the same. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: However much information you provide, we will be very grateful. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It won't remain for long. But they have said that the infidel that he is, is in the meaning of the sinner. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: So if you make two or four more changes, then they are your and our brothers, we will all unite. But the stand that we have taken, Honorable Sir! It is this that whatever status you accept for Mirza Sahib... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you make a slight change, make it slightly that way. (Three) Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, our change, Honorable Sir! You suggest any change to us and it is according to Islam, the Quran, the Prophet, and the Hadith, our necks will bow before it. You will never find us insistent that we are insisting. But the matter should be that which is from the Quran and Hadith. It shouldn't be someone's saying. You present something, it will be according to the Quran and Hadith, then... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1701 It will be very easy for you to refer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, now, as you said that "Haqeeqi" and "Haqeeqi Kafir" Is there any "Haqeeqi Muslim" as well? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who are they? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: One who believes in all the commands of the Holy Quran, one who follows the Example of Muhammad Rasool Allah, one who believes in the sayings of Hadith, one who believes in the Sunnah of the Prophet, is a true Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if, despite believing in all of them, he does not believe in Mirza Sahib, as Muhaddith or Prophet or in any other capacity, then? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He is a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is he a true one or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, because he denies a command of God, which is from God's Muhammad Rasool Allah (PBUH)'s great prophecy, he is a denier of a prophecy of Muhammad Rasool Allah (PBUH). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was asking from your point of view. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He is a sinner. .. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Can't a non-Ahmadi be a true Muslim? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir! It is not that a non-Ahmadi cannot be a true Muslim, that is not our point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, isn't the one who is non-Ahmadi a true Muslim? 1702 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted, sir, that those people only deny one order. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I didn't ask you the reason. Because of that denial, I am asking, are they not real Muslims then? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He is not a real infidel. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not calling him an infidel, I want to go into a bigger category. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Look, a real Muslim is one who (believes in) the real meaning... a real infidel... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you have told me. Look, I, I am all, I am a great sinner, but suppose I try to fulfill all the commands of Allah Almighty, fulfill all the good things, whatever good things a Muslim can do, whatever is the command of Allah Almighty, I will do it. But I will say that I do not consider Mirza Sahib as a prophet or Muhaddith. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is not considered a part of faith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... Then I... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is not a part of faith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then I am not a real...look, the question is, I am not a real Muslim, because you say that I have not obeyed the command of Allah Almighty. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted, sir, that we do not consider that person to be a part of faith... So when it is not a part of faith, then it is not a part of beliefs. So now why should we say for this that the person is...we will say that there has been a weakness in him. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, when there is a weakness, then one is not a true Muslim, right? I am asking you about a "perfect" Muslim? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: True... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he is not, sir? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The stand we are taking is that Mirza Sahib is not considered a reformer or of the faith. Due to the denial of Mirza Sahib's claim, the same position will occur. You can take the reverse of it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, whether it is denial or acceptance, it becomes the same thing. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, "denial" and "acceptance" are contradictory, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, by denying, do I become true? I cannot become true. By accepting, I can become true. Look. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It will be the reverse of that, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir, that is what it will be. So, for me to be a true Muslim, if I develop all the virtues in the world within myself, even then, if I do not consider Mirza Sahib a Muhaddith or Prophet, in the sense that you say, then I am not a true Muslim? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is not a question of not believing in Mirza Sahib; if you deny even one thing of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), any command of the Prophet... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From your point of view, is it the command of Allah and the Messenger that Mirza Sahib... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely, sir! Whoever denies the command of the Messenger, I will not consider him truly so. 1704 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27th, 1974) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So is it your point of view that it is the command of Allah and the Prophet...? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Because of the command, not because of Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, Mirza Sahib... This is the command of Allah and the Prophet, I want to clarify the position that Mirza Sahib is the Promised Messiah, believe in it. And I say that I do not believe. So can I not be a true Muslim? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Because... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Leave out "because". Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tell me the "because" later. First, look, Mirza Sahib... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: There is a fear of distortion. That is this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Mirza Sahib! Please, I am making a request that you answer the question that I ask first. Then, by all means, elaborate on it for an hour. What are the reasons? I only asked you this, and I have said it three or four times, that if a person is pious, a pious servant of Allah, a saint, a great man, fulfills all the commands of Allah, but according to you, he does not accept one command, according to you, that Mirza Sahib, who is the Promised Messiah or Muhaddith, should also be believed in, then according to your point of view, is he not a true Muslim? First, say whether he is or is not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, you never answer. I will have to request the Speaker Sahib to have you answer first, then elaborate. Say whether a true Muslim can be or not? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1705 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I was submitting that instead of bringing Mirza Sahib, what is my stand with you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have understood that. I have already submitted that if a person, suppose I say like this, a person accepts all the commands of Allah... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: And does not accept one command? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And does not accept one command. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Sir! Cannot happen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he cannot be a true Muslim. The second question is, do you believe that it is Allah Almighty's command that Mirza Sahib is the Promised Messiah, believe in him. Whoever does not believe, cannot be a true Muslim? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: If it is not fully proven to him, then he can be. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Leave aside "fully proven" for now. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just yes, it is done, suppose it is done. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Fully proven is done? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is done. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, then absolutely not, because he denies it while understanding a truth. Then no. But if he does not believe without it being fully proven, then there is no harm, absolutely no harm. Then this Muslim... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, tell me this, are there any true Muslims among the Muslims who are present now and do not believe in Mirza Sahib, meaning non-Ahmadis, from your point of view? 1706 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Very, very much. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Real? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, very. Why don't you...? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Don't you obey Allah's command? Don't you see this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir! We absolutely obey. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they are not obeying that one command of Allah. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Look, you have left that, you have. You said that it is a useless thing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I say that one command of Allah is not being obeyed. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You have left that, that yes, no, my answer to that is that he is not a true Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Now you have taken Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I tell you that the members sitting in this assembly, if the proof has not been completed upon them, then it has not been completed upon anyone in the world, because they have been listening to this for a month. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That all the arguments of Mirza Sahib have come. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely not, if the proof is not complete, we will definitely not say that they have become non-Muslims or they have become infidels. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, the proof has been completed. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1707 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Not at all, this is absolutely the correct point of view that if the argument is not complete on them, it is absolutely possible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if it has been completed? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, then it is fine. So, I have already explained what is meant by completion of the argument, that after acknowledging a truth, that this is a truth, he says that "I will not accept it," then it is indeed a bad thing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, please tell me that when Mirza Sahib uses the word "Muslim" in his writings and he does not mean "Ahmadi" by it, then in his opinion, are these people real Muslims or not? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: In some places they will be real, in some places they will not be, it depends on the condition of that person. Because when he says that "the one who does not believe in me," then there are hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. So, we cannot make a decision merely because of this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look here now, his son says at one place here, whom you reject, but you see what he is saying. Whether this is correct or not, you assess it yourself. But he says this: "It appears that the Messiah..." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: God knows. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, I am coming to that, there are many complications in it. A voice: Allah Almighty knows best. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, look here, God knows best, but what Mirza Sahib says... 1708 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 27th, 1974) A voice: And neither has God obligated us to stand with this measure. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just submitting this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Does Mirza Mahmud Sahib have some decree? A voice: God has not entrusted us with breaking people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Mirza Bashir Ahmad Sahib, Mirza Bashir Ahmad Sahib is saying that: "Hazrat Masih Maud also sometimes had the thought that people might be deceived by seeing the word 'Muslim' in my writings regarding non-Ahmadis. Therefore, you have written such words regarding non-Ahmadis in some places as a remedy, that those people who claim Islam, so that wherever the word 'Muslim' is, it should be understood as a claimant of Islam, not a true Muslim." It has come in Tohfa Golarviyya, on their page 18, by Mirza Sahib. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Neither is the writing of Mirza Bashir Ahmad Sahib an argument for us, nor is it correct, nor should it be presented before us. We are against his point of view. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he says that Mirza Sahib has used it sometimes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, he is wrong. Bring Mirza Sahib's writing before me, then I will submit something. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will bring that too. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am present for that. I do not consider Mirza Bashir Ahmad Sahib as an argument. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1709 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say that: "Therefore, in some places, as a remedy, you have written such words about non-Ahmadis as those people who claim to be Muslims." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is because of such writings of his that we are against him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This "Tohfa Golڑwiyah", on page 18, he writes... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: What does he say, Sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "... who claim to be Muslims. Then other sects who claim Islam will have to be completely abandoned." He says: "Those who claim Islam will have to be completely abandoned." Page 18. He has written. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Page 18, you said, Sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's what's written there, I don't know if the edition is different. Mr. Chairman: Should we close for today? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just one or two questions, Sir, on this point. Mr. Chairman: All right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please tell me, who is an apostate? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Who is an apostate?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, in Islam? 1710 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 27th, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In the term "Murtad," it means that a person who, once accepting Islam, then abandons that Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this any particular kind of Islam, or general Islam? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The Islam brought by Muhammad, peace be upon him, the Islam brought by the Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, this Hakim Sahib, he was included in the Ahmadiyya community, he took the oath of allegiance. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Can I submit something before that? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let me ask this question first, then you… Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I think that question will not arise, the question will automatically be diverted. And this word, its literal meaning is that, considering one thing, believing in one thing, choosing one path, a person abandons it, returns from it, this is literally. Ch. Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman, Sir, on a point of explanation. Janab, the witness is here to answer the questions of the Attorney-General and, if there is no question, then, I think, he need not explain anything. Therefore, he should hear the question of the honourable Attorney-General and then he should speak in explanation or in reply of that question Sir. If there is no question, then he is not supposed to give any speech or explanation. Mr. Chairman: The Attorney-General will raise this objection, if any. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I asked you a simple question earlier, what is the meaning of Murtad in Islam? I am not going towards the literal meanings. We know the literal meaning as "renegade" in English. One who goes to the other side of the religion... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1711 Go, you say that he crossed the floor. He also became a renegade? Such things keep happening. Those are literal meanings. The common apostate, whose punishment is stoning to death, I am saying "apostate" in that sense. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: An apostate whose punishment is prescribed in the Holy Quran is liable to be killed. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have not found it anywhere in the Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it not liable to be killed in Islam? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this not for an apostate? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And what is an apostate? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have submitted, if it is in the technical sense, then it means that a person accepts Islam and then abandons it, he is called an apostate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So then Abdul Haleem, he was a Muslim before as well. Then Ahmadi. Then he came out of Mirza Sahib. They did not believe him to be a prophet. They had a dispute. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, this is not the incident. The incident is that Abdul Hakeem Khan was a doctor from Patiala. He was a Muslim. He also believed in Mirza Sahib. After that, he adopted a belief that was against Islam. He used to say that a Muslim can be one who does not believe in Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. This was his belief. Because of this belief, Mirza Sahib cut off ties with him, he... 1712 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 expelled from the Jamaat and used the word "apostate" for them, that a person who does not believe in Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, may God bless him and his family, does not consider him a part of faith, and thinks that salvation is possible without him, is not a Muslim. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is in the sense that Mirza Sahib used to say that I am Muhammad... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Became فنافی الرسول. One who does not believe in Muhammad ﷺ. One who doesn't believe in me doesn't believe in Muhammad ﷺ." They used to recite this too, didn't they? So weren't they caught in this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, in a commentary on the Quran that he wrote, he said that it is enough to say "La ilaha illallah" and there is no need to say "Muhammad Rasul Allah." These are his beliefs. Mirza Sahib has refuted these ideas in great detail, and Mirza Sahib has written an entire book on this, that Abdul Hakeem Khan's ideas were against Islam. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did Mirza Sahib say this, or did Abdul Hakeem Sahib also say this himself? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, Abdul Hakeem Sahib himself. This is printed. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He said this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, this is his interpretation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it also true that he was with Mirza Sahib before? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. 1713 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And when Mirza Sahib claimed prophethood, then, did a big debate happen about it in Lahore? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, no debate happened with him regarding prophethood, no debate happened with him about it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And after his saying that, did he say "Do not use the word 'Muhaddis' for me?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, this is not that Abdul Hakeem, that Abdul Hakeem is someone else, he is from Lahore, not from Kalanur. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. He was from Patiala. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is why I used the words "Doctor" and such for him in the beginning so that his... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was declared an apostate because of this reason, not because he left Mirza Sahib's allegiance? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Who? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mirza Sahib expelled him from the community for this reason. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he first brought allegiance, then left it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, he first pledged allegiance. Mirza Sahib removed him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Despite having pledged allegiance? NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 27th, 1974 1714 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, because they held this belief. Mirza Sahib could not tolerate that anyone should use such words about Muhammad Rasulullah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that salvation could be possible without believing in this great Prophet. This was the reason why he expelled him from the community and used the word "apostate." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, Sahibzada Sahib is giving another reason, that they denied Mirza Sahib. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, Sahibzada Sahib has many virtues. Regarding the belief of Abdul Hakeem, I would like to say that, according to him, a person can be saved even after apostatizing from Islam due to some of his monotheism, and such a person can also be saved who is a monotheist among Jews, Christians, or Aryans. He is a denier of Islam and an enemy of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). So, he would have the same opinion. This is, sir, Abdul Hakeem Khan, about whom the word "apostate" was used, and it was absolutely correct. One cannot be saved by being an enemy of Muhammad Rasulullah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mirza Sahib could not tolerate this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I read this out to you at that time. You said that this Ahmadi "Ahmadia movement stands in the same relation to Islam in which Christianity stood to Judaism." ("Review of Religions") This has already been stated by Mr. Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib himself about the Ahmadiyya movement in these words. This book you... Common... This book is printed. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1715 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I had requested that this be clarified, because you have studied it. Is this Maulana Sahib's own writing? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is his own writing. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is his own writing? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is written in it, you can see. Will you look at it? Mr. Chairman: The librarian may hand over the book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please hand over the book. Further, Mr. Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Review of Religions." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Review of Religions," yes sir, the "Review of Religions" English, 1906. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! Is there a footnote below it as well? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To the librarian) This "Mubahisa Rawalpindi," please show this to him. (To the witness) This seems to be your common publication. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir. "Review of Religions..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is its reference, its mention, this publication of yours, is common, it is not theirs. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: We will note it down. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, note it down, on both sides... the publication is on both sides, there are signatures on both sides. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Are there? 1716 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [27th August, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Both have signatures on it. Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib also has signatures. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, what I am requesting is that Maulana Sahib used to be the editor, and at that time, writings of others were also published. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, it is written on it that he said this for himself. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That's what I want to see, that I ascertain... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You note it down. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Then I will tell you his opinion, what Maulana Sahib's beliefs are, and what his point of view is. But until that writing of his is in front of me, it will be difficult to say anything. Mr. Chairman: Is that all? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the next subject I shall take up in the morning. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is permitted to leave, for tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. Ch. Jehangir Ali: Mr. Chairman, before the Delegation leaves, the members want to know that the honourable member of the Delegation, who is replying on behalf of Maulana Sadar-ud-Din, they want to know his introduction, and whether it is true that he is the son of Hakim Nur-ud-Din, Khalifa-e-Awal? 1717 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: Yes, say it. Say it, sir, what the honorable members are asking. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Khaksar's name is Abdul Manan Omar. My father's name is Hakim Noor-ud-Din. First, I passed the Maulvi Fazil examination from Punjab University. After that, I went to Aligarh University. I stayed there for six years, and from there, I passed my M.A. examination. In 1957, I was one of the three-member delegation from Pakistan to the International Seminar at Harvard University. I was born in 1910. And recently, I have been the editor of the "Encyclopedia of Islam," which is being published by the Punjab University. Now I have retired from there. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Maulana Hakim Noor-ud-Din, who was the first Caliph of your group? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, sir. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Okay. Mr. Chairman: That is all. The Delegation is permitted to leave; to report tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. The honourable members may keep sitting. DISCUSSION.. Maulana Abdul Haq: Mr. Chairman, the delegation has stated that in the Quran, the word "man" Mr. Chairman: Just wait a moment. Maulana Abdul Haq (Arabic) Since they said that there is no mention of punishment for apostasy in the Quran, then this is a blessed verse and Imam Bukhari has narrated it regarding the punishment for apostasy. Mr. Chairman: You will answer them tomorrow as well, and also the verse that has been recited. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood also answers the hadiths. Mr. Chairman: He will answer that tomorrow as well. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Please tell us whether Sir Zafarullah Sahib had any part in sending those who went to the seminar or not? Mr. Chairman: This question should not be allowed. This should be processed through the Attorney-General. (To the delegation) You may leave, please leave. You are free, you are free, leave. Ten o'clock in the morning. (The Delegation left the Chamber.) The Special Committee of the whole House adjourned to meet at ten of the clock, in the morning, on Wednesday, the 28th of August, 1974. No. 13 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT (Contains Nos. 1-21) Wednesday, the 28th August, 1974 CONTENTS Pages 1. Cross-examination of the Lahori Group Delegation 1721-1782 2. Submission of written Replies to Questions 1782-1783 3. Nodding by the witness in Reply to Questions... 1783 4. General Debate after the Cross-examination 1783-1784 5. Samadani Tribunal's Report 1784-1785 6. Written Statements by the Members 1785-1786 7. Condolence on Murder of Amir Muhammad Khan........ 1786 8. Cross-examination of the Lahori Group Delegation-concluded. 1786-1855 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD. PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD No. 13 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Wednesday, August 28, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Wednesday, August 28, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at ten o'clock in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم Mr. Chairman: Should we call them? They may be called. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION (Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, Attorney-General of Pakistan): Sahibzada Sahib! Yesterday you told us about many things, but I feel, and most members of the Assembly also feel, that the position on many things is not clear. Therefore, if you could briefly clarify the position on certain things, because we have already received some testimony that contradicts them on certain points. For example, what is the position of Hazrat Isa (Jesus)? Is he a Shari'ah-based prophet or a non-Shari'ah-based prophet? 1722 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar (Witness, Jamaat Ahmadiyya, Lahore): Our point of view regarding Hazrat Isa (Jesus) is that he was given a book and he was a direct prophet without following Hazrat Musa (Moses), but in the technical sense that he was given a complete, modern, perfect Sharia, we do not consider him such a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He was a non-Sharia prophet. But besides that, was he also given the authority to make some changes in that Sharia? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So the position is that he was non-Sharia, but he had the authority to amend, repeal, or make some addition to the Sharia of Hazrat Isa...? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: In the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty says: (Arabic) So that I may some of those things... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning he was given that authority. Now tell me, a person who claims to be a "Muhaddis" and you consider that claim to be true. I am not using the word prophet, because you are saying so. And he receives such revelation as was received by the prophets. From Allah, and it is as pure, and he also believes in it, and after that revelation, if he issues such orders that cause division in the nation, will you approve of those orders? Will that be a new law or not, like Isa brought a new law? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Mr. Speaker, such a law cannot be enforced in Sharia at all. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORE GROUP DELEGATE LIVIN But if someone interprets the Sharia, explains it, elaborates on it, then he has the right to do so, and all the scholars of the Ummah, all the commentators have acknowledged this right. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If the scholars of the Muslims, who are their elders and saints, have explained it, and they have a consensus on it, and if this Muhaddith gives a different explanation from them. I am talking about Mirza Sahib so that he doesn't come. So, will you consider Mirza Sahib's explanation binding? Is this explanation correct? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If the person presenting against it is merely a scholar..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that if all the scholars for thirteen hundred years.... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In my knowledge, there is no such incident in my knowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if for thirteen hundred years if this... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is a theoretical question. In my opinion this is a hypothesis. In my opinion, there is no such thing on which scholars have unanimously agreed upon for thirteen hundred years. For this, I will present a saying of Hazrat Ahmad bin Hanbal that "Whoever claims Ijma is saying something wrong." I have presented this saying of Hazrat Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal. And at least no incident is in my knowledge that the entire Ummah has Ijma on any such issue for the entire thirteen hundred years. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if it is their opinion that the meaning of the verse "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" is that no prophet of any kind can come, was there any doubt about this before, before Mirza Sahib that... 1724 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I think if I take a little of your time in this regard, we shouldn't get caught up in verbal disputes because words, you know, a word in one language, its meaning is expressed by another word in another language. So if we first determine what is meant by the word "Prophet"... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The meaning is the same as what the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said: "There is no prophet after me." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying the same meaning... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is what... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not talking about poets. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I mean, it's an Arabic word, right? So let's put it in Urdu... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so I say in Arabic that "No prophet will come after me." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Who is called a prophet?" Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What he meant, that was his meaning. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That's what I want to ask, what is meant by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in that person's view? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whoever claims that he has come from Allah, Allah has appointed him, Allah has given him revelation. That revelation is as pure as the revelations that used to come upon the prophets. Then he repeatedly says, "I am a prophet, a messenger, a prophet, a messenger." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: This explanation was not in my knowledge anywhere. No nation, individual, or prophet has ever been interpreted in the way you have described. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You tell me, what is its meaning? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: The meaning of "Nabi," the word "Nabi" has been used in two meanings in Islamic literature. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, when the Holy Prophet said that there would be no prophet after me. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In what sense did he say that? You tell me that. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: When the Holy Prophet used this word, its explanation is not found there. The people of the Ummah have explained it. For this, I request what was done. So, one usage of "Nabi" is the real usage, and it means a person who brings a new Sharia from God Almighty and either abrogates it or the previous commandments of Sharia, some parts of the Sharia that came before it. Or he is not a follower of the prophet of the previous Sharia, and he does not receive this grace in following that prophet. This is the only truth that has been made of this word. This is the real meaning of the word "Nabi." But in the Arabic language, the word "Nabi" is derived from "Bana," which means to inform. So, if a person receives knowledge from God and gives some news, then literally, not really. But, not in a technical sense, merely in a literal sense and in a figurative manner, in a metaphorical manner, This word "prophet" is used for the non-prophet, who is not a true prophet, for which I Also mentioned yesterday, Maulana Rumi says in his Masnavi: O he is the prophet of his time, O more That prophet who is: O he is the prophet of his time, O more That Pir who is, who does the work of guidance, who does the work of leadership, who is of God and the Messenger Who calls to, who is a follower, he too has used the word "prophet" in that literal sense, in that metaphorical sense, in that unreal sense. And he was not an infidel, he was A very righteous man. And he did not deny the finality of prophethood. He believed in the finality of prophethood. Then he says that, he says to his disciple that you should try: Inside meet C So that prophethood is found By staying within the community, so that you may attain prophethood. This prophethood is not true prophethood, this Are the same literal meanings, these are the same metaphorical meanings, the same are its unreal meanings..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Enough, that's enough. Mr. Mirza Sahib! I only said that a lot There are questions to ask you and today is our last day and there is no time after that. Mr. Chairman: I would request the Attorney-General to put definite questions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I have put definite questions. Mr. Chairman: And I will also request the witness to make short and definite answers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is not in a position to answer any question definitely. That I am sure. Mr. Chairman: No. no. we have to confine ourselves to the questions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will ask him again. (To the witness) So does that mean that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib was a non-real Ummah Prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I submitted, "Ummah Prophet" was never used by Mirza Sahib. He definitely used the words "Ummah and Prophet". Mr. Chairman: I think this question is answered, because what the witness has stated, every Musalman must keep a copy of Lughat (dictionary) in his pocket. This is what he says that one must have a copy of the dictionary in his pocket. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He said that from one aspect I am a prophet, from one aspect I am "Ummah". Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Its explanation is in his own words. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so does that mean that you consider him a prophet in this sense that from one aspect he is a prophet and from one aspect he is Ummah. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And what is its explanation? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Leave the explanation. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: First answer this question. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted that he is a prophet from one aspect and a follower from another, which they acknowledge. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You agree with this, you also acknowledge it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, we also acknowledge it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then after that, tell me what happened to him. Look, let the answer to the first question come, then after that, you can elaborate on what the explanation is. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: So what is its explanation? Mirza Sahib says: "Listen to this, that he is called both a follower and a prophet..." The same words, "both a follower and a prophet." "He is called both a follower and a prophet, this indicates that both qualities of following and prophethood will be found in him, just as in a Muhaddith, both qualities are necessary. But the possessor of complete prophethood has only one quality of prophethood. In short, Muhaddithiyat is colored in both ways. That's why God has given me this name in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya." So the explanation is that "follower and prophet" means "Muhaddith." "A follower and prophet is not a true prophet, he does not possess any kind of prophethood. It is not something that he is, like, I am a prophet of this kind and not of that kind." Follower and prophet means non-prophet, it means Muhaddith. I have presented Mirza Sahib's statement before you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me also read out another statement to you: "If the one who receives news of the unseen from God Almighty is not called a prophet, then tell me what name should he be called? If you say that he should be called a Muhaddith..." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1729 I should say that the meaning of "Tahdees" (narration) is not the expression of the unseen in any dictionary. But the meaning of prophethood is the expression of the matter of the unseen." You must have read this many times in "Correction of a Mistake." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I have read it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Good. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This has already happened. I will submit again. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this because the position is not clear. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely, look, if you give me a chance, then I (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: I will request .......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You also say that it is not necessary for a prophet to be a lawgiver, as you were saying. Mr. Chairman: I will request let us get out of this. This Lughat (dictionary) will not solve the problem. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let him answer again this point. Mr. Chairman: All right. Ch. Jahangir Ali: A point of explanation, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: To Attorney-General. Ch. Jahangir Ali: I can address the Chair, Sir. I cannot address the Attorney-General. 1730 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 Mr. Chairman: You can talk to Attorney-General or you can send me a chit. If I find it, then you can.......... Ch. Jahangir Ali: No, Sir, my point of explanation should be known to the members of this House. Mr. Chairman: No, that method we have been dealing, trying and we have been practising for the last month. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Sir, I only want to submit this. Mr. Chairman: All the points shall be told to me in private..... Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: That the witness... Mr. Chairman: ......or we will decide those matters in the absence of the members of the Delegation. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: No, Sir! I wanted to submit it for the information of the delegation as well. Mr. Chairman: No, don't inform them, inform me. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: That they should be answered in such a language, in the manner in which they preach to the public... Mr. Chairman: No, no, one second... Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: If they do it in this way among the public... Mr. Chairman: Chaudhry Sahib! Chaudhry Sahib.... Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: If they preach, then I understand. Mr. Chairman: Chaudhry Jahangir Ali, Chaudhry Jahangir Ali! Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: That no one will understand their religion. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1731 Mr. Chairman: Ch. Jahangir Ali, this is uncalled for. Ch. Jahangir Ali: All right, Sir. Mr. Chairman: This is wrong. You make a point and then say: "All right." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have the right to reply. Mr. Chairman: (To Ch. Jahangir Ali) No, this is a violation of your own rules that you have formed. Okay, Sir! You have made your point, you said "All right" afterwards. That's up to you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have every right to reply. I would only request them to be as brief as possible. Mr. Chairman: When the Chair has taken notice of it, the Chair has remarked it, that's why then with you... the entire House has the right to say, to put any question. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! I was submitting that a word has both a technical meaning as well as a literal meaning. For example, there is the word "Salat". From this, when we say the word "Salat", the common Muslim understands its meaning in the same way as we offer prayers five times a day. But when you search for it in the dictionary, then at that time its meaning will not be that he says Allahu Akbar and raises his hands and then ties them on his chest or on his navel, this meaning, or bows and prostrates and stands or sits in Attahiyat, these meanings are not found in the dictionary for "Salat". But the word "Salat" is a technical term which means exactly what we mean by praying, similarly in the languages of the world there are many words that have different literal meanings and different technical meanings. 1732 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, look at this, Sahibzada Sahib! We have already discussed this matter yesterday, You explained this in detail and I also mentioned, we also talked about "lion", and the real lion and the poetry that comes as an example. If you have just come to this assembly, I ask you this question, this is the Parliament of Pakistan, people are here. A person is said to be a loudspeaker. If he says "I am a loudspeaker," then there is no doubt left as to who he is. Loudspeaker will not be taken to mean, although loudspeaker is also called "speaker." Similarly, a person says that "revelation is coming to me, it is pure, from Allah. I believe in it just like the rest of the prophets. And he says, "I am a prophet, I am a messenger." Then after that to say that "no, this is not what it means, go to the dictionary and see, its meaning is something else." This confusion, that's why I was mentioning it to you. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: that its clarification is needed. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I mentioned that you said that speaker is only used for one person here, and that is absolutely correct. But if there is a place where speaker is also known in this meaning and in another word as well... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you are saying it correctly. I want to say that when a person is a Muhaddith (narrator of Hadith) and you consider him a Muhaddith, that is a big status for him and those are his followers, he has formed his own group, he is taking allegiance from them and he keeps saying again and again that look! So much is being revealed to me. And such pure revelation is being revealed. ... and I believe in it just as I believe in the revelations that come to some prophets." And sometimes he says: "I am a messenger, I am a prophet, I am a messenger, I am a prophet." Then you say, no, this is what Maulana Rumi said about the prophet, that thing has come up. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, we do not say that, he himself says that, we do not say that. This reference to Maulana Rumi that I presented, I did not present it, he himself presented it, he himself says it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will then ask you... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This I have... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will then present some more references to you. After that, it would be better if you could shed some light on this matter. When he says: "And I swear by God, in whose hand is my life, that He has sent me. And He has named me a prophet. And He has called me by the name of the True Promised One and He has shown great signs for my confirmation which reach up to three hundred thousand." A person takes an oath, swears by God, and you understand that he is also truthful, and after that you say that no, this is poetry. Can you explain this to us? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have already... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says that God has sent me. My name is named Nabi. I am called by the name of Masih Maud. For my confirmation, big signs have appeared which reach up to millions. And then he further states: "I can stand in the House of God and swear that the holy revelation that descends upon me is the word of that God who revealed His word to Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad." So, due to the confusion that arises from this, the contradiction that we perceive from your statement, we are requesting you to clarify it. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Sir! I will request again that when there is such a circle in which a word is used in two meanings, then we will have to consider in what sense a person uses a word in one place, and in what sense the same person uses the same word in another place, because both types of things are present in the literature. I had submitted that one definition of Prophethood exists in our literature that a prophet is one who possesses a book, and this, and that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He has said that it is not necessary. In "Ek Ghalati ka Azala" he said that it is not necessary to have Sharia." That is why I am saying that after reading to you, your definition is correct. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Sir! I present the reference of "Tafsir Mazhari" at your service. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Right now both, I am talking about Mirza Sahib's statement. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, "Tafsir Mazhari" is Mirza Sahib's book. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I mean, you are talking about Mirza Sahib, about whose... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Look, I am submitting... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...about whose prophethood is in question. Look, this other thing is irrelevant. Either talk about God, talk about the Quran, talk about Hadith. Leave Maulana Room, leave him, because only that is binding on us, and nothing else is binding. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mr. Chairman! I am not submitting that Maulana... A Member: Point of order, Sir. My submission is that what he has read out now... A Member: Yes. Mr. Chairman: This is no point of order. Mr. Chairman: This is no point of order. A Member: Explain what... Mr. Chairman: Explanation... A Member: ...he, he has read out. Mr. Chairman: He, he can do that. A Member: Explain it further. Mr. Chairman: On, on this topic, he can say to the chair. You have followed the procedure yourself for a month. Ask them this. 170 INGS DIAZONAL ANDORMIDLI UT EAKIK ZAPY [August 2013, 1974 (Intervention) Mr. Chairman: Ask them this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is saying it himself, he is talking himself. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! When I presented Maulana Roomi or I presented the sayings of Hazrat Syed Abdul Qadir Jilani before you, I was trying to clarify that these things are in the literature of Islam or Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you said it in detail yesterday in this regard, you stated. I submitted on this and you might remember that in the gathering where these both words are used. As you just said that in terminological sense and in original meaning, it has been used in both. So some misunderstanding also arose. And you yourself said that yes, Mirza Sahib wrote then he said that because some people are getting angry with me, they have misunderstood, therefore wherever I have used the word prophet, it should be considered repealed. And the word Muhaddis should be used in its place and he wrote, “Amend it in my books”. Mirza Sahib also stated this. You said yes, this is correct. After that I submitted that despite knowing that misunderstanding occurs, there are two words, one word has two meanings, and they do not mean that he is a real prophet, misunderstanding arose among people, he said that due to this misunderstanding, correct it, rectify it, this is what I have received." After that I submitted that again and again he used the word "Prophet", knowing that people get misunderstood, then you said that he had received the order from Allah, he was compelled. CROSS-EXAMINATION UP THE LACROINE MASSAGE Mr. Abdul Mannan Umer, with respect, I would submit that neither I said it, nor did Mirza Sahib say: "I made a mistake." What is this? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If not a mistake, then simplicity. What was the reason that among the people... Mr. Abdul Mannan Umer: Yes, yes, that's right, that's correct, why did this happen? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No... Mr. Abdul Mannan Umer: That it happened by mistake, Mirza Sahib never said this. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib never said... Mr. Abdul Mannan Umer: And neither is it a mistake. I submit... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He said it out of simplicity. Mr. Abdul Mannan Umer: Yes, I submit, I have submitted this that when a word is being used in two different meanings, and the two different meanings are also contradictory, like the word "lion," yesterday you also gave an example that a person will be a lion in one sense, due to his bravery, but in one sense, he will not be a lion due to the absence of his ferocity. These are two very clear things. The same thing is in Mirza Sahib's sayings that there are two interpretations of the word "Prophet," both contradictory interpretations. When Mirza Sahib keeps one interpretation in mind, he confesses. When the other interpretation comes before him, he denies. These two things are present in all his writings... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You... Mr. Abdul Mannan Umer: Because in the Ummah, let me submit... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 128th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I draw your attention to a couple of more references. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! Allow me to submit something. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You may. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yours. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. 1730 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: So, I was submitting that the word "Nabi" (Prophet) and the word "Muhaddith" - not just within the Mirza Sahib's community - but within the Ummah (Muslim community), these words have been used in two completely contradictory meanings. Just as I gave the example of "Sher" (lion), similarly the word Nabi has been used in two meanings within the Ummah, and still is. One meaning is the true one, and the other is: the one upon whom the unseen is revealed, meaning God Almighty sends down His word upon him. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are correct, so then why do you protest this, hesitate that he was not a Nabi, in the other meaning, like the people of Rabwah say, you should also say it, why do you insist on it that we do not call him Nabi in any way? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If you allow me to finish the answer, then whatever you say, it is fine. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: So, because there is conversation in between, references are presented one after another, their objection was very appropriate that Sir! It should be explained, this matter, that explanation is not even finished yet when another irrelevant matter comes up. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LADONUKUJDE DE CADA DIAS Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't explain anything. You just lecture, which becomes a nuisance. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I don't lecture. The thing is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please explain it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The thing is, in a short time, we have to discuss as many things as possible. So, my submission was that the confusion you have presented to us is that somewhere in Mirza Sahib's writings there is an admission of prophethood, and somewhere in Mirza Sahib's writings there is a denial of prophethood. What is the answer to this confusion? This is what I have understood from your conversation. I have replied to it by saying that this word is actually used in two different, contradictory meanings in the literature of the Jamaat, the Ummah, and the Muslims. One is its literal use, and the other is its real use. And similarly, the word "Muhaddith" has also been used in two meanings. One is its literal use, and the other is its technical use. Where Mirza Sahib has said "I am a prophet," he said it in the sense of the meaning of Muhaddith. And where he has said "I am not a prophet," he has denied it according to the technical and real meanings of prophet. And when the situation changes, the reason changes, the aspect changes, then using another word is not prohibited. In the same way, I had said that this is not something unique to Mirza Sahib. This thing exists in the literature of the Ummah, and other individuals of the Ummah have been using it. Similarly, the literal meaning of the word "Muhaddith" is not to reveal the unseen. The revelation of the unseen is in the word "Nabi" (prophet). So, when they talk about the dictionary, they say... 1740 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug., 1974 "I am a prophet in a literal sense, but not in a technical sense." And when using the word "Muhaddith," he says, "I am not a Muhaddith in a literal sense, but I am a Muhaddith in the sense of the term prevalent in the Ummah." This, sir, is the solution to the problem that there is affirmation in some places and denial in others. This affirmation and this denial are not contradictory in the sense that a person is making contradictory statements. Rather, it is based on the fact that there are two terms and two types of words prevalent in the Ummah, and their context is different. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mr. Chairman: Next. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then you didn't explain that when he says while taking an oath: "And I swear by God, in whose hand is my life, that He sent me and He named me a prophet." Did Allah Almighty name him prophet and send him in a literal sense? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes, in a literal sense, figuratively. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is his... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely, in the same sense that "Thou art the prophet of the time," it is in the same sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Didn't Allah Almighty intend to make him a prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The prophet came, it is in the same sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And when he was called the Messiah, and me the Promised Messiah, did it also mean that he was not a prophet? CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So yesterday when you said that wherever Mirza Sahib says "Nabi," it means "non-prophet." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, non-prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have, in a clear manner... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, in the true sense, in the terminological sense, they are non-prophets. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, now please state this. (Pause) Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: We will clarify, that is... Mr. Chairman: No, the witness cannot reply unless a question is put. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Maulana has given me a reference of Mirza Sahib which he will read and recite to you. It is in Arabic, I do not know it. And he says: "Wherever I swear to something, then there is no poetry in it, it is the real matter." This is what the Maulana has explained to me. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The reference is this, sir, he writes: (Arabic) He says that the statement which is emphasized with an oath, the oath indicates that this matter is common, obvious, there will be no interpretation in it. And if there is room for interpretation, then what is the benefit of taking an oath, what is the benefit of swearing an oath. So... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mr. Speaker! Where did you read this reference from? Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Hamamate al Bushra Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. So, the submission is that Mirza Sahib himself has clarified this point in this place that, "Brothers! When I swear an oath and say something, then trust this oath on my words which I am presenting in words, and accept it." What are Mirza Sahib's oaths? Mirza Sahib once took an oath, going to the mosque. That oath is: "I swear by God that I do not claim real prophethood." This is their oath. This is true in every way. It is correct according to this reference. And we do not interpret it in any way. I will tell you a reference from Hazrat Sahib, Mirza Sahib, the matter will become clear: (Arabic) "That in the meanings in which the previous prophets were called prophets, whenever you see the word 'prophet' for me, then do not understand it in those meanings. All the prophets, every individual of Ramza prophets, in the meanings in which they were prophets, if the word prophet has been used for me anywhere, then I am not a prophet in those meanings." This is Mirza Sahib's statement. And I would like to submit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sahibzada Sahib! Here you are talking about your... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That his last book is "Haqiqat-ul-Wahi..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I was submitting to you that you said that he swore and said that "I am not a prophet." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LABOR GROUP Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he swore an oath and said that I am a prophet. So we are saying that even if Mirza Sahib says something without swearing, we believe him. But tell me, what does he say? He says that… Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Both things are correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And I swear by the God in whose hand is my life, that He has sent me. He has not named me..." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, that's what happened. I submitted that there is a real meaning to it. This oath is not in that sense. Sir! He has stated that "I am in that sense, God has sent me." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He himself says: "When I swear, there is no question of interpretation." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: There is interpretation, no sir, he himself is saying. The word is present in the oath, I am not saying it on my own. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, here he says that "My name is Nabi." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "God has sent me." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, God has sent him, whoever is sent by God is also a reformer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is a prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, he is not a prophet. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Don't you call him a reformer? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, whoever is sent by God is a prophet, it is not necessary that he be a prophet. Look, I submit, it is in "Tafsir Mazhari": Only such a prophet is called a messenger. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, leave them, tell us by translating this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! This will be translated in context. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, the context is this, it is his statement. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, absolutely correct statement. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, and in this it is: "And I swear by that God in whose hand is my life that He has sent me. He has named me a prophet." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And he has called me the Promised Messiah." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And He has manifested great signs in confirmation of me, which amount to three hundred thousand." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: (Arabic) That "The word prophet that God Almighty has used for me, the name He has given me as prophet, is a metaphorical name, a metaphorical word." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1745 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are making this interpretation, aren't you? You are interpreting it; it is not here. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, Mirza Sahib himself is saying it, I am not saying it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is not saying it here anywhere. The question is this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Will you find everything there or will you look at the entire book of that person? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, the thing is that at one place Mirza Sahib says, "When I say something under oath, there is no room for interpretation in it." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: There is no interpretation, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so you say: "We will go somewhere else for interpretation..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, we will not go anywhere. You say that one who is divinely appointed... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, leave it, I will give you some more references. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please consider them so that perhaps we can reach some clarification. Mirza Sahib has said at one place: Do you not know that the merciful and gracious Lord has named our Prophet as the Seal of the Prophets without any exception? And our Prophet explained it to those who seek... 1746 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug., 1974 He has clearly stated in his saying "La Nabiyya Ba'di" (No prophet after me). And if we consider the advent of any prophet after our Prophet to be permissible, it would be as if we consider the opening of the door of revelation after it has been closed to be permissible. And this is not correct, as is evident to Muslims. And how can our Messenger have a successor prophet, when revelation has ceased after his death, and Allah Almighty has finalized the prophets upon us? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Absolutely correct. I will read further to you now... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, please. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "The Holy Prophet (PBUH) repeatedly stated that no prophet will come after me, and the Hadith "La Nabiyya Ba'di" was so famous that no one disputed its authenticity. When I said that the consensus of the Muslims was that no other prophet can come and no one disputed its authenticity: And every word of the Holy Quran is definitive. With its verse "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen," it confirms that in reality, prophethood has ended with our Prophet." This is also a statement of Mirza Sahib himself. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he further states: "Every wise person can understand that God is truthful in His promise, and whatever promise has been made in the verse "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen," and whatever explanation has been given in the Hadiths, now Gabriel after the death CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1747 The Messenger of Allah has been forbidden from bringing the prophecy revelation forever. All these things are true and correct. Then no person can come as a messenger after our Prophet at all." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Further, he says: "We also curse the claimant of Prophethood (on the claimant of Prophethood). We believe in La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadur Rasoolullah and believe in the finality of the Holy Prophet." These are his sayings from that time when he had not claimed to be the Mahdi and Messiah. Now I come to, later he says: How can you get those blessings without prophets and messengers? Therefore, it is necessary that the prophets of God should come from time to time to bring you to the level of certainty and love, and from whom you receive blessings. Now will you confront God Almighty and break His ancient law?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The blessings of the prophets are received, it comes in the Hadith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You are saying absolutely right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, look, he is saying everything correctly, that no prophet will come, no path is closed, no revelation will come. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, he did not say this. It is "revelation of prophethood," then look at the word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, okay. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "He did not say 'no revelation'." 1748 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, okay, sir! I admit it, yes, then he states: "Without prophets and messengers" He said that prophets will not come... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Messengers will not come. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he says that: "How can you attain that blessing without prophets and messengers..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, attaining the blessings of prophets, it is related to scholars: "They are the inheritors of the prophets," that they are the inheritors of their blessings... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look further: "Therefore..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "They are the inheritors of their knowledge." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "It was necessary that God's prophets should come from time to time to bring you to the level of certainty and love." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Okay, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning that even after the finality of prophethood, prophets will continue to come? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In the form of Buruzi, in the form of Zilli. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In an unreal way, in the color of "heirs of the prophets." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. From whom you will receive blessings, now you will compete with God. Meaning, there was no question of competition for Him. They have been coming in a representative manner. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, people didn't accept, some people, sir... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, people. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And they don't believe in the revelation of inspiration. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, people say that the verse of " خاتم النبین" (The Seal of the Prophets), after that, no prophet can come. And if someone says that he comes, then they say, "You are competing with Allah Almighty." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, they are not saying this. They are saying that the blessings of the prophets will continue to be inherited in the world. This is the saying of the Holy Prophet ﷺ himself, which they are presenting. But they say: "Look! Don't be mistaken by this that you think that the way prophets used to come before, the same series of prophets is still going on. After Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, prophethood is ended." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. He further states: "In my opinion, a prophet is one upon whom God's word is revealed certainly, definitively, and abundantly, which contains the unseen. That is why I was named a prophet, but without Sharia." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is its metaphorical use, this is its lexical... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Without Sharia." Look, Sahibzada Sahib! We said earlier that prophets can be of two types: with Sharia and without Sharia. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No sir, I did not say this, I never said this. This must be that ten-day debate in your mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I didn't, I just asked you about Jesus, whether he was Sharia-abiding or not. You said that... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I mentioned four conditions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, sir, leave what I asked you, forget about yesterday. You can clarify it, of course. Maybe I misunderstood. It's not like we have to make any decisions here right now. Maybe I misunderstood. I couldn't make you understand. I asked whether Jesus was a Sharia-abiding prophet or a non-Sharia-abiding prophet? You said that he was a non-Sharia-abiding prophet but he had the authority to amend the Sharia of Moses. So, I asked that here you say that "without Sharia", he says, "I am that kind of prophet." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I didn't say that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The rest, he didn't say that he would amend it for the time being, but he did say that "I am a non-Sharia-abiding prophet." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No sir, this was not said, "I am a non-Sharia-abiding prophet" this was not said, I can show you the words of Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then let me read this: "In my opinion, a prophet is one upon whom God's word is revealed definitively, certainly, and abundantly..." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, this is a literal translation of the word "Prophet." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then: "Which contains the unseen." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, that's it.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "That's why I was named Prophet." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, Prophet in that sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "That's why..." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: In those senses, keep that in mind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In those senses, he said. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In those senses, isn't it that: "A prophet is one upon whom God's word is revealed certainly and definitively in abundance." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: This is not Sharia; this is not the repeal of the previous Sharia. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Which contains the knowledge of the unseen, but without Sharia." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, meaning there is speech, from God, in abundance, and without Sharia. These are the three conditions. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he says further, let me complete the references first, then after that he says: "I am not a new prophet. Hundreds of prophets have come before me." So, does this mean metaphorical? 1732 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. We do believe that in the Ummah, there are revivers, saints, all these people are in this category. This is correctly written... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then they say further. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And that is our stand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then they state: "God's seal has done this work that one who follows the Holy Prophet reaches such a degree that from one aspect he is an Ummah and from one aspect he is not." This is also in the same sense that... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, the same Muhaddith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then they further state that: "As many saints, Abdals, and Aqtab have passed in this Ummah before me, they have not been given much of this blessing. So for this reason, I alone am designated to receive the name of Prophet, and all other people are not worthy of this name." When it is metaphorical, then there is no question that the rest are not worthy. You explain this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I submit, the request is, sir, that Mirza Sahib has already stated above that, "According to me, the word 'Prophet' that I am using here, includes three words, three meanings. The revelation of God descends upon him, descends in abundance, and God names him Prophet." These three conditions they have stated. These three conditions are present in a non-real prophet, according to the literal use of the word, the literal use of the word. Its This is used figuratively, it is used metaphorically. After that, now see that the scholars of the Ummah, or the Rabbani scholars, or the Mujaddids, or the Muhaddithin, the Holy Prophet has foretold them, the Holy Prophet says: (Arabic) God Almighty will send at the beginning of every century a person who will carry out the work of renewing the religion in the Ummah of Muhammad. Now this Holy Prophet has been commissioned by God, that person. But despite the fact that you have predicted the coming of someone at the head of every century, but search through the entire collection of hadiths, read all kinds of hadiths, only and only for the Promised Messiah, the Holy Prophet has used the word "Prophet", in figurative meanings of course, but for others this word has not been used even in figurative meanings. This means that I have been specifically chosen to receive the name of Prophet. You have done a translation of a hadith, you have not said anything from yourself. This is the meaning of this reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now he says further: "Wherever I have denied prophethood or messengership? I am reading again from Izala-e-Auham [Removal of Error]: Wherever I have denied prophethood or messengership, it is only in the sense that I am not bringing an independent Sharia." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: "Independently Sharia... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...bringing." " 1754 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug. 1974 That is, we have already said that it can be without Sharia, and it cannot be without Sharia. This thing, you... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: But independent, those conditions.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, isn't Jesus counted among the independent prophets? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: He is in the independent ones. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, I say, without Sharia and independent. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Independent, Mirza Sahib did not claim to be independent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says that: "...In what sense is it that I am not going to bring any Sharia independently? And neither am I an independent prophet. But in the sense that I have obtained inner blessings from my leader, the Messenger, and having obtained his name for myself, I have received knowledge of the unseen from God through him. I am a Messenger and a Prophet." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes sir! That is the same reference. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let me complete the reference from my side, then I will ask you some questions: "...I am a prophet, but without any new Sharia, a Messenger and a Prophet, but without any new Sharia. I have never denied being called a prophet in this way. Rather, God has called me a prophet and a messenger in these same meanings. So even now, I do not deny being a prophet and a messenger in these meanings." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP - CONTINUED that he does not deny being a prophet without Sharia. Besides that, they say, "Yes sir, whether I am officiating or temporary" is not the question. If you say this... That he is not a permanent Government Servant, that he is officiating, if you take "permanent" to mean... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No one is permanent, every human being dies. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, that is not what "permanent" means. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What does "permanent" mean? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Permanent" means that this position or status that he has attained, he has attained it without following Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That becomes direct, doesn't it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is what is called permanent. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so this is what they mean, that they have received this prophethood through the Holy Prophet? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Whatever they have received, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And the second thing they say is that "I am a prophet without Sharia." I am talking in this sense. Apart from this, the denial that I have made is in this sense, that "I am not a direct prophet who brings Sharia." From this... 1756 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 a meaning is derived. If you think it has some other meaning, then please explain it briefly. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: May I submit? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, please. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is the very reference I have been trying to draw your attention to many times, that this is the key point. From this, you can arrive at a decisive conclusion about all the writings of Mirza Sahib regarding prophethood. What is it? That there are two meanings of "Nabi." The use of "Nabi" is in two ways. One is the way I mentioned earlier. The second is the way I explained, which is literal. And now Mirza Sahib states: "Wherever I have denied prophethood or messengership, it is in the sense of the first meaning, in the true sense. And where I affirm it, it means that as a result of following Muhammad, God speaks to me. There is no more meaning than this." So now there is no contradiction in Mirza Sahib's writing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, now he has said "without Sharia," that it is without Sharia. "And they are subordinate to the prophet." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is what they call a Muhaddith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, "Muhaddith" you may say, but they say "I am a prophet." You insist that he is a Muhaddith. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, no, sir! Mirza Sahib says so, I am just giving Mirza Sahib's reference. LRUSS-LAMINATION FROM Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, sir, I submitted to you that Mirza Sahib's attention was drawn to this matter. He said, "Yes, a misunderstanding is arising, henceforth the word 'Muhaddis' should be understood, but what? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And in the end he also said this... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And despite that, he himself used the word "Prophet" again. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, in another sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Why another? The question was mostly about the meaning here. Before this, didn't he use the word "Prophet" in some other sense? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He did not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He always said it was metaphorical, that people misunderstood, because sir, you are metaphorical... 65 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You people misunderstood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "When you use it metaphorically too..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You people misunderstood, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am talking about some people, sir, I misunderstood. Are you saying it to me? You think he was Sharia-compliant, no, I am not saying that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, Sharia-compliant. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then what's the matter with misunderstanding? You also misunderstood, I also misunderstood. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, not everyone misunderstood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not everyone, sir, only those who had it... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am referring to him. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He requested him, "Mirza Sahib! Are you using this word in its literal sense or in its metaphorical sense? But there has been a misunderstanding among the people; some people have misunderstood. You should clarify this." So he said, "Yes, this is correct; it happened due to my simplicity. I did not mean to be a prophet in the original sense. Therefore, wherever the word 'Prophet' appears in the future, you should use the word 'Muhaddis' instead, and consider the word 'Prophet' in my books as cancelled and read the word 'Muhaddis' in its place. That was absolutely correct. The matter became clear. But after that, Mirza Sahib started using the word 'Prophet' again, started writing it, and kept saying it. So when there was a verbal dispute and people were not mistaken, despite that, he said again that I will still use this word." So you stated yesterday that there was no recourse for him; it was an order from Allah." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, I would like to submit that this reference has made Mirza Sahib's position very clear. Mirza Sahib states, and the objection that I have understood is that when some people misunderstood the word "Prophet," it was necessary to remove their misunderstanding. Therefore, Mirza Sahib removed their misunderstanding. Now, another group is being addressed by Mirza Sahib; now, there is another circle that Mirza Sahib is addressing. That group is the one that considers mere revelation and mere divine discourse to be illegitimate. They say that revelation cannot be sent down at all, and this type of prophethood is not ongoing in the world. Mirza Sahib told them, "Look! Prophethood is indeed closed, every kind of prophethood is closed, but divine discourse is not closed, it is ongoing." And the reason for me using these kinds of words is only to convey the idea that God speaks to me. I present to you his very last writing, which was written two days before his death, so that this misunderstanding may be removed that Mirza Sahib used to say these things at one time, but later he abandoned them. That is not the position. This is a writing from two days before his death, which was published on the day of his death, May 26, 1908, in the newspaper "Akhbar-e-Aam," in which Mirza Sahib states: "I have always informed people through my writings, and I still declare it." There is no change. "What I said from the beginning, I still declare." "That this accusation that is leveled against me, as if I claim such a prophethood that I have no connection with Islam, and which means that I permanently consider myself such a prophet who has no need to follow the Holy Quran, and who establishes his own separate creed and separate Qibla, and who declares the Sharia of Islam as abrogated, and who goes outside the obedience and following of the Holy Prophet. This accusation is not correct." This was published on the day of his death... Sir Yahya Bakhtiar: What a clear thing he has said. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Rather... Sir Yahya Bakhtiar: That I am a prophet, but not this kind of prophet, some other kind of prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, he hasn't sworn anywhere. The word "swear" isn't even there. Sir Yahya Bakhtiar: Then what is this? What is he saying? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I told you, it has two uses. This word is used in two meanings. Listen further, he himself has clarified it. Sir Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, that is what I am requesting from you, that people have said, "Do not create confusion, for God's sake, end it..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, he removed the misunderstanding of that group. But there is another group that doesn't have this misunderstanding. When both uses are prevalent in the world, one group had that thing. He said to them, "Hey! Don't understand this meaning of my statement." The other group doesn't have that misunderstanding. In it, the literal meaning of the word "prophethood"... Mr. Chairman: That's all. Next question. Next question. That's all. Sir Yahya Bakhtiar: Then it becomes clear that he has said to those who had the misunderstanding, "Don't read my future statements, don't read my writings, I will still use the word 'prophet'." CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1761 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He said that I cannot hide this. He said the same thing to us. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is, God has commanded me. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, he absolutely said, "I will not hide it. I will use it." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. 56 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Don't understand its meaning that way." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "You keep amending it. You keep..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "You keep..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, "You cut it from the book and write Muhaddis, and I will keep writing Nabi. He said that wherever this word is in my books, cut it, abrogate it, and write 'Muhaddis' there. And after that, I will keep writing Nabi, and you keep abrogating..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: May I submit... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's what it implies. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted this, please listen to this reference of mine. I feel this way in my statement that my point is interrupted by another question. If it were in order, perhaps our difficulty would be resolved. So, I was saying that Mirza Sahib states: This accusation is not correct. Rather, such a claim of prophethood is disbelief in my opinion. Not just today, but in every one of my books... 1762 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Point of order Sir. The question is something else, the answer is being given in some other context. It's just waste of time. It's extremly irrelevant, Sir. Mr. Chairman: Yes, they... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they said that they are saying it about some other group. The first group was left just as confused. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Rather, in my opinion, such a claim to prophethood is blasphemy. Not from today, but in every one of my books, I have always written that I have no claim to this kind of prophethood. And this is entirely on me." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What kind of prophethood? Exactly, Sahibzada Sahib! I am saying, what kind of prophethood was being claimed? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Dialogue, address. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Dialogue, address. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they are using the word "prophethood". Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In the literal sense. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in the literal sense, what objection do you have to calling them prophets? I am asking the Lahori party this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, let me finish the talk... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I asked a question that... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1763 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Let me finish, then I will submit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "The reason why I call myself a prophet is only this is that I am honored with God Almighty's conversation and He does it with me frequently and speaks and answers my questions and many unseen things He reveals to me. And He reveals to me the secrets of future times, that when Until a human being does not have a special closeness with Him, those secrets are not opens to another. This is it, sir! My submission. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I wanted to submit this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That your objection was this. Mr. Chairman: That, that's all. That's all. Next question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I have got to ask him one more. But before that, I want this position to be clarified. (Reference) I said, Sahibzada Sahib! Mirza Sahib has repeatedly said that "I am a prophet." You say that in every case he meant it in a figurative, linguistic sense, not in a real sense. But he still says that "I am a prophet. I am a messenger." You say that every time he says that "I am a prophet and a messenger in a linguistic sense." You Lahori What is the objection of the party that they do not use his word "Nabi" when they use it for themselves? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Shall I submit, sir? 1764 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, Sir. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The reason for this is that the class in front of us at the moment understands the word "Nabi" to mean that he is the possessor of Sharia, he is direct, he abrogates a part, etc. Because of this. And we are not doing this ourselves, this is not our interpretation, this is not our own thought that we thought we should leave it. Mirza Sahib himself has stated that "I do not like the word Nabi to be used for me in the common parlance of my community because some people are likely to be deceived by it and it has bad consequences." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then after that... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: So this Mirza Sahib... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just saying, then they themselves started using it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have told you, Sir, do not use it in general, but since such words are found in the dictionary and in the terms of the Ummah, in its literature, and divine dialogue, which was their greatest strength. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, look, Sahibzada Sahib, you are right, their last letter, which you read out, which was published on the day of their death, also mentions prophethood, about their being a prophet and what kind of prophet. So despite that, there has been no other statement of these people on record since then, that is, no writing has come. In it, when they say that "I am a prophet but non-legislative..." I have not claimed that I have my own separate creed, my own separate Kaaba, my own separate religion. In the literal sense, when they say, "Call me a prophet, then why don't you call him that?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In the literal sense, we have submitted, they themselves have said that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He didn't say it after that. This is his last statement. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir, he said it in that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In that, he said, "I am a prophet, a prophet of this kind." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In those meanings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He did not mention any Hadith or Muhaddith in it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, it is: And this title of honor has been given to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so you honor... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "...so that the difference between them and me may become apparent." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, then why don't you give them this honor? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: We give honor. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't call him a prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: We say that he had divine conversation and address. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: But because some people get irritated and nervous with this word, they do not know its literal use, those people... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay! This... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar uses it to remove the misunderstanding. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is expediency! Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: These facts are both in their place. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, both are facts. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That the word "Nabi" in the sense of non-prophet, the word "Nabi" in the sense of Muhaddith, the word "Nabi" in the sense of divine dialogue is used. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are Zilli, Buruzi, aren't they? Non-prophet. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, Zilli, Buruzi are not types of prophets! Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I repeat this again and again, that the meanings of Zilli and Buruzi are... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, okay, this you mean... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, the meaning of "Zill" is! It's a simple word, the meaning of "Zill" is shadow. There is an original thing, and there is its shadow, it is called Zill in Arabic. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is clear now. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: There is a prophethood, and there is a shadow of that prophethood. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This, Sahibzada Sahib! The position is clear. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because he clarified that "I am not a Sharia prophet." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, he also said "independent." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "I am not independent either." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And it is only that I am in the sense of divine discourse and address. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, just that. Now, please tell me, when he says this: What happened to that, understand what Sharia is. The one who, through his revelation, stated a few do's and don'ts and formulated a law for his Ummah, he is the one with Sharia. So, according to this definition, our opponents are accused because in my revelation there are commands as well as prohibitions." Now he has also become the possessor of Sharia. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Perhaps you didn't pay attention to one word: "Possessor of a new Sharia." A new Sharia, this is the Sharia of the Holy Quran itself, of the Holy Quran itself... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: First we... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: These are the words of the Holy Quran, the verses of the Holy Quran. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, first we should reach the conclusion that he was of the old Sharia, then the question of the new will arise. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, they say, who is a prophet? Who brings a new Sharia. We have already defined "prophet." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Here, this... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is not a new Sharia, but... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: What is this? I will tell you... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let me read it to you again, maybe I didn't understand: "Apart from this, you should also understand what Sharia is. He who, through his revelation, stated some commandments and prohibitions and prescribed laws for his followers..." "He had already made a community, had started taking allegiance, directions had been given, you have a separate party..." "...He became the possessor of Sharia. Therefore, according to this definition, our opponents are bound, because in my revelation there are both commands and prohibitions." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If I give some answer to this from my side, there might be difficulty in understanding. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Give it from Maulana Rumi's side! Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! I give it on behalf of Maulana Muhammad Hussain Sahib Batalvi, who was the fiercest opponent of Mirza Sahib. This is what they call: Magic is that which speaks loud. Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, by presenting the same point, the same objection, says: CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1769 The author of Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya has never claimed that these verses in the Quran are about their revelation and addressee. Their intention behind claiming inspiration or revelation of these verses upon themselves, which they themselves have explicitly stated, is not something we are inventing. It is that God Almighty has honored me with the privilege of being addressed with the same words or verses with which He addressed the prophets in the Holy Quran or previous books, but in my address, He has intended different meanings from those words, and those meanings are the secrets and effects of the meanings of the Quran. I submit again... Mr. Chairman: Next question. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Regarding Hazrat Imam Jafar Sadiq, I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, there is very little time. You have given a commentary. Mr. Chairman: That's all. Only the views of the witness and his Jamaat are needed, not what the others have said. The reply should be confined to the views of the Jamaat. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will draw attention of ......... Mr. Chairman: Yes, only to Jamaat; no other references,....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will draw the attention of the witness........ Mr. Chairman:.........not what one honorable member has said and what the other has said. Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a reference, I draw your attention to it, this prophethood... Hazrat Masih Maud... Hazrat Khalifatul Masih I says that: 1770 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug., 1974 Those who have seen the Promised Messiah and sat in his assembly know that there is a special attraction in the Prophet and it is very difficult to sit openly at that time. If there was no explicit order. " This is what Hakim Nur-ud-Din Sahib says, that in his gathering, the Prophet's gathering has a special attraction. And those who sat in Mirza Sahib's gathering, they say, yes, one could not sit openly, it was difficult. So this prophet, is he using this in the metaphorical or figurative sense here? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, in the sense of Muhaddith. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, if I say that a man is very afraid of a lion in the forest. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So is that lion real or is it a bazaar lion or a fake lion? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. And if he says that my gathering with the lion had many people, then which lion would he mean there? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying this, look, there is a man, a politician, he has served, because of his service they say that he is the Lion of Punjab or the Lion of Sarhad. He is also a human being like us, he doesn't bite anyone nor does he claw. So in his gathering, I will not say that like someone going to the jungle and a lion comes in front of him, that one is afraid of it. Is there fear? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, sir, even a brave man gets scared sometimes. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1771 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he is a brave man. He was so thin, who was afraid of Quaid-e-Azam? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: His mind was superior to the greatest of brave men. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, not a lion, here they say, from the gathering of a lion, from the gathering of the Prophet, a man is saying that he was a Prophet. There is a special attraction in the Prophet, and it is very difficult to sit openly at that time. In what sense have they used this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, this, this is a very high-level question that in what sense have they used this? For this, instead of giving its answer from my side... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you give its answer from your side, then that... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, Sir! I, Mirza Sahib... I will answer on behalf of Maulana Nooruddin, whom he is referring to. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, that is the right thing to do. No, sir! It is Urdu, it is a letter, it is in Urdu, it is a simple letter: "It is beyond human power to tear open the heart and show it. If one believes in an oath, then I do not see any oath equal to والله العظیم. Neither will you be with me after death, nor anyone else except my faith and deeds. So this matter is to be presented in the presence of Allah Almighty." 1772 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 By God Almighty (Arabic), I identify Mirza Sahib as the reformer of this century. I consider him righteous. October 27, 1910. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Isn't there anything written about a prophet ahead in this? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Huh? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Isn't there anyone ahead? Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Mr. Speaker! May I make a submission? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: You can read the whole letter again if you wish. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I'm just asking you this much.... Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: It would be good if the witness reads "Wallahul Azeem" instead of "Wallahul Azeem" at the place of "Wallahul Azeem". (Interruption) Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I will read the word. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, meaning not ahead... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I said, I will read the letter to you... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you so that we can save time. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Time will only be saved if I give some other answer and there is something else here. Alright: I believe Mirza Sahib to be the reformer of this century. I consider him righteous. The literal meaning of prophet is one who informs or gives news beforehand from Allah Almighty. We believe, not one who brings Sharia, Mirza Sahib and myself. Whoever... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LADUN MINE. I consider anyone who does not believe in even one point of the Holy Quran and the Sharia of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), to be an infidel and cursed. This is my belief, and this is what I believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad held. Whether someone refutes it, disagrees, or calls me a hypocrite, their affair is with God. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So now the matter is quite clear, Sahibzada Sahib! There is no difference between you and Rabwah. They also say that he was not un-Islamic, not one with the Sharia. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! I submit, I do not know what statement they have given before you. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That he was un-Islamic, a follower. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Look, sir, I submit that I have their past fifty years of literature before me, and I submit in light of that, they do not consider him an un-Islamic prophet in the sense of a "Muhaddith" (a scholar of Hadith). I do not know what their stand is here. What their past fifty years of... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, in the sense that Hakim Noor-ud-Din Sahib stated... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: A "Mujaddid" (reformer). Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He did say "Mujaddid"... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, a "Mujaddid." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He also said, "A prophet without Sharia, without Sharia." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, linguistically speaking, in the literal sense. Take their full words. 1774 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The literal meaning is also what they are saying, that they were from the Prophet's Ummah, sitting at his feet. Mr. Chairman: Let us get out of this lughat (dictionary). We have... (Interruption) (got so many fughats in our library. No, no. Please confine yourself. No further question, no further answers about the lughat or the double meaning or three meanings or four meanings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, sir, here is another reference: Maulvi Sahib, Hakim Nur-ud-Din Sahib, First Caliph of Qadian, used to say that this is only a matter of Prophethood. I believe that even if Hazrat Masih (Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Sahib) claims to be a prophet with Sharia and abrogates the old Sharia, I would not deny it. Because when we have found him to be truly truthful and from God, then whatever he says will be the truth. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Where did he say this, sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are not aware of this? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Sir! I know eleven of his books. To my knowledge, these words are not found in any of his eleven books. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In a letter? Not in a book, but in something else... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: The letter should be presented to me because a letter is a private matter. I do not know that letter... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In some other writing? No, no, in some other writing? Are you not aware of this? CROSS-EXAMINATION UP ING LARON DAY Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, not at all. If there is such a letter. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it's alright. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now A... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Forged things also happen. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, they are alright, aren't they? That's why I am asking if you are an authority on this, you know. Now, this is a reference from "Al-Furqan" Rabwah, no authority. But they have quoted some of your, who are party, their views. They say that: "Below, we present those references of the elders of the Lahore party from which it is as clear as day that they all believed in the prophethood of Sayyidna Hazrat Masih Maud until their separation from the Second Khilafat, i.e., 1914, in the same way as the Ahmadiyya community believes." And then they say that "Mr. Maulvi Maududi Sahib has written," I quote, quote: "Our Prophet is the Seal of the Prophets. And after him, no one can come, whether he is an old prophet or a new one, who has received prophethood without the intercession of the Holy Prophet." Then Maulvi Sahib further states: "The opponent may interpret it in any way, but we stand firm on the belief that God creates prophets, can make a Siddiq, and can grant the martyrs the status of the righteous. But there should be someone who asks." 1770 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 The one whose hand we took was truthful, God's chosen and holy messenger, the spirit of purity had reached its perfection in him. This is the "Muhkam" of 1908. First, the commands of March 10, 1901. Then there is Al-Hamam of July 18, 1909. Then further in the case of Maulvi Karam Din of Bheem, as a witness, the Maulvi Sahib gave this sworn statement... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: (Inaudible) Mr. Chairman: Not yet, not yet, let him finish. Sir, give me your views too, then you will see that he has proved it in that era, with awareness: "There is another view of the matter according to Mohammadan theology. One who believes a person claiming to be a Prophet is Kazzab. And this has been admitted by prosecution evidence. Now the complainant knew perfectly well that the first accused claimed that position..." First accused was Mirza Sahib there: "...that position and notwithstanding that he believed the accused notwithstanding that he believed the accused. Consequently, in religions terminology, the complainant was a Kazzab." Translation: According to original Islam, there is another aspect to this matter, and that is that whoever considers a claimant of prophethood and messengership to be a liar, is a Kazzab. Mirza Sahib claimed prophethood. That person said no, he is a Kazzab, a liar. This is the testimony of the prosecution. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1777 was accepted. Now, the plaintiff, Maulvi Karam Din, knows very well that the accused (meaning Mirza, Hazrat Mirza Sahib) has claimed this status (meaning prophethood and apostleship). Despite all this, the plaintiff has denied it. Therefore, according to the terminology of the religion of Islam, the plaintiff is also a liar.” Now the question arises, what is Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib saying? Whether he claims falsely in court that Mirza Sahib has not yet said anything metaphorical, he just says that: The plaintiff (Maulvi Karam Din) knows very well that the accused (meaning Hazrat Mirza Sahib) has claimed this status (meaning prophethood and apostleship). Despite all this, the plaintiff has denied it. Therefore, according to the terminology of the religion of Islam, the plaintiff is also a liar." Because a person has made a claim and they consider him to be truthful, so this is what it is. Then there is another reference in "Review of Religions 1904," in which Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib replied to the editor of the newspaper "Pioneer" Allahabad: Just as he wrote about India that India did not need any other prophet at this time... "Pioneer" wrote this about Mirza Sahib's claim to them: "India does not need another prophet." In response to this, he says: Just as he wrote about India that India did not need any other prophet at this time, he should also publish this in some other 1778 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug., 1974 "The country of Syria did not need any other prophet 1900 years ago." "Review of Religions" March 1903, page 46. Then further, Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib further states, addressing the Hindus: "We acknowledge that the promise they were given regarding the advent of an Avatar in the last era was from God. And God Almighty has fulfilled it in the person of the holy prophet of India, and the holy prophet of India, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani." Then further it is written: "Review of Religions" November 1903, page 411. Maulvi Karam Din had filed a defamation case against Hazrat Masih Maud and Hakim Fazal Din Sahib because Hazrat, in his book, had called him a liar, which I have already mentioned. Moving on, I will leave some more references. Then I draw your attention to this speech of Khawaja Qamaruddin Sahib, which Edminz writes to "Al Hakam". This is from "Al Hakam" May 14, 191-: Batalvi had mentioned in his daily "Paisa Akhbar" article that Khawaja Sahib had (then in brackets, God forbid) denied that Hazrat Masih Maud was a prophet or messenger. But for Batalvi, this news would be like a thunderbolt, that in his own home of Batala, Khawaja Sahib had clearly stated in his lecture, addressing the people of Batala, that a prophet and messenger has come to your neighborhood, whether you believe it or not. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1779 They are referencing his speech "Al-Ilham in 1911." Similarly, they have repeatedly given references to several other of your elders, which I don't want to waste time giving here, that they considered Mirza Sahib to be a prophet and messenger. Mr. Chairman: What is the question? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, there is a sworn affidavit, I would like to draw your attention to that as well: The unanimous belief of the Ahmadiyya community regarding the prophethood of Hazrat Masih Maud. Sworn testimony of Sheikh Abdur Rahman Sahib Misri Lahori. Below, we are recording the signed sworn testimony of Sheikh Abdur Razzaq Sahib himself, which on August 24, 1935, Sheikh Sahib wrote in response to Hazrat Nazir Sahib Talif-o-Tasneef. He writes: I am an Ahmadi from the time of Hazrat Sahib (meaning Hazrat Masih Maud, peace be upon him). I took the oath of allegiance in 1900. I used to believe and still believe that Hazrat Masih Maud, peace be upon him, is a prophet in the same way that I believe in other prophets and messengers of God. In the essence of prophethood, I neither made any distinction at that time nor do I now. The words metaphor and allegory had never fallen on my ears at that time. Later, in the books of Huzoor (peace be upon him), the meaning in which I have seen these words being used is not contrary to my belief. Even now, I consider Huzoor (peace be upon him) to be a true metaphorical prophet in the same sense. 1780 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug. 1974 I understand, that is, a prophet without a new Sharia, and a prophet who, by following the Prophet (peace be upon him), is annihilated in obedience to him and becomes a perfect manifestation of him, attaining the status of prophethood. My belief is based on the speeches and writings of Hazrat Masih and the unanimous belief of the Ahmadiyya community. So, I was submitting that you and Rabwah have exactly the same belief. Mr. Chairman: What is the question? These are the references and on these references, what question Mr. Attorney-General bares? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir? Mr. Chairman: These are the references. What is the definite question out of these? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say: does he deny these allegations, these statements? Mr. Chairman: Yes, the first question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will give these copies to them. They will verify and, after the break, they can......... Mr. Chairman: 'Yes, No. (1), I will ask the witness, whether these are admitted? If they are admitted......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have their "Review of religions." Mr. Chairman: ........then the explanation. And if they are not admitted, that's all right. We will be going for a............. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To the witness): Do you understand that he said this only in a metaphorical sense? CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LANUM, SAQUÍ DELEGA LIVED 1101 Mr. Chairman: The Delegation......... just a minute, just a minute........ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at this... Mr. Chairman: The Delegation can look into all these references. We will break for fifteen minutes. Then they will reply about it, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You look at them, after fifteen minutes... Mr. Chairman: You look at them, there are ten fifteen references. You can look into them......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In what sense did he say this? What did it mean? Mr. Chairman:.........then you can explain; the Delegation can explain. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: (Inaudible) Mr. Chairman: Yes, you look at it. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation will keep sitting while the House is adjourned. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let them have a cup of tea also. They can discuss it there. room. Mr. Chairman: They can discuss, yes, they can discuss in the Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you also have tea, discuss it there, consider it carefully. Mr. Chairman: Yes. At 12.15. 1782 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 (The Delegation left the Chamber) Mr. Chairman: The House is also adjourned to meet again at 12.15. The Special Committee adjourned for tea break to re-assemble at 12.15 p.m. The Special Committee re-assembled after tea break. Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. Mr. Chairman: Call them in. (Pause) I think it will be finished in an hour. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: By quarter to two... Mr. Chairman: We should try to. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Or maybe by two o'clock, at the latest. They are consulting the dictionary. One minute, don't call them yet. Mr. Chairman: They are consulting the dictionary. They don't even go outside. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I'm leaving them now. Mr. Chairman: And he has clearly said 5 : "two meanings". SUBMISSION OF WRITTEN REPLIES TO QUESTIONS Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will tell them whatever reply they have got to give........ GENERAL DEBATE AFTER THE CROSS-EXAMINATION 1783 Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .........they may send it to you in writing. To some of these question, they want time. Mr. Chairman: Yes. NODDING BY THE WITNESS IN REPLY TO QUESTIONS Sahibzada Safiullah: Mr. Chairman! I want to say one thing. This witness? are, meaning that when the Attorney General asks a question, he nods in the affirmative. Nodding does not even come on the record, and we do not have a TV camera with us. Mr. Chairman: If he listened to anyone, he wouldn't have listened in ninety years. Sahibzada Safiullah: No, he always nods his head. Mr. Chairman: He did not listen to anyone for ninety years. You think will you convince him in two minutes? One member did not believe the Prophet, so who will he listen to? Mr. Chairman: Be prepared for that too. (Tum) Mr. Chairman: Their turn will also come. Mr. Sahibzada Safiullah: He did the same with the Quran and Hadith, so what about Moore's literature! " Mr. Chairman: No, the one in which you have written "zoo". GENERAL DEBATE AFTER THE CROSS-EXAMINATION after that. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman! Examine the Lahore group. 1784 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 Mr. Chairman: Yes, after that we will open the debate in the closed session of the House Committee. Maulana Mufti Mahmood will start. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: I wanted to make this request. Mr. Chairman: Next session, it may be tomorrow. SAMADANI TRIBUNAL'S REPORT Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: It was in the newspapers that the Sadai Tribunal's report would be given to the members. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: It was in the newspapers that the Sadai Tribunal's report would be circulated among the members. I wanted to request, before this question is debated in the special committee, if we could also get copies of the Samadani report, we could prepare our case better, Sir. Mr. Chairman: I cannot guarantee what has appeared in the newspapers because... Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: That too must have come from government sources in the newspapers. Mr. Chairman: In this, the Sadai report is with the Law Minister who will be coming. A tragedy has befallen him because of the death of his father. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Yes, yes. Mr. Chairman: He was in a better position to tell the House. He will be coming day after tomorrow morning. The Governor Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Alright sir. Mr. Chairman: And, from tomorrow, we will be going to open this general debate and Maulana Mufti Mahmood will start with all the books and pamphlets on behalf of, I would not say, Opposition and the Government, because all are the same in this House. One Member: Will it be closed door? Mr. Chairman: Yes, closed door. And then any honourable member can participate. But we will regulate. Anything else the honourable members want to say? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir! It is late. Mr. Chairman: Okay then, call him. One hour, Sir then you know we have to........ WRITTEN STATEMENTS BY THE MEMBERS Maulana Abdul Haq: That statement, the statement that was given, our stance, Mufti Sahib will read it out, right? Mr. Chairman: Yes... Maulana Abdul Haq: This that... Mr. Chairman: This is a matter of your own discretion. Maulana Abdul Haq: It should be read out, so it comes on record. Mr. Chairman: As you deem fit. I have read it all anyway. Maulana Abdul Haq: No, well... Mr. Chairman: I have read all the verdicts too. Maulana Abdul Haq: Okay, sir. CONDOLENCES ON MURDER OF AMIR MUHAMMAD KHAN Chaudhry Zahoor Elahi: Mr. Speaker! Before we begin these proceedings, I... you must have received information about the Amir Muhammad Khan matter. I wanted to express my regret about it. Mr. Chairman: Just wait a moment, it just happened... Just wait for... Chaudhry Sahib, please wait, wait a moment. Chaudhry Zahoor Elahi: Okay, sir. Mr. Chairman: We all were together when we decided that after an hour... Because I am also getting some information... I will pass on the information, entire, everything. (The Delegation entered the Chamber) CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney-General. Before Mr. Attorney-General puts his question, yesterday a verse Maulana Abdul Haq Sahib recited, regarding the apostate, as far as I remember... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That was a Hadith, a Hadith, he recited. Mr. Chairman: Mufti Mahmood Sahib recited the Hadith, Maulana Abdul Haq recited a verse from the Holy Quran. He said that the word "man" was not used in the Holy Quran, on which he read two Hadiths and a verse. They have to answer that... if they like. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They are talking about apostates. LAUDO CARMINAL ISHIN SHE 106 LANUN SIRQUE DELEGATION 1101 Mr. Chairman: It can be repeated. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To the witness): Those Hadith and verses, did you hear all of that, you said that there is no punishment for an apostate? Mr. Chairman: No, he said that the name of an apostate has not even come in the Holy Quran, he gave this answer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, he wants to ask its answer that he recited a verse to you, and narrated a Hadith. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! Should your first questions be taken first or...? Mr. Chairman: Okay, first those first... ...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (Inaudible) You take this first. Mr. Chairman: Attorney General, please answer the question. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Answer your question first? Mr. Chairman: Answer your question first. But after that, then his, Maulana Abdul Haq's. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: We were given some photocopies that we should express our opinion about this. You esteemed members are gathered here to decide a very important issue. I will express it with great regret, I had pointed out earlier that Furqan is an irresponsible leaflet. Its writings should not be presented for deciding such an important issue. Here in my hand is Mr. Chairman: I must say the witness cannot guide the procedure of this committee. The witness can say...... 1788 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Lamar cita] 1714 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I requested you so much, please see. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Forget "Furqan". Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The "Review" references he gives in this, Please see those from 6-7-1904. If you cannot verify right now, then you verify them and send them in writing later. There is no hurry. This is a very important matter. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir! I have been given this photocopy. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You should also see this that Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I have seen it, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you say it is correct or incorrect. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you say so. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My request is that this Taliqi statement is a fake item that has been presented. Mr. Chairman: That's all. That's all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, okay. Mr. Chairman: That's all. Finish it. You, the references that have been given, you say whether they are correct or accurate. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1789 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The remaining references, the remaining references are from Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will submit after comparing. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so if you think you can't answer right now, then after comparing, send it here in a few days to the Secretary of the Assembly, to the Secretary Sahib. And then the members... Mr. Chairman: (To the Deputy Secretary) Javed! Note this down. Whatever it is...what they... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The members will circulate your answer. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will give you a principled answer regarding this, if the matter is settled with that... Mr. Chairman: No, no... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: ...then Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib has answered it. (References) Mr. Chairman: No. no, just a minute. The references which have been put to the Delegation should be either accepted or rejected. Then... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The first question was whether these are wrong or right? If the references are wrong then... Mr. Chairman: Wrong or right? If they are right then you can give an explanation, otherwise not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if you say that they are correct, then after that you will say what their meaning was. 1790 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug. 1974 Mr. Chairman: And the Delegation can send written reply after getting it verified and with any explanation, if they like. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And explanation. Mr. Chairman: And whatever they like, they can write it. Next question. Regarding the verse from the Holy Quran that Maulana Abdul Haq Sahib recited and the Hadith Sharif that Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sahib referenced. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you say something about "apostate" or will you say it later? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I will present it now. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, alright. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Regarding the killing of an apostate, my submission is that the most important literature published in our Urdu language on this topic was a series of articles in the newspaper "Zamindar" in 1925. All the references being presented or this discussion that is happening, it is all about that. Regarding this, I will submit this much that at that time Maulana Muhammad Ali Johar published a series of articles in his newspaper "Hamdard Delhi" in response to it and he proved that there is no verse in the Holy Quran about the killing of an apostate. Consequently, the article in "Zamindar" itself acknowledged this. Undoubtedly it is correct that... Mr. Chairman: I, I had already said that the witness should give his own view-point, his Jamaat's view-point, not what "Zamindar" had written. We are least concerned with what "Zamindar" had written in 1935. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1791 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Sir, he says that "Zamindar" is confirming his view. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Chairman: No, no, his own view should come. ............ Yes, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar. He said that. Mr. Chairman: His views are more important. We are here to get his views. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, he has recorded his view that there is no punishment for Murtad (apostate) in Quran. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now he is confirming that. Mr. Chairman: No, we need no confirmation. We will believe whatever the witness says; we will believe his views. We don't need any support. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He is saying whether your views have been recorded or not. He has already had it recorded. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, that is not our point of view. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, that's fine. Mr. Chairman: He has not answered regarding the verse. Mr. Mufti Mahmood: Verse... Mr. Chairman: And regarding the Hadith. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I will present the Hadith. Mr. Mufti Mahmood: In the verse, the question at the time was, Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Mufti Mahmood: That this verse: (Arabic) Imam Bukhari presented this verse in "Sahih Bukhari" regarding the killing of an apostate. Our objection to this is that Imam Bukhari understands this verse to be about apostates, that it was revealed about them. Please provide an answer for this. Mr. Chairman: What are the views on this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In Bukhari, if the entire hadith was read, this matter would be so clear that perhaps there would be no need for discussion. This subject exists in Bukhari that there is mention of a belligerent infidel or a belligerent apostate, meaning a person who rebels against the government of the time and joins others, and the punishment for that is certainly this. But that punishment is associated with rebellion. If a person does not rebel and merely changes his religion, there is no punishment for this in the Holy Quran. Hazrat Imam Bukhari has not narrated any such hadith for this. If you show me any hadith besides that of a belligerent infidel, then I can say something. Mr. Chairman: Next question. Maulana Mufti Mahmood: That is also a narration from Sahih Bukhari: (Arabic) (Whoever changes his religion, kill him.) This is a narration from Sahih Bukhari. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1793 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Allah Almighty says in the Holy Quran: (Arabic) It is a verse of Surah Al-Nisa that those who believe first, then disbelieve, then they become disbelievers, they abandon this faith, they abandon the religion of Muslims, then believe, then become Muslims, then commit disbelief, then (Arabic) then they go further in this disbelief. Now if the punishment for apostasy is death, then this whole process cannot happen that first they became Muslims, then became disbelievers. Then became Muslims. Then became disbelievers, will remain, then became Muslims, then became disbelievers, if apostasy The punishment for apostasy is simply to kill him as a result of apostasy, then he will die after the first apostasy will be killed. So to say that the Quran has prescribed the punishment for apostasy as death is itself against the Holy Quran is against this verse. Mr. Chairman: This has taken the form of a debate. Leave it. It's a Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We can do it in our discussion. question of interpretation. Mr. Chairman: It's a question of interpretation, yes. Attorney-General, next question. Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: (In-audiable) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Let him answer the Hadith. Mr. Chairman: The second hadith that Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: (In-audiable) Sir, because.................some reply should come from there that you 1794 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug, 1974 ...some reply should come from there. Mr. Chairman: No, this question that is... (Interruption) About the second Hadith. Mr. Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhar: Mr. Speaker! Mr. Speaker! I was submitting that if this Hadith is in the same words that "Whoever changes his religion, kill him," then my question is that the person who converts from Christianity to Islam, man badal deenahu, changes his religion, his religion is Christianity, he changes his religion and becomes a Muslim, should he be killed? This thing is wrong. Maulana Mufti Mahmood: "Man" means Muslim. Mr. Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhar: This "Man," the meaning of Muslim is nowhere, "Man's" meaning is not in the entire Arabic language, what is the meaning of "Man?" "Man" means who. Mr. Chairman: Next question by Attorney-General. That's all. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Maulana wants to say something. Mr. Chairman: No, there is no need. There is no need. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Mr. Sahibzada! Some other question... I am coming to some other side. You kept saying that Mirza Sahib was only a Muhaddith. And he was truthful, and he was a follower of Muhammad, and everything was bound by the Quran, by the Sharia. So does the Quran and Sharia allow us to insult the prophets who have passed away? CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1795 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Neither the Holy Quran allows, nor the Hadith allows, nor does human ethics allow one to be disrespectful. Mr. Kechi Bakhtiar: I will ask you this now, and you also know that they have said certain things about Jesus that would be considered disrespectful. That their grandmothers and great-grandmothers were adulteresses, or something else, that he was a drunkard, or that he was thick-headed. Are you aware of this? These things are read in many places, if you like, I can recite them. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I am aware of it. Mr. Kechi Bakhtiar: You are aware of it, so what do you make of it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: My submission is that when a debate takes place, it is called in terminology " الزام تصمی" (Ilzam Tasmi) which means that the opposing party has certain beliefs, they believe in certain things, just as you ask us a question that Mirza Sahib has this belief, and why do you believe in Mirza Sahib, you have the same beliefs. And this is absolutely correct, we acknowledge it. Mirza Sahib had debates with Christians, as you know. He silenced Christianity, he drove those Literally priests away from this subcontinent. He had some means to do so. What were those means? That their current altered "New Testament," which people mistakenly understand to be the same Gospel that was revealed to Jesus, whereas this is not their Gospel, but this is the Gospel of Matthew, this is the Gospel of Luke, this is the Gospel of Mark, this is the Gospel of John. This is not the Gospel of Christ, this is the New Testament. But we don't... 1796 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug, 1974 believe that it is correct. We believe it to be distorted and altered. But the current Christians consider it to be correct. Mirza Sahib said to them that you people are disrespectful to the person of Muhammad Mustafa, object to Islam, object to the Holy Quran, insult our beloved Prophet. Look into your own collars as well. What does your own accepted, correct book say about it? It says that some of their maternal and paternal grandmothers were such and such. All those statements are not Mirza Sahib's own, but are accepted by Christians, recorded in their own inspired book. So, therefore, the phrase which I used at the beginning, I will say that phrase again, ""Al-izam Khasam,"" meaning confronting the opposing party with something accepted by them, and rendering them speechless. And the Christian became speechless on this. This statement of Mirza Sahib's is not about them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I submitted that Mirza Sahib wrote in those books, even in the books of Christians, that ""Leave the mention of Ibn-e-Maryam. Is Ghulam Ahmad better than him?"" I am only saying that you should compare their... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I already answered your objection... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, give the answer by comparing it with theirs. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, now I will address the second thing that you have stated, I will give its answer. Regarding that, sir! There was a little mention of it yesterday as well that Mirza Sahib has neither stated any greatness of his own nor has he insulted Hazrat Maseeh, rather he has stated a statement about the honor of Hazrat Nabi Akram. He says: Leave the mention of Ibn-e-Maryam You who say that Christ, the son of Mary, himself... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If that is the answer, then I understand that you already gave it yesterday. Then there is no need. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now tell me, when Mirza Sahib says this: "Jesus cannot call himself good for this reason." Now, this is not a reference to any Gospel; this is his own conclusion, Mirza Sahib's, that: "People knew that he was a drunkard, a reveler, and of bad character, not after claiming divinity, but it seems so from the beginning. It seems so from the beginning, so the claim of divinity is a bad result of drunkenness." This is Mirza Sahib's own conclusion... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submit... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, this is not about the Christians' book; Mirza Sahib himself, understanding their books to be correct, has reached the conclusion that he was a drunkard and that he claimed divinity because of drunkenness. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Listen to my request: If I myself put Mirza Sahib's explanation about this before you, it will become clear whether Mirza Sahib has insulted Jesus or not, and what his own thoughts were about this. He says: "In the Mosaic order, the son of Mary was the Promised Messiah. And in the Muhammadi order, I am the Promised Messiah." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN So I honor him whose name we bear. And corrupt and slanderous is he the person who says that I do not honor Jesus, son of Mary.” He says: We are also appointed by God to regard Jesus as from God true, pure, and righteous, and to believe in his prophethood. So our There is not a single word in any book that is against his noble status. And if anyone thinks so, he is deceived and a liar. Ayyam-us-Solh" is the book, page 2 of it is Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Let me finish with "and": So we have in our speech" What you said is Mirza Sahib's own speech: So in our speech we have everywhere meant the Christians' fictitious Messiah. And God Almighty a humble servant, Jesus, son of Mary, who was a prophet and is mentioned in the Quran, is not at all meant in our correct addresses. And we have adopted this method for forty years after enduring the abuse of the priests.” And this style, this style of speaking, which I have called "allegation of the opponent", this type of style of speaking Gentlemen, the scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah have also adopted it. Maulvi Aal Hassan Sahib says: And look into your collar and see, God forbid Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1799 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "You have made two mistakes in the maternal genealogy of حضرت عیسی." Mr. Chachi Bakhtiar: Just look, you... See, Sahibzada Sahib! You have prepared long written answers, you are reading them. And this is absolutely not allowed in the assembly. You will give your answer. If there is any reference, if it is relevant, then... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes sir, I am referencing Mr. Chachi Bakhtiar: You stated this yesterday. I am asking about their conclusions... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I have read these very words of theirs, all of them, in front of you sir! Mr. Chachi Bakhtiar: No, I mean they, on one hand, say this and at the same time they are giving their conclusion. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, the conclusion is based on their words... Mr. Chachi Bakhtiar: On one hand, you have discovered grandmothers and maternal grandmothers that they... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is written in it. Mr. Chachi Bakhtiar: You extracted it from that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. (At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the chair which was occupied by Madam Deputy Speaker (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi) 1800 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar then says further himself: "Your inclination towards prostitutes, perhaps their love is for this reason because of an ancestral relationship in between." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Because it is written in it, in the Bible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is written? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This, that a prostitute came to Jesus and she wiped Jesus' feet with her hair and perfume was applied. This is the condition of a prostitute. This is written in the Bible. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's one thing... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is not from Mirza Sahib himself. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, to derive this conclusion from it, look, listen again: "That your inclination towards prostitutes, perhaps their company is also for this reason, perhaps for this reason..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, it is a conclusion, because it is written in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this conclusion he is drawing himself. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...perhaps it is for this reason that there was an ancestral relationship between them." That their valleys were of such and such kind, that is why he was inclined towards them. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1801 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: A binding answer is what it's called, this is called a "binding answer." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is a conclusion that Mirza Sahib himself has drawn. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: From his writings. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: From his writings, and in our writings also, did he have any grandmothers or maternal grandmothers, or was there someone else? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, we do not believe it, absolutely not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Born without grandmothers and maternal grandmothers? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely not, God forbid, we consider the entire genealogy of Jesus Christ to be a genealogy of virtuous people. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, so I am saying, the grandmothers were the same ones who are being accused. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, they are saying it wrong. We do not believe it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But why does Mirza Sahib write it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mirza Sahib is telling them that in your books, their grandmothers and maternal grandmothers have been described as such. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, tell me, this was said about Jesus Christ. Is Mirza Sahib saying the same thing about the Ahl-e-Bayt or not? What is he saying about Ali? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I would like to submit... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What are they saying about Imam Hussain? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If you allow me, I will respond to each point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Leave the old caliphate dispute. Now take the new caliphate. A living Ali is present among you, and you forsake him and seek a dead Ali." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In this too, Hazrat Mirza Sahib has raised the point that regarding Hazrat Ali, may Allah honor his face, Hazrat Mirza Sahib's words are: "My dust is sacrificed for the alley of the family of Muhammad." "That even my dust is to be counted in the alley of the family of Muhammad." The point being made is that some people, from the Shia community, have a specter of Hazrat Ali in their minds. I don't say all. A few people, some people, they hold this concept about Hazrat Ali, may Allah honor his face, that the original revelation was brought by Hazrat Jibreel to Hazrat Ali, and they brought it to Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, this has nothing to do with it here. They say that, "I am better than two Alis. They are dead. I am alive." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That Ali who is in their minds. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whoever it may be, that Ali is correct too. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, that Ali. Then you also will not do [that]. No one will do it, no Shia will do it. What is it? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not that, not that, not that, his revelation is better than that. CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1803 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He is above Ali. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning you are above even that Ali... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, who is that Ali? That is not Hazrat Ali, may Allah honor his face, it is a concept. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: An imaginary Ali... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, so... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: About whom they believe that he is superior than Muhammad, may my life be sacrificed for the Messenger of Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This imaginary Muhaddis is better than this imaginary Ali? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's what it means? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, sir. Now, What do they say about Imam Hussain... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: O Shia nation." (Pause) Ch. Jahangir Ali: Madam Chairman, a point of information, with your permission. Madam Chairman, sometimes honourable... Beg your pardon. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please let me continue. Please let me continue. Madam Chairman: ....procedure. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: I was submitting one question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, the whole thing is disturbed. Madam Chairman: You write it and give it to the Attorney- General. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: I only want to submit that in response to some questions, some members of the delegation only nod their heads, and the reporters don't know whether they nodded in the affirmative or negative. Therefore, they should answer in words. I just want to submit this. Madam Chairman: Okay. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, tell me, when they say: "Oh Shia community!... Not some, they are addressing the entire Shia community: Don't insist that Hussain is your personal property. I truly say that today among you there is one (referring to Mirza Sahib) who is greater than this Hussain." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In this regard, my submission is that I will recite to you the words of Hazrat Mirza Sahib: "No man can survive even a single night after speaking ill of a righteous person like Hussain. And (Arabic) seizes him immediately." (Ejaz Ahmadi page 38) CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1805 The words that Hazrat Mirza Sahib wrote about Hazrat Imam Hussain, you say, need to be read in the context that a person respects him... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This means that everywhere Mirza Sahib has said anything in the world... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Objection. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, he has said two kinds of things, everything has two types? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: For example, regarding God Almighty, he... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "I am a prophet." "I am not a prophet." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He did a very long debate. That too is of two types. He... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then there is praise of Jesus, then he also said, "Desny Kuja Ke Ta Ba Ahad Pa Ba Minbaram" ..... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I think now regarding every matter... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then here, regarding Hazrat Ali too, it is like this... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then regarding Hazrat Imam Hussain too, it is like this. Now you leave them too. Now I will ask you, when Mirza Sahib mentions his opponents, when Mirza Sahib mentions his opponents, what does he mean by that? Non-Ahmadis or only Hindus, Christians? I asked you that Mirza Sahib says that: "The person who does not follow you and does not enter into your allegiance, remains your opponent, he is a hellish opponent of God and the Messenger." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 1806 What do you mean by "opponent"? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: One who uses abusive language. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not "abusive language." "The person who..." Mr. Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: You asked for the meaning of "opponent," right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let me read it to you again; perhaps you didn't hear: "He who does not follow you, does not enter into your allegiance, and remains your opponent, and remains your opponent..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...he is a hell-dweller who opposes God and the Prophet." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You asked who is meant by these? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, what is meant by "opponent?" "Hell-dweller." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: ليس كلا منا هذا فى اخبار هم و الغي الشرارهم كم: "Our writings of this kind are addressed to those who are evil, among the wicked. Those who are virtuous, good, and righteous, even in other nations, these writings of ours are not about them." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When Mirza Sahib says: "All Muslims have accepted me, have confirmed my claim, except for the offspring of prostitutes and evildoers, who have not accepted me." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Please show me this writing of Mirza Sahib. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1807 That is it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I, I, this is the Urdu translation. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no, these are not the words of Mirza Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, this is the Urdu translation. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Translation. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: It is in Arabic, I will recite that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, read the Arabic. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, what is the meaning of the word in Arabic? Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: These are the words in Arabic: (Arabic) Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Ahead is its translation, that those people on whom this verse of the Holy Quran applies: " ختم الله على قلوبهم " (Allah has set a seal upon their hearts), meaning that despite seeing the truth, despite understanding the truth, despite fully knowing all the arguments, those people still do not accept the truth. This writing itself is ours. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, then they became the children of prostitutes, is that it? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. There, the word "children of prostitutes" is not there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, that is what I am asking you that... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is, look, that's why I said that the word is not that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That word which is... 1808 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug, 1974) Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: "Baghaya." (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: For "Baghaya," they repeatedly use the words "badkaar aurat, fahisha aurat" (immoral woman, prostitute) themselves. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Walad-ul-Baghaya," "bain-ul-haram aur walad-ul-haram," "ibn-ul-halal" and "bint-ul-halal," etc., are all idioms of Arabia and the whole world. The person who abandons virtue and goes towards evil, and despite the fact that his lineage is correct, is called "ibn-ul-haram" and "walad-ul-haram" only because of his actions. In contrast, those who are virtuous are called "ibn-ul-halal." In these circumstances, it is correct for Imam Ali-H-Salam to call his opponents "aulad-e-baghaya." And Mr. Speaker, I have a saying of Hazrat Imam Baqir... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, first tell me what it means? If a "walad-ul-haram"... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, first settle this, then keep giving arguments later. When a man roams in the market and you call him "harami" (illegitimate), it doesn't mean that he is really "walad-uz-zina" (born of adultery). Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It doesn't mean that. And "harami" means a curse word. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely, absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, did Mirza Sahib say it in that sense? CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1809 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, in Bakhti's poetry. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is Bakhti's poetry. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, it's not that...that's what I was saying, it's not a translation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's what I'm saying, they are not the children of prostitutes, they... Mirza Sahib says, in his opinion, that whoever does not believe in him is like how we say that he is a bastard, a child born out of wedlock." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Meaning "rebellious person." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, rebellious is not necessary. The leader of the... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: They say "Baghi." Wasn't it? Who do they call "Baghi"? They call a rebel, right? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Sir... Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: "Bughayah" is... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Bughayah" is not the plural of "Baghi." "Bughayah" is also a plural. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: And "Baghi" means... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, in those meanings, this word appears in the dictionary, I submit... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, I have seen in some of Mirza Sahib's books that he himself has been using this word for "a wicked woman," "a prostitute." 1810 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! Show it to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is in the translation that has been done by them. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! That translation is not theirs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is from their book. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This translation of "Wald al-Bagaya" is not theirs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it is from their book. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Show it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is there seven times in six pages... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, it is in Arabic, that is not the translation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They take the meaning of "Bagaya" to be a prostitute. Let me, let me read it out to you. Please take a look. Please listen carefully. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, please read. Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This is "Lajnah al-Nur, page 90" (Arabic) Now they have translated it as: (Persian) After that, on page 91, it is: (Arabic) After that, it is. Then they write: (Arabic) 1811 CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION Then he writes further: (Persian) (Arabic) (Persian) Then he writes: (Arabic) (Persian) In this way, he himself has written and translated in many places in other books as well. Mr. Yahi Bakhtiar: "Deoth and Rijal." Now look, now you tell me, Sahibzada Sahib! That a person who is a Muhaddith, he says that "I am a Muhaddith, not a Prophet." His denial is not disbelief, then why does he say to these people that these are illegitimate children, these are deoth, these are rijal, may not be in this sense that "illegitimate children" means that they are actually the children of adultery. But these things, why use such words for them? Meaning a person who has such a status, is a Muhaddith, says "Whoever does not believe in me is the child of prostitutes." "Adulterer" or "rebellious" You understand it as they say. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is not "whoever does not believe in me." That's why I submitted, Mr. Yahi Bakhtiar, I will read it again, look: "And all the Muslims accepted me and confirmed my invitation." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. 1812 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug. 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Didn't the children of prostitutes and evildoers accept me? This is what has been translated. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omer: I requested that the words of Hazrat Mirza Sahib, if read in that context then... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The context is this, isn't it? "Accept me or you will become illegitimate." Now if you say that it has two meanings, then tell me what they are? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omer: The thing is, Sir, that Mirza Sahib was confronting the opponents of Islam. And in the literature of that time, I wouldn't want to offend your ears, but quoting disbelief is not disbelief... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, look, Sahibzada Sahib! I am presenting references to you after much thought. I was not taking references from Anjaam Atham, "they became pigs of the wilderness," that was related to Christians. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omer: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says "all Muslims". And by Muslim, he means "those who claim to be true, real Muslims of Islam." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omer: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am saying that to them. You leave the words of Christians. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omer: No Sir, I am saying something regarding that. So, I requested that when he uses harsh words, then the people who are on the other side... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1813 We should see for whom you have used this word. I myself have Mirza Sahib's words in front of you... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are absolutely right, please give a little clarification here. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Okay, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When he uses harsh words, you have to see, you are saying, who is in front of him, about whom is he using them? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those who did not accept him. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those who did not accept his invitation, did not confirm it, did not believe in him, did not consider him a Muhaddith, did not consider him a Prophet, or called him a liar, a Kazzab... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You are doing the translation, sir. Read the original text. That is my request. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have translated it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Translated it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you had an objection to one word that Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I have stated that it is a translation. Now I will tell you its translation. It is not that whoever does not accept me, but he said 1814 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug, 1974 Gul, every person who will not accept me going forward... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He will be among the mischievous people. He will be among those people upon whom the warning of "ختم اللہ علی قلوبھم" comes. This is what is written... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now this, here is your translation... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is the future tense, sir. It is talking about the future. And you think about it yourself, this is a writing from Mirza Sahib's early days. After that, millions of people accepted him. So, did Mirza Sahib say that all those who have accepted me now? There were a few hundred at that time. Whoever accepts me in the future will be like that? This is against reason. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, his meaning is that he is threatening, "Accept me, otherwise you will become illegitimate." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Meaning, it is a threat, this is the correct thing. A person presents the truth... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "And whoever does not accept it is illegitimate, will become." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And the second thing I had submitted was that the first thing is that نافیلی it is the future tense. Meaning, "will accept me." Not "who has accepted me." This is one mistake in this translation. The second thing is, what is meant by accepting you? Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Sir, the future tense is used for the present as well, and for the future as well. You are only talking about the present. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1815 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, so here the future is intended, yes, you are absolutely right. Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, here the present is intended. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: What right do you have to say that here is the present? Maulana Abdul Mannan Omar: No, just as I don't have the right, neither do you. Meaning, you, you are only telling the future, this is wrong. Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have told you with reason that here is the present tense. Naeem Bakhtiar's Daughter: What he says is reasonable. Just... You see. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is the present tense, and Mirza Sahib says that "they will accept me." At that time, there were only a few hundred people. That is why I put my argument before you that here the present tense or that part will be intended which is related to the future. And the next thing I want to say is that "invitational" means in this place "Da'wat ilal-Islam" (invitation to Islam). Because where did you call people to? What was your invitation? "Da'wat" means calling people. Where did you call them? "I call towards Islam, I call towards Muhammad Rasulullah, I call towards the Quran." So, the person who does not come towards the Quran, the person who does not come towards Islam, who does not come towards Muhammad Rasulullah, it is obvious that that person is not a man of good character. Among the rest of the opponents, then I will say, "Laysa kullu 'ilmin ma'anaa haadha..." (Not all knowledge is with us...) 1816 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at this, look at this, Sahibzada Sahib!... Madam Chairman: That's all. That's all. This a question of argument. The question was ...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, is your Islam only about believing in Mirza Sahib, or is there some other Islam as well? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is completely different, sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, when they say they don't believe in him, why are you bringing Islam into this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: They say that one does not become a disbeliever because of not believing in him. But what is their message? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, one becomes illegitimate, not a disbeliever, a bastard, born of adultery. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Where do they call to? Not towards Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he has become a disbeliever, sir. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, if he does not come towards Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, does not come towards the Quran, what good man would you call him? I would not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, we would not say that, but the one who... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, Mirza Sahib is saying that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib says that I and the Quran are one and the same, I... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1817 Madam Chairman: That means it is admitted. That means it is admitted that these words were used. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Alright, let's move on to another matter. This obedience to the British government, was obedience to the British government also a part of faith according to Mirza Sahib's belief? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Part of what? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was it a part of faith or a principle of Islam in your view, a principle of your religion that one should obey the British government? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In the Holy Quran, it says that when you have a disagreement on something. (Arabic) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, Sahibzada Sahib! Whatever question I ask you, it seems you have made up your mind not to answer, but to give an explanation. And regarding explanation, there is a very famous saying: "Explanations are no use. Friends don't need them. Enemies don't believe them." So, please give up explanation first. Give me your answer. First you say whether it is part of your faith or not? Then you give some clarification about it, whether obedience to the British government was made obligatory upon you by Mirza Sahib or not? Madam Chairman: He is coming to that. He has quoted: He is coming to that. ولي الأمر منكم Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but, Sir, he is giving the explanation first. I know what he is coming to. 1818 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 Madam Chairman: He is justifying through Quran......... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. but he should state............. Madam Chairman: ..by quoting: Let us hear him. اولی الامر من كُم Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, for this reason, because ...... Then you say first "yes" because of this... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If you have to answer on my behalf then... Madam Chairman: No, you answer. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If I have to answer, then let me answer. Madam Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, there are two things. Either you say that it is not. Then the question does not arise. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Look, my request is that we have not come here for any debate of this kind. Towards a great truth... Madam Chairman: You answer this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: In search of that truth, we... Madam Chairman: Okay, you, you start from where you left off. That is "ولی الامر منکم" (Oli al-Amr Minkum). Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, so I was requesting that we people believe that a person, in whichever government he lives, may have thousands of disagreements with it, he... 4 CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1819 can give suggestions against it, but cannot be a rebel of the government while living under a government. This is our way. Mirza Sahib was in the time of the British. The British ruled India. Before that, the Sikhs ruled. The Sikhs committed so many atrocities against the Muslims that they would not even allow the call to prayer. If a poor man, while eating wild vegetables for a long time, ever slaughtered an animal, he would be killed. That is, there was a lot of their oppression of the Muslims. Madam Chairman: Next question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that the Sikhs committed atrocities and the British established a good government here that did not interfere in religious matters. It is one thing that when they do not interfere in religious matters, you should not interfere in government matters. That's fine to that extent. But the advocacy of this government, the propaganda of this government, the support and promotion of this government, even in countries where there were no Sikhs, where there were Muslim governments, Mirza Sahib used to propagate in support and promotion of this government, for the sake of Allah. I ask in this way. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! This is absolutely correct. Mirza Sahib was a grateful man. If someone did good to him, he would acknowledge that goodness. He had seen how much oppression and cruelty was being done to Islam. When he found the era of British peace in comparison to this oppression and cruelty, he became grateful to them, he was thankful to them, and his gratitude was based on the example of the companions of Muhammad Mustafa. When those people got tired and that Sikh government which was the government of Mecca, got tired of it. 1820 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 When they migrated to Abyssinia, there was a Christian government in Abyssinia. Just like here There was a Christian government of the British, there was a Christian government in Abyssinia. On the Muslims there When the time came, the time for war came, Hazrat Jafar Tayyar was there, Hazrat Usman bin Affan was in it, Hazrat Abd al-Rahman bin Awf was there, big They were companions. Those people prayed that Allah Almighty this government, which was a Christian government, May Allah Almighty grant success. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now you please tell me that there was a lot of oppression in the Sikh government. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no doubt about it, Muslims were oppressed, especially Even the calls to prayer were stopped. Isn't it correct that Mirza Sahib's father was in the Sikh army? Were they generals? When Hazara was attacked, when Frontier was attacked, he was in that army, is this Correct? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Madam Chairman: Next question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You please correct.... You have nodded, they object It is that the record does not come. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I am, okay, I am... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Okay, you tell me that about Mirza Sahib it is It is said that I am saying this so that there is no misunderstanding, clear I should say so that you can give a clear answer that the British wanted such a Muslim CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1821 nation, they have such a religion that incites them to war, to Jihad, they have such a belief that they will not leave us in this country. Therefore, such a group should be created, such a Mujaddid or Prophet should be created who can cool down their spirit of Jihad a little. And this allegation is made, I am saying this because, this group itself was created by the British and this Prophet was made by the British, he was inspired by them, he was encouraged by them, this is an allegation, I am not saying that there is any such thing. That is, generally you must have seen, even in newspapers, in magazines, these things are very common. The questions that have come to me, should I ask you, that this was the invention of the British, about this, what would you say? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. This is a false allegation. I, we strongly deny this. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, the British did not establish Mirza Sahib, and no one could have been more foolish than the British to raise such a person who would eradicate their religion. You know when the British came here, they on one hand in the field of education, on the other hand in the field of preaching, tried to spread Christianity... Madam Chairman: Next question. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: And if Christianity spreads... Madam Chairman: Next. That's all. Next question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, look, the thing is, Mirza Sahib! What was the mission of the Messiah? 1822 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: To break the cross and kill the pigs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Meaning the religions that stand against Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: To end them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even now, the English King or Queen was called "Defender of Faith," the Defender of the Cross. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is this correct? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you say that this Defender of the Cross, who raises and eats pigs... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is obligatory for you to obey him. One. Not only is it obligatory for you, but wherever people are opposing them, in Egypt, in Syria, in Afghanistan, they sent them cupboards full of books saying that their government is a very good government. So, was this the Messiah who breaks the cross, the one who kills pigs, an English propagandist? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mr. Speaker, at that time the government was that of Queen Victoria. Mirza Sahib is the only person in the entire Islamic world who praised this ruler... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1823 Invited the English to Islam. Such a harsh arrow was shot at their religion. If that person was their agent, then you know that religious passion is the most powerful thing in a human being. So if that person was their creation, if they had set him up, then at least they would not have touched his religion. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, then the question arises that when they attacked their religion so harshly, it is true that Mirza Sahib used to go to debates and give them very harsh answers. Christians used to attack and he used to answer them and give very harsh answers. So under what passion did Mirza Sahib do this? Did he do it in excitement, in anger, or with the passion of Jihad, with the passion of faith? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: It is mentioned in the Holy Quran: (Arabic) Taking the Holy Quran in hand, do not do ordinary Jihad, do Jihad Kabir. This was Mirza Sahib's mission. With this mission, his disciples, his followers, went to America, England.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Enough, enough, I understand, it was with the passion of Jihad, not in excitement, in anger. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: The passion of Jihad, that is the real Jihad. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am saying that he did not get angry because the Christians gave abuses, they... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 1824 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, no, no, absolutely right. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Think carefully. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Think carefully that this is the teaching of Islam, the teaching of the Quran. It is the teaching of Islam, the teaching of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, taking this spirit. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But then when he privately writes a letter, he says to the Englishman: "That was not my intention at all. Don't be mistaken. I adopted this strategy to cool down the fervor of these savage Muslims." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, very true. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, he says: "I adopted a strategy to cool down their, the savage Muslims', fervor so that unrest does not arise in your government." So this is completely contrary to Jihad, that unrest should not arise in the government of Britain, the Protector of the Cross, this was the spirit. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And savage Muslims... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, if someone is savage and spreads chaos, then I think it is the duty of every citizen to remove the unrest. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As if... Madam Chairman: Next question. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now further he says: "Keep a special eye on this self-planted plant." CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1825 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: What does this mean, sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Alright. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The self-planted one that was Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They mention themselves, mention their community, mention their family. These are three mentions. After this, you are its authority. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: By this, they mean their family. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now look, this Mirza Sahib is a descendant of a great Mughal family. They came from Samarkand in olden times. The English did not plant their family here; they were not a self-planted sapling. No sensible person can accept this. Now the question arises that Mirza Sahib comes at number 2. He was also there before, from the English, and what was there to say about the self-planted one, he was the Prophet of Allah. There is no question of him. Does this apply to the community? That you are a self-planted sapling. Protect it greatly." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted that if the history of Mirza Sahib's family is looked at and the passage itself is looked at where this subject has been described, then Mirza Sahib means the family. Saying that he came from the time of Babar, after that the history is that… Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, look... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: They were destroyed, finished in the era of the Sikhs. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sahibzada Sahib!... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Its reconstruction took place during the time of the British. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sahibzada Sahib! After that, those you protect, there were many such people in that family who were opposing Mirza Sahib himself. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: But the British... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, the people who were opposing Mirza Sahib – Christians, Muslims, Hindus – among them were people from Mirza Sahib's own family, which no one can deny. And along with that, the list they give contains three or four hundred members of their own group. "These are members of my group on whom attention should be paid." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, I think this has become a slightly incorrect topic. Hazrat Mirza Sahib wrote a letter to Queen Victoria, in which he wrote: "O Queen! I draw your attention to look kindly upon the Muslims." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Mirza Sahib, he never asked for anything, neither a title, nor an estate, nor a square. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, look, there is a small thing. Would a Muhaddith write such a letter to such a figure who is the protector of the cross? And say that I am the Promised Messiah and request from them that "You should be very kind to me, show favor." Look at this contradiction. Can any Muhaddith do such a thing? Can he write such a letter? Or in your opinion, is what he wrote correct? Mr. Abdul Mannan Umar: Yes, this letter should definitely be written because Muslims were in such trouble, due to the Congress movement, the British were leaning towards the Hindus, and because of the riots of '57, Muslims were viewed with great suspicion. And this is the same point of view that all the great Muslims who were leaders at that time adopted. Therefore, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, whom no one would probably criticize here... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, so this was a discussion with the community, right? It wasn't a discussion with the family, or was Mirza Sahib only concerned about his family, that they should be taken care of, the British should respect them, and the community can go to hell, the Muslims can go to the gutter? Was this his approach? Mr. Abdul Mannan Umar: No, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Umar: I, I will request again, that the letter he wrote was to ask for the Muslims to be shown favor. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You see this letter, it doesn't even mention the question of Muslims. Mr. Abdul Mannan Umar: Sir! Read the letter to Queen Victoria. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, let's deal with the letter that I am presenting to you first, then we'll come to that. It's not a big deal. If there was time, I would have told you many more of his allusions. Look, first of all: 1828 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug.. 1974 " To the Honorable Lieutenant Governor Bahadur... Since a new sect of Muslims, whose leader and food and saint this scribe is... So the question begins with one's own group, sect: It is spreading rapidly in most cities of Punjab and India, and large educated, civilized, and respected officials, as well as reputable chiefs and merchants of Punjab and India, are joining this sect, and generally the educated of the noble Muslims of Punjab, like B.A. and M.A., are entering this sect and are continuing to enter." So we start with this and end with this. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, "self-planted sapling, noble writing, if read then..." Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, I'll get to that too. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Don't leave it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I say that its introduction, which I read out, mentions his own family in the middle. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, that's what I mean. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then they say that: "Not only did he work to incline the Muslims of British India towards true obedience to the English Government, but he also informed the people of Islamic countries by authoring many books in Arabic, Persian, and Urdu, about how we are living peacefully, comfortably, and freely under the benevolent shadow of the English Government." " CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1829 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is the real reason. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look here: "And thousands of rupees were spent on printing and publishing such books." I say that they are also spending money from their own pockets. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely, peace should be established. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, absolutely, that's good, I am not against it. Now, in the end, these fifty cupboards that they filled in praise of the British, has any point of it come or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They have written that I have written so many books. If they are filled in cupboards... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Please read the passage, then talk. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is, fifty cupboards are filled.... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, not verbally...... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even Mirza Sahib does not make any point briefly. Then he says here: What was the motive for sending such books and advertisements to people in foreign countries? The Government should investigate whether it is not true that thousands of Muslims who declared me an infidel, and my community which is a large group present in Punjab and Hindustan, consider it their duty to hurt (in every way) with all kinds of slander and malice. 1830 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 understood. A hidden reason for this excommunication and harm is that, contrary to hidden ideas, thousands of advertisements were published by these ignorant Muslims to express heartfelt gratitude to the British Government. And such books were sent to Arab and Syrian countries, etc., and these things are not without proof. If the Government pays attention, I have very obvious proof. I say emphatically and claim openly to the Government that, according to religious principles, this new sect is the most loyal and devoted to the Government of all Muslim sects." No, I am saying this because..... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That's right, you are reading correctly, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The attention they are getting is towards the sect, and they want protection for it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Next? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Who says that "it is a self-planted tree." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Read that a little. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then they say: "I believe that as my followers increase, the believers of the concept of Jihad will decrease because accepting me as the Promised Messiah denies the concept of Jihad." Then he further states: "It is requested that the esteemed Government should treat such a family which has been proven to be a loyal and devoted family by fifty years of continuous experience, regarding which CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1831 The esteemed officials of the High Government have always testified with a firm opinion in their correspondence that they have been staunch well-wishers and servants of the British government since ancient times. Regarding this self-cultivated plant... (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am reading, sir: ...act with utmost prudence, caution, investigation and attention, and instruct their subordinate officers to also, keeping in mind the proven loyalty and sincerity of this family, show me and my group a special favor... ...family services have rendered. Therefore, "me and my group" upon the "self-cultivated plant" here, in my opinion, it applies that they should show special favor. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, this is a simple matter of Urdu language. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, it's alright, you see ahead.... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: A conversation has been going on from behind, they are clearly presenting it to the family. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, I'll read it again, then, because the point is that it should be clarified. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, absolutely, that is the purpose. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay: It is requested that the government, possessing wealth and power, regarding such a family, which fifty years of continuous experience has proven to be a loyal, devoted family, regarding which... 1832 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 The esteemed officials of the High Government have always testified in their holidays with a firm opinion that they have been staunch well-wishers and servants of the British Government since ancient times... It has come this far..... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, family. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then he further states, "Regarding this self-cultivated plant,..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That is the one mentioned above. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...exercise utmost caution, care, inquiry, and attention regarding this self-cultivated plant and instruct his subordinate officers to also consider the proven..." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "...proven loyalty and sincerity of this family and look upon me and my community with special favor and kindness." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Look, sir! Every time you have read that the family is mentioned in the back, then there is "his" word, there is a reference to it, the reference is to this family. And nowhere, I repeat to you, nowhere did Mirza Sahib call his community a self-cultivated plant of the British; I categorically deny it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, what I was submitting was that as far as Mirza Sahib's family was concerned, they were not a self-cultivated plant of the British under any circumstances. Of the Mughals... CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1033 They have held a high position for a long time. One of their elders was a Qazi (judge) of several villages during the Sikh era. All these things are established, are on record, and literature exists. It is true that the Sikhs took a lot of things from them, seized their properties. But they also served the Sikhs with complete loyalty. When the Muslims were attacked in Hazara or Frontier, Mirza Sahib's father was with the Sikhs, this is also true, it is on record. So as far as the family is concerned, the British government also said that they have been very loyal, it was an old family. It was not self-cultivated. A self-cultivated plant is in a state where the British would lift them up. The British did not lift them up; they served the British on their own. They gave letters saying, "You are very kind, we have served you." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Sir! What I understood from this is that although Mirza Sahib himself has called his family a "self-cultivated plant," his statement is not correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I did not say that. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, it is not. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I did not say this. I said Mirza Sahib says that because my family has done this service and that is the "proof of service." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, sir, the indication is towards that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, understand my point that "the service that my family has done, for fifty years, there is proof of it. Considering this, have mercy on me and my community. This is your own cultivated plant." Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Sir! No. Look. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, this meaning that is, on this... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, that is your idea. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You say it is not? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, I say that it is not about the self-cultivated community. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is not about the community? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Another thing, I would like to say in this regard. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it about them and the family? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: It is about them and the family. Another thing I would like to say is that to say that the British did not help them, that is not the real story. These people, actually this family was expelled from Qadian and these people went from there to the state of Kapurthala... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that's right, that... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: And the British brought them back from there. This is the self-cultivated plant that Mirza Sahib is mentioning. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now tell me, this Ahmadiyya community, I am addressing you because you introduced yourself yesterday, you have also brought the allegiance of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, it's not like I have pledged allegiance to him. I was born in Qadian. I was born, as I mentioned yesterday. Madam Chairman: No, this is, this is not the question. The question is different. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If you could give a direct answer and then give your explanation. Mr. Chairman: Yes, yes, the question is, did you pledge allegiance or not? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have stated that I have. Madam Chairman: Nobody has asked the question about the place of birth. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have not pledged allegiance, I was born there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Many people are born who are not Ahmadis. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I am Ahmadi. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean, it doesn't happen that someone who is born Ahmadi automatically pledges allegiance. It's not necessary. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I was born and am Ahmadi and I am from there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, you did not do it on them... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I have never pledged allegiance in that way. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not on them? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Not in that way, I admit. 1400 1919 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In what way? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I acknowledge him in terms of age, I acknowledge him, like taking an oath of allegiance. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, yes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Since I was born into this household, I acknowledge him. Yes, and I was included in them, I was a part of their group, a member, a part of it, I was. But, the way an oath of allegiance is taken, like someone goes and pledges allegiance, I didn't do that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you had the same views until 1940 as the rest of the group. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No sir, I had severe disagreements with them in many matters. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But when did you leave? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: For example... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, when did you leave them? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That was, that was around nineteen fifty-eight. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You left in fifty-eight? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sixty-eight, sixty-eight. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In sixty-eight, this Mirza.... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Fifty-six. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Fifty-six, so when Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood was alive? CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1837 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, sir! He was alive. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You left at that time, you left from that era? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes sir, yes sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This was the opinion of people here... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: That was wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, let me tell you that... Mr. Chairman: At least listen to the point. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When Mr. Nasir Ahmad Sahib was being elected, it is said that on this occasion some people in the community thought that you would be made the Amir or Imam, and some thought that he should be made. That is, some people had this opinion, there was some disagreement on this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: The facts are before you, I have submitted. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No sir, we have no knowledge, people, some people thought this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, this is when I separated from Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad Sahib. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But no, is this the correct opinion of the people that when Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib was being elected, at that time - I am talking about the Rabwah community, not the Lahori party. Some people in their community wanted you to come in his place, as the Khalifa, no? 1838 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug., 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted that it was many years ago... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I mean is this completely wrong? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, I had separated from them many years ago. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am not talking about you. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't even listen to the question and you have the answer ready. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That when the time came to elect the Khalifa in the Rabwah community after the death of Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Sahib, some people in the Rabwah community were of the opinion that you would be a suitable third Khalifa? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: As far as I know, two names were put forward. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not talking about being put forward because... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: It is known from the proposal, it is known when there is an idea. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: People keep ideas among themselves... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes, what I know is that there were two names, one of Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib and one of Mirza Rafi Ahmad Sahib. Neither did I live in Rabwah at that time, nor was I affiliated with that community, nor did I have any connection with them, but I had completely separated from them. And to the extent that I know, because I was not present in it. To the extent of my knowledge, my name was not put forward there. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1839 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Didn't anyone even mention to you that you should be considered, that you should be taken into consideration? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No, not to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't know? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, to me, they didn't say anything to me, no one said anything to me. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So why did these disagreements of yours happen so late? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: I'm coming to that. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And on what else? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, the basis of their disagreements with me is based on a few things, the first of which is that I and the people in our household never agreed with them on the issue of Takfir al-Muslimin (declaring Muslims as infidels), never, from beginning to end. The second reason for the disagreement is that whatever status we understood Mirza Sahib to have, as a result, use the word "Muhaddith" (renewer). Say "Zilli Nabi" (Shadow Prophet), say "Broozi Nabi" (Reflective Prophet), whatever word you use, we never considered him to be a member of the category of prophets. But they make interpretations. For example, they say that Mirza Sahib was a non-legislative prophet. But the question is, does being a non-legislative prophet put Mirza Sahib in the ranks of prophets or not? Does it make him a member of the circle of prophets or not? Our belief was that Mirza Sahib, despite all his claims, is not a member of the category of prophets. The third disagreement that arose for us was about the issue of Khilafat (Caliphate). 1840 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 We did not consider their views to be in accordance with Islam and the way of Mirza Sahib. But in other matters, for example, serving Islam, spreading Islam, spreading the Quran... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just one thing, I had another question to ask you about this, that in other matters, did you agree with them? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: But in many things, no. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, no, you have explained that. I am not saying anything sarcastically. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because both are Ahmadis. It's just a matter, small matter or big matter, however you understand it, but yesterday I asked you a question and I read it out that Mirza Sahib sometimes says. Claiming Islam "the matter of contempt has come in it" Claiming Islam". About Muslims, he often says that he also used this word. "Those who claim to be Muslims" or "Claiming Islam". What did he mean by that? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Whose statement did you present? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib's. I had read out a reference from Bashir Ahmad Sahib. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But then from "Tohfa Golrahviyya" he himself says there that these people who are claiming Islam from the Muslims, he... CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1041 Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If I have the reference in front of me, then I can say something. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I read it out to you and also had you take notes. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, the reference is probably from Mirza Sahib Mahmood Ahmad..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir, he quoted Mirza Sahib from "Tohfa-e-Golarviya" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: "Tohfa-e-Golarviya" should be presented first, then..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I had you note that down, I even gave you the page number. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, you didn't present "Tohfa-e-Golarviya", you only read his quotation. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I gave it to you... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: They say that it is in "Tohfa-e-Golarviya". Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, are you saying that Mirza Sahib never said this anywhere? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, if it's in front of me, I don't have that much memory... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if it's in front of you, then what does that mean? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I don't have that much memory. Mirza Sahib's... If this writing of his is shown to me, then I will say something regarding it. If you present Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad's writing, where Mirza Sahib has written it, then I would have some hesitation in it. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will make you listen to it now. Mr. Chairman: How long will....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just five to ten minutes more, Sir. 1842 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [280 Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, here's a reference from Mr. Mirza. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I'm presenting this in "Tohfa-e-Golarviyya", sir. If you could point out where it is? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I will tell you, sir. They are bringing it. You stated at the end of your speech: "In short, there are many things of this nature that are found in people with whom God Almighty is displeased and who are opposed to the Islamic way. Therefore, God Almighty does not consider these people Muslims until they abandon their false beliefs and come to the right path. And for this purpose, God Almighty has promised me." Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: If you could tell me the page number, I will look for it here. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: One is "Tohfa-e-Golarviyya" page 56, fifty-six. Then it goes on to say something else about it. This which… Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Which page did you mention, sir? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, one is page 18. I have told you one. I don't know, there might be some difference in the edition, so I can't say for sure. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, let's see. Let's look ahead and behind. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. It is this, sir: (Pause) "When the Messiah descends, you will have to completely abandon other sects that claim Islam." CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1843 Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are the words. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, shaken. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Did you find them? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, sir. (Pause) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, "those who claim Islam" that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please read all of it so that, maybe, I have this phrase... (Pause). ........ Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So who are these people who claim Islam? What do they mean? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Those who call themselves Muslims. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Meaning they are not Muslims, they only claim to be? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: No sir, a claim can be true or false. It's not like whoever makes a claim is necessarily wrong. Those who claim Islam... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No..... Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Those who claim Islam, who say that we are Muslims, it's not just a claim, the way you... 1844 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug, 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar, this is Sahibzada's essay. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! That is why I... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look, until 1940 or until when you were right about it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir! No, I submitted, I disagree with them on many things. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You left it very late, that's why this misunderstanding arose. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes sir, I left them during their lifetime. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will tell you again. ...... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: There is a very dangerous disagreement with them in their lifetime, I have with them. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I will tell you what they meant by it, just like you are taking it. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I their meaning... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not this, because... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You forbade me that... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No..... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Don't quote others.... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: And you are quoting an enemy of mine in front of me? CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1845 Mr. Yakhiar Bakhtiar: No, you do an interpretation of one reference of Mirza Sahib, and he does another. The Assembly has to judge which one is correct. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: For that, present Mirza Sahib's book. Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar: From Mirza Sahib's book, the same reference... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: No, sir, that is not Mirza Sahib's. Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar: Of the same reference... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Sir, I will put the original book down! Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar: In the original book, the one who claims Islam, its meaning they say is "Muslim". Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: He claims Islam when he says, "I am a Muslim." This is a claim, isn't it, of mine. Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar: No... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I claim that I am a Muslim. Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar: When they say that a Muslim... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Does that mean that I am not a Muslim? Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar: No, look, what they say... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: About the one who claims Islam, I claim... Mr. Yakhi Bakhtiar: Please listen: The Promised Messiah sometimes had the thought that people might be deceived by seeing the word Muslim in my writings regarding non-Ahmadis. That's why you... 1846 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [29th Aug., 1974 Here and there, as a remedy, such words were also written about non-Ahmadis that those people are deceitful to Islam. Now this is the contention. Now you will say you are Ahmadi. I will say no, you claim to be Ahmadi. This is a big difference. That claim can be proven. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I mentioned another sentence of the same kind that I claim that I am a Muslim. What does that mean? Am I not a Muslim? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then why don't you say "Muslim" that we Muslims are doing this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: You should see, after all, a writer describes the expression of a writer. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Okay, the last thing is the same as what you did yesterday. You also didn't clear that up. Because Mr. Speaker also, in my opinion, doesn't want to give even five minutes yet, and you said yesterday that a person who does not believe in a prophet, the prophet of God, then he becomes a sinner, not an infidel. Except for the Holy Prophet. I am not saying that the Holy Prophet is ours, no, I am not talking about him. Like Jesus or Moses. The one who doesn't believe in them, says "I am a Muslim. There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." But like Jesus, I absolutely do not believe in him, whether he was a drunkard, a storyteller or a liar, or he says something like that, God forbid. So then is he not an infidel? You said that he comes in the category below disbelief, he is a sinner. Is this correct? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I submitted this, I will repeat it again, CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION [847 Perhaps the matter will become clear that there are two types of disbelief. There are two types of disbelief. One type of disbelief is to deny Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, [to deny] La ilaha illallah Muhammad Rasulullah. In my opinion, this is the greatest disbelief. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Great disbelief, okay, you said it correctly. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes. After that, there are hundreds of levels of disbelief, many small and big levels. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I understand, sir, that's what I'm saying, you are repeating it again. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, I am saying exactly the same thing... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: That in my opinion, one disbelief, the real disbelief that I call... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, this is the second level of disbelief, which does not believe in any prophet? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, sir, other than Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, sir. And you also said that it is the command of Allah and the Messenger that the Promised Messiah will come, and whoever does not believe in him does not believe in Allah and the Messenger. So, according to your belief, whoever does not believe in him also falls into the lower level of disbelief? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: He becomes a sinner. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He becomes a sinner, meaning a lower degree of disbelief? Mr. Abdul Manan Omar: Yes, in the sense of a sinner. Zain Aug., 1914 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Have you also admitted this? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then I asked you, "Who are the true Muslims?" Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You said that one who follows the commands of God and the Messenger, is a good man. There can be a very long discussion on this. That true Muslim of yours, I said, the one who is a true Muslim, can he be a non-Ahmadi? You did not give me the correct answer to this. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will explain again, although you will judge right and wrong. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because he does not believe, he does not believe in God and... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I will explain what I understand. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Keep in mind that according to you, the command of God and the Messenger is that Mirza Sahib is the promised Messiah, believe in him. He does not believe. So on the one hand, he becomes a sinner and a disbeliever. Then can he also be a true Muslim? This is the question. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: I had submitted this, and I submit again, that a person who denies the Holy Prophet, in the real sense, in the true sense, in the complete sense, he becomes a disbeliever. Apart from this, as many elements of faith there are, for example, Al-Hayaa min al-Iman, that modesty is also an element of faith... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You see. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1849 Mr. Chairman: The witness should give a definite answer to this question. This question has been repeated three times. This should be given a definite answer. And if the witness... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, you say that it is the order of God and the Prophet to believe in Mirza Sahib. And a man denies it... Mr. Chairman: And if... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib says that he has become a sinner or an infidel, of a lower degree. So a sinner and an infidel of a lower degree is not a good Muslim? Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Look at this... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: This is correct, absolutely correct. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That a true Muslim can only be one who is not a sinner or an infidel of any kind. Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: Absolutely. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So that's all I... Mr. Abdul Mannan Omar: But yes, I... Mr. Chairman: That's all? Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That's all, Sir. Mr. Abdul Mannan Umar: Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. 1850 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (28th Aug, 1974 Mr. Abdul Mannan Umar: Thank you. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is permitted to withdraw, subject to those references....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We want to ask a question, sir, what is your estimate of the Ahmadi population in Pakistan? We are asking because of that. Mr. Abdul Mannan Umar: We have no estimate. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, look, you might have an estimate, because a figure is given in the Munir Report, a different figure is given here, and nothing is given in the census. If you know the estimate of the number of people in your party, whether they are talking about their own party or yours, so that we can get some idea. Mr. Abdul Mannan Umar: Sir, we have no estimate, nor have we ever conducted a census. The government sources might be more, they might be able to give a more accurate figure. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't have any? Mr. Abdul Mannan Umar: No, we don't have figures. Mr. Chairman: The Delegation is permitted to withdraw, subject to the reply of the references which have been given to the Delegation. A written reply may be filed within three days with the explanation. The Delegation can be called before the Committee anytime before the Committee finally concludes its findings, if need be. The Delegation may be asked or requested to give its view on some points which may crop up during the course of arguments, during the discussion. Till the final, till the assembly publishes the report, no proceedings of this Committee shall be communicated to any person. CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1851 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And one, Sir, one request. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will request the Delegation that if they want to add anything to whatever they have stated in reply to any of the questions, they may kindly do that. Mr. Chairman: And....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To the witness) Or if you don't want to do it now, send it in writing. If you want to clarify any further point, then you give it to the secretary within two or three days so that clarification... Mr. Chairman: Three days, three days. Today is 28th. 29, 30, by 31st. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: By 31st. Mr. Chairman: There is a written request by the secretary of the Delegation that he may kindly be allowed to make a submission for five minutes. This can also come as written. And whatever is....... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar; No, if he wants to make it now, let him make it now. Mr. Chairman: No. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Thank you everyone is done. And whatever comes in writing, we will circulate it among the members. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but if he wants only five minutes to add something..... 1852 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [28th Aug. 1974 Mr. Chairman: Sir, we have to go there also. That matter. At 5.00, we have to reach there. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think this should come now. He has requested, Sir. Mr. Chairman: Speak, Sir. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, let him speak. Mirza Masood Baig: Very well, thank you very much. Sir, I thank you for granting the request. I dared to do this, firstly, to thank you, as you listened to our points with great generosity and patience. My esteemed friend, the Attorney General... Mr. Chairman: (To the librarian) You gather the books. Mirza Masood Baig: Sir? Mr. Chairman: I am telling them to gather the books, I said, gather them. Mirza Masood Baig: My esteemed friend, the Attorney General, stated two or three times yesterday that you have been called to help the Assembly reach a correct decision. And I believe it is your kindness that you asked us everything to reach a correct decision. So, two days yesterday, yesterday and today. And before that, for fifteen days, there was a lot of discussion on Mirza Sahib's claims, etc. And your intention is to understand their position, what they were. So, one of their claims, which has not been discussed at all, I would like to draw your attention to that, that they had another claim as well which was not discussed. That claim was that they have no claim other than being servants of Islam. Mirza Sahib ...His life's purpose was nothing but serving Islam. So, from this aspect as well, they should have been judged to see what their contribution is, what they did. Mr. Speaker! If it is true that a tree is known by its fruit, then Mirza Sahib's fruits are not bad. Mirza Sahib served Islam... Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Mr. Chairman! Point of order. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The question is, we believe that thanks have been given. But they should not be allowed to convince... Mr. Chairman: I said that. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: He is convincing the members. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mirza Masood Baig: No, I am just submitting. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: Let them give a written statement, it will be circulated. Mr. Chairman: Write it down, it would be better. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: Write it down, it will be circulated. Mr. Chairman: U, it would be better if you send it in writing. Mirza Masood Baig: Very well. Mr. Chairman: That would be better. That's why I... Mirza Masood Baig: I said, sir! That you... 1854 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 28th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: No, nobody is allowed to speak like this. I said it for that reason. Then they spoke, so... Only the questions. Mirza Masood Baig: Thank you, Sir! Mr. Chairman: Okay. Whatever you send in writing, we will circulate among the Assembly members. Please sit down. Now the head of the community… (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: I request the honorable members, especially Haji Maula Bakhsh Soomro and Saiyid Abbas Hussain Gardezi, please, for five minutes, have patience. Now I will request the head of the community to testify on oath that whatever has been said by the secretary or by any of the witnesses or any other member of the Delegation, he swears that whatever has been said, he owns it and it is from him. Administer the oath to him and have him say that whatever has been said has been said on my behalf. However, whatever method you use, read it out. Please come forward. Maulana Sadruddin: Gentlemen! My submission is that I am responsible for whatever statements my friends have made. I take responsibility. And whatever they have said is correct. Mr. Chairman: Thank you. The Delegation is permitted to withdraw. The honorable members may remain seated. You may leave. Reporters can go too. They are free. No recording. Tomorrow at 6:00 PM we will meet as a House Committee, not as the National Assembly. And at 3:30 we will leave for the funeral. The Special Committee of the Whole House subsequently adjourned to meet at six o'clock in the afternoon on Thursday, August 29, 1974. PCPP-1101(10)NA-7-4-2011-450 No. 14 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Thursday, August 29, 1974 Contains Nos. 1-21 CONTENTS Pages 1. Report about Ch. Mohammad Iqbal, Ex-MNA's Fatal Accident. 1860-1861 2. Procedure for General Discussion on the Qadiani Issue 1861-1874 3. Qadiani Issue-General Discussion Continued. 1874-1924. PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD. PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD. No. 14 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Thursday, August 29, 1974 Contains Nos. 1-21 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Thursday, August 29, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at six o' clock in the afternoon, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN 1859 REPORT ABOUT CH. MOHAMMAD IQBAL, EX-MNA'S FATAL ACCIDENT Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: Mr. Speaker, as far as I remember, regarding Chaudhry Iqbal Sahib's accident, you had said that when its proceedings come, you will inform the House. According to the information received, the driver did not even have a license and was driving irresponsibly. I think, as far as I remember, this House has not been informed yet. Mr. Chairman, they have not informed. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: After all, he was also a respected member of this House. Mr. Chairman: I will write a letter to them about this, asking to be informed about what proceedings took place and what the ultimate result of this inquiry was. No one has informed us yet. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: Because he was a respected member... Mr. Chairman: There is no information yet. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: He was on duty for this House and was returning from duty, due to which... Mr. Chairman: We will convey, we will write a letter to them asking why they haven't responded, and when the response comes, I will convey it to the House. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Mr. Speaker, Members of the Assembly, as you know, he often went to Sukkur, and he is a little late in coming, and he has not been able to come here yet. So, it is also time for prayer, so... Mr. Chairman: One minute, I was just about to say that. Get confirmation from Mufti Sahib, then A copy of the resolution will be sent to the heirs of the deceased, and on our own, we will write to the provincial government Write to them that not only should the investigation be completed quickly, but it should also be traced and we should be informed, with these words, I think the quorum is complete anyway. PROCEDURE FOR GENERAL DISCUSSION ON THE QADIANI ISSUE Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Then why should we waste time? Let's start the work, decide on the procedure. If we have to talk about something new today, we will take a break after ten minutes because unnecessarily we Mr. Chairman: Anyway, it's time for Maghrib. Malik Muhammad Akhtar: If it's time, then it's fine. Mr. Chairman: There is a difference in these watches too, it is two minutes behind. Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Okay, if it's time then it's fine. Mr. Chairman: Then we will meet at 7.30 p.m. In the ,meantime, I will discuss procedure, maulana Sahib how to starts. Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Before adjourning, please consider whether someone might want to talk to you about this book related to the second resolution. Does that mean we will go to the second resolution without discussing the first one, or will we take the second one first, or will we take both together? Mr. Chairman: This is open. Both can be taken up together. This is open for the members to settle whatever they like. Malik Muhammad Akhtar: You decide as you have to do. Mr. Chairman: Because rules will not apply to it, we will adopt our own procedure. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: My opinion in this regard is that there were movements at that time. The first motion that Mr. Pirzada Sahib presented was not in the form of a resolution. It only stated that there should be a discussion on the status in Islam of those who do not believe in the finality of prophethood. And the second one had taken the form of a resolution. So, in my opinion, it is all the same thing, and everyone can discuss it together. Mr. Chairman: There will be a joint discussion. Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Sir, we have no objection if both come under discussion together. Both motions will proceed. Mr. Chairman: We have not yet put it to vote. We... Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Mr. Chairman, first a resolution was presented by Pirzada Sahib, then a resolution was presented by the opposition members. And there it was a proposal or expression. We presented a proposal. It was not a proposal but a bill. We presented a proposal on behalf of three members. It was duly entered there. So, we should have proper permission to discuss this matter. Mr. Chairman: It will be proper. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: And the permission should be such that just as they have given their statement, we should also give ours. Mr. Chairman: After Maghrib, Maulana! We will sit here. First of all, we will discuss the procedure. We will then discuss the procedure we discussed earlier. Members who wish to give oral statements, read or participate in the debate, should come here and appear as witnesses. You have every right to do whatever you deem appropriate. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: I want to clarify my position that we are not here as witnesses, like the two parties presented themselves. We are not prepared to take the position of a party against them in this matter. We believe that our position is the position of all Muslims. We are not prepared to become a party for them in this. Besides, the situation is that we are here as a member, and the members have the right to discuss it to clarify the facts, and as a member, we can discuss it. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: We give arguments. That's why we have collected those arguments in the form of a motion, so we will take your permission, and we will read it out. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: And our position will be that if we appear as witnesses, then I think we cannot be judges and we cannot decide on it. Mr. Chairman: Because if they appear as witnesses, then they cannot vote. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Yes, then they cannot vote. Mr. Chairman: It is obvious. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: This issue may be presented in the Rahbar Committee. A decision will be made in it regarding the procedure. Mr. Chairman: Yes, this will be discussed. When we restart after the prayer, then we will discuss it. I would like to request that when you people participate in the discussion, also give suggestions, that this suggestion is correct, this is wrong. SEMA VE PANDIAN 14th August, 1974 Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: We can explain it this way: either we speak as a member. This assembly is here to make decisions, it is in the capacity of a judge, it is here to pass the law of the country. Either we debate in this capacity, and this is the correct capacity, or we raise slogans. Mr. Chairman: Okay, as you see fit. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Next is the steering committee. Mr. Chairman: After that, the steering committee will sit down on all your proceedings and finalize them. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: My request is that we had decided in the steering committee how we would present ourselves. If we appear as witnesses, then I believe we cannot use our vote as judges. Mr. Chairman: Yes, then there will be no vote. Natural justice is also the same, as Maulana Sahib has stated, that when they appear as witnesses, then... Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi: Sir, I want to make a small request, and that is, as Maulana Sahib has stated, that when they appear as witnesses, then their status as judges will be compromised. But there is a problem, and I want it to be clarified in some way. That is, Sir, they have said many things as a party, in which I believe that I am one of the members of the House whose knowledge in this regard is limited. For example, they have presented such fatwas in which many indecent and inappropriate words have been used by scholars of one school of thought against scholars of another school of thought or against Muslims. Therefore, I... I would like to request through you, Mr. Maulana, that you may remain a حج (Hajj), but along with that, if you provide an opportunity to two or three scholars sitting here to at least respond to their objections and charges. Mr. Chairman, please give them this advice privately. Sardar Inayat-ur-Rahman Khan Abbasi: No, sir, it's not a matter of advice. I want, sir! I need a party that refutes in this regard, or else they should allow us to say what is correct in this matter. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: In this regard, I would like to submit... Mr. Chairman: No, sir, we will discuss this. The House is adjourned to meet at 7.30 p.m. [The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib prayers to meet at 7.30 p.m.] [The Special committee re-assembled after Maghrib Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali in the Chair] Mr. Chairman: I will request the honourable members to be attentive. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: I will give speeches later. As for the previous proceedings, I will read out some portions from them to remind you. According to that, we will decide on our procedure. The Steering Committee made decisions on the 13th of July. The first operative portion in it, first, is the portion of the Coakleys. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 29, 1974 "Before the resolutions moved by the various members are considered in the Special committee, the movers may make statement and explain their view-point before the Steering committee." In the House, it was decided that after the statement of Ahmadia Community (this was on July 12th, 1974) has been recorded, and questions have been answered, members of the House will have the right to have their observations and views recorded before the Special Committee in the light of the material that has come before the Special Committee. Mian Mohammad Attaullah: Lahori Jamaat Also, Mr. Chairman: Yes. Malik Mohammad Akhtar: It will be a sort of written statement. Mr. Chairman: Yes. They should submit their views in writing and also have liberty to have their written statements recorded on oath. Mr. Chairman: This is what the House has decided. Now, the honorable members can do whatever they want. Whether they want to participate in the discussion, whether they want to say it verbally, whether they want to tell it in writing. Besides that, if they want, they can also give a statement on oath if they have any facts in their special knowledge. All of this is up to the discretion of the honorable members, as they deem fit. But one thing I would like to submit. I had submitted that I inquired from Maulana Mufti Mahmood and Professor Ghafoor Ahmed, and they had stated that they would take two days, one day Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi and Maulana Abdul Haleem would take. And regarding the rest of the gentlemen, Pirzada Sahib has told me that they will take one or two days. This means that there will be a general discussion for four or five days. Therefore, a general discussion has also been kept so that the members can freely express their opinions in the Special Committee. In this, I will only request that when you express your views, whether you present something on your own behalf in light of their statements or refute them, along with that, it is also necessary that you also give your suggestions that if it is declared a minority, then what what will be its benefits, what will be its disadvantages. In addition, what should be the procedure? Should the constitution be amended, or should there be any pre-legislation, or should it not be declared a minority? In In this, you will keep all these matters in mind, then finally, when the discussion ends, the Steering Committee will It will be easier because all the gentlemen's suggestions will be in front of it. As many resolutions as have been submitted Or a resolution has been submitted by Pirzada Sahib. A resolution of twenty-two members Gentlemen have presented and a resolution of three members gentlemen have presented, a Malik Muhammad Jafar Sahib has presented. All four resolutions will be considered together. Not that first One resolution is discussed, then the second, then the third. All four of the The resolutions that are there will be considered together. A resolution was also presented by Sardar Shaukat Hayat. Mr. Nematullah Khan Shinwari Sir! One is ours too. Mr. Chairman: Yes, one is yours too. There are seven resolutions. All those Resolutions, once again, after being cyclostyled, will be circulated to all the members so that They can refresh their memory; and in the light of these ,resolutions they can also give their recommendations. And in addition, members Whatever suggestions the gentlemen make, if they give it in writing, it will also be included with it, then it will automatically come on record. For this, if the members want to take more time, then time But there is no restriction. But you will have to sit more in it. In this, you will have to do two, friends, in the same way, and you will have to sit on Sunday as well. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: Point of order, Sir, you have said that if any member wants to give a statement on oath, he can. So, my point in asking this was that the one who gives a statement on oath, in my opinion, will he give a statement as a witness? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: And the one who gives a statement as a witness, can he also be cross-examined? Mr. Chairman: Of course, there can be cross-examination. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: Usually, the discussion will be done like this. Mr. Chairman: Like this. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: If someone appears as a witness, then there will be cross-examination on him, then he will not be able to vote in it. Mr. Chairman: There will definitely be cross-examination, and he should morally not vote. Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, I will request information. Meer Darya Khan Khoso: My request is that testimony should not be taken from the members. Mr. Chairman: It is up to you. Meer Darya Khan Khoso: I would like to submit that if you want to take testimony, we can get many scholars we know from outside. If you start taking testimony from the members and start cross-examining the members, then this is not a good tradition. Mr. Chairman: Sir, this is optional! Mir Darya Khan Khoso: I would like to submit that this should not be the way, honourable members should participate in the general discussion. Mr. Chairman: Okay, it is up to you. Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, my request and submission is that, as you said, there may be many resolutions before the House; there may be, Sir, many things. Therefore, only those resolutions which are not in common should be discussed and those which are in common should not be discussed. Mr. Chairman: The honourable members can point out these things in their arguments that these are common. Let us agree on this proposal. Strictly speaking, we are not following the procedure which is followed normally in legislation. Mr. Abbas Hussain Gardezi: Mr. Speaker, I agree with the suggestion of Mr. Khoso that no member should be presented as a witness. Mr. Chairman: This issue is over, let's talk about something else. Mr. Abbas Hussain Gardezi: The second thing is that I should be given 15 minutes. Mr. Chairman: Instead of 15 minutes, you can take half an hour, Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti! Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Mr. Speaker, I agree with the suggestion that Jatoi Sahib has made. Mr. Chairman: I request Sardar Abdul Aleem to give me a list by tomorrow of the members who want to participate in the discussion, and also indicate the estimated time, list the participants who want to express something. I shall be grateful; as he is the Whip of the Party. Barq Saheb. Mian Muhammad Ibrahim Barq, when do we begin? Mr. Chairman: We do not wait for anything. I will give the floor to Mufti Sahib. Mian Muhammad Ibrahim Barqi: Alright. Mr. Chairman, Raad Muhammad Hashim! Mr. M. Hashim Khan: Sir! I want to ask that after the Special Committee, when the open session is held in the National Assembly, will there also be an opportunity to speak? Mr. Chairman: We will decide later what stage we reach. Please sit down so that this is also clear. You have recorded their statements, both parties, and after that you will give your opinion, debate... After that, the Steering Committee will meet. It will finalize a recommendation. I hope that the Committee of the Whole House will unanimously approve these recommendations. After approval, these recommendations will be presented in the National Assembly. For example, it presents a recommendation that there should be legislation on it, an amendment should be made to the constitution. Then there is no need for discussion in the National Assembly or debating its recommendations. It is premature at this stage to say whether there will be..... Mian Masood Ahmed: Sir! My request is that the leaders of the parties who have presented resolutions should be asked if they are satisfied with the evidence they have given or if they will provide any evidence in its rebuttal. Mr. Chairman: Now my request is Malik Muhammad Jafar! Malik Muhammad Jafar: Mr. Speaker! You have said that a list should be given of the members who want to participate in the discussion. I request that there is a general meeting, there is a special bill in it, there is a resolution. So that's right. And there are 3-4-5 resolutions in the committee. Then there will be amendments in them, the way we have been working in the Constitutional Committee, you don't need to be so strict. Malik Muhammad Jafar: Don't be so strict. Mr. Chairman: There is no restriction. Malik Muhammad Jafar: It is possible that a proposal may be presented in the middle regarding it. Sir, as far as possible, the National Assembly...... Mr. Chairman: No, no, I have not been strict. I have never been strict even in the National Assembly. Just for convenience purpose, so that I could adjust timings. Mr. Muhammad Khan Chaudhry: Mr. Speaker! It is requested that we are representatives of the public. We have received many letters that we should participate in the discussion. All the proceedings should be published. 1012 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 29th, 1974 Mr. Chairman: All these proceedings will be published. That's why it was kept in camera. Member should not play to the gallery. The members should come with some realistic approach to the problem. The members should sit without making any comments. These laws will definitely be presented. But Mr. Muhammad Khan! Whatever you say here, you will not reveal it outside, absolutely not. Mr. Shinwari! Mr. Nematullah Khan Shinwari: To date, we have received reports up to the 24th. If we don't get the rest of the reports, how will we give speeches? Mr. Chairman: You will get the rest as well. Mr. Nematullah Khan Shinwari: That's what I said, the speeches should be held after two days. Mr. Chairman: No adjournment. Take it for granted. Mufti Sahib will take two days. Mufti Sahib! Please begin. Mr. Nematullah Khan Shinwari: After Mufti Sahib's speech ends, the speeches will end. Mr. Chairman: I knew there would be difficulties along the way. I have requested Mufti Sahib to start. Mr. Nematullah Khan Shinwari: Until his speech is done, will we get the rest of the speeches? Mr. Chairman: Dr. Shafi! Dr. Muhammad Shafi: It has been mentioned many times before, The Samdani Report is also very relevant. Let us have a copy of that also. Mr. Chairman: I told the House; let the Law Minister come because it is not in my possession. The Government will release the Report; I cannot release it. I have noted it down. Therefore, when tomorrow Pirzada comes, I will take up this matter. Malik Muhammad Akhtar will have them psycho typed. Mr. Chairman: Photocopies will be available in a minute. Shahzada Saeed-ur-Rasheed Abbasi: I was just about to say that. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Shahadat Sahib! Rai Shahadat Ali Khan: Sir, in today's proceedings, Mirzais and Ahmadis have presented their point of view, what their point of view is, and how they understand Islam. Mr. Chairman: That is what we will discuss, that they are not Muslims because of this, they are non-Ahmadi because of this, this is the reason, that is the reason. Please sit down. Okay, anyone else? We should start with it? No other proposal? Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, as my previous speaker friend told that anybody who wants to speak or express his views, he must express whether he is a Qadiani or Ahmadi. Mr. Chairman: No, no, rejected. Absolutely, it is rejected. There is a small book; there will be a discussion on it. Chaudhary Mumtaz Ahmad: On the condition that this experience be approved, whether they are Shia or Sunni or what. Mr. Chairman: I will request the honourable members that now the discussion will be among the members, so I request them not to be hasty and not to leave the House before we finally conclude. Absolutely, this is wrong. Mufti Sahib! Call them for the speech and start the speech. (Intervention) Rana Mohammad Hanif Khan (Minister for Labour and Works): Before him, may I be permitted. Mr. Chairman: Sir, I am not talking of walk-out, although they walk stealthily out of that door, and leaving ten members here. Mr. Abbas Hussain Gardezi: Mr. Speaker! A point of clarification is required. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: I call the House to order. Rana Mohammad Hanif Khan: After some time I may be permitted because I have to leave. Mr. Chairman: This is not the final session. Mr. Abbas Hussain Gardezi: Mr. Speaker! I request that, can written speeches be read? Mr. Chairman: Yes, sir, you can read. You can even read poetry. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: You can write what you have read and then read it. (Interruptions) QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Mr. Chairman: Mufti Mahmood! Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Sir, all the references in this speech, from books, newspapers, those books or newspapers, we have delivered them here. If any gentleman wants, they can go to the library and see these references from there. There is no book or reference that is not present there. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION The Islamic Stance Regarding Declaring Qadianis a Muslim Minority National Assembly Pakistan's Resolution Under Consideration Explanatory Note For Study by the Special Committee From Members of the National Assembly of Pakistan 18/3 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 29th, 1974) "And who is more unjust than one who invents a lie about Allah or says, "It has been inspired to me," while nothing has been inspired to him?" Translation: And who is more unjust than the one who invents a lie about Allah, or says that revelation comes to him, even though no revelation has come to him." Quran Kareem "There will be thirty liars in my Ummah (nation). Each one will claim that he is a prophet, and I am the Seal of the Prophets. There will be no prophet after me." Translation: Thirty liars will be born in my Ummah. Each one will claim to be a prophet, while I am the Seal of the Prophets. There is no prophet after me. A Plea from the Painter of Pakistan (Referenced from Sahih Muslim) "In my opinion, the best course of action for the government would be to recognize the Qadianis as a separate community. This would be in complete accordance with the policy of the Qadianis, and Muslims would treat them with the same tolerance as they do with other religious minorities." Allama Iqbal, or 2 Letters of Iqbal, p. 118, published Lahore "The Muslim nation has every right to demand that the Qadianis be separated." "If the government does not accept this demand, Muslims will suspect that the government is supporting this new religion." 10/1 QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION The government is delaying the separation. It did not wait in 1919 for the Sikhs to separate from the Hindus. Why is it waiting now to demand this from the Qadianis? Mirza Bashir Ahmad Qadiani, son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's opinion (Harf-e-Iqbal) The claim of the Promised Messiah (meaning Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib) that he is an appointee from Allah Almighty and that Allah Almighty speaks to him, is not without two possibilities. Either, God forbid, he is lying in his claim and is merely claiming as a fabrication against Allah. In such a case, not only is he an infidel, but a great infidel. Or, the Promised Messiah is truthful in his claim of revelation, and God speaks to him. In that case, undoubtedly, this will fall heavily upon the denier. So now you have the choice either to call the deniers of the Promised Messiah Muslims and issue a decree of infidelity against the Promised Messiah, or to believe the Promised Messiah to be true and consider his deniers to be infidels. It cannot be that you consider both to be Muslims." "Kalimatul Fasl" by Mirza Bashir Ahmad M.A.: 123 Quoted from Review of Religions: Volume 14 March-April 1915 A saying of Amir Jamaat Lahore Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib "The Ahmadiyya Movement stands in the same relation to Islam in which Christianity stood to Judaism." Translation: "The Ahmadiyya Movement has the same relationship with Islam as Christianity has with Judaism." Quotation from Mujaddid Rawalpindi, printed Qadian p. 240 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [29th August, 1974 Contents Resolution Movers of the Resolution Part One: The Belief in the Finality of Prophethood and the Mirzais The Belief in the Finality of Prophethood -11- Mirza Sahib's Gradual Claims 17. Mirza Sahib's Final Belief 18. The Myth of Non-Legislative Prophethood 19. Mirza Sahib's Claim to Prophethood Explained 19. No Distinction in the Finality of Prophethood 21. The Myth of Allegorical and Reflected Prophethood 24. Claiming to be the Holy Prophet (PBUH) 25. The Reality of Believing in Khatam-un-Nabiyyin 28. Even Superior to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) 28. Anyone Can Be Greater Than the Holy Prophet (PBUH) 30. The Logical Conclusion of the Claim to Prophethood 32. The Mirzais' Own Belief That They Are a Separate Nation 34. Writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 34. Fatwas of Hakeem Noor-ud-Din 37. Fatwas of the Second Khalifa, Mirza Mahmood 38. Sayings of Mirza Basheer Ahmad 39. Sayings of Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib 40. Practical Disconnection from Muslims 41. Prayers and Marriages Behind Non-Ahmadis 41. Funeral Prayers for Non-Ahmadis 42. Quaid-e-Azam's Funeral Prayers and Chaudhry Zafarullah 43. Demand to Declare Themselves as a Separate Minority 44. Important Warning Regarding Mirzai Statements 44. The Reality of the Lahori Group 47. The Lahori Group's Sworn Statement -49. There Is No Difference Between the Qadiani and Lahori Groups 51. The Reality of Denying "Nabi" (Prophet) 52. The Issue of Takfir (Declaring Someone an Infidel) 56. Reasons for the Lahori Group's Disbelief 59. Part Two: Glimpses of Mirzai Prophethood 59 Further Blasphemies and Impieties 63. About Allah Almighty 63. Distortion and Blasphemies of the Holy Quran 64. Mirzai "Revelation" Equal to the Quran 67. Blasphemy Against the Dignity of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) 70. Insulting the Companions 71. Insulting the Ahl al-Bayt 12. Insulting Islamic symbols 72. A few revelations of Mirza Sahib - 74. Predictions of Mirza Sahib 77 - Marriage with Muhammadi Begum 77. Prediction of Atham's death 79. Mourning in Qadian 80. Part Three: The Decision of the Islamic World 84 Fatwas 86 - Demand of 33 scholars 87 - Resolution of the Muslim World League 88 - Court Decisions 92. Decision of Bahawalpur Case 92 - Response to the decision of Madrass High Court 94. Decision of Rawalpindi Case 96 - Case in which Abad was decided 97 - Decision of Mauritius Supreme Court 98 - Opinion of the painter of Pakistan, Allama Iqbal 100 - 100 Part Four: Some Mirzaite Fallacies 103 The issue of declaring those who recite the Kalima as infidels 105. Fatwas of mutual Takfir of Muslims 109. Two narrations 111. A verse from the Holy Quran 117. Incorrect references of some Sufis 119. The reality of the sayings of the predecessors in religion 119. The reality of the sayings of the predecessors in the Mirzaite religion 120. Style of Sufis 141 - Explicit betrayal of Mirza Sahib in the statement of Mujaddid Alif Thani 123. Mulla Ali Qari 124. Sheikh Ibn Arabi and Sheikh Sharani 125. Part Five: Anti-Islamic Nature of Mirzait 127 - Political Background 129. The last half of the eighteenth century and Western colonialism 127 - The British and the Subcontinent 130 - The era of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and the state of the Islamic world 131. The need for a disciple prophet 132. Mirza Sahib and his family 133. Part Six: Abrogation of the Islamic Doctrine of Jihad 137. The Reality of Mirzaite Interpretations 140. Islamic Jihad is Abrogated, Mirzaite Jihad is Permissible 144. The Reality of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's "Preaching Services" 146. Literary Collection 148. Part Seven: Mirzaism and the Islamic World 152. Iraq and Baghdad 152. The First Mirzaite Governor After the Conquest of Iraq 153. The Issue of Palestine and the Establishment of Israel to Date 153. Israel Mission 159. Mutual Collaboration Between Mirzaism and Judaism 161. Ottoman Caliphate and Turkey 164. Afghanistan 165. Appeal to the League of Nations for Intervention Against Afghanistan 166. Amir Amanullah Khan Foolishly Started a War Against the British 166. Reasonable Assistance of Mirzaities to the British in the Battle of Kamil 166. Colonial Activities in African Countries 167. Zionism's Vanguard in Africa 170. Millions and Billions of Capital 171. Welfare of the Muslims of the Subcontinent and the Role of Mirzaities 173. Undivided India, the Alliance Between Hindus and Qadianis 175. Reasons for Opposing the Establishment of Pakistan 178. Anti-Muslims of the Partition of India 179. Trying to Unite Again in Some Way 180. Demand for Ahmadi Vatican City 181. Political Ambitions and Anti-National Activities 185. Not a Religious, But a Political Organization 185. Plan for a Qadiani State in Pakistan 187. Plan to Occupy All Departments and Key Positions 189. The Importance of Key Positions 190. Parallel System of Government 191. Plan to Occupy Balochistan 192. Final Heartfelt Report 199. QADIANI (GENERAL DISCUSSION Belief in the Finality of Prophethood And Mirzai Groups 1881 We have stated in our resolution that: It is an established fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian claimed to be a prophet after the last prophet, Muhammad. The completion and explanation of this is being presented in the following pages. 1883 Mr. Speaker, National Assembly of Pakistan In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Resolution We seek permission to present the following motion: Respected Sir! Whereas, it is a completely accepted fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian claimed to be a prophet after the last prophet, Hazrat Muhammad , and also whereas his false declaration of prophethood, his attempts to deny many Quranic verses, and his efforts to abolish Jihad were betrayals against the major precepts of Islam. And whereas he was a product of imperialism and his sole purpose was to destroy the unity of Muslims and to deny Islam. And whereas the entire Muslim Ummah is in agreement that the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, whether they believe in the prophethood of the aforementioned Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or consider him their reformer or guide in any way, are outside the pale of Islam. And whereas their followers, whatever name they may be given, are engaged in subversive activities internally and externally by mingling with Muslims and pretending to be a sect of Islam. And whereas, in a conference of global Muslim organizations held in the holy city of Makkah al-Mukarramah under the auspices of Rabita al-Alam al-Islami between April 10 and 16, 1974, in which delegations from 140 Muslim organizations and institutions from all parts of the world participated, it was unanimously It has been expressed as an opinion that Qadianism is a subversive movement against Islam and the Muslim world, which claims to be an Islamic sect. Now, this assembly should proceed to declare that the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, whatever name they may be given, are not Muslims, and that a government bill be introduced in the National Assembly to make this declaration effective and to enact provisions in the Constitution in order to protect their legitimate rights and interests as a non-Muslim minority of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. appropriate and necessary amendments be made. 1. 2. 0 Signature of Maulvi Mufti Mahmood M Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani Siddiqui Professor Ghafoor Ahmed Maulana Syed Muhammad Ali Rizvi Maulana Abdul Haq Akora Khattak Chaudhry Zahoor Elahi Sardar Sher Baz Khan Mazari Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi Al Sahibzada Ahmed Raza Khan Tasweeri Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui Movers of the Resolution Kha And Tahaffuz Haji Ali Ahmed Talpur Raad Khurshid Ali Khan Rais Ata Muhammad Khan Marri Note: Later, the following members also signed the resolution: 23 Signatures of Nawabzada Mian Muhammad Zakir Qureshi 25 _M Ho. Mr. Ghulam Hassan Khimal Dhandla Mr. Garam Bakhsh Awan Sahibzada Muhammad Nazir Sultan Mehr Ghulam Haider Bharwana Mian Muhammad Ibrahim Barq 29- Sahibzada Safiullah 30 Sahibzada Nematullah Khan Shinwari Malik Jahangir Khan Mr. Abdul Masih Jan Khan Mr. Akbar Khan Mohmand Major General Jamaldar Haji Saleh Khan Mr. Abdul Malik Khan Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja S 32 34 " Fy 4 _1% Maulana Soor al-Shaheed Maulvi Nematullah Mr. Girah Khan Muhammad Dam Noor Muhammad Mr. Ghulam Farooq Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro Sardar Shaukat Hayat Khan " 13 God 15. _M _IA _19 In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, and blessings and peace be upon His Messenger, the Seal of the Prophets, and upon his family and all his companions, and upon those who follow them in goodness until the Day of Judgment. Besides the belief in the Oneness of Allah and the Hereafter, the fundamental belief upon which Islam is based is that the sacred series of prophethood and messengership has been completed on the last prophet, Muhammad Mustafa ﷺ, and that after him, no person can become a prophet of any kind, nor can revelation descend upon anyone after him, nor such inspiration that is a proof in religion. This belief of Islam is known as "The Finality of Prophethood," and from the time of the Holy Prophet ﷺ until today, the entire Muslim Ummah, without any minor disagreement, considers this belief an integral part of faith. Without exaggeration, dozens of verses of the Holy Quran and hundreds of hadiths of the Holy Prophet ﷺ are its witnesses. This issue is absolutely certain and settled, and countless detailed books have also been published on this subject. It is both unnecessary and lengthy to quote all those verses and hadiths here. However, what I would like to draw special attention to here is that the Holy Prophet ﷺ, along with hundreds of explanations of the belief in the Finality of Prophethood, also gave this advance notice: "The Hour will not be established until about thirty impostors and liars appear, each of them claiming to be the Messenger of Allah." (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, etc.) He also said: "Indeed, there will be thirty liars in my Ummah, each of them claiming to be a prophet, but I am the Seal of the Prophets, and there is no prophet after me." Soon, false claimants will arise in my Ummah, each claiming to be a prophet, even though I am the Seal of the Prophets, and there will be no prophet after me. (Sahih Muslim) In this Hadith, you have used the word "Dajjal" for those who claim prophethood after you, which literally means "severe deceiver." Through this word, the Prophet (peace be upon him) has warned the entire Ummah that those who claim prophethood after him will use deceit and deception instead of openly declaring separation from Islam, and they will claim prophethood while presenting themselves as Muslims. For this purpose, they will try to make such alterations in the established beliefs of the Ummah that they can deceive some ignorant people. To avoid this deception, the Ummah should remember that I am the Seal of the Prophets, and this means that there will be no prophet after me. Therefore, according to your noble saying, all the claimants of prophethood who have emerged after you in history have always used this same deceit and deception and tried to promote their claim of prophethood by presenting themselves as Muslims. However, since the Ummah of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) has received complete guidance from the Holy Quran and the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in this regard, whenever anyone in history has tried to undermine this belief and claimed prophethood, he has been declared a Kafir (disbeliever) and outside the fold of Islam by the unanimous consensus of the Ummah. From the time of the early centuries, whenever the issue of religious prophethood came before any Islamic government or Islamic court, the government or the court never felt the need to investigate what arguments and evidence he presents for his prophethood. Instead, based solely on his claim of prophethood, he was declared a Kafir and treated as such. Whether it was Salima Kazzab, or Aswad Ansi, or Sajah, or Talha, or Harith, or other claimants of prophethood, the Companions (Sahaba) never investigated what interpretations they make regarding the belief of the finality of prophethood before deciding on their disbelief. Rather, when their claim of prophethood was proven, then... (ANNAANZINAL AJJEMIDE) OF FANISTAN 129th August, 1974 They unanimously declared them infidels and treated them as infidels. Because the belief in the finality of Prophethood is so clear, unambiguous, incontrovertible, and collectively accepted and established that every interpretation against it falls under the same deceit and deception that the Holy Prophet warned against. Because if this type of interpretation is tolerated to any degree, then neither the belief in Tawhid (Oneness of God) can remain safe, nor the belief in the Hereafter, nor any other fundamental belief. If someone starts explaining the meaning of the belief in the finality of Prophethood by saying that legislative prophethood has ended, but non-legislative prophethood remains, then their statement is exactly like someone saying that according to the belief in Tawhid, there is only one great God, but there can be many small deities and idols, and they are all worthy of worship. If this type of interpretation is tolerated within the realm of Islam, then it would mean that Islam has no definite belief, no thought, no command, and no moral value of its own, but (God forbid) it is like a garment that anyone with the worst beliefs in the world can fit upon themselves. Therefore, according to the continuous teachings of the Quran and Sunnah, the Muslim Ummah in its official orders, judicial decisions, and collective fatwas (religious edicts) has always acted on the same principle that after the Holy Prophet, anyone who claimed prophethood, whether they were a word-professing like Musaylimah Kazzab, they and their followers were declared infidels and out of the realm of Islam without hesitation, whether they openly denied the belief in the finality of Prophethood, or like Musaylimah, they said that after you small prophets can come. Or like Sajah, they would say that the prophethood of men has ended and women can still become prophets, or like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, claiming to be non-legislative, created, and representative and follower cannot be. In the light of this principle of the Muslim Ummah, which according to the Quran, Sunnah, and consensus of the Ummah is absolutely established and not subject to discussion and interpretation. Observe the following claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. "My God is the one who sent his messenger in Qadian." (Dafa' al-Bala, third edition, Qadian, 1946, page 11) I am a Messenger and a Prophet, meaning that with respect to complete reflection, I am the mirror in which the Muhammadi image and Muhammadi prophethood are perfectly reflected." (Nuzul-ul-Masih, page 3 (footnote), first edition, Matba Zia-ul-Islam, Qadian, 1909) I swear by the God in whose hand is my life, that He has sent me and He has named me a Prophet." (Tatimah Haqiqatul-Wahi, page 68, published in Qadian, 1934) When I have received nearly one hundred and fifty prophecies from God during this time and have seen with my own eyes that they have been fulfilled clearly, how can I deny the name of Prophet or Messenger in relation to myself? And when God Almighty Himself has given me these names, how can I reject them or fear anyone else besides Him?" (Ek Ghalati ka Izala, page 3, published in Qadian, 1901) God Almighty has made me the manifestation of all the prophets (peace be upon them) and all the names of the prophets are attributed to me. I am Adam, I am Sheth, I am Noah, I am Abraham, I am Isaac, I am Ishmael, I am Jacob, I am Joseph, I am Jesus, I am Moses, I am David, and I am the perfect manifestation of the name of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, that is, I am Muhammad and Ahmad in a figurative sense." (Haashia Haqiqatul-Wahi, page 72, published in Qadian, 1934) A few days ago, an objection was raised by an opponent against a gentleman to whom you have pledged allegiance, that he claims to be a prophet and messenger, and the reply was given merely with words of denial, whereas such a reply is not correct, as it is true that God Almighty's pure revelation that has been revealed to me contains such words as "Messenger" and "Sent One" and "Prophet." Not once, but hundreds of times. Then how can this answer be correct?" (Ek Ghalati ka Izala, page 1, written in 1902, published in Qadian, 1934) Our claim is that we are a Messenger and a Prophet." (Akhbar Badr, March 5, 1908, mentioned in Haqiqat-un-Nubuwwah, authored by Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood, Vol. 1, page 272, Annex No. 3) "Although prophets have been many, in divine knowledge I am not less than anyone." (Nuzul-ul-Masih, Page 97, First Edition, Qadian, 1980) Meaning: "Although prophets have been many, I am not less than anyone in divine knowledge." This is just a very brief example; otherwise, the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani are full of such claims. Mirza Sahib's Gradual Claims Sometimes, to mislead Muslims, the Mirzais present excerpts from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani's early period in which he absolutely declared the claim of prophethood to be disbelief. However, Mirza Sahib himself has clarified that he progressed through the ranks of Mujaddid (reformer), Muhaddith (scholar), Promised Messiah, and Mahdi, gradually reaching the position of prophethood. We are quoting the history he gave of his claims in full detail, in his own words, so that by seeing his statement in its full context, its complete meaning can be clarified. Someone had asked Mirza Sahib why there appeared to be a contradiction in his statements, as sometimes he wrote that he was a "non-prophet" and sometimes he declared himself "superior to Jesus in all glory." Answering this, Mirza Sahib writes in Haqiqatul Wahi: "Understand this carefully that this is the same kind of contradiction as when I wrote in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya that Jesus, son of Mary, would descend from heaven, but later I wrote that the coming Jesus is myself. The reason for this contradiction was that although God Almighty named me Jesus in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya and also told me that the news of your coming was given by God and His Messenger, a group of Muslims was firmly entrenched in this belief." QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION And it was also my belief that Hazrat Isa would descend from the sky, so I did not wanted to interpret God's revelation literally, but rather to interpret this revelation and keep my belief the same as the common Muslims had, and published it in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya. But after that, divine revelation descended like rain in this regard that the Messiah who was to come, is you, and with it hundreds of signs came into being, and both heaven and earth stood up to confirm me stood, and God's shining signs compelled me towards that that the Messiah who is to come in the last age is me, otherwise my belief was the same as I had written in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya. Similarly, in the beginning, it was my belief that what relation do I have to Christ, son of Mary? He is a prophet and is among God's great close ones. And if any matter appeared regarding my superiority, then I used to consider it a partial superiority, but later when God Almighty's revelation descended upon me like rain He did not let me stay on this belief and the title of Prophet was given to me explicitly, but in such a way that from one aspect I am a prophet and from one aspect I am a follower. I believe in His pure revelation in the same way as I believe in all the revelations of God that have come before me. I am God I am a follower of the Almighty's revelation. Until I learned of it, I kept saying what I said in the beginning I said in the beginning, and when I learned of it from Him, I said the opposite." Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 149, page 150, published Qadian, 1134 AH) This statement of Mirza Sahib is so clear on its meaning that it does not require any further explanation If anyone presents his statements from that time after this statement, when he 1892 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 129th August, 1974 They denied the claim of Prophethood (in their own opinion), they were not aware of being a prophet, then what else can it be called but deceit and deception? Mirza Sahib's Last Belief The truth is that Mirza Sahib's last belief, on which he died, was that he was a prophet. Therefore, in his last letter, which was published in the newspaper "Akhbar-e-Aam" on the day of his death, he wrote in clear words: "I am a prophet according to God's command, and if I deny it, I will be sinful, and in the state that God calls me a prophet, why should I deny it? I stand by it until I pass away from this world." (Akhbar-e-Aam, May 26, 1908, quoted from Haqiqat-un-Nabuwwah Mirza Mahmood, page 271 and Mubahasah Rawalpindi, page 136) This letter was written on May 23, 1908, and published in Akhbar-e-Aam on May 26, and Mirza Sahib passed away on the same day. (At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi) Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The Tale of Non-Legislative Prophethood Sometimes it is said by the Mirzais that Mirza Sahib claimed non-legislative prophethood, and non-legislative prophethood does not contradict the belief of the finality of prophethood, but like other Mirzais interpretations, both its minor and major premises are wrong. First of all, it is not correct at all that Mirza Sahib's claim was only of non-legislative prophethood. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1893 Mirza Sahib's Claim of Prophethood with Divine Law The truth is that in the era of Mirza Sahib's ever-increasing claims, a stage also came when he stepped beyond non-legislative prophethood and, in clear words, declared his revelation and prophethood to be legislative. Based on this, a sect of his followers, Zahir-ud-Din Uroopi, openly considered him a legislative prophet. In this regard, here are a few statements by Mirza Sahib. In Arba'in, page 4, he writes: "Besides this, understand what Sharia (Divine Law) is. Whoever, through their revelation, states some commands and prohibitions and establishes a law for their followers, becomes the possessor of Sharia. So, according to this definition, our opponents are also to blame because there are commands and prohibitions in my revelation as well. For example, this revelation: 'Say to the believing men that they should restrain their eyes and guard their private parts; that is purer for them.' This is recorded in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, and it contains both command and prohibition, and thirty years have passed on it. Similarly, until now, there are commands and prohibitions in my revelation. And if you say that Sharia means the Sharia that contains new commandments, then this is false. Allah Almighty says: 'Indeed, this is in the former scriptures, the scriptures of Abraham and Moses.' Meaning, the Quranic teachings are also present in the Torah. And if you say that Sharia is that in which commands and prohibitions are mentioned exhaustively, then this is also false because if the Torah or the Holy Quran had exhaustively mentioned the commandments of Sharia, then there would have been no room for interpretation." (Arba'in, page 4 and page 7, Fourth Edition, published in Rabwah) In the above statement, Mirza Sahib has, in clear words, declared his revelation to be legislative revelation. In addition to this, in "Rafa-ul-Bala," Mirza Sahib writes: "God has sent the Promised Messiah from this Ummah (community) who is far greater than that first Messiah in all his glory, and He has named this Messiah Ghulam Ahmad." (Rafa-ul-Bala, page 13, published April 1902, Qadian) 1894 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (29th August, 1974 It is obvious that Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ) (peace be upon him) was a legislative prophet, and why would a person who is superior to him in "all glory," meaning in every respect, not be a legislative prophet? Therefore, it is not correct to say in any way that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib never claimed to be a legislative prophet. Furthermore, the Mirzais practically consider Mirza Sahib to be a legislative prophet, meaning they consider every teaching and every command of his to be obligatory to follow, even if it is against the Sharia of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). For example, Mirza Sahib wrote on page 4 of Arba'een, in the footnote of page 15: "God Almighty has gradually reduced the intensity of Jihad, i.e., religious wars. At the time of Hazrat Musa (Moses), the intensity was such that even believing could not save one from being killed, and even suckling infants were killed. Then, at the time of our Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), the killing of children, the elderly, and women was forbidden, and then for some nations, instead of faith, only paying Jizya (tribute) was accepted to avoid accountability, and at the time of the Promised Messiah, the order of Jihad is completely suspended." (Arba'een Number 4, Page 15, First Edition, 1910) Whereas there is a clear and explicit command of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that "Al-Jihad Maaziyun Ila Yaumil Qiyamah," meaning Jihad will continue until the Day of Judgment. The Mirzais abandon this clear and explicit command of the Sharia of Muhammad and follow the command of Mirza Sahib. In this way, all the rulings of Khums, Fay, Jizya, and Ghanayim (spoils of war) in the Sharia of Muhammad, which are spread over hundreds of pages in the books of Hadith and Fiqh, they believe in changing all of them according to the aforementioned statement of Mirza Sahib. After this, what deficiency remains in legislative prophethood? No Distinction in Khatm-e-Nabuwwat (Finality of Prophethood) And even if it is assumed that Mirza Sahib always claimed to be a non-legislative prophet, even then we have already stated that in the belief of Khatm-e-Nabuwwat, making this distinction that this type of prophethood is finished... ...is done and such and such is left, this deceit and deception is a part of which the Two Worlds' Master warned about. The question is, in which verse of the Holy Quran or in which saying of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) is it mentioned that the belief of the finality of prophethood, which is being repeated hundreds of times by Allah and His Messenger, is only for legislative prophethood, and non-legislative prophethood is exempt from it? If the series of non-legislative prophets was to continue after you, then why didn't the eternal verses of the Holy Quran, any one of the millions of hadiths of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), or any one of the countless sayings of the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) state this, but rather it has always been clearly stated in plain words that all kinds of prophethood have been completely severed and that there will be no prophet of any kind now? See the following hadiths in particular from the hundreds of hadiths about the finality of prophethood. See: (1) "Indeed, Messenger-ship and Prophethood have been cut off, so there will be no Messenger after me, nor a Prophet." (Narrated by Tirmidhi (He said it is Sahih)) "Indeed, Messenger-ship and Prophethood have been cut off. So there will be no Messenger after me, nor a Prophet." Here, firstly, the attribute of Prophethood and Messenger-ship itself has been completely cut off with the Prophet and the Messenger. Secondly, by using the two words Messenger and Prophet, both have been distinguished separately, and it is an established fact that wherever these two words are together, Messenger means one who brings a new Sharia, and Prophet means one who is a follower of the old Sharia. Therefore, this hadith explicitly and permanently declares both "legislative and non-legislative" types of prophethood to be cut off forever. (2) In the last moments of his life, the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said something as a will, in which, according to the narration of Ibn Abbas, these words were also included: "O people! Nothing remains of the glad tidings of Prophethood except good dreams." (Narrated by Muslim, Nasai, and others) (3) Hazrat Abu Huraira narrates that the Holy Prophet ﷺ said: The Israelites used to be governed by prophets. Whenever a prophet died, another prophet would succeed him, but there will be no prophet after me; rather, there will be caliphs, and they will be many. The Companions asked, "What do you command us regarding the caliphs?" He said, "Give allegiance to them one after the other and give them their due rights." (Sahih Bukhari, Page 211, Volume 1) The prophets of Israel mentioned in this hadith did not bring any new law; rather, they followed the law of Moses, so they were non-legislative prophets. In the hadith, the Holy Prophet has stated that there will be no such non-legislative prophets in my ummah either. Furthermore, by saying "There will be no prophet after me," he mentioned even the caliphs who would come after him, but there was no mention of any non-legislative or metaphorical prophet. It is strange that, according to the Mirza'i belief, a great prophet was to come into the world who would be superior to all the prophets of Israel. In him (God forbid) all the Muhammadan perfections were to be gathered again, and all those who denied him were to be infidels, misguided, wretched, and the target of divine punishment. Despite this, Allah and His Messenger not only said that all those who claim prophethood after him would be liars and that no prophet could be born after him, but also mentioned the caliphs after him, but did not give any indication of such a great prophet. What else does this mean except that Allah and His Messenger ﷺ (God forbid) deliberately plunged their servants into a misleading deception forever so that they would eliminate every kind of power absolutely. Understand and continue to deny the coming non-legislative prophet, becoming infidels, misguided, and deserving of punishment? Can anyone even imagine such a thing while remaining within the fold of Islam? Even a beginner in Arabic grammar knows that according to the rules of the Arabic language, the phrase "La Nabiyya Ba'di" (there will be no prophet after me) is just like "La ilaha illa Allah" (there is no god but Allah). Therefore, if the former phrase can accommodate a minor, non-legislative, or dependent prophet, then why can't someone say that the latter phrase can accommodate minor gods whose divinity (God forbid) is a reflection or manifestation of Allah Almighty, and who are not independent gods? Every virtuous person knows that most polytheistic nations in the world consider only Allah Almighty to be the independent God, and their polytheism is only based on the fact that they also believe in certain deities and gods along with Allah Almighty, whose divinity is not independent. Can it be said about them that they believe in "La ilaha illa Allah"? If the first tenet of Islam, the belief in Tawhid (Oneness of God), cannot remain intact with the belief in indirect gods, then how can the second tenet of Islam, the belief in the finality of prophethood and the second coming (of Jesus), be reconciled with the belief in indirect or non-legislative prophets after you (Prophet Muhammad)? It should also be clear here that considering the belief in the life and second coming of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) as contradictory to the belief in the finality of prophethood is a masterpiece of that false argument which has been described in the hadiths as the "rujul" (men) of the claimants of prophethood. After reading the verses and hadiths about the finality of prophethood, even a person of ordinary understanding will understand the same meaning that the entire Ummah (Muslim community) has unanimously understood, that is, no prophet can be born after you (Prophet Muhammad). No sensible person can draw the strange conclusion from this that the prophethood of the previous prophets (peace be upon them) has been taken away, or that none of the previous prophets remain. If a person is declared "Akhar-ul-Walad" or "Khatam-ul-Awlad," meaning the last son of so-and-so, can any person with sound senses understand this to mean that all the children born before this son had died? Then, in the light of which dictionary, which intellect, and which Sharia can the word "Khatam-ul-Anbiya" or "Akhar-ul-Anbiya" be interpreted to mean that all the prophets (peace be upon them) who came before you had passed away? Mirza Sahib himself, while explaining the meaning of "Khatam-ul-Awlad," writes: "It is necessary that the person upon whom this perfection and completion of the cycle of the Adamic reality ends should be Khatam-ul-Awlad, meaning that after his death, no perfect human being will emerge from the womb of any woman." (Intervention) (Tariq-ul-Quloob, page 297, Third Edition, Qadian, 1938) Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Mr. Speaker! This is a religious matter. We cannot tolerate any other talk in it. (After this, Maulvi Mufti Mahmood Sahib started reading again.) Respected Acting Chairman: Just stop. What is happening? If you want to have any discussion, go outside to the lobby and do it. Maulvi Abdul Haq: Mr. Speaker, why is there talking here? Sardar Abdul Aleem: Maulvi Sahib is getting unnecessarily angry. Maulvi Abdul Haq: What are you talking about? Respected Acting Chairman: Sardar Sahib! If you want to have a discussion, go outside and do it. Sardar Abdul Aleem: Maulana gets angrier. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 1899 Respected Acting Chairman: Order, order. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Further, it is written: "After me, no other girl or boy was born in my parents' house, and I was the last of their children." According to this explanation of Mirza Sahib himself, what else could the meaning of Khatam-un-Nabiyyin be except that after the Holy Prophet ﷺ, no prophet will emerge from a mother's womb? Therefore, by what logic of reason and wisdom can the belief in the life and descent of حضرت مسیح علیہ السلام be contrary to the verse of Khatam-un-Nabiyyin? The Tale of Zilli and Buruzi Prophethood In this way, Mirza'i gentlemen sometimes make the excuse that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani's prophethood was Zilli and Buruzi prophethood, which, being a reflection of the death of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, does not undermine the belief in the finality of prophethood. But in reality, from an Islamic point of view, the belief in Zilli and Buruzi prophethood is far more serious, dangerous, and heretical than independent prophethood, the reasons for which are as follows: (1) Even a junior student of comparative religion knows that the concept of "Zill and Buruz" is a purely Hindu concept, and there is not even the slightest glimpse of it found anywhere in Islam. (2) According to the meaning of Zilli and Buruzi prophethood that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib himself has stated, such a prophet is superior and higher in rank than all previous prophets because he is (God forbid) the Buruz of Afzal-ul-Anbiya ﷺ, meaning (God forbid) his second birth or second form. On this basis, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has repeatedly, with extreme impudence, declared himself to be directly Sarkar-e-Do Alam ﷺ. A few statements are given below: 1900 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (29th August. 1974 Claiming to be the Holy Prophet (PBUH) And I am the perfect manifestation of the name of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), meaning I am Muhammad and Ahmad in a metaphorical sense.” (Marginalia Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 72) “I am that mirror in which the shape of Muhammad and the prophethood of Muhammad are perfectly reflected.” (Nuzul-ul-Masih, p. 48, Published Qadian 1909) “According to the verse “Wa Akharina Minhum Lamma Yalhaqu Bihim,” I am the same Prophet, the Seal of the Prophets, in a Buruzi manner. And God, thirty years ago in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, named me Muhammad and Ahmad, and declared me to be the very being of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Therefore, the Seal of the Prophets of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is not shaken by my prophethood because the shadow is not separate from its origin. And since I am Muhammad in a shadow-like way, the seal of the Seal of the Prophets is not broken because the prophethood of Muhammad remained limited to Muhammad, meaning that in any case, Muhammad is a prophet, and no one else. That is, while I am the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in a Buruzi manner, and in a Buruzi manner, all the perfections of Muhammad, along with the prophethood of Muhammad, are reflected in my mirror of obedience, then who is the separate person who claimed revelation separately?” (Aik Ghalati ka Izala, p. 10/11, Published Rabwah) Every Muslim’s heart will tremble while quoting these words, but they have been quoted so that it may be known what Mirza Sahib’s own words are for the explanation of "Shadowy" and "Buruzi prophethood," about which it is said that it does not necessarily imply a claim of independent prophethood. The question is, when Mirza Sahib, under the guise of this shadow and manifestation, (God forbid) gathered "all the perfections of Muhammad, along with the prophethood of Muhammad, into his skirt, then what prophet was left from whom there was a need to prove his superiority? Even after this, if shadowy, Buruzi prophethood is something... QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 1901 Even a low-level prophethood remains, and even then, the belief in the finality of prophethood is not broken, then it should be acknowledged that the belief in the finality of prophethood is (God forbid) such a meaningless belief that it cannot be broken even by the greatest claim of prophethood. Mirza Sahib is superior to the previous prophets. The Mirza'i themselves have admitted in their writings that Mirza Sahib's shadow prophethood is superior to the prophethood of many of the prophets (peace be upon them) who received prophethood directly. Mirza Bashir Ahmad, M.A. Qadiani, the middle son of Mirza Sahib, writes: "And the idea that some people have that shadow or reflectional prophethood is a low-grade thing is merely a deception of the mind, which has no reality because for shadow prophethood it is necessary that a person is so immersed in the obedience of the Holy Prophet ﷺ that he reaches the level of "I became you, and you became me." In such a situation, he will find the Holy Prophet or all his perfections descending within him in whose color, even to the extent that the proximity between the two will increase so much that the mantle of the Holy Prophet's prophethood will also be placed upon him, only then will he be called a shadow prophet. So when the requirement of a shadow is to be a complete image of its original, and all the prophets agree on this, then those ignorant people who consider the creative resurrection of the Promised Messiah to be a low-grade power or interpret its meaning as incomplete prophethood should come to their senses and worry about their Islam because they have attacked the glory of that prophethood which is the crown of all prophethood. I cannot understand why people stumble over the prophethood of the Promised Messiah and why some people consider his prophethood to be incomplete because I see that he was a complete prophet because he was a reflection of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, and the foundation of this complete prophethood is very high. It is obvious that in earlier times, it was not necessary for the prophets to possess all the perfections that were placed in the Holy Prophet ﷺ, but rather each prophet was given perfections according to his abilities and work. 1902 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 129th August, 1974 "Some had a lot, some had less. But the Promised Messiah only received prophethood when he had attained all the perfections of the Muhammadan government and became worthy of being called a shadow prophet. Therefore, the excellence of being a shadow (zilli) did not make the Promised Messiah's step go backward, but moved it forward, and moved it so far forward that it placed him side by side with the Holy Prophet." (Kalimat-ul-Fasl, Review of Religions, 14, No. 3, p. 113, March-April 1915) Further, after declaring Mirza Sahib superior to Hazrat Isa, Hazrat Daud, Hazrat Suleiman, and even Hazrat Musa (peace be upon them), he writes: "So the shadow (zilli) prophethood of the Promised Messiah is no inferior matter, but by God, this prophethood, while elevating the master's status, has also placed the servant at a position that the prophets of the Children of Israel could not reach. Blessed is he who understands this point and saves himself from falling into the pit of destruction." (Reference above, p. 114). And Mirza Sahib's other son and his second successor, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood, writes: "So shadow and reflective prophethood are not an inferior kind of salvation, because if that were the case, how could the Promised Messiah say in comparison to an Israelite prophet that: Leave the mention of Ibn-e-Maryam, Ghulam Ahmad is better than him." (Al-Qaul-ul-Fasl, p. 16, printed by Zia-ul-Islam, Qadian, 1915) The reality of believing in Khatam-un-Nabiyyin: This is the complete reality of this shadow and reflective prophethood in the words of the Mirza'i gentlemen themselves, about which it is said that it does not hinder the belief in the finality of prophethood. Anyone who has even a small amount of intellect, understanding, honesty, and fairness, what other conclusion can they draw after reading the above writings other than that "no belief is more contrary to and in conflict with the finality of prophethood than the belief in shadow and reflective prophethood." The meaning of the finality of prophethood is that after the ruler of both worlds (peace and blessings be upon him) No prophet can come, and the belief of Ali being a reflection of prophethood states that not only can a prophet come after him, but such a prophet can come who, from Adam (peace be upon him) to Jesus (peace be upon him), possesses the highest qualities, superior to all prophets, who possesses "all the perfections" of the best of prophets (peace and blessings be upon him), and who leaves behind the ranks of perfection of all the prophets and stands side by side with the leader of both worlds. Even superior to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Rather, this belief has full room for a person to declare Mirza Sahib, God forbid, even superior to the leader of both worlds (peace and blessings be upon him). Because when Mirza Sahib is considered the second coming of the Prophet himself, then his second coming can be superior to his first coming. This is not just speculation, but a poem by Qazi Noor-ud-Din Akmal, the former editor of the Mirza'i magazine "Review of Religions," was published in the newspaper "Badr" on October 25, 1906, two verses of which are: Our Imam, dear in this world, Ghulam Ahmad is the refuge in the Abode of Peace. Ghulam Ahmad is the throne of the Greatest Lord, his abode is as if in the placeless. Muhammad has descended into our midst, surpassing his former glory. Whoever wants to see Muhammad, Akmal, should look at Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian. (Newspaper Badr, October 25, 1906, Volume 2, Number 43, Page 14) This is not merely "the ramblings of disciples," but rather these verses were recited to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib himself, presented to him in writing, and Mirza Sahib praised them with "JazakAllah" (May Allah reward you). As Qazi Akmal Sahib writes in "Al-Fazl" on August 22, 1944: "It is a part of that poem which was recited in the presence of the Promised Messiah (peace be upon him) and presented in the form of a beautifully written piece, and he took it inside with him." At that time, no one objected to this poem, even though Maulvi Muhammad Ali Sahib (Amir Jamaat Lahore) and his aides were present, and as far as memory serves, it can be said with certainty that they were listening, and if they deny it due to the passage of time, then this poem was printed and published in "Badr." At that time, "Badr's" position was the same, or even greater, than what "Al-Fazl" has now. These people had intimate and informal relations with Hazrat Mufti Muhammad Sadiq Sahib, the editor. He is alive, by the grace of God, ask him and let him say whether any of you expressed displeasure or disapproval, and after having the honor of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) hearing it and receiving the reward of "Jazak Allah Ta'ala" and taking this stanza inside himself, who had the right to object to it and prove their weakness of faith and lack of understanding?" He further writes: (Al-Fazl, Volume 32, Number 196, dated August 22, 1944, page 6, column number 1) This poem was recited after reading the Khutba Ilhamia (Inspired Sermon) during the time of Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) and was recited to him and was published as well. (As is on page 6, column 2(3)) This makes it clear that it was not merely poetic exaggeration, but a religious belief, and a necessary consequence of the belief in Zilli Buruzi (Shadowy and Manifest) Prophethood, which was derived from Mirza Sahib's Khutba Ilhamia, and Mirza Sahib himself not only confirmed it but also praised it. The passage from Khutba Ilhamia from which the poet derived this poem is as follows, Mirza Sahib writes: "Whoever denies that the advent of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is related to the sixth millennium, as it was related to the fifth millennium, then he has denied the truth and the text of the Quran, but the truth is that the spirituality of the Holy Prophet ﷺ in the late sixth millennium, that is, in these days, is stronger, more complete, and more intense than in those years. Rather, it is like the moon on the fourteenth night, so it does not need a sword or a fighting group, and that is why God Almighty has kept the centuries for the advent of the Promised Messiah "...that this count may indicate that status which possesses complete perfection above all the statuses of progress." (Khutba Ilhamia, p. 271, written in 1902, printed in Rabwah) From this, it is known that Mirza Sahib's surpassing the Holy Prophet ﷺ in a Buruzi (reflected) manner was Mirza Sahib's own belief, which he expressed in the aforementioned passage of Khutba Ilhamia. Qazi Akmal recited those verses while explaining it, and Mirza Sahib confirmed and praised them. A person can surpass the Holy Prophet ﷺ. Then the matter does not end here, but the belief of the Mirza'i gentlemen goes even further than this, that not only Mirza Sahib, but every person, while progressing in his spiritual ranks, can surpass the Holy Prophet ﷺ (God forbid). Therefore, the second Khalifa of the Mirza'is, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood, says: "It is absolutely true that every person can progress and attain the greatest rank. Even Muhammad ﷺ can be surpassed." (Al-Fadl Qadian, Vol. 10, No. 5, dated July 17, 1922, p. 8 (Title: Diary of Khalifa Masih)) From here, the reality also becomes clear regarding the claim that is sometimes made by the Mirza'i gentlemen to gain the sympathies of Muslims, that they consider the Holy Prophet ﷺ to be the Seal of the Prophets. Mirza Sahib himself writes, explaining this: "Allah Almighty has made the Holy Prophet ﷺ the possessor of the Seal, meaning He has given you the seal for bestowing perfection, which was never given to any other prophet. For this reason, your name is famous as the Seal of the Prophets, meaning..." Following you grants the perfections of prophethood, and your spiritual attention is a prophet maker, and this sacred power was not given to any other prophet." (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, p. 97 - footnote) With the aforementioned beliefs of shadow and manifestation, Mirza Sahib believes that Khatam-un-Nabiyeen means that you had such a seal of bestowing perfection that it could create prophets exactly like you, or even superior and higher than you. This blatant mockery of the Quran and Hadith, the Arabic language, and human intellect is just like someone saying that Allah Almighty being the "One God" means that in the universe, He is the only being whose sacred power is God-making and can create Gods like Himself. Even after such blasphemous jesting with the verses of the Holy Quran and the fundamental beliefs of the Ummah, if someone can remain within the fold of Islam, then no human on the face of the earth can be an infidel. The Logical Conclusion of the Claim of Prophethood Mirza Sahib's claim of prophethood has become as clear as day in the previous pages, and it is another matter that, according to Mirza Sahib's own admission, only one prophet was created from this great seal, and that was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib. He says that, "From this Ummah, I am the only specific individual in this encompassing divine revelation and unseen matters, and the amount of this abundant blessing that has not been given to any of the saints, Abdals, and Aqtab who have passed away from this Ummah before me. It is not because of this that I have been specifically chosen to receive the name of Prophet." (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, p. 391) While writing this, Mirza Sahib did not even realize that Khatam-un-Nabiyeen is a plural form, therefore, at least three prophets should have been created from this seal. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1907 In light of the Quran, Hadith, Ijma (consensus), and the history of Islam, it is clearly established that anyone who claims prophethood after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), and his followers, are infidels and outside the pale of Islam. This is not only a verdict of Islam but also of common sense. Anyone with even a superficial knowledge of the history of world religions will acknowledge that whenever someone claims prophethood, regardless of the debate of right and wrong, the people present at that time immediately divide into two groups. One group is those who confirm and believe him to be truthful, and the other group is those who do not confirm or follow him. These two groups have never been considered to belong to the same religion in the world; rather, they have always been understood as followers of different religions. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani himself, while acknowledging this fact, says: "At the time of every prophet and divinely appointed one, there are two groups: one is called Saeed (blessed), and the other is called Shaqi (wretched)." (Al-Hakam, December 28, 1900, quoted from Malfuzat-e-Ahmad, vol. 2, p. 143, published by Ahmadiyya Kitab Ghar, Qadian, 1925) Looking at the history of world religions, it becomes quite clear that these two factions divided by the claim of prophethood have never been called co-religionists, but have always remained like rival religions. Before the arrival of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), all the Israelites were of the same religion, but when Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) arrived, two large rival religions immediately emerged: one religion was that of his followers, which later came to be called Christianity or المسيحیت, and the other religion was that of those who denied him, which was called Judaism. Although Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) and his followers believed in all the previous prophets (peace be upon them), the Jews never considered them to be co-religionists. This is a reference to the verse of the Holy Quran in which two types of humans have been defined, one is Shaqi, cursed infidel and the other is Saeed i.e. Muslim, then the first type is called "Shaqi" and the second one "Saeed", the verse is "فمنهم شفي و سعيد الخ" NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [29th August, 1974 neither considered their co-religionists nor did the Christians ever insist that they be considered included among the Jews. Similarly, when the leader of both worlds, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (PBUH) arrived, he confirmed all the previous prophets (peace be upon them), including Hazrat Isa (Jesus) (peace be upon him), and believed in the Torah, Psalms, and the Bible. Despite this, neither did the Christians consider him and his followers as their co-religionists, nor did the Muslims ever try to be called and understood as Christians. Then after you, when Musaylimah al-Kadhdhāb claimed prophethood, his followers came to confront the Muslims as rivals, and the Muslims also declared them as completely separate from the Islamic Ummah, possessing an independent religion, and waged jihad against them, even though Musaylimah al-Kadhdhāb was not a denier of the prophethood of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), but the Kalima "Ashhadu anna Muhammadan Rasool Allah" was included in the Adhan (call to prayer) given here. It is mentioned in Tarikh al-Tabari that: "He used to give Adhan in the name of the Prophet (PBUH) and testified in the Adhan that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and the one who gave Adhan for him was Abdullah bin Nawahah, and the one who recited Iqama was Hujair bin Umair." (Tarikh al-Tabari, Vol. 3, p. 244) This history of world religions is a testament to the fact that those who believe in a claimant of prophethood and those who deny him cannot gather under the umbrella of one religion. Therefore, this is the hundred percent logical conclusion of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani's claim of prophethood that the party that considers him truthful and appointed by Allah cannot remain in the religion of those who deny his claims. These two To gather the parties under one religious flag is not only against the Quran, Sunnah, and consensus of the Ummah, but also tantamount to rebellion against the entire history of religion. Mr. Muhammad Ali Lahori, the Amir of the Mirza'i community of Lahore, pointed to the same fact in the 1906 Review of Religions (English). He writes: "The Ahmadiyya movement stands in the same relation to Islam in which Christianity stood to Judaism." (Quoted from "Mabadi Rawalpindi," page 240, published by Darul Fazl Qadian, and "Tabdili Aqaid," authored by Muhammad Ismail Qadiani, page 12, published by Ahmadiyya Kitab Ghar Karachi) Meaning, "The Ahmadiyya movement bears the same relation to Islam as Christianity did to Judaism." Can any human being consider Christianity and Judaism to be one religion? The Mirzais' own belief that they are a separate nation The Mirza'i gentlemen themselves acknowledge that their religion and that of seventy crore Muslims are not the same. They have openly declared this belief in their numerous speeches and writings, that all Muslims who have denied Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani in his claims are outside the pale of Islam and are infidels. In this regard, the clarifications from their religious books are as follows: Writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Sahib, in his "Khutba Ilhamia," which he claims was entirely revealed through inspiration, says: This is a written debate between both groups of Mirza'i gentlemen, which was published at the joint expense of both. Therefore, the passages quoted in it are accepted by both groups. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN The spirituality of our Prophet, the best of messengers, has manifested itself from his Ummah to reach the perfection of its appearance and the dominance of its light, as God Almighty promised in the clear book. So I am that promised manifestation, so believe and do not be among the disbelievers. And if you want, then read the saying of God Almighty: "He is the one who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to make it prevail over all religions." And in Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Mirza Sahib writes: (Khutba Ilhamia Translated by the Author, 1901, Printed, Badr, pp. 266-267) The word "Kaafir" (disbeliever) is the opposite of "Momin" (believer), and disbelief is of two kinds: (1) One is that a person denies Islam altogether and does not believe that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the Messenger of God. (2) The second is that, for example, he does not believe in the Promised Messiah and considers him a liar despite all the arguments, about whose acceptance and truthfulness God and His Messenger have emphasized, and emphasis is also found in the books of previous prophets. So, because he denies the command of God and His Messenger, he is a disbeliever. And if considered carefully, these two types of disbelief fall into the same category, because a person who, despite recognizing God and His Messenger, does not obey their command, according to the clear texts of the Quran and Hadith, does not believe in God and His Messenger either. (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, pp. 179 & 180, Written in 1906, First Edition Published in 1907) In the same book, he writes elsewhere: "It is strange that you consider the one who calls you a disbeliever and the one who does not believe to be two types of people, whereas in the eyes of God there is only one type, because the person who does not believe in me does not believe in me for the reason that he declares me a fabricator." He further writes: "Besides this, whoever does not believe in me does not believe in God and the Prophet either, because there is a prophecy of God and the Prophet regarding me." He further writes: "God has manifested more than three hundred thousand heavenly signs to bear witness to my truthfulness, and the solar and lunar eclipses occurred in Ramadan in the sky. Now, the person who does not believe in the statement of God and the Prophet and denies the Quran and deliberately rejects the signs of God Almighty and considers me a fabricator despite hundreds of signs, how can he be a believer? And if he is a believer, then I, by virtue of fabricating, am deemed a disbeliever." (Reference above, pp. 163-164) In his letter to Dr. Abdul Hakeem Khan, Mirza Sahib writes: "God Almighty has revealed to me that every person to whom my invitation has reached and who has not accepted me is not a Muslim." (2) Al-Wasiyyat, page 163) Also, in "Miyar al-Akhyar," Mirza Sahib narrates one of his revelations as follows: "Whoever does not follow you and does not enter into your allegiance and only remains your opponent is disobedient to God and the Prophet and is destined for Hell." (Advertisement "Miyar al-Akhyar," p. 8, published by Zia-ul-Islam Press, Qadian, May 25, 1900) writes in Nuzul-ul-Masih: "Those who opposed me were named Christians, Jews, and polytheists." (Nuzul-ul-Masih, First Edition, Matba Zia-ul-Islam, Qadian 119) And in his book Al-Madani, equating his denial to the denial of the Prophet of both worlds, he writes: "In reality, two people are very unfortunate, and there is no one as ill-fated as them among humans and jinn: one who does not believe in the Seal of the Prophets, and the other who does not believe in the Seal of the Caliphs (i.e., Mirza Sahib, according to his own belief)." (Al-Huda, page Dar-ul-Aman, Qadian 1902) And writes in Anjam Atham: "Now it is evident that in these revelations, it has been repeatedly stated about me that this is God's messenger, God's appointed one, God's trustee, and has come from God; believe in whatever he says, and his enemy is destined for hell." (Anjam Atham, p. 62, printed Qadian 11922) Also, it is written in Akhbar Badr, May 24, 1908, that: A person asked Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah), "What is the harm in praying behind those who do not call you an infidel?" Giving a lengthy reply to this, Mirza Sahib states in the end: "They should publish a long advertisement about these Maulvis that they are all infidels because they have declared a Muslim an infidel. Then I will consider them Muslims, provided there is no suspicion of hypocrisy in them and they do not deny the clear miracles of God, otherwise Allah…" God Almighty states: "Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire." Meaning, hypocrites will be cast into the lowest level of Hell." (Akhbar Badr, May 24, 1908, quoted from Majmua-e-Muqawate Ahmadiyya, page 307, volume 1) The Fatwas of the First Mirzaite Caliph, Hakeem Noor-ud-Din: The first Caliph of the Mirzaite community, whose Caliphate both Mirzaite groups agreed upon, states: "No person can be a true Muslim believer without faith in the Messengers. And there is no specification in this belief in the Messengers; it is general, whether that Prophet came before or comes after, whether they are in India or in any other country. Denying any divinely appointed one constitutes disbelief. Our opponents deny the appointment of Hazrat Mirza Sahib. Tell me, how is this a minor difference?" (Majmua-e-Mutamadi Ahmadiyya, page 275, volume, quoted from Akhbar Al-Hakam, volume 15, page 8, dated March 17, 1911) Also, on another occasion, he says: "The deniers of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, the Jews and Christians, believe in Allah, they believe in Allah's messengers, books, and angels. Are they disbelievers for this denial or not? They are disbelievers. If the denier of the Israelite Messiah, the Messenger, is a disbeliever, then why is the denier of the Muhammadan Messiah, the Messenger, not a disbeliever? If that Messiah of Israel was the Seal of Successors or Caliph or Follower, such that his denier is a disbeliever, then why isn't the Seal of Successors or Caliph or Follower of Muhammad ﷺ such that his denier is also a disbeliever? If that Seed was such that its denier is a disbeliever, then this Seed is in no way less." (Majmua Fatawa Ahmadiyya, page 385, volume 1 - quoted from Al-Hakam, number 19, volume 18, 1902, May 28, 1914) The Fatwas of the Second Caliph, Mirza Mahmood Ahmad: And the Second Caliph of the Mirzaite community, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Sahib, says: "The person who gives his daughter in marriage to a non-Ahmadi certainly does not understand Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah) and does not know what Ahmadiyyat is. Is there anyone so irreligious among the non-Ahmadis who would give his daughter to a Hindu or a Christian?" The girl is given away, you call those people infidels. But in this matter, they were better than you in that even being infidels, they don't give their daughter to an infidel, but you, calling yourselves Ahmadis, give it to an infidel? Do you give it for this reason that he is from your community? But from the day you became Ahmadis, your community became Ahmadiyyat. For identification and distinction, if someone asks, you can tell your caste or community. Otherwise, now your community, your lineage, your being is Ahmadi. Then, leaving the Ahmadis, why do you seek community among non-Ahmadis? It is the work of a believer that when the truth comes, he leaves falsehood." (Malaikullah by Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood, pp. 146-47, published by Al-Shirkatul Islamia Rabwah) Also, in Anwar Khilafat, he states: "It is our duty not to consider non-Ahmadis as Muslims and not to offer prayers behind them, because in our view they deny a prophet of God. This is a matter of religion; no one has a choice in this matter to do anything." (Anwar Khilafat, p. 90, published Amritsar, 1916) And in Ayeena-e-Sadaqat, it is written to such an extent that those who have not even heard the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani are also infidels. He states: "All Muslims who have not joined the Bai'at (oath of allegiance) of Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah), even if they have not heard the name of Hazrat Masih Maud, are infidels and outside the pale of Islam." (Ayeena-e-Sadaqat, p. 35, quoted from Mabadi Rawalpindi, p. 252, published Qadian) Sayings of Mirza Basheer Ahmad, M.A. And Mirza Basheer Ahmad M.A., the middle son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, writes: QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1915 "Every such person who accepts Moses but does not accept Jesus, or accepts Jesus but does not accept Muhammad, or accepts Muhammad but does not accept the Promised Messiah, is not only an infidel but a confirmed infidel and outside the pale of Islam." (Kalimatul Fasl, p. 110, included in Review of Religions, Vol. 14, pp. 3, 4, March-April 1915) In the same book, he writes elsewhere: "The claim of the Promised Messiah that he is an appointee from Allah Almighty and that Allah Almighty speaks to him is subject to two possibilities. Either, God forbid, he is a liar in his claim and merely claims it as a false accusation against Allah, in which case he is not only an infidel but a great infidel. Or, the Promised Messiah is truthful in his claim of revelation, and God truly spoke to him, in which case, undoubtedly, the disbelief will fall upon the denier, as Allah Almighty Himself has stated in this verse. So now you have the choice to either call the deniers of the Promised Messiah Muslims and issue a fatwa of disbelief against the Promised Messiah, or to believe the Promised Messiah to be truthful and consider his deniers to be infidels. It is not possible for you to consider both as Muslims, because the Holy Verse clearly states that if the claimant is not an infidel, then the denier is definitely an infidel. So, for God's sake, abandon your hypocrisy and make a decision in your heart." (Kalimatul Fasl, p. 123, included in Review of Religions, Vol. 14, March-April 1915) (At this stage, Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair, which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali)) Statements of Maulvi Mufti Mahmud Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib (Amir Jamaat Lahore) writes in the English Review of Religions: 1916 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [29th August, 1974 "The Ahmadiyya movement stands in the same relation to Islam in which Christianity stood to Judism. That is, the Ahmadiyya movement has the same relationship with Islam as Christianity had with Judaism. ( نقل از مباحثه را ولپندی مطبوعه قادیان ص 240 تبد یلی عقائد مولفہ محمد اسمعیل قادیانی صفحه 12 ) In this, Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib has declared "Ahmadiyyat" to be a separate religion from "Islam" in the same way that Christianity is a completely separate religion from Judaism. Also, in Review of Religions, Volume 5, page 318, he writes: "Alas for those Muslims who, blinded by their opposition to Hazrat Mirza Sahib, are repeating the same objections that Christians make against the Holy Prophet ﷺ. In exactly the same way that Christians, blinded by their opposition to the Holy Prophet ﷺ, are strengthening and repeating those objections that Jews make against حضرت عیسے. This is one great distinguishing mark of a true prophet, that whatever objection is made against him will fall upon all the prophets, with the result that whoever rejects such a مامور من اللہ is as if rejecting the entire سلسلہ نبوت". (Transferred from Tabdeeli Aqaid, authored by Muhammad Ismail Sahib Qadiani, page 42) Here it should be clarified that in the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib or his followers, the word "Muslim" has been used here and there for his opponents in passing. Explaining the reality of this, Malik Muhammad Abdullah Sahib Qadiani writes in an article in Review of Religions: "You have written 'Muslim' to your deniers because of their apparent name, because when a name becomes famous due to common usage, then even if the reality is not present in it, it is called by the same name." QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1917 Distinctive Issues of Ahmadiyyat - Mentioned in Review of Religions (1941, Volume 40, Number 12, Page 38) Practical Disconnection from Muslims Based on the aforementioned beliefs, the Mirza'i gentlemen have declared themselves a separate community, and as mentioned earlier, this behavior is a logical consequence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claims and writings. Consequently, they have completely forbidden praying behind Muslims, establishing marital relations with them, and offering funeral prayers for them. Praying Behind a Non-Ahmadi Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote: "Those who engage in takfir (declaring someone an infidel) and choose the path of denial are a doomed people, therefore, they are not worthy of anyone from my community praying behind them. Can the living pray behind the dead? So remember that as God has informed me, it is forbidden for you, absolutely forbidden, to pray behind any denier, liar, or doubter; rather, your Imam should be from among yourselves. One aspect of the Hadith of Bukhari refers to this: 'Your Imam will be from among you,' meaning when the Messiah descends, you will have to completely abandon the other sects who claim Islam, and your Imam will be from among you. So, do as such. Do you want God's blame to be upon your head and your deeds to be in vain?" Marriage with Non-Ahmadis (Tohfa Golrawia, Page 28, Footnote by the Author, 1902 Edition, New Print Rabwah) Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood (Second Khalifa of Qadiani Gentlemen) writes: "The Promised Messiah has expressed strong displeasure with the Ahmadi who gives his daughter to a non-Ahmadi. A person repeatedly asked him and presented various kinds of compulsions, but you..." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 29, 1974 He told him to keep the girl, but not to give her to non-Ahmadis. After his death, he gave the girl to non-Ahmadis, so Hazrat Khalifatul Awal removed him from the imamate and expelled him from the community, and did not accept his repentance in the six years of his caliphate, even though he repented again and again. Now, seeing his true repentance, I have accepted it." (Anwar Khilafat by Mirza Bashiruddin, p. 4, printed Amritsar 1916) He further writes: I am not in the habit of expelling anyone from the community, but if anyone acts against this order, I will expel him from the community." (Reference above) However, taking girls from Muslims has been declared permissible in the Qadiani religion. Explaining the reason for this, Mirza Bashir Ahmad, the second son of Mirza Ahmad Sahib, writes that: If you say that we are allowed to take their girls, then I say we are allowed to take Christian girls as well. (Kalimatul Fasl, p. 169, as mentioned in Review of Religions, vol. 14, no. 4) Still allowed." Funeral Prayers for Non-Ahmadis Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood writes: Now another question remains, that non-Ahmadis have denied Hazrat Masih Maud, so their funeral prayers should not be offered. But if a young child of a non-Ahmadi dies, then why shouldn't his funeral prayer be offered? He is not a denier of the Promised Messiah. I ask the one who asks this question that if this is true, then why are the funeral prayers of Hindu and Christian children not offered? offered? And how many people are there who offer their funeral prayers? The real thing is that the parents ...has the same religion. The Sharia declares the child to have the same religion, so a non-Ahmadi's child is also a non-Ahmadi. Therefore, his funeral prayer should not be offered." (Anwar Khilafat, p. 93 - Printed in Amritsar, 1916) Therefore, in compliance with his religion and the Khalifa's order, Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib, former Foreign Minister of Pakistan, did not participate in the funeral prayer of Quaid-e-Azam. Furthermore, he stated the reason for this before the Inquiry Commission as follows: "The Imam of the funeral prayer, Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Usmani, had declared Ahmadis as infidels, apostates, and liable to be killed, so I could not decide to participate in the prayer led by Maulana." (Report of the Court of Inquiry, Punjab, p. 212) But outside the court, when he was asked why he did not offer the funeral prayer of Quaid-e-Azam, he gave this answer: "Consider me an infidel minister of a Muslim government, or an infidel servant of a Muslim government." (Zamindar Lahore, February 8, 1950) When this incident came to light in the newspapers, this was the reply given by Jamaat Rabwah: "An objection is raised against Mr. Chaudhry Muhammad Zafarullah Khan Sahib that he did not offer the funeral prayer of Quaid-e-Azam. The whole world knows that Quaid-e-Azam was not an Ahmadi, therefore, it is not objectionable for any member of the Ahmadiyya community not to offer his funeral prayer." (Tract No. 22 entitled "A Sample of the Honesty of Ahrari Ulema, A Shameful Slander," Published by Nazrat Dawat-o-Tableegh Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya Rabwah, District Jhang) And the Qadiani newspaper "Al-Fadl" responded as follows: "Is it not a fact that Abu Talib was also a great benefactor of Muslims like Quaid-e-Azam, but neither did the Muslims offer his funeral prayer, nor did the Messenger of God." (Al-Fadl, October 12, 1952) Some people express surprise at this behavior of Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Sahib, but the reality is that there is no reason to be surprised in this. The religion he adopted, this was its necessary requirement. Their religion, their faith, their community, their beliefs, their thoughts, everything is from Muslims not only different but completely opposite to them, in such a situation why would they offer the funeral prayer of Quaid-e-Azam? The demand to declare themselves a separate minority From the above explanations, it becomes clear as two and two make four that the Mirza'i religion is a completely separate religion from Muslims, which has nothing to do with the Muslim Ummah, and this position is accepted by the Mirzais themselves that their and the Muslims' religion is not the same and they are separate from all schools of thought of Muslims as an independent community. Therefore, in undivided India, they had demanded to be declared politically as a separate minority from the Muslims. Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood says: I sent word through my representative to a senior responsible British officer that like Parsis and Christians, our rights should also be recognized, upon which the officer said that they are a minority and you are a religious sect, upon which I said that Parsi and Christians are also a religious sect. Just as their rights have been defined separately, so should ours. You present one Parsi, I will present two Ahmadi in comparison. (Statement of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood, mentioned in Al Fazl, November 13, 1946) After this, can any fair-minded person have any doubt about the reasonableness of the demand that the Mirza'i community be declared a non-Muslim minority at the government level? A Necessary Warning Regarding Mirza'i Statements Here, it is necessary to draw attention to another important fact, and that is that the ninety-year behavior of the Mirza'i gentlemen shows that they sometimes do not hesitate to make outright false statements for the sake of their communal interests. Their clear and unambiguous writings have been presented before, in which they openly declared Muslims as infidels. And more writings can be presented than those presented before, but despite countless times of these explicit announcements in their speeches and writings, in response to a question from the Munir Inquiry Commission, both of these groups stated that they do not consider non-Ahmadis to be infidels. This statement of theirs was so contradictory to their true beliefs and previous writings that even the judges of the Munir Inquiry Commission could not believe it to be true. Therefore, they write in their report: On the issue of whether Ahmadis consider other Muslims to be infidels who are outside the fold of Islam? The Ahmadis have stated before us that such people are not infidels, and the word "kufr" that has been used in Ahmadi literature for such persons is intended to mean hidden disbelief or denial; it has never been intended that such persons are outside the fold of Islam, but we have seen countless previous announcements of the Ahmadis on this subject, and in our opinion... ...can be interpreted as nothing other than that those who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are outside the fold of Islam." (Report of the Court of Inquiry, Punjab, Urdu 212, 1954) Therefore, when the inquiry was called, the previous writings in which Muslims were openly called infidels started being published again, because it was just a temporary trick that had nothing to do with the real belief. The same is true for believing the Holy Prophet Muhammad ﷺ to be the last prophet, that there is a heap of such explicit writings by the Mirza'i leaders in which they have openly declared their belief that the arrival of prophets has not stopped after the Holy Prophet ﷺ, but prophets can still be born after him, for example, their second Caliph Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud wrote: "Even if a sword is placed on both sides of my neck and I am told to say that no prophet will come after the Holy Prophet ﷺ, I will say that you are a liar, you are a deceiver, prophets can come after him and must come." (Anwar Khilafat, p. 65, published Amritsar, 1916) But recently, when the following words were also proposed in the oath of the President and Prime Minister in the Constitution of Pakistan: "I believe in the Holy Prophet ﷺ being the last prophet and that no prophet can come after him," the current Caliph of the Qadianis, Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, declared that: "I have pondered a lot on the words of this oath, and I have finally come to the conclusion that there is no obstacle in the way of an Ahmadi taking this oath." (Al-Fazl Rabwah, May 13, 1973, Issue 62/27 No. 106, pp. 4, 5) Please note that what made a person a liar and a deceiver in the eyes of the second Caliph, and what was not permissible to confess even amidst swords, became permissible for his Caliph to confess when the office of presidency and prime ministership depended on it. Therefore, to reach the truth about the Mirza'i gentlemen, those statements will always be misleading which they make on the occasion of any calamity. To understand their true reality, it is necessary to study their original religious writings and their ninety-year course of action, or they should openly repent of all their former beliefs, writings, and statements and openly announce their disavowal of all of them and provide practical proof that they have no connection with following Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, or they should bravely accept those beliefs and statements and be satisfied with the position that is proved in their light. Any third way adopted other than this will be merely a tactic for the sake of expediency which no responsible institution or seeker of truth should be deceived by. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: My request is that you adjourn it now and take it tomorrow. Mr. Chairman: Let's have a five-minute break, it will run until ten o'clock. We have reached page 41, it would be good if we reach 60. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: We had been there since morning. It has been fourteen or fifteen hours. Now, will it end in just one sitting tomorrow or will it run at eight o'clock? Several members: Yes, let it run. Mr. Chairman: As far as I am concerned, do it at five in the morning, offer prayers here. The House Committee is adjourned to meet tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. sharp. The Special Committee of the Whole House adjourned to meet at nine o'clock in the morning, on Friday, the 30th of August, 1974. PCPPI-1102(10) N.A.-21-04-2011-450. THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Friday, the 30th August, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS 1. Qadiani Issue - General Discussion - Continued) Pages 1928-2385 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Friday, the 30th August, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Friday, August 30, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at nine o'clock in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. (RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN) 1927 1928 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Mr. Chairman Maulvi Mufti Mahmood! Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The reality of the Lahore group! The Lahore group of Mirzais, whose founder was Muhammad Ali Lahori, often claims that they do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be a prophet, but rather the Promised Messiah, Mahdi, and consider him a reformer. Therefore, the accusation of violating the finality of prophethood should not be considered disbelief (kufr) on them. A brief answer to this is that a person whose false claim of prophethood has been proven, not only to consider him a prophet but to believe him to be truthful and to consider him worthy of obedience is open disbelief (kufr). Let alone considering him the Promised Messiah, Mahdi, and Reformer and Muhaddith (recipient of divine inspiration). As has been stated earlier, a person's claim of prophethood, which creates two rival religions, consists of those who believe in him and those who consider him a liar. The group that declares him to be truthful follows one religion, and the group that rejects him joins another religion. Therefore, when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani's claim to prophethood has been proven as clear as day, then all the groups that consider him their leader will be included in the same religion, whether they call him a prophet, or the Promised Messiah, the Promised Mahdi and Mujaddid. But along with this brief answer, it would be appropriate to clarify the full reality of the Lahore group. The fact is that, in terms of belief and religion, there is practically no difference between these two groups. Rather, during the life of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and after the death of his first successor, Hakim Noor-ud-Din, the Qadian group and the Lahore group were not separate groups. During this entire period, all the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, whether it was Mirza Bashir-ud-Din or Muhammad Ali Lahori, with complete freedom. QADIAN) ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 1929 Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib along with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani continued to call and consider him a "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasool" (Messenger). For a long time, he was the editor of the famous Qadiani magazine "Review of Religions" and during this time In numerous articles, he not only used the words "Nabi" and "Rasool" for Mirza Sahib, Rather, he believed in all the requirements of prophethood and messengership for him; such articles of his If collected, can make a whole book. However, here are just a few of his as examples. writings are presented: On 13 April 1904, a statement was given in the court of the District Magistrate of Gurdaspur, which The purpose was to prove that whoever denies Mirza Sahib is a liar. Therefore, If Mirza Sahib has written "liar" to such a person, then he has said correctly. In this statement, he writes: "The denier of the claimant of prophethood is a liar. Mirza Sahib, the accused is the claimant of prophethood, his His followers consider him true in his claim and his enemies false." (Statement on oath before the District Magistrate Gurdaspur dated 13 April 1904, quoted from the monthly Furqan Qadian, Volume 1, Number 1, Month of January 1943, page 15) After the Holy Prophet (PBUH), God Almighty closed all the doors of prophethood and messengership. closed. But for his perfect followers who are colored in his color. Having gained light from his perfect morals, this door for them is not closed. (Review of Religions, Vol. 2, p. 186, as quoted in "Change of Beliefs" by Muhammad Ismail Qadiani, p. 22, published by Ahmadiyya Kitab Ghar, Qadian) "The person whom Allah Almighty has appointed and made a prophet to reform the world in this age He is not fond of fame, but for a long time, until Allah Almighty 1930 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 did not order them to take the oath of allegiance from the people. You had nothing to do with anyone and did not come out of seclusion for years, this is the old tradition of the prophets has been going on" (Review Volume 5, pages 131, 132, as above page 37) Whatever meaning the opponent may make But we stand by it that God can create a prophet. He can make a صدیق (truthful), and can bestow the status of a martyr and a righteous person, but there should be someone who asks. The one in whose hand we gave our hand (i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib) was truthful was God's chosen and holy messenger. (Speech by Muhammad Ali Sahib in Ahmadiyya Buildings, mentioned in Al-Hakam, July 18, 1908, quoted from monthly Furqan Qadian, January 1942, Volume No. 1, p. 11) These quotations are presented merely as a sample from the writings of Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib, the founder of the Lahore group But this was not just his belief. Rather, the entire Lahore group has, in a sworn statement, acknowledged these same beliefs. Sworn Statement of the Lahori Group Paigham-e-Sulah is a famous newspaper of the Lahore group. In its October 16, 1913, issue This sworn statement was published on behalf of the entire group: It has come to know that some friends have been misled into believing that the people associated with this newspaper or any of them, undervalue or look with contempt upon the high ranks of Sayyiduna wa Maulana Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, the Promised Messiah, the Awaited Mahdi, peace be upon him. All of us Ahmadis, who in one way or another QADIANIS' DISCUSSION "In truth, we are associated with the newspaper Paigham-e-Sulah. Knowing that God Almighty is aware of the secrets of hearts, and considering Him as ever-present and watching, we openly declare that spreading such misunderstandings about us is pure slander. We consider Hazrat Masih Maud and Mahdi Ma'ud as the Prophet, Messenger, and Savior of this era." (Paigham-e-Sulah, October 16, 1913, p. 2, as quoted in Monthly Furqan, Qadian, January 1942, pp. 13-14) After this sworn statement, every veil is lifted from the true beliefs of the Lahore Jamaat. But when Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud refuses to pledge allegiance and acknowledge him as the Khalifa, and establishes his own separate Jamaat in Lahore. Mirza Bashiruddin was appointed as the Second Khalifa on March 14, 1914, and on March 22, 1914, the first gathering of the Lahore Jamaat, which disagreed with this decision, took place. The resolution passed in this gathering was as follows: "We consider the election of Sahibzada Sahib (Mirza Bashiruddin) to be permissible to the extent that he takes the pledge in the name of Ahmad from non-Ahmadis, i.e., to induct them into his Ahmadiyya movement. However, we do not consider it necessary to take the pledge from Ahmadis again. In this capacity, we are ready to accept him as Amir, but there will be no need for allegiance, nor will the Amir be authorized to interfere in any way with the rights and powers that Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) has given to Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya and declared it as his successor." (Supplement to Paigham-e-Sulah, March 24, 1914, as quoted in Furqan Qadian, January 1942, p. 7) This resolution makes it clear that at that time, the Lahore Jamaat had no objection to the beliefs of the Qadian Jamaat, nor did they consider Mirza Bashiruddin unqualified for the Khilafat. The dispute was over this matter: ...was that all powers be given to Anjuman Ahmadiyya and not to the Khalifa, but when Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood did not approve of this proposal, Muhammad Ali Lahori wrote: "The institution of Khilafat is only for a few days, so how can it be accepted that if one person is sworn allegiance to, then continue to do so in the future?" (Paigham-e-Sulh, April 2, 1914, quoted from Furqan reference above, p. 7) This was the real difference between the Qadiani and Lahori groups, on the basis of which these two parties separated. Due to this political difference, when the Qadiani group made life difficult for the Lahori group, the Lahori group was forced to gain the sympathy of the Muslims. Therefore, when Jamaat Lahore established its separate center, partly to beautify its separation, partly out of hatred for the Qadiani Jamaat, and partly out of concern to gain the sympathy of the Muslims, this Jamaat started saying without announcing a retraction and repentance from its previous beliefs and writings that we consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad not as a prophet but as the Promised Messiah, Mahdi, and Mujaddid. There is no difference between the Qadian and Lahore groups. But even if those beliefs of the Lahore Jamaat are examined, which they announced after 1914, it becomes clear that their position is merely a verbal manipulation, and in reality, there is no fundamental difference between them and the Qadiani Jamaat. Just as they consider the inspiration of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as truthful and obligatory to follow, so do they also consider it as truthful and obligatory to follow. Just as they confirm all the blasphemies of Mirza Sahib, so do they also consider it obligatory to confirm. Just as they consider all the books of Mirza Sahib as an inspired document and religious authority for themselves, so do they also consider them as a religious source. give status, just as they call Mirza Sahib's opponents infidels, in the same way, they too believe in the infidelity of those who declare Mirza Sahib an infidel and a liar. The only difference is that the Qadiani community considers it absolutely permissible to use the word "Prophet" for Mirza Sahib, and the Lahori community considers the use of this word for Mirza Sahib permissible only in a linguistic or metaphorical sense. This reality is explained in such a way that the Lahori community distinguishes itself from the Qadiani community in two basic beliefs: (1) The use of the word "Prophet" for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. (2) Declaring non-Ahmadis as infidels. The Lahori community claims that they do not consider Mirza Sahib a prophet but only a reformer, and they declare non-Ahmadis as only transgressors instead of infidels. Now, observe the reality of these two things: The Reality of Not Accepting Prophethood Although the Lahori community declares that they do not consider Mirza Sahib a prophet but rather a reformer. But what does "reformer" mean? Exactly what the Qadiani community calls a dependent and reflective prophet. Thus, Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib writes in his book "Al-Nubuwwat fil Islam," which was written long after the separation of the Lahore community: "Of the types of prophethood, the type that is granted to a Muhaddith (a recipient of divine communication) is because of following and being annihilated in the Messenger, as it was written in Tauzee-e-Maram that it is a light of good tidings. Therefore, it is outside the limits of the seal of prophethood, and it is not only حضرت مسیح موعود who says this but..." The Hadiths have clearly established this principle by promising the Muhaddiths on the one hand and keeping the Mubashshirat on the other. As if Prophethood is ended, but a kind of Prophethood remains, and that kind of Prophethood is Mubashshirat, it is given to those who perfectly follow the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and reach the station of Fana-fi-Rasul. Now, the same principle is explained in Chashma-e-Ma'rifat, which is your (i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib's) last book. See page 324. All prophecies end with him, and his Sharia is the Seal of Sharias, but one kind of prophecy is not ended, that is, the prophecy that is obtained through his perfect following and that takes light from his lamp is not ended. Because it is Muhammadi Prophethood, that is, its shadow and is through it and is its manifestation." Now see that here too, Prophethood is said to be ended, but one kind of Prophethood is said to remain, and that is the one that is obtained through the perfect following of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and on page 182 of the same book, it is also clearly written that the Prophethood which is Zilli Prophethood or Muhammadi Prophethood is the same Prophethood of Mubashshirat. (Al-Nubuwwah fil Islam, page 15, published Lahore) Further, while explaining the statements of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and declaring them correct, he writes: "In fact, whatever he has said (i.e., whatever Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib has said), even if there is a slight change in its words, the gist of it is all the same, that is, first he said that the meaning of being the Seal is that no one can receive any grace except through his seal. Then he said that what is meant by being the Seal is that through his seal... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1935 Even a prophethood that requires being a follower can be attained. Now, the meaning of this much is that complete obedience to the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is carried out and one annihilates oneself in the love of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, then through his grace, a type of prophethood can be attained. What is that prophethood? It is made clear at the end that it is a reflectionary prophethood, which means receiving revelation through the grace of Muhammad, and it is also stated that it will remain until the Day of Judgment." (Al-Nubuwwat fil Islam by Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib, page 153) Compare these statements of Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib with the beliefs of the people of Qadian and Rabwah that have been mentioned earlier. Do you see any difference anywhere? But observe this game of words to show the difference: Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah) has adhered to the same principle in his earlier and later writings, and that principle is that the door of prophethood is closed, but a type of prophethood can be attained. We will not say that the door of prophethood is open, but rather we will say that the door of prophethood is closed, but a type of prophethood remains and will remain until the Day of Judgment. We will not say that a person can still be a prophet, but we will say that a type of prophethood can still be attained through following the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. In one place it is called "Mubashshirat" (glad tidings), in another place "Mujarradi Nubuwwat" (prophethood without law), in one place "limited," in one place "frequent communication," but whatever name is given, its great sign is that it can be attained through the complete following of a perfect human being, Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. It is attained through annihilation in the Messenger. If annihilation in the Messenger provides respite, then perhaps annihilation in Allah would lead to divinity as well. August 30, 1974 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 1936 "The prophethood of Muhammad is its beneficiary; it is the light of the Prophetic lamp; it is not anything original, but limited." (Reference above, page number 158) Isn't this, through a slight manipulation of words, precisely the same philosophy of action and manifestation that has been described earlier in the words of Mirza Sahib and the Qadiani Jamaat? If it is, and it certainly is, then what difference remains between the Qadiani Jamaat and the Lahori Jamaat in terms of reality? And this is not just the belief of Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib, but of the entire Lahori Jamaat. Therefore, in the debate that took place between the Qadiani Jamaat and the Lahori Jamaat in Rawalpindi, which both Jamaats published at their joint expense, the representative of the Lahori Jamaat explicitly stated that: "Hazrat (i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib) is a perfect shadow in the shadows of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Therefore, his wife is the 'Amir al-Mu'minin,' and this rank is also in the form of a shadow." (Debate Rawalpindi, p. 26) It was also admitted that: "Hazrat Masih Ma'ud is not a prophet, but the prophethood of the Holy Prophet is reflected in him." (Debate Rawalpindi, p. 196) These are all beliefs that the Lahori Jamaat still accepts. This makes it clear that in the matter of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's prophethood, the difference between the Qadiani Jamaat and the Lahori Jamaat is only a verbal manipulation. Although the Lahori Jamaat calls Mirza Sahib the title of Masih Ma'ud and Mujaddid, what they mean by these words is exactly what the Qadiani Jamaat means by the words "Zilli," "Buruzi," "Ghair Tashri'i," or "Umati Nabi." The only difference is that the Lahori Jamaat's position is that 1938 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 (4) It is necessary for every true prophet to bring a book. (Al-Harra fi al-Islam, p. 59) After imposing twelve such conditions for a true prophethood, he has proved that since these conditions are not found in Mirza Sahib's prophethood, therefore, the word "prophet" in the true sense cannot be correctly applied to him. Now it is obvious that in the well-known terminology of Sharia, it is neither necessary for a prophet to bring a book, nor is it necessary that his revelation must be recited in worship, nor is it obligatory for a prophet to always abrogate the previous Sharia, nor is it included in the definition of prophethood that the one who brings revelation in it should always be Gabriel (peace be upon him). Therefore, to declare true prophethood only that in which all these conditions are present is merely such a ploy through which it is easy to sometimes declare Mirza Sahib a prophet and sometimes deny his prophethood. Because by imposing these conditions, it can also be said about many prophets of the Children of Israel that they were not true prophets, because neither was a book revealed to them nor was their revelation recited, nor did they bring any new Sharia, but they were prophets. The Issue of Takfir The basis on which the Lahore group distinguishes itself from the people of Qadian is, in fact, the issue of prophethood itself, which has been clarified earlier that it is only a difference of verbal manipulation, otherwise, both are the same in terms of reality. The second issue about which the Lahore group claims that it is different from the Qadian group is the issue of Takfir, that is, the claim of the Lahoris is that they declare non-Ahmadis to be Muslims, but here too the matter is not as simple as it is stated. On this issue, Ameer Jamaat Muhammad Ali Lahori has written an independent book called "Rad-e-Takfeer Ahl-e-Qibla." After carefully reading this book, his point of view that becomes clear is that there are two types of people who do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the promised Messiah: 1. Those who do not pledge allegiance to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, but also do not call him a disbeliever or a liar. According to him, such people are undoubtedly not disbelievers but are transgressors. (Al-Ma'oona fil Islam, page 215) 2. Regarding those who call Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a disbeliever or a liar, his opinion is that they are "disbelievers." Accordingly, Muhammad Ali Sahib writes: "So, those who declare you (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) a disbeliever and those deniers who also call you a liar are included in one category, and their ruling is the same, and the ruling of other deniers is different." Further, while explaining the ruling of the first category, he writes: "Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah) has still not declared denial of him or denial of his claim as a reason for disbelief. Rather, the reason for disbelief is only that one calls him a disbeliever by calling him a fabricator. Therefore, according to the hadith that returns disbelief to the one who calls another a disbeliever, in this case, disbelief occurs." He further writes: "Since the one who calls someone a disbeliever and the one who calls someone a liar are essentially the same, meaning that both declare the claimant (Mirza Sahib) a disbeliever, therefore both themselves come under disbelief according to this hadith." (Rad-e-Takfeer Ahl-e-Qibla, written by Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib, pages 29-30, published by Anjuman Ishaat Islam, 1926) Also, Akhtar Hussain Gilani, a well-known debater of the Lahore group, writes: "Regarding those who deny (Mirza Sahib), he certainly stated that the edict of disbelief reverts to them, because those who deny him, in reality, declare him a liar and thus declare him an infidel." (Published in Qadian, 251 in Bashid Rawalpindi) It is clear from this that those who call Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani a liar in his claims, or call him an infidel, are also considered infidels by the Lahore group. The only difference is the reason for the excommunication. According to the Lahore group, those who are exempt from the edict of disbelief and are only considered sinners are only those non-Ahmadis who do not call Mirza Sahib a liar or an infidel. Now, consider how many people in the Islamic world do not deny Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib? It is obvious that all Muslims who do not believe Mirza Sahib to be a prophet or the promised Messiah deny him; therefore, they all fall under the edict of disbelief according to the Lahore group because not believing Mirza Sahib to be the promised Messiah and denying him is practically the same thing. Mirza Sahib himself writes: "The person who does not believe in me does not believe because he declares me a fabricator." (Haqiqatul Wahi, page 63, published 97) The judges in the Munir Inquiry Commission's report have also come to the same conclusion that not believing in Mirza Sahib and denying him are the same thing. Therefore, the edict that applies to those who deny him will, in fact, apply to all non-Ahmadis. Therefore, they write: "Regarding the funeral prayer, the Ahmadis have finally taken the position before us that a fatwa of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has recently become available in which he has allowed Ahmadis to participate in the funeral prayers of those Muslims GENERAL DISCUSSION 1941 who do not call Mirza Sahib a liar and infidel. But even after this, the matter remains the same, because the necessary meaning of this fatwa is that the funeral prayer of the deceased who does not believe in Mirza Sahib will not be offered. Therefore, in this respect, this fatwa confirms and endorses the current practice." (Report of the Court of Inquiry Punjab 1953, p. 212) Now consider, what difference practically remains between the Lahori and Qadiani groups with regard to the fatwa of disbelief? The Qadianis say that all Muslims are infidels because they are non-Ahmadis, and the Lahori group says that they are infidels because they call Mirza Sahib a liar. They say that they are infidels because they do not believe in Mirza Sahib. And they say that they are infidels because the fatwa of disbelief rebounds on them. Now, they should decide for themselves this internal philosophy, what is the reason for calling Muslims infidels? But from a practical point of view, what difference does it make to Muslims except that: Even after ceasing oppression, what amends did the oppressor make for the injustice? Sometimes it is said on behalf of the Lahori group that the disbelief with which we declare those who deny Mirza Sahib is not such disbelief as to exclude one from the circle of Islam, but such disbelief as is also used in the meaning of "Fisq" (wickedness). But the question is, if by disbelief they mean wickedness, then why is the use of the word disbelief not correct for those non-Ahmadis who do not call Mirza Sahib an infidel or a liar? Rather, they are also definitely wicked in the eyes of the Lahoris. (See Al-Abwah Fi Al-Islam, p. 215, Second Edition, and Mabadih Rawalpindi, p. 247) 1942 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 Reasons for the Disbelief of the Lahori Group From the above explanations, it becomes clear that there is no practical difference between the Qadiani group and the Lahori group in terms of fundamental beliefs. The difference, if any, is in words, terms, and philosophical interpretations, and everyone familiar with their history knows that this difference was created by the Lahori group out of necessity and expediency. That is why no trace of it is found before the 1914 Khilafat dispute. Now, the reasons for their disbelief are clearly stated below: 1. According to the Quran, Hadith, and the consensus of the Ummah, in the light of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's beliefs and personal circumstances, it is absolutely certain that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is not the Messiah who was promised near the Day of Judgment. And believing him to be the Promised Messiah is a denial of the Holy Quran, the continuous Hadith, and the consensus of the Ummah. Since the Lahori Mirzais consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be the Promised Messiah, they are disbelievers and outside the circle of Islam in the same way as the Qadiani Mirzais. 2. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani's claim of prophethood has been definitively and certainly proven. Therefore, one who considers him his religious leader instead of calling him a disbeliever cannot be a Muslim. 3. As has been mentioned before, despite hundreds of fabrications by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, the Lahori group believes that (God forbid) he was a manifestation of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and that the prophethood of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) was reflected in him, and in this respect, it is correct to call him a prophet. This belief cannot fit into the circle of Islam in any way. 4. In addition to the claim of prophethood, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani's writings are full of countless blasphemies (some details of which are coming up). The Lahori group confirms all these blasphemies by considering all the writings of Mirza Sahib to be authentic and worthy of obedience. Muhammad Ali Lahori QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1943 The author writes: "And the denial of the writings of the Promised Messiah is, in fact, a denial of the Promised Messiah himself in a hidden way." (An-Nubuwwat fil Islam, Page, Second Edition, Lahore) It is also important to clarify here that the meaning of "Mujaddid" (reformer) in Islam is only that when aversion to the teachings of Islam becomes common, then a servant of Allah Almighty once again draws people's attention to Islamic teachings. These reformers of religion have no legal status, nor is any of their words considered a Sharia argument, nor do they claim to be reformers, nor do they invite people to necessarily accept them as reformers and pledge allegiance to them. Rather, it is not even necessary for people to recognize them as reformers. Therefore, there has been disagreement in the names of the jurists in the fourteen hundred year history. Similarly, if a person does not accept them as a reformer, then he is not a sinner according to Sharia, nor do they present their reformative achievements on the basis of inspiration, nor is the verification of their inspiration obligatory according to Sharia. In stark contrast, the Lahore جماعت (group) believes in all these things for Mirza Sahib; therefore, its claim that "we only consider Mirza Sahib as a reformer" is nothing but a fallacy. 1944 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Glimpses of Mirza'i Prophethood At a Glance We stated in our resolution that: Since his false claim of being a prophet Attempts to deny many Quranic verses Were treachery against the major commandments of Islam. Its explanation is presented in the following pages. 1945 QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION More blasphemies and impieties of the Mirzais In addition to the clear violation of the belief in the finality of Prophethood, Mirza Sahib's writings are filled with many blasphemies. It is difficult to mention all the blasphemies here, but a few examples are presented as a sample. About Allah Almighty Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib had declared himself as a manifestation of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). In addition, he also declared himself to be a manifestation of God in many places. Therefore, in the self-made revelations of March 15, 1906, one revelation was this: "Anta Minni Bimanazilati Buruzi" "That is, you are to me in the rank of my manifestation." (Review of Religions, Vol. 5, No. 5, April 1906, p. 22) Also, while describing his revelations in Anjam Atham, he wrote: "Anta Minni Bimanazilati Tauhidi Wa Tafridi" You are to me as my Oneness and Uniqueness. (Arbaeen No. 5, p. 27, Anjam Atham, p. 28, published Qadian 1897) He also writes: "I saw in my vision that I am God myself and I believed that I am the same." He further says: (Kitab-ul-Bariyah, p. 78, second edition, Qadian 1932, Aina Kamalat Islam, p. 564, new edition) "And Daniel the Prophet has named me Michael in his book, and the literal meaning in Hebrew Michael means: Like God. This is as if in accordance with the revelation that is in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya. Anta Minni Bimanazilati Tauhidi Wa Tafridi." (Footnote of Arbaeen No. 3, page 30, Mabood Qadian 1900) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi.)] 1947 Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: (10) Mirza attributed the special honor of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), namely the Ascension (Meraj), to himself, writing that it was said about him that: "Glory to Him Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque." (See Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 76) (11) Referring to an incident of this Ascension (Meraj), the Holy Quran states that: "Then he approached, and came closer, and was at a distance of two bows or even closer." (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 76) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has attributed this verse to himself as well. (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 72) (12) The Holy Quran states that Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ) (peace be upon him) gave glad tidings to his people of the arrival of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), saying: "And giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, with extreme audacity and impudence, claimed that this verse prophesied his coming and that Ahmad refers to him. (See Izala-e-Auham, first edition, p. 273, and second edition, p. 1175, Matba Kashi Ram Police Lahore, 1308 AH) Therefore, the Mirzais believe that Ahmad in this verse refers to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad instead of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) (God forbid, God forbid). The second Khalifa of the Qadianis, Mirza 1948 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug. 1 Bashiruddin Mahmood gave a separate speech on December 27, 1915, to prove this point, which was published after his revision in Anwar Khilafat. In its beginning, he says: The first issue is whether the name of Hazrat Masih Maud was Ahmad or that of Hazrat Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, and whether the verse of Surah Saff, in which a messenger with the name Ahmad will be given glad tidings, relates to Hazrat Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, or to Hazrat Masih Maud? My belief is that this verse relates to the Masih Maud and Ahmad is only him. But it is argued against it that Ahmad is the name of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and calling any other person Ahmad is an insult to him. But as far as I research, my faith increases, and I believe that the word Ahmad that has come in the Holy Quran is related to Hazrat Masih Maud, peace be upon him (i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad). (Anwar Khilafat, page 18, published in Amritsar, 1916) This shameful, provocative, heartbreaking, and impure audacity increased to the extent that a Qadiani preacher, Syed Zainul Abedin Waliullah Shah, gave a detailed speech at the Annual Gathering of Qadian in 1934 under the title "Ismuhu Ahmad," which has been published separately. In it, he not only claimed that Ahmad in the aforementioned verse refers to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad instead of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, but he also tried to prove that all the glad tidings of victory and triumph given to the Companions in Surah Saff were not for the Companions but for the Qadiani community. Therefore, addressing his community, he says: So, this last boon is such a priceless blessing that the Companions kept wishing for, but they could not attain it, and you are getting it." (Ismuhu Ahmad, p. 74, published in Qadian, 1934) Consider, was this insult to the Leader of Both Worlds, peace and blessings be upon him, and his Companions, and this heinous mockery with the verses of the Holy Quran, possible without having a name like Muslims? (Note: The verse of the Quran: "And another (blessing) that you love: help from Allah and a victory near at hand.") QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 1949 Mirzai "Revelation" Equal to the Quran Then this audacity did not end there. Rather, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also claimed that the so-called revelation that descended upon him (which also contains the highest degree of blasphemy and vulgarities) is exactly equal to the Quran. Therefore, in one of his Persian odes, he says: "What I hear from the revelation of God, By God, I consider it pure from error. Like the Quran, I know it to be free from all errors, This is my faith." (Nuzul-ul-Masih, page 9, first edition, Qadian, 1909) "That which I hear from the God, I swear by God, I consider it pure from all errors. Like the Quran, I believe it to be free from all errors, this is my faith." Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also claimed that like the Quran, his revelation has also reached the peak of miraculousness, and in support of this, he composed an entire ode of miraculousness, which has been published in his book "Ijaz-e-Ahmadi". Insulting the Prophets (peace be upon them) In addition, the entire Muslim Ummah considers believing in the prophets (peace be upon them) and respecting and honoring them as a part of faith. The ruler of both worlds, Muhammad Mustafa, was superior to all the prophets without any slightest doubt, but he never used any word about any other prophet that was not worthy of them. But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, even while standing in the lowest depths of human depravity, continued to commit such blasphemies against the dignity of the prophets (peace be upon them), observe a sample of it! 1950 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 (1) The reason for the harm that alcohol has caused to the people of Europe is that Jesus Christ used to drink alcohol, perhaps due to some illness or old habit (Kashti Loh Hashiya mein 120 Mufeed Dar Baod 1957 AD) (2) I have had diabetes for many years. I urinate fifteen times a day, and sometimes a hundred times a day. Once, a friend advised me that opium is beneficial for diabetes and that there is no harm in using it for treatment purposes. I replied that if I get into the habit of eating opium for diabetes, I am afraid that people will mock me and say that the first Messiah was a drunkard and the second is an opium addict. (3) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says in a poem: (Naseem Dawat p. 69, published Qadian 1936) Forget the mention of Ibn Maryam Ghulam Ahmad is better than him And after that, he writes: "These words are not poetic but factual, and if God's support is not greater with me than with Jesus, son of Mary, according to experience, then I am a liar." (Dafe al-Bala p. 20, 21, third edition, Qadian 1946) (42) In Izala Auham, Mirza Sahib has written a Persian poem in which he says: "I am the one who has come according to the prophecies Where is Jesus so that he can put his hand on my shoulder?" (Izala Auham, first edition p. 158 and second edition p. 956, published by Kashi Ram Press Lahore 1308 AH) QAUTAN ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 1951 Meaning! It is I who has come according to the prophecies. What authority does Jesus have that he can place his foot on my pulpit? (5) God has sent the Promised Messiah from this Ummah who is in all glory much greater than the previous Messiah, and He has named this second Messiah Ghulam Ahmad. (Waqa'i al-Bala, p. 13, printed Qadian, 1946) (6) I swear by Him in whose hand is my life that if Jesus, the son of Mary, were in my time, he could never do the work that I can do, and he could never show the signs that are being manifested through me. (Haqeeqatul Wahi, p. 38, printed Qadian, 1907) (7) The righteousness of Christ is not proven to be greater than the righteous people of his time; rather, John the Baptist has an advantage over him because he did not drink wine, and it has never been heard that a prostitute came and anointed his head with the wealth of her earnings, or touched his body with her hands or the hair of her head, or that a young woman had such intimacy as to serve him; therefore, it would be unjust if even one or two incidents of Mirza Sahib's own righteous conduct were not mentioned here. Mufti Muhammad Sadiq Sahib, a special disciple of Mirza Sahib, writes in the statement of Mirza Sahib keeping his gazes low: Inside the house of Hazrat Promised Messiah, a semi-mad woman used to live as a maid. Once, she did something that in the room where Hazrat used to sit and do his writing work, in one corner was a pitcher where water pitchers were kept. There, she took off her clothes and sat naked and started eating. Hazrat Sahib remained busy with his writing work and did not pay attention to what she was doing. (Zikr-e-Habib, authored by Mufti Muhammad Sadiq, p. 38, Qadian, 1931) Also, a young woman named Aisha used to press Mirza Sahib's feet; her husband, Ghulam Muhammad, writes: "Hazrat liked the deceased's service of pressing feet very much" (Al-Fazl, March 20, 1928, p. 8). In addition to this, the foreign women who lived in Mirza Sahib's house and were assigned to various services AFRIJI SCAN Loom cab named his daughter 'Hazura' (chaste) in the Quran but kept this name of Christ because such stories prevented him from keeping this name. (United, Repelling Calamities) (8) Also, while proving his superiority over all the prophets (peace be upon them), he writes: "I claim with certainty that I have thousands of such clear prophecies that have been fulfilled with utmost clarity, to which millions of people are witnesses. If their example is sought among the past prophets, then except for the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), their example will not be found anywhere else." (Kashti Nuh p. 3, printed in Rabwah, 1957) Insult to the dignity of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) Then, after showing his superiority over all the prophets (peace be upon them), he was not satisfied. Rather, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's impudence has tried to attack the skirt of the greatness of the ruler of both worlds, the mercy for all the worlds, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). It is written that: Listen carefully that now is not the time to manifest the glory of the name of Muhammad, that is, now there is no service of the Jalali color left, because that glory has been manifested to a proper extent. For details, see Sirat al-Mahdi by Mirza Bashir Ahmad M.A. (S) 21 J 3, 213 J 273, 3 J 3, 88 J 3, 126 J 3, 35 J 303 J 3, 259 J1) While the fatwa for the public was that it is permissible to shake hands even with an old woman. And Mufti Muhammad Sadiq Sahib writes. (Ibid. p. 6 7 J 2, published in 1927) One night around ten o'clock, I went to Tamiz, which was near the house. Hazrat Sahib said, "We also went to an event to find out what happens there?" (Zikr Habib p. 18) QADIANI ISSUE *GENERAL DISCUSSION 1953 "The rays are no longer bearable, now there is a need for the cool light of the moon and it is I, in the color of Ahmad." (Published from Arbaeen number 1, page 1900) And that passage of Khutba Ilhamia has already passed in which he, declaring you (Muhammad) to be the second coming of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), said that this new appearance is more intense and complete than the previous one. (See Takmila Khutba Ilhamia p. 272) Also, in his Qasida E'jazia (which he declared miraculous like the Quran), he said this verse: "For him, the sign of the eclipse of the illuminating moon appeared, and for me, both the moon and the sun. Now will you deny?" (A'jaz Ahmadi, published in Qadian 1902) He has said that: "Your arrow has not left its prey uncaught in this age." DISRESPECT OF THE COMPANIONS A person who can insult the prophets (peace be upon them) with such audacity, what regard can he have for the Companions? Therefore, the following statements are presented without commentary: (1) "Whoever enters my community has in fact entered the companions of the leader of the best of the messengers." (Khutba Ilhamia p. 258, published in Rabwah) (2) "I am the same Mahdi about whom Ibn Sirin was asked whether he is at the level of Hazrat Abu Bakr? So he replied, 'Abu Bakr? He is better than some prophets.'" (Advertisement Miar ul Akhyar p. 11) 1934 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 (3) "Leave the old Caliphate dispute, now take the new Caliphate, a living Ali exists among you. You forsake him and search for a dead Ali." (Malfuzat Ahmadiyya, vol. 1, p. 131) (4) "Some foolish companions, who had no share of understanding, were still unaware of this belief." (Supplement to Brahin-e-Ahmadiyya, vol. 5, p. 120, printed in Rabwah) Here, the word "foolish companion" is used for Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Abu Hurairah. Insult to the Ahl al-Bayt (People of the Household) (See Khutba Ilhamia p. 149 and Hamamate-ul-Bushra pp. 33 & 34) (1) It is the height of insolence and audacity that he writes: "Hazrat Fatima, in a state of revelation, placed my head on her thigh and showed me that I am of her." (Aik Ghalati ka Izala, footnote, p. 11) (2) "I am slain for God, but your Hussein was slain by enemies. So the difference is clear and evident." (Ejaz-e-Ahmadi, p. 81) (4) "You have forgotten the glory of God and the mosque, and your pain is only for Hussein. Do you deny it? So this is a calamity upon Islam. A heap of dung near the fragrance of musk." (5) "Every moment, I experience the light of guidance." (Ibid., p. 82) "A hundred Husseins are in my collar." (Nuzul-ul-Masih, p. 99) After insulting the Ahl al-Bayt of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), while sanctifying his own descendants with the title of Panjtan (The Holy Five), he said: 1955 QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION (6) My offspring are all your gift, each one came to be through your glad tidings. These five, who are descendants of Syeda, are the Panj Tan upon whom it is based. (Durr-e-Sameen Urdu, page 45) Insulting Islamic Symbols Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood writes: "In this era, God Almighty has declared Qadian as the 'mother' of all the world's settlements. Therefore, only that settlement will fully attain spiritual life which drinks from its breasts." (Haqeeqat-ul-Ruya, page 45) Further, he says: "The Promised Messiah has greatly emphasized this and said that those who do not come here repeatedly, I fear for their faith. So, whoever does not maintain a connection with Qadian will be cut off. Fear that none of you should be cut off. How long will this fresh milk last? Eventually, mothers' milk dries up. Has the milk dried up from the breasts of Mecca and Medina or not?" (Haqeeqat-ul-Ruya, pages 45, 46, printed in Qadian, 1336 AH) "Today is the day of the Jalsa (gathering), and our Jalsa is like Hajj. The place of Hajj is in the possession of such people who consider it permissible to kill Ahmadis. Therefore, God Almighty has appointed Qadian for this task." (Barakat-e-Khilafat, page 6, printed in Qadian, 1914) August 30, 1974 1956 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN And Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani says: "The land of Qadian is now venerable. Due to the crowd of people, it is like the land of Haram." (Roishan, p. 52) After such blatant blasphemies against the most honored personalities of Islam and Muslims, the Prophets (peace be upon them), the Companions, and the revered Ahl al-Bayt, a person like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was given titles such as Prophet, Manifestation of the Messenger of Allah, Seal of the Prophets, and Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). His followers were called Companions, and "May Allah be pleased with them" was written with their names. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's wife was declared the "Mother of the Believers." Mirza's successors were given the titles of "Caliphs" and "Siddiqeen." Qadian was called "Land of Haram" and "Mother of Cities," and their annual gathering was called Hajj. Despite all this, there is insistence that Muslims are only them, and Islam exists only in the religion of the Qadianis. O revolving sky, fie upon this picture! A few revelations of Mirza Sahib For the information and interest of the esteemed members of the Assembly, we present a few special revelations of Mirza Sahib and some important aspects of his life, so that they can assess what kind of person the Mirzais call a Prophet and Messenger. And setting aside the belief in the finality of prophethood, is there any glimpse of the sacred office of "Prophethood" visible in a man of this temperament and style! First, consider the revelations that are presented without comment. "Most surprisingly, some revelations come to me in languages with which I have no familiarity, such as English, Sanskrit, or Hebrew, etc." (Nuzul-ul-Masih, written by Mirza Sahib) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1957 Although Allah Almighty has stated in the Holy Quran: "And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his [own] people, so he could explain [the message] clearly to them." Similarly, Mirza Sahib himself has written on page 209 of "Chashma Maarfat": "It is completely unreasonable and absurd for a person's original language to be one thing and the inspiration to be in another language that he cannot even understand, because it involves an unbearable burden, and what is the benefit of such an inspiration that is beyond human understanding?" Now, observe such inspirations and revelations of Mirza Sahib. Contrary to the Holy Quran and his own decision, Mirza Sahib has received inspirations in languages that he himself cannot understand. We are listing below a few of Mirza Sahib's inspirations as examples: (1) "يلي اهلي لما سبقتنی ایلی اوس" - Translation: "O my God, O my God, why have you forsaken me?" The last sentence of this same inspiration, i.e., "ایلی اوس بہاعت سرعت در دو مشتبہ رہا اور نہ" (Aili Aus Bahat Surat Dard-e-Mushtabah Raha Aur Nah) (Al-Bushra, Vol. 1, p. 36, Collection of Inspirations of Mirza) Some of its meanings are revealed. (2) "God Almighty named me Mary in this revelation. Then, as is evident from Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, I was nurtured in the attribute of Maryam for two years and grew up in seclusion. Then, when these two years passed, the spirit of Jesus was breathed into me like Maryam, and in a metaphorical sense, I was declared pregnant. The pangs of childbirth did not take me to the date palm, and after several months, no more than ten months, I was made Jesus from Maryam. Thus, I became the son of Mary." (Kashti Noah, pp. 46-47) (3) "یریدون ان ير واطمئك" (Yaridon an Yar Watmatmk) i.e., "Babowalmi Bakhsh wants to see your menstruation or be informed of any impurity and filth, but God Almighty will show you His blessings, which will be continuous, and you do not have menstruation but have a child, such a child who is like the children of Allah." (Khutba Ilhamia, p. 133) (4) "ربنا عاج" (Rabbana Aaj) "Our Lord is Aaj." The meaning of "Aaj" has not yet been revealed. (Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, All Four Volumes, Vol. 1, p. 556) 1958 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 (5) Once in the month of March 1999, there was a great need for funds for the Langar Khana (free kitchen) due to the large number of guests and the low income in comparison. Therefore, I prayed and on March 1905, I saw in a dream that a person, who appeared to be an angel, came before me and put a lot of money in my lap. I asked him his name. He said he had no name. I said that he must have a name. He said his name was "Teechi." (Several members asked the meaning of "Teechi Teechi") Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Teechi is probably from "Teaching," meaning a teacher. (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi p. 332) Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: Maulana Sahib! Teechi means "Sach Time te aan wala" (meaning "one who comes at the right time"). This is his interpretation: "One who comes at the right time." Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Did Mirza Ji's angel lie first, or how can a prophet be true whose angel lies? (6) On February 23, 1905, in a state of Kashf (vision), when Hazrat's (holy person's) health was not well, a bottle was shown with the words "Khaksar Peppermint" written on it. (Mukashafat-e-Mirza p. 38, Tazkira p. 525) "Peppermint." (7) A special disciple of Mirza Sahib, Qazi Yar Muhammad Sahib B.O.L., Pleader, writes in his tract number 34, entitled "Islamic Sacrifice," on page 12: "As Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah) once revealed his condition, a state of Kashf came upon him in such a way that he was as if a woman, and Allah Almighty manifested the power of masculinity. A hint is enough for the discerning." (8) Then after that God said, "Mana, Naesa." Both phrases are probably Hebrew, and their meanings have not yet been revealed to this humble servant. Then after that, two phrases in English, the words of which... QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 1959 The accuracy of the speed of revelation is still unknown, and these are: I LOVE YOU I SHALL GO YOLA REG. (Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, Part II, p. 516) PARTY OF ISLAM. (9) I remember one instance when I first received the revelation in English: I LOVE YOU. I AM WITH YOU. I SHALL HELP YOU. I CAN WHAT I WILL DO. Then, after that, very forcefully, which made the body tremble, this revelation came: WE CAN WHAT WE WILL DO. And at that moment, such a tone and pronunciation were perceived as if an Englishman were standing over and speaking. Despite the fear, there was a pleasure in it that gave the soul comfort and satisfaction even before knowing the meaning. And this revelation in the English language often occurs. (Tazkira Majmua-e-Ilhamat Mirza, Part II, pp. 14/15) (10) Once, in a vision, a person was shown, and addressing me, said: "Hey, Rudra Gopal, your praise is written in the Gita." (Tazkira Majmua-e-Ilhamat Mirza, p. 390 (2)) (11) Among other revelations, I have also received this revelation about myself: "Krishna, Rudra Gopal, your glory is written in the Gita." (Tazkira, p. 391 (2)) (12) While the people of the Arya Samaj are awaiting the appearance of Krishna in these days, that Krishna is none other than me, and this claim is not only from me but God Almighty has revealed it to me repeatedly. That Krishna who was to appear in the latter days, it is you, the king of the Aryas. (Tazkira, p. 391 (2)) (13) According to Mirza Bashir-ud-Din, God Almighty named Mirza Sahib as follows, see Al-Fadl, April 1-5, 1947: Amin-ul-Mulk Jai Singh Bahadur, (Tazkira Majmua-e-Ilhamat Mirza, p. 276 (2)) 150m Aug., Who Mirza Sahib's Predictions Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib Qadiani writes: "Let it be clear to the skeptical people that there is no other criterion for judging our truthfulness or falsehood except by reading our predictions." (Aina Kamalat Islam, 288, Lahore edition) Now, we present here only two (2) predictions of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib as examples before you, for the fulfillment of which Mr. Mirza Sahib tried his utmost. He employed various tricks and even offered bribes, but they could not be fulfilled. Marriage with Muhammadi Begum Mirza Sahib had a cousin's daughter named Muhammadi Begum. The girl's father came to Mirza Sahib for some necessary work. Initially, Mirza Sahib tried to avoid the person with excuses, but when he did not budge in any way and his insistence increased, Mirza Sahib, invoking divine inspiration, made a prediction that God Almighty had inspired him that his work could be done on the condition that he marry his eldest daughter to him." (Aina Kamalat Islam, p. 230, Lahore edition) That person was full of honor. Hearing this, he went back. Afterwards, Mirza Sahib tried every means, including gentleness, strictness, threats, and inducements, but that person could not be won over in any way. Eventually, it came to the point that Mirza Sahib challenged that: 1901 SIMILAINE VISĻUSSIUN "I consider this prophecy as a criterion for my truthfulness and falsehood, and I am saying this after receiving news from God." (See Anjam Atham, page 223, Lahore edition) And he stated that: "After removing every obstacle, God Almighty will bring this girl into the marriage of this humble servant." (Aina Kamalat-e-Islam, page 31) Ultimately, despite Mirza Sahib's thousand efforts, Muhammadi Begum could not be married to him, and she was married to a man named Sultan Muhammad. On this occasion, Mirza Sahib made another prophecy: "The very prophecy, that is, the coming of this woman into the marriage of this humble servant, is an inevitable destiny that cannot be averted in any way." He expressed his revelation in these words: "I will bring this woman back after her marriage and give her to you, and My destiny will never change." (Majmua Ishtiharat, page 43, vol. 2, Rabwah edition, 1972) And on one occasion, he prayed: "And the eventual coming of Ahmad Beg's eldest daughter into the marriage of this humble servant, these prophecies are from You, so reveal them in such a way that it is a proof for the people of God. And if, O Lord! These prophecies are not from You, then destroy me with failure and humiliation." (Majmua Ishtiharat, page 116, vol. 2, Rabwah edition, 1972) But Muhammadi Begum remained in her husband's house as before, and she was not destined to marry Mirza Sahib, and Mirza Sahib died on May 26, 1908, after suffering from cholera. (Hayat Nasir, page 14) 1962 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 are: What happened after that? Mirza Bashir Ahmad M.A., the middle son of Mirza Sahib, writes: "In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Mian Abdullah Sanori told me that once Hazrat (Mirza Sahib) stayed in Jalandhar for about a month and during those days A real uncle of Muhammadi Begum tried to arrange Muhammadi Begum's marriage with Hazrat Sahib. but was not successful. This is from the days when Muhammadi Begum's Father Mirza Ahmad Baig Hoshiarpuri was alive and Muhammadi Begum was not yet married to Mirza Sultan Muhammad. was not related to. This uncle of Muhammadi Begum used to travel between Jalandhar and Hoshiarpur in a buggy (tonga) and he was also seeking some reward from Hazrat Sahib (Mirza Qadiani, author). because the knot of Muhammadi Begum's marriage was mostly in the hands of this person Therefore, Hazrat Sahib had also promised him some reward. This humble person submits that this person in this matter was ill-intentioned and only wanted to extort some money from Hazrat Sahib, because later this person and his other associates were the cause of the girl's marriage elsewhere." (Sirat-ul-Mahdi Part I, Second Edition, pp. 192-193) Whereas Mr. Mirza Sahib himself writes that: We consider such a mentor and also such a disciple to be worse than dogs and to have a very impure life. who makes predictions from his home and then tries to fulfill them with his own hands, with his own deceit, with his own fraud and make them happen." (Siraj Munir p. 23, published in Qadian) And Muhammadi Begum lived happily in the house of her husband Mirza Sultan Muhammad for almost forty years and 1963 QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Now, she passed away in Lahore on November 19, 1966, at the home of her young, promising Muslim sons. "Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un." (We belong to Allah, and to Him we shall return.) The Prophecy of Atham's Death (Weekly Al-I'tisam Lahore Publication, November 25, 1966) Mr. Mirza Sahib had a fifteen-day written debate with Abdullah Atham Padri in Amritsar. When the debate remained inconclusive, Mr. Mirza Sahib issued a prophecy on June 5, 1893, the summary of which is as follows: "The debate will be considered as one month for each day. That is, within fifteen months, the opposing party should be ready to bear the punishment in Hadiya, I should be humiliated, disgraced, a rope should be put around my neck, I should be hanged, I am ready for everything." (Jang-e-Muqaddas, pp. 184-183, Proceedings of the Debate, printed in Lahore) In short, according to Mr. Mirza Sahib's prophecy, the last day for Abdullah Atham's death was September 5, 1894. The condition of that day can be observed in the words of Mr. Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Khalifa Qadiani, the esteemed son of Mr. Mirza Sahib, who says: Mourning in Qadian "The condition of the Jamaat at the time of the prophecy about Atham is not hidden from us. I was a small child at that time, and my age was about five and a half years, but I remember that scene well when the last day of Atham's prophecy came, how much prayers were offered with anguish and distress. I have never seen the mourning of Muharram so severe sometimes. Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him) was busy in prayer on one side, and on the other side..." 1964 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Some young men (who later celebrated this act), gathered in the place where Hazrat Khalifa Awwal used to preach and where Maulvi Qutbuddin Sahib sits these days, and they started wailing like women do. Their cries could be heard from hundreds of yards away, and every one of them was praying, "O God! Atham should die, O God! Atham should die," but as a result of this uproar and lamentation, Atham did not die. (Sermon of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad - Mentioned in Al-Fadl Qadian 20 / July 1940) And more light is shed on this Qadiani anxiety by the narration of Mirza Sahib's middle son, Bashir Ahmad M.A., as to what measures Abba Jan (father) took for the death of Atham and what kind of tricks he used. He writes: In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Mian Abdullah Sahib Sanuri narrated to me that when only one day was left in Atham's deadline, the Promised Messiah (peace be upon him) said to me and Mian Hamid Ali to take so many chickpeas (I don't remember how many he said) and recite such and such Surah such a number of times on them (I don't remember the number of recitations either). Mian Abdullah Sahib narrates that I don't remember that Surah, but I remember that it was a small Surah like "Alam Tara Kaifa Fa'ala Rabbuka Bi Ashabil Feel...etc." and we spent almost the whole night finishing this ritual. After finishing the ritual, we took those grains to Hazrat Sahib (Mirza Qadiani) because he had instructed that these grains should be brought to him after the ritual was completed. After that, Hazrat Sahib took both of us out of Qadian, probably to the north, and said that the grains would be thrown into an uninhabited well, and said that when he threw the grains into the well, we should all turn our faces away quickly and return. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1965 should return and should not look back. Consequently, Hazrat Sahib threw those seeds into an uninhabited well and then quickly turned his face and did not look back. (Seerat-ul-Mahdi, Volume 1, Second Edition, p. 178) But the enemy turned out to be so resilient that instead of the 5th, the sun of the 6th of September also set, but he did not die. And this prophecy also turned out to be false. [At this stage, Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali)] Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Tell me, what kind of conversation is this? It is well established about the Prophets (peace be upon them) that they never resort to abusive language; they never respond to insults with insults. According to this standard, observe the following statements of Mirza Sahib: Abuses to the scholars (1) O vile sect of Maulvis! How long will you hide the truth? Now the time will come when you will abandon your Jewish nature. O cruel Maulvis! Alas, you have made the common people drink the cup of the faithless one that you yourselves drank. (Anjam Atham, p. 21) (2) Some ignorant custodians of shrines and ostriches of mendicancy and mullahism (Appendix Anjam Atham, p. 18) August 30, 1974 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (3) But will these people swear an oath? Never, because they are small and, like dogs, are eating the carrion of lies." (Supplement Anjam Atham, p. 25) (4) Heaven has testified to our claim, but the unjust clerics of this era deny it, especially Rais Allah Jalin Abdul Haq Ghaznavi and his entire group, may shoes of curses be upon them, may Allah curse them a thousand thousand times. (5) "O dishonest, vile, and worthless one." (Supplement Anjam Atham, p. 50) (Supplement Anjam Atham, p. 50) (6) "In this place, Pharaoh refers to Sheikh Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, and Haman refers to the new Muslim Saadullah." (Supplement Anjam Atham, p. 56) (7) It is unknown why this ignorant and savage sect still does not take shame and modesty. They blackened the faces of the opposing clerics." Insults to Muslims (Supplement Anjam Atham, p. 58) 1966 (8) "Those are books that every Muslim looks at with an eye of love and affection, and benefits from their knowledge, and accepts me and believes in my call, except for the offspring of prostitutes, whose hearts God has sealed, so they do not accept me." (Aina Kamalat, pp. 547-548) Translation: "Every Muslim looks at these books of mine with an eye of love. And benefits from their knowledge, and accepts me, but the offspring of prostitutes, whose hearts God has sealed, they do not accept me." (9) "The enemies have become swine of the wilderness, and their women are all whores except dogs." (Najm-ul-Huda, p. 225, Author: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) Meaning: May the shoes of curses be upon them a thousand thousand times. QADIAN ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 1967 Translation: "My enemies have become wild boars of the forest, and their women are worse than boats." (10) The person who repeatedly says out of his mischief (that Mirza Sahib's prophecy was proven wrong by the survival of Padre Atham and it was a victory of Christians) and does not use any shame or modesty, and without being able to answer our decision with justice, does not refrain from denial and insolence, and will not believe in our victory, then it will be clearly understood that he is eager to become a bastard and is not legitimate." (Anwar-ul-Islam, page 30, written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) Observe this sweet language and ask the Mirzais: Muhammad is yours, Gabriel is yours, the Quran is yours, But is this sweet word your translator or mine? لَنْ تَجْتَمِعَ أُمَّتِي عَلَى الضَّلَالَةِ Translation: My Ummah will never unite on misguidance! (Hadith of the Prophet) Kanane Pramukh In 1 ATWWW.IN ↑ "LETTERS Eees" TOURISMIT WAT UENERAL DISCUSSI 1705 عالم اسلام کا فیصلہ گزشتہ صفحات میں جو نا قابل انکار دلائل پیش کئے گئے ہیں۔ ان کی وجہ سے اس بات پر پوری امت اسلامیہ کا اجماع ہو چکا ہے۔ کہ مرزائی نہ ہب کے متبعین کا فر اور دائرہ اسلام سے خارج ہیں۔ ہم اپنی اس یادداشت کے ساتھ علماء کرام کے ان فتاوی اور عدالتی مقدمات کے فیصلوں کی مطبوعہ نقول بطور ضمیمہ منسلک کر رہے ہیں۔ جو عالم اسلام کے مختلف مکاتب فکر مختلف حلقوں اور اداروں نے شائع کئے ہیں۔ لیکن ان کا خلاصہ ذیل میں پیش خدمت ہے۔ فتاوی مرزائیوں کے کافر اور دائرہ اسلام سے خارج ہونے پر عالم اسلام میں جو فتوے دیئے گئے ان کا شمار بھی مشکل ہے۔ تاہم چندا ہم مطبوعہ فراوٹی کا حوالہ درج ذیل ہے:۔ (۱) رجب (۱۳۳ھ میں ایک استعفاء برصغیر کے تمام مکاحب فکر کے علماء سے کیا گیا تھا، جو فتویٰ تکفیر قادیان کے نام سے شائع ہوا تھا، اس میں دیوبند، سہارنپور، تھانہ بھون، رائے پور ،دہلی، کلکتہ، بنارس، لکھنو، آگرہ، مراد آباد، لاہور، امرتسر، لدھیانہ، پشاور، راولپنڈی، ملتان، ہوشیار پور، گورداسپور ، جہلم، سیالکوٹ، گوجر انوالہ، گجرات، حیدرآباد دکن، بھوپال اور رام پور کے تمام مکاتب فکر اور تمام دینی مراکز کے علماء نے باتفاق مرزائیوں کو کافر اور دائرہ اسلام سے خارج قرار دیا ہے۔ ملاحظه مونتوی تخییر تمادیان شائع کر دو کتب خانه اعزاز سید یو بند ضلع سہارنپور) (۲) اس قسم کا ایک فتویٰ ۱۹۷۵ء میں دفتر اہل حدیث امرتسر کی طرف سے فسخ نکاح مرزائیاں“ کے نام سے شائع ہو چکا ہے، اور اس میں برصغیر کے مکاتب فکر کے علماء کے دستخط موجود ہیں۔ (۳) مقدمہ بہاولپور میں جو فتاوی پیش ہوئے ان میں برصغیر کے علاوہ بلاد عربیہ کے فتاوی بھی شامل تھے۔ (دیکھئے فتاوی مندرجہ " حجت شرعیہ شائع کرد مجلس تحفظ ختم نبوت لا ہور ملتان )(4) A fatwa published by "Muassasah Makkah Lil-tiba'ah Wal-a'lam" in Saudi Arabia, which includes the decision of scholars from various schools of thought in the Two Holy Mosques, the Land of Hijaz and Syria, includes the following sentences: "There is no doubt that all followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, whether Qadiani or Lahori, are infidels." (Al-Qadianiyyah Fi Nazar Ulama Al-Ummah Al-Islamiyyah, printed in Makkah) Demand for Amendment by 33 Pakistani Scholars In 1953, during a well-known gathering of recognized representative scholars from all schools of thought to consider the constitution of Pakistan, one amendment was that the Qadianis be declared a separate minority from the Muslims, and one seat be reserved for them in the Punjab Assembly, and the Qadianis of other regions also be given the right to stand for and vote in that seat. The scholars presented this amendment with the following words: Amendment This is a very necessary amendment, which we present with full insistence. It is not appropriate for the constitution makers of the country to be indifferent to the conditions and specific social issues of their country and start making a constitution merely based on their personal ideologies. They should know the delicate situation that this Qadiani issue has created in those areas of the country where a large number of Qadianis are mixed with Muslims. They should not be like the foreign rulers of the past who did not understand the sensitivity of the Hindu-Muslim issue. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 1971 They did not realize it until every corner of United India was stained with the blood of riots between the two communities. It would be a great pity if the constitution-makers, who are themselves residents of this country, do not believe that there is a Qadiani-Muslim issue here that desperately needs to be resolved until they see the Qadiani-Muslim conflict in Pakistan raging like a fire. What has brought this issue to the brink of delicacy is that on the one hand, the Qadianis infiltrate the Muslims by becoming Muslims, and on the other hand, they are not only separate from the Muslims in beliefs, worship, and collective organization, but also stand against them. And religiously, they openly declare all Muslims as infidels. The cure for this evil is still the same today as it was before (as Allama Iqbal (late) stated about thirty years ago) that Qadianis should be declared a separate minority from Muslims. Resolution of the Muslim World League In the holy city of Mecca, which is the center of Islam, a grand gathering of religious organizations from the entire Islamic world was held in Rabi' al-Awwal 1394 AH, corresponding to April 1974 AD, in which representatives of 44 organizations from Islamic countries and even Muslim populations participated. This was a representative gathering of Muslims from Morocco to Indonesia. The resolution passed regarding Mirzaism in it has the status of the latest consensus of the Ummah on the fallacy of Mirzaism. The text of this resolution is as follows: 1972 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Qadianism is a destructive cult that uses the name of Islam as a guise to conceal its malicious purposes. Its most prominent violations of Islam include its leader's claim to prophethood, distortion of Quranic texts, and invalidation of Jihad. Qadianism is a creation of British colonialism and only thrives under its protection. Qadianism betrays the causes of the Muslim Ummah and stands in alliance with colonialism and Zionism, cooperating with forces rising against Islam and using these forces as a front to undermine and distort the Islamic faith by: 1. Establishing temples funded by hostile powers, where misleading propaganda of deviant Qadiani disbelief takes place. 2. Opening schools, institutes, and orphanages where Qadianism practices its subversive activities for the benefit of forces hostile to Islam. Qadianism publishes distorted translations of the meanings of the Holy Quran in various international languages. To counter its danger, the conference decided: 1. Every Islamic organization should enumerate the Qadiani activities in their temples, schools, orphanages, and all places where they carry out their destructive activities in their respective regions, and expose the Qadianis and introduce them to the Islamic world to avoid falling into their traps. 2. Declare this sect as infidel and apostate from Islam. 3. To not deal with Qadianis or Ahmadis, to boycott them economically, socially, and culturally, not to marry them, not to bury them in Muslim cemeteries, and to treat them as infidels. Demanding Islamic governments to prohibit all activities of followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the claimant of prophethood, and to consider them a non-Muslim minority and prevent them from holding sensitive government positions. Publishing pictorial representations of all Qadiani distortions in the Holy Quran, along with restricting Qadiani translations of the meanings of the Quran, raising awareness about them, and prohibiting the circulation of these translations. Translation of Resolution: Qadianism is a false sect that, in order to fulfill its malicious purposes, seeks to undermine the foundations of Islam by cloaking itself in the guise of Islam. Its opposition to the definitive principles of Islam is clear from the following: (a) Its founder's claim to prophethood. (b) Distortion of Quranic verses. (c) Issuing a fatwa declaring Jihad to be invalid. The foundation of Qadianism was laid by British imperialism, and it nurtured it. It is active under the patronage of imperialism. Qadianis, by supporting anti-Islamic forces, betray the interests of Muslims and, with the help of these forces, employ various tactics to distort, alter, and uproot the fundamental beliefs of Islam, such as: (a) Establishing centers of apostasy in the world in the name of mosques, with the sponsorship of anti-Islamic forces. (B) Completion of their objectives with the help of non-Muslim forces in the name of Madrasas, schools, orphanages, and relief camps. (C) Publication of distorted versions of the Holy Quran in different languages ​​of the world, etc. In view of these dangers, it was decided in the conference that: It is the duty of every Islamic organization and groups all over the world to closely monitor Qadianism and all kinds of its anti-Islam activities in their places of worship, centers, orphanages, etc., and to take stock of all their covert political activities, and then to fully expose them to the Muslim world in order to avoid their spread of schemes and conspiracies. Also, (A) It should be announced that this group is an infidel and out of Islam, and that for this reason they will not be allowed to enter the holy places of Haramain, etc. Muslims should not deal with Ahmadis in any way. And they should be boycotted in every field including economic, social, collective, family, etc. (1) The conference demands all Islamic countries to ban all kinds of activities of Qadianis. All their resources and means should be confiscated and no Qadiani should be given any responsible position in any Islamic country. (1) People should be made aware of the distortions of the Quran by the Qadianis, and all their translations of the Quran should be counted and people should be warned against them. And the promotion of these translations should be prevented. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Sahib! Let's take a rest for ten to fifteen minutes. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION The House is adjourned for 15 minutes. We will start at 11.15 a.m. The Special Committee adjourned for tea break to re-assemble at 11.15 a.m. [The Special Committee re-assembled after tea break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] 1975 Mr. Chairman: Call Mufti Sahib. (Mufti Sahib enters) Mr. Chairman: Wait two minutes. (Pause) Maulana Mufti Mahmood! Maulvi Mufti Mahmood Court Decisions Now, here is a summary of those court decisions in which the Mirzais have been declared as infidels and out of the circle of Islam. Decision of Bahawalpur Case By the court of Mr. Munshi Muhammad Akbar Khan, B.A. LL.B. District Judge District Bahawalpur, in the case of Musamat Ghulam Aisha, daughter of Maulvi Elahi Bakhsh, resident of Ahmedpur Sharqia, State of Bahawalpur. 3 Versus Abdur Razzaq, son of Maulvi Jan Muhammad, resident of Mouza Mehand, Tehsil Ahmedpur Sharqia, State of Bahawalpur. Claim for obtaining a declaratory decree indicative of the annulment of the marriage of the parties due to the apostasy of the husband, the defendant. Date of decision: 27 February 1935. 1976 [30th Aug., 1974 Sheikh Muhammad Rashid (Minister for Health and Social Welfare): I may only point out that all important parts of the judgments of different courts should be read out. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Mr. Chairman: The judgments of the courts run into hundred of pages and their operative parts are many. The details are given in the judgments. He is giving operative portions to support their claim. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood, after describing the details of the case, finally wrote and announced his decision in the following words: It has been proven from all the discussion above that the issue of the finality of prophethood is one of the fundamental principles of Islam. And that not believing in the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, as the Seal of the Prophets, in the sense that he is the last prophet, leads to apostasy. And that according to Islamic beliefs, a person is expelled from the circle of Islam even by uttering a word of disbelief. The defendant, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, believes in him as a prophet according to the Qadiani beliefs, and according to his teachings, he believes that the series of prophethood will continue in the Ummah of Muhammad until the Day of Judgment, meaning that he does not recognize the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, as the Seal of the Prophets, i.e., the last prophet. The evils that result from accepting another person as a new prophet after the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, their details have been described above. Therefore, the defendant will be considered an apostate due to his deviation from this consensus belief of the Ummah, and even if the meaning of apostasy is taken to mean a slight deviation from the principles of a religion, then too the defendant will be considered a follower of a new religion by believing Mirza Sahib to be a prophet. Because in this case, his interpretation and practice of the Quran This will be Mirza Sahib's revelation, not the hadiths and sayings of jurists on which the religion of Islam has been based until now, and some of which Mirza Sahib himself has also acknowledged to be authentic. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Moreover, there are some commandments in Ahmad's religion that are additional to the Sharia of Muhammad, and some are against it. For example, giving a monthly donation, as shown above, is an additional commandment to Zakat. Similarly, not offering funeral prayers for non-Ahmadis, not giving an Ahmadi girl in marriage to a non-Ahmadi, and not praying behind a non-Ahmadi are actions against the Sharia of Muhammad. Explanations for these matters have been given by the defendant, stating why they do not offer funeral prayers for non-Ahmadis and why they do not give their daughters in marriage to them. However, these explanations are not useful because these matters are mentioned in the commands of their leaders. Therefore, from their point of view, they will be considered a part of the Sharia, which cannot be considered in accordance with the Sharia of Muhammad in any way. Along with this, when it is seen that they consider all non-Ahmadis as infidels, there remains no doubt in declaring their religion as a separate religion from Islam. Furthermore, the defendant's witness, Maulvi Jalaluddin, in connection with Muslema and other false claimants of prophethood, has stated that, according to the witness, a false claim of prophethood is a cause of apostasy, and whoever accepts a false claimant of prophethood is considered an apostate. It has been proven by the plaintiff that Mirza Sahib is a false claimant of prophethood. Therefore, the defendant will also be declared an apostate for accepting Mirza Sahib as a prophet. Hence, the initial inquiries that were formulated by the court of Munsif Ahmedpur Sharqia on November 9, 1926 AD, are also proven by the plaintiff, and it is declared that the defendant has become an apostate due to adopting Qadiani beliefs. Therefore, the plaintiff's marriage with him has been dissolved from the date of the defendant's apostasy. And if the defendant's beliefs are viewed in light of the above discussion, even then, according to the defendant's claim, the plaintiff has succeeded in proving that no Ummah prophet can come after the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him. And that, in addition to this, the other beliefs that the defendant has... 1977 1978 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Those that are attributed to him, though in accordance with common Islamic beliefs, he will be deemed to be acting upon these beliefs in the meanings that Mirza Sahib has stated, and these meanings, since they are contrary to the meanings that the majority of the Ummah has taken until today, therefore he cannot be considered a Muslim, and in both cases, he is an apostate, and the marriage of an apostate is dissolved by apostasy. Therefore, a decree to this effect is issued in favor of the plaintiff that she has not been his wife since the date of the defendant's apostasy. The plaintiff will also be entitled to receive the expenses of the case from the defendant. In this regard, a question has been raised by the defendant that since both parties consider the Holy Quran to be the Book of Allah and marriage with the People of the Book is permissible, therefore the plaintiff's marriage should not be declared dissolved. In response to this, it has been said by the plaintiff that when both parties call each other apostates, then according to their respective beliefs, their mutual marriage does not remain valid. Moreover, it is permissible to marry women from the People of the Book, not men as well. According to the plaintiff's claim, since the defendant has become an apostate, therefore, even as a member of the People of the Book, the plaintiff's marriage with him cannot remain valid. This argument of the plaintiff is found to be weighty. Therefore, on this basis also, she is entitled to receive a decree. Response to the Madras High Court etc. Decision The decision of the Madras High Court is being cited with great fervor by the Mirzais. The Honorable Judge, while responding to it, said: The defendant had also cited some legal precedents in his favor, out of which the decisions of the Patna and Punjab High Courts were not considered applicable to the facts of the case by the High Court Chief Court, and the decision of the Madras High Court was not considered worthy of following by the High Court Special Bench. did not approve. As for the decision of the High Court Chief Court Bahawalpur in the case of Musmat Jindwadi vs. Karim Bakhsh, the situation is that this decision was issued by the meeting of Mr. Mehta and Mr. Hudas Sahib Judge Chief Court. The gentleman had decided this case relying solely on the decision of the Madras High Court. And he did not conduct any trial on the disputed issues that were recorded in the said decision. Since the case had been pending for a long time, the gentleman He did not like to keep it pending for a long time and decided it according to the decision. The High Court Since it did not consider this decision to be binding, the decision on which that decision was based, therefore The decision under discussion is also not binding. The plaintiff's attorney is present from among the parties, he was informed of the order. The defendant passed away after the proceedings of this case were completed While the case was under consideration. This order against him will be considered under Order 22 Rule 6 Civil Procedure Code, a decree should be prepared and the file should be entered in the office. February 7, 1935, corresponding to 3rd Dhi al-Qa'dah, 1353 AH Signature: At Bahawalpur Muhammad Akbar District Judge, District Bahawalnagar State of Bahawalpur (in English letters) Decision of Rawalpindi Case In the court of Mr. Sheikh Muhammad Akbar, Additional District Judge Rawalpindi, Civil Appeal 1955 Ummat-ul-Karim daughter of Karam Ilahi Rajput Janjua, House No. 500/B, Mohalla Trunk Bazaar, Rawalpindi (Mirzai) Versus Lieutenant Nazir-ud-Din Malik son of Master Muhammad Din Awan, Mohalla Krishanpura, Rawalpindi Date of Decision: 3rd June 1955 (Muslim) After discussing the details of the case, the aforementioned court finally wrote and announced its decision in the following words: In the above situation, I have reached the following conclusions: 1. There is a consensus among Muslims that the Prophet of Islam is the last prophet of God, and no other prophet will come after him. 2. There is a consensus among Muslims that whoever does not believe in the finality of our Prophet is not a Muslim. 3. There is a consensus among Muslims that Qadianis are non-Muslims. 4. According to his own declarations, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed that he received such revelation that was equal to the revelation of prophethood. 5. The standards that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself set in his early books contradict his claim to prophethood. QADIANI ISSUE – GENERAL DISCUSSION 1981 They claimed to be complete prophets. The whole story of before and after is just a sham. No revelation of prophethood can come upon anyone after the Holy Prophet, and whoever claims such is outside the bounds of Islam. Based on the above reasoning and conclusions, I believe that the decision of the initial hearing court is correct, and I endorse the entire decision. There is no weight in Musamat Ummat-ul-Karim's appeal, and I dismiss the appeal. As for Lieutenant Nazir Uddin's appeal, Mr. Zafar Mahmood Advocate told me very little about it. Ummat-ul-Karim's dowry items were found in his possession, and their value has been assessed. There is no weight in his appeal either, so I dismiss it as well. Since both parties' appeals have been dismissed, I am not giving any order regarding expenses. Signature Sheikh Muhammad Akbar Session Judge Rawalpindi June 3, 1955 [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi)] 1982 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Judgement of the Jamesabad Case Family Suit No. 9/1969, Musmat Ummat-ul-Hadi, daughter of Sardar Khan, Plaintiff Versus Hakim Nazir Ahmed Barq, Defendant The result of the above discussion is that the marriage of the plaintiff, who is a Muslim woman, with the defendant, who himself admitted to being a Qadiani at the time of the marriage, and thus declared himself a non-Muslim, is ineffective and has no legal status. According to Islamic teachings, the plaintiff is not the wife of the defendant. The plaintiff's request for annulment of marriage is decided in her favor. And the defendant is prohibited from declaring the plaintiff as his wife. The plaintiff is also entitled to recover the costs of this case. This decision was read out in open court on July 13 by Mr. Qaiser Ahmed Hameedi, successor to Sheikh Muhammad Rafiq Gareja, who was appointed in his place as Civil and Family Court Judge of Jamesabad. The Biggest Case in the Mauritius Supreme Court "The Rose Belle Mosque case is called the biggest case in the history of Mauritius because the Supreme Court took statements and heard testimonies for two whole years, and for the first time, it ruled that: Muslims are a separate Ummah and Qadianis are separate. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1983 To fight this case, both Muslims and Qadianis hired famous lawyers from other countries. Among the Muslims who worked daily to reclaim the mosque from the Qadianis were Mahmood Ishaq Ji, Ismail Hassan Ji, and Ibrahim Hassan Ji. These people held a high position in the commercial circles there. The basis of the case they filed was: Claim: The mosque in Rose Hall, where people of the Hanafi (Sunni) sect of Muslims used to pray, was built by them, and they had been continuously occupying it. The Qadianis, who do not belong to the Islamic Ummah, have occupied it. The Qadianis do not consider us Muslims, and their prayer is not performed behind us. In such a situation, they should be removed from the mosque. Consequently, this case was filed on February 26, 1919. Twenty-one testimonies were presented against the Qadianis. Among these testimonies, the testimony of Maulana Abdullah Rashid Nawab is particularly noteworthy. In the High Court, he fearlessly exposed the Qadianis and presented hundreds of books, newspapers, magazines, and journals, successfully convincing the court that Qadianis and Muslims are separate communities. Maulana Rashid presented the books and references of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. On behalf of the Qadianis, Maulvi Ghulam Muhammad BA assisted the lawyers and prepared the response to the claim. Maulvi Ghulam Muhammad had specially gone to Qadian for this purpose. Among the Muslims' lawyers were Mr. Rollard KC, Souza KH, Estoff, and E. Nayarik, while the Qadianis' lawyer was Mr. R. Pani. During the proceedings of the High Court, thousands of Muslims were present, and for the first time in the country, it became known that Qadianis are not Muslims but achieve their goals in the guise of Muslims. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Therefore, on November 19, 1920, Chief Justice Sir Ayres Chitchele Wedderburn read out the verdict as follows: VERDICT The High Court has come to the conclusion that the defendant (Qadiani) has no right to offer prayers behind an Imam of his choice in the mosque of the people. In this mosque, only the plaintiff (Muslim) will be able to offer prayers in the light of his beliefs." Another judge of this court, Mr. T.E. Rose Lee, also agreed with this decision. The opinion of the painter of Pakistan, Allama Iqbal Finally, some sayings of the Poet of the East, the painter of Pakistan, Allama Iqbal Sahib, are presented. Feeling the anti-Islamic nature of Mirzais, he wrote numerous articles to warn the entire Ummah of this danger. It is difficult to present all those articles here, however, a few necessary excerpts are presented. He states in the June issue of "Round Table": Islam is necessarily a religious community with defined boundaries, that is, belief in the Oneness of God, belief in the Prophets, and belief in the finality of the Holy Prophet. In fact, this last conviction is the one reality that distinguishes between Muslim and non-Muslim, and QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION What is decisive for determining whether an individual or group belongs to the Muslim community? For example, Though we believe in one God and acknowledge the Holy Prophet as God's messenger, we cannot be counted among the Muslim community. Because, like the Qadianis, they believe in the continuation of revelation through prophets and do not believe in the finality of prophethood of the Holy Prophet. As far as I know, no Islamic sect has dared to cross this dividing line. In Iran, the Baha'is explicitly denied the principle of the finality of prophethood, but at the same time, they said that they are a separate group and are not included among Muslims. In my opinion, there are only two paths before the Qadianis: either they should follow the Baha'is, or they should abandon the interpretations of the finality of prophethood and accept this principle with its full meaning. Their modern interpretations are merely for the purpose of being counted in the circle of Islam so that they can obtain political benefits." He writes at another place: (Harf-e-Iqbal, pp. 127, 138, published Lahore, 1955) So-called educated Muslims have never considered the civilizational aspect of the finality of prophethood, and the influence of Westernization has deprived them of the spirit of self-preservation. Some such so-called educated Muslims have advised their Muslim brothers to be tolerant. (Harf-e-Iqbal, p. 611) Further, addressing the non-Muslim government of India, he writes: The government should consider the current situation and assess the mentality of the Muslim world in this matter, which is extremely important for national unity, if 1985 1700 ANAR LANGINAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 When the unity of a nation is in danger, it has no choice but to defend itself against hostile forces. The question arises, what is the method of defense? The method is simply this: in the main group, any person who is found to be using religion as a guise, playing with religion, his claims should be refuted through speech and writing. Then, is it appropriate to preach tolerance to the main group, even though its unity is in danger, and the rebel group has full permission to preach, even if that preaching is full of lies and slander? If a group that is loyal to the main group from the government's point of view is useful to the government, then the government is fully authorized to reward its services. Other groups cannot have any complaints about this, but it is futile to expect that the group itself will ignore forces that are a threat to its collective existence. It is said that some people from different sects of Muslims declare each other as infidels, therefore their fatwas are no longer valid. Answering this, the Poet of the East writes; At this point, it is probably not necessary to repeat that the religious disputes of the numerous sects of Muslims have no effect on the fundamental issues on which all sects agree, even if they issue decrees of heresy against each other.” (Letters of Iqbal, pp. 117-118) Then, while suggesting a solution to the Qadiani issue, the Poet of the East says, QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 1987 In my opinion, the best course of action for the government would be to recognize the Qadianis as a separate group. This would be in line with the Qadianis' policy, and Muslims would treat them with the same tolerance as they do with other religions. (Ibid.) This is the demand that the late Dr. Iqbal made to the British government. Now, the state that has come into existence in the capacity of being the interpretation of the dreams of the Poet of the East, taking his name, it is its first duty to bring this desire of the Poet of the East to completion. 1988 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Appendix Some Mirza'i Misconceptions QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 1989 They do not change themselves, they change the Quran. UT FRAJSLAND August 10, 1974 Addressing a Few Misconceptions When Muslims demand that Mirzais be declared a non-Muslim minority, the Mirzai gentlemen try to mislead in various ways. Here is a brief review of these misconceptions: The Issue of Declaring a Kalima Reciter as Non-Muslim The Mirzais say that no one has the right to declare a person who recites the Kalima and confesses to being a Muslim as a non-believer. First of all, note this audacity: this statement is being made by people who openly call seven hundred million Muslims of the world non-believers, and who do not feel any shame in considering those who truly believe in the Kalima La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah and all its necessary requirements as outside the pale of Islam, wretched, ill-natured, even the children of prostitutes. So, calling every Kalima reciter a Muslim is only a one-sided rule that applies only to non-Ahmadis, and the Mirzai gentlemen themselves have a free hand to call Muslims non-believers with as much vehemence as they want, to hurl vulgar abuses at them, to attack the honor of their elders and most sacred personalities, their Islam can never be affected, nor can they be accused of calling a Kalima reciter a non-believer. This is the justice of this Mirzai religion, which, tearing the face of shame, decency, and morality, declares itself the second manifestation of the spirituality of Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Mirza Sahib says that everyone looks at my books with love and benefits from their knowledge and confirms my invitation, except for the children of prostitutes whose hearts Allah has sealed, they do not believe in them. (Aina-e-Kamalat-e-Islam, pg. 538, new edition) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1991 Then God knows where this principle was concocted from that every person who recites the Kalima and calls himself a Muslim is a Muslim, and no one can declare him an infidel? The question is, didn't Musaylima Kazzab recite the Kalima of Shahada? Then why did the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and the Companions themselves declare him an infidel and wage war against him? And why did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself repeatedly call not only Musaylima Kazzab but also every claimant of prophethood after him an infidel and a liar? If today a new claimant of prophethood rises reciting the Kalima and denies all the prophets except the Holy Prophet (PBUH), mocks the belief in the Hereafter, refuses to acknowledge the Holy Quran as the book of Allah, declares himself superior to all the prophets, abrogates prayer and fasting, deems lying, alcohol, fornication, usury, and gambling permissible, and rejects every command of Islam except the Kalima "La Ilaha Illallah Muhammad Rasulullah," will he still be considered a Muslim based on reciting the Kalima? If Islam is such a loose garment in which every worst belief and worst deed can fit after reciting the Kalima, then it is futile to claim that Islam is the most superior, stable, organized, and regular religion among all the religions of the world. Do those who insist on calling every Kalima reciter a Muslim think that this Kalima is (God forbid) some mantra or magic spell that once recited makes a person "kafir-proof" forever, and after that, even the worst belief cannot exclude him from Islam? If reason and justice and honesty have not completely disappeared from the world, how can this picture be imagined about Islam, such a scientific and rational religion, that after uttering just a few words from the tongue, a person becomes a Jannah resident from a hell resident and an infidel from a Muslim, even if his beliefs are completely against the will of Allah and the Messenger? The fact is that the Kalima "La Ilaha Illallah Muhammad Rasulullah" (God forbid) is not magic or a talisman; it is a contract and an agreement in which Allah Almighty is declared the only God and Muhammad 1994 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 To believe that Muhammad (PBUH) is the Messenger of Allah means that one makes this agreement that I will attest to everything that Allah and His Messenger (PBUH) have said. Therefore, I accept as correct all the things that Allah or His Messenger (PBUH) have conveyed to us with continuous transmission and certainty. Belief in La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasoolullah is an essential part and its indispensable requirement. If a person refuses to accept even one of these continuously transmitted certainties as correct, then in reality he does not believe in the Kalima of Tawheed, even if he recites La ilaha illallah with his tongue, therefore he cannot be called a Muslim. Since the belief in Khatm-e-Nabuwwat (Finality of Prophethood) is proven through continuous transmission from dozens of verses of the Holy Quran and hundreds of sayings of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), therefore, by the consensus of the Ummah, it is among those certainties upon which believing is an essential part of the Kalima Tayyiba and without which a person cannot be a Muslim. In this regard, an attempt is made to infer from some of the hadiths in which, while describing the signs of a Muslim, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said that "whoever prays like us, faces our Qibla, and eats our slaughtered animal is a Muslim." But anyone who has the ability to understand the matter and understands the style and manner of the hadith can understand that a legal and comprehensive definition of a Muslim is not being given here, but rather those social signs of Muslims are being described through which the Muslim society is distinguished from other religions and societies, and its purpose is only that it is not correct to unnecessarily suspect or unnecessarily find fault with a person whose outward signs testify to his being a Muslim. But where did this meaning come from that if he himself openly confesses infidelity in front of the Muslims, but rather invites the whole world to these infidelities and declares all Muslims except his followers as infidels, then even then he will be entitled to be called a Muslim only because of eating the slaughtered animals of Muslims. Even if he does not believe in La ilaha illallah and its requirements. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1993 In reality, this Hadith does not define a Muslim, but rather describes his outward signs. The complete definition of a Muslim is actually stated in this saying of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him): I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and believe in me and in what I have brought. (Narrated by Muslim from Abu Hurairah, page 37, vol. 1) I have been commanded to fight people until they bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and believe in me and in everything that I have brought. In it, the complete reality of a Muslim has been stated, that believing in every teaching brought by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is an essential part of "I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah," and this saying of yours is derived from that verse of the Holy Quran in which Allah Almighty has stated: But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission. But no, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you the judge in all disputes between them and find no resistance within themselves to your decisions and accept them with full submission. This is the reality of uttering the Kalima, and contrary to this, the idea of being safe from disbelief forever merely by reciting the Kalima is a creation of the enemies of Islam who wanted to erase the dividing line between Islam and disbelief and make it a mixture in which every evil belief could be mixed according to their political and religious interests. The extreme is that some people also present this Quranic verse in connection with the definition of a Muslim 1994 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 They say nothing to the effect of: "Do not say to one who offers you peace, 'You are not a believer.'" That is, do not say to the person who greets you that you are not a believer. To become a Muslim, one must at least recite the Kalima. After presenting this verse in the definition of a Muslim, even that is waived. Now, to be a Muslim, it is enough to say only "Assalam-o-Alaikum" or even just "Salam." And every Hindu, Parsi, Buddhist, Christian, and Jew can become a Muslim by simply addressing Muslims with "Salam." We seek refuge in Allah, the Great. Fatwas of Mutual Excommunication Among Muslims and Their Reality To divert attention from the real issue, the second deception given by the Mirzais is that the scholars who issue fatwas of disbelief against us themselves declare each other as disbelievers. Therefore, their fatwas have lost credibility. But the example of this "argument" is exactly like someone saying that since some quacks and doctors have wrongly treated some people, no doctor is credible anymore, and the entire medical science is now useless, and those medical issues are not worthy of consideration on which all the doctors of the world agree. Recently, a booklet has been published by the Mirzai community with the title "Why We Do Not Pray Behind Non-Ahmadis," and it presents the mutual differences of Muslim schools of thought and those fatwas in an extremely exaggerated manner in which one another has been declared a disbeliever. But first of all, there is a reference to some such fatwas in this booklet about which it can be said with full responsibility that they have been completely wrongly attributed to their speakers. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 1995 Secondly, although this booklet painstakingly attempts to gather all the violent material that came to light during mutual disputes, among the dozens of quotations, there are only five instances of Muslims from different schools of thought declaring each other as infidels. The rest are not verdicts of infidelity but rather statements that came from their pens or tongues during their regrettable mutual quarrels. Harsh language was undoubtedly used against each other, but it is not correct to consider them verdicts of infidelity in any way. Thirdly, these five verdicts do not fully represent their respective schools of thought. That is, it is not the case that the entire school of thought to which they belong agrees with these verdicts. Instead, in every Muslim school of thought, researchers and moderate scholars have always strongly disagreed with the carelessness and haste that has been shown in such verdicts. Therefore, it is completely wrong, baseless, and misleading to give the impression by presenting these few examples that all schools of thought declare each other as infidels. Instead, the reality is that there has been an era in every school of thought in which there has been so much extremism in opposing the other that it reaches the point of takfir (declaring someone an infidel), but a large number of scholars in that school of thought have always kept the minor differences within their limits, and not only have they not exceeded these limits but have also served it, and in practice, this mixed and moderate era has been dominant, a clear example of which is that whenever a common problem arises for Muslims, the verdicts of some individuals never become an obstacle in the way of all these schools of thought sitting together. These Muslim sects, whose sectarian divisions are propagated loudly all over the world, and whose differences have been amplified by people to promote their false ideologies, are the very ones who gathered in 1951 to determine the constitutional foundations of Pakistan and, without any minor disagreement, determined the basic principles of the Islamic constitution and rose, while the propaganda of this kind was 1996 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Agreement is an impossible task. On the occasion of 1953, when the stage came to collectively decide on the determined Islamic amendments in the proposed constitution, they came together and presented unanimous recommendations, whereas this task was considered more unexpected than the previous task. In 1953, they collectively adopted a joint stance on the issue of Qadianism. In 1972, during the constitution-making, they remained united and participated in this fundamental task. There was an uproar all over the world that these people cannot even come up with a unanimous definition of a Muslim. But in 1972, they exposed this propaganda with complete consensus and unity. And now again, they are standing shoulder to shoulder in the face of open disbelief of Mirzaism. In short, whenever a common religious issue of Islam and Muslims came up, their mutual religious differences never proved to be an obstacle in adopting a collective stance. But has anyone ever seen a Mirzaite being invited to such gatherings? By considering this action, a few things become clear: Firstly, the edicts of declaring each other as infidels have individual status, not a representative status of any school of thought. Otherwise, these schools of thought would never gather as Muslims. Secondly, the dominant element in every school of thought is the one that keeps the sub-branches within the sphere of sub-branches and does not make mutual disagreement a means of declaring infidelity, and such gatherings would not gain general acceptance. Thirdly, all these people agree on those fundamental beliefs of Islam that actually serve as a dividing line between faith and disbelief. Therefore, If some people have adopted the path of extremism and severity in the matter of declaring infidelity, how can it be concluded from this that now no one in the world can be an infidel, and even if all these people together call someone an infidel, he will not be an infidel? 1997 QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Don't charlatans in the world practice cruelty on humans by treating them? In fact, doesn't even the most expert doctor make mistakes? But has any person, who is not completely mentally disabled, ever said that as punishment for these individual mistakes, nothing that the class of doctors says should be acceptable? Don't mistakes happen in court decisions? But has anyone thought that due to these individual mistakes, the courts should be locked up? Or that no decision of the judges should be accepted? Don't engineers make mistakes in the construction of houses, roads, and buildings? But has any sensible person ever suggested that due to these mistakes, the construction contract should be given to gravediggers instead of engineers? So, if there have been some carelessness or mistakes in a few partial fatwas, how does it mean that now the decisions of Islam and disbelief should be made on the basis of Mirzaite distortions instead of the Quran and Sunnah? The poet of the East, the painter of Pakistan, Allama Iqbal (late) was absolutely right when he demanded that the Mirzais be declared a minority: "The religious disputes of the countless sects of Muslims do not affect the fundamental issues on which all sects agree, even if they accuse each other of heresy." (Hurf-e-Iqbal, p. 127, published by Al-Manar Academy Lahore, 1947) Two Narrations The Mirzaite gentlemen have extracted two weak and unsteady narrations from the collection of millions of hadiths and tried to take support for their self-made prophethood by giving them arbitrary meanings, so it is appropriate to take a look at them here as well. 1998 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 197 will be. Say, "He is the Seal of the Prophets," and do not say, "No prophet will come after him." The first unknown chain of narration is taken from Durr-e-Mansoor, and it is that Hazrat Aisha said: (Call the Holy Prophet (PBUH) the Seal of the Prophets, and do not say that no prophet will come after him.) First of all, consider where this narration has been taken from. If you want to find it in any well-known book of Hadith, you will be disappointed, because this narration is not found in Bukhari, Muslim, or even Nasai, Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Dari, Musnad Ahmad, in short, in any available book of Hadith. Where has it been brought from? From Durr-e-Mansoor by Allama Suyuti, about which even the lowest student knows that all kinds of good and bad, weak and fabricated narrations have been collected in it without any sifting. Moreover, in Hadith, everything depends on its chain of narration, and the chain of narration of this narration is unknown. Now, if this is not a favor to the claimants of prophethood in the words of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then what is it? On the one hand, in the eyes of the Mirzais, the clear and explicit verses of the Holy Quran and hundreds of continuous and authentic hadiths of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) are negligible, and on the other hand, this narration with an unknown chain of narration, which has no credibility according to the science of Hadith, is so definitive and certain that it is being presented to break a continuous, definitive, and unanimous belief like the finality of prophethood. Is the prophethood of any prophet ever proven by such a narration? But this should be said to a person who is bound by some academic or rational rule and regulation, and where every matter based on reason, knowledge, and morality has no answer except self-made inspiration, how much pile of arguments and proofs you may put. In the words of Mirza Sahib, its answer will be found somewhere that God has informed me that all these hadiths that they present are tainted with semantic or verbal distortion or are fabricated altogether, and the one who has come as a judge has the authority to choose whichever pile he wants from the store of hadiths. He should accept with knowledge from God and reject whichever pile he wants with knowledge from God." (Pause) Arbaeen Number 6, page 18 (Footnote) (Printed) Maulvi Mufti Mahmood, Sir! I have this complaint that those gentlemen who came here and spent two, three weeks here, glasses of water were brought to them brimming, and I have been standing for three hours. Why this discrimination? Respected Acting Chairperson (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi): You didn't ask. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: They were brought to them brimming without asking. For me, it's Karbala, you see. Respected Acting Chairperson: Excuse me, Maulana! They're bringing it now, just remembered. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Actually, I said this as a joke. A Member: Maulana! You are one of us, you can ask. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: That's why I asked. (Pause) Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Furthermore, the matter that has been stated in this tradition has no connection with Mirza'i beliefs, rather this tradition is a clear refutation of the Mirza'i view on the belief in the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him). Its purpose is merely that if only this sentence is spoken, "No prophet will come after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)," then an ignorant person may understand it to be against the belief of the second coming of the Messiah (peace be upon him) and it can be concluded from this that Hazrat Messiah (peace be upon him) will not come after him either. Therefore, there is no need to use such words for which the purpose can be fully achieved by saying "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" which might confuse the ignorant. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug. 1974 May cause some misunderstanding, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said "La Nabiyya Ba'di" (there is no prophet after me), then along with it, not once or twice, but hundreds of times, he also explained that it means that no prophet will be born after me, yes, Hazrat Isa (A.S.) who already has prophethood and who was born long ago, will descend again, on the contrary, if another person says only this sentence that no prophet will come after you, then a naive person who hears only that much may fall prey to some misunderstanding. This explanation of the saying attributed to Hazrat Aisha is present in Dur Mansur itself. Narrated from Al-Shaabi that a man said in front of Al-Mughira bin Sha'ba, "May Allah shower blessings on Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, there is no prophet after him." Al-Mughira bin Sha'ba said, "It is enough for you to say "Seal of the Prophets," because we have been told that Jesus (peace be upon him) is about to come, and when he comes, he will have come before him and after him." (Dur Mansur, p. 204, vol. 5) Therefore, this guidance of Hazrat Aisha and Hazrat Mughira bin Shuaiba, even if it is proven by Sanad, is in accordance with this saying of Hazrat Ali in which he said that: "Speak to people in a way they can understand" (Sahih Bukhari) And this narration not only does not provide any support to Mirza'i beliefs, but it explicitly QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2001 It refutes them, and as far as Hazrat Aisha is concerned, in the Musnad of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, this narration of hers is present: From Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that he said: "Nothing of Prophethood will remain after me except good tidings." They said, "O Messenger of Allah, what are the good tidings?" He said, "Good dreams that a Muslim sees himself or that are seen for him." (Musnad Ahmad 139 vol. 6, Kanz al-Ummal) After this, can there be any doubt that in the view of Hazrat Aisha, every type of prophethood and every part of it, except for good dreams, ended with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and now no person can be given this position in any way? 2. Another weak narration is quoted from Ibn Majah that when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)'s son Ibrahim passed away, he said: "If he had lived, he would have been a Siddiq prophet." The condition of this hadith is also that the critical Imams of hadith have declared it weak, even false. A highly esteemed Muhaddith like Imam Nawawi says: "This hadith is false." (Mauduat Kabir p. 58) Regarding one of the narrators of this hadith, Abu Shaybah Ibrahim bin Uthman, Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug, 1974 He says that he is not reliable." Imam Tirmidhi says that "he is an unreliable narrator of Hadith." Imam Nasai writes that he is "abandoned in Hadith." Imam Jawzajai says that he is not to be trusted. Imam Abu Hatim's instruction is that he is a weak narrator of Hadith. (See Al-Tahdheeb Al-Mahad, p. 144 & 45, vol. 1) However, the words of this narration are narrated in Sahih Bukhari as a saying of Abdullah bin Abi Adi in this way: If it were decreed that there would be a prophet after Muhammad, his son would have lived, but there is no prophet after him. If the prophethood of a prophet after Muhammad (peace be upon him) was destined, your son would have lived, but there is no prophet after you. These words have also clarified the reality of Ibn Majah's weak narration, what is its real purpose? And what is against the end of prophethood, in fact, this belief becomes even more firm and irrefutable. It is a settled fact that Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic book after the Holy Quran, so if a weak narration comes somewhere else or its explanation should also be known from the words of Sahih Bukhari, and if reconciliation is not possible, then the narration of Sahih Bukhari should be chosen by abandoning the weak narration, Mirza Sahib's condition is that he rejects a hadith of Sahih Muslim merely on the basis that Imam Bukhari did not mention it, so he writes in Izala Auham. "This is the hadith that Imam Muslim Sahib has written in Sahih Muslim, which the chief of Hadith, Imam Muhammad Ismail Bukhari, has abandoned considering it weak." (Izala Auham, p. 93, vol. 1, printed by Munshi) Although Sahih Muslim itself is very authentic and Imam Bukhari's mere abandonment of a narration is not a proof of its weakness, on the contrary, this narration of Ibn Majah is weak and its clear explanation is present in Sahih Bukhari, but the Mirzais are repeatedly presenting it as their proof. The reason is obvious, if there is any authentic proof, it should be presented. If such a narration explicitly contains the belief of the end QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2003 Even if the prophethood had been refuted, it would not have been credible in a matter of continuous belief, and here is the matter that even if it is considered correct, it is merely a statement of a hypothesis that has no possibility of coming into existence. If this had been said in the life of Hazrat Ibrahim, then to some extent it could have been inferred that the series of prophethood would continue after him. Therefore, he had said something similar about Hazrat Umar in his lifetime. Since there could have been a suspicion of the continuation of prophethood, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) adopted a completely different interpretation there and eliminated this suspicion forever. He said: If there were a prophet after me, it would be Umar ibn al-Khattab (Reported by al-Tirmidhi) The meaning is that since the door of prophethood has been closed after me, Hazrat Umar cannot become a prophet. Similarly, on the occasion of the Battle of Tabuk, when he appointed Hazrat Ali as his deputy in Madinah, he said to him: Are you not pleased to be with me as Aaron was with Moses, except that there is no prophethood after me? (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim, and the wording is Muslim) Are you not pleased to be with me as Aaron was with Moses (when Moses took him as his deputy when he went to Mount Tur), but there is no prophethood after me. Here, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had merely compared Hazrat Ali to Hazrat Harun (peace be upon him) in terms of making him a deputy, but since there was a fear of misunderstanding against the end of prophethood, he immediately said, "Except that there is no prophethood after me," and put an end to this fear. However, since this was being said about Hazrat Ibrahim after his death and there was no possibility of him remaining alive, the words used were: 2004 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 If he had lived, he would have been a "Siddiq Nabi" (truthful prophet), but since he did not live, the question of him being a prophet does not arise. Therefore, it is just like in the Holy Quran where it says: "لو كان فيهما اله الا الله لفسلنا" (If there were gods other than Allah in the heavens and the earth, both would be ruined). It is obvious that this is merely a hypothesis, and if someone were to start arguing from this that, God forbid, the existence of gods besides Allah Almighty is possible in the universe, then what is this if not coercion? This was the entire universe of the Mirzais' "argument" from the collection of millions of Prophetic traditions, on the basis of which it is insisted that abandoning the clear verses of the Holy Quran, the hundreds of explicit and continuous traditions of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and the definitive consensus of the Muslim Ummah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad should be accepted as a prophet, or else your place is in Hell. An Ayat of the Holy Quran To impress the Muslims, it was also necessary that some support for Mirza Sahib's prophethood be sought from the Holy Quran, so that at least it could be said that an argument was made from the Quran as well. The verse of the Holy Quran that the Mirzais have found and brought forth for this purpose is this: وَمَنْ يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَ الرَّسُولَ فَأُولَئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَ الصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَ الصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَئِكَ رَفِيقاً - And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger - those will be with the ones upon whom Allah has bestowed favor - of the prophets, the steadfast affirmers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions. Read this verse again and again; can you see anywhere in it, even with a magnifying glass, that prophethood... Is the series ongoing? And can someone still become a prophet? But for a religion that can interpret "Damascus" as "Qadian," that sees Qadian mentioned in the Quran, and that can derive a meaning from " خاتم النبیین " (Seal of the Prophets) that leaves the door open for the crown of all prophethoods, it is no surprise that they can argue for the continuation of prophethood from this verse as well. This verse clearly states that one who obeys Allah and His Messenger will be in the company of prophets, the truthful, the martyrs, and the righteous in the Hereafter. But the Mirza'i gentlemen interpret it to mean that he himself will become a prophet. It is said that the word "مع" (with) has been used here, which can also be taken to mean that on that day, he will not only be with the group of prophets, etc., but will be included among them. But the person who has not completely closed his eyes to the words of the above verse can see that at the end of this very verse, it is stated: حسن اولئك رفيقا And excellent are those as companions. In this last sentence, the word " رفیق " (companion) has made it clear that even if "مع" could have some other meaning elsewhere, here there is no meaning other than becoming a companion, because the word " رفیق " is explicitly coming forward to explain it. Then, if (God forbid) the meaning was that every person could become a prophet by obeying Allah and the Messenger, was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the only one in the entire Ummah who obeyed Allah and the Messenger? And did no one else obey Allah and the Messenger? Whereas the Quran (God forbid) is saying that whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will be included in the ranks of the prophets. If this is called reasoning, then who knows what the distortion of the meaning of the Quran would be. RAHVAL MƏƏCİVİDLI UF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 العالمية الية بكم False References of Some Sufis Mirzai gentlemen find incomplete and vague references of some Sufis and present them in support of their self-made prophethood. Such false references presented by them have been answered by Muslims in an extremely reasoned and satisfactory manner and have been answered again and again. There is no need to repeat it here in detail, but it is necessary to point out a few fundamental facts. The Reality of the Sayings of the Predecessors in Religion First of all, it is worth mentioning that the original source of religion is the Holy Quran, the hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and the consensus of the Ummah, and the personal opinions of individuals cannot affect this issue, which has been clearly stated in these basic sources of religion. In particular, the fundamental belief like Prophethood can not be proved even by a single narration, let alone be proved by an individual writing. Therefore, in this matter, even if some individual writings are proved to be against the continuous clarifications of the Quran and Hadith and the consensus of the Ummah, they are absolutely out of the question and cannot be presented as arguments. Therefore, our purpose of interpreting and justifying the vague sentences of the Sufis from whom the Mirzai gentlemen try to take support is not at all that if, hypothetically, the meaning of their writings proves to be contradictory to the belief of the finality of Prophethood, then there is a danger of any damage to this strong and accepted belief. Rather, the real purpose of anyone who has presented the correct interpretation of their words is only to remove a false accusation against them, which is necessary in terms of justice and honesty. In other words, presenting the writings of these gentlemen as conflicting with the finality of Prophethood does not accuse the belief of the finality of Prophethood, but it accuses these elders. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2007 That is why, as far as the fundamental issues, beliefs, and practical commandments of religion are concerned, they are neither the subject of Sufism nor have the scholars of the Ummah considered the books of Sufism as a source or authority in these matters. Instead, the discussions on beliefs take place in the science of theology (Ilm-ul-Kalam), and the issues of practical commandments and laws are explained in the science of jurisprudence (Ilm-ul-Fiqh), and the books of these sciences are considered authentic in this matter. The Sufis themselves refer to the books of these sciences in these matters and clarify that it is not even permissible for a person who has not gone through the inner and psychological experiences of Sufism to look at these books. Sometimes such things are seen in these books which apparently do not make any sense, sometimes the meaning that is apparent seems completely contrary to reason. But the writer's intention is something else, such statements are called "ecstatic sayings (shatahat)". Therefore, using the books of Sufism as evidence in a matter of fundamental belief is a fundamental mistake that leads to nothing but misguidance. This principle has also been acknowledged by the great Sufis themselves. Hazrat Mujaddid Alf Thani (may God have mercy on him) is also an Imam of Sufism, but he writes: "So it is established that in proving the Sharia rulings, the Book (Quran) and Sunnah are valid, and the analogy of the Mujtahids (scholars) and the consensus of the Ummah are also affirming rulings. After these four primary sources of Sharia, no other evidence can affirm Sharia rulings - inspiration does not affirm permissibility or prohibition, and unveiling from the inner realm does not prove obligatory or recommended acts." (Maktubat Hissa Muallam Daftar Doam, page 15, Letter No. 55) In another place, while mentioning deriving theological issues from the "ecstatic sayings" of the Sufis, he writes: "Whether the speaker of those words is Sheikh Kabir Yamani or Sheikh Akbar Shami, the words of Muhammad Arabi and Alihi2008 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Also, Mirza Sahib writes: And whoever utters a word that has no correct basis in the Sharia, whether inspired or diligent in it, the devils are playing with him. (Mirror of the Perfection of Islam, p. 21, printed in Rabwah, authored in 1893) Therefore, how can it be correct for the Mirza'i gentlemen to abandon the clear verses of the Holy Quran and the continuous hadiths and argue from the sayings of a few Sufis? The Style of the Sufis The third fundamental point is that, according to the accepted principles of the world, the subject of every science and art, its purpose and aim, its reforms, and its experts are different, and accordingly, the style of expression of each science and art is also different. A person who is not an expert and experienced in a science and art sometimes becomes a victim of severe misunderstandings by reading the books of that art. If an ordinary person starts treating himself by reading medical science books, it can also lead to his destruction. The same is the case with Islamic sciences, that the function, its reforms, and its style of each of the sciences of Tafsir, Hadith, Fiqh, beliefs, and Sufism are completely different, and among them, the most accurate and complex expressions are found in those books that are written on Sufism and its philosophy. Because these books are related to inner experiences and those perceptions and states that occur to the Sufis during their occupations instead of theories and outward actions, and it is difficult to express them through known words. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2009 Therefore, whatever has been said in the explanation of the words of these gentlemen is not a defense of the belief in the finality of prophethood, but a defense of these elders. Therefore, it is beyond our topic of discussion. [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali)] Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The Reality of the Sayings of the Predecessors in the Mirza'i Religion The second point is that the Mirza'i gentlemen, according to their religion, do not have the right in any way to argue from the sayings of these elders. Because there are many matters in which they have not considered the consensus of the Ummah to be correct, but have even refused to accept it as a Sharia argument. Therefore, while refuting the belief in the descent of Christ, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib writes: "While there is a possibility of error even for the prophets themselves in understanding the prophecies, then what is the blind agreement or consensus of the Ummah?" (Izala-e-Auham, Second Edition, p. 1, 1903) And further writes: "I say again that in this matter, the general opinion of Muslims, even if it includes saints, cannot be infallible in the name of consensus." (Reference above, p. 72, vol. 1) And when this is the state of consensus, then the status of the individual sayings of the predecessors becomes clear by itself. Therefore, Mirza Sahib writes: "And the sayings of the predecessors and successors are not in fact an independent argument, and in the event of their disagreement, that group will be on the right whose opinion is in accordance with the Holy Quran." (Izala-e-Auham, Second Edition, 1903, p. 229, Part II) 2010 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 We need prayers and peace, not the words of Muhyiddin Ibn Arabi, Sadruddin Qunawi, and Abdul Razzaq Kashi. We need the text, not the story. The conquests of Medina have made us independent of the conquests of Mecca. Whether these things were said by Sheikh Kabir Yamani or Sheikh Akbar Shami, we want the words of Muhammad Arabi (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), not the words of Muhyiddin Ibn Arabi, Sadruddin Qunawi, and Abdul Razzaq Kashi. We are concerned with the text (i.e., the Quran and Hadith), not the story (this refers to Ibn Arabi's "Khusoos al-Hikam"). The conquests of Medina have made us independent of the conquests of Mecca." (Letters, Part One, Book One, Letter No. 10) After these three fundamental points, in this fundamental issue of beliefs, which according to the Quran, Hadith, and consensus of the Ummah is a matter of disbelief and Islam, arguing from the books of Sufis is completely out of the question, and even if, hypothetically, some Sufis are proven to have said such ecstatic utterances, it does not diminish the certainty and strength of the belief in the finality of prophethood in the slightest. However, it is true that the Sufis who have been accused of believing in the continuation of non-legislative prophethood, are accused of something that is based on ignorance of their reforms and expressive style. If we were to provide a correct explanation of their words here, it would require a lengthy essay, and since in light of our above submissions, this is not about the belief in the finality of prophethood but rather a defense of those elders, it is also outside of our topic. But here, some of the explicit statements of these individuals are quoted, which make it clear that they, like the entire Ummah, have a firm belief in the doctrine of the finality of prophethood. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2011 Mirza's blatant distortion in the words of Mujaddid Alif Thani In this connection, first observe the impudence and audacity of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, that in order to prove his prophethood, he has quoted a statement of Mujaddid Alif Thani, and has added a word to it himself. He writes: "The thing is, as Mujaddid Sahib Sirhindi has written in his letters that although some individuals of this Ummah are specified for divine discourse and communication, and will remain so until the Day of Judgment. But the person who is honored with this discourse and communication in abundance, and on whom many unseen matters are revealed, is called a prophet." (Haqiqatul Wahi, p. 390, printed in 1997) Whereas the statement of Hazrat Mujaddid Sahib to which Mirza Sahib has referred is this: "And when this type of speech from Allah becomes frequent with one of them, he is called a 'Muhaddath'." (Maktoobat, Vol. II, p. 99) Observe how Mirza Sahib has replaced the word "Muhaddath" in the statement of Hazrat Mujaddid Sahib with the word "Prophet." Muhammad Ali Lahori Sahib, while acknowledging this, writes: "When we look at the letters of Mujaddid Sahib Sirhindi, we do not find there that the one who receives abundant discourse and communication is called a prophet. Rather, the word there is 'Muhaddath'." (Al-Nubuwwah fil Islam, p. 1248, Lahore, second edition) Then, further explaining this explicit betrayal, he writes that in reality, Mirza Sahib has used the word "Prophet" here in the meaning of "Muhaddath" and: TANI LAKIN August 15, 1974 "If this attention is not accepted, then this accusation will be made against Hazrat-e-Maud (the Promised One) that you have, God forbid, distorted the words of Mujaddid Sahib for your own purposes." (Al Wasiyyat fi Inna Salama by Muhammad Ali Lahori, p. 238) Even if Mirza Sahib himself used the word "Nabi" (Prophet) in his speech in the meaning of "Muhaddith" (Reformer), there would have been a point. By forcibly attributing the word "Nabi" to Hazrat Mujaddid Sahib and declaring it to mean "Muhaddith," according to which Sharia, which religion, and which reason is this permissible? It is astonishing at the intellects of those people who see such blatant betrayals in Mirza Sahib's words, and still insist on declaring him a Prophet, the Promised Messiah, and a Reformer. Mulla Ali Qari The other elder to whom it is attributed that he considers any kind of Prophethood permissible against the finality of Prophethood is Mulla Ali Qari. But observe his following statement: "This type of challenge is a branch of the claim of Prophethood, and claiming Prophethood after our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is disbelief by consensus." (Mulamma'at Sharh Niqda Seer, p. 201) This statement Mulla Ali Qari has written about a person who is merely claiming to be superior to another in miracles. It is evident from this that the discussion here is purely about non-legislative Prophethood, and even claiming that has been declared disbelief by Mulla Ali Qari. QADIAN ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2013 Sheikh Ibn Arabi and Sheikh Sha'rani This thing is specifically attributed to Sheikh Muhiuddin Ibn Arabi with great enthusiasm That he believes in two non-legislative prophethoods, but note his following statement: "After the end of prophethood, only knowledge remains for the saints of Allah. And the doors of divine commands and prohibitions are closed. Now every person who claims this In fact, he is a claimant of Sharia, whether his inspiration is in accordance with our Sharia or Opponent" (Fatuhat Makkiyah, vol. 3, p. 51) This statement has made it clear that: (1) According to Sheikh Akbar, the claimant of Sharia is not only the one who brings new rulings after the Sharia of Muhammad, but also the claimant of prophethood, according to him, is the claimant of Sharia whose revelation is completely Be in accordance with the Sharia of Muhammad. (2) After the Holy Prophet, just as the claim of a new Sharia is a denial of the end of prophethood. The claim of revelation in accordance with the Sharia of Muhammad is also a denial of the end of prophethood. (3) According to Sheikh Akbar, legislative prophethood means that prophethood which Sharia calls prophethood, whether that Prophethood is naked of a new Sharia and whether it claims to be in accordance with the Sharia of Muhammad, so Non-legislative prophethood will mean those perfections of prophethood and perfections of sainthood on which Sharia 2014 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug, 1974 does not apply to prophethood, and it is not called prophethood. Arif Billah Imam Sharani, while quoting the above passage of Sheikh Akbar in "Al-Yawaqit wal Jawahar," has also quoted these words with it: فان كان مكلفاً ضربنا عنقه والا ضربنا عنه صفحاً (اليواقيت الدوس ۳۸۰) If that person is responsible, i.e., sane and adult, then his killing is obligatory on us. Otherwise, ignore him. A Member: Mr. Speaker! Today is Friday. Mr. Chairman: Read a chapter on the enmity of Mirzaiat against Islam, which is six pages long. A Member: It is half past twelve. Mr. Chairman: It will only take ten minutes. A Member: Do it in the evening. Mr. Chairman: In the evening you say morning, and in the morning you say evening. Give me some time too. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Let's do it quickly. Mr. Chairman: Yes, there are six pages. You will then go out again on the seventh. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2015 Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Anti-Islam nature of Mirzaiism * * * Colonial and imperial role Abrogation of Jihad Betrayal of the Islamic world Undivided India Political ambitions, plans, and activities 2016 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 We have stated in our resolution that His efforts to end Jihad were a major betrayal of the commandments of Islam, and that he was a product of imperialism, and his sole mission was to destroy the unity of Muslims and to deny Islam. Also, their followers, whatever name is given to them, by mingling with Muslims and pretending to be a sect of Islam, are internally and externally engaged in subversive activities. Its explanation is presented on the following pages. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2017 In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Political Background Our resolution presented in the National Assembly on June 30 also mentions Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's efforts to end Jihad, and that he was a product of imperialism and his sole purpose was to destroy the unity of Muslims, and that the Mirzais, whatever name they are given, are engaged in subversive activities internally and externally under the guise of being a sect of Islam. We will review the following four points in the light of Mirzai writings and their activities and intentions: (a) Mirzait is a product of imperialist and colonial aims and intentions. (b) To achieve these goals, he declared Jihad not only in India but throughout the Islamic world as absolutely forbidden, illegitimate, and abrogated. (c) To scatter and destroy the unity and cohesion of the Muslim Ummah. (d) Subversive and espionage activities throughout the Islamic world and Pakistan. European Colonialism and Mirzait The first point, that Mirza Sahib and his followers are instruments of European colonialism, is an open secret that not only Mirza Qadiani admits but also proudly proclaims in every writing and work of his. Without hesitation, he calls himself a plant cultivated by the British, a family loyalist, and the British Empire as his benefactor and blessing. 2018 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 ...consider obedience to God and the British as a sacred religious duty. On the other hand, the British authorities and imperialism also heartily appreciate their loyalty. Now, it remains to be seen how Europe and Britain continued to use Mirza for their colonial and anti-Islam purposes. The late Eighteenth Century and European Colonialism It was in the latter half of the eighteenth century AD that European imperialism attacked most parts of the world with its colonial ambitions. Among these imperial powers, Britain was at the forefront, with Italian, French, and Portuguese powers dividing the continent of Africa into Italian Somaliland, French Somaliland, Portuguese East Africa, German East Africa, and British East Africa, and then engaging in imperial intrigues in some parts of the Middle East. Italy colonized Eritrea, France colonized the island of Madagascar, and Britain colonized Rhodesia and Uganda. The so-called autonomous regions included the Union of South Africa, as well as Egypt, Abyssinia, and Liberia. European imperialism had begun a struggle to bring India, Burma, and Lanka under its sway during that time and had made the Indian Ocean a hub of its colonial activities. On the eastern coast, Singapore was an important naval base, which could be used as a base to separate the Indian Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the Dutch East Indies, and South Australasia. Colonial powers found it easier to formulate their nefarious intentions when the construction of the Suez Canal was completed in 1769. This allowed them to take the easy route through the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba instead of taking the long route around the Cape of Good Hope. By 1878, Britain had brought Gibraltar and Malta under its influence and had established control over Cyprus; Aden had been subjugated in 1839, and now all that remained was to occupy the entire southwestern Asia. The English and the Subcontinent When the English began to establish their oppressive power in the subcontinent and the Islamic world, two things became obstacles in their path. One was the Muslims' ideological unity, unwavering adherence to religious beliefs, and the Muslims' concept of brotherhood, which had united the West and the East into one body. The second thing was the Muslims' immortal spirit of Jihad, which, especially after the Crusades, had become a bane for Christian Europe. And today, it was proving to be a stumbling block at every step for their imperialistic plans. And it was this spirit of Jihad that was acting as a fortress and castle for the survival and safety of the Muslim nation. The English Empire was not unaware of these things, so through its famous devilish policy of DIVIDE AND RULE, it wanted to fragment the geographical and ideological unity of the Islamic world. On the other hand, with great cunning, it tried to create intellectual chaos and indecision among Muslims by stirring up debates and discussions, especially in the subcontinent. At the same time, the heroic activities of Sultan Tipu Shaheed, Syed Ahmad Shah Shaheed, and Shah Ismail Shaheed against the English, and after them, the Mujahideen movement, the fatwa of Jihad by the scholars of truth declaring India as Dar al-Harb, and finally, the Jihad of Independence of 1857, not only in India but also in the outside Islamic world, the Mujahideen movements against Western colonialism made it even clearer that as long as the spirit of Jihad remains within Muslims, imperialism will never be able to firmly establish its foothold anywhere. This thing of the Muslims had become a bane for Europe not only in India but all over the world. Mirza Sahib's Period of Development and the State of the Islamic World The latter half of the nineteenth century, which is Mirza Sahib's era of development, most Islamic countries had become the center of Islamic Jihad and the spirit of freedom. The conditions of the subcontinent are briefly known. We see that this is the time when in the neighboring country of Afghanistan, outside the subcontinent, in 1878-79, the British forces had to face the spirit of Jihad and fervor of the Afghans, which ultimately ended in the defeat and retreat of the British. In Turkey, from 1876 to 1878, seeing the secret conspiracies and behind-the-scenes agreements of the British, the spirit of Jihad flared up. In Tripoli, Sheikh Saqoos, in Algeria, Amir Abdul Qadir (1880), and in the Dagestan region of Russia, Sheikh Muhammad Shamil (1870) bravely and devotedly challenged the French and Russian colonialists. In 1881, Egyptian Muslims in Egypt, ready to die, resisted the British. When the British nation wanted to establish a foothold in Sudan, in 1881, Mahdi Sudanese and his dervishes raised the banner of Jihad and eventually eliminated the British General Gordon and his army. During the same period, in the Arabian Gulf, Bahrain, Aden, etc., the British forces faced the spirit of Muslims' Jihad and self-sacrifice for the liberation of their homeland. While mentioning the reasons for these successes of the Muslims, a British author writes that the religious activity among the Muslims was also working. They used to say that if they won, they would be called Ghazi; if they gained power, or died, they would be called martyrs. Therefore, it is better to die or kill than to show their backs. (History of British India 302, published in 1935) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2021 The Need for an Apostle Prophet There is a British document, "The Arrival of British Empire in India," and all external evidence also supports it, that in 1869, a delegation of British intellectuals and Christian leaders from England came to the subcontinent to review the strategy of subduing Muslims and to consider ways to elicit loyalty to the British Empire. In 1870, the delegation presented two reports stating that the majority of Indian Muslims blindly follow their spiritual leaders. If we could find someone at this time who claims to be an Apostolic Prophet, many people would gather around him. However, it seems difficult to encourage such a person among Muslims. If this problem is solved, then the prophethood of such a person can be nurtured well under the patronage of the government. Now that we control all of India, we need this kind of action to fuel the internal anxiety and mutual discord of the Indian public and the Muslim populace. (THE ARRIVAL OF BRITISH EMPIRE IN INDIA) (Referenced in "Bhi Israel," p. 19) Imperial Needs, Mirza Sahib and His Family This was the environment and these were the imperial needs that were fulfilled by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim of prophethood and the announcement of the abrogation of Jihad. According to Allama Iqbal, these were the circumstances that made the Qadiani movement appear as an inspired certificate in favor of British occupation. (Sirf Iqbal, p. 135) The British could not have found a more suitable person than Mirza Ghulam Ahmad for their purposes. This is because support for infidels and animosity towards Muslims, he had received in his family heritage. 2022 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Mirza's father, Ghulam Murtaza, along with his brothers, joined the army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and Rendered valuable services for the Sikhs. First fought with the Muslims along with the Sikhs, in return for which In return, Ranjit Singh released some property to them. It is in the biography of Mirza Sahib that in 1842 his father was made a commander of an infantry and Sent to Peshawar and in the mischief of Hazara (ie Jihad of Syed Ahmad Shaheed and Mujahideen) he Performed outstanding feats (next) that it is loyal to the Thai government, the rebellion of 1848 His brother Ghulam Muhi-ud-Din (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's uncle) also did well with him. Performed well, these people fought the Sikh rebels and defeated them badly. Seerat Masih Maud 23 times Mirza Bashiruddin Maud published by Allah Bakhsh Muslim Press Qadian) In the Jihad of Independence of 1857, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's father, Mirza Ghulam Murtaza, acknowledged the right of the British. Paid the salt in such a way that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself admitted that: I belong to a family that is a staunch well-wisher of this government. My father Mirza Ghulam Murtaza was a loyal and well-wisher in the eyes of the government. Who got a chair in the Governor's court Who is mentioned in Mr. Griffin's History of the Chiefs of Punjab and In 1857, he gave assistance to the British government beyond his power.” That is, by providing fifty horsemen and horses, he helped the British government at the time of the rebellion. Given. (Advertisement Wajib Al-Azhar Maslak Kitab Al-Breez 3 by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad). After that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's The letters written by the English rulers to the father and brother Ghulam Qadir in order to express their pleasure and acknowledge their services Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has also mentioned these letters in the above-mentioned book. Mr. Wilson wrote to his father, Mirza Ghulam Murtaza: I know very well that you and your family are undoubtedly devoted to the English government. And a loyal and steadfast servant." (Letter Arjun 1949 and Lahore Correspondence p. 353 Reference Ballas (4) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2023 Mr. Robert Cust, Commissioner of Lahore, in his letters to Mirza Ghulam Murtaza dated September 20, 1885, informs him of the acknowledgment of his services to the British in the 1857 War of Independence and the reward of robes of honor and goodwill in return. This family loyalty was ingrained in him, and he has confessed his loyalties in this way. Mirza Sahib writes in Sitara-e-Qaisarah: "The service that I have rendered to the British government is that I have published nearly fifty thousand books and pamphlets in this country and in other Islamic countries with the subject matter that the British government is a benefactor to us Muslims, therefore it should be the duty of every Muslim to obey this government sincerely and be grateful to this state from the heart and pray for it. And I have compiled these books in different languages, namely Urdu, Persian, Arabic, and spread them in all the countries of Islam, and even in the two holy cities of Islam, Mecca and Medina, I have happily published them. And I have spread them as much as possible in Constantinople, the capital of Rome, and in the countries of Syria, Egypt, Kabul, and the scattered cities of Afghanistan, as a result of which millions of people have abandoned the vile ideas of Jihad that were in their hearts due to the teachings of ignorant mullahs. Such a service has been rendered by me that I am proud that no Muslim among all the Muslims of British India can show its equal." (Sitara-e-Qaisarah, p. 273, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani) Not only this, but according to his own statement, the person who performed such unparalleled service in the entire British India wrote so much about English obedience that fifty cupboards could be filled with it. (Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, p. 15, printed 1904) 2024 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Mirza Sahib, in a letter to the Lieutenant Governor of Punjab regarding the British government, writes that his family has been loyal and devoted for fifty years and that he himself is a plant cultivated by the English, and he pleads for special attention for himself and his party by appealing to these loyalties and sincerity. (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Vol. J, Majmua Ishtiharat Mirza Qadiani, p. 190) Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. We meet at 5.30 p.m. [The Special Committee adjourned for lunch break to meet at 5.30 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after lunch break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Maulana Mufti Mahmud! Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: If he is a devotee of Pharaoh's power in secret, For the nation, that "Kalim Ullahi" is a curse. Iqbal: Zarb-e-Kaleem QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2025 The Abrogation of Jihad, a Definite Belief of Islam These acts of loyalty to the British resulted in Mirza Qadiani openly declaring the annulment of Jihad. Jihad is a sacred religious duty in Islam, and the survival of Islam and Muslims depends on it. The Sharia of Muhammad (peace be upon him) has made it a means of protecting Islam and the Muslim world, and of proclaiming the word of Allah until the Day of Judgment. Countless verses of the Holy Quran and countless hadiths of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and the practical life of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and the Companions, their passion for Jihad and martyrdom – all these things made Jihad an inspiring act of worship for Muslims in every era. The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) clearly stated: "And fight them until there is no fitnah (disbelief and evil) and the religion is for Allah." In another hadith, the Prophet (peace be upon him) expressed the eternity of the duty of Jihad until the Day of Judgment in this way: "This religion will always remain قائم (established), a group of Muslims will fight for it until the Hour (Day of Judgment) is established." (Muslim and Mishkat, p. 230) Translation: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "This religion will always remain established, and a group of Muslims will continue to perform Jihad until the Day of Judgment." However, for the sake of protecting the British and keeping the Muslim world in their bondage forever, and to make Muslims victims of their political and religious conspiracies under the rule of infidel governments, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad vehemently opposed the belief of Jihad. And not only in the subcontinent but throughout the Muslim world, wherever he had the opportunity for open and secret activities, he vehemently propagated against Jihad. What was the need for Mirza Sahib to make Jihad haram (forbidden)? The answer to this... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 We can find a very clear address of the Qadiani community to Lord Reading, Viceroy of India, in the newspaper Al-Fazl, Qadian, dated July 4, 1921, in which it is stated: "At the time when you (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) made the claim, the entire Islamic world was resonating with the ideas of Jihad. And the condition of the Islamic world was such that it only needed a matchstick to ignite like a petrol wick. But this series started such a strong movement against the futility of this idea and against it being un-Islamic and against peace, that not many years had passed when the government had to admit in its heart that the series which it was considering a threat to peace, was a cause of extraordinary assistance for it." (Reference above) Mirza Sahib emphasizes with great intensity that Jihad is abolished and the order of Jihad is lifted from the world until the Day of Judgment. Their extent can be estimated from their following statements. In his book Arba'een No. 5, on page 15, in the footnote, Mirza Sahib writes: "The severity of Jihad, i.e., religious wars, has been gradually reduced by God Almighty. At the time of Hazrat Musa, there was so much permission that even believing did not save one from it, and even infants were killed. Then, at the time of our Prophet (peace be upon him), the killing of children, the elderly, and women was forbidden, and then for some nations, instead of faith, only paying Jizya was accepted to escape accountability, and then at the time of the Promised Messiah (i.e., Mirza Sahib, according to his belief), the order of Jihad was completely suspended." (From Qadiani religion, 25th chapter, No. 4, heading No. 37) I seek refuge in God! What a blatant slander this is against a chosen Prophet, Hazrat Musa. If believers and infants had to be killed, then Pharaoh and his... Mirza Sahib presented this in such a way as if even those infants who brought faith did not have the option of being sold in the Sharia of Moses. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2041 He writes on page 28: "From today, the human Jihad that was done with the sword has been stopped by the command of God. Now after this, whoever raises a sword on a disbeliever and calls himself Ghazi, he is disobeying the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, who said thirteen hundred years ago that all sword Jihad will end upon the arrival of the Promised Messiah. So now, after my advent, there is no sword Jihad. From our side, the white flag of peace and reconciliation has been raised." In the supplement "Tohfa Golarviyah," on page 39, this announcement of Mirza Sahib is recorded: (Alfa) Now abandon the thought of Jihad, O friends; war and fighting are now forbidden for the sake of religion. Now the true Imam of religion has come; now is the end of all religious wars. Now the light of God is descending from the sky; now the decree of war and Jihad is futile. He is an enemy of God who now engages in Jihad; he is a denier of the Prophet who holds this belief. (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 9, Page 226) Also, in a submission to the British government that was published in "Review of Religions," May 1902, page 498, number 12, Mirza Sahib writes: "This is the sect (i.e., Mirza Sahib's own sect) that is trying day and night to remove the absurd custom of Jihad from the minds of Muslims." (From Qadiani Mazhab, pages 537, 538) Mirza Sahib writes on page 14 of the pamphlet "The British Government and Jihad": "Look, I (Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani) have come to you with a command, which is that from now on, sword Jihad is abolished." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 It is clear from all these statements that, according to Mirza Sahib, the order against Jihad is not a requirement of compulsions due to special circumstances, but now it should be considered forever repealed, forbidden, and finished. There is no need to wait for its conditions to be fulfilled, and its teaching is not permissible even in any hidden way. He writes in Tiryaq-ul-Quloob, page 322: "There is absolutely no sword Jihad in this sect (Mirzaiyyat). Nor is there any waiting for it. Rather, this blessed sect considers it absolutely impermissible to teach Jihad neither openly nor secretly, and it absolutely considers it forbidden to wage wars for the propagation of religion." "From now on, earthly Jihad is stopped and wars have ended." (Supplement to Khutba Ilhamia, printed Rabwah Mirza Qadiani) "So from today, fighting for religion is forbidden." (Ibid.) The Reality of Mirzai Interpretations Despite these clear statements about Jihad, both groups of Mirzais today say that since the British Empire was established after 1857 and the means of Jihad were lost, therefore Jihad was temporarily suspended. Let us examine this interpretation and Mirza's false advocacy. (1) A fair-minded person can easily guess from the previous few statements that Mirza Sahib's prohibition of Jihad is not a temporary order. Nor is it suspended for some time Rather, he completely abolishes Jihad, negates even waiting for it, and considers any kind of teaching, whether open or secret, to be impermissible, and forbids and repeals fighting for religion forever. (B) If Mirza Sahib was forced to give up Jihad due to the establishment of the British Empire after 1857, GAR VS. UMMAH QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION oppose it. Then, in '57, and even before that, immediately after the arrival of the East India Company, Mirza Sahib and his entire family were sacrificing their lives and wealth to pave the way for the Sikhs and English colonialism in the Jihad of Mujahideen Syed Ahmed Shaheed. Mirza Sahib proudly acknowledged this in letters and notes to English officials, and not only supported these efforts but also appreciated them. Their ancestors supported the Sikhs in the Muslims' jihad against the Sikhs. Mirza's father provided fifty horsemen to aid the English government in '57. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad called the zealous and devoted Mujahideen of the 1857 War of Independence ignorant and immoral. (Barahin Ahmadiyya, Vol. I, p. Alif, appeal to Islamic associations) Every particle of the Hindu was in tears over the oppression of Muslims in India at the hands of the English. The glories of Islamic India were being looted. The thousand-year-old glory was being shattered. Scholars and nobles of India were being sewn into pigskins and burned alive, and hanged in the squares of Delhi. And the cruel-hearted representative of the English, General Nicholson, was demanding such constitutional powers from Edward that the skins of the freedom fighters could be flayed alive. And they could be burned alive. But that cruel and tyrant Nicholson considered Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his family to be the guardians and loyalists of their interests in India. General Nicholson gave Mirza Ghulam Qadir a certificate stating that in 1857, the Qadian family of Gurdaspur district was more loyal than all other families (Seerat Masih Maud, p. 4, by Mirza Bashir ud-Din Mahmood, published by Qadian). And the same Mirza Sahib, who had not yet come forward as his legislative prophet capacity. And had himself acknowledged in Barahin Ahmadiyya and other writings that jihad was obligatory, necessary, and uninterrupted. After claiming prophethood, one Practically, by declaring definitive decrees as forbidden, he proves himself to be a legislative prophet by abrogating all the verses of the Holy Quran about Jihad, excitement, and conquest. But in the era in which Mirza Sahib calls Jihad obligatory, did he himself practically adhere to it? The answer to this we find in a letter to the English Lieutenant Governor. In this request, he reveals his true reality in such clear words. [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi)] Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: "From my early age until now (that is, from 1839 until the time before 1900, when I reached the age of about sixty), I have been engaged in this important work with my tongue and pen, so that I may turn the hearts of Muslims towards true love, goodwill, and sympathy for the British Government, and remove from the hearts of those of little understanding the false notion of Jihad etc., which prevents their heartfelt purity and sincere relations." (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Vol. 9, p. 10, printed at Qadian Press, Qadian, August 1922) The third point is that, assuming we concede that Mirza Sahib opposed Jihad with such intensity due to certain compulsions because of the British rule in the subcontinent. But if this were the reality, then Mirza Sahib's prohibition of Jihad and preaching of obedience to the British would have been limited only to British India, but here there is such open evidence and definitive proof that the real motive of Mirza Sahib's movement and preaching was to eradicate the spirit of Jihad not only from India but from the entire Islamic world and the hearts of Muslims all over the world, and to create paths for the British or any... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2031 was also to pave the way for a disbelieving empire. So that in this way, in the name of a new community and a new prophet, the entire Muslim community and the Ummah of Muhammad would be disrupted. And the entire Islamic world would be brought to the feet of the British or their caliphs, so Mirza Sahib did not limit the preaching of opposition to Jihad to British India only. And he did not only suffice with Urdu lectures, but by writing literature in Persian, Arabic, and English, he spread it to the lands of Rome, Syria, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Bukhara, even Mecca and Medina, so that if the armies of the Tsar of Russia came to Bukhara, no Muslim would raise a hand to resist. If France, Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco are invaded, Muslims should consider Jihad as forbidden. The Arabs and Egyptians should become obedient to the British with heart and soul. And the religious zeal of the Turks and Afghans should be emptied of the spirit of Jihad and become cold forever. In this regard, see the confessions of Mirza Sahib, he writes: "I have not only done so much work that I have inclined the Muslims of British India towards the true obedience of the Government of England, but I have also compiled many books in Arabic, Persian, and Urdu and made the people of Islamic countries obedient." (Tabligh Risalat vol. 6 in the name of the Lieutenant Governor p. 10) He writes on page 7 of this book: "Contrary to the hidden thoughts of these naive Muslims, thousands of advertisements were published for heartfelt gratitude to the English Government. And such books were delivered to the lands of Arabia and Syria, etc." After that, I compiled some treatises in Arabic and Persian and sent them to the surrounding areas of the lands of Syria, Rome, Egypt and Bukhara, etc. And in them, I mentioned the commendable qualities of this government and made it clear that Jihad with this benefactor government is absolutely forbidden. And he gave those 2032 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 He sent books to the lands of Syria and Rome. Some Arabs were sent to Mecca and Medina. Some were sent to the lands of Persia. And similarly, books were also sent to Egypt, and this was an expense of thousands of rupees, which was done with good intentions." And Mirza Sahib did all this so that: (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume II, page 199) So that some temperaments may come to the right path with these advices. And those temperaments To be thankful to this government and to be obedient to it and (Noor-ul-Haq, Part I, pp. 32-33) The troubles of the mischief-makers may be reduced. In Tabligh-e-Risalat, Vol. 6, p. 69, the result of all this struggle, in the words of Mirza Sahib, is: "I am sure that as my followers increase, Likewise, the believers of the issue of Jihad will decrease. Because accepting me as the Messiah and Mahdi It denies the issue of Jihad. In Supplement to the English Government and Jihad, it is written: "Whoever pledges allegiance to me and accepts me as the Promised Messiah, from that day on he He has to believe that Jihad is absolutely forbidden in this era because the Messiah is your special Especially with regard to my teachings, he has to be a true well-wisher of this English government. The fact that what were the motives and purposes of the Mirza'i preaching and all the efforts. Mirza'i The above-mentioned sayings of the founder of the religion are self-evident. Even if this fact is hidden behind the veils of interpretation, the following facts and confessions are sufficient to open the eyes: That Mirza Sahib not only in India but also in independent Islamic countries QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION They were not tolerant of any kind of Jihad. During the reign of Amir Amanullah Khan of Afghanistan, Nematullah Khan Mirzai and Abdul Latif Mirzai were declared apostates by the unanimous fatwa of the scholars of Afghanistan and were killed. The motives for this murder were that these people, under the guise of preachers, were teaching against Jihad. And this was merely so that the power of the British would prevail. Whereas, the conditions for Islamic Jihad were fully present in Afghanistan. In this regard, see the Friday sermon of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad in Al-Fazl, dated August 6, 1935: After a long time, I accidentally found a book in a library that had been printed and become rare. The author of this book was an Italian engineer who held a responsible position in Afghanistan. He writes that Sahibzada Abdul Latif (Qadiani) was martyred because he was teaching against Jihad, so the government of Afghanistan feared that this would weaken the spirit of freedom of the Afghans and the power of the British would prevail over them. With the narration of such a credible narrator, it is proven that if Sahibzada Abdul Latif had remained silent and had not said a word against Jihad, the government of Afghanistan would not have felt the need to martyr him. Al-Fazl newspaper, quoting Aman Afghan, dated March 3, 1925, quoted the following statement from the Minister of Interior of the Afghan government: "Two persons from Kabul, Mullah Abdul Halim and Mullah Noor Ali, shopkeepers, had become adherents of Qadiani beliefs. And by instilling this belief in people, they were leading them astray. Another lawsuit had been filed against them for a long time. And conspiratorial letters from foreign people against the interests of the Afghan kingdom were seized from their possession. 2033 2034 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 were found from which it is found that they had been sold to the enemies of Afghanistan." The Khalifa of Qadian, in his Friday sermon recorded in Akhbar Al-Fazl dated November 1, 1934, admits that not only Muslim countries but also non-Muslim countries and nations considered the Mirzais as instruments. The world considers us agents of the British, so when a German Englishman attended the opening ceremony of the Ahmadiyya building in Cyprus, the government demanded an answer from him as to why you attended an event of a group that is an agent of the British. Islamic Jihad is Abrogated, but Mirzai Jihad is Permissible - It is a matter of wonder and surprise that on the one hand, the Qadianis have so vehemently declared Jihad to be abrogated and forbidden, but on the other hand, joining the British army and fighting with Muslims was not only permissible but also necessary for them. It seems that all this struggle of prohibiting Jihad was only to prevent Muslims from Jihad with the British and infidels, so that they should neither fight for their honor and dignity nor for the survival of the country and nation, nor raise the banner of Jihad for their Islamic religious symbols, treaties and mosques, but to promote and protect British rule. Joining their armies and bombing Islamic countries was a sacred duty. Mirza Mahmood Ahmad said: "To establish truth and to repel those oppressive obstacles by joining the government's army and helping the government is the religious duty of the Ahmadis." (Letter to Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Al-Fazl dated 1919) The Qadiani community, while mentioning their war services in their address to Lord Reading, also said that in the war with Kabul, our community, in addition to all kinds of help, provided a deal company and "QADIANI ISSUE" GENERAL DISCUSSION 2433 A thousand people were presented for recruitment, and the younger brother of our current Imam volunteered in the transport corps for six months. (Al-Fadl, 1st July 1931) In another Friday sermon, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad said that perhaps we might have to engage in Jihad with Kabul at some point. (Further on he said) So we do not know when we will be entrusted with the charge of the world by God. We should be prepared from our side to manage the world. (Al-Fadl, 37 / February 2 - March 1922) The real features of the Mirzais, who consider the Islamic concept of peace and Jihad to be the brutal and ignorant absurdities of the Mullahs, become even more apparent from these words of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, the second Caliph. He said that times have changed; see, the Jesus (Hazrat Isa) who came before was crucified by his enemies, but now the Messiah has come to put his opponents to death. (Irfan-un-Nabi, p. 94) "The Jews crucified the previous Jesus, but now (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) will hang the Jewish-natured people of this era." (Taqdeer-un-Nabi, p. 29, Author Mirza Anwaar Ahmad) From this, it is understood that after declaring the concept of Jihad in Islam as abrogated and propagandizing against it throughout the Islamic world, what all was not being done to justify Jihad and fighting for themselves and for imperialistic purposes. Keeping all these things in mind, we come to the conclusion that according to the Mirzais, it was forbidden forever for Muslims to fight against infidels or even against themselves, but Jihad and fighting under the banner of Christianity or in the interest of any infidel government or for the Mirzais themselves is all permissible. The Truth About Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and the Missionary Services of the Mirzais The colonial activities of the Qadianis in Afghanistan and other Islamic countries in the name of preaching expose their services to preaching Islam. However, many people mention Mirza Sahib's services regarding his defensive debates and scholarly efforts in the defense of Islam. It is said that he made great efforts in defending Islam against the Arya Samaj and Christians, and even now, Qadianis are preaching Islam around the world, so they should not be treated like non-Muslims. Therefore, we want to dispel this misunderstanding, in which educated people are also generally involved, with just one or two statements by Mirza Sahib, which beautifully reveal the missionary purposes and intentions of the founder of Qadianism himself. He felt the danger of a passionate reaction against the British among Muslims due to the provocative writings of Christian missionaries and their aggressive attacks on Islam. Therefore, to suppress this general enthusiasm, he strategically responded to Christians with some strictness and wrote harsh books against them. In "Tiryaq-ul-Qulub," published by Zia-ul-Islam Qadian on October 28, 1902, in Supplement 3 titled "A Humble Request to the Exalted Government," Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, after summarizing all his scholarly and literary endeavors of ninety years, removing the beliefs of Jihad and the bloody Mahdi from the hearts of Muslims, and creating loyalty to the British, writes: Now I can boldly say to my benefactor government that this is my twenty-year service, the like of which no Islamic family can present in British India. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION It is also clear that one cannot do this; to continuously emphasize the aforementioned teaching for such a long period, which is a period of twenty years, is not the work of a hypocrite or a selfish person, but the work of someone who has genuine goodwill for this government. Yes, I confess that I used to debate with people of other religions with good intentions when the writings of some priests and Christian missionaries became very harsh and exceeded the limits of moderation, and especially in the newspaper "Noor Afshan," which is a Christian newspaper published from Ludhiana, very dirty writings were published, and those preachers used such words about our Prophet (peace be upon him), God forbid, that he was a robber, a thief, an adulterer, and it was published in hundreds of leaflets that he was lustfully in love with his daughter and, despite all this, he was a liar, and looting and bloodshed was his job. Then, after reading such books and newspapers, I had this fear in my heart that those words might have a severe inflammatory effect on the hearts of Muslims, who are a passionate nation. Then, to cool down those passions, with my true and pure intention, I thought it appropriate that the strategy to divert this general passion is to respond to those writings with some severity so that the passions of quick-tempered people subside and no unrest occurs in the country. Then, in response to such books in which extreme harsh language was used, I wrote some books in which there was corresponding harshness because my conscience absolutely gave me the fatwa that this method would be sufficient to extinguish the fire of the anger and wrath of the many savagely passionate people in Islam. (pp. 308-309) 2037 2038 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 After a few lines, he writes: "So, what happened to me in the face of the priests is this, that some savage Muslims were pleased with strategy, and I claim that I am the foremost well-wisher of the British Government among all Muslims because three things have made me first in goodwill. (1) First, the influence of my late father. (2) Secondly, the favors of this Exalted Government. (3) Thirdly, God Almighty's inspiration." (pp. 309-110) The second major reason for Mirza Sahib's such scholarly writings and debates was that he initially attracted the devotion and attention of common Muslims in this way, and at the same time, in the defense of Islam, he heated up the market of discussion on the issues, in which he also smoothed the atmosphere for his future claims of prophethood and messengership, and in the name of preaching Islam, an example of poison coated in sugar is the Arya Samaj Mirza Sahib's debate on the affirmation of the miracles of the prophets, in which the affirmation In the context of miracles, he also wanted to prove that in every era and every age the occurrence of miracles is expected. Obviously, a miracle is fundamentally a requirement of prophethood and messengership. And when prophethood and messengership had ended with the Holy Prophet, then its requirements, miracles, revelation, etc., being expected in every era, in the guise of discussions and debates, was this not preparing the ground for his false prophethood? What else was it? QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2039 Authored Collection In reality, when we look at Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's quarter-century of writing and scholarly life, the focus of all his written and spoken activities is only that he made a unanimous, settled, collective issue of fourteen hundred years, the life and descent of Christ, the target of research, and devoted all his efforts to the claim of the death of Christ and being the Promised Messiah. He wanted to confuse Muslims in the shadowy, metaphorical, and illusory labyrinths, like Christians' belief in the Trinity and Hindus' belief in reincarnation. An endless cycle of dialectics and sophistry. This is another name for Mirza Sahib's scholarly and preaching services. If their contradictory claims and the issues and debates arising from them are removed from his writings, what remains is the prohibition of Jihad and the invitation to obedience, heartfelt loyalty, and sincerity to the British government, while India was already a center of mental, intellectual, and political chaos, and the Islamic world was in the grip of Western materialistic civilization and a self-forgetful culture. But we do not find anything valuable and useful in Mirza Sahib's writings and scholarly services in accordance with the method of invitation of the prophets, except that through his pen and tongue, he tried to shatter the unity of the Indian Muslims, who were victims of religious differences and religious disputes, by further plunging them into mental confusion and unnecessary religious conflict. I CONSTITUTION ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Aug., 1974 A nation is alive only through the unity of thought; An inspiration that destroys unity is also heresy. Iqbal: Zarb-e-Kaleem QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DIDU UDSTON Mirzaism and the Muslim World Islamic Unity is Established Only Through the Finality of Prophethood Every such religious group that is historically associated with Islam But bases itself on a new death and, in its own opinion, considers all Muslims who do not believe in its inspirations to be infidels. Muslims will consider it a threat to the unity of Islam, and this is because Islamic unity is established only through the finality of prophethood. Qadianism is inherently fatal to the spirit and purposes of Islam. It contains so many elements of Judaism that it seems as if this movement is a return to Judaism." Iqbal: Harf-e-Iqbal OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Fulfillment of Imperialistic Aims In addition to the previous details, we will suffice with a few examples of the attitude adopted by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his جماعت (community) towards the entire Islamic world for the sake of fulfilling colonial ambitions, leaving the decision to every fair-minded person. Is such a جماعت (community) not worthy of being called an imperialistic جماعت (community), and did it not try to destroy the unity and security of the entire Islamic world? And that, in binding the Islamic world in the colonial system and enslaving it to the British, were all the sympathies of the Qadianis with the British or not? They would celebrate the British victory with lights, hold joyous celebrations, declare the English army as "our army," and Muslims as "the enemy's army" in comparison. Iraq and Baghdad When the British wanted to occupy Iraq, and for this purpose, Lord Harding visited Iraq. The famous Qadiani newspaper Al-Fadl wrote: "Certainly, the visit of this kind-hearted officer (Lord Harding) to Iraq will produce excellent results. We are happy with these results because God entrusts the task of conquering and ruling the world to those who desire the betterment of His creation and makes them rulers on earth who are worthy of it. So we say again that we are happy because the word of our God is fulfilled, and we hope that with the expansion of the British government, the field for the propagation of Islam will also expand for us, and along with making non-Muslims Muslim, we will make Muslims Muslim again." (Al-Fadl Qadian, Volume Number, Issue Number 103, dated February 4, 1915) 2043 QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Then, eight years after this incident, the British occupied Baghdad, and the Muslims were defeated, Al-Fadl wrote: Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah) states that I am the Mahdi Ma'hood (the Promised Mahdi), and the British Government is my sword, against which these scholars are powerless. Now, it is a matter to consider why we Ahmadis should not be happy with this victory. Whether it is Arab Iraq or Syria, we want to see the shine of our sword everywhere." Justice Munir has also written this: When the Turks were defeated in the First World War, and the British occupied Baghdad, the victory was celebrated in Qadian. This was also written by Justice Munir himself: (Investigation Report p. 208, p. 209, compiled by Justice Muhammad Munir) The founder of Qadianism made an insulting comparison of Islamic countries with the English government. (Investigation Report 208-209, compiled by Justice Muhammad Munir) The First Mirza'i Governor After the Conquest of Iraq The Mirza'is had such a part in this pro-British stance during the fall of Baghdad that when the British conquered Iraq, Major Habibullah Shah, a shadow of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad, was initially appointed as their governor over Iraq. Major Habibullah Shah was recruited during the First World War and went to Iraq, where he was a doctor in the army. 2044 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 The issue of Palestine from the establishment of Israel until now. Akhbar Al-Fazl Qadian Volume 9, Number 36 states: If the Jews are not entitled to the guardianship of Bait-ul-Muqaddas because they deny the prophethood of Jesus Christ and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and the Christians are not entitled because they have denied the prophethood of the Seal of the Prophets, then surely, surely, non-Ahmadi (Muslims) are also entitled to guardianship. If it is said that the prophethood of Hazrat Mirza Sahib is not proven, then the question will be, according to whom? If the answer is that it is not proven according to those who do not believe, then in this way, the prophethood and messengership of the Holy Prophet is not proven according to the Jews, and the prophethood of the Holy Prophet is not proven according to the Christians either. If the verdict of the deniers renders a prophet unmanifest, then there is a consensus of millions of Christians and Jews that, God forbid, the Holy Prophet was not a messenger from God. So, if this principle of non-Ahmadi brothers is correct that only those who believe in all the prophets are entitled to the guardianship of Bait-ul-Muqaddas, then we declare that there is no one besides Ahmadis who believes in all the prophets of God." Not only this, but when the oppressed Muslims of Palestine were being driven out of their centuries-old homeland, and a dagger in the form of Israel was being plunged into the chest of the Arabs by Western imperialists, the Qadiani community was busy, with a complete plan, in creating an environment for Zionism and Western imperialism in this endeavor. A Qadiani preacher writes: "I have given an article on this in a local newspaper, the summary of which is that this is the promised land that has been given to the Jews. But due to the denial of the prophets and..." QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2045 "Ultimately, the animosity towards Christ deprived the Jews of their government there forever. And as a punishment, the government was given to the Romans. And later to the Christians, then to the Muslims. Now, if that land slips from the hands of the Muslims, then the reason for it should be sought. Have the Muslims denied any prophet? We have seen, tested, and are at peace with the justice, peace, and religious freedom of the British Empire. There is no better government for Muslims. Regarding my article about Jerusalem that was published in the newspaper here (England), I have mentioned it above. In response to that, the Prime Minister of Britain's secretary wrote a letter of thanks. They say that Mr. Lloyd George greatly appreciates the article." (Al-Fazl Qadian, Vol. 5, No. 75, dated March 19, 1918) Regarding the practical efforts of the Mirzais in the establishment of Palestine, the activities of Maulvi Jalaluddin Shams and Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood himself are not hidden from anyone. It is likely that Maulvi Jalaluddin Shams, a Mirzai missionary, was sent to Syria in 1926. When the freedom fighters there found out, they launched a deadly attack. Eventually, the cabinet of Tajuddin al-Hasan deported him from Syria. Jalaluddin Shams went to Palestine and established a Qadiani mission in 1928, and until 1931, he continued to serve global imperialism under the protection of the British Revolution. It is proven from Tarikh-e-Ahmadiyyat, authored by Dost Muhammad Shahid Qadiani, that after the announcement of the British plan for the establishment of Palestine in 1917, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood stayed in Palestine in 1924 and, in collusion with Sir Catten, the acting governor of Palestine, devised a plan of action. And Jalaluddin Shams Qadiani was appointed as the overseer of Jewish interests in Damascus. (Monthly Al-Haq, Akora Khattak, Vol. 9, No. 3 from Tarikh-e-Ahmadiyyat, authored by Dost Muhammad Shahid) 2046 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 Until '47, Qadiani activities flourished in Palestine. Well-known Qadianis like Maulvi Allah Ditta Jalandhari, Muhammad Saleem Chaudhry, Muhammad Sharif, Noor Ahmad Munir, Rashid Ahmad Chughtai, in the name of preaching, continued their nefarious conspiracies to subjugate the Arabs. In '34, Mirza Mahmood, Khalifa of Qadian, founded a movement called "Tehrik-e-Jadeed" to fulfill his colonial Zionist goals and demanded a large sum of money from the Jamaat for this movement for political purposes (Tareekh-e-Ahmadiyyat, p. 19). The Palestine Jamaat contributed the most among the Qadiani Jamaats outside India. According to Tareekh-e-Ahmadiyyat, the Palestine Jamaat Haifa and Madrasa Ahmadiyya Kahanir presented a model of sacrifice and sincerity, and Mirza Mahmood praised it (ibid., p. 40). Finally, when Israel was established very cleverly in 1948 according to the 1917 declaration of British Foreign Minister Mr. Balfour, the original inhabitants of Palestine were selectively expelled. But only Qadianis had the privilege of staying there without fear or hesitation and were not interfered with. Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood himself proudly acknowledges this, saying: "Indeed, we do not have the same kind of importance in Arab countries as we have in (European and African countries), but we have gained a kind of importance, and that is that if Muslims remained in the very center of Palestine, they are only Ahmadis." (Al-Fadl, Rabwah, August 30-September 5, 1950) Why wouldn't Mirza Mahmood's Jamaat have such importance, when Mirza Mahmood, the Khalifa, fully cooperated with the Zionists in establishing and strengthening the Jewish state of Israel in Palestine?" (Monthly At-Tahiri Jashn-e-Mubahila, Tareekh-e-Ahmadiyyat by Dost Muhammad Shahid Qadiani) And when this festering wound of Israel was established in the heart of the Arabs, all Muslim states have boycotted it since then. No one from Pakistan There is no diplomatic or non-diplomatic mission there, because Pakistan considers the existence of Israel to be wrong. Pakistan is a big supporter of the Arabs. It is not surprising that Allen's colonial and espionage activity bases in Mount Acrill, Beer Sheva, etc., are established under the guise of Qadiani missionaries. For a long time, no Christian mission could be established in Israel. And later some Christian missions were established. Israel's largest Rabbi Shlomo Goren met with the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Ramsey, and Cardinal Priest Heenan and urged them not to ban Christian missionaries in Israel. (Monthly Al-Haq, Akora Khattak, issue 2, page 27, quoted by Baring News Karachi, 26th September 1973) An organized movement against Christian missions took place in Israel. Attacking Christian centers, breaking shops, and burning copies of the Bible became commonplace. But from 1928 until now, in 26 years, the Jews have not raised any voice against the Qadianis, nor have they stopped their literature, nor have they put any minor obstacles in their way, which is clear proof that they are protecting the Mirzais for their own interests. Isn't the Qadiani mission in Israel, the biggest enemy of Muslims and Pakistan, in the name of preaching Islam, a moment of reflection? It is not surprising that this moment of reflection causes concern and anxiety among Arabs at various intervals and suspicion from Pakistan. They say that these missions remain active in spying on Arab states, finding out military secrets, finding out the economic, moral conditions and religious sentiments of the Islamic world, taking action against Arab guerrillas, and finding ways for global colonialism and Jewish exploitation. 2040 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Israel Mission Mr. Zafarullah Khan's efforts in this regard, from the establishment of Israel until now, are not hidden from anyone. But when you were the Foreign Minister, someone asked about this Israel mission under Rabwah. So, with traditional cunning, you said that the Government of Pakistan was not aware of it. O safety from ambiguous words! But when the Qadiani mission of Israel was discussed in the newspapers recently, it was cleverly said that such missions exist, but they are under Qadian, India. This was such a lie that it is exposed by the annual budget of Tehrik-e-Jadid Rabwah itself for 1966-67. On page 25 of this discussion, under the heading of foreign missions, details of the Qadiani mission in Haifa, Israel, are given (a photocopy of which is attached). QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Detailed Statement of Income and Expenditure - Outside Specimens Expenditure Original Figures, Budget Haifa Income (Israeli Pound) Rs. 20770 Statement of Names, Original Figures, Budget 144-12 24-25 1450 {You 1. Y. 135 3400 300 3400 Summary Expenditure Net New Movement Contribution General and Short Income Zakat Eid Fund Donations Miscellaneous Metered Income 10-17 64-65 Acr ގረ P r 5 972 97 (ir) 2049 Statement of Names Central Missionaries Staff Salary Yatra Statement of Names Original Figures Budget 11-16 25-66 60 60 40 50 50 10 15 A. 50 50 50 1055 2** 1.00 1-00 1055 2025 r 1373 1373 1373 3400 Publication Department Preaching Meetings and Eid Minna Tours and Travel Expenses Hospitality House Rent, Furniture Electricity, Water, Gas, etc. Stationery Postal Telegraph and Telephone Books, Newspapers .. Miscellaneous Expenses of Al-Mubashir Magazine Balance of Other Total Expenditure, Including Other A copy of page 25 of the annual budget of Ahmadiyya New Movement 1966-67. Central Reserve Total Balance £334 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali)] Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Israel Mission Here we present another proof of the Qadiani mission in Israel, along with the original text. This excerpt is taken from the book "Our Foreign Mission" compiled by Mubarak Ahmad, page 78, published by Ahmadiyya Foreign Mission Rabwah, which is published by the Qadianis themselves. The author of the book is the grandson of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. The Ahmadiyya Mission is located in Haifa (Mount Carmel) in Israel, where we have a mosque, a mission house, a library, a book depot, and a school. Our mission publishes a monthly Arabic magazine called "Al-Bushra," which is sent to various countries. This mission has translated many writings of the Promised Messiah into Arabic. The mission was greatly affected by the partition of Palestine. The mission is doing its best to serve the few Muslims who are currently present in Israel, and their morale is high due to the presence of the mission. Some time ago, our missionaries met with the Mayor of Haifa and had discussions with him. The Mayor promised that he would allow the Ahmadiyya community to build a school near Haifa in Kabir. This area is the center and stronghold of our community. Some time later, the Mayor Sahib visited our missionary center. Four dignitaries from Haifa accompanied him. He was received with great respect, which included prominent members of the community and students of the school. A gathering was also held in his honor, in which a letter of thanks was presented to him. Before leaving, the Mayor Sahib also wrote his impressions in the guest register. The effectiveness of our community can be proved by the following small incident: in 1956, when our preacher Chaudhry Muhammad QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION AUDI Sharif Sahib was returning to Rabwah, Pakistan, when our missionary received a message from the President of Israel to the effect that Chaudhry Sahib should meet the President before his departure. Taking advantage of the opportunity, Chaudhry Sahib presented a copy of the Holy Quran, which was in German, to the esteemed President, which was accepted with sincerity. Chaudhry Sahib's interview with the President was broadcast on Israeli radio, and his meeting was published in newspapers with bold headlines. ISRAEL MISSION The Ahmadiyya Mission in Israel is situated in Haifa at Mount Carmel. We have a mosque there, a Mission House, a library, a book depot, and a school. The mission also brings out a monthly, entitled Al-Bushra which is sent out to thirty different countries accessible through the medium of Arabic. Many works of the Promised Messiah have been translated into Arabic through this mission. In many ways this Ahmadiyya Mission has been deeply affected by the Partition of what formerly was called Palestine. The small number of Muslims left in Israel derive a great deal of strength from the presence of our mission which never misses a chance of being of service to them. Some time ago, our missionary had an interview with the Mayor of Haifa, when during the discussion on many points, he offered to build for us a school at Kababeer, a village near Haifa, where we have a strong and 2052 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 Analyzing the ideological similarities and commonalities between Jews and Qadianis, Allama Iqbal said 28 years ago that Mirzaism contains within it the elements of Judaism, as if this movement is a return to Judaism. (Harf-e-Iqbal, page 15). But in 1936, this was a theoretical discussion on which there could be room for commentary. But later, from the realm of knowledge and vision to the field of endeavor and action, the mutual cooperation and resemblance between the two, i.e., Qadianism and Zionism, emerged as an obvious reality. QADIANI ISSUE” GENERAL DISCUSSION 2033 Mutual Collaboration of Mirzaiat and Judaism On what common goals is this mutual connection and relationship based? We do not need much deliberation for this. The anti-Islam stance of the British Empire is not hidden from anyone, and Zionist colonialism, as a tool of the West, has become a challenge for Muslims, especially Arabs. The logical outcome of both's objectives and loyalties being animosity towards Islam and hostility towards Pakistan has emerged in the form of deep friendly relations between Qadianis and Israel. After the Arab world, if Israel considered any country its biggest enemy, it was Pakistan. Israel's Pani David Ben-Gurion's speech in August 1967 at Sarahon University, Paris, is clear proof of this. Ben Gurion said: "Pakistan is actually our ideological challenge. The international Zionist movement should not in any way be mistaken about Pakistan, nor should it be negligent of the danger of Pakistan." (Further, while mentioning the mutual relations between Pakistan and the Arabs, he said: Therefore, we should take action against Pakistan as soon as possible. Pakistan's intellectual capital and war power can cause great trouble for us in the future, therefore a deep friendship with India is essential. Rather, we should take advantage of the historical animosity and hatred that India holds against Pakistan. This historical animosity is our asset. We must, with full force, through international circles and through our influence in the great powers, help India and plan to strike a full blow on Pakistan. This work should be carried out with utmost secrecy and under covert plans. (Jerusalem Post, August 19, 1967, from Daily Nawa-i-Waqt Lahore, dated May 2, 1972, and September 3, 1973) 2054 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 What is the intellectual asset and war power of Pakistan that Ben-Gurion mentioned? The answer to this can be found with the famous Jewish military expert Professor Hird, who says: "The Pakistani army has an extraordinary love for its Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. This is the foundation that has strengthened the mutual relations between Pakistan and the Arabs. This situation poses a serious threat to global Judaism and is hindering the expansion of Israel. Therefore, Jews should eliminate the love of the Prophet from within the Pakistanis in every possible way." (Nawa-i-Waqt, p. 226, May 1972 and Nair, Zionist Organizations in Great Britain, Amen Jewish Chronicle, August 19, 1967) In the background of Ben-Gurion's statement, it becomes surprising that Israel, which hates Pakistan so much, embraced a party whose headquarters, i.e., Pakistan itself, is an ideological challenge for them. Obviously, the party that emerged as the champion of the theory of denial of finality of Prophethood and prohibition of Jihad, to eliminate the ideological basis of the Pakistani army, i.e., extraordinary love for the Arab Prophet and the secret of war power, the spirit of Jihad, could become their favorite in the entire Islamic world and Pakistan. It should be clear that very soon, when the imperialist powers and Zionists got the opportunity to vent their feelings of animosity in the form of East Pakistan, Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban not only praised this separatist movement but also offered to provide necessary weapons in time. (Monthly Al-Haq, Akora Khattak, JSS, p. 8, quoted from Monthly Palestine, Beirut, January 1972) This impression is further strengthened by the statement of the current Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, in which he revealed that Israeli money was used in the general elections of Pakistan in 1970. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DAUDOJIM LUJJ Came and was used in the election campaign. Finally, if that money did not come through the Mirzais, then through what means did it come? And the conspiracy against the existence of Pakistan that was prepared in Tel Aviv, which Bhutto Sahib revealed while giving an interview to Hussain Haikal, the editor of those Pyramids of Egypt, how did it flourish when Pakistan had no contact with Israel except through Qadiani missions? If the Qadiani community was not a tool of international Zionism and its role against the Islamic world and Pakistan was not so heinous, then the doors of Israel could never have been opened to them. The Qadianis may want to take refuge a thousand times in the guise of preaching and inviting to Islam, but this question will remain in its place: Is this preaching in Israel being done to those Jews who have abandoned their countries and homelands for the sake of Zionism and have gathered in Israel under all prejudices, or is the practice of preaching being done on those surviving Muslim Arabs who are already devoted to Muhammad, peace be upon him, and are enduring the oppression of Zionism? Israel launched a full-fledged aggressive attack on the Arabs in '65 and then in '73 with the help of Western allies. When the war broke out, the Qadianis got an opportunity to fulfill the requirements of mutual relations and ties with Israel and to fulfill the right of friendship, and both of them fully vented their desires against the Islamic world. Actions were taken against Arab guerrilla and shadow organizations through the mediation of Qadianis. By gaining Qadiani influence in the guise of being Muslims in these organizations, they continued to sabotage internally, and in the recent Arab-Israeli wars, they became as loyal to the Zionists as they were to the British during the British era, and this is also so that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's self-made inspiration about the massive destruction of the Arabs would be fulfilled, in which the news of the progress and rise of the Ahmadiyya movement after the destruction of the Arabs was given in these words, which is not actually inspiration but in the guise of inspiration to his son. LUJU NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 In the future, the path to conspiracies against Islam and Arabs was shown. God has informed me that a universal destruction will come, and the center of all these events will be Syria. Sahibzada Sahib (meaning his addressee Pir Siraj-ul-Haq Qadiani) will be my Promised Son at that time. God has destined these circumstances with him. After these events, our order will progress, and rulers will enter our order. You should recognize this Promised One. (Tazkira Mirza ka Majmua Wahi wal Ilham Matbua Rabwah, p. 99 - Second Edition p. 795) Allama Iqbal said about such revelations: "May Allah protect us from the revelations of the subjugated, it is a destroyer of nations, a likeness of Genghis." Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Mr. Chairman! It is time for Maghrib prayer. Mr. Chairman: Proceedings will resume at 7:20. It is adjourned for half an hour. [The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib Prayers to re-assemble at 7.20 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghrib Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali), in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Maulana Mufti Mahmood! QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2057 Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: The Ottoman Caliphate and Turkey (The Qadiani Community's Address to Edward Maclagan, Lieutenant Governor of Punjab, Al Fazl Newspaper, December 22, 1909, Volume 7, Number 48) We want to make it clear that religiously, we have no connection with the Turks. From our religious point of view, we are bound to consider that person as our leader who is the successor of the Promised Messiah, and from a worldly perspective, to believe in the one whose government we live under as our king and sultan. Therefore, our Caliph is the second Caliph of Hazrat Promised Messiah (Mirza Sahib), and our king is His Majesty the Great King. The Sultan of Turkey is by no means the Caliph of Muslims. (Announcement of Sifah Umoor, Qadian, published in Al Fazl Newspaper, Qadian, Volume 7, Number 19, February 16, 1920) Address of the Khilafat Conference in Leader Newspaper, Allahabad, dated January 21, 1920: To the service of His Excellency the Viceroy. In the list of signatories, before the name of Maulvi Sanaullah Amritsari, the name of a person, Maulvi Muhammad Ali Qadiani, is listed. The word "Qadiani" is added to Maulvi Muhammad Ali's name merely to deceive people, otherwise, he is not an Ahmadi associated with Qadian who recognizes the Sultan of Turkey as the Caliph of Muslims. It seems that this Maulvi Sahib is a non-allegiant of the Lahori leader, but he is by no means entitled to be written with the word "Qadian" attached to his name, neither because he is a resident of Qadian, nor because it is the belief of any Ahmadi from the center of Qadian that the Sultan of Turkey is the Caliph of Muslims." The Qadianis stood shoulder to shoulder with the British in breaking up the Ottoman Caliphate and inciting the Arabs to fight against the Turks. An idea of this can be gauged from the incident that is highlighted in a published magazine from Damascus, Al-Qadiyaniyya, regarding the political features and colonial duties and positions of the Mirzais. 2058 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug. 1974 It is written after that, during the First World War, the British sent Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad's shadow, Waliullah Zainul Abedin, to the Ottoman Empire. There, through the commander of the Fifth Division, Jamal Pasha, he became a lecturer in theology at Quds University in 1917. But when the British forces entered Damascus, Waliullah took off his cloak and joined the British army, and was in charge of inciting Arabs to fight against the Turks. When the Iraqis became aware of this, the Government of India insisted on his stay there, but the Iraqi government refused, and he fled to Qadian and was made Nazir Umoor-e-Amah (Director of Public Affairs). (Ref: Al-Qadianiyat Taba Mushtaq) After narrating this incident, Risala Al-Qadianiyah wrote that there is no place for Mirzais in any Muslim Arab state, but due to such actions, Pakistan is targeted among the Arabs. Even after the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate, during the era of Mustafa Kamal, the conspiracies of the Mirzais continued, and it is a common tradition that two Qadianis went to Turkey as members of Mustafa Saghir's team. Mustafa Saghir is known to be a Qadiani and was assigned to assassinate Mustafa Kamal. But he was put to death when the secret was revealed. AFGHANISTAN The mention of conspiratorial letters against the Government of Afghanistan and opposition to the spirit of Jihad has already been logically presented. Listen to a few more facts. Appeal to the League of Nations against Afghanistan In the name of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Sahib, Khalifatul Masih II, made a strong appeal to the League of Nations that recently fifteen police constables and QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2037 "Because of mere religious difference, the government of Kabul has stoned to death two Ahmadi Muslims in front of the Superintendent, therefore, there should be interference to inquire from the court of Afghanistan. At the very least, such a government is not worthy of maintaining sympathetic relations with civilized kingdoms." (Al-Fadl Qadian, vol. 12, no. 95, February 28, 1925) Amir Amanullah Khan foolishly started a war against the British. Mian Mahmood Ahmad said in his Friday sermon published in Al-Fadl, vol. 6, May 27, 1919: "At this time (during the reign of Shah Amanullah Khan), the war that Kabul has started with the British is foolishness. It is the duty of Ahmadis to serve the Government, because obedience to the Government is our duty. But the war in Afghanistan holds a new significance for Ahmadis because Kabul is the land where our most precious beings were killed, and killed unjustly, and for no reason. So Kabul is the place where the preaching of Ahmadiyyat is forbidden and the doors to truth are closed upon it. Therefore, for the establishment of truth, it is the religious duty of Ahmadis to join the British government's army and help the British government to remove these cruel restrictions. So strive that through you may spring forth those branches of which the Promised Messiah informed." Significant assistance from Mirza'is to the British in the Kabul War When the war with Kabul took place, our community helped beyond its capacity, and in addition performed many kinds of services. A double company was offered. PAKISTAN August 15, 1974 Recruitment stopped due to the war, otherwise more than a thousand people had registered for it. And the younger son of our water-carrying family and the younger brother of our current Imam offered their services and worked in the Transport Corps as honorary for six months. Colonial and Zionist Activities in African Countries Africa is the only continent in the world from where the British Empire lifted its banner of tyranny last, and even today some areas are subject to British imperial influences. In West Africa, Qadianis established bases for the British Empire from the very beginning and spied for them. It is mentioned in The Cambridge History of Islam, published in 1970: "THE AHMADIYYA FIRST APPEARED ON THE WEST AFRICAN COAST DURING THE FIRST WORLD WAR, WHEN SEVERAL YOUNG MEN IN LAGUS AND FREE TOWN JOINED BY MAIL. IN 1921 THE FIRST INDIAN MISSIONARRY ARRIVED. TOO UNORTHODOU TO GAIN A FOOTING IN THE MUSLIM INTERIOR, THE AHMADIYYA REMAIN CONFINED PRINCIPALLY TO SOUTHERN NIGERIA, SOUTHERN GOLD COAST SIERRALEONE. IT STRENGTHENED THE RANKS OF THOSE MUSLIMS ACTIVELY LOYAL TO THE BRITISH, AND IT CONTRIBUTED TO THE MODERNIZATION OF ISLAMIC ORGANIZATION IN THE AREA." (The Cambridge History of Islam Vol-II edited by Holt, Lambton, and Lewis, Cambridge University Press, 1970, P-400) ::: During the First World War, people of the Ahmadiyya sect reached the coast of West Africa where some young men from Lagos and Freetown reached them. The first Indian missionary arrived there in 1921, although these people could not preach any belief, but their intention was to reach the inner areas of the Muslim population. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 200 These people were mostly active in Southern Nigeria, Southern Gold Coast, and Sierra Leone, where they were establishing themselves. These people strengthened the Muslim forces who were extremely loyal to the Kingdom of Great Britain and modernized Islam in these areas. From this excerpt, it is clear that after 1921, the Qadianis mostly remained confined to Southern Gold Coast and Sierra Leone. Like in enslaved India, they tried to strengthen loyalties to Britain by preaching British obedience and prohibiting the belief in Jihad to the Muslims here. Recently, the Qadianis have published an account of Mirza Nasir Ahmad's visit to Africa under the name "Africa Speaks," which is a clear proof of Qadiani conspiracies in Africa. This passage in it is particularly noteworthy. "ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF GHULAM AHMAD'S HAS BEEN REJECTION OF "HOLY WARS" AND FORCIBLE CONVERSION." ('Africa Speaks' Page 93, published by Majlis Nusrat Jahan Tahrik-i-Jadid, Rabwah.) That is, one of the main beliefs of Ghulam Ahmad is the rejection of holy war (Jihad). After all, Mauritius is an African island. In 1967, a book by Mr. Mumtaz Omarit, "The Muslim in Mauritius," was published here, with a foreword written by the Prime Minister of Mauritius. In the book, the learned author has painstakingly mentioned such destructive activities of the Qadianis that are causing suffering to the Muslims. He has mentioned a case filed by the Muslims in this regard. This case of Masjid Rose Mal, according to the author, is said to be the largest case in the history of Mauritius, in which the Supreme Court took statements and heard evidence for two years, and on November 19, 1920, Chief Justice Sir Eyre Hutchesson gave the verdict that 2062 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Muslims are a separate nation and Qadianis are separate. A study of the book also reveals that their arrival here was also in the form of the British army for their colonial purposes. He writes that two soldiers belonging to the Qadiani religion reached Mauritius, one named Din Muhammad and the other named Babu Ismail Khan. They belonged to the 17th Royal Infantry. Until 1915, these soldiers continued their missionary activities. (Soldiers doing missionary work? Worth considering). For details see Al Munir, Lahore, 9/23, p. 718) Two years ago, the two schemes launched in Africa in the name of preaching, Nusrat Jahan Reserve Fund and Aagey Barho Scheme, were laid down in London and Mirza Nasir Ahmed opened the account. (Al-Fazl Rabwah 39 / July 1974) Regarding their activities in Africa, Qadiani preachers residing in Britain keep in touch with the High Commissioners of those countries and provide them with information. The British Foreign Office protects all these missions of the Qadianis. And when some people express surprise to the British Foreign Office as to why most of the Qadiani missions in the African continent are only in British possessions and Britain protects them and it is more kind to Qadianis than other missionaries, the Foreign Office replied that the purposes of the Empire are different from the purposes of preaching. The answer was clear that the imperial powers give priority to their political interests and objectives in their colonies over missionary purposes and that work can only be done by Mirza'i missions and not by Christian missionaries. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION The Vanguard of Zionism in Africa In addition to protecting British interests, this Qadiani mission in Africa is also the strongest and most loyal vanguard of Israel and Zionism. The purpose of Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib's tour of foreign countries from July 13, 1973, to September 29, 1973, was entirely political. The hidden political meetings that took place in the Mahmood Hall of the London Mission were aimed at fulfilling the political objectives of Israel and European colonialism in Africa. (Monthly Al-Haq, Vol. 9, No. 2, p. 25) According to a report by Khawaja Nazir Ahmad, Press Secretary of the London Mission, Al-Fazl Rabwah, July 1, 1972, ambassadors of those West African countries that Mirza Nasir Ahmad had visited were met. The Press Secretary writes: "To acquaint the ambassadors of some of these West African countries with his efforts and services, respected Bashir Ahmad Khan Rafiq, Imam of Fazl Mosque, London, led a three-member delegation, which included respected Chaudhry Hidayatullah, Senior Secretary of the Embassy of Pakistan, and this humble servant, Khawaja Nazir Ahmad, Press Secretary of Fazl Mosque, London, His Excellency H.V.H. Sekyi, High Commissioner of Ghana based in London, was met." (Al-Fazl Rabwah, June 28, 1972) The extent and performance of these activities in Africa can be gauged from the fact that now the World Zionist Organization (WZO) and all its agencies, and the Jewish Agency of Israel, are openly using the Qadianis in Africa as tools for their nefarious purposes, which is a cause of concern for the Arabs. 2004 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 have become the cause. After the Arab-Israel war, the Qadianis, along with anti-government movements in African countries that severed ties with Israel, exerted political pressure on them. Millions of Capital Where does the capital of millions and crores of rupees for these purposes in African countries come from? This is a mystery that has baffled the famous Arab writer Allama Muhammad Mahmoud Al-Sawwaf, who writes on page 253 of his recent book Al-Khaltat Al-Isti'mariyah Limukafahtah Al-Islam. "This infidel group is always spreading corruption in the land and is striving hard to fight and combat Islam in every field, especially in Africa, where their activities are increasing rapidly. I received a letter from Uganda in East Africa, along with the book "Hamamatul Bushra" by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the liar of Qadian, who, in their opinion, is the Messiah and Mahdi. The book Hamamatul Bushra was distributed there in large numbers and is full of disbelief and heresy." This letter, which I received from a very great preacher and leader of Muslims. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2063 One of the senior Islamic preachers it was said in it: He says in it: Indeed, something great from Qadianism has afflicted us and Islam. Their affairs have become very serious and they are very active in their advocacy and they spend countless amounts of money, and there is no doubt that this wealth is only from colonialism and missionaries. In fact, I have received almost confirmed news that there is a strong missionary society based in Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia, and that the annual budget of this society is 35 million dollars, and that it is focused on fighting Islam." [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi)] Maulvi Mufti Mahmood Allama Sarraf has mentioned the mission of Addis Ababa, whose 35 million dollars (35 crore rupees according to Pakistani calculation), it is not known for the last several years in Ethiopia. 2066 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 How much of a role will it have in the Muslims' sorrowful destruction and ruin? If this secret is revealed, then it can also be understood what the possibility was of collecting up to nine crore rupees in response to Mirza Nasir Ahmad's appeal for one and a half crore rupees for the Jubilee Fund scheme, the news of which he told his followers in (Al-Fazl Rabwah, March 5, 1974). After reading the aforementioned details, what else can be inferred except that if Africa has not yet fully escaped from the clutches of foreign chess players and is also a haven for global Zionism, then one of the reasons for this, among other reasons, is the Mirza'i group, which has been betraying Islam and the Muslim world for a long time. Organizations for the Welfare of the Muslims of the Subcontinent and the Role of the Mirza'is Now we will briefly review the role of the Mirza'is from the beginning until now in the freedom movement of the subcontinent, the movements for the welfare of Muslims, and the establishment of Pakistan, and after the establishment of Pakistan, their dangerous political ambitions and activities to divide the country into pieces and establish a Qadiani state or, otherwise, an undivided India. During the British rule in the subcontinent, all the movements for the renaissance of Muslims were well clarified by the aforementioned details that the Mirza'is not only harmed it for the pleasure of the British but also on all such occasions, whether it was Jihad-e-Azadi or any other movement, the work of the Mirza'is was to spy for the British and provide them with secret information and to make such movements ineffective for covert colonial purposes. The activities of this group in connection with Jihad and British colonialism in India and abroad have come to light in the previous details. If these espionage activities continued in Arab and Muslim countries, then on the other hand, when the scholars of truth declared India as Darul-Harb, Mirza Sahib, while leaving slogans in the name of Friday, etc., sent an advertisement to the British officers and advised the British government that the issue of Friday QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2067 Through this, those unworthy, wicked Muslims who declare this country as Dar-ul-Harb can be identified. Friday, which was a sacred day of worship, Mirza Sahib, with great cunning, made it a means of a raw informant for the English government, according to him, and a means of distinguishing between the genuine and the counterfeit. (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 8, Collection of Advertisements, Farooqi Press, Qadian) In another noteworthy advertisement, Mirza Sahib mentioned such a spy feat with great pride and said: "Since it is expedient for the goodwill of the British government, the names of such ignorant Muslims who secretly declare British India as Dar-ul-Harb in their hearts should also be recorded in the maps. Therefore, this map is proposed for this purpose so that the names of unrighteous people can be preserved in it." (Further said) "We have recorded the names of such mischievous people with the intention of political goodwill of our benefactor government. These maps are kept safe with us like a political secret." Further, there is mention of preparing and sending such maps in which the names of such people are along with their addresses and signs. (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Vol. 5, p. 11) An example of betrayal of the movements struggling for the political rights of Muslims can be seen from the memorandum of Anjuman-e-Islamia Lahore, which it sent to celebrities in connection with arranging demands for the economic and educational development of Muslims, promotion of Urdu language, etc. Mirza Sahib vehemently opposed these demands of Muslims and condemned such activities, saying: "One should impress the mark of loyalty in the heart of the Englishman" and said that instead of spreading such memorandums, the Anjuman-e-Islamia should obtain such fatwas from the scholars of the subcontinent in which there is a clear prohibition of jihad against the nurturing and benevolent English government, and send letters to them to have their seals affixed and spread them under the name of Maktubat-e-Ulama-e-Hind. (Request to the Islamic Society, Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, Part III, published by Safeer Hind Press, Amritsar) 2068 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 When the Muslim League was founded in 1906, the aim of this party was to struggle for the economic rights of Muslims against Hindus. Mirza Sahib not only refused to participate but also expressed displeasure because this party might turn against the British in the future. (Worthy of the Government's attention from Mirza Imam Ahmad and Seerat Masih Maud from Mirza Basheer-ud-Din, p. 23, p. 44) The same pattern continued with his successors after him. The establishment of the Kashmir Committee in 1931, and eventually its disintegration due to the secret activities of Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood, and Allama Iqbal's separation from this committee and dismantling of the committee, which will be mentioned later, all these things have become part of history. Allama Iqbal came to know with certainty that: The President (Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood) and Secretary (Abdul Rahim) of the Kashmir Committee both perform the noble task of providing secret information to the Viceroy and senior British officials. (Political Movements in Punjab, p. 210, Abdullah Malik) These espionage activities are such an important part of the Mirza'i community's sacred work that its network has been spread not only in the subcontinent but throughout the entire Islamic world since then. And even today, from East to West, in Asia, Africa, and Europe, Mirza'i centers are serving as intelligence bureaus for enemies against Muslims. A brief mention will be made of these activities and their financial resources, etc. In short, in the words of the late Allama Iqbal, all such efforts for the awakening of Muslims have been opposed because the real issue is that Qadianis are also alarmed by the political awakening of the Muslims of India because they believe that By increasing the political prestige of the Muslims of India, their purpose will be lost, which is to create a new community for an Indian prophet by cutting off from the community of the Arab Prophet. (Harf-e-Iqbal, p. 131, p. 142) QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2069 There was also room for cooperation and collaboration with the Islamic institutions and associations of the subcontinent in a religion that completely forbids all kinds of religious, social, and communal relations and connections with Muslims. A Mirza'i said that when the purpose of the Promised Messiah was only to propagate Islam, then we should cooperate with other Muslim movements and organizations. Then Syed Sarwar Shah Qadiani in Al-Fazl Qadian, vol. 2, page 72, dated January 20, 1915, strongly forbade it and swore that what was the relationship of the Promised Messiah with non-Ahmadis in his life? Did he ever ask for donations from non-Ahmadis? Never. If this was Ahmadiyyat, then other people who rose up for the propagation of Islam in the time of the Messiah, the Promised One, should have expressed joy for them and you would have participated in their associations. You would have given them donations, but you never did so. When permission was sought from Mian Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood for a fundraising campaign for a Muslim orphan and widow, he said there was no need to donate together with Muslims: Akhand Bharat (Al-Fazl Qadian, vol. 8, p. 45-7, dated March 9, 1922) Hindus and Qadianis both realized the need for each other. In terms of politics, the Qadianis and the British were inseparable, but when, as a result of the struggle for freedom and the ebb and flow of international politics, the grip of British colonialism on India weakened, Mirza Mahmood, who had by then become the second Khalifa of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, changed his stance and became a sympathizer of Congress. On the other hand, Hindu politics and mentality also viewed the Qadiani movement as political. 2070 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Benefiting from this perspective and understanding its fifth columnist status among Muslims, they began to support and advocate for it. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, who called himself a British socialist and atheist, took up the cause of supporting a party that insisted on calling itself a purely Muslim religious party. Such a shrewd man as Nehru could not have been unaware of the hidden political ambitions of the Qadianis, and despite his atheism, he continuously wrote three articles in the Modern Review Calcutta under the title "Muslims and Ahmadism," which led to a debate with the late Dr. Iqbal. These discussions have been published in magazines and newspapers and do not need to be repeated here. In short, Iqbal explained to him that these people, due to their British colonial ambitions and plans, could be beneficial neither to Muslims nor to him. So, when he remained silent, and when Nehru went to London for the first time as the leader of the Indian National Congress, upon his return, he expressed the impression that as long as Qadianis were active in this country, it would be difficult for the war of independence against the British to succeed. In any case, until Pandit Jawaharlal understood this colonial aspect of Qadianism, the Hindus' choice to create a permanent rift among Muslims remained with the Mirzais, and even today, through the ties to Qadian and the belief in Akhand Bharat, they continue to use them as tools for espionage and subversive activities. In any case, when both Qadianis and Hindus realized each other's need and importance, and the British master's departure seemed imminent, Qadian quickly became the center of Hindu activities, and according to the Lahori translator of the Qadiani community, "Paigham-e-Sulah," June 3, 1939. When Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru came to Lahore on July 29, 1936, the Qadiani community, under the guidance of their Caliph Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud and Chaudhry Asadullah Khan, brother of Chaudhry Zafarullah, a member of Punjab. They were enthusiastically welcomed under the leadership of the council, and subsequently, the Congress-Qadiani alliance gained permanent status. Who could be happier than the Hindus at Qadian being made the sacred land, the breasts of Mecca being dried up, and Muslims being slaughtered with the knife of Takfir? Just as the Jews turned away from Jerusalem and made Samaria their Qibla, the Qadianis wanted to turn the Muslims' faces from Mecca and Medina towards Qadian. Hindu leaders heartily applauded them for this Masjid-e-Dirar. Consequently, the statement of Dr. Shankar Das, a famous Hindu leader, is sufficient for this. He stated in Bande Matram: "If Indian nationalists see any ray of hope, it is in the Ahmadiyya movement. It is a fact that the more Muslims are attracted to Ahmadiyyat, the more they will consider Qadian as Mecca. If anything can end Arab civilization and Pan-Islamism among Muslims, it is this Ahmadi movement. Just as when a Hindu converts to Islam, his devotion shifts from Ram, Krishna, Gita, and Ramayana to Prophet Muhammad, the Quran, and the land of Arabia (sacred land), similarly, when a Muslim becomes an Ahmadi, his perspective also changes. His devotion to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) gradually decreases, and where his caliphate was previously in Arabia, it now comes to Qadian. An Ahmadi, no matter where in the world he may be, turns his face towards Qadian to gain spiritual power. Therefore, what Congress and the Hindus want from Muslims at the very least is that the Muslims of this country, if not Haridwar, should make a pilgrimage to Qadian." (Gandhi Ji's newspaper Bande Matram, April 22, 1932, quoted from Qadian Mazhab) 2072 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Further clarification can be found in these words from the newspaper "Paigham-e-Sulh Lahore" J 2, page 69, dated April 21, 1945: "These views of Hindu newspapers and political leaders are clearly telling the Muslims of India that the recent hushed conversations (whispers) between Qadiani Hitler (Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood) and Congress's Jawahar (Jawahar Lal Nehru) were based on this agreement: What Mahmood (Khalifa of Qadian) would do to break the strength of the Muslims, and what Congress would give in return." Reasons for Opposing the Establishment of Pakistan Before the establishment of Pakistan, the vehement opposition of the Ahmadis to the establishment of Pakistan until the very end can be well estimated from a few excerpts. Firstly, their utmost effort was that the shadow of the British, which they considered a divine blessing, should not fade from India in any way. And when the sun of the British Empire began to set in India, they put all their weight in favor of undivided India instead of the establishment of any Muslim state. The basic reason for this was that the Mirza'i movement needed a state to work within the Muslims, which could either be completely non-Muslim or at least not Islamic, so that the Muslim nation would be helpless in the clutches of an infidel government, remaining their prey and easy target, and they would become loyal to this infidel-religious government and continue to hunt them. An independent and sovereign Muslim state is a very rugged land for them, where their efforts of apostasy can hardly bear fruit. Some idea of this can also be gained from these writings in which Mirza Sahib said:. If we leave here (the English Empire), we can survive neither in Mecca nor in Constantinople. (Malfuzat Ahmad, page 146) In Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 5, page 69, it is written: (Majmua Ishtiharat, Volume 2, page ?, Matba Jadeed) "I cannot carry out my work well in Mecca, nor in Medina, nor in Rome, nor in Syria, nor in Iran, nor in Kabul, except in this government for whose prosperity I pray." Just think, if you go out of the shadow of this government, then where will you find refuge? Every Islamic empire is sharpening its teeth to kill you because in their eyes you have become infidels and apostates. (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 10, page 132) In Al-Fadl, September 13, 1914, examples of the three major Muslim empires of Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan are given to explain that we cannot get a free hand to fulfill our objectives in any Islamic state. In such countries, our fate would be the same as that of Mirza Ali Muhammad Bab in Iran, Baha'u'llah in the Ottoman Empire, and Mirza'i missionaries in Afghanistan." When a person asked Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood about sympathy for the British Empire and all kinds of overt and covert cooperation for it, even recruiting his people in the war and helping them, he said with reference to his Promised Messiah that until the Ahmadiyya Jamaat is able to take over the reins of government, it is necessary to maintain this wall (the British government) so that this system does not fall into the hands of such a power (Muslims could be meant) which is more harmful and detrimental to the interests of Ahmadiyyat. (Al-Fadl Qadian, January 3, 1945) These were the real reasons for opposing the creation of Pakistan. LU 17 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Anti-Partition Muslims There is no doubt that besides Ahmadis, some Muslims also did not agree with the Pakistan Movement, but It has become clear from the above statements that there was a world of difference between the opposition of the Mirzais and the opposition of some Muslim elements. The latter, i.e., the individual opposition of some Muslims, was in their discretion for the sake of the interests of the Muslims. While stating the reasons and grounds for their opposition, they considered the partition harmful to the interests of the Muslims, and the other party, i.e., the advocates of the establishment of Pakistan, considered it beneficial. In other words, both agreed on the interests of the Muslims. It was a difference of method. This was a political difference based on political insight. Those who opposed were neither claimants of inspiration nor of any revelation, nor did they consider it a divine will or a requirement of the advent of any so-called prophet. Both of them religiously and ideologically believed in the Islamic system of justice and the Islamic Caliphate. Both were active in their respective fields for the sake of the Muslims, and finally, when Pakistan was established, the opposing Muslim leaders have since then devoted all their efforts to the stability and integrity of this nascent state. But as far as the Ahmadis are concerned, their concept of Akhand Bharat was not only a political but also a religious belief. Mirza Mahmood used to say that Allah Almighty wants to keep India united and this is the requirement of the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. In this way, by giving the status of inspiration and divine will to the concept of Akhand Bharat, every Qadiani was bound to strive to fulfill the divine will, and those who (until now) did not allow Akhand Bharat to be formed for the sake of the integrity of Pakistan, whether it was Quaid-e-Azam or political leaders, the public and the private, in the belief of the Mirzais, as if everyone worked against the will of God. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2075 The Ahmadiyya needed Akhand Bharat because they considered themselves separate from the Muslims and considered a non-Muslim state more beneficial than any Muslim state. Even today, they consider a secular Akhand Bharat stronger and more beneficial for themselves than a Muslim state like Pakistan, which has limited geographical boundaries, while some predictions of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad have given this concept a sacred aura for them. Efforts to reunite in one way or another Therefore, on April 3, 1947, on the occasion of the marriage of Chaudhry Zafar Khan's nephew, the former Caliph of Rabwah, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood, narrated a vision of his own and, while mentioning the interpretation of this vision (dream) and the predictions of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in this connection, said in the presence of Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan: "And Huzoor said, as far as I have reviewed the predictions related to the Promised Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad), and as far as I have considered the act of Allah Almighty that is associated with the advent of Seed Bud (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad). I have come to the conclusion that in India we should live together with other nations and have partnership with Hindus and Christians.” The truth is that there are strong forces like India. There is no doubt in the success of the nation that merges with it. From the will of Allah Almighty that He has provided such vast avenues for Ahmadiyyat, it seems that He wants to gather the whole of India on one page and wants to put the necklace of Ahmadiyyat around everyone's neck. Therefore, we should try to raise the Hindu-Muslim question and all the communities should live in harmony so that the country is not divided. Indeed, this task is very difficult but its results are very glorious. And Allah Almighty wants all the communities to be united so that... 2076 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 Ahmadiyyat should prosper in this expanse. Therefore, this vision hints that there might be some temporary division, and for some time, both nations will be separate. But this situation is temporary, and we should strive to end it soon. Anyway, we want an undivided India and all nations to live together in harmony. (Daily Al-Fazl, Qadian, 2nd April 1927) I have previously stated that Allah Almighty wants to keep India united, but due to the nations' hatred, it might have to separate temporarily. It is a different matter that we agreed to the partition of India not willingly but out of compulsion, and then we will try to unite again somehow as soon as possible." (Mian Mirza Mahmood, Khalifa II, Al-Fazl, 15th August 1937) Demand for Vatican State Treachery at the time of Pakistan's border demarcation The Ahmadiyya community was against the partition, but when the partition was announced despite opposition, Ahmadis made another tremendous effort to harm Pakistan, due to which the Gurdaspur district, in which the town of Qadian was located, was cut off from Pakistan and included in India. This in summary The detail is that when the Boundary Commission was finalizing the details of the border demarcation between India and Pakistan, representatives of both the Congress and the Muslim League were presenting their respective claims and arguments. On this occasion, the Ahmadiyya community presented its own separate memorandum to the Boundary Commission, and adopting a separate stance from both the Congress and the Muslim League, demanded that Qadian be declared a Vatican City. In this memorandum, they mentioned their population, their separate religion, They recorded the status and other details of their military and civilian employees. As a result, the Ahmadi's demand for a Vatican State was not accepted, but the Boundary Commission benefited from the Ahmadi's memorandum by excluding the Ahmadis from the Muslims and declaring Gurdaspur a district of Muslim minority, handing over its most important areas to India. Thus, not only did the district of Gurdaspur go from Pakistan, but India also got a way to usurp Kashmir, and Kashmir was cut off from Pakistan. Therefore, Syed Mir Noor Ahmed, former Director of Public Instruction, writes about this incident in his memoirs "Martial Law to Martial Law" as follows: But this made it clear that after the award was signed once, changes were made regarding the district of Ferozepur between August 19 and August 20, and a revised award was obtained from Radcliffe. Was the division of Gurdaspur district included in this award, which Radcliffe signed on August 8, or did Mountbatten make new amendments to this part of the award as well? The rumor is the same, and it is confirmed by the Ferozepur district file. If one part of the award could be illegally changed, then this suspicion arises about other parts as well. After the last conversation with Radcliffe, the Muslim members of the Punjab Boundary Commission had the impression that Gurdaspur, which was in any case a district with a Muslim majority, was definitely coming to Pakistan, but when the award was announced, neither the tehsils of Ferozepur district came to Pakistan nor did the district of Gurdaspur (except for Tehsil Shakargarh) become part of Pakistan. There is no record of the lawyers' arguments before the commission. It is difficult to say whether the importance of Tehsil Pathankot of Gurdaspur district from the point of view of Kashmir was mentioned before the commission or not, probably not. Because this aspect was completely irrelevant from the commission's point of view. It is possible that Radcliffe had no knowledge of this point. But Mountbatten knew that Tehsil Pathankot, over here... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug.. 1974 What possibilities could have opened up by being there. And the way the Congress was ready to do all kinds of dishonesty in its favor. Considering this, it is not at all far-fetched to assume that Radcliffe may not have fully understood the consequences and results, and Mountbatten played a major role in this conspiracy against Pakistan. Another point is also worth mentioning regarding the district of Gurdaspur. Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan, who was representing the Muslim League, himself had committed a regrettable act. He presented the viewpoint of the Ahmadiyya community as separate from the general Muslims (who were being represented by the Muslim League). The viewpoint of the Ahmadiyya community was indeed that they would prefer to be included in Pakistan, but when the question was that Muslims were on one side and everyone else on the other, for any community to present itself as separate from the Muslims was tantamount to reducing the numerical strength of the Muslims. Even if the Ahmadiyya community had not done this, perhaps the decision regarding the district of Gurdaspur would have been the same as it was. But this act was very strange in its place. (Daily Mashriq, February 3, 1963) Now, in this regard, also note a reference from Justice Muhammad Munir, a member of the Boundary Commission himself. "Now come to the district of Gurdaspur, was it not a Muslim majority area?" There is no doubt that the Muslim majority in this district was very small, but if Pathankot Tehsil had been included in India, the proportion of Muslim majority in the rest of the district would have automatically increased. Furthermore, why was there a compulsion to divide the Muslim majority tehsil of Shakargarh? If it was necessary to divide this tehsil, then why was the natural border of the Ravi River or one of its corresponding threads not accepted, but rather the western edge of this stream was declared as the border from the point where this stream enters the province of Punjab from the state of Kashmir. Was Gurdaspur given to India for this reason? QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2079 included that at that time there was a determination and intention to keep India connected to Kashmir. In this regard, I am compelled to mention a very unpleasant incident, it has always been incomprehensible to me why the Ahmadis arranged for separate representation. If the Ahmadis did not agree with the position of the Muslim League, the need for separate representation on their part could be understood as a regrettable possibility. Perhaps they wanted to strengthen the position of the Muslim League through separate interpretation. But in this connection, they presented facts and figures for different parts of Shakargarh, in this way the Ahmadis made this aspect easy for us that non-Muslims are in majority in the area between Nala Bheen and Nala Bastar and provided justification for this claim. If the area between Nala Uch and Nala Bheen came into India's part, then the area between Nala Bheen and Nala Bastar would automatically come into India's part. There is no doubt that this area has come into our (Pakistan's) part. But the Ahmadis have created a difficult dilemma for us since then regarding Gurdaspur." (Daily Nawa-e-Waqt, July 7, 1964) The sad aspect of this matter is that on one hand, the Qadianis were giving a memorandum of a separate state to the Radcliffe Commission, and on the other hand, the same Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan was advocating the Pakistani case before the commission, who, according to them, called the Khalifa of his community as absolute authority. Whose belief was that Akhand Bharat is the will of Allah and the requirement of the advent of the promised Messiah, entrusting the Pakistani advocacy to such a person whose conscience could not bear to support Pakistan, what was it if not ignorance, and Chaudhry Zafarullah himself, with such hidden thoughts and motives, taking the Pakistani case in hand, what was it if not hypocrisy? Anyway, while Chaudhry Sahib was fighting the Pakistani case in front of Radcliffe, his Amir and absolute authority Mirza Mahmood Ahmed presented a separate memorandum, in this way the war of this double-edged sword, the three tehsils of Gurdaspur district, Pakistan 2080 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 ended with cutting off and going to India, and also paved the way for cutting off Kashmir from Pakistan. [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali)] Maulvi Mufti Mahmud: Political aims and plans Anti-state political activities Now we examine what are the political aims and endeavors of an organization and movement that apparently calls itself a purely religious party. The Mirza'i gentlemen play several games at the same time. On the one hand, they claim to be a purely religious party under the guise of religion and its propagation, while on the other hand, their political aims and plans continue with great intensity and in an organized manner. And if the majority of Muslims scrutinizes their political activities and intentions, they cry like an oppressed religious minority and call upon the world conscience for assistance. In recent events, Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan sitting in London Khan's lament and the Western world's outcry in response are clear examples of this technique. Political, not religious, organization In this two-sided drama of religion and politics, the real truth is hidden from view, and the world, unaware of the facts, believes that Pakistan's "religious fanatics" are a harmless little group. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2081 want to crush the minority, but what are the facts and realities, should be estimated from the following few references and the practical role of this party in Pakistani politics. Mirza Mahmood Ahmed Sahib said During the Friday sermon in 1922. "We don't know when the charge of the world is entrusted to us by God, we should We should be prepared from our side so that we can handle the world." (Al-Fadl 27 February 29 March 33) Earlier, this speech of Khalifa Mahmood Ahmad was published in Al-Fadl on February 1922. We want to establish Ahmadiyya government." Said in 1935. That until your kingdom is established, these These thorns can never be removed from your path." (Al-Fadl July 1935) In 1935, he expressed his political ambitions as follows: "Until the Ahmadiyya community is able to take over the government, it is necessary It is necessary to maintain this wall (English government)." (Al-Fadl Qadian Soor January 645) After 1925, the Maha desires of acquisition of power were generally found in the writings. Justice Munir has also written on page 209 of his report that: From 1935 to the beginning of 1947, some writings of Ahmadis revealed It appears that they were dreaming of becoming the successors of Britain. (Report Inquiry Murattabat Fasadat Punjab p. 209) Further cover is lifted from these political ambitions from the first European Convention of Jamaat-e-Ahmad held in London in 15th, which was inaugurated by Sir Zafarullah. Daily Jang Rawalpindi 2082 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 August 4, 65, Volume 7, Issue 309, First Edition, it is reported that: LONDON, August 3 (Jang Correspondent) - The Ahmadiyya community's first European convention is being held at the community's London headquarters, in which Ahmadiyya missions from all European countries are participating. The convention was inaugurated yesterday by Sir Zafarullah Khan, a judge of the International Court of Justice in The Hague. The convention will continue until August 8. The community has established its missions in various 75 countries. The community has established 18 centers in Britain. The delegates participating in the convention emphasized that if the Ahmadiyya community comes to power, taxes should be levied on the rich and wealth should be redistributed, usury and interest should be banned, and alcohol consumption should be prohibited. The underlined words in this news mention the proposed reforms in case the Ahmadiyya community comes to power. Can a non-political party consider such possibilities and reforms? The Qadiani State Plan in Pakistan Mirza Mahmood had announced in the beginning of '52 that: If we take courage and work diligently with organization, we can bring about a revolution in '52. (Further stated) Do not let '52 pass without the enemy feeling the awe of Ahmadiyyat in such a way that Ahmadiyyat cannot now be erased, and they are compelled to come into the embrace of Ahmadiyyat." Al-Fazl, January 16 (5) It should be clear that this announcement was made in Rabwah regarding the Qadiani sect holding political, military, and key positions. It was conducted after an important gathering and consultation of key officials, and barely fifteen months had passed when this declaration of revolution manifested itself in the form of the Punjab riots of 1953. In this connection, the current Mirza Nasir Ahmad's announcements of preparing ten thousand horses and several such plans have been appearing so frequently in their newspapers that they are obvious to everyone. This was just a glimpse of political ambitions, and immediately after the establishment of Pakistan, the Mirzais' desire to gain power emerged with great intensity in the following forms: (1) To somehow gain political power throughout the country. (2) Otherwise, at least one province or region should be given the status of a Qadiani state. (3) All internal and external sectors, resources, and means of the country should be used as a means to achieve their goals. (4) All key positions should be occupied. The Role of Sir Zafarullah Khan The implementation of this program and political ambitions was started with great enthusiasm by Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan during his tenure as minister. Chaudhry Sahib used to proudly say that whether he goes to China or America, he will preach Mirzaism everywhere. He considered the Amir of his Jamaat to be absolutely obeyed. He not only considered Ahmadiyyat to be planted by God, but also that if the existence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is removed, it cannot be proven that Islam is a living religion. He used to express such views not only in private gatherings but also openly in Ahmadiyya missionary gatherings while being a government employee. (See Al-Fadl Islamti 52 Karachi's Ahmad's speech at the gathering) After the creation of Pakistan, when such a person was given an important position like the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, under whose supervision was also the establishment of embassies all over the world and the establishment of relations with Pakistan, then... TANISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 Shaykh al-Islam Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani (may he rest in peace) wrote to the then Prime Minister that if this bitter pill of appointing such people to key positions is swallowed today, then be prepared to drink a cup of poison in the future. But this advice could not be effective, and we had to drink not one, but many cups of poison. The Chaudhry Sahib in question, even before the partition, while taking undue advantage of his official position, kept working for Qadiani interests, but after the partition, he increased it even more. With the help of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, he strengthened the Qadiani movement in foreign countries, and from then till now, these people, in the name of their false preaching, have been gaining political, espionage, and imperialist interests against the Islamic world through Pakistan's diplomatic means. Such Qadiani retainers have wasted the country's foreign exchange so mercilessly that whenever such news came, a wave of concern and anxiety ran through the Muslims, and voices were raised in the National Assembly regarding this. The unfortunate situation of the 1953 riots in Punjab arose as a result of such demands, in which the majority, besides other demands, emphasized the removal of Sir Zafarullah and other Mirzais from key positions, but we were so helpless in the hands of their foreign masters, the Western imperialists, that even after the martyrdom of hundreds of Muslims, the then Prime Minister Khawaja Nazimuddin expressed this definite opinion regarding the removal of Sir Zafarullah that he could not take any action in this important matter." (Munir Inquiry 319) It was obvious who was holding such an important position as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, one aspect of whose sad role recently came to light in the form of his press conference in London on June 5, 1974. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2085 The press conference has been published in Pakistani newspapers. Western press, BBC, and Akashvani Bharat launched a propaganda campaign under the title of this press conference, the kind of campaign that ran before the tragedy of East Pakistan. Anyway, this was an example of how much the interests of the country and the nation can be harmed at the hands of these people in the form of holding key positions. A plan to occupy all departments and key positions This campaign and delicate position of key positions are already present in the minds of the Mirzais, and clear proof of their writings, announcements, and program of systematically occupying government departments is found. Mirza Mahmood, while addressing his community, said: Until all the departments have our men in them, we cannot fully utilize them. For example, the major departments are the army, the police, administration, railways, finance, customs, engineering. These are eight or ten major departments through which the community can protect its rights. Young men of our community are joining the army in large numbers, as a result of which Our ratio in the army is much higher than in other departments. And we can't take advantage of it to protect our rights. The remaining departments are empty. Of course, you people should get your boys jobs, but why shouldn't that job be done in a way that benefits the community? Money should also be earned in such a way that every department has our men in it and our voice can reach everywhere." Sermon of Mirza Mahmood Ahmad mentioned in Al-Fazl (August 1, 1952) 2086 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Importance of Key Positions and Arguments for Demand of Separation Seeing this clear program and plans, and the occupation of government departments by Mirzais far exceeding their population, Muslims are rightly anxious. Considering their past behavior, even if they demanded that the recruitment of any Mirzai in any department of the country be stopped for the next ten years, this demand would have been perfectly justified. But Muslims are content with a lesser demand, i.e., removing Qadianis from key positions, the justification of which is not only based on the religious ideology that in an Islamic state, according to the clear instructions of the Quran and Sunnah, no non-Muslim can be appointed to key positions, but also this demand is being made because: (1) These people have been exploiting the quota of Muslims' jobs in the name of Muslims by taking undue advantage of the negligence of Muslims and the extraordinary favors of the British during the previous British era. (2) After the establishment of Pakistan, taking advantage of the negligence or insensitivity of the rulers, this small minority has occupied many more jobs than the population ratio. (3) Individuals holding important positions belonging to this group have left no stone unturned in recruiting their co-religionists and violating the rights of the majority class of Muslims under them. (4) As a result, they have gained a monopoly over all important sectors of the country - military, industrial, economic, administrative, finance, planning, media, etc. - and the fate of the country has passed into the hands of a handful of non-Muslim groups. (5) The leading figures of this group have used their position and office to promote Qadianism within their sphere of influence. With Her Ladyship Lalla Salma They used it for preaching and propagation and followed the same instructions that their Imam and Caliph had given them in '52 and had said that "Mirzai employees should systematically preach Mirzait in their departments." Al-Fadl Arjanwari (52) (1) The responsible individuals of the Mirzais holding key positions have been guilty of betraying the interests of the country and the nation. In this regard, the role of Air Marshal Zafar Chaudhry and several other generals has come before the nation and the government. The role of these people in the context of Bangladesh and the Indo-Pak war is a topic of general and special interest. Based on these few reasons, the continuation of Mirzais in key positions is not only from a religious point of view but also a requirement for the protection of the economic, social, political, and societal interests of the majority of the country and the integrity of the country and the nation. Parallel System of Government After the creation of Pakistan, the political organization of the Ahmadiyya community established a parallel system of government in opposition to the Government of Pakistan. By establishing a settlement of pure Ahmadis at the place of Rabwah, it made it the center of this system of government. The leader of the community is called Amir al-Mu'minin, which is a title designated for the ruler of Muslims. Under this Amir al-Mu'minin, regular Mirza'i state directorates are established in Rabwah. There is a Directorate of Internal Affairs, a Directorate of Publications, a Directorate of Public Affairs, a Directorate of Religious Affairs. These directorates function like departments of a state or empire's system. This system of government has also created a military system in the name of Khuddam-ul-Ahmadiyya. Former soldiers and officers of the "Furqan Battalion" are included in Khuddam-ul-Ahmadiyya. Ahmadi leaders are confident that it is not difficult for them to become the rulers of Pakistan now. Former Khalifa Rabwah Mirza Bashir ud Din Mahmud announced in his annual meeting that "We will be victorious and you will appear before us as criminals, at that time your fate will be the same as what happened to Abu Jahl and his party on the day of the Conquest of Mecca." Plan to occupy Balochistan Before a year had even passed since the creation of Pakistan, on July 23, 1948, the Qadiani Khalifa gave a sermon in Quetta, which was published in Al-Fazl on August 3 in these words: "British Balochistan, which is now Pakistani Balochistan, has a total population of five or six lakhs. Although this population is less than the population of other provinces, it has great importance due to being a unit. Just as individuals have value in the world, units also have value. For example, the Constitution of America. There, the states elect their members to the Senate, it cannot be seen that the population of any state is ten crores or one crore. Equal members are taken from all states. In short, the population of Pakistani Balochistan is 5-6 lakhs. And if the princely state of Balochistan is included, its population is one lakh, but since it is a unit, it has great importance. It is difficult to make a large population Ahmadi, but it is not difficult to make a few people Ahmadi. So if the Jamaat pays full attention to this, this province can be made Ahmadi very soon. Remember that preaching cannot be successful until our BASE is strong. First the BASE should be strong, then the preaching spreads. So first strengthen your BASE, don't"Establish your base somewhere, even if it's in another country. If we could turn the entire province into Ahmadi, then at least one province would be ours, one we could call our own. And this too is possible with heavenly support.” The Mirza'i gentlemen, for the realization of the Qadiani state they dream of, have considered Kashmir suitable from the very beginning. Some reasons for this interest have also been mentioned by Dost Muhammad Shahid, the author of Tarikh-e-Ahmadiyyat, in Volume VI of the book, pages 345 to 479: (a) Qadian is in close proximity to the state of Jammu and Kashmir, which they consider to be the birthplace of their prophet, a sanctuary, and on par with Mecca and Medina, or even superior to them. (Al-Fadl, Amrod, number 32, speech by Mirza Mahmood Sahib (Haqeeqat-ul-Ruya, page 46, by Mirza Mahmood)) And about Qadian, they believe that according to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's prophecy, Qadian will surely belong to the Qadianis. They keep instilling this idea in their young children in their initial curriculum that: "The state of (migration from Qadian) will be temporary; eventually, a time will come when Qadian will be returned to the Ahmadiyya community." (Rah-e-Iman, page 98 - A collection of basic religious information for children) Due to the efforts to maintain the geographical connection between Qadian and Jammu & Kashmir, the Ahmadi memorandum to the Boundary Commission led to the cutting off of the Gurdaspur district from Pakistan, paving the way for India to annex Kashmir. (B) Qadianis claim that Qadiani influence is greater than before in Kashmir. According to Mirza Mahmood, there are approximately eighty thousand Ahmadis there. (C) According to their Messiah, Kashmir is the burial place of the first Messiah (Hazrat Isa), and a large number of followers of the second Messiah are settled there. In a country where two Messiahs have influence, the right to rule belongs only to the Qadianis. (D) When Maharaja Ranjit Singh sent Nawab Imamuddin to Kashmir as governor, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's father was also with him. (E) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's first Khalifa, Hakim Nooruddin, who was the teacher and father-in-law of the second Khalifa, Mirza Mahmood, lived in Kashmir for a long time. Anyway, just as Balochistan caught their attention due to the scarcity of population, their focus on Kashmir in every era was not due to general human sympathy or the welfare of Muslims, but due to past personal and sectarian interests. In this regard, the first conspiracy to make Kashmir a Qadiani state was hatched in 1930 at the behest of British masters. Mirza Bashiruddin's interest in the Kashmir Committee was a product of these political ambitions, which Dr. Iqbal, Muslim leaders, and the joint efforts of common Muslims thwarted. Allama Iqbal, having sensed their political ambitions, began to strongly oppose this movement from there. 1948 War Kashmir and Furqan Battalion In October '47, the third month of the establishment of Pakistan, Pakistan demanded Occupied Kashmir, and when war broke out in '48, the Qadiani community prepared a platoon in the name of Furqan Battalion, which was deployed on the Jammu front. Before this, in their long history, the Mirzais had not been fortunate enough to participate in any trial or tribulation of Muslims, but today they are preparing a Furqan Battalion in the name of the freedom of Kashmir. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION Started offering their lives. At that time, Pakistan's Commander-in-Chief was General Sir Douglas Gracey, who was neither in favor of the Kashmir war nor wanted to use the Pakistani army in Kashmir. It is even said about him that he was passing on some war information to the Commander-in-Chief of India, General Sir Auxin Lake. But on the other hand, the same British Commander-in-Chief gives open permission to an independent force related to the public in this war. The same General Gracey, as Commander-in-Chief, also sent a message of appreciation to the Furqan Battalion, which is also in Tarikh-e-Ahmadiyyat, authored by Dost Muhammad Shahid Qadiani, page 27, and the tract published by Nazarat Dawat-o-Tableegh Rabwah. What services did the Furqan Force perform during this war in Kashmir? There is no room for its details here, but when the achievements of this organization started being discussed in private and in public after this jihad, and statements of Kashmiri leaders Allah Rakha Saghar and Aftab Ahmad, Secretary of Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference, appeared in the newspapers, it caused an uproar in the military leaders and the government of that time. The original statement of Sardar Aftab Ahmad was: What this Furqan Battalion did and the services it rendered to India, the way the youths of the Muslim Mujahideen were bargained for, even shedding tears of blood would be less. Whatever scheme was made, it would reach India; wherever the Mujahideen built a front, the enemy would find out; wherever the Mujahideen made a hideout, Indian planes would arrive. (Tract Nazarat Dawat-o-Tableegh Anjuman Ahmad Sayyid, the reality of Kashmir and Mirzaism) According to Al-Fazl, January 2, 1950, page column, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood raised a hue and cry over these statements and speeches that if we were traitors, why did the government keep us there? In this way, Mirza Bashiruddin gave the signal to expose the treachery of the government and General Gracey of that time as well. Therefore, at that time, General Gracey, on the one hand, mysteriously and immediately disbanded the Furqan Force, and on the other hand, General Gracey himself felt the need to refute the allegation of Aftab Ahmad Khan, but 2092 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug, 1974 According to Mirza Bashir-ud-Din, those who made the allegations, under government pressure, denied it in vague terms, but a month later, the same objection was published again. (See Al-Fazl, January 3, 1950, page [unclear], Mirza Bashir-ud-Din's speech) The question is, if such allegations were false, then why was there a need to disband Furqan Force so quickly? And if these allegations were false, then those who made the allegations kept repeating them publicly for a long time, but why did the government and commander-in-chief of that time not feel the need for a judicial inquiry into it? How and why was a parallel army formed while the Pakistani forces were present? These questions are still unanswered, but these words spoken at that time by Aftab Ahmed Sahib, Secretary of Jammu & Kashmir Muslim Conference, still reflect the truth that the Mirzais have been an obstacle in the path of Azad Kashmir for 30 years (and now 56 years)." Furqan Force, an Ahmadi Battalion and a Parallel Military Organization Therefore, Furqan Force was disbanded at that time, but the parallel rulers of Rabwah believed that the public has a weak memory and there are very few discerning eyes. It was soon maintained in other forms, and now these forces exist in the form of semi-military organizations such as Atfal-ul-Ahmadiyya, Khuddam-ul-Ahmadiyya, Ansarullah, etc. Justice Munir, in his investigative report on the 1953 riots, page 211, besides the existence of Furqan Force, gave the news of the self-made secretariat of the Mirzai state in these words: The Ahmadis are a united and organized group. Their headquarters is located in a purely Ahmadi town where a central organization is established with various departments, such as the Department of Foreign Affairs, Department of Internal Affairs, Department of Public Affairs, Department of Publications, i.e., those departments that a All those who are in a regular secretariat organization are present here. They also have an army of volunteers, which they call Khuddam-ud-Din. The Furqan Battalion is composed of this army and is a purely Ahmadi battalion. (Investigative Report (21) In 1962, this infamous Furqan Force was presented by the Mirzais in such a way against the proud Pakistani forces, mujahideen, and martyrs of the 1965 war that when medals were awarded to the brave mujahideen of the Pakistani forces, announcements like this were published in Al-Fazl. "Those Qadianis who participated in the Kashmir war for 45 days (i.e., December 31, 1948, the date of the ceasefire) by joining the Furqan Force should now create a receipt in the following format, affix their signature on it, have it signed by the Amir of the local Qadiani community, and send it to Malik Muhammad Rafiq Dar-ul-Sadr Arbi, Rabwah. The space for the officer to be addressed should be left blank. These receipts will go from Rabwah to Rawalpindi. From Rawalpindi, the Kashmir Medals of these people will come to Rabwah, and its information will be published in Al-Fazl, and then these medals will be distributed to these Qadianis in Rabwah." (March 23, 1926, Al-Fazl) Wasn't raising the story of the Kashmir Medal against the children orphaned and the marriages ruined in 1965 a mockery of the martyrs of 1965 and their sacrifices? The story of the Qadianis of the Furqan Force receiving the Kashmir Medal 18 years after the Mujahideen of 1965? Exposing this dangerous scandal is the job of the Intelligence Bureau. Considering the delicacy and sanctity of the Department of Defense, we do not want to go into its details. This mention of the Furqan Force in connection with Kashmir was incidental. The seemingly trivial matters that are worth considering in connection with Kashmir are that at every occasion of the Indo-Pak war, why does the command of the borders from Kashmir and Qadian generally remain in the hands of Qadiani generals? Before and after the 1965 war, even during the era of President Ayub... Wealth A Brief Account of the Atrocities of Pakistan August 30, 1971 Why were messages of attacking Kashmir and identifying suitable times for it, and glad tidings of conquering Kashmir, continuously given by Sir Zafarullah and other prominent members of the Mirza community? At the time of partition, the Mirza community betrayed Pakistan by demanding separate rights from the Ministerial Commission. Pakistan is an Islamic ideological country, for whose protection and defense the belief of Jihad acts as a soul, but the group that does not believe in Jihad gradually acquired powerful positions in the Pakistan Armed Forces, and in every instance of Indo-Pakistani war, they refrained from performing their duties. In the recent Sadai Tribunal, the statement of Qadiani witness Mirza Abdul Sami etc. has come to light that they do not consider the 1965 war as Jihad. In the fall of East Pakistan, the fundamental part is played by the influential members of the Mirza community in the forces and corridors of power, many facts of which can be presented in due time. In this regard, Sir Zafarullah's efforts between Yahya and Mujib during the war were not meaningless. The Ahmadi Mirza community not only took part in the Rawalpindi Conspiracy Case but they were its founders, which has been proven in court. As a result of the Mirza community's intrigues, the country faced the curse of martial law for the first time in 1953. Conclusion After reading these details based on clear evidence, no misunderstanding remains regarding the political and religious existence of the Mirza community. Each reference is complete in itself and presents an accurate picture of its aims and objectives. These are the reasons why all sects of Muslims have unanimously declared the Mirza community as rebels of Islam and their followers as out of the circle of Islam. The circumstances, consequences, effects, and manifestations of this movement are known to all Muslims. DELIBERATIONS QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION The demand to declare Mirzais as a non-Muslim minority is not new, but Allama Iqbal, long before the creation of Pakistan, wrote while addressing the British government: "We should not forget the strategy of the Qadianis and their attitude towards the Islamic world. When the Qadianis adopt a policy of separation in religious and social matters, then why are they so eager to be included among Muslims politically? The Muslim community has every right to demand that the Qadianis be separated. If the government does not accept this demand, Muslims will suspect that the government is delaying the separation of this new religion." (Letter to Stemmen, June 1935) Allama Iqbal, while shaking up the government's behavior, further stated: "If this group is useful to the government, it is fully authorized to reward this service, but it is difficult for this nation to ignore it, whose collective existence is threatened by it." In view of these evidences and precedents, we consider it our national and communal duty to request you to not only keep a close watch on the activities of this fifth column of European imperialism but also to declare this group a minority in Pakistan and determine their limits and rights in terms of population. Otherwise, the Mirzais will continue to be a constant threat to the country and the nation due to the colonial powers, and God forbid, lest the country and the nation should face a tragedy that has become an Israeli cancer for the collective life of the Arab Islamic nation today. 2096 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Last Heartfelt Report Honorable Members of the Assembly, Although our submissions regarding Mirzaism have become somewhat lengthy despite keeping brevity in mind, the tale of Mirzaism's oppression upon the Muslim Ummah is so long that even after darkening two hundred pages, we repeatedly feel that a large part of the important points that needed to be presented before the Honorable Members are still remaining. The Muslim community has been enduring the oppression of Mirzaism for almost ninety years. The long campaign that this religion has been waging to undermine Islam in the name of Islam, a glimpse of it has already come before you in the previous pages. The fundamental beliefs of Islam have been torn to shreds, the Quranic verses have been openly mocked, the Prophet's traditions have been made a plaything. Open mud has been slung at the prophets, the holy group of companions, the great Ahl al-Bayt, and the venerable personalities of Islam. Islamic symbols have been openly insulted, to the extent that a character like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has been placed alongside that Mercy to the Worlds, peace be upon him, and even attempts have been made to elevate him further, before whose greatness and eminence the angels also bow their heads in humility, by whose blessed name the honor of humanity is preserved, and before the generosity of whose cloak of mercy, the boundaries of East and West are meaningless. Mirzaism has been engaged in conspiracies against the devotees of that same Mercy to the Worlds (peace be upon him) for ninety years. It has always tried to stab the Muslim Ummah in the back by disguising itself as Islam and to provide internal bases for the intentions of the enemies of Islam. It has lit lamps of ghee over the massacre of the sons of monotheism and the dishonoring of Muslim women in various parts of the Islamic world. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2007 has burned, and by presenting itself as a part of the Muslim Ummah, it has performed services for the enemies of Islam that its open enemies could not have performed. The Muslim community has been enduring these atrocities of Mirzaism for ninety years. Due to these oppressions, all Muslims and the painter of Pakistan, Allama Iqbal (may God have mercy on him), demanded from the British government of his time that the followers of the Mirza'i religion should be declared a non-Muslim minority and separated from the body of Muslims. But he was born in the era of a government that had cultivated the plant of Mirzaism itself and which had always adopted a policy of patting Mirzaism on the back for its own interests. Therefore, the cries of the entire Islamic community, and especially Allama Iqbal, which were full of pain always collided with the halls of government. Muslims were helpless, so they could do nothing but endure the oppression of Mirzaism. Today, the interpretation of the dreams of the same painter of Pakistan is before us in the form of Pakistan. Here we were not under any foreign government but it is a pity that even after twenty-seven years, we could not fulfill this inevitable need of the Muslim community, its long-standing demand, and the requirement of truth and justice, and during this time at the hands of Mirzaism hundreds more wounds have been inflicted. Honorable Members of the Assembly! Now, after a long wait, this important issue has been entrusted to you, and not only Pakistan but the entire Islamic world is watching you, the entire Muslim world is looking towards you, and those Muslims dwelling in paradise are awaiting your decision who sacrificed their lives on the thorns laid by Mirzaism in the dark night of slavery, who kept calling for truth and justice but their voices were not heard, and who for twenty-seven years have been looking towards this Muslim state which is the interpretation of the dreams of freedom, which was established in the name of Islam and which was obtained as a haven for Muslims after two years of slavery. 2098 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug. 1974 Honorable members! Muslims do not want to oppress anyone. The demand of Muslims is only this that the Mirza'i community, which has openly separated itself from Islam, should be declared a non-Muslim minority. who have denied the accepted beliefs of Islam, who have openly called seventy crore Muslims infidels, and who have practically cut themselves off from the Islamic community. Their places of worship are separate from the Muslims, marriage relations between them and the Muslims are both considered illegitimate and the courts have declared such relations illegal. Muslims do not consider it permissible to participate in the funerals of Mirzais and Mirzais of Muslims, and their all relations with their co-religionists have been severed. The first step by the Assembly to the Mirzais Declaring non-Muslim minority will not be a surprise or an artificial step, but it will be a clear and open It will be a formal recognition of the fact that it has already established itself in the Islamic world. Last In the pages, you have seen that the proposal to declare Mirzais as non-Muslim minority is such a proposal It is not something that has been temporarily created by personal animosity or political strife, but it is from the Holy Quran. of the clear verses, of the hundreds of sayings of the Seal of the Prophets, of all the Companions and Successors and Jurists and of the Muhaddithin, of all the courts and governments of the history of Islam, of the entire history of the religions of the world, of the world of the existing seventy crore Muslims, of the early painters of Pakistan, of the confessions of the Mirza'i leaders themselves It is a decision of statements and their ninety-year course of action, and its denial is the denial of the existence of the sun at noon. Since the Mirza'i groups, by presenting themselves as Muslims, are against the interests of the Muslim Ummah They are engaged in actions, therefore, at this time, such an atmosphere of hatred and animosity prevails between them and the Muslims, which not with other people of religion. There is no solution to this situation except this Mirzais should be officially declared a non-Muslim minority. Its Like other minorities, the protection of the lives and property of the Mirzais will also be the responsibility of the Muslims. Muslims have always treated the non-Muslim residents of their country with extreme generosity and tolerance. Therefore, after officially declaring the Mirzais as a non-minority at the government level, the protection of their lives and property in the country will be greater, and the fire of hatred that flares up from time to time will not be a threat to the integrity of the country. Therefore, in the name of Allah, in the name of the intercessor of the Day of Judgment, peace be upon him, in the name of the Quran and Sunnah and the consensus of the Muslim Ummah, in the name of truth and justice, and in the name of honesty and truth, we appeal to you in the name of the seventy crore Muslims of the world not to be influenced by any kind of pressure in fulfilling this demand of the Muslim Ummah. And worry about attaining the pleasure of Allah and His Messenger, whose intercession is our last resort in the field of resurrection. If we do not fulfill this responsibility, the Muslim Ummah will never forgive us. Power and authority fade away, but the stain of wrong decisions does not disappear even after death. May Allah Almighty grant you the ability to make the right decision. (Movers of the Resolution) Conscience Number 1 Decision Bahawalpur Case Mahfil Irshad, Sialkot QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Dedication I have the honor of dedicating this publication to Hazrat Imam Rabbani Qayyum Dorani Qutb Zamani Mujaddid Alf Thani Al-Sheikh Ahmad Sirhindi Al-Farooqi Quds Sirra Asmani, and I pray with utmost humility and supplication in the court of God, Lord of Glory, that the True Master, through the blessing of His Beloved and the grace of Hazrat Mujaddid (may God have mercy on him), which has reached us through my esteemed Hazrat Hafiz Syed Irshad Hussain Sirhindi (may God have mercy on him), may grant us the ability that we, the unqualified, may revive the Sunnah of Hazrat Mujaddid (may God have mercy on him) for which he came into this world, and by confronting the false forces like infidelity and heresy, polytheism and innovation, shatter them into pieces and illuminate every corner of the world with the light of truth and honesty. Dust of the feet of the dogs of Mujaddid Alf Thani Syed Akhtar Hussain Sirhindi 2102 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug. 1974 Numerous religions reside on the land of India; Islam is religiously deeper than all those religions because the basis of those religions is to some extent religious and to some extent racial. Islam completely negates racial imagination and bases itself purely on religious imagination, and since its foundation is purely religious, it is wholly spiritual and more subtle than blood relations. That is why Muslims are more sensitive to movements that are dangerous to its unity. Therefore, any religious group that is historically associated with Islam but bases itself on a new prophethood and, in its own opinion, considers all Muslims who do not believe in its inspirations to be infidels, Muslims will consider it a threat to the unity of Islam, and this is because Islamic unity is based on the finality of prophethood. Iqbal Welcome of this decision by religious scholars and leaders of the community NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 At the beginning of the fourteenth century, when Mirza of Qadian claimed prophethood, scholars from the East and the West issued a fatwa of his disbelief and apostasy. In this connection, thirty-five years ago, this issue was presented in the court of Bahawalpur, on which Hazrat Maulana Anwar Shah Sahib, former President Al-Mudarriseen Darul Uloom Deoband and other senior scholars of India presented their statements in the court in this regard, in which they explained the reasons for the disbelief of Mirza of Qadian, the gist of which was that even if Mirza of Qadian did not claim prophethood hypothetically, he would still be completely out of the bounds of Islam. Respected Justice Muhammad Akbar Sahib (Bahawalpur), may Allah illuminate his grave, issued a very wise, just, and intelligent decision that the claimant of prophethood and his followers are absolutely out of the bounds of Islam and they cannot establish any marital relationship among Muslims according to Sharia. By the grace of Allah, this decision of the honorable judge was in accordance with the law of Sharia and also in accordance with the law of the government, which was so firm and strong in terms of Sharia and legal status that no one dared to criticize or comment on this firm decision in the future or appeal it in any higher court because that decision was so firm, conclusive, and immutable that there was no room for questioning it. Muhammad Idris Kandhlawi QALIANA BOSNA I am very pleased to learn that Mr. Muhammad Akbar Khan, B.A. LL.B., District Judge Bahawalpur's famous and well-known verdict, in which Qadianis were declared infidels and outside the pale of Islam, is being re-published. This is a clear fact on which the Muslim Ummah is in consensus, that whoever claims to hold the office of prophethood after our leader Ahmad, peace and blessings be upon him, and whoever accepts this claim, both are undoubtedly infidels and apostates despite claiming to be Muslims. Therefore, it is necessary that the religious and scholarly aspects of this issue continue to be clarified. The decision of the Bahawalpur court is of great importance and benefit in this regard. It was the settlement of a suit for the annulment of marriage based on the apostasy of the spouse, which remained under consideration for almost three years. In it, Muslims and Qadianis presented their respective positions with full arguments and evidence. Their famous scholars and dignitaries appeared as witnesses, and the Honorable Judge, after full investigation and scrutiny, issued this decision that Qadianis, based on their beliefs and actions, are not Muslims but infidels. This valuable document has been rare for a long time after being printed. My prayer is that this effort proves to be a source of guidance for both Muslims and Qadianis. Amen. Abul Ala Maududi 5-A Zaildar Park, Ichhra FARIDIAN [30th Aug., 1974 This decision has not only made Muslims aware of the aims and beliefs of Qadianism, but Mirzaism has also been revealed with its true features. This decision will always be memorable in the mental history of the Muslims of the subcontinent. And whenever the laws of Pakistan take Islamic form, this decision will be highly respected, but this decision will be a beacon. The Muslim community is grateful for this decision of Justice Muhammad Akbar Khan Marhoom (Bahawalpur). May Allah Almighty forgive him and grant him Paradise. Shorish Kashmiri This epic decision was written by Muhammad Akbar Khan. In this decision, Hajj Sahib Marhoom has listed the arguments for the exclusion of Mirzaism from Islam with great detail and has provided evidence of their disbelief and apostasy from the Mirzaite literature. I understand that this decision outweighs many books written on the subject of Mirzaism. Ehsan Elahi Zaheer QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 4107 The completion of religion and the finality of Prophethood are synonymous truths, and the eternity and perfection of Islam depend on these two principles. Blessed are those who have rendered services through various means to protect this fundamental issue of Islam as much as they could. In this regard, the historical decision of Mr. Muhammad Akbar Sahib (may God have mercy on him), District Judge Bahawalpur, is a unique step of its kind. The deceased, through his courage of faith, secured the means of his salvation and left behind such a radiant lamp for the Muslim Ummah that, God willing, will continue to spread the light of truth and honesty until the end of time. It is necessary to publicize this historical decision as much as possible. Syed Faizul Hassan The issue of the finality of Prophethood is one of the necessities of religion. It is a pity that people have started debating and scrutinizing such an issue by declaring it a moral issue, which has opened the door to deviation and the Fitna of apostasy has gained momentum. In this environment, the services of scholars are certainly commendable. But the achievement of Honorable Judge Akbar Sahib (may God have mercy on him) in this regard is extremely commendable and worthy of being written in gold in Islamic history. Syed Ahmed Saeed Kazmi 2108 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 The decision of the Bahawalpur case is a beacon of light for Muslims. The belief in the finality of Prophethood is a fundamental concept of Islam, and indeed, anyone who claims Prophethood after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is outside the pale of Islam. Saving the Muslim community from this great tribulation is a great service to Islam. Syed Mahmood Ahmad Rizvi The decision of the Bahawalpur case is the most important event of the Era of Sadiq. Renowned scholars such as Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, Hazrat Maulana Ghulam Muhammad Ghotvi, and Syed Ataullah Shah Sahib Bukhari pursued this case. Their unparalleled attention and historic efforts shattered the idol of Qadianism into pieces. This decision is the result of Justice Muhammad Akbar's exemplary performance, extraordinary ability, and commendable perseverance. This decision has exposed the misleading status of Qadianism forever. Brigadier Nasir Ali Shah All praise is due to Allah alone, and blessings and peace be upon the one after whom there is no prophet. A case of dissolution of marriage was filed in the court of Muhammad Akbar Noorullah Marqaduhu, in which it had to be decided whether the marriage of a Qadiani to a Muslim woman was liable to be dissolved due to the apostasy of the Qadianis or not. In this context, the issue of the apostasy of the Qadianis came under discussion. Religious experts from both sides gathered. After detailed textual and rational arguments were recorded, Mr. Judge Sahib issued the ruling of apostasy of the Qadianis and gave the decision of annulment. This decision had some relation to the denial of the finality of Prophethood, on which there are so many proofs from numerous verses of the Holy Quran, countless authentic hadiths, and the consensus of the Ummah, that there are no such proofs on any issue other than the Oneness of God. Hundreds of misguided Islamic sects have arisen in Islam, but everyone has agreed on the issue of the finality of Prophethood, and therefore the enemies of Islam have not been able to crack this fundamental building of Islam. From the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) until now, which is 1393 Rabi' al-Awwal and April 1973, the entire Muslim Ummah has been united and firm on this belief for almost fourteen hundred years, due to which the original beliefs of Islam are alive, that the office of Prophethood has been stopped after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and the claimant of Prophethood and his followers are apostates and out of Islam, even if they claim to be Muslims, just as a person is not a Commissioner, Deputy Commissioner, Tehsildar, Thanedar, or even a government peon just by claiming to be one, if his name is not on the government list and the government declares these claimants to be liars, then Islam… on Aug, 1974 How can a man be considered a Muslim without realizing the reality of Islam, while the basic belief of the reality of Islam is not present in him, and only some signs of outward Islam are present in him? Just like a picture or photo of a horse cannot be a real horse, nor can it pull a carriage because that is the job of a real horse. Intellectual unity is necessary for the practical unity of the nation, and the foundation of a stable thought is belief. When this foundation is shaken, the building of the Muslim nation and community will collapse. Therefore, the unity of the nation is connected to the finality of prophethood. Iqbal (may he rest in peace) has rightly said: "La Nabi Ba'di is from the grace of God, it is the veil of the honor of the religion of Mustafa. So that this unity does not leave our hands, our existence remains eternally intertwined." From this, it is clear that the ideological unity for the stability of Pakistan is Islam and the finality of prophethood. Those who establish a separate religion from the belief of 950 million Muslims, in which there is denial and insult of the Quran, Hadith, God, and the Messenger, are undermining the Islamic fort and are outside the pale of Islam. In this matter, the Bahawalpur case is a historical achievement. Shams-ul-Haq Afghani, may he be pardoned. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2111 The decision of the Bahawalpur case is the result of the united efforts and endeavors of the Ummah of Muhammad, may blessings and peace be upon him. May Allah Almighty have undoubtedly blessed the sacred souls of Maulana Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, Maulana Ghulam Muhammad Sahib Ghotvi, Maulana Muhammad Sadiq Sahib Bahawalpuri, and Honorable Justice Muhammad Akbar Sahib with a high position in the highest of heavens. The favor they did to the deceased Ummah is equal for the Muslims of the world. May Allah Almighty grant every Muslim the ability to understand the special status and greatness of the Seal of the Prophets. Amen. Muhammad Abdul Qadir Azad Khateeb Badshahi Mosque & Mufti Punjab We praise Him and send blessings upon His noble Messenger. If anyone is a Muslim, they cannot have a different opinion regarding the decision of the Bahawalpur case. Hazrat Maulana Syed Anwar Shah Kashmiri, may God have mercy on him, and other elders and scholars, by pursuing this case, performed a valuable service to the religion of Islam. May Allah Almighty elevate their ranks and grant all of us the ability to follow in their footsteps. Muhammad Ahmad, may he be forgiven Mirwaiz Kashmir NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 30th, 1974 God willing, when this decision is published in book form, it will prove to be a source of satisfaction and guidance regarding the belief in the finality of Prophethood. Faqir Mehboob ur Rahman Ali Allah Anhu Eidgah, Rawalpindi It is the unanimous decree of all Islamic scholars that no type of prophethood can be considered permissible after the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. One who makes such a claim is outside the bounds of Islam. In Pakistan and India, the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani are a separate group from Muslims. Its complete account is present in the detailed and reasoned decision of Justice Muhammad Akbar Khan Sahib, formerly of the State of Bahawalpur. This decision is a beacon of guidance for the general public and prominent Muslims. Mufti Muhammad Hussain Naeem, Nazim Darul Uloom Jamia Naeemia Lahore QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. My belief regarding the finality of Prophethood is this: The religion of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, consists of two aspects. One is the outward, that is, the rational, intellectual, and theoretical aspect, and the other is the spiritual, that is, beyond the rational realm. In my opinion, the foundation of the outward aspect in our religion rests on the spiritual aspect; otherwise, there would perhaps be no need for any prophet or messenger. The outward aspect is like the means of travel, and the spiritual is like a destination. That is, the means of travel are determined by the destination or purpose. In the rational reasoning about the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, being the last prophet, the effect of doubts and illusions is found, but in the other aspect, not a single exception exists. The more I have pondered over it, I have always, without exception, reached this one conclusion: that the person who does not believe from the heart and soul that Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, is the last prophet of God, that is, his saying "There shall be no prophet after me," cannot be a Muslim. Whatever the rational decree may be, the truth is this. In the book under consideration as well, a person of firm belief has demonstrated courage of faith and, at the same time, has inquired about the opinion of reason and intellect and made the right decision. This decision of the deceased is a continuous charity. May Allah Almighty grant all of us Muslims firmness of faith. Amen. Muhammad Abdul Qayyum President of Azad Kashmir, Presidential Palace Muzaffarabad 2113 2114 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974. In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All praise is due to Allah, the One, and blessings upon him after whom there is no prophet. Approximately 40 years ago, the deceit and fraud of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was flourishing under the ominous shadow of the British. The English-educated class was not only unaware of the QadianiFitna, but also praised and supported the claimant of prophethood, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. Furthermore, this seditious apostasy was patronized by all the powers under the influence of the British Crown and the Viceroy of India. At such a time, the respected Muhammad Akbar Sahib Marhoom wa Maghfoor (Bahawalpur), after listening to the arguments of the leading scholars of the subcontinent, especially Muhaddith-e-Azam Hazrat Maulana Syed Anwar Shah Sahib Kashmiri, demonstrated courage of faith and perfect belief in the doctrine of the finality of prophethood, and declared Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani a liar and his followers apostates and out of Islam, and issued that historic verdict under the name of "Decision of Bahawalpur," which will always be a beacon for Muslims, and following in his footsteps, another Muhammad Akbar Sahib, of the same name, and now some judge from Sindh, have also made the same decisions. The truth is that the late Muhammad Akbar Sahib of Bahawalpur will be considered the first and last letter of this golden chapter of history. The republication of this decision is a highly commendable step. Lawyers and the new generation will gain guidance from it. May God grant the deceased a place at the feet of the Crown of Madinah, including me (Amen). Servant Abdul Hakeem Ali Allah Anhu (Member National Assembly of Pakistan) Madrasah Farooqia Bind Rawalpindi In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Undoubtedly, the presence of the Prophet of both worlds, peace and blessings be upon him, is the Seal of the Prophets. And the entire Ummah is in agreement that after Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, no shadow, reflected, or any kind of prophet can come, and the door of prophethood has been closed upon him until the Day of Judgment. In this sensitive era, when various kinds of tribulations are rising up against Islam, spending one's time, money, and courage for the tribulation of Mirzaism and to prevent it is a cause for reward. Humble, Mufti Muhammad Mukhtar Ahmed, Khateeb Sialkot August 13th, 1974 In His Exalted Name Praise be to Allah alone, who has no partner, and blessings and peace be upon our master Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, after whom there is no Prophet, and upon his companions, wives, and descendants who spread and guided and followed his guidance. To proceed: The belief in the finality of Prophethood is the unanimous belief of the people of Islam, which even false sects have not dared to deny. And in the fourteen hundred years until now, all Islamic sects that have come into existence have affirmed and acknowledged this belief. It is counted among the necessities of the religion, meaning that its Islamic belief is so clear that no Muslim can have any doubt or suspicion about it. And it is an accepted rule that denial of any of the necessities of the religion or doubt in it is rebellion against Islam and pure disbelief. Furthermore, interpretation of it cannot save its speaker from disbelief, just as its denier is a disbeliever, so too is its interpreter a disbeliever. The truth is that after understanding the meaning of the finality of Prophethood, no person who claims to be a Muslim can dare to deny it or interpret it. It is a very simple matter that Prophethood began with Adam, peace be upon him, and ended with Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. And now, in this era, preventing this sedition is also an important duty among the duties of Muslims; indeed, the path to salvation is this. And this book, which holds the status of a guiding light for Muslims, and is a It is a continuous charity. May Allah Almighty give all Muslims the courage to stop this discord. Amen, then Amen. Syed Muhammad Shamsuddin (Deputy Speaker Provincial Assembly Balochistan) Lgh 1914 Musammat Ghulam Aisha, daughter of Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh, caste Mullah, age 18-19 years, resident of Sikandar Ahmad Pur Sharqia, through attorney Ilahi Bakhsh, son of Mahmood Lat, resident of Ahmad Pur Sharqia, teacher at Arabic school. In the name of Abdul Razzaq, son of Maulvi Jan Muhammad, caste Bajwa, age 23 years, resident of Mouza Band, Tehsil Ahmad Pur Sharqia. Currently residing in Mailsi city, Gauge Reader, Sub-Division Canals, Mailsi, District Multan. Claim for obtaining a declaratory decree indicating annulment of marriage. The parties due to the apostasy of the husband/defendant. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2119 This is a case of special nature and importance, which was filed in 1926 and has already gone through the final stages of appeal once. Since 1932, it has been under hearing in this court in its initial capacity with a new glory and style. The facts, in brief, are that Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh, the father of the plaintiff, and Maulvi Abdur Razzaq, the defendant, are mutual relatives. Initially, both of them used to live in the Dera Ghazi Khan area. Abdur Razzaq's sister was married to Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh, and Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh had married his daughter, Musammat Ghulam Aisha, the plaintiff, to Abdur Razzaq, the defendant, during her minority. This girl was from his previous wife, and her marriage took place at the initial residence of the parties. After that, Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh moved from there and settled in the area of this state. In the year Kila, he took up a job with a landlord in Mouza Mahand, Tehsil Ahmedpur Sharqia, to teach Arabic. The plaintiff claims that after a year, the defendant also moved from there with his mother and two sisters and came to Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh in Mouza Mahand. He left his family there and kept wandering to different places for livelihood. During his stay in Mouza Mahand, he deviated from his previous beliefs and embraced the Mirza'i religion and continued to declare his Qadiani Mirza'i beliefs there. After that, he requested Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh for the farewell of the plaintiff. To this, he replied that as long as he does not abandon the Mirza'i religion, the plaintiff's arm will not be handed over to him. Therefore, the defendant remained in pursuit of the plaintiff's farewell for some time. But he kept getting the same answer that the plaintiff could not be handed over to him as long as he adhered to the Mirza'i religion. When he saw no hope of success, he again left the state and moved to the British India area and settled in the area of Tehsil Lodhran near the borders of this state. 2120 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 was adopted. The questions of when the defendant abandoned residence from the limits of the state, and where and when he adopted the Mirza'i or Ahmadi religion will be discussed further. Here, it is only recorded that a tension arose between the plaintiff's father and the defendant over the plaintiff's dower, and the plaintiff's father, as her attorney, filed this claim against the defendant on July 24, 1926, stating that the plaintiff is still a minor. She is now about to turn major in two years. The defendant's wife has abandoned the religion of Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat and has adopted the Qadiani, Mirza'i religion, and for this reason, he has become an apostate. Due to his apostasy, the plaintiff is no longer his wife because he has become a Kafir (infidel) according to Sharia. And according to the orders of Sharia Sharif, due to the apostasy of the defendant, the plaintiff is entitled to the dissolution of the marriage. Therefore, a decree of annulment of marriage should be issued in favor of the plaintiff, and it should be declared that the plaintiff is not legally married to him due to the defendant becoming a Mirza'i, and the marriage has not remained valid due to the apostasy of the defendant. In response, the defendant has stated that he has not changed any religion, nor is he outside the circle of Islam. Rather, he is still a Muslim and fully adheres to the Sharia. Ahmadi is not a separate religion, nor is he a Mirza'i, nor a Qadiani. The marriage is valid and completable in every way. Due to Ahmadi beliefs, which refer to religious competence, one does not become an apostate. The High Court Chief Court of Bahawalpur, Madras, and other High Courts have already decided that the Muslims of the Ahmadiyya community are from a reformed sect, not apostates or infidels. The claim is illegitimate and rejectable, and that the basis of the claim 'cannot be established in the state of Bahawalpur. Because neither of the parties has resided there, nor has the defendant conducted any campaign for conversion there. Moreover, initiating a campaign for conversion at any place cannot be considered as the basis for the claim. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2121 The suit should be heard where the defendant permanently resides or where the cause of action arose. Since the defendant's permanent residence in the present case is in the Multan area and the marriage took place in the Dera Ghazi Khan district, the suit cannot be heard within these jurisdictions. This suit was initially filed in the court of the Civil Judge of Ahmedpur East. After recording brief statements from both parties, the Civil Judge of Ahmedpur East framed the following issues on November 4, 1926: 1. Whether the defendant has adopted the Qadiani or Mirza'i religion, and if so, whether it necessitates apostasy. 2. If the above issue is proven by the plaintiff, whether the marriage between the parties is liable to be annulled? In proving these issues, the plaintiff presented the defendant himself as a witness in the said court. On December 5, 1936, the defendant stated that it was correct that he acknowledged Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Promised Messiah and also accepted him as a prophet, in the sense that Mirza Sahib was a follower of the Holy Prophet (Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (PBUH)) and adhered to his Sharia, and that he attained the rank of prophethood due to his servitude to the Holy Prophet (PBUH). And this is still his belief. It is as if he has joined the Ahmadiyya movement. He calls Mirza Sahib a prophet in the sense that the Holy Quran presents prophethood, just as other prophets (peace be upon them) to whom revelation and inspiration came. Since he accepts Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet, he also believes that angels and Gabriel (peace be upon him) descended upon him, like other prophets (peace be upon them). Considering this statement, the Civil Judge of Ahmedpur East framed this additional issue on January 20, 1927: Whether, in light of the belief expressed by the defendant that he accepts Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet, in the sense that Mirza Sahib received revelation like other prophets (peace be upon them). 2122 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 Inspirations were revealed. Can a person remain in the religion of Islam? And the burden of proof rests on the defendant. After that, the defendant submitted an application on February 19, 1927, stating that in his previous statement, he had clearly explained his religious beliefs. But the court's conclusion is contrary to his original religious belief. Since a misinterpretation of religious belief significantly affects the case, the defendant states his religious belief below to avoid any misunderstanding. I believe in Allah Almighty as the One and only. I accept Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace be upon him) as the Seal of the Prophets. I believe in the Holy Quran as the complete divinely revealed book. I have faith in the Kalima Tayyiba. And through the blessing and mediation of Hazrat Muhammad (peace be upon him) and obedience to his sacred Sharia, I accept Hazrat Mirza Sahib as a follower prophet. Hazrat Mirza Sahib did not bring any new Sharia. Rather, he is the one who propagates and spreads the Sharia of Muhammad. Revelation and inspiration were bestowed upon him through the blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). In this application, it was requested that the issue framed on the previous date is incorrect. The issue should be framed in the following words: Whether the defendant, whose religious belief is as stated above, is an apostate and not a Muslim? And the burden of proof should rest on the plaintiff. But the court paid no attention to this request and included it in the file. After that, by order of May 1927, the Chief Court of the High Court transferred this case to this court. And in this court, in December 1927, the defendant again presented a list of his beliefs. Which will be mentioned in the appropriate place. This case was dismissed by this court on November 21, 1928, on the grounds that the Chief Court of the High Court of Bahawalpur had issued an injunction in a similar case titled Musmat Jandoddi vs. Karim Bakhsh. The judgments of the High Court of Madras, Sindh, and Punjab have already established that Ahmadis are a sect of Muslims, not outside of Islam. And a Sunni woman's marriage to a person who adopts the Mirza'i religion does not become void by his acceptance of that religion. And that no evidence has been presented by the plaintiff against these judgments. This court's order remained upheld by the appellate High Court (Chief Court), but on the second appeal, the High Court special bench ruled that the plaintiff's claim was dismissed by this court without discussing the documents presented by the parties. And the honorable judges of the Chief Court have acknowledged in their decision that the judgments of the Patna and Punjab High Courts cannot be applied in this case because irrelevant questions were under discussion in them. However, the judgment of the Madras High Court, as stated in A. Indian Cases 66, the question under discussion was exactly whether apostasy occurs upon becoming Ahmadi or not. However, we have carefully studied this decision. We disagree with the opinion of the honorable judges of the Chief Court that the aforementioned decision was reached after a complete investigation because the honorable judge of the Madras High Court himself admits in the decision that no specific evidence was presented to him as to what the fundamental principles of Islam are, and to what extent or degree differing from them results in apostasy, or which Islamic beliefs to follow or not follow for apostasy to occur. In this decision, the honorable judge then acknowledges that Islamic scholars can better decide the question of whether apostasy occurs due to Qadiani beliefs or not. Therefore, in our opinion, the honorable judges of the High Court's decision is not definitive on the question under discussion, and we do not need to follow it in this case. With this resolution, this case is returned with the instruction that although the statement of Maulvi Ghulam Muhammad Sahib, Sheikh-ul-Jamia - Jamia Abbasia Bahawalpur, makes it clear that if a person believes according to Qadiani beliefs that another prophet has come after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and this... Because revelation has been sent to him, such a person is an apostate since he denies the finality of prophethood of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, and the finality of prophethood is one of the necessities of Islam and is outside the bounds of Islam. However, we do not consider the opinion of the Sheikh al-Jamia sufficient to decide this case unless other major religious scholars of India also agree with this opinion. Therefore, the case requires further investigation, and the defendant should also be given an opportunity to present his arguments against the Sheikh al-Jamia. Upon return, sectarianism began in this case among people of the same religion and ideology from both sides, and a stir arose regarding it in almost all of India. Large scholars from both sides' groups began to appear as representatives and witnesses. Their appearance in this manner naturally made this question attractive to the public, and the public developed a special interest in it, with people flocking to the courtroom on every hearing date. Therefore, considering the public's interest and religious enthusiasm, the need for police assistance was felt to maintain law and order. At the request of this court, the Honorable Commissioner of Police arranged for adequate police presence on every hearing date. Besides being related to matters of reverence and sanctity, the case also implicitly included the excommunication of the defendant's like-minded group. Therefore, both sides were given ample opportunity to openly present their arguments, documents, and written and oral debates in this case, to the extent that sometimes a whole month was spent on the statement and cross-examination of a single witness from the defendant's side, and the written arguments presented by him consisted of several hundred pages. The delay in the decision is mostly due to the file becoming so voluminous. During the hearing of this case, on August 23, 1932, the defendant filed a lawsuit against the plaintiff and her father, Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh, in the court of the Sub-Judge, Second Class, Multan, for restitution of From QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Rights of Husband and Wife, filed a case against both of them in the aforementioned court and obtained an ex-parte decree on June, 1933. And in this case, while the evidence of both parties was completed and arguments from the plaintiff's side had also been heard, the defendant raised the objection that this court does not have the jurisdiction to hear this case because the cause of action did not arise within the boundaries of this state, nor does the defendant reside temporarily or permanently within this state. Secondly, a decree for restitution of conjugal rights against the plaintiff Wali Baksh Waldash has been issued by the British government court in favor of the defendant. Therefore, according to Section 11 of the Civil Procedure Code, this court does not have the right to decide on it. And that according to Sections 13-14 of the Civil Procedure Code, the said decree has become final. And after its issuance, the case under hearing in this court cannot proceed. These objections of the defendant, due to their relation to the jurisdiction of this court, were considered important and the following additional inquiries were added in this case on November 18, 1933. 1. Was the defendant residing in Ahad, within this district, at the time of filing this suit? Or did the cause of action arise within the boundaries of this district, so the suit is admissible in this court? 2. If the above inquiry is decided against the plaintiff, can the question of the jurisdiction of this court be raised at this stage, when the case has already reached the higher courts and the defendant has been continuously pursuing it? 3. Does the decree of a foreign country issued in favor of the defendant and against the plaintiff, obstruct the hearing of this case under Sections 13-14 of the Civil Procedure Code? Before formulating these inquiries, an application containing the above-mentioned objections was received from the defendant in the High Department of the Ministry of Justice to be presented before His Highness the Exalted Government, Dam Iqbala Wa Malikinha, which was for consideration. 2320 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 was sent to this court. After studying this application, it was deemed necessary to resolve the aforementioned legal objections before the defendant presents their arguments. Therefore, on November 23, 1933, a notice was issued to both parties, informing them not to bring their scholars with them on the appointed date, but to appear in person so that these legal questions could be considered and resolved. The plaintiff, dissatisfied with this order of the court, filed a monitoring application in the Special Assembly of the High Court. And the High Court, by order of November 9, 1933, ruled that the compliance of the notice on the plaintiff was not correct. Therefore, it was directed that the discussion and discovery of new matters should continue simultaneously. And if a postponement of the case is deemed necessary in favor of any party, then the other party should be compensated appropriately by that party. Following this order, the parties were directed to present their evidence regarding the new investigations, and the defendant's representatives were ordered to continue their arguments. After the parties' evidence regarding the aforementioned new investigations was concluded, the defendant again raised an objection on January 2, 1933, through an application, that the following matters should also be investigated. Whether the defendant's nationality is located in the State of Bahawalpur? If the above investigation proves to be against the plaintiff, does this court still have jurisdiction? This application was rejected on the grounds that the defendant had not raised any such objection before, even though he had been pursuing the case after obtaining legal advice. Furthermore, as far as the legal aspect of this new objection is concerned, he can present the law at the time of his argument. In terms of facts, the material brought on record by the parties is sufficient to discuss this question as well. Therefore, it is not deemed necessary to formulate any further investigation. Prior to this, during the testimony, an argument was also raised by the defendant that QADIANI SU JERGRAADSDEN VODIM Since the plaintiff was a minor at the time of filing the suit, it should now be inquired from her whether she wants to pursue the case or not. Therefore, regarding this question, an issue was framed on March 1, 1933, in these words: "Whether the plaintiff was a minor at the time of filing the suit," and the burden of proof was placed on the defendant. Because the plaintiff was presented as a minor by her father's attorney to file the claim. However, this issue was later dismissed by order of March 29, 1933, because legally, the defendant's objection was inadmissible. See 74-Indian Case, page 309. Now, other legal questions are discussed below. The defendant's main objection is that he never resided within the boundaries of this state, nor did he accept the Ahmadiyya religion here. Instead, he lived in Sheikhupura for 5-6 years. From there, in 1922, he pledged allegiance to Mirza Sahib's second Caliph through a letter. And 5-6 months after pledging allegiance, he came to his current residence in the Lodhran area and settled there. Here, he built a house and has been residing here ever since. The plaintiff claims that the defendant, after leaving Dera Ghazi Khan district, came directly to Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh, the plaintiff's father, within the boundaries of this state and started living here. He accepted the Mirza'i religion on the encouragement of a person named Maulvi Nizamuddin, who lived near the village of Mahand, the residence of the plaintiff's father. And after the claim for restitution was filed, he left the boundaries of this state. The following conclusions are drawn from the evidence presented by both parties regarding these matters. The defendant's argument that he never came to this state is not found to be correct. Rather, from the evidence presented by the plaintiff, which has not been adequately refuted by the defendant, it is proven that the defendant, after coming to Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh, left his residence located in the Dera Ghazi Khan district. Page 1974 That Syedha came to Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh, father of the plaintiff, within the limits of this state, and after leaving his mother and sisters with him, he himself kept wandering in different places within the limits of this state for the sake of earning a living, and after some time he came back to Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh and stayed. After that, when the matter of the plaintiff's departure began, he left this place and went away, and the truth is that he had left before the case was filed. Because the plaintiff herself has mentioned his residence in Mailsi in the plaint. Therefore, when the summons was issued on this address, the plaintiff's attorney then submitted an application in Nisfi Ahmedpur Sharqia on August 13, 1926, stating that the defendant's residence was written as Mailsi in the claim, but now the defendant is present here in Ahmedpur Sharqia. Then the execution will not be possible. Now a summons should be issued on this address and executed. Therefore, on the same day, a summons was issued by the court and the defendant was informed. The defendant says that he was called there by deception. But this question is not very important. No matter how he came to Ahmedpur Sharqia, it is a fact that he was informed of the summons there. This shows that at the time of filing the suit, he was not residing within the limits of this state. Therefore, based on this, the defendant's argument is correct that since he did not have a temporary or permanent residence within the limits of this state at the time of filing the suit. Therefore, a suit could not be filed against him here. But at the same time, the plaintiff's argument is that since the defendant has changed his religion within the limits of this state. Therefore, the plaintiff is entitled to a claim due to the defendant's conversion of religion, and in this regard, the suit has been properly filed against the defendant here. The defendant states that he accepted the Ahmadi religion in Sheikhu, District Multan. And that initially he went from Dera Ghazi Khan District to Sheikhu. A letter of allegiance has been presented on his behalf. Which was sent from the Dunyapur post office on January 21, 1932 to the service of Khalifa Sahib II. Went. And on which, without any parentage or nationality, only Abdul Razzaq Ahmed is written. From this, it can certainly be determined that this letter is written by the same Abdul Razzaq, the defendant. Regarding the identification of the letter, two witnesses have been presented by the defendant. Among them, one, Allah Bakhsh, is a very young boy. The second states that he used to study with the defendant in Sheikh Wah. At that time, he used to see the defendant writing. Regarding the identification of the letter, he first said that he might not be able to recognize it. But then He stated that he recognizes that the letter included in the file was written by the defendant. But firstly, when this The witness states that he saw the defendant writing, at that time his own age would be around 13-14 years. It is unlikely that at that age he would have fully memorized the defendant's writing style. Secondly, he could not state any specific reasons regarding the identification of this letter. Besides, when When his hesitant statement is taken into consideration, his testimony becomes completely unreliable. This In this way, the testimony of the second witness is also of a superficial nature and cannot be fully relied upon. The defendant states that he lived in Sheikh Wah for 5-6 years. But to prove his residence there The same Allah Bakhsh has appeared as a witness on his behalf. Other witnesses only state in a hearsay manner They say that he came from there in Lodhran. Therefore, in this context, the material that the defendant has brought to the file It is difficult to determine from this that the defendant resided in Sheikhowah before taking up residence at his current address. And that he had also adopted the Ahmadiyya religion there. Of this The letter of allegiance that has been presented on his behalf. It has not been proven in a satisfactory manner that That is the same Abdul Razzaq, the defendant. From all these events it can be inferred that the defendant Before taking up residence in the Lodhran area, wherever he had previously resided. Ahmadi He accepted the religion there. When the defendant himself has not been successful in proving that His previous residence was in Sheikhowah. On the contrary, it has been proven by the plaintiff that the defendant Before taking up his current residence, the defendant resided within the boundaries of this state. Therefore, it can be established from the defendant's own statement that he adopted Ahmed's name within the boundaries of this state, which is also supported by the evidence presented by the plaintiff. Hence, it is declared that since the defendant's conversion took place within the boundaries of this state, at his place of residence, Mouza Mehand, the plaintiff has a cause of action within this district. Therefore, this court has full jurisdiction to hear this case. In response to the defendant's objection that he no longer resides within the boundaries of this state, and therefore this court does not have the authority to hear the case against him, the plaintiff has also stated that although the defendant initially raised this excuse, he later abandoned it in the final appeal and continued to follow it from beginning to end. Therefore, it should be understood that he accepted the jurisdiction of this court, and now he cannot object to it. In this regard, decision 29-Indian Kesar, page 456, has been presented as evidence. Regarding this, the defendant states that since the appeals were made by the plaintiff, he did not need to object. Furthermore, since the case has come back under the jurisdiction of this court in its initial status, he can draw the court's attention to this question. However, the defendant's argument does not seem correct that he did not need to raise this excuse in the appeal because the decision could have been against him. Therefore, he should have defended himself from every angle. And although the case is now being heard again in its initial status, the previous stages of this case cannot be ignored. And even if this argument is accepted as correct, since it has been established above that the cause of action arose within the boundaries of this state due to the defendant's conversion, there is no need for further discussion on this question, and this claim against the defendant has been correctly heard by this court. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2131 This resolution settles the first two of those revisions that were formulated on November 18, 1933. Regarding the remaining third revision, which concerns a decree from a foreign country, it is sufficient to state that the question of whether the defendant had become an apostate due to conversion and, therefore, the plaintiff was no longer his wife, did not come under discussion before the court issuing the decree. Nor does it appear that this court was informed that a case regarding this marriage was also filed by the plaintiff in this court. Therefore, it will be understood that the decision was not issued based on correct facts and that the decree was obtained fraudulently. Hence, that decree cannot be considered final under clauses (b) and (f) of Section 13 of the Civil Procedure Code. Thus, Section 11 of the Civil Procedure Code does not apply to the facts of this case, because, as stated above, firstly, the decree is not final, and secondly, it was not issued by any court within the boundaries of this state. Therefore, this third revision is also decided in favor of the plaintiff and against the defendant. The defendant has emphasized that since the parties actually belong to British India in terms of their citizenship and nationality, and the plaintiff's father himself or any of his witnesses has not claimed that he has relinquished British citizenship and nationality permanently. Because, to renounce citizenship and nationality, it is essential that this act be done publicly and with public declaration in a legal manner. Therefore, until this is proven, international law regarding such a disputed marriage is that a marriage that is valid under the law of the country where it was contracted is valid and correct throughout the world, and no court of another country can declare it invalid. And then, regarding the annulment of such a marriage, international law also states that only the court of the country where both spouses have nationality can hear the case for annulment, and according to this law, the wife's nationality will be considered the same as the husband's nationality. The essence of the evidence presented by the parties is that the parties in their initial 2132 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 British citizenship depends on nationality. For the sake of earning a living, one party has kept their residence in Bahawalpur. However, merely having residence in another place does not necessarily mean abandoning one's original nationality. The plaintiff's marriage took place in an English area, where the reason for apostasy stated by the plaintiff is not accepted. Therefore, according to the law of the English area, this marriage is valid and lawful. However, the defendant's argument is not weighty because, firstly, it is proven that Maulvi Ilahi Bakhsh has been residing within the boundaries of this state for a long time, having abandoned his former residence. From his long residence and other actions, it is well inferred that he has permanently settled within the boundaries of this state and has no intention of returning to his former residence. Because the evidence presented in this regard shows that he no longer has his own home in the area of ​​Dera Ghazi Khan District. Since the plaintiff was a minor at that time and was not handed over to the defendant as a wife, her coming here with her father and residing with him will be understood as if she has now adopted the nationality here like her father. Moreover, it is found that when she came of age, she refused to be the wife of the defendant. And she argued that the marriage that took place between her and the defendant in Dera Ghazi Khan District did not remain valid due to the defendant's apostasy. Therefore, how can it be said that the plaintiff's nationality will also be considered the same as that adopted by the defendant? Because she neither lived there with him as his wife, nor is she now willing to live there with him by accepting marital rights. Therefore, inevitably, it will have to be decided that the plaintiff has also now adopted the nationality here. And even if the defendant's argument is accepted for the sake of argument, the defendant cannot remain supported. Because the proceedings of this case here have also been conducted under the Code of Civil Procedure, which is in force in the English area. And the settlement of the marriage under discussion is being done under the same personal law, according to which the prevailing law of the English area is directed to be settled, i.e., according to the Muhammadan law. Therefore, how can it be said that the law of this state, under which proceedings are being conducted in this case, is different from the law of British India? Yes, the question of interpreting the law is different. The interpretation of a law cannot be considered a part of that law, therefore a court cannot be compelled to interpret a particular law in the same way as another court has done, unless it is a subordinate court to it. This is the reason why different High Courts have different resolutions on the same issue. In the present case, the High Court Special Bench, while not considering the decision of the Madras High Court as definitive regarding the matter under discussion, did not consider it worthy of following, and this resolution of the High Court is legally correct. Therefore, it cannot be said that if international law is even understood to prevail between this state and British India, any violation has been committed, because the same law is being followed here as is prevalent in British India. And if nationality is to be considered the criterion for hearing the claim, then since the nationality of the plaintiff is found within the limits of this state, therefore, in this respect also, the courts of this state have the authority to hear this case. Therefore, this case has been duly referred to this court and brought under hearing. After taking these legal matters into consideration, we turn to the original matter in dispute. And before discussing the evidence and arguments presented by the parties on this question, in order to understand what the Qadiani or Mirzai or Ahmadi religion is and what its connection with the religion of Islam is, and why the one who accepts this religion is considered an apostate, a brief introduction is necessary. It would not be contrary to the fact if it is said that according to every religion and creed, the knowledge of the beginning of creation and the existence of God Almighty has come from the divine books. It is possible that regarding all religions, this If it is not correct, then at least regarding Jews, Christians, and Muslims, it can be said without any fear of contradiction that, according to their religions, not only has the knowledge of the aforementioned matters been obtained from the divine books, but their divine books also have a near consensus on the beginning of creation. The purpose of this discussion is also to show that Muslims are not the only nation that calls their religious book, the Holy Quran, revealed by Allah. Rather, this type of belief is also found in other nations, and they also believe in their foundational religious books being revealed by Allah. Since the issue under discussion is only related to Muslims, only their Holy Book, the Holy Quran, is mentioned here. A study of the Holy Quran reveals that when God Almighty created Adam (peace be upon him), He forbade him from eating the fruit of a particular tree. After that, when Adam (peace be upon him) mistakenly ate that fruit, he was expelled from Paradise. And Satan, upon whose instigation he had eaten the fruit, was also expelled from there. And it was commanded that: "We said, 'Descend from here, all of you. Then, if guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.'" (Surah Al-Baqarah, Ruku No. 3) This guidance from God Almighty then continued to reach through His messengers, who were chosen from among mankind, until this series of messengers continued to Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). After Moses, people began to disagree about the continuation of the future series of messengers. And those who did not believe in the Prophet Isa (Jesus), and remained steadfast on the guidance of Moses, were called Jews. And those who accepted Jesus as a prophet were called Christians, and after them, when Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) received prophethood, those who accepted him as a prophet and began to follow his teachings... QADIANI ISSUE – GENERAL DISCUSSION 21233 Are they called Muslims? Now it is said on behalf of the plaintiff that it is the belief and faith of Muslims that Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa is the last prophet and there can be no new prophet after him. Yes, however, in the last era, Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him), who is alive in the heavens, will descend from the heavens and will show people the path of guidance by following the Sharia of Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa. And because of following the Sharia of the Messenger of Allah , he will be called an Ummah prophet. Now, in the late nineteenth century, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib Qadiani, who is the leader of the defendant, has interpreted these narrations which were famous among Muslims regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) that Jesus (peace be upon him), who was a Christian of Nazareth, has passed away. He is not to return. Neither is his return possible according to Quranic verses. Nor can he be a prophet. Rather, what is meant by Ummah prophet is that due to perfect obedience to Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa and his blessings, one of his followers is granted the status of prophethood. And with this interpretation, he has claimed this status to be exclusive to himself. The arguments and documents etc. presented by the second party in support of this claim will be discussed further. Now the only purpose is to show that those people who have accepted Mirza Sahib's claim as correct and have started following his teachings are sometimes called Mirzai because of their association with Mirza Sahib and his residence Qadian. And sometimes Qadiani. And by saying Qadiani Mirzai, another interpretation is also taken, that there are two sects of Mirza Sahib's followers. One is Lahori and the other is Qadiani. Lahori do not consider him a prophet. Qadiani consider him a prophet. Therefore, by saying Qadiani Mirzai, it is implied that the person to whom these words are used is among those followers of Mirza Sahib who consider him a prophet. In this case, the defendant is referred to with this meaning. £100 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 The third name of this sect is Ahmadi, about which it is said on behalf of the second party that The leader of this group, after proposing for his group, has obtained approval from the government to name his group by this name. According to Muslims, after the Holy Quran, the status of Hadith is in terms of authenticity and credibility. Which are a collection of the sayings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Now it is said by the plaintiff that Mirza Sahib's claim is wrong. According to the Holy Quran and Hadith, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets. There can be no new prophet after him. Mirza Sahib's beliefs are not correct according to Sharia . Rather, they go to the extent of disbelief. Therefore, the one who accepts him as a prophet and follows his teachings is also an infidel and is out of the circle of Islam and becomes an apostate. And the marriage of a Sunni woman that took place before apostasy does not remain valid according to Sharia. And under this principle, the plaintiff's marriage to the defendant did not remain valid in the event of his becoming a Qadiani Mirzai. Therefore, a decree of separation of marriage should be granted. It is said on behalf of the defendant that the Qadiani religion is not a religion different from the religion of Islam. Rather, it is the correct interpretation of the correct principles of this religion. By acting according to this interpretation, he has not become an apostate. His marriage is valid. And the plaintiff's claim is dismissible. Therefore, both parties have presented evidence in accordance with their respective claims, which will be discussed later . The initial investigations in this case, which have been mentioned above, whether in whatever form or in whatever words they are worded, do not affect the essence of the matter. Their meaning is also whether the defendant has adopted the Qadiani or Mirzai religion. And whether apostasy occurs by entering this religion and whether the plaintiff's marriage is considered annulled in this case. Therefore, the defendant's objections regarding the amendment of these investigations were not considered weighty by the ministry. Therefore, there was never any need for any change in the words of these investigations. And especially the amendment in them QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION There is no need for it also, that if, according to the defendant's claim, the same form of issues is established, then there is so much material of yours on the file, that based on it, discussion can still be done. There is no need for much discussion on this question now, whether the defendant is a Qadiani Mirza'i or not, because he has presented a list of his beliefs, in which he has clearly stated that he considers Hazrat Mirza Sahib as an Ummah prophet, and that revelation and inspiration, with the blessing of the Holy Prophet, Peace Be Upon Him, used to descend upon him. Therefore, it can be concluded from this that he is among the Qadiani followers of Mirza Sahib. Now, the only matter under discussion is whether this belief is disbelief, and whether the person holding this belief can be declared outside the circle of Islam and an apostate? In this regard, the plaintiff has presented the following six witnesses: Molvi Ghulam Muhammad Sahib Sheikh ul Jamia Abbasia Bahawalpur, Molvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib resident of Gujranwala, Molvi Muhammad Shafi Sahib Mufti Wa Darul Uloom Deoband, Molvi Murtaza Hasan Sahib Chandpuri, Syed Muhammad Anwar Shah Sahib Kashmiri, Molvi Najmuddin Sahib Professor and Takmil College Lahore, and the defendant has presented two witnesses, Molvi Jalaluddin Sahib Shams and Molvi Ghulam Ahmad Sahib Mujahid. Both of these witnesses are Qadiani preachers. The testimonies of all these witnesses contain several Sharia matters and are very lengthy. If even a slight abbreviation of them is included here, it will not only increase the volume of the decision but also create confusion in understanding the original matter. Therefore, the principles and arguments that are derived from these testimonies are recorded here. According to the instructions of Arzoo Ziada Tar Doo Bar Moalla, it is to be seen in the light of these testimonies, what are those fundamental principles of Islam, from differing with which apostasy occurs, or that by not following or not believing in which Islamic beliefs, a person can be considered an apostate, and whether apostasy occurs from Qadiani beliefs or not? The important and fundamental principles of the religion of Islam that have been stated by the plaintiff are detailed in the statement of Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the plaintiff's witness. Here, a brief repetition of them is done, which are 6130 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 state that the meaning of faith is to believe someone's statement based on their trustworthiness, and that believing in the news of the unseen based on the trustworthiness of the prophets is called faith. And disbelief is to be ignorant of the truth, or to deny or to retract. The proof of our religion is of two kinds: either through continuous transmission (tawatur) or through a single report (khabar wahid). Tawatur refers to something that has been proven from the Holy Prophet and has reached us continuously, in such a way that there is no possibility of error in it. This tawatur is of four types: tawatur isnadi (of the chain of narrators), tawatur tabqa (of the generation), tawatur qadr mushtarak (of the common element), and tawatur tawaruth (of inheritance). Tawatur isnadi refers to what is mentioned with a sound chain of narration from the Companions. Tawatur tabqa refers to when it is not known who took from whom, but it is known that the previous generation learned from the next, as is the case with the tawatur of the Holy Quran. Tawatur qadr mushtarak is when several single reports (khabar wahid) come, and the agreed-upon common element in them reaches the level of tawatur. For example, the miracles of the Holy Prophet, some of which are mutawatir and some are single reports. If any common theme is found in these single reports, then it becomes definitive. A further explanation of this was given by Maulvi Murtaza Hasan, the plaintiff's witness, that some such hadiths, which are not mutawatir in terms of wording and chain of narration, become mutawatir in terms of meaning if those meanings have been narrated by so many chains of narration and so many narrators that it is impossible for them to agree on a lie. Tawatur tawaruth refers to what is taken from generation to generation, and this tawatur is in such a way that the son took from the father, and the father from his father. Denying all these types of tawatur is disbelief (kufr). If the denial of mutawatir things is not called kufr, then nothing remains of Islam. To interpret these mutawatir things, to distort their meaning, is clear kufr, and to turn the mutawatir things through interpretations is also kufr. Kufr is sometimes verbal and sometimes active. For example, if a person prays all his life and after 30 years prostrates before an idol, then it is active kufr. Verbal kufr is when a person says that God... ...in attributes or in actions. Similarly, it is also a verbal act of disbelief to say that after the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad Mustafa) , another new prophet will come. Because under the category of continuous succession, the entire community has shared this knowledge that after the Messenger of Allah , no other prophet will come. Similarly, if a person says to his equal that his words are worthless, it is nothing. If he says this to a teacher or a father, he is considered disobedient. If he does this with a prophet, it is blatant disbelief. We have about two hundred hadiths about the end of prophethood, the Holy Quran, and unanimous agreement. And every generation has taken it from the previous one. And no Muslim who is related to Islam has been unaware of this belief. To distort this belief and to deviate from it is clear disbelief. The identity of Muslims is from Islam, and the identities of Muslims are from Islam. If consensus is removed from the middle, then the religion is gone. One who does not acknowledge the religion of Muhammad is called a disbeliever. One who does not believe from within but says it with his tongue is called a hypocrite. One who professes with his tongue but changes the reality of religion is called a heretic, and he is a more severe disbeliever than the first two types. Apostasy means that a Muslim leaves the religion of Islam by uttering a word of disbelief and denying something necessary and successively transmitted in the religion. And faith is to believe in what the leader of the world, Muhammad Mustafa, brought from Allah Almighty, and its proof is evident from Islam, and every Muslim, both special and general, knows it. To confirm it. The necessities of religion are two things: those that the elite and the common people have not realized that they are from religion, from which there is belief in monotheism, the message, and the five prayers, and things like that. If a word of Sharia is kept in place and its reality is changed, and that matter is from successive transmissions, then it is clear disbelief. By stating this legal reality of disbelief and faith, this matter... - Can Buy 1714 It becomes clear that a Muslim becomes a disbeliever and is excommunicated from Islam due to certain types of actions or statements. The belief in the finality of prophethood, meaning that no one will be given the office of prophet after the prophethood of Muhammad, is among the consensus beliefs without any interpretation or specification, which is understood to be among the fundamental beliefs of Islam. And from the time of Muhammad to this day, every Muslim, generation after generation, believes in it. And this issue is proven as clear as day by many verses of the Holy Quran, by successive traditions, and by the definitive consensus of the Ummah (Muslim community). And its denier is definitively considered a disbeliever, and no interpretation or specification is accepted in it. If any interpretation or specification is extracted from it, then that person will be considered a denier of the necessities of religion due to interpreting the necessities of religion. These are the principles under which there are many such branches that can independently cause disbelief. It is said on behalf of the second party that faith (Iman) is to have belief in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, the resurrection after death, and destiny. And Islam bears witness that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger, and to perform prayer, give Zakat, fast in Ramadan, and perform Hajj to the Sacred House of Allah if one is able. And whoever says "La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah" with their tongue and confirms its meaning in their heart, then such a person is certainly a believer, even if they are unaware of the obligatory duties and prohibitions. And the meaning of Islam is that one should express their consent without any objection to the obligatory duties and prohibitions that Allah has stated, that some things are lawful and some are unlawful. And the person who adheres to the good deeds that are in the Holy Quran... QADIANI IS300 have been declared the hallmarks of a believer, then that person is a believer and a Muslim. These are things that are related to the pillars of Islam, and regarding their being a part of faith, the plaintiff party has no objection either. The question is whether the belief of the defendant party on these matters, under the principles stated by the plaintiff party, is the same as that of other common Muslims, or is it different? Because it is said on behalf of the plaintiff that a person who outwardly expresses Islamic beliefs and also claims to follow the Quran and Hadith, but interprets and distorts them in such a way that their realities change, then he cannot be considered a Muslim. The defendant party has not given any satisfactory answer to the fundamental principles and rules stated by the plaintiff regarding the proof of the religion of Islam. Whereas the principles of continuous practice and consensus have been acknowledged even by their leader, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib. Thus, he writes in his book "Ayyam-us-Solh" that it is obligatory to believe in all those matters which are called Islam by the unanimous opinion of the Ahl-e-Sunnat. In another book, "Anjam Atham," he writes that whoever adds or subtracts from this Sharia by even a speck, or denies any collective belief, the curse of Allah and the curse of the angels and the curse of all men be upon him. This is my belief. And in the book "Izala-tul-Auham," page 230, he writes that the matter of continuous practice cannot be falsely attributed to them. And even if the continuous practice is of non-Muslims, it will be accepted. In comparison to the principles and rules stated by the witnesses of the plaintiff, what the witnesses of the defendant have stated is that blind imitation of scholars and imams is highly reprehensible. It is not necessary that we blindly believe in whatever the previous scholars have written in the commentaries. Rather, it is our duty to test their verdicts and sayings on the touchstone of the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) and sound reason. And to adopt what is proven correct from the Quran and Sunnah, and to abandon the opposite, that whoever rejects a Hadith or saying from the Holy Quran FANISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Actually prove to be wrong. Then his statement will be acceptable. And that if a person is an expert in any art or not. If he proves something with evidence. Then it will be accepted. Even the Companions used to make mistakes in interpretation, this statement is from Maulvi Jalaluddin Sahib Shamsi, the defendant's witness. His second witness states that a person who speaks understands the meaning of his speech better. And the meaning of that speech that he will explain or interpret will be preferred. And that, according to the said witness, nothing is authentic except the Holy Quran. Except that which is in accordance with the Holy Quran. And whoever reads the Holy Quran can verify it himself. And for me, to see the conformity of the Holy Quran, the conformity stated by my obedient Imams or my own conformity is acceptable and that every word which is not supported by the Holy Quran and the words which are not confirmed by the Holy Quran-verified Prophetic hadiths. Or the sayings of the Imams, the sayings of which are not confirmed by the Quran and Hadith. In addition to that, the books of other authors which are not confirmed by the Quran and Hadith. Those are not binding on me. And that there is no specific person designated for the interpretation of the Quran. That whatever meaning he gives. No matter what he is. Should be accepted. And the opposite meaning should be rejected. If a correct change is proven from the Companions. Against which there is no clarification in the Quran. And there is no clarification in the correct, continuous hadiths either. There is no clarification in the Arabic language either against those meanings. It will be preferred in any case. And the person who interprets the meaning against it cannot be called wrong simply because he is opposing those meanings. Unless meanings are made against the Quranic clarification. The thing attributed to the Companions, that they have done or said. Or investigated. If it is in accordance with the Holy Quran, then it is acceptable. If the thing attributed to the Companions is said to be proven in the sense that the tradition reaches them, then it has no reality. The research of a non-Companion, provided that it is the correct text of the Holy Quran. QADIANI ISSUE According to. Have proof of the Arabic language. Also have support in other hadiths. Then it precedes the research of the Companion. Without these conditions, if a non-Companion presents any research. If the presenter is not inspired and commissioned by God. Whose revelation and inspiration has been confirmed by the statements of the Holy Quran. But is a common person. Then his personal opinion, separated from the above conditions, will be at the discretion of the listener and believer from the statement of the Companion. Whether to consider it revocable or not, one is free to declare a hadith correct in accordance with the Quran, whether he declares it in accordance with his reasoning. Or declare it in terms of clarification. From this it can be estimated in which of the principles stated by both parties there is rationality. One is to establish the foundation of one's religion on a few organized principles that have the power of antiquity. By establishing it, it presents it as a code and law. The other turns it into a toy and puts it in the hands of everyone. And instead of understanding religion as an independent course of action. Every moment and every moment considering it bearable of change, makes it a child's play. Because according to him, every person can be qualified and authorized. Whenever he wants, without any hindrance, he can start a new path based on his ijtihad and start walking on it. And neither any Companion. Nor any Imam. Nor any elder. Nor care about any other expert. Rather, whichever saying he considers correct from the Lawgiver. And whatever meaning he gives to it. Act accordingly and if someone arrests him, then immediately his saying Make up some interpretation and present it. And since that interpretation will never be given precedence. Therefore, no one will be able to spoil anything of it. And the poor arresting person will be ashamed. Under this principle, not only any religion but also the truth of any law is not Because this type of expansion can be imagined in every code whose enforcement is intended as law. And in this case it can never be implemented and remains merely word for word. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 If those principles, which have been stated by the second party, are put into practice, then religion not only does not remain worthy of being called religion, but becomes a ridiculous thing. And instead of creating any uniformity in it, every person, in an individual capacity, will be able to create a separate religion for himself according to his will. From the above clarifications, it also becomes clear that the things upon which the religion of Islam was based before Mirza Sahib's claim, none of them remain its basis and origin. And now the foundation is only upon the sayings and beliefs of Mirza Sahib and his successors, because, according to the second party, no saying of any previous companion, or Imam, or elder is superior and correct except for these people. Rather, whatever Mirza Sahib and his successors have said and written is correct. And no book other than their books is authoritative. From this, it is clearly concluded that Mirza Sahib's religion is different from the religion of Islam which Muslims have understood before Mirza Sahib's claim. Therefore, it has been rightly stated by the plaintiff that there is a legal difference between the two parties in terms of religion. And it has also been admitted by the plaintiff that there is a fundamental difference and separation between them. And Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, states that the Ahmadi religious people have changed many principles of the important matters of religion and have changed the meaning of many names. It will become clear later how much truth there is in this. Now, those beliefs are being stated on the basis of which it is said about the second party that they are apostates and infidels. In this regard, the main reason given is that they consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib to be a prophet. Therefore, it will have to be shown what Mirza Sahib's beliefs are and whether he can be a prophet or not, and what objection is necessary by considering him a prophet, and whether his statements are such that he cannot be considered a Muslim based on them. Therefore, the defendant cannot be considered a Muslim by following him. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION cannot be understood. Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, has stated six reasons under the principles that have been mentioned above with reference to his statement, on the basis of which, according to him, Mirza Sahib can be declared a disbeliever and apostate by consensus of the Ummah. And due to which, in his opinion, all Islamic sects of India, despite strong differences of opinion and differences of thought, agree on his disbelief and apostasy and the disbelief and apostasy of his followers. These reasons are as follows: 1. Denial of the finality of Prophethood and distortion of its consensus meaning, and declaring the religion in which the series of Prophethood is severed as accursed and satanic. 2. Claim of absolute and legislative prophethood. 3. Claiming revelation and equating his revelation with the Quran. 4. Insulting Hazrat Isa (Jesus) (peace be upon him). 5. Insulting the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). 6. Declaring the entire Ummah as disbelievers except for his followers. Almost the same reasons have been given by other witnesses of the plaintiff as well. Now, according to the statements of the said witnesses, the explanation of these reasons is given below. Points number 1 to 3 are of the same nature. Therefore, the discussion on them is recorded together. In this regard, the following statements of Mirza Sahib, which are present in his published books, have been objected to. In the beginning, I also had the same belief. That what relation do I have with Christ, son of Mary? He is a prophet and among the great confidants of God. And if anything appeared regarding my superiority, I would consider it a partial virtue. But later, by the revelation of God Almighty... UF FAKISTAN ORGVEDLI (30th Aug., 1974 It descended upon me like rain. It did not let me remain steadfast in that belief. And the title of Prophet was explicitly given to me. Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, page 149/150. In revelations, it has been repeatedly stated about me that he is God's messenger, God's appointee, God's trustee, and has come from God. Believe in whatever he says, and his enemy is destined for hell. (Anjaam Atham, page 62). I have the same faith in my revelation as I have in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Holy Quran. And could they expect me to abandon my belief after hearing their collections, even the collection of subjects? I have the same faith in this pure revelation as I have in all the revelations of God that have come before me. (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, page 15). Yes, this prophethood is not legislative, which would abrogate the Book of Allah and bring a new book. We consider such a claim to be disbelief. Supplement to Haqeeqat-ul-Nubuwwah, page 22. If you say that the law-giver is destroyed by fabricating, not every fabricator, then firstly, this claim is without proof. God has not restricted the fabrication with the condition of law. Besides this, understand what a law is: the one who has stated a few commands and prohibitions through his revelation and has prescribed a law for his followers, he has become the law-giver. So, by this definition, our opponents are also guilty because in my revelation there are commands and prohibitions as well. And similarly, until now, in my revelation, there are commands and prohibitions as well. And if you say that by law is meant that law in which there are new commandments, then this is false. Allah Almighty says: "Indeed, this is in the former scriptures, the scriptures of QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Abraham and Moses—meaning the Quranic teachings are also present in the Torah. And if you say that Sharia is that in which there is a detailed mention of commands and prohibitions, then this is also false because if the Torah and the Holy Quran had a detailed mention of the commandments of Sharia, then there would be no room for ijtihad. In short, all these thoughts are futile and short-sighted. (Arba'in No. 5, page 6) He writes on the footnote of page 7 of this book: Because my teaching contains commands and prohibitions, and it is a renewal of the necessary commandments of Sharia, therefore God Almighty has named my teaching and the revelation that comes to me as "Fulk," meaning a ship, just as one Imam's worship is. (Its translation is: Build the ark before our eyes and as we reveal to you. Verily, those who pledge allegiance to you pledge allegiance to God. It is the hand of God above their hands.) Now, behold, God has declared my revelation, my teaching, and my allegiance to be Noah's Ark, and has made it the means of salvation for all mankind. Let those who have eyes see and those who have ears hear. The true meaning of a prophet has not been considered. The meaning of a prophet is only that he receives news from God through revelation and is honored with divine conversation and address. It is not necessary for him to bring Sharia, nor is it necessary for him to be a follower of a Sharia-bearing Messenger. Rather, corruption is inevitable if this Ummah is deprived of divine communications after the Holy Prophet until the Day of Judgment. That religion is not a religion, nor is that prophet a prophet, whose following does not bring man so close to God Almighty. VE FANDI AN August 30th, 1974 _9 Can. That he may be honored with divine dialogues. That religion is cursed and hateful of Qabil, which teaches that human progress depends only on a few transmitted things, and divine revelation is not ahead but behind. If any voice reaches anyone's ear from the unseen, it is such a suspicious voice that one cannot say whether it is the voice of God or of the devil. So, such a religion is more worthy of being called satanic than to be called merciful. (Supplement to Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, page 139) God is only God who sent his messenger in Qadian (Dafe al-Bala, page). And I was told that your news exists in the Quran and Hadith. And you are the embodiment of this verse. It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance. (Anjam-e-Atham, page number 51). I have not been sent only for Punjab, but I am appointed for the reformation of all the world's population (margin of Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 192). This point is worth remembering that calling a denier of one's claim a disbeliever is only the glory of those prophets who bring Sharia and new commandments from God Almighty. But besides the owner of Sharia, no matter how important and reformer they may be, no matter how high they may be and honored with the divine dress, no one becomes a disbeliever by denying them. Margin (Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, page 326, 325). On page 103 of Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, there is a note under the phrase جاء فی آئین... واشار, in which it is written that in this place, God Almighty has named Jibril as Aiel. That is why he refers to it again and again. 14. In short, out of this Ummah, I am the only individual in this vast part of divine revelation and unseen matters. 15. I am special. And as many saints, abdals, and aqtab as have passed away from this Ummah before me, they were not given this abundant share of this blessing. Therefore, I alone have been chosen to receive the name of the Prophet. And all other people are not entitled to this name. Because abundance of giving and abundance of unseen matters are a condition for it. And that condition is not found in them. According to the Holy Quran, a Messenger is one who has obtained the commands and beliefs of the religion through Gabriel. (Izalah Auham, p. 221). 1. In Haqeeqatul-Wahi, the following is written: Muhammad Rasulullah Alif Laam Meem, regarding which it is written that in this revelation my name was called Muhammad, and also a Messenger. 2. On page 28 of Haqeeqatul-Wahi, it is written: But shadow-like prophethood, which means receiving revelation purely from the grace of Muhammad, will remain until the Day of Judgment. 3. In the book Haq-ul-Yaqin, page 02, this statement of Mirza Sahib is quoted: The scholars have made a mistake in understanding the concept of prophethood. In the Holy Quran, the word "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" has been used, which has definite article "Alif Laam" on it, which clearly shows that prophethood bringing a new law is now closed. So, if anyone claims to bring a new law, he will be an infidel. The conclusions drawn from these references are stated below in the words of Maulvi Murtaza Hasan Sahib, witness for the plaintiff. He states that Mr. Mirza Sahib and Mr. Mirza Mahmood Sahib and all their followers believe that after the Messenger of Allah (PBUH), the door of legislative prophethood is closed. After him, whoever claims legislative prophethood is an infidel and is out of Islam. In statement No. 4, Mirza Sahib has openly claimed his legislative prophethood. And Mirza Sahib himself has explained a few things in it. One is what is Sharia (religious law) in whose revelation there is a command or prohibition. August 30, 1974 He who has prescribed a law for his community is the possessor of a Sharia. By making this definition, Mirza Sahib proves himself to be a possessor of Sharia. Therefore, by his own admission, Mirza Sahib has become a disbeliever. Mirza Sahib has also made it clear that the command or prohibition in revelation does not necessarily have to be a new command. Rather, if even a command from the previous Sharia comes to him through revelation, this is sufficient for him to be a possessor of Sharia. Mirza Sahib has narrated many of his revelations that are verses of the Quran. Therefore, that too has become Mirza Sahib's Sharia. Mirza Sahib has also answered the doubt that it is not necessary for the possessor of a Sharia to have new commandments in his Sharia because Allah Almighty has said in the Holy Quran that this Quran is also in the previous books, in the scriptures of Abraham and Moses (peace be upon them). Now, if it is necessary for a new Sharia that all the commandments in the Sharia, revelation, and book of that prophet be new, then it follows that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) would also not be a possessor of Sharia because not all the commandments in the Quran are new. The clear meaning of this statement is that just as the previous prophets were possessors of Sharia, so too is Mirza Sahib a possessor of Sharia. Mirza Sahib has also made it clear that if someone says that it is necessary for a Sharia that all its commands and prohibitions be fully stated in that Sharia, book, and revelation, then this is also false because all the commandments are not mentioned in the Torah and the Holy Quran either. If all the commandments were mentioned in the Holy Quran, then there would be no room for ijtihad (independent reasoning). This shows that if a claimant to prophethood claims even one command or prohibition, even if that command is old, then that prophet will be called a possessor of Sharia. And there is no difference between him and the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in this sense, that both are possessors of Sharia. This point has also been proven that if a prophet receives a command from God that "We have made you a prophet..." QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION has sent it. And you preach this command to the people, and whoever does not accept this command is a disbeliever. So he is also a prophet, a law-bearing prophet, and a legislative prophet. This also proves that the one who is a true prophet and who is a Sharia prophet must be a legislative prophet. Therefore, according to his own writings and confessions, Mirza Sahib became a disbeliever. In addition to this, Mirza Sahib also said that my ark has been declared the Ark of Noah. Whoever is in it will be saved, and whoever is not will be destroyed. This is a new commandment of Mirza Sahib's Sharia, which abrogated the Sharia of Muhammad. Mirza Sahib also gave a new command that it is not permissible for their women to marry non-Ahmadis. This is also against the command of Sharia Muhammadia. (This result has been taken with reference to the book Anwar-ul-Khilafah, compiled by Mirza Mahmud Sahib, pages 93-94.) There is also a new commandment in Mirza Sahib's Sharia, which is against all of Islam, that Mirza Sahib, by initiating a fundraising campaign from his followers, has commanded that whoever does not pay the donation for three months will be expelled from my allegiance. And being expelled from allegiance means that he is expelled from Islam and is a disbeliever, even though God has not given this command for Zakat that if someone does not pay Zakat for three months, he will be expelled from Islam. This reference is given from a decree of Mirza Sahib which was published in December 1920 from Qadian. The selected words of this decree are as follows: God has told me that my lineage is connected to Him. That is, those are disciples in God's register who are engaged in aid and support. Every person who is a disciple should set aside some monthly amount for himself. The person who does not set anything is a hypocrite. Now after this, he will not be able to remain in this series. If no answer comes from anyone for three months, his name will be removed from the series of allegiance. 2132 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 His reliable witness narrates the aforementioned verse, "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets," stating that the verse clarifies that there is no prophet after the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). And when there is no prophet after him, then there is no messenger after him either, all the more so because a messenger is a prophet, but it is not necessary that every prophet is a messenger. And in support of this, there are continuous hadiths, which have been narrated by a group of companions. One who denies such hadiths is as much an infidel as one who denies the Quran. It proves that whoever denies the finality of prophethood becomes an infidel by denying the Quran. In support of this, they have quoted the sayings of several religious leaders and wanted to show from them that the continuous hadiths contain the news that no prophet is to be born after the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), and that every person who claims this position of prophethood after him is a liar and a fabricator, a deceiver and a misleader, even if he performs magic tricks, shows all kinds of magic, talismans, and illusions, and that whoever claims prophethood is an infidel. And then, from these references, it has been concluded that this belief that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets is certain and unanimous; no one disagrees with it. It is proven from the Book and the Sunnah, and after him, no one will become a prophet in any kind of prophethood. The coming of Jesus (peace be upon him) is not contrary to this, because he had already become a prophet. The meaning of the Seal of the Prophets is also this: that, in its generality, no prophet can receive prophethood after him. In support of this, some other Quranic verses and hadiths have also been presented, the details of which are not necessary here, and by referring to them, this conclusion has been drawn: that denying the finality of prophethood, the claim of prophethood, and the claim of divine revelation are all infidelity. However, it seems necessary to mention one hadith here, which will be discussed later when the defendant replies. That hadith means that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said that my example, and the example of the prophets who were before me, is like that of a person who built a house. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2193 He built it. And made it very good and very beautiful. But there remained a place for a brick in its corner. People look at that house. And are surprised and say that this brick space is empty. Why was it not filled? So I am that brick and I am the Seal of the Prophets. From this hadith, it has been concluded. That the construction of the House of Prophethood, which started from the beginning of creation. It was incomplete without the Leader of the Universe, peace be upon him. It became complete with the existence of the Leader of the Universe. And there is no space left in the House of Prophethood. Now if there is any brick, it cannot be from the House of Prophethood. If anyone claims prophethood. So the house of prophethood that God has built. He cannot be a part of it. From Mirza Sahib's statement number 15, it has been argued that this is clearly known from the Holy Quran. That the Messenger is the one. Who has obtained the commands and rules of religion through Gabriel, peace be upon him. If Mirza Sahib has not obtained the commands and beliefs through this medium. So the claim of prophethood is false. And a false claimant of prophethood is unanimously a disbeliever. From Mirza Sahib's statement number 13, Maulvi Najmuddin Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, has concluded that Mirza Sahib claims the descent of Gabriel, peace be upon him, upon himself. And not only contented himself with the claim. Rather, in order to establish the authenticity of his prophethood and messengership, he has left no stone unturned in proving all the characteristics of prophethood and requirements of messengership for himself with utmost certainty and conviction. The characteristics that distinguish the group of prophets, peace be upon them, from other close associates of God. Gabriel used to descend upon the prophets, peace be upon them. And their revelations and inspirations are definitive and certain. In the same way, Mirza Sahib also calls his revelation the word of God. And considers it as definitive as the Holy Quran. These mentioned characteristics are such. Which cannot be found in any other close associate of God except the prophets, peace be upon them, and the followers of Sharia. This proves that Mirza Sahib was a claimant of true prophethood. And he is a prophet and messenger in this sense. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 were expressing. In the same sense that other prophets, peace be upon them, have been called prophets or messengers. The plaintiff's witnesses have also shown from Mirza Sahib's own writings that he himself, before claiming prophethood, held the same belief: that after the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) no prophet can come, and that he is the Seal of the Prophets in the sense of being the last prophet. Thus, on page 522 of Izala-e-Auham, Mirza Sahib writes that how can a prophet come, and the wall of the Seal of the Prophets prevents him from coming. Further, on page 534 of this book, he writes: "But the door of false prophethood has been sealed for thirteen hundred years. Will this seal be broken now?" And in the book Hamamat-ul-Bushra, in the explanation of the verse "Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets," he writes: "Our Prophet (peace be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets, without any exception. And our Prophet (peace be upon him) has also said that no prophet will come after him. And after our Prophet (peace be upon him), if we allow the appearance of any prophet, we will be in favor of opening the door of prophethood after it has been closed, and this is against the promise of Allah. After our Prophet (peace be upon him), no prophet can come in any way, whereas the revelation has ceased after him, and the prophets have ended with you." Then, on page of this book, he writes: "After the passage of thousands of years, can one wait for such a state in which the religion is completed? If this is accepted, then the series of completion of the religion and its perfection becomes completely wrong, and Allah Almighty's statement that 'Today I have perfected your religion for you' becomes a false and untrue statement." In a reference on page 96 of the same book, it is shown that Mirza Sahib himself used to consider the claim of prophethood as disbelief before. Thus, he writes that "It is not possible for me to claim prophethood and leave Islam and join the disbelieving community." On page 241 of Izala-e-Auham, he writes that "It is obvious that this matter implies impossibility: that after the Seal of the Prophets, Gabriel's revelation should start coming and going on the earth with the message of prophethood. A new Book of Allah, containing the subject matter of the Holy Quran, should be created, which is a matter of It is impossible. That becomes impossible. But after that, he further wrote: That I, like you, Due to the limited knowledge of humanity, I used to believe that Jesus, son of Mary, would descend from heaven. And Despite the fact that God Almighty named me Jesus in "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya Qasas-e-Sabiqa" (Earlier Stories), and all the verses of the Holy Quran That were attributed to Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) as prophecies, all have come Attributed to me, and stated that the news of your coming exists in the Quran and Hadith. But still, I was not chosen. And in the earlier parts of "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya", I wrote and published the same wrong belief as my opinion. That Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will descend from heaven. And my Eyes were completely closed until God repeatedly opened them and made me understand that the Messiah Son of Mary, the Israelite, has passed away. And he will not return. (Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, Volume 5, Page 94). In another place, in the book "Haqiqat-un-Nabuwwah" (The Reality of Prophethood), on pages 266/265, he writes that after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), Who was, in reality, the Seal of the Saints. It is not objectionable for me to be called a Prophet and a Messenger. Nor does this break the seal of Khatamiyyat (the Seal of Prophethood). Because I have repeatedly stated that according to The verse *Wa akharina minhum lamma yalhaqu bihim*, I am, in a allegorical way, the same Seal of the Prophets. And God Twenty years ago, in "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya", named me Muhammad and Ahmad, and declared me to be the very Existence of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). So in this way, my prophethood does not Cause any disruption to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) being the Seal of the Prophets. Because the *zil* (reflection) is not separate from its origin. Further, he writes: That it is possible That the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), not once but a thousand times, may express his Prophethood in the world in the form of *Buruz* (manifestation) and with perfections. And this *Buruz* was a covenant established by God. Then he writes: That Since I am the *Buruz* of Muhammad, which was promised from ancient times. Therefore, the prophethood of *Buruz* has been bestowed upon me. And against this prophethood, the whole world is powerless. Because there is a seal on prophethood. In another place, it is written that the scattered perfections that are found in all other prophets are all in Hazrat Rasul August 1974 Karim was above all of them. And now all those perfections from Hazrat Rasool Karim Have been granted to us in a partial manner, all the previous prophets were shadows. In the special qualities of Nabi Karim. And now we are the grace of Nabi Karim in all those qualities. From this statement, it is concluded that shadow and The words manifestation are merely words. The meaning of these words is the perfect reality of prophethood. From these explanations, Maulvi Najmuddin Sahib, the witness of the plaintiff, argues that Mirza Sahib has presented in his support the verses of the Holy Quran and the hadiths of the Prophet for his prophethood. They are purely A futile and meaningless endeavor because Mirza Sahib, at the time of writing Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya and long before that, Claimed to be knowledgeable of the Quran and a staunch prophet. If he denied the coming of a new prophet according to the Quran before this, Then which verse of the Quran was revealed later or which hadith of Nabi Karim (PBUH) came into existence Based on which Mirza Sahib claimed prophethood. The verse of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen and the verse of "Al-Youm Akmaltu Lakum" were present in the Quran at that time as well. Both these verses are from the category of news, and They have no connection with commands and prohibitions. If one takes refuge in the claim of interpretation, then It can be applied to commands and prohibitions, but not to news. This issue is agreed upon by all Muslims. Then how can he call himself truthful in the claim of prophethood according to the Quran or Hadith? Mirza Sahib accepts the meaning of the seal of prophethood as it is commonly believed. And in his speech He uses it in the same way. But only to maintain his wishful thinking, he is restless and He has tried to save himself by interpreting it in a way that is contrary to Arabic idioms. Further, he says that Mirza Sahib has tried to prove himself a prophet in a metaphorical sense after Khatam-un-Nabiyeen. But it is proved by his own words that the one who is the last It is not possible for him to be a "Buruz". Therefore, he writes on page 377, footnote of his book "Tiryaq-ul-Qulub": "Indeed, the Mahdi Ma'hood will not come into this world in terms of Barozat either, because he is the last of the children." On page (blank) of this book, he writes that these are the revelations of some great saints. And if the Prophetic traditions are carefully examined, much help is obtained from these revelations. But this statement is correct only if the Mahdi Ma'hood and the Messiah Ma'hood are considered to be the same person. From this reference, Mirza Sahib's claim of not being a "Baruzi" and "Zilli" is also proven wrong. And it is proven that Hazrat Muhammad al-Rasool Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets and Messengers. After him, anyone who claims prophethood for himself or considers someone else to be a prophet is a disbeliever, apostate, and outside the pale of Islam according to all Muslims. Supporting the fact that the words "Zilli" and "Baruzi" are mere words, and that Mirza Sahib actually meant true prophethood, is a writing by Mirza Sahib's son, Bashir Mahmood Sahib, which Madinah's witness, Maulvi Murtaza Hassan Sahib, quoted with reference to the newspaper Al-Fazl dated November 26, 1913, and which is as follows: Just as we read about Hazrat Ismail and Hazrat Idris (peace be upon them) as prophets in God's other revelations, similarly, in God's last revelation, we see the Promised Messiah being addressed with the title "Ya Nabi Allah" (O Prophet of Allah). And we do not read any word of "Lughvi" (linguistic) or "Khulqi" (moral) or "Juzvi" (partial) with this prophet, so that we should assume ourselves guilty and start justifying our innocence. Rather, we give proof of the prophethood of other prophets, but even more so, because we are eyewitnesses, we can give proof of the prophethood of the Promised Messiah. Then it is written that God Almighty has clearly named you a prophet and messenger, and has nowhere said "Buruzi" or "Zilli" prophet. So we will give precedence to God's command, and we will subordinate your writings, in which humility and humbleness are dominant, and which is the characteristic of prophets, to these revelations. UT PAKISTAN [30th Aug, 1974 From this, it is concluded that Mirza Sahib wrote these words as a form of humility and modesty, otherwise, their literal meaning is not intended. Wherever Mirza Sahib calls himself a Buruzi, Zilli, or Majazi prophet, it should only be understood as a real prophet. Similarly, Khalifa II wrote in Akhbar Al-Fazl, dated June 29, 1915, handbill page (1), that not accepting the Promised Messiah as a prophet of Allah, and considering him an Umati (follower), or understanding him as part of the Umati group, is like considering the Holy Prophet, who is the leader of all messengers and the seal of the prophets, as an Umati and including him among the Ummatis, which is a great blasphemy and blasphemy after blasphemy. Regarding the finality of prophethood and the cessation of sainthood, Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, presented another argument. It is that, upon looking at the Holy Quran as a whole, it becomes clear that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is the last prophet, and no prophet can come after him. The explanation for this is that Allah Almighty has informed us about the beginning of the series of divine revelation from Adam (peace be upon him). This is the beginning of revelation. After this, we reach the time of Noah (peace be upon him). We inquire from the Holy Quran whether the series of prophethood is continuing or not. The answer is that yes, it is continuing. As it is stated: "And We have revealed to Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture." From this, it is known that the series of prophethood is continuing in the descendants of Noah (peace be upon him). And the series of prophethood is still continuing in the descendants of Abraham as well. Another thing that is proven from this is that the vessel and place of prophethood is only the family of Abraham. The practical proof of this is that Allah Almighty has established two branches in the descendants of Abraham. One is Prophet Isaac, in whom the series of prophethood continued first, and many prophets came among them, and this series ended with Jesus (peace be upon him). The other is Prophet Ishmael, in whom no prophet came until the Holy Prophet (PBUH). After that, Moses (peace be upon him) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2159 If we look at the time of Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him), it will be known from the Holy Quran that the series of prophethood continues after Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him). As it is said, "And We gave Moses the Book and sent messengers after him." This verse proves that the series of prophethood continues after Moses (peace be upon him) and there is a promise of the coming of several messengers, as is evident from the word "messengers." After this comes the time of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). Then a question is asked from the Holy Quran: Will prophets come in abundance? What will happen? Then God Almighty says: "And when Isa, the son of Mary, said, etc." Here, God Almighty has completely changed the style of the answer on the tongue of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) says, "O Children of Israel, I have come to you as a messenger of God, confirming the book of Moses (peace be upon him) that came before me, the Torah, which was given to him by God, and giving good news of a messenger who will come after me, whose name will be Ahmad." Before this, the Holy Quran had given the news of the coming of messengers in general with the word "messengers," and here, by giving the news of a specific messenger, it specified and determined him by name. This style clearly indicates that God Almighty is ending prophethood on Ahmad (peace be upon him) and has changed the style of the coming of messengers in general and gives information about the coming of a specific, determined person. After this comes the time of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Then we ask the Quran: After the coming of the Holy Prophet, does the series of prophethood continue or does it stop? Then the Holy Quran says: "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets." It is noteworthy that God Almighty gave information about the continuation of the series of prophethood and the coming of messengers in the time of various prophets. And coming to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), contrary to this information, such information was necessary in the form of continuation of prophethood like before, as was given earlier. 2160 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug. 1974 The declaration of the finality of Prophethood was made, from which it was absolutely and certainly known that the Holy Quran as a whole is declaring the finality of Prophethood. In this connection, a reference to two hadiths which the said witness has given and are also present in the statements of other plaintiff witnesses, seems necessary to be given, because these hadiths are debatable in the reply of the founding party. One hadith is that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that prophets used to come in the children of Israel. When one prophet died, another would come. But there will be no prophet after me and there will be Caliphs. There will be many. The second hadith is that while going to the Battle of Tabuk, when you left Hazrat Ali to take care of the family Hazrat Ali submitted that you are joining me among women and children. So he said that he has the same relation with me. Just as Aaron had with Moses (peace be upon him) However, there can be no prophet after me. If Prophethood, legislative or non-legislative, continued after the Holy Prophet Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) would not have been deprived of this attribute by saying "La Nabi after me" by the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The said witness has also presented another argument from the Holy Quran regarding the finality of Prophethood. That Surah Al Imran Para Third Verse Qulu Amana Billah Wa Ma Anzala Ilaik .. Alkh from Allah Almighty He revealed that whatever revelation was revealed to the prophets (peace be upon them) happened in the past. And Allah He urged us to believe in the same prophets. Who have passed away before the Holy Prophet and There is no emphasis on believing in any prophet who comes after you. If any prophet is the Holy Prophet If he was about to come after (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Then Allah Almighty would surely have urged us to believe in him. Another verse of Surah Baqarah Wa Allazina Yuminoona Bima Unzala Ilaiqaaj in which God Almighty He has declared those who abide by the revelation of the Holy Prophet and are from you as "successful". QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 4101 216 First, believe in the revelation to the prophets (peace be upon them) and in the afterlife. And the Holy Quran has committed to this. That everywhere the word "before" is combined with the word "revelation" so that it may not be proved that revelation of prophethood and prophets (peace be upon them) came before the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Therefore, in support of this, Maulvi Najmuddin Sahib Lakh The plaintiff's witness has argued from verse وَما ارسلنك إلا كافته للناس . of Surah Saba, verse number 22. That only these four things are needed to become pious, which are mentioned in this verse. One is the revelation that was revealed to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). The second is what was revealed to people before you. If human salvation and progress depended on any revelation even after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), then Allah Almighty would have mentioned it here as well. But it did not. It seems that there is no need for any other new thing or new revelation to become pious. Nor does the salvation of human beings depend on its coming or believing in it. Another writing of Mirza Sahib regarding the finality of prophethood is very clear, which is mentioned in the statement of Maulvi Murtaza Hassan Sahib, the plaintiff's witness. Mirza Sahib writes on page 25 of his book "Izala-e-Auham" that we have written many times that the coming of Christ, son of Mary, as a Messenger after Khatam-un-Nabiyeen is a cause of great corruption. Either it will have to be admitted that the series of revelation of prophethood will start again. Or it has to be accepted that God Almighty sent Christ, son of Mary, without the requirements of prophethood. And sent him as a mere follower and both of these situations are contradictory. Similarly, on page 238, he writes, "We have just written that God Almighty says in the Holy Quran that no Messenger comes into the world as obedient and subjugated. Rather, he is solely obeyed and follows his revelation, which is revealed to him through Gabriel (peace be upon him). Now this is a straightforward thing. When Hazrat Masih Ibn Maryam descends. And Hazrat Jibreel continuously starts bringing revelation from the sky. And through revelation, he makes them aware of all Islamic beliefs and 2162 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Fasting, prayer, alms, pilgrimage, and all matters of jurisprudence were taught. Then, by all means, this collection of religious commandments will be called the Book of Allah. If you say that the Messiah was only told through revelation, "You must act upon the Quran," and then revelation ceases for life, and Gabriel will never descend again, but he becomes like the followers after being deprived of his desires, then this is a childish thought worthy of oblivion. It is obvious that even if the descent of revelation is assumed to be only once, and only one sentence is brought by Gabriel, and then he becomes silent, this matter is also contrary to the conclusion of the invitation. Because when the seal of finality itself is broken and the revelation of Prophethood starts descending again, then descending a little or a lot is the same. Every wise person can understand that if God Almighty is true to His promise, and the promise that has been given in the verse of the Seal of the Prophets, and which has been clearly stated in the hadiths, that Gabriel is now forever forbidden from bringing the revelation of prophethood after the death of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), all these things are true and correct. Then, no person can come as a prophet after our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in any way. From this, it has been concluded by the claimant that Mirza Sahib has clarified that no obedient prophet, i.e., follower, can be made. Rather, he is obeyed and only follows his revelation, which is revealed to him through Gabriel (peace be upon him). Now the question is, when Mirza Sahib became a prophet, did he follow the revelation that was revealed to him, or the Quran? If he followed the Quran, then Mirza Sahib is still an infidel because he should have followed his revelation. And if he followed his revelation, then he is still an infidel because he abandoned the Quran. The book "Azalat al-Auham" was written some time after Mirza Sahib's claim, and until then, he understood the meaning of the Seal of the Prophets in the same way as the whole world understood it. And the coming of a prophet and the descending of Gabriel (peace be upon him) once and saying one sentence, "You should follow the Quran," all these things were against the conclusion of the invitation in the view of Mirza Sahib, and the seal of prophethood was broken by it. QALANI 19566 In every century, at least one reformer comes. It is their duty to warn people about the mistakes they have made in the world, especially regarding matters and beliefs that could lead a person to disbelief. Moreover, countless saints, Abdals, and Qutbs have passed through the Ummah, and none of the Companions (Sahaba) ever interpreted "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin" in the way that Mirza Sahib has now explained. Therefore, the meaning of "Khatam-un-Nabuwat" that is now proposed, which necessitates the continuation of Prophethood and the continuation of Divine revelation, and according to which any religion that does not have Divine revelation is deserving of being called accursed and satanic by Mirza Sahib. Based on this, if this meaning is correct, then as long as Mirza Sahib held the above belief, Mirza Sahib himself was a disbeliever. And all the Muslims who passed away before him holding this belief were all disbelievers. And if the previous belief of the Muslims and Mirza Sahib was correct, then the former people were Muslims, and Mirza Sahib became a disbeliever after changing this belief. These conclusions are drawn from the statement of Maulvi Murtaza Sahib. Further, he says that Mirza Sahib has said that whatever is inherently impossible is indeed impossible. If by this is meant intellectual impossibility, then concealing it is impermissible, especially for thirteen hundred years, while the Companions, the Followers, the Imams of Jurisprudence, and the Imams of Jurists, who have thoroughly analyzed intellectual matters, were present. And if by impossibility is meant religious impossibility, then that too cannot remain hidden, especially until his time and from so many experienced scholars and reformers. This proves that until the writing of this statement, Mirza Sahib believed that the meaning of "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin" is that no new or old prophet can come. The consensus of the scholars of the Ummah on the issue of Khatam-un-Nabuwat, and the meaning of the verse that they have written, and that meaning is among the accepted beliefs of Mirza Sahib, that is the truth. And now whoever denies this meaning is a disbeliever, and indeed a disbeliever. In another book, "Hamamatul Bushra," on page 34, Mirza Sahib wrote: Lum nug., 1974 Something has been written. Its meaning is explained that it is not permissible for any Muslim regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) to act upon the apparent meaning of the words that have come in the hadiths. Because this verse, "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets" is contrary to it. Do you not know that Allah Almighty has named the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as the Seal of the Prophets and there is no exception in it? And then in His own words, He has detailed this Seal of the Prophets: "There is no prophet after me," which is a clear statement for those who understand. And if we allow that a prophet can come after him, then it necessarily follows that the door of divine revelation of prophethood will open after it has been closed. And how can a prophet come after you when divine revelation has ceased? And Allah Almighty has ended all the prophets with you. Should we believe that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will come, and the Seal of the Prophets is not our beloved Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)? From this, it is concluded that Mirza Sahib has clarified in it that the interpretation of the Seal of the Prophets without any exception is that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has stated in these words: "There is no prophet after me." And it is known that according to Mirza Sahib, the interpretation of the Seal of the Prophets is "There is no prophet after me." And the meaning of the Seal of the Prophets is that no prophet will come after him. There is no restriction of any Buruzi or Zilli prophet in it. And now, to take this meaning of "There is no prophet after me" to mean that it refers only to that pure prophet who is independent and has attained prophethood separately from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), because this meaning is also wrong according to Mirza Sahib, and now it is not at all acceptable to make this meaning. Mirza Sahib gives this meaning of the Seal: that the Holy Prophet is a seal, and prophets are made with his approval. He writes in the book Haqiqat-un-Nubuwwah, page 266, part one, supplementary number: "Since I am Muhammad in a figurative sense, therefore the seal of the Seal of the Prophets is not broken in this way, because the prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is only up to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." Muhammad is one of them. Meaning, in any case, Muhammad (peace be upon him) remained a prophet. No one else. Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the witness for the plaintiff, infers from this that I have become a mirror. Of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And the image has been imprinted in me. Of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). This does not break the seal of prophethood. This is mockery of God and His Messenger (peace be upon him). Now, regarding the remaining reasons for declaring someone an infidel, a summary of the statements of the plaintiff's witnesses regarding the insult of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him), the insult of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and the insult of other prophets (peace be upon them) is given below. In this regard, objections have been raised on the following writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib. Mirza Sahib writes on the last page of his book "Dafi-ul-Bala": "But the righteousness of the Messiah is not proven to be greater than other righteous people in his time. Rather, Yahya (John the Baptist) has an advantage over him because he did not drink alcohol. And it was never heard that a prostitute came and perfumed him with the wealth of her earnings, or touched him with her hands or the hair of her head, or that an unrelated young woman served him. For this reason, God called Yahya (John) 'Hasoor' in the Quran, but did not call the Messiah by this name, because such things were a hindrance to giving him this name." He writes on the footnote of Supplement Anjam Atham page: "So why did this foolish Israelite call these ordinary things a prophecy?" Further, on the footnote of the page, he writes: "You often had the habit of cursing and using foul language." On the same page, he further says: "In my opinion, these actions of yours are not a matter of regret because you used to curse, and the Jews would take revenge by hand." Further, it says: "It should also be remembered how much you were in the habit of lying." On the footnote of Supplement Anjam Atham, page 5: "Your family is also very pure and chaste. Three grandmothers and three great-grandmothers of yours..." ADADI AIN 13th Aug, 1974 "Adulterer" and "how were the ones from whose blood your existence came into being?" Further writes that "Your inclination and love towards prostitutes is perhaps because of ancestral connection. Otherwise, no pious person can give a young prostitute the opportunity to put her impure hand on his head." Further it is said that "Those who understand will understand what kind of person such a man can be." These abuses are recorded in "Supplement Anjam Atham" taking the name of Jesus. But it is said that Jesus and Tasbeeh were one and the same according to Mirza Sahib. Because Mirza Sahib in his book "Tauzeeh Al-Maram" on page 3 writes that "Maseeh Ibn Maryam, who is also called Isa and Jesus." Similarly in his book "Hashia Kishti Nooh" on page 65 he writes that "The reason for the harm that the people of Europe have suffered from alcohol is that Isa (peace be upon him) used to drink alcohol, perhaps due to some illness. O Muslims, your Prophet (peace be upon him) was pure and innocent from every intoxication." It is on the footnote of "Supplement Anjam Atham" that "The predictions that you have stated to be found in the Torah regarding your own self, their name and mark is not found in those books." He writes on the footnote that "And it is a matter of great shame that you have stolen the Mountain Teaching, which is called the essence of the Gospel, from the Jewish book "Talmud" and then made it appear as if it were my teaching." Further, "Your real brothers were very angry with you because of these actions of yours and they were sure that there must be some defect in your brain." It is written on the footnote of the book "Sunte Bachan" page 8 that "This request is also a clear proof that Jesus was actually a madman of juvenile epilepsy." It is on the footnote of "Qaima Anjam Atham" that "Christians have written many miracles of you, but the truth is that no miracle happened from you." On page number 7 of this book it says that youQADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2167 may have cured someone with night blindness or treated some such disease with a simple remedy. But unfortunately for you, there was also a pond at that time, from which great signs were appearing. It is conceivable that you also used the mud of that pond. The whole truth of your miracles is revealed by this pond, and this pond has decided that if any miracle has appeared from you, it is not your miracle, but the miracle of this pond. And in your hands, there was nothing but deceit and trickery. On page 9 of the appendix of Anjam Atham, he further addresses Muslims and writes that God Almighty has not given any information in the Holy Quran as to who Jesus was. And the priests acknowledge that Jesus was the person who claimed divinity. And he called Moses a robber and highwayman. And he denied the sacred existence of the coming prophet. And he said that after me, all prophets will be false. So we cannot even consider such an impure-minded, arrogant, and enemy of the righteous to be a good man, let alone consider him a prophet." And in the book Sat Bachan, pages 168/67, he writes, "And especially Jesus's grandfather, David, did all the bad deeds. He had an innocent man killed by deception for his lust. And he sent procurer women to bring his wife. And he gave her alcohol and committed adultery with her. And he wasted a lot of money on fornication." In Ijaz Ahmadi, page 14, three prophecies of Jesus Christ are declared false. It is written on the margin of Izalatul Auham, page 135, that Jesus Christ continued to work as a carpenter with his father, Joseph, for twenty-two years. It is written on page 6 of Kashti Noh: "That Mary had such dignity that she refrained from marriage for a long time. Then, due to the insistence of the elders of the community, she got married due to pregnancy. The clerics object that contrary to the teachings 2100 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 Why was the marriage performed during pregnancy? And why was the vow of virginity broken? And why was the foundation of polygamy laid? But I say that all these were compulsions that arose. In this situation, those people were worthy of pity, not objection. In Izala Auham, Volume 1, page 3, Mirza Sahib, addressing the Maulvis, says: "It is even more regrettable that the more prophecies of حضرت مسیح turned out to be false, the fewer turned out to be true." He writes on page of "Waqai Al-Bala": "God has sent the Promised Messiah from this Ummah, who is far superior to that first مسیح in all his glory. And He named this second one Ghulam Ahmad." On page 13 of the same book, he writes: "Since God and His Messenger and all the prophets have declared the Messiah of the latter days superior because of his achievements, then this is a satanic delusion to say, 'Why do you consider yourselves superior to مسیح ابن مریم?'" Maulvi Anwar Shahid Sahib has stated the origin of the word "Jesus" to be that it is originally a Hebrew word. And in Hebrew, "Yeshua" means savior. Yeshua became Jesus, and coming into the Arabic language, it became the word عیسی. And this Arabization did not begin with the Quran, but before the revelation of the Quran, the Christians of Arabia called عیسی علیہ السلام "Mesi" only. He writes on page 309 of Izala Auham: "Besides this, it is also likely that such miracles may have appeared through the method of عمل ترب, meaning mesmerism, as a form of amusement and play, not as a reality. Because in the عمل ترب, which is called mesmerism in modern times, such wonders continue to occur. If this humble servant did not consider this act hateful and abhorrent, then by the grace and guidance of Allah Almighty, I had strong hope that I would not be less than حضرت مسیح ابن مریم in these displays of wonders. But I prefer that spiritual path." QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2169 These phrases draw the conclusions that Mr. Mirza was well aware that Jesus Christ is the same person, as evidenced by his own writings. Therefore, they cannot say that what he said in the name of Jesus does not refer to Jesus (peace be upon him). And if it is said that some of these paragraphs are stated in the form of allegations in the answers of Christian priests. So this answer is also not correct, because in these paragraphs, words like "the truth is this" etc. cannot be accusatory answers, rather they should be considered as a result of Mr. Mirza's own research. Moreover, the statement quoted with reference to Daafi al-Balaa clearly shows that even in the eyes of God, the above-mentioned stories were preventing Jesus (peace be upon him) from being called "Hazoor." This shows that even in the eyes of Allah Almighty, who knows the unseen, it was proven that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) these flaws existed. That is why he was not named "Hazoor." And the abuses that Mr. Mirza had previously given to Jesus (peace be upon him) in Anjam Atham are mentioned here. Evidence of the purity and truthfulness of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) is found in the hadiths. And the Qur'an has said in his honor: "Distinguished in this world and the hereafter, and among those brought near (to God)." Messengers are only sent into the world so that people may follow in their footsteps and obey them. Mr. Mirza used very insolent words in the case of Jesus (peace be upon him). He called his miracles mesmerism. Whereas mesmerism is a branch of the types of magic and carnal attention .Which cannot be attributed to any virtuous or good man. Every immoral, even an infidel, can do it. And then such miracles which the Holy Quran has mentioned with great glory and majesty. Calling it "amal tarb" or "mesmerism" is extremely insolent and disrespectful. The miracles that have been proven from Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) have been accepted by all the scholars of the Ummah and the general Muslims to this day. Mr. Mirza has unnecessarily attributed them to mesmerism etc. . 2170 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 has been disrespectful. His disrespect towards Jesus (peace be upon him) in this manner is a cause of disbelief. Consequently, Mirza Sahib has also included the following statement on page 18 of his book "Zameema Chashma Marfat": "Perhaps someone might think that it is a cause for divine wrath." It clearly states that disrespecting any prophet is disbelief in Islam, and believing in all of them is obligatory. Even hinting at disrespect towards any prophet is a grave sin and a cause for divine wrath." In support of this, the plaintiffs' witnesses have presented several documents from the Quran, Hadith, and sayings of great scholars, which do not need to be detailed here. It is only briefly mentioned that Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, a witness for the plaintiff, stated that cursing or speaking ill of prophets, and making accusations, is the root of all types of disbelief and a collection of all deviations. Every disbelief is a branch of it, and even the slightest disrespect towards any prophet is disbelief. He further stated that Imam Ahmad says, "Whoever speaks ill of the Holy Prophet or diminishes him, whether they are Muslim or disbeliever, their punishment is death." The scholars have said that taunting God or cursing the Prophet is apostasy and punishable by death. He goes on to say that when scholars have quoted something distorted from the distorted Torah and Gospel, they have concluded that these books are distorted. Mirza Sahib concludes from this that Jesus (peace be upon him) was unworthy. There is a difference of disbelief and Islam in the ways of scholars and Mirza Sahib. Maulvi Najamuddin Sahib, a witness for the plaintiff, stated that Mirza Sahib has claimed to be superior to Joseph (peace be upon him). On page 20 of the book "Dafi al-Bala," Mirza Sahib says, "Leave the mention of Ibn Maryam; Ghulam Ahmad is better than him." He adds that these are not poetic statements but facts. Another poem by Mirza Sahib is quoted from page 69 of the first volume of "Izalat al-Auham," which reads: "I am the one who has come according to prophecies; where is Jesus, that I may trample him under my feet?" Maulvi Anwar Shah Sahib states that the Holy Quran has uprooted the beliefs of Jews and Christians and has not hinted at or alluded to any disrespect towards Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them). Now, regarding the second count of the charge of insulting the prophets, the arguments presented by the plaintiff's witnesses are stated. Under the charge of insulting the prophets, the plaintiff's witnesses have shown that Mirza Sahib has not only insulted Jesus (peace be upon him) but also the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). With reference to the book Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 265/26, Mirza Sahib's statement that "I am, in a metaphorical sense, the same as the Seal of the Prophets, and God named me Muhammad and Ahmad in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya thirty years ago, and declared me to be the very being of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Thus, the prophethood of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) is not shaken by my prophethood, because the shadow is not separate from its origin." From this, it has been concluded that the only meaning of Mirza Sahib's prophethood not affecting the finality of Muhammad's prophethood can only be that Mirza Sahib and the Leader of the Worlds (peace be upon him) are one, which is false according to reason and tradition. And if the Messenger of Allah (God forbid) were Mirza Sahib historically, then history is infidelity. And if it means that the shadow is the very essence of the one casting the shadow, then this is such a false statement that the world knows that a person's shadow cannot be the very essence of the person. So now, Mirza Sahib's being a prophet is not the same as the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) being a prophet. Even if we hypothetically assume that the shadow and the one casting the shadow are one, then the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) is Allah Himself, and in this way, he is, God forbid, the very essence of God, and Mirza Sahib is Muhammad (peace be upon him), then the clear conclusion is that Mirza Sahib is God. If being a shadow means that some attribute of the one casting the shadow comes into it, then such superiority is available to the whole world. In any case, Mirza Sahib's claim of unity with the Messenger of Allah is a clear insult to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). From Mirza Sahib's statement that "all the scattered perfections that are found in all other prophets are shadows of the Holy Prophet," it appears that metaphorical and shadowy prophethood is not a lesser or inferior degree of prophethood. Because the words "all" and "metaphorical" could create the illusion that Mirza Sahib meant that just as a person's reflection falls in a mirror, similarly, the perfections of Muhammad and the reflection of prophethood also fall in Mirza Sahib. August 13, 1974 fallen. But Mirza Sahib is not a prophet. Because the reflection of a person in the mirror does not possess any real quality of the original. This statement of Mirza Sahib has clarified this point so well that there is no room for doubt. Mirza Sahib uses the words "reflection" and "manifestation," but he means the complete reality of prophethood. Because he says that all the prophets who have passed were reflections of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in one quality each. And despite being reflections in one quality, they were independent prophets and not real. And Mirza Sahib is complete in all qualities. So it is proven that Mirza Sahib was greater than all the prophets. And this is a great blasphemy. Mirza Sahib repeatedly writes that the prophethood of the previous prophets was direct, and his prophethood is the effect of the blessing of Muhammad. This statement of his is also wrong. Because when every prophethood, according to him, was your blessing, then in this way, Mirza Sahib's prophethood is also your blessing. Therefore, this distinction is also false. From another statement of Mirza Sahib, which has been quoted from the footnote of Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, page 377, and which is in the following words: "In short, just as it is believed by the Sufis that the stages of existence are cyclical, similarly, Abraham, in terms of his inherent nature and heartfelt resemblance, took birth again in the house of Abdullah, son of Abdul-Muttalib, nearly two and a half thousand years after his death, and was called Muhammad." Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the claimant's witness, has argued that: (a) This statement implies that the Prophet of the Worlds (PBUH) ceases to exist, and your arrival is exactly the arrival of Abraham (peace be upon him), as if these are the cycles of Abraham (peace be upon him). It is as if the original was Abraham (peace be upon him), and the mirror was the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). And since, according to Mirza Sahib, there is identity between the original and the reflection. And for this reason, he calls himself the very Muhammad. So when Muhammad (PBUH) is a manifestation of Abraham (peace be upon him). (a) Then it would be exactly like Abraham (peace be upon him). This clearly implies that, God forbid, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has no independent existence, nor is his prophethood an independent thing. (b) The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was a manifestation of Abraham (peace be upon him), and you were the Seal of the Prophets, because the seal is a manifestation and a solution, not the possessor of the place and the origin. In this way, if Mirza Sahib was a manifestation of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), then Mirza Sahib was the Seal of the Prophets, not the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). (c) When the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was a manifestation of Abraham (peace be upon him), then all the perfections of prophethood, if gathered, would be in Abraham (peace be upon him), not in the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). This is false and meaningless. Besides, the subject matter in itself, that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is a manifestation of Abraham (peace be upon him) and Abraham (peace be upon him) is a manifestation of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), is meaningless and futile. The belief of incarnation in Islam is disbelief. And this is the reality of metaphorical, shadow-like, and manifest according to Mirza Sahib. In the series of insulting the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), Maulvi Najmuddin Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, has stated the following additional facts: To insult someone means either to reveal a physical defect in them, or to accuse them of immorality, or to claim for oneself a title with which Allah Almighty has honored them, or to say something in front of them or about their dignity that causes them hurt. Therefore, a few Quranic verses in which Allah Almighty has honored the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) with certain high ranks and positions, if a person ascribes them to himself, then it will inevitably be considered an insult and disrespect to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Therefore, the following verses: The verse "Glory to Him Who took His servant by night..." etc., In which the glory of Miraj (the Ascent) has been mentioned for the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The second verse, "Then he approached and came closer..." etc., In which the divine proximity that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) obtained from the Lord of Majesty was mentioned. Or, in other words, it was mentioned by Gabriel (peace be upon him). And the verse "Verily, We have granted you a manifest victory..." etc., And the verse "Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah..." etc., And the verse "Indeed, We have granted you al-Kawthar..." etc., Mirza Sahib has stated that these were revealed to him. And he has also claimed the Station of Praise (Maqam-e-Mahmud) for himself. And in these verses, which are mentioned further on, no prophet has been excluded. Our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is also included in the group of prophets. The word "prophets" is not specific to any particular prophet, but rather encompasses and includes all of them. In the second hemistich of the verse, there is a reference to his own superiority. In Haqiqatul-Wahi, page 89, he writes: "Several thrones descended from the sky, but the third throne was laid out on top of all." In this, too, there is disrespect towards the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mirza Sahib writes on page 63 of the book Tuhfa-e-Golarviyya that, for example, an evil person does not even mention the three thousand miracles that appeared from our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, he writes that "the predictions in these few lines contain so many signs that they are more than ten lakhs, and the signs are so obvious that they are extraordinary at the highest level." From these statements, it has been concluded that to limit the miracles of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to three thousand and his own miracles to ten lakhs—because a miracle is extraordinary—Mirza Sahib has stated his own great superiority over the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2175 This type of insult is called Lazoomi Insult. Which means, that the statement was not brought to diminish but that statement can't be true unless there is diminishment. The aforementioned statements have this type of diminishment. In this context, a saying of Mirza Sahib has been quoted from Arba'een number 4, page number 6, which is in the following words. Yes, if the objection is that where are the miracles here? I will not only answer this that I can show miracles. Rather, by the grace and mercy of God, my answer is that He has shown so many miracles to prove my claim that very few have come who have shown so many miracles. There is a poem by Mirza Sahib on page A of the book Ijaz Ahmadi which starts with the following words: "Ki Khusuf al-Qamar al-Munir wa in li" which means that the sign of the lunar eclipse appeared for him and for me the moon and the sun, in which the miracle of Shaqq al-Qamar has been interpreted as a lunar eclipse. In this, there is insult to the Messenger of Allah and denial of Shaqq al-Qamar. Mostly, the insult is derived from the use of the word "li" and the style of address, which clearly shows a comparison and shows one's superiority. Similarly, it is evident from a saying in Khutba Ilhamia page (T) line number 2 that it contains insult to Adam (peace be upon him). And the words written in it that this promise is written in the Quran that the Promised Messiah will defeat Satan. This is a complete lie against the fact, there is no such verse in the Holy Quran. The following are the poems narrated by Maulvi Muazzam-ud-Din Sahib, the plaintiff's witness: آنکه داد است هر نبی را جام دادان جام را مر اہتمام He who gave every prophet a cup, gave me the concern of giving the cup. انبیاء گرچه بوده اند ہے من به عرفاں نہ کمترم ز کسے Although the prophets have been, I am not less than anyone in knowledge. کم نیم زہی ہمہ برو سے یقین ہر کہ گوید دروغ هست العین I am not less than anyone, have faith in this, whoever says otherwise is a liar. 2176 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 And regarding the subject matter expressed in these proclamations, it has been stated by Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, on behalf of the witness, that the chapter on mutual superiority is about the difference in ranks among the prophets. And the prophet who is superior will be revealed through some indication that he is superior to another, and the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) conveyed this to his community, but with the caution that no superiority should be conceived from it. And to give such superiority to a prophet, even if it is true, that involves disrespect to another, is explicit disbelief. The sixth reason for change stated by the plaintiff is: that Mirza Sahib writes on page 230 of Izala-e-Auham, that the matter of continuous tradition cannot be proven wrong, and if the continuous tradition is of non-Muslims, it will also be accepted". Then, what he writes on the next page leads to the conclusion that the prophecy of the second coming of Jesus (peace be upon him) is among those continuous prophecies that were found in all Islamic countries during the best of generations, and it was always among the accepted beliefs. And this is a prophecy of the first degree, which everyone had accepted. And none of the prophecies written in Sahihs are parallel to it, and the Bible also confirms it. But after that, when Mirza Sahib wanted to deny this prophecy, he said that it is very disrespectful to say that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die. This is not the case. But the great polytheism, this belief of life, came to Muslims from Christians. Then the Christians spent a lot of money and spread this belief among Muslims, in cities and villages, because there was no wise person among them. And this statement was not issued from the earlier Muslims, but they are excused for their slip, in the eyes of Allah, because they were sinners. But they were not intentional and the reason for the mistake was that they were simple-minded people. If a Mujtahid makes a mistake, then Allah also forgives his mistake. Yes, those who had an Imam came with clear rulings, and who made guidance clear from misguidance, and yet they objected, those people will be held accountable. From this, the conclusion is drawn that Mirza QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2177 Sahib Hayat Isa (A.S.) calls it not just Shirk, but Shirk-e-Azeem. And according to the divine promise, according to the verse "Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him..." etc., it is absolutely impossible for Shirk to be forgiven. This implies that, based on this statement of Mirza Sahib, the entire Ummah was misguided. And the entire Ummah was polytheistic and Kafir (disbeliever). And whoever calls the entire Ummah misguided and Kafir is himself a Kafir. This statement of Mirza Sahib has launched such a massive attack on Islam that Islam cannot retain even an iota of its value. When it is also proven that this belief had spread throughout all Islamic countries through continuous tradition, and everyone accepted it, and no one, small or big, was informed of its evil. If Mirza Sahib had not come, then just as the entire previous Ummah was, God forbid, involved in Shirk-e-Azeem, so would they have remained involved in Shirk-e-Azeem. And it is possible that in the future, someone else, posing as a Mujaddid or the reappearance of the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.), would prove 20-25 more instances of Shirk. So when the Quran, Hadith, and the Muslims' religion are such that the existence of Shirk-e-Azeem was not known for thirteen hundred years, then what credibility will this religion have? As Mirza Sahib writes in another Fatwa, supplement Haqiqatul Wahi, page 44: "Whoever intentionally opposes it and says that Isa (A.S.) is alive, then he is among those who are Kafir (disbelievers) of the Quran. Yes, those who passed away before me are excused in the sight of their Allah." In the second book, Daf'ul Bala, on page 15, he writes: "We have heard that they, like other Maulvis, are supporting their polytheistic beliefs in order to somehow save Hazrat Masih Ibn Maryam from death and, by bringing him down again, make him the Seal of the Prophets. They are trying very hard." Al-Fazl, Volume 3, Number 3, dated June 129, 1915, is recorded on page 7. "So, in these meanings, denying the Ahmad and Nabiullah of the true Promised One, who is the means of the second advent of the Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.), is like denying the second advent and Nabiullah of the Holy Prophet, which takes the denier out of the circle of Islam." 2178 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 expelled from Islam and declared a confirmed infidel. In this regard, Maulvi Najmuddin Sahib, a witness for the plaintiff, has stated one reason for disbelief: that Mirza Sahib declared all Muslims of the world who are not part of his community, whether they call him an infidel or not, and according to the second Caliph, whether the message reached them or not, as outside the fold of Islam. How can a person who declares the entire Ummah of Muhammad as outside Islam save himself from the impact of infidelity? In addition to these reasons, the following beliefs of Mirza Sahib have also been stated as contrary to the beliefs of the general Muslim population. Mirza Sahib says that the meaning of Qiyamat (Day of Judgment) that Muslims have understood so far is not what Qiyamat will be. The blowing of the trumpet mentioned in the Quran does not mean that there will actually be a trumpet blown, nor does it mean that Qiyamat will be established. Rather, it refers to the arrival of Mirza Sahib. There is a denial of all matters related to Qiyamat in the Quran and Hadith, not just a denial of words, but a denial of the meanings with which the Quran and Hadith describe Qiyamat. There is also a denial of the resurrection of the dead from their graves, which is mentioned in many verses, etc. Maulvi Ghulam Muhammad Sahib, Sheikh-ul-Jamia, a witness for the plaintiff, has stated several other statements of Mirza Sahib as being against Shariat, which are as follows: For example, Mirza Sahib writes in his book "Aina Kamalat" on page 565/564: "I saw myself in a dream as the aider of Allah. And I was convinced that I am He. And the divinity and Godhead penetrated my veins. And I saw in this state that we wanted to create a new system, a new earth, a new sky. So first I created the sky and the earth in an abstract form, in which there was no differentiation or order. Then I arranged them. And I knew in my heart thatI am indeed capable of creating them. Then I created the nearest heaven. Then I said, "Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps..." Then I said, "Indeed, We will create man from clay." This shows that Mirza Sahib claimed divinity and considered himself the creator. And anyone who claims divinity and considers himself the creator becomes an apostate from Islam. In Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 86, he writes, "God said to me, 'You are to Me like My son.'" On page 103 of this book, Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, he writes, "I will answer with the Messenger. Sometimes I will err, sometimes I will attain reward." This implies that God makes mistakes. On page of this book, he writes, "Allah Almighty said, 'As the earth and heavens are with Us, so are they with you.'" From this, Mirza Sahib considered himself present everywhere like Allah Almighty. On page 05 of this book, he writes, "Allah Almighty says, 'Whatever you wish to create, just say 'Be,' and it will be.'" In Al-Bushra, Volume 2, page 9, he writes, "I also pray, I also fast, I also stay awake, and I also sleep. Just as I am eternal, so too have I made the lights of eternity for you. And you are also eternal." Then, on page 75 of Taudih-ul-Maram, he writes, "Qayyum-ul-Alamin is such a great being who has countless hands and countless feet, and each limb is so numerous that it is beyond count and has infinite width and length. And like a leopard, this great being also has threads that are spread to all the edges of the page of existence and are performing the work of attraction." From this, it is known that Mirza Sahib likens God Almighty to a leopard. In the supplement to the book Tiryaq, page 397, Mirza Sahib writes that new life can never be obtained when... Until a new conviction is born. And a new conviction can never be born unless Modi performs miracles like Christ, Jacob, and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). New life is only given to those whose God is new." With this, Mirza Sahib attributed habit to God, and these are the beliefs that Mirza Sahib held about Allah Almighty. And with these, a Muslim certainly becomes an apostate. Mirza Sahib's belief regarding the Holy Quran is as follows: In Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, page 84, he writes that the Holy Quran is the book of God and the words of my mouth. Apart from these arguments, a few examples such as Musaylimah al-Kadhdhāb, etc., were also presented by the claimant, that they had claimed prophethood and were killed on that basis. There is no need to include more details of these. From this entire discussion that has been stated above, the following results have been derived: 1. Mirza Sahib claimed to be a prophet of Sharia, which, according to the consensus of the Ummah and Mirza Sahib himself, is blasphemy. Mirza Sahib has also explained the Sharia in his speech. 2. Mirza Sahib confessed that absolute prophethood is terminated after the Seal of the Prophets. And whoever claims prophethood is a disbeliever. Mirza Sahib claimed prophethood, therefore he is a disbeliever. 3. Mirza Sahib also stated that no new or old prophet can come after the Seal of the Prophets. And he stated to deny this, is to deny Quran. But then he himself claimed prophethood. 4. Mirza Sahib said that no prophet can come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, and that his being the Seal of the Prophets is proven by " خاتم النبین " and "لا نبی بعدی " (There is no prophet after me), and then after this, he said that whoever believes that prophethood cannot come after him (Prophet Muhammad ﷺ) is himself a disbeliever. Therefore, Mirza Sahib is also a disbeliever because of this. GENERAL DISCUSSION QADIANI ISSUE - Mirza Sahib declared prophethood after the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as infidelity. Now, Mirza Sahib considers this prophethood as obligatory and a matter of faith, which is a greater act of infidelity. Mirza Sahib not only opens the door of prophethood but also limits it to himself, but he says that it will remain open until the Day of Judgment. He is also an infidel because of this. - Mirza Sahib does not say that another prophet will come after the Messenger of Allah ﷺ. Rather, he says that it is possible that thousands of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (PBUH), may manifest themselves. It is as if thousands of people or thousands of prophets like the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) can now happen. It is not inherently possible, but it is possible in reality. Then Mirza Sahib said that the Leader of the Universe had one advent before, and a second advent took place. The result of this is transmigration, and whoever believes in transmigration is an infidel. Mirza Sahib says that I am the very Muhammad. This is an insult to the Leader of the Universe. If he is really the very person, it is open infidelity. If he is not the very Muhammad, then there have been other prophets after him, and the seal of the finality of prophethood has been broken. This is another reason for infidelity. Mirza Sahib claimed revelation. And at the same time, he claimed the revelation of prophethood, which is infidelity. - Mirza Sahib equated this revelation with the Quran, the Torah, and the Gospel. On this basis, the Quran does not remain the last book. This is also a reason for infidelity. . According to Mirza Sahib's confession and the explanation of all the scholars, anyone who insults or abuses a prophet is an infidel. Mirza Sahib insulted Jesus (peace be upon him) in several ways. Every insult is a cause of infidelity. In addition, Mirza Sahib insulted Adam (peace be upon him) and the Leader of the Universe. Therefore, he is also an infidel. KAMAL AØSEMIDLI UP PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 12. Mirza Sahib changed the commandments of Sharia, therefore, Mirza Sahib is liable to be declared a Kafir because of this reason too. Mirza Sahib said that the marriage of an Ahmadi woman to a non-Ahmadi is not permissible; also, it is not permissible to offer the funeral prayer of a non-Ahmadi. He also said, "Remember that God has informed me that it is forbidden and absolutely forbidden for you to pray behind any denier, liar, or doubter. Rather, your Imam should be one of you." Footnote Tuhfah Golarviyah, page 18. (12) Mirza Sahib has said that whoever does not believe in me is a Kafir. 13. Mirza Sahib denied the opening of images. There is denial of the resurrection of the dead from the graves, in the manner that the news of the Day of Judgment has come in the Quran and Hadith. There is complete denial of them; only the apparent words have been kept, but the meanings have been stated upside down. These reasons are also for the excommunication of Mirza Sahib. Therefore, based on these reasons, it is not permissible for any Muslim man or woman to marry any Ahmadi man or woman. If the marriage has taken place, and after the marriage, someone enters this religion, then the marriage will be immediately annulled. And in support of this claim, decrees from several other scholars have also been presented, which are included with the file. And Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the witness, has also referred to two published fatwas from Egypt and Syria in his statement. The written fatwas that have been brought on file are from the scholars of the following places: Mecca Al-Muazzama, State of Rampur, Daral-Aura State of Bhopal, Humayun (Sindh), Bareilly, Dabhel, Delhi, Saharanpur, Thana Bhawan. The list of Muslim scholars includes the names of Sheikh Abdullah Sahib, Rais-ul-Qada of Mecca Al-Muazzama, Mufti Kifayatullah Sahib, President of Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind, and Maulvi Ashraf Ali Sahib. The arguments presented by the plaintiff regarding the excommunication of Mirza Sahib have been answered in three ways by the defendant. QADIANI ISSUE – GENERAL DISCUSSION 2183 Firstly, the statements of Mirza Sahib that have been presented as evidence of his disbelief-related beliefs do not take into account the statements preceding and following them, nor does it consider the context of the statements. If these aspects are considered while examining the statements, the conclusions drawn by the claimant's witnesses will not be the same. Secondly, Mirza Sahib himself has explained these statements in other places, so the meaning taken from these statements will be the one he himself stated. Moreover, there are other statements that, when taken into account, make it impossible to say that Mirza Sahib's intention was the same as the claimant's witnesses derived from the disputed statements. Thirdly, some of Mirza Sahib's statements under discussion are such that other religious elders have also made similar statements. However, according to the claimant party, those elders were Muslims. Therefore, on the basis of these statements, how can a decree of disbelief be issued against Mirza Sahib? All these matters require clarification, and their details will be explained in their respective places, and a full response will be given there. Here, it is briefly stated regarding them that some of the statements under discussion are such that they carry an independent meaning within themselves, and there is no such ambiguity in them that requires any explanation or interpretation. Therefore, there is no need to look at the preceding and following statements, nor to know the context. Hence, the meaning that will be derived from the arrangement of these sentences themselves will be taken as the intended meaning. Regarding the second matter, firstly, a study of Mirza Sahib's books reveals that there are contradictions in many of his statements, and this contradiction has not been resolved by any clear explanation or clarification. Secondly, as mentioned above, some statements are inherently independent sentences that are clarifying their meaning themselves. Therefore, unless it is shown that these words were taken back. 2184 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 Other words cannot be considered their substitutes, nor can they be their explanation. Therefore, it is wrong to say that these statements should be understood under the statements that Mirza Sahib made elsewhere because those statements do not reject the statements under discussion. Rather, as the plaintiff's witness, Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, has stated, it seems that Mirza deliberately adopted this method so that the result remains confusing, and he remains sincere and westernized when needed. Regarding the third matter, firstly, the statements of those elders are not exactly in the words that Mirza Sahib has stated. Secondly, the question of whether those elders are Muslims or non-Muslims is not under discussion in this case, nor are their other circumstances under consideration. Therefore, presenting their words against Mirza Sahib is a futile effort. Furthermore, Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, has stated that there is a chapter among the Sufis called "Shatihat." The essence of this is that conditions pass over them, and in those conditions, some words come out of their mouths that do not adhere to apparent rules and sometimes become a cause of taking the wrong path. The Sufis clarify that no one should act upon them and forbid those who have not experienced these conditions from studying our book. In short, we also understand that a person who possesses a certain state, another empty person will inevitably get entangled with them. However, none of the Sufis advocate for any increase or decrease in religion, and they unanimously call such a claimant a disbeliever. From the other party, by stating a few of Mirza Sahib's beliefs from his books, it has been shown that according to the Holy Quran, Hadith, and Jurisprudence (Fiqh), all those things that have been deemed necessary for a person to be a believer and a Muslim are found in Mirza Sahib and his community, and they sincerely and wholeheartedly believe in and adhere to all of them. And those QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2183 They have been commanded to perform righteous deeds, and they perform them all. And their religion is the same as what the Holy Prophet (PBUH) brought from God. And they believe that if anyone chooses any religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted by God. The plaintiff's witnesses have declared them infidels, apostates, deviant, and out of Islam, and have declared them deniers of the essentials of religion. But the matters on the basis of which they have been called infidels and apostates have not been proven to be essentials of religion from the Holy Quran and authentic hadiths. Rather, they have based their fatwa of infidelity on the sayings of some scholars, and in this context, while objecting to the style of fatwa of those scholars, they have shown with references from several books of jurisprudence that if these matters which are recorded in these references are taken into consideration, then greater elders, and all Shias, and those educated young people who are heard saying that if these present-day clerics are also going to go to Paradise, then we do not want such a Paradise. And all Muslims who are employed in government offices and give gifts to their Hindu or Christian officers are infidels. And for those women who are fed up with the mistreatment of their husbands and want to get out of their marriage contract, this good trick has been told that if any of them says that I am becoming an infidel, then she will become an infidel immediately and her marriage will be dissolved. And all Muslims who wear a Gandhi cap or hat are infidels. And in this way, those Muslims who salute Hindu and English officers are infidels. And in this way, those Muslim students of schools and colleges who respectfully salute their Hindu or Christian teachers, and in this way, thousands of educated people who wear the outdated things of the clerics, which these people consider knowledge and religion, are infidels. And in this way, those Muslims who, when a non-Muslim asks them to explain the truth of Islam to them, take them to a cleric for an answer, are infidels, etc. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 Therefore, if someone can be declared a Kafir based on the words of these scholars and clerics, then under the aforementioned matters, all such Muslims who are described above are Kafirs. And their marriage should not be valid, but the scholars do not act on the aforementioned principles in the present era. And these matters, which are recorded in these references, are considered among the necessities of religion. And whoever denies them is called a Kafir and apostate. After this, it is stated that although the plaintiff has quoted the statements of some commentators in support of her statements, it is a big mistake to accept the statements of commentators blindly and verbatim. And whatever they wrote according to their own thoughts and beliefs should be accepted word for word, therefore, according to the teachings of the Holy Quran, it is necessary for us to ponder and contemplate on the verses of the Holy Quran ourselves. And after investigation, choose what is closest to the truth, so it is not correct to base beliefs on the sayings of the commentators. Blindly following scholars and imams is extremely reprehensible, so it is not necessary that we blindly believe in whatever the earlier scholars wrote in the commentaries. Rather, it is our duty to examine these fatwas and sayings on the touchstone of the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah, and sound reason. And whatever is proven correct from the Quran and Sunnah, accept it and abandon the opposite. And our belief about the scholars of the Ummah is that they have conveyed to us whatever they found in agreement and disagreement with good intentions or whatever they could understand, for which they all deserve our thanks. After this, the answer to the reasons for Takfir starts again, therefore the answer to this discussion is recorded below. Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the witness of the plaintiff, has given a very good answer regarding the beliefs of Mirza Sahib. He says that since Mirza Sahib was not a Kafir by birth and initially grew up on all Islamic beliefs, he was bound by them and said the same, then gradually started to deviate from them. Until in his last statements, he became completely opposed to many necessities of religion. Secondly, that He adopted this tactic to promote false and deceitful claims: to keep the Islamic beliefs that are mentioned in the Quran and Hadith, and that are on the tongues of Muslims, both common and special, intact. But he changed their realities in such a way that it amounted to a denial of those beliefs altogether. Therefore, presenting such statements from Mirza Sahib's books that show that he shares some beliefs with Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah cannot atone for his statements and actions of disbelief, unless it is clarified that the meaning of these beliefs is also the same as that of the majority of the Ummah. And then it should be clarified that he has repented from the beliefs of disbelief that he had adopted. And until a declaration of repentance is made, one cannot escape disbelief by writing the words of a few Islamic beliefs in books. Because a heretic is the one who reveals Islamic beliefs and claims to follow the Quran and Hadith, but interprets and distorts them in such a way that their realities are changed. Therefore, unless it is shown with clarification that Mirza Sahib believes in the finality of prophethood and the cessation of the Antichrist with the same meaning as the Companions, the Successors, and the entire Ummah of Muhammad believe, it is useless to present any such statement of his in opposition, in which he acknowledges the words " خاتم النبین ". Similarly, acknowledging or writing the words of the descent of the Messiah, etc., in any place is by no means useful without the aforementioned clarification, whether that statement is earlier or later in the writing. It has been proven that Mirza Sahib remained firm on his claim of prophethood until the end of his life and did not repent from his beliefs of disbelief. Moreover, even if this is not proven, he cannot be called a Muslim after saying and writing words of disbelief and beliefs of disbelief unless an announcement of repentance from these beliefs is found from him. And this announcement has not been found proven in any of his books or writings. In the opinion of this court, this answer regarding Mirza Sahib's beliefs is very comprehensive and well-reasoned, and although the plaintiff's attorney has also discussed each of his beliefs in detail in his argument, but this AB 1974 In presence, there remains no need for further discussion on these beliefs. The plaintiff's attorney has argued that Mirza Sahib himself did not have complete faith in the Kalima Tayyiba (the declaration of faith). Because complete faith in this Kalima can only be conceived when there is complete faith in the attributes of God and the characteristics of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). Some statements of Mirza Sahib suggest that he found divinity stirring within himself, and saw divine powers and attributes within himself, and described himself as sharing in the characteristics and ranks of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), and does not accept him as Khatam an-Nabiyyin (the Seal of the Prophets) in the sense of the last prophet. Therefore, it cannot be said that he believes in the Kalima Tayyiba with the same requirements as other Muslims. Therefore, he cannot be considered a Muslim. However, in the opinion of this court, there is no need to go into such a detailed discussion because the question of declaring Mirza Sahib an infidel is not the main point of contention in this case, but rather a subsidiary question. The main question is the apostasy and excommunication of the defendant. Therefore, discussion regarding Mirza Sahib's beliefs is only necessary to the extent that it can shed light on the settlement of the aforementioned matters against the defendant. Furthermore, even if this argument is hypothetically accepted as correct, then it would have to be shown that the defendant has the same faith in the Kalima Tayyiba as Mirza Sahib, and its solution will not be without difficulties. Because the defendant's intention cannot be fully assessed. It has been stated on behalf of the defendant that the matters on the basis of which Mirza Sahib and his community have been declared deniers of the necessities of religion and called infidels and apostates, have not been proven to be from the necessities of religion through the Holy Quran or authentic hadiths. It appears that either the defendant has not carefully considered the evidence and arguments presented by the plaintiff, or has deliberately tried to create confusion. The plaintiff's witnesses have, with much repetition and vehemence, and Mirza Sahib himself... QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2189 They have shown through their statements that the belief that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) is the Seal of the Prophets, meaning that no new prophet can come after him, is a necessity of religion based on the text of the Quran, successive hadiths, and the consensus of the Ummah, and denying it is disbelief. And in its support, they have presented many verses of the Quran and hadiths, some of which, as will be shown later, the defendant himself does not deny. Then it is incomprehensible how it was said that they did not present any proof from the Quran or hadith. However, if it were said that the proof was not strong, then there would be something to it. But it is completely contrary to reality to say that no proof from the Quran and hadiths was presented on their behalf. The reasons for declaring disbelief stated by the plaintiff have been listed above. It is possible that about some of them (although it is not so, as will be shown later) it may be said that they are not among the necessities of religion. But regarding the issue of the finality of prophethood, it cannot be said that it is not among the necessities of religion. Although the necessities of religion are a broad term. And it is possible that some scholars, according to their knowledge, have included many such matters under it. That may be debatable. However, it cannot be denied. That the issue of the finality of prophethood is one of the important and fundamental issues of Islam. The meaning of the necessities of religion has been revealed by the witnesses of the plaintiff in their statements. Which has passed above. If even the literal meanings of this term are taken, then these words can mean that those things are necessary to remain within a religion. And by not believing in them, that person cannot be considered a follower of that religion. To believe that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) is the Seal of the Prophets, meaning that he is the last prophet, is necessary and inevitable to remain within the religion of Islam. Because if another prophet is believed in after him, then according to the plaintiff and his witnesses, it will not only be a denial of the text of the Quran and successive hadiths. Rather, what is acted upon will be the revelation of this new prophet, not the Quran, and by this, that person will be excluded from the religion of Islam. AN ALL PAKISTAN SPECIAL ASSEMBLY 130th Aug., 1974 And the fact that believing the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) as the last prophet is not only one of the fundamental issues of their religion for Muslims, but there are examples of this in other religions as well, such as Jews and Christians - whose religions are distinguished merely on the basis that they do not recognize the ancestors of their respective leaders or any prophet. Thus, the belief of Muslims has been that after the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) there will be no other prophet. Now, if a Muslim does not believe in anyone else, then he will not be considered a follower of Islam. Therefore, what issue could be more important than the finality of prophethood among the necessities of religion? It will be shown later that the documents presented in this regard, whose party is more credible and weighty. Here, I find it appropriate to mention that in the present era, many Muslims are unaware of the reality of a prophet. Therefore, this issue cannot take root in their hearts. What is the problem with accepting Mirza Sahib as a prophet, for which so much hue and cry is being raised? Therefore, it is necessary to explain some of its reality. No definition of a prophet has been given by the plaintiff. It has only been said that prophethood is a position that Allah Almighty has been bestowing upon his chosen servants. And the difference between a prophet and a messenger has been explained that every messenger is a prophet. And it is not necessary for a prophet to be a messenger as well. The second party, with reference to number on page 89, has stated that a messenger is a human being whom Allah Almighty sends to preach the commandments of Sharia, unlike a prophet who is common. Whether he brings a book or not. Bringing a book is a condition for a messenger. Thus, another definition of a messenger is that a messenger is one who has a book. Or abrogates some of the previous Sharia laws. Since these definitions were not sufficient to express the truth, therefore I remained in search of finding such a definition of a prophet or messenger that, according to the explanations of the Quran, covers all the requirements of prophethood. In this regard, I found the book "Deen-o-Aaeen" by Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib, Professor Randhir College. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2191 Got a chance to see. Considering the views of the objectors, he described the reality of prophethood in this way: That a person in whose heart a good idea arises without external means and consideration. Such a person is called a prophet. And his thoughts are considered revelation. But even this definition did not seem interesting to me. Finally, an article titled "Mechanical Islam" by Mr. Chaudhry Ghulam Ahmed Sahib Parvez came to my attention in a magazine. In it, he has represented the views of today's enlightened class regarding the religion of Islam. And then he himself has explained its facts. In this context, the reality of prophethood that he has stated. In my opinion, no statement can be better than this. And in my opinion, none of the parties can deny it. Therefore, I am stating this fact in his words. He writes: That according to today's group of rationalists, the concept of a messenger is that he is a political leader and a reformer of the nation. Who, being affected by the misfortune and decline of his nation, calls them towards welfare. And in a short time, by instilling in them the spirit of discipline, makes them the owners of the best regions of the earth. Its reality is like that of a chief of the nation. Whose every command must be followed because deviation creates the danger of disunity in the collective power of the nation. And there is a possibility of losing the worldly blessings that were obtained through his good management. His good management is the best link to the elevation of mental human intellect. Therefore, he is considered the best thinker of his environment. Through excessive asceticism, the forces of evil are taken away from him. And the forces of goodness emerge prominently. In their view, these very forces are called Iblis and angels. He then answered this with reference to Quranic verses. ONEKA AND MERL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 That the Messenger is undoubtedly the peacemaker and the administrator of the nation, but his reality is completely different from the worldly reformers and administrators. Worldly thinkers and administrators are the product of their environment. And their philosophy of reform and improvement is the result of their own flight of thought, which is sometimes right and sometimes wrong. On the contrary, the prophets are commissioned by Allah. And their series in this world runs under a special positive command of the Almighty. They are neither affected by their environment nor are they the product of circumstances. Rather, their selection is from the Kingdom of God. And the source of their knowledge and guidance is the knowledge of the Almighty, in which there is no room for error. Their chest is full of acquired knowledge and their heart is illuminated by the illuminations of eternal light. Worldly politics and thought are qualities. Which is achieved through acquisition. And this ability increases with practice and skill. But the proof is a divine gift and a divine gift in which acquisition and practice have no part. The progress of the nation and the Ummah is also in their view, but the most important thing is the reformation of human morality. His message is above the constraints of time and space. And he is the one who shows the way to all human beings and is obeyed by them. Obedience to him is obedience to God and disobedience to him is disobedience to God. And the code of life that the world recognizes through him. No worldly power can change it. Rather, wherever there is disagreement in the reasonable world, its decision can also be made with his beacon of guidance. They receive divine messages through angels. Although they are beyond the realm of human perception due to being related to the world of affairs, their existence is not merely the angelic powers of man. After keeping this fact in mind, it can be easily understood. That what objection will arise from accepting another prophet after the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). According to the Quranic clarifications, the new prophet will become obedient. He cannot be disagreed with. Everything he says QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION One would have to bow their head in education before him. His orders would be compulsory to follow, otherwise, there would be a risk of one's deeds being in vain. Not even a slight disrespect could be shown to his dignity. In fact, speaking loudly in front of him would also be a sin. Obedience to him would be exactly obedience to God, and turning away from him would lead to being excluded from faith and would cause divine punishment. Therefore, the plaintiff, with reference to Quranic verses and hadiths, has said that no new prophet can come after the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). And no Muslim can remain within the fold of Islam if he believes someone else to be a prophet. The defendant, with reference to the books of jurisprudence, has objected to the style of fatwas (religious edicts) of the scholars. Regarding these, one statement is from the defendant's own witnesses, that the scholars are not fully aware of the modern era. Secondly, the plaintiff says regarding these references that those are words of disbelief (Kufr), not edicts of Takfir (declaring someone a non-believer). A word of Kufr is one thing, and a fatwa of Kufr is another. Based merely on the use of these words by someone, a fatwa will not be issued. Rather, the fatwa will be issued under the principles that are authorized for this purpose. In the opinion of this court, this response of the plaintiff carries weight. Furthermore, the statements of the scholars do not hold the same status in terms of authenticity as the Mutawatir narrations (narrations reported by so many people that it is impossible to deny their authenticity). The intention of the defendant's witnesses in bringing the words under discussion on record and interpreting them according to their own understanding does not seem to be anything other than to trivialize the nature and importance of the issue under discussion. Whereas, the issue of the finality of prophethood has no connection with the issues that have been objected to. And probably they want to create contempt in the hearts of the common people regarding the scholars by expressing condemnation of their style of issuing fatwas. And to stir up the feelings of people of every sect and every class against them. And to gain the sympathy of the enlightened class of the present era, which considers itself the standard-bearer of every reform. AL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 The indifference towards religion nowadays is beyond description. In the time of the revelation of the Holy Quran, those who did not believe in it used to call it a confused dream and legends of the ancients. In the present era, those who do not want to completely shake off religion, do not dare to utter these words, but they do not have complete faith in the truths and knowledge of the Quran. According to Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib, they are heard saying that Islam does not have the ability to keep pace with the times, and that Islam does not have the ability to change its ways in such revolutions and to follow another path due to the new needs arising from the changing circumstances that require the nations of the world to change their ways. And its followers cannot make any reforms or amendments in their circumstances and cannot support any new civilization. Maulana Sahib has already answered this objection in his book "Deen-o-Aain". I have nothing to do with it. The purpose here was only to show that such ideas are common nowadays, and according to the principles stated by the defendant, there is enough scope for reform in Islam according to the views of this class. Therefore, by creating mistrust against the scholars on the part of the defendant, an attempt has been made to create contempt and hatred against them in the hearts of this class. An effort has been made to show that the scholars presented by the plaintiff in this case are followers of old-fashioned ideas and are prone to excommunication, and to ridicule the reasons for excommunication given by them. And it should be shown that the reasons for excommunication given by them have no reality. And they have called the Ahmadiyya community infidels only because the principles of the Ahmadiyya community refer to religious authority, and they are compelled by their old habits to do so out of spite and malice. Otherwise, in fact, none of their beliefs or actions reach the level of disbelief. However, the issue under discussion is not like that. QADIANI ISSUE – GENERAL DISCUSSION I am not saying that he should be ridiculed in this way. That scholars do not make mistakes. Or that they are free from human frailties. But this does not mean that their opinion should not be given importance. And that no attention should be paid to anything they say. Rather, their statements should be considered with a cool head. And to see how far they are on the right path, what they have done regarding the issue of the finality of Prophethood is not without truth. Regarding the objection raised by the defendant on the references of the books of Tafsir, it is enough to write only this much that these references have neither been recorded here nor does this decision depend on these references and in terms of authenticity only the Holy Quran and Hadiths have been considered as the criteria for settlement. And this action had to be adopted because both the parties have presented innumerable sayings in support of their respective claims, the number of which reaches hundreds. The defendant did not accept any of the books presented by the plaintiff as proof against himself, except for the books of Mirza Sahib and his caliphs, and he should have done so according to his belief. Because when he considers Mirza Sahib as a prophet, then for him, the only thing that can be followed is the revelation of Mirza Sahib. It is not surprising for him not to accept other books as proof. As for the Quran and Hadiths, he has adopted this attitude that whatever meaning of the Quranic verses has been explained by the plaintiff, he has either stated that it is not correct. Or he has misinterpreted it. And regarding the hadiths, he has accepted the hadith which was useful for his purpose, and regarding the hadith which was against him, he has either denied its authenticity. Or he has also misinterpreted it. And this action of his is not against the teachings of Mirza Sahib. Because Mirza Sahib says that the hadith which contradicts my revelation is worthy of being thrown in the trash can. Apart from this, the defendant has presented references to the books of other authors. 2190 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 197. have done. Regarding them, his plea is that since they are authored by persons of the same religion as the plaintiff, he has presented them as evidence against the plaintiff as well. They are not evidence for him. Therefore, it has been considered not only unnecessary to discuss these references, but also fraught with difficulties because the parties have also accused each other of betrayal. And objections have also been raised that the books of some authors are not accepted by them. Therefore, to determine the extent of betrayal, and which author's book is in accordance with the beliefs of the parties, and whether they are among the accepted beliefs of the parties or not, and whether the conclusions drawn from them are correct or not, and whether the parties can be held bound by their opinion. It requires a lot of time, extensive study and considerable effort. And even then, the outcome is not expected to be completely clear and comprehensible. Therefore, all other references have been ignored by focusing on the Holy Quran and Hadiths on one hand and the books of Mirza Sahib and his successors on the other. It has been said on behalf of the defendant that the plaintiff's witnesses' claim that the claim of Wahi (revelation) is Kufr (disbelief), and if any person claims absolute Wahi, even if he does not claim Prophethood, he is still a Kafir (disbeliever), and that Wahi in mankind is specific to prophets and for others there can be Kashf (unveiling), Ilham (inspiration) or Wahi Ma'nawi (spiritual revelation), is not correct because in the verse of the Holy Quran "وَمَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ" etc., Allah Almighty did not say that He only speaks to the prophets through these three methods mentioned in the said verse, and not to non-prophets, but in this verse the word "Bashar" (human) has been used, which includes both prophets and non-prophets. It is evident from Surah Al-Qasas Ruku (section) number, verse وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى أُمِّ مُوسَىٰ أَنْ (And We inspired to the mother of Moses, saying) that if Wahi was specific to prophets, then this Wahi would not have been revealed to the mother of Moses by God. Similarly, the verse فَاَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوْحَنَا (Then We sent to her Our Angel) from Surah Maryam and the verse إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ (When the angels said, "O Maryam...") QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Referring to Maghze Cheen and Surah Kahf, verse number 11, "Takna Ya Zulqarnain Hanna" Close associates Statements were presented to show that: 1. Revelation is not exclusive to prophets, but can occur to non-prophets as well, as mentioned above. 2. In the same ways that Allah Almighty speaks to the prophets (peace be upon them), He also communicates with non-prophets, i.e., saints, as evident in verse number 1. The descent of angels is not exclusive to the prophets (peace be upon them); sometimes, non-prophets also receive revelation that contains commands and prohibitions, and the revelation to non-prophets also includes news of the unseen. Further, the defendant's witness states that the plaintiff's witnesses claimed that after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), no one can receive revelation, and whoever claims to do so is an infidel, but they did not provide any evidence from the Holy Quran or hadith. Only one witness, referring to the verse "وَاللهُنَ يُؤْمِنُونَ من قبلک", stated that if any revelation had been sent down after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), it would have been mentioned in this verse. Since it is not mentioned, it is clear that there can be no revelation after him. One answer to this is that this verse refers to legislative revelation, and since such revelation that abrogates the Shariah of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has been discontinued, it is not mentioned. To support this, the opinions of several scholars are quoted, stating that scholars say that we have no information that there will be legislative revelation after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), but rather inspirational revelation. Another answer is that senior scholars have written that the Promised Messiah will receive revelation, and in a hadith, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) says that the Promised Messiah will receive revelation from God. The third answer is that whoever believes in the Holy Quran and accepts that the Promised Messiah will come, then he will receive revelation. 7544 ROUTKANAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 will believe in God. So in this respect, this verse indicates the cessation of legislative revelation, not the cessation of non-legislative revelation. As evidence for the fact that non-Sharia revelation can occur after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), and its door is not closed to the perfect supporter of the Holy Prophet, the following important verses, "Yeh Waleh Saleeqa," Para 9, Ruku 8, and "Afla Yaraan Quwat," Para 16, Ruku 13, are referenced, stating that these verses prove that it is necessary for God to speak to his servants. So how can it be accepted that the Lord of the Sacred Mosque and the revealer of the Quran, who refutes the worship and divinity of the calf due to its lack of speech, would treat his beloved servants in the same way? Furthermore, from the verse " ومن اضل من نافون " Surah Al-Taffaf, Ruku number, it is concluded that God Almighty can call out to His servants and answer them. And from the verse " قل ان کنتم تحبون الله .. الخ" Al-Imran, Ruku number, it is deduced that God loves His servants, and it is self-evident that love involves speaking to and listening to one's beloved, and expressing oneself; otherwise, the absence of speech would indicate a deficiency in love, because the beloved's silence is evidence of displeasure. And God, who is more merciful to His servants than parents, certainly speaks to His beloved servants, and there is no reason why He would not speak to them now, when He used to speak to His loved ones. One of the attributes of Allah, which is a supreme proof of His divinity, is that He is the Speaker. So how can it be accepted that this attribute should be suspended until the Day of Judgment, and it be said that His attribute of speaking has ceased, meaning that He will no longer speak to anyone? Then how will His being All-Hearing be known? Those who say this will still say that He was All-Hearing before, but not now. To support this, another worldly example is given: if a lover goes to the door of his beloved in a state of restlessness, sighing and lamenting, but the beloved does not open the door and no voice comes from inside, then surely that lover will return disappointed, and will think that either his beloved has died or he is being deceived. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION So, in this way, Allah Almighty, whose vision we cannot attain due to His being beyond the beyond and subtle, if He cannot console His devotees with speech, then they will eventually become disillusioned and abandon Him. The essence of affection and love has been instilled in human nature, and one would never consider a beloved from whose sight and speech one feels perpetually deprived as the abode of one's love. A true lover yearns intensely in their heart to converse with their beloved and regards His words as a panacea and divine signs. So, how can that All-Knowing, All-Aware Being who is the creator of feelings and emotions within humans deprive His devotees of His communion? And in support of this, the following verses: "And when My servants ask you concerning Me, I am indeed near..." etc., and "They said... the angels descend upon them" - Sura Fussilat, Verse 30 were presented. Subsequently, verses of "The Exalted Above [all] degrees, Owner of the Throne, [He directs] the command upon whom He wills" - Surah Ghafir, Verse 15 and "The angels descend with the Spirit by the permission of their Lord for every matter. Peace it is until the emergence of dawn." - Surah Al-Qadr, Verse 4 were used to argue that just as Allah Almighty has honored His servants with His revelation in former times, so He will continue to do so in the future because the cause of the descent of revelation in the verse is Allah Almighty's being "Exalted Above [all] degrees, Owner of the Throne" and a necessity has been designated. So, while Allah Almighty is still "Exalted Above [all] degrees, Owner of the Throne," there has been no change in Him, and people have also become spiritually dead. Then why should the cessation of revelation be accepted? Allah Almighty says: "You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind..." meaning that the Ummah of Muhammad (peace be upon him) is better than all other nations, and the blessings upon it have been completed, and God has also taught us this prayer: "The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor," that O God, lead us on the path of Your beloved and near-to-Your-Presence servants, that is, the prophets, the truthful, the martyrs, and the righteous. So how can sound reason accept that the Ummah of Muhammad (peace be upon him), which is better than all other nations, be deprived of divine bounties? Besides the men of previous nations, Allah Almighty also honored women with His speech, and angels descended upon them, but the Ummah of Muhammad (peace be upon him)... A PARISIAN August 130th, 1974 Even the highest ranking man wouldn't receive this reward, so to say that the door of divine revelation is closed to the deceased community and that God does not speak to them, then how did this become the best of names? And it is a mistake to say that God Almighty, after the Holy Prophet (PBUH) who came as a blessing for the whole world, has snatched this reward from the people and has deprived even one individual from the community of the blessed honor of being spoken to by Him forever. Allah Almighty and His Holy Messenger and the saints of the community are saying that this divine grace is not closed to this community. And the Holy Prophet (PBUH) says that among you, in the nation of Bani Israel, there were people who, despite not being prophets, God Almighty spoke to. If there is anyone like that in my community, it is Umar. In another narration, the word is Muhaddith (one who is spoken to). The companions asked the Holy Prophet (PBUH), "O Messenger of Allah, what does Muhaddith mean?" The Holy Prophet (PBUH) replied, "Angels speak on his tongue." After this, with references to the books of Hazrat Sheikh Ibn Arabi, Hazrat Imam Rabbani Mujaddid Alf Thani, and Maulana Room, it has been stated that according to them also, it is found that all types of revelation mentioned in the Quran are found in God's servants, the saints of Allah, and the revelation that is with the prophet is special, and is the revelation of Sharia, and that the revelation that happens to the prophets (peace be upon them) also happens to some perfect individuals of this community. And as Maulana Room has said, it is the revelation of truth, but the Sufis call it the revelation in the heart for the sake of hiding from the common people. And that the ways in which the prophets (peace be upon them) receive divine inspiration, the saints of Allah receive it in the same ways, although there is a difference in naming them terminologically. And this is the terminology of the scholars. And the terminology has been established according to the difference in ranks, that the revelation of the prophets is called revelation, and the revelation of the saints is called inspiration. And that revelation also happens to the saint through an angel. And according to the belief of the claimant, revelation will descend upon them upon the descent of Samiti, and regarding this, the scholars say that it will be on the tongue of Hazrat Jibril (peace be upon him). QADIANI ISSUE Further, it has been said that what has been shown from the books of Mirza Sahib, that he also considers the series of revelation to be terminated after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then his intention there is revelation of Sharia, not other revelation which he keeps ongoing. From these details, it has been concluded that after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), such revelation continues in which there are no new commands and prohibitions. And those scholars who have said that the series of revelation and inspiration is closed after him, then by that is meant such revelation that contains new commands and prohibitions contrary to the Sharia of Muhammad. Not absolute revelation, the remaining of which in the Ummah of Muhammad is proven by the Holy Quran, Hadith and the sayings of the elders of the religion. Further on, another heading starts, under which the answer to this discussion is recorded. Regarding the revelation about which the plaintiff has said that claiming it is disbelief, it means revelation of prophethood. In the opinion of the plaintiff, the word revelation is only specific to the prophets. And they do not believe that the revelation that a prophet receives can also happen to non-prophets. Therefore, it is now to be decided from the defendant's argument whether this type of revelation that happens to prophets can also happen to non-prophets or not. Regarding this, the Quranic verses that have been presented by the defendant, from their apparent words, it is found that revelation happened to the mother of Moses, angels descended upon Mary, and Allah Almighty spoke to Dhul-Qarnayn. But if this conclusion is drawn from the use of some of these words, أَوْحَيْنَا قَالَتُ, الملائكة, and قُلنا, then this is not correct because the word revelation in the Holy Quran has been used not only for the possessors of intellect but also for those without intellect, as it is in Surah An-Nahl that the bee was given revelation. Here, in my opinion, the defendant cannot mean by revelation that revelation which happens to prophets. Here, surely it will have some other meanings, such as instilling it in nature or suggesting it. In this way, the word revelation has also been used in several other places in the Holy Quran, from the context of which it cannot be concluded that the word there That means the kind of revelation that happens to prophets, and probably to eliminate this class, this commentary was stated in the Holy Quran regarding the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, that We have sent this kind of revelation to you. As it was sent to Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob and their descendants. Surah Nisa Para 20 Ruku No. 3 Verse: إِنْ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ كَمَا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى نُوح... Zabura - al Therefore, in those instances where the meaning of the revelation of prophethood cannot be derived from the use of the word revelation, the meaning of this word, as the scholars have said, should be taken as inspiration or putting in the heart. Similarly, there is another place in the Holy Quran وَإِنَّ الشَّيَاطِينَ لَيُوحُونَ إِلَى أَوْلِيَائِهِمْ, so can the revelation of the prophets be taken from the use of the word revelation here as well? There are many other such words in the Holy Quran whose apparent meanings are not taken. For example, the word "Fitna" which is generally taken to mean "trial", is not supported in this way. That angels always descend and speak on behalf of God Almighty as messengers. It is possible that their influence on good people may be in connection with the general order of the universe or in the degrees of spiritual progress. Therefore, the descent of angels on Mary does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that God speaks to non-prophets in the same way as he does to prophets. The verse which is about Dhul-Qarnayn. The answer is that according to some he was a prophet. If he was a prophet, then he must have received the revelation of prophethood. And if he was not a prophet, then the mere use of the word about him is not enough to draw the conclusion in general that God Almighty can speak to non-prophets as well. Besides, even if it is accepted that Umm Musa and Mary received the same revelation as the prophets, it does not necessarily follow that such revelations can happen to non-prophets because these women were the mothers of prophets. And there was a constant threat to these two prophets that they might be killed after they were born. Therefore, to comfort their mothers. To give QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION If Allah Almighty has honored him with His conversation, then there is nothing strange in that. Then this is also worth considering that these events are before the advent of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). It is possible It may have been deemed necessary by the will of God to converse with specific individuals under special circumstances. This is supported by the defendant's own argument, as he states that The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that there have been people in the children of Israel who, despite not being prophets, Allah Almighty used to speak to them. Therefore, Dhul-Qarnain can also be considered in the same category. But after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that after me, nothing remains of prophethood except There is nothing left but good tidings, then how can it be said that non-prophets also receive the same revelation that prophets receive? receive. This hadith has been accepted as authentic by the opposing party, but they have interpreted it as being This relates to common people, not the elite. If the elite were exempt from this, there would have been no reason for the Messenger Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not clarify it. This hadith has also been narrated by Hazrat Aisha. As for the sayings and writings of the Sufis, one answer regarding them has already been given above with reference to the statement of Syed Anwar Shah Sahib that he has forbidden those people who are not familiar with their terms, from looking into their books. And its second The answer is also quoted in the words of Shah Sahib mentioned above. He says that the Sufis have taken prophethood in its literal sense and established it, and its interpretation is this: Gaining information and conveying information to others, and under this, both the prophets (peace be upon them) and the saints are included. And they divided prophethood into two types: Sharia prophethood and non-Sharia prophethood. Under Sharia prophethood, they included both revelation and messengers. both listed and now these For them, non-Sharia prophethood has become confined to the unveiling and inspiration of the saints and is exclusive. The Sufis have clarified that even the status of recommended acts cannot be established through unveiling. Its scope is only secrets and knowledge of spiritual experiences, and they clarify that our unveiling is dependent on others. 2204 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 (His) health is not good. Our unveiling is for us. The witness mentioned this definition of unveiling, inspiration, and revelation: unveiling is when a form is seen with the eyes, or its meaning is extracted by the one having the unveiling; some content is put (in the mind) during the day and explained, is this inspiration? God sent a message, according to His code, that is revelation, definitive revelation, and unveiling and inspiration are speculative. Among mankind, it is specific to prophets. For others, there is unveiling or inspiration, or there can be spiritual revelation, not Sharia (legal). The distinction between Sharia and non-Sharia revelation made by the defendant has no support other than the sayings of elders. And these sayings have been interpreted and explained by the plaintiff, and it has been shown what these elders meant by these sayings, and their other explicit sayings have been presented, in which they acknowledge the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) as the Seal of the Prophets, meaning the last prophet, and do not consider the arrival of any other prophet after him possible. But there is no need to discuss them because they cannot be evidence against the Holy Quran and Hadiths, and the objection raised by the defendant against the plaintiff that she did not present any proof from the Quran or Hadith regarding the necessities of religion being reasons for excommunication, applies all the more to the defendant himself, who has not presented any proof from the Quran and Hadiths regarding the division he has made between Sharia and non-Sharia revelation. It has been said merely through speculation that the verse referred to by the plaintiff does not mention future revelation, it indicates the cessation of Sharia revelation. It has been rightly said by the plaintiff that the definitions of prophethood that the Sufis have given are according to their own established terminologies, therefore it is not correct to consider their established terminologies as evidence against the general Ummah. The revelation to the Promised Messiah is one of the exceptions, which was itself made by the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and it is a mistake to draw the conclusion of the continuation of the revelation of prophethood with generality from it. And what was said on behalf of the plaintiff regarding the word "tisheer" in the statement of claim is that it refers to the prophets (peace be upon them). But even if ordinary humans are taken to mean, it does not follow that God generally speaks to people. Rather, in it, Allah Almighty has shown the ways of speaking to His servants. The rest of the speaking or not speaking depends on His own will. Therefore, the plaintiff's witnesses have rightly said that if revelation had continued after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), it would have been clearly stated in the Holy Quran because the welfare of the Ummah depended on it. As for what has been stated with reference to Maulana Rum's book Masnavi, that he writes that the revelations that the saints receive are actually the true revelations. And the saints call it "daji dil" for the sake of concealing themselves from the common people. These are their poetic thoughts, and as Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, has said, the scholar does not approve of imposing it. And then, where they have written the words "true revelation," the sentence "And Allah knows best what is right" is also present with it. From this, their meaning can be understood on its own. The argument from the above-mentioned verses of Para No. 9, Ruku No. 8, and Para 16, Ruku No. 13, is also not correct. That there can be revelation without Sharia after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) because, firstly, the verses relate to that time and those circumstances that existed at the time of the revelation of the Quran. And in them, those people are addressed who are unfamiliar with and heedless of the worship of God, and now, after the teachings of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), even the lowest of Muslims cannot believe that God Almighty is not All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and All-Knowing. As for His speaking to people, it depends on His will. He cannot be forced to speak by anyone's sighs, lamentations, or cries. The example of worldly lovers is applied to divine love in a very inappropriate way. However, even if this example is kept in mind, the teachings of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are not so deficient that the lovers of God, if they have truly become lovers of God in the full sense, turn away disappointed from the door of God, or, God forbid... ...... 1 PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Imagine that their beloved has died or betrayed them. Even if a worldly beloved, upon hearing the lamentations of their lover, sends them a gift from within, or upon hearing their plea, fulfills a task for them, then despite the fact that they do not speak to them or show their face, their lover will surely understand that their beloved is alive and loves them. The number of such lovers in the world is not insignificant after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). One can find such lovers not only in Islam but in every religion, in the hundreds. If the means of communication with Allah Almighty is considered to be the yearning of the hearts of His lovers, then surely Allah Almighty, in this period, if not with every lover, then with one out of every hundred thousand, if not after ten or fifteen years, then after a hundred thousand years, would have spoken to someone. It cannot be that after maintaining complete silence for thirteen hundred years, He only chose to communicate with one person, and that too mostly in the old language of thirteen hundred years ago, as if He has run out of words and meanings. If, God forbid, God has no new material or new words for communication, then what is the fault of the poor clerics who are branded as traditionalists and ridiculed, since they have to interpret God's old word in the same way as it has always been interpreted. If the satisfaction of lovers was merely through conversation, and if this was the only source of knowledge of the existence of God, that whenever a lover in a state of restlessness reached His door lamenting, the door would immediately open for him, then Islam would have been wiped off the face of the earth long ago. Because a period of thirteen hundred years is not such that lovers, God forbid, would have remained at His door seeing this indifference of God Almighty. Rather, according to the witness of the defendant, they would have long ago returned, disappointed. And then what is the guarantee that Allah Almighty only speaks to those lovers who belong to the religion of Islam and not to others? Moreover, the satisfaction of lovers is not merely through conversation, but QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2207 As the defendant's witness has also stated, the goal is to see friends. Therefore, it is possible that when lovers enjoy the conversation of the beloved, then even in the intoxication of their love, like the people of Moses, they start chanting "Show us God plainly". And instead of enjoying the sight of the beloved, they also sink their own boat. It is not polytheism that in the hearts of true lovers there is definitely a longing for their beloved. The cure for satisfying this longing is not that there must be a conversation with the beloved. The Exalted Himself has prescribed the cure for satisfying the longing of His lovers in His living word, the Holy Quran, as follows: "Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest." And in case of increased anxiety, He said: "And when My servants ask you about Me, (tell them) I am near." The defendant's witness has used this verse as evidence for the continuation of revelation, but if revelation is taken to mean the kind of response mentioned in this verse, then it is possible for God Almighty to speak to every individual human being, and every person can become a place of divine manifestation. By adopting this kind of reasoning, no greatness or dignity of religion can be manifested, nor can any truth be revealed. The defendant's witness has stated that God's not speaking is a sign of anger and displeasure. So should it be understood from this that all those with whom God Almighty has not spoken before, are all under God Almighty's wrath and are deserving of divine punishment? God forbid. Regarding the remaining two verses in Surah Mumin and Para 14, Ruku from which reference has been given in connection with the continuation of revelation, it is not proven that revelation continues. Rather, these verses, according to the defendant's own division, relate only to legislative revelation. Because it is mentioned in them that the person to whom revelation is given is commanded to warn people of the Day of Judgment. Therefore, according to the defendant's own definition, this type of revelation will be considered only legislative revelation, and this series is according to the defendant's claim of 2208 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 According to Allah Almighty, it ended with the arrival of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). And according to him, no legislative prophet can come now, so the issuance of absolute revelation cannot be inferred from these verses. The argument of him is that when Allah Almighty taught us this prayer, "O Allah, guide us on the straight path, and on the path of those whom You have bestowed Your blessings." And then in another Surah, He explained who are the people upon whom God has bestowed blessings. Regarding this, He said that they are the Prophets, the truthful, the martyrs, and the righteous. From this, it was instilled that by following Allah and His Messenger Muhammad Mustafa (peace be upon him), you can attain these four ranks according to your status. Therefore, it cannot be that the Ummah of Muhammad receives the blessings of three ranks and the attainment of the fourth rank, i.e., prophethood, is impossible for it. Whereas the previous nations have attained this reward again and again, then how is this the best of names? And it cannot be said that the door of divine revelation is closed to the Ummah Marhuma and that the reward that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) came with as a mercy for the whole world has been taken away from the people. The reply to this from the claimant is that the words "with those whom Allah has blessed" in the verse "Whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger" means companionship, not the bestowal of rank. The meaning of the objection of the defendant is that when the other ranks mentioned in this verse besides the Prophet can be attained by following the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), then why can't the rank of prophethood be attained? If this argument is hypothetically If it is accepted as true, then it will be necessary to consider that prophethood is an acquired thing. Which can be achieved through following the Sunnah and asceticism, whereas it is proved by the texts of the Holy Quran that prophethood is not acquired. And Mirza Sahib has also admitted it, as he writes on page 84 of his book "Supplement to Al-Khatwa Fi Al-Islam" that prophethood is an inherent quality established with the person of the Prophet, neither can it be acquired, nor can it ever be taken away. If prophethood could be attained by following the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), then there is no reason why all the saints, abdal, and aqtab who have passed away to this day QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION None of them would have attained this status. Furthermore, if it is understood that this status can be attained through perfect adherence to and grace from the Prophet, and the Prophet also considered it permissible, then it is necessary that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, should have taught his followers prayers and invocations for the attainment of other ranks and levels, and also taught some prayer etc. for this status. So that the individuals of the Ummah could have some ease in attaining it. Because it was far from the Prophet's compassion that he would put the Ummah in so much trouble and hard work, that after a long period of waiting and worship, only one person would be given this blessing. If it was not appropriate in your opinion to teach any prayer etc., then at least you should have clarified that you can get this status, you should strive for its attainment. You neither made any such clarification, nor did you show any way for it, but you kept saying that there is no prophet after me and I am the last of the prophets, etc., as if, God forbid, you were deceiving the Ummah so that they would not stand up against you by attaining this status somewhere. Rather, your being a mercy to the worlds demanded that you produce more prophets from your Ummah than the previous prophets and provide a higher and clearer proof of your being the best of the prophets. Therefore, keeping in view the other clarifications of the Holy Quran, the meaning of the above-mentioned verse will be taken that those people will be in the company of the prophets and since the defendant is very fond of worldly examples, therefore, its example can be that like the government gives a person a place in its court with one of its distinguished officials due to his personal dignity and status. So it cannot be said that the person has attained the rank of that official or that he has been made eligible to attain his rank. In this way, Allah Almighty has stated that those people whose virtues have been mentioned in the previous verses. They will be with the Prophets, the martyrs, the truthful, and the righteous. Therefore, this argument of the defendant is of no value. 2210 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 It is not important that if the Ummah of Muhammad does not get the status of proof, then it does not remain the best of nations. For it to be the best of nations, God has given it many other ranks. The Holy Quran has not left it in need of preferring prophethood to the slavery of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), but great and illustrious prophets have longed to be included in his Ummah. It is a pity that the teachings of the Quran were not fully considered, otherwise this objection would not have been raised. The Holy Quran does not fully clarify the ultimate extent of human life. And as Chaudhry Ghulam Ahmad Sahib Parwez writes in the above-mentioned article, even Paradise, which is generally considered the ultimate destination, is not actually the ultimate destination, but a beautiful sight on the way, as is evident from this prayer of the inhabitants of Paradise in the Holy Quran: مقولون ربنا اقسم لنا نورنا This ultimate end has been kept a secret. It is not known what will be bestowed upon the Ummah by the grace of the Prophet. Therefore, the defendant has not been successful in proving that the revelation that comes to the prophets (peace be upon them) is still continuing, but only inspiration and divine visions etc. remain, as claimed by the plaintiff. And in their literal sense, it can be called revelation. The decision of this case depends mostly on the belief of considering the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as the Seal of the Prophets in the sense of the last prophet. As mentioned above by the plaintiff, with reference to Quranic verses, hadiths, and consensus, it has been shown that there can be no prophet after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), except that he himself made an exception, i.e., Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him), and that before Mirza Sahib's claim and even now, except for the followers of Mirza Sahib, all Muslims believe that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the last prophet in terms of the number and advent of prophets. And no other prophet can come after him. If a Muslim does not believe in anyone else, he becomes a disbeliever and an apostate. It is said on behalf of the defendant that the status of prophethood can be attained through perfect obedience and grace of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And he interprets the meaning of the Seal of the Prophets contrary to the belief of the general Muslims. that Allah Almighty made Hazrat (PBUH) the owner of the خاتم (seal/ring). He (SWT) granted you the seal for additional perfection, which was not given to any other prophet. For this reason, you were named خاتم النبین (Seal of the Prophets). That is, following you bestows the perfections of prophethood, and your spiritual attention is a prophet maker. And in the verse of the Holy Quran in which these words are recorded, the defendant has interpreted them to mean that the words خاتم النبین after the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) were brought because every prophet was the spiritual father of his ummah. Just saying that you are the father of your ummah as a messenger would not show any superiority over other messengers. That is why Allah Almighty made you خاتم النبین, making you distinct from other messengers. Other prophets were only the fathers of the believers of their ummah, but you are such a great and glorious prophet that you are the father of prophets as well. That is, following you and spiritual attention bestows the spiritual perfections of prophethood. And if its meaning is taken for the last, then there is no virtue in it for you. To this extent, the defendant's interpretation is correct in that Allah Almighty intended to show the superiority of Hazrat (PBUH) over other prophets, so the words خاتم النبین were used. But it is incomprehensible how the mere use of the word خاتم implies that you are a prophet maker. Because even if the meaning of خاتم is taken as a seal, it can still highlight the superiority of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) that you are the seal on the previous prophets. And even this mere interpretation that you are the father of the prophets is enough to show your superiority. Then it is not known how the series of procreation of prophets in the future has been derived from this detailed paternal relationship of yours, and then procreation is only of one prophet. There is no doubt that other scholars have also interpreted خاتم to mean seal, and recently the translation of the Holy Quran published by Maulana Mahmood ul Hasan Sahib Deobandi. The meaning of خاتم is also recorded in it, and he writes the meaning of خاتم النبین as seal. October, 1974 Are upon all the prophets, and in my opinion, these meanings seem correct from the context of the passage. The defendant will object to this by asking from where it is derived that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ is the last prophet. The answer to this is that, firstly, the fact that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ is the last prophet is derived from the hadiths and the unanimous belief of the Ummah. The Ummah has always considered you to be the last prophet. And as Maulvi Murtaza Hasan Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, stated, all the saints, Abdals, Aqtab, Mujtahideen, and Mujaddids who have come until today have not confused this belief. Secondly, the defendant also does not deny that Khatam-un-Nabiyeen means the last. And the Ummah has been in agreement on this meaning. An attempt has been made by the defendant to break the reality of this consensus, but he cannot deny it. Before Mirza Sahib's claim, the belief of the majority of the Ummah was like this. Therefore, to call a factual matter wrong is an unnecessary argument. The defendant has shown from dictionaries and Arabic idioms that the word 'Khatam,' when read with a 'zabar' (vowel mark) on the 'ta,' is used in the meanings of a ring or seal. And if read with a 'zer' (vowel mark), it means one who finishes, or one who seals. And the word 'Khatam' is frequently used in the meanings of perfection. And that the original meaning of 'Khatam' is not the last. If the meaning of 'last' is also taken, then it will be called a implied meaning, not the original meaning. And when the original meaning can be taken, why should the implied meaning be taken? If 'Khatam' is used in the meanings of 'last' anywhere, it is taken by taking the implied meaning. And since there is no explicit evidence in the Holy Quran that indicates taking only the implied meaning, how is it correct to leave all its other meanings and take only the meaning of 'last'? But in this case, the question under discussion relates to belief, not to the meaning or intention of the words. What needs to be seen is what the belief is. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2215 based on the meaning. When, according to the defendant, the meaning of "Khatam" can be "last," and the belief has remained based on this for thirteen hundred years, then debating these words to say that their meaning is not "last" but "seal" has no status except for academic interest. Furthermore, it cannot be said about the scholars who have been interpreting it as "last" before, that they were not familiar with its dictionary or origin. Therefore, debating the meaning of this word is futile. Moreover, Mirza Sahib also used to interpret "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin" as "last" before his claim, as has been shown in the statements of the plaintiff's witnesses. Later meanings are merely interpretations and have been done to color his claim. And now, for the defendant to say that wherever Mirza Sahib has considered the chain of revelation to be severed after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), he meant the revelation of Sharia, not other revelation, is not correct because wherever he has considered the revelation to be severed, he has not clarified it. And from the context, it appears that he is talking about the cessation of all kinds of revelation. These statements of his are of the kind which have been explained in paragraph number 2 at the beginning of the defendant's argument, that they have an independent meaning in themselves, therefore, other statements of Mirza Sahib cannot explain or interpret them. Such statements from which Mirza Sahib is found to believe in the cessation of revelation are recorded in detail in the statements of the plaintiff's witnesses, which have been recorded in the answer. Then, on behalf of the defendant, it has been said regarding the issue of Khatm-e-Nabuwwat that looking at the hadiths, it appears that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not consider prophethood to be completely closed off by the verse "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin," as is evident from the hadith "If Ibrahim had lived, he would have been a prophet." Because the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said this five years after the revelation of the verse "Khatam-un-Nabiyyin." But firstly, there is doubt about the authenticity of this hadith, which the defendant's witness himself has expressed. Secondly, there is a conditional word "if" in it. 2214 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 And according to the rules of Arabic, it has been admitted by the defendant that where "Lo" enters, occurrence does not take place. Thirdly, there is no detail of prophethood in it, what kind of prophethood it will be. Fourthly, the possibility of prophethood was on the life of Durrat Ibrahim when he died, the possibility of prophethood also passed away, so how can the result of the continuation of future prophethood be drawn from it. A saying of Hazrat Aisha has been quoted by the defendant, "قولوا خاتم النبيين ولا تقولون لا نبي بعده" and the result has been drawn that from this saying it is clear that those people who understand from the words "خاتم الہین" and "لا نبی بعدی" that no prophet can come after you are mistaken. In this context, it has been said again that the second testimony is of Hazrat Ali, which is that once his son was sitting with the teacher and studying. Once, Hazrat Ali happened to pass by there and said, "Teach both of them the word 'خاتم النبین' with a ' زیر ' under the 'ت'. In another recitation, 'خاتم' has also come with a ' زیر ' under the 'ت', so if in the opinion of Hazrat Ali, the meaning of 'خاتم' with a ' زیر ' under the 'ت' was the last prophet, then why did he forbid teaching with a ' زیر '? Because the meaning of ending becomes more clear with a ' زیر '. Does it not prove that you understood the difference between the two and you feared that teaching with a ' زیر ' might instill a belief against the faith in the minds of the children. Regarding Hazrat Ali, the hadith "لا نبی بعدی" which has been narrated and which has already passed above with reference to Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, has been accepted as correct by the defendant, but its interpretation is that "بعد ی" here does not mean after death as is commonly understood, but "بعدی" means the period of the Battle of Tabuk, that is, no prophet will be after you during this period. And in this connection, another hadith has been quoted and it has been stated that its meaning is that, O Ali, are you not pleased to be my successor, just as Harun was the successor of Musa, but yes, you will not be a prophet. And from this, the conclusion has been drawn that the need to say this sentence was this. When Hazrat Ali was likened to Harun, there could have been a suspicion that he, like Hazrat Harun, was also a prophet. Therefore, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) clarified that you would be my successor, not a prophet. All these arguments are merely speculative and have no academic value. Their response can also be speculative. The story that has been narrated about Hazrat Ali's sons, it is possible that Hazrat Ali forbade teaching with a "zair" ( زیر ) because the aspect of the Holy Prophet's (PBUH) virtue is not fully revealed with a "zair." And by teaching with a "zabar" ( زبر ), both aspects become prominent. And if it is understood that at that time, Hazrat Ali had this in mind that teaching with a "zair" creates the confusion of the cessation of prophethood, and that according to him, prophethood would continue after the Prophet (PBUH), then on the occasion of the Battle of Tabuk, when the Prophet (PBUH) likened him to Harun (peace be upon him) and said, "There is no prophet after me," he could have said, "O Prophet, since you are like Musa and like Harun (peace be upon them), and I am your cousin, why don't you pray for me as Musa (peace be upon him) did, that God may also make me a prophet?" And based on mutual similarity, it would not have been surprising if God had bestowed upon him the status of prophethood through the Prophet's (PBUH) prayer. These are merely such speculations that do not even reach the level of niceties. And in religion, as has been admitted by the defendant himself, only certainties are considered, not possibilities or speculations. As for Hazrat Aisha's saying, three answers have been given on behalf of the plaintiff. One is that by saying "La Nabi Ba'dah" (لا نبی بعدہ), since there was a fear that some heretical person might deny the descent of Hazrat Isa (Jesus), the Prophet (PBUH) said to say "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen" (خاتم النبیین), not "La Nabi Ba'dah." Secondly, since both meanings, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) being the last and the best, are revealed by saying "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen," the Prophet (PBUH) said not to say "La Nabi Ba'dah" but rather "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen." AVAN ZOJENDE I OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug. 1974 Third, it is said that Hazrat Aisha herself narrated this hadith that Hazrat (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that prophethood has ended. Except now there will be good dreams. And you explained the interpretation of good dreams as good dreams, therefore it is said on behalf of the plaintiff that when Hazrat Aisha herself knew about this hadith. So how can it be said. That she forbade saying "La Nabiya Ba'dah" because she considered prophethood to continue after you. This is a very reasonable answer. Apart from this, the people whom you forbade. That they should not say "La Nabiya Ba'dah". So they must have inquired about some reason. Because it could be suspected that whether prophethood continues after you. Those who forbid doing so. No such detail is given, therefore, no argument can be made from this statement of hers that she considered the series of prophethood to continue after you. In this regard, it has been said again on behalf of the defendant. It should also be clear that in the Holy Quran, the words are "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen," not "Akhar-un-Nabiyeen." There is definitely some mystery that Allah Almighty did not say "Akhar-un-Nabiyeen" for you. Rather, he said "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen." First of all, there is nothing far-fetched in this. Because the word "Akhar-un-Nabiyeen" does not seem more eloquent in comparison to "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen." And no such word has been used in the Holy Quran. Which is not eloquent. Secondly, Since Allah Almighty intended to show both the virtues of Hazrat (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), that is, your being the last and being the best, therefore, he used the word "Khatam-un-Nabiyeen." And if Allah Almighty intended to keep any secret in it. So then what is the solution to this secret that Allah Almighty When He called the Holy Quran light, guidance, and distinction. And it also stated that your salvation lies in believing in the messengers and obeying them. And also described the details of many past prophets But did not explicitly state anything about the future prophets, nor did it say that it would be obligatory to believe in them too, then how can the Quran be light and guidance? QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION A statement from a witness for the defendant is that the hadith in which the word "last of the prophets" appears is a solitary report (Khabar Wahid) that holds the rank of "Zanni" (speculative). And in matters of faith, speculative things do not work, but alas, while saying this, he probably did not consider his method of reasoning, and to what extent he is discussing things based on definitive proofs. In this way, he has made many interpretations of the hadiths in which the words "last" are found in relation to the Prophet. And by quoting the sayings of Arabic, Persian, and Urdu poets and writers, he has shown that the word "last" is often used in the sense of "perfect," but as mentioned above, this whole discussion has no status except for academic interest because the discussion here is about beliefs and not the meaning of words. And since the words under discussion also imply the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) being the last, the Ummah's belief has continued on this meaning until today. And this belief, as shown above, is one of the important and fundamental issues of Islam. Therefore, changing this belief is not the job of any scholar, jurist, or judge, but this belief cannot be changed by anyone except the person who is appointed by Allah. There has been sufficient discussion on this before, whether Mirza Sahib is a prophet and appointed by Allah or not, and it will be discussed in the final conclusion as well. On behalf of the defendant, sayings of Sheikh Muhiuddin Ibn Arabi and other elders have been quoted to show that according to them, what is meant by the elevation of prophethood is that the prophethood with Sharia (law) has been elevated, not the status of prophethood, and that they understand the Prophet's saying "La Nabiyya Ba'di" (there is no prophet after me) to mean that there will be no prophet after him who is against his Sharia, but whenever there will be, he will be under his Sharia. Explanations of these sayings have been given by the plaintiff, and it has been shown from other sayings of these elders that they believed in the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) being the last prophet, but definitely RAVNAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 It is possible that while writing these statements, the descent of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was in the minds of these people. And that is why it may have been said that whoever comes after him will be subject to his Sharia. This can be fully determined by looking at their books. Since these references have been ignored in this decision, there is no need to comment on them further. And even if the meaning of these writings is accepted as correct according to the defendant's claim, then it needs to be seen whether this is their personal opinion or the belief of the Ummah. If the Ummah has not changed its belief after these writings, and their belief has remained the same, and there has been no difference in it, then these writings have no value other than their personal opinion. And even if these statements are considered their revelation, as Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, has said, they cannot be an argument for others in matters of religion because in religious matters, except for the word of the Prophet, nothing else is definitive. Regarding the second Hadith of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), in which he said about the prophets of the Children of Israel that when one of them died, his successor would immediately be a prophet. The defendant has said that here, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) meant immediate succession. That is, it will not happen immediately after you. And the Ummah of Muhammad will not need an immediate prophet. But firstly, this meaning of the Hadith is interpretative. Secondly, it cannot be said that there has not been a time in the period of thirteen hundred years when the need for a prophet was not felt. Moreover, the type of death that the defendant wants to prove for Mirza Sahib is not supported by this meaning because, according to him, the prophethood that Mirza Sahib received was due to the perfect following and grace of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), and it is found that during the time of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), Hazrat Umar was among such people in his gathering whose tongues the angels spoke upon. And the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also said about him that if there were to be a prophet after me, it would have been Hazrat Umar, and he also said that QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2219 If I had not been commissioned, Umar would have been. So, could anyone at that time be more deserving of prophethood than Hazrat Umar in terms of following the Holy Prophet? However, according to the aforementioned clarification of the defendant, he did not become one after the Holy Prophet because there was no need for it at that time. From this, it is known that along with receiving prophethood through following the Holy Prophet, it is also destined in the Divine will that this type of prophethood is given at the time when it is needed, and this negates the principle of the defendant that prophethood can be attained through perfect adherence and grace of the Holy Prophet. Because if that were the case, then surely Hazrat Umar (RA) would have been granted prophethood because he was not only among the perfect followers but also the special recipient of the Holy Prophet's kindness. And as it is derived from the words of the Holy Prophet, the Holy Prophet wanted him to be a prophet. But since prophethood had been severed after him, he said that Hazrat Umar cannot be a prophet. The defendant has called the hadith "If there were to be a prophet after me, it would be Umar" as weak. And then, in this context, many interpretive meanings of the word "after" have been made, perhaps because this hadith was completely contrary to the intention of the defendant. The words of the hadith are not so ambiguous that there is a need for any interpretation for its meaning. Everyone can understand from it what is meant by "after" there. Regarding the hadith of Bait-ul-Nubuwwah (House of Prophethood) presented by the plaintiff regarding the finality of prophethood, it has been said by the defendant that there are words "from before me" in it, and it appears from these words that this example is with respect to the prophets who have passed before the Holy Prophet. There is no mention in it of the coming or not coming of any future prophet, but this argument is not correct because in this hadith, prophethood has been likened to a house, and in connection with its completion, it has been said that it was incomplete before your existence. It became complete upon your arrival. If the series of future prophets were to be accepted, then the completion of this house would not be necessary. To explain that the series 2220 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug, 1974 There is no one else left. Prophethood is likened to a house. And just as the construction of a house is done with walls, similarly, the construction of prophethood has been done with prophets. And the one brick that was making the completion of this house incomplete, it was completed by the arrival of Hazrat (P.B.U.H). From this example, it has been shown that the number of prophets that was destined in the will of God, it has been completed by your arrival. And the second coming of Hazrat Isa (A.S) also shows that there is no number left in the number of prophets now. That is why one has to be brought back from the previous numbers. On this, an objection has been raised on behalf of the defendant that if the coming of Isa (A.S) is accepted, then it will have to be admitted that the construction of the house remained incomplete, but this love cannot stand because Hazrat Isa (A.S) by being included in the construction of this house earlier has already completed it. And if new prophets are still to come, then the construction of this building can never be completed. Its completion will be understood when all the prophets are finished. Therefore, it will be considered complete at that time when all the prophets The series does not end. The completion of this building by the arrival of the Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H) is proof is that after you, there is nothing left of the number of prophets. The coming of Hazrat Isa is like someone uproots some bricks from his completed house and puts them elsewhere as needed. About this it will be said that he uprooted his house, it will not be said that he did not complete the house. Because its formation had already taken place. It has been said on behalf of the defendant that the prophet-hood of Mirza Sahib is not contrary to the construction of this house Because he has received prophethood from the grace of the Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H), therefore this prophethood is the completion of this House of Prophethood. will be counted as a clue. It is obvious that if something extra is added to a complete thing, then this There will be only two possibilities from this, either that extra thing will enhance its beauty or make it ugly. will give. Now if Mirza Sahib is affixed to the House of Prophethood, then either it will add to its beauty 2221 will increase. Or they will make it ugly if it is understood that it will increase its beauty. So, from this, they will become the best of the prophets, not the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and this is according to their own is also against the creed. Now it is clear that by sticking to this metaphor of theirs, Another situation will arise. And in the completion of this house, they will remain more than necessary, so From this hadith, the authenticity of which is not denied by the defendant. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the last prophet. It is fully proven to be. Another hadith has been quoted by the plaintiff. That You said that there will be thirty liars in my Ummah. Each of them considers himself a prophet. think. Whereas there is no prophet after me, it has been said by the defendant about this. That this hadith does not prove that whoever claims prophethood after you until the Day of Judgment is definitely a liar because the Promised Messiah who is to come at the end of time was himself given the title Nabiullah by the Holy Prophet. He has been called, the determination of the second number also indicates that a true person can come. The third is this hadith. The content has been fulfilled almost five hundred years ago. Because 30 Antichrist and liars have passed away. The answer to this has been given by the defendant himself that besides this there are other hadiths that In which the number of liars is stated to be more or less 70. So it will be understood. That the Holy Prophet has mentioned 30 of No specific number has been stated, but the Holy Prophet meant to express the abundance of liars by stating such numbers, because if according to the argument of the defendant it is decided that such The correct number of liars is proven to be 27, then it will have to be admitted that the thirty liars before this Those who are mentioned to have passed away, three of them must be true, but this is not proven and The world considered the remaining three to be liars as well. And they were also included in the category of liars Secondly, the exception of the coming of the Promised Messiah was made by the Holy Prophet himself and at the same time named him Isa Ibn Maryam. He has specified it by name. Moreover, if there could be true prophets. So no reason is known It happens. That where the Holy Prophet had informed about the arrival of false prophets and their number. There it is NOVAANVAL ADSCIVADLI OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 Why was it not clarified that child prophets would come after him, and so many of them? It seems impossible that the Ummah would be saved from one delusion only to be plunged into another, and that they would not be given any criteria to distinguish between small and child prophets. Therefore, this hadith is also contrary to the argument of the plaintiff, defendant, and the claimed. Therefore, the conclusion from this entire discussion is that Hazrat (PBUH) is the last prophet, and no new prophet can come after him. After this, it has been said on behalf of the defendant that the references of liars claiming prophethood, such as Musaylimah Kazzab, etc., which have been presented by the plaintiff, and it has been said that they were killed on the basis that they claimed prophethood, is not correct because the Companions fought with these people merely because they had rebelled and wanted to become kings themselves by opposing the Islamic government, and they had made the claim of prophethood only a means to achieve it. Even if this claim of the defendant is considered correct, Since he also states at the same time that they made the claim of prophethood a means to achieve government, it can also be concluded from this that the basis on which they considered themselves entitled to the government, the Companions considered that also to be incorrect. If the Companions had in their minds that prophethood could exist after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), they would have fully ascertained their prophethood and then decided to fight them. The earthly caliphate has been an integral part of the prophethood of the esteemed prophets. And it is possible that the aforementioned claimants of prophethood, considering the earthly caliphate to be among the requirements of proof, strived for it after claiming prophethood. In that case, the Companions' fighting with them would be conceived on the basis of the claim of prophethood and not on the basis of rebellion because they were declared, understood, and considered rebels, apostates, and infidels. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION There is no need for further discussion on this matter. The defendant has further shown in his argument that Mirza Sahib established the terms Zilli and Buruzi to show that the type of prophethood he claims is not prophethood involving Sharia, nor does it necessitate the abrogation of the Holy Quran. Rather, his intention with them was only that he did not receive prophethood directly, but rather he attained this status through following the Holy Prophet (PBUH), becoming absorbed in him, and through servitude to him. Therefore, he called himself a Zilli Prophet so that people would not be startled upon hearing the word "Prophet" in the future, and they would understand from the words "Zilli Buruzi" that he is not a prophet as understood in the common parlance. Rather, every perfection he attained was through following the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and through his means. He only established the terms "Zilli Buruzi" and "Umati Prophet" to explain the reality of his prophethood, so that people would not be deceived by the word "Prophet." And establishing terms is permissible for everyone. Sufis have also established words like "Buruz," etc. Mirza Sahib did not believe in reincarnation in the sense that the Hindus understand it. From his statement that Hazrat Ibrahim (peace be upon him) took birth in the house of Abdullah, son of Abdul Muttalib, due to his nature and resemblance, it is not meant that the birth of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) was the birth of Hazrat Ibrahim himself. Indeed, he himself has explained the interpretation of "Wajood Dauriya" on page 155 of Tiryaq-ul-Qulub. And Mirza Sahib has discussed the issue of reincarnation in many of his books. Regarding the objection raised by the defendant's witness, Maulvi Najmuddin Sahib, regarding the Buruzi prophethood of the Mahdi Ma'ud, it has been said that he did not read the passage after that reference. In it, the meaning of "Khatam-ul-Aulad" has been explained to mean that after his demise, no perfect offspring will be born to the human race, except for those offspring who are present in his lifetime. Except for the terms "Zilli" and "Buruzi," all the remaining discussion pertains to subsidiary matters that do not have much impact on the matter in dispute. However, in response to this, if the defendant's argument, which is stated above... 2224 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug. 1974 has been done, if seen, then it correctly results from this that the terms Zilli, Buruzi, and Umati etc. are merely words. In fact, Mirza Sahib's claim was related to true prophethood only, as its explanation was later given in the writing of his second Khalifa, which has been referenced above. Regarding this writing of the Khalifa Sahib, the defendant, while referring to another writing of his, has said that he writes that he wrote as an example that if the true Prophet is defined as not being an artificial or imitation prophet, then according to these meanings, I consider Hazrat Masih Maud as a true prophet, meaning truthful, from Allah, and a non-legislative prophet. But this does not negate that writing of his which has been referenced by the plaintiff. That writing in itself is such that it creates its own independent meaning. In it, he has also shown readiness to prove that Mirza Sahib is not a true prophet, and then at the same time, he said that he used the words Zilli Buruzi merely as a form of humility, and that such humility is part of the dignity of prophets. These words of his have not been refuted by the defendant, nor can they be refuted. Mirza Sahib wrote in one of his announcements that God has declared me to be the very being of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Therefore, in connection with the series of manifestations of Hazrat Ibrahim (A.S.), the statements of Mirza Sahib that have been referenced in the statements of the plaintiff's witnesses and the conclusions they have drawn from them, and which have been stated above in their discussion, it is indeed inferred from them that Mirza Sahib in his statements means the kind of birth of Hazrat Ibrahim (A.S.) that is understood as reincarnation, not from the endowment of Hazrat Ibrahim (A.S.)'s nature, temperament, and other characteristics. There is no need for more discussion on these questions because these questions relate to the excommunication of Mirza Sahib himself, which is a subsidiary question in this case. Therefore, detailed discussion on such beliefs of his, on which the settlement of this case does not depend much, is unnecessary. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 6423 The following is the defendant's response to the plaintiff's objections, which are related to Mirza Sahib's claim of Prophethood with Divine Law. It has been stated on his behalf that wherever Mirza Sahib has written the word "Rasool" for himself, he has not used the word "Sharia" with it anywhere. Rather, he has clearly written that there is no book under the sky except Furqan Hameed (The Holy Quran). Regarding the claim of Prophethood, he has clearly said that he is a prophet in the sense that he has attained inner blessings from his leader and messenger (Muhammad) and, by receiving his name, he has received knowledge of the unseen from God through him. He is a Messenger and a Prophet, but without any new Divine Law. And where he has said that he has been given the title of Prophet, there are also these words: "but in such a way that from one aspect a Prophet and from another aspect a follower." Where Mirza Sahib has said that he believes in his revelation in the same way as he believes in the Quran and other revelations, this does not imply his claim to be a Prophet with Divine Law. Rather, such statements mean that he has complete faith that his revelation is from God and is pure and free from Satanic influence and error, and he is expressing this. And this does not imply that he is claiming to be the holder of Divine Law. Mirza Sahib has not said that his revelation is Divine Law and like the Quran. Mirza Sahib making his revelation the basis of salvation does not prove that he is claiming Prophethood with Divine Law, because his revelation and teachings are the same as those of the Holy Quran and Islam. However, it is definitely the case that now only the one who enters his circle of allegiance can attain salvation by adhering to the teachings of the Holy Quran, and no one else. Mirza Sahib has not said that there is any new Divine Law in his revelation or that his revelation abrogates the Sharia of Muhammad (PBUH). Rather, he said that it is a renewal of some necessary commandments of the Sharia of Muhammad (PBUH). Dozens of verses of the Holy Quran were revealed again to the saints of the Ummah of Muhammad (PBUH). Similarly, many verses of the Holy Quran were revealed to Mirza Sahib. 2226 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Orders and prohibitions were revealed, and regarding these, Mirza Sahib wrote that my revelation includes both command and prohibition. Regarding Mirza Sahib's statement number 4 above, it has been said that the saints of the Ummah have acknowledged that it is impermissible for the orders and prohibitions of the Sharia of Muhammad to be revealed to any elder as a renewal, only such orders and prohibitions that are contrary to the Sharia of Muhammad. And not being the result of following the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is prohibited. In this statement, Mirza Sahib used the word "Sharia" only as an accusation against his opponents and says, hypothetically accusing the objectors, that this excuse of the opponents is also false because Sharia is the name of commands and prohibitions, and both command and prohibition are present in my revelations. Regarding statement number 12, it has been said that the reasoning derived from it that Mirza Sahib is a prophet with a Sharia is not correct because in this place he has only stated the order to deny a prophet, a Muhaddith, and a Muhimm with a Sharia. And other prophets who did not bring new Sharia or laws, their order is not mentioned in this statement. The conclusion drawn from this by the claimant's witnesses is contrary to Mirza Sahib's other writings because elsewhere Mirza Sahib has said that my intention of prophethood is not that I stand up against the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and claim prophethood, or bring a new Sharia. My intention of prophethood is only the abundance of divine communication and dialogue, and elsewhere he writes, "The person who does not believe in me does not believe because he declares me a liar, and Allah Almighty says that the one who fabricates lies against God is the greatest infidel of all infidels. So when I have affirmed God to a denier, in that case, I am not only an infidel but a great infidel, and if I am not a liar, then undoubtedly that infidelity will fall upon him." Regarding Mirza Sahib's claim to be the possessor of Sharia, the discussion made by the claimant with reference to his order to give monthly donations, the defendant's QADIANI ISSUE The answer is that it is not a new order, nor are words like 'kafir', 'apostate' or 'cursed' used regarding the one who does not comply with it, but this order is in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Quran, because in the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty has emphasized spending in the way of Allah. Mirza Sahib, under this Quranic teaching, stated that such a person who does not spend in the way of God, and despite being capable, remains oblivious to this divine command for three months, and does not care, has no connection with the community. And the plaintiff's witnesses' statement that such an order does not exist for those who do not pay Zakat is incorrect, because Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq, regarding those who refused to pay Zakat, said, "By God, if they withhold even a simple rope with which a camel is tied, which they used to pay during the time of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), I will fight them." See how severe the punishment was for not paying even a portion of Zakat. There is no need to give more detailed answers to these arguments. If they are viewed in the light of the arguments presented by the plaintiff's witnesses, their refutation will be proven automatically. However, brief answers to them are given below. The definition of a 'Rasul' has been given by the defendant's witness himself, that he is one who possesses a book, and a 'Nabi' is general, whether he brings a book or not. Now, when Mirza Sahib calls himself a 'Rasul', it should be understood that he does not possess a book. Moreover, that revelation which is considered free from satanic interference, due to being from Allah, will be as definitive as the revelation of other prophets. Therefore, Mirza Sahib himself says that if his revelation is collected, it would form several volumes. Now, even if this kind of revelation is not brought in the form of a book, it will still be called the Book of Allah, because it contains commands and prohibitions from Allah Almighty. Such revelation of Mirza Sahib, in which there is a renewal of the commands and prohibitions of the Sharia of Muhammad, is very little. Apart from this, with regard to the definiteness of his other revelation, it will be necessary to believe in it in the same way as in the Holy Quran, and it will also be considered a part of the Sharia. Therefore, even if Mirza Sahib did not use the word 'Sharia' with the word 'Rasul', his clarifications OF FAMSTAN ANNUAL AOOLIDL I 130th Aug., 1974 It will be understood that he is the possessor of the Sharia of the Messenger, whether he says it in plain words or not. The conclusion from his other statements is the same as what has been stated above. His other statements in which he has explained his prophethood or said that he has not brought a new Sharia cannot refute those statements from which the above results are derived, because as shown at the beginning of the discussion, those statements that have an independent meaning of their own, their meanings will be understood as they are derived from their own style of expression, and unless it is clarified that those statements have been withdrawn, other statements cannot replace them or their interpretation. Whether Mirza Sahib says it or not, that his revelation is Sharia and in the form of the Quran. When he considers it free from satanic influence and declares it a proof for others, making it the basis of salvation. And considers the one who does not believe in him as a disbeliever. And according to Gwadid Ma Alaihi, it is also necessary to enter the allegiance of Mirza Sahib, then how can it be said that his revelation is not Sharia? Especially when the definition of the possessor of Sharia is also given by Mirza Sahib himself that the one who has stated a few commands and prohibitions through his revelation and has prescribed a law for his followers, he is the possessor of Sharia. And then he further says that it is not necessary that those commands and prohibitions be new. According to this definition, it can be clearly stated that those commands and prohibitions are new. According to the refutation of this definition, it can be clearly stated that he considers his revelation as Sharia revelation, and when it is Sharia revelation, then believing in it is as obligatory as believing in the Holy Quran. It is true that the verses of the Holy Quran are also revealed to other saints of Allah. But none of them has attributed them to themselves. And has not presented them as proof to others, therefore the example of other saints of Allah cannot be presented in comparison to Mirza Sahib. In statement number 4, the words "Sahib-e-Shariat" (possessor of religious law) are not used by Mirza Sahib as a hypothetical, as claimed by the defendant. Rather, the definition of "Sahib-e-Shariat" is greatly emphasized, and he displays himself as being a "Sahib-e-Shariat". Reading the text of this statement reveals whether the words "Sahib-e-Shariat" are hypothetical or genuine. This statement is further supported by statement number 12. The defendant's witness himself has acknowledged that this statement contradicts Mirza Sahib's other statements, and has attempted to resolve this contradiction with Mirza Sahib's other statements. However, this statement does not require any explanation in itself and conveys its meaning directly. In this statement, Mirza Sahib has proven himself to be a "Sahib-e-Shariat" prophet by displaying his greatness and signs. And he calls those who deny his claim infidels on this basis. This is another justification on his part, that he calls the person who does not believe in him an infidel because they consider him a fabricator. And since he is not a fabricator, the disbelief falls upon them. Mirza Sahib has ordered his community to give monthly donations, and the decree that was issued by him in this regard, and which has been referenced above, reveals that he gave this order after being informed by Allah Almighty. So, in essence, this order is not his own, but Allah Almighty's order. Indeed, the defendant's witness also admits that this is a divine order. And Mirza Sahib has called the one who does not comply with this divine order a hypocrite. Now, if Mirza Sahib has not explicitly said that he is an apostate and accursed, it does not affect the consequence of his order that he is a hypocrite. Because God Almighty has included the hypocrite among the disbelievers, even calling him a very great disbeliever. Therefore, what else can be said about the defaulter except that he is considered an apostate and accursed? Because his departure from allegiance is like apostasy. If, despite Mirza Sahib calling him a hypocrite and expelling him from allegiance, he still remains a Muslim in the eyes of the defendant's witness, then this means that he does not consider Mirza Sahib to be a prophet of God. HANISTAN August 30, 1974 Because compliance with the Prophet's order is compliance with God's command. And his displeasure seems to cause divine wrath. It seems that while giving this order, Mirza Sahib did not fully consider his status. And despite including God's power with his own, he can only punish the defaulter by expelling him from the circle of allegiance. Whereas God has made the Prophet so great that disobeying his command, let alone speaking loudly before him, risks invalidating all deeds. And non-acceptance of his commands leaves one nowhere in this world or the hereafter. In this regard, it has been correctly stated by the plaintiff that there is no such Sharia (Islamic law) ruling regarding Zakat (charity) either, which the defendant's witness has cited. That is the first caliph of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), not of God and His Messenger. The defendant's witness comparing Mirza Sahib with Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq in this regard further diminishes Mirza Sahib's status. On the one hand, he considers him a Prophet, and then presents the commands of a non-Prophet in opposition to his commands. It is incomprehensible what these people understand Mirza Sahib's status to be, despite considering him a Prophet. There is no doubt that this order of Mirza Sahib is a new order because it is an addition to Zakat. And on this basis, according to Mirza Sahib's own definition, he became a Sharia Prophet. Every order is not merely an encouragement for spending in the way of Allah, but is stated to be implemented in compliance with Allah Almighty's command, and the defendant himself has acknowledged it to be a divine command. And then, the punishment for it is not merely worldly, but the defaulter is declared a hypocrite and an apostate, making him deserving of the punishment of the hereafter. So in these circumstances, how can it be said that this is not a Sharia ruling, but merely an encouragement to spend in the way of Allah? If the orders of the prophets are interpreted in this way, then instead of the orders of God, nothing remains of them. no reality remains, and the entire series of prophethood seems like a meaningless thing. Therefore, from these writings of Mirza Sahib, which have been referenced above, it has been correctly inferred that he QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2231 They also claimed to be a prophet with a Sharia, though later, seeing that they would not succeed in this claim, they did not emphasize it much. And they started giving different interpretations of their statements from which the results of their being a prophet with Sharia were derived. After this, regarding Mirza Sahib's beliefs about Qiyamat, blowing of the trumpet, and resurrection, etc., on behalf of the defendant, it was said that the objections raised by the plaintiff's witnesses regarding these beliefs are not correct because whatever Mirza Sahib has stated regarding these beliefs is correct according to the Holy Quran and Hadith. There is no need for a more detailed discussion regarding these beliefs, it is enough to write only this much: that if Mirza Sahib is not accepted as a prophet, then his opinion regarding these beliefs will be considered a personal opinion, and it will be possible to disagree with it. And if he is accepted as a prophet, then his opinion will be considered the result of divine revelation and will be binding, and in that case, even the slightest disagreement will not be possible, but the one who disagrees will be considered a sinner. If he is not a prophet, then these beliefs of his, being against the Ummah, will be subject to investigation. And it is possible that in that case, the form of the fatwa against him may also change, but in the state of his claim to prophethood, these beliefs of his, being against the beliefs of the majority of the Ummah, may become a cause for further addition to the reasons for Takfir. Now, the answer given by the defendant to the arguments presented by the plaintiff regarding the series of insults to the prophets is given below. It is said by the defendant that Mirza Sahib has not insulted any prophet because it is not possible that a person who likens himself to those people and says that I am also a member of that holy group, then how can he insult them? Because that insult will be his own insult. 2232 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 In principle, this is correct, but it is decided by the sayings of Mirza Sahib. A detailed discussion of this is found in the statements of the plaintiff's witnesses, so there is no need to repeat it here. On behalf of the defendant, it is said that the verses of Mirza Sahib which have been declared blasphemous do not create any blasphemy. Rather, what Mirza Sahib meant by these verses is that the cup of divine knowledge and faith was given to every prophet. And God has given it to me completely. And that in my knowledge and divine wisdom and in my faith, I am not less than any prophet or apostle. And this perfection that I have attained is inherited through following the Holy Prophet (PBUH). It is a false accusation against Mirza Sahib that he has insulted the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Rather, his books are full of praise for the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Regarding the Quranic verses that Mirza Sahib is said to have applied to himself, Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, the head of the Ahl-e-Hadith group, has written that Mirza Sahib has not claimed that he is the object of revelation and addressee of these verses. Rather, he has complete certainty and clear admission that in the Quran and earlier books, the addressees and intended persons in these verses are the same prophets to whom they are addressed, and the places of these perfections are the same persons whom God has declared to be perfect in these perfections. But this answer is related to the time before Mirza Sahib claimed prophethood. It has been said on behalf of the defendant that this allegation against Mirza Sahib is also false that he claimed to be the very essence of Muhammad. Rather, he has clearly stated in his books that I am his servant, and he is my master. I am his shadow, and he is the original. I am so absorbed in your service, your discipleship, and your following that it is as if my existence is not spiritually separate from your existence. And the great religious figures have written that the prophets, peace be upon them... QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2233 Due to perfect obedience and complete adherence, they become absorbed in them. And they are so colored in their color that there is no difference between the follower and the followed, i.e., the Prophet and his follower, except for being first and last. Mirza Sahib did not say that I am the very Muhammad, but said it in a metaphorical sense. And he writes that the spirituality of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) chose for itself a person who resembled him in character, courage, compassion, and morals, and outwardly bestowed upon him his names Ahmad and Muhammad. So that it may be understood that his appearance was exactly the appearance of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). But the Sufis have expressed this state with the word "ghayth," and there is no need to write anything more on this. This argument can be seen in the light of the argument presented by the plaintiff. On behalf of the defendant, it was further said that this verse of Mirza Sahib, "The moon was eclipsed for me," does not amount to disrespect to the Holy Prophet because if the eclipse of the moon and the sun was a sign for Mirza Sahib, it was because it has been stated in the books of Hadith as one of the signs of the Mahdi. So this sign will also be attributed to the Holy Prophet (PBUH). But the plaintiff's argument is not based on the fact that Mirza Sahib has prescribed the sign of the lunar eclipse for himself. Rather, the reason for the insult from his side is that the miracle of splitting the moon by the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) has been belittled in this verse. Regarding the miracles of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH), the statements of Mirza Sahib that have been objected to by the plaintiff, the defendant has replied that Mirza Sahib has mentioned three thousand miracles of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) in another book. There, he has written about a hundred of his own prophecies. And you have mentioned ten lakh such signs of your own that if such signs were counted for the Holy Prophet (PBUH), they would be more than ten (10) billion. It has been said on behalf of the plaintiff that since a miracle is an extraordinary event, and Mirza Sahib has said about his signs that they are extraordinary of the first degree, therefore these signs should also be 2234 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 will be considered part of the offense. The arguments of both parties in this regard are on file. A conclusion can be drawn from them as to where the truth lies. I do not consider it necessary to discuss these questions further because these questions relate to Mirza Sahib's own person, and they have very little to do with the point of contention. In this way, the defendant's claim is that Mirza Sahib did not commit any insult to Hazrat Yusuf and Hazrat Adam (peace be upon them). After that, regarding the insult to Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him), it has been shown that where Mirza Sahib has expressed his superiority over Jesus (peace be upon him), he has done so because he is a follower and member of the Ummah of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And the scholars themselves have always believed that Hazrat Musa also desired to be among the Ummah of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And it has been shown through the sayings of other poets and Sufis that they too, by virtue of being followers of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), have been expressing their superiority over Jesus, but it has not been considered an insult. And in this context, some verses of Sheikh Mahmood-ul-Hasan Sahib, which he wrote in the elegy of Maulvi Rasheed Ahmed Sahib Gangohi, have been included and it has been argued that these verses do not insult the prophets. Then how can insult be derived from Mirza Sahib's poems? Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, a witness for the plaintiff, has replied that the plaintiff's poems are not factual. Rather, they are based on conjecture in human speech, and poetic expression has been acknowledged as a new kind of speech. The difference is that the word of God will be a matter of belief and truth, and it will not be based on conjecture in any way; it will be the reality, neither more nor less. Man does not reach the ultimate truth; he speaks in approximate terms. And the world has acknowledged that poetic expression is not a general application of words; rather, it consists of approximations that are close to reality, but not exactly the truth. And it is not acceptable to the world to impose what is in the poet's intention and conscience. The difference between a liar and a poet is that a liar tries to make people believe that my words are true. And the poet does not try to correct it. Rather, he understands that the audience will not understand my words as truth either. Rather, if someone understands it as the truth, then at another time, he seeks to correct it, and such events have happened a lot in the world. Exaggeration happens with poets, and it is a kind of speech that is listed in the scientific arts, and the reality of this exaggeration is to make a small thing big and a big thing small, provided that there is no belief and no convincing the creation. So, if a person says something that leads to confusion, in the matter of prophethood, and he spends all his efforts on it, then he is from another world, and Hazrat (respected) Poet is from another world. As Mirza Sahib writes on page 20 of his book "Dafa-ul-Bala" that these things are not poetic but real. Besides, it is beyond comprehension how Mirza Sahib adopted the manner of poetry. And why he did not get a share of the qualities of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as a shadow in this matter. Because about the Prophet, it has been said in Surah Yaseen of the Holy Quran that "We have not taught him poetry, nor is it befitting for him." And in Surah Ash-Shu'ara, after condemning the poets, it has been said that "And the poets - [it is] followed by the deviators." Under this command, not only those sayings of Mirza Sahib which are recorded in poems, but no saying remains valid. In response to the objection of the plaintiff that Mirza Sahib called the miracles of Hazrat (respected) المسيح (Christ) a kind of mesmerism, the defendant has given this answer that I believe in the miraculous creation of Hazrat Nabi (respected Prophet) . Yes, I do not believe in this thing that Hazrat مسیح (Christ) revived any dead person or created any bird in a real way like God Almighty. Because if reviving the dead or creating birds by Hazrat مسیح (Christ) is accepted in a real way. Then this will confuse the uniqueness of God and His revival. And regarding the action of rubbing, he writes with reference to one of his revelations that: LANDLINE Louth Aug. 1974 The act of fusion, whose true essence is unknown to the people of the present time. You did not like this act for yourself because there was no need to show such miracles in this scientific age. Regarding Hazrat Masih (Jesus), he writes that he adopted this physical act with the permission and command of God because of the physical and base ideas of the Jews, which were ingrained in their nature. Otherwise, he also did not like it. No further explanation is needed regarding this answer. The material presented by both parties in this regard has been shown above, from which the arguments of both can be compared. Regarding the insults to Jesus Christ, other statements of Mirza Sahib from his books "Rafa al-Bala" and "Supplement Anjam Atham," etc., have been presented to show that they contain a great deal of abuse. On behalf of the defendant, it has been said that the addressees in these statements are Christians, and in these statements, in accordance with the beliefs of those people, which are recorded in their books, they have been given accusatory answers, and this type of method is generally adopted in debates. And in support of this, statements of other scholars have been quoted by the defendant. If these statements of Mirza Sahib are examined in conjunction with the context and custom, then this answer of the defendant does not seem to be devoid of truth. Moreover, Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, did not mention these abusive words in his testimony regarding the insult of Jesus Christ. He says that he does not present anything of this kind in the apostasy case of Mirza Sahib in which he has to discuss intention. Rather, he has taken that thing which he has made the interpretation of the Quran. And called it the truth. And those things in which he has to search for intention, he has excluded them from his discussion and has not declared them to be the cause of apostasy. QADIANI ISSUE I have not criticized Mirza Sahib's intention but his language. And neither have I taken insinuation as a reason for apostasy, but the satire that he authenticated from the Holy Quran and considered it a commentary on the Holy Quran, and the satire that he called truth from his side, they consider it a reason for apostasy. And in this context, he has included the following statements of Mirza Sahib, but in my opinion, these actions of yours are not regrettable because you used to swear and the Jews would leave no stone unturned, and he said that this shows both insinuation and explicit insult, and that Christians write about many miracles of you, but the truth is that no miracle happened from you. This clearly implies the insult of Jesus (peace be upon him) because the words "the truth" show that these are Shah Sahib's own words of judgment. Shah Sahib's opinion is based on true recognition, and the statements from which he has drawn the conclusion of insulting Jesus (peace be upon him) do indeed imply his insult. As for the question of one prophet being superior to another, the answer has already been given above with reference to Shah Sahib's statement. The defendant has replied to the reason for excommunication stated by the plaintiff's witnesses that Mirza Sahib has nowhere written that the entire Muhammadan Ummah is polytheistic, but the passage that has been cited by the plaintiff's witnesses and from which this conclusion has been drawn, Mirza Sahib has written along with it that this statement was mistakenly issued by the former Muslims, and they are excused in the sight of God because they did not commit a practical mistake, and they have declared the belief in the life of Christ as the origin of polytheism or leading to polytheism, and calling it great polytheism is in terms of what it leads to, and this matter has been counted as metaphorical license in the right of eloquence. There is no need for much discussion in this context. It is only stated that the parties have been stopped from discussing the issue of the life of Jesus because the kind of life that all Muslims believe in is beyond human comprehension, therefore it is a reality. Aug 13th, 1974 It is also futile to prove in principle, but it is certain that according to the Holy Quran, besides this manifest life, there is another kind of life which human understanding and intellect cannot comprehend. As has been stated regarding the martyrs. That they are alive with God. And they are provided for by Him. See verse: Do not think of those who are killed... from His bounty, Para 4 - Ruku - Surah Al-Imran. It was also stated on behalf of the plaintiff that Mirza Sahib has declared all Muslims to be illegitimate by using the word "Zurriyatul Baghaya". The reply to this was given on behalf of the defendant that Zurriyatul Baghaya does not mean what the opposing party has taken it to mean. Because there is no indication for these meanings. Apparently, one of its meanings is that people who are far from guidance and are unworthy, whose hearts are sealed, will not accept it. Or that those people who consider themselves to be leaders and imams of the people. That is, the clerics who go from city to city with decrees of blasphemy. These people will not believe because Baghaya also means vanguard. Also, Baghaya refers to women in general. Whether they are immoral or not. But there is no need for much discussion on this. It can be understood from the use of this word and the style of address what is meant by this word there. Regarding Mirza Sahib calling his deniers and rejecters as infidels, the defendant has said regarding him being called an infidel by the plaintiff that Mirza Sahib calls those who do not believe in him as infidels because whoever does not believe in him declares him a liar and does not believe in him. Therefore, he himself becomes an infidel because of his excommunication. But this is not a reasonable answer. Because if a person is actually an infidel, why should he not be called an infidel? In this way, no one can be declared an infidel. Because the one who calls him an infidel will himself become an infidel. The discussion about Mirza Sahib being a true or false prophet has already been done above. Therefore, in the light of these arguments, if a person calls him an infidel, then it is not known how he himself becomes an infidel. And even if this opinion is correct, hypothetically, then QADIANI ISSUE – GENERAL DISCUSSION Then only those people should be called infidels who call Mirza Sahib a liar or an infidel, those who neither deny him nor declare him an infidel, why are they called infidels? Therefore, it is known that the reason for calling them infidels is not that they call Mirza Sahib an impostor. Rather, the reason for this is stated by Mirza Sahib himself in his book Fatawa Ahmadiyya, Volume 1, page 269, that no action of anyone can be beneficial without my claim and arguments and recognizing me. Then further on page 308 of this book, he writes that, in any case, the command of God Almighty has revealed to me that a person who has received my invitation and has not accepted me is not a Muslim and is accountable to God. It is clearly understood from these statements that a person who does not believe in Mirza Sahib, whether he calls him an infidel or not, is not a Muslim and none of his actions are acceptable in the court of Allah. The witnesses of the defendant drew the attention of the people of this state to themselves and showed that the witnesses of the plaintiff issued a decree of infidelity against Mirza Sahib and his subordinates purely based on their malice and stubbornness and because they were accustomed to following their elders. Otherwise, in fact, Mirza Sahib does not deny anything from the necessities of religion. Hazrat Khawaja Ghulam Farid Sahib (may God have mercy on him), of whom not only a part of the State of Bahawalpur is a follower and disciple, but also has numerous disciples in Sindh, Balochistan and Punjab, has shown from a book of his, Isharat Faridi, that in his opinion, Mirza Sahib does not deny any belief of Ahl-e-Sunnat wal Jamaat or any of the necessities of religion, but rather he writes about him that he spends all his time in the worship of God Almighty and is determined to support the religion. And that the scholars of the time, leaving all the false religions, have turned against this good man who is from Ahl-e-Sunnat wal Jamaat and is steadfast on the straight path. And after discussing Khawaja Sahib's writing in great detail, it has been shown that these words are Khawaja Sahib's own. And he wrote this after seeing Mirza Sahib's books. 2240 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 had formed an opinion. A detailed response has also been given by the plaintiff, stating that the books of Mirza Sahib that Khawaja Sahib had seen by that time did not contain Mirza Sahib's claim to prophethood. Consequently, a writing of Mirza Sahib, which is present on page 69 of your book "Anjam-e-Atham," reveals that Hazrat Khawaja Sahib also later became an accuser and denier of Mirza Sahib. Mirza Sahib writes in this writing that "Now we write the names of those Maulvis below, some of whom call this humble one a disbeliever and a liar, and some abstain from calling him a disbeliever, but call him a liar, a deceiver, and a Dajjal (Antichrist). In any case, all these fault-finders and deniers have been invited to Mubahala (prayer duel), and with them are those Sajjada Nashins (spiritual leaders) as well who are fault-finders and deniers." Along with this, Mirza Sahib has given lists of both groups. In this list, the name of Mian Ghulam Farid Sahib Chishti Chachran, area Bahawalpur, is also listed. Considering these arguments of both parties, the following conclusions are drawn: A group of sacred and virtuous people among Muslims is called Sufis. These Sufis, through the taste and pleasure they derive from the remembrance of God, worship, and asceticism, experience divine illuminations. And a certain state is created in their hearts that enables them to be informed of some hidden news. They call this inspiration or unveiling. And some Sufis have also described it metaphorically as revelation. These people act under the teachings of their Prophet. A Prophet is divinely appointed and is directly informed of hidden news by Allah Almighty and is commanded to convey the commands of Allah to the people, to warn them of the Day of Judgment, and to inform them of the conditions of the afterlife. And the means by which they receive this information is called revelation. And this term of revelation is specific to the Prophets only. If this word is used elsewhere, then metaphorical or literal meanings are taken from it. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2241 Prophets receive this revelation in three ways. Either Allah Almighty puts something in the heart of a prophet, or He informs through a messenger from the angels, or He Himself speaks from behind a veil. This revelation is considered definitive because it is free from satanic influence, and denying it is disbelief. The inspiration or unveiling of saints, even if it is free from satanic influence, is neither definitive nor a proof for others, but through inspiration and unveiling, the knowledge and secrets of the Holy Quran are explained. And in this connection, some great Sufis also experience the revelation of Quranic verses. They do not attribute these verses to themselves, but just as a tourist is shown high places during their travels, they are shown high spiritual ranks. It seems that when Mirza Sahib embarked on this path and the series of revelations began to occur to him, he could not control himself, and finding the words "revelation" and "prophethood" in the books of Sufis, he proposed a term of prophethood for himself in order to show his status higher than the previous saints. When people began to be startled by this word, he silenced them by saying, "Why do you worry? According to the divine command, I call the abundance of conversation and discourse that you people believe in due to following the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as prophethood. This is just a verbal dispute. So everyone has the right to set a term." It was as if he made the word "prophet" to mean an abundance of conversation and discourse in a technical sense, contrary to its original and common understanding, and this term was also established by the command of Allah Almighty. After that, it seems that when he started using this word frequently about himself, people were startled again, upon which he silenced them again by saying, "I am not an original prophet, but in the sense that I have obtained all perfections through the following and grace of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), I am a shadow and reflection prophet." And after that, he started attributing those Quranic verses to himself that were perhaps revealed to him at a good time, and gradually expressed the claim of legislative prophethood. But explicit Quranic verses 2242 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug, 1974 And when they did not see success in this from the hadiths and sayings of the elders, they abandoned this claim and sought refuge in the hadiths of the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him). And by proving the death of Jesus (peace be upon him) through revelation, they showed that the real meaning of these hadiths is that someone in the community of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) would be given the status of prophethood. Not that Jesus of Nazareth would return. This is what is taken from the statement of a witness of the defendant. And it is not known whether he gave this statement on his own or based on a writing of Mirza Sahib that there has been an interpretive mistake by the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) in the news of the descent of Jesus, son of Mary, in the hadiths. He says that some prophecies relate to the future, but the truth becomes clear at the time of their appearance. And interpretive error is possible for every prophet in understanding prophecies, i.e., in terms of the quality of verification of occurrence, even for the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). He gave an example of this by referring to a hadith of Bukhari that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) understood, based on a dream, that he would migrate to Hajar Yamama. But when he migrated to Medina, the truth of this prophecy became clear to him that it meant Medina. And that when interpretive error is possible for a prophet, the real truth of the prophecy will be revealed at the time of its fulfillment. And that the follower comes to know of the occurrence at the time of verification of the occurrence of the prophecy. In short, after going through the previous stages, Mirza Sahib started expressing his claim of being the Promised Messiah in an exaggerated manner. And he made prophethood such a conundrum again that neither could people understand it, nor could his own followers fully understand his status, as has been shown above. Rather, even God, God forbid, had to face great difficulties in making him a prophet because when God Almighty felt that, God forbid, his beloved had made an interpretive error, now, in order to honor him and to grant Mirza Sahib the status of prophethood, Allah Almighty, according to Mirza Sahib, first made all those prophecies related to Jesus (peace be upon him) in the Quran... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION They were diverted towards Mirza Sahib. And then sometimes made her Maryam and sometimes Jesus, and after that, by raining down revelations, it was made clear that Jesus, the son of Mary, had died, now you can claim to be a prophet without fear. And where previously, He used to alert the prophets through decisive revelations like "Listen to what is revealed" and "O you who are enfolded, arise and warn," and appointed them from His side, for Mirza Sahib, He had to, God forbid, resort to various tactics. From this behavior of Mirza Sahib in becoming a prophet, it becomes clear that the office of Prophethood had ended with Allah Almighty. Because first, He proposed the term Prophethood for Mirza Sahib. Then, when He was not pleased with that, He bestowed upon him the title of Prophet, just as the titles of Nawab and Raja are bestowed by the Government upon those who are not lords of the state. But when Mirza Sahib was not satisfied with this either, even though Allah Almighty had called him "O my son" and with the thought that since Allah Almighty had called the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) the Seal of the Prophets in the Holy Quran, He might not be displeased by the making of another prophet, Mirza Sahib was made his shadow. And finally, when his happiness was seen only in becoming a prophet, and it also occurred to Him that there was a promise to send حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام in the end times, so He killed him and made Mirza Sahib a prophet, I seek refuge in Allah. The witness for the plaintiff has stated that a prophet can also make an interpretive mistake, so what is the guarantee that Mirza Sahib would not have made this mistake? Especially since Mirza Sahib is also the shadow of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). It is not unlikely that the nature of the original does not affect the nature of the shadow. And besides, according to his own admission, Mirza Sahib is not found to be more intelligent than حضرت محمد مسلم. Because after years of continuous revelation from God Almighty, he came to understand that he had become a prophet. Therefore, it is possible that he misunderstood the meaning of Divine revelation and claimed prophethood. From Mirza Sahib's own clarifications, it is found that at the time of being a follower, he did not know about the occurrence related to the descent of مسیح. Rather, when he had received the title of Prophethood, it was then made clear to him that Jesus of Nazareth OF PAKISTAN AMGAWE VOLI [30th Aug., 1974 have passed away. Therefore, the defendant's witness's statement that Ummatis become aware of the investigation of an incident at the time of its occurrence is invalidated by Mirza Sahib's own clarifications. The hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) cited by the said witness, stating that it is possible for him to make an error in judgment, does not prove that he made any mistake at the time of migration. This argument would have been valid if he had gone to Hajar Yamama instead of Madinah, and then returned to Madinah. He only had a thought about going there, which did not materialize, and this dream was fulfilled completely as it was destined in the Divine will. From this example, it can be inferred that even if a prophet misunderstands something, Allah Almighty immediately rectifies it. It does not happen that the mistake continues for centuries and is not revealed to the prophet himself or to his perfect followers. Therefore, it is very audacious to say that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) made an error of judgment in stating the prophecy of the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him). It seems that Mirza Sahib, later in his life, realized the error of his claim and then established the term "prophethood," which he had started his claim with, as is evident from his letter written to the editor of Akhbar-e-Aam two or three days before his death. It is stated in it that "I am called a prophet only because in Arabic and Hebrew, the meaning of 'Nabi' is one who receives inspiration from God and makes numerous prophecies." Considering all these facts, Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, rightly stated that examining Mirza Sahib's books clearly reveals that his entire works consist of repetition and recurrence of only a few issues. The same issue and the same topic have been mentioned in dozens of books under different headings. And then, there is so much inconsistency and contradiction found in all the statements, and Mirza Sahib himself has such a disturbed mind and has deliberately adopted such a method that the result is confusion and disorder. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2245 They remain in duplicity and hypocrisy as needed. Thus, sometimes they call the belief of the finality of Prophethood a definite and unanimous belief with its famous and unanimous meaning. And sometimes, they declare the religion that teaches such a belief as cursed and satanic. Sometimes, they include the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) as a continuous part of religion in accordance with the belief of the entire Ummah of Muhammad and report that there is a consensus on it. And sometimes they portray this belief as a polytheistic belief. The belief of the finality of Prophethood, as has been stated above, is among the important and fundamental issues of Islam, and the meaning of the Seal of the Prophets that has been stated by the defendant is not supported by the verses of the Quran and authentic hadiths. Rather, its correct meaning is the same as the one stated by the claimant's witnesses. On this subject, it has been said by the defendant that there is a hadith that every verse of the Holy Quran has an apparent meaning and a hidden meaning, and that the one who changes it is not considered an infidel. The answer to this was given by Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the claimant's witness, that this hadith is not strong. And despite not being strong, its meaning is correct in my opinion. In this hadith, the word 'Batn' does not mean that everything in the heart of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) has been revealed. In general, we understand that the meaning of the Quran is what the scholars of Sharia understand from the rules of grammar and Arabic and the principles of Sharia. And there are types under it, and 'Watan' means that Allah Almighty bestows these truths upon His distinguished servants, and they remain hidden from many, but no such 'Batn' that is contrary to the apparent and rejects the principles of Sharia will be accepted and will be rejected. And sometimes it will lead to the extent of internalism and heresy. The conclusion is that we, the obedient servants, should serve the apparent to the best of our ability and entrust the 'Batn' to God. Regarding their interpretation, their answer is that if a person interprets the news of Ahad in accordance with the rules, then the one who says it will not be called an innovator. If it is not correct according to the rules, then he is mistaken. The Quranic verses are continuous, and the Quran and Hadith that have reached us from the Holy Prophet have two aspects. 2246 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 One of proof. The other of implication. The proof of the Quran is continuous, if anyone denies this continuity, then There is no way for him to prove the Quran. And similarly, whoever denies the authenticity of continuity He demolished the religion. On the other hand, there is implication, which means to guide to the meaning. This implication of the Quran is sometimes definitive and sometimes speculative. If there is a consensus of the Companions on its implication Or any other rational or نقلi argument is established that the implied meaning is this. Then that implication is also definitive. The point is that the entire Quran, from Bismillah to Al-Nas, is absolutely proven. In implication, sometimes There is speculation and sometimes certainty, but the implication also becomes definitive from the meaning of the Quran. Moreover, interpretation Can be done in commands and prohibitions, not in اخبار, as stated by the plaintiff's witness, Maulvi Najmuddin Sahib. It is inferred from this discussion that the verse Khatam-un-Nabiyeen is definitive in its implication. And its The inner meanings cannot be such that they contradict the meaning of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, meaning the last prophet of the Messenger of Allah ﷺ. And since this is a unanimous belief. Therefore, denial of the above meaning is disbelief. What the defendant It has been said from the side that the interpreter is not considered a disbeliever. And based on what issues he He has said so. They are not of this kind. Like the issue of ختم نبوت. Therefore, it is decided. That the خاتم The meanings of Al-Din that have been made by the plaintiff. And the belief expressed under this meaning Is to the extent of deviation and apostasy from that belief. And that after the Holy Prophet, the era of Prophethood and The revelation of Prophethood has ceased. Mirza Sahib cannot be a prophet according to the correct Islamic beliefs. And in One thing that supports his not being a prophet is this. That a group of his followers who are called Lahori They do not recognize him as a prophet. Therefore, according to all the opposing sects and their In the opinion of a like-minded sect, it is proven that the خاتم النبین of the Messenger of Allah ﷺ means the last prophet. This Therefore, Mirza Sahib's claim of prophethood is not correct in any case. ظلی and بروزی prophet if If it were possible to be from the perfect obedience of the Holy Prophet, then such a prophet would have come to Mirza Sahib would have come before. Furthermore, Mirza Sahib could only have attained the degree of perfection at that time if many other prophets of this kind had been born. Because the perfection of every kind requires that its other imperfect individuals exist. Therefore, the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) is also the best of the prophets because the chain of messengership and other prophets are connected in prophethood. By declaring himself the Seal of the Saints, Mirza Sahib has stated that he has ended the era of sainthood. But from this, he will only be counted as a saint. He will not be considered a prophet. If prophethood can be attained through the spiritual blessings of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then it is necessary that such prophets would have come before him, after whom he would have attained the degree of perfection. It is correct on the part of the claimant that the terms "reflectional" and "manifestational" are actually just words, otherwise, in reality, Mirza Sahib's intention with this is original prophethood, as his second caliph explained later. There is no doubt that these words have been used to create confusion. Otherwise, there is no reality in them, nor is any belief dependent on such words in the Sharia. By stating that this kind of prophethood will continue until the Day of Judgment, Mirza Sahib has laid the foundation for a sedition in Islam, and it is not impossible that some other person will claim prophethood after him. He may also obliterate his work. In this way, security will be lifted from religion, and other than it becoming a game and a mockery, its reality will not remain established as a religion. Therefore, believing the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) to be the last prophet is extremely necessary in addition to being among the correct beliefs. Mirza Sahib does not believe the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) to be the last prophet. Therefore, his denial of this fundamental issue of Islam amounts to disbelief. In addition, his other beliefs are also not found to be in accordance with the beliefs to which the Ummah has adhered to this day. He has presented the concept of God by comparing Him to a leopard, which is completely against the text of the Quran. And by stating that God also makes mistakes and is also right, and fasts and prays, he has expressed a belief that is entirely are against the Quranic texts. He has applied Quranic verses to himself, as in the case of the verse "Huwal-lazi arsala rasoolahu...", he has said that it refers to him. And secondly, by stating the inspiration in the words "Muhammad Rasul-Allah," he said that his name was kept as Muhammad in it. And similarly as a messenger, and there are many such statements that prove that he used to affix Quranic verses to himself, from which the result of insulting the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was correctly derived. In this way, some of his statements also show disrespect to Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). And what Mirza Sahib has said about the dignity of Hazrat Maryam, and which is referred to in the statement of Sheikh-ul-Jamia Sahib, the witness of the plaintiff, and to which no reply has been given by the defendant, denies the explicit verses of the Holy Quran. All these things are such that no conclusion can be drawn from them except to declare Mirza Sahib an infidel. On behalf of the defendant, references have been made to some books of Mirza Sahib, and it has been said that Mirza Sahib has not insulted any prophet. The answer to this has been well given by Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the witness of the plaintiff. He says that when words of insult have been proven in one place, then even if words of praise have been written in a thousand places and eulogies have been sung, they cannot save him from infidelity. As the rules recognized by the whole world and the religion bear witness to this. That if a person follows and obeys someone all his life and praises and eulogizes him, but sometimes insults him in the harshest way, no one can call him truly obedient and faithful. On behalf of the defendant, some such sayings of other Sufis, which are similar to some sayings of Mirza Sahib, have been quoted and it has been said that based on these sayings, why are those elders considered Muslims? The answer to this is recorded in the words of Syed Anwar Shah Sahib, the witness of the plaintiff. He says that we have accepted the saints of Allah with heartfelt acceptance after hearing the news of their purity, piety, and sanctity, and gaining support from their evidence, deeds, actions, and morals, and from the indications and signs that From an external source, meaning not to prove their authority through these very excesses, but rather that their authority is established from an external source, which is the method of proof. After we have acknowledged someone's authority, and we were correct in this acknowledgment, then if any conflicting or misleading words come before us, we try to interpret them and find a context for them, and to see what their place is. To present excesses first and build a gathering of authority upon them is the work of the foolish and ignorant. If a person's righteousness has been proven through separate experiences and the method by which righteousness is proven, then if any misleading or confusing words of his come to light, discerning minds will clarify them and find a meaning for them. It is not the work of the wise to present those confusing words before someone's righteousness has been established, and to compare them to established sayings, and to say that so-and-so did this, so-and-so did that. The short answer to this will be that if we know so-and-so's righteousness separately through some method and evidence, then we will be in need of interpretation. And if these very words are under discussion and there is no previous good to be found, then we will throw that meager capital back in his face. It has also been said on behalf of the defendant that scholars have said that it is not permissible to declare those who face the Qibla as non-believers, and that it is not correct to call someone who says "La ilaha illallah Muhammad Rasulullah" a non-believer, etc. Shah Sahib, the plaintiff's witness, has himself given the answer to these doubts, which is recorded in his own words. He says that the statement that it is not permissible to declare those who face the Qibla as non-believers is based on ignorance and unawareness because, according to the clarification and consensus of scholars, the meaning of "people of the Qibla" is not merely someone who faces the Qibla, even if he denies all the beliefs of Islam. In the Holy Quran, the hypocrites have been declared more non-believing than ordinary non-believers, even though they not only faced the Qibla but also performed all the outward rituals of Islam. By "people of the Qibla" is meant those who agree On the necessities of religion. And regarding the issue that those who face the Qibla are not infidels, the meaning of this is that one will not be considered an infidel until a sign of infidelity, symbols of infidelity, or something that necessitates infidelity is found. Another doubt is that it is said that these people adhere to all the pillars of Islam, such as prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, and charity, and strive to propagate Islam. So how can they be called infidels? In response to this, they cited a Hadith and stated that this Hadith explicitly mentions a group about whom the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said would completely depart from the religion of Islam, and there is great reward in killing them. These people will be devoted to prayer and fasting; in fact, their outward humility and submissiveness will be such that Muslims will consider their own fasting insignificant in comparison to their prayers and fasting. However, despite this, when they are proven to deny some of the necessities of religion, their prayer, fasting, etc., will not absolve them from the judgment of disbelief. A third doubt is that it is said that jurists have called a person a Muslim even if there are 99 reasons for disbelief in their speech and only one reason for Islam. The answer to this is that the basis for this is also that some words of the jurists have been seen, and no effort has been made to understand their meaning. And their statements have been seen in which it has been explicitly stated that this ruling is not general, but only applies when only one statement of the speaker comes before the Mufti, and no other condition of the speaker is known, nor is there any such clarification in their speech that specifies the meaning of disbelief. In such a situation, it is the duty of the Mufti to exercise caution in the matter of declaring someone an infidel. And if even the slightest possibility can be found on the basis of which this statement can be saved from being a word of disbelief, then that possibility should be adopted, and that person should not be called an infidel. But if a person's same word of disbelief exists in hundreds of their writings with clear titles and words, seeing which one becomes certain that they intend the meaning of disbelief, or they themselves clarify the meaning of disbelief in their speech, then according to the consensus of the jurists, they are by no means a Muslim. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2251 can say, but absolutely, a decree of disbelief will be applied to such a person. The fourth doubt is that if a word of disbelief is said with some interpretation, then there is no ruling of disbelief. The answer to this is also a pillar of ignorance of the explicit statements of the jurists. The statements of the jurists and theologians are present that interpretation prevents excommunication in that statement and that thing which is not among the necessities of religion. But if one interprets in the necessities of religion and coins a new meaning against the consensus belief, then without a doubt he will be called a disbeliever. The Holy Quran has called it heresy and the Hadith has called it heresy. A heretic is one who changes religious literature, that is, changes the reality of words. As has been shown above, Mirza Sahib has changed the facts of many Islamic beliefs, even though he keeps their words the same. Therefore, according to the above statements, he will have to be declared a grave, and one who follows him under these beliefs will also be considered a disbeliever in the same way. One objection has also been raised by the defendant against the plaintiffs' witnesses that they belong to Deobandi beliefs and a fatwa of disbelief has been issued against the scholars of Deoband. Therefore, how can a person who is himself an infidel issue a fatwa of disbelief against another? One answer to this has been given by the plaintiffs that all its witnesses are not Deobandi gentlemen. For example, Sheikh-ul-Jamia Sahib Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Sahib and Maulvi Najmuddin Sahib. Secondly, the fatwa of disbelief against the Deobandis was given on the basis of a general rumor, which has since been withdrawn. Even if this is not correct, the defendant's argument is not correct on this basis, because their opinion has not been accepted as a fatwa. Rather, their arguments have been criticized in comparison to the arguments presented by the defendant and an opinion has been formed. Therefore, no matter which sect they belong to, no action has been taken on their personal opinion. Rather, it has been seen what is in the light of the Holy Quran and Hadith. 2252 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug. 1974 Whose arguments are correct and whose are wrong. Therefore, even if there is a fatwa of Takfir against them, it cannot affect this matter. In addition, it has been said on behalf of the defendants that the Madras High Court had stated in its decision that the question of whether apostasy occurs from Qadiani beliefs or not can be better decided by Islamic scholars. Therefore, for the investigation of Islamic scholars, it is necessary to see whether the people who have testified in this case and have issued a fatwa of Kufr are themselves Muslims or not. And in this way, it is also necessary for the decision-maker to be proven a Muslim. The answer to this is that both parties claim to belong to the religion of Islam, but they both differ on some important and fundamental issues. And they call each other Kafirs. Therefore, in this regard, according to the general worldly principle, the opinion of the sect with the majority will always prevail. This majority is found in the plaintiff, so the plaintiff's opinion will prevail. And he will be considered a Muslim and the minority a Kafir. Therefore, under this resolution, there is no need to prove any witness of the plaintiff to be a Muslim externally, and the decision-maker will also be considered a Muslim in this regard. In addition, when the defendant has accepted the decision of the Madras High Court as legally correct in his argument and has accepted it as an argument against himself. So, no reason is known why the decision of this court should not be an argument against him in Sharia. The defendant has also made several personal attacks on the witnesses of the plaintiff, for example, they have been called scholars of evil. And it has been said that the Messenger of Allah himself gave the title of monkey and pig to such Maulvis who are addressed in Dhurriyat al-Baghaya. And others are more evil in their training and are the worst creatures under the sky, but every wise man can easily guess from observing the difficulty who is the true embodiment of these hadiths among the scholars of the two parties. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Regarding Mirza Sahib's claim of prophethood, there is a need for a brief discussion on another issue. That is, Mirza Sahib also writes himself as a prophet because he also claims to be the Promised Messiah. And since the Promised Messiah has been called Nabi Allah in the hadiths, therefore Mirza Sahib is Nabi Allah. Regarding this, as shown above, the belief of Muslims is that the Promised Messiah is Hazrat Isa Ibn Maryam himself. And he will descend from the sky in the last era, and since he is already Nabi Allah, he will still be Nabi Allah. But he will act on the Sharia of Muhammad. He will not follow his own Sharia. An example of this has been given by the claimant that if a governor of another region goes to the region of another governor, then according to his position, he will be considered a governor there. But in the region of the other governor, he will remain subordinate to the government of that governor. He will not be able to follow the laws or constitution of his region. Therefore, since the Messenger of Allah ﷺ has been sent for the people till the Day of Judgment, only his Sharia will remain in force till the Day of Judgment. And Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will act under this Sharia. This example clarifies that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) is an Ummah prophet, but nowadays educated people find the belief of the descent of Christ very strange. And their minds do not accept this thing. How can a person return to the world after thousands of years? There is no doubt that in the light of modern sciences, this issue seems very objectionable. And as Maulana Mahmood Ali Sahib writes in his book Deen-o-Aain. In order to deal with such objections, the respondents generally adopt this method that the evils that are present on the face of the existing problems are seen only as evils and there is no way out. And with whatever phrase the drum of philosophy and science is played, they do not dare to keep their senses in front of it and see the only way of their acquittal like a criminal. Instead of bravely proving his actions right, he joins hands and commits them. 2254 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 Refuse. And in support of religion, they simply try to get away by saying that the issue being objected to is not included in Islamic principles. Maulana further writes that such objections, such answers are now in fashion. And those who answer seem to believe that modern civilization has ruled something to be ugly. There is no beauty left in it. If they could, they would from the Quran and Hadith. They find a way to get rid of it in any way possible. They consider their personal thoughts as Islam and such Islam as free from all objections. The issue of the descent of Jesus is also of this kind on which such objections are made, but whoever believes in the Quran. He cannot hesitate to believe in it because the Quran There is an incident of a person being resurrected after a hundred years in the Holy Book. Similarly, the Companions of the Cave stayed in the cave in a state of sleep for more than three hundred years. Therefore, if those matters were not among the impossibilities for the Being, Then sending Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) back to the world is no difficulty for Him. Just as the birth of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) took place in an unusual manner. In the same way, his Descent can also be imagined to happen in an extraordinary way. As for the The question of the truth of the prediction, there can be no doubt about its correctness, if this prediction were not correct, then Mirza Sahib had denied many other Mutawatirats. He would have denied it as well. But even he could not deny its authenticity and whatever possible interpretation could be made of it. He described it. He did not hesitate to do so. But from the above discussion it is found that according to the Quran and Hadith That interpretation did not prove to be correct. And except for maintaining this belief that according to this According to the prediction, Hazrat Isa Ibn Maryam himself will return to the world. There is no other solution to it. Cannot be because after him, there can be no new prophet, therefore QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2255 If the belief is maintained, then those who are alive at the time of the descent of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will themselves verify this prophecy. And those who die before that, God Almighty will deal with them in the same way as He has been dealing with those who have died on this belief before. However, the one who abandons this belief will surely be a sinner, because he will be considered a denier of the command of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). As for the question of whether the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) actually said this or not, because skeptical minds may say that since the compilation of hadiths took place after a long time, how can it be said with complete certainty that the narrators remembered the exact words of the hadiths, or that the intention of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) was the same as those narrators understood? The answer to this can be given better by the scholars. In my opinion, the rough answer to this is that if this hadith is true and we abandon this belief, then we will be accountable on the Day of Judgment, and if this hadith is not even correct, then what harm does it do to us to merely hold a belief on it, which is not found to be in any way contradictory to the Quran? Therefore, in any case, it is necessary for us to hold this belief. An attempt has been made by the defendant to create this confusion that if the descent of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) is accepted, then it will be understood from this that no person from the ummah of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) was worthy of being appointed to reform the people, and this would entail the humiliation of the ummah. One answer to this is that the appointment of a person by God Almighty is not based on any merit of his. Secondly, it is known from the hadiths that the condition of the ummah at that time will be very bad, so it is possible that until that time no one will be found capable of fulfilling this duty, so it is necessary to bring back one of the former prophets to reform the creation. 2256 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 it has been understood. These things are related to the Divine will. Therefore, no opinion can be expressed on them. Doubts arise in our hearts because we are not fully committed to the guidance of the Quran. If we act on all divine commandments, the results of this state will silence the objectors, and as Maulana Mahmood Ali Sahib has written in another article, as long as Muslims acted upon "Indeed, in the Messenger of Allah you have an excellent example," they faced no difficulty themselves, nor did they face any difficulty in influencing others. And when a nation is colored in the same hue, such a scene blows away doubts like dust and leaves no room for objection. But alas, as Maulana writes in his aforementioned book, the greatest need, indeed the sole purpose of life nowadays, has become to devote all attention in every hour and every second of human life to providing material goods, using them, and enjoying their results. And to have no thought of anything after the present life, nor any intention of action and acquisition for it, nor even the slightest idea of relating to a being beyond this world, and to consider this world and the brief life here as the focus of all efforts is the correct principle. Why has this situation arisen? The answer to this can also be given from a writing by Maulana Mahmood Ali Sahib. He writes that those who present the Quran do not practice what they preach, and in sermons and exhortations, they prefer human styles of speech over Quranic eloquence, resorting to logical subtleties and poetic exaggerations, and they desire more to display their own excellence and perfection than to provide guidance. Whereas neither debate nor argumentation is obligatory on the people of faith, nor is there a need for logical subtleties and philosophical battles. The same light of guidance that the word of God has presented, in the style that the true guide has adopted, is accessible to every learned and ignorant person. QADIANI ISSUE – GENERAL DISCUSSION It is necessary to deliver it. It is not possible for everyone to find guidance and for all creatures to choose one path, otherwise, the divine word still has the same attraction, and the Holy Quran still has the same effect of attracting hearts, awakening the heedless from the sleep of negligence, and quenching the thirst of guidance with the wine of knowledge. If there is, it is only the Holy Quran. And every single word of this blessed word shows such an effect in mesmerizing the seeing eye and drawing the wise heart that it is like beauty on a mirror and amber on straw. The defendant has emphasized a lot on the point that blind imitation of scholars and imams is not correct. It is correct that every person should ponder over the Holy Quran himself, but this does not mean that all the rules and other requirements that are necessary for extracting meaning should be put aside and one should start acting according to one's own understanding, as is evident from the conduct of the defendant's own witnesses. One interprets the verse "Wa bil akhirate hum yuqenoon" to mean that they also believe in the Day of Judgment, and the other explains the meaning of "akhirat" as the revelation of the last era. Ahmadi gentlemen should also think for themselves what kind of joke they have made of religion. After this discussion, in order to resolve the actual disputed matter, it is explained what the basic principles of Islam are, disagreement with which leads to apostasy, or which Islamic beliefs, if not followed, can make a person an apostate, and whether apostasy occurs due to Qadiani beliefs or not. From all the above discussion, it has been proven that the issue of the finality of prophethood is one of the fundamental principles of Islam, and that not believing in the Messenger of Allah ﷺ as the Seal of the Prophets, meaning that he is the last prophet, leads to apostasy, and that according to Islamic beliefs, a person can also be expelled from the circle of Islam by uttering a word of disbelief. The defendant, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, considers himself a prophet according to Qadiani beliefs, and according to his teachings, he believes that the series of prophethood will continue in the Ummah of Muhammad until the Day of Judgment, meaning that he 2258 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 does not recognize the Messenger of Allah ﷺ as the Seal of the Prophets, meaning the last prophet. The details of the problems that arise from recognizing another person as a new prophet after the Holy Prophet ﷺ have been explained above. Therefore, the defendant should be considered an apostate due to deviating from this unanimous belief of the Ummah. And even if the meaning of apostasy is taken to mean deviation from the principles of a religion, the defendant, by believing in Mirza Sahib as a prophet, will be considered a follower of a new religion. Because in this case, the interpretation and practice of the Quran for him will be the revelation of Mirza Sahib, not the hadiths and sayings of the jurists on which the religion of Islam has been based until now. And some of which, even Mirza Sahib himself has acknowledged as authentic. In addition, there are some rulings in the Ahmadi religion that are additional to the Sharia of Muhammad, and some are contrary to it, such as the giving of monthly donations as shown above. Zakat is an additional item in this way not offering the funeral prayer of a non-Ahmadi, not giving an Ahmadi girl in marriage to a non-Ahmadi. Not praying behind a non-Ahmadi are actions contrary to the Sharia of Muhammad. Explanations of these matters have been given on behalf of the defendant. Why they do not offer the funeral prayer of a non-Ahmadi, why they do not give their daughters in marriage to them, and why they do not pray behind them. But these explanations are not useful because these matters are mentioned in the orders of their leaders. Therefore, from their point of view, they will be considered a part of the Sharia. Which in no way can be considered in accordance with the Sharia of Muhammad. Along with this, when it is seen that they consider all non-Ahmadis to be infidels. So there is no doubt in declaring their religion as a separate religion from the religion of Islam. In addition, the defendant's witness, Maulvi Jalaluddin Shams, in his statement, has said about Muslimeh etc. false claimants of prophethood that it is found that in the opinion of the said witness, the false claim of prophethood is apostasy. And whoever accepts a false claimant of prophethood is considered an apostate. It has been proved by the defendant that Mirza Sahib is a false claimant of prophethood. Therefore, the defendant will also be declared an apostate for accepting Mirza Sahib as a prophet. Therefore, the initial investigations which QADIANI'S IMPUISSANCE Was framed on November 24, 1926, by the court of Munsif Ahmedpur East, was proven in favor of the plaintiff. It is hereby declared that the defendant has become an apostate due to adopting Qadiani beliefs. Therefore, the plaintiff's marriage with him has been dissolved from the date of the defendant's apostasy. And even if the defendant's beliefs are viewed in light of the aforementioned discussion, the plaintiff has succeeded in proving, according to the defendant's claim, that no "Ummat" prophet can come after the Messenger of Allah. And that, besides these, the other beliefs that the defendant has attributed to himself, though in accordance with general Islamic beliefs, he will be understood to be acting upon them in the same meanings that Mirza Sahib has stated. And since these meanings are contrary to the meanings that the majority of the "Ummah" has taken until today, therefore, he cannot be considered a Muslim. And in both cases, he is an apostate. And since the marriage of an apostate is dissolved by apostasy, therefore, a decree is issued in favor of the plaintiff to the effect that she has not been his wife since the date of the defendant's apostasy. The plaintiff will also be entitled to recover the costs of the case from the defendant. In this regard, a question has been raised by the defendant that since both parties consider the Holy Quran to be the Book of Allah, and marriage with the People of the Book is permissible, therefore, the plaintiff's marriage should not be declared annulled. In this regard, it has been said on behalf of the plaintiff that when both parties consider each other apostates, then according to their respective beliefs, their mutual marriage does not remain valid. Moreover, it is permissible to marry women from the People of the Book, not men. According to the plaintiff's claim, since the defendant has become an apostate, therefore, even in his capacity as a person of the Book, the plaintiff's marriage with him cannot remain valid. This argument of the plaintiff is found to be weighty. Therefore, on this basis also, she is entitled to a decree. The defendant had also referred to several legal precedents in his favor. Among them, the judgments of the Patna and Punjab High Courts were not considered by the High Court Chief Court to be applicable to the facts of the case. And the decision of the Madras High Court was not deemed worthy of following by the Court Mualla Special Session. The remaining decision of the High Court Chief Court Bahawalpur in the case of Ms. Ahdoori vs. August 30th, 1974 FARISIAN Karim Buksh, the matter is that this decision was issued by Mr. Mehta and himself, the Judge of the Chief Court, from Ujala. And the aforementioned Sahib made the decision relying on the decision of the Madras High Court. And he did not adjudicate on the disputed issues that were recorded in the said decision. Because the case had been pending for a long time, the aforementioned Sahib did not like to keep it pending for a longer time and decided it with reference to the said decision. Since the exalted court has not declared this decision as binding, the decision on which that decision was based is also not binding. From the parties, the plaintiff's attorney is present. The order was read out to him. The defendant died after the proceedings of this case were completed while the case was under consideration. Against him, this order will be considered under Order 22, Rule 6 of the Code of Civil Procedure. The decree slip should be prepared and the file should be put on record. February 7, 1935, corresponding to 3rd Ziqada 1353 At Bahawalpur (Signed) Muhammad Akbar, District Judge District Bahawalnagar State of Bahawalpur (In English letters) Written by Maqbool Ahmed Dharija Khan Puri February 13, 1973, corresponding to 9th Muharram al-Haram 1393 AH At Mohalla Mubarak Pura, Street No. 4, Bahawalpur. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2261 Say, "Truth has come, and falsehood has vanished. Indeed, falsehood is ever vanishing." Sheikh Muhammad Akbar, District Judge, Campbellpur, at Rawalpindi Verdict Mirzais Are outside the circle of Islam Publisher Central Office, Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat, Multan, Pakistan Phone Number. 3341 220X NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Publication Series No. 18 First Edition 1388 AH 1968 AD Typesetting Markazi Maktaba Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat Multan Publisher Al-Riaz Muhammad Irshad Khushnavees Shama Market Printing Hussainia Printing Press Multan City Pages Fifty-two pages (52) Quantity Five thousand (5000) Price Fifty paisas (0.50) Address for Contact Markazi Maktaba Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat, Multan City Taluka Road, Outside Lohari Gate Phone Number 3341 QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Introduction In February 1953, during the Movement for the Protection of the Finality of Prophethood, when the government of the time suddenly arrested and imprisoned the leaders of the Action Committee, the arrest of the nation's leaders and the government's harsh decision ignited public sentiment, causing the situation to spiral out of control. As a last resort, the government imposed martial law in Lahore. When the situation calmed down in July, the new ministry established by Malik Feroz Khan Noon appointed a commission to investigate these emergency circumstances, consisting of Mr. Justice Muhammad Munir and Justice A.R. Kayani (late). The Council for the Protection of the Finality of Prophethood was involved in pursuing this case, and in February 1953, the case entered its final stages. At that time, the party's defense office was managed by the late Hakeem Abdul Majeed Saifi, a B.A. from Aligarh, originally from Shahpur, Sargodha district. His residence was located on Beadon Road. On February 18th, an elder suddenly arrived from Rawalpindi and immediately asked for Maulana Muhammad Ali Jalandhari (may his blessings continue). He was introduced to Hazrat Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib. He was likely Lieutenant Naziruddin, the defendant in the case, or another relative. He mentioned the nature of the case, stating: A Qadiani woman, having obtained assistance from her center in Rabwah, has filed a claim for dower, etc., against my brother. We request that you pursue this case on our behalf. Hazrat Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib promised that they would send Munazir-e-Islam (Debater of Islam) Maulana Lal Hussain Akhtar to pursue the case. Consequently, the case remained under hearing for a year and a half, during which... 2264 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug. 1974 Maulana (Respected Scholar) continued to defend the people of Islam and appeared in Rawalpindi as a defense witness for the accused. The result of which (from the lower court to the sessions court) was in favor of the people of Islam. May Allah Almighty reward both judge gentlemen for their religious and legal insight. Our prayer is that God Almighty keeps such well-informed, religiously conscious judges and officers in their positions so that disbelief and apostasy in the Islamic country become distinct from Islam, and Muslims are saved from the insidious deceit of the Qadianis. Remember, this was the first case of its kind in Pakistan because this decision was not only against one woman but was also to put a seal of confirmation on the disbelief of the entire Qadiani community. As a result of this decision, a commotion arose in the Qadiani camp, due to which the leaders and lawyers of the entire community considered filing an appeal in the High Court. According to our information, the appeal was prepared, and a lawyer was appointed. But when Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan was consulted, he said, "File the appeal at your own risk; I take no responsibility." Therefore, from June 3, 1955, until today, the Qadiani community has remained silent, confirming their disbelief. Previously, this decision was published in English in a quantity of forty thousand by Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nubuwwat (Council for the Protection of the Finality of Prophethood). Then, Dr. Abdul Qadir Sahib published it in large numbers from Gujrat. Then, Karachi Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nubuwwat published five thousand copies and distributed them free of charge at home and abroad. Due to the translation from English to Urdu, some references and passages had become confusing. Therefore, like the English decision, Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nubuwwat is now presenting it to the Muslims from its central library with great care, printing a corrigendum. So that the enlightened and educated class can reassure their hearts with the decisions of the judges and save themselves from the web of disbelief and apostasy of this rebellious group of the nation. Director of Publications Department Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nubuwwat, Multan. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2233 After that Sheikh Muhammad Akbar, Additional District Judge Rawalpindi Civil 1955 Ummat-ul-Karim, daughter of Karam Elahi Rajput Janjua, House No. 500/B, Naya Muhalla Trunk Bazar Versus Lieutenant Nazir-ud-Din Malik, son of Master Muhammad Din Awan, Muhalla Krishanpura, Rawalpindi Detailed Verdict Mussamat Ummat-ul-Karim, daughter of Karam Elahi (according to Mian Ataullah, Advocate for the Appellant, is a blacksmith's daughter) was married to Nazir-ud-Din Matriculate (according to Mian Ataullah, a carpenter) on September 25, 1949, and two thousand rupees were fixed as dower. It was stated that the Nikah was solemnized by a Hanafi Maulvi. According to Khawaja Ahmad Iqbal, Advocate for the Appellant, Mr. Nazir-ud-Din, despite being a carpenter and matriculate, was very fortunate to get a commission in the Pakistan Army. He thought that later on, he would have social interactions with high-ranking officers, and keeping a blacksmith's daughter as a wife in his house would be a matter of humiliation and he would not be considered social in the eyes of the officers. Therefore, on July 4, 1951, he formally divorced his wife, Ummat-ul-Karim, and wrote a divorce deed. Mussamat Ummat-ul-Karim filed a suit against her ex-husband, Lieutenant Nazir-ud-Din Malik, to recover the dower amount of two thousand rupees, and also demanded Rs 2403 for the dowry that her father had given her at the time of marriage and which was with her ex-husband. This was a pauper case. 2266 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Marriage was void. Mismat Ummat-ul-Karim had made several accusations against Lieutenant Nazir-ud-Din Malik. He denied these accusations. Regarding the dowry, he said that it was not with him. The appellant stated that the price she quoted was incorrect. Regarding the claim of Haq Mehr, it was stated that the marriage was legally void because it was done by deception, as the plaintiff was presented as belonging to the Hanafi sect, whereas she is a follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, and even if this deception is not proved, this marriage is void because it took place between a Muslim and a non-Muslim. For this reason, it was said that the plaintiff could not claim any dower. It is an accepted fact that after the marriage, the parties maintained a husband and wife relationship. A child, about five years old, is a manifestation of this relationship and marital fulfillment. Is marriage to an Ahmadi woman possible? Ummat-ul-Karim has clearly denied the alleged proximity. And in the trial court, she had confessed that she is a Shafi'i Muslim. Her father, Karam Elahi, also confessed in court that he is a Hanafi Muslim. In this regard, it was also said that the marriage of a Muslim to an Ahmadi woman is absolutely void. It can be more than corrupt. A void marriage has no existence in the eyes of the law. But there are such instances of corrupt marriage. In which the husband has to pay the fixed or appropriate dower (dowry) in case of fulfillment of marital duties. Lieutenant Nazir-ud-Din also said that the plaintiff had relinquished the dowry. A few objections were raised in this regard. Based on these statements of the parties, the Honorable Judge of the Trial Court formulated the following audits: QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION Did the marriage between the plaintiff and the defendant take place through deception and fraud? Therefore, the defendant is not obligated to pay the dower to the plaintiff. (A) If the alleged fraud is not proven, is the marriage between the parties void, and what effect does this have on the claim for dower? Did the plaintiff waive the claim for dower? Is any dowry property in the possession of the defendant, and what is its value? 2. If so, to what extent is the plaintiff entitled to relief in this regard? Decision of the Subordinate Court After the hearing, Mian Muhammad Saleem, Senior Civil Judge, Rawalpindi, announced the decision of this case on 25-3-55. In this decision, in addition to other matters, the following resolutions were concluded: The marriage between the parties did not take place through any deception or fraud. The plaintiff did not waive the claim for dower. The dowry property worth Rs. 2403, which belonged to the plaintiff, is in the possession of the defendant. Mian Ataullah Advocate and Khawaja Ahmed Iqbal Advocate appeared on behalf of Ms. Ummat-ul-Karim, and Mr. Zafar Mahmood appeared on behalf of Lieutenant Nazir-ud-Din Malik. None of these lawyers said a single word against the correctness of the aforementioned results in my court. Other resolutions of the trial court's decision are as follows: 1. Qadianis cannot be considered People of the Book. Ms. Ummat-ul-Karim is a Qadiani Ahmadi, so when she married the defendant, she was a non-Muslim. The marriage of the parties is absolutely void. The fulfillment of marital duties cannot legally justify it. (Therefore) the debt of dower is not legally recoverable. 2208 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 Based on the aforementioned results, Mian Muhammad Saleem awarded Ms. Ummat-ul-Karim a decree to recover Rs. 2403 worth of dowry goods from her ex-husband, but dismissed Mir's case. Two (2) appeals were filed against the aforementioned decision and decree. Ms. Ummat-ul-Karim filed an appeal for two thousand rupees Mehr. Secondly, he also filed an appeal to get rid of the decree to pay the value of dowry goods that the court had issued against Lieutenant Nazir-ud-Din. The evidence and especially the letters of Ms. Ummat-ul-Karim show that she was a Qadiani at the time of marriage. I uphold and restore the decision of the trial court. Initially, as a preamble, the appellant's counsel, Mian Ataullah, raised the following questions: There is no consensus among Muslims on the fact that the Prophet of Islam, Hazrat Muhammad, is the last prophet of God. And that no prophet will be sent after him. There is also no consensus among Muslims on the fact that a person who does not believe that Hazrat Muhammad is the last prophet of God is not a Muslim. . There is also no consensus of Muslims that Qadiani Ahmadis are non-Muslims. Under question number (a), the learned judge of the trial court has ruled that it is a basic belief of Muslims that our Prophet of Islam, Hazrat Muhammad, is the last prophet of God and that no new prophet can come after him. The basis of this belief is the words Khatam-un-Nabiyeen that God Almighty has used in the Holy Quran about the Prophet of Islam. But Qadianis read it as Khatam-al-Nabiyeen and interpret it as the one who seals the prophethood. According to this interpretation, they believe that God can send countless prophets even after our Prophet of Islam. They will have the seal of the Holy Prophet. And according to them, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is also such a prophet who does not have any code different from the Holy Quran from God. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2269 brought. Who were first sent with more messages from God to explain the code. According to them, this type of prophet is a Milli or non-legislative prophet, meaning different from a legislative prophet, that is, different from the prophet upon whom revelation descended directly from God. Claiming to be superior to Jesus The trial court presented an excerpt from a booklet by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in which he explained his claim: Similarly, in the beginning, I also believed, "What comparison do I have to the Messiah, son of Mary? He is a prophet and among God's great close ones, and if anything appeared regarding my superiority, I considered it a partial superiority." But later, the revelation that descended upon me from God like a heavy rain did not allow me to remain steadfast on this belief. And I was explicitly given the title of Prophet. All Muslims are infidels (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, pp. 149-150) And to clarify what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's followers think about his claim, it was also deemed necessary to reveal the following words of the second Caliph of the Qadianis, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad: "It is our duty not to consider non-Ahmadis as Muslims and not to offer prayers behind them because, according to us, they are deniers of a prophet of God." (Anwar Khilafat, p. 90) The court hearing the case also stated that the Qadianis' belief about prophethood is fundamentally different from that of the rest of the Muslims. The learned counsel for the plaintiff, AIR 1923 2270 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Madras was presented in the court in which it was expressed that Qadianis are only a sect within Muslims, but this opinion was based on the fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had claimed prophethood for such a short time that it was not possible to say that the overwhelming majority of common Muslims was against considering Qadianis as Muslims. The subordinate court has said that it can be said without fear of contradiction that scholars of almost every sect of Muslims, except Ahmadis, have at one time or another declared that Qadianis are not a sect of Muslims but are non-Muslims. According to the court's opinion, this is also proved by a booklet named "Faskh Nikah Mirzaiyan" which was published in 1935 by Daftar Al-Hadith Amritsar and which contains the fatwas of scholars from different sects of Islam. Another learned judge's decision The matter becomes even clearer from the famous decision made by the learned District Judge of Bahawalpur in 1935 in the case of Musammat Aisha v. Abdul Razzaq. This decision was published in the form of a book. In it, based on the fatwas and arguments of numerous scholars presented by both parties, the differences between the religions of Muslims and Qadianis were discussed in detail. The court also deemed it appropriate to consider that during the recent nationwide movement against Qadianis, a conference of Muslim scholars of every opinion except Ahmadis was held, which unanimously declared that Qadianis are not Muslims in the accepted sense but followers of a different religion. Therefore, at this stage, it can be said that the opinion of the overwhelming majority of Muslims is that Qadianis are non-Muslims. Are Qadianis People of the Book? The learned counsel for the plaintiff has presented another argument that Qadianis at least believe in the Holy Quran. Therefore, they can be counted among the "People of the Book" or believers in the Holy Quran, and QADIANI (A follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) Since according to the law of Muhammad, the marriage of Muslims and People of the Book is not void but "irregular," i.e., undesirable, therefore this marriage was legal. Therefore, the dower should be considered legitimate. The court stated that the defendant's lawyer had no objection to this principle of Mohammedan Law. However, in their opinion, Qadianis cannot even be counted among the People of the Book. Both parties' lawyers agreed that there is no clear definition of the People of the Book anywhere. The literal meaning of this word seems to be those who believe in a divinely inspired book. The plaintiff had declared that Qadianis believe in the Holy Quran, therefore they are People of the Book, but after accepting this, there is no justification left to call Qadianis non-Muslims at all. Because if it is accepted that Qadianis believe in the Holy Quran, then there will be no reason left to call them non-Muslims. The court said that it did not like this argument because the very reason for considering Qadianis outside the circle of Islam is that they do not teach the meaning of the Holy Quran in which all Muslims believe. Rather, to serve their own purposes, they have twisted the verses of the Holy Quran and given them new meanings. Qadianis do not accept the Holy Quran in the form in which it has existed for thirteen hundred years and do not accept it in the form in which the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) presented it. Rather, they accept it in the way Mirza Ghulam Ahmad presented it. It is true that Christians have also made undue changes in their divinely inspired book (the Bible). And despite this, they are considered People of the Book, but the reason for this is that Muslims consider Jesus (peace be upon him) to be a prophet of God. That is why they consider his followers (People of the Book), even though they have made changes in the divinely inspired book according to the Muslim belief. BAIL KTER KANZENE MOODMBER OF FAKISTAN ||30th Aug., 1974 Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is a false prophet. In the court's opinion, the issue of Qadianis is completely different because Muslims do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a prophet in any way. Rather, they consider him a false claimant of prophethood. The followers of such a false claimant of prophethood cannot be considered people of the book in any way, especially when they do not accept the Holy Quran in the same sense as the general Muslims do. As it has been said in the initial verses of the Holy Quran that this book is a guide for those who believe in what has been revealed to our Prophet and believe in what was revealed to the prophets who came before him, as is clear from this verse. وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَ مَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ: (Surah No. 2, Verse No. 4) In the opinion of the court, this book cannot be a source of guidance for those who believe in any revelation after the departure of our Holy Prophet. Qadianis believe in the alleged revelations of Mirza. The court is of this opinion because the argument of the learned counsel for the plaintiff is meaningless. Qadianis cannot be called people of the book either. Therefore, the plaintiff was a non-Muslim at the time of her marriage to the defendant. The marriage of both was absolutely void and therefore seclusion cannot make it permissible, and the dower cannot be legally decreed. Mirza Sahib's claim of being appointed by Allah. The Lahori sect of Ahmadis does not consider Mirza Sahib a prophet but only a reformer. The results that need resolution in this case have far-reaching consequences and occur daily. In this regard, no precedent has been presented from our High Court, i.e., Lahore High Court. The report of the riots investigation (which was presented by Mian Ataullah, the learned counsel for the plaintiff) shows that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was a resident of a village "Qadian" in the district of Gurdaspur. He... QADIANI ISSUE LOGGINGAN MA He studied Persian and Arabic at home, but apparently, he did not receive any Western education. In 1864, he got a job as a clerk in the district court of Sialkot, where he worked for four years. In March 1882, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to have received a revelation that God had entrusted him with a special task. In other words, he claimed to be divinely appointed. Denial of the Descent of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) In 1888, under another revelation, he demanded allegiance from his followers. In the late 1890s, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad received another revelation: "Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon him), did not die on the cross, nor was he raised to heaven, but his disciples took him down from the cross in a wounded condition and nursed him until his wounds healed, then he fled to Kashmir where he died a natural death." Claim of Being the Like of Jesus Also, the belief that he will reappear in his original form near the Day of Judgment is wrong, and the meaning of his reappearance was only that another person possessing the qualities of Jesus, son of Mary, would appear in the community of the Prophet of Islam. And this promise has been fulfilled in the person of Mirza Sahib, who is the likeness of Jesus, and therefore he is the Messiah who was promised. Disturbance in Muslims Muslims were very disturbed by the propagation of this belief because this belief was completely contrary to the common belief that Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon him), would descend from heaven in his original form, and Muslim scholars strongly opposed it. KANAL OJJMVDE I OF FAKID LAN August 1974 Claim of Mahdi-hood After some time, Mirza Sahib also claimed to be the Mahdi. Not the Mahdi who had to achieve victories through bloodshed, but a rationalist Mahdi who had to convince his opponents with arguments. Jihad is forbidden In 1889, he presented another new idea that from now on, "there will be no Jihad by the sword, but Jihad will be limited to trying to satisfy the opponent with arguments." Claim to be a shadow prophet In 1901, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be a shadow prophet and through an advertisement *Ek Ghalati ka Azala*, he explained that the principle of the Seal of Prophethood means that after the death of the Prophet of Islam, no one will will not come with a new Sharia. But the appearance of a prophet without Sharia is not against the principle of the Seal of Prophethood. Claim to be the likeness of Krishna While speaking at a meeting in Sialkot in November 1904, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the likeness of Krishna. Separate census from Muslims In 1901, the Ahmadiyya community was established and at the request of Mirza Sahib himself, in the census papers of that year, they were shown as a separate sect of Muslims. (Report of the Court of Inquiry 398) 2270 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 In addition, numerous Hadiths and standard commentaries on the aforementioned verses have also stated that no new prophet will come after the Prophet of Islam. Sheikh Zafar Mahmood, the learned lawyer of Lieutenant Nazir Uddin, presented "Risala Tulu-e-Islam" July 1954, "Risala Faskh-e-Nikah Mirzaiyan," "Risala Tarjuman-ul-Quran" November 1953, the decision of the learned District Judge Munshi Muhammad Akbar of Bahawalpur in the case of Musammat Aisha vs. Abdul Razzaq, and Maulana Abul Ala Maududi's book "Qadiani Masala" in this regard. (Counsel for the Plaintiff) Mian Ataullah presented "Tulu-e-Islam" July 1954, "Khatm-e-Nabuwat Ki Haqeeqat" by Mirza Bashir Ahmad M.A. (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's younger brother, Khalifa Sani Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad), as well as the book "Al-Haq" known as "Mubahisa Ludhiana" written by the founder of the Ahmadiyya sect, his another work "Haqiqat-ul-Wahi," the report of the Inquiry into the 1953 riots in Punjab, Abul Ala Maududi's "Qadiani Masala ka Qadianiyon ki Taraf se Jawab," Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood's statement in the Court of Inquiry, and "Muqaddama Bahawalpur" by Jalaluddin Shams, "Tasdeeq-e-Ahmadiyyat" by Basharat Ahmad, Advocate Hyderabad Deccan, "Haqiqat-ul-Wahi," fourth edition 1950, and detailed references to "Inquiry Court's Report par ek Nazar" by Jalaluddin Shams, President Anjuman Ahmadiyya Pakistan. He especially drew attention to the Qadianis' belief that the learned counsel of the Ahmadiyya community, Mr. Abdul Rahman Khadim, had presented before the learned Judge of the Court of Inquiry and for which he inferred from the following Quranic verses: And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, then such people will be with those on whom Allah has bestowed favor, namely the prophets, the truthful, the martyrs, and the righteous. And these are excellent companions." (Surah. Verse 79) 2278 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug, 1974 It has been tried to prove from the writings of the present head of the Ahmadiyya community and the representative writers of this community that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to have received such revelation or inspiration, which God has so far reserved only for the prophets. Therefore, now the only question remains whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ever claimed that he received such revelation which could be called the revelation of prophethood. Before this, whenever a prophet came, he made a demand from the nation where he appeared. Our Prophet demanded the entire humanity to examine his claim and believe in him. And whoever denies the prophethood or expresses doubt in it is liable to suffer loss. Therefore, it is necessary for the nation to either accept the claim of prophethood or reject it. Another Musaylima Kazzab The approval of the claim leads to the establishment of a new religious sect, which the first sect considers to be out of its community. The new sect says that those who do not believe in the new prophet are out of their sect. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad extended his hand towards the public with the instruction that it should also be accepted. Muslims consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim to be a prophet as another example of Musaylima Kazzab: One who deviates an inch from Sharia is cursed. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had written very clearly in his early writings that to be a Muslim, it is necessary to believe in the basic tenets of Islam. The founder of the Ahmadiyya sect himself wrote in his book Ayam-e-Solh, page 96: 2280 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 197. A religion that teaches such a thing is a cursed and satanic religion. A person who makes such a declaration has not received a message from God, but his message is the message of Satan. This is the most severe insult to the Prophet of Islam." On page 1 of "Dafe-ul-Bala," he wrote: "The true God is the God who sent his Messenger to Qadian." On pages 149 and 150 of "Haqiqatul-Wahi," he wrote: "At first, I used to think that I had no comparison with Jesus Christ and that he was a Prophet. But later, when revelation began to descend upon me like rain, I had to abandon this belief. God addressed me as a Prophet and gave me the title of Prophethood!" He calls himself Nabi Ahmad and claims that this status was given to him by the Quran. (Izala-e-Auham, first edition, p. 673, second edition, p. 337). Furthermore, on page 665 of the same book, he has claimed to be the Promised Seed. On page of Ishtihar Miar ul Akhyar, he has claimed to be the Promised Mahdi and superior to most prophets. On pages 19 and 35 of Khutba Ilhamia, he has claimed the highest position of humanity for himself. He said that I am the Messiah and Mahdi for Muslims and Krishna for Hindus. (Lecture Sialkot, p. 33) 10. On page 13 of "Dafe-ul-Bala," he has claimed to be superior to Hazrat Imam Hussain as well." 11. He wrote on page 81 of "Ijaz-e-Ahmadi" that Hussain was killed by his enemies, and I was killed in the love of God. QADIANI 1550M On page 7, 6, 8 of the supplement Anjam Atham 12, he has made harsh statements about the family of Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ). He wrote: The three maternal and paternal grandmothers of Hazrat Isa were adulterous women. He himself used to lie, and he had nothing but mesmerism and deceit. On page 391 of Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, he very clearly claimed his prophethood by saying that he is a prophet, and the word prophet has been reserved only for him in this Ummah (nation). 12 And he wrote on page 74 of Arbaeen number 3 that he does not speak without revelation, and in Haqiqat-ul-Wahi p.52 he wrote that God has told him that he has been sent into the world as Rahmat-ul-lil-Alameen (a mercy to all the worlds). Also, in Haqiqat-ul-Wahi p.107, it is written that God has not given any other human being the honor that has been given to him, and that he is the Messenger of God. And also, in Supplement Anjam Atham p.154 and Haqiqat-ul-Wahi p.02, he claimed that God has given him Kauthar (a river in paradise). And also in Aina Kamalat Islam pp. 565, 563, he claims to be greater and superior, and says that he himself is God and that he created the earth and the heavens. For this reason, in his book Haqiqat-ul-Wahi p. 163, he declares that whoever does not believe in him is a Kafir (infidel). And in Fatawa Ahmadiyya, Vol. 1, p. 18, he has forbidden his followers from praying behind a person who does not believe in him. And also, in Al-Bushra p. 49, he narrated an inspiration that God called him his son, and in Haqiqat-ul-Wahi p. 99, he wrote that God told him that if he had not created Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, He would not have created the universe. Based on these statements of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a fatwa (religious edict) was obtained from the scholars of all sects in 1925. (Regarding mesmerism, see Izala Auham, page 5, printed in Rome - Publisher) (It has been published by Daftar Ahl-e-Hadith, Amritsar under the name "Nikah Mirzaiyan" - Publisher). NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 15- The current head of the Ahmadiyya sect, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad, has also continuously propagated Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim that he is a prophet. For example, on page 228 of Haqiqat-un-Nabuwwah, he wrote that it has become as clear as day that the door of prophethood is open even after the Prophet of Islam, and in Anwar-e-Khilafat, page 62, he wrote that Muslims have mistakenly assumed that God's treasury has become empty. Muslims do not realize God's power, otherwise, let alone one prophet, I say that thousands of prophets can come. Furthermore, on page 65 of Anwar-e-Khilafat, the current head of the Ahmadiyya sect wrote that if a sword were placed on both sides of my neck and I was asked to say that there would be no prophet after the Prophet of Islam, then I (Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood) would say that such a person is a liar. That prophets can come after the Prophet of Islam, and they certainly can. In this way, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad opened the door for the emergence of new prophets, and the Qadianis accepted Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a true prophet. The following examples are given in this regard. References to the Claim of Prophethood 1. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote in Akhbar Badr, dated March 5, 1908, that he is a prophet under the commands of God. 2. Mirza Bashiruddin wrote on page 74 of Haqiqat-un-Nabuwwah that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a prophet in the true sense of the word, and according to the Sharia, he is not a metaphorical prophet but a real prophet. The inevitable consequence of such a declaration of prophethood is that anyone who refuses to accept the claimant's status becomes an infidel. Therefore, the Qadianis consider all such Muslims as infidels who do not believe in the real prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. The following examples are given in this context. This reference is present in Haqiqat-ul-Khair, page 272, written by Bashiruddin! (Publisher) 2283 QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Every Muslim who has not joined the allegiance of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, even if he has not heard his name, is a Kafir and is out of the circle of Islam. (Aina-e-Sadaqat by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood p. 35) Every person who believes in Moses but does not believe in Jesus, or believes in Jesus but does not believe in the Prophet of Islam, or believes in the Prophet of Islam but does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, is not only a Kafir but a staunch Kafir and is out of the circle of Islam. (Commentary of Al-Fasal, Review of Religions, Volume No. 5, p. 110) Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood gave the following statement in the court of Sub Judge Gurdaspur, which was published in Al-Fadl dated 29026 June 1922, Volume No. 9, No. 10102: We have faith in Mirza Sahib, non-Ahmadis do not have faith in him. According to the teachings of the Holy Quran, denying any prophet is disbelief, and all non-Ahmadis are disbelievers. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad He has said the following verses: I am the Messiah of the age I am the Word of God, I am the Unique Muhammad, which is based (Tiryaq-ul-Qulub p. 5) Sometimes I am Adam, sometimes Moses, sometimes Jacob Also, I am Abraham, my generations are countless (Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya, part of Anjum p. 103) He claims this status for himself and declares everyone who does not accept this status of him as a Kafir. To reinforce his claim of prophethood, he took advantage of the Muslim belief that Jesus did not die on the cross, but is still alive in the fourth heaven, from where he will descend to earth before the Day of Judgment, and this is also near the Day of Judgment. 2284 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 will be one of the signs. Therefore, he himself claimed to be Jesus and called himself the Promised Messiah. This was the second stage of his series of inspirations. Another belief of Muslims is that Hazrat Imam Mahdi will appear before the Day of Judgment. He also claimed to be the Mahdi Mauood. He understood that in the past fourteen hundred years, Muslims have never tolerated anyone who claimed to be a prophet, like Musaylima Kazzab. That is why he wanted to get the protection of the (kind British government). The learned judges of the Inquiry Court have expressed the following opinion in this regard: English Policy Such differences suited the English very well. They wanted the nation they were ruling to be entangled in religious differences. As long as these disputes did not cause disruption of public order, if people argued about the right to go to heaven or the reasons for going to hell, as long as they did not break each other's heads and demand worldly goods for themselves, the English viewed these disputes with extreme indifference, even satisfaction. But as soon as it was time to break heads, the English became very strict and were not prepared for any compromise on it. Mirza Sahib was fully aware of this blessing of the British Raj, which not only allowed these differences but also encouraged them. Therefore, a major complaint of non-Ahmadis against the founder and leaders of the Ahmadiyya movement was that they were "abject sycophants of the English." (Inquiry Court Report p. 208) The founder of the Qadiani sect knew what had been done to Musaylima Kazzab and anyone else who had claimed prophethood since the advent of Islam. That is why, in order to establish his prophethood QAPLANT This sect was in dire need of the protection of the British government. In this connection, the following writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad have also been referenced: Praises of the British Now, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote in "Malfuzat Ahmadiyya, page 26, Volume 1": 1. We are so indebted to the British government that if we leave here, we cannot survive in Mecca or Constantinople. How can we even imagine opposing the British government?" Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote on page 96 of Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume Number: "I cannot carry out my work in Mecca, Medina, Rome, Iran, or Kabul. I pray that the British government remains established forever in India." Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said on page 23 of Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume Number: "If the Qadianis leave the benevolent shadow of the British government, where will they find refuge?" Qadianis and Pakistan Based on these reasons, the learned judges presented a summary of the Qadianis' attitude towards Pakistan in the Investigation Report, pages 208, 209, in these words: During the First World War, in which Turkey was defeated, celebrations were held in Qadian on the British victory over Baghdad in 1918, which caused severe resentment among Muslims, and Ahmadiyyat began to be seen as a slave of the British. As the possibility of dividing the country and establishing a separate homeland for Muslims loomed on the horizon, the shadow of coming events worried the Qadianis. From 1935 to the beginning of 1947, some of their writings revealed this. FAN Luth Aug., 1974 It is said that they initially expected to succeed the British, but when the hazy dream of Pakistan began to take the form of a future reality, they found it difficult to agree to a new kingdom. They must have certainly found themselves in double torment. They could not stay in India because it was to become a secular Hindu state, nor could they like Pakistan, in which there was no expectation of sectarianism being tolerated. Some of their writings reveal that they were against partition and that if the country was divided, they would try to reunite it. The obvious reason for this was that the future of Qadian, the center of Ahmadiyya, seemed very uncertain, about which Mirza Sahib had made many predictions." The Issue of Jihad For these reasons, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wanted to abolish the thirteen-hundred-year-old principle of Jihad, so he announced that from now on, Jihad by the sword is prohibited. Now, Jihad is only this: to convince your opponent with arguments." Regarding Jihad, these verses are present in the Holy Quran: "Permission is granted to those who are being fought against, because they have been wronged, and surely Allah is most capable of helping them. Those who have been evicted from their homes unjustly, merely for saying, 'Our Lord is Allah.' And were it not that Allah repels some people by means of others, monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is much mentioned, would have been destroyed. Allah will surely help those who help Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Almighty." (Surah 22 - Verse 39-40) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Indeed, Allah does not like transgressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out. And persecution is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al-Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. The prohibited month for the prohibited month, and so for all violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who fear Him." (Surat 2, Verse 190-194) Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and justly with those who did not fight you because of religion and did not expel you from your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. (Surat 2, Verse 8) 4. Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And whoever fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward. And what is [the matter] with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this 2287 2288 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 5 Expel us from this town whose people are cruel oppressors, and raise for us from Yourself a protector, and send us from Yourself a helper. (Surah 4, Ayat 73 75) Then when the sacred months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Surah 9, Ayat 5) So do not obey the disbelievers, and strive against them with the Qur'an a great endeavor. (Surah: 25, Ayat 52) The Ahmadiyya view on Jihad is that what is called "Jihad by the Sword" is limited only to self-defense. Also, in presenting his opinion on this issue, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has only clarified the principles based on Quranic verses and he has not abrogated any Quranic command or guidance. The other party says that the words in which Mirza Sahib has expressed his opinion on this issue make it very clear that he is not merely clarifying a Quranic principle, but is abrogating an established law of the Qur'an. In this regard, his following announcements are presented: 1. I have come to you with an order that from now on the Jihad of the sword is over. 2. Now Jihad for religion is forbidden. (Risala Jehad, p. 14) (Supplement - Khutba Ilhamia p 6) This is a sign of the coming of the Messiah that he will end the religious wars. QADIAN ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 4. I made effective speeches about the prohibition of Jihad. 5. I have written hundreds of books against Jihad and published them in support of the Government in Arabia, Egypt, Syria, and Afghanistan. (Sitara Qaiser) * The order of Jihad was revoked at the time of the Promised Messiah. Now, the evils of the land must be stopped. (Supplement to Khutba Ilhamia) Now, whoever raises a sword for the sake of religion and kills innocents, calling himself a Ghazi, is disobedient to God Almighty and His Messenger. (Supplement to Khutba Ilhamia) * In my sect, of which God has appointed me as the Imam and leader, there is absolutely no Jihad with the sword. This sect considers it absolutely forbidden to wage wars for the sake of religion. (Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, Supplement p. 232) In Islam, the issue of Jihad, in my view, there is no issue more disreputable to Islam than this. (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Vol. 5, p. 122) Accepting me as the Messiah and Mahdi is in itself a denial of the issue of Jihad. (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Vol. 7, p. 17) From these writings of Mirza Sahib and his claim that: "My revelation contains both command and prohibition." (Arba'een Number 4) It has been strongly argued that this declaration amounts to the abrogation or amendment of a recognized law of the Quran. The appellants have responded that there is no abrogation in these words and phrases, but merely a clarification of a principle of the Quran that has been misunderstood for centuries. And in any case, whatever others may have understood from these passages, the Ahmadis have always understood it. (From Muallima Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, p. 25) 2290 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 This means that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad merely cleared the original principle from dust and presented it in its original state. In this connection, the Ahmadiyya side also referred to the hadith of "Yada' al-Harb" that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad only suspended the war in accordance with this hadith instead of repealing any law. This point is very important because if it is established that the purpose of these opinions of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was to enforce a new law or partially amend it in place of an accepted law, and his followers also understood it in the same way, then he would be a legislative prophet. In this case, even the Ahmadi interpretation of Ayat Khatam al-Nabiyyin will be wrong. This situation will become clearer if this principle is determined on the basis of any revelation or inspiration. The non-Ahmadi party further advanced this argument by saying that the opinion expressed in these writings is presented as re-announcing the previous principle. Whenever Mirza Sahib becomes a legislative prophet under the principle that if the one who declares the law considers the right to declare reserved for himself instead of clarifying it, then the declaration of the law itself becomes the original law. Ahmadis present those verses of the Quran for the explanation of these writings which I have already referred to above and they do not teach the meaning that is generally understood from Ayah al-Saif. Abrogating and Abrogated An important belief of Ahmadis is that no verse of the Quran has been abrogated by another verse. Also, there is no conflict between Ayah al-Saif and the verses revealed in Mecca. They do not accept the whole theory of history and abrogation. The following two verses are presented in this regard: QADIANI ISSUE UBNERALUDIVA 1. When We abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? (Surah 2, Verse 106) 2. And when We substitute a verse in place of another – and Allah knows best what He sends down – they say, "You are but a forger." (Surah 16, Verse 101) According to the beliefs of Muslims, Qadianis are infidels and are outside the bounds of Islam" Since 1. They refuse to believe that the Holy Prophet was not the last prophet, they give wrong meanings to the Quran, and they call the religion whose followers believe the Holy Prophet to be the last prophet, accursed and satanic. 2. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed absolute legislative prophethood. 3. Their claim that Hazrat Jibrail (Gabriel) used to bring revelation to them and that their revelation is equal to the Holy Quran. 4. In various ways, they have insulted Hazrat Isa (Jesus), Muhammad Rasulullah (Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah), and Hazrat Imam Hussain. 5. Used insulting words about the Holy Prophet and his religion. 6. Calling all Muslims except Qadianis as infidels. 2292 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 During the riots of 1953 and before the investigation in 1953, the Qadianis denied most of their beliefs. Because the stance they adopted before the investigation court reveals that they tried to change the meanings and interpretations presented by the founder of this sect and his successors. But the books written by the founder of the Ahmadi sect and his successors reflect the philosophy of their beliefs. In this case, I have reached the following conclusions: Conclusions 1. There is consensus among Muslims that the Prophet of Islam was the last prophet of God and that no other prophet was to come after him. 2. There is consensus among Muslims that whoever does not believe in our Prophet being the last prophet is not a Muslim. 3. There is consensus among Muslims that Qadianis are non-Muslims. 4. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself, according to his own declarations, claimed that he receives such revelation which is equal to the revelation of prophethood. 5. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself has set standards in his earlier books that contradict his claim to prophethood. 6. His claim to be a complete prophet, the whole story of completion and manifestation is just a sham. 7. No one can receive the revelation of prophethood after the Holy Prophet, and whoever claims such a thing is outside the pale of Islam. QADIANI ISSUE Based on the above reasoning and findings, I believe that the decision of the initial hearing court is correct. And I endorse the entire decision. There is no weight in the appeal of Ms. Ummat-ul-Karim and I dismiss this appeal. As far as the appeal of Lieutenant Nazir-ud-Din is concerned, Mr. Zafar Mahmood Advocate has not told me anything about the appeal of Lieutenant Nazir-ud-Din. It has been proven that the dowry of Ms. Ummat-ul-Karim is in the possession of her ex-husband, which has been reasonably priced. There is no weight in this appeal either. I dismiss it as well. Since Both parties have failed in their appeal. Therefore, I consider it appropriate that no costs be imposed on either party. The Collector of Rawalpindi has been directed to collect the court fees. Muhammad Akbar Additional District Judge Rawalpindi June 3, 1955 Kon 1714 Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat Pakistan After the formation of Pakistan, under the patronage of Hazrat Ameer Shariat Syed Ataullah Shah Bukhari, this organization generally remained active in religious preaching, separate from political disputes, and especially in connection with the rejection of Qadianism. After the death of Hazrat Shah Sahib (may God have mercy on him), it continued its work under the patronage of Hazrat Khateeb Pakistan Maulana Qazi Ehsan Ahmad Sahib. After the death of Hazrat Qazi Sahib (may God have mercy on him), this organization is now working under the patronage of Hazrat Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib Jalandhari (may his blessings last). It is a matter of great joy that Ustad-ul-Ulama Hazrat Maulana Khair Muhammad Sahib Jalandhari (may his blessings last), the head of Madrasah Arabia Khair-ul-Madaris Multan, and Hazrat Maulana Syed Muhammad Yusuf Sahib Hanuri (may his blessings last), the head of Madrasah Arabia Islamia New Town Karachi, have accepted the guidance of this Majlis as advisors to the Majlis-e-Mushawarat, and have taken on a great responsibility of religious awareness. Under the patronage of the above-mentioned individuals, the work of Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat is currently being carried out in the best possible manner, under which approximately thirty-five (35) Islamic scholars are engaged in the duty of preaching Islam. Since last June 1917, Hazrat Munazir-e-Islam Maulana Lal Hussain Sahib Akhtar has been residing in London (Huddersfield) for the duty of preaching Islam, the excellent results of which are before you. After this, Maulana Moosuf is scheduled to visit the الجزائری in the British colonies by mid-July, because the Qadianis are spreading their conspiracies there too, for the prevention of which the Muslims of Najee have requested Maulana Lal Hussain Sahib Akhtar from our center, which the center has accepted in view of the preaching of Islam. The people of Najee are busy arranging a visa for Maulana Moosuf. It is a request to all the gentlemen to pray for the success and health of Hazrat Maulana Moosuf, and may God Almighty bless our good endeavors with the honor of acceptance, Amen, Amen. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2293 Further, in connection with this expansion of publication, the acting Nazim of the Jamaat, Maulana Abdur Rahim Ashar, toured East Pakistan for twenty-six days, from 20 Safar to 14 Rabi' al-Awwal, where the Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat had been established since last year, and its affiliation has also been done with the central Majlis Multan. Therefore, the acting Nazim visited Brahman Bari Kishore Tanj in the district of Comilla. In North Bengal, he toured Dinajpur, Panga Garh, and its adjoining villages. In Panga Garh, a Qadiani, Shamsuddin, repented and narrated a heart-wrenching story of Qadiani atrocities. Pray for him that God keeps him steadfast on Islam. He was a resident of Ahmad Nagar. The aforementioned areas had become centers of Qadiani intrigues. Later, speeches were held in important centers of Dhaka, the provincial capital, especially Chowk Wali Mosque, Lal Bagh Madrasa Qurania, and Baitul Karam Azimpur Colony, Nawab Ganj Bakshi Bazaar, Faridabad Dhaka, and the Islamic Academy, where special addresses were arranged for intellectuals and lawyers. After Maulana Sahib completed the tour very successfully and returned to Lahore, in Lahore, under the leadership of Hazrat Amir Markazia Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib Jalandhari, Maulana Muhammad Hayat Sahib Fateh Qadian, and Maulana Taj Mahmood Sahib, editor of Loulak Lyallpur, regarding the confiscation of Chatan Press, a religious writ that was filed, Maulana Sahib remained busy in its follow-up. Sufficient transcripts of religious debates, in which the Qadiani religion has been exposed, have been submitted to the court, which is being heard by Mr. Justice Muhammad Gul and Mr. Justice Karam Elahi Chauhan, judges of the High Court. May God Almighty grant these gentlemen the ability to decide according to the sentiments of the people of Islam. Nazim Daftar Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat Multan Pakistan 2296 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Say, "Truth has come, and falsehood has vanished. Indeed falsehood is ever vanishing." A Research-Based Verdict by the Pakistani Judiciary Mirzais are Apostates and Infidels By Mr. Sheikh Muhammad Rafiq Goraija, Judge Civil and Family Court Jamesabad, Sindh Compendium No. 3 Publisher Maktaba Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat, Multan, Pakistan 2297 QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION Publisher Calligraphy Publication Series (23) First Edition Central Office, Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat Pakistan Servant of the Poor, Munir Ahmed, Daily Mashriq Lahore Printing: Wafaq Press Lahore Pages 48 Pages Price Minor - 3.71 White - 5.01 Paisas Quantity [**** Date of Publication: Shaban 1390 AH, corresponding to October 1970 AD Address for Contact Central Office, Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat Tulkal Road, Multan Phone Number: 41-5050 2298 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Foreword Praise be to Allah alone, and blessings and peace be upon the one after whom there is no prophet, and upon his companions who fulfilled his religion and his covenant. The chain of prophethood, which began with Hazrat Adam (peace be upon him) and ended with the noble being of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), the foundation of the religion of Islam, the means of salvation, is the confirmation and acknowledgement of the Oneness of God and the Prophethood of Muhammad, and the belief in the finality of Prophethood. This is the reason why the Muslim Ummah, without any restriction of time and place, has never accepted any claimant of prophethood and has not tolerated his existence. Amir al-Mu'minin, the first Caliph Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him), with the unanimous agreement of all the Companions and the Ahl al-Bayt, waged war against the claimant of prophethood, Musaylimah al-Kadhdhāb, in which twelve hundred Companions of the Prophet were martyred, and Musaylimah was destroyed and ruined along with his twenty-eight thousand followers. From the Rashidun Caliphate to the fourteenth century, in all Islamic countries, any person who claimed prophethood was either killed if he did so in a state of sound mind and senses, or imprisoned if he did so due to mental disorder. The last half of the nineteenth century was a painful period of decline and decay for Muslims, in which Muslims became victims of mutual discord and divisions. The Christians, who could not compete with the strength and power of the Muslims, seized control of India due to their mutual differences and disputes. With the domination of disbelief, India became Dar al-Harb (a land of war). Islamic and Sharia punishments were completely abolished and a government was established where one could say "I am the Truth" and not be hanged. In these circumstances, the British raised their own planted plant, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, who began to announce and advertise his self-made prophethood. On this claim of prophethood, all schools of thought in India, such as Sunni, Shia, Ahl-e-Hadith, Barelvi, Deobandi, the scholars and jurists unanimously issued a fatwa (religious decree) of apostasy and disbelief against Mirza Sahib, not only the scholars of India but also Afghanistan, Iran, QALIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION The scholars of Egypt, Hejaz, Syria, and Iraq also stamped their approval on the disbelief and apostasy of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. In 1892, Mirza Sahib sent a letter to Amir Abdul Rahman, the ruler of Afghanistan, for the verification and support of his self-made prophethood. In response, Amir Sahib wrote, "Come here and talk." Where did Mirza Sahib have the courage and bravery to go to Afghanistan and face the Islamic penal codes? In 1902, Abdul Latif Afghani obtained permission from Amir Habibullah Sahib, the ruler of Afghanistan, for Hajj and pilgrimage. Amir Sahib not only permitted the performance of Hajj but also provided funds for the journey. Abdul Latif chose the route to Hejaz via India. Upon reaching here, this simple-minded person got caught in the deceptive trap of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and lost his faith. Instead of performing Hajj and being honored with the visitation of the holy shrines, he went back to Afghanistan. When Amir Sahib learned of this, he ordered the matter to be presented before the Supreme Court of Afghanistan. Based on Abdul Latif's statement and beliefs, the Supreme Court ruled that he had become an apostate. Consequently, according to the court's decision, Abdul Latif was stoned to death. The effect and result of this Islamic decision is that to this day, not a single person in the kingdom of Afghanistan is a Mirzaite. In 1934, the government of Afghanistan sentenced Mullah Abdul Hakeem Qadiani and Anwar Ali Qadiani to death by hanging for apostasy and spying for the British. Perhaps due to these reasons, Sir Zafarullah made a malicious attempt to incite conflict between Pakistan and Afghanistan during his tenure as Foreign Minister. Due to Zafarullah's corrupt ideas and reprehensible actions, when he went to South Africa in 1967, the Muslims there greeted him with black flags and chanted slogans of "Black Zafarullah." Dom Aug. 197, November 19, 1927, Mauritius (Chief Justice of the island in the Indian Ocean) issued a verdict declaring the Mirzais to be apostates based on their beliefs. On January 20, 1935, Mustafa Kamal confirmed the fatwa of the scholars of Turkey and declared the Mirzais to be outside the fold of Islam. Recently, the powerful governments of Hejaz, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq have declared Mirza Qadiani an apostate and outside the fold of Islam, and have confiscated the properties of local Qadianis. In 1932, a Muslim woman named Aisha filed a suit for annulment of marriage against her husband, Sami Abdur Razzaq Mirzai, in the court of the Civil Judge of Ahmedpur Sharqia. Considering the importance of the case, the ruler of the state of Bahawalpur, His Excellency Sir Muhammad Sadiq, ordered Mr. Muhammad Akbar, District Judge of Bahawalnagar, to hear the case as a Special Judge in Khass Bahawalpur. Accordingly, the honorable Judge, after a lengthy hearing on February 6, 1935, delivered his historic verdict, the echo of which was heard throughout India. The honorable Judge declared the Mirzais to be infidels and ordered the annulment of Aisha's marriage. On June 13, 1955, Mr. Sheikh Muhammad Akbar, Sessions Judge of Rawalpindi, in a disputed case between a Muslim woman and a Mirzai man, declared the Mirzais to be outside the fold of Islam. The booklet under review is the learned decision of His Excellency Sheikh Muhammad Rafiq Sahib Goricha, Civil Judge with Family Court Authority, Jamesabad, District Tharparkar, Sindh, which he issued in the case of annulment of marriage, Musmat Ummat-ul-Hadi Muslima versus Hakim Nazir Ahmed Barq Mirzai. The honorable Judge has clarified the difference between the religious beliefs and thoughts of the parties in the light of the Quran, Sunnah, and the writings of the Mirzais. This decision was made after continuous study and great hard work. In this decision, the honorable Judge, while declaring the Mirzais to be outside the fold of Islam, declared the marriage to be illegal and ineffective. The enthusiastic welcome that Muslims have given to this learned decision and our QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2301 The way newspapers, journals, and magazines have covered it with front pages and bold headlines is unprecedented. This verdict has brought immense joy to Muslims, while a state of mourning has descended upon the homes of Mirzais. It is rumored that Zafarullah, Nasir Ahmad Bhutto, and Qasuri are consulting with each other regarding filing an appeal in the High Court against this scholarly decision. The central Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat is eagerly awaiting this appeal and deems it necessary to express its belief that... Neither dagger will rise, nor sword from them; These arms of mine have been tested. The Mirzais have not been able to prove their stance correct in the light of the Quran, Sunnah, and knowledge, nor will they be able to do so until the Day of Judgment. Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat is grateful to Mr. Muhammad Usman Sahib Advocate James Abad for conducting a very scholarly debate on behalf of the Muslims and for assisting the esteemed court in proving the Mirzais as out of the fold of Islam in the light of irrefutable proofs from the Quran and Sunnah. May Allah reward him with the best of rewards. (Publication Department, Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwwat Pakistan, Multan) This case of annulment of marriage was filed in the court of Civil Judge Mr. Sheikh Muhammad Rafiq Sahib Gareja (who also has the powers of a Family Court) by a woman from Karachi, Ummat-ul-Hadi, against a person, Hakim Nazir Ahmed Barq (who is a sixty-year-old man). The judge's decision consists of 34 pages of English type. It contains a detailed discussion on the religious beliefs of the Ahmadis. In this regard, numerous quotations have been given from the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya sect, as well as countless references from the Quran and Hadith. The opinions of Hazrat Allama Iqbal, Sir Amir Ali, and other prominent Muslim figures have also been recorded. 2302 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 The important points of the case's discussion are: Is the court authorized to hear this case? After the settlement of the parties' previous litigation, does the plaintiff have the right to file a case? Was the plaintiff an adult at the time of marriage? 4. Was this a deceptive marriage? Was the marriage of the parties illegal? 5. Can the plaintiff announce the annulment of her marriage? Has the defendant actually failed to provide for the plaintiff for more than two years? - Does the plaintiff have the right to divorce? If so, under what conditions? In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Translation of the text of the judgment of the case of annulment of marriage Text of the judgement:- Family Suit No. 1979/9 Musamat Ummat-ul-Hadi D/O Sardar Khan Plaintiff (From District Karachi) Versus Hakim Nazir Ahmed Barq Defendant Judgement:- The plaintiff has filed this suit for the annulment of her marriage with the defendant on the following grounds. That on March 22, 1969, when the plaintiff was barely fourteen and a half years old, her father, under Muhammadan Law, married her to the defendant. The plaintiff's father is a weak person and QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION has lost his religious balance and is not capable of earning his livelihood. Therefore, the plaintiff and her other siblings were raised by her elder brother, who is a government employee. The plaintiff's father is under the spiritual influence of the defendant, who is sixty years old and presents himself as a religious reformer who has connections with Allah Almighty. The plaintiff's father has been with the defendant for a long time and believes in him, and due to religious differences, his relations with other members of the family are not pleasant. The plaintiff was residing in Kunri with her brother, and she went to see her father, when the latter married her to the defendant. Immediately after the marriage, the plaintiff returned to her mother and informed her about this deceitful marriage and her displeasure with it. Marital relations between the defendant and the plaintiff have not yet been established. The defendant is an old man of sixty years and not a member of the plaintiff's community. Apart from religious differences between them, there has been a long period of criminal litigation between the defendant and the plaintiff's brother due to the marriage, and that the plaintiff cannot live happily with the defendant as a result of this marriage. The defendant has not given the plaintiff any expenses etc. for more than two years. That the plaintiff has now reached the age of majority. She is within the jurisdiction of this court and has now exercised her right of puberty through this case. That otherwise also, this marriage between the parties is illegal and invalid because the plaintiff is a Sunni Muslim and the defendant is an Ahmadi (Qadiani). The defendant has opposed the hearing of this case on numerous grounds, which are included in his thirteen- page written statement. I do not consider it necessary to reproduce the written statement here because it would unnecessarily lengthen the judgment. However, it is sufficient to say that the defendant has denied all the allegations of the plaintiff. He has also challenged the plaintiff's statement regarding age and the jurisdiction of the court on the question of the plaintiff's residence, and the right to claim conjugal rights. The defendant also provided details of his relationship with the plaintiff's father on the pages. August 10, 194 He has stated, and while mentioning his religious beliefs, has claimed that this marriage between the parties is legal. The defendant's position will be discussed at the appropriate time in the decision. In light of the statements of the parties, the following issues are identified for resolution: - 1. Does the court not have the authority to hear this case? 2. Does the plaintiff have the right to file this case now, due to the settlement of previous litigation between the parties? 3. Was the plaintiff a minor at the time of the marriage? 4. Did the plaintiff's father fraudulently arrange her marriage with the defendant? 5. Was this marriage between the parties illegal? 6. Does the plaintiff have the right to declare the annulment of her marriage with the defendant? 7. Has the defendant failed to provide expenses, etc., to the plaintiff for more than two years? 8. Is the plaintiff entitled to a divorce? And if so, on what conditions? I have heard the arguments of the parties' lawyers and the defendant's position, which he presented himself. The plaintiff's learned counsel, Mr. Muhammad Usman, cited several books on religion and law, which I will mention in the decision. After hearing the arguments and considering the evidence in the case, I have drawn the following conclusions. Issue No. 1. The plaintiff has stated in her application and in her statement before the court that she resides in Samaro. The defendant has neither denied this in his written statement nor challenged it before the court. In paragraph number 12 of his written statement, the defendant has admitted that... Beauty and Grace QADIANI ISSUE UJENGAL DISCUSSION That the plaintiff has been residing with her brother in Samaro. Therefore, the plaintiff's general residence that place will be considered where she is actually residing, not the place where her father resides. Under Rule No. 1 of the West Pakistan Family Court Rules, 1965, the court where the plaintiff resides has the right to hear the case of annulment of marriage. Samaro certainly falls within the jurisdiction of this court. And this court is authorized to hear and decide the case in question. Therefore, the issue under discussion is settled in favor of the plaintiff. Issue No. 2 The responsibility for the settlement of this issue rests with the defendant, who has not presented any evidence in support of his position. He has not been able to present any decision of any court to prove that this case cannot be discussed again now. In this regard, the defendant's position is lifeless and has no weight. Therefore, this issue is decided against the defendant. Issue No. 5 This is a very important issue and if it is decided in favor of the plaintiff, then there will be no need to consider other matters for the decision of this case. The learned counsel for the parties discussed this issue thoroughly. It is noteworthy that the defendant Hakim Nazir Ahmed, without the assistance of his lawyer, Mr. Latif, argued his own case on the legal aspect of this issue with full religious zeal. The learned counsel for the defendant, Mr. Latif, relying on Section 23 of the West Pakistan Family Court Act, 1964, took the position that this court does not have the authority to hear the legal validity of the marriage. Because this marriage was performed under the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance. Section 23 states: NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 No family court will consider the validity of a marriage that has been registered under the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961; no evidence will be admissible to the aforementioned court in this regard. Upon careful study of the aforementioned Section 23, it becomes clear from its language that the restriction on considering the validity of a marriage applies only when a marriage is under the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance; therefore, before resorting to the contents of Section 23, the defendant must prove that the parties' marriage was in accordance with the requirements of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961. Sub-section of Section number of the Muslim Laws Ordinance clearly states that it applies to all Muslim citizens of Pakistan. Under Section 5 of the aforementioned Ordinance, only those marriages can be registered that have been performed under Muslim Laws, and sub-section number of Section number of the Ordinance states: Every marriage performed under Muslim Laws shall be registered in accordance with the contents of this Ordinance. There are restrictions on a Muslim's unrestricted power to marry a person from an opposing sect under Muslim Family Law. The most important restriction in this regard is the religion or beliefs of the parties. Muslims belonging to different schools of thought can marry each other freely, and slight differences in jurisprudential views are of no importance. In Hanafi jurisprudence, a man can marry a woman or a Kitabiya (woman of the book), but a Muslim woman cannot marry anyone other than a Muslim man. A Muslim woman cannot marry a Kitabi, nor any non-Muslim, including Christians, Jews, or idolaters; her marriage to them will be invalid. The learned counsel for the plaintiff has emphasized that the marriage between the plaintiff and the defendant is ineffective. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2307 Because the latter Qadiani (Ahmadi) is a non-Muslim. Therefore, now the question requiring settlement is whether the marriage between the parties took place under Muslim law, and since this marriage is certainly not permissible under Muslim law, therefore, it has become even more necessary to examine this aspect of the case in detail. To reach a conclusion in this regard, it is necessary to find out whether both parties are Muslims or not. Therefore, in this connection, this court can investigate the parties. Family courts are specifically formed to determine such matters. Therefore, in my opinion, the validity of the marriage between the parties can be investigated. According to the plaintiff's statement, her marriage with the defendant is ineffective. Therefore, if in the eyes of the law also the marriage is ineffective, and such a marriage which is illegally registered under the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance has no legal status and cannot be matured under Section 23 of the Family Court. I agree with this interpretation of the law and have no hesitation in declaring that the prohibition under Section 23 can only apply if a valid Muslim marriage has been registered under the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance. And for this purpose, the court has the power to see whether the marriage between the parties even exists or not. It is worth mentioning here that the West Pakistan Family Court has been amended by the Amending Ordinance of 1949, under which Clause No. 4 has been added to the schedule and special powers have been given to hear cases of validity of marriages. In view of this addition, it is my opinion that Section No. 23 of the West Pakistan Family Court Ordinance has been indirectly repealed to that extent. Now, before examining whether the defendant is a non-Muslim, I would like to refer to Writ Petition No. 937 of Agha Shorash Kashmiri against West Pakistan. 2308 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 I consider it necessary to refer to the observations of the West Pakistan High Court regarding children in the context of (1968), in which it was held that the court can determine that Ahmadis are not Muslims, if this relates in any way to the right to property or an office. These observations support me in the case under discussion that the court is authorized to investigate whether the defendant is a Muslim because of being Qadiani (Ahmadi) or not. The observations made by the Honorable Justice of the High Court in Writ Petition No. 1937 (1968), which have been mentioned above, are as follows: "2. As far as fundamental rights regarding freedom of trade, money and speech are concerned, they have been suspended due to the declaration of emergency. There is freedom to practice religion and to declare it. But the issue of its practice is subject to the law of public order and morality, therefore it is not absolute. Being subject to the law means that this freedom is recognized for every citizen of Pakistan, which is subject to the requirements of the law of public order and morality. The gist of all the arguments of the learned counsel for the petitioner is that Ahmadiyya is not a sect of Islam, and the petitioner is guaranteed to say this under the Constitution. But the learned counsel has overlooked the fact that Ahmadis, as citizens of Pakistan, also have this constitutional guarantee and freedom to declare that they are within the bounds of Islam. How can the petitioner deprive others of the right that he demands for himself? This is beyond our understanding. He certainly cannot threaten them. The question to be settled at this time is how the petitioner and his other like-minded people can legally prevent Ahmadis from believing that they are as good followers of Islam as anyone else who calls himself a Muslim, despite the ideological differences of other sects of Islam. The answer to this question lies in the petitioner's QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2309 The lawyer very clearly denied that any case or declaration would be permissible through which it could be determined that Ahmadis are not Muslims, or through which Ahmadis could be prevented from calling themselves Muslims. This is satisfactory, and this mere question should not be raised unless it relates to a right to property or office. In such a case, a civil suit would be permissible. The well-known forms of the latter relate to the positions of Sajjada Nashin or trustee of a Khanaqah, and other such institutions where religious beliefs are sometimes a fundamental condition for holding those positions. For our purposes, the most appropriate example is Article 10 of the Constitution, according to which, among other characteristics, it is mandatory for a presidential candidate to be a Muslim. Under Section 8 of the Presidential Elections Act of 1964, the Returning Officer has the power to conduct a summary inquiry to satisfy himself that a presidential candidate is eligible to be elected President under the Constitution. This includes an investigation into whether the candidate is Muslim. If a candidate's nomination papers are rejected because he is not a Muslim, then an appeal can be made before the Election Commission, and whatever decision the Commission gives on such an appeal will be final. Article A of the Constitution further states that any dispute regarding an election shall be resolved only in accordance with the prescribed procedure or by a tribunal established for that purpose, and not in any other way. Clause number in the article states that "when a person is declared elected as President, the validity of the election shall not be questioned in any way before any court or authority." Thus, it is clear that even for the presidential election, special powers have been established for the purpose of definitively determining whether the candidate is Muslim or not, and the jurisdiction of the civil court has been limited. 2310 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Now we review every aspect of whether the marriage between the parties in the case under discussion is a Muslim marriage or not. Because, according to the plaintiff's statement, the defendant is a non-Muslim due to being a follower of Qadiani (Ahmadi) beliefs. In this regard, only one point is worth considering, and that is whether the defendant is a Muslim or not. As far as the plaintiff is concerned, she is a Hanafi (Sunni) Muslim, while the defendant himself has declared that he is a Qadiani (Ahmadi). To form a correct opinion about the defendant's beliefs and his religion, it seems appropriate to present the necessary parts of his statement, his letters, and some other writings. In his statement X29, the defendant says: "I belong to the Ahmadi sect. I have been a Caliph since November 18, 1965, and Sardar Muhammad Khan has been my follower since then. I am the third Caliph of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. It is a fact that currently, the Caliph of the Ahmadiyya community is Mirza Nasir Ahmad M.A., who is the eldest son of the second Caliph of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad." "The second Caliph of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was Bashiruddin Ahmad. It is a fact that in paragraph number 3 of my application, I stated that the plaintiff's father belongs to the Sunni sect of Islam. I am a true follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and have complete faith in his teachings. I have studied the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani." "It is a fact that I wrote in a letter that after studying the Holy Quran, it was revealed to me that in 1399 Hijri, on a Monday night in the month of Ramadan, I would be made an Ummah Prophet and Messenger. I wrote in a letter X34 that my real name in the heavens and on the throne is Muhammad Ahmad. It is my belief that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is my spiritual mother and Hazrat Muhammad SAW is my spiritual father. And I am their complete spiritual son." QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION "I believe in the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. I cannot deny the fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be a prophet and messenger. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad declared himself an Ummah prophet and messenger. It is a fact that a claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was published in the March 5, 1908 issue of Badr in which he said that he was a prophet and messenger. In it, he did not make this claim in the capacity of an Ummah prophet or messenger. I have read Mirza Bashiruddin's book "Haqiqat-ul-Nabuwwah" in which Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has been declared a real prophet, not a metaphorical one. It is a fact that a person who denies the office of prophet is considered a Kafir. I have read Mirza Bashiruddin's book "Aina-e-Sadaqat" in which it is said that a person who does not believe in the prophethood of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, regardless of whether he has heard his name or not, is a Kafir and is out of the fold of Islam. Mirza Fazal Ahmad was the son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and had no allegiance. It is a fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not offer the funeral prayer of his son Mirza Fazal Ahmad. According to our belief, we do not offer the funeral prayer of those who do not believe in the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. According to our belief, a woman who is a follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad cannot marry a person who is not their follower." Exhibit 36, the defendant says: "The All-Knowing and Wise God Almighty, in accordance with all His promises, etc., and eternal and infinite purposes, etc., on Sunday, December 31, 1967, through His revelations, bestowed upon me, the humble one, the knowledge that, in accordance with our eternal and infinite purposes, etc., despite the 27th of Ramadan, the defendant can be considered a Muslim or not. For this purpose, it would not be unnecessary to investigate the history of the Ahmadis. 23 12 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 The History of Ahmadiyyat To understand this sect, it is necessary to review the era in which this sect came into existence. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the founder of this movement. His father, Mirza Ghulam Murtaza, was employed in the Sikh court. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was born on February 13, 1835, in a village (Qadian) in the district of Gurdaspur. He was educated at home and could only read Arabic, Persian, and Urdu. In 1864, he was employed as a clerk in the District Court of Sialkot, where he worked for four years. Later, he left his job and began to devote his time to writing, composing, and studying religious matters. In March 1882, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed that he had received inspiration from God. In 1947, he claimed to be a prophet and messenger. It is important to keep in mind that only a short time before this, the subcontinent had come under foreign subjugation. Muslims had ruled this land for over eight hundred years, and their effects on society, their mark on education, and their reforms in governance were still fresh. Now the time had come when, in addition to the internal process of decline that was hollowing out the roots of their power, certain forces were also after them over which they had no control, forces that were operating on a global scale. In the West, Christianity was actively working against Islam. The Arab society in the Middle East, which had once been the cradle of Islam due to its good fortune, was born in Mecca, matured in Medina, and on the night between Saturday and Sunday, December 29-30, 1967, by making an announcement on its highest throne and in all the heavens, it has revealed the truth that the Throne of Lightning (i.e., the defendant) from tonight has given Muhammad Mustafa and Ahmad Qadiani the honor of prophethood and messengership, etc., in a metaphorical and representative way, and has given them the complete honor of being Ahmad Rasulullah and Muhammad Rasulullah spiritually. Afterwards, it was learned that QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 4313 We have Hazrat Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, Allah Ahmad, to make the Sun of the Prophets apparent and manifest to the whole world. He has granted me the status and rank of the Moon of the Prophets, i.e., the Moon of all the Messengers." If the defendant says in statement 38: "I am helpless. In your eyes, I am the worst of all human beings in every way, and You consider it an act of virtue and a great reward to destroy me in every way. etc. But in the eyes of God and the Messenger, because God and the Messenger are very The glorious model is the Caliph and the Imam of the Time, the Mujaddid of the fifteenth century Hijri, and the entire spiritual Emperor of heavens etc., and complete and comprehensive manifestation of Hazrat Rasool etc. etc." In Exhibit 24, the defendant says: "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, in my opinion, was, in a metaphorical and shadow way, what Hazrat The Messenger of Arabia was. I am helpless, in a manifestation and shadow way, exactly what Hazrat Sahib was. The Holy Prophet is spiritually my father and Hazrat Mirza Sahib is spiritually my mother, and I am the perfect and Comprehensive spiritual son, born of both of them, and my original name on the Throne and in the heavens of God is Muhammad Ahmad. The defendant has admitted that he is a follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, so it is very important to find out It is necessary to follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and believe in his teachings, the ascent of Damascus Fell into decline, and his grave was dug in Baghdad, where such a mixture of theory and practice was prepared. Which has nothing to do with Islam. The ideological division of Muslims had begun. And from this The Indian subcontinent could not remain unaffected either. Those foreigners who were here for trade were here They stayed here, they started conspiracies and intrigues to gain power, and finally 2314 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 established their government. Muslims still had superiority over the other nations of this country and they were desirous of ruling this country again. This situation shook the minds of the foreigners and they thought that until the Muslims were completely eradicated, these foreigners would not be able to perpetuate their power, so they used all the resources of their universal empire and industrially advanced economy against the Muslims. No deceitful tactic was left untried. The Hindu population also affiliated their interests with the foreigners and some Mir Jafar and Mir Sadiq were found among these Muslims. Muslims made heroic efforts against foreign domination but they could not stop this flood. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the entire subcontinent was under British rule. In the wake of the foreign government, Christian missionaries also arrived in the subcontinent, after which a long and grueling period of trials began for the Muslims. The Instruments of the British The cunning British were aware that the Muslims of the subcontinent were extremely sensitive about religion, and it was only Islam that had united them and made them a great power, so the British thought that if the unity of the Muslims could somehow be destroyed and their solidarity shattered, then it would be easier to enslave them. The British found in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad all the qualities that were necessary to create division and discord among Muslims. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, with the support of the British, started creating an atmosphere of division and distrust among the Muslims. This It is a proven fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was an instrument of the British to create division and discord among Muslims. Mr. Justice Munir and Mr. Justice Kayani also expressed similar views in their report on the 1953 Punjab riots, which is commonly known as the Munir Report. QADIANI ISSUE – GENERAL DISCUSSION In his book "Tabligh-e-Risalat," Volume 1, page 1, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad states: "From my childhood up to my current age of sixty, I have been earnestly striving through my writings and speeches to instill feelings of love and affection for the British in the hearts of Muslims. I have also been trying to persuade Muslims to abandon the idea of jihad against the British." In "Shahadat-ul-Quran," he says: "As I have repeatedly stated, Islam has two parts: one is to obey God's commands, and the other is to be loyal to the government that has brought peace and has saved us from the oppressors of this land." In another place, he says: "I have written several books in Urdu, Persian, and Arabic to inform the countries of the world that Muslims are living a life of great contentment and joy under the British Raj." In another place, he writes: "I assert emphatically that only my sect among Muslims has been extremely loyal and obedient to the British government, and no step should be taken that would create any kind of obstacle for the British government in carrying out its work." In Al-Fazl of October 19, 1915, he wrote: "The British government is a blessing and a shield for the Ahmadis, and only in its shadow can they flourish. Our interests are completely safe under this government. Wherever the British government's footsteps reach, an opportunity arises for us to propagate our beliefs." 2316 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 30th Aug. 1974 In Volume 1 of "Tabligh-e-Risalat," he says: "I cannot preach my faith in Medina, Rome, Syria, Iran, or Kabul, but only under the shadow of this (British) government, for whose prosperity I always pray." This makes it very clear that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had obtained an open license to spread discord and division among Muslims merely to please his masters. In his writings, he himself has complained that he is labeled as an agent of British imperialism. It is necessary to examine the circumstances under which this (Ahmadi) movement grew, to determine what the necessary conditions are for being a Muslim. Ameer Ali writes in his book "Muhammadan Law": "A person who declares that he has embraced Islam, or in other words, affirms the unity of God and the prophethood of Muhammad, is a Muslim and is subject to Muslim law." Anyone who believes in the unity of God and the prophethood of the Arab Prophet enters the fold of Islam. Sir Abdul Rahim writes in his book "Muhammadan Jurisprudence" that the Islamic faith consists of the sovereignty of the One God and the truthfulness of Muhammad's mission as God's prophet. These views have been expressed in numerous other books. The conditions for being a Muslim are recorded in the Holy Quran in Surah An-Nisa. Allah Almighty says: "O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the books that He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray." (Surah An-Nisa, Verse 136) QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2317 The aforementioned verse of the Holy Quran clearly mentions previous prophets, heavenly scriptures, and the Holy Prophet and his book, but there is no reference to future prophets and their books anywhere in it. No conclusion can be drawn from this except that the Holy Prophet is the last prophet. And the book that was revealed to him is the last book. The same thing has been said with more emphasis in Surah Ahzab. Allah Almighty says: Muhammad ﷺ is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets. And Allah is Knowing of all things. (33:40) The Holy Prophet ﷺ himself has also clarified the situation in many hadiths. The Holy Prophet ﷺ says: (a) When a prophet died in Israel, another prophet took his place, but there will be no prophet after me. (Bukhari). (b) The series of messengership and prophethood has ended; no messenger or prophet will come after me. (Tirmidhi). (c) I am the last prophet ﷺ and you are the last Ummah. (Ibn Majah) After the above sayings of the Holy Quran and the Messenger Muhammad, it is surprising to know that the defendant has placed himself (God forbid) in the ranks of the prophets and this praised Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has also claimed to be a prophet, nabi, and rasool. I have already mentioned the beliefs of the defendant, which are recorded in his statements and letters. In order to shed light on the clear differences between Ahmadis and Muslims, it is necessary to quote some of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's so-called revelations. In Izala-e-Auham, he says: I am the one who is mentioned in this way. 2318 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 "Giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." In another place, he said: "I am the Promised Messiah." On page number 1 in "Miyar al-Akhyar," he says: "I am the Mahdi, and I am superior to many prophets." On page 33 of the Sialkot speech, he claims: "I am the Messiah and Mahdi for Muslims and Krishna for Hindus." On page number 39 of "Haqiqat-ul-Wahi," he writes: "I am a prophet; the name of prophet has been given only to me." On page 99 of the same book, he says: "God has said to me that: 'Lawlaka lama khalaqtul aflak' (If you had not been created, I would not have created the heavens and the earth.)" He then says: "God has said to me that: 'Wa ma arsalnaka illa rahmatan lil'alameen' (And We have not sent you except as a mercy to the worlds.)" On page 107 of this book, he further says: "God said to me that: 'Innaka lamin al-mursaleen' (Indeed, you are among the messengers.)" QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2319 Page 39, he further states: "And I have been inspired, which says:" "O mankind! Behold, I am the Messenger of Allah to you all." Page 29, he expresses his views thus: "One form of disbelief is when a person does not believe in Islam and does not consider the Holy Prophet Muhammad as God's messenger. Another form of disbelief is when a person does not believe in the Promised Messiah and, despite having conclusive proof of his truthfulness, declares him a fabricator, even though God and His Messenger have testified to his truthfulness and whose mention is also present in the sacred scriptures of previous prophets. Therefore, whoever rejects the command of God and His Messenger is a disbeliever. If considered carefully, both types of disbelief fall under the same category." On page 63 of Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, he states: "He who does not believe in me is a disbeliever." Mirza Ghulam Ahmad further states: "Through me, God has shown His face to the people. Therefore, O people who seek guidance, bring yourselves to my door." "God has revealed to me that whoever does not follow me and does not enter my circle and remains my opponent will be considered a rebel against God and the Messenger and will be deserving of Hell." "God has spoken to me that in this era, envy against God has spread more than in all previous eras because the importance of the mentioned Messenger has now greatly diminished." 2320 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 "Therefore, God has sent me as the Promised Messiah." On page 63 of Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, he says: "He who does not believe in me is a disbeliever." In another place, he expressed his views as follows: "I am the Promised Messiah and the one whom the Great Prophet declared the Prophet of God." "I am a prophet according to the command of Allah Almighty, and denying this is a sin. How can I deny it when God Almighty Himself has bestowed upon me the office of prophethood? I will remain firm in this belief until the last breath of my life." "God has revealed to me, 'O Ahmad, We have made you a prophet.'" "I swear by the God in whose hands my life is, that He Himself has sent me and He Himself has made me a prophet." "God has revealed to me that every person to whom my message reaches and does not accept me is not a Muslim." "Now it is God's will that those among the Muslims who are far from me will be destroyed, whether they are kings or subjects. I am not saying this on my own, but this is the revelation that God has made to me." In (Fatawa Ahmadiyya, Volume Number, page 18), Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says: "Do not offer prayers behind those who do not believe in me." On page of its second volume, he writes: "Do not give your daughters in marriage to those who do not believe in me." On page 89 of Anwar Khilafat, he writes: "Do not offer the funeral prayer for anyone who does not believe in the Promised Messiah." In Anjam Atham (Appendix), he says: "Jesus Christ had three maternal grandmothers and three paternal grandmothers who were prostitutes." In "Tadhkirah Shahadatain," on page 64, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says: "The time is coming, indeed it has arrived, when this will be the only religion that everyone will follow. God will shower His extraordinary blessings upon this religion and this movement and will destroy every person who harbors hostile intentions against it. Only one religion and one leader will remain on the face of the earth. I have only come to sow the seed, and I have done my work. This page will now grow into a mighty tree and bear fruit, and no one will be able to stop its growth." In Tuhfah Golarviyah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says: "The time is coming, indeed it has arrived, when the movement will become universal, and Islam and Ahmadiyyat will become synonymous with each other. This is a revelation from God, for whom nothing is impossible." "Wherever mention is made of 'Prophet' in Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, the Bible, the Book of Daniel, and the books of other prophets, the term 'Prophet' applies to me." In Daf'e Al-Bala, on page 13, he says: "I am superior to Hussain." In Aina-e-Kamalat (Exhibition 564), he says: "I have seen myself as God, and I can say with certainty that I am He, and I created the heavens." In Kalimat-ul-Fasl, at one point, he says: FAZLEENVLDL, } OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 "The person who believes in Moses but does not believe in Jesus, or who believes in Jesus but does not believe in Muhammad, or who believes in Muhammad but does not believe in the Promised Messiah, is certainly not only a Kafir but is also outside the pale of Islam." The defendant and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad both presented a completely different concept about Jesus, which is completely contrary to the accepted beliefs of Muslims and contradicts the teachings of the Holy Quran. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says that Jesus Christ was crucified. He did not die. He came alive from the cross and went to Kashmir, where he died a natural death. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says that the completion of the second mission of Jesus will not be in such a way that he will personally come into the world, but his soul will enter the body of another person, and this second form of Jesus is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself. But the Holy Quran says something completely different about this. In Surah Az-Zukhruf, Allah Almighty says: Translation: And when the son of Mary is presented as an example, people laugh and say, "Is this better than our gods?" They do not object for any reason or argument, but do so only out of malice, but they are quarrelsome. He is nothing more than a servant on whom We have sent down Our mercy. And raised it. For the children of Israel (example). If We will, We will bring forth from you angels who will dwell in your place on earth, and that is a sign of the Hour (Resurrection). So do not doubt it. And obey me. This is a straight path (43-57-61). In Al-Imran, Allah Almighty says: Translation: O Jesus, I will fulfill your life and raise you to myself and purify you from the disbelievers and keep those who follow you above the deniers until the Day of Resurrection. QADIANI ISSUE – GENERAL DISCUSSION 2323 Then I will come to you again. Then I will decide among you in this matter in which you were arguing." In Surah An-Nisa, Allah Almighty states: Translation: And for their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but it was made to appear to them. And those who dispute over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. (4:157,158) The above makes it clear that there are not only philosophical differences between Ahmadis and Muslims. AIR 1923 Madras A has been presented to me by the learned counsel for the parties. In which the differences between Ahmadis and non-Ahmadis have been discussed, with full respect for the legal authority, I dare to say that there are not only fundamental ideological differences between Ahmadis and non-Ahmadis, but also differences in their belief and proclamation of prophethood. Also, the revelation from Allah Almighty, abrogating the verses of the Holy Quran, are sufficient to declare a person an apostate in my opinion. A review of the beliefs of the defendant and Ghulam Ahmad reveals that they have deliberately tried to mislead others, and for this purpose, on the one hand, they have resorted to slander, and on the other hand, they have tried with great skill to influence the illiterate and less educated people. In the eyes of Islam, this is a great sin. His Lordship Mr. Justice Dalal has expressed his views in the case of Kali Charan Sharma vs. Emperor: In this case, I am dealing with matters not only as a learned judge of a High Court but also as an ordinary citizen of a town in India. 2324 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 I see, I put myself in the place of a Muslim who respects the honor of his Prophet, and then I think about what my feelings would be about a Hindu who mocks that Prophet, and he does this not because he has become eccentric, but because he is influenced by a propaganda started by people who are not Muslims. In such a situation, as an ordinary person, I will show the same hatred that is specific to the author's class. (AIR 1927 ALL 654 As I have explained before, the defendant has placed himself, God forbid, in the ranks of the Prophets, and his eulogist Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has also announced that he is a Prophet, a Nabi, and a Rasool. Furthermore, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has used indecent language against the grandmothers and great-grandmothers of Jesus, and not only that, but has also said insulting things about the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his companions. In this regard, in addition to referring to the above-mentioned so-called revelations of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, his writings in Malfoozat-e-Ahmadiyya can be presented as evidence. There can be no greater insult to the Holy Prophet than that a person like Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, or the defendant, or anyone else, dares to stand in the ranks of the Prophets. No Muslim can tolerate such a claim by any person, nor can any support for such a claim be brought from the Quran and Hadith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has deliberately attributed verses of the Holy Quran to himself and given them self-made meanings so that he can mislead others, and this is such a serious misrepresentation to mislead the unaware and ignorant people, which has been deliberately maintained and which is a major sin in the eyes of Islam. The Ahmadis have claimed in Al-Fadl of July 22, 1922, that: QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2325 Anyone can reach a high position, even, God forbid, surpass Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. In Al-Fadl of June 12, 1945, the Ahmadis also claimed that whoever pledged allegiance to me reached the same status as the Companions of the Messenger. In Malfuzat Ahmadiyya, it is stated in one place that: "A living Ali is present among you, and you are abandoning him to seek a dead Ali." Furthermore, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad instructed his followers not to marry their daughters to non-Ahmadis because these people are infidels. Sheikh-ul-Islam Hazrat Taqi al-Din said: "The one who fears God cannot declare a person who believes in the Kalima to be an infidel. Such a person is rejected forever and is not allowed to marry a Muslim woman." (Al-Tabaqat al-Ghaliyyah) Using inappropriate language about the Prophets is enough to indicate a tendency towards apostasy (106 PR 1891). In the early days of the formation of Muslim law, apostasy was a major sin punishable by death. Tahtawi says on page 84 of Volume II: If either the husband or wife commits apostasy, their marriage, which was an Islamic marriage, will be immediately annulled, and they must separate from each other. But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, as I have stated before, contrary to the teachings of Islam, instructs his followers not to marry their daughters to non-Ahmadis because they are infidels. 2326 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Allama Iqbal's Advice This reveals that Ahmadis are followers of a separate religion from Muslims, and Allama Iqbal gave absolutely correct advice to the then Government of India that this (class) (Ahmadis) should be considered completely different from Muslims, and if they were given separate status, Muslims would treat them with the same tolerance as they show to followers of other religions. There is no doubt that Ahmadis have the right to live as Ahmadis. In the Charter of Medina, which can be called the Magna Carta of Islamic policy, the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed non-Muslims to live according to their religious teachings as they wished, and no coercion was ever allowed in this regard. But the right to live as a separate class does not allow Ahmadis to interfere in the personal law of Muslims and force them to recognize Ahmadis as a sect of Islam only because they have labeled themselves Ahmadi Muslims. The concept of Ummah Prophet: Belief in the so-called prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed or the defendant is an open derogation of the prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH). Which has been clarified by God Almighty in the Holy Quran and by the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) in the hadiths, the defendant and Mirza Ghulam Ahmed have presented the concept of Ummah Nabi or Rasool or Zilli and Baruzi Nabi, which is not found in the Quran and Hadith, nor is the concept of the defendant and Mirza Ghulam Ahmed supported by any other means, the concept of Ummah Nabi is un-Islamic and it is a fabricated work of Mirza Ghulam and the defendant, there is no such thing anywhere in the Quran or Hadith, which shows that Islam believes in Ummah Nabi. The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has closed this chapter forever and In the presence of the tradition of the Messenger, no one can deny that after Hazrat Muhammad, no prophet of any kind will come. It is certainly the belief of Islam that Hazrat Isa will come to the world once again, but he will appear as a follower of Hazrat Muhammad. Jesus Christ will not create any new creation, but he will follow the Sharia of Muhammad. I have been given a reference to the Hadith of the Holy Prophet in which the Holy Prophet said that if there was to be a prophet after me, it would be Umar bin Khattab. This Hadith of the Holy Prophet and other Ahadith clearly show that there will be no prophet of any kind after Hazrat Muhammad. Therefore, the concept of an Ummah prophet or a shadow and reflection prophet presented by the defendant and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is completely un-Islamic and contrary to the teachings of the Quran and Hadith, as well as contradictory to the consensus of Muslims. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim of being a reflection prophet has been discussed in detail by Allama Iqbal and he has termed it as the belief of the Magi. Allama's writing will help us understand the reality of the concept of a reflection prophet. Therefore, I would like to include the relevant part of this discussion in the decision. Allama Iqbal's view on Ahmadiyyat I have explained elsewhere the cultural value of the concept of the end of prophethood. Its meaning is quite simple. After Muhammad, who showed the path of freedom by giving his followers a law that emerges from the depths of human conscience, no spiritual allegiance should be given to any other human being. From a theological point of view, this theory can be expressed as the collective and political organization that is called Islam is complete and eternal. After Muhammad, there is no possibility of any revelation that would accuse denial of blasphemy. Whoever claims such a revelation betrays Islam. The Qadianis believe that the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement possessed such a revelation, therefore… They declare the entire Muslim world as infidels. The very argument of High Ahmadis, which might have been appropriate for medieval theologians, is that if another prophet cannot be born, then the spirituality of the Prophet of Islam will remain incomplete. To prove their claim that the spirituality of the Prophet of Islam had prophetic power, they present their own prophethood, but if you ask them again whether the spirituality of Muhammad ﷺ has the ability to produce more than one prophet, the answer is no. This idea is equivalent to saying that Muhammad is not the last prophet; I am the last prophet. Instead of understanding what cultural value the Islamic concept of the finality of prophethood holds in the history of mankind in general and in the history of Asia in particular, High Ahmadis believe that the concept of the finality of prophethood, in the sense that no follower of Muhammad ﷺ can attain the status of prophethood, presents the prophethood of Muhammad ﷺ itself as incomplete. When I study the psychology of the founder of Ahmadiyya in the light of his claim to prophethood, it becomes clear that in his claim to prophethood, he denies the final prophet hood of the Prophet of Islam by limiting the creative power of the Prophet of Islam to the birth of only one prophet, that is, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement. In this way, this new prophet quietly takes possession of the final prophet hood of his spiritual ancestor. He claims that I am the manifestation of the Prophet of Islam; he wants to prove from this that being the manifestation of the Prophet of Islam, his being the Seal of the Prophets is actually the Seal of the Prophets of Muhammad ﷺ. This point does not reject the final prophet hood of the Prophet of Islam. By declaring his final prophet hood to be similar to the final prophet hood of the Prophet of Islam, the founder of Ahmadiyya has ignored the spiritual meaning of the final prophet hood. In any case, it is obvious that the word manifestation, even in the sense of complete similarity, does not help him because a manifestation is always separate from the thing of which it is a manifestation. Identity is found between the manifestation and its object only in the sense of incarnation. So, if we mean similarity of spiritual attributes by manifestation, then this argument remains ineffective. If, on the contrary, in the Hebrew sense of this word If the essence of the thing is taken as intended, then this argument appears acceptable, but the originator of this idea appears in the guise of a Magian. Harf-e-Iqbal, authored by Latif Ahmed Sherwani, pages (13 to 137.4-140) From the above discussion, it is clear that in Islam there is no concept of an Umati Prophet or Zilli and Broozi Prophet, as I have mentioned that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has instructed his followers not to marry their daughters to non-Ahmadis, nor to offer funeral prayers for them. In this way, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, deviating from the Sharia of Muhammad, has formulated a new Sharia for his followers. His concept about the Messiah is also not Islamic. According to the correct Islamic concept of the Messiah, he will descend from the sky. According to the Hadith of the Messenger, when the Messiah reappears, he will not be reborn. Thus, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim in this regard also proves to be false. His theory about Jihad is also completely different from the belief of Muslims. According to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the command of Jihad has now been abrogated, and the meaning of accepting him as the Mahdi and the Messiah is that Jihad is negated. His theory is contrary to and inconsistent with the 22nd Surah of the Holy Quran, verses 39, 40, and the second Surah, verses 192, 194, the sixtieth Surah, verse 8, the fourth Surah, verses 74, 75, the ninth Surah, verse 5, and Surah 25, verse 52. In view of the above matters, I do not hesitate to declare that the defendant and his eulogist Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are false claimants of prophethood. His claims about receiving revelations from Allah Almighty are also false and contrary to the unanimous belief of Muslims that after the Holy Prophet , the series of divine revelation has ended. Ma Allah There is also consensus among Muslims on this matter that Hazrat Muhammad ﷺ is the last prophet and no other prophet will come after him, and if anyone believes otherwise, then he is clearly an infidel and an apostate. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has also twisted and misrepresented the holy verses of the Holy Quran, and in this way, he has tried to mislead the ignorant and uninformed people. He has declared Jihad as abrogated and has distorted the Sharia of Muhammad. Therefore, the defendant, who has himself declared his prophethood, as well as Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his belief in his prophethood, can be declared non-Muslim and apostate without any hesitation. After discussing the beliefs of both parties, I would like to say something about the concept of marriage, which is the second important point in the issue under discussion. After that, I will discuss the justification of marriage in light of my conclusions about the beliefs of the defendant. Islam is not just a religion but a way of life, and in Islam, marriage is a moral relationship. According to the definition of marriage given by Ameer Ali, it is an institution that has been established for the protection of society, and its purpose is to protect humankind from immorality and indecency. Marriage is a lifelong commitment, the most important characteristic of which is not the legal or permissible allowance of sexual intercourse, but rather a partnership in which two human beings live together in sorrow, happiness, and joy, and provide each other with comfort and encouragement. This union is a source of mercy for the parties through changing circumstances. There is no doubt that the concept of sexual intercourse is also involved in this partnership or union, which clarifies the importance of the physical closeness of the parties, but in this regard, mutual affection, unity, and companionship are also no less important. Shakespeare said in Hamlet that husband and wife are one soul in two bodies. Similarly, Aristotle said somewhere that to beat one's wife is to deny that she is your wife. All these things mean the same thing, and that the relationship between husband and wife is a relationship of shared virtue. In the Holy Quran, marriage is mentioned with the terms affection, mercy, and tranquility. In the Bible QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2331 It has come in one place that she is a part of my bone and a piece of my flesh, in short, unity has been emphasized everywhere. Julius Caesar's dialogue with Portia alongside Lord Brutus beautifully elucidates the difference between a wife and a mistress, and then this sentence of an English Crown Prince also holds historical significance when he was asked to marry a Roman Catholic princess, he said that two religions cannot come together in one bed." The Holy Prophet (PBUH) said: Choose a suitable woman (in terms of character) for your body and marry your equals and give your daughters in marriage to them (Ibn Majah 46:9). This means that compatibility plays a very important role in marriage. Differences in ideologies or a wide gap in beliefs or the dissimilarity of the words and deeds of the parties can darken their future. After the bond of intimacy between husband and wife is broken, their living together negates the basic concept of marriage. And instead of being a messenger of joy and happiness, this bond becomes a sample of hell, and when the parties keep quarreling with each other and start hating each other, then everything has no more status than lies and deceit. This situation is not only individually unbearable but also socially destructive. The mysteries of gender are fully satisfied only when there is a spiritual harmony between the parties along with the physical relationship, if religion really has an impact on the lives of the parties. Then any disagreement about this will affect their lives more than birth, race, language or basic status or anything else. In Surah Al-Baqarah, Allah Almighty says: Translation: And do not marry disbelieving women until they believe, and a Muslim woman (even if she is) a slave is far better than a disbelieving woman, even if she pleases you. 2332 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug. 1974 "...and do not give women in marriage to disbelieving men until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a disbeliever, even though he pleases you." (Al-Baqarah: Verse 221). From the above discussion, it has become clear that the marriage between the parties in the case under consideration is absolutely undesirable in Islam and is completely contrary to the teachings of the Holy Quran and Hadith, because the parties not only hold different ideologies but also their beliefs are completely different from each other and this is a deadly blow to this relationship, as I have already clarified. In Islam, numerous restrictions have been imposed on a Muslim regarding marriage with the opposite gender and under no circumstances can a Muslim woman validly marry a non-Muslim man, including Christians, Jews or idolaters, and the marriage of a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man is ineffective in the eyes of Islam. In these circumstances, I declare that the marriage between the parties to this case is not an Islamic marriage, but it is the marriage of a seventeen-year-old Muslim girl with a sixty-year-old non-Muslim (apostate). Therefore, this marriage is illegal and ineffective. In view of the above, issues No. 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 are dropped; there is no need to consider them. The result of the above discussion is that the marriage of the plaintiff, who is a Muslim woman, with the defendant, who himself admitted to being a Qadiani at the time of the marriage and thus was declared a non-Muslim, is ineffective and has no legal status. According to Islamic teachings, the plaintiff is not the wife of the defendant. The plaintiff's application for annulment of marriage is decided in her favor and the defendant is prohibited from declaring the plaintiff as his wife. The plaintiff is entitled to recover the expenses of this case. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2333 Before the conclusion of the verdict, I consider it necessary to thank the learned counsel for the plaintiff, who helped me immensely through numerous books. Some of these books are as follows: 1. Haqiqatul Wahi, 2. Izala-e-Auham, 3. Malfuzat-e-Ahmadiyya, 4. Mi'yar-ul-Akhyar, 5. Aina-e-Kamalat, 6. Tazkira-e-Shahadatain, 7. Masla-e-Khatm-e-Nabuwat by Maulana Muhammad-ul-Haq, 8. Masla-e-Nabuwat by Maulana Maududi, 9. Qadiani Issue by Maulana Maududi, 10. Khatm-e-Nabuwat by Maulana Sanaullah, 11. Khatim-un-Nabiyeen by Hakim Abdul Latif, 12. Sahifa-e-Taqdeer by Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, 13. Mirzait Adalat ke Kathere Mein, authored by Janbaz Mirza, 14. Sheikh Nikah Mirzaiyan, 15. Judgment issued by Mr. Muhammad Akbar, District Judge Bahawalnagar, 16. Judgment issued by Additional District Judge Campbellpur, 17. Translation of the Holy Quran by Mr. Pickthall, 18. Translations of the works of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad by Abdullah Alauddin. This decision was read out in open court on July 13 by Mr. Qaiser Ahmed Humaidi, successor to Sheikh Muhammad Rafiq Garija, who has been appointed Civil and Family Court Judge in Jami'n Abad. It is surprising that a gleaner of crumbs from Ansar Becomes the Mahdi, the Awaited One, through begging. Demand Zafar Ali Khan We request the esteemed President of the country, His Excellency Agha Muhammad Yahya Khan Sahib, to recognize the importance and greatness of the issue of Khatm-e-Nabuwat and, through an ordinance, declare the Mirzais a non-Muslim minority. This is the decision of Pakistan's renowned and just judiciary, the fatwa of scholars from every school of thought in the Islamic world, the long-standing unanimous demand of the Muslim Ummah, and the call of the sacred blood of the martyrs of Khatm-e-Nabuwat. Majlis Tahaffuz Khatm-e-Nabuwat Pakistan Multan 2334 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Appendix No. 4 Maulana Syed Ataullah Shah Bukhari Sahib of Historical Case Verdict (Chaudhry Afzal Haq M.L.A. General Secretary Department of Propagation, Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam (Hind), Lahore) Quantity Kutba Bashir Katib Daftar Risala Ada Ka Lahore) Price QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Historic Decision of Session Judge Gurdaspur on Maulana Syed Ataullah Shah Bukhari's Appeal A Scholarly Commentary by the Honorable Judge on the Misdeeds of Qadianism A Tale of Mirza of Qadian's Immoral Character and His Followers' Support Government's Failure to Fulfill Its Duty The Urdu translation of the judgment issued in English by Mr. Khosla, Sessions Judge, Gurdaspur, on Maulana Syed Ataullah Shah Bukhari's historical case, is being published: The appellant, Syed Ataullah Shah Bukhari, has been convicted under Section 153-A of the Indian Penal Code and sentenced to six months of rigorous imprisonment for the speech he delivered on the occasion of the Tabligh Conference Qadian on October 21, 1934. Mirza and Mirzaism Before considering the charge against the appellant, it seems necessary to state some facts and events related to the matters under discussion. About fifty years ago, a resident of Qadian, Ghulam Ahmad, claimed before the world that he was the promised Messiah. With this announcement, he also assumed the role of Archbishop and founded a new sect. Although its members claimed to be Muslims, some of their beliefs and principles were completely different from common Islamic beliefs. People who joined this sect are called Qadiani, Mirzai, or Ahmadi, and their distinguishing feature is that they believe in the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Mirzai sect. 2336 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 History of Qadianism Historically, this movement began to grow, and the number of its followers reached a few thousand. It was necessary for Muslims to oppose it. Therefore, the majority of Muslims strongly opposed Mirza's loud claims, especially his claims of religious division, and Mirza accused those people of disbelief, and in response, those people also adopted a harsh tone. But those living in the Qadiani fort were not affected by this external criticism and remained happily entrenched in their stronghold, Qadian. Qadianis' Obstinacy and Arrogance The Qadianis were relatively safe. This situation created a rebellious pride in them. They started using tactics to convince others of their arguments and to develop their community, which would be called undesirable. Those who refused to join the Qadiani community were threatened with social boycott, expulsion from Qadian, and sometimes even more heinous troubles, creating an atmosphere of terror. Sometimes, they even put these threats into practice in an effort to strengthen their community. A corps of volunteers was organized in Qadian, and the purpose of their training was probably to create the power to raise the slogan "Whose is the kingdom today?" in Qadian. They also took judicial powers into their own hands. They heard civil and criminal cases, issued decrees in civil cases, and enforced them. Several people were expelled from Qadian. The story does not end here, but the Qadianis have been openly accused of destroying houses, burning them, and even committing murder. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION. Committed. With the thought that these allegations should not be considered a result of the Ahrar's imagination. I would like to mention a few examples that are recorded in the case file: Punishment of Expulsion At least two individuals were punished with expulsion from Qadian because their beliefs differed from Mirza's beliefs. Those individuals are Habib-ur-Rehman, defense witness number 28, and Mr. Ismail. There is a letter in the file (D.Z. 33) that is written in the hand of the current Mirza, which contains the order that Habib-ur-Rehman (witness number 28) is not allowed to come to Qadian. Mirza Bashir-ud-Din, defense witness number 37, has admitted to this letter. The expulsion of Ismail and the prohibition of his entry have been admitted by defense witness number 20. Several other witnesses have narrated strange and wonderful stories of (Qadianis') violence and oppression. Bhagat Singh, a defense witness, stated that the Qadianis attacked him. A person named Gharib Shah was beaten by the Qadianis, but when he wanted to file a complaint in court, no one came forward to testify for him. Difficulties of cases decided by Qadiani judges have been presented (which are included in this file). Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood has admitted that judicial powers are exercised in Qadian, and Mir's court is the final court of appeal. Court decrees are enforced, and one incident shows that a house was sold in the execution of a decree. The Qadianis themselves make the stamps that are affixed to the applications and petitions that are filed in the Qadiani courts. Witness for the Defense No. 40, Mirza Sharif Ahmed, testified to the existence of a volunteer corps in Qadian. 2338 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 The Oppression of Abdul Karim and the Murder of Muhammad Hussain The most serious case is that of Abdul Karim (Editor Mubalala), whose story is a tale of woe. This person joined the followers of Mirza and went to live in Qadian. There, doubts arose in his heart regarding the truthfulness of (Mirzism). And he repented from Mirzism. After this, persecution and oppression started on him. He started a newspaper called "Mubahala" to comment and criticize Qadiani beliefs. Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood, in a speech recorded in the document D. Z. (Al-Fadl dated April 1, 1930), predicted the death of those who published "Mubahala." In this speech, there was also mention of people who are ready to commit murder for the sake of religion. Soon after this speech, Abdul Karim was attacked, but he survived. A person named Muhammad Hussain, who was his assistant and also his guarantor in a criminal case against Abdul Karim, was attacked and murdered. The murderer was tried and sentenced to death. The Status of Muhammad Hussain's Murderer in the Eyes of the Mirzais The execution order was carried out. After that, the corpse of the murderer was brought to Qadian and buried in the "Bahishti Maqbara" (heavenly graveyard) with great honor and respect. The Mirzai newspaper "Al-Fadl" praised the murderer. The act of murder was applauded, and it was even written that the murderer was not a criminal. Before the execution, his soul was freed from the cage of his body, and in this way, he was saved from the humiliating punishment of hanging. The Just God deemed it appropriate to take his life before the execution. The Falsehood of Mirza Mahmood In court, Mirza Mahmood narrated a completely different story about this, saying that the murderer of Muhammad Hussain was honored because he had expressed remorse and regret for his crime. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2339 And in this way, he was cleansed of sin, but document D.Z. 40 refutes this, which reveals the inner state of Mirza: Contempt of High Court I would also like to say here that the content of this document also implies contempt of the Lahore High Court. Murder of Muhammad Amin Muhammad Amin was a Mirzaite and a preacher of the Mirzaite community. He was sent to Bukhara to preach religion, but for some reason, he was later dismissed from this service. He died from a blow with an ax, which Chaudhry Fateh Muhammad, witness for the defense No. 1, inflicted. The lower court has taken a cursory look at this matter, but it requires more careful attention. Mirza's wrath had descended upon Muhammad Amin, and therefore he was no longer respected in the eyes of the Mirzaites. Whatever the facts of his death, there is no doubt that Muhammad Amin was subjected to violence and killed with a blow from an ax. The police were informed of the incident, but no action was taken. It is pointless to emphasize that the murderer struck Muhammad Amin with an ax in self-defense, and it is up to the court hearing the murder case to decide. Chaudhry Fateh Muhammad's admission in court makes it surprisingly clear that he killed Muhammad Amin, but the police could do nothing about it. The reason given for this is that the power of the Mirzaites had increased to such an extent that no witness dared to come forward and tell the truth. We also have the incident of Abdul Karim's house before us. After Abdul Karim was expelled from Qadian, his house was set on fire, and an attempt was made to demolish it in a semi-legal manner by obtaining an order from the Small Town Committee of Qadian. 2340 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 The situation of Qadian and Mirza's abusive language These sad events are a clear testimony to the fact that respect for the law in Qadian had completely disappeared. Incidents of arson and murder were happening. Mirza subjected millions of Muslims who did not share his beliefs to severe abuse. His writings are a unique display of the morals of an archbishop, who was not only a claimant to prophethood but also claimed to be God's chosen man and the second Messiah: The government was paralyzed It seems that the authorities were paralyzed to an extraordinary extent (compared to Qadianism). No voice was ever raised against Mirza's orders in religious and worldly matters. Complaints were lodged with local officials several times, but they were unable to prevent it. There are other complaints on file as well, but it is unnecessary to refer to their content here. In connection with this case, it is sufficient to state that very clear allegations were made about the prevalence of tyranny in Qadian, but it seems that no attention was paid at all: Purpose of the Tabligh Conference In order to prevent these actions and to instill a spirit of life in the Muslims, the Tabligh Conference was held. The Qadianis viewed its convocation with disapproval and made every effort to stop it. A piece of land belonging to a person named Esher Singh was acquired for the holding of this conference. The Qadianis occupied it and erected a wall, and in this way, the Ahrar were deprived of even the piece of land that they could get in Qadian. They were forced to hold their meeting one mile away from Qadian. The erection of the wall is indicative of the fact that at that time QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2341 How much tension was there in the relations between the parties? And to what extent had the Qadianis' audacity reached? They considered themselves completely safe from the legal consequences of their encroachment. Maulana Syed Ataullah Shah Bukhari's magnetic attraction In any case, the conference was held. He was called from Appellant to preside over it. He is a high-ranking orator. And there is a magnetic attraction in his speech. Therefore, he gave an enthusiastic sermon in this meeting. His speech lasted for several hours. It is said that the audience was completely mesmerized during the speech. The Appellant expressed his views rather clearly in this speech. And he made no attempt to hide the feelings of hatred that were surging in his heart against Mirza and his followers. There was objection in the newspapers to the speech. The matter was presented to the Government of Punjab. Which allowed the trial against Ataullah Shah Bukhari: Objection to the speech In connection with the charge against the Appellant, seven excerpts from this speech are recorded. Which have been found objectionable. Those excerpts are as follows: (1) The Pharaonic throne is being overturned. God willing, this throne will not remain. (2) He is the son of the Prophet. I am the grandson of the Prophet. He comes, you all sit quietly. He should discuss with me in Urdu, Punjabi, Persian, in every matter. This dispute should end today. He should come out of the veil. Raise the mask. Wrestle. See the essence of Maula Ali. He should come in every color. He should come sitting in a car, I will come barefoot. He should come wearing silk, I [will wear] Gandhi Ji's Khaddar Sharif. He [should be a] man of the age. 2342 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 130th Aug., 1974 Either they should come after eating Tiyan and Plummer's tank wine according to their father's tradition, and I should come after eating barley bread according to my grandfather's tradition. (3) How can they compete with us? They are the tail-wagging dogs of Britain. They flatter and clean the boots of Britain. I don't say this with arrogance. But I swear by God. Leave me alone. Then see what Bashir's hands do. What can I do, the word "Tabligh" has put us in trouble. This gathering is not a political gathering. And O Mirzais! If the reins were loose. I say, come to your senses even now. Your power is not even as much as the foam of urine. (4) Those who fail in the fifth grade become prophets. There is an example in India. Whoever is a failure becomes a prophet. (5) And you have never collided with the flock of the Messiah. Which you have now encountered. This is Majlis-e-Ahrar. It will tear you to pieces. (1) O Mirzais, look at the map of your prophethood. If you have claimed prophethood, then maintain the dignity of prophethood. (7) If you had claimed prophethood, then you would not have become the dogs of the British. The appellant stated in the subordinate court that his speech was not properly recorded. Regarding sentence number, he explicitly stated that it did not come out of his mouth. And although he admitted that the content of the remaining sentences was mine. But at the same time he said. That the passage is mixed up. The subordinate court has ruled. That the report of one sentence is incorrect. And in connection with this, the appellant cannot be convicted. Therefore, the conviction of the appellant depends on the other six sentences. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2343 The appellant's lawyer admitted that paragraphs 6, 41, and 7 were said by the appellant. The matter for decision before me is whether these six sentences said by the appellant are punishable under 153A, and what offense the appellant has committed by saying these words. Court's Reasoning I have previously described in detail the circumstances under which the Tabligh Conference was held. The appellant has tried to show, based on many written testimonies, that his purpose was nothing more than to make legitimate and justified criticism of the oppression of Mirza and his followers. He states that the purpose of his speech was to awaken sleeping Muslims and expose the disgraceful acts of the Mirzais. He has repeatedly shed light on the oppression and violence of Mirza (Mahmud) in his speech and demanded that the grievances of those Muslims who are victims of calamities for denying Mirza's prophethood and not recognizing his fabricated authority be redressed. I have considered the appellant's speech in light of the conditions in Qadian. I have been told that this speech was a message of peace from the Muslims. But a cursory reading of this speech leads every reasonable person to the conclusion that, instead of a declaration of peace, it is an invitation to battle. It is possible that the appellant tried to stay within the bounds of the law, but in the fervor of eloquence and power, he went beyond these restrictive limits and said things that could have no other effect than to create a feeling of hatred towards the Mirzais in the hearts of the listeners. Like Mark Antony of Rome, the appellant declared that he did not want to provoke conflict with the Ahmadis. But this message of peace is full of such abuses, the purpose of which can only be to create hatred against the Ahmadis in the hearts of the listeners. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Legitimate Limits of Criticism There is no doubt that some parts of the appellant's speech contain legitimate and unbiased criticism of Mirza's actions. The incident of coercing Ghareeb Shah, the incidents of murder of Muhammad Hussain and Muhammad Amin, and some other incidents of Mirza's oppression and violence that have been referenced are such that every devout Muslim has the right to criticize. Also, during this speech, there was mention of those insulting words that Qadianis use regarding the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad (peace be upon him), and which cause injury to the feelings of Muslims. Mirzais and Muslims In the eyes of Muslims, Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets. But the belief of Mirzais is that several prophets can be sent in the likeness of Muhammad (peace be upon him), and they can all receive related revelations. Also, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet and the second Messiah. To this extent, the appellant's speech is outside the bounds of the law. But when he resorts to abuse and vitriol, and calls Mirzais by such names that no one can bear to hear, then he crosses the legitimate limits. And whether he said these things in the heat of the moment or deliberately, the law cannot ignore them. Effects of the Speech The appellant should have known that the majority of his audience were ignorant villagers. Also, that this type of speech would create feelings of hatred and animosity in their hearts. Events show that the speech had such an effect on the audience. And, influenced by the speaker's tongue, they showed enthusiasm on several occasions. There is no need to explain why the audience did not take any violent action against the Mirzais at that time. Although the relations between the two sides had not been good for a long time, this speech fanned the flames that were lying dormant in the ashes. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 4343 Objectionable Nature of Speech Of the seven sentences deemed objectionable in the charge sheet, the third and the seventh are the most objectionable. In these, the appellant called the Mirzais puppets of Britain. In my opinion, the other parts are not punishable under Section 53A of the Indian Penal Code. The first part, i.e., "Pharaoh's throne is being overturned," is not objectionable in my view. The second part relates to Mirza's diet and sustenance. In this regard, it is worth mentioning that Mirza the First wrote a letter to one of his disciples in which all these details of his diet were mentioned. These letters have been printed in book form, and a printed copy of their collection is also included in this file. Wine and Mirza It appears that Mirza used a tonic. Which was called Plomer's wine. On one occasion, he wrote to one of his disciples to buy Plomer's wine from Lahore and send it to him. Then there is mention of Yaquuti in other letters. Mirza Mahmood himself has confessed that his father once used Plomer's wine as medicine. Therefore, in my opinion, this part is also not objectionable. The fourth part mentions Mirza Ghulam Ahmad failing his exam. In the sixth part, Mirza is accused of flattery and sycophancy. It is also said that flattery and sycophancy are against the dignity of a prophet. Court's Commentary In my opinion, no part of the speech is objectionable except for the third and seventh parts. This does not mean that only those parts of the appellant's entire speech are objectionable. In the speech 2346 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug. 1974 It was evident that the appellant wanted to expose the heinous acts of the Mirzais, and he also wanted to incite hatred against them in the hearts of Muslims. The fact that the listeners, influenced by his speech, might resort to disturbing the peace, could mitigate his crime. I do not dispute that the appellant was justified in criticizing the Mirzais. However, in exercising this right, he exceeded the permissible limits and became liable to face the legal consequences of the speech. It is easy to praise the appellant's action. But in circumstances where emotions are already agitated and inflamed, making such a speech is tantamount to pouring oil on the fire. And although the appellant has only committed a technical offense, respect for the universality of the law is essential. Decision After thoroughly examining all aspects of the case and assessing the impact of the appellant's speech on the audience, I have come to the conclusion that the appellant has committed an offense under Section 153 of the Penal Code and that his sentence should stand. However, when assessing the severity or leniency of the sentence, it is also necessary to consider the events that took place in Qadian. Also, it is important not to ignore that Mirza himself inflamed the feelings of Muslims by calling them infidels and their women bitches. My opinion is that the appellant's crime was merely technical. Therefore, I reduce his sentence to simple imprisonment until the court adjourns. Signed Gurdaspur R جون، ۳۵ G. D. Khosla Session Judge QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2347 Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Maulana Abdul Haq Sahib! Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Sir, I would like to submit one thing, that this statement is from 37 members of the National Assembly, and until now we have the signatures of 39 members. These signatures are with us. And this has been done above all parties. Mr. Chairman: We will do it above all parties. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: If any member wants to sign this resolution, they can do so. Mr. Chairman: If you want to give it to them, give it. Maulana Abdul Hakeem Sahib! You start. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Let the signatures be done. Mr. Chairman: You start. Maulana Abdul Haleem: Talks are going on. Mr. Chairman: Malik Akhtar! Don't talk. Maulana, start. 7th is coming too close. You have brought books of 250 pages. If you read it, you have to sit still. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Sir! Mr. Chairman: Maulana, let them finish first, then this. 2348 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Maulana Abdul Haleem Bismillah Hir-Rahman Nir-Rahim. Alhamdulillah Wahdahu Wassalato Wassalamu Ala Man La Nabia Ba'dah! Mirzais are definitely infidels and a non-Muslim minority. The National Assembly has the right to decide. Nasir Ahmad Sahib of Rabwah, the Khalifa of the Qadianis, gave a statement on July 22, 1974, along with his party, before the committee of the National Assembly of Pakistan (which consists of all members of the National Assembly). He completed this statement in two days. There are a few headings to this statement: The first heading is a look at the recent resolutions of the House. Under this, the Qadiani Khalifa has made a mistake in mentioning only two resolutions. It is possible that he was only given such information. But in every committee, Hazrat Maulana Abdul Hakeem Sahib MNA and Maulana Abdul Haq Sahib MNA Balochistani have also presented a bill. The Khalifa of Rabwah has raised a fundamental question whether any assembly has the right to take away from any person the fundamental right to associate himself with any religion he wishes. Or, interfering in religious matters, to decide what is the religion of any group or individual? On behalf of the Rabwah community, it was said that we do not accept both of these things. In this regard, they have cited the Charter of the United Nations, associations, and similarly, Article No. 20 of the Pakistani Constitution. صل Haza Please see at the end of the book. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2349 Reply to Mirzais (1) This is the first and fundamental difference between Mirzais and Muslims. Muslims want to make their decisions only in the light of the Quran and Sharia. And consider it the basis of the law of life. But the Mirzais look to the United Nations. Sometimes to global organizations and sometimes to man-made Constitution and law, we only look at religion and its decisions in all matters: I am neither night nor night worshiper, that I should speak of dreams. When I am the slave of the sun (Sun of Prophethood), then the source of my words will be the same sun. It is surprising that Mirza Qadiani's claim of prophethood is false. But he and his successors do not even keep the honor of a false claim. The Prophet comes to change the ways of the whole world and wants to make the whole world follow him. Translation: And We did not send any Messenger except that he should be obeyed by the permission of Allah." So we have to see in the light of the Quran and Hadith whether the Mirzais are non-Muslims or not. And no Muslim has any doubt about this issue. It's just a matter of giving it legal shape is. (2) Your eyes have always been away from the Companions, otherwise, instead of looking at the assemblies of the world, Muslims would have looked at the first assembly of Ansar and Muhajirin. Were the consultations of Muhajirin not in the light of Islam? But this is not expected from you that you follow the path of the Companions. Otherwise, the assembly of Ansar and Muhajirin has 2350 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 By snatching the right to be called Muslims from those who deny Zakat and deny the finality of Prophethood, they waged Jihad against them. (3) The Mirza'i Khalifa has severely insulted the members of the Assembly by saying that Muslim members of the Assembly are competent to make religious decisions or not. They should know that they are representatives of millions of Muslims. And Muslims who openly claim that our religion is Islam. Don't these members even know who is a Muslim and who is a non-Muslim? The Mirza'is should know that a disbeliever is one who denies the necessities of religion and the certainties of religion. The discussion of the definition of a Muslim is coming up next. Does any member of the Assembly not know that the five pillars of Islam are obligatory? Does any Muslim not know that besides believing in Tawhid and Risalat, accepting all the prophets, heavenly books, angels, resurrection, destiny, and resurrection from the heart is also part of faith. Can any Muslim doubt that the door of revelation of Prophethood has been closed after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)? Now, neither can anyone be made a prophet directly, nor by following anyone. That is why in the nearly 1400 years of Islamic history, anyone who claimed to be a prophet was never forgiven by the people of Islam. The Mirza'is say that Mirza Ji had become annihilated in the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). That is why he became the same Muhammad and became a prophet (Inna Lillahi wa Inna Ilayhi Raji'un). In any case, all the members of the Assembly understand and have experience of the obvious issues of Islam, but they understand even more than Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib. (2) The Pakistan Assembly has declared Islam as the state religion of Pakistan. Does Nasir Ahmad Sahib want to make us followers of America and England? QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION (5) The Pakistan Assembly has decided that the President and Prime Minister of Pakistan will be Muslim, and they will have to take an oath to believe in Khatm-e-Nabuwwat (Finality of Prophethood) and the requirements of the Quran and Hadith. (Perhaps the Mirzais may have a problem with this too.) (6) If the Assembly has the right to make the constitution, why should it not have the right to amend it? Isn't this in the constitution? (7) It is surprising that a tiny minority is allowed to call the majority of millions as infidels, and the majority has absolutely no right to call these handfuls of newly produced and those who stand for specific purposes as non-Muslims. We have the right to demand our rights inside the Assembly or outside the Assembly. The Pakistani government is the name of the Assembly, and the Assembly is the representative of the people. It is their duty to think about the country's gains and losses. (8) When did we say that you do not have the right to be attributed to any religion? You can surely attribute yourselves to Christianity, Christian, Qadiani, Ahmadi, Mirzai, etc. But when you have this right, why doesn't the 99% majority have the right to be attributed to that pure religion in which it is blasphemy to make anyone a prophet after Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH), and to consider such a believer as separate from themselves? Which means that a tiny minority can say and do whatever they want, and the overwhelming majority should remain deaf and dumb, and not be allowed to speak. (9) You may be attributed to whatever religion you want, but it cannot be that you call seventy crore Muslims as infidels and then occupy positions, plans, and various jobs in the name of the same Muslims. When you do not consider millions of Muslims as Muslims because they do not believe in Mirza Qadiani, and similarly, your un-Islamic beliefs... 2352 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974. If Muslims don't consider you as Muslim due to your own actions, then what is the need to cry now. Now your statement is being fulfilled that you are not from us, and we are not from you. (10) You have heavily criticized the powers of the assembly, but you should know that the assembly is the representative body of the nation. It has to represent the nation. When the nation has a unanimous demand, it becomes the demand of the assembly itself and falls within its duties. (11) You are being sarcastic about the fact that political parties have come to the assembly on political manifestos, but you forget the foundation of Pakistan, what is the meaning of Pakistan? Was Pakistan not formed in the name of Muslim nationhood? Is the foundation of Muslim nationhood not based on religion? And was the dispute between Hazrat Maulana Syed Hussain Ahmad Madani and Allama Iqbal not resolved verbally? And can any Muslim deny that the religion of Islam encompasses beliefs, dealings, worship, and politics? And now the government itself is public and the translator of public thoughts and beliefs. Then why does it not have the right to consider public demands, especially those that are religious, while the official religion itself is Islam. (13) The issue of the Mirzaee community is not under discussion because of riots, but this has been a unanimous issue of Muslims for more than forty years. Everyone knows about the Tehreek-e-Khatam-e-Nabuwwat of 1953. Yes, the riots and the mischievousness of the rioting Mirzaees gave it strength, rather it is possible that the Mirzaees fired these riots and bullets on the peaceful processions of Muslims at the behest of the enemies of the country, so that Pakistan is surrounded by bilateral difficulties, and there are internal riots, and the enemy can achieve its goals. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2333 Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib's Confession During the cross-examination, when Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib said that a person who calls himself a Muslim, no other person or assembly has the right to declare him a non-Muslim. When, in the same context, the esteemed Attorney General questioned him that a person is a Parsi or a Christian, but he wrongly calls himself a Muslim for his own benefit, and seeing his deceit and dishonesty, a case is filed against him in the court, then does the court not have the right, after receiving conclusive evidence, to expose his deceit and declare him a non-Muslim, Parsi, or Christian? After much hesitation, Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib acknowledged the court's right. Thus, Mirza Nasir Ahmad confessed that an authoritative body has the right to declare someone's claim false after the prophethood. Now, after this confession, why doesn't the National Assembly, whose job is to legislate, have the right to expose the false claim of Islam by the Mirzais and save the public from their deceit? Imaginary things You have tried to please yourself by writing imaginary things under the title of fundamental human rights and constitution on page four. But believe me, no government in the world has raised such questions so far, nor is it likely. At most, you have the threat from India. But even there, Muslims are united against them and say the same thing. They say a mouse's sight is only up to a span; it cannot see beyond that. The Mirzais do not know how the Muslims demonstrate unity in the Kaaba. Then how all the Muslim parties in India come together and present their case before the Indian government. Then Lahore QE FAKIS I AN [Sun Aug., 1974 How the leaders of Islam around the world gathered in the recent past and crushed the chests of Mirzais and other enemies of Islam. Threat to Muslims Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has enumerated many disadvantages of declaring Mirzais a non-Muslim minority on page 4, and this is just like crying, otherwise we have to look at the Quran, Hadith, Islam and Sharia. Not what others do, and if Muslims themselves see religious strength and strength, then they too will have to acknowledge our strength. As it was in Khair-ul-Quroon. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has also threatened to deprive Muslims of their civil rights there by mentioning the numerical majority of Christian governments. In fact, in the face of the joint voice of the Tehrik-e-Mirzaiyyat and the nation, they have lost the sense to think and understand. Mirza Ji, who said that we should declare Mirzais as a non-Muslim minority like Hindus, Sikhs and Christians and usurp their civil rights. Has Islam not guaranteed the life, property, honor and dignity of the infidel subjects, but also the freedom of their covenants? We are not doing this with Christians, nor will we do it with Mirzais. Here, the protection of life and property of both old and new Christians is the responsibility of the government. Provided that they remain Dhimmis. If they rebel, then they will be treated as they deserve. A Dangerous Deception A dangerous deception is given at number 6 that if this principle is accepted, then the decisions of the majority of their time regarding all the prophets (peace be upon them) and their communities will have to be accepted. This is an open deception. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib should know that Islam is a comprehensive religion, in which guidance is also available for the time of being conquered or in minority, and the dominance is the majority. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2355 There are also commandments for the time of being. But they have satisfied their passion by traditionally disrespectfully bringing up prophets in between. Now read the above passage again to see if the prophets (peace be upon them) accepted the decisions of the majority of their time, i.e., the non-Muslim majority. If Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib had written this, he would have added another charge of Kufr against himself. But he wrote very cleverly that the decisions of the majority have to be accepted. Mirza Sahib! You accept these decisions, otherwise no Muslim in the world is ready to accept the decisions of the majority against the prophets. And you should know that Darul Nadwa (the assembly of the Quraish in Makkah) made decisions against the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The infidel governments of the time of Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him), Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) and Hazrat Ibrahim (peace be upon him), which were representative of the people according to the customs of that time, made decisions against the prophets. Which they did not accept. And today, being in the majority, should we not reject the un-Islamic issues of the minority? Neither can the decisions of non-Muslim governments be stopped without gaining power. Nor does Islam force us to do so, nor are we responsible to God for the deeds of others. We have to make decisions in the light of Sharia in our own country and within our limits of authority and power. Deception from the Quranic Instruction of 'La Ikraha Fi al-Din' (No compulsion in religion) Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has said only one thing correctly in his entire statement that no one's religion can be forcibly changed. The meaning of the verse is also the same. But he has used his traditional deception here as well, that forcibly declaring a Muslim as a non-Muslim, even when he has a clear understanding of Islam, is a violation of this verse. Here the Holy Verse is also definitive and its meaning is also clear. Tell me, what will we do by making a person a Muslim who has not accepted Islam from the heart, and how will he be a Muslim? This is correct. But when did we say to forcibly convert a Mirzaite to Islam? Stay on your Mirzaism. Continue to fulfill your desires. We will absolutely not force you to convert religions. But to not consider you Muslim, that is our belief and religion. Do you not allow the majority to live by their own beliefs and legally propagate them? It is the job of the National Assembly to consider, before which the first and foremost task is the Sharia law, whether to allow a minority like you to usurp the rights of the majority in the name of Muslims, or, in the light of Islam, considering your own statements and beliefs, to declare you a non-Muslim minority and prevent you from usurping the rights of 99 percent, and to save the nation from the deception that openly violates Islamic principles in matters of marriage, funeral, etc. If you remain steadfast in your infidel religion, we will not coerce you. But allow us, under our principles, to consider the claimants of prophethood and their followers and those who consider him a reformer as non-Muslims. Don't Muslims all over the world consider Mirzais to be outside of Islam? And didn't your Mirza Sahib enjoy this hobby of general excommunication? Then the matter is finished. The only thing is, you want that with two communities existing, we continue to usurp their rights in the name of Muslims, and discord and corruption continue in the country. Then why not end it forever by giving it a legal form? Then you want freedom for yourselves and restrictions for us. We are not ready to call the denier of the physical ascension of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), the life of Jesus, son of Mary, and the finality of prophethood a Muslim. Are you not forcing us to change our beliefs and going against the aforementioned verse of the Holy Quran? Misinterpretation of the Holy Verse The aforementioned verse is also used against the Islamic issue of killing apostates. But this is also wrong. When a person is not a subject of Pakistan, no Pakistani law applies to him. But when he himself becomes a Pakistani and accepts to abide by all the laws here, then... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2357 ...he will be punished for the violation. On the same principle, the punishments for adultery, theft, robbery, murder, rebellion, and apostasy, etc., depend. This is for those who live within Islam, but no outsider can be forced to convert to Islam. This is the meaning of the Holy Verse. The Order Not to Call the One Who Greets a Believer Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has also taken undue advantage of this verse of the Quran. But we will discuss this in the definition of a Muslim (God willing). Nasir Ahmad Sahib has also quoted the hadith of Hazrat Usama that in the war, a person recited the Kalma. He then killed him. On this, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) expressed displeasure. Light will also be shed on this at the time of the definition of a Muslim. (God willing) The Hadith of the Seventy-Three Sects Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has presented a point of merit that it is in the hadith that you said: "This Ummah will soon be divided into seventy-three sects. All the sects will be in the fire except one." Here, Mirza Ji has omitted the next words, but later, from Maududi Sahib's Tarjuman-ul-Quran, January 1945, he has quoted the remaining words at the end. "The Companions asked, 'Who is that saved sect, O Messenger of Allah?' He said, 'The one who is on my way and the way of my companions.'" On the page, Mirza Sahib has tried to take advantage of Maududi Sahib's writing. He writes with reference to Maududi Sahib, "In this hadith, two signs of the Jamaat are prominent..." 2358 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 have been stated. One is that it will be according to the way of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions. Secondly, it will be in a very small minority. Mirza Nasir Sahib's point of entitlement is that, contrary to the aforementioned command of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), the resolution presented by the opposition scholars shows that the better sects of the Muslim Ummah are destined for Paradise, and only one is destined for Hell, which is clearly against the blessed Hadith of the Seal of the Prophets (peace be upon him) and is a blatant insult to him. Here, it seems Mirza Ji is worried that only he will be the fuel of Hell, while everyone else will be destined for Paradise. This whole speech is based on a false premise. This Hadith mentions seventy-two sects being destined for Hell and one being saved. It is about being destined for Paradise and Hell, and it is obvious that some sinful Muslims will also enter Hell once. In any case, this Hadith does not use the words "kafir" (disbeliever) and "Muslim," but rather "destined for Hell" and "destined for Paradise." Now, both of them have wrongly taken advantage of this Hadith and are unnecessarily trying to deceive the public. Seventy-two and Seventy-three Sects Neither does this seventy-third sect call all seventy-two sects "kafir," nor do the seventy-two sects call this seventy-third sect "kafir." It is another matter that if any person from these sects crosses the line and holds clearly blasphemous beliefs, then he cannot remain a Muslim. But this is not specific to these seventy-two sects. Seventy-third Sect: Ahl-e-Sunnat Even a person from the Ahl-e-Sunnat wal Jamaat, if he denies any obvious and definitive belief, he also cannot remain a Muslim. For example, if he denies the finality of prophethood or considers adultery and alcohol lawful. In any case, this Hadith has nothing to do with the issue of disbelief and Islam, and the issue of the Mirzais is completely opposite to it, that they are a non-Muslim minority, they are definitively disbelievers. They have accepted Mirza Ji as a prophet. They deny the life of Christ (peace be upon him), they deny the physical ascension (Miraj). They consider Mirza Ji's revelation definitive and believe in it like the Quran. QADIANI ISSUE They harbor animosity, and call those who insult Jesus (peace be upon him) and all the prophets a reformer and Messiah. Who includes them among the seventy-three sects? Rather, they are outside all of them and absolutely infidels. The reason we have written that Mirza Sahib tried to benefit from Maududi Sahib's writing is that, according to Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, Maududi Sahib wrote that the sign of the saved sect is that it will be in a very small minority. However, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "Adhere to the largest group, for whoever separates from it will be thrown into Hell." (Or as he said) Then he hid his poor self in these words, and in this populated world, his status would be that of strangers and foreigners. In the populated world, there are also infidels who are in the majority, and the hadith that commands to stay with the large group. Does it give the same command to stay with the infidels as well? These are the Mujtahids, reformers, and self-made Caliphs of the fourteenth century. In reality, the mention is of Muslims, and the command is to follow the large group and the majority among Muslims. So it is known that the large group will always remain on the truth. Therefore, the world has seen that even after fourteen hundred years, there is a multitude of followers of the Companions among Muslims all over the world. These are the Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jama'ah. However, the remaining seventy-two sects are not called infidels in this hadith. The dispute with the Mirzais is about infidelity and Islam. Therefore, this point of entitlement of Nasir Ahmad Sahib is completely wrong. He has only tried to prove his minority as an indication of truth from Maududi Sahib's statement. Or he has kept a false hope. Mirza Nasir Ahmad should know that Maududi Sahib has also rebelled against the meaning of this hadith by not considering the Companions as the standard of truth, and by twisting the matter of minority, he has made a futile attempt to prove his handful of followers as truthful, like the Mirzais. 2360 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 30th Aug., 1974 Pakistan, in the neutral world, will become this, will become that. The expression of struggle is not in their memorandum. This page is useless. Mr. Chairman, it is not written in it, should I read what is written or debate verbally? Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Actually... Mr. Chairman: Not actually, read what is written. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: He is elaborating too much on this. Maulana Abdul Haleem: Very well, sir. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has summarized his past writings on the page in the memorandum. It is just a sermon of caution and an attempt to scare by lamenting ridicule in the neutral world. To Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, We also preach to Mirza Sahib that London's democracy is famous among the democracies of the world. But the parliament there has legalized sodomy. Should we be afraid of those people laughing or be ashamed of them or America, which cannot appoint a communist to a key position? Or consider Russia, which cannot give a responsible position to an American democrat. Because those are principled governments, whoever does not accept their principle, they will not keep him. Then, our national religion is Islam. Our religion is Islam, so why should we tolerate someone who is against the principles of Islam and impose them on ourselves? If you are truly a seeker of truth, then abandon Mirzaism. You will also get your reward and that of the other Mirzais who will become Muslims. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2361 Mirza Sahib! The distinction between black and white still exists in the Western world. They have separated politics from religion. They are against Islamic punishments for theft and adultery, and therefore these crimes are rampant there. They are against giving inheritance to women. They consider Islamic divorce and polygamy to be wrong. They object to the Sharia veil. Their moral condition has deteriorated. They sometimes legally ban alcohol and sometimes allow it. Can we abandon any part of Islam for their sake? And will we continue to look towards them? O showplace of the world, you wept, Where were you? For every spectacle, You weep. 2362 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Definition of Muslim QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2363 Pakistani Muslims have long been demanding a definition of a Muslim, because without a definition, non-Muslim Mirzais in Pakistan seize positions under the name of Muslim. And this scheme was devised by the British, which was not successful at the time, but it has put Muslims in confusion. In any case, when the first constitution stipulated that the President must be a Muslim, we started demanding the definition of a Muslim from that time. And this was a completely legal and natural thing. When it is a condition for the President to be a Muslim, then the definition of a Muslim must be in the constitution itself. Otherwise, anyone could call himself a Muslim and become a candidate for the presidency. And now the new government has made it a condition for both the President and the Prime Minister to be Muslim, and although a clear definition of a Muslim has been avoided, the words proposed for the oath of the President and the Prime Minister include belief in the finality of Prophethood and after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) no one can become a prophet, also mentioned is belief in all requirements of the Quran and Hadith. This is an achievement of the present government that has alarmed the powers that are fond of disbelief. The Mirzais are especially upset by this. Initially, they supported the People's Party in order to seize positions and memberships, and now they have suddenly joined Asghar Khan. (Reference: Lolak Lyallpur) [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi).] Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Then the role that Mirzai Zafar Chaudhry (former Air Marshal) played, for which he was also punished, is in front of everyone. Later, India carried out a nuclear explosion. And just a few days later, Mirzais committed riots and oppression at Darbod Station. Mirzai people can never be loyal to the country. They are not bound by the government, they are bound by their Khalifa. 2364 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Definition of a Muslim: Now, when the demand to declare the Mirzais as a non-Muslim minority has gained strength again after 30 years, the Mirzais are also eager to define a Muslim, so that they can somehow be counted among the Muslims. Under this heading, it is clear from the statement of the Mirzai affidavit on page 15 that they do not consider any definition valid that is given at any time after the Book of Allah and the definition given by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) himself. This is supported on page 19, line number 4, where it is written that this group! Ahmadiyya's position is that the same constitutional and legal definition of a Muslim should be adopted. Which Hazrat Khatam-ul-Anbiya (PBUH) said with his blessed tongue. Three hadiths have been presented in this regard. As if they are definitions of the Prophet's language. But you will be surprised that Mirza Nasir Ahmad has given another technical meaning of Islam from the Holy Quran on page 23, line number 15. The liar is forgetful. Whereas this definition belongs to the era of Mirzaism of old definitions. It is true that a liar is forgetful. Mirza Nasir Sahib has copied this reformatory meaning from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani's words in Aina Kamalat Islam, pages 57 to 62. In these four pages, Mirza Qadiani has tried to establish his Sufism and tried to give the impression with his speech that he is also a God-fearing and devoted person to Allah. But Mirza Ji's purpose was also to deceive, and Mirza Nasir Ahmad seems to have the same purpose. Otherwise, after the three definitions of Hadith, there was no need to quote this fourth definition and speech of Mirza Ji, but to make people believe that Mirza Ji is so devoted to Allah that none of his actions can be without the command of God. In this regard, we are compelled to present the social life of Mirza Sahib Qadiani to the nation. Does a man of this kind have even one in a hundred thousand relationship with this speech, but first we want to end the discussion of the definition of a Muslim. VADIANT BOUD UMSERANG LAIN, USSION Ahadith Mentioned in the Definition of a Muslim First Hadith: Hazrat Jibril (peace be upon him) came to the service of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in human disguise and spoke as follows: "Ya Muhammad, tell me about Islam." He said, "Islam is to bear witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and to establish prayer, and to give zakat, and to fast in Ramadan, and to perform Hajj to the House if you are able to go there." He said, "You have spoken the truth." We were surprised that he asked and then confirmed. Then he said, "Tell me about faith." He said, "It is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, and the Last Day, and to believe in destiny, whether good or bad." The man said, "You have spoken the truth." (Muslim Sharif) 2366 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Second Hadith: A man from Najd came to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, with disheveled hair. We could hear his murmuring but could not understand what he was saying until he came close. He asked about Islam. The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "Five prayers in the day and night." He asked, "Is there anything else required of me?" He said, "No, unless you do voluntary acts." The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, mentioned fasting in Ramadan. He asked, "Is there anything else necessary?" He said, "No, unless you do voluntary acts." Then the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, mentioned Zakat. He asked, "Is there anything else?" He said, "No, unless you do voluntary acts." The narrator says that the man turned away, saying, "By God, I will neither add to this nor subtract from it." The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "If he is truthful, he will succeed and prosper." (Sahih Bukhari) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2367 Third Hadith: "Whoever prays our prayer, faces our Qibla, and eats what we slaughter is a Muslim who is under the protection of Allah and His Messenger, so do not betray Allah in His protection." (This translation was done by Mirza Nasir Sahib, which he copied from Maududi Sahib.) (4) Now, along with these three Siddiqui definitions, add the fourth definition of Mirza Qadiani, which Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib quoted in the memorandum from page 23 to page 26. Now we want to mention those things that Mirza Nasir Ahmad has separated from the definition of a Muslim and mentioned incidentally, so that we can discuss them all together later. (5) Mirza Nasir Ahmad himself has written the verse of the Holy Quran on page: "And do not say to one who offers you [a greeting of] peace, "You are not a believer." Translation: And whoever greets you with Salam (peace), do not say to him (in response) that you are not a Muslim. This verse shows that even one who says Salam, you cannot call him a disbeliever or a non-Muslim. 2368 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 (6) Mirza Nasir Ahmad has quoted another narration on page that Hazrat Usama bin Zaid He narrates that the Holy Prophet sent us towards the Nakhlistan of the Juhaina tribe. We morning We found them at their springs in the morning. Me and an Ansari followed one of their man. When we found him and subdued him, he spoke rose. There is no god but Allah (there is no god but God). This made my Ansari companion stopped him. But I killed him by hitting him with a spear. When we When we returned to Madinah and the Holy Prophet came to know about this. So you said. O Usama! Did you kill him even after he recited La ilaha illallah? I submitted O Messenger of Allah. He was only saying these words to save himself. You kept repeating this again and again. They were repeated, until I wished I had not been Would not have been a Muslim. And in another narration, it is said that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said that when he He confessed La ilaha illallah, but you still killed. I submitted. O Messenger of Allah, he did so for fear of weapons. You said that you Did you tear his heart to see if he said it from his heart or not? The Holy Prophet said this so many times. Repeated that I began to wish that I had become a Muslim today. (Bukhari Kitab al-Maghazi) This also proves that reciting the Kalima is Islam. It is difficult to see by tearing the heart Now we quote some more narrations of the same kind. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2369 (7) Narrated by Abu Huraira....... Abu Huraira says that Hazrat (peace be upon him) Rasool Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) gave me his sandals (blessed slippers) and told me to go and give glad tidings of Paradise to whoever you meet behind this wall who testifies that there is no god but Allah with a sincere heart. (Muslim) To Abu Dharr, Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that any servant who says "La ilaha illallah" and then dies on this belief will enter Paradise. Abu Dharr asked, "Even if he commits adultery and theft?" The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said three times, "Even if he commits adultery and theft." Agreed upon. Both narrations are narrated with brevity. (Mishkat al-Masabih, Book of Faith) etc. Agreed upon. (8) It is narrated that when the esteemed Companions (Sahaba) attacked a city in the morning, they would observe; if they heard the sound of Adhan (call to prayer) from there, they would not attack. From this, it is evident that reciting the Adhan proved that they were Muslims. (9) Hazrat Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him) waged Jihad against those who denied Zakat (obligatory charity), which indicates that not giving Zakat or denying it is an act of disbelief (Kufr). (10) Hazrat Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him) waged Jihad against those who denied the finality of Prophethood (Khatam-e-Nabuwwat) and those who claimed Prophethood. From this, it is evident that the issue of the finality of Prophethood is also a part of faith (Juz-e-Iman), and its denier is excluded from Islam. 2370 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Justice Munir or Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib Now, if Justice Munir or Mirza Nasir Ahmad make fun of the religious scholars, or deem it objectionable to agree on the definition of Islam, then this objection of theirs does not apply to the religious scholars, but to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) - God forbid. Justice Munir Sahib, after becoming the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, attained his worldly desires. The matter of the Day of Judgment is related to Allah Almighty and repentance, but there is not much hope of repentance from Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib. May Allah Almighty grant him the grace to become a Muslim, so that he may also receive the reward for the conversion of thousands of Mirzais to Islam, otherwise, Allah Almighty has prepared both Heaven and Hell. Whoever deserves where, will reach there. Expression of Truth: Are the things that have been described in the above ten points the definition of Islam or a Muslim, and is there any contradiction or deficiency in them or not? If these definitions are not of one kind, then Justice Munir's objection reaches the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and poor Mirza Nasir Ahmad is of no consequence at all. Difference of these Definitions Now see that in the Hadith number Jibril's narration, faith and Islam have been described separately. In number 2, in front of the simple person from Najd, you did not mention Hajj in the definition of Islam, and according to the Hadith of Jibril, there is no mention of the pillars of faith, without believing in which no Muslim can be a Muslim. In number 3 narration, there is mention of praying like us, facing the Qibla, and eating the animal slaughtered by our hands, but there is no mention of those things that were mentioned in the first two hadiths. In Hadith number 5, there is an order that we should not call the one who says Salam a non-Muslim, as if saying Salam is enough for Islam and faith. In the narration number 6, you repeatedly said to Hazrat Usama that "La ilaha illallah" QADIANI 1 After saying that, you killed him. Did you look at his heart? This narration proves that he became a Muslim just by saying "La ilaha illallah." He had not performed any other action yet. It is clear that this word alone is sufficient to become a Muslim. In narration number, only saying "La ilaha illallah" is stated as the reason for entering Paradise. [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali).] Maulana Abdul Hakeem: According to narrations number 9 and number 10, Hazrat Siddiq fought against those who claimed prophethood and also against those who denied Zakat. This means that they were not Muslims because of these two crimes. The case of Musaylimah Kazzab and other claimants of prophethood is clear, but when Hazrat Siddiq expressed the intention to wage jihad against those who denied Zakat, Hazrat Umar said that they say "La ilaha illallah." The Prophet (PBUH) said, "I have been commanded to fight the people until they say La ilaha illallah" (that I have been commanded to fight people until they say La ilaha illallah). The meaning is that by saying "La ilaha illallah," they saved their wealth and lives. Hazrat Siddiq did not debate or argue with Hazrat Umar, but rather said that even if someone used to give a strap of Zakat to the Prophet and does not give it to me, I will fight him. In some narrations, it is mentioned that whoever differentiates between Zakat and Salat, I will fight him (Allahu Akbar). What an insight, what purity of heart! Hazrat Umar says that Allah Almighty has opened Abu Bakr's heart for the truth, and then jihad started unanimously. 2372 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (30th Aug., 1974 Investigation of the Definition of Muslims First you, Quran verses, "And who is more unjust than the one (1) ومن اظلم ممن افترى على الله كذبا who invents a lie about Allah or denies أو كذب بآياته أنه لا يفلح الظالمون His verses? Indeed, the wrongdoers do not prosper." (2) ولو ترى الوقفو على النار فقالوا ياليتنا And if you could see when they are ترد ولا نكهب بايات ربنا ونكون من made to stand before the Fire, they will المؤمنين say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life] and not deny the verses of our Lord and be among the believers." (3) ولقد كذب اصحاب الحجر المرسلين And the dwellers of Al-Hijr certainly denied the messengers. (4) كذب اصحاب الايكته المرسلين The dwellers of the thicket denied the messengers. (5) واحى هارون هو افصح مني لساناً And my brother, Aaron, is more eloquent فارسله معى رداً يصدقنى انى امحاف than me in speech, so send him with me as a يكذبونه helper to confirm me. Indeed, I fear that they will deny me. (6) والذى جاء بالصدق وصدق به اوليك And the one who brings the truth and هم المتقون". confirms it - those are the righteous. (7) وكنا نكذب بيوم الدين And we used to deny the Day of Judgment. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION (8) But he denied and turned away, then he neither confirmed the truth nor prayed, Rather, he denied and turned away. (9) As for him who gives and fears Allah and confirms the best (reward), We will ease him toward ease. (10) Have you seen if he denies and turns away? (11) Have you seen the one who denies the Recompense? (12) Apart from these verses, "believed and did righteous deeds" has been repeated again and again throughout the Holy Quran. Which clearly means that they should believe and do good deeds. Good deeds have already been learned from Hadith Jibril (peace be upon him) that good deeds are prayers, fasting, Hajj, Zakat and in the same way, the details of faith have been given under this Hadith. Legal Attestation Now it remains to be seen that attestation has been called faith in the Holy Quran in many places and denial has been called disbelief. If a person fully understands that Islam is the true religion, and he is certain of it, but he is not ready to accept it from the heart because of jealousy, prejudice, stubbornness or for the sake of false prestige, he is not a Muslim, just as the Roman king Heraclius declared the principles of Islam to be true but refused to accept it due to the noise of the courtiers. About the People of the Book in the Holy Quran: They know him as they know their own sons. Translation: And they recognize this prophet as they recognize their own sons. 2374 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 The meaning is that they have no doubt in the truthfulness of Islam, but still they do not accept it. That is why they are infidels. The point of this entire speech is that the Quran and Hadith are absolutely clear; those whose hearts have not been sealed by Allah Almighty can understand. Now, you yourself consider how much grief was expressed in the narration of Hazrat Usama bin Zaid over the killing of that man after he recited the Kalma, even though at that time, besides the Kalima Tayyiba, he had no other deed to his credit. So its meaning was that he had accepted the religion of Islam. There was no proof against his denial. That is why Rahmat-ul-Lil Alameen expressed grief. The Essence of Faith and Infidelity So, the essence of faith is to believe God Almighty and His Messenger to be truthful in all matters and to accept them sincerely from the heart, and infidelity is to deny even one word of God Almighty or the Messenger in comparison. Now, you will find no difference in the definitions of the scholars, nor in the teachings of Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH), nor in the meaning of the Holy Quran. At that time, all the Companions knew that accepting the Prophet (PBUH) is Islam and not accepting the Prophet (PBUH) is called infidelity, and this thing was so obvious that every small and big person knew it. As if everyone knew this truth that accepting the religion from the heart is Muslim, and not doing so is faithlessness and infidelity. Signs of Faith and Infidelity The thing is that whatever has been described in the ten narrations, all these are signs. Since believing or not believing from the heart are matters of the heart. Therefore, in judiciary and Sharia, judgment will be based on its signs. Therefore, if you see a sign of faith in a person, then he will be called a Muslim. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2312 If we see a sign of disbelief, we will consider him a non-Muslim: (1) If a person says " السلام علیکم" (peace be upon you), you will understand that he knows and believes in our religion. You have no right to say to him, "You are not a believer or a disbeliever." But if the same person denies the Day of Judgment in his conversations after a while, then a sign of disbelief is found in him. Therefore, he will now be called a disbeliever. (2) Similarly, a person is praying facing the Qibla. This is a sign of confirming the religion. Now we will consider him a Muslim. If the same person says after a while that adultery is permissible, then we will call him a disbeliever because a sign of disbelief and denial has appeared. (3) If the sound of the morning Adhan (call to prayer) comes from a village, who would be foolish enough not to consider them Muslims? Because a sign of confirmation is found in them. But if they say after a while that someone can receive prophethood after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), now this sign of denial and rejection has appeared. Now we will call them disbelievers. (4) The Arabs believed that Allah Almighty is the Creator of the heavens and the earth, but they also believed in small deities with Him. That is, small gods, so at that time, "لا الہ الا اللہ" (There is no god but Allah) was a sign that he had accepted the religion of Islam. But if such a person then says that usury and adultery are permissible and does not consider prayer obligatory, then we will now call him a disbeliever, because now the sign of denial has been proven in him. (5) Suppose a person acknowledges believing in all things from the heart according to the Hadith of Gabriel (peace be upon him), but then he throws the Holy Quran (God forbid) into a dirty drain in front of everyone, then this sign of denial and rejection has appeared. Now the rest of his words cannot save him from disbelief. (6) No one even discussed the denial of Musaylimah the Liar and other claimants of prophethood, and they saw no remedy for them except jihad and fighting. (7) The deniers of Zakat apparently did not want to act upon a pillar of Islam, so Hazrat Umar was hesitant to fight them. But Hazrat Siddiq's guidance proved to be his guide, that whoever differentiates between prayer and Zakat, I will fight him. The point was that this is not just a shortcoming in action, but they want to have this Islamic right waived and end its obligation, and this is a denial of Islamic rulings. Glory be to Allah, the Great, what kind of men of God they were that in a few sentences, Hazrat Umar was satisfied without any discussion. The era of the Companions was a pure era. Those gentlemen used to understand the intention of the Prophet without debate, scrutiny, argumentation, and lengthy reasoning. Therefore, when they wanted to give any advice to Hazrat, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, they would first inquire with great respect, "O Messenger of Allah, is this an order or advice?" They knew that disobeying the Messenger's command was a risk of disbelief because disobeying a direct command could mean that one does not consider the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to be truthful, at least in that particular matter, and this is absolute disbelief. That is why whenever the Companions wanted to give advice, they would first inquire. Otherwise, they considered disobeying even one command of the Holy Prophet to be against religion. So faith is to believe in all the words of God and the Messenger, and to accept them from the heart, and disbelief is to deny even one word of the Lord of Majesty and Glory or His Holy Messenger, and this is absolute disbelief. But these confirmations and denials are qualities of the heart, so in Islam, the ruling is based on signs and symbols, and every court in the world only looks at the outward. The Companions and the Muslims of the best generations understood these facts fully due to their insightful faith, their correct understanding of the Quran, and the blessing of the Prophet's company, and it was not even a debatable matter for them. They considered believing in the Prophet as faith and disbelieving in him as disbelief, and this is the summary of our research. Now you can apply all the hadiths, verses, and traditions to this. The Companions who read the entire Quran and lived in the Prophet's company for years did not consider the issue of what is Islam and what is disbelief to be debatable. Who is a Muslim and who is a disbeliever? They had only one thing in mind: whoever believed in the Prophet (peace be upon him) became a Muslim, and whoever did not believe in the Holy Prophet was a disbeliever. Mirza Nasir Ahmad's Refutation by Mirza Qadiani Himself Mirza Nasir Ahmad presented three hadiths in the definition of a Muslim, but Mirza Qadiani refuted it with: "Nay, whoever submits his whole self to Allah and is a doer of good, he will have his reward with his Lord; no fear need they have, nor shall they grieve." Meaning, he is a Muslim who surrenders his entire being in the way of God. He has described its details in the next two pages. It is as if this is the fourth definition besides the three hadiths. He has added it from his side and made it the definition of a Muslim. In fact, the article he has written in the next four pages is so that the readers may understand that Mirza Ji is such an elevated Muslim. Similarly, in the memorandum, whatever Mirza Nasir Ahmad has written under the title of "Recognition of the Divine Being" and the second title of "The High and Exalted Status of the Great Quran," and all the articles he has written under the title of "The Status of the Seal of the Prophets (peace be upon him)," are copied from the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and the purpose of all this is to impress the common people and the uninformed Muslims with his greatness, sanctity, and knowledge. However, anyone who has seen the books of the Sufis can say and write all these things. With these things, Mirza Ji has deceived people by manifesting his prophethood, shadow prophethood, reflectional prophethood, non-legislative prophethood, subordinate prophethood, metaphorical prophethood, being the very Muhammad, and annihilation in the Messenger. 2378 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Result of the entire discussion. From the discussion of disbelief and Islam, the definition of a disbeliever has become clear to you. According to this definition, which cannot be refuted, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani is definitively a disbeliever and outside the pale of Islam. Therefore, his followers, whether they are Qadianis or Lahoris, whether they consider him a prophet or a reformer or a Muslim, are also outside the bounds of Islam. The detail of this is that many signs of falsehood are found together in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani: (1) The biggest sign is his claim to prophethood, which Mirza Qadiani himself declared as disbelief, and his successor, Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, also confirms this claim and considers Mirza Sahib a prophet. And by calling him a "prophet within the Ummah," they try to hide his claim of prophethood. However, the Qadiani Mirzais consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be such a true prophet upon whom definitive revelation comes like other prophets, which is as definitive and free from errors as the Quran. And if the claim of prophethood cannot be a sign of falsehood, then what could be greater than that? The issue of the finality of prophethood is such that it is proven from the Holy Quran and authentic Hadiths, and the entire Ummah is in agreement on its meaning, as its mention will come in its place. (2) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has insulted the chosen prophets of Allah Almighty, which is an open sign of rejecting the religion and rejecting the messengers. You can also read about this in its place. (3) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has declared himself superior to Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ), peace be upon him, and has openly insulted him. (4) Mirza Sahib has claimed divine revelation and has declared his revelation to be like the Quran and other heavenly books. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2379 (5) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani changed the meanings of all those verses, which prove the finality of Prophethood, the descent of Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon him, the life of Christ, peace be upon him, and other definitive and successive issues, which means heresy, that the words of the Holy Quran remain the same, but their meanings are completely changed. This is a distortion of the Quran and a definite disbelief against the agreed meanings and interpretations of the saints, scholars, jurists and reformers of the Ummah for thirteen hundred years. (6) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani called millions of Muslims who did not believe in him as infidels, and called them infidels in the same way as denying God and the Messenger. This is also a clear denial of the old religion of Islam and a definitive disbelief. So it is proved that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and all his followers, whether Lahori or Qadiani, are definitively infidels and out of Islam. The new deception of the Mirzais The Mirzai sect has understood that it can no longer be denied that Mirza Qadiani has definitively called those who do not believe in him as infidels, and Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad Sahib has further confirmed this excommunication and announced that the funeral prayer of common Muslims (non-Ahmadis) should not be offered, nor should they be given in marriage, and Mirza Qadiani himself had declared it forbidden by the command of God to offer prayers under the leadership of the common Muslims. Now, in order to mix with Muslims and plunder the rights of Muslims in the name of Islam, the taste of which the English and then Zafarullah Khan had given them, they have fabricated this idea that there are two types of disbelief. One type of disbelief is that which takes a person out of the Islamic community, and no Islamic relations can be maintained with him, but the other type of disbelief is of such a degree that they mix with Muslims. 2380 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 does not stop him from living [among Muslims]. But in the Hereafter, he will be held accountable for what only God knows. Such people, as long as they call themselves Muslims, will be considered Muslims. This is a fresh deception, which means that Mirzais and Mirza himself do not exclude Muslims from the Muslim community, but, pressured by the questions of our esteemed Attorney General, Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib had to admit that ordinary Muslims who do not believe in Mirza are infidels and outside the pale of Islam. But they are outside the small circle of Islam, not the large one. Our Challenge We challenge Mirza Nasir Ahmad and all his Mirzais to prove that in the period of thirteen to thirteen and a half centuries, even one person declared adultery or alcohol lawful, or claimed prophethood and revelation, and yet the Muslims kept him among themselves while he adhered to this belief. In contrast, we have shown that the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) waged jihad against those who denied zakat merely for denying zakat, even though they believed in the rest of Islam and called themselves Muslims. Mr. Chairman: There are two pages left. Chapter is ending. A drowning man clutches at a straw - only two pages are - left. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Mirza Nasir Ahmad, to allow the Mirzais to live among the Muslims, called the ordinary Muslims infidels and outside the pale of Islam, but created a large circle of the Muslim community within which they could live. Even within this circle, he deemed it correct to separate marriage, funerals, and prayers from them. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2381 Less than Muslims. And in this connection, they tried to celebrate victory by finding the word "millet" (community/faith) in the Holy Quran. They said that the Quran mentions the "millet of Ibrahim" (Abraham), but not the "circle of Islam," and then they recited this verse: "The faith of your father Abraham. It is He who named you Muslims." Well, where does this verse say that even after denying the definitive tenets of God and the Prophet, one can remain in the "millet of Ibrahim?" The verse itself clarifies by saying "It is He who named you Muslims" that this is the name of the "millet of Ibrahim." Now, how can someone who is not a Muslim remain in the "millet of Ibrahim?" Elsewhere in the Holy Quran, it is clearly stated: "And I have approved Islam for you as a religion." Here, both the words "religion" and "Islam" are present. Now, how can someone who is outside of Islam remain in the religion of Islam? And how can Mirza Qadiani, along with his followers, be called Muslims after denying the definitive tenets of the faith? Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib said that no one has the right to expel someone who calls himself a Muslim from Islam. Although in doing so, he has contradicted his own grandfather, Mirza Qadiani, and his father, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud, who called Muslims infidels in the same way that someone who denies a prophet is called an infidel. But by saying this, he has made himself a laughingstock. Completion of Argument Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib repeatedly mentioned this condition during the cross-examination for being expelled from the Muslim community that whoever denies after the completion of the argument is also expelled from the Islamic community. But you will give credit to Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, who changed the meaning of the completion of argument for the sake of his purpose. He says that the requirement of completion of argument is that the heart accepts after hearing the arguments, but after understanding the truth. 2382 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 Even after that, he denies. Such a person is such an infidel that he is also out of the Islamic nation. In this regard He repeated this verse many times. And they denied them, while their souls were convinced of them (and those Infidels, Pharaohs and his group denied even though their hearts were convinced) Mirza Sahib, let us read you another verse of your interest. They recognize him as they recognize their own sons. They know this Quran or Prophet as they know their own sons. But you should know that the first verse mentions the Pharaohs and the second verse mentions the People of the Book (Jews and Christians). There is no doubt that many infidels, even after understanding Islam correctly, deny it out of stubbornness and animosity. They were infidels anyway. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib wasted time by discussing the meanings of completion and argument in the two parts of completion of argument. The meaning of argument is proof and the meaning of completion is to complete. There is no need for such a broad discussion in this. In order to prove a claim to someone, there should be complete clarity. Evidences for the claim are stated, now if he does not accept it, then it will be said. The argument has been completed on him. It is not a condition in this that he understands your claim from his heart and refuses to accept it. These new meanings are Mirza Ji Nasir Ahmad Sahib's own competence. Not the Holy Quran. So that people may not have against Allah We sent the above-mentioned prophets as bearers of good news and warners, after the messengers an argument After Allah Almighty sent the Messenger, he gave the good news of Paradise to the believers and frightened the disbelievers of Hell. Invited towards monotheism, proved himself to be the Messenger of God with evidence, so now no one can say this. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL MASLUSSIVI A messenger did not come to us. The argument has been completed, now believe it or not. If Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib means that seventy crore Muslims did not deny Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani's claims of proof and revelation after truly understanding them from the heart, but rather they considered Mirza Ji's claims to be wrong. Therefore, they are disbelievers but minor disbelievers, not major disbelievers. But we say that when Mirza Qadiani calls those who do not call him the Promised Messiah disbelievers like those who deny God and the Prophet, then how can a denier of God and the Prophet be considered a Muslim to any degree? Furthermore, if Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib's logic is accepted as correct, then most of the disbelievers in the world who have not truly understood any prophet, nor have they been convinced that he is a true prophet, have not had the argument completed upon them. Then how can eternal fire and everlasting hell be for them, which is specifically for disbelievers? Following his grandfather, here Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has openly said that even disbelievers will eventually be taken out of hell, which is against the following verses of the Holy Quran. "Except the path of Hell; they will abide therein forever." (Part 1, Section 3) "Indeed, Allah has cursed the disbelievers and prepared for them a blazing Fire wherein they will abide forever." (Part 22, Section 5) "And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger - then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein forever." (Part 29, Section 12) 2384 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [30th Aug., 1974 From Mr. Nasir Ahmad Sahib: (1) Mr. Nasir Ahmad Sahib, please explain that when the Prophet's divine power is prophet-making, and prophets can be made through your tremendous grace, then "Khatam-ul-nabiyeen" contains the plural form of "nabiyeen," so at least three or four prophets should have been made through your grace. Whereas you do not accept anyone becoming a prophet without Mirza *Sahib* until the Day of Judgment. (2) And if you only grant Mirza *Sahib* the status of a reflectional prophet, that the complete reflection of *Sarwar-e-Alam* (PBUH) has come into Mirza *Sahib*, then *Sarwar-e-Alam* (PBUH) was the possessor of *Sharia* and superior to all the prophets, so according to *Dee Gall*, why shouldn't Mirza *Sahib* be a *Sharia*-possessing prophet and why shouldn't he be superior to all the prophets in a reflectional way, in accordance with the Holy Prophet (PBUH)? (3) When Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood wrote on page 188 of "Haqeeqat-un-Nubuwwah" that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the embodiment of the prophecy of Hazrat Isa (A.S.) ( "and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad"), then how can one remain a Muslim within the *Millat* while denying the Messenger? In fact, Akmal's poems, which were recited in front of Mirza Qadiani and which Mirza *Sahib* confirmed, are a manifestation of the fact that Mirzais consider Ghulam Ahmad even superior to *Sarwar-e-Alam* (PBUH) himself. Akmal's poems are as follows: Muhammad has descended again among us, And is ahead in his glory. To Allah we belong and to Him we shall return. O Akmal, whoever wants to see Muhammad Should see Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Due to these blasphemous beliefs and ideas, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and his followers (Qadianis and Lahoris) are definitively infidels and are excluded from the Muslim community. Mr. Chairman: Can we read one more chapter? Maulana Abdul Hakeem: As you command. A Member: Start a little earlier in the morning. Mr. Chairman: We will start at 9:00 am and finish by 2:00 pm. The House is adjourned to meet tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. 2385 [The Special Committee of the whole House adjourned to meet at nine of the Clock, in the morning, on Saturday, the 31st August, 1974. PCPP 1103(10)N.A.-29-04-2011-400. No. 16 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, the 31st August, 1974 (No. 16, contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS Pages 1. Qadiani Issue-General Discussion-(Continued) 2390-2617 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD Price Rs. 11.00 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, the 31st August, 1974 (No. 16, contains Nos. 1-21) In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Saturday, 31st August, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at nine o'clock in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. (Surah: 1) RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN 2389 [Translation:] 2390 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 QUADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Mr. Chairman Maulana Abdul Hakeem! Some things have been reduced, the chapter of abuses has been removed, meaning they will not be read, but they are included in it anyway. The End of Prophethood Maulana Abdul Hakeem: In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. For thirteen hundred years, Muslims all over the world have agreed that claiming prophethood after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is disbelief, and in every era, such claimants have been punished after all arguments have been exhausted. Before Mirza Qadiani's claim, there was no disagreement on this issue among scholars and ordinary Muslims. Musaylima the Liar The first consensus in Islam was on the issue of the finality of prophethood when all Muslims waged war with the sword against Musaylima the Liar, the claimant of prophethood, during the caliphate of Siddiq. Because he had claimed prophethood and had gathered forty thousand people from the Rabi'a tribe around him. All the Companions, Ansar and Muhajireen, agreed to fight him. And thousands of Companions drank the cup of martyrdom and demolished the fort of Musaylima the Liar's false prophethood. Also, Jihad was waged against other claimants of prophethood besides Musaylima the Liar. And the Muslims were practically taught forever that the intention of Islam is that no one can claim prophethood within their borders of authority, and this claim is a clear disbelief and cause for Jihad. Therefore, in any later period, whoever claimed prophethood, his claim was not tolerated. Rather, he was severely punished. At no time did any ruler or scholar QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2391 It was not inquired from the claimant of prophethood what kind of prophethood he claimed. Independent prophethood or dependent. Legislative or non-legislative. An independent prophet or a dependent, subordinate prophet, or not even a follower, but his claim of prophethood itself was enough for him to be a criminal. This distinction was not in anyone's mind at that time that a Buruzi prophet can come, or a legislative, or a non-independent, or a dependent prophet, or not even a follower. All these words are to diminish the claim of prophethood, Which the Ummah considered intolerable for thirteen hundred years, and the Islamic governments of every era sentenced them to death. [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi)] Maulana Abdul Hakeem: A few more examples (2) Aswad Ansi claimed prophethood in Yemen. He was killed during the life of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And you informed the Companions after receiving the news through revelation. But when the messenger arrived in Madinah with the good news, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had passed away. (Tareekh Tabari, Ibn Atheer, Ibn Khaldun) (3) Sajah bint al-Harith was a woman from the tribe of Bani Tamim. She claimed prophethood and then joined Musaylima Kazzab. Later, she disappeared in the face of the Muslim army and eventually died as a Muslim. (4) Mukhtar bin Abi Ubaid al-Thaqafi. He falsely claimed prophethood and was killed in 27 AH by the order of Abdullah ibn Zubair (Tareekh al-Khulafa). 2392 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (5) Haris bin Saeed Kazzab Damishqi. Abdul Malik bin Marwan killed him and hanged him for the sake of example. Abdul Malik bin Marwan Damishqi himself was a Tabi'i and he saw hundreds of Sahaba and narrated Hadiths from them. (6) Mughira bin Saeed Ajli and Nabaan bin Sam'aan were there. Both claimed prophethood during the reign of Hisham bin Abdul Malik. In Iraq, their Mir Khalid bin Abdullah Qasri killed them (Tarikh Kamil Tabari). At the time of the caliphate of Hisham bin Abdul Malik, illustrious Tabi'in and eminent scholars were present. After Khair-ul-Quroon After Khair-ul-Quroon, Sahaba, Tabi'in and Taba Tabi'in, Muslim rulers in other eras also meted out the same fate to claimants of prophethood. In Iran, Baha'u'llah met a bad end. And even today, the Baha'i sect is against the law there. In Kabul, Maulvi Abdul Latif, who confirmed Mirza Qadiani's prophethood, was also killed. Qadianis are banned from entering Saudi Arabia. In any case, the entire Islamic world, including the scholars and great rulers of Syria, Iraq, the Two Holy Mosques, Kabul, Iran, and Egypt, supported and approved the killing of claimants of prophethood. In this country, Mirza Qadiani remained safe only due to the patronage of the British. Arguments for the End of Prophethood There was no need for arguments for the issue of the end of prophethood. Because it is among the obvious and necessary of the religion. Everyone knew that there would be no prophet after Sarwar Alam (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2393 It is not possible. And whoever claims it, the punishment is death. Taking advantage of the English rule or At the instigation of the British themselves, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani claimed prophethood. This claim also He did it gradually. First he became a preacher of Islam, then a Muhaddith, then a likeness of Christ, and later an independent Became the promised Messiah himself, and the term Messiah was also invented by him. Old books There is no existence of this term in it. Later, Nabi Ghair Tashreei, Nabi Buruzi, Nabi Ummati, He claimed to be, and progressed from metaphorical prophethood to real prophethood. Then the owner Did not become Sharia. Then he also had the inspiration to be the son of God, and finally in a dream he himself Became God and created the earth and the heavens. These things are spread in Mirza Ji's books and Commonly published. When Mirza Ji felt the need to become the Messiah himself by inventing the term Messiah instead of the coming Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). The matter was made up like this. The likeness of the one to come This noble being is the same. But he was a prophet. Here was only English loyalty. Inevitably, to become a prophet, he took refuge in Fanaa Fi al-Rasool and became Nabi by becoming Ain Muhammad himself. Tried to be called. The last resort that Mirza Ji took is that of Ummati Nabi, which means That the previous prophets used to get prophethood directly, but I follow the leader of the world, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him Has been received from. That is, prophethood has been received. But by the blessing of Huzoor. The scholars of Islam have Mirza Ji's this The reasons have also been blown away. The truth is that no Muslim is the leader of the world, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him Cannot tolerate anyone becoming a prophet after. This is such a problem that the entire Ummah has Consensus. For detailed arguments on this issue, you can refer to Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi Sahib, former Mufti : Darul Uloom Deoband's books Khatam-e-Nabuwat Fil Quran Khatam-e-Nabuwat Fil Hadith and Khatam-e-Nabuwat 2394 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [311 Nagari IVC extensively studied. Whose sufficient list is attached herewith. Or else, the writings of Hazrat Maulana Muhammad Anwar Shah Sahib Kandhlawi on Khatm-e-Nabuwwat and the books of Hazrat Allama Anwar Shah Sahib are unmatched in this regard, full of information, and a conclusive argument against the Mirzais. We want to present something here according to the need of the Assembly. Basic verse regarding Khatm-e-Nabuwwat مَا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَا أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَٰكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ Translation: Muhammad (peace be upon him) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets. You had daughters. And the children had died in childhood. Hazrat Zaid bin Haritha (may Allah be pleased with him) was your slave. Whom you freed and made your adopted son. So people started calling him Zaid bin Muhammad. But the Holy Quran, which only wants to guide people to the truth, forbade them from saying so. Now people started calling him Zaid bin Haritha. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had him married to his cousin Hazrat Zainab. But the husband and wife could not agree. Hazrat Zaid (may Allah be pleased with him) divorced her. Now, the marriage of a Quraishi woman to a freed slave and then divorce affected Hazrat Zainab (may Allah be pleased with her) in two ways. Then you (PBUH) married her, which removed all the bitterness of Hazrat Zainab (may Allah be pleased with her). But the enemies propagated a lot. That you married the wife of your adopted son. This verse clarified everything. He said. That the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not the father of anyone. That is, by saying so, Hazrat Zaid is not his real father. QAIMIANI IRST-DENLERAI. DISCUSSION 2395 It cannot happen that marriage becomes illegitimate. Then the Prophet's affection is greater than that of a father, and Your compassion is for the entire Ummah. That you are the Messenger of Allah and this Affection will never end because no one will be made after you until the Day of Resurrection. That Therefore, you are the spiritual father, prophet, and best patron of the entire Ummah until the Day of Judgment, and this The delusion that when you became the spiritual father and the Ummah became the spiritual children, then the spiritual inheritance, that is, Prophethood can also continue. That delusion was also dispelled by this command. Also from this decree That you are the one who ends the prophets. This inheritance will also not remain, and that is why Neither Hazrat Umar nor Hazrat Ali became prophets. Meaning of the Verse The meaning and brief meaning of the verse became clear. This verse is the central verse that Has closed all doors to becoming a prophet after Sarwar Alam (PBUH). If someone Wants to comprehend and fully see all these verses, then we have the Quran with Khatam-e-Nabuwat It is possible to do so. It has been proven in it with hundred verses that you have the number of prophets It is fulfilling and you are the خاتم النبیین. Here we will only briefly discuss one verse. From what to do. Interpretation of the Quran from the Quran. This is a well-established principle of explaining the meanings of the Quran that first we will see what the Quran What does the Quran itself reveal about the meaning of this verse? So according to this principle, this verse But the second recitation of the verse وَلَكِنْ رَسُولَ اللّٰهِ وَ خَاتَمَ النَّبِیّٖنَ which is from Hazrat Abdullah bin Masood. It is recited and recorded in Tafsir is this: وَلَكِنْ نَبِيًّا خَتَمَ النَّبِيّٖنَ Translation: But you are such a prophet who has ended all the prophets. 2396 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 31st August, 1974 This recitation has made the meaning of "but the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets" perfectly clear, that you (PBUH) are the one who ends the prophets. This change has blocked all the wrong interpretations, that you (PBUH) are the seal of the prophets. In the future, prophets will be made with your (PBUH) seal. Because now the meaning has become absolutely clear that this prophet has ended all the prophets. As if the meaning of Khatam is the one who ends. Interpretation of the Leader of the World (PBUH) Obviously, who can understand the meaning of the Quran better than the blessed being upon whom the Quran was revealed? This principle is accepted by all. Now listen to the interpretation of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). There is a hadith in Muslim Sharif, there is no doubt about its authenticity. "There will be thirty liars in my Ummah, each of them will claim to be a prophet, and I am the Seal of the Prophets, there is no prophet after me." Translation: The truth is that thirty liars will appear in my Ummah, each of them will claim to be a prophet, while I am the Seal of the Prophets. There is no prophet after me. Several things are known from this blessed, authentic, and infidelity-breaking hadith. (1) That the meaning of the Seal of the Prophets is "no prophet after me," that there will be no prophet after me. (2) The sign of him being a liar and a deceiver will be that he will say that he is a prophet. This claim of his is enough for him to be a liar and a deceiver. (3) Those deceivers and liars will emerge from my Ummah. They will call themselves Ummah prophets. If they do not claim to be from the Ummah of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then who will listen to them? These words also reveal the pretense of the Ummah prophet. In this Hadith, you did not say that some false prophets will come in my Ummah and some will be true. Beware, do not become infidels by denying them all. You did not say that there will be Buruzi, Zilli, Aksi, and non-legislative prophets, so do not call them liars and deceivers. Nor did you say that all will be deceivers for thirteen hundred years. Accept those who come later. And if a person claims prophethood and fights against the English, and declares Jihad as Haram, and spreads literature all over the world, then accept this English prophet, and that false prophethood is closed for thirteen hundred years, and there is freedom afterward (God forbid). In any case, this pure Hadith of the Holy Prophet ﷺ has dispelled all the doubts of the opponents of the finality of Prophethood. Another saying of the Holy Prophet ﷺ Note also another saying of yours which is in both Bukhari and Muslim. Abu Hurairah (RA) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "My example and the example of the prophets is like a palace that was built very beautifully, except for the space of one brick. People went around it, marveling at its beauty, except for the space of that brick. So I was the one who filled the space of the brick, and the Messengers were sealed through me." And in one narration: "So I am the brick and I am the Seal of the Prophets." Translation: Hazrat Abu Hurairah (RA) narrated that the Holy Prophet (ﷺ) said: "My example and the example of the prophets is like a palace that has been built very beautifully. But a brick space has been left. The viewers are surprised that what a good construction it is. Yes, a brick space is empty (why has it been left?). So I filled the place of that brick. And through me, the prophets were sealed." And in one narration, "So I am that brick and I am the Seal of the Prophets." This Hadith has explained the meaning of Khatam-un-Nabiyyin in a tangible way, that the building of Prophethood was complete, only a place for one brick was left. That was completed by the Holy Prophet. Now, Mirza Qadiani wants to enter this building, but who will let him? What answer do the Mirzais have to this? They find faults in the Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim and say what comparison does the glory of the "Master of the Universe" have to a small brick? "Surely we belong to Allah and to Him shall we return." This example is not of the whole world, but only of the palace of the prophets. What do these Mirzais know about how much space that one brick occupies? How beautiful that brick is? How big it is? Why can't the beauty of the entire palace be doubled by just one such brick? A Hadith Point This blessed Hadith has also removed the illusion that the verse of Khatam-un-Nabiyyin is related to those who are to come. You mentioned all the prophets who were to come and said that only the space for one brick remained vacant. And by declaring yourself as the last brick, you declared yourself as the seal of the prophets. The meaning is clear that the seal is related to the predecessors, not to the successors or those who are to come, that your seal and divine power will continue to carve out prophets and people will become prophets by your seal and will be called Umati (follower) prophets. Mirzai Disbelief Upon Disbelief In connection with this Hadith, Mirzai Abul Ata Jalandhari wrote that when Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace and blessings be upon him, comes in the last era, there will be no space vacant in the palace, so where will he be? It is a pity that the Mirzais do not refrain from dirty talk and especially from misrepresenting the prophets. First, listen to the answer to this. When Mirza Ji comes and there is no space left for a brick, where will Mirza Ji try to fit in? This is just like a Mirasi made up a story that when all the prophets pass before God one by one, and when Mirza Ji's turn comes, there will be an objection that your name is not on the list. Where did you come from among the prophets? Then Satan will immediately stand up with folded hands and say, "O God, you have sent approximately one hundred and twenty-four thousand prophets. I only sent this one. Please include him." O Mirzais! Do not be offended by mocking the prophets. Now listen to the real answer. This is just an example to solve the issue of the finality of prophethood and to explain to the Ummah. It does not prove that the prophets are as insensitive, motionless, and lifeless as bricks. The edifice of prophethood has been completed through Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) and Hazrat Sarwar-e-Alam (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). That number has been completed. Now, to honor the last prophet, whichever old prophet He brings, to honor the last prophet, He keeps them alive and then helps your Ummah. He has the authority. Who are the Mirzais to interfere in this? See the detailed discussion on the separate issue of the life of Isa Ibn Maryam (peace be upon him). Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: O people, know that nothing remains of prophethood except good tidings. (Narrated by Bukhari in Kitab al-Tafsir) PRAVA KONAL ASSEMBLY UP PAKISTAN It is narrated that Sarwar-e-Alam (P.B.U.H) was asked what Mubashirat (good tidings) are. He said: (Good dreams that a Muslim sees or another sees for him) It is narrated in another tradition that Mubashirat is the forty-sixth part of Prophethood. Anyway, only Allah knows the components of Prophethood. Prophethood, the honor of conversation, divine secrets of destiny and causes, the relationship between creation and creator, the medium of Prophethood, and discussions of this kind. These are far beyond our intellect and understanding. All these have been kept secret, only two parts have been revealed. Good and true dreams. Who can describe the reality of dream information about these unseen matters? The second part is divine conversations. Neither the essence of the Almighty Lord is within our knowledge nor His attributes, especially the divine conversation, how does this conversation take place? Directly from the Almighty Lord, through angels. Through inspiration in the heart. From behind a veil, or by hearing voices from the unseen, then what is the quality of each? In our opinion, these are matters of proximity and companionship. Anyway, these are parts of Prophethood. Not details of Prophethood. Whatever type of prophet he is, whether he is the owner of a book and Sharia. Like Moses (peace be upon him) etc. Whether he is without Sharia and book, like Aaron and all the prophets of the children of Israel. They are appointed for reforming the creation, they have conversations. They are sent and given the office of Prophethood. That revelation comes upon them which the angel brings upon the prophets. They are appointed for the enforcement of Sharia. There are matters of Sharia in their revelation. They are appointed to the office of Prophethood by Allah. The Awliya Allah call both these Prophethoods as legislative Prophethood and declare both as closed and ended. The general scholars of Kalam (Islamic theology), the scholars of Sharia, call the first one legislative Prophethood and the second one non-Prophethood, non-legislative. And after "But he is the Messenger of Allah and the last of the prophets" they declare both as ended. Some of the Awliya Allah are blessed with the honor of conversation. But the difference between a Prophet and Prophethood... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2401 They consider using the title for someone who is not a prophet as blasphemy. They also refer to *mukalamat* (dialogues) as non-legislative prophethood, by which they mean that the exalted being whom Allah gives the name of prophet, and elevates with the office of prophethood to reform creation by sending old, established commandments and revelations, that is not this prophethood. They deceive by claiming that Sheikh Akbar and others believe in the continuation and execution of legislative prophethood. In summary, the scholars of knowledge, speech, and Sharia, who mention two separate types of prophethood and declare them terminated, some saints call both of these legislative prophethoods and declare them terminated. The purpose of both becomes the same. The meaning is very clear: one does not call a part of a human being, such as a foot, a human being. The collection of parts is called a human being, but one can call the parts of an animal an animal. For example, a horse, a donkey, a cat, etc., can all be called animals. These are parts. But one cannot call the head of a horse a horse; one would call the collection of organs a horse. Now, if forty-six parts of the prophethood of the prophets (peace be upon them) come together, then someone is a prophet. But the collection of these parts and receiving the office of prophethood is purely a gift and favor from God. The *hadith*, in any case, is from Bukhari and is a clear proof of the finality of prophethood. This is the explanation of that first verse. A follower and Mirza'i, Abu al-Ata, of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has written: "Look, a drop of water is a part of the river, but both are called water." This is complete deception and the result of not distinguishing between *juz* (part) and *juz'i* (particular). A drop is also water, and a river is also water. Drops are not parts of water. The components of water are hydrogen and oxygen. Can anyone call one of these two components water? Just as a small donkey and a big donkey are both particular instances of animal. Both can be called animals. But one cannot call any part of a donkey a donkey. Abu al-Ata Mirza'i makes up things and compares them to the Quran and *hadith*. The Fourth Saying of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) This *hadith* is recorded in Bukhari in the Battle of Tabuk. 2-102 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Translation: Are you not happy to be to me as Harun (A.S.) was to Hazrat Musa (A.S.). The thing is, there is no prophet after me. When you were leaving for the Battle of Tabuk, you left Hazrat Ali to take care of the household, etc., so Hazrat Ali felt left behind with the children and women, on which you comforted him by saying this. Hazrat Harun (A.S.) was the cousin of Hazrat Musa (A.S.) and was a prophet following Hazrat Maryam (A.S.). He was not an independent follower of Sharia, nor did he possess a book. When Hazrat Musa (A.S.) went to Mount Tur, he left him to take care of things. The same thing you said to Hazrat Ali (R.A.) and consoled him. But since Hazrat Harun (A.S.) was a prophet. This misunderstanding was removed by saying that after me there can be no prophet. As if after you, even a follower, a non-independent prophet without Sharia, cannot be made. You must have come to know that prophethood is a great position and a heavy reward and is obtained merely by endowment and bestowal; following and obeying has no role in it. Mirza Qadiani has made people infidels by inventing the self-made term "Umati Nabi." Whether from within the Ummah or outside, whomever Allah Almighty wills, He may give this position to; he is a prophet, but now this door is closed. That is why Mirza Ji sometimes opens the window of truthfulness and sometimes looks for support in annihilation in the Messenger and in following you. All this is deception, fraud, and deceit. No Mirzai can tell you about the term "Umati Nabi" or the term "Masih Maood" from the old religion. Narrated Abu Huraira: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "The prophets used to govern and direct the affairs of the children of Israel. Whenever a prophet died, another would succeed him. But there will be no prophet after me. There will be successors." They said, "What do you command us to do?" He said, "Fulfill the pledge to the first one you pledge allegiance to, then to the next. Give them their rights, for Allah will ask them about what they were entrusted with." (Bukhari, Book of Prophets; Muslim, Book of Leadership) Translation: Hazrat Abu Huraira narrates that the Leader of the Universe (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that the politics and administration of the Children of Israel were managed by their prophets. When one passed away, another would take his place. And the true fact is that there will be no prophet after me, but there will be successors (and rulers), and they will be many. The Companions asked what your command is for us. He said, fulfill the right of the one you pledged allegiance to first (give them their due in this way, step by step). If they do not fulfill your rights, then Allah Almighty Himself will question them regarding the subjects. It is obvious that the prophecies of the Children of Israel were subordinate to Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him); they were neither independent nor legislative. But the Leader of the Universe (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also announced the closure and termination of it in his Ummah. There, all the work was done by the prophets; here, after the Prophet, the successors, rulers, scholars, and saints will do it. [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali)}. The Sixth Saying of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him): Maulana Abdul Hakeem: If there were to be a prophet after me, it would be Umar. (Tirmidhi Sharif) Translation: If there were to be a prophet after me, it would be Umar. You have already stated that Hazrat Umar was a Muhaddith, that he had conversations with them. But still he said that he is not a prophet and the only reason he gave was that there can be no prophet after me. Indeed, he who is the embodiment of noble virtues, the perfection of prophethood, and all the highest attributes of prophethood, and is superior to all the prophets and messengers, and is the crown and leader of all. Such a pure being deserves to come after all the prophets (peace be upon them) and be the seal of the office of prophethood. It is known that a Muhaddith cannot be a prophet nor can he be called one, and if anyone claims that he has been blessed with more conversations than Hazrat Umar, then he should get his brain treated. The Seventh Commandment of Janab Imam-ul-Anbiya (peace be upon him) Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: I have been given superiority over all the prophets in six things. I have been given comprehensive words, and I have been helped by fear, and spoils of war have been made lawful for me, and the whole earth has been made a mosque or a means of purification for me, and I have been sent to all the creation, and the prophets have been sealed with me. (Muslim, Book of Virtues) Translation: Hazrat Abu Hurairah narrates that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said that I have been given superiority over all the prophets (peace be upon them) in six ways. I have been given comprehensive words. And I have been helped through awe. Spoils of war have been made lawful for me, whereas in the previous nations, the fire of the sky used to burn the pile of spoils of war, and this was a sign of its acceptance, and the whole earth has been made a mosque and a means of purification for me (prayers can be offered everywhere on the earth and Tayammum can also be performed when necessary) and I have been sent to all the creation and all the prophets have been sealed with me (i.e. this series has ended and the fixed number has been completed). QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2405 In this blessed instruction, the last sentence is clear and explicit, in which there is no room for any Mirzaite interpretation or doubt. It is a clear command that with my coming, all the prophets have been terminated. The meaning of seal etc. cannot work here. Eighth instruction of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him It is narrated from Hazrat Abu Hurairah that you said: Verily I am the last of the prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques. (Muslim Sharif, Volume 1, 446 & Nasai Sharif). In the first part of this hadith sharif, the Leader of the Worlds, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, has explicitly stated that he is the last prophet. But The Mirzais are very happy that they have got an opportunity to change the meaning of the hadiths from the second part of this hadith. They say that just as thousands of mosques have been built after the Prophet's mosque, similarly, other prophets can come after you, but it is God's will that they be silenced and disgraced everywhere. Therefore, Imam Dailami, Ibn Banna and Imam Bazzar have narrated the same hadith and in it these are the words: "My mosque is the last of the mosques of the prophets." mosque (Kanz al-Umal). Behold, the hadith itself has explained the hadith and the Mirzais' happiness was reduced to dust. Interpretation of the Companions, may Allah be pleased with them From these narrations, you have also come to know the interpretation of the Companions, may Allah be pleased with them. No companion denied the meaning of any one hadith, and how could they do that? They were the ones who sacrificed their lives at the gestures of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. 2406 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 131st August, 1974 Consensus of the Ummah For thirteen hundred years, there has been agreement on these same meanings and on the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) being the Seal of the Prophets, among all religious scholars, narrators of hadith, reformers, and jurists; in fact, among the general Muslims. The claimant of prophethood was never asked what kind of prophethood he claimed, but was given the severest punishment. نقل اجماع ( نقل اجماع means نقل of consensus) (1) After the clear narrations of the Holy Quran and the interpretation of the Holy Prophet himself, then the continuous narrations of the Companions, there is no need to نقل of any consensus. Whereas no Companion denied this well-known and famous interpretation, even though it was related to disbelief and faith. So this in itself became the consensus of all the ancestors that with the arrival and mission of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), the number of prophets (peace be upon them) has been completed, and after the Seal of the Prophets, no prophet of any kind can be made under any name. And if it is accepted that the meaning of "Seal of the Prophets" and "There is no prophet after me" and "Seal of the Prophets" could not be revealed to the Companions, the Successors, and the perfect Muslims for thirteen hundred years despite all efforts and endeavors, then how can the Holy Quran be a book of guidance? God forbid, it would become a riddle, and then what اعتبار can be placed on today's new meanings? (2) It is in Tafsir Ruh al-Ma'ani: And his (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) being the Seal of the Prophets is what the Book speaks of, and the Sunnah confirms it, and the Ummah agrees upon it, so whoever claims خلاف is a disbeliever and should be killed if he أمر. (Ruh al-Ma'ani, Volume No. ے, p. (65)) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2407 Translation: And the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) being the last of the prophets is among those issues that the Quran has explicitly stated, and which the hadiths have clearly explained, and upon which the Ummah has reached a consensus. Therefore, one who claims otherwise will be considered a disbeliever. And if he does not repent but insists on his statement, he will be put to death. (3) Hujjat al-Islam Imam Ghazali has explained this issue in his book "Iqtisad" in this way: "Whoever interprets it (differently) is talking nonsense. The Ummah has a consensus that no prophet or messenger can come after him (the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). There is no kind of interpretation or specification in this." (4) Sharh Aqaid Nasafi has also stated on page 257 that the hadiths are Mutawatir (successively transmitted). On this issue, we suffice with this much, and at the same time, we mention the book "Maslak-e-Haq" by Hazrat Maulana Mufti Azam Pakistan Mufti Muhammad Shafi Sahib Karachi, in which the issue of the finality of Prophethood has been proven with a hundred verses, two hundred hadiths, and hundreds of sayings of the righteous predecessors. And it has completely shattered all the illusions and doubts of the opponents. Whoever wants to see the details should read this book. However, However, to shut the mouths of the Mirzais, we quote three statements of Mirza Ji himself. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani wrote in his book "Hamamatul Bushra" (published by Munshi Abdul Qadir Sialkoti, 1311 AH, page 20): 2408 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 (1) Because it contradicts the word of Allah, "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets." Do you not know that the Merciful Lord named our Prophet (peace be upon him) the Seal of the Prophets without exception, and our Prophet explained it clearly in his saying, "There is no prophet after me," for those who seek knowledge. ...And the revelation has ceased after his death, and Allah has sealed the prophets through him. Translation: Because it is against God's saying: "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets." Do you not know that God Almighty has named our Prophet as the Seal of the Prophets without exception, and our Prophet has explained it in the clear statement of "No prophet will come after me" for the seekers (after two lines). And the revelation has ceased after your death, and Allah Almighty has ended the prophets through you. From this statement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, it is known that after the death of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), the revelation has stopped and Allah Almighty has declared you the Seal of the Prophets without any exception. The second thing that is known is that this saying of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that "There is no prophet after me" is a clear interpretation of the Holy Quran. (2) Mirza Ji wrote in this book, Hammat-ul-Bushra: "And it is not permissible for me to claim prophethood and leave Islam and join the disbelievers." Translation: And it is not permissible for me to claim prophethood and leave Islam and join the disbelievers. That is, claiming prophethood is being a disbeliever. (3) Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets. Translation: Meaning Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not the father of any man among you. But he is the Messenger of Allah and the finisher. From Izalatul Auham, Part Two, 252, published by Lahore Art Press, Anarkali, December 20, 1951. Now the Mirzais should not debate the meaning of Khatamun Nabiyyin. The End of Prophethood or The Minting of Prophets (1) "A religion that does not make religion is incomplete." This is completely wrong; in fact, to be honest, it is wrong even according to Mirza Qadiani himself, because he wrote that, "I alone have been specified to receive the name of prophet. No one else was worthy of it, not even from the Companions to this day was anyone like Mirza," so he included this idea in his book Haqiqatul Wahi and also wrote that he would be the only one. So where is the religion that makes religion? This is just Mirza following his own desires and temptations. (2) And to say that your holy power mints prophets, and prophets will continue to be made by your seal, and to end prophethood is to stop and end God's mercy and blessings, is absolutely incorrect. Because whatever Allah Almighty has created in the world must come to an end. If a rope has one end, it also has another end. If a river has one bank, it ends when it reaches the other bank. If the day begins in the morning, it ends in the evening. If the world had a beginning, it will also have an end. If prophethood began with Hazrat Adam (peace be upon him), then it was increased until the Seal of the Perfections of Prophethood, Hazrat Khatamun Nabiyyin. to complete and finish in its entirety. Everything has a limit here. Allah Almighty says (Everything with Him is by measure). Although rain is a blessing, it is a blessing to the extent of need. If it rains continuously for a few days, everyone will pray to stop it. (3) Making religion is not perfection, but it is perfection to start it from the prophethood of Adam (peace be upon him) and bring it to the final perfection and finish it. It is not perfection to make and finish an imperfect prophet. (4) It is not the perfection of this religion that despite believing in all the components of this religion, millions of the Ummah become infidels after centuries for not believing in a claimant of prophethood, who has not been mentioned. Nor did Hazrat Rahmat-ul-Lil Alameen say anything to save all future generations from disbelief, while you gave news of dozens of other matters. Rather, by saying "There is no prophet after me," you seemed to prepare your Ummah not to acknowledge any prophet. If there was a prophet to come whose denial was disbelief, then, God forbid, did the Prophet not maintain a criminal silence? Rather, he arranged for his Ummah to become infidels. We belong to Allah, and to Him we shall return. (5) It is not perfection that the Ummah's connection with its perfect Prophet is indirect. Rather, it is perfection and better that the entire Ummah's connection with its Prophet remains direct. (6) In خاتم النبین, the connection of " خاتم" is with the predecessors and past prophets (peace be upon them), not with those who are entitled and those who are to come. Mirza Ji and his disciples said that the meaning of خاتم النبیین is that you are the seal of all prophets. are carved. And prophets are made by the power of your holiness. In fact, the central point of the circle of prophethood is your being. You yourself determined all the perfections of prophethood and brought them to perfection and ended them. That is why you came last, like the president of a meeting comes after all the arrangements for whom the meeting has been convened. For this reason, Adam (peace be upon him) was also brought after all the arrangements, for those arrangements were for you, like the creation of the earth and sky, and the sun and moon, etc. Then, when prophethood was to be ended, it was more appropriate to end it perfectly through a perfect person. That is why all the prophets in Jerusalem kept waiting for you to lead the prayer, and that is why you said: نحن الآخرون والسابقون Translation: We are the last and the first. And another Hadith which has been narrated by Ibn Abi Shaybah and Ibn Saad etc. كنت أول النبيين في الخلق و آخر هم في البعث Translation: I was the first prophet in creation and the last in being sent. And that is why in the hereafter too, the "Banner of Praise" will be given to you and all the prophets (peace be upon them) will entrust the matter of the Great Intercession to you. And a hadith has explained this, which is in Sharh al-Sunnah and Musnad Imam Ahmad: اني عند الله مكتوب خاتم النبيين و ان آدم لمنجدل في طينه Translation: I was the Seal of the Prophets in the sight of Allah when Adam (peace be upon him) was still in clay. 2412 NALIVIAL AVULINDER VITAMOLAN It does not only mean here that Allah Almighty knew this beforehand and this was predestined, because Allah Almighty knew every prophet and his time. Rather, it means that you were in a way granted this privilege and the honor of the seal of prophethood. This also shows that prophethood is a bestowal, not something earned. (7) The termination of prophethood with you is not a loss for the religion, but it is a great blessing from Allah Almighty. Allah Almighty has placed all nations on one side in the Quran and this entire nation on the other. Here are a few verses: كنتم خير امة اخرجت للناس وكذالك جعلنا كم امة وسطاً لتكونو اشهداء على الناس ويكون الرسول عليكم شهيداً فيكف اذا احنا من كل امة بشهيد بشهيد وحنا بك على هئو لاء شهيداً Translation: You are the best nation brought forth for mankind. And thus We have made you a moderate (and best) nation so that you may be witnesses over the people and the Messenger may be a witness over you. What will it be like when We bring a witness from every nation and make you a witness over them (all)? There are many such verses. In any case, if there is no discipline in numbers, it becomes a crowd. If there is discipline in it, it is a power. If abundance ends in unity, it is a connected and strong force. All the Prophets (peace be upon them) are under the authority of the Leader of the Worlds (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And this unity was manifested in Masjid al-Aqsa on the night of ascension. Allah Almighty has placed all nations on one side and your nation on the other because you are the last prophet and your nation is the last nation. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2413 (8) Prophets bring a Sharia and a book, or they explain and promote the old Sharia. Here, the work of completing the religion and Sharia is finished. "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." Translation: Today I have completed your religion for you and perfected my favor upon you. And I have approved Islam as your religion. God himself has taken the responsibility of the survival and protection of the Sharia. "Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an, and indeed, We will be its guardian." Translation: Indeed, We, yes We, have sent down this Quran and We will surely protect it. The work of politics and national administration has been entrusted to the Caliphs. It is in the Hadith Sharif: "The prophets used to manage the affairs of the Children of Israel. Whenever a prophet passed away, another would succeed him, but there will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs and they will be many (or as he said)." Translation: The Prophets used to manage the affairs of the Children of Israel. When one prophet passed away, another would come. But there is no prophet after me. However, there will be Caliphs, and they will be many. And you must remain loyal to the first Caliph. And "mubashirat" (good tidings) are a part of Prophethood like true dreams. It is not exactly Prophethood, nor is a part called the whole. A man's leg cannot be called a man, nor can his one eye be called a human being. These are parts of a human. Yes, all the details of a human being will be called a human being, like male, female, black, white. In any case, parts 2414 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 31st, 1974) And the difference between details is known to every literate person, or an animal can refer to a horse, donkey, or cat. But one cannot call a foot or head an animal. Now this Ummah does not need a new prophet or a new Sharia, and Sarwar-e-Alam (P.B.U.H.) closed the door to all kinds of prophethood by making a clear and explicit announcement. The Mirzais find pleasure in opposing Sarwar-e-Alam (P.B.U.H.). Sarwar-e-Alam (P.B.U.H.) himself has described the meaning of "Mubashirat" in the Hadith as children's dreams. (9) To say that it is a linguistic religion that does not create prophets, as Mirza Qadiani and his followers say, is completely wrong. Even the previous Ummahs could have said this. Then what is special about you? The previous Ummahs attained the remaining ranks of proximity except prophethood by obeying their respective prophets, and Allah Almighty bestowed prophethood upon whomever He willed. That religion did not create prophets, but rather the number of prophets was remaining and had to be completed. These Ummahs maintained their relationship and connection with their prophets. Similarly, it is Allah Almighty's will that this last Ummah continues to attain ranks of proximity until the Day of Judgment while maintaining its relationship with its Prophet of the Age. There should be no intermediary. This is what Satan said to Allah Almighty, that I am inherently better than Adam. Why should your choice and discretion be relied upon, that you make Adam prostrate? That is why Satan was cursed and rejected, and Adam (A.S.) chose servitude and obedience, and he was accepted. Here too, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani wrote that I am the only one designated to receive the name of prophet. No one else is entitled to it. It is as if he is holding on to Satan's legacy, asserting his entitlement and intensity. 2413 obedience proves. And now his misguided disciples are ruining their future by remaining attached to him. From here, the ignorance of Mirza Qadiani is also revealed, that earlier prophets became prophets directly. There was no involvement of following Moses or any other prophet in it. But here, I have attained the status of prophethood through following the Holy Prophet and extreme obedience. (Haqiqatul Wahi) Because the previous prophets also followed the religion of one prophet or another, and so do we. Prophethood is a gift and a bestowal. Wherever He saw the vessel suitable for it, He bestowed it. And He Himself bestowed the vessel with kindness. Allah knows best where to place His message. Translation: God knows best where to bestow His prophethood. But now, after completing the series of prophethood, He has closed it. All the prophets who were to come have come, and you have covered the entire distance of the circle of prophethood. And you have completed the Sharia. Now, if anyone else claims prophethood while your prophethood exists, it is like a foolish person who lights his lamp in broad daylight and wanders around looking for dung. The intellect of this foolish person can only be called the intellect of a buffalo. (10) Furthermore, this claimant insults the religion of Muhammad by claiming that only Mirza Qadiani could become a prophet by following the Leader of the World, peace and blessings be upon him, and that too one who makes obedience to the British obligatory, has handfuls (of sweets) filled by non-Mahram women, and declares millions of people of the Ummah who do not believe in him as infidels. And the one who has complete revelation. 2416 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August. 1974 He could not get Muhammadi Begum by making noise about fear, greed, and decisive destiny, Rather, he continued to enjoy the verbal pleasures of her marriage for twenty years and Kept telling and luring the blind but rich disciples. And with himself He also tried to falsely implicate Sarwar Alam (PBUH). And this revelation was such that Mirza Ji made it the standard of his truth and falsehood Had challenged the world. On what basis should we accept his words or gossip as true that my revelation Is like the Quran. Then such a person who calls his disbelievers the children of prostitutes. Writes his opponents as wild boars. Hazrat Pir Meher Ali Shah Sahib Calls Golra Sharif cursed, Hazrat Maulana Rashid Ahmad Gangohi, blind devil Writes, Maulvi Saadullah Council declares bad deeds. All scholars are of bad caste sect Refers to as Maulvi. And the blessed mention of Hazrat Hussain as a pile of dung Compares to, calls himself superior to Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). But all Declares himself to be the comprehensive of the attributes and perfections of the prophets. (This mouth and lentil) Similarly, he predicted that Abdullah Atham would die in fifteen months. When he did not die, he published a false announcement. That he had returned to the truth And when he died after 23 months, he announced that my prediction was that That liar will die in front of the child. Curse of Allah on the liars. May Allah give understanding to Nasir Ahmed and all Qadianis. Many good The fathers and grandfathers of men are passing away misguided. If they also repent and be true Become Muslims and hand over Mirza Qadiani to God. Money is now It has been enough; you have received respect as well. And if you think, as your boasting suggests, that some patron will save you, then we claim that no one will be able to save you from God's punishment. That time is gone when Qaleel Khan used to fly doves. You have tried in your statement to defame and humiliate ordinary Muslims. That is why we have written these few lines. (11) In "Khatam an-Nabiyyin," "Khatam" is attributed to "Nabiyyin." Here, the old prophets are in view. You (PBUH) ended the number of predecessors who came and went. Now, no one can receive prophethood after you. The meaning of "Khatam an-Nabiyyin" is not "Khatam al-Ahatein," that those who come will come with your seal. This is a lie against Allah, because who came with your seal, can Mirza Ji or his grandson Nasir Ahmad Sahib tell? Was your sacred power incomplete for thirteen hundred years without Mirza Ji? "Khatam an-Nabiyyin" refers to the old prophets, that you (PBUH) ended their number and completed the palace of prophethood. Now no one will be able to attain prophethood. This attribution is towards persons. For the end of prophethood and messengership, those blessed words are more appropriate which Imam Tirmidhi has narrated. That Hadith is: "Indeed, messengership and prophethood have been cut off. So there will be no messenger after me, nor a prophet." (The narrator says) This seemed difficult to the people, so he (PBUH) said, "But there are glad tidings." He said, "The dream of a Muslim, and it is a part of the parts of prophethood." (Tirmidhi) Translation: "Messengership and prophethood have been cut off. So now there will be no messenger after me, nor a prophet." (The narrator says) This seemed difficult to the people, so you (PBUH) 2418 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August said. But glad tidings remain. He inquired what is the meaning of glad tidings. You said. The dream of a Muslim and it is one part of the elements of prophethood. (Tirmidhi Sharif) This hadith has broken the back of all apostates. From which it is clearly known that after you, peace be upon him, neither can anyone be made a messenger who has a book or Sharia. Nor can anyone be made a prophet, even if he is a follower of another prophet and he is not given any new Sharia or new commandments. Just as the word Khatam-un-Nabiyeen ended the number of previous prophets. The blessed words of this hadith also revealed the truth of those who claimed later. Now neither can the revelation of prophethood come to anyone nor the revelation of messengership. Now to say that independent prophets have ended, non-independent remain. Or that those with Sharia will not come, but followers and non-legislative ones can come. All this is nonsense, blasphemy and mockery of religion. May Allah protect us. Amen. Mirza Ji also takes cover of Buruzi and shadow prophethood. Sometimes he becomes a prophet by being annihilated in the Messenger. Sometimes he takes the support of straws to become the promised Messiah. Sometimes he becomes Maryam. Then Mirza Ji menstruates. Then he becomes Jesus from Maryam. Sometimes he reveals his name as Muhammad and Ahmad in the sky. Sometimes he names himself Ibn Maryam, sometimes he adopts the form of Muhaddith and Mujaddid and sometimes he pastes the hadiths of Mahdi on himself, sometimes he becomes the incarnation of Krishna and sometimes Jai Singh Bahadur, sometimes he becomes Ain Muhammad, sometimes he is called Michel Messiah and sometimes superior to them, sometimes he becomes the place of hatred for man. Sometimes he submits a repentance letter in the English court and sometimes ...manifests his miracles greater than Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). In short, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib was a strange thing and an enigma. We consider this solely a feat of the British. May this feat be blessed to Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib. If this is not the case, then the deception that Satan has played with him is rarely played with anyone else. A Deception and Its Response The Mirzais present certain statements of Sheikh Akbar to prove that he too considers non-legislative prophethood to be extant. This is a blatant deception and scholarly ignorance. In fact, some saints say that communion and conversation with God Almighty is possible, which is also called prophethood in the dictionary. But they also say that neither can anyone claim prophethood, nor can he be called a prophet, nor is it allowed. This communion does not mean that he is appointed to explain the Sharia and attains the position of prophethood with God Almighty; they only call this communion non-legislative prophethood. Legislative prophethood is what they call every revelation of prophethood that contains commandments for the Sharia, new or old, and this can only be for the prophet. So, linguistically, they call divine communion non-legislative, which means that it has nothing to do with the Sharia revelation and the prophet's revelation. Prophet and Messenger is an office that is now over. There is no one equal to it. So, in the opinion of these saints, legislative prophethood includes both prophethoods that have ended: the one with the new Sharia and the one with the old Sharia. That is, they sometimes apply the term non-legislative to sainthood. But none of them has ever claimed prophethood, nor has he been allowed to announce being a prophet. If the Mirzais have the power, then prove the claim of prophethood of any saint. Here is a saying of Mirza Ji about the application and terminology of the saints... 2420 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Listen regarding this. Mirza Ji writes in his book Anjam Atham page 27/29. But, it should be remembered that as we have just stated, sometimes in God's revelations, such words are used metaphorically and figuratively in relation to some of His saints. And they are not to be taken literally. The whole dispute is this, which the ignorant, biased and have taken and pulled towards. The name of the coming Messiah, which in Sahih Muslim etc. from the holy Prophet's tongue, Nabi Allah (Prophet of Allah) has come out, it is in accordance with those metaphorical meanings which Sufis is accepted in the books of scholars and is a common idiom of divine conversations. Otherwise, after the Seal of the Prophets how can there be a prophet? Mirza Ji has committed a lot of fraud in this passage. For example, in the aforementioned passage he has written with reference to Sahih Muslim (that the name of the coming Messiah) whereas the word Messiah is not in Sahih Muslim. This term has been coined by Mirza Ji himself. But here we only have to to state that the words of Sheikh Akbar etc. which have come for non-legislative prophethood, are only due to divine conversations your term. Otherwise, the position of prophethood and the application of the name of prophet, even that they consider it impermissible. As Mirza Ji has clarified here. In any case, the Holy Quran has by stating Khatam-un-Nabiyeen (Seal of the Prophets) closed the door of prophets and the number that was fixed in the knowledge of Allah Almighty, its announced its completion. But Mirza Ji has interpreted Khatam-un-Nabiyeen to mean prophet-making, i.e., a prophet is made by following him. This is clearly such a confrontation with God Almighty that Satan had done. That O Allah, why do you make Adam prostrate? I am better than him, meaning He was not pleased with Allah Almighty's wisdom, expediency, pleasure, and will, but rather asserted his right. Due to this clear defiance and arguing, he became an infidel and rejected. Similarly, the door that Allah Almighty wants to close by saying Khatam-un-Nabiyeen. Mirza Ji, by interpreting it as prophet-making, opens it. want to keep it so that every "Gama Ghaseeta" (insignificant person) becoming "Fana Fi Al Rasool" (annihilated in the Prophet) can become a prophet. "The secret of the arena will come to light, and men will act accordingly." (12) The finality of Prophethood on the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is a great blessing of Allah on this Ummah. One Mirza became a false prophet, and chaos spread among all the Muslims. He calls seventy crore Muslims infidels, and they all consider him an infidel. If the Holy Prophet (PBUH) had not stopped the series of these false prophets and emphasized avoiding them, how many sects and how many communities would there be in the Ummah of Muhammad by now, who would call each other infidels. Therefore, the issue of the finality of Prophethood is a divine mercy. As it is in Tafsir Ibn Kathir: "And this is the greatest blessing of Allah upon this Ummah, that the Exalted God has completed their religion for them. Now they do not need any other religion nor any prophet other than their Prophet, may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him. And that is why He made him the Seal of the Prophets and sent him to mankind and jinn." Translation: And this is a very great blessing and favor of Allah Almighty upon this Ummah, that this Exalted God has completed their religion. Now they do not need any other religion, nor any prophet other than their prophet. And that is why He made him the Seal of the Prophets and sent him to the jinn and mankind. The matter is clear. It was written up to here that on August 8, 1974, Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, Imam of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya Rabwah, gave a statement before the Special Committee that no prophet came after the Holy Prophet (PBUH) for thirteen hundred years, nor will anyone come after Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. 2422 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August 14 Even if a follower is a prophet. When the respected Attorney General asked that Abu Al-Ata Sahib Jalandhari has written that your finality has opened a wide door. Your community For your followers, all those rewards are possible which the beneficiaries used to get earlier. Have you received it? So, before this bounty of the Prophet, has any prophet or follower come in thirteen hundred years? Will there be no prophet or will he come after Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib categorically answered this. Denied it and attributed Abu Al-Ata Sahib's statement only to rational possibility. That is, it can happen. But it will not happen and in this connection Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib quoted Maulana Ismail Shaheed. It is narrated that Allah Almighty has the power to create millions of angels like Gabriel and Muhammad in an instant. Although he believed that this would never happen, no one is like Muhammad Rasool Allah. Will be born. Rather, you are the seal of the prophets, it is only a description of God's power. After this statement of Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, the whole issue became clear. Enforcement of Prophethood and All the discussions about the components of prophethood are useless. Prophethood ended with the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Neither No prophet came in thirteen hundred years nor will come after Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, according to Mirza Nasir Ahmad. Only Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was made an Ummah Nabi because the one who is coming is called Nahi in four places in Muslim Sharif. It has been said, although there are reports of the descent of a Messiah in Muslim Sharif and hundreds of hadiths who is from heaven He will descend and kill the Dajjal, he will live in the world for forty years. The whole world Will become Muslim, then he will die. Since the beginning, millions of Muslims around the world have had the same It has been believed that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) was raised alive to the sky and near the Day of Judgment. He will descend again and Mirza Ji says that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) has died and I am the coming Messiah. Two Problems Here are two problems: (1) Whether حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام (Hazrat Isa A.S.) has actually passed away or is alive and present in the sky and will descend again in the last era. (2) The second issue is that if, for the sake of argument, he has passed away, then can Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani be the same आने वाला مسیح ابن مریم (the coming Masih Ibn-e-Maryam) about whom there is news in hundreds of Hadiths. Here, we will first discuss the second issue. Suppose حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام (Hazrat Isa A.S.) has passed away, then can Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani be the आने वाला مسیح (the coming Masih)? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani! In our opinion, this claim is false, a deception, and tantamount to mockery and ridicule of the Quran and Hadith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani cannot even be a Muslim, let alone مسیح ابن مریم (Masih Ibn-e-Maryam). Please note the following: (1) A non-Mahram woman named Bano used to massage Mirza Ji's fists at night. (Seerat-ul-Mahdi, page 210) (2) Women used to guard Mirza Ji at night. (Seerat-ul-Mahdi, Part 3, page 213) (3) Mirza Ji made efforts to obtain a virgin girl named Muhammadi Begum. But Muhammadi Begum's relatives opposed and got her married elsewhere. Mirza Ji had his son Fazal Ahmad divorce his wife, who was the niece of Ahmad Beg, son of Muhammadi Begum. (Seerat-ul-Mahdi, Part 1, page 29). (3) When Muhammadi Begum got married elsewhere, and Mirza Ji's wife, the mother of Fazal Ahmad, cut off relations with him, Mirza Ji divorced her. (Seerat-ul-Mahdi, Part 1, page 34). (5) In connection with Muhammadi Begum, Mirza Ji disinherited and disowned his son Sultan Ahmad from his property because he also continued to make opposing efforts. (Seerat-ul-Mahdi, Part One, Page 34) (6) Mirza Ji lied to become a prophet, claiming that Imam Rabbani wrote in his letters that when divine conversations become frequent, then he is called a prophet. However, the word in that letter is not "prophet" but "Muhaddith". And Mirza Ji himself, before he became obsessed with becoming a prophet, wrote the word "Muhaddith" in Izala-tul-Auham, page 306. Now, in the fervor of prophethood, he lied about Imam Rabbani, and that is why he did not include the reference to the letters. (7) Mirza Ji also falsely attributed to Imam Bukhari that "In the last era, there will be a voice from the sky regarding some caliphs: 'God is the Caliph of Allah, the Mahdi.'" Now think, what status does this hadith have, being in a book that is the most authentic book after the Book of Allah? Can any Mirza'i show this hadith in Bukhari Sharif? (8) Mirza Ji lied about Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH) that ten thousand Jews were killed in one day by his command. In this regard, some Mirza'is offer a lame excuse that the scribe actually added an extra zero in the number ten thousand. This is a misrepresentation because Mirza Ji wrote in his book that several thousand Jews were killed in one day. All of this is a lie and unnecessarily defames Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH). Otherwise... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2425 After the Battle of the Trench, when Banu Qurayza surrendered, they themselves had said that Saad bin Muadh should decide our fate. He gave the verdict according to the Torah, under under which four hundred or six hundred men were killed. These were the Jews who were always against Islam. used to conspire. If they had succeeded in the Battle of the Trench, Thousands of Muslim men, women, and children would have been massacred, and All the Muslims of the Arabian Peninsula would have been martyred. (9) Mirza Ji made a prediction for Deputy Abdullah Atham to fool the public. He will die within fifteen months, provided he does not return to the truth. But Atham did not die in 15 months (Jang Muqaddas, page 211). (10) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani gave vulgar abuses to his opponents, which are written separately. Have gone. (11) Mirza Ji wrote curses on his opponents, but wrote a full thousand times and each time Along with it, he kept writing the numeral (Noor-ul-Haq, pages 158 to 162). However, the Bhatiyari of Lucknow used to end the matter by saying "a lakh curses." Now someone There may be a Mirzai who earns reward by reading these four pages of curse curse. (13) Mirza first became just a preacher, then a Mujaddid, then a likeness of the Messiah, then he himself became Seesay Wanod and when Seeing that some people are stuck, he became a prophet. However, this gradation itself is imaginary and It reflects a fabricated scheme (see Appendix Claims of Mirza. 1 (13) Mirza Ji tried to become every great person mentioned in any book 7: He is the one to come. Therefore, he became the likeness of Krishna. (Seerat-ul-Mahdi, Part I). (14) He became Krishna and was called Rod Ko Pal. 2426 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 (15) He is called Singh Bahadur. (16) Mahdi, Messiah, Haris, Wajal are Persian names, rather he affixed the names of all the prophets (peace be upon them) to himself, see Zad-e-Mirza for reference. (17) Mirza Ji mentioned three thousand miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and ten lacs of his own. (Barahin Ahmadiyya Fifth, page 56). (18) He called himself superior to Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) (Dafe-ul-Bala, page 39). (19) He compared the mention of Hazrat Imam Hussain to a pile of dung. (Ijaze Ahmadi, page 82) (20) Mirza Ji announced that his marriage with a non-Mahram girl had taken place in the heavens and said that God had called him "spouse." (That We have married you to this girl.) (21) He said that there is nothing greater than our prophecy to test our truth and falsehood. (Dafe-ul-Waswadis, page 288) whereas this prediction of his proved to be wrong and after keeping him disappointed for twenty years, it finally proved him a liar. (22) Mirza Ji said that my marriage with Muhammadi Begum is a fixed and certain destiny. There is no one who can stop it. (23) Mirza Ji also wrote that God has said to me that I will remove every obstacle and bring that woman back to you (Izala-e-Auham, page 1053, Waqe-ul-Wasawas, page 286). (24) He also wrote that once he fell ill and was about to die when he remembered the prophecy, then God consoled him not to doubt it. This will happen. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2427 Then I understood that when the prophets begin to despair, God consoles them in this way. (Izala al-Awam, page 1054). (25) Mirza Ji also wrote that this (Muhammadi Begum), whether in a virgin state or a widow, God will bring her back to me. (Zalata al-Awam, page 1053). (26) He continued to make this prediction for twenty consecutive years, comforting the child with fresh revelations from his disciples and fooling the public. But in the end, he passed away without achieving his goals. (27) Mirza Ji falsely accused God Almighty of marrying him to this Muhammadi Begum. If God had performed the marriage, how could anyone else have married her? Furthermore, neither Mirza Ji nor his disciples pursued a case of marriage upon marriage. (28) After the marriage of Muhammadi Begum with Sultan Muhammad, how did God solemnize the marriage with Mirza Ji? (29) And when God had solemnized the marriage, how could He allow her to marry another? It is clear that the revelation of the heavenly marriage was a false accusation against God Almighty, which is blatant blasphemy. (30) Mirza Ji wrote, "If Muhammadi Begum does not come into my marriage and this prophecy is not fulfilled, then I will be worse than the worst." Did he not become worse than the worst in this way? Can the interpretation of "worse than the worst" not be the harshest possible? And can he not be called an infidel who falsely accuses Allah? (31) When this prophecy was not fulfilled, did he not prove to be a liar according to his own set standards? Whereas Mirza Ji called this prophecy his truthfulness or 2428 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 131st August, 1974 had proved him to be a liar and a man who tells such a big lie Claims to be equal to Jesus Christ or Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, may God bless him and grant him peace. (32) Mirza Sahib has declared Jihad as forbidden and propagated this Fatwa all over the world for the sake of the British. (Sitara-e-Qaisera, page 3). (33) Mirza Sahib declared obedience to the British as a part of Islam (last advertisement of Shahadat-ul-Quran). (34) Mirza Sahib gave prayers to the British who were trying to humiliate Muslims all over the world (see Sitara-e-Qaisera and Tohfa-e-Qaisera). (35) Mirza called himself the amulet and talisman of the British Government. (36) Mirza Sahib used to eat luxurious food. Roasted meat of birds, roasted chicken etc. (Sirat-ul-Mahdi, Part 1, page 5) (37) Calling the train the donkey of the Dajjal, he himself used to ride on this donkey by paying the fare. (38) Mirza Sahib changed the meaning of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen and declared you as a prophet maker, but then not a single prophet was made, only he himself became a prophet. (39) The government had appointed a soldier for Mirza Sahib in Qadian (Sirat-ul-Mahdi, Part 1, page 275). (40) Mirza Sahib was guarded by Englishmen till Jhelum (Sirat-ul-Mahdi, Part 3, page 289) (31) An Englishman inquired whether Mirza Sahib had also appointed someone as his successor like great people. 2428 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August 194 A man who tells such a big lie can claim to be equal to Jesus Christ or Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). (32) Mirza Sahib has declared Jihad as forbidden and spread this fatwa all over the world for the sake of the British. (Sitara-e-Qaisara, page 3). (33) Mirza Sahib declared obedience to the British as a part of Islam (last advertisement of Shahadat-ul-Quran). (34) Mirza Sahib prayed for the British, who were trying to humiliate Muslims all over the world (see Sitara-e-Qaisara and Tohfa-e-Qaisara). (35) Mirza called himself the amulet and protector of the British Government. (36) Mirza Sahib used to eat luxurious food, roasted bird meat, roasted chicken, etc. (Sirat-ul-Mahdi, Part I, page 5). (37) He called the train the donkey of the Dajjal (Antichrist) and then rode on this donkey himself by paying the fare. (38) Mirza Sahib changed the meaning of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen (the Seal of the Prophets) and declared you as a prophet-maker, but then not a single prophet was made, and he himself became a prophet. (39) The government had appointed a soldier for Mirza Sahib in Qadian (Sirat-ul-Mahdi, Part I, page 275). (40) Mirza Sahib was guarded by Englishmen up to Jhelum (Sirat-ul-Mahdi, Part III, page 289). (41) An Englishman inquired whether Mirza Sahib had also appointed someone as his successor like great men. NECAMATAN ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2429 (42) Mirza Ji wrote in a court that he would not publish such revelations in the future, as if he wrote a letter of repentance. (43) Mirza Ji published certificates and letters from the British, boasting and obliging the British to gain benefits (Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, Seerat-ul-Mahdi, etc.). (44) Mirza Ji described the war of Shah Ismail Shaheed with the Sikhs as mischievous. (45) Mirza presented his father's help and loyalty in the Jihad of 1857 to the British, boasted about it, and proved his family to be loyal to the British (Sitara-e-Qaisara, page 3). (46) Mirza declared the War of Independence of 1857 as illegitimate and compared the invaders to thieves and robbers. (47) Mirza Ji wrote that the one who is a liar between Maulvi Sanaullah and me will die. So, he died in front of Maulvi Sanaullah, and thus the Quranic decision of his being a liar was made. (48) Mirza Ji prepared such medicines in which only rubies worth two thousand rupees were added (nowadays their price may be thousands of rupees). He was the very Muhammad in whose house not even a fire was lit. (49) To make his followers fully devoted, Mirza Ji also made this claim that so much of God's word has been revealed to me that if all of it were written down, it would not be less than ten parts. (Tariqat-ul-Wahi, page - 39) 2430 NAHUNAL ASSEMBLE VILANDIAN ......mg--- .. What does "part of the word of God" mean and why did Mirza Ji hide it, while the rest was published. (50) Mirza Ji has insulted the prophets, as you will know under this title and from the claims of Mirza Ji. (51) Mirza Ji has called his revelation as definitive as the Quran. Is twenty years of false and deceptive revelation can be considered as definitive as the Holy Quran. And how can someone remain incapable of understanding the meaning of the new revelation for twenty years or until death. We challenge the Mirzais whether a person who denies a definitive matter can be forgiven by saying that he is outside the Islamic nation. The Mirzais themselves admit this They acknowledge that in previous centuries, so-and-so were punished by the fatwas of the scholars. If they cannot prove it and will not prove it definitively, then it is known It turns out that the matter of being declared a disbeliever and outside of Islam and remaining in the Islamic nation is a fabrication. And the Mirzais have only created a pretense to save themselves. (52) All this is a lie, fabrication and near that the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was obtained through following the Prophet and being completely فنافی الرسول because whether it is Muhaddithiyat (talking to God Almighty) or prophethood, it is obtained purely through the grace of God Almighty. There is absolutely no involvement of action and earning in this. Mirza Qadiani himself, has written acknowledging this fact in his book (Hammatul Bushra page 82, published in 1311 AH, printed by Munshi Ghulam Qadir Sialkoti). There is no doubt that being a Muhaddith (one who narrates Hadith) is purely a gift from Allah, and it cannot be attained through any kind of effort or action, just like the status of Prophethood. That is, just as Prophethood is not the result of any action or acquisition, similarly, (being a Muhaddith is also not). Mirza Qadiani, by saying "like the status of Prophethood," has further clarified this fact that a Muhaddith and a Prophet cannot be made as a result of any action. It is clear from this that if Mirza Sahib has received Prophethood, as Mirza Nasir Ahmad and all Mirzais, and even Mirza Qadiani himself, say, then it is purely a divine gift and divine love, just as the previous prophets used to receive. And there was no involvement of following the Prophet (Muhammad) or being absorbed in the Prophet in this Prophethood or being a Muhaddith. And it is blatant blasphemy that anyone can become a prophet after the Prophet (Muhammad), or that anyone should be considered a prophet. Mirza Sahib cannot become a prophet by claiming perfect love and complete adherence to Muhammad, nor can he become Jesus by bearing the name of Jesus, son of Mary. "One cannot become Jesus by the attestation of a few donkeys." Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, don't be upset. On page 91, line 8 of the concise statement that you, as the Imam of the Ahmadiyya community, presented before the National Assembly Committee, you wrote that: "In this way, he is not prevented from acquiring and benefiting from the light of the Prophethood of Muhammad... Due to acquiring the lights of Muhammad, he also possesses the perfections of Prophethood." This is completely wrong and absolutely contrary to the aforementioned statement and agreed belief of your grandfather, Mirza Ji Qadiani, and is a pretense for a false prophethood. The Status of Fatwas of Kufr (infidelity) This title was created by Mirza Nasir Ahmad on page 22 of his affidavit. From this, it appears that Mirza Nasir Ahmad is shaken by the instruction of the "Sawaad-e-Azam" (the great majority). The aforementioned Mirza, by quoting the fatwas of various schools of thought of Muslims against each other, has virtually provided an opportunity for the world of disbelief to laugh at Muslims. Otherwise, the world of disbelief, even in this dire state, is trembling before the Muslims, and they are afraid of their unity and trying to create discord. Mirza Nasir Ahmad knows that the "Sawaad-e-Azam" (great majority) of Muslims considers him an infidel, so he wrote on page 23, line number 9 of the affidavit that if any one sect is specifically considered, then in contrast, all other sects will become the "Sawaad-e-Azam" (great majority), and in this way, one by one, against each sect, the fatwa of Kufr (infidelity) of the remaining "Sawaad-e-Azam" (great majority) will continue to be proven. The deception and falsehood in this statement are obvious. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib should know: (1) Firstly, no single school of thought or ideology has jointly issued a harsh fatwa against any other sect. These are certain individuals, and such individuals can be found in every sect. (2) Some individuals undoubtedly hold high positions, but they exercise great caution in their rulings. (3) Some fatwas are based on false reports, for example, the accusation against Deobandis that, according to them, God lies. However, this is a clear act of infidelity according to everyone. In fact, the matter is only this much, which Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib himself has admitted that Shah Ismail Shaheed said that Allah Almighty can create millions of angels in an instant. Like Gabriel, He can create crores of prophets like Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mirza Nasir Ahmad confessed that Shah Ismail Shaheed considered the Holy Prophet to be the Seal of the Prophets and believed that no prophet could come after him, but only the power of Allah Almighty has been described. Similarly, this humble person, Hazarvi, himself had a conversation with some Barelvi scholars. They did not disagree at all with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) being human, and how could they? While it is said so in the Quran, and no individual in the world can deny that the Leader of the Worlds (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is from the descendants of Adam. As for his status and rank, it is beyond our understanding, intellect, and imagination. Similarly, Akhtar Hazarvi discussed the presence and observability of the Prophet with the Barelvi gentlemen, and they explained its essence as the knowledge of the unseen. There is also a discussion on indirect and direct knowledge of the unseen, then there is also a discussion on whether it is equal to the knowledge of God Almighty or not. In any case, Hazrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi Deobandi himself refused to declare the Barelvis as infidels. There are Shia gentlemen; the saying of alteration of the Quran exists in their books, but today no Shia friend confesses to the alteration of the Quran. As for their attitude regarding the glory of the Companions, Maulana Mazhar Ali Azhar (Ahrar leader) who went to Lucknow in connection with the Tehreek Madah Sahaba and he gave a speech that when Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) offered prayers behind those Companions for nearly twenty years, then why should we not follow them? In any case, no fatwa has been issued against the Shia sect as a sect or by it as a sect. This is the condition of the Allah-Hadith gentlemen. 2434 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 (4) Moreover, these fatwas are mostly from the British era. When the British landed their troops in Constantinople, the capital of Turkey, they obtained a fatwa in their favor from the Turkish Caliph. It was not easy to know the intrigues of the British, nor is it now. (5) The perfect religion of Islam is not like Hinduism, where Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru can be an atheist and still be a Hindu. Sanali Dharji may worship idols, and Aryas may be against idol worship, yet relationships continue. The religion of Islam has boundaries. Whoever crosses these boundaries will obviously be considered outside these boundaries. But after the disintegration of Islamic unity, Islamic government, and the Caliphate, chaos arose in various classes, and that is why Mirza Nasir has been able to narrate very few events from the Islamic era. Even in these, there is an element of goodwill in some places and ill-intent in others. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib! When no sect, as a sect, calls another infidel, how can they all together call one infidel? And the fact is that those who believe in the Companions, in accordance with the "Sawad-e-Azam," can never do such a thing. They have never done it to this day, nor will they do it in the future. (6) Many have fatwas against others on minor issues. For example, one party accuses the other of insulting the prophets (peace be upon them). But the other party denies accepting this accusation; rather, they agree in principle that insulting the prophets (peace be upon them) is disbelief. The debate is only whether this statement constitutes an insult or not. YOVIND KROVLUGNDIAL DIDE USSIUN are staying (7) Their disagreement is based on similar accusations or misunderstandings, or different issues of this kind. Now listen to the state of the Mirzais (1) But the disagreement of Muslims with Mirzais is fundamental, they openly call Mirza Qadiani superior to Hazrat Isa (A.S.). (2) They openly consider Mirza Ji as a prophet after the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and in this way, they break the seal of Khatam-e-Nabuwat and hide it with wrong interpretations. (3) They oppose the unanimous beliefs of all sects of Muslims for thirteen hundred years. (4) And all the sects, Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahl-e-Hadith, Shia, Sunni, all of them call and consider these Mirzais as infidels. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib himself has quoted everyone's fatwas against him and this is a clear proof of the truth that even after being different from each other, all of them consider the Mirzais as absolute infidels and non-Muslim minorities. (5) Then Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani also calls all Muslims who do not believe in him as the promised Messiah as infidels (he got this courage from the patronage of the British, otherwise he would never have dared to say such a thing). (6) And Mirza Ji says by the order of God that one who even doubts Mirza Ji being the Messiah should not offer prayers behind him. (7) Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad clearly declared all Muslims as infidels. (8) All Muslim sects together call the Mirzais as infidels and the Mirzais declare the Muslims as infidels and order to separate relations and prayers, so now this 2430 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 31st, 1974 how can they live as one nation. Why do they seize Muslim rights and plans in the name of Muslims, and why do they hide their reality? (1) This statement answered two things. First, the status of the contents of the fatwas of infidelity, that all sects together can never be against one sect become the majority, nor will they, nor can they. (b) Secondly, the allegation that Mirzais level against each other of issuing fatwas is also clarified and the Mirzais fueling these differences is nothing less than enmity towards Islam, and humiliating Muslims all over the world. is tantamount to. Some other allegations Similarly, let us also answer Mirza Nasir Ahmad's memorandum, page 149, which he mentioned under the title (Some Other Allegations). In this he has mentioned the Mirzais not offering prayers behind Muslims. In this topic Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has been in a bad state. To get rid of it, locality - 154 From line 13 to page 162, by copying, he has written that behind whom among them we pray, whom so-and-so has called a disbeliever and prevented from praying behind them. If we pray, then" we become disbelievers according to the one who issued the fatwa, if we don't pray, then a non-Muslim minority. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib is badly stuck in this question, he does not clearly say that how can we offer prayers behind Muslims how can we pray when they are deniers and disbelievers of a prophet. While Mirza Qadiani has, by the command of God Almighty has forbidden praying behind the doubter. It is as if Mirza Ji's denial of prophethood and considering him a fabricator is the reason for not praying. The rest is verbiage, Mirza Nasir Ahmad The Sahib has fabricated stories; the ruling against other groups not praying behind anyone is not due to the denial of prophethood. That's why, despite their differences, they are united in the Mirzais' cause. (1) Recognition of the Essence of God - Page 39 (2) The Exalted and Sublime Status of the Great Quran - Page 55 (3) The Status of the Seal of the Prophets, Peace Be Upon Him - Page 75 Of these three topics, no Muslim denies the first two. An answer has been written to your topic, and in reality, this entire discussion is to confuse the Muslim community, otherwise the debate is not about the coming of any prophet. It is only about the person of Mirza Qadiani. As for what has been written concerning the other two topics, although the topic is accepted by Muslims, the real purpose behind quoting these statements and the sayings of Mirza Ji is to establish the personality of Mirza Qadiani and portray him as a Muhaddith, a prophet, and the Promised Messiah, and there is no other purpose. This is evident from page 42, line number 1; page 43, line 12; Muhammad - page 44, line number 5 and line number 15; page 38, line number 2; page 57, line number 3; page 58, line number 8; page 61, line number 4; page 25, line number 18; page 70, line number 3. Mirza Ji has only tried to clear the way for himself. The Status of the Seal of the Prophets, page 29 to page 36 Under this heading, the Mirzais have unnecessarily changed the meaning of the Seal of the Prophets and have engaged in brain-racking by proving the survival and continuation of non-legislative prophethood through the sayings of religious elders. When you have accepted that no prophet could become one before Qadiani, nor will come after him, then the debate over the meaning of the Seal of the Prophets is futile. The only debate is whether the coming one... 1430 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN The Messiah is truly the Messiah, son of Mary, that is, the Messenger of Allah, who is alive in the heavens and will descend to kill the Antichrist, and after living for forty years, will pass away and be buried in the tomb of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Or he has already died and the coming Messiah (to ward off the evil eye) is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. While explaining the meaning of Khatam-un-Nabiyyin, Mirza Nasir Ahmad mentioned the names of Maulana Muhammad Qasim Nanotvi, Sheikh Akbar, Mulla Ali Qari, etc., saying that they consider non-legislative prophethood to be remaining. Whereas the intention of these gentlemen is only that when Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) descends, he will follow our Sharia and will not bring any Sharia nor will he run it. For this reason, they have written some words. Challenge to Nasir Ahmad If this is not the case, then we challenge Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib to show from the book of any saint or scholar that so-and-so person has become a true prophet after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Mirza Sahib himself has confessed that no true prophet came before Mirza Qadiani, so the debate is over. Why do you confuse Muslims in the meanings of Khatam-un-Nabiyyin and reject the unanimous meanings of thirteen centuries. Mirza Ji and Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib himself have also confessed that no prophet will come after Mirza Qadiani until the Day of Judgment, so have the entire discussion on this that hundreds of hadiths about the descent of the Messiah, son of Mary, and his rule over the entire world and his death after forty years, are wrong or correct. We ourselves will prove from the sayings of Sheikh Akbar and Mulla Ali Qari, etc., that Hazrat Messiah, son of Mary, is in heaven and he will descend in the last era when this Gentlemen, they themselves do not accept anyone else as a prophet, and they say that the same Messiah, son of Mary, will descend from the sky, so Mirza Qadiani is proven to be a liar even according to them. Therefore, we will not discuss this topic much. However, the chapter written under the title of "The Finality of Prophethood" was written before the aforementioned confession of Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib. Readers should also take a look at that. In the following pages, we present sample references regarding Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, his claims, insults to the prophets (peace be upon them), his moral character, his blasphemous views about Jihad, his humility and loyalty in the English court. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani According to himself, he was an unknown man from a Mughal family in Qadian, a town in the Gurdaspur district. He became employed in connection with employment. But due to necessity, he participated in the Mukhtari (law clerk) exam, in which he failed. According to the standards of that time, he knew Urdu, Arabic, and Persian. When he failed the Mukhtari exam, he adopted another method. He started debates with Christians and Aryas and collected a lot of money from the public by publishing advertisements for some books. He became a preacher of Islam, then a Mujaddid (reformer) and a Ma'mur (appointed one). After that, he claimed to be a "likeness of the Messiah" and strongly denied being the promised Messiah (Izala-e-Auham), but after only a few days, he became the promised Messiah. This is his own coined term. Only the Messiah or Jesus, son of Mary, is mentioned in the books. At first, he denied the claim of prophethood, but rather declared it as disbelief (Hamamat-ul-Bushra). But when he got enough disciples, he claimed prophethood. He described his miracles to be greater than those of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). And he told lies up to a million. He knew that it was difficult to be a prophet in the Muslim nation, so to fulfill his desire, he took the route of the descent of the Messiah, son of Mary. He took the cover of Hadith, but since for thirteen hundred years, Muslims had a unanimous belief that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) is alive and present in the heavens, and near the Day of Judgment, he will descend, kill the Dajjal, and serve the religion of Islam. Therefore, he felt the need to prove the death of Hazrat Masih (peace be upon him) from the Quran and Hadith. And with weak arguments, he made a few Westernized individuals his followers. To prove the death of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) and to become the Messiah himself, he had to go through great lengths. He prayed for the British and spread advertisements by printing and writing articles prohibiting Jihad in all Muslim countries. Now, what shortage of money could he have? But he had to face great humiliation in the face of the scholars of truth. Meanwhile, he became obsessed with marrying a minor girl named Muhammadi Begum. And imitating the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), he announced his revelation: "We have married you (on the throne or in the heavens) to Muhammadi Begum." Perhaps he was punished for this imitation, and Muhammadi Begum's relatives married her to a person named Sultan Muhammad. After that, Mirza Ji continued to receive grand, self-made revelations that he would turn her (Muhammadi Begum) towards him. But all his twenty-year efforts and prophecies in the form of revelation turned out to be false. Although Mirza Ji announced that his marriage with her is a confirmed and irreversible destiny, and in case of its non-fulfillment, he is worse than the worst and a liar. But finally, in 1908, this unfortunate man passed away. This prophecy ruined him and exposed the falsehood of his Messiahship. This man was a special loyalist of the British. Wherever the British went, his movement also went. It could not go to Turkey, Afghanistan, and Hejaz. In Egypt and Syria, as long as there were Western influences, this kept buzzing around. When the revolution came, these countries outlawed them and confiscated their offices. The Jewish office in Haifa, Palestine, still exists. Recently, representatives of the Islamic world exposed the claims of Islam by the Mirzais in Hijaz, the holy land. The Viceroy of India appointed Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan Mirzai as a member of his Executive Council. Now the Mirzais had a great opportunity to trap Muslims. When Pakistan was formed, Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan was in charge of the Ministry of External Affairs. Various positions were seized by Mirzais. When the British left, the American government mistakenly thought that the flag bearers of religion in Pakistan were Mirzais. Khawaja Nazimuddin (late) stated in the 1953 Tehrik-e-Khatm-e-Nabuwwat that if he removed Zafarullah Khan, America would not provide wheat. The said Chaudhry Sahib filled the embassies abroad with Mirzais. Thank God, when he left the country, some other Mirzais made a mess of things. Eventually, due to political movements, Air Marshal Zafar Chaudhry was removed by the Honorable Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Prime Minister of Pakistan, satisfying millions of Muslims. British Influence After the Formation of Pakistan It was written in our destiny that after the formation of Pakistan, the Governor of the Frontier Province would be British. The Commander-in-Chief of the entire Pakistani army was Mr. Gracey, a British officer, while the Governor-General of India was Lord Mountbatten. During Mr. Gracey's time, an army of Mirzais was formed, called the Furqan Battalion, which Mr. Gracey later disbanded after strong demands from Muslims, but with immense praise. Major General Nazir Ahmed was at the forefront in the Kashmir war; he was the brother-in-law of Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan, and eventually, Shaheed-e-Millat Liaquat Ali Khan's conspiracy. 2442 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August 1974 Was arrested in a case and separated from his job. It is surprising that after some time this criminal was made the "Mayor" of Lahore Corporation, against which Ghaus Hazarvi raised his voice in the West Pakistan Assembly in 1962. Now there is no need to state how the Mirzaite sect slowly became a viper in the sleeve for Muslims by occupying thousands of posts. The rights of our children were destroyed, a war of beliefs started which caused great damage to religion. One thing sheds some light on this that Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan said before the Munir Commission in the 1953 Tehreek-e-Khatam-e-Nabuwat that when the late Liaquat Ali Khan Sahib used to go abroad, he would entrust the portfolio of Prime Minister to me. While leaving the United India, the British paid the right of Mirza'i loyalty in such a way that the English Governor of Punjab, Sir Moody, gave them a very large piece of land near Chiniot for a pittance, which is endowed in the name of Anjuman Ahmadiyya. But Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood treated this land like personal property. He built Bahishti Maqbara here and ran the business of prophethood here. Current riots and assembly Now that the Mirzais attacked the college students at Rabwah station on May 29, 1974, and beat them up. So the country which was already against them. Which Mr. Munir Sahib, Hajj Inquiry Court, had already pointed out. A dangerous stir started and a flood of resentment came against them. We then said in the National Assembly and before the Lahore Tribunal that It is possible that the Mirzais committed the act at Rabwah Station with the conspiracy of the enemies of Pakistan So that riots occur in the country and the enemy takes advantage of it. One instance of this is when the Mirzais opened fire on peaceful Muslim processions. The public government, in view of public demand, asked the assembly to determine the religious position of the Mirzais in this regard. First, a few things are presented as an introduction. Then the issue of the finality of Prophethood will be discussed. An Abundance of Corrupt Beliefs (1) When Mirza Qadiani resolved to become the promised Messiah himself, he had to deny hundreds of verses, hadiths, and Islamic traditions, or make ridiculous interpretations of them, in order to prove the death of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). (2) Since the coming Messiah was a prophet and Mirza Ji's cloak was completely empty of the requirements of Islam, he took cover behind the following of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and became his subordinate prophet. Similarly, he also had to prove non-independent and non-legislative prophethood, and he had to fabricate flimsy arguments against hundreds of verses, hadiths, and the unanimous decision of the Ummah regarding the finality of Prophethood. (3) Since Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), according to the unanimous belief of all Muslims, was taken alive to heaven, Mirza Ji, while proving it impossible to go to heaven, also denied the physical ascension (Mi'raj) of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). (4) According to some, he was raised to heaven after sleeping for a few minutes or seconds, and the Christians wrote that he was resurrected and taken to heaven like them. Just as the Holy Quran mentions حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام's miracle of reviving the dead, Mirza Ji had to deny those verses as well, which mention reviving the dead in the world according to the command and statement of the Quran, and there are many such verses in the Quran. (5) Since حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام had miracles and this poor fellow was completely empty-handed, he outright denied those miracles of حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام as well. (6) Since his prophecies turned out to be false, he wanted to implicate the rest of the prophets (peace be upon them) and even the Leader of the World (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), saying that they too sometimes did not understand the meaning of their revelation and inspiration. He even went so far as to accuse that once the prophecy of four hundred prophets proved to be wrong. (7) He had to go to great lengths to become the Messiah, son of Mary. Sometimes he became Mary, then he was born from Mary and became عیسی ابن مریم himself. Sometimes he became the Messiah by proving spiritual and moral resemblance. Sometimes he became the Messiah by calculating the Abjad. Sometimes he said that the opponents wanted to see his menstruation, but where was it now? It has now become a child. In this way, Mirza Ji found a way to enter the Christian status from the status of Mary. Sometimes he became the Messiah by taking the support of manifestation and incarnation. Then he had to fabricate the meanings of hundreds of narrations of the descent of the Messiah from his own side. QALIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSIONS (8) Since Mirza Ji was eager to become the Messiah, son of Mary, and the entire Ummah was not ready to accept anyone other than the Messiah, son of Mary, Hazrat Isa, he took cover behind following Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH). That is why he became the manifestation of all your attributes; rather, he had to pretend to be dissolved in the Messenger and united in essence with Hazrat Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH). (9) Sometimes he called himself a Mujaddid by taking the support of the narration of Mujaddid, and sometimes he became a Muhaddith and an incomplete prophet under the pretext of divine conversations and modernity. (10) He himself had to become the Messiah, so he committed many blasphemies in the honor of Hazrat Isa (AS) and collected all kinds of things in the books to prove his death. (11) When one gets a taste of dignity, power, and wealth, the matter does not stop anywhere. Therefore, Mirza Ji is the incarnation of Krishna in order to involve the Hindus. Similarly, he also became Roeder Gopal. And for the Sikhs, Jai Singh Bahadur too. He affixed the names of Mahdi, Messiah, and all the prophets to himself. (12) In Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, he also revealed this revelation to himself: "Awhan," the meaning of which Mirza Ji himself explained as "God has descended into you," God forbid. What kind of disbelief is there that Mirza Ji did not adopt? (13) Claim of Godhood: And when he saw that the disciples kept believing, he went so far as to say that he saw in a dream that he was God, then he created the earth and the heavens. (It is obvious that the dream of a prophet is a revelation, so now this 2446 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 (See for yourself whether the revelation is satanic or divine) (Aina Kamalat Islam pg. 564) The claim is that I am a prophet. But a prophet is the protector of religion. No prophet has narrated such a dream or vision. (13) Since the universal victory of Islam is narrated to be in the time of Christ (peace be upon him), and Mirza Sahib was a well-wisher of the British, therefore, victory was meant to be spiritual and the victory of debate, and his followers hyped the spiritual victory a lot. But even in this, he was utterly defeated. The scholars of truth silenced him. And despite official patronage, the Mirzais could not successfully compete or debate anywhere. They kept beating the drum of spiritual victory while running away. Just like someone said during the First World War that the victory is of the English, but the German's foot advances. (15) We only had the Quran and Hadith to test anyone's inspiration, anyone's revelation, anyone's vision, and anyone's claim. But Mirza Qadiani ended the story of Hadith in the context of the life of Christ in this way. He wrote, "I have come as a judge, I have the authority. By receiving revelation from God, I can reject any pile of hadiths, even if there are a thousand hadiths." See footnote, Supplement Tohfa Golarviya pg. 145. Similarly, Ijaz Ahmadi pg. 29. Now even Hadith cannot be used to test him. One has to just close their eyes and believe in him, otherwise seventy crore Muslims will become infidels for not believing in Mirza Sahib. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 4441 They will go. He has closed the way to test any inspiration or human through the Quran and Hadith, now he can do whatever he wants. Religious discussion can only take place through the traditions narrated from Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH) and his blessed companions. Religion is what has been transmitted from behind. But Mirza Ji has written in his book Arbaeen Number 4, page 25, that God has sent me as the Messiah and has told me which Hadith is true and which is false, and has informed me of the correct meanings of the Quran, so why and for what purpose should I have transmitted discussions with these people when I have such faith in my revelation as I have in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran. (16) It is with regret that I have to say that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani did not consider it sufficient to remain within the religious limits in his harshness and extremism, but he adopted a method in his writings that cannot be brought within the sphere of civilization in any way. Whereas he claimed prophethood and Messiahship and he also claimed to have absorbed all the qualities and morals of Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH). He did not maintain the honor of his false claims, even outwardly. (Therefore, you can see his abuses separately as an appendix). (17) Claiming to be the essence of Muhammad: On this basis, Mirza Qadiani, while clarifying, writes in Tauzeeh al-Haram that I am the essence of Muhammad, in this way the seal of prophethood was not broken and the prophethood of Muhammad remained with Muhammad himself. "Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un" (From God we come and to Him we return). What a great thief that the seal was not broken and the goods were stolen). We ask that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, who has said that I am the essence of Muhammad, are they really two people? 2448 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 are not one and the same. So this is clearly wrong and against observation. And if there are two, then the seal of prophethood is broken and it is wrong to say that Muhammad's prophethood remained only with Muhammad. And if the holy spirit of the Prophet (peace be upon him) entered Mirza Ji, then this is a Hindu belief which is absolutely false. And if the intention is that Mirza Qadiani is a manifestation of your morals and attributes, then there can be no greater misstatement in the world, because the person who, according to the above references and events, claims to be equal to the Prophet whose morals and habits even the greatest opponents surrendered to, is absolutely not correct. (18) It is obvious that a shadow and the one who casts the shadow can never be the same. All the qualities cannot come in the shadow. And if a person becomes the very Muhammad because of some qualities, then we ask whether Mirza Ji understood in Arba'een that the main moral qualities of God are four: (1) Rabb-ul-Alamin, the cherisher of all, (2) Rahman, the one who bestows mercy without any return for any service, (3) Rahim, the one who gives more reward than due for any service, the one who rewards and cherishes, and the one who accepts service and does not waste it, (4) the one who does justice to his servants. So Ahmad is the one who gathers these four qualities within himself in a shadow form. So, did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani or the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) become God or the very God in a shadow form? All this is wrong and delirium, only to fulfill the desire to become a prophet. (19) One thing is clear from this: when Mirza Ji says that Muhammad's prophethood remained only with Muhammad and the seal of prophethood was not broken, then he admitted that Prophethood has ended, and no separate person can become a prophet. As for me, I am the very essence of Muhammad; there is no duality between me and the Leader of the World, peace and blessings be upon him. I am exactly the same (this mouth and lentil soup!). Mr. Chairman: Now we will have a break for tea and then resume at 11:20. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Yes, sir? Mr. Chairman: We will have a break for tea and then resume at 11:20. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Very well, as you command. [The Special Committee adjourned for tea break to meet at 11.20 a.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled at 11.20 a.m., Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Maulana Abdul Hakeem! Maulana Sahib, we will sit until at least 1:30. If you get tired, let us know, and we will take a ten-minute break at one o'clock. The honorable members should not start slipping away. Maulana Abdul Haleem: Claims of Mirza Taken from the book "Claims of Mirza" Written by Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi Sahib Deobandi, may his shadow last. Like this, Mahdi may exist, however Salman may exist, Tell me what you are, are you even a Muslim? Many misguided sects have emerged in the world and continue to do so daily. However, the Mirza'i sect is a strange enigma. Even the Mirza'is themselves have not yet discovered its claims and beliefs. The main reason for this is that the founder of this sect, Mirza Qadiani, presented himself to the world as an incomprehensible riddle and made such contradictory claims that even his followers are in trouble, wondering what to call their leader. Some call him an independent prophet with his own law, some consider him a non-legislative prophet, and some have invented a new type of linguistic prophet for his sake, calling him the Promised Messiah, Mahdi, and a linguistic or metaphorical prophet. And the reality is that Mirza Sahib's existence is such an enigma that it has no solution. Looking at what he has written about himself in his works, it is difficult to determine whether Mirza Sahib is a human being or a brick, a man or a woman, a Muslim or a Hindu, Mahdi or Haris, a saint or a prophet, an angel or a demon. Note: If any Mirza'i can prove that this statement is not Mirza Sahib's, then a reward of (10) rupees will be given. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2431 Open Challenge to All Sects of Mirzais Therefore, it can be stated with a claim that all three sects of the Mirzai community, together, cannot determine until the Day of Judgment what Mirza Sahib's claim is, who he is, and what he is. What he wants the world to call him. But when we carefully read Mirza Sahib's writings, it becomes clear that this confusion and contradiction in claims is also a deep ploy of his. He actually wanted to claim divinity. But he understood that the nation would not accept it, so he proceeded gradually. First, a servant of Islam, a preacher. Then he became a reformer. Then he became the Mahdi, and when he saw that there was no shortage of fools in the nation who would accept his every claim, then openly - a prophet, a messenger, the seal of the prophets, etc., he became everything at times, and the promising man had also laid the groundwork for his final claim (divinity), which is well confirmed by the aforementioned statements number 26 to number 30. But fortunately, age did not permit, otherwise the god of the Mirzai world would also have been made of new light and new fashion. Mirza Sahib's own statements below are witnesses to this gradual progression and the reason for our claim. On page 53 of Nusrat-ul-Haq, he states: "One of the difficulties of my invitation was the claim of prophethood, divine revelation, and the Promised Messiah." (And then he states) "Besides this, other difficulties were known, that some matters in this invitation were such that there was no hope at all that the nation would accept them, and there was not even so much hope for the nation that they would be able to accept this matter, that after the era of prophethood, the series of non-legislative revelation has not been cut off and will remain until the Day of Judgment." 2452 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 31st, 1974 Also, the following passage from Haqiqat-ul-Wahi itself is a witness to this gradual development, which clearly shows that initially, Mirza Sahib believed in the finality of Prophethood and did not call himself a prophet. Later, the cheapness of grain made him a prophet. See Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 149 and page 150. Similarly, in the beginning, I believed that what relation did I have to the Messiah, son of Mary? He is a prophet and among God's great close ones, and if anything appeared concerning my superiority, I considered it a partial superiority. But later, the revelation of God Almighty that descended upon me like rain did not allow me to adhere to this belief and explicitly gave me the title of prophet. [At this stage, Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad.)] Maulana Abdul Haleem: After this, we quote Mirza Sahib's claims from his own writings along with page references, which are present in numerous books and various places. For the sake of brevity, only one statement has been quoted from them, while the remaining page references have been included. Claim of being a preacher of Islam and a reformer This humble author of Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya has been appointed by Hazrat Qadir Mutlaq Jalla Shanahu to strive for the reformation of mankind with complete humility, meekness, poverty, humiliation, and modesty in the manner of the Messiah of the Children of Israel. Letter included in the introduction of Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, page 82. Claim of being a Mujaddid (Reformer) Now tell me, if this humble one is not on the right path, then who else has come who made such a claim of being a Mujaddid at the head of this fourteenth century as this humble one has done? Izala Auham Page 154/66 Khurd/Kalan, Part One. Claim of being a Muhaddith (Communicant with God) There is no doubt that this humble one has come as a Muhaddith for this Ummah from God Almighty, and a Muhaddith is nothing but a prophet in one sense, although there is no title of prophethood for him, yet he is a prophet in a partial sense. Izala Auham 174/320 Khurd Kalan. Touzeeh Al Maram Page 9 Claim of being the Imam of the Age I will make you an Imam for the people, so you will be their guide. Haqeeqatul Wahi Page 79 Zaroorat-ul-Imam Page 24 Kitab-ul-Bariyah Page 76 Claim of being the Mahdi Ishtihar Mi’yar-ul-Akhyar & Review of Religions, November & December 1903, Page 407, etc. This claim of Mirza Sahib exists abundantly in most of his writings, therefore there is no need to quote the text. Claim to be the Caliph of God and Successor to God When I intended to appoint my successor, I created Adam, meaning you. Kitab-al-Bariyyah, page 76. Claim to be Haris, the Helper of the Mahdi It should be clear that the prophecy recorded in Abu Dawood's Sahih, that a person named Haris, meaning Haris, will emerge from beyond the river, i.e., from Samarkand, who will strengthen the family of the Prophet, and whose help and support will be obligatory for every believer. It has been revealed to me through inspiration that this prophecy and the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah, who will be the Imam of the Muslims and from among the Muslims, in reality, both refer to this humble one. Izala, page 79/33 small/large. Claim to be an Ummi Prophet and Buruzi, Zilli (Shadowy) or Non-Legislative Prophet And since I am that Muhammadi who was promised of old, therefore, a prophecy in the form of Buruz was bestowed upon me. Advertisement: Correction of a Mistake, quoted from Appendix Tariqa al-Wahi, page 268, Chashma Maarifat, page 324. Claim to Prophethood, Apostleship, and Revelation The true God is the same God who sent His Apostle to Qadian. Daf'e al-Bala, page 11. The truth is that in the pure revelation of God that descends upon me, there are words like "Apostle" and "Sent One." And the Prophet is present not once but a thousand times, Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, page 498. Also, this same subject is in Arbaeen number 4, page 6, and Nuzool-e-Asih, page 99, Hameed-ul-Wahi, page 102 and page 107, and Anjam Atham, page 62, and Haqeeqat-ul-Nubuwwah by Mirza Mahmood, page 209, page 214, etc., etc., in many books. Claiming that one's revelation is exactly like the Quran and obligatory to believe in. How can I deny God's twenty-three years of continuous revelation? I believe in this pure revelation in the same way that I believe in all the revelations that came before me. Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, page 150, also page 211, Anjam Atham, page 62. Claiming to be the source of salvation for the entire world, and that apart from his own community, forty crore Muslims of the Muhammadan community are individuals destined for hell. There are two types of infidelity: one is infidelity where a person denies Islam and does not acknowledge the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as God's Messenger. The other is infidelity, for example, when one does not believe in the Promised Messiah and, despite the completion of the argument, considers him a liar, even though God and the Messenger have emphasized believing in him and acknowledging him as truthful, and emphasis is also found in the books of previous prophets. Therefore, because he is a denier of the command of God and the Messenger, he is an infidel. And if one looks closely, then this Both types of disbelief are included in the same category." Haqeeqatul-Wahi, page 179. And it has been almost nine years since I went to Delhi and Mian Nazeer Hasan, a non-conformist, was invited to the religion of Islam. Arba'een Number 4, footnote page 11. And he says, "Now see, God has declared my revelation and my teaching and allegiance as Noah's Ark and has made it the source of salvation for all mankind." (Arba'een Number, page 2) The same claim is mentioned in Sirat-ul-Abdaal, page 41, Anjam Atham, etc., etc. The claim of being an independent legislative prophet and that he is the ruler over the prophetic hadiths, accepting whomever he wants and throwing away whomever he wants like trash. And I was told that your news is present in the Quran and Hadith, and you are the embodiment of this verse: "It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion." In this passage of Ijaz Ahmadi, along with the claim of legislative prophethood, it is also claimed that our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not the embodiment of this verse, which is clear disbelief. (And he says) If you say that the bearer of Sharia is destroyed by fabricating lies, not every liar, then first of all, this claim is without proof. God has not placed any restriction of Sharia with fabrication. Besides this, understand what Sharia is. Whoever, through his revelation, states a few commands and prohibitions, he becomes the bearer of Sharia. So, according to this definition, our opponents are also accused because there are commands and prohibitions in my revelation as well. For example, this inspiration: "Tell the believers to lower their gaze and guard their private parts." 2457 That is also written for them in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, and it contains both command and prohibition. And 23 years have passed on this, and similarly, until now, there are both commands and prohibitions in my revelation, etc. (Arba'in Number 1, page 6). Then he says, "Since my revelation contains both command and prohibition, and also the renewal of the necessary commandments of the Sharia, therefore, etc." Arba'in page 6 and Arba'in Number 3, page 36 also contain this claim, and in response to this, we swear by God and state that the basis of my claim is not Hadith, but the Quran and the revelation that has been revealed to me. There, in support, we also present two Hadiths that are in accordance with the Holy Quran and are not contrary to my revelation, and we throw away other Hadiths like dirt." Ijaz Ahmadi page 30 and page 3 and page 39, Tuhfa Gawah Wadi'ah page 10 with Tiryaq al-Qulub page 130. Claiming Ten Lakh Miracles for Himself And I swear by that God in whose hand is my life that He has sent me and He has named me and He has called me by the name of the Promised Messiah. And He has shown great signs for the confirmation of me which reach up to three lakhs. And in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, Part 5, page 56, ten lakh miracles have been counted. Takhma Haqiqat-ul-Wahi page 68 also page 136 also 137 Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, Part 5, page 56 also page 58 Ijaz Ahmadi page 1 and page 2. Claiming to be superior to all previous prophets and insulting everyone But the truth is that He has made such a river of miracles flow that, except for our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), there is no proof of them in such abundance among all the other prophets (peace be upon them). ANVIR ZINAL ASSEMBLY OF FAKISTAN 131st August, 1974 is absolutely and certainly impossible, and God has completed His argument, whether anyone accepts it or not. Tamam Haqeeqatul Wahi, page 136 and page 137. Claiming to be Adam (peace be upon him) He writes that God Almighty has declared him to be Adam (peace be upon him) in this statement, or "Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise." Arba'een No. 40, page 23 and Nuzool-e-Isaih, page 99, Kitabul Bareed, page 86. Claiming to be Abraham (peace be upon him) The verse "And take, [O believers], from the standing place of Abraham a place of prayer" refers to the fact that when there are many sects in the Ummah of Muhammad, then an Abraham will be born at the end of time, and among all these sects, the sect that follows this Abraham will be saved. Arba'een No. 3, page 32. Claiming to be Noah (peace be upon him), Claiming to be Jacob (peace be upon him), Moses Claiming to be (peace be upon him), Claiming to be David (peace be upon him), Sheth Claiming to be (peace be upon him), Claiming to be Joseph (peace be upon him), Isaac Claiming to be (peace be upon him) I am Adam, I am Seth, I am Noah, I am Abraham, I am Isaac. I am David, I am Jesus, and I am the perfect manifestation of the name of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). That is, figuratively, I am Muhammad and Ahmad. *Footnote Haqiqat-ul-Wahi* page 72, *Nuzul-e-Masih*, page 36 and pages 38 and 49, *Izala-e-Auham* page 253, Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya Claiming to be Yahya (John) Claiming to be Ishmael Fifth, page 90 and *Tohfa-e-Haqiqat-ul-Wahi* page 85 Claiming to be Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon him) Praise be to God who made you the Messiah, son of Mary. *Footnote Haqiqat-ul-Wahi* page 72 *Arbaeen* number 3 page 23, this claim is present in almost all books. Claiming to be superior to Jesus (peace be upon him) and using vulgar, street insults against him. Forget the mention of Ibn-e-Maryam (son of Mary). Ghulam Ahmad is better than him. *Dafe-ul-Bala* page 20, God has sent the Promised Messiah from this Ummah who, in all his glory, is far greater than the previous Messiah. I swear by Him in whose hand is my life. If the Messiah, son of Mary, were in my time, he could never do the work that I can do, nor could he show the signs that are appearing from me. *Haqiqat-ul-Wahi* pages 148 and 153. Your family is also extremely pure and chaste. Three of your grandmothers and maternal grandmothers were adulterous women, from whose blood your existence came into being. *Footnote Supplement Anjam-e-Atham* page 7. So this ignorant... ARVU NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 31, 1974 Why did Israeli call these trivial matters predictions? Appendix Anjam Atham Page This should also be remembered that you were also accustomed to lying so much. Footnote Appendix Anjam Atham Page 5 Izala Kalan Page 3 Ijaz Ahmadi Page 13 & Page 14 Izala Auham Page 132 & Page 133 & Kashti Nooh Page 16. Claiming to be Noah (peace be upon him) and insulting him And God Almighty is showing me so many signs that if those signs had been shown in the time of Noah, those people would not have drowned. Haqeeqatul Wahi Page 137. Claiming to be Maryam (peace be upon her) First, God named me Maryam, and later revealed that the spirit from God was breathed into this Maryam, and then said that after the spirit was breathed, Maryam's status was transferred to the status of Isa, and in this way, Isa was born from Maryam and was called Ibn Maryam. Footnote Haqeeqatul Wahi Page 72 Footnote Barahin Ahmadiyya Page 496 & Kashti Nooh Page 46 & Page 47 Izala Page 418 Khurd / 173 Kalan Claiming equality with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) That is, Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), keeping this intermediary in mind and being in it, and being named Muhammad and Ahmad, I am also a messenger and a prophet. Ek Ghalati ka Izala Appendix Haqeeqatul Abooda Page 256 I have repeatedly stated that according to the verse وآخرين منهم لما يلحقوا بهم, I am the same Khatam-ul-Anbiya in a buruzi manner, and Appendix Haqeeqatul Wahi Page 85 & Page 86 & Page 97 & Page 81 QADIANI: SUB-JUGAL DISCUSSION 15 I have often claimed for myself those attributes that are specific to the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Also, in Izala, page 253. Claiming to be superior to our Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him: The number of miracles of our Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is written as only three thousand. Tuhfa Gawaharwiya, page 40. And the number of his own miracles is stated as ten lakhs on page 56 of Barahin Ahmadiyya, Part V. "For him, i.e., the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, the sign of the eclipse of one moon appeared, and for me, the moon and the sun both. Now will you deny it?" Ijaz Ahmadi, Muhalla A. In this, along with the claim of superiority over you, there is also denial and insult of the miracle of Shaqq-ul-Qamar (splitting of the moon). Claiming to be Michael: And the Prophet Daniel has named me Michael in his book. Footnote Arbaeen No. 3, page 25. Claiming to be like God: And the literal meaning of Michael in Hebrew is: Like God. Footnote Arbaeen No. 3, page 25. 2462 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY REPORT Claiming his son to be like God: "Indeed, We give you glad tidings of a son, who will manifest the truth and be sublime, as if God has descended from the heavens." - Istifta, page 85. Claiming to be the son of God: "You are to me like my children." - Footnote Arbaeen No. 4, page 19 Claiming God to have descended into himself: "You received a revelation 'Awa Hana,' which you yourself interpret in the book Al-Bariyah on page 76 as: 'God has descended into you.'" Being God himself in a state of ecstasy and creating the heavens and the earth: "And I saw in one of my revelations that I am God myself and I believed that I am He." (Then he says,) "And His Godhood is surging within me." (Then he says,) "And in this state, I am saying that we want a new system and a new earth. So first, I created the heavens and the earth in a summarized form in which there was no order or distinction. Then, according to the will of truth, I arranged and distinguished it, and I saw that I was capable of creating it. Then I created the lowest heaven and said, 'Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps.'" "Then I said that now We will create man from an extract of clay." Then my state... Moved from revelation to inspiration, and the following words flowed from my tongue: "I desired to appoint you as a successor." "Adam: We have indeed created man in the best of molds." These are the revelations that were revealed to me by Allah Almighty. Kitab al-Bariyah, page 78 and page 79; and Ayeena Kamalat-e-Islam, page 564; and Akhbar al-Hakam, Qadian, February 24, 1905. Mirza ji, menstruation blood occurring and then it becoming a child. Regarding Munshi Ilahi Bakhsh, this was the revelation: "These people want to see the blood of menstruation in you," meaning they are in search of impurity, filth, and wickedness. "And God wants to show the continuous blessings that are upon me. And how can you resemble the blood of menstruation, and where is that remaining in you? Pure transformations have turned that blood into a beautiful boy, and that boy who was made from that blood was born from my hand." Hashia Arbaeen Number 4, page 18. 496. Becoming Pregnant The aforementioned passage from Hashia Haqiqatul Wahi, page —, to Kishti-e-Nooh, page 27, Hashia Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya, Part V, page—. Claiming to be the Black Stone (Hajr-e-Aswad) The revelation is this: "Someone kissed my feet, and I was saying that I am the Black Stone." Hashia Arbaeen Number 4, page 15. 1902. Claiming to be Salman The revelation came: "You are the Salman of my religion, O possessor of blessings!" Review of Religions, Volume No. 5, Number 4, April. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Joint Session Claiming to be Krishna Haqeeqatul Wahi, page 85: "The Arya people who are waiting for the manifestation of a separate Krishna these days, that Krishna is none other than me. Alas!" Claiming to be the King of the Aryas Haqeeqatul Wahi, page 85: "And this claim is not only from my side, but God has repeatedly revealed to me that you are the Krishna who was to appear in the last age." Since becoming the king of the Aryas was not easy in a visible way either, therefore, after that, he explains the interpretation of the revelation in this way: "And by kingship is meant only heavenly kingship." This is the bag of tricks of Umar Ayyar, forty-four manifestations of which you have observed. May Allah Almighty protect Muslims from its evil. Amen. (Muhammad Shafi Deobandi) Insulting the Prophets (Peace Be Upon Them) Under the heading "Claims of Mirza," some references have been presented. But, as a sample from the heap, a few more references may be noted. If Mirza Ji is not a prophet, then no one has ever been a prophet. (1) "The proofs and the clear words by which the prophethood of Moses and Jesus is established, even greater proofs and clearer words exist regarding the prophethood of the Promised Messiah. Despite these, if the Promised Messiah is not a prophet, then no one in the world has ever been a prophet." (Haqeeqatul Abood, Part 1, page 200) (Mirza Ji) is the embodiment of the verse "So He does not disclose His unseen to anyone. Except to one with whom He is pleased, [namely], a messenger." (Haqeeqatul Wahi, page 202). Severe insult to the Prophets (peace be upon them) (2) And God Almighty has shown so many signs to prove that I am from Him that if they were divided among a thousand prophets, their prophethood could also be proven by them." Chashma Maarifat Page 317. More insult to the Prophets (peace be upon them) (3) And if you say that with this revelation which came to the previous prophets (peace be upon them), there are miracles and prophecies, then in this place there are far more miracles and prophecies than most of the previous prophets, rather the miracles and prophecies of some of the previous prophets (peace be upon them) do not compare at all to these miracles and prophecies. (Referenced from Tatimmah Haqeeqat-ul-Abuwah, written by Mirza Mahmood, page 292) Total superiority over Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). (4) Hazrat Masih Maud (Mirza Qadiani) did not declare himself superior to Masih (Hazrat Isa - peace be upon him) because he came to know that a non-prophet is superior to a prophet - but because the revelation of Allah Almighty explicitly gave him the title of prophet and it descended upon him like rain, and it was also proven that he changed the belief of Tiryaq-ul-Qulub because he had written in Tiryaq-ul-Qulub that he only has partial superiority over Masih, and later he said that he is superior to him in all glory. (Hayat-un-Nabuwat, page 71, part one). [At this stage Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Shaibzada Farooq Ali)]. 2466 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Maulana Abdul Haleem: Objecting to my superiority over Hazrat Isa is a satanic insinuation. (5) You (Mirzaji) not only mention your being superior to Christ, but you also state that objecting to your being superior to Hazrat Masih is a satanic insinuation. And to say that Hazrat Masih Maud cannot be called a prophet is tantamount to waging war against God Almighty. (Hamiat-un-Nabuwwah, page 21) Explicit insult to Hazrat Isa and slander against the Quran (1) But the righteousness of Christ is not proven to be greater than other righteous people in his time, but the Committee Prophet has an advantage over him because he did not drink alcohol, and it has never been heard that a prostitute came and rubbed his head with the money she earned, or touched his body with her hands and hair, or that an unrelated young woman served him. For this reason, God named the pure woman "Hazoor" in the Quran, but did not give Christ this name, because such stories prevented the giving of this name. (Marginal note, Dafe-ul-Bala, page 5) Several things have been proven from this reference: (1) Firstly, the insult that Mirza Qadiani has made to Hazrat Isa, in the name of Jesus Christ, is actually an insult to Hazrat Isa himself by Mirza. (2) Secondly, it has been proven that this is the same Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, who is mentioned in the Quran. (3) Thirdly, it has been proven that in Mirza Qadiani's opinion, God Almighty Himself has also confirmed the allegations against Hazrat Isa, peace be upon him, otherwise, God Almighty would have clarified the false allegations against any prophet. QALIANI SUD-UGINGAAL DISCUSSION 240 / Insulting the Holy Prophet (PBUH) (7) To confirm this prophecy, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also made a prophecy beforehand that "Baitazwaj wa Yulad lahu." That is, the Promised Messiah will marry and also have children. Now it is obvious that mentioning marriage and children is not generally intended, because generally everyone gets married and has children, there is nothing special in it, but it means that special "marriage" which will be as a sign and by children is meant those special children about which this humble person's prophecy exists. It is as if the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is answering the doubts of those black-hearted deniers and saying that these things will definitely be fulfilled." (Anjam Atham footnote page 337). Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was blinded and deafened by the love of Muhammadi Begum. He tried to involve the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as if the Prophet also hinted at the marriage of Muhammadi Begum. Was the Holy Prophet (PBUH) hinting that Muhammadi Begum would marry Mirza Sahib and he did not know that she would never come? Mirza's name is Ahmad in the Quran (8) Hazrat Masih Maud has also been mentioned by the name of Rasool in the Holy Quran, so it is proved by an Ayat "Mubashra bi min ba'di Ismuhu Ahmad" that Allah Almighty calls the name of the coming Messiah as Rasool. (Hayat-ud-Durrah, p. 188). Also (9) Another verse in which the Promised Messiah has been declared as a Messenger is the verse "Wa Akharin minhum Lamma Yalhaqu Bihim". In which the resurrection of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is mentioned. So it is necessary that the second resurrection should also be with prophethood." (Haqeeqat-un-Nubuwwah, p. 189). Mirza Ji's Moral Character Embellished and severe curses QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2469 (1) O wretched sect of Maulvis, how long will you hide the truth? When will the time come when you abandon this Jewish trait? O oppressive Maulvis, alas for you that you have drunk the cup of dishonesty and given the same to the common people. (Anjam Atham page 21). (2) But will these people swear an oath? Never. Because they are liars and, like dogs, are eating the carrion of lies. (Supplement to Anjam Atham page 25). (3) Some ignorant custodians of shrines and ostriches of the clergy (Supplement to Anjam Atham page 18) My opponents are wild boars of the jungle. (4) إن العدى صَارُؤ أخنازير الفلا ونساء لهم من دُونَهنَّ إِلَّا اكلب Translation: My opponents are wild boars of the jungle, and their women are worse than bitches. (Najm al-Huda page 10). About Maulvi Saadullah (5) Please observe a few verses regarding Maulvi Saadullah Sahib Ludhianvi:- وَمِنَ اللَّيَّامِ ارى رُجَمِيلاً فَاسقًا غَوْلًا لِعِيْناً نُطْفَة السَّفَهَاءِ And among the vile, I see a wicked man, a cursed demon, the offspring of fools. سكس حيث مُفْسِدٌ وَمَزَوِّرُ نَحْسُ يُسَى السَّعْدِ فِي الْجَهَلَاءِ A gossiper, vile, corrupt, and a deceiver who glosses over lies, an ominous figure whose name the ignorant have called Saadullah. اذيتني حجيشاً فَلَستُ بِصَادِق إن لم تمت بالخزي يا ابنَ بَغَاء You have caused me great distress with your wickedness. So I will not be truthful if you do not die in disgrace (O son of adulterous women). Tatimma Haqiqatul-Wahi page 14 and page 15. 2410 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (31st August, 1974 My opponents are the offspring of prostitutes. (2) These are the books that every Muslim looks upon with love and affection, benefits from their knowledge, accepts me, and confirms my invitation, except for the offspring of prostitutes. (Miracle of Islam, Page 547) Every Muslim looks at my books with loving eyes and benefits from their knowledge, accepts me, and confirms my invitation, except for the offspring of prostitutes. O carrion-eating clerics and filthy souls! Some malicious-natured clerics who harbor the conscience of Judaism within them... in the world, the most impure and loathsome of all living beings is the pig. But more impure than the pig are those who conceal the testimony of truth and honesty for their own sensual desires. O carrion-eating clerics! And filthy souls, woe to you that you concealed the true testimony of Islam for my enmity. O worms of darkness, do not lie, and do not eat the filth that... Christians ate. (Anjam Atham, Page 305). Thieves, pirates, bastards We look at the events of 1857 and examine the fatwas of the clerics of that time, who generally affixed seals. Those who wanted to kill the British, we drown in a sea of ​​shame. What kind of clerics were these and what kind of fatwas were these, which had no reason, no intellect, no moral justice. These people, like thieves, pirates, and bastards, began to attack their benefactor government and called it Jihad. (Marginal note, Izala Auham, Page 295). QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Bastard, adulterer. Is it right to wage jihad against this government or not? Remember that this question of theirs is utterly foolish. Because, how can there be jihad against the one whose favors we are bound to thank? I say truly, that to wish ill of a benefactor is the act of a bastard and an adulterer. So, my belief, which I repeatedly express, is that Islam has two parts: one, to obey God Almighty; the other, to obey this government (i.e., the British Government) that has established peace. (Page 3 worthy of government attention). Maulvi Saadullah O 'Arsha Allah' of women, how long will you display cowardice like men of war? (Ejaz Ahmadi, page 83) Regarding Hazrat Imam Hussain: "Karbala is before my eyes every moment; a hundred Husseins are in my bosom." (Durr-e-Sameen, page 287) You have forgotten the glory of God and the mosque, and your invocation is only Hussain. Do you deny it? So this is a calamity upon Islam. It is like a pile of dung near the fragrance of musk. (Injaz Ahmadi, page 82) And there is a great difference between me and your Hussain. I am receiving God's support and help at all times. Muhammad Hussain, then remember the desert of Karbala. You still weep; so remember. (Ejaz Ahmadi, page 69). Regarding Maulana Rashid Ahmad Gangohi: Blind Satan and misguided demon. (Anjam Atham, page 252). NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 31st, 1974 (Along with him, Maulvi Nazir Hussain, Maulana Ahmad Ali Saharanpuri, Maulana Abdul Haq Dehlavi, and Muhammad Hassan Amrohi have also been accused in the aforementioned book.) Regarding Pir Mehar Ali Shah Sahib Golravi: I have received a book from a liar. That vile book stings like a scorpion. So I said, "O land of Golra, cursed be you, you have become accursed because of the cursed one. So you will fall into destruction on the Day of Judgment." This lowly person has spoken with abuse like vile people. O Sheikh of misguidance, do you think that I have fabricated lies? So know that my skirt is pure from lies. - When we saw that your heart had become black, tears flowed from our eyes and the heart was restless. You have made the path of polytheism the center of your religion. Is this Islam, O denier? O demon, you have lied because of misfortune. O prey of death, fear God, why do you act so boldly? And there are snakes and beasts in the earth, but the worst of all are those who insult me and abuse me and call me a disbeliever (Ejaz Ahmadi, page 29, 67, 29, 20). Regarding Shia scholar Ali Jairi: I see you like a menstruating woman, not like a woman who is pure from menstruation (Ejaz Ahmadi, page 68). Boycott of Muslims Hazrat Masih Maud (the Promised Messiah) has ordered, and it is a forceful order, that no Ahmadi should give his daughter to a non-Ahmadi. It is the duty of every Ahmadi to comply with this. (Barakat-e-Khilafat, page 75, as quoted in Qadiani Mazhab). Like the children of Hindus and Christians, the funeral prayers of non-Ahmadi children should also not be offered. (Anwar-e-Khilafat, page 92, Maktoobat-ul-Allah, page 42). IN THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Mirza Ji's Abuses YAMAHA AMANDAL PISCUSSION 2413 Alphabetically Now we will transcribe Mirza Ji's abuses and his clean words in alphabetical order from Alif to Yay, so that the Mirzais can enjoy reading them. Alif: "O sect of wicked Maulvis. You have given the cup of dishonesty that you drank to the common people as well. O creatures of darkness, fleeing from faith and justice. O blind semi-atheist. O Abu Lahab. Enemies of Islam. O Maulvis of the cave of Islam. O savage of the jungle. O blasphemer. Foolish opponent deprived of the light of faith. O filthy Dajjal. Those who defame Islam. O wretched ones. Ignorant. Wicked. First of the infidels. Rascals. O wicked, vile enemies of Allah and the Messenger. These fools will have no place to run and their noses will be cut off cleanly. Bay: Dishonest blind Maulvis. Filthy natured. Mad. Wicked. Ill-spoken do not reveal. Shamelessly increasing accusations. Dishonest. Shameless person. Wicked troublemaker. Unfortunate denier. Immoral. Miserly. Evil-minded. Ill-natured. Unlucky nation. Foul-mouthed. Evil-hearted. Inner leprosy. Those with a nature of miserliness. Foolish. Nonsense. Bad scholars. Unreliable. Tay: Worse than the whole world. Narrow-minded. Abandoned modesty. Completely abandoned the path of piety and honesty. Due to the misfortune of abandoning piety, humiliation has come. To spew out the foam of excommunication and curse from the mouth. By calling all the sects of Maulvis wicked, Mirza Sahib has given proof of his piety. The sect of Maulvis is the same for whom the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has said that whoever honors the scholars of my Ummah has honored me. And whoever insults and disrespects them has insulted me. And in another Hadith, scholars have also been called the heirs of the prophets. Then know, O astray Sheikh and futile deceiver. 160 Ate the filth of lies. Ate the dung of lies. Ignorant savage. A path of truth and deviated and distant from reward. Imposter. To die while still alive. Chuhra. Four. H Donkey fool. Deviated from truth and righteousness. Enviorous. Truth concealer. Evil-natured Maulvi who carries the leaven of Judaism within them. More than a pig impure. The humiliation of error upon their faces empty asses. Traitor. Treachery profession. Losers. From the light of Rahman raw thought. Bat. W Heartless lepers. Deceiver. Devoid of honesty, integrity, and truth. A liar Dajjal saying. A jester like the Doms. Enemy of truth. Enemy of the Quran, heart darkness. And a death of disgrace. Seclusion with disgrace. Black marks of humiliation on their cursed faces will make them like pigs and monkeys. R Chief of the liars. White beard will take to the grave with hypocritical blackness will go. Black faced. Fox Yaz. Chief of the oath takers. Head of the trustworthy. Head of the traitors. Z With poisonous substances. Heretic. زور كم يفشوالي مواحى الزورا S: The curse of forsaking truth be upon them. Base Mullah. Black-hearted denier, no shame is severe. How much the black-hearted sect is taking advantage of satanic slanders. Black board. Scientific. Sinha. Base Sultan of the arrogant who lost his religion through arrogance and insult. Stray dog. Sh Far from shame and modesty. With mischief, treachery and satanic actions. Noble afraid of base. Rather, he is afraid of his baseness. Mischievous, cunning, benefitted from boasting. Sheikh Bandi. S صدر القناة ندش صدر کی ضربہ ویر یک زمانی بمار و ماء QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2477 ض: ضال ضرر ھم اکثر من ابلیس لعین۔: More harmful than the accursed devil. ط: ill-fated, may you purify yourselves by abolishing truth and religion. ظ: الظالم ظلمانی حالت۔: Oppressor, state of darkness. ع: علماء السوء عداوت اسلام۔ عجب و پندار والے۔ عدد العقل ۔ عقارب۔ عقب الكلب عدو ہا۔: Evil scholars, enemies of Islam. Conceited and arrogant. Number of reason. Scorpions. Behind the dog, its enemy. غ: غول الاغوی ۔ غدار سرشت۔ غالی۔ غافل۔: Band of seducers. Treacherous nature. Extremist. Neglectful. ف: قیمت یا عبد الشیطان۔ فریبی ۔ فن عربی سے بے بہرہ ۔ فرعونی رنگ۔: Price, O slave of Satan. Deceiver. Ignorant of Arabic art. Pharaonic color. ق: قبر میں پاؤں لٹکائے ہوئے ۔ قسمت قلو نهم - قد سبق الكل في الكذب: With feet dangling in the grave. Their destiny is قلوبهم. He has surpassed everyone in lying. ک: کتے ۔ گدھا۔ کینہ ور۔ گندے اور پلید فتوی والے۔ کمینہ۔ گندی کارروائی والے۔ کہاء ( مادر زاد اندھے) گندی عادت ۔ گندے اخلاق۔ گندہ دہانی۔ گندے اخلاق والے ذلت سے غرق ہو جا۔ سج دل قوم کوتاہ نظر ۔ کہو پری میں کیڑا۔ کیڑوں کی طرح خود ہی مر جاویں گے۔ گندی روحو۔: Dogs. Donkey. Vengeful. Filthy and impure fatwa givers. Mean. Having dirty dealings. Kah'a (blind from birth). Dirty habit. Dirty morals. Foul-mouthed. O you with dirty morals, drown in disgrace. Hard-hearted, short-sighted people. Say, a worm in a fairy. May you die like worms. Dirty souls. ل: لاف و گزاف والے ۔ لعنت کی موت: Boastful and exaggerated. Accursed death. م: مولویت کو بدنام کرنے والو۔ مولویوں کا منہ کالا کرنے کے لئے ۔ منافق۔ مفتری۔ مور وغصب مفسد مرے ہوئے کپڑے۔ مخذ دل۔ مہجور - مجنون ۔ مغرور ۔ منکر ۔ محبوب مولوی ۔ مگس طینت ۔ مولوی کی بک بک ۔ مردار خور مولویوں: Those who defame the clergy. To blacken the faces of the mullahs. Hypocrite. Slanderer. More usurping corrupt dead rags. Discouraged. Abandoned. Mad. Arrogant. Denier. Beloved Mullah. Fly-natured. Mullah's babbling. Carrion-eating mullahs. ن: نجاست نہ کھاؤ۔ نا اہل مولوی۔ ناک کٹ جائے گی۔ نا پاک طبع لوگوں نے۔ نابینا علماء نمک حرام - نفسانی۔ نا پاک نفس - تابکار قوم - نفرتی و نا پاک شیوه نادان متعصب ۔ نالائق ۔ نفس امارہ کے قبضہ میں۔ نا اہل حریف۔ نجاست سے بھرے ہوئے۔ نادانی میں ڈوبے ہوئے۔ نجاست خوری کا شوق۔: Do not eat filth. Incompetent Mullahs. The nose will be cut off. By impure-natured people. Blind scholars, ungrateful. Carnal. Impure soul. Sinful nation. Hateful and impure ways. Foolish, biased. Unworthy. In the grip of the carnal soul. Incompetent opponent. Filled with filth. Drowned in ignorance. Fond of eating filth. 2478 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 And of wild nature - those with barbaric beliefs. H - Haman. Halakin. Hinduzada. Y - One-eyed Maulvi, one with Jewish distortions, of Jewish character, Palha Al-Sheikh Al-Dhaal wal Muftari Al-Battal. Jewish scholars, of Jewish character, etc. etc. (From Asaa-e-Moosa) Qadiani Issue - General Discussion 2479 Jihad and Mirza Ji's Heretical Thoughts NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (31st August 1974 Jihad is forbidden. (1) Now leave the thought of Jihad, O friends, war and fighting are now forbidden for the sake of religion. (Supplement Tuhfa Golarviyya, page 39) Zia-ul-Islam Printing Press (Qadian) War for religion is over. (2) Now the Messiah, who is the Imam of the religion, has come; now all the wars of religion are over. (Supplement Tuhfa Golarviyya, page 39) The Fatwa of Jihad is useless. (3) Now the light of God has descended from the sky, now the Fatwa of war and Jihad is useless. (Supplement Tuhfa Golarviyya, page 39) One who does Jihad is an enemy of God. (4) He is an enemy of God who now does Jihad, he is a denier of the Prophet who holds this belief. (Supplement Tuhfa Golarviyya, page 39) The Jihad of the sword is completely wrong and extremely dangerous. (5) Among Muslims, these two issues are extremely dangerous and completely wrong: that they consider the Jihad of the sword for the sake of religion as a pillar of their religion." (Sitara-e-Qaisar, page 8) There is prohibition of Jihad in the Quran. (6) There is a clear command in the Quran that do not raise the sword for spreading the religion. (Sitara-e-Qaisar, page 8) I have come to end Jihad. (7) I have come to you people with an order, which is that now this Jihad of the sword is over, but the Jihad of purifying one's own self remains. (Government English and Jihad, page 14) My arrival is for the end of religious wars. (8) (Think of a hadith from Sahih Bukhari where it is written in the description of the Promised Messiah that "Yada'ul harb" i.e., when the Messiah comes, he will end religious wars." (Government English and Jihad, page 5) Jihad is heinous and forbidden. (9) Tell people that the time is right, now war and jihad are haram and heinous. (Supplement Golڑvia, page 42) The intensity of Jihad gradually decreased, and it was completely stopped during the time of Mirza. (10) "God Almighty has gradually reduced the intensity of Jihad, i.e., religious wars. At the time of Hazrat Musa, there was such intensity that not believing could not save one from being killed, and even infants were killed. Then, at the time of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), the killing of children, the elderly, and women was forbidden. And then, for some nations, instead of faith, only paying jizya was accepted as a way to avoid accountability. And then, at the time of the Promised Messiah, the command of Jihad was completely suspended." (Footnote Arbaeen Number 4, page 15) August 21, 1974 These statements clearly show that Mirza Ji has abrogated a firm command of the Quran and Hadith, while it is in the Hadith: "Al-Jihad is ongoing until the Day of Judgment." Jihad will continue until the Day of Judgment. Mirza Ji has also argued from Bukhari, where he stated regarding the time of Hazrat Isa (AS): "Wa yadha' al-harb," and in some, it is "Yadha' al-jizyah," which means that the disbelievers will be defeated, and those who remain will also become Muslims, as it is in the Hadith. Jizya is taken from the non-Muslim subjects. Now, when all people become Muslims, the jizya will automatically end. Similarly, when the people of the world become Muslims, the fighting will automatically end. Mirza Ji understood the meaning of abrogating the law of Sharia, or deliberately deceived. (1) Mirza Ji has determined the time of his descent to be during the British era, and that too in Qadian. But Mirza Ji is unaware that in the last era, there will be fierce battles in Damascus, which will be prepared by the Mahdi (AS). At that time, Hazrat Isa (AS) will descend and kill the Dajjal. Every tree will call out that a Jew is hiding behind it. When all opponents embrace faith, the fighting will stop, and there will be no jizya either. (2) Mirza Qadiani has troubled Muslims by writing about a bloody Mahdi and a bloody Messiah everywhere. And was jihad not already known before? Didn't Mirza Ji himself say in reference number that the jihad of the sword is now over? So, it existed before. Now, Mirza Ji has come with this message to abrogate it. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2483 And according to reference number 1, "that it is the time of the descent of the Messiah, now the wars have ended." As if wars were going on before, now the Messiah has come and stopped them. In these references, there is a kind of admission that Jihad was correct and ongoing before. But alas, Mirza Ji has written in many places that it is wrong to raise the sword for religion. It is a mistake to do Jihad to spread Islam. And in the border and mountainous areas, scholars are ignorantly engaging people in these wrongdoings. This is not Jihad. And the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) raised the sword against those who had पहले पहले inflicted great ظلم روا upon the Muslims. Otherwise, there is no Jihad of the sword in Islam. Whereas this is a great attack on the religion and understanding of the Muslims of centuries ago. And it is also historically wrong. The Quraish always took the initiative and sought to exploit Islam and the Muslims. Then Rome and Iran troubled the Muslims. At the time of the Ottoman Empire (girl), Europe was at war against Turkey and they called the Turkish government the sick man. Until they snatched Tripoli and the Balkan states from the Muslims. In the end, the British destroyed the Muslim government of India with deceit and cunning maneuvers. Until they reached the tribal areas. What could the tribes and people of the mountainous regions do? They knew that if they adopted leniency, the British would devour everyone. They too were forced to fight. Mirza Ji knows what defensive war is. (1) Defensive war is one in which the enemy attacks and we respond to it. DAWNAL ASSEMBLY US PAKISTAN 131st August, 1974 (2) They have not attacked, but they are building power and strength so that when the opportunity arises, they can slaughter the Muslims. Even now, breaking their power and weakening them by striking first is a defensive war. (3) When there is no treaty between two governments and Muslims feel threatened, then both parties are at war. (4) If there is a treaty between two governments, it is not permissible to violate the treaty if Muslims consider it harmful and feel threatened. The enemy should be informed of the cancellation of the treaty. Then both governments will be cautious. If Muslims consider it necessary for their survival and the freedom of Islamic propagation, then they should certainly declare war, but first, a treaty of victory must be made. All these things are actually self-defense, and the disbelievers, seeing the natural attraction of Islam and its ever-increasing spread, were intent on uprooting the Muslims out of envy or fear. But as long as the current of Medina remained and the Muslims sacrificed their lives purely for God, Islam continued to advance. But when the situation reversed, and the country expanded on the other hand, naturally the opponents started attacking. All the Crusades took place in the same way. A large part of the inhabited world that was under the control of Muslims fell into the hands of the enemies in the same way. Thank God, even if individually, Muslims have turned around again, and almost all the countries have become independent. May God grant that even if a Caliphate is not established, it does not matter, but if everyone has a treaty and cooperation with each other, then it will still be a great achievement. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION It is completely wrong to say that Muslims raised the sword to propagate Islam or forcibly converted anyone. However, for necessary defense and their own survival, Allah Almighty has given some animals claws, some horns, some fangs, and some long legs. If the Mirzais want Muslims to keep running away like rabbits, then they are welcome to their religion. We consider Jihad and Jihadi rights necessary for the survival of Islam and Muslims. And this is the command of Islam. REPLY TO MIRZAI DELUSION If any Mirzai says that there was actually no need for Jihad, so Mirza Ji forbade it, then this is absolutely wrong. Mirza Ji praised and flattered the British so much that no sycophant could do more than that. But all this praise, commendation, and loyalty was merely so that, under the patronage and protection of the British, Mirza Ji could spread his blasphemies and earn money. Otherwise, did anyone have the power in the British era to implement the Sharia punishment for adultery or theft? And was the British government not wreaking havoc on the Muslims in the rest of the world? And under the Forward Policy, were they not martyring mosques, women, and children on the frontier? When the British did you a favor, should they have been allowed to enter Constantinople and occupy Iraq? That they kill the allied Muslim children and women of Pars, and their Greek allies cut off the breasts of Muslim women in Smyrna and occupy Aski Shehir and prepare to attack Ankara to completely destroy the Turks. Should we, in return for the British doing Mirza Ji a favor, allow them to gather Jews from all over the world and settle them in Palestine, and plant thorns in the chests of the Arabs? What about Aden and Yemen? 2480 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Was the war of independence fought with the pen? Was it unjust to reclaim the Suez Canal? Didn't the British commit atrocities against the Mopla community by scattering them across Indian jails during the Khilafat Movement and hanging them? Second Delusion The Mirzais present a second delusion, claiming that some others have also said similar things about Jihad or not fighting against the British. One answer to this is that it could be someone's individual statement; no Muslim sect has independently made this decision. Another answer is that if someone has done it solely for self-preservation under " إلا أن تتقوا منهم تقة " (except if you indeed fear a danger from them), then its status is different, and Mirza Ji, with reference to quote number 10, has clearly written that there was great severity in Jihad during the time of Moses (peace be upon him). The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) greatly softened it, forbade the killing of children, the elderly, and women, and at the time of the Messiah (i.e., Mirza Ji), it was completely stopped. It is clear from this that Mirza Ji wanted to completely abolish the Islamic issue of Jihad for the British, which is an obligation, sometimes an individual obligation and sometimes a collective obligation. Reply Number 3: Mirza Qadiani gave a fatwa by becoming an English prophet. How can one compare a deceiver of Muslims in the name of prophethood, even in the name of Jesus, son of Mary, to others? Reply Number 4: Some fatwas that are against waging Jihad against the British are not an authority; Mirza Qadiani and Chaudhry Zafarullah are examples of this. Reply Number 5: Furthermore, those who issued fatwas only gave fatwas about the ruling government. They did not forbid or suspend Jihad (there is a big difference between the two). QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2487 A Specific Deception The Mirzais and their representatives have wrongly confused the issue of Jihad and Islam by force. Is the war between the Jews and Syria not a Jihad today? Are Muslims committing oppression in it? God forbid, if Damascus suffers a great loss and a God-fearing person takes over the reins of Muslims and reorganizes the entire Middle East, and then the Jews come with a great power to confront them, would it be wrong if Hazrat Masih Ibn-e-Maryam, according to our collective belief, descends and destroys this Jewish power? Can the Arab leaders be called bloody leaders in the recent Arab-Israel war? Are the Arabs fighting this war to forcibly convert Jews and Christians to Islam? If this war is legitimate, then its aid is also legitimate, and in case of weakness, it is obligatory. Have the Mirzais still not understood the inhumane atrocities that the Jews have inflicted on Muslim men, women, and children in the Middle East? [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatton Abbasi] NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Loyalty to the British Government (31st August, 1974 QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2489 Loyalty to the British Government Under the above heading, a few references to Mirza Sahib's humility and submission to the Queen and the British Government are presented for your consideration. Is this the dignity of prophethood? Her Exalted Majesty, the Queen of India, may her glory endure. And this writing is a gift of gratitude that is presented to Her Exalted Majesty, the Queen of India, the Ruler of England and India, may her glory endure, on the occasion of the Diamond Jubilee celebration as a congratulatory message. Congratulations. Congratulations. Congratulations. (Tohfa-e-Qaisariyyah, p. 2) My community, both outwardly and inwardly, is filled with goodwill towards the British Government. Especially that community which has the bond of allegiance and discipleship with me. It has become so sincerely devoted and well-wishing to this government that I can confidently say that their example is not found among other Muslims. They are a loyal army for the government, whose exterior and interior are filled with goodwill towards the British Government." (Tohfa-e-Qaisariyyah, p. 9) O our Queen! May countless blessings descend upon you. O our great Queen, may countless blessings descend upon you. May God remove all those afflictions from you that are in your heart. Accept this embassy in whatever way possible. (Tohfa-e-Qaisariyyah, p. 20) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 31st, 1974 Our Empress of India, may her glory last. Looking at these events, the heart desires with great longing that our Empress of India, may her glory last, be like the Caesar of Rome. (A Gift for the Empress) O Almighty and Benevolent, keep our Queen happy. O Almighty and Benevolent, keep our Most Exalted Queen happy with Your grace and favor, just as we are happy under her shadow of affection." (Empress of India, page 24) My father was a sincere well-wisher of the English government. And my father, Mirza Ghulam Murtaza Sahib, was also a chair-holder in the Governor's court. And he was such a well-wisher and brave-hearted supporter of the English government that during the sedition of 1857 (i.e., the War of Independence), he bought fifty horses from his own pocket and gathered fifty young warriors, providing assistance to this Exalted Government beyond his means." (A Gift for the Empress, page 14) It is God's command that I remain engaged in prayer for this Government. Rather, I am commissioned by God to remain engaged in prayer for the Government under whose shadow of kindness I am living in peace. And to be thankful for its favors and to consider its happiness as my own." (A Gift for the Empress, page) QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2491 Prayers for the Queen from every particle of heart and being. On this occasion of Jubilee, remembering the continuous favors of Her Majesty the Queen, which include our lives, property, and honor, I present a gift of gratitude, and that gift is a prayer of safety and prosperity for the praised Queen, which comes from the heart and from every particle of being." (Tohfa-e-Qaisariyah, Page 1) Our souls prostrate for the prosperity and safety of Her Majesty the Queen. "Our souls prostrate in the presence of the One God for your prosperity and safety." (Tohfa Page 11) The Queen's existence is a great blessing of God for the country. "May God reward you greatly for the good deeds that have reached us from you, your blessed kingdom, and your peace-loving rulers. We consider your existence to be a great blessing of God for this country." (Tohfa Page 1) We are ashamed of not finding words to express gratitude. "And we are ashamed of not finding the words with which we can fully express this gratitude. May every prayer that a true grateful person can offer for you be accepted on our behalf in your favor." (Tohfa Page 11) 2492 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 God has established me on this principle That the benefactor Government of Britain should be truly obeyed So God Almighty has established me on this principle that the benefactor Government, as this Government of Britain is, should be truly obeyed and sincerely thanked.” (Gift, page 9) Writings for the immature obedience of the Government So me and my party are bound by this principle, therefore I have written many books in Arabic, Persian and Urdu to implement this issue. (Gift, page 9) The thought of Jihad in relation to the Government of Britain is also oppression and Rebellion Then to have any thought of Jihad in the heart in relation to this blessed and peace-giving government How much oppression and rebellion is it? (Gift, page 10) Great joy on loyalty to the Queen Thanks to that God who has shown us this great day of joy today that we have Saw the sixty-year jubilee of our Queen Empress of India, England. Who can estimate how much joy there was in the coming of this day? Our benefactor Empress, may she be blessed, to our Conveyed heartfelt congratulations filled with joy and gratitude. May God always keep Her Majesty happy. (Tohfa, page 2) Mirza Ji's longing for a royal commendation and extremely humble loyalty in the British court. But I am very surprised that I was not even acknowledged with a royal commendation, and my conscience does not accept that the humble gift, i.e., the "Tohfa-e-Qaisariya" treatise, was presented to Her Majesty. And then I should not be acknowledged with a response. Surely there is another reason, in which the intention, will, and knowledge of Her Majesty, Empress of India, may not be involved. Therefore, this good opinion that I hold of Her Majesty, Empress of India, has again compelled me to draw the attention of the esteemed lady to this gift, i.e., the "Tohfa-e-Qaisariya" treatise, and to gain happiness from a few words of royal approval. I am sending this petition with this intention. (Reference: Sitara-e-Qaisari, page 2) With the establishment of the British government, my father found a treasure of jewels. And then, when the British Government gained control over this country, he was so pleased with the establishment of this blessing, i.e., the British Government, as if he had found a treasure of jewels. (Sitara-e-Qaisari, page 3). My father was a great well-wisher and loyalist of the English government. And he was a great well-wisher and loyalist of the English government. Because of this, during the days of the 1857 excuse (i.e., the Freedom Jihad), he provided fifty horses with riders to the English government as aid, and he remained ready even after that, that if they ever needed his help again, he would help this government (Britain) with his life and soul. (Sitara-e-Qaisar, page 3) Mirza Ji wrote nearly fifty thousand books, pamphlets, and advertisements for the service of the English government. And the service that I rendered to the English government was that I printed nearly fifty thousand books, pamphlets, and advertisements and published them in this country and also in other Islamic countries with the content that the English government is the benefactor of us Muslims. (Sitara-e-Qaisar, page 3) True obedience to the British Government is the duty of every Muslim. Therefore, it should be the duty of every Muslim to sincerely obey this government (Britain) and remain grateful and prayerful for this wealth from the heart." (Sitara-e-Qaisar, page 3) Publication of English Loyalty in Islamic Countries And I compiled these books in different languages, namely Urdu, Persian, and Arabic, and spread them throughout all the countries of Islam. (Sitara-e-Qaisar, page 3) Through my efforts, millions of Muslims have abandoned the wrong ideas of Jihad. As much as possible, it was propagated, which resulted in millions of people abandoning the wrong ideas of Jihad that were in their hearts due to the teachings of ignorant mullahs. Such a service has come to pass through me that I am proud that no Muslim in British India can show its equal. (Sitara-e-Qaisari, page 4) I pray with both hands raised Along with all my loved ones, I raise both hands and pray, "O God, keep this blessed Empress of India, may her kingdom endure, safe above our heads for a long time, and with every step, may the shadow of Your help be with her, and may her days of prosperity be many." (Sitara-e-Qaisari, page 4) In the Exalted Service of Her Most Gracious Majesty the Queen And I am also appointed to convey this good news to the exalted service of Her Most Gracious Majesty the Queen, Empress of India, that just as God Almighty, with His perfect mercy and perfect wisdom, has established the reign of our Empress of India, may her prosperity endure, on the earth and through the means of the earth, in this country and other countries, so that she may fill the earth with justice and peace." (Sitara-e-Qaisari, page number not provided) From the Unseen, from the Heavens, Spiritual Arrangement He has willed from the heavens to fulfill the heartfelt intentions of this blessed emperor, which are justice and peace, general well-being of the people, and the elimination of corruption and moral refinement. and removes the savage conditions. In her blessed era, may He establish such a spiritual arrangement from His side, from the unseen, and from heaven, that may aid the noble intentions of Her Majesty the Queen. And may He assist, with heavenly irrigation, in the garden of peace, well-being, and reconciliation that you desire to plant. (Sitara-e-Qaisara, p. 4-5) The Purpose of Mirza Ji Becoming the Promised Messiah So, according to His ancient promise regarding the coming of the Promised Messiah, He has sent me from heaven, so that, being in the likeness of that man of God who was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, I may be engaged in assisting the good and blessed purposes of Her Majesty the Queen. He has touched me with infinite blessings and made me His true (one). May God help the pure intentions of Her Majesty from heaven." The Attraction of the Queen's Light "So, in your luminous era, God has sent down a light from heaven. For light attracts light, and darkness attracts darkness. O blessed and fortunate Queen of the age, in the books where the coming of the Promised Messiah is written, there are clear indications of your peaceful era. (Sitara-e-Qaisara, p. 5) Our Beloved Empress of India O our beloved Empress of India, may God keep you safe for a long time. Your good intentions and true sympathy for the subjects are no less than those of the Roman Emperor. Queen, we say with emphasis that it is much more." (Sitara-e-Qaisara, p. 6) QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2497 Mirza Ji's advent occurred due to the blessing of Queen Victoria. This Messiah, who came into the world, is the result of the blessing of your existence, your sincere good intentions, and genuine sympathy." (Sitara-e-Qaisara, page 6) God's hand is supporting Queen Victoria. "How blessed is your reign that God's hand from the heavens is supporting your objectives. Angels are clearing the paths for your sympathy towards the subjects and your good intentions." (Sitara-e-Qaisara, page) The wicked and ignoble are unappreciative of your reign. "The delicate vapors of your justice are rising like clouds to turn the entire country into an envy of spring. Wicked are those who do not appreciate your reign, and ignoble is the soul that is not grateful for your favors." (Sitara-e-Qaisara, page 7) Mirza Ji's heartfelt love for Queen Victoria. "Since it is an established fact that heart has a way to heart, I do not need to express through the eloquence of my tongue that I have heartfelt love for you, and there is special love and respect for you in my heart. Our day and night prayers for you are flowing like fresh water." (Sulha Ba Star-e-Qaisara) O blessed Empress of India, the country upon which your gaze falls is under God's gaze. "O blessed Empress of India, may this greatness and good name of yours be blessed. God's eyes are upon the country upon which your eyes are. God's hand of mercy is upon the subjects upon whom your hand is." (Pages 7-8, Sitara-e-Qaisara Hind) 2498 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 God sent Mirza through the motivation of the Queen's pure intentions. "God has sent me through the motivation of your (Queen of India's) pure intentions, so that I may re-establish the paths of piety, good morals and peacemaking in the world." (Page 8, Sitara-e-Qaisara) The service to the Queen cannot fully express the fervor of sincerity, obedience, and gratitude. Now I do not consider it appropriate to prolong this humble petition. Although I know that as much fervor as I had in my heart to express my sincerity, obedience, and gratitude to Her Majesty the Empress of India, may God prolong her reign, I could not fully express that fervor. Rather, I am compelled to end with a prayer that He (Allah Almighty) may give a good reward from the heavens to this benefactor, the Empress of India, may God prolong her reign, on our behalf. Page 12. The opponents of the British Government are thieves, pirates, and bastards. "These people started attacking their benefactor government like thieves, pirates, and bastards, and named it Jihad." (Izala-e-Auham, Part 1, Page 378) Opposition to the British Government is the work of a bastard and an immoral person. "I truly say that wishing ill to the benefactor (British Government) is the work of a bastard and an immoral person." (Worthy of Government's Attention, Page 3). Islam has two parts, the second part is obedience to the British Government. I repeatedly declare that Islam has two parts. One is to obey God Almighty. The second is to obey the government that has established peace. The government that has given us refuge in its shadow from the hands of oppressors. So that government is the British government." (Page 3 worthy of the Government's attention, attached Shahadat-ul-Quran) I have done unparalleled service to the British Government from the beginning until today. I have done such work for the welfare of the Government with my pen from the beginning until today, that the Government will not have even one example of it." (Anjam Atham, page 68) Opposition to the British Government is extreme wickedness. And I have spent thousands of rupees to write books in which I have repeatedly emphasized that Muslims should have true loyalty to this Government, and as subjects, even thinking of rebellion in their hearts is the height of wickedness. (Anjam Atham, page 68) Mirza Qadiani and the Queen of England Read the above references again and again and say with justice that the person who says that the complete spirituality of Hazrat Isa Ibn Maryam has descended upon me, and sometimes says that I am the very Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), I am a prophet and a messenger. Then this infidel praises the government in... To unite the earth and sky. And to repeatedly pray for Queen London, and to have his tongue dry from repeatedly saying "Dam-e-Iqbalia." And to wish that the Queen would write him a single royal word. To attribute the descent of his light to the attraction of the luminous era of the Queen, to call the rule of the English the mercy of God, and to send advertisements for their well-being in all countries. What a matter of regret and shame it is. Common people call such a man a "stooge" of the English. If only he would not humiliate Muslims by calling himself a Muslim. Readers, read these passages and learn a lesson from them. Are the prophets of God like this? Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Sir, I am having trouble with blood pressure. I think we should take a break so that I can take some medicine. Mr. Acting Chairman: You sit here for five minutes. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Can I read while sitting? Mr. Acting Chairman: With the permission of the House, you may read while sitting. Voices: Read while sitting. (At this stage, Maulana Abdul Hakeem sat down and began to read) QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2501 Maulana Abdul Hakeem First Issue The Life of Hazrat Isa (A.S.) 2502 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Respected audience, as we wrote on page 84 under the heading of the issue, that after the statement of Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, the entire discussion will now be on these two issues: (1) Whether Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, has passed away or is alive in the heavens and will descend again in the last era. (2) If, hypothetically, he has passed away, can Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani be the same coming Messiah, son of Mary, whose good news is present in hundreds of hadiths? Therefore, issue number 2 has been discussed extensively, which proved that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani is definitely not the coming Messiah, but he cannot even be proven to be a Muslim. Now we will discuss issue number 1, i.e., the life of Jesus, peace be upon him. Islamic Beliefs and Modern Science In the beginning, when science was being discussed and the yoke of the British slavery was also around our necks, and everyone, regardless of their knowledge, was eager to prove themselves enlightened by objecting to Islamic beliefs in the name of science, at that time, even the testimony of hands and feet on the Day of Judgment was considered objectionable. Hearing from a distance was incomprehensible, there was also discussion on the weighing of deeds, there was denial of the ascension with the body and the life of Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, and objections were also raised on his miracles of resurrecting the dead and healing the sick. Even the existence of heavens and angels was considered questionable. But as modern philosophy progressed, all doubts gradually disappeared. The gramophone needle and the plate, which represent the human brain, have explained the testimony of the hands and feet, which is more related to the human brain than the iron needle. The invention of radio also solved many problems. Films have shown all human actions. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2503 They also explained the issue of being secure. Doctors also showed their skill by reviving a dead frog. Sending rockets to the moon and Mars also explained the matter of going above. The proof of such celestial bodies (bodies) that are billions and trillions of miles away from us and all of them move regularly and move on fixed paths and do not collide with each other, has proved all those things that seemed unreasonable. And the tremendous production of light, thunder, and heat from the experiment of a negligible particle changed the standard of power itself. The flight of the airplane also solved the issue of the Throne of Solomon (peace be upon him). This discovery that trees only separate oxygen from the air and make their food showed the philosophy, but also the experience, of separating and combining winds and elements. In short, such works were seen from the material attentions of a humble human being that no one would have believed a hundred years ago. Although all these matters are related to materialism, and this is the state of electricity related to materialism, that it can pass through a sheet of iron thirty thousand miles thick in an instant. And light, which is related to objects, travels at a speed of millions of miles in minutes. Now, what estimate can you make of the power of that Supreme God who has placed these powers in all of them? Moreover, these powers have only been discovered. No one can know their reality. Then, doubting the words of the messengers who speak and inform after hearing from that Supreme God cannot be the work of any person with a sound nature. In fact, first the possibility of any work should be seen, whether it is possible to happen, if it is possible, then why not believe in the information of the pure and truthful prophets who, being more than a hundred thousand, are all in agreement. 2504 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 131st August, 1974 Debate Regarding the Status of the Life of Christ (peace be upon him) Therefore, now the debate should only be on what God and His Messenger said about this. The debate is no longer about whether it is possible or not, and as Muslims, we have to see whether the Quran and Hadith have stated that the Jews were crucifying Jesus (peace be upon him), but Allah Almighty raised him to the heavens and saved him, and near the Day of Judgment, He will descend again and bring the Jews and Christians to the right path and spread Islam throughout the world. If this is proven by the Quran and Hadith, then as Muslims, we have no room to deny it. If this is proven, then those liars who come or have come in the name of Christ will all be proven to be liars and deceivers. Two Aspects of the Issue There are two aspects to this issue. One is that Jesus, son of Mary, was raised to heaven; the second is that he is to descend. The descent is a branch of the physical ascent. If the descent is proven, then it will automatically be proven that he was raised to heaven with his body, and if the ascent is proven, then the descent and ascent become more evident in comparison. A Few Principles of Interpretation of the Holy Quran, The Qadiani Issue (1) Those meanings and interpretations of the Holy Quran will be most acceptable which are supported by other verses in the Holy Quran itself (as if Quranic evidence). (Barakat al-Dua, page 13). (2) If any interpretation of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, is proven, then that is the next in line. This is because the Holy Quran was revealed to him, and he knows its meanings best. Mirza Ji has also acknowledged this in Barkat al-Dua, page 14. (3) Thirdly, there is the interpretation of the Companions, because these individuals were the first heirs of the knowledge of prophethood. This has also been acknowledged by Mirza Ji in Barkat al-Dua, page 14. (4) The heart of a pure person, that is, one's own inspired soul, is also a good criterion for judging truth. (Barkat al-Dua, page 14) (5) This is also supported by the following statements of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani: (1) At the head of every century, God Almighty will continue to create such a person who will renew his religion. (Fath-ul-Islam, page 6/824) (2) It is stated on page 28 of Shahadat-ul-Quran that the Mujaddids do not make any additions or subtractions to the religion; rather, they re-establish the lost religion in the hearts. (Shahadat-ul-Quran, printed by Punjab Press, Sialkot) There is consensus on the fact that texts should be interpreted literally. This has been acknowledged by Mirza Ji in Izala-e-Auham, Part 1, pages 170/409. (Izala, Part 2, small, is page 540; Izala, large, is page 224) (4) In a hadith where an oath is taken, interpretation and exception are impermissible. Mirza Ji also writes in Hamamat-ul-Bushra, page 14 (printed by Munshi Ghulam Qadir): والقسم يدل على ان الخبر محمول على الظاهر لاتاويل فيه واستثناء والا فاي فائدة في القسم . "And the oath indicates that the news is to be taken literally, with no interpretation or exception. Otherwise, what is the benefit of the oath?" Translation: Translation: And in a type of Hadith, there is proof that the apparent meaning of this Hadith is acceptable. There is no interpretation or exception, otherwise, what would be the benefit of swearing an oath? (7) It is not the job of a believer to interpret based on personal opinion. (Izala, Part One, page 137, large size, page 328, small size, fifth edition) This is the subject of the noble Hadith that whoever interferes with the Holy Quran with their own opinion should make their abode in Hell. And in some narrations, it is mentioned that even if they are correct, they have still made a mistake (or as he said). In any case, the only interpretation of the Holy Quran that is valid is the one that comes from another verse of the Quran itself. Then the interpretation that the Chief of the Universe (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) himself has stated will be reliable. The third number is that of the Companions who acquired their knowledge from the Chief of the World (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). After that, it is the turn of the interpretation of those gentlemen whom Allah Almighty created in every century to refresh the religion. Apart from these four things, any interpretation that is done based on one's own opinion is absolutely not permissible, nor is it the job of a believer. And if there are words of oath in any verse or Hadith, then they should be interpreted according to their apparent meanings without interpretation or exception. (8) The Gospel of Barnabas is a very reliable Gospel. Surma Chashm Arya, pages 183/178 Keep these principles well in mind. Mirza Ji has also acknowledged them, the references of which we have given. The Accepted List of the Reformers of Thirteen Centuries There is a book called "Asal Mu'na" which was written by Khuda Bakhsh Sahib. This book was recited to Mirza Ji, upon which the second Caliph of the Mirzais and Maulvi Muhammad Ali gave their approval and endorsement. It is recorded that he enumerated the reformers of thirteen centuries, who are approximately eighty (80). We are writing the names of the famous few among them: (1) Imam Shafi'i, Reformer of the Second Century (2) Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Reformer of the Second Century (3) Abu Jafar Mujaddadi, Reformer of the Third Century (4) Abu Abd al-Rahman al-Nasa'i, Reformer of the Third Century (5) Hafiz Abu Nu'aym, Reformer of the Third Century (6) Imam Hakim Nishapuri, Reformer of the Fourth Century (7) Imam Tabari 32 (8) Imam Ghazali, Reformer of the Fifth Century (9) Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, Reformer of the Sixth Century (10) Imam Mufassir Ibn Kathir, Reformer of the Sixth Century (11) Hazrat Shahab al-Din Suhrawardi, Reformer of the Sixth Century (12) Imam Ibn al-Jawzi " " 33 (13) Hazrat Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani " (14) Imam Ibn Taymiyyah Muqbil " " of the Seventh (15) Hazrat Khawaja Moinuddin Chishti (16) Hafiz Ibn Qayyim al-Jawzi (17) Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqalani " " " "3 (18) Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti, Reformer of the Century " " and the Ninth 2308 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN "Delusion 73 31 " 131st August, 1974 (19) Mullah Ali Qari " (20) Muhammad Tahir Majrohati " " (21) Alamgir Aurangzeb " " Eleventh (22) Sheikh Ahmad Faruqi Mujaddid Alf Thani Mujaddid Sadi Yazdaham (23) Mirza Mazhar Jan Jana Dehlavi Masjid and Sadi Dwazdaham (24) Hazrat Shah Waliullah Muhaddith Dehlavi Mujaddid Sadi (25) Imam Shaukani " " (26) Shah Abdul Aziz Sahib Dehlavi (27) Shah Rafiuddin " " (28) Maulana Muhammad Ismail Shaheed" " "3 (29) Shah Abdul Qadir Sahib Mujaddidi. (30) Syed Ahmad Barelvi " " Thirteenth " " Jewish Beliefs About Jesus Christ Belief The belief of the Jews is that we killed Jesus Christ by crucifixion. They opposed Jesus Christ. Then, by telling the king, they got an order issued against him and, according to their belief, killed him by hanging him on the cross through the police. The Holy Quran strongly refutes this, but because of their saying that we killed Jesus Christ, He cursed them. And obviously, the claim of the Jews was that we killed him through crucifixion. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2509 Christian Belief The Christians themselves had not seen it, nor were the disciples present at the scene. Upon the words of the Jews, they, too, accepted that the Jews had killed Jesus (peace be upon him). Then, they fabricated the doctrine of atonement, that Jesus (peace be upon him) sacrificed himself for the salvation of the entire community and creation. He became the atonement on behalf of everyone. Some Christians say: However, some Christians hold the belief that Jesus (peace be upon him) then resurrected and ascended to heaven. Muslim Belief In this regard, the belief of Muslims is the same as what the Holy Quran has stated. The Holy Quran corrects accusations and misrepresentations about its holy prophets. Thus, Allah Almighty refuted Jesus (peace be upon him) being the son of God Almighty, and refuted Jesus (peace be upon him) and Mary (peace be upon her) being gods. The Quran also refuted the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (three gods becoming one God), and by calling Mary (peace be upon her) a truthful woman and narrating the story of the birth of Jesus (peace be upon him) – that he was born without a father by the breath of an angel – it also declared the purity of Mary (peace be upon her). The Quran, which came to make correct judgments and to declare the truth in disputes, while refuting the beliefs of Jews and Christians about Jesus (peace be upon him), negated the killing and crucifixion, and declared that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised alive to heaven. And it also declared that all Jews and Christians... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 It will be necessary to believe in Hazrat Isa (A.S.) before his death. And it was also announced that the Jews also made a plan to have Hazrat Isa (A.S.) crucified and killed, and We also made a plan, and Allah Almighty is the best of planners. This is the belief of Muslims. For thirteen and a half hundred years, Muslims have been saying, writing and believing that the Jews wanted to crucify him. But Allah Almighty raised Hazrat Isa (A.S.) to the heavens through angels. And transformed a person into the likeness of Hazrat Isa, that is, in words and appearance, who betrayed him by becoming a disciple and wanted to get Hazrat Isa (A.S.) arrested by taking the police from his side. When the police came, that person was arrested and crucified, whose appearance and words had become exactly like those of Hazrat Isa (A.S.). In this way, the plan of the Jews failed. The traitor was also punished, and Allah Almighty's plan prevailed. He raised Hazrat Isa (A.S.) from among them to the heavens. This is the decision given by the Holy Quran, and the Muslims have faith in it. And in hundreds of hadiths, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said that Isa Ibn Maryam will descend again from the sky to the earth, will kill the Dajjal. Islam will spread throughout the world, and because of this, the fighting will end, and for this reason, no jizya (tax from non-Muslims) will be taken from anyone. He will live for 20 years, perform Hajj, and get married. Then he will die. And he will be buried in the sacred shrine of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). The Belief of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Mirza Qadiani neither declared the belief of the Muslims to be correct, nor did he consider the words of the Jews and Christians to be correct, but since he himself was to become the coming Messiah, son of Mary. Therefore, he first said that the original Isa, son of Mary, has died, and no dead person can return to the world. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2511 cannot come. Therefore, I am the coming Messiah, son of Mary, and I coined the term Promised Messiah myself. Whereas all the old books mention the Messiah, son of Mary, or Jesus, son of Mary. The word Promised Messiah is nowhere to be found. Mirza Ji says that the Jews could not kill Jesus, but they certainly crucified him. They arrested him. They spat in his face, slapped him in the face, mocked him, and crucified him. They hammered nails into his body and, presuming him dead, took him down from the cross. But in reality, there was still a spark of life in him. Ointments were applied. Secret treatment was given, and after recovering, he secretly left from there and went somewhere with his mother. On the way, he reached Afghanistan. From there, he came to Punjab. Then he went to Kashmir and spent his days in Srinagar. He died there, and his grave is also there. And I am the coming Messiah, son of Mary, and I have come. Believe in me. I say that Jihad against the British is forbidden. Obedience to them is half of Islam. The Jihad of 1857 was the work of thugs. My entire family performed services for the British. I was a pauper, and when nothing else happened, I wrote books prohibiting Jihad and sent them to all Muslim countries. May God always keep the glory of Empress London established. We can do anything in her kingdom. Someone said that the coming Messiah was a prophet in the past. And even now, his status of prophethood will remain the same. He will serve the Ummah of Muhammad by this same Sharia and make it dominant. So, Mirza Ji said, I am also a prophet, and indeed, prophethood has ended. But I have become a prophet by being فنافی الرسول (absorbed in the Prophet). Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq, Hazrat Umar Farooq, Hazrat Uthman, Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Hassan, Hazrat Hussain, Hazrat Peeran-e-Peer, Hazrat Khawaja Ajmeri Imam Rabbani," and Sheikh Akbar, none of them could achieve a rank equal to mine. Only I have received the name of prophethood until the Day of Judgment. 2512 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 ... until, and there will be no prophet from the Ummah. My glory is in every way higher than that old Isa, son of Maryam. In fact, my miracles are such that the prophethood of a thousand prophets can be proven by them. This is Mirza Qadiani, and this is his belief. Now, we will shed light on this issue from the Quran and Hadith. Please read the principles stated in the introduction again and keep them in mind. Also, understand the importance of the interpretation of the Mujaddids. Proof of the Life of Jesus (peace be upon him) from Quranic Verses First verse: "And when the angels said, 'O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter." (Al-Imran) Translation: And when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed, Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him (i.e., a child), whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter." In this verse, Allah Almighty has not only mentioned the worldly dignity of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) but has also given good news of it. Now, this dignity is not the same dignity and honor that worldly people generally attain; otherwise, what would be the need to mention it, especially on the occasion of mentioning blessings and favors? Spiritual dignity is also not meant. That could have been known to Hazrat Maryam (peace be upon her) from the word "word" and the Hereafter. What is the purpose of stating "distinguished in the world"? Moreover, the honor and dignity given by Allah Almighty cannot be ordinary honor and dignity, especially as a blessing and glad tiding. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2313 Now it is obvious that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not gain worldly prestige in his early life, but the troubles that the opposition of the Jews caused are evident to everyone. Necessarily, it refers to the same prestige that will come after the descent. At that time, all the People of the Book will also believe in him. The whole world will become Muslim, and he will serve the religion in the light of the Sharia of Muhammad (PBUH) throughout the world for forty years. He will have a wife and children. What could be more worldly prestige than this? In this regard, Mirza'i references should also be noted. (1) In the pamphlet "The Messiah in India," on page 8, Mirza Ji says: "The Messiah (peace be upon him) will receive prestige, honor, status, greatness, and dignity in this life, and in the hereafter as well." Now it is obvious that حضرت مسیح did not gain any honor in the territory of Herod, but rather was subjected to extreme contempt. (2) Maulvi Muhammad Ali Lahori (Amir of the Lahori Mirza'i group) has also acknowledged that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not achieve success in Jewish Jerusalem. (Tafsir Bayan-ul-Quran, Volume 1, Page 311, published 1320 AH) (3) Until Mirza Ji himself was overtaken by the desire to become Jesus, son of Mary, he himself wrote in Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya: "He is the one who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to make it prevail over all religions." This verse is a prophecy in favor of Jesus in terms of physical and political power, and the complete dominance that has been promised for the religion of Islam will manifest with the second coming of the Messiah. So there is no choice but to accept the Muslims' meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) will come back to the world and be the master of worldly glory and majesty. Apart from this, there is no... NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 31, 1974 Mirzais cannot prove the matter of dignity with the saying of any commentator or reviver. Second Verse: فلما احس عيسى منهم الكفر قال من انصاري الى الله قال الحواريون نحن انصار الله ج آمنا بالله واشهد بانا مسلمون . ربنا أمنا بما انزلت واتبعنا الرسول فاكنينا مع الشاهدين، ومكر و ومكر الله والله خير الماكرين Translation: Then when Jesus (peace be upon him) sensed denial from those people, he said, "Who will be my helpers in the way of Allah?" The disciples said, "We are helpers of Allah's religion. We believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims. Our Lord, we believe in what You have revealed and we follow the Messenger, so write us among the witnesses." And they (the Jews) plotted, and Allah also plotted. And Allah is the best of planners. (Greater than all planners) In this verse, Allah Almighty has stated that the Jews plotted and We also plotted, and whose plot can be better than Our plot? The plot of the Jews was to arrest Jesus (peace be upon him) and crucify him so that, according to Mirza, according to the teachings of the Torah (God forbid), he would become cursed. Allah Almighty's plan was to raise Jesus (peace be upon him) to the sky through an angel, and to make another man similar to his appearance, who had spied and had you arrested and crucified. Consequently, the same (spy) was crucified. All his cries were in vain. Everyone understood him to be the Messiah, son of Mary. He was considering the people crazy as to why they were killing an innocent person. ...they live, and people considered him mad and said that he was pretending to be mad to escape death. Now, admire Mirzaji's ability: the teaching of the Torah was that whoever is hanged on the cross is cursed. Can an innocent person become cursed in the eyes of God by being hanged? The Torah also mentions a sinful and criminal person. ...martyred. According to the instructions of the Quran, how many innocent prophets were killed who were martyred? (At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) Also, admire Maulana Abdul Hakeem Mirzaji's other ability: that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) was arrested. They spat on his face (God forbid), slapped him, crucified him, hammered nails into him, mocked him thoroughly, and he kept calling out to God. And eventually, they took him down, assuming him to be killed. Was this God's plan! Who is the best of planners. In this way, the Jews' plan succeeded, and according to Mirzaji, Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) was humiliated in every way, and the Jews did whatever they wanted. They even convinced the Christians that they had killed Jesus Christ. Mirzaji says that God's plan was not to let him die. Was this the plan that Allah Almighty will present as a favor on the Day of Judgment? So, it is known that what the Muslims understand is the truth. Listen to what the Mujaddidin have written regarding this Holy Verse. (1) Hazrat Mujaddid of the sixth century, Imam Fakhruddin Razi, has written in Tafsir Kabir that the Jews' plan was to prepare for the killing, and God's plan was that Jibrail... KANGEY THE OKO LANDET VE FAKISTAN [August 31st, 1974 Hazrat Isa (A.S.) was raised to the heavens through a window in the house, and another person was made to resemble Hazrat Isa (A.S.), whom the Jews crucified. Thus, Allah did not allow the evil of the Jews to reach him. Commentary of Mujaddid of the Sixth Century, Hazrat Hafiz Ibn Kathir (2) He also wrote that Hazrat Isa (A.S.) was taken to the heavens, and in his place, that treacherous person was crucified, whose appearance was made like that of Hazrat Isa (A.S.). (3) Hazrat Mujaddid of the Tenth Century, Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti, stated that the Jews made arrangements to kill Isa (A.S.). But Allah Almighty devised a plan to raise him to the heavens and made another man resemble him, who was then crucified. (4) The same interpretation was given by Mujaddid of the Twelfth Century, Hazrat Shah Waliullah Sahib Dehlvi, who said that God raised Hazrat Isa (A.S.) towards the heavens, and another man was killed, being mistaken for Isa (A.S.). Verse number 3 Now, how can one who does not accept the interpretation of these Mujaddids be a Muslim? In this verse, Allah Almighty reassured Hazrat Isa (A.S.) by detailing His plan. Wa iz qala-Allahu ya Isa inni mutawaffeeka wa rafi'uka ilaiya wa mutahhiruka minallazeena kafaroo wa ja'ilullazeen-attabauka fauqallazeena kafaroo ila yaumal qiyamati summa ilayya marji'ukum fa'ahkumu bainakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoon. Translation: When Allah said, "O Isa, I will take you completely and raise you towards Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make your followers superior to the disbelievers until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me will be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ." QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2517 I will keep (it) dominant. Then you will come to me, and I will judge between you." Here, the ignorance of Mirza Qadiani will become quite clear to you. Because what does Mirza Ji mean by "Mutawaffika"? "I will give you death." Is this any consolation that the Jews say they will kill him, and Allah Almighty gives consolation that "I will give death." This is even more frightening and disturbing. See what the Mujaddids, who are also accepted Mujaddids by the Mirzais, have to say about the meaning of "Mutawaffika." A Mujaddid's Interpretation The meaning and interpretation of this verse is the same as what we have stated here, according to Mujaddid of the eighth century, Imam Razi, in Tafsir Kabir. He says that "Tawaffa" means "to take something completely into one's control." O Isa, I will complete your life and then give you death. I will not leave you to these Jews to kill, but rather I will raise you to the heavens and save you from falling into their hands. Allah Almighty knew that some people would think that it was not the body but the soul of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) that was raised. Therefore, He said "Mutawaffika" so that it would be known that both the soul and the body were raised to the heavens. If it is said that when "Tawaffa" means to take complete control, then what is the need to say "Rafika" after that? The answer to this is that there are two ways to take complete control. One is through death. The other is by raising (someone) to the heavens with their body. "Rafika" specifies the second meaning. (This entire statement was from Hazrat Imam Razi.) 2518 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 31st, 1974 Commentary on the Second Mujaddid Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti, who is the Mujaddid of the century according to both Qadianis and Lahoris. And they consider him to be a man of such stature that he can directly ask the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) about controversial issues. (Izala Auham) He says: (Jalalain) O Jesus, I will take you fully ( قبضك ) and raise you to Myself ( من الدنيا من غير موت تقير ) (from the world without death). We have given those meanings of the Holy Quran which are also supported by other verses. Then The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) mentions the descent of Jesus, son of Mary, swearing an oath. Which according to the aforementioned principle is based on appearance. Then the Companions said the same, and the interpretation of the two Mujaddids is also before you. But the Mirzais keep repeating one thing. And acting on this saying that tell so many lies that it seems to be true. Mirzais try to become grocers by taking turmeric powder. And especially deceive people by taking the meaning of Ibn Abbas. Therefore, we want to shed some detailed light on the meaning of "Tawaffi" and the interpretation of Hazrat Ibn Abbas. Research on the word "Tawaffi" The literal meaning of "Tawaffi" is "Akhz us-Shay'i Wafiya" i.e. to fully control something or to take it completely. It is from "Wafa" not from "Faut". Its real meaning is the same as the two Mujaddids have stated. Now, in comparison to these Mujaddids, how can we accept the words of Mirza Qadiani, a special loyalist of the British? QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2519 Commentary on the Third Reformer Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, the reformer of the seventh century, writes in his book "Al-Jawab Al-Sahih Liman Baddala Deen Al-Masih" (Volume 2, page 280): "The word 'tawaffi' in the Arabic language means 'istiifa' and 'qabdh' (i.e., to take something completely and to take control of it). It has three types: one is the tawaffi of sleep, one is the tawaffi of death, and one is the tawaffi of both body and soul. Thus, he (Jesus) departed from the state of the people of the earth." Translation: The meaning of "Tawaffi" in the Arabic language is "Istifa" and "Qabz" (meaning to take something completely and take control of it). It has three types: one is the Tawaffi of sleep, one is the Tawaffi of death, and one is the Tawaffi of both body and soul. And Jesus (peace be upon him) separated from the people of the earth in the third way. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Sahib! Take a rest for two minutes. About 80 pages are left; they will be finished in two hours. (Pause) Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Sir! May I have permission? Mr. Chairman: Then continue until 2 o'clock. It will be finished in one hour in the evening. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Sir! May I have permission? Mr. Chairman: One second. Then we will continue until 1:30. Then we will start again at 5:30 in the evening and finish by Maghrib prayer. 1 2324 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Mian Muhammad Ataullah: Mr. Speaker! In my opinion, the material that is now left, Maulana Sahib can easily read it in an hour. Mr. Chairman: No, half an hour is fine. Then we will review it. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Sir, may I have permission? Translation: And the proof of the descent of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) is this verse: "And there is none from the People of the Book but that he will surely believe in him before his death..." and the truth is that he was raised to the heavens with his body, and it is obligatory to believe in this. (2) Mujaddid of the Seventh Century, Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, in his book "Al-Jawab al-Sahih li man Baddal Din al-Masih," Volume Two, page 281, states: Translation: "Except that he will surely believe in him" means beneficial faith, which is before death. The faith at the time of gargling and agony of death is of no benefit. And it is for all the disbelievers and for accepting all the things. Which they used to deny. There is no exclusivity for Hazrat Masih in this. "Surely believe" is only used in the future tense. And all the People of the Book will believe before the death of Hazrat Masih (peace be upon him). (3) Hazrat Abu Hurairah is a great companion. He narrated a Hadith and recited this verse and stated that this verse mentions the life of the same Messiah (peace be upon him) whose descent was foretold by the Leader of the Worlds (peace and blessings be upon him). No one among the thousands of companions denied it, and thus a consensus of the companions was established on this matter. Mr. Chairman: It's half past one. How much stamina do you have? Maulana Abdul Haleem: I am completely lifeless. Mr. Chairman: What is your opinion? Members: Monday. Mr. Chairman: Not Monday. No question arises. Not tomorrow morning, but this evening it will take an hour. Half past five. After that, if any members want to have a short discussion, they can certainly do so until evening. After that, when the book is finished, then the general debate will start from Monday morning. The Committee of the whole House is adjourned to meet at 5.30 p.m. today. The Special Committee adjourned for lunch Break to re-assemble at 5.30 p.m. The Special Committee re-assemble after lunch break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Maulana Abdul Hakim. Mr. Chairman: Yes, start. (At this stage Mr. Chairman Vacated the Chair which was occupied by Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi) LULL NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 31, 1974 The Holy Quran and the word "Tawaffa" Maulana Abdul Hakeem: The word "Tawaffa" has appeared in the Holy Quran in twenty-two places. If the real meaning of "Tawaffa" is taken to mean giving death, as claimed by Mirza Sahib, then it does not make sense in some places. (1) Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that do not die, in their sleep. Then He withholds those for whom He has decreed death and sends the others back for a specified term. Translation: Allah Almighty takes control of the souls at the time of their death, and those who do not die, He takes control of them in their sleep. Then, those for whom He has decreed death, He withholds them, and sends the other souls back until an appointed term. If it is taken to mean giving death, then it would mean that Allah Almighty gives death to the souls, which is wrong. Rather, the meaning is that Allah Almighty takes control of the souls, both at the time of death and at the time of sleep. (2) And He is the One who takes you in the night and knows what you have earned by day. Translation: God is the One who takes control of you at night and knows what you do during the day. Here too, "Tawaffa" means sleep. Otherwise, it would be necessary for all people to die at night. (3) And those who complete their term among you. When the recitation is with a "zabar" (a diacritical mark) then it cannot mean giving death here, otherwise, it would mean those who give death to themselves. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2523 The real and literal meaning of "Tawaffi" is this. And since the soul is also taken (seized) in death, it is called "Tawaffi". Similarly, in sleep, the soul is, in a way, seized. Therefore, it is also called "Tawaffi". But besides the original meaning, there is a need for context and evidence for the rest of the meanings, as there are contexts in some other verses of the Holy Quran. Because of which it means death there. A Problem As for the issue that if the use of a word mostly starts happening in its religious or customary meaning instead of its original meaning, does it mean that this word will never be used in its original meaning now? This is absolutely wrong. First example For example, the meaning of "Salat" is prayer, but in religious terminology, "Salat" is a specific form of worship in which there are bowing and prostrations, etc., and in the Holy Quran, "Salat" is used in this technical meaning in hundreds of places, for example, in the Holy Quran: وصلى عليهم ان صلوتك سكن لهم ه Translation: And pray for them because your prayer is a source of peace for them. Second example Similarly, the word "Zakat" is mostly used in a specific meaning, that is, a specific method of financial worship, but it is also used in its original meaning without any hesitation. For example, وحنا ناً من لدنا وزكواة وكان تقياً ل Translation: And We gave tenderness and purity from Ourselves to (John), and he was righteous. Here, "Zakat" is used in its original meaning of purity. That is, cleanliness and purity. 2524 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Like the word "Tawaffa," it is mostly used to mean taking the soul, whether in the form of sleep or death, but sometimes it is also used to mean taking both the soul and the body, and that is its original meaning. Meaning, "Al-akhzaihi wa afia" (to take full control of something, as the linguists and revivalists have said). A Mirzai Fallacy and Its Response Mirza Qadiani and his followers used to say that when the doer of "Tawaffa" is God and the object is a living being, then its meaning is the taking of the soul and death. This is a deception or fallacy. We say that if the doer of "Tawaffa" is God, the object is a living being, and then "Rafa" is mentioned after it, then the meaning of "Tawaffa" is the raising of both body and soul. Another Deception The Mirzais, and even Mirza himself, have greatly tried to deceive the Muslims with this statement of Hazrat Ibn Abbas, that he has interpreted "Mutawaffika" in Bukhari as "Mumeetuka," that I am the one who will give you death. As if they believe in the death of Christ. This is absolutely a deception and wrong that Hazrat Abdullah bin Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) has interpreted "Mutawaffika" as "Mumeetuka." This is a consolation and a promise that I will take you completely and raise you to myself. Now, when did God fulfill this promise? We say that when they intended to crucify him, Allah Almighty, according to the promise, took him completely and raised him towards the sky. The Mirzais say that after enduring complete pain and suffering for a year, he was given death. Death is given to everyone, what kind of promise was this? Was this befitting of Allah Almighty? VALIMNI JUDGENERAL DISCUSSION But the meaning of Imamate is not only to give death but also to put to sleep and make unconscious. (See Mirza Ji's book Izala Auham Part II, page 1298) So the meaning is that, O Jesus, I am going to lift you up to the sky after putting you to sleep or making you unconscious. So now all the verses and interpretations have become the same. The second thing is that if we take the meaning of "Mumik" to mean to give death, then it means that, O Jesus, I will give you death. This cannot be given, and I am raising you towards the sky and purifying you from these people. It seems that they believe in precedence and delay in the verse, that I will give death, but later, and for the time being, I am raising you. We do not do this meaning on our own, like the Mirzais, but Mujaddid Sadi Tamim Imam "Jalaluddin Suyuti himself has narrated a narration from Hazrat Ibn Abbas that Tabi'i Dhahak narrates from Hazrat Ibn Abbas that what is meant here is that I will raise you and then kill you in the last era (Dur Mansur). Similarly, Mujaddid Sadi Waham Hazrat Allama Muhammad Tahir Gujrati, the author of Majma' al-Bihar, said that "إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ عَلَى التَّقْدِيمِ وَالتَّأْخِيرِ وَيُحْيَى آخِرَ الزَّمَانِ لِتَوَاتُرِ خَيْرِ النُّزُولِ." Translation: These Mutawaffik and Rafiak are with precedence and delay, Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will come in the last era because the news of his descent is continuous. Imam Razi has written in Tafsir Kabir Volume II Surah Al-Imran that the sequence is not proved here by Waw that first there is death and then ascension, but the meaning of the verse is that Allah Almighty What will they do? When will the rest be done? How will they do it? This matter depends on proof, and it has been proven with evidence that Hazrat Isa (A.S.) is alive. And it is proven from the Prophet (P.B.U.H.) that he will descend and kill the Dajjal. Then, after that, Allah Almighty will grant him death. And this precedence and postponement are abundant in the Quran, for example: (1) O Maryam, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow. Translation: O Maryam, worship your Lord and prostrate and bow. So, it is not proven from here that one should prostrate before bowing because the mention of prostration came first. (2) Similarly, "And We inspired to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and We gave to David the book [of Psalms]." In this verse as well, the sequence is not proven by "and" because Hazrat Isa (A.S.) came after the mentioned prophets (peace be upon them all), but his mention is first in the verse. (3) If we say that Zaid, Umar, Bakr, and Khalid came here, it does not mean that Zaid came first, then Umar, then Bakr, and finally Khalid. "And" is not for sequence. The meaning is that all these gentlemen came. As for how and in what sequence they came, it is not mentioned. The point is that even if we take the meaning of Hazrat Ibn Abbas's words to be "to cause death," even then, he believes in the life of the Messiah and believes in precedence and postponement in the verse. A Few Points and Questions (1) When there is "wafat" (death) after "tawaffa" (to take fully), and the occurrence of "rafa" (raising) is also later, then its meaning will certainly not be death. There is no such example. DISCUSSION ON YAVINIS ADQUEMINERAL (2) In the previous verse, it is mentioned that the Jews also plotted, and Allah Almighty also devised a plan, and who can devise a plan better than Allah? Now, tell me, if we accept the interpretation of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and do not take the meaning of "Mutawaffika" according to the Mujaddids and Muhaddithin of the past thirteen hundred years, then whose plan prevailed? The Jews' or Allah Almighty's? According to Mirza Ji, the Jews had Jesus arrested, mocked, spat on his face, slapped him, crucified him, hammered nails into his limbs, and did whatever they could. Finally, considering him dead, they took him down from the cross. However, he was still alive. He was given secret treatment, he survived, and after the wounds healed, he left with his mother, crossing the jungles, deserts, rivers, and wildernesses of two thousand years ago, reaching Afghanistan somehow, and then somehow came to Punjab. Somehow he reached Srinagar, spent his entire life there in anonymity, and died. The Jews, on their part, killed him and declared him accursed, convincing the Christians who were not present at the scene, who then fabricated the doctrine of atonement. All Allah Almighty could do was prevent him from dying on the cross. Was this the best plan of Allah Almighty? And then, on the Day of Judgment, will He remind them of this favor that He kept the Children of Israel away from you? Shouldn't He have stopped them? (3) Does the spiritual ascension not happen to others after death? What is the specific distinction of Jesus in this? (3) If "Mutawaffika" means death and "Raafa'ika" also means raising the soul, then the word "Raafa'ika" becomes redundant and useless, which detracts from the eloquence of the Quran. does not last. Whose glory is the highest and most exalted, and it does not happen in Arabic. (5) This plan of God Almighty was for the time of the tribulation of the cross. It was for the consolation of that time that "Indeed, I will cause you to die" was said. According to Mirza Ji, this spiritual ascension took place at that time, and death occurred when all kinds of troubles had passed. Verse number 4 Good consolation was given! And for their disbelief and uttering against Mary a great falsehood, And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. Translation: And We cursed them (these Jews) because of their disbelief and their uttering a great slander against Mary, and because of their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah." But they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; rather, (a man) was made to resemble him to them. And those who differ about it are in doubt about it. They have no definite knowledge of this incident. Only following assumption (conjecture). And they did not kill him (Jesus Christ) for certain. Rather, Allah the Exalted raised him to Himself, and Allah is the All-Powerful and Wise. This noble verse has completely decided the main issue that neither did the Jews kill حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام (Hazrat Isa AS) nor crucified him, but Allah Almighty raised him to Himself. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2529 Mirza Ji sometimes says that the soul was raised, and sometimes he says that raising means giving respect. Please consider yourself. (1) The raising mentioned in the Holy Quran is of the same being whose killing the Jews claimed. So were they killing the soul? Or was the act of killing happening to both body and soul? It is clear from this that the raising was of the one whom they wanted to kill or crucify. And Jesus Christ had both body and soul. Not just the soul. (2) وما قتلوها وما صلبوه And then وما قتلوہ when all pronouns refer to Jesus Christ, then why doesn't the pronoun in رفعہ اللہ refer to him? (3) This point is also worth considering that the mention of raising is of the same time when they wanted to kill him. Mirza Ji, taking the raising of the soul to mean the spiritual raising in Kashmir 87 years later, This is what you do, and this is how men act. (4) The Jews did not believe in absolute killing, but they believed in killing through crucifixion. So when Allah Almighty said وما قتلوه وماصلبوہ, it means that those Jews did not kill him. Nor did they crucify him. Mirza Ji's translation is that they neither killed him nor killed him by crucifixion. (What an ugly translation) (5) The verse says that they did not kill Jesus Christ, but Allah Almighty raised him to Himself. Every wise person knows that the statement after "but" is the opposite of the statement before "but". For example, if it is said that Zaid did not go to Lahore NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (31st August, 1974 Rather, he went to Sialkot. Or, one might say, Zaid is not a Muslim but a Mirza'i, which does not mean that the second statement contradicts the first. Now, Allah Almighty's statement that they were not killed, but rather I raised them to Myself, this can only be true if physical ascension is intended. Otherwise, Mirza Sahib's meaning would be that they were not killed, but rather Allah Almighty gave them death. There is no contradiction between killing and death because death also occurs in killing. This "bill" has also exposed the Mirzais. Everyone knows that even in murder, it is God who gives death. So what does it mean to say that they were not killed, but rather God gave them death? (1) It is clear from the verse that at the time of the intention to kill, God Almighty saved him by raising him to Himself. And Mirza Sahib says that 87 years after this event, he died an anonymous death in Srinagar (God forbid). Statements of the Mujaddids of the Ummah (1) In the interpretation of this noble verse, the Mujaddid of the ninth century, Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti, states: “And the Jews could neither kill Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, nor crucify him. Rather, what happened was that an image of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, was made for the Jews, and he was killed and crucified.” Tafsir Jalalain under the noble verse. (2) Mujaddid of the thirteenth century, Hazrat Maulana Shah Abdul Qadir Sahib Dehlvi states in his translation that: “Neither did they kill Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, nor did they crucify him.” (3) And Allah is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. Here the verse was completed, stating that Allah Almighty possesses perfect power and perfect knowledge. So Allah Almighty cautioned that raising Jesus, peace be upon him, from the world to the heavens, although it seems impossible to humans, is not impossible in light of My power and wisdom. This interpretation was given by Hazrat Imam Razi, the rejuvenator of the sixth century. The First Point There are five points here. If the meaning of "cross" is execution by crucifixion, then what is the word in Arabic for "to crucify"? The Second Point Is that if Jesus, peace be upon him, was crucified, then instead of stating their killing as the reason for the curse, it would have been said (وہ صلبهم) meaning that the curse was because of crucifying Jesus, peace be upon him. The Third Point Is that the Jews were of the opinion that they had killed Jesus, peace be upon him, by crucifixion. Then (ماقتلوہ) would have been sufficient. What was the need for (وما صلیبوں) . It is known that "cross" only means crucifixion, and Allah Almighty wants to fully reveal the truth. The Fourth Point Is that the event of the crucifixion definitely happened. Millions of people knew. One man was given a likeness and it was publicized that he was Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. Then the question arose that if he was not Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, then who was it that was crucified? The answer to this was given by the Holy Quran: "But they were given the semblance of him." (This was the traitor Judas) He was hanged on the cross and brought to his just end. Fifth point: Where did the Messiah, peace be upon him, go then? The answer given was: "But Allah raised him up unto Himself." In the end, by saying "Almighty, Wise," He strengthened the belief of Muslims more and more. (At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Verse number 5 "And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them." Translation: All the sects of the People of the Book will believe in Jesus, peace be upon him, before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them. (Section number 2, paragraph number 6) The meaning is that all the People of the Book will believe in Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, before his death, and he will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection. This Holy Verse has very clearly declared that Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, is alive. Before his death, the Jews and Christians will believe in him. It is as if those scores of hadiths are in accordance with this verse. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2533 are explanations in which it is stated that Hazrat Isa (A.S.) will descend as a just ruler (one who makes decisions) and will kill the Antichrist. At that time, Islam will spread to all corners of the world, and the Jews and Christians who survive will all believe in him. After witnessing such miracles and victories, which will occur exactly according to Islamic traditions, why would they not believe? Now, please read the translation of the fourth and fifth verses together again. (1) Mirza Ji is badly stuck in the translation and meaning of this verse. Sometimes he says that the Jews and Christians will remain until the Day of Judgment. However, who will remain alive after the trumpet is blown (the bugle is sounded)? In all such verses, the meaning is near the Day of Judgment, otherwise, it is a common idiom. For example, if we say that the Mirzais cannot prove Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a Muslim until the Day of Judgment, it does not mean that our debate will continue until the Day of Judgment. (2) Sometimes Mirza Ji says that all the Jews and Christians believe in the correct thing before dying because they come to know the truth at the time of death. With these things, Mirza Ji wants to control his followers and deceive simple people. Otherwise, everyone can understand that the form (Layؤmnن) in the Holy Verse has specified this thing with the future, that in the future it will happen that they will surely believe. But Mirza Ji translates its meaning as Liؤmn instead of Layؤmn that all the people of the book believe, whereas this is completely wrong according to the rules of grammar. 2534 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 (3) Then, Mirza Sahib here interprets the meaning of Iman (faith) as the Iman (faith) at the last moment (the time of death rattle and conflict), which is not an acceptable Iman (faith), just like the Iman (faith) of Pharaoh at the time of drowning was rejected. Whereas in the Holy Quran, in just one Surah Al-Baqarah, the word Iman (faith) or its derivatives have been mentioned approximately fifty times. In all those places, rather in hundreds of other places in the Holy Quran, Iman (faith) means acceptable Iman (faith). Whenever Mirza Sahib wants to deceive in the meaning of a verse, he writes that this word has been used in the Quran in this meaning in so many places, but here, he has tried to deceive by avoiding the meaning of Iman (faith) as acceptable Iman (faith) in hundreds of places. (4) If Iman (faith) means only rejected and unacceptable Iman (faith), then it would not have been said "before his death," because the Iman (faith) before death is acceptable and approved, there the Iman (faith) at the time of death, i.e., the death rattle, is not acceptable, so instead of "before his death" it should have been "at the time of his death" so that those People of the Book would have known the truth at the time of death, Whereas a book as eloquent and fluent as the Holy Quran does not say "at the time of his death" but says "before his death." (5) Sometimes Mirzais take refuge in the argument that the pronoun in "before his death" does not refer to Jesus (peace be upon him) and they take the support of a rare recitation in which instead of "before his death" it is "before their death." Whereas, firstly, what is the credibility of a rare recitation against a continuous recitation when it is weak. Then, if it is accepted, then in that case, the meaning will be done in such a way that it is in accordance with the continuous recitation. This is how we will interpret it. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION It will be such that when (Jesus Christ) returns, all the remaining People of the Book will believe in حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام (Jesus Christ) before their death. And this meaning is in exact accordance with the dozens of Hadiths that Islam will spread throughout the world in the time of حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام (Jesus Christ). (1) Now read verse number 4 and verse number 5 together, here the mention is of حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام (Jesus Christ). They did not kill him. They did not crucify him. Allah Almighty raised him to Himself. All the People of the Book will have to believe in him before his death. And he will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection. All pronouns refer to حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام (Jesus Christ), he is the one being mentioned. To give any other meaning is tantamount to making fun of the Holy Quran. The decision of the Holy Quran is very clear. (2) Now, take a look at Mirza Qadiani's translation and enjoy it a bit. He writes its meaning in Izala Auham, first edition, as follows: There is none among the People of the Book who does not believe in our aforementioned statement that we (God) have revealed regarding the thoughts of the People of the Book, before they believe in the reality that the Messiah died a natural death. First of all, no one will understand the meaning of Mirza Ji's translation. Even if they do understand, Mirza Nasir Ahmad and all the Mirzais should tell us which words of the Holy Quran are translated by these words that Mirza Ji has dragged into the translation. Otherwise, then be prepared for Hell according to the Hadith of the Messenger. Mirza Ji himself has written that 2535 2536 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 31st, 1974 It is not the work of a believer to interpret according to his own opinion. Izala Auham, Part 1, page 137 If you have faith, then prove this meaning from the revivers of thirteen hundred years or from any hadith. The meaning of this Holy Verse is absolutely clear. But it seems appropriate to state some sayings of the pious predecessors for further clarification or corroboration. Imam Sha'rani writes in Al-Yawaqit wal Jawahir, Volume 2, pages 130-131: "The proof of his descent is the saying of Allah Almighty: "And there is none of the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death." that is, when he descends... And the truth is that he was raised with his body and soul, not to the sky, and belief in him is obligatory." A Challenge If Maulana Abdul Hakeem writes according to the meaning of Muslims, then the meaning is obvious, but the Mirzais should explain what is the meaning of: "And on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them." What will he be a witness to? All the disbelievers will recognize the truth and falsehood at the time of death. So, who will he testify against and to what? Second Challenge Can the name of even one Muhaddith, Mufassir, and Mujaddid be mentioned who has interpreted this verse in the way that Mirza Ji has done? If this is a fabricated meaning, then remember Mirza Ji's saying that inventing a new meaning is heresy and atheism. (Izala Auham, First Edition, page...) Verse Number 6 And when Allah said, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Holy Spirit, speaking to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you And [mention] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Holy Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs, but those who disbelieved among them said, "This is nothing but obvious magic." (End of section number 4) Translation: And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother, when I aided you with the Holy Spirit. You spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age. And when I taught you the Book, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. And when you created from clay a form like that of a bird by My command, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My command. And when I kept the Children of Israel away from you. When you brought them clear proofs, the disbelievers among them said, "This is nothing but plain magic." In this noble verse, Allah Almighty mentions the Day of Resurrection, that on that day, Allah Almighty, while mentioning His favors upon Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him), will say, in addition to other favors, that I kept them away from you. That is, not only did I prevent them from assault and harm, but I did not even allow them to reach you. This mentions the blessing of complete protection, and in this form, it is a blessing and favor from Allah, otherwise, as Mirza Qadiani has stated, it is just a joke. Here, the Mirzais have objected that after the promise of infallibility, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)... ...after the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) suffered pain in the Battle of Uhud. Firstly, the answer to this is that infallibility and protecting are different things, and "Kaf" meaning to restrain is another thing. Secondly, this noble verse is from Surah Al-Ma'idah, which was revealed between 3 and 5 AH. Maulvi Muhammad Ali, the leader of the Ahmadiyya community of Lahore, has acknowledged this in his commentary "Bayan-ul-Quran," published in 1320 AH, page 588. Specifically, the noble verse "And Allah will protect you from the people" was revealed during the Dhat-ur-Riqa' expedition, the Anmar Battle, which took place in 5 AH. This is according to the "Muslim Mujaddid Sadi Najm Imam Suyuti," in Tafsir al-Itqan, part 1, page 19. Thus, Mirza Qadiani's writing on page 151 of "Nuzul-ul-Masih" that the Prophet (peace be upon him) suffered in the Battle of Uhud after the promise of infallibility is proven to be completely false. Now, observe the opinions of the "Mujaddidin." In this, Allah the Almighty has clearly stated among His favors that He restrained the Children of Israel from you. Whereas, according to Mirza Ji, God Almighty restrained these Jews in such a way that they seized him, spat in his face, slapped him, mocked him, crucified him, nailed his limbs, and he kept screaming, "Oh God, why have you forsaken me?" Then the Jews, thinking him dead, took him down. Secret treatment was done. They kept applying ointment, and eventually, after recovering, he fled from there and, crossing mountains, rivers, and deserts, reached the border of Punjab. Then somehow he reached Kashmir and in Srinagar, (after repenting) spent a quiet life and died there. According to the Mirzais, this was God Almighty's successful plan, and in this way, God Almighty did not allow the Jews to reach the Messiah. (Indeed, we belong to Allah, and indeed, to Him, we will return). Meaning of "Kaf" The meaning of "Kaf" in Arabic is to restrain. It is in the Holy Quran: QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2539 Surah Ash-Shura: "Yakfu Aydiyahum" Surah Al-Ma'idah: "Fakaffa Aydiyahum Ankum" Surah An-Nisa: "Kuffu Aydiyahum" Surah Al-Fath: "Wa Kaffa AydiyAn-Naas Ankum" "Allazi Kaffa Aydiyahum Ankum Wa Aydiyakum Anhum" In all these instances, the Holy Quran has used this "Kaff" (restraint) in the sense of holding back. Miracle of the Holy Quran Since in these places there was a confrontation or a situation of conflict, Allah Almighty stated that He had prevented one's hand from reaching the other. However, in the story of Jesus (peace be upon him), there was no confrontation or direct encounter with the Jews and the police, so He did not say, "We held back the Children of Israel from you." Neither could they reach him, nor did a situation of confrontation arise. This is also a form of miracle. Now, observe the opinions of the Mujaddids (Reformers). (1) Mujaddid of the 9th century Hijri, Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti, in Tafsir Jalalain under the verse in question, states: "Wa Kahlan" proves his descent before the Hour because he was raised before old age as it preceded in Al-Imran. Translation: "And as a mature man" proves that Jesus (peace be upon him) will descend before the Day of Judgement because he was raised before old age. 2540 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 31st, 1974 (2) Mujaddid of the sixth century, Imam Fakhruddin Razi, states: It is narrated that the age of Isa (peace be upon him) at the time of his ascension was thirty-three and a half years. According to this estimate, he did not reach old age, and there are two answers to this... and The second is the saying of Al-Hussein bin Al-Fadl, that what is meant by "and as an old man" is that he will be an old man after he descends from The sky at the end of time and speaks to people and kills the Antichrist. Al-Hussein bin Al-Fadl said that in this verse, there is a text that he (peace be upon him) will descend to earth. Translation: It is narrated that when Isa (peace be upon him) was raised, his age was 33 1/2 years (as if He did not speak to people in middle age.) Hazrat Hussain bin Al-Fadl Says that what is meant is that after the descent, he will speak during the time of old age. Not getting old after two thousand years, then becoming middle-aged and talking, this is the It is a blessing that Allah Almighty will remind on the Day of Judgment. Hazrat Hussain bin Fadl Says that it is stated in the verse that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will soon be on earth. Will descend. The other favor of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) is talking in the cradle, what is so difficult about this? When Samri's idol, which was made of metal, spoke from the soil under Jibril (peace be upon him)'s feet, So those elders who were born from the blowing of Jibril (peace be upon him). Of them Why is talking in childhood surprising? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has written that my This boy spoke twice in his mother's womb. God knows where he put his ear to listen to these things. Heard. Anyway, this is more difficult than that. Verse number: And when Allah said, O Isa, son of Mary, did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah?" He said, "I have no knowledge of what is in Your Self. Indeed, You are the Knower of the unseen. I did not say to them except what He commanded me to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them. But when You took me, You were the Watcher over them, Glory be to You! It is not for me to say what I have no right to. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is in my soul, and I do not know what is in Yours. Indeed, You are the Knower of all hidden things. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a guardian (or witness) over them as long as I was among them. But when You took me up, You Yourself were the Guardian (or Witness), and You are the Witness over all things (and aware). If You punish them, they are Your servants. (You have the right) And if You forgive them, then You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise (and can do everything). Here, Allah Almighty mentions the Day of Judgment. This is not because Allah Almighty does not know, or that Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, is, God forbid, accused, but rather to humiliate and silence the People of the Book. Because Christians used to make him God for that reason. He thought, or deliberately fabricated a lie, that this teaching was revealed by Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). The answer to this question, Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) would say the same thing that befits a prophet. In the end, he will say, "As long as I was among them, I was their guardian, but when you raised me, then you yourself were the guardian and witness." Mirza Sahib has misinterpreted the meaning of "Tawaffaitani" here as "when you gave me death," but it is clearly wrong because Mirza Sahib kills him in Srinagar eighty-seven years after the event of the crucifixion, and until then, according to him, he was alive, and the Christians had already gone astray before him. As he writes on page 254 of Chashma Maarifat: "Not even thirty years had passed on the Gospel when the worship of the helpless man took the place of God." Thus, according to Mirza Sahib, the Christians had gone astray eighty to ninety years before the death of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). So how could he say that he was a witness before his death? He was wandering in weights, mountains, rivers, and deserts, and then reached Sri Muhammad, while it was difficult to reach there without an army in that era and to be aware of the conditions of his people. Also, according to the Mirza'i translation of the Holy Verse, it appears that the separation of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) from those people was through death. Whereas, according to Mirza Sahib, the separation took place long ago, and the death later. Now, observe the miracle of the Holy Verse that He said, "As long as I was among them, "He did not say "As long as I was alive." Rather, He said, "As long as I was among them." The meaning is clear that when you were taken to heaven, how could your responsibility or supervision remain? Mirza Ji, to fool people, says that when they come again, how can they say that they have no knowledge? (1) Although it is not so in the Holy Quran. And if this is the meaning, then what does Mirza Ji think about all the prophets (peace be upon them) when they will be asked on the Day of Judgment? مَاذَا اُجِبْتُمْ قَالُوْا لَا عِلْمَ لَنَا Translation: "What answer were you given?" They will say, "We have no knowledge." Mirza Ji, whatever answer they give here, understand that the same is our answer as well. (2) Secondly, Mirza Ji himself admits that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) in heaven became aware of the deviation of his community, so he desired his likeness and his manifestation in the form of his attributes on earth. When Mirza Ji needed to become a Buruzi Messiah, he even admitted that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) in heaven became aware of the evils of his community. And when he deceives the Muslims, he pretends to feign ignorance? Whereas Allah Almighty would have informed him of everything even before his arrival, and no responsibility of the time of absence falls on him, nor is he a supervisor. Otherwise, they have not denied knowledge. كُنْتَ اَنْتَ الرَّقِیْبَ عَلَیْھِمْ By using Raqeeb in comparison to Shaheed, it has clearly stated that there is no question of knowledge here. The only point is that I did not say these wrong things, and as long as I was among them, I was the supervisor. After I was taken up, You Yourself were the supervisor. August 14, 1914 Verse Number 8 And indeed, he is a sign for the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path. Part Number 25 Section Number 11 Translation: And indeed, he (Jesus Christ) is a definite sign of the Hour (Day of Judgment), so have no doubt about it and obey me. This is the straight path. In this verse, it is clearly stated that the descent and second coming of Jesus Christ is a sign of the Day of Judgment, which we will mention soon, God willing. (1) After the clarifications of the verses of the Holy Quran, what doubt can remain that Jesus Christ or his descent is a sign of the Day of Judgment? (2) You will read the hadiths later on as well, but due to a special relevance here, we include another narration. It is narrated from Hazrat Abdullah Ibn Masood that "On the night when the Holy Prophet ascended to the heavens (Miraj), the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) met Hazrat Ibrahim (Abraham), Hazrat Musa (Moses), and Hazrat Isa (Jesus). The discussion of the Day of Judgment started, and Hazrat Ibrahim (peace be upon him) denied having knowledge of it. Similarly, Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him) also denied. When it was the turn of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him), he said that the knowledge of the occurrence of the Day of Judgment is with no one except God, and the promise that I have is that near the Day of Judgment, the Antichrist (Dajjal) will appear. I will descend and kill him." (Ibn Majah, Musnad Ahmad, Hakim, Ibn Jarir, and Al-Baihaqi, as referenced in Durr-e-Mansoor) (3) It is narrated from Hazrat Abdullah Ibn Abbas in Durr-e-Mansoor that he interprets "a sign for the Hour" as referring to the coming of Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ) before the Day of Judgment. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2545 (4) Imam Hafiz Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir and Imam Fakhruddin Razi, the Mujaddid of the sixth century, in Tafsir Kabir, Volume No., under this verse, attributed the pronoun of Allah to Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) and declared his descent as a sign of the nearness of the Day of Judgment. Verification from the Gospel In the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 24, the Gospel of Mark, chapter 13, and the Gospel of Luke, it is stated that "Many will come in my name, do not believe them." Jesus was asked what the sign of the end of the world is and when these things will happen, while he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, he said, "False prophets and false Messiahs will not mislead you, do not believe anyone. As lightning flashes from the east to the west, so will the Son of Man come with power and glory." The following results are derived from this: (1) He is instructing to avoid all his likenesses. (2) The coming of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) is a sign of the Day of Judgment. (3) Hazrat Masih (peace be upon him) will come suddenly (from the sky). (4) He will come with great power and glory. The same subject is also present in the Quran and Hadith. The Mirzais should believe in this and become Muslims. Verse No. 9 "And he will speak to the people in the cradle and in old age." - Al-ayah - This is actually the same first verse in which the birth of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) is mentioned. Here, the intention is to draw attention to the fact that Allah Almighty specifically mentions speaking in the time of "kahulat" (middle age). Then, on the Day of Judgment, among His favors, there is also the instruction to speak in the time of kahulat. 2546 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 31st, 1974 Whereas, talking in old age is not specific to Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) that it should be considered a favor upon him. This is available to all humans. The thing is, since the opportunity to talk in old age was not available because he was raised to the heavens. Therefore, when he comes again, he will talk to people in old age. These will be special and miraculous ways of talking. Confirmation from Mirza (Ghulam Ahmad) It is mentioned in a Hadith that when Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) comes again, he will also get married, as he was not married before. In this context, Mirza writes: Everyone gets married, and has children too. Rather, by marriage is meant that special marriage which will be as a sign." (Nasim-e-Anjam, Appendix p. 53) At this point, Mirza has made an impure attempt to involve the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) regarding his marriage with Muhammadi Begum. If the Holy Prophet had said thirteen hundred years ago that Mirza's marriage with Muhammadi Begum would take place, and the meaning of this saying was not revealed to him until his death, then how could he be a Prophet (God forbid). Similarly, those who say what is so special about talking in old age that Allah Almighty mentions it in the mention of birth and will also remind of the favor on the Day of Judgment. It is known that this old age is a miraculous old age, which is after the passing of two thousand years. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2547 The Decision of the Gospel Along with the decision of the Holy Quran, observe the decision of the Gospel as well. In Chapter Numbers 24, 25, 26, 27, as well as in Section 32/232 of the Gospel of Barnabas, which Mirza Ji has deemed highly credible in his book "Surma Chashm Arya," Barnabas, the disciple of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), has written in detail that: When the Jews, through their spy Judas Iscariot, sought to capture and crucify Jesus Christ, Allah transformed Judas's appearance and voice to resemble those of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was then raised to the heavens alive (with his physical body) through an opening in the roof by an angel. Judas, despite his cries, was mistaken by all for the Messiah, son of Mary, and was taken away with great humiliation, crucified, nailed, and after his death, his body was taken down. Barnabas says that he and all the close associates of Jesus Christ were also convinced that it was Jesus due to his voice and appearance. At that time, we went near the cross; the pain and sorrow were beyond description. Later, the true reality was revealed, but the Jews spread the rumor that they had killed him. The disciples had fled, and no one was present. Some Christians fabricated the belief that he was resurrected and raised alive to heaven after three days. The truth was concealed, and falsehood took its place. This statement of the Gospel of Barnabas is entirely in accordance with the Holy Quran. The Requirement of Reason and Wisdom When the Holy Quran was revealed for correction and it refuted the false beliefs of the Jews and Christians, then when the majority of Christians... VALORISTAN August 1, 1974 believed in being alive. So why did the Holy Quran endorse their false belief by saying "Rafe'oka" and "Bal Rafahullah Ilayhi"? The Holy Quran has explained this so clearly and explicitly that all the companions and the Mujaddidin and Muhaddithin of thirteen hundred years understood that he was raised alive to the heavens. If he had not actually been raised to the heavens with his living body, then first the Holy Quran would have clearly refuted it, otherwise, it would never have used such words that could have supported them. The Interpretation of the Prophet (peace be upon him) Who can understand the meanings of the Quran better than the Prophet? Now we will tell you the meanings explained by the Prophet. Hadith Number 1 Narrated by Abu Hurairah: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "By Him in Whose Hand is my life, Ibn Maryam will certainly descend among you as a just ruler. He will break the cross, kill the swine, and abolish the Jizya tax. Then money will be in such abundance that no one will accept it, until giving one prostration will be better than the world and what is in it. If you wish, then recite (the verse of the Quran): "And there is none from the People of the Book but that he will surely believe in him before his death." (Bukhari and Muslim) Translation: Hazrat Abu Hurairah narrates that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "By Him in Whose Hand is my life. Verily, Ibn Maryam will surely come among you as a just and fair ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pig, and abolish the Jizya. In his time, there will be so much wealth that no one will accept it. To the point that giving one prostration will be better than what is in it. If you wish, then read (this verse of the Quran): "And there is none from the People of the Book but that he will surely believe in him before his death." QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2549 In this instruction, Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH) has stated on oath, and according to Mirza Ji, the meaning of an oath is that there is no interpretation or exception in this statement, otherwise the oath becomes useless. So it is definitely proven that: (1) That the son of Mary who is to descend will be the real one (not Chiragh Bibi's). (2) He will be a ruler and a judge (Mirza Ji kept getting pushed around in English courts). (3) He will be just (Mirza Ji, in anger over Muhammadi Begum, divorced his own wife and disowned one of his sons and deprived him of inheritance, and had another divorce his wife). (4) He will break the cross (Mirza Ji neither broke the cross nor did the worship of the cross decrease). (5) He will kill the pig (so that people will hate it). (6) He will abolish Jizya (the whole world will become Muslim, then from whom will they take Jizya?). (7) He will give so much wealth that there will be no one to accept it (Mirza Ji got tired of appealing for donations sometimes for books, sometimes for guests, and sometimes for the Minaret-ul-Masih). (8) At that time, one prostration will be better than the whole world (after the arrival of Mirza Ji, there was a significant decrease in prayers and prostrations. Then the esteemed companion Hazrat Abu Hurairah says, if you want, then recite this verse). NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 31st, 1974 وان من اهل الكتاب الاليو منن به قبل موته Translation: And there will be none among the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death. According to the Quran, they declare the one who is to come as Jesus Christ and announce his life. The remaining thousands of companions were present. None of them refuted it. And the Hadith is also from Bukhari and Muslim Sharif. These words have determined the meaning of the verse and clarified the matter. The big thing is that in the Hadith, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has sworn an oath, and according to Mirza Ji's accepted principles, there can be no interpretation or exception in it, otherwise what is the benefit of the oath. Now you yourself can judge whether this noble Hadith refers to the descent of the son of Maryam (peace be upon her) or the son of Chiragh Bibi. And do the other things mentioned in the Hadith also apply to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani? Hadith Number 2 Abu Hurairah narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: The prophets are brothers from different mothers, but their religion is one. And I am the closest of all people to Jesus, the son of Mary, because there was no prophet between me and him, and he is descending, so when you see him, recognize him. A man of medium height, between brown and white complexion, wearing two slightly yellowish garments, his head dripping water even if it does not get wet. He will break the cross, kill the swine, abolish the Jizya, and invite people to Islam. Then, in his time, all religions will perish except Islam, and QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2331 Interest with camels, leopards with cows, wolves with sheep, and children playing with snakes, and they will not harm them, and he will remain for forty years, then die, and the Muslims will pray over him. (Narrated by Abu Dawood and Ahmad) Translation: Hazrat Abu Huraira narrated that you said that the prophets are paternal brothers. Their mothers are different and the religion is one, and I am the closest of all people to Jesus, son of Mary, because there is no prophet between me and him. And he will descend. So when you see him, recognize him, he will be of medium height, reddish-white complexion, wearing yellow clothes, water dripping from his head, even if he has not poured water on his head, he will break the cross and kill the pig and abandon the jizya and invite people to Islam. In his time, all religions will be destroyed except Islam. And lions with camels and cheetahs with cows and bulls, and wolves will roam with goats. And children will play with snakes, and they will not harm them. Then Jesus, son of Mary, will live for forty years and then die, and the Muslims will offer the funeral prayer for him. (We have quoted this narration from Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood's book Haqiqat-ul-Abood, Part 1, page 192, with his translation). The authenticity of this hadith is accepted by both sides. In this, the Prophet's statement is clear and explicit that I am the closest to Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). There has been no prophet between him and me. Mirzai Treachery Mirza Mahmood has interpreted the meaning of "Lam Yakun Bayni Wa Bainahu" to mean that there is no prophet between him and me, whereas the word "Lam Yakun" means that no prophet has been born. This is a statement of the past, which Khalifa Mahmood NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 31st August, 1974 hid it. Then the Prophet (PBUH) said that the same Isa Ibn Maryam will descend, so it is known that he was the one who was raised and he is alive in the sky because, according to Mirza Ji, descent is a branch of ascent. See Anjam Atham, p. 168. This holy hadith has also shattered the interpretations of the Mirzais. Second Treachery Mirza Mahmood Sahib committed another treachery by completely omitting the words "و يقاتل الناس عل الاسلام" from the hadith mentioned in Abu Dawood Sharif because Mirza Ji never fought, nor was he in favor of it. He only knew how to pray for the British. Hadith Number 3 From Abdullah Ibn Umar and Ibn al-Aas, who said that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said: Isa Ibn Maryam will descend to the earth, get married, and have children, and he will remain for forty-five years. Then he will die and be buried with me in my grave. A nation that I and Isa Ibn Maryam are in one grave between Abu Bakr and Umar. Hazrat Abdullah bin Amr bin Aas narrated that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said that Isa (AS) will descend to the earth and get married here. He will also have children. And on earth He will die after living for 45 years and will be buried with me in the Green Dome. (Tirmidhi and Mishkat) (Narrated by Ibn Jawzi) (Mishkat, Chapter on the Descent of Isa Ibn Maryam) Mirza Qadiani, after quoting this narration, attributed the part "فیتزوج ویولدلہ" to the good news of Muhammadi Begum's marriage to Mirza Ji and proved his "Fana Fi al-Rasool" from "یدفن معی فی قبری". Anyway, he has acknowledged the hadith to be authentic. This hadith has been narrated by Imam Ibn Jawzi, who is the accepted Mujaddid Mahdi Shasham of the Mirzais. So there can be no denial of the authenticity of the hadith. This proves that: (1) The words "to the earth" in the Hadith indicate that Hazrat Isa (AS) will descend to the earth, meaning he is not already on the earth. (2) Since Hazrat Isa (AS) had not married before, his marriage is also mentioned now. (3) And it has also been clarified that on the Day of Judgment, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) will be standing with Isa (AS) between Abu Bakr and Umar from the same tomb. Mirzai delusion Here, the Mirzais say, how will he be buried in the Prophet's grave? But Mirza himself wrote on page 47 of Nuzul-e-Asih that these (meaning Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar) were given the rank that they were buried so close to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as if it were a single grave. The same meaning has been expressed in Mirqat by the accepted Mujaddid of the Mirzais, Hazrat Mulla Ali Qari. (4) Along with this, also add the narration that Hazrat Aisha asked the Holy Prophet (PBUH) for permission to be buried next to him. He said, "There is no space there, there is only space for one grave where Isa (AS) will be buried. His grave will be the fourth." This narration has also put an end to all the interpretative nonsense of the Mirzais. Hadith Number 4 Allah Isa will descend among you, so when you see him, recognize him, for he is a man of medium height, inclined to redness and whiteness - then he will die and the Muslims will pray for him. (Narrated by Al-Hakim from Abu Huraira) This Hadith has been narrated by the Imam and Mujaddid of the fourth century of the Mirzais, so there can be no doubt about its authenticity. In this Hadith, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) mentioned Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) by his Quranic title, "Roohullah," meaning the Spirit of Allah. After mentioning all the details, it is stated that he will then pass away, and Muslims will offer the funeral prayer for him. Hadith Number 5 From Abi Hurairah, who said that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: "How will you be when the son of Maryam descends from the sky among you, and your Imam is from among yourselves?" Translation: Hazrat Abu Huraira narrates that the leader of the world, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: "What will be your condition (out of joy) when the son of Maryam descends from the sky among you, and your Imam (of prayer) will be from among yourselves?" It is narrated in traditions that Hazrat Mahdi (peace be upon him) will be ready to lead the prayer when Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will descend. He will ask him to lead the prayer, but he will refuse, saying that the iqama for this prayer has been made for you (you should lead). And in some narrations, it is said that Allah has given superiority to this Ummah. In any case, Hazrat Mahdi (peace be upon him) himself will lead the prayer. In this Hadith, the clear word "from the sky" is present, and it has been narrated by Imam Bayhaqi, the accepted Mujaddid of the fourth century of the Mirzais, so it is even more reliable. SADZIANI ISSUE-GENERAL VIALUSSION 2333 Hadith Number 6 Narrated by Ibn Abbas (in a lengthy hadith): The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "At that time, my brother, Jesus, the son of Mary, will descend from the sky upon Mount Afiq, as an Imam, a guide, a just ruler." (Kanz al-Umal) (1) In this hadith, the Leader of the Universe (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has silenced Mirza Qadiani by adding the word "from the sky." (2) By saying "my brother," Jesus (peace be upon him), who is a prophet, is indeed my brother (not a fabricated brother of the Prophet, the son of Chiragh Bibi). Mirza Ji copied this hadith in Hamamatul Bushra, page 88 (printed by Munshi Ghulam Qadir Sialkoti in 1311 AH), but he betrayed the text by omitting the word "from the sky." Hadith Number 7 Narrated by Abdullah bin Umar (in a lengthy hadith): The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "Then Allah will send Jesus, the son of Mary, as if he were Urwa bin Masood, and he will seek him out and destroy him." (Reported by Muslim with reference to Mishkat, Bab La Taqum As-sa'ah) The Leader of the Universe (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), as mentioned in Mishkat Sharif (Bab Bad Akhlaq) in the account of the Ascension, spoke of meeting Jesus (peace be upon him) in the heavens, saying: "Then the person I saw most resembling him was Urwa bin Masood." Translation: "The resemblance of Jesus was mostly to Urwa bin Masood." Now, you yourself say, the person resembling Urwa bin Masood whom he saw in the heavens. In Hadith Number 7, he mentions his descent and then compares him to Hazrat Urwa bin Masood. Giving instructions, He says that they will chase the Antichrist and destroy him. In this Hadith, you have also told the narrow-minded people that the one who is descending is the same Jesus, son of Mary, who resembles Hazrat Urwa bin Masood (RA), whom he had seen in the sky. Muslim... Hadith number 8 Narrated by Nawwas bin Sam'an (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: And likewise, when Allah sends the Messiah, son of Mary, he will descend near the White Minaret, east of Damascus, between two dyed garments, placing his hands on the wings of two angels. When he lowers his head, drops will fall, and when he raises it, beads like pearls will drip from it. No disbeliever can withstand the fragrance of his breath, and it will reach as far as his gaze extends. He will seek him until he finds him at the gate of Lod and kills him. (Muslim) Mirza has quoted this hadith on page 2/5/87 of Izala-e-Auham, Part 1. This hadith of Muslim Sharif has also disturbed the sleep of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Sometimes he says that it was a dream or a vision, whereas the words of this long hadith are: "If he emerges while I am among you, then I will argue with him." No sensible person can call it a dream or a vision. Sometimes he says that Imam Bukhari did not narrate it because he considered it weak. However, not quoting a hadith by Imam Bukhari is not a proof of weakness, otherwise the hadith... The hadith of lunar and solar eclipses, "In Lihadina Ayatain" and the hadith of Ibn Majah "La Mahdi Illa Isa" are not in Bukhari, on which Mirza has based his Messiahship. This hadith and all the hadiths about the descent of Christ mean the descent from the sky. He himself has written about this same hadith about Nawwas bin Sam'an on page 81 of Izala-e-Auham. The word that exists in the hadith of Sahih Muslim... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2557 It is said that when Hazrat Masih descends from the sky, his clothes will be yellow (magic is what speaks to the head). Hazrat Abu Huraira says that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: Hadith Number 9 By the One in Whose hand is my soul, the son of Mary will surely recite the Talbiyah for Hajj or for Umrah in the valley of Rauha, or he will do both. (Reported by Muslim in his Sahih) Translation: I swear by the One in whose hand is my soul. The son of Mary will surely raise his voice for Hajj or Umrah in the valley of Rauha, or with the intention of both. In this hadith, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has also sworn an oath, therefore, all The words of the hadith must be interpreted literally. Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) himself will perform Hajj (no one else will do it on his behalf), and Faj Rauha means the valley of Rauha. Descent means to descend downwards. Hadith Hadith Number 10 It is narrated from Hazrat Rabi'. He said that the Christians came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and started arguing. About Jesus, the son of Mary, they said, "God has a father," and they attributed to Allah falsehood and slander. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said to them, "Do you not know that every child resembles his father?" They said, "Yes." He said, "Do you not know that our Lord is Living and does not die, and that Jesus is subject to decay?" They said, "Yes." (Durr al-Manthur) Rabi' says that The Christians of Najran came to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and 2558 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 They started arguing about Hazrat Isa (A.S.) and said, "Who is the father of Hazrat Isa (A.S.)?" (Meaning that he is the son of God.) You (Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H.) asked, "Is there a resemblance of the father in the son or not?" They said, "Yes, there is." You said, "Then your Lord is alive and will never die, while Isa (A.S.) will surely face death." They said, "Why not?" If Isa (A.S.) had already passed away, then it was very easy for you to invalidate the divinity of Christ by saying that Maseeh (A.S.) had died, so how could he be God? This would have been a clearer proof of the negation of divinity or sonship, or you could have simply said that according to your belief, he has died, so how can he be God or the son of God? Even then, it would have been the best argument, but it was possible that some Mirzaite in the fourteenth century, with his shortsightedness, would have proven his death to be true. The Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) very clearly spoke the truth and only the truth, that God Almighty is eternal and never dies, and Hazrat Isa (A.S.) will face annihilation, meaning he used the future tense instead of the past tense. If Isa (A.S.) had passed away, then surely it would have been better in this discussion to say "ان عیسیٰ فدائی علیه الغناء" (Indeed, Isa died). Hadith Number 1 عن الحسن قال قال رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم لليهود ان عيسى لم يمت وأنه راجع اليكم قبل يوم القيامة (در منثور جلد دوم) (Narrated by Al-Hasan, who said that the Messenger of Allah (P.B.U.H.) said to the Jews that Isa (A.S.) did not die and that he will return to you before the Day of Judgment) (Dur-e-Manthoor, Volume 2). This narrator is Hazrat Hasan Basri, who is the crown of the saints, and being a Tabi'i (a follower of the companions of the Prophet), he says that the Messenger of Allah (P.B.U.H.) said, as if he certainly obtained the Hadith from a companion. Thus, the Mursal Hadith, which is attributed to the Prophet (P.B.U.H.) without the mediation of a companion. Hazrat Mulla Ali Qari said that it is an argument (Sharh Nukhbah). Hazrat Mulla Ali Qari was the Mujaddid (reformer) of the tenth century. Who can reject his saying? QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2559 can do. In any case, this hadith has clarified that "Lam Yamut," meaning that Hazrat Isa (A.S.) has not died, but he will return to the world again. The word is also "Lam Yamut" and "Raja'a" as well, that: Hadith No. 12: It is narrated from Hazrat Abdullah bin Masood in Ibn Majah and Musnad Imam Ahmad: "When the night of Ascension came for the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), he met Ibrahim (peace be upon him), Musa (peace be upon him), and Isa (peace be upon him), and they discussed the Hour. They started with Ibrahim and asked him about it, but he had no knowledge of it. Then they asked Musa, but he had no knowledge. Then he narrated the hadith to Isa bin Maryam, who said, 'A covenant has been made with me regarding what is before its appointed time, but no one knows its appointed time except Allah.' Then he mentioned the emergence of the Dajjal and said, 'Then I will descend and kill him (until the end).'" (Ibn Majah, Chapter on the Trials of the Dajjal and the Emergence of Isa bin Maryam) Hazrat Abdullah bin Masood, a companion, says that on the night of Miraj, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) met Hazrat Ibrahim (peace be upon him), Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him), and Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). Then they started discussing the Day of Judgment, and Hazrat Ibrahim (peace be upon him) was asked about it. He expressed his ignorance. Similarly, Hazrat Musa (peace be upon him) gave the same answer. Finally, Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) replied that a promise had been made to me about the nearness of the Day of Judgment. No one knows its exact time except God Almighty. Then he mentioned the Dajjal and said that I would descend and kill the Dajjal (until the end). This hadith has been narrated by Imam Ahmad as Marfu', as if all these words are of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) himself. Imam Ahmad is the Muslim Mujaddid of the second century AH, so there is no point in discussing the authenticity of the hadith. 2560 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 31st, 1974 ...cannot be, as is written in the principles of interpretation. This Hadith proves that Dajjal is the name of a person, not the name of a group of priests as Mirza has said. This Hadith also proves that the same Jesus (peace be upon him) who is in the sky will descend and kill the Dajjal. Killing Dajjal also negated killing with arguments, etc., just like the Mirzais' nonsense. Did Mirza Qadiani mention his descent on the night of Miraj? Did this same Mirza Qadiani descend from the sky? Did he kill the Dajjal? Hadith Number 13 Narrated Jabir: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said... "...then Jesus, son of Mary, will descend, and their leader will say, 'Come, lead us in prayer.' But he will say, 'No, some of you are leaders over others as a favor from Allah to this nation.'" (Mishkat, Chapter on the Descent of Jesus) Mirza Ji proves with "....and your Imam will be from among you" that he will lead the prayers. He will be from the Ummah of Muhammad. However, this is completely wrong. If we take the meaning of "....and your king will be from among you" according to Mirza Ji's statement, then it would be an explanatory apposition, for which "wa" is not brought, which is present here. This is tantamount to slaughtering Arabic grammar. The aforementioned Hadith has made it clear that the leader of the people (i.e., Mahdi, peace be upon him) will say, "Come forward and lead the prayer." He will refuse, saying that Allah has given superiority to some over others in this Ummah. Now, if the Mirzais want faith, then instead of Mirza's meanings, they should accept the meanings stated by the Leader of the Worlds (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). THE QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DELUSION Saying of Hazrat Abdullah bin Abbas AND Oath of Hazrat Hassan Basri In Fathul Bari, printed in Delhi (Part 22, Page 281), it is stated that Imam Ibn Jarir has quoted Hazrat Ibn Abbas with a correct chain of narration from Saeed bin Jubair that Hazrat Ibn Abbas has affirmed that in " يؤمن به قبل موتہ " (Yumin bihi qabla mautihi) both pronouns refer to Hazrat Isa (A.S.). All the People of the Book will believe in Hazrat Isa (A.S.) before his death. And on the same page of this book, it is narrated from Hazrat Hassan Basri, who is the crown of the saints, that he also interpreted "قبل موتہ" (qabla mautihi) as "before the death of Isa." Then he swore and said: "والله انه الأن لحى ولكن اذا نزل آمنوابه اجمعين" "By God, Isa (A.S.) is alive at this time. When he descends, all will believe in him." Up to this point, you have learned the interpretation from the hadiths, which was not denied by even one companion. Signs of the descent of the Messiah, son of Mary (peace be upon him) The Greatest Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not speak unnecessarily; whatever he said it was concise but comprehensive and clarifying all matters. Regarding the descent of Hazrat Isa Ibn Maryam (peace be upon him), the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) emphasized the signs so much that it is difficult to surpass, so that no ignorant person makes a false claim of Christianity and misleads the Ummah. - 4/ULANISTAN August 31st, 1974 You stated: (1) The Messiah will descend in the last era. (Mirza Qadiani wrote that descent is a branch of ascent. When descent is proven through continuous testimony, then ascent and ascension are automatically proven). (2) To shut the mouths of those who make absurd objections, you also used the word "return" (Rabi'a Ilaikum) meaning that he will come back to you. (3) To remove all doubts, you also stated that he will descend from the sky. (4) Explaining further, you stated that he will come to the earth, and only he comes to the earth who was not on earth before. (5) You said that the one who is coming will be named Isa (Jesus). (6) Elsewhere you called him Messiah. (7) His mother's name will be Maryam (it would not be appropriate to light the lamp). (8) By repeatedly mentioning the mother's name, it was made clear that he will not be the son of any male sage Ghulam Murtaza, but the same daughter who was born without a father, and the Quran called him by his mother's name only. (9) He will descend in the last era. (10) He was a messenger to the Children of Israel. He was the Word of Allah. He was the Spirit of Allah. He was distinguished in this world and the hereafter. He was born from the breath of Gabriel. He was given mighty miracles. When the Children of Israel still did not believe, he will come and fight against the Children of Israel and their Dajjal (Antichrist). QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2563 (10) He will kill the Dajjal, and all the People of the Book will become Muslims. Islam will spread throughout the world, and all the things worthy of them will happen that had not happened before. (11) The migration of others was from one country to another; the migration of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) was from the entire earth. That is why he will return to earth and establish a just system throughout the earth. (12) He will descend in Damascus. (13) Towards the east of Damascus, near the minaret. (14) He will be wearing two yellow sheets. (15) Water will drip from his head like pearls. (16) He will descend with his hands on the shoulders of angels. (17) At that time, the iqama for the morning prayer will have been called. (18) At that time, he will first ask the Imam to lead the prayer. (19) After finishing, he will fight the Dajjal and kill him. (20) The Jews will be utterly defeated. (21) If a Jew is hiding behind a tree or stone, it will also inform the Muslims so that he can be killed. (22) Then all the remaining Jews and Christians will become Muslims. Islam will spread throughout the world. (23) Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will stop the war because the whole world will have become subject to Islam. 2564 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 131st August, 1974 (24) They will stop collecting Jizya (tax) from non-Muslims. For two reasons, firstly, there will be no non-Muslims left, and secondly, there will be a severe abundance of wealth. (25) Wealth will be given to people in abundance, to the point that there will be no one to accept it. (26) At that time, one prostration will be better than the whole world. (27) The one who descends will be the same Jesus (peace be upon him) who had conversations about the Day of Judgment in the heavens, and he had said that he would descend and kill the Antichrist (Dajjal). (28) He will surely die, but annihilation has not yet come upon him. (29) He will live in the world for forty years. (30) He will perform Hajj. (31) He will say "Labbaik" from the valley of Rauha. (32) He was not married before, now he will get married. (33) He was a prophet of the past and of his time, and now he will act upon and enforce the Sharia of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). (34) When he passes away, Muslims will perform his funeral prayer. (35) He will be buried in the sacred chamber of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). (36) When he descends, he will carry a weapon and kill the Antichrist (Dajjal). (37) In his time, there will be so much justice that a lion and a goat will drink water from the same riverbank. (38) He will be the same Jesus (peace be upon him) who was there a few centuries before the Prophet, and there was no prophet between him and the Prophet. ALI (A.S.) (39) He will be the one who will also be named Ruhullah. (40) Before him, there will be a righteous man who will lead the prayers. He will be the Mahdi. (41) He will be from the Ahl al-Bayt. (42) His name will be the same as the Prophet's name. And his father's name will be like the Prophet's father's name. (43) The Dajjal whom he will kill will be one-eyed. K.F.D. will be written on his forehead, meaning Kafir (disbeliever). (44) He will also show various kinds of wonders. Which will reveal people's disbelief and the strength of their faith. (45) He will travel all over the world. But on that day, Medina Munawara and Mecca Muazzama will be guarded by angels, and he will not be able to enter these two cities. (46) This Isa (A.S.) will chase the Dajjal and kill him at the gate of Lud. (47) In his time, Gog and Magog will emerge. People will be very troubled. Finally, Hazrat Isa (A.S.) will curse them, and they will fight and die. (48) Isa (A.S.) will descend in Damascus where there will be a hill named Afiq. (49) Knowing of his arrival, Muslims will be overjoyed. Which the Prophet (PBUH) has indicated with "Kaifa Antum." (50) He will present Islam at the Radiant Tomb. The Prophet (PBUH) will answer him. (51) You swore an oath and gave the news of the descent of Hazrat Isa, son of Mary. (52) His descent will be a (major) sign of the Day of Judgment. (53) He will be a ruler (judge). (54) He will be just and equitable. (55) Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will be like Hazrat Urwa bin Masood. (56) His color will be inclined towards white and red. (57) He will break the cross which was worshiped or which was a symbol of the priests. (58) He will kill the pig. It is impure, and Christians consider it like mother's milk and eat it; this will be done to create hatred. Even today, they damage the crops, so people gather and arrange for their killing. (59) At that time, Dajjal will have an army of seventy thousand Jews with him. (20) Due to the mutual fighting and death of Gog and Magog, there will be a stench. First, Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) will take the Muslims up the mountain. Then he will pray. It will rain. That stench will be removed (or as he said). Has a personality like the Leader of the Worlds (peace and blessings be upon him) shown so much concern for any other matter? The purpose is that no one else should claim to be the Dajjal, the Messiah, the son of Mary. Now, if a fool says that by Isa is meant Ghulam Ahmad, and by Mary is meant Chiragh Bibi. Damascus means Qadiani. Bab-e-Ludd means Ludhiana. Qatal (Killing) means to be victorious in debate. Maseeh (Messiah) means the likeness of the Messiah. Yellow sheets mean my two illnesses. Dajjal means priests. Khurd Jaal means the train, which he himself rode. Mahdi also means Ghulam Ahmed. Haris also means Ghulam Ahmed. Rajul-e-Faris also means Ghulam Ahmed. Minara (minaret) means the minaret of Qadian, which was later built by Mirza Ji. Nuzool (Descent) means to travel and disembark somewhere. Aasman (Sky/Heaven) means heavenly guidance. Isa Ibn-e-Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary) means Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani. Ghulam Ahmed is united with Isa (Jesus). Ghulam Ahmed is Muhammad himself. Ghulam Ahmed is the coming Krishna Avatar. Ghulam Ahmed is the second coming of the Holy Prophet (Hazoor). The global dominance of Islam that occurred during the time of Ghulam Ahmed did not occur during the time of the Holy Prophet (Hazoor). The prayer that is made in prayers (Ghair-il-Maghdubi Alaihim) is a prayer for separation from those who cause pain to Mirza Qadiani. CH HAVING ANNENDLI UF PAKISTAN August 31st, 1974 My revelation is equal to the Quran. All the perfections of the prophets are gathered in me. I am definitely superior to Hazrat Hussain. What are they? I am superior to Hazrat Isa (Jesus Christ). Even being his manifestation and likeness, I have surpassed him. Rather, my miracles are greater than all the prophets, and I am not less than any prophet in knowledge. Then he tells his son, "It is as if God has descended from the sky." And that son starts saying, "Everyone can progress, even to the point of surpassing the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him." And according to his disciple Akmal's poems, he is superior to the Prophet (God forbid): Muhammad has descended again among us And is greater in his glory than before Whoever wants to see Muhammad, Akmal, Should look at Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian Then Mirza Sahib listens to these poems, applauds, and says "Jazakallah" (May God reward you). Now you decide for yourselves how this person and those who consider him a Muslim can remain Muslim. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION MISCELLANEOUS 2569 2570 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 131st, 1974 Self-planted sapling Mirzai representative (Imam of the Mirza'i community) Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib said regarding the self-planted sapling that it refers to the family. Attorney General Sahib presented the written list of members that Mirza Ji wrote there, as if Mirza Ji is calling this sect a self-planted sapling. We say, let's assume Mirza Ji's family is the self-planted sapling of the British, then Mirza Ji is a branch of that English sapling. If that sapling is impure, how can the branches of the sapling be pure? Completion of Argument Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, instead of calling ordinary Muslims major infidels, has declared them minor infidels, and the reason he gave is that the argument has not been completed upon them. Because, according to Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib, for the completion of the argument, it is necessary that the other person's heart accepts that the matter is true and then denies it. So, the seventy crore Muslims of the world consider Mirza Ji to be a liar and a fabricator. The argument has not been completed upon them. Therefore, they are not excluded from the Muslim community, i.e., not major infidels. But the self-planted sapling had learned great caution. First, in Izala-e-Auham, page 964, he wrote that he is a likeness of the Promised Messiah. People of little understanding took him to be the real Promised Messiah, then later he himself became the Promised Messiah with great fervor, and when he saw that he could not succeed in front of the scholars, he took refuge in Fana-fi- রাসূল and claimed to be the exact Muhammad. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2571 A Powerful and Unanswerable Challenge We challenge the entire Mirza'iyah community to prove from the words of any *mujaddid* (reformer), *muhaddith* (scholar of hadith), *sahabi* (companion of the Prophet), or *wali* (saint) of the past thirteen hundred years that Jesus (peace be upon him) has died. Or that by the Messiah, son of Mary, or Jesus, son of Mary, what is meant is a likeness of him. That Jesus himself (peace be upon him) will not come. Or that by him is meant Ghulam Ahmad ibn Chiragh Bibi. If you are truthful, then present the saying of any *muhaddith* or *mujaddid* of the past thirteen hundred years. A Second Challenge Prove regarding any period within the past thirteen hundred years that someone claimed prophethood and the Muslims tolerated it despite having the power to stop it. Or that someone inquired from a claimant to prophethood whether his claim was to legislative prophethood, non-legislative, metaphorical and shadowy, or independent prophethood. In that case, you become doubly *kafir* (disbeliever). Another Pretense Mirza and the Mirza'is have created this pretense throughout the world that prophethood has ceased, or that prophets can come. Whereas, in their own belief, no prophet came before Mirza Qadiani, nor will any come after him until the Day of Judgment. So this whole discussion is only to confuse the *Ummah* (Muslim community). Rather, discuss whether Mirza Qadiani can become Jesus (peace be upon him) or whether the one coming is the same one whom all the *muhaddithin*, *sahib-e-karamat* (people of miracles), and *mujaddidin* of the past thirteen hundred years have declared to be the Messiah, son of Mary, that he himself will come. Mirza Ji's Anxiety In this matter, the extent of Mirza Ji's anxiety is such that he declared the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah to be well-known, famous, and *mutawatir* (mass transmitted), and on page 128 of Izala-e-Auham, he clearly wrote that it is of the first degree... 2572 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 It is a prophecy and has the highest degree of continuity, but he wrote that God hid the meanings of the Quran from people (Aina Kamalat pg 326), until Mirza Ji was appointed as a reformer and it was not revealed to him for ten years. And he also wrote that the belief in the life of Jesus is a great polytheism. And to escape from it, he declared the old saints and companions to be excused because they made an error of judgement. Then sometimes he said that the first consensus was on the death of Jesus, so how did the matter remain hidden from the Muslims? Sometimes he remained a polytheist himself by calling it the polytheism of reverence. And sometimes, for his own need, he claimed Quranic knowledge after thirteen hundred years and became the Messiah, son of Mary himself. If something is a great polytheism, by believing in which a person becomes the greatest polytheist, can God hide such a Quranic issue from the people? Then what is the benefit of the revelation of the Quran? Third challenge Is it possible that God Almighty hides some meanings of the Quran from the early centuries and the reformers, saints and scholars of centuries remain steadfast on polytheistic meanings, even Mirza Qadiani, being a reformer, continued to believe that Jesus Christ was alive in the sky for ten years? And can great polytheism be tolerated because of Ijtihad? Didn't the Holy Quran itself say, "Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." (Surah Al-Hijr, 15:9). Does the protection mean that God himself hides its meanings from the eyes of the best people for centuries? Whereas Mirza himself also said that the Holy Quran is a reminder, and the rememberers will remain till the Day of Judgement. Its meaning will remain in the hearts. Protecting its purposes and meanings is the real task. (Shahadat-ul-Quran pg 54/55) QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2573 Fourth Challenge Has any prophet ever flattered, prayed for, or served a disbelieving government as much as Mirza Sahib did for the British government? Fifth Challenge If a prophet was to come, whose denial would render the entire Ummah infidel, wasn't it necessary for the Leader of the World, peace and blessings be upon him, to have said something to save the seventy crore people of the Ummah from infidelity, along with the other news he gave about the future? By saying "There is no prophet after me," mentioning the ascension of Jesus (peace be upon him), and giving continuous news of the descent and return of the son of Mary, did he not himself, God forbid, prescribe the means of infidelity for the Ummah? Mirza Nasir Sahib, by insisting on sincere acceptance with conclusive proof, has done the work of an inventor. Mirza himself says: "And God has completed His proof, now whether someone accepts or not." (Supplement to Haqiqatul Wahi, page 136) See, in this statement, Mirza Sahib has not insisted on denying with a sincere understanding with conclusive proof. It is evident from this that whether the other person believes or not, understands or not, once the matter has been presented to him with proof, and the invitation to truth has reached him, then the proof has been completed upon him, whether he believes or not. If it is not done this way, then why are most of the disbelievers of the world, who do not consider the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as a prophet, considered greater disbelievers because of their denial? Mirza Nasir Ahmad has said that God will punish in the hereafter for denying Mirza Qadiani. In this world, they are counted among the Muslims, and they will be treated in the same way as Muslims in national and political matters. In this way, they cover up their excommunication. But they should know that God knows what is in the heart. Here, the judge and the court will also decide on the apparent. If Mirza is a prophet, then denying him is disbelief, and then no one who does not consider Mirza to be a disbeliever can remain a Muslim. And if prophethood is over, then Mirza and his followers are all definitely disbelievers. Listen in another way, it is in the Holy Quran: "We never punish until We have sent a messenger." Translation: That We do not punish until We have sent a messenger. Here, there is only mention of sending a messenger, not of denying him after truly believing in him. And after sending a messenger, the denier of the messenger is not only given punishment in the hereafter, but he is not even considered a Muslim. Then the Quran has only stated this so that people may not say that "No warner came to us." There is no mention of understanding or not understanding in this. This is only Mirza's invention. Yes, there are some disbelievers who deny even after truly believing in their hearts, but there are others as well. A New Pretense to Hide Excommunication Mirza and his followers called the common Muslims disbelievers, but they hid their excommunication in a strange way, saying that since others called me a disbeliever, and calling a Muslim a disbeliever makes them a disbeliever themselves. Or, they denied the Messiah as described in the Quran and Hadith, so they themselves became disbelievers. Wow, Mr. Mirza Sahib, wow! If you were to become God, would people embrace you or call you an absolute infidel? Then you would say, "What can I do? These people themselves have become infidels by calling me an infidel." If you become a prophet and insult the prophets, Muslims will be forced to call you an infidel. So, this excuse is enough for you that these people will become infidels by calling me an infidel. And to be honest, you become a double infidel. Firstly, because of false claims, and secondly, by causing Muslims to become infidels according to your logic. Sixth challenge: If the incident of murder took place in Syria and the witness is said to be from Ludhiana, will that witness not be rejected? If the claim is against Zaid bin Umar, can Khalid bin Salim be arrested in his place? If the incident is in Lahore and we interpret Lahore to mean Rawalpindi through interpretations, can the world's affairs be conducted in this way? If the marriage is of Ahmad Khan, resident of Haripur, and Ghulam Ahmad, resident of Karachi, comes to the woman and threatens her, saying that Ahmad Khan means Ghulam Ahmad Khan and Haripur means Karachi. If such things are accepted, will the world order not be disrupted? Has Mirza Mahmood, the son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and the second Caliph of the Mirzais, not written in Hiqatul Nabuwwa, published in 1925, Qadian, Part 1, page 188, that in the Quranic verse "And giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name will be Ahmad," Mirza Qadiani himself has been called the messenger? And in this way, would he not become the embodiment of Ahmad as well? Is this not playing with and mocking the Holy Quran? MARITAN August 1st, 1974 Seventh Challenge Weren't these verses recited in front of Mirza Qadiani and didn't he appreciate them?! (Akhbar Al-Badr Qadian, October 25, 1906) and (Al-Fazl Qadian, August 22, 1944) Muhammad has descended again Among us Is greater in his glory And Further Whoever wants to see Muhammad Perfected Should look at Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian Mr. Chairman: These have been read three times. Do not read them again. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: I didn't understand. Mr. Chairman: You have read these verses three times. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: It is printed in the book, so it has to be read. In response, Mirza Nasir Ahmad said that the verse following these is the answer to it. The verse is: O Ghulam Ahmad, by being chosen You have attained this status in the world Well done, become superior to Jesus Christ by saying 'Ghulam, Ghulam', increase your glory over the Prophet, Become a Ghulam and declare the 700 million followers of the Prophet as infidels, a good prescription. Mr. Mirza Nasir Ahmad, these First he was great. Verses occurred and then after that (when the newspapers were presented) this. evaded the answer. Can Mirza Nasir Sahib deny this fact that he has acknowledged two comings of the Prophet and has declared the second coming to be more perfect than the first? QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2577 Eighth Challenge The Mirza'i sect and Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib have tried to deceive Muslims in the name of Sheikh Akbar, claiming that he considered non-Shariaic prophethood to be continuing. Our claim is that what Sheikh Akbar and some other saints have said about Shariaic prophethood ending is only regarding conversations and glad tidings (dreams) and sainthood. Prophetic, independent, with a book, like Prophet Moses (peace be upon him), and non-Shariaic prophets, like the other prophets of the Children of Israel, is not at all related to their words. They call both of these Shariaic prophethood, in which someone is called a prophet or claims prophethood. They know that the position of prophethood is not attained through sainthood, ability, or spiritual evolution; it is a gift from God. Otherwise, in thirteen hundred years, no companion, Mujaddid, Muhaddith, or saint would have claimed prophethood or become a prophet? Secondly, they had in mind the coming of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), so that no one would become an infidel by denying his life and second coming. That is why they kept writing that when he comes, he will neither act on his old Sharia nor bring any new Sharia, but will act on and enforce the Sharia of Muhammad. This is the purpose of Sheikh Akbar, and this is the purpose of Mulla Ali Qari and other gentlemen. The words of Hazrat Sheikh Akbar Imam Ibn Arabi Sheikh Akbar said in the context of the Hadith of Miraj: Translation: When the Leader of the Worlds (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) enters the second heaven, there Jesus (peace be upon him) will be present with his body and soul. Because he is still 2370 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 did not die. Rather, Allah Almighty raised him to the heavens and gave him residence there. (Futuhat Makkiya, Volume No. 3, Page 341) Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Let us pray. Mr. Chairman: I would like to say that you continue reading. There is only a little bit left. A few things may remain. There are references to the courts, they can remain. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: They still understand enough. Mr. Chairman: It is a matter of five minutes, finish it. Maulana started reading and then during that time. Maulana Abdul Hakeem Sahib, let us pray. Mr. Chairman: Ahead are references to the courts, they have already come, there is no need to read them. Maulana Abdul Hakeem Sahib! You have tea, we will pray. And then the thing is, they will do propaganda. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Sahib! I request you to finish it. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Urdu translation of the second passage 2. And this is the meaning of the Holy Prophet's (PBUH) saying that the prophethood has ended, and after me, no one will come, no messenger who will enact a Sharia against my Sharia. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2579 (It is written after that) Because there is no disagreement in this matter (It is a unanimous belief that Jesus (peace be upon him) is a prophet and messenger, and it is also the unanimous belief of the Ummah that he will descend in the last era. He will act and make others act on our Muhammadan Sharia with great justice and fairness. He will not act on any other Sharia or his previous Sharia. (Futuhat Makkiyah, Volume 2, page 3) Mirza Mahmud wrote in his book (Haqiqat-ul-Mahdi, page 248, second edition, Qadian) that Ibn Arabi wrote about the Messiah, then while quoting his statement, he wrote that the Messiah will have two resurrections on the Day of Judgment. One with the messengers as messengers and one with us as a Wali who will be a follower of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). In this lengthy statement, Sheikh Akbar mentions the story of the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) and then his separate flag on the Day of Judgment and the general flag of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) under which all the prophets will be, then the special flag of the Prophet under which the Ummah and the saints of the Ummah will be. Now he says that he will also be resurrected under the flag of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in which he will be the leader of all the saints of the Ummah. And he will also have his own separate flag under which his followers will be. Where is Mirza mentioned here, but Mirza Mahmud has committed dishonesty by adding the word Messiah in the translation. Statements of Hazrat Mulla Ali Qari Mujaddid of Islam Imam Mulla Ali Qari writes in Mirqat, page 187. 4300 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Ruvi Ans Marfooan Yanzilu Issa Ibne Maryam Hazrat Anas has narrated a tradition with reference Alal Minaratil Baiza'a Sharqi Damishq that Isa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him) will descend on the eastern minaret of Damascus. (2) And on page 160, it is written in Mirqat: Fayanzilu Isa ibn Maryam minas samaa ala Then Isa, the son of Mary, will descend from the sky Minarati Masjid Damishq Hayati al-Quds onto the foundation of the mosque of Damascus, then he will go to Quds. (3) On page 221 of Mirqat, it is written that Hazrat Abu Huraira narrates the tradition of a companion and says: Allama Tayyibi has stated that: The noble verse "And there is none from the People of the Book but that he will surely believe in him before his death" is used as evidence for the descent of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) in the last era. (4) Isa (peace be upon him) will descend on the earth. There are many more statements which are being omitted for the sake of brevity. Will the Mirzais claim that any of these elders have permitted the claim of prophethood or partial prophethood, or have accepted any claimant? Rather, before them, only Hazrat Masih ibn Maryam (peace be upon him) Ninth Challenge Can any Mirzai present a saying of any saint, Sheikh Akbar, Imam Rabbani, Mujaddid Alf Thani, Shah Waliullah Dehlavi, Imam Razi or any Mujaddid and Muhaddith that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) has passed away and that the last era QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2581 He who is to come will not be that one. Rather, he will come as some Mental or other claimant. And he will change the meanings of all the words used in the Sharia. If any Mirzaite possesses an iota of truth, then let him show the belief or saying of any one of the Mujaddids of the thirteen centuries that Naini (Jesus) peace be upon him has died and now someone else will come in his place. If not, then repent. Save yourself from hell. You and your Mirza Qadiani do not have more knowledge than the Mujaddids, Muhaddithin, scholars, and saints of the thirteen centuries, nor do you know the Sharia more. So if this is the claim, this is the claim that Satan made and was destroyed, who said, "I am better than him." I am better than Adam (peace be upon him). Court decisions against Mirza Sahib Nowadays, courts are trusted and to a large extent, they also investigate. Mirzaites resort to these courts very quickly, now listen to the decisions of these courts. A decision The decision of the District Judge Bahawalnagar (Bahawalpur) in which the elders of Muslims and Mirzais had put all their efforts. The decision written by the court is historic and a great achievement of the State of Bahawalpur, if anyone is fair-minded, they should learn a lesson from this decision. In this decision, the Honorable Judge not only mentioned Mirza Ji's claim of prophethood but also his claim of revelation which is equal to the Quran, his blasphemy of the Prophets, peace be upon them, etc. 228 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 131st August, 1974 has written blasphemies, and the truth is that he has done the best research, and it contains testimonies from personalities like Hazrat Allama Muhammad Anwar Shah, the head teacher of Darul Uloom Deoband. Top Qadiani clerics were also involved. This case took place in February 1935, corresponding to 3rd Dhu al-Qa'dah, 1353 AH. Second Decision The second decision is by District Judge of Kialpur District, Sheikh Muhammad Akbar Sahib, which took place on June 3, 1955, in Rawalpindi. In it, the disbelief of all Mirzais was confirmed. Third Decision Sheikh Muhammad Rafiq Sahib, Governor Judge Civil and Family Court, Jacobabad (Sindh), also declared the marriage of a Muslim woman to a Mirzai as illegal and declared the Mirzai as non-Muslim. Fourth Decision Mr. Khosla's decision, which was about the case against Hazrat Amir Shariat Syed Ataullah Shah Sahib Bukhari, and the court had sentenced Hazrat Shah Sahib for contempt of court. In that speech, Hazrat Shah Sahib had called the Mirzais the "dump of British." And there were many other things. In this decision, the court wrote that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani used to order "tonic wine" (alcohol) from a plumber's shop in Lahore, and Mirza Ji's son, Mirza Mahmood, admitted that Mirza Ji had once drunk alcohol due to some illness. In any case, the details of Mirza Ji's diet were also presented in this case, which included invigorating things like rubies and expensive foods. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2583 A Question to the Mirzais But why didn't the Mirzais appeal the previous cases? Why did they remain silent and confirm the seal of disbelief upon themselves? They knew that if the High Court also upheld the decision of the subordinate court, it would become law. Then there would be no way to escape. Fatwas Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has mentioned the fatwas issued by all sects and scholars against him. To add to his knowledge, we say that scholars from Calcutta to Deoband and Arab countries have also issued fatwas of disbelief against the Mirzais, and these are not fatwas of today, but fatwas from the time of the British. And they are old. In any case, there is no doubt that those who consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be a prophet or a reformer or a Muslim are confirming his blasphemies, therefore they are definitely disbelievers. This is the decision that was made in the recent past by the representatives of Mecca and the entire Islamic world gathered together. Allama Iqbal (late) and the Mirzais The Mirzais have also presented the names of many famous people in their favor and have very brazenly taken the esteemed name of Allama Iqbal (late), but the Muslim nation is no longer deceived by any name. Until someone knows Mirza Ji's beliefs, Mirzai thoughts, presenting their writings is deceit and fraud. Does the world not know that Allama Muhammad Iqbal (late) had expelled the Mirzais from Anjuman Himayat-ul-Islam Lahore? Are they not aware of the following views of the late Allama? 1304 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Qadianism is an imitation of Judaism. (Mirzait) is like a return to Judaism. The Qadiani group is an enemy of Islamic unity. In the eyes of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Muslim community is like rotten milk. Mirzait is intrinsically fatal to the spirit and aims of Islam. The terms "reincarnation of the Messiah" are un-Islamic. Prophethood In Sharia, after the seal of prophethood, a claimant of prophethood is a liar and deserving of death. Personally, I became disgusted with this movement when a new prophethood was claimed to be higher than the prophethood of the founder of Islam, and all Muslims were declared infidels. Later, this disgust reached the level of rebellion when I heard a member of the (Mirzait) movement with my own ears uttering indecent words about the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). (Verily we belong to Allah, and to Him shall we return). Muslims are justified in demanding that Qadianis be declared a minority. Advice to the Government The late Allama Muhammad Iqbal advised the government to recognize the Qadianis as a separate group. (All these references are taken only from Iqbal's collection, compiled by Latif Akbar Sahib Sherwani M.A.). Now you can assess the claims of Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib yourself.) Some other gentlemen are also in the same condition, and when the lies of Mirza Qadiani are proven, why should we not attribute his followers to falsehood? QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2585 They falsely attributed to various eminent figures of the Ummah that they were also in favor of the survival of non-legislative prophethood, of which we have exposed the falsehood and clarified their true meaning by presenting the statements of "Sheikh Akbar" and Allama Mulla Ali Qari. Finally, we draw the attention of the esteemed members of the National Assembly to this bill that we have presented to the Rehbar Committee of the National Assembly of Pakistan. Annexure Number 1 Text of the Bill Whereas: (1) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has claimed prophethood and has written that he has attained this status by following the Leader of the World, peace and blessings be upon him, and revelation has given me the clear title of prophet (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi). (2) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has become the promised Messiah and has therefore denied the life of Christ. Whereas until writing Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, his belief was that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) is alive in the heavens (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi). (3) Mirza Qadiani has denied the physical ascension (Meraj) of the Leader of the World, peace and blessings be upon him, whereas the Quran, Hadith, and the Ummah have decided that he was ascended while awake with his blessed body. (4) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has denied Jihad and has made obedience to the British obligatory, his own verse is: NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 31, 1974 2580 Now let go of the thought of Jihad, O friends! War and strife are now forbidden for the sake of religion. (5) Mirza Qadiani, while claiming divine revelation and dialogues, has called his revelation like the Holy Quran. آنچه من بشنوم خدا زوجی بخدا پاک دانش زخطا همچو قرآن شنری اش دانم ہمیت ایمانم از خطا ہا What I hear is God, my spouse is God. Pure knowledge is free from error, like the Quran, I know its essence, my faith is free from errors. And in this regard, he has lied and slandered Imam Rabbani Mujaddid Alf Thani, saying that when divine dialogues become frequent, that person is called a prophet. Whereas he has written Muhaddith, not a prophet at all. (6) Mirza Qadiani has declared himself superior to Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). Leave the mention of Ibn Maryam, Ghulam Ahmad is better than him. A messenger that according to the prophecy, I have come. Where is Jesus, so that I may show my feet to him. (7) Mirza Qadiani has written that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was a drunkard (Kashti Noah) and has also insulted the prophets. His verses are: انبیاء گرچه بوده اندیے من به عرفان نه کمترم زکی آنکه دادست ہر نبی را جام داد آن جام را مرا به تمام Although the prophets have been many, In wisdom, I am no less than anyone. He who gave every prophet a cup, Gave that cup to me in full. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2587 (8) Mirza Qadiani has denied the eternal stay of a disbeliever in hell and has stated their eventual exit from it, which is absolutely against the texts of the Holy Quran, and since all these are acts of disbelief, a person exits Islam by saying and believing in them. (9) Mirza Qadiani has called all Muslims who do not believe in him as the Promised Messiah as disbelievers, just like those who deny the Quran and Hadith. (10) And has forbidden marrying common Muslims and offering funeral prayers for them. (11) And since all the representative groups of the world, having gathered in Mecca, have declared the Mirzais as a non-Muslim minority, and there is no doubt in this matter that the followers of Mirza Ghulam Muhammad Qadiani, whether they consider him a prophet or a reformer or the Promised Messiah, are out of Islam. And since the people of Pakistan are demanding that all Mirzais be declared a non-Muslim minority, be removed from key positions, and Rabwah be declared an open city. Therefore, in this session of the National Assembly of Pakistan, we present this bill: (1) That the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, whether they consider Mirza a prophet or a reformer or the Promised Messiah, whether they are called Qadiani or Lahori or Ahmadi, all be declared non-Muslims. (2) All of them should be removed from key positions and should not be appointed to these positions in the future. (3) And they should not have a specific city where they can sit and conspire against the country in every way. 2288 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 131st August, 1974 Bill As soon as it is passed, it will be enforced throughout Pakistan And the name of this bill will be "Non- Muslim Minority Bill." Signature Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi M.N.A. Signature Abdul Haleem M.N.A. Signature Abdul Haq (Balochistan) M.N.A. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Appendix No. 2 Reply to the Affidavit of the Lahori Mirzais 2589 Lahori and Qadiani Mirzais are one and the same. For Study Special Committee National Assembly Pakistan From Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi (MNA) Central Head All Pakistan Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam Hazarvi Group Maulana Abdul Haq Balochistani MNA. Maulana Abdul Hakeem MNA 2590 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 Introduction We have written a response to the memorandum of the Mirza'i Jamaat Rabwah and presented it to the National Assembly Committee. This memorandum was read out by Mirza Nasir Ahmad, the Imam of the Mirza'is. In response to this, we have proven the issue of the life of Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon him, from the Holy Quran, the teachings of the Messenger, the explanation of the Companions, the commentaries of the Mujaddids of thirteen hundred years, and the consensus of the Ummah. If the Lahori Mirza'is look at this book with justice, they will start calling Mirza a liar and a deceiver. In this book, we have also exposed the true nature of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, his being a tout of the British, his extreme flattery of Queen Empress of India, and have also clarified the issue of Jihad. Can such a person claim to be the very Muhammad? Now, in this brief pamphlet, the remaining things are presented by addressing the Lahori Mirza'is. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's Claim of Prophethood And Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib's Reprehensible Actions The Lamentable State of the Lahori Mirzais (1) Mirza Ji was first a preacher, then he denied being the likeness of Christ and the Promised Messiah. (Izalatul Auham, Part 1, p. 296) Then he became the Promised Messiah, then a prophet, and finally, the very essence of Muhammad. Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib even calls him a prophet and messenger. But in question and answer, he gets confused and says, "He is just a servant." He is nothing. Whatever there is, it is Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. The poor Lahoris are even afraid to call him a prophet. They hide behind linguistic manifestations, reflections, annihilation in the Messenger, and totality. They cannot even deny Mirza Ji's prophethood. In fact, Mirza Ji has written both kinds of things so that they can be used when needed. When camels were being caught for forced labor, the ostrich said, "I am a bird." When it was the birds' turn, it said, "I am a camel." Similarly, in Mirza Ji's basket, you will find both the claim of prophethood and the denial of prophethood, and he did this intentionally. Otherwise, why would the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, say that among my followers there will be thirty great liars and deceivers. Now, we will briefly mention Mirza Ji's claim of prophethood: (1) He revealed revelations upon himself, which he believed and had faith in, just like the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran, and understood them like those books. As you have already read. 2591 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [August 31, 1974 He Said (2) He claimed miracles and described his miracles so much that they could prove the prophethood of a thousand prophets. (3) He called those who did not believe in him as infidels, as you have read with reference to Haqiqat-ul-Wahi. (4) Mirza Ji wrote on page number of Ijaz Ahmadi. I was told that the news of you is present in the Quran and Hadith. And you are the embodiment of this verse. He is the one who sent his Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, so that He may make it prevail over all religions. Translation: God is the one who sent his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, so that He may make it prevail over all religions. This is a verse of the Quran and Mirza says that I am its embodiment. (5) Initially, this was my belief. What relation do I have to Jesus, son of Mary? He is a prophet and one of God's great close ones, and if anything appeared regarding my superiority, I would consider it a partial superiority. But later, the revelation of God Almighty that descended upon me like rain, did not let me stay on this belief. And explicitly gave me the title of prophet. But in such a way that from one aspect a prophet and from one aspect a follower... (2) How can I reject God Almighty's continuous revelation of thirty years? I believe in His holy revelation in the same way as all those gods I believe in the revelations that have come before me. Therefore, what can I do if God did not want to keep me less than that? How can I abandon God's command? ... In short, there is no contradiction in my words. I am a follower of the revelation of God Almighty. Until I was informed of this, I kept saying what I said in the beginning. And when I was informed of it, I said the opposite. I am a human being; I do not claim to be the knower of the unseen. I do not know why God did so. So God shows that this messenger's humble servant is greater than the Israelite Messiah, son of Mary. (Haqiqatul-Wahi, Page 150). (7) Remember that many people are deceived by hearing the name of the prophet in my claim and think that I have claimed the prophethood that was given to the prophets directly before. But they are mistaken in this thought. I do not make such a claim, but the expediency and wisdom of God Almighty has bestowed this status to prove the perfection of the spiritual blessings of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, that through the blessing of his grace I have been raised to the station of prophethood. Therefore, I cannot be called only a prophet, but a prophet from one aspect and a follower from another. And my prophethood is a reflection of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, not the original prophethood. For this reason, in the Hadith and in my revelation, just as my name has been called a prophet, so has my name been called a follower. So that it may be known that 2393 Every perfection I have attained is through following the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and through him. (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 150, footnote) (Translation) Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 95 (8) He casts His spirit upon whom He wills of His servants, meaning He bestows upon him the office of prophethood, and this entire blessing is from Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 103, Arabic Section, Inspirations (1) جاء نی آئل و اختار وادار اصبعه و اشار ان وعد الله اتي فطوبى لمن وجدورأيه Translation: Aael came to me, and he chose me and rotated his finger, and gestured that God's promise has come. Blessed is he who finds and sees it. (In the footnote is written) In this place, Aael is the name God Almighty has given to Gabriel because he returns again and again. End of Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, page 68 (10) And this claim has never been made by anyone else in the Ummah of Muhammad to this day that God Almighty has given me this name and that I alone am worthy of this name through God Almighty's revelation. And to say that I have claimed prophethood is how much ignorance, how much foolishness, and how much departure from the truth. O ignorant ones, my intention of "proof" is not that, God forbid, I stand in opposition to the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and claim prophethood or bring a new Sharia. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION My intent with prophethood is only the abundance of divine conversation and discourse, which is attained through following the Holy Prophet (PBUH). You also believe in conversation and discourse, so this is just a verbal dispute. That is, what you call conversation and discourse, I, according to God's command, call its abundance prophethood. (The whole issue is about agreeing on a term). (11) And I swear by God in whose hand is my life, that He has sent me, and He has named me, and He has called me by the name of the Promised Messiah, and He has shown great signs in confirmation of me, which reach up to three hundred thousand. (Appendix to Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 28) (12) And wherever I have denied prophethood or messengership, it is only in the sense that I am not bringing any independent Sharia, nor am I an independent prophet. But in the sense that I have received inward blessings from my leader, the Messenger, and by receiving his name for myself and through him, I have received knowledge of the unseen from God, I am a Messenger and a Prophet, but without any new Sharia. I have never denied being called a prophet in this way. Rather, it is in these senses that God has called me a prophet and a messenger. So even now I do not deny being a prophet and a messenger in these senses. August 1st, 1904 And my statement that (I am not a messenger and have not brought a book) means only that I am not the bearer of a new law. All these blessings are not upon me directly, but there is a holy being in the heavens whose spiritual grace encompasses me, namely Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. Keeping this intermediary in mind, and through him, and being named by his names Muhammad and Ahmad, I am both a messenger and a prophet, meaning both sent and one who receives news of the unseen from God. And in this way, the seal of the Seal of the Prophets remains secure, because I have received the same name through the reflection and shadow in the mirror of love. If anyone is simply angry at this divine revelation, asking why God has named me a prophet and messenger, then this is their foolishness, because God's seal is not broken by my being a prophet and messenger. (Footnote). In this way, neither is the seal of the prophecy of the Seal of the Prophets broken, nor are all individuals of understanding deprived of the concept of prophethood, which is in accordance with the verse "He does not disclose His secrets." (A Correction of an Error, page 8, number 9) (13) That is, when I am, in a manifest manner, the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and in a manifest form, all the perfections of Muhammad, along with the prophethood of Muhammad, are reflected in my humble mirror, then who is the separate person who has claimed prophethood separately? (A Correction of an Error, page 10) 2597 QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION (14) People with physical ideas sometimes made this Promised One (Mahdi) a descendant of Hassan, sometimes a descendant of Hussain, and sometimes a descendant of Abbas. But the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) only intended that he would be his heir like sons, heir to his name, his character, his knowledge, and his spirituality. So just as he will take his name in a metaphorical sense, take his character, take his knowledge, so too will he take his title of Prophet. (Ek Ghalati Ka Azala, pp. 11/12) (15) If the one who receives news of the unseen from God Almighty does not hold the name of Prophet, then tell me, by what name should he be called? If you say that he should be called Muhaddith, then I say that the meaning of 'tahdith' in any dictionary is not 'revelation of the unseen'. It is merely a faculty through which matters of the unseen are revealed. (Marginal note) This Ummah has been promised that it will receive every such reward that previous prophets and the truthful have received. So, among those rewards are revelations and prophecies by virtue of which the prophets (peace be upon them) were called prophets. But the Holy Quran not only forbids being a prophet but closes the door of knowledge of the unseen to others, as is evident from the verse, "So He does not disclose His unseen to anyone except to a messenger whom He has chosen." Thus, to receive pure knowledge of the unseen, it is necessary to be a prophet. And the verse "upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors" testifies that this Ummah is not deprived of this pure knowledge of the unseen and pure The unseen, according to the created, desires the sign of prophethood and messengership. And that path is directly closed. Therefore, it must be accepted that for this beloved, only the door of manifestation, reflection, and annihilation in the Messenger is open. (Removal of a misunderstanding, footnote on page) (17) And when God Almighty has given me these names, how can I reject them, or how can I fear anyone other than Him? (Removal of a Misunderstanding, page 8) (17) Mirza Sahib, according to him, received several revelations, some of which are mentioned. The true God is the one who sent His Messenger to Qadian. (Dafe-ul-Bala, page 11) (18) "Wa ma arsalnaka illa rahmatallil 'alameen" (Haqeeqatul Wahi, page 91) (Translation: And We have sent you as a mercy to the worlds.) (19) "La takhaf innahu la yakhafu ladayyal mursaloon" (Haqeeqatul Wahi, page 91) (Translation: Do not fear, for messengers do not fear in My presence.) (20) "Inna arsalna ilaikum rasoolan shahidan 'alaikum kama arsalna ila fir'awna rasoola" (Haqeeqatul Wahi, page 101) Translation: We have sent to you a messenger as a witness over you, just as We sent a messenger to Pharaoh. (21) "Inni ma'ar-rasooli ujeebu ukhti'u wa useebu" Translation: I, being with the Messenger, will answer. I will make mistakes and also be correct. (Haqeeqatul Wahi, page 103) (22) I am with the Messenger, I will stand, I will break the fast, and I will fast. (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 103/104) (23) Pati Qamar al-Anbiya (The moon of the prophets will come) (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 106) (24) He is the One who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, so that He may make it prevail over all religions. Translation: (That God who sent His Messenger with the religion of truth and guidance so that He may make it prevail over every religion) (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, A) (25) And recite to them what has been revealed to you from your Lord (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 72) Translation: And recite to them what has been revealed to you from your Lord. (26) Indeed, those who pledge allegiance to you - they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is above their hands. Translation: Those who pledge allegiance to your hand are pledging allegiance to the hand of God. This is the hand of God which is above their hands. (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 80) (27) Musaylima the Liar, during the time of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him; Judas Iscariot, the apostate during the time of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him; and Chiragh Din Jammu Wala, Abdul Hakeem Khan, became apostates in our time. (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 159) (28) It is written in Tabligh Risalat, Volume 10, 124. 2000 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN August 131st, 1974 Every Islamic empire is gnashing its teeth to kill you because in their eyes, you have been declared infidels and apostates. (29) Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 10, page 133 I am a prophet according to God's command. (Akhbar-e-Aam, May 23, 1908) (30) The name of Qadian is in the Quran. In reality, this is the correct statement. (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 9, page 39) The deception of Lahorees and their competence (1) What would the poor Lahorees understand of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the one whom Sarwar-e-Alam (PBUH) calls a liar and deceiver? These simple people who make noise about preaching, how far can they judge him? Only two points are necessary to describe their academic ability. One is that when the Lahori Mirzais had read their published statement before the Special Committee (National Assembly), I pointed out that wasn't there a mistake in such and such line of such and such page? They said no. I said, "Look carefully again." They looked carefully and said it was absolutely correct, which revealed their Arabic competence. In that line, this saying of the Prophet (PBUH) was quoted: لم يبق من النبوة الا المبشرات (that among the components of prophethood, only dreams remain). In this, the word "من" appears, due to which the alif (the vowel at the end) of "یقی" is dropped. But these preachers wrote "لم یبقی" with alif and even when pointed out, called it correct. The second thing is that when these gentlemen were called for cross-examination, the same person reading the statement repeatedly said "واللہ العظیم" (By God, the Great) with a "pesh" on the "ha," which... (Continued from La S MAGNAAL DISCUSSION 2601 We were annoyed and this humble servant Hazravi stood up and addressed the head of the committee to ask these gentlemen to at least read the text correctly, leaving out the "waw" which gives the object the accusative case. Actually, the word is "Wallahul Azim" with a "zer" under the "ha," but these worthy preachers kept reading "Wallahul Azeem." This exposed their incompetence in the middle of the square. (2) The Ahmadiyya Lahore group says that we do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be a prophet, nor did he claim prophethood. In this way, Muslims can be deceived by their statement, thinking, "Why should they be called infidels if they do not consider Mirza Ji to be a prophet nor believe in his survival?" This is also a complete deception. (1) First, Mirza Ji claimed prophethood. (2) Then, they also, to some degree, call him a prophet or interpret his claims. But no interpretation in the definitive matters of religion is admissible or acceptable, for example, denying the Oneness of God and saying that the meaning of Oneness is the unity of the nation. Without national unity, the claim of Oneness is false. The meaning of polytheism is discord. If there is unity in the nation, then outwardly prostrating before idols does not make a person a polytheist. Denying the obligatory nature of prayer and saying that "Salat" means supplication. This famous prayer is not intended. These interpretations cannot save that person from disbelief. Similarly, after claiming prophethood, one cannot escape by interpreting it with words like "manifestation," "reflection," and "absorption in the Prophet." Neither Mirza Ji can escape, nor can the Lahori Mirzais. (3) Out of compassion for the Lahore Mirzais and with the intention of their accepting Islam, a few points are written. (a) Mirza Ji said, "I am a prophet and a messenger." (b) "God has given me this name." NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (August 31, 1974) (ج) I have attained the station of Prophethood. (د) I have attained the office of Prophethood. (ھ) I have been given the title of Prophet. (و) Only I am worthy of this name (from Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq to Khawaja Ajmeri. All the saints of the Ummah, the Ahl al-Bayt, scholars, the righteous, Muhammad Din, the Muhaddithin, Mujtahids and Imams were not worthy of this name). (ز) Gabriel came to me (and he refers again and again) and he rotated his finger and announced the coming of the promise. (ح) If a man like me is not called a Prophet, then what should he be called? One cannot even call him a Muhaddith. (ط) By my denial, Chiragh Din Jammu Wala and Abdul Hakeem became apostates, and in the time of the Holy Prophet, Musaylimah Kazzab was called an apostate, and in the time of Jesus, peace be upon him, Judas Iscariot was an apostate. This article proves that Mirza Sahib considered those who did not believe in him to be infidels and apostates like Musaylimah Kazzab and Judas Iscariot. However, their only fault was that they did not believe in Mirza Sahib's claims. Then Mirza Sahib applied to himself all the verses of the Holy Quran that were only for the Holy Prophet, and in them was the matter of Prophethood. (ی) The Lahori group has written on page number 7/8 line number of their statement: This is the distinctive characteristic of truth and falsehood, that truth always stands on one path. And falsehood keeps changing its tactics. Similarly, the Lahoris, regarding Mirza Sahib not changing, have also presented testimony. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2603 But now you consider for yourself and read our numbers 5 and 6, that Mirza Sahib did not initially acknowledge his complete superiority over Jesus (peace be upon him), because he was a prophet. But revelation rained down like rain, and eventually he changed, and then he puts the responsibility for this change on God, who explicitly named him a prophet. Similarly, until writing the "Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya," he believed Jesus (peace be upon him) to be alive in the heavens. Then he changed and became Jesus himself. Similarly, he did not initially call Muslims infidels; now he has started doing so. (K) Mirza Sahib called himself a prophet and messenger hundreds of times. In fact, he declared himself to be the embodiment of "And giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad" (which is a prophecy of Jesus (peace be upon him) recorded in the Quran). Similarly, he declared himself to be the embodiment of "It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religions." Then, from "He does not disclose His secrets to anyone except to a messenger whom He has chosen," he proved himself to be a messenger. Could these actions be of someone who does not have a heartfelt desire to be called a prophet? (L) Furthermore, how much effort did Mirza Sahib put in to prove his prophethood? Read our number 12. He stretched and strained to prove his prophethood through three intermediaries. One sentence is, "I have received inner blessings from my guide, the Messenger." The second sentence is, "and having received his name for myself." The third sentence is. 2004 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (Through this, he has received knowledge of the unseen from God) is a messenger and a prophet. See what difficulty it took to become a prophet. That is why people call him a "stretched" prophet. (M) Read our passage number 13: ("In a reflected manner, all the perfections of Muhammad, along with the prophethood of Muhammad, are reflected in the mirror of my vicegerency.") Did you see that the prophethood of Muhammad has also come into the mirror of Mirza Ji? Whereas in a mirror, only the image of what is in front comes, not the inner things and attributes and character. But if Mirza Ji's claim is accepted that the reflection of Muhammad's prophethood has also come, then the prophethood of the Prophet was an independent prophethood and with Sharia. Then why don't you call Mirza Ji an independent Sharia-bearing prophet in a reflected manner? (N) Then from where did you drag this issue of manifestation into Sharia? Someone should dare to explain to us the meaning of being a manifestation of Muhammad. It cannot be that the two have merged into one person. This is nonsense and against the obvious. If there are two, then the seal of the finality of prophethood is broken. If the soul of the Prophet came into Mirza Ji, then this is the Hindu concept of metempsychosis, which is completely wrong and false. At most, you can only say that Mirza Ji's rising, sitting, sleeping, waking, eating, drinking, habits, worship, morals, beliefs, conduct, manners, society, civilization, politics, the rights of Allah, the rights of people, dealings, human equality, compassion and empathy, preaching, humility and meekness, abstinence and piety, expression of strength in times of weakness, and expression of humility in strength, Islamic brotherhood and opposition to disbelief, and addressing infidel kings, in short, in every way, Mirza Ji was just like the Leader of the World, peace be upon him. This claim, from the Companions to this day, no one has been able to make in the world, nor can it be so. QAIJANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2605 Yes, those whose circumstances we have written in response to the Rabwah Party's memorandum, how can they be Muhammad? (Indeed, we belong to Allah, and indeed, to Him we will return.) You people only deceive people with words like "reflection," "image," etc. (Question) When prophethood is finished, and you also believe this, then why do you twist things to prove Mirza Sahib to be a Muslim? Mirza Sahib only tried to run his business by becoming the coming Jesus, son of Mary. If you see our book in response to the Rabwah Jamaat's memorandum, then you will find out that the coming Messiah, son of Mary, is the same original Jesus, son of Mary, and not a fabricated Messiah. With proofs, and with signs, and with the circumstances of Mirza Sahib. (Objector) Read our footnote number 15. With what difficulty Mirza Sahib tried to prove the knowledge of the unseen for himself. The Qadianis, rather Mirza Sahib himself, have deceived by not quoting the complete verse. The complete verse is: "(He is) the Knower of the unseen, and He does not disclose His [knowledge of the] unseen to anyone Except whom He has approved of messengers, and indeed, He assigns before each of them and behind him observers." Translation: God is the Knower of the unseen. He does not disclose His secrets (the unseen and revelation) to anyone (completely) except to a messenger whom He has chosen. Then surely He appoints guards before and behind him. This is a mention of that revelation, secret, and unseen, which angels bring to the prophet within guards. There remains no doubt or uncertainty in this unseen and revelation. This revelation comes to the prophets. Mirza Sahib becomes a prophet by joining in this. He says, "What can I do? Such pure unseen is not available without becoming a prophet. So, one has to become something by becoming the "manifestation" of the Holy Prophet." 2600 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August, 1974 (F) Mirza Ji, in his last article which he gave to the daily newspaper Akhbar-e-Aam on the last day of his life, also beat the drum of his prophethood. So, O Lahore! Tell me, if he was stopped from or denied the word "Prophet," then what was the need for him to ruin and destroy his progeny by calling himself a prophet even as he was dying, and simple-minded people like you as well? (This article that Mirza Ji sent to Akhbar-e-Aam is listed in Tableegh-e-Risalat, Part 10, page 33.) Lahori Mirza'i In response to the Attorney General's question about whether Mirza Ji called those who did not believe in him "Kafir" (infidel), he has been evasive. He has taken refuge in "Kufr Doon Kufr" (infidelity within infidelity) and considers imitation of Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib as a way out. However, during the time of Hazrat Abu Bakr, the Ansar and Muhajirin waged war against those who denied even one Zakat. They did not forgive them by saying that they were not outside the Millat (community), nor did they allow them to live by giving them the benefit of "Kufr Doon Kufr." This is a hoax. You can call any un-Islamic and un-Sharia act an un-Islamic act because not complying with God's command is essentially a requirement of denial. However, you cannot declare any Muslim outside of Islam, an apostate, or an infidel due to such practical weakness. A person who talks like this can be made an example of "Qul Doon Katheer" (saying less with more meaning). But one who claims prophethood, claims divinity, insults the prophets, denies the physical ascension (Miraj), denies the life of Jesus and the descent of the Messiah, the son of Mary, denies the definitive tenets of Islam, and changes the meanings of the Quran and Hadith, you cannot call him a Muslim of any degree, nor can you make him an example of "Kufr Kufr Doon Kufr," nor has any great companion, Muhaddith (scholar of Hadith), Faqih (jurist), or Mujaddid (reformer) done so. Mirza Ji considers the denial of himself as the denial of God and the Prophet. Tell me, can anyone remain a Muslim in any degree by denying God and the Prophet? 2008 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [31st August. 1974 (4) He lied about the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) that he had ten thousand Jews killed in one day. (Haqiqatul Wahi, p. 150) Then on page 111 of the same book he wrote that several thousand Jews were killed. This is absolutely false. There is only one incident of Banu Qurayza in which four to six hundred Jews were killed, but they were killed by the decision of their own appointed arbitrator, and according to the Torah. These were also the Jews who, at the critical moment of the Battle of the Trench, joined a 24,000-strong army of infidels to arrange the massacre of the Muslims of Medina, and even resolved to eradicate Islam itself. (5) Mirza Ji lied about the Holy Quran that (in the last days, the events of plague and earthquakes will appear due to the worship of Jesus). (Tatima Haqiqatul Wahi, p. 64. O Mirzais! Where is it written in the Holy Quran?) (6) Mirza Ji wrote in his book Arba'in, footnote number 3, p. 30, that wherever I am mentioned in Bukhari Sharif, Muslim Sharif, the Gospel, and the books of other prophets, the word "prophet" has been used in reference to me. O Mirzais! In Muslim Sharif, in the mention of the descent of Hazrat Isa Ibn Maryam (peace be upon him), he has been called a prophet, but this is proof that the one who is coming is the same Ibn Maryam, a prophet. There will be no artificial Messiah. But to shorten the discussion, we ask where Mirza Ji has been called a prophet in Bukhari Sharif and the books of other prophets. Prove your leader to be truthful. Then they say that I am mentioned in all these books. What is a dwarf, what is the dwarf's broth? (7) Mirza Ji wrote on page 20 of his book Arba'in, Part III, that it was necessary that the prophecies of the Holy Quran and the Hadith be fulfilled, in which it was written that When the Promised Messiah appears, he will suffer at the hands of Islamic scholars, and they will declare him an infidel. Mirzais! Get together and find a verse in the Holy Quran in which this is written, otherwise abandon this liar. Then, show the words "Promised Messiah" in any book from the Quran and Hadith, and receive a reward. (8) When Mirza Sahib became eager to marry Muhammadi Begum, who was a minor girl and Mirza Sahib was middle-aged, he revealed upon himself that Allah Almighty had said: "(Zoujna khaa)" that We have married this Muhammadi Begum to you. This was a blatant lie against God Almighty. If God had performed the marriage, then why could he not get her? And if there were so many obstacles that God could not remove, then why did He perform the marriage? And Mirza Sahib's God did not even understand that after a year of continuous effort, this girl would not be found. He unnecessarily performed the marriage. (You will find Mirza Sahib's prediction in all his books) (9) Mirza Sahib issued a fatwa that it is necessary to observe hijab from all men except those with whom marriage is not permissible. (Seerat-ul-Mahdi Part III, p. 210) Then he filled his fists with sweets from a woman named Bano (Seerat-ul-Mahdi, p. 213) and appointed Mai Tu Munshiani and Mai Rasool Bibi to guard him in the dark nights. A young girl, Zainab, would serve all night, fanning him, and happiness and joy would be obtained until morning (Seerat-ul-Mahdi Part III, 272/273). You tell me, is the fatwa correct, or is this action of these non-related women? (10) Mirza Ji also wrote about the Prophet Muhammad's (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) guidance or indication towards the marriage of Muhammadi Begum. (That O, fools! This will happen. The Prophet has also indicated.) Whereas this was a mere lie, only the love of Muhammadi Begum had blinded and deafened Mirza Ji. Just like a hungry person interpreted two times two as four meant four loaves of bread. Could the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have been wrongly informed about the marriage of Mirza Ji and Muhammadi Begum, then why couldn't he have been rightly informed that this marriage would not take place and Mirza Qadiani would be disgraced? (11) Mirza Ji wrote that the verse of Miraj (From Masjid al-Haram to Masjid al-Aqsa, Masjid al-Aqsa refers to my mosque in Qadian. It has been blessed. Tabligh-e-Risalat, Part 9, pp. 37/38) and wrote that Masjid al-Aqsa does not refer to the mosque in Jerusalem but to the mosque of the Promised Messiah. p. 38. Consider how he has tried to throw dust in the eyes of the people.) Then he said that Qadian is mentioned in the Quran. (p. 39, Tabligh-e-Risalat, Part 9) (13) Mirza Ji called those who did not believe in him the offspring of prostitutes. But Mirza Ji's eldest son, Mirza Afzal Ahmed, did not believe in Mirza Ji, and when he died, Mirza Ji did not offer his funeral prayer. So, was he also the son of a prostitute? And if his mother, Mirza Ji's wife, was like that, then how pure is the pure house that contains such women and boys (this is all a punishment for the nonsense that Mirza Ji spoke about the dignity of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him)), and what was the condition of that woman's husband? QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2611 (13) Mirza Ji indicated his Qadiani minaret as the minaret that will be to the east of Damascus, near which Hazrat Isa will descend, and said that this is that minaret. (Tabligh-e-Risalat, Volume 9, pp. 37-39). It is as if the minaret means the minaret itself, but Damascus means Qadian. (Only you can do such a thing; only men act like this). Mirza Ji, you should have thought that Christ (peace be upon him) would descend near this minaret. It is as if the minaret would already exist, but you built this minaret after your blessed birth or descent by collecting donations. It would not be out of place to tell a story about an opium addict here. Whenever he went to the toilet, he would fill a jug with water, but because he was an opium addict, he was constipated, and there was a hole in the jug. By the time he was done, the water would have run out of the jug. One day he got angry and went to the toilet and washed himself first, then started defecating, and said, "Now let's see how you run out." (14) Mirza Ji wrote about the birth of Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) without a father (see Haqiqat-ul-Wahi Al-Isteftah, p. 49). Then he wrote that the Quran rejects his birth without a father (Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, p. 41). (See this is Mirza Ji's knowledge of the Quran). Now one of the two things must be false, which will prove Mirza Ji a liar and confirm the Hadith. (15) O Lahori Mirzais! Think about what deception you are in, that Mirza Ji, due to his perfect obedience and devotion to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), became the very embodiment of Muhammad and was thus called a prophet. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 131st August, 1974 2012 See and believe that prophethood is purely a gift and bestowal of God. It is not attained through any deed, earning, or following, but God bestows prophethood upon whom He wills. He creates their capacity in such a way beforehand, and He knows best whom to make a prophet. Allah knows best where to place His message. Translation: God knows best to whom He gives His prophethood. Mirza himself has acknowledged this fact, as he writes in his book Hamamatul Bushra, page 82, printed in 1311 AH at Khushi Ghulam Qadir Sialkoti Press: There is no doubt that being a Muhaddith is purely a gift from God; it is not attained through any earning or deed, just like the state of prophethood. Translation: There is no doubt that being a Muhaddith is purely a gift from God; it is not attained through any earning or deed, just like the case of prophethood. So, to be فنافی الرسول (Fana fi al-Rasool - annihilated in the Prophet), excessive following, or being an Ummati (follower) prophet are all deceptions; otherwise, the Prophet himself stated that liars and deceivers would arise from his Ummah (community). Each one will say, "I am a prophet." In this saying, the sign is given that he will be from the Ummah, and by mentioning his deceit and deception, it is pointed towards the deceptions and frauds of all such people like Mirza, which we have described in response to the memorandum of the Rabwah Party regarding the circumstances of Mirza. Lahori Mirzais (1) The Lahori Mirzais are under the illusion that they do not consider Mirza Ji to be a prophet, Mehr Bano! First, you cannot refute the hundreds of statements that Mirza Ji made for prophethood. (2) Then, believe me, Mirza Ji deliberately made two kinds of statements so that they could be used on every occasion. This is deception. (3) By believing this, you have to accept him as the Messiah, son of Mary, which is against the thirteen-hundred-year-old belief. And in this way, you and the Qadiani group become one by calling him the Promised Messiah. And they also call him a prophet because the word "prophet" has come in the hadith of Muslim Sharif in the mention of Hazrat Messiah Ibn Maryam (peace be upon him). So, did the Holy Prophet also use the literal prophet? You have made metaphor and dictionary so common that metaphor is everywhere. (4) Then you have to deny dozens of Quranic verses. (5) You have to accept Mirza Ji's words in insulting Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) and other prophets (peace be upon them). (6) For his sake, you deny the physical ascension of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). (7) Following Mirza Ji, you consider Mirza Ji's revelation to be as definitive and pure as the Quran and the Torah. (8) You have denied that the disbelievers will remain in Hell forever. (9) You consider such a person to be a reformer and call him a true Muslim whose beliefs are heretical. (10) You consider all those statements of Mirza to be correct, in which obedience to the British is obligatory and Jihad is stopped. (11) You confirm Mirza Ji's Tau Diyanah (base) ideas and deny the certainties of religion. (12) You give preference to a non-prophet over a prophet. (13) You confirm Mirza Ji's statement that the miracles of Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, were mesmerism. (And Mirza Ji himself could do that) and the Ascension of the Prophet was spiritual (and Mirza himself had such ascensions). (14) In the preaching that you do, taking cover behind the finality of Prophethood after the Prophet, you deny the new and old prophets and deny the second coming of Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, which is continuous and denying which is disbelief. (15) You also confirm this statement of Mirza Ji that Allah Almighty Himself had hidden the original meanings of the Holy Quran, in which the death of Jesus Christ was mentioned, from the early centuries. Until Mirza Ji himself did not understand until he became a reformer. (16) We can understand the merits, revelations, inspirations, and the truth and falsehood of anything only from the Quran and Hadith. But if God Almighty Himself makes the Holy Quran disappear from sight, and Mirza Ji rejects the heap of hadiths that he considers against his revelation, then what criterion is left in our hands? (17) O Lahori Mirzais! Think for a moment, what kind of man have you made the Promised Messiah and reformer? Mirza Ji wrote in the preface to Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya Part V that the first fifty parts (Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya's) writing was intended, but was limited to five from fifty. And since there is only a dot's difference between the numbers fifty and five, that promise was fulfilled with five parts. Mirzais! Tell the truth, if you have a debt of fifty thousand, can you get rid of it by paying five thousand? Or if you have ordered goods worth five lakhs, can you fulfill your commitment by paying fifty thousand? If Mirza Ji's logic is accepted, the whole world order will be disrupted. Why are you ruining your afterlife by following this strange and bizarre man? Appeal to the Lahoris In the end, we appeal to the Lahori Mirzais that the Qadianis have made it a hereditary seat of their forefathers! They have earned crores of rupees, they may be dominated by bigotry, but now you should come out of this mistake, sincerely repent, and accept all the powers of Allah Almighty and the old religion, and join the Muslims so that your religion and world may be better. You preach, Muslims will be devoted to you, otherwise following Mirza Ji is wrong in the belief of seventy crore Muslims and against the Quran, Hadith, and consensus of the Ummah. After these lines, we support the bill that we have presented, which mentions declaring both parties of Mirzais, Qadiani and Lahori, as a non-Muslim minority, declaring Rabwah an open city, and depriving Mirzais of key positions. Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi Abdul Hakeem MNA MNA Abdul Haq (Balochistani) MNA Mr. Chairman: That's it, leave the rest. It's time for prayer. This bill is with us. Maulana Abdul Haleem: When it comes to something important, then leave it! Mr. Chairman: It has been circulated. These resolutions have not been read by them, nor should you read them because they have been circulated. This copy is with us. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: This bill? Mr. Chairman: This bill is with the members. Maulana Abdul Haleem: Okay, we'll do the rest the day after tomorrow. Mr. Chairman: Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un. You have taken eight hours. There is a limit to patience. What is the fault of these members who have been sitting and listening for two months? What is the fault of these poor people? Mian Muhammad Ataullah: When Maulvi Mufti Mahmood Sahib was reading, no objection was raised. Mr. Chairman: Leave that matter. I had requested both of them. There were 260 pages in his book and 200 pages in his book. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: You don't know, they have been mischievous. Mian Aslam and Mian Ataullah have been making faces throughout your speech. Okay, does any member want to speak after the prayer? Voices? No one. Will the quorum not be complete? QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2617 Maulana Abdul Hakeem: We will do it when the meeting is held the day after tomorrow. Mr. Chairman: References from half of your speech have been taken from Mufti Shafi's book. He has only given me two books. If I were given 50-60 books, I would distribute them to the members. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: We have not collected any funds for the finality of prophethood to give away free books. Mr. Chairman: Will any other member speak? Okay, then we will hold a meeting on Monday. A Member: Monday is Shab-e-Barat, there should be a holiday. Mr. Chairman: This is not a primary school that you can take a holiday whenever you want. We will hold a meeting the day after tomorrow at ten o'clock. And there will be two meetings on Monday. We will discuss in detail up to the 2nd and 3rd of the month. The Attorney General will speak on the 4th. There is a joint sitting on the evening of the 5th. Now the House is adjourned to meet on Monday, the 2nd at 10 a.m. Thank you very much. I very much appreciate the patience of the honorable members. [The Special Committee of the whole House adjourned to meet at ten of the clock, in the morning, on Monday, the 2nd September, 1974] PCPP 1104(10) NA-26-2-2011-450. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. Mansoor Stationery Mart, Hassan Ali, Effendi Road, Opp. Light House Cinema, Karachi. M/s. Poncer Book House, PO. Box No. 37, Awan Lodge Runder Road, Opp. Dow Medical College, Karachi. M's Royal Book Company, 232-Saddar Co-operative Market, Abdullah Haroon Road, Post Box No. 7737 Karachi 74400. M/s. Potowalu Book Corporation, Ismail Mension Stretchen Road, N.E.D. College Road, Pakistan Chowk, Post Bos No. 135, Kurachi, 74200. M/s. Sipra Book Company, A-12 Street No. 2, Usman Ghani Road, Manzoor Colony, Karachi. 75460, M/s. Pakistan Law House, Pakistan Chowk, PO. Box No. 90, Karachi. M/s. Firdous Stationery Mart, 85 Liaquat Market Opp. New Mamon Masjid, M. A. Jinnah Road, Karachi. M/s. Readers Associates Victoria Chamber No. I, P.B. 7485 Abdullah Haroon Road, Karachi. M/s. Supper Law Books Supplies, 15-A, Nelsons Chamber, Hasrat Mohani Road, Karachi. 10. M/s. Executive Updating Service, D-T, 24, Block 18, Federal 'B' Area, PO. Box No. 13708, Karachi 75950 Phone No. 631 8699, Fax No. 631 0276 11. M/s. Indus Publications, 25 Fareed Chambers, Abdellah Haroon Road, Karachi. 12. M/s. Iqbal Book Depot, Books Export House, Near St. Joseph Girls College, Shahrah-e-Iraq, Saddar, Karachi. 13. M/s. Your Stores, 22-New Memon Masjid, M.A. Jinnah Road, Karachi, 14. M/s. Central Store, 24-New Memon Masjid, M.A. Jinnah Road, Karachi. 15. M/s. Kashif Book & Stationery Centre, 3-B, Block A, UK. Square Shahrah-e-Pakistan, 16-Federal B. Arca, Karachi 16. M/s. Muslim Book World C-1/14 Al-Ahram Square, 3rd Floor, Block G North Nazimabad, Post Box 10858 (Hyder), Karachi. 17. M/s. Somna International Services, Suit No. 320, 3rd Floor, HMH Square, Near Civic Centre, Kuruchi-75300 Ph: 4921754, Fax: (92-21) 4921754, E-mail: somna@super.net.pk QUETTA 18. M/s. Kalat Publishers Book Sellers. Rustamji Lane, Jinnah Road, Quetta. SUKKUR 19. M/s. Ajaib Store. Ajaib Manzil, Frere Road, Sukkur, MULTAN 20. M/s. Mullan Chamber of Commerce & Industries, Katchery Road, Multan. VEHARI 21. Ms. Rahmat Printing Services. Ahata Shah Nawaz, Mandi Burewala, District Vehari. FAISALABAD 22. M/s. S. Maula Buksh Abdul Aziz, 14-Cooperative Bank Chamber, Rail Bazar, PO. Box-104, Faisalabad. LAHORE 23. Mirza Book Agency, 65, Shahrah-e-Quaid-e-Azam, PO. Box No. 729, Lahore. 24. Ms. Mansoor Book House, Kutchery Road, Lahore. 25. Mis Islamic Service, 40-A, Urdu Bazar, PO Box No. 1493, Lahore. 26. M/s. Kausar Brothers. I-Turner Road, Near High Court, Lahore. 27. M/s. People's Publishing House, 4-Begum Road, P.O. Box No. 862, Lahore. 28. M/s. Publishers United (Ltd.) P.O. Box No. 1689, 176-Anarkali, Lahore. 29. Mis. Punjab Religious Book Society, Anarkali, Lahore. 30. M/s. Premier Book House, Shaheen Market, Anarkali, PO. Box No. 1888, Lahore. 31. M/s. Ghulam Mohy-ud-Din & Brothers, Pakistan Law Journal (Stall in Lahore High Court) Mohammadi Park. Mohammadi Road, Lahore. 32. M/s. Vanguard Books Ltd., 8-Davis Road, Lahore. 33. M/s. All Pakistan Legal Decisions, Nabha Road, Lahore. 34. Ms. Book Centre Liberty Market, Gulberg, Lahore. 35. M/s. Multi Line Books, Regal Chowk, Hall Road, Post Box No. 1268, Lahore. 36. M/s. Techincal and Commercial Book Co., Chowk Dalgran, 128-Railway Road, Lahore. RAWALPINDI 37 M/s. Federal Law, House H/136 Murree Road, Committee Chowk, Rawalpindi. 38. M/s. American Book Company, Bank Road, Rawalpindi. ISLAMABAD 39. M/s. Fatherand International (Pvt) Ltd.) 31-Javid Plaza, Blue Area, Islamabad. 40. M/s. Al-Aziz Corporation, 27-T&T Centre, G-8/4, Islamabad. 41. M. Maktabah Abdiya, Shop No. 10, Block No. 19, Markaz G-9, Islamabad. 42. M/s. London Book House, Kohsar Market, Islamabad. 43. M/s. The Golden Information Bureau, Plot No. 78. I&T, Centre, G-8/1, Islamabad. No. 1817 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Monday, September 2nd, 1974 (Contains No. 1-21) CONTENTS 1. Recitation from the Holy Qur'an...... 2. Qadiani issue - General discussion Continued Pages 2699 2699-2824 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD No. 18 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Monday, the 2nd September, 1974 (Contains No. 1—21) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEES OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Monday, September 2nd, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at ten o'clock in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Mr. Chairman: I would like to know who would like to speak. You wanted some time, it has come from your side. If you want to say something, say it briefly because Mufti Mahmood and Professor Ghafoor Ahmed have given a list of 37 members. Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: I wanted to say a few words. Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Soomro. 2699 Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir, every point in connection with Ahmediat has been fully expressed in its entirety and I only associate myself with the sanctity and piety of the proposal and I would only express a few words. Sir, it is now crystal clear that this was a plot and the plot with all its ramifications has been discussed here and after that there can be no two opinions that according to Muslim conception they are nothing but 'Kafir'. That being quite clear, then the conclusion or the step that would be taken after clarification is to have them declared not only as non-Muslims but even their publications and literature should be banned if it is meant that hereafter such religious flare ups should be ended for ever. Sir, their expressions are clear; their only target is the 'Shaan' of Hazrat Muhammad (peace be upon him) and they want that 'Shaan' and they feel this the only object to be achieved. So, Sir, their publications should be banned. Sir, sometimes he speaks that "I am Ghulam-i-Ahmad, I am the slave, a humble slave" and in the same breath he again says that he is Muhammad (Peace be upon him) personified and speaks so disparagingly even of As'hab Sidikah, calling himself sometimes personified Hazrat (Peace be upon him), and sometimes he puts himself even above all Nabis in the past. About the status of As'hab Sidikah and the Panjtan and Hussain (Peace be upon him) he calls them as below himself and call them non-entities. He calls Hazrat Ali (Peace be upon him) "murda, mara howa tera Ali". All these things really, Sir, agitate the minds of Muslims. Even during the discussion that went on here in this August House, one had to control and exercise restraint over one-self to see them being spoken so disparagingly and in such a humiliating manner, over whom, our families, our children be "qurban". Therefore, in future such literature should be banned if it is meant really that hereafter there be no religious feuds in this country. According to their own faith they did not offer prayers of Janaza, even of Quaid-i-Azam, and with open mind said that "he is 'Kafir' or we are 'Kafir', according to their way of faith. Therefore, Sir, just to have the end and termination of this propaganda, the only thing lies that they should be declared as non-Muslims. Government should now declare their Rabwa to be an open city and their propaganda should be banned hereafter. Not only that, Sir, but as per information received, land surrounding Rabwa in their name should not be given to Ahmadias. I think restriction should be imposed hereafter. Any land surrounding Rabwa should not be given to Ahmadis; it shouuld also be banned. If such steps are taken, I feel that as provided in the Constitution that the religion of this country is Islam, then it will be a proof and they will believe that Islam is the religion of this country. With these few words I just expressed I thank you very much. Mr. Chairman: Shahzada Saeed-ur-Rasheed Abbasi! Shahzada Saeed-ur-Rasheed Abbasi, Sir! I belong to the area which Before the creation of Pakistan and during the One Unit period, it was known as the State of Bahawalpur. was called. The State of Bahawalpur was the largest Islamic state in Punjab. Here Islam prevailed was high and Islamic law was in force. Therefore, in this land, Nawab Al-Haj Sadiq Muhammad Khan Abbasi A very important event took place during his reign. It was a case that was filed in 1926 and which later became famous as the Bahawalpur verdict. Mufti Mahmood Sahib gave a booklet to all the members. I hope that all the members have seen it. would have seen it. Sir! The decision was very important and it was made when India was under There was no Muslim rule, but the British ruled. And at that time this decision was made in a Muslim state happened. And this case continued for a long time. Finally on seventh February In 1935, Munshi Akbar Khan, who was the District Judge at the time, announced its verdict. The decision because Since it is very long, I don't want to go into it. I would only request that the day unit After its formation, the State of Bahawalpur was abolished and injustice was done to us only because Because we made this decision. The people of Bahawalpur made this decision and from that day Injustice is being done to us. Progress has stopped there. We were oppressed. I do not consider it appropriate to mention the names of the gentlemen who did all this here. In any case, the people of Bahawalpur know very well what they did. When the government of Bhutto Khan was in power, these officers who were present here at that time opened fire on the peaceful procession at Farid Gate. Those gentlemen know very well what their purpose was. This decision was made by the Muslims of Bahawalpur against the Qadianis and we are still being punished for it today. And I hope that the government will keep this in mind. The injustices that were done to us, the treatment we received after this decision, and the punishment we received, and now I hope that we will be treated better. Our punishment will end. 27 years after the creation of Pakistan, this decision is being made in this house today, and as far as I am concerned and as far as the people of Bahawalpur are concerned, this decision was made for us 40 years ago. And I believe that the decision that has been made is correct. And I still stand by it today. And I fully support it. Being a humble servant of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), I have stood by it till today and will continue to do so until my death. Mr. Chairman Abbasi Sahib! Let me make a request, I had mentioned that day as well that we are holding a closed-door session, one thing is essential in it, that you tell the solution to everything, what will be the benefit of declaring a minority, what will be the loss. If you don't give it, what will be the loss, what will be the benefit, because we are sitting here with a realistic approach, so you have to say on both sides which resolution to adopt that is sufficient, whether to do Malik Jafar's or someone else's, or give a new proposal. Now the discussion should be in the form of some proposals, suggestions and solutions. We have heard much about everything in order to lessen the burden on the Steering Committee, which will meet on 4th or 5th to finalize the recommendations in the light of the debate that has taken place. So, I will request the honorable members to come forward with concrete proposals, and they must look towards all the aspects that in case they are declared as a minority, what would be the consequences, and in case they are not declared as a minority, what would be the result and consequences. This should be kept in view. Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: Point of information. As you just said that those who speak should suggest remedial measures or consequential result after such steps, if this is the object which I have been able to understand, in that case you will allow me a few minutes more to express my views on that line. I will just, in my humble way, suggest a few things as desired by you, Sir. Mr. Chairman: Sahibzada Safiullah. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bokhari: Point of information. Mr. Chairman: Just a minute, I have given the floor to Sahibzada Safiullah. Sahibzada Safiullah: Mr. Speaker, Sir! I want to submit that this is a very important and serious issue, if the honorable members give proposals in writing on this, it will be more appropriate because there are many things verbally that slip out of one's mind. Mr. Chairman: Necessarily in writing because this is a national problem, but such things that are not part of these books can be presented verbally here. And if the honorable members want to give it in writing, they can give it in writing as well. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bokhari: Mr. Speaker! I only want to ask that some things have been left out according to the book and Sunnah that could not be included in the discussion, especially No, because in their lengthy statements, during the extensive cross-examination that the Attorney General conducted on them, they did not say anywhere in their responses that Mirza Sahib was not a prophet. It is strange that the Lahori group, which is a faction within them, regarding whom my personal opinion was that they did not consider Mirza Sahib to be the last prophet but rather a reformer, or whatever you may understand, or someone of a lower rank than a prophet, but during the cross-examination, I was surprised by the clarity and strange manner in which they expressed their opinion that Mirza Sahib was certainly (God forbid) a prophet. Actually, the dispute or opposition between these two, that is, the Lahori and Rabwah group or sect, is not about whether Mirza Sahib is a prophet or a reformer. Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib, who was a close friend and companion of Mirza Sahib and considered himself to be the rightful successor, when the question of succession arose, Bashiruddin Sahib, who was sixteen, seventeen, or eighteen years old at the time, was made the successor simply because he was Mirza Sahib's son, so Maulana Muhammad Ali Sahib separated his like-minded people because it was against his nature. Sir! There is one thing I do not understand. The Quran says, God says, and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself has stated that he is the last prophet in every way. Gentlemen! Someone has a father. It is a strange thing that there are many types of fathers. A second father and a third type of father. And if this interpretation can be taken regarding the prophet, that there are many types of prophethood and many degrees (God forbid), that God also has many forms, according to their belief, then how can we accept that God is one and has no partner? He cannot have any types. I do not understand what those types of prophethood are: metaphorical prophet, real prophet, law-bearing prophet, and non-law-bearing prophet. It is a strange thing that they want to eat an animal. So, they create an interpretation for it and consume it as permissible. So, sir! I personally believe that there is no dispute in this regard whether he was truthful or a liar (according to their own beliefs). What I understand is as clear as day and there is no contradiction in it. Mirza Sahib claimed prophethood. God will go and decide whether that prophethood was correct, up to standard, or not. But we, in our view, believe that after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), no person, in any form, and in any way, has the right to say that I am a prophet. Revelation descends upon them, strange thing. They amend the book, rather a verse of the Holy Quran in which it is stated, probably a Hadith Sharif or a verse of the Holy Quran which during the cross-examination was clarified in which were the words "before me and after me". I do not know whether these words are from Hadith Sharif or a verse of the Quran in which it is said neither before me nor after me, "The series of prophethood is finished." The "after" part has been removed. It has been mentioned in the book. Similarly, sir! Look at another way. These people have built a mosque and written on it "La Ilaha Illallah Ahmad Rasool Allah." We were happy that we had caught their weakness. When they were cross-examined, they probably started saying that it is a script. I am surprised when the same script is prevalent openly all over the world and that is "La Ilaha Illallah Muhammad Rasool Allah (PBUH)", then why did they specifically use some script? So, all these things indicate that in their intention mischief is certainly present. You tell me, if the same mosque remains, and the progress that is happening in religion these days is in front of your eyes, people mock God, people They make fun of the Prophet. Even in this era, I believe that people are not as complete and perfect in their method of worship as they should be. After fifty or sixty years, the same mosque will become the foundation of a great discord. In the same way, sir, I am completely sure of this. I also want to warn this esteemed house about this danger, I want to warn this honorable committee that like the Israelis, Ahmadiyyat is also a very big discord. When the British started this discord, we do not say that Mirza Sahib or Nasir Sahib's knowledge is in any way less. Scholars are educated people. I believe that only those who have knowledge and command of the book can do this kind of manipulation. The method that Mirza Sahib started, as a result of the efforts of those minds, their basic purpose was only one: to create a discord among Muslims, to create a discord. Those who have now become the status of Israel, remember this, this is a matter of consideration and a place to think. Today you cannot erase Israel from history. The entire Islamic world is on one side, you see all the Arabs are on one side, standing in line against Israel, but today they cannot erase Israel. When the discord of Israel arose, it was also of the same nature, it was also in the same position. They had no place. Today Rabwah has acquired the same status. You see the place when the Israelis demanded their state. Their initial form, the initial form was only this and only this. They have already made lengthy statements and lengthy interrogations to end this discord. I do not want to add anything more to this, but I will definitely request through you that we have ways to separate them, to highlight them. There is only one procedure for us to amend the constitution. The amendment should only be in these words: that all the people who belong to the Ahmadi sect, or those who consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet in any way, in any way they give Mirza the status of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), they are non-Muslims, they are not Muslims. They should not be given the status of Muslims. Sir, I understand that as you have stated, there is no doubt that it will have harmful effects. Such a large, organized sect, which we will separate and give the color of a faction, will openly work against our country. This is true. But at the same time, you should consider how quickly they are apostatizing Muslims. Go and see in the world, all the missions that exist in the name of Islam, you go to any part of the world, all the missions that exist in the name of Islam are those of Ahmadis and Mirzais. These people are working there. Inside the country, outside the country, if their pace continues like this (may God prove this wrong), I fear that in the very near future, weak-minded Muslims like me, who are fully aware of and familiar with their religion, may lose their religion and a time may come when their majority becomes twice or thrice as large as our current majority. So, sir, to end this sedition, this kind of amendment in the constitution is extremely necessary. I think there should be no negligence in this. I would also like to submit one more thing to you. I wanted Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sahib to be here so that I could make this request in front of him, and... asks. For God's sake, the issue of the Mirzais is very clear. After acknowledging this matter, arguing with them or saying that there is room for it or not, leave it. But the material they presented before this House is a huge stain on our scholars, such a big charge. I think to get rid of this charge, this stain, they should come before their public. I have read your, meaning Mufti Sahib's, answers. The long dictionary in which he had gathered all his knowledge, I have seen everything, I have read it. But nowhere a glimpse of those charges, of their facts which they presented here, God knows whether they are true or false. Even if they are false, I accept it rationally. Now you have not refuted it. So what answer do I have? Should I say that their arguments are wrong which are about your internal sects? How big a thing it is that 660 scholars, about whom the Mirzais have said in their statements and interrogations regarding the Deobandis, they have said about the chosen followers of the Prophet (peace be upon him), including Hazrat Abdul Qadir Jilani (may God have mercy on him), including Hazrat Khwaja Gharib Nawaz (may God have mercy on him), including Hazrat Junaid Baghdadi (may God have mercy on him), after prophethood if in this country... Sahibzada Safiullah, point of order. Mr. Speaker! I would like to submit that there is no need for him to say such things. Those resolutions are before the committee and this is the statement of Mirza Nasir Ahmad. The discussion should be on that, not on the statement that Maulana Mufti Sahib has read from our side. If this happens, the purpose of these statements will be defeated and this series will not end. Sardar Inayat-ur-Rahman Khan Abbasi: No, no. I repeat. I am performing my duties. I have said the main thing, let me speak. This should come on record. I think this... Sahibzada Safiullah: There is no benefit in this, nor is this the topic under discussion. It is not appropriate for a member to stand up and say that there is this flaw and that flaw in your statement. This is an irrelevant discussion. Sardar Inayat-ur-Rahman Khan Abbasi: There is a lot of benefit in this. Mr. Chairman: A debate does not start here, that he will answer them. You will answer them, and they will answer them. Our discussion should be confined to the Resolution before us; not that one is Sunni and one is Shia. We should not talk against any sect. That is not relevant. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Sir, does this mean that Muslims should line up... Mr. Chairman: Please sit down. I have said the same thing. I am sorry. This is not relevant. Sardar Inayat-ur-Rahman Khan Abbasi: Mr. Chairman, Sir, please listen to me. Mr. Chairman: I will not listen. We are not here to throw mud at each other; the only thing to debate is to declare them a minority. Ch. Jahangir Ali: Sir, this is not throwing of mud. Mr. Chairman: This is not relevant. Sardar Inayat-ur-Rahman Khan Abbasi: This is on record. Mr. Chairman: I cannot agree... Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi: I leave this. Mr. Chairman: I cannot agree to this principle. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman! Whatever evidence has been presented before this committee, the purpose of the discussion is actually for the honorable members to express their views on the evidence that has come before this house, in light of the resolutions under consideration. But if any honorable member wants to comment on something that is already on record, I don't think it is appropriate for another member to object to it. Mr. Chairman: I cannot agree to this principle. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Sahibzada Safiullah Sahib's objection is completely wrong. When Mirza Nasir Ahmad was making similar accusations, did he raise this kind of point of order at that time? Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi: I am not saying that. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Sir! We did not want this kind of material to come on record. We sat here with great patience and controlled our emotions and listened to these things from Mirza Nasir Ahmad and Abdul Mannan Omar. We do not mean, God forbid, that such a thing should happen in this house that causes chaos. In any case, if any honorable members want to refer to the statements of the witnesses in their speeches, I think this kind of restriction should not be imposed on it. Mr. Chairman: I am not in a position to agree. Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi, let's go, it's rolling, it's Mr. Peaker's. I only In this regard I will say, I do not want to go into details. We who are Muslims. We are familiar with religion. The appropriate answer is that our scholars should bring it in the form of a pamphlet in front of this house and guide us. Colonel Habib Ahmed: I want to submit in the point of order that at this time The speeches that have been made and the gentlemen who are expressing their position, all of them will come out in the form of books and it will be greatly propagated all over the world and Our future generations will read it. This is a positive record and will last till the Day of Judgement and no history or anything in the world can erase it. And we were also expecting Chaudhry Sahib and many of our other friends have tried to point out here But our scholars who are present here, the clerics who have more Islamic knowledge than us, we are ready to admit this. But No one made a point of order here or pointed it out in any other way I, despite my limited understanding, had pointed out that he had said here That if there is a scholar sitting here who knows Arabic. He will understand that in Arabic, what is the meaning of "zer," "zabar," and "pesh," and how the meaning can be changed. This was a big challenge for our scholars But none of them stood up. I want to submit that in their response... Mr. Chairman: The point of order has been presented, please sit down. Colonel Habib Ahmed, the speech that Abbasi Sahib is giving is very reasoned and convincing. Now I say that it will also come on record. This is history and QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2713 It is an Islamic history. Then why were the arguments they gave here not discussed? Why weren't their positions, which were extremely dangerous, and their answers published in book form? Because my son and his son, generations of our generations, will also read them, they will read the statements of our scholars, so what image will they present in their minds? For example, I say that what Abbasi Sahib said is correct. Several of our friends are sitting on this side, they pointed this out at the time, but nothing came of it. And our Advocate General Sahib did such a standard advocacy that there is no example of it. In my opinion, he is more knowledgeable than me. But I wanted our scholars to have this kind of discussion so that we would also know. I am a Sunni, but God is my witness, if we are Sunni, we say that we are Sunni. This is my own opinion. Mr. Chairman: Colonel Sahib! Let me say something, listen to me too. This matter will be relevant when Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sahib and any other Honorable Member have two beliefs. One is their political belief and the other is their religious belief. When they bring a resolution regarding religious beliefs that Maulana Mufti Mahmood's religious beliefs are not correct, then this would be correct and then this discussion will be relevant, but I think they are fighting among themselves that Shia has written this about Sunni, and Sunni has written this about Shia. It appears that this discussion is not relevant. They should not try to prove Shia and Sunni; they just want to prove their case; that is the evidence which they adduce in respect of their claim. All the sects are unanimous so far as the Qadianies are concerned. This is on record. All the schools of thought are unanimous. We are sitting here to determine the status of Qadianies, not to talk either against the Shia or Sunni or any other sect. 2714 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep, 1974 Sahibzada Safiullah: I want to submit that the statement made by Colonel Sahib, that nobody answered it, actually, Colonel Sahib probably doesn't remember that the Chairman had announced that during the cross-examination of the witnesses, except for the Attorney General, nobody would give an answer or speech. Mr. Chairman: I am responding; that is over. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Sir! I would like to submit that... Mr. Chairman: That is over. Abbasi Sahib! Begin. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Sir! This will be recorded that the scholars did not respond to Nasir. Nasir Ahmad denied the definitive matters; Nasir Ahmad evaded every point. And it was decided here that only the AG Sahib would ask questions, and it was also decided that no one except the AG Sahib would ask questions. But whatever Nasir said was all wrong. Mr. Chairman: Your rebuttal of 260 pages has arrived. Abbasi Sahib! You give your speech. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: You yourself restricted the scholars, restricted all the members, that no one except the AG Sahib would ask questions (Interruption). Now they say that it will go on record all over the world, and there it will be that the scholars could not respond. Nasir Ahmad is all wrong, and Nasir has denied everything. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Sahib, please be seated. Any disagreement with Maulana Mufti Sahib, sitting here as a Special Committee... Maulana Sahib, I do not want to make it a controversy. We are... Nobody will be allowed to make political profit out of it. You say something. This is not relevant. Think a little. We are not here... to debate Brelvi and Whabi. We should not take the debate on that side that Maulana Mufti being hit or Dr. Bokhari. Certain Member do not like it. Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi: That is finished and you have given the ruling. The matter is finished in the ruling now. Do not repeat it again and again. Mr. Chairman: This is not relevant. Please continue. Sardar Inayat ur Rahman Khan Abbasi: Mr. Chairman! This matter is finished now. I was requesting that I want to bring this matter under discussion that both sects have personally accepted this and after their acceptance, I think that we should draft a resolution for this sedition in which Ahmedis, whether they are in any sect, who believe that a prophet can come in any way after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), should be declared a non-Muslim minority. Thank you. Mr. Chairman Rao Khurshid Ali Khan Sahib! Rao Sahib, your signature is also among the 37 members, I am not checking, now I will get less time. Rao Khurshid Ali Khan: Mr. Chairman! I am grateful to you that despite this, the reply has been given by 37 members. Miangul Aurangzeb: On a point of order Sir. The honorable member has the ear-phones on. He cannot hear. He should take it off. Rao Khurshid Ali Khan: All right. Mr. Chairman: The point of order is upheld. It is a valid Point of Order. You may take it off. Rao Khurshid, yes. Rao Khurshid Ali Khan, the thing is, I don't want to keep saying my own thing and not listen to others. Mr. Chairman: His point is valid. You cannot record your speeches. Rao Khurshid Ali Khan: I won't be able to hear whatever you order. Anyway, the ruler's command is a sudden death. Anyway, I was saying that the issue that the Qadiani gentlemen and the Lahori party and, besides that, our respected scholars, from Maulana Hazarvi, from Maulana Mufti Mahmood, has presented, has been listened to with full attention. Whatever things have been said, we have listened to them very carefully. I won't say that I have been coming exactly on time every day, but I think I haven't missed it completely. Some days I have been coming late. But I have listened to each and every thing every day without fail. And the information I have from before, in the light of that, whatever I will present, that will also be included in it. This issue is of great importance, not only because it is related to our religion, to the safety of our country, but if I say this, it would not be out of place that it is also related to the survival of this country. It has great importance. If we fail to fulfill our duty in this matter, then not only will Allah not forgive us, but the coming generations will also not forgive us. We should show great thoughtfulness, with full deliberation, without any fear or greed, knowing God to be present and watching, purely from an Islamic point of view and from the point of view of the safety and survival of the country, we should consider it, otherwise I am afraid, Mr. Chairman! About the afterlife... It might take me some time, although there is no guarantee that, God forbid, some accident may befall us the next moment. Just recently, I have come back from a brief tour of my constituency. Included in my submissions is the information I obtained directly by making a short tour of my constituency. Sir, in this regard, I would like to submit that the attitude that these Qadiani gentlemen and the Lahore party have adopted regarding the finality of prophethood, and their claim of a false prophethood, is such a great crime that it cannot be forgiven. They have created such a big divide and such great discord within the Ummah that if such discord had not been created, it is very possible that the disunity that is visible in the Ummah today would have been greatly reduced, and we could have faced the whole world in a better way. As far as this country is concerned, it has now become a land of crises. It was already facing crises, and now this further crisis has been created, and at this time, the immediate cause is also created by these troublemakers. God's wrath, such a small minority and it has the audacity that it attacked our students. Obviously, such a small minority cannot have this courage and हिम्मत on its own. It has been done at someone's instigation. This is a conspiracy against the country, and Mr. Bhutto, in my opinion, has rightly said that this seems to be a part of an international conspiracy. Therefore, it is of great importance, and we should review it with full deliberation. Sir, in this regard, I want to explain a little bit of the background, from which I became fully convinced, apart from other things, why these people are wrongdoers and why their claim of prophethood is false and why the meanings they have given to the finality of prophethood are wrong. Mr. Chairman! As you know, when the Mughal rule ended in the Indian subcontinent, when it declined, and the British occupied it, it was a delicate stage. The scholars of truth assessed that the Muslim rule had ended, and a rule of infidels had come into power. Since Islam is a complete religion and has provisions for everything, and it emphasizes the spirit of Jihad so much that if we hold on to it firmly, Muslims cannot be enslaved. At that time, the founders of this movement, Syed Ahmad Shaheed Barelvi and other gentlemen, who led this movement, organized it to such an extent that they carried it from Bengal to the Frontier and the rest of the tribal areas, and people from Bengal, Patna, and Bihar went there and fought with the Sikhs in Peshawar and other areas, and in this way, they nurtured this movement. The entire emphasis was on the fact that a Muslim cannot be subjugated, a Muslim cannot be enslaved, and if a Muslim faces slavery, he should sacrifice everything - body, mind, wealth - under the spirit of Jihad and live a life like a free-spirited man. Slavery is a curse for him. As a slave, a Muslim is no longer a Muslim, and he cannot fulfill the obligations of Islam. This was such a big issue that it became a big puzzle for the British. The British wanted to stabilize their rule, but on the other hand, people of this kind, I would say, unarmed people, who had no property, no specific resources, but the wealthy people, it has come in history that they obtained fatwas from Mecca and Medina from scholars who were idolaters, egoists, and self-serving. They also got wrong kinds of fatwas from here, from hundreds of scholars, against Jihad and in favor of the fact that peace had been established during their rule. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2719 There is no harm in obeying them. But despite this, the people running the movement were not influenced by these edicts, but some wealthy people fell for these false edicts and they accepted the British government to some extent. But the common people, the hungry and naked type of people, full of the spirit of Jihad, watered this movement by cutting their stomachs and provided it with money and provided it with broken weapons, and in this way, the British were silenced. I don't want to go into more detail, I just want to say that this stage was when the British felt the need to get hold of someone who would declare this matter of Jihad invalid because it has silenced us and it does not allow stability to be created within our government. At that time, there was a need for such a personality who would declare this Jihad as forbidden, and when Jihad is declared forbidden, that's it, the Muslims will then fall into extravagance. He will neither fight for Islam nor sacrifice for the country and the nation. Then whatever infidel, irreligious person wants, if he rules over him, gives him property, then he keeps ruling. So, when this form was created, then their eyes fell on Mirza Qadian. Hunter is a very famous personality of the civil service. Everyone knows that he has written a book "Indian Muslims". All the details of these things have come in it. He has pointed towards this. When this situation arose, Hunter himself admitted that all the decisions we had taken from the scholars had failed. Shah Waliullah Sahib or Shah Abdul Aziz Muhaddith Dehlavi, who took part in this Jihad and thus advanced the movement, were themselves remembered by Hunter Sahib with the word "prophets." 2720 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (2nd Sep, 1974 is so that, slowly, it is instilled in the minds of Muslims that a great ascetic can also become a prophet. In this way, gradually, Mirza Qadian (whose details you have all seen, there is no need to repeat them) claimed prophethood from a small stage, and the two biggest things he did were: the annulment of Jihad and the misinterpretation of the verse "ولي الأمر منكم" (Obey God, the Messenger, and those in authority among you), that is, "from among you." So these Qadiani people, who are masters of distortion (as Maulana Hazarvi Sahib has also provided proof), they have swallowed "منكم" (from among you) and misinterpreted the verse to mean that whoever is the ruler, even if he is an infidel, should be obeyed. They have emphasized these two things the most. Now, in this matter, it is obvious that a Muslim has a book in the form of the Holy Quran, in which no one can make any alterations. Whoever does make alterations is caught, punished, and the Holy Quran is protected until the Day of Judgment, and Allah has taken the responsibility of its protection. In its presence and in the presence of authentic hadiths, Muslims cannot be convinced that Jihad can be abolished or that they can remove "منكم" (from among you) from "ولي الأمر منكم" and remain slaves of every infidel and irreligious government. After that, Mr. Speaker! Now the last thing I want to say is that from the submissions I have made, it is clear that this plant was cultivated by imperialism itself to serve imperialism, so that division could be created in the Muslim Ummah and the unity and solidarity of the Muslim Ummah could be destroyed, and a blow could be struck against the solidarity of Islam. Now, finally, as you said that a proposal should be presented for the solution of this problem, then the proposal, sir, is that until both groups of these Qadianis, QADHANI ISSUE-VENEREAL DISCUSSION If those of Rabwah and Lahore are not declared a non-Muslim minority, the problem will not be solved; rather, God forbid, God forbid, God forbid, such a crisis may arise within this country that it will become very difficult to control. We are already facing many crises, and now we should not invite any new crisis; otherwise, we will be our own enemies. Religiously, as I have already stated, the unity of the Ummah will remain intact, and division and disunity will end. Politically, by declaring them a non-Muslim minority, these Qadianis who are occupying key positions in the name of Muslims and who are firmly entrenched will have to relinquish them; they will be deprived of them. And now they are dreaming of a unified India and are after the security of this country, and God forbid, they want to break it and then want to return Qadian. By declaring them a non-Muslim minority, both these objectives can be achieved, and this is my suggestion, and I appeal to the entire House through you, Mr. Chairman, that they should definitely be declared a non-Muslim minority. It is in the interest of the country and the nation, in the interest of Pakistan, in the interest of the entire Muslim Ummah, and we will avoid another crisis. Mr. Chairman: Dr. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: I seek refuge in Allah from Satan, the accursed. In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Muhammad and We seek His help and may God bless the noblest of prophets and the Seal of the Prophets, Abul Qasim Muhammad, with his pure family and his sincere companions. Mr. Speaker! Today's topic is very sensitive, and I will try my best not to overstep my bounds anywhere, but my heart bleeds when we see that those who have struck devastating blows and those who have wielded the axe of madness have chosen the palm tree, the tree upon which this... Mr. Chairman: I would request the honourable speaker that, instead of words it should be matter, because we are concerned with the matter, the substance. These words, these beautiful words can be used tomorrow as well, the day after tomorrow as well. Today it should be matter. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bokhari: Sir! I'm coming to that, where do I get dirty words from. You probably don't like my words, but what can I do, consider it a flaw of my language. Mr. Chairman: Everybody can understand. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bokhari: May I be permitted to continue? Mr. Chairman: You are permitted to continue. Come with proposals. [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi)] Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bokhari: Madam Deputy Speaker, with your permission.... Madam Acting Chairman: Yes, you can continue. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bokhari: So, I was saying that those who wielded the adze, those who wielded the axe, the thing on which they wielded the axe, the thing on which they wielded the adze of their hypocrisy, that itself was the offshoot of the Prophet ﷺ about which the Holy Quran has said, O my beloved! If I had not created you, I would not have created this universe. With the impudence and with the audacity with which attacks have been made on the honor of the Prophet ﷺ, Madam Speaker! I have a little... I want to shed some light on this in brief. I am sorry, perhaps my point of view is wrong, the aspect from which the Quranic Imams and divine knowledge should have highlighted it, perhaps still the status of Prophethood ﷺ and the sanctity of Prophethood ﷺ have not been highlighted in the assembly debate. Until it is explained what the status of the Seal of the Prophets is, what the status of Prophethood is, what the status of Messengerhood is, Mr. Speaker! It is impossible to determine what a false prophet is and what his status is. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Point of Order. Mr. Speaker! This respected Abbasi Sahib is giving a very good speech, but in this one sentence he has said that it is in the Quran that "O Prophet! If I had not created you, I would not have created this entire universe." This is not in the Quran. "Lau Laaka Lama Khalaqtul Aflak" (If not for you, I would not have created the universe) is also weak in narration, but the meaning is correct. It is not in the Quran. I mentioned this so that no one would object. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: The Qalandar possesses nothing but the two words "La Ilaha" The city's jurist is a Croesus of Hijazi languages. The wise do not get entangled in the midst of words, The purpose is concerned with the pearl, not the shell. Mr. Speaker! I move forward, emerging from this quagmire of point of order. Respected Acting Chairperson: But he has corrected you, you should accept that. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: Okay, I move on. So, I was talking about the status of Prophethood. It is not my place to determine the status of Prophethood, nor do I have that much knowledge. I am neither a mystic, nor a reformer, nor a traditionist, nor a jurist. I do not know what the status of Prophethood is. But with my limited understanding, in the mirror of Quranic verses, Mr. Speaker! I have seen the status of Prophethood, and I will present it in this House. Incidentally, I would like to submit that this self-cultivated plant of the British wanted to strike a blow to the heritage of Muslims, in two ways. One direction was Jihad, which is called Qital in the Quran, and from which the brave British were always afraid. And the second direction was the love of the Prophet. The British knew that the love of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is such a measure, such a center, such a center of gravity that if it remains in the hands of Muslims, then Muslims will always remain on this face of the earth as a strong and stable Ummah. To protect its empire in which the sun never set, which stretched from east to west, the British had this intention, they made this policy, and this was the condition at that time, the circumstances that existed, the political situation at that time, according to which the British thought correctly in their own minds. In addition to this, Mr. Speaker! Another thing happened. Mahdi Sudani rose up in the name of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and waged Jihad against the British. In the same century, at the end of the fourteenth century, the British became apprehensive that the majority of Muslims believe that the Promised Mahdi will come, so perhaps the real Mahdi may also come. As a prediction, they prepared a fake Mahdi, as I will prove with my argument that why this Mahdi was fake. The way these people have attacked the glory of the Holy Prophet on the occasion of Eid Milad un Nabi is intolerable. No Muslim who has zeal, who has honor, in whom even a single legitimate drop of the blood of sincerity remains, cannot tolerate their boasting. The crow has the illusion of superiority over the nightingale. The slave claims prophethood. Idols desire divinity. This is a glimpse of Your grandeur. What have these false prophets said? And before saying this, did they know their place? That in what waters do they stand, what is their context? Therefore, a philosophy was crafted that The glory of Prophethood should be diminished so that the glory of false prophethood increases, until it is equal to it. They may come, evolve through miracles. The glory of Jesus (peace be upon him) was diminished, to the extent that the slanderers slandered him. God forbid, the tongue does not allow saying that their grandmothers and great-grandmothers were like that. And why was this done? Why was Jesus (peace be upon him) attempted to be proven of unknown lineage? Mr. Speaker! The Holy Quran is a law of Allah which is a universal law, which is a universal and eternal law, an eternal law, which can never die. That law is that a prophet is never of unknown lineage. The lineage of a prophet is always clear and in the world. Whatever generations of man flow, the prophet among them is of the noblest blood, the noblest tradition, the purest blood, a member of the purest family. He gets this reward, he is considered worthy of it. The height of lineage. Mr. Speaker! This is also proof, and this is also a reward. People of unknown lineage cannot receive this reward. As I will now prove from the verse of the Holy Quran. These people, to support their false prophet, struck with an adze, they struck at lineage, because they did not have their own lineage. See, in "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya" he says that he has been inspired that he is of Persian descent. That is, they don't even know whether they are of Persian descent or not, even after having claimed prophethood. They took recourse to inspiration to establish a blood connection. The truth is that it was a Mongol generation, it was a Tatar generation, it was a generation of looters from the Gobi desert, it was a generation of nomadic Turks. They were neither purely Hashemites nor of Arab descent. They knew that I do not belong to the family of Sadat, I am not of the blood of Banu Fatima. That is why they resorted to great inspirations. Now, listen to their absurdities on which I am basing my entire argument. They say that the mental evolution of Hazrat Masih Maud was greater than that of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) because there has been a lot of progress in this era and this is a partial virtue that Hazrat Masih Maud has over the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). After that, he says that it is absolutely correct that every person can progress and attain the greatest degree, even surpassing the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). This is Diary Khalifa Qadian, Al-Fadl, July 17, 1922. And after that he says that he did not move the shadow prophecy back but moved it forward, that he stood side by side with the Holy Prophet, but even surpassed him in some virtues. Kalma-e-Haq, written by Mahmood Ahmad Khalifa Qadian. Mr. Speaker! I will not go into the debate of what a Buruzi prophet is and what a Zilli prophet is, and what its shadow is. I just want to tell one thing. They have based their prophethood entirely on the fact that every human being, every sinner and every imperfect and every unintelligent human being, whenever he wants, at whatever time he wants, can progress on the basis of his asceticism, his knowledge, which is very limited, can progress to become a Mujaddid, can become a Muhaddith. Well, anyone can become a Maulvi. He can also become a Muhaddith who is honored not with Hadith but with divine words. He can become a Qutb, he can become a Ghaus, he can become an Abdal. This is their own. The effort was right. Sir! After that, he says that growing and progressing, he can even step into the ranks of the prophets (peace be upon them), he can become the promised seed, and then moving forward, he can even surpass the prophets, to the point of being two, four, ten steps ahead of the dignity of the Seal of the Prophets. Esteemed Sir! According to the Quran, this is the belief of a mentally deficient person. The Quran does not accept this. Therefore, there is a verse in the Holy Quran, which I will translate, and Maulana Hazarvi Sahib will forgive me if I make a mistake somewhere. I am stating the meaning that We took a primordial covenant from the souls of the prophets. And, O Prophet! We appointed you as a witness over them, We appointed you as a testifier over them. For this, the words that have been used in the Quran are "Mithaqi Ghaleez." We took a very strong covenant. Respected Mirza Sahib! Begging complete forgiveness from your soul, I will say that you were a participant in this covenant. Are the covenants of God Almighty such that they become unknown? God Almighty took a promise, the One who took the promise. Mr. Speaker! God Almighty made a primordial covenant with the souls that were to give the promise even before the creation of beings. Adam was still in the state of clay and water. Who was present? The distributor of destiny, the one who creates livelihood, the Sustainer, the All-Pure, the Holy, God, the Praiseworthy and Eternal, the One who takes the promise, the One who gives it, souls are the witnesses, the presence of Prophethood is radiant, where did these unknown people suddenly appear from, who did not even know for forty, forty-five, or fifty years what their status was. Whether they are even in the realm of humanity or not, they did not even know this. Where were they at the time of the covenant? Or say that the Quran is wrong. Say that these people are liars. We move forward to what Allah Almighty's method is in the appointment of prophets and in the sending of prophets. And this is also absolutely the command of the Quran that Allah Almighty does not change His way. 2120 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 1400 sp., 1974 does. Mr. Speaker, there is no change in the Sunnah of Allah Almighty. He has always been and will always be, because indeed, Allah does not break His promise. Allah does not go against His promises, He never breaks His promise. Come! Let us examine it in the Divine Book and its mirror of perfections. In Surah Maryam, we will see how prophets come, what the minds of prophets are, what the psychology of prophets is, how prophets pray, what the promises of prophets are, how prophets are sent. Why don't we look at the Quran? The book is present. See, in Surah Maryam, I will only read the translation. Mr. Zakariya prayed that Lord, grant me from Yourself an heir who will be my heir and the heir of the descendants of Jacob. Madam! This is because prophets look towards the future, their eyes are on the coming generations, and they are clear. They are neither mentally deficient, nor timid, nor is their mind clouded. Rather, it is illuminated by the light of the Almighty God. Past, present, and future, these states hold a secondary position before the prophets. And it is like a coin in the palm of the hand. Allah Almighty says, "O Zakariya! We give you glad tidings of a boy whose name will be Yahya, and We have not given anyone before him the same name." Look at the commitment of prophethood. The name was hidden by the power from the lineage of Adam, from the progeny of man, that I am giving this name to my prophet. This is what the Quran is saying. O Lord! Mr. Zakariya says, "How will I have a son when my wife is barren and I am at the height of old age?" He said, "Thus it is, your Lord says, 'That is easy for Me.'" O Yahya! Hold the book firmly. And We gave him understanding in childhood. It is known that the prophet comes with understanding in childhood. He does not remain ignorant for fifty years, he does not remain unaware of his position for fifty years. And further ahead He states, The Book of God bestowed a special heart and purity from Himself, and Mr. Katy was very pious and a doer of good to his parents, and was neither rebellious nor disobedient. Further, honorable Speaker! What is the status of the Prophet in the language of the Quran? He is not even born yet, and the divine word is coming. Peace be upon him the day he is born, and the day he dies, and the day he is raised alive. The universe, the creation of the universe, salutes the Prophet, both on his birth and on his departure from the world. Now, honorable Speaker, just imagine that Mr. Zakaria, peace be upon him, gets a child in old age after praying. A child comes in an extraordinary way. Why does it come in an extraordinary way? Was there no one else in the world who would first become a Maulvi, then a Muhaddith, then a Mujaddid, then a Faqih? Who would progress and attain prophethood? Was there no one left on earth to pray? Honorable Speaker! My argument is strengthened by this. Nature protects lineage. A prophet cannot come without the adherence to lineage. Now, observe the adherence of power. I want to present something about the sanctity of Mary. It is stated in Surah Maryam in the Quran that an angel appeared before the holy Mary and said, "I am a messenger of your Lord, to give you a pure boy." She said, "How can I have a boy when no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" The angel says, Honorable Speaker! He said, "Thus it will be; your Lord has said, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter decreed.'" And honorable Speaker! Further, the Book of God Almighty states, this is a translation of the Holy Quran by Maulana Abdul Majid Daryabadi, and then she came to her people carrying Mr. Jesus, peace be upon him, and they said... 2730 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN O Mary! You have done a grievous thing. O sister of Aaron! Your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother unchaste. Then Mary pointed towards the child. Mr. Speaker! Now that child speaks. I wanted to bring my discussion to this point, how does a child speak in the mother's lap or in the cradle? She pointed towards the child. Mr. Jesus said, not from his cradle, first they ask how can we talk to a child who is still a newborn baby in the cradle. Upon this, Mr. Jesus said, I am a servant of Allah, He has given me the Book and He has made me a prophet and He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined upon me prayer and charity as long as I live, and He has not made me rebellious and wretched. And peace be upon me the day I was born and the day I die and the day I am raised to life. Mr. Speaker! These verses are for contemplation. The Holy Quran invites to reflection, the Holy Quran invites to contemplation at every step. Tell me, what was the need for the Almighty, the Creator of Nature, to arrange for the child to speak in the cradle? The mother does not answer, and the child answers. Your Excellency! It appears that حضرت عیسی علیہ السلام came and is saying that he has brought the Book and brought the Message. It is known that he is not honored with the Message when he is born, he is not there to stumble over ignorance. The Divider of Eternity, the Eternal Destiny, the Judge of Destiny honors him with prophethood from his mother's womb, rather from the Day of Eternity, and sends him. These souls are different, these species are different. These are not the people who climb the ladder. These are not the people who get education in schools. These are not the people who are discussed for fifteen rupees of clerical work. These are not the people who write to the Kaiser-e-Hind, "O owner of my life and property." These are not the people who are fed on the stipends of strangers. The Prophet is nurtured by God Almighty. His protection is done by Providence itself. Several Members: Very good, very good. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: Mr. Speaker! In this regard, I would like to further submit that it is the tradition of Allah that the Prophet comes with a book. A prophet is not born a prophet. Here, I ask a question to those friends who say, God forbid, who say that the Holy Prophet was, God forbid, God forbid, not a prophet for forty years, while there is a Hadith Sharif: "I am the first worshipper." This was said by the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). How can he be a worshipper? Mr. Speaker! Come to the Quran. Mountains worship, trees worship, the universe worships. So, the meaning of "the first worshipper" is that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) worshipped even when no beings existed. A prophet is a prophet even when beings do not exist. I want to take a step further. [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali).] Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: May I have permission, sir! Mr. Speaker! Regarding the mention of Abraham, the divine command is: "So We granted him Isaac and Jacob, and each of them We made a prophet, and We bestowed on them Our mercy." Mr. Moses (peace be upon him), the same law of nature has been going on. The law of God is one. Regarding Mr. Music, the divine command is: "And We bestowed on his brother Aaron the status of a prophet out of Our mercy." We gave Abraham (peace be upon him) Isaac and Jacob, and We made each of them righteous. And We gave Lot (peace be upon him) knowledge and wisdom. And We subjected the mountains to David (peace be upon him), and the birds used to glorify with him. We admitted Ishmael (peace be upon him), Idris (peace be upon him), and Dhul-Kifl into Our mercy. Indeed, they were among the great righteous people. Mr. Speaker! Similarly, in Surah Ahzab, this matter was written in the divine decree: And that time is also worth mentioning when We took a covenant from all the prophets, that is, the prophets, and from you as well. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, son of Mary, and We took from them a firm covenant, a solemn oath, so that those children may be questioned about what is between them. Mr. Speaker! From the authority of the Quran, it is proven that prophets are created from the Day of Eternity, prophets are made from the Day of Eternity, prophets are made in the realm of souls. Maulana Abdul Mustafa al-Azhari: Point of Order, Sir! He is repeatedly saying "Mr. Speaker! Mr. Speaker! Mr. Speaker!" I think at this time "Mr. Chairman" would be more appropriate. Several members: It was not heard. Maulana Abdul Mustafa al-Azhari: I am saying that repeatedly, our Bukhari Sahib is saying "Mr. Speaker! Mr. Speaker!" He should say "Mr. Chairman." This is appropriate. He is the Speaker, but at this time he is the Chairman. And anyway, "Mr. Chairman" is more appropriate. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: Thank you. I am grateful to you. In Surah Ash-Shura, there is a divine command: Allah has ordained for you the same religion which He enjoined on Noah, and which We have revealed to you, and which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, that is, to establish this religion and not to create division in it. And after that, in Surah Al-Imran: We gave preference to the family of Abraham and the family of Imran over the worlds. Your Excellency! This is the rule, this is the way, this is the Sunnah of Allah. The family of a prophet is never unknown. The lineage of a prophet is never unknown. Those people with unknown lineages who... After that, false claims of prophethood were made, this is proof of their falsehood. I want to say one thing here, sir! If we accept, even for a moment, that ignorance occurs at any moment, then sir! Ignorance is oppression, and no prophet can commit oppression, because Allah Almighty says that My covenant does not reach the oppressors, it cannot reach them at all. These are two rewards. Covenant and reward are the same thing. It is a covenant of reward. It cannot reach the oppressors. No, he can neither lie, nor be ignorant, nor can a prophet be mentally deficient, nor can a prophet be lost from his place, nor can a prophet commit any sin, big or small. Therefore, sir! Because if the prophet does this, then how will he guide anyone? How would Khidr tell the way? If the fish says, "Where is the river?" If a prophet says where guidance is, such and such time was without guidance, such and such time is with my guidance, it becomes very difficult. What remains of the sun's shine, If it is disgusted with its own ray? A prophet is never disgusted with his own ray. He is the trustee of the light of God. He is the mirror of God's perfections. Your Excellency! Now we talk about our master of the universe, the esteemed source of messengership, Muhammad ﷺ. Beauty of Joseph, breath of Jesus, white hand you possess, All the goodness that all possess, you alone have. Proof, your Excellency! is nothing, it is a vain thing. It is a favor, it is not won in the race of a horse race. God forbid, we seek refuge in God, may dust be in my mouth, it is not a race cup that can be won like Mirza Sahib. It cannot be won, it is bestowed. Your Excellency! In this context, I want to mention what has been clarified. It is the matter of the Mahdi. I want to conclude my point briefly. The discussion will become lengthy. So much is written about the signs of the Mahdi in books, books that still guide us today. In the unanimously agreed-upon books of the majority, Your Honor, the qualities of the Mahdi are written very clearly. I want to mention only one of their qualities and conclude my discussion on it. Abu Dawood narrates from Umm Salama that the Mahdi will be from the descendants of Fatima and from the progeny of the Holy Prophet. A very authentic book that I have named, Abdullah Ibn Masood, the river of knowledge - narrated in Tirmidhi and Abu Dawood, that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) says that the Mahdi will have the same name as me and indeed he will be from my progeny, he will be from my family. When he comes, he will fill the earth with justice and fairness. After that, there is the narration of Abi Ishaq. Indeed, the Mahdi will be from the descendants of Fatima and will resemble the Holy Prophet in character, habits, and appearance. Your Excellency! Countless references of this kind exist, proving that the Mahdi will not be of unknown lineage. How can a person who has not been able to prove his family to this day, whether he is Persian, Iranian, Turk, or Mongol? Where did he come from, where did he come from? Which planet did they pick him up from, in which rocket did they bring him here? He does not know himself, what will he tell others about himself? Your Excellency! Here, I want to present a hadith that clarifies all disputes very clearly. I have brought the references of this hadith. If the scholars want to see these references, then I will give them to them, God willing. I will present it to the assembly. The references are very long. It is not possible for me to repeat them all here. QADHANI 15SUD-UDNDAAL DISCUSSION The Hadith of Thaqalayn is this, it has countless narrators. It has been narrated by approximately four hundred companions. This Hadith is mentioned in approximately seven hundred and fifty books of Sawad-e-Azam. It has even gone beyond comprehension. Perhaps so authentic and reliable Hadith has rarely been seen. All those people who have narrated it, Mr. Ali, belong to the second, third, fourth Hijri. I will translate the Hadith: "I am leaving behind two weighty things among you, that is, the Book of Allah and my progeny, my family, and my Ahl al-Bayt. If you hold fast to them, you will never be misguided until the Day of Judgment. Indeed, these two will remain together until they come to me together at the Pond of Kawthar." Your Honor! As I have read from previous references, the Mahdi will be from the progeny of the Messenger. This Hadith of Thaqalayn clarifies the progeny of the Messenger. While keeping the discussion short, I would like to present two or four references. After that I will submit and ask this question that if the progeny of the Messenger were not from Ali, if they were of unknown descent, then the very foundation of their Prophethood... Mr. Chairman: Short Break for fifteen minutes for tea. We will reassemble at 12:15p.m. The Special Committee adjourned for tea break to reassemble at 12:15 p.m. The Special Committee reassembled after tea break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair Mr. Chairman: Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari! Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: Mr. Chairman! I was talking about Hadith al-Thaqalayn, in which I presented my point of view that no prophet or Mahdi can come unless he is from the progeny of the Messenger (PBUH), and Hadith al-Thaqalayn does not apply to him. I submitted to you that I have brought many references so that I can present them in support of my claim, and gentlemen! I will present these references with some pride that perhaps so many references have rarely been gathered for one hadith. After reading four or five references, I will submit this office of references to you so that it remains a record here, and those friends who want to see the authenticity of Hadith al-Thaqalayn can satisfy their taste and my point can reach the stage of proof. Destroyers of Hadith al-Thaqalayn. Syed bin Masrooq Al-Sumai Sin, died 126 AH. The narrator who is a companion is Zaid bin Arqam. References: Sahih Muslim Rukn bin Rabi' bin Al-Amila, died 131 AH - Companion Zaid bin Thabit Reference: Muslim Ahmed Dhabal Abu Hayyan Yahya bin Saeed bin Hayyan. Died 5145 AH - Reference: Muslim Ahmed Hanbal Sahih Muslim Abdul Malik bin Abi Sultan. Died 145 AH. Companion narrator Abu Saeed Al-Khudri Muslim Ahmed Muqbil - Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Asa Al-Madani. Israel bin Yunus Abu Yusuf Al-Koni. Abdul Rahman bin Abdullah bin Uqba bin Masood Al-Khee. Muhammad bin Talha bin Ma'araf Al-Aani Al-Koni. Abu Ghabana wa Zahab bin Abdullah Al-Ashari - Shareek bin Abdullah Al-Qadi. Similarly. Mr. Chairman! There are countless references. It contains the names of at least four hundred companions. There are references to five hundred, six hundred books. Gentlemen! The purpose of my saying this is that I am summarizing my entire discussion, concluding. With reference to Quranic verses, we come to the conclusion, gentlemen! that: (1) The Prophet is noble on both sides. VALIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2737 (2) The lineage of the Prophet is clear. (3) Ignorance never befalls the Prophet. (4) It is essential that nature itself protects and obeys the Prophet. (5) The Prophet exists in the mother's womb and the father's loins. (1) Prophethood is divinely inspired, never acquired. One more thing, Your Honor! Let me clarify here, it is stated in the Holy Quran: (Arabic) The Noble Prophet does not speak of his own desire, except by divine revelation.) Your Honor, there is a difference between speech (Nutq) and discourse (Kalam). Discourse is that in which the tongue utters words with some meaning or some sequence. But Your Honor! Speech (Nutq) is what is meaningless as well. For example, I say roti roti (bread bread), pani wani (water water), jana wana (go go), so the nonsense in it is also included in speech (Nutq), even the scholars have said this, Sir! Snoring while sleeping is also speech (Nutq). According to the Quran, even the Prophet's speech (Nutq), Your Honor! The Holy Quran has declared it as divine revelation. If we apply this context to the context of that prophet who came in this era and created discord and division among the Muslims and presented false revelations and false dreams in the guise of true dreams and spread misguidance or deviation, we can measure it with the same scale. So, Your Honor! It becomes clear where the truth is and where the falsehood is. That is, the truth has come and falsehood has gone, surely falsehood is bound to vanish. After that, Sir! The eighth sign of prophethood is that the Prophet is never unknown or ambiguous. The ninth sign of it is that the birth and death of the Holy Prophet, or any prophet, is always fortunate and blessed. Tenth, its sign is that its lineage is from the knowers and the recipients of blessings. If the father is a prophet, or the grandfather is a prophet, or the maternal grandfather is a prophet, or the mother is a truthful woman, or the grandmother is a truthful woman, meaning there is a chain of the pure, the infallible, and the recipients of blessings that continues. Without it, a prophet does not come. This is against the law of the Quran, it is against the law of nature. I will mention another interesting point, incidentally, which is also a sign of a prophet, that if any bone of a prophet's body becomes exposed under the sky, clouds appear at that time, and rain falls. I will present 32 hundred references for this as well. When a prophet's bone became exposed and the bone came out, rain came, a storm came, until that bone was covered again. The perfect voice cannot tolerate that the bone of his pure being is desecrated. The rain of mercy always hides it. I am not saying that the bone of a false prophet should be taken out and the spectacle of the rain of mercy should be watched. But I can present it as proof. After this, regarding the series of prophethood, I will submit that it is also a Quranic declaration that the prophecy of a prophet is received long before. Even at the time of Hazrat Ibrahim, thousands of years before, the prophecy of Janab Namoos Musa was given. The prophecy of Janab Isa Imran was given, and the prophecy of the Holy Prophet Muhammad ﷺ was given. Your Excellency! One more thing that is proven to us from the Quran is that a prophet cannot be proven a liar after his death, or a prophet cannot be proven a liar after his argument is complete. If they prove him a liar and he is in reality a prophet, then punishment will surely come, as it came to Hazrat Noah (peace be upon him), Hazrat Yunus (peace be upon him), Hazrat Lut (peace be upon him), Hazrat Hud (peace be upon him). Either they will have to accept him or punishment will come. If they escape. i There was a prophet who used to say in a time that, "Leave it, do not talk about the dead Ali. Leave it, do not talk about the dead Hussain. Shall we not bring this clarification, this argument that, "Leave it, do not talk about the dead Mirza Sahib. He also became an old dead man, what is there to mention about him. Neither did punishment come, nor guidance came, what kind of prophet is he." Your Excellency! In any case, I want to present another point here in terms of the Quran, and incidentally, I would like to mention that I have come across another reference from Mishkat Sharif, Abu Dawood, and Tirmidhi, that in the investigation, the Messenger of God, peace be upon him, said that the Mahdi will in any case be from the family of the Messenger and the descendants of Fatima. And after that, the next narration is from the Hadith, that Jesus will come to the aid of the Mahdi. The Mahdi will rule for seven years, global rule, and will fill the earth with justice and equity. There will be no needy or oppressed person. Hazrat Isa will remain for forty years. I want to ask these claimants of prophethood whether there is no one in need on earth. Have human problems ended? Is justice being done? Are wars not happening? Have global wars not been fought since the time of their advent? They used to say to stop Jihad. Tell me, has Palestine not been looted? Has Jerusalem not been destroyed? What all has not happened? What calamities have befallen the Islamic world. They said that Jihad is not necessary. So when will they do Jihad? Will they do it after going to the graves? Where has justice come? Where has global rule come? Where has the earth been filled with justice? Your Honor! This has not happened either. From this thing too, it is proven according to the Hadith that these prophets, whether they were manifest or shadow-like, whatever they were, were false prophets. After that, your honor! I present a reference from Allama Mahmood Al-Sarim of Egypt. He says that there is no such thing as Buruzi and Zilli (Shadowy) Prophethood. Neither has any Buruzi prophet ever come, nor will any Buruzi prophet ever come. Neither did a manifestation (Buruz) of Abraham come, nor any manifestation of the family of Abraham. Neither did any manifestation of Ali come, nor any manifestation of Hussain. Neither did any manifestation of Siddiq come into being, nor did any manifestation of Farooq come into being. And what kind of manifestation will come? This is the belief of Zoroastrians, this is the Hindu way. This is the issue of transmigration of souls, the issue of history, and this is the same person who can present it, who is ignorant of mind, ignorant of understanding. And I will mention one thing here that has not been taken into the discussion yet. No, this twentieth-century prophet said that Mahdi and Isa (Jesus) are both combined in this one personality, whereas, your honor! It is proven by continuous tradition, it is proven by Mutawatirat (mass transmitted reports) that Mahdi has a different personality and Jesus has a different personality. These will be two separate personalities. Their signs will be different. When Jesus comes, he will descend from the sky, he will land in Damascus, his hands will be on the shoulders of angels, he will be wearing two yellow sheets, he will be of red and white complexion, he will kill Dajjal (the Antichrist), he will lead the morning prayer, he will defeat the Jews, he will abolish the Jizya (tax on non-Muslims), he will perform Hajj, a man will answer the call of pilgrimage from the valley, he will get married, Muslims will participate in his funeral, he will be buried in the Prophet's shrine. Jesus, son of Mary, will be the Spirit of God and the Word of God, he will break the cross, he will kill the pig. Has the pig been killed? Has the cross been broken? Was he the Word of God? Was he buried in the Prophet's shrine? Your honor! This is a disturbed psychology. This is such a psychology that only God can handle. This was a very big disorder. This was a very big conspiracy against the Muslim world. This It was a very big, heinous game. I say with certainty, God willing, I say in this house that I am ready for Mubahala (religious debate/ordeal) in this house with all Mirzais (Ahmadiyya Muslims) that come, let us curse each other. Bring your sons, we bring our sons. Bring yourselves, we bring ourselves. Bring your women, we bring our women, and let us curse each other. I am ready for this Mubahala. (Desks banged) Mr. Chairman: This is not within the jurisdiction of the Assembly. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: Mr. Chairman! While concluding my point... Mr. Chairman: The honourable members may clap their desks, but this is not right to have 'Mubahala'. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: I will give reference to a Hadith. Mr. Chairman: I think, now you should conclude. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: From the issue of the finality of Prophethood... Mr. Chairman: You need not go into this because the Assembly is unanimous that the Holy Prophet was last of the Prophets, because almost the House has given its verdict on that. We are here to determine the status of Qadianis. That is all. Whatever you have said, there was no need of saying that. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: Mr. Chairman! I am grateful to you. In the end, perhaps my topic has become bitter. To reduce this bitterness, Sir! Let me tell you the story of a fictional prophet. A prophet came to the outer court. He said, "I am a prophet of God, believe in me." Babar said, "Okay brother! We will believe, tell us, what is your miracle?" He said, "I will tell you now." Babar said, "Show us the miracle of Ibrahim Khalilullah. We will throw you into the fire of Nimrod, throw you into the oven of fire. If you survive, we will believe." He said, "Sir! Those were prophets of old times. Are you talking about old-fashioned things? This miracle is old now. Ask for a fresh miracle." Babar said, "Okay brother, fine, bring the staff of Moses, bring the shining hand." He said, "Sir! These things are very old now. Leave it, ask for a new miracle." He said, "Okay, let's see the miracle of Jesus. Yes, I will show you now. I will cut off the Prime Minister's head now and put it back on now." The Prime Minister said from outside, "Sir! I have believed in this prophet without having my head cut off." Sir! This prophethood is very easy. Gentlemen! This is the prophethood of these people, this is their logic, that they diminish the glory of the Holy Prophet ﷺ. They have come to hear a joke. Mr. Chairman: That is all. We are not sitting here for jokes. You are taking pleasure. Mian Muhammad Ataullah! Do you also want to give a speech? Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: Sir, I want to present a suggestion. I will finish by presenting my suggestion. Mr. Chairman: Say whatever you have to say quickly. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bukhari: Mr. Chairman! I propose that in view of all these arguments and proofs, although I have made these points briefly, I propose that... that this sect should be declared a non-Muslim minority. Their literature should be confiscated. Their preaching, which is spreading discord and delusion, should be stopped, as it is contrary to the Quran and Sunnah. The misleading division and discord of this sect should be prevented in every way, and may the prayers of the Holy Prophet ﷺ be with us. *(Persian couplet)* Sir! It will be very burdensome if we do not protect the honor of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ. Thank you. Mr. Chairman Mian Muhammad Ataullah. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Correct, proposals, that will be appreciated. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: The issue that is currently under discussion before the Special Committee has been under consideration for almost two months. Various proposals and motions have also been presented regarding the Rabwah Qadiani Group and the Lahore Group, whether they consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet, as the Promised Messiah, or as a Muhaddith. Detailed discussions have taken place with them in this regard. They have read out affidavits before the Special Committee, and the members have asked them approximately three to four hundred questions. I believe that as far as their beliefs are concerned, and as far as their beliefs about other Muslims are concerned, as far as their political ambitions are concerned, and as far as Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim is concerned, as to why he made this claim, I understand... That all members should clearly know by now and do know. Now the question remains that all the people living in Pakistan and all Muslims are unanimously demanding that the group that certainly considers all of us outside the circle of Islam and whose position is that whoever believes in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet or as the promised Messiah or as a Muhaddith or as a Mujaddid, he denies the commands of Allah Almighty, he is a disbeliever and outside the circle of Islam. Now all the Muslims living in Pakistan are demanding that this group should be declared a disbeliever, they should be considered outside the circle of Islam. I understand that this issue is a preliminary thing and leaving all the complexities aside, you should not go into any complexity, only one thing, one argument is enough to declare them disbelievers that they consider us disbelievers and they consider 700 million Muslims who belong to the Ummah of the Messenger of Allah belong to, whether they belong to any sect, whether they are Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahl-e-Hadith, Shia, or belong to any other sect, they unanimously consider them outside the circle of Islam. I think this issue is settled, there is no room for doubt in it. This is a separate matter. The members of the committee also know that a group declares them disbelievers. And it depends on their own thinking, their own separate way of making decisions. Now the question is what is the solution to this problem in the current situation and how can it be solved from the current situation. As far as the political ambitions of this group are concerned, all members are clearly aware that this group was formed by the British and for this reason that after coming here, the British saw that until from within the Muslims There was no spirit of Jihad; the British could not rule here in peace. Therefore, they devised a way to extract Muslims from this problem: to create a false prophet who, claiming prophethood, would tell Muslims that Allah Almighty has commanded them to cease Jihad. Because a clear command from Allah Almighty existed explicitly in Hadith and the Holy Quran, and the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also stated that if anyone attacks the autonomy of Muslims, then Jihad is obligatory and mandatory. And since the British had attacked the autonomy of Muslims in India and occupied it, it was the unanimous decision of all the scholars and all the Muslims of India that Jihad should be waged against the British and they should be driven out of India. So, to end this problem, a political-style organization was formed, given a religious coloring. After that, the question of the creation of Pakistan arose, and those beliefs had already been presented to all the members, that we are in favor of a unified India. Even if Pakistan is created, it will be temporary, and we will make every effort to merge Pakistan back into India. Then they said that the group that gets a strong base in India, nothing can stop it from dominating the world. And then their other beliefs… I did not know at the time that I would be asked to speak, otherwise I would have brought those books and presented them to you. Mr. Chairman: I have given you time when you present proposals, not to give a speech. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: I will present it in the proposal. It is clear from these beliefs that Mirza Mahmood Ahmad said that if we had power or if we had a government, then we would have... They would bring all people to their beliefs by force, even more than Mussolini. This is clearly written in their books, and they adhere to it. Now, consider that in the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, we have stated that whether someone is a Muslim or a non-believer, Hindu, Sikh, Christian, or belongs to any religion, they will not be coerced, nor do the Quran and Sunnah allow us to coerce. Preaching is allowed, to preach and explain to people. If they accept those beliefs, then it is correct. But this group, whose belief is that if they come to power, they will forcibly bring people to their beliefs, they come to the assembly and still say that they are not a political party, but a religious sect. They are related to religion, not to politics. I believe that in the current situation, there is only one way to stop this discord, and that is to declare this group as a political party, ban it, and confiscate its literature, because a political party that is using religion to achieve its political goals and is trying to create discord in religion and is deceiving Muslims, nothing will be gained by simply declaring them infidels because they will continue to try their best to achieve their goals in the same way. One thing that I understand has clearly come before our special committee is that they are currently going abroad and doing a lot of wrong kind of propaganda. And I think that whatever decisions the Chairman makes should be published immediately after the decision so that the answers they have given here and the things in which they have clearly been proven to be liars should come before the whole nation and the whole world should know about those things. They should be presented to the people. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2747 In the end, I would just like to say that in my opinion, our committee should decide that whoever does not believe Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be the last prophet is a disbeliever and is outside the fold of Islam. And I think that the person who claimed prophethood in India from 1891 to 1908 should be named as a disbeliever, and those who believe in him in any way are disbelievers. And the group he formed should be declared a political group, and their literature should be confiscated. The properties they have built here should be taken over by the Auqaf Department and should go under the control of the government. Mr. Chairman Chaudhry Jahangir Ali. Ch. Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman, Sir, I will like to speak tomorrow. Mr. Chairman: In the evening. You are doing more service than Shab-e-Barat! If you give two or three hours in the evening, I will be grateful to you, because we might not be able to meet one day. The Prime Minister of Ceylon is arriving at eleven o'clock on the 4th, so the members will go to the airport to receive them in the evening. Then on the 5th, they are addressing the joint session. Tomorrow evening is the Walima of the President's son, where many members have to go. There is a Steering Committee again on the 4th. Attorney-General will address on the 5th morning. Everything should be completed; that is why I have made a request. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Sir! I will take very little time. Mr. Chairman: I request for the evening. Two or three other gentlemen have also asked me. Mr. Abbas Hussain Gardezi will be addressing in the evening. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Sir! I will give the speech tomorrow. Mr. Chairman: Dr. Muhammad Shafi, Mr. Ali Ahmad Talpur, nothing to add? You have signed. Randhawa Sahib in the evening and Chaudhry Barkatullah Sahib! Malik Suleman Sahib! Evening is fine. Ghulam Farooq, nothing. Sardar Aleem is the which; he will speak last of all. Yes, Begum Nasim Jahan. Begum Nasim Jahan: Mr. Chairman! Acknowledge my patience. Mr. Chairman: Dr. Bokhari wanted to prove that Masih, when he will come, will be a Syed. You should try to prove that he will be a woman. Begum Nasim Jahan: Yes I know. Acknowledge my patience. In the record, women were abused so much, about them So many bad things were said, but since the majority decided that we should not speak a word, Speak through the Attorney General, I kept quiet, did not stand up. I The questions that I gave to the Attorney General, those questions were also rejected by the committee. After that, Mr. Chairman! You know that I raised this objection that in the Constitution Committee There are no women members, so that was also not considered appropriate. Women have been abused so much. Mr. Chairman: Begum Shireen Wahab was a member. Begum Nasim Jahan: No, Sir! Begum Shireen Wahab was a member of the Steering Committee, she was in the Constitution Was not a member of the committee. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Mian Muhammad Attaullah: Point of order. Sir! I assure Begum Sahiba, since I also happen to be a member of the Kitchen Committee, other members were also present there, they will also testify that absolutely no disrespect was done to the women, no abuse was given, absolutely no indecent word was used with respect to women. Begum Naseem Jahan: Let me finish my point. Sir! I asked four or five questions about women, which were not considered appropriate by the Kitchen Committee and were rejected. I now want to put this objection on record that these questions were to be rejected by the Kitchen Committee and those questions were not liked by the committee in any way. Women are your sisters, wives, mothers, grandmothers, and great-grandmothers. Mr. Speaker! Appreciate my patience, I did not utter a word from my mouth, and even now I have stood up because you have called. Considering this objection of mine to be absolutely justified, I say that if the record of the disrespect of women ever comes out, no woman will tolerate it. With this objection, I sit down. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: Sir! I want to submit that the members whose questions were not included were invited to the Steering Committee so that they could satisfy themselves. If respected Begum Naseem Jahan had so much sympathy for women, then why didn't she attend the committee? I was present in the committee. The Chairman of the Steering Committee called her name several times, but she was not present there, so her complaint is not justified now. ANNA MOANA NODEMOLI VE TANI LAN [2nd Sep, 1974 Secondly, sir! It is that the Coochin Committee was elected by the Rahbar Committee itself, in which there was representation of women. Thirdly, I have been present in the committee here. No dishonor has been done to women here, but rather an effort has been made to restore their honor. Whoever has told them has told them wrong, and Begum Sahiba has been misunderstood. The members of the committee have always kept the honor of women in mind. Begum Naseem Jahan: Sir? Mr. Chairman: Wait a minute. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: Why are you so worried? There was women's representation in the Rahbar Committee. It is our duty to respect women. Women are our sisters, mothers (the honorable one also said wives in the heat of the moment). Begum Naseem Jahan: Sir! I also have something to say. I did not know that there was any difference between the Cookchen Committee and the Rahbar Committee. I thought that these two were the same, so I thought that Begum Shireen Wahab was present in the Rahbar Committee, she is representing, God willing, everything will be alright. Mr. Chairman! My record is witness that I protested in the whole house that our questions have been rejected in the Coochin Committee. The record is witness to the fact that I attended this special committee daily and listened to every single thing with full attention. Even today I am not feeling well. I have a fever, the doctor has told me to rest. But I have come to listen to the words of my brothers, Professor Ghafoor Ahmed Sahib was my old colleague in the Constitutional Committee. Now we are together in the assembly as well. I have great respect for him. I had given those four questions. But they were rejected. The witnesses who had come to the committee, the bad things they said about women, the Attorney General should have stopped them. I couldn't protest. It was you people, the majority, who decided that we should remain silent. I couldn't raise any objection. But my brothers, who were members of the Sachin Committee, it was their duty to object if they did not want the women to be insulted. Once again, I say that women are your daughters, your mothers, and your wives. And the status of a woman as a mother is higher than that of men because paradise lies under her feet. Therefore, it was the duty of those members, who were our respected representatives, who were members of the Coochin Committee, to remove this Coochin. But still, Mr. Speaker! I sat until ten o'clock at night, with my mouth completely shut, not even getting up. But my brothers have objected many times. Respected Professor Ghafoor Ahmed also raised an objection, and respected brothers also raised objections, but I did not. I speak on time. Today you called me, and I spoke. But even now, I say that I want to bring my point of objection on record, and God willing, it has come on record through your mediation. Mr. Chairman: Ladies, please sit down. I apologize to you that women could not get representation. But the thing is, the Coochin Committee had only five members out of twenty. There was women's representation in the Steering Committee, and that representation was being done by Begum Shireen Wahab. So, the rest of the question of abuses, everyone endured them. Women are our honor, our daughters, our sisters. But everyone has been enduring abuses here. If you separate yourself from the general body of Muslims, then your complaint is justified, but when everyone was being cursed without dots, you are not separate from us. If you are part and parcel of us, you should also have the patience of hearing the abuses. Begum Nasim Jahan: Mr. Chairman! We are also a part of the Muslim community. Mr. Chairman: If you want to be separate from the general body of Muslims your complaint is justified. Listen to me, please. Begum Nasim Jahan: Mr. Speaker! I respect you. God forbid, if any indecent words ever come out of my mouth, I don't want to see that day. I am telling you that we have never considered ourselves separate. How separate questions have been asked about women, and from whom they have been asked. I can even tell you these questions and also tell you the answers. I can also show you the affidavit where our mention has come with reference to some place. If you want, I can present you with so many references where women have been separated and abused. Mr. Chairman: No, no. The ladies are part and parcel of us. Begum Nasim Jahan: We say that we are part and parcel. We are a part of the Muslim community. But you are separating us based on these questions. Mr. Chairman: No, they are part and parcel. Shahzada Saeed-ur-Rasheed Abbasi: Mr. Chairman! I would like to submit that you had decided here. Mr. Chairman: That is all. I don't need to bring it on record. Mian Mohammad Attaullah: ... to inform Begum Sahiba, through you, that we disallowed all questions concerning Muhammadi Begum and the Attorney-General did not put that question. Only in the Mahzar Nama of Maulana Abdul Hakim he brought out this matter and he dealt with it at length. Begum Nasim Jahan: Mr. Chairman, Sir, my question did not concern Muhammadi Begum, Now I am forced that my revered collegue does not even know what question I asked. Mr. Chairman: I am sorry, I apologise. Begum Nasim Jahan: Sir, let us clarify this point. My question did not concern Mohammadi Begum. I will now tell you what my question was. Sir, before you, I raised the question that the witness _ and this answers our friend on the other side _ raised the important point. I will speak in Urdu. The witness's stance was that since the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, did not have any male children and had female children, spiritually the female children were his... could not be made for the message of survival. That is why we needed a male spiritual prophet. On this, I had asked four or five questions. Five questions were asked: was Maulana Muhammad Ali a member of your sect? He did not believe that a woman also gets revelation. I had presented verses of the Holy Quran in this regard. I had questioned this because their base is this and they do not give women their due place from the beginning. And they also mention U.N. Human Rights. But they do not say that women have been given equal rights in it. God forbid, God forbid (we seek refuge in God from that) because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had a female child, therefore, she could not attain a spiritual position. Based on this, I had questioned. There was no mention of Muhammadi Begum in these questions. I am not the kind of person to get involved in these things because I disagree with the basic thing and that is that according to the Holy Quran, men and women have equal rights. Mr. Chairman, Ataullah Sahib, if you have anything else to say, please do. Yes, if there is any other point, any other clarification, you can say it. Mian Mohammad Attaullah: One word will make half an hour speech, Sir. Mr. Chairman: You can clarify your position. Khawaja Ghulam Suleiman Taunsvi Sahib! Do you have to say anything on this topic? Khawaja Ghulam Suleiman: Sir! I will give it in writing. A lot has been written. It will waste time on it. Mr. Chairman: Okay. Give it by tomorrow. So, nobody is prepared now. So, we will meet at 5.30 in the evening. Thank you very much. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2755 (The Special Committee adjourned for lunch break to meet at 5:30 p.m.) [The Special Committee met after lunch break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Should we start? Maulana Abdul Mustafa al-Azhari! I have that book with 37 signatures, those members who have signed, they should only speak for five to ten minutes. Maulana Abdul Mustafa al-Azhari: Very well. Mr. Chairman: These members who have signed are bound by two choices, either to submit in writing or orally. There is no restriction on those who speak orally. Okay, Maulana Abdul Mustafa al-Azhari! I will request the honorable members to be attentive. Maulana Abdul Mustafa al-Azhari: Respected Chairman! This debate, in the context in which it is going on, there has never been any doubt about the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, being the Seal of the Prophets, meaning the last prophet, and the Muslim Ummah has always known this issue with certainty. But here, for the past few days, the Mirzais have presented their arguments and articles, and during the cross-examination, it was repeatedly mentioned that revelation came to Mirza Sahib. And after that, they also said that he was a prophet, a messenger, but an "Umati" prophet. Such things kept coming up. In this regard, I will discuss three or four topics. L130 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep, 1974 The first thing is that the word "Wahi" (revelation) is used in the Holy Quran in several meanings. The original meaning of "Wahi" in the Arabic language is a secret signal, a hidden signal, and in this respect, this word is used in the Holy Quran in the meaning of signal, as it is about Hazrat Zakaria (peace be upon him) that he came out and said to his people. (Arabic) That you glorify Allah morning and evening. He gestured to this. In this way it is in Surah Maryam. (Arabic) That he gestured. Sometimes the word 'Wahi' also comes in the sense of inspiration in the heart, such as (Arabic) That We revealed to Moses' mother, although the Holy Quran itself has told that no woman can be a prophet. This was stated by the Holy Quran itself. Despite this, it is mentioned. In the same way, the meaning of Wahi is to put something in someone's heart, like (Arabic) Allah revealed to the honey bee. Rather, there is also mention of divine revelation upon the heavens and the earth. But all things are called Wahi in terms of literal meanings. Mr. Chairman: You have also started the dictionary! It is very difficult to get rid of it here. I asked them a question. Now let the dictionary go. Tell me what are the general impressions of a Muslim. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: This is a scholarly matter. Mr. Chairman: This scholarly matter should have come in it. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Listen in this way. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2757 Mr. Chairman, no sir, I will listen in the same manner as the book is, as the signed book is, otherwise your signatures will be cancelled. Whatever explanation is there, it has been done. Now you talk about these resolutions. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Mr. Chairman! I am submitting that as far as Prophethood and Messenger-ship are concerned, Allah Almighty has associated His special servants with it. Allah says: (Arabic) Allah knows best whom to make His Messenger. And Allah Almighty said that We sent revelation to you as We sent revelation to Noah and the prophets who came after him. In the same way, it has been said in the Holy Quran for Muslims: (Arabic) That Muslims are those who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before. It is known that after the beloved of Allah, Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, there is no continuation of the revelation. And this thing has been told by countless verses of the Holy Quran, as it has been written in the book before. There are many verses which describe this topic. So, the revelation of prophethood can only come to a prophet, not to a non-prophet. However, the scholars have stated that when Hazrat Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, will come to the world, since he has already been a prophet, all Muslims know this thing that prophethood can never be abrogated, when he will come to the world, when he will descend from the sky, then his prophethood will not be abrogated. But at the time of coming in the era of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, he will be a non-legislative prophet. The meaning of this is that the action 2758 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep.. 1974 They will act upon the Sharia of Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), as it is said in another Hadith: If Musa were alive. (RA) He would have no choice but to follow me. So this meaning is taken by the scholars of a non-legislative prophet. So it is not that someone stands up and claims that I am a non-legislative prophet. This is a deception of Mirza Sahib and those who believe in Mirza Sahib's prophet-hood. Even now, Muslims have not been able to, nor can they, allow any kind of prophethood to be given to anyone after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Mr. Chairman: The rest, God willing, in the next meeting. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari, listen to my request, why are you getting upset? After all, the whole day is left. It will continue tomorrow as well. Mr. Chairman: No, no, you have already given it in writing. There is a difference between you and others. You have already given all the arguments in writing. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: I gave it in writing. Mr. Chairman: That is not the point. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: One example was that a Muslim should not be called a Kaafir (infidel). Mr. Chairman: If we start answering examples, it will take ten days. In ten days, new problems will arise. Talk about this resolution. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: I will speak about this resolution. We have said in the resolution that those who hold this belief are infidels, they are not Muslims. In this regard, many times here, Kr. Naser and those who came after him have also stated that No, we are Muslims, we cannot be infidels in any way, because once a person becomes a Muslim, disbelief cannot come upon him anymore. After that, he tried to prove it with some verses of the Holy Quran and hadiths. This verse of the Holy Quran is that if someone meets you and says 'As-salamu alaykum' to you, then you should not call him an infidel. In reality, Nasir has deceived here. The original verse is not the one he has presented. Rather, I present the original verse so that this issue becomes completely clear. I present its translation. The verse is: O you who believe! When you travel in the way of Allah, be careful and do not say to those who greet you, 'You are not believers,' seeking the goods of this worldly life. This should not happen. In the end, He said that before, you were the kind of people who would kill people to loot their wealth. After embracing Islam, this is not permissible. "Fatabayyanu" - this was said in this verse in two places. It happened that a Bedouin was walking along. He had goats. He passed in front of the Muslims and said, 'As-salamu alaykum.' The Muslims thought that he was an infidel and wanted to save his goats by greeting them unnecessarily. They killed him and snatched the goats. This verse of the Quran was revealed about this, that if someone greets you on the way, do not consider him an infidel, but rather think and consider him well. And it should not be that in the greed of wealth, you kill a man by calling him an infidel, even though he is a believer. It is not said here that whoever says 'As-salamu alaykum' is a believer, but it is said that you should think and consider in this matter. From this, it is known that it is not merely the case that whoever says 'As-salamu alaykum' becomes a believer, but rather one has to consider his circumstances. And after considering the circumstances of the Mirzais and all the books, it has become clear that they believe in prophethood after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), therefore they cannot be Muslims. Secondly, he presented a Hadith that Mirza Nasir Ahmad presented incorrectly. You can see his words. It states that if someone calls someone else a disbeliever, he himself becomes a disbeliever. The Hadith is not like that; rather, the words of Muslim Sharif and its meaning are: (Arabic) Whoever calls another person a disbeliever, one of the two becomes a disbeliever. Another narration of this Muslim Sharif is: (Arabic) If the person who called the other a disbeliever, if he is indeed a disbeliever, then it is correct; otherwise, it will return to him. This is certain. That is why scholars, the righteous, prophets, and the Chief of Prophets himself, and even the Holy Quran, have stated this about those who were Muslims first and then became disbelievers. There are countless verses of this kind. Here, I have only written eleven verses: (Arabic) Many people say that they believe in the Day of Judgment and Allah Almighty. Allah Almighty says that they are not believers. Just because someone says they are a believer does not make them a believer. Rather, it is stated here: They were Muslims first, then they disbelieved: (Arabic) (Arabic) If disbelief continues to increase, then their repentance will not be accepted. There are countless verses of this kind in which it is stated that a person is a Muslim first, then becomes a disbeliever: QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2761 (Arabic) Those people uttered words of disbelief. They were believers before, then became disbelievers. If a person utters a word of disbelief, he is certainly a disbeliever if he does not repent from it. All the Muslims of the world believe in this, even the Mirzais themselves said, although they said a wrong thing, but they said that if someone is fully convinced and then does not believe, he becomes a disbeliever. Whereas we were all Muslims. Obviously, they did not say this. What have they taken the meaning of "completion of love" to be? Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: It was said here by the delegation that if anybody recites 99 times 'Kufr' and there is only one ingredient of Islam, he is not a 'kafir', if he has said anything which is Un-Islamic. But it was said here if 99 times he does anything contrary to Islam, but one ingredient indicated that he is Muslim, 'kufr' does not in any way come on him. I will request this also be explained for me. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Very good. I was submitting that they have said that whoever is fully convinced, whatever meaning they have taken from it, and then denies it, becomes a disbeliever. Mr. Chairman: Maulana! The rest of the speech in Lal Masjid. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: I have told what Soomro Sahib has said. Mr. Chairman: Then this series will never end. Bhatti Sahib will object, then Haji Sahib will ask something else. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: If a person has 99 reasons for disbelief and one reason for faith, he is a Muslim, the jurists have not written this. This is nowhere to be found. Rather, it is said that if a person says something, and 99 reasons for disbelief emerge from that statement, and one reason for Islam emerges... 2762 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep., 1974 is a conversation. If 99 interpretations are made after that, all of them will be disbelief. There is a disbelief in which there is Islam. This saying will not be called a disbeliever. This is the meaning. It is not in the conversation that if a person becomes a Muslim once, then he becomes stronger than iron and mountain. No matter how much disbelief he does, even if he keeps cursing Allah and the Prophet ﷺ, it does not mean that he will remain a Muslim. Since the President is not feeling very safe with my speech, I end the speech. Mr. Chairman: That is why I have requested that the rest be in Lal Masjid. Everyone can go there. Here I will listen to those first who cannot go to Lal Masjid. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: We are not entering into these intricacies. Shahzada Saeed-ur-Rasheed Abbasi: Mr. Speaker! In the morning he raised a point of order that you are not addressed as Chairman. Now the President himself is saying it. Mr. Chairman: There are certain admitted facts. Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Mr. Chairman! Mr. Chairman Bhatti Sahib! You after them. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: Mr. Speaker! My speech is ten pages long. Therefore, if I am not interrupted, the continuity will remain. Mr. Chairman: You start, God willing, only two pages will be left out of ten. Now read one page and get the rest cyclostyled. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All praise is due to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, and blessings and peace be upon the Seal of the Prophets and Messengers, our master, our prophet, and our absolute messenger, and the one who guides us to the path of truth, and our intercessor on the Day of Judgment, Abu al-Qasim Muhammad al-Mustafa, and upon the good and pure ones, truly the honorable and esteemed ones. To proceed: Allah the Blessed and Most High has said, and His word is the truth: "O you who have believed, fear Allah as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims." (Surah Al-Imran, verse 102) Allah Almighty has said to all believers in the Holy Quran that after believing, adopt piety completely and be sure before you die that you are Muslims. The literal translation of God's command is: "O people! Those who have believed, fear Allah with the fear that is due to Him and do not die except as Muslims." This message is for all of us who believe that the Holy Quran is the last heavenly book. The bringer of this message is that truthful and trustworthy Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his family) whose blessed name God Almighty has taken thus: "And Muhammad is not but a messenger," and Muhammad is not but a messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his family, and in another place Allah says: "...So, Muhammad was not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets, and Allah has always been All-Knowing of everything." (Al-Ahzab, verse 40) In the first verse, the status of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, has been determined, and in a miraculous way it has been said that "Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is only a messenger," and in the second verse, this is repeated and it is added that Prophethood ends after him. You are the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets. Along with this, it was said that Allah has always been great in writing, in every matter. He had knowledge of all the matters and problems of human beings' past, present and future, and still does. He made this decision for the welfare of mankind. He revealed the last book by giving his Messenger the "Holy Quran" through revelation, in which there is knowledge of everything, dry and wet. And He told us that my Prophet does not speak of his own will and desire. When he speaks, he speaks from my revelation and my sign. "By the star when it descends, your master, your companion, has neither strayed nor erred. He does not speak of his own desire. It is only a revelation that is revealed." This innocent and highly esteemed Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, conveyed all the commands of Allah to mankind without any deficiency, and fully implemented all the commandments. Such an act which the Holy Quran stated in its authenticity: "Indeed, in the Messenger of Allah you have an excellent example." The life of the Messenger of Allah is an excellent example, and when the Holy Prophet brought a complete system of life... When the law of human welfare was conveyed, then the verse "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion." Today I have perfected your religion for you and completed my blessings upon you and have approved Islam for you." These verses of the Holy Quran prove: 1. The religion was perfected and completed in the time of Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Allah's blessings were completed and Islam as a religion is Allah's favorite religion. 2. We are commanded to live and die on the same religion of Islam. 3. Allah's last messenger and the last of the prophets is the same whose name and noble name is Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). 4. The example of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is worthy of following and can be followed. Now if someone considers someone other than the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as a leader and considers his method better than the good example of the Prophet, then he is a denier of the above facts. According to him, neither is Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the last messenger, nor is the Holy Quran the last book, nor is the religion of Islam of Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) a perfect and complete religion, nor does he want to die on this religion. Calling such a person a Muslim is an insult to Islam, an insult to the Holy Quran, and an insult to the Holy Prophet, the Seal of Religions, the Seal of the Messengers. Based on this, Islamic scholars have called such a person a disbeliever, and in our opinion, whoever believes in a prophet after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and considers any book to be a book of divine revelation is as infidel and impure as other polytheists and infidels are impure. Neither is it permissible to shake hands with him, nor is marriage with him permissible, nor is it right to live with him. Our mujtahids agree on this. Hazrat Shaheed Salis Qazi Nurullah Shustari has started "Ihqaq-ul-Haq" the belief of Prophethood with these words: The first is about the prophethood of Muhammad, may God bless him and his family and grant them peace. Know that this is a great foundation in religion, and it is on this basis that the difference between a Muslim and a disbeliever lies. (Ihqaaq-ul-Haq, Volume 2, Page 190, published in 1388 AH) The first discussion in the topics of Prophethood is the discussion on the Prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa, may God bless him and his family. Remember that this is a great foundation of religion. On this basis, the difference between Muslim and disbeliever is established. To believe in Muhammad Mustafa, may God bless him and his family, as a Prophet and Messenger means, in the words of the Holy Quran, "Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, abstain from it." On this basis, the Muslim's declaration and his first creed is "There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah." And in it, we declare to close the way for any further claimant of Prophet and Messenger. Ali is the friend of Allah and the successor of the Messenger of Allah. Mr. Chairman: I request that the rest be cyclostyled and distributed. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: In my opinion, sir! Let me read. Mr. Chairman: Only one page has been read so far. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: A little is left. I am reading so quickly. Mr. Chairman: Our faith is very strong. This is for those with weak faith. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: There are very important things ahead. Let me read. I have worked hard, and see, he has attacked our sect so much, it is necessary to answer them. We consider the Messenger and the Prophet to be infallible, and infallibility to be a condition of prophethood. Our scholars have written in detail that whether he is a prophet or a messenger, he does not commit any minor or major sins from the beginning of his life to the end, inadvertence and forgetfulness, mistakes, negligence and lies, rather any moral or character degradation remains far from his being, his actions, his conscience, his intention and will (see the introduction to Tanzeeh al-Anbiya by Syed Murtaza Alam al-Huda, page 1). He is true in every respect, he is truthful in every aspect, and for Mubahala from every kind of liar, he can say that "فَتَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتُه اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ. That is, in invitation to religion, belief and action, whoever is a liar, we pray to Allah for curse on him. The event of Mubahala proves that Rasul Maqbool (PBUH) was pure and immaculate, pure and innocent and infallible in every respect. If the Prophet is not infallible, if he is an ally of the disbelievers, if he is an assistant of the enemies of religion, if the Prophet and Messenger reconcile with the opponents of Islam, if his character is flawed, then there will be no trust in his revelation and no trust in his people. And his message will be wrong and suspicious. Historical evidence and friends, enemies and contemporary witnesses, but the entire society of Mecca testified that Muhammad Mustafa (peace be upon him) was Sadiq and Amin. Among these testimonies, I first mention the name of Hazrat Abu Talib, that he was the first protector of Khatam-ul-Mursalin (PBUH) and the mentor of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). Hazrat Abu Talib's poem is: لَقَدْ عَلِمُوا أَنَّ ابْنَا لَا مُكَذَّبٌ لَدَيْهِم وَلَا يُعنى بِقَوْلِ الأَبَاطِل (At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi.) Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: All these people know that our son (Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is neither a liar nor does he pay attention to wrong things. (Diwan Sheikh Al-Asbih, page 11). And Hazrat Ali said: Allah placed the prophets in the best places to be heard and settled them in the best abodes. They moved from high-ranking loins to pure wombs. When one of them passed away, another took over the religion of God until this honor of Allah reached Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), who was born from the best origin in terms of flourishing and the most dignified principles in terms of upbringing. From that tree from which all the prophets were created and from among them He chose His trustees. Your ﷺ progeny is the best progeny, the tribe is the best tribe, and the tree is the best tree, which emerged in the land of the Haram, grew in the shade of greatness, whose branches are long and fruits are beyond the reach of people. He is the Imam for the pious and insight for those who seek guidance. He is the lamp whose light is radiant and a star whose light is pervasive. He is a flint whose flame is bright. Your character is moderate, your path is guidance. Nahj al-Balagha Khutbah 93, footnote by Muhammad Abdu, printed in Egypt, page (201). Hazrat Ali (peace be upon him) used the original words for the character of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him): "Seerat al-Qasd." "Qasd" means a path that avoids excess and deficiency, which means "innocence," in which there is neither excess of sin and error nor deficiency of inactivity and laziness. The Holy Quran has mentioned this moderate morality and true innocence as "Khulq Azeem" (great character): "And indeed, you are of a great moral character." are the masters. The Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) have remembered this greatness of character with infallibility, and the scholars of Hadith and beliefs have considered infallibility a condition for the Prophet. Maulana Dildar Ali Lakhnavi's 'Imad al-Islam, Volume III, contains the most detailed discussion on this issue, and Syed Murtaza Alam al-Huda wrote "Tanzih al-Anbiya" on the same issue. In hundreds of books of theology, our scholars have discussed this and established a strong foundation of faith by proving the infallibility of the prophets. Therefore, to believe in a person as a prophet who makes mistake after mistake is a deviation from the principles of Islam and, along with it, a denial of Allah. The prophethood and messengership ended on our Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) because no addition could be made to the teachings of the Holy Quran, the book brought by him, and no law more comprehensive than his Sharia could be presented. No statement in his teachings could be invalidated with proof. Denying any statement without reasonable proof and only with stubbornness is actually opposition to "and whatever the Messenger has given you - take," and the name of this wrong opposition is disbelief. For example, if someone denies the obligation of prayer, it is disbelief. If someone does not believe in the obligation of fasting, it is disbelief, and if someone refuses to accept Jihad as obligatory, he will be committing disbelief. The Holy Quran is a living miracle of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and a firm proof of his being the Seal of the Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). This holy book determines the standard of revelation; its eloquence and rhetoric, its scholarly status, and the style of its invitation are unparalleled, and claiming revelation after its revelation is a mockery of the Holy Quran. The interesting thing is that the Holy Quran has given a principle for the prophets: "And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people." In this verse of Surah Ibrahim, by saying "in the language of his people," a rule has been given to us. If About a hundred years ago in Punjab, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed prophethood and, according to him, books came one after the other, they should have come in Punjabi. What is this that those books come in Urdu, Arabic, and Persian, and sometimes he converses with Allah in English and takes help from a Hindu boy to understand? And if his national language was Urdu even then, then the standard of revelation should at least not have been lower than Mir Amman's "Bagh-o-Bahar" or Rajab Ali Beg's "Fasana-e-Ajaib" or Mirza Ghalib's letters. How strange it is that the language of the nation is better than the language of the prophet, and the prophet's language has no standard at all. I think that this claimant, by writing his thoughts in Urdu, himself lost the credibility of his claim. And for the intelligent, God's argument is complete that one should trust the word of a person who has no etiquette of speech and relation to literature? And what will be the claim of someone whose word is without dignity except lies? And whoever tells such a big lie, who invents against Allah and the Messenger throughout his life, who ascribes his fabrication to God, his punishment should at least be that counting him among the believers of Allah should be declared a crime. I am submitting that prophethood is a divine office, which God does not entrust to everyone. The Holy Quran has clearly stated and declared for eternity that: "My covenant does not reach the wrongdoers." And who is the wrongdoer? The Holy Quran says: "And who is more unjust than one who invents about Allah a lie or says, "It has been revealed to me," when nothing has been revealed to him, and one who says, "I will reveal [something] like what Allah revealed." And if you could but see when the wrongdoers are in the agonies of death, while the angels are extending their hands, [saying], "Discharge your souls! Today you will be awarded the punishment of humiliation for what you used to say about Allah other than the truth and [that] you were, toward His verses, arrogant." (Surah Al-An'am, verse 93) 2/11 And who is more unjust than he who invents a lie about God or says, "It has been revealed to me," when nothing has been revealed to him? And he who says, "I will send down the like of what God has sent down." If you could but see when the wrongdoers are in the throes of death, while the angels extend their hands, [saying], "Discharge your souls! Today you will be awarded the punishment of disgrace for what you used to say about God other than the truth and [that] you were, toward His verses, arrogant." Consider that Mirza Ji sometimes calls himself Maryam. Then he himself calls himself the son of Maryam, and then he calls himself a drunkard. (Kashti-e-Nooh). Judge fairly, what severe punishment should be given to such a false accuser and one who makes such a great slander against the Great and Supreme Being of Allah. In the terminology of Sharia, this is called apostasy, and the punishment for an apostate is death. Your Excellency! In the Kuwaiti monthly "Al-Da'i Al-Islami" in the month of Sha'ban, i.e., next August, on page 106, the spokesman of the Ministry of Endowments and Islamic Affairs of Kuwait, taking into account a few points, such as Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim of being the awaited Messiah, the spirit of Christ has descended upon him, and he receives revelations, has described this person and his group as an organized conspiracy against Islam and a new religion in place of Islam, against the backdrop of unconditional support from Delphi Jahao and the British. And surely every sensible person wants to eradicate this conspiracy, and I believe that this house will implement the unanimous decision of the scholars of Islam that both groups of Qadianis and Lahoris who consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be the recipient of revelation are on falsehood in this belief and have nothing to do with Islam because these people consider their belief to be correct, so according to the scholars, they are all infidels and worshipers of a religion that has no connection with Islam. 2772 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep., 1974 They hold a minority status, just like other minorities residing in our country, they are also a minority and live in the country. This claimant of being a prophet and messenger, and his group, are clearly separate from us in their sayings, their beliefs, their actions, and their self-made system, and they consider us infidels and do not recognize us as true Muslims. These people sometimes insult the prophets. Sometimes they mock the religious elders. Their constant effort is to somehow humiliate Muslims. So that Muslims get provoked and fight with them, or kill each other. Be it Shia, Deobandi, or Barelvi, Ahl-e-Hadith or Hanafi. They are members of the same household, members of the same society, and worshippers of the same religion. These sons of Islam feel proud to sacrifice their lives for the honor of monotheism and prophethood. They all have equal faith in monotheism, prophethood, and the Quran. They have never dared to place any book in comparison to the Quran. They have not considered anyone equal to the Prophet. Their refuge is one, their life and death are one, their constitution is one. These two are the oldest interpretations of Islam. These two are two pages of the book of Islam. Both have always sacrificed their lives for the religion. They have died together, they have accepted their own death but saved each other from death. Hazrat Ali Ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him) is both the brother of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and brought up in his lap, also his son-in-law and a devoted follower. His noble father was the first to protect the last Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his office, by giving extraordinary life-selling and unparalleled sacrifice, he taught Muslims that Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) should not be harmed in his life and honor, message and truth. In short. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2113 As long as Abu Talib was alive, no harm could come to the Holy Prophet ﷺ. When he saw that the Quraish did not agree, he took the last Prophet of Allah ﷺ to his fort and endured such hardships in "Shab" that when the siege ended and its doors opened, Abu Talib (peace be upon him) had become so weak and frail, feeble and half-alive due to excessive starvation and abundance of sorrows that he could not live in the world for many days and passed away in a few days. Ali was the son of this great father. From the night of Hijrat to Uhud, Badr, Hunayn, Khyber, and Khandaq, and even Mubahala, he set a new record of serving the cause of truth in every battle. It was on this basis that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) called him his brother and the master of the Ummah on every occasion from the invitation of Dhul-Ashira to Hujjat al-Wada. The limit is that the Leader of the Two Worlds, the Seal of the Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) himself likened Ali Ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him) to Prophet Harun in this way: "You have the same relationship and the same status with me as Harun had with Musa." You are to me as Harun was to Musa (peace be upon him). I am sacrificed for the wisdom and insight of the Prophethood, the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not complete the sentence on this but said, "Except that there is no prophet after me." Therefore, no one should consider Ali to be a prophet. According to the command of the Messenger of Allah ﷺ, we Muslims do not consider any such person to be a Muslim who, God forbid, considers Ali to be equal to Allah or God. Or anyone who considers Hazrat Ali (peace be upon him) to be a rival or equal in rank and status to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Those people are polytheists and infidels. To compete with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), God forbid! We only know that until now, with al-Balagha, that is, the collection of Hazrat's sermons, has amazed great Arabs, and centuries have passed, but those sermons are deprived of seeing their answer in literature, thought, and philosophy of Islam. Readers have been reading and writing commentaries for centuries. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep., 1974 But no one has ever heard or read that Ameer-ul-Momineen or their followers, the Twelvers, consider you to be the recipient of divine revelation. Madam Acting Chairperson, Mr. Gardezi, how many pages are left? Syed Abbas Hasan Gardezi: Sir, just three more pages. Madam Acting Chairperson: Then you should read it after the prayers. It is time for prayers. We break for Maghrib Prayers and then we will meet at 7:20 p.m. again. (The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib Prayers to meet at 7:20 p.m.) (The Special Committee re-assembled after Maghrib Prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. Mr. Chairman: How many pages are left? Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: Sir, there are about four pages left. Mr. Chairman: Four pages are left, which means it will take half an hour. Saiyid Abbas Hussain Gardezi: It is a matter of little more than ten minutes. Dr. Muhammad Shafi: We all agree that he should be given time. Mr. Chairman: I will agree to what you agree. I have asked how many pages are left. Dr. Muhammad Shafi: Thank you very much. MAULANA ABDUL MUSTAFA AL-AZHARI: Sir, it is the wish of all of us that we read this in its entirety regularly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, you will get another chance. MAULANA ABDUL MUSTAFA AL-AZHARI: Do give it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Certainly. You were not present when I and he... MAULANA SHAH AHMED NOORANI SIDDIQUI: Sir, look, the thing is that you are our custodian of rights. Great injustices are done to us in this country. By God, I am coming after praying and I am telling the truth that we kept trying continuously for two hours at the PIA office to get a seat on the 8:30 AM flight. MR. CHAIRMAN: Why didn't you talk to me? You would have made a phone call. There was no question that this would have happened. MAULANA SHAH AHMED NOORANI: They did not give a seat to Maulana Zafar Ahmed Ansari and me both for this morning. And we said that sir, give us a seat from the MNA quota, but they did not give a seat from the quota. They gave a seat on the twelve o'clock flight. If the session is going on, all the seats should be canceled and the MNA should be given a seat first. They did not give a seat to Maulana Ansari Sahib either on the 8:20 plane, and not to me either, and gave a seat at quarter past twelve. MR. CHAIRMAN: My point is that besides the quota, M.N.A.'s should be given preference. MAULANA SHAH AHMED NOORANI SIDDIQUI: The seats on the 8:20 AM plane in the morning were empty, but we were not given a seat. Mr. Chairman: You give it to me in writing. I will file a formal complaint about it. You should have contacted me. Secondly, the rule is that MNAs should be given preference while going to attend the session. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqi: Yes, during the session. Mr. Chairman: That I will do. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqi: Sir! I will give it in writing right now. That's why the delay happened. Mr. Chairman: No, no, I am sorry. That's what I said to Maulana. He was giving a speech, and I said that you have given all this in writing already, 37 those who have not given it in writing should get more of a chance. This is a matter of principle. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqi: Two or four things that he raised later, Allama Sahib wants to clarify that this was prepared a bit earlier. Otherwise, this statement is unanimous. Mr. Chairman: I said the rest he can say. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqi: There were two or three clarifications left, which Mirza Nasir Ahmad made in the cross-examination. Those things could not be included in it because it was prepared a bit earlier. Mr. Chairman: I requested that he should state some of it and we will listen to the rest at Lal Masjid. That's what I said. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi! Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi: Sir! I have been instructed by the members to read a little slower. Mr. Chairman, no, no. This instruction is completely wrong. You move on quickly. Syed Abbas Hussain Gardezi, the long and voluminous record of the principles of religion and beliefs of the Imamiya, is devoid of this belief, and all Shiites are free from this belief. In fact, this is an accusatory response and a drowning man's grasp at straws from those whose religious leader writes in his compilation "Aina Kamalat," page 565: "I saw in a dream that I am God, and I became convinced that I am He." It is written on page 135 of Hitta al-Wahi: "يَوْمَ يَأْتِي رَبُّكَ فِي ظُلَلٍ مِنَ الْغَمَامِ" - "On that day, your God will come in the clouds." That is, He will reveal His glory through a human manifestation (Mirza). And this statement from Haqiqat al-Wahi, page 105: "إِنَّمَا أَمْرُكَ إِذَا أَرَدْتَ شَيْئًا أَنْ تَقُولَ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ" - "Indeed, your command, O Mirza, is such that whatever you say 'Be' to, it immediately becomes." The collection of sermons of Hazrat Ali (peace be upon him), Nahj al-Balagha, the collection of prayers of Imam Zain al-Abidin, Sahifa Kamila, "Fiqh al-Reza" of Imam Ali Reza (peace be upon him), and books attributed to some Imams are available. By studying them, nothing can be proven except the greatness of Allah, the glory of Tawhid, and the reality of servitude and perfection of worship, in addition to Islamic beliefs and accepted issues of religion. These books are a translation of the teachings of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and an affirmation of the true religion of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The greatness of Hazrat Ali (peace be upon him) is based on the hadiths of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his sacrifices, upon which one who mocks is mocking Islam. How much is this sentence from Malfoozat Ahmadiyya, Volume 1, page 310? It is criminal, and now a new caliphate and a living Ali (Mirza) are with you. You forsake him and seek a dead Ali." This religious tearing is about that Ali (peace be upon him) for whom the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "To whomsoever I am his master, this Ali is also his master," meaning whoever I am his master, Ali is also his master. Mirza Nasir Ahmad, in his memorandum, has tried to provoke Shia-Sunni differences by giving references from unauthentic and some non-Shia Ithna Ashari books, which is actually a part of a conspiracy to defame Islam. His references are incomplete and incorrect. There are countless books named "Tazkira Al-Aimma." Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib has used references upon references on page 183 of his memorandum, neither the author's name is mentioned, nor the correct names of the books. Moreover, none of these books is revelation or inspiration, nor is it obligatory for Shias to believe in these books, nor are their contents considered equivalent to Sahih or, God forbid, comparable to the Holy Quran. The conditions of the Imam's person and attributes are strict and very clear. On the condition of knowledge and infallibility, to claim prophethood or even suspect its similarity is meaningless. Hassan Mujtaba, who rejected the government so that the religion of his grandfather would not be weakened by his war and jihad, whose decision was that whether I live or not, the name of the Messenger of Allah should remain. The requirement of succession to the Messenger was that Hazrat Imam Hassan should ignore personal issues and view the interests of Islam and the Messenger of Islam with a broader perspective. After Imam Hassan (peace be upon him), Imam Hussain (peace be upon him) became the Imam, and the crown of succession to the Messenger of Allah was stained with blood on the blessed head of Imam Hussain (peace be upon him). QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2779 He is the Imam of lovers, the essence of Batool, The secret of "Bismillah" (In the name of Allah). Freedom from the garden of the Messenger (of Allah), The meaning of a great sacrifice has come to pass. The truth lives on from Shabbir's strength, Falsehood ultimately bears the mark of regret and misery. For the sake of truth, he rolled in dust and blood, Thus, he became the foundation of "La Ilaha Illallah" (There is no god but Allah). His blood revealed these secrets, He awakened a sleeping nation. When the sword of "La" (No) was drawn from its sheath, Blood dripped from the veins of the masters of falsehood. The inscription of "Illallah" (but Allah) is written on the desert, It wrote the line of our salvation. We learned the secrets of the Quran from Hussain, From his essence, we gathered flames. Our string trembles with a touch of his essence even now, Faith is still fresh from his Takbir (declaration of Allah's greatness). Syed (chief) of the leaders of Paradise, Syed al-Shuhada (chief of the martyrs) (peace be upon him), due to whose favor the necks of Muslims are bowed, and Khawaja Moinuddin Chishti Ajmeri (may Allah have mercy on him) is saying: "Hussain is the king, Hussain is the emperor, Hussain is the religion, Hussain is the protector of the religion." How insulting is this verse for this great Imam that: "Karbala is not a journey of every moment, I have hundreds of Husseins in my collar." The last Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) says, "Hussain is from me, and I am from Hussain." "Allah loves the one who loves Hussain, and Allah hates the one who hates Hussain." After that, see the audacity of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Actually, he should turn to his collar to see his face. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep., 1974 2780 The matter has reached the Panjtan Pak, so Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, about Gul Sarsaid Chaman Rasalat, the light of the eyes of Khatmi Martabat, Hazrat Syeda Kubra Fatima Zahra Salam Allah Alaiha, has made such nonsense that it is heartbreaking for every Muslim, and because of this insolence, God gave Mirza Ji the worst death. Respected gentlemen! Qadiani and Lahori gentlemen have confessed in their statements. Both have expressed that Ghulam Ahmed used to receive revelations. Many of his books are considered divine. It is clear from this that Qadiani and Lahori gentlemen are directly in the ummah of a person who is the recipient of Wahi and consider Sahib-e-Risalat Kubra Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) as a compulsion or as an ancillary. Otherwise, according to Mirza Sahib himself, "Na'وذ باللہ" is the Messiah of the age, Kalim of God, and " نقل کفر کفر نباشد" - has even become Muhammad and Ahmed. Perhaps he had become convinced of the Hindu philosophy of history or reincarnation. That is why he said: I am the true age and I am the Kalim of God. I am Muhammad, Ahmed that I am. (Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, page 3) Moreover, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed has been so bold in his lies that he has said on page 11 of "Waqa-ul-Bala": The true God is the one who sent his رسول in Qadian. Perhaps this proverb is for just such an occasion: "ایاز قدر خود جناس" I don't want to take much time now. I just want to draw the attention of the House to two things. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2781 Number one is the order of the Holy Quran: "Hold fast to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided." The enemies of Islam want to snatch the wealth of faith from us by entangling Muslims in internal conflicts and intellectual anxieties. They are thinking of breaking our relationship with the Messenger of Islam, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. The source of our strength is monotheism and prophethood. Our center of unity is the Quran. Our society is based on Islam. We have seen with our own eyes the intrigues of these Mirza'is who have spread their system of thought and action from Qadian to Kashmir and from Indonesia to Africa, who continue to make plans in India and Palestine. We should be careful of them and not allow any breach to occur in the fort of Islam. Do not be afraid to call a disbeliever a disbeliever and get rid of the political tactics of British colonialism. Everyone has seen the result of internal conflicts. Do not consider the enemy insignificant and helpless. Shia and Sunni fought in their homes, outsiders recorded both of their conversations and, without understanding our history, our relationships, our affairs, they declared both of us non-Muslims in the name of Islam. If there is even a slight mistake in the decision of this claim, if we still do not act wisely, if, God forbid, our feet slip, then history will say tomorrow: "This house was set on fire by its own lamps." The issue is clear to you. You have seen the mixing of water in milk. You understand very well that "contrary to Najd, the name is Zangi Kafoora." You have read the fatwas of all the great scholars of the world, and you have understood the beliefs of all Muslims. You have weighed the claims and arguments of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and now Mirza Nasir Ahmad and his companions, and you have heard the demands of the people of the country. Do not delay any longer. Depriving Muslims of their faith and their religion, or interfering with it. 2782 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep.. 1974 Instead, declare the Qadiani or, according to Ghulam Ahmad, the Ahmadiyya Jamaat or Jamaats as outside the pale of Islam. To promote unity with the Islamic world and Muslim countries, and fraternal relations with Muslim people, is the foundation of our foreign policy. Our government does not deprive any Pakistani citizen of his rights, nor do our people desire to hurt or trouble any Pakistani citizen. In these circumstances, if the Qadiani Jamaat is declared a minority, a non-Muslim minority, it will be in accordance with the Constitution of Pakistan and the ideology of Pakistan, and our House will have the honor of fulfilling one of its obligations. In this regard, the fatwas of Shia scholars and jurists are present: The Issue of the Finality of Prophethood and Its Significance The finality of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is proven by the Quran, Sunnah, Ijma (consensus), and reason. In the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty has called the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the Seal of the Prophets, meaning the last prophet. The Holy Prophet himself (peace and blessings be upon him) said that after me, there will be liars, they will be impostors because each of them will say that I am a prophet, whereas I am the last prophet, there is no prophet after me. (Agreed upon Hadith) The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away. Maula-e-Kainat Haider Karar (peace be upon him) is giving him a bath with tearful eyes and saying, O Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)! Your death has severed things that were not severed by the death of any prophet before you. That is, Prophethood, divine commandments, and heavenly news. (Nahj-ul-Balagha) Hazrat Imam Muhammad Baqir (peace be upon him) says that now Allah Almighty has neither sent any book after the Holy Quran because He declared the Holy Quran as the last book, nor any prophet because the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was declared the last prophet. (Usul Kafi). Hazrat Imam Jafar Sadiq (peace be upon him) taught Shia beliefs to one of his disciples. Explaining prophethood, he said that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the last prophet. (Sifat al-Shia Saduq). In every era, Shia scholars have been unanimous that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is Khatam al-Nabiyin, meaning the last prophet. And this issue is one of the necessities of religion. Its denier is an apostate. If there is an Islamic government, then it is obligatory to be killed. Therefore, Hazrat Maulana Sheikh Muhammad Hussain Najafi Marhoom, who holds an important position among the Shia scholars of this century, in his book Asl-e-Usool Shia, which has been translated by Allama Ibn Hassan Sahib Najafi, published by Raza Kar Book Depot Lahore has done. On page 72, in the statement of prophethood, he says: The belief of Shia Imamiyyah is straight that after Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) Whoever claims prophethood or revelation is an infidel and must be killed. Immediately after the 1920 elections, the Department of Shia Propagation Rawalpindi and Islamabad conducted various Asked Shia scholars about those who, after the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), Believe in the Prophet. Some of their statements are as follows: Hazrat Maulana Syed Najamul Hassan Kararvi (Peshawar) who is a member of the Islamic Consultative Council and represents the Shias in this council. Says in his letter: Prophethood is a part of the principles of religion. The finality of prophethood is included in the necessities of religion. One who denies the necessities of religion is an apostate or a disbeliever. Whoever denies the finality of prophethood is a disbeliever, and the impurity of a disbeliever is accepted by Muslims. Similarly, those who consider any person a prophet after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) are disbelievers in our view. This category also includes claimants of prophethood." (Note from the Administration): Former Muhammad Azam, Hazrat Agha-e-Mohsin Al-Hakim, writes in Tauzeeh Al-Masail Mufid, page 43: "The Muslim who denies Allah or the Seal of the Prophets, or denies a command that all Muslims consider to be part of the religion, while understanding that this command is not necessary, becomes an apostate." Hazrat Maulana Sheikh Muhammad Hussain Sahib Fazil Iraq (Sargodha) writes in response: "Whoever denies any matter from the necessities of religion is unanimously considered outside the circle of religion. By necessities of religion are meant those matters on which the followers of this religion agree and have consensus despite their internal differences, and among these necessities is also that the door of every kind of prophethood has been closed on the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Therefore, whoever claims prophethood after him, or whoever confirms such a claimant, has no place in the circle of Islam." Hazrat Maulana Hussain Bakhsh Sahib Qibla Fazil Iraq Principal Darul Uloom Muhammadia Sargodha writes: "The one who claims prophethood after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is a disbeliever, and believing a false prophet to be a prophet is also disbelief." Hazrat Maulana Malik Ijaz Hussain Sahib Qibla Fazil Iraq Principal Darul Uloom Jafria Khushab writes: "By unanimous agreement, a Muslim who falsely claims prophethood and does not believe in it is an infidel. Because the criterion of disbelief is not only the denial of Allah and His Messenger but also the denial of the necessities of religion is disbelief. Similarly, since the finality of prophethood is among the necessities of religion, that is, all Muslims agree on it, therefore, one who denies it and believes in someone as a prophet after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is an infidel. All Muslims agree on the aforementioned ruling." Hazrat Maulana Muhammad Jafar Sahib, Khateeb of Shia Mosque, and Maulana Syed Murtaza Hussain Sahib Sadrul Afazil Lahore writes: "Since the affirmation of the finality of prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is, according to the Quran and Hadith, among the necessities of religion and pillars of Islam, therefore, one who denies the finality of prophethood of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), even if he does not claim his own prophethood, is an infidel and impure, let alone someone who, along with denying the finality of prophethood of the Holy Prophet, claims his own prophethood. Satan merely denied prophethood. Allah declared him accursed and an infidel, even though he did not claim to be a prophet along with denying prophethood. It is obvious, rather more obvious, that when Allah and His Messenger made a clear declaration of the finality of prophethood upon the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), then denying the finality of prophethood is, in reality, denying the prophethood and truthfulness of the Holy Prophet." Hazrat Maulana Mirza Yusuf Hussain Sahib (Mianwali) writes: "And it is the unanimous decision of the majority of Muslims that whoever denies any root of the principles of religion or the necessities of religion is out of Islam. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) being the Seal of the Prophets and the Last Prophet is unanimously agreed upon and is from the necessities of religion. Therefore," "The person who, after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), claims prophethood, or supports any false claimant of prophethood, is outside the pale of Islam." Hazrat Maulana Syed Gulab Hussain Shah Sahib Naqvi, Principal of Madrassa Makhzan-ul-Uloom Al-Jafariya Multan, writes: "In the opinion of Shia Imami scholars, a false prophet is an infidel, and so is the one who believes in his prophethood. No prophet can come after the Holy Prophet." Maulana Muhammad Bashir Sahib Ansari states: "No prophet can come after Hazrat Khatam-e-Martabat (the Seal of the Prophets). Whoever claims to be one is an infidel, and so are those who believe in him." Mr. Chairman Maulana Zafar Ahmed Ansari Sahib, tomorrow morning - Abdul Aziz Bhatti. Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: "Mr. Chairman! The special thing under consideration in the resolutions that are under consideration before the Special Committee of this esteemed House is, what is the status in Islam of those people who are citizens of Pakistan and who do not believe in Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), being the last prophet. This issue is under consideration. In this regard, the testimony given here by Mirza Nasir Sahib and after that by Maulana Sadr-ud-Din Sahib, the president of the Lahore Jamaat, and the cross-examination that took place on them, they were given every opportunity at many such places to present their point of view. Keeping in mind all the cross-examination and their statement, I will make some submissions. I do not want to make a long speech. The first thing they objected to was that this Assembly has no right to consider these resolutions. In this regard, I will present one or two points with reference to the Constitution, which are that as far as the Constitution of Pakistan is concerned, Article 2 in it is as follows:" QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION "Islam shall be the State religion of Pakistan." 2787 Which clearly means that Pakistan is a state that is based on religious ideology, not a secular test. In this regard, I believe that it is the responsibility of this government and it is the duty of the Federal Government to make all kinds of laws for Islam, for the protection of Islam, for the defined limits of Islam, for the good of Islam, to maintain Islam and to protect it. And in this regard, if any sect, any group, any religion inside or outside Pakistan speaks out against the religion of Islam in any way, then I believe that this challenge should be accepted and faced. In this regard, it becomes a responsibility on the government of Pakistan. Number two, there is Article 20 in it. In it is: "Subject to law, public order and morality, (a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and (b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish maintain and manage its religious institutions", As far as this article is concerned, it is quite clear that the government and the authority of the government, as this House is, the legislative body, have full authority to make laws to some extent, in which public order and morality can be established, and in this regard, this Assembly has full authority to make any law. The question remains whether the people of Pakistan who are Muslims feel that 2788 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (2nd Sep. 1974 that a sect or some people are conspiring in this country against their religion, their faith, their belief, which may harm their religion, their fundamental rights, their own faiths, their own beliefs, then does this assembly not have the authority to make a law that does not harm their rights, their faith, that does not harm their faith? It is true that in fundamental nights, everyone has the right that their personal matters should not be interfered with in this way. But this right also extends to others, and this right should also be given to others that they have no right. I would like to clarify that if the Mirzais, the Mirzais or the Qadianis, believe that no one should interfere in their faith in this way, then they should also give this right to us, to other people, to Muslims, that they should not interfere in their right, their thinking, their faith, they should not try to spoil it, they should not try to confuse it. The religion of Islam was not created by Mirza Sahib. The limits of the religion of Islam, whatever its principles, have been determined by Allah Almighty. They have been determined in the Holy Quran. If anyone makes any changes in it, then the people who believe in it, who believe in Islam, have the right to challenge it that why are you doing this? And this is the responsibility of this government. In this regard, I believe that their objection is not acceptable and this Immeli has the authority to challenge it. Then there is an article 31 which states that it is the responsibility of the Government of Pakistan that: QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2189 (1) This also makes the meaning very clear that it is also the responsibility of the government to provide such facilities to the people here who are Muslims, whether it is through making laws or in any other way, to create such conditions that people adopt true Islam and reach their destination by adopting the true Islamic life, and not allow such people to distort Islam as they please, make various interpretations, various meanings, and various interpretations of the Holy Quran and try to mislead people. In that regard also, I think that if anyone tries to say such a thing, this assembly can interfere and make laws. They should be stopped. Whatever the decision of the merits will be, they should adopt it. Another thing, they had objected that in the federal list that the federal government has, which the constitution has given here, there is no such thing that the federal government should make any law or if this was a subject, then it should come under residuary powers and that belongs to the provincial governments. In this regard, I would like to submit that in the federal list at serial number 58, the federal government has the authority to make any law in this regard that is related to the federal government. I am referring to this because I think that there is no need to amend this constitution. If 6130 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 12th Sep., 1974 If a decision is made on merits, there is no need to amend the constitution. A National Assembly or Parliament can enact this into law in a joint session somehow, and that is: Serial No. 58 of the Federal legislative list: "Matters which under the Constitution are within the legislative competence of Parliament or relate to the Federation". So, Article 2 and Article 20, and under it, this issue is related to the Federal Government. In this respect, this law can be made under Section 58 of this Federal List. And the last thing, whether this assembly is authorized or not, and that is that according to the law of our country, since they themselves wrote to the National Assembly, to the Speaker of the National Assembly, that we should be called, we should be heard, they have surrendered by conduct, coming here they have given statements and they have accepted the responsibility that this assembly is authorized. So now they cannot deny that this assembly has no authority. In this regard, I think that as far as their objection was concerned, it is rejected. Now the question remains on merit, whether those people are Muslims in terms of faith or not, what is their religion, what is their belief. I think there have been countless speeches on this, evidence has also been taken, cross-examination has also been done, and countless honorable members of the House have presented various references here in the House. So one thing I want to say in very clear words is that even they do not deny it, and that is that they say that we consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet. What kind of prophet they consider him to be is a matter of interpretation, this is a matter of their own meaning. Sometimes they call it a mistake, sometimes something else They say, sometimes they say small, sometimes they say big. In any case, this is a settled matter. And, when they themselves have admitted it, I think that the members of our house do not need to present such references as to whether they believe him to be a prophet or not. They, in very clear words, Mirza Nasir Ahmad Sahib said during his interrogation that we believe him to be a prophet. But what do they say? They say that he is a small type, sometimes they say he is a shadow, sometimes they say he is a reflection. I think that under Article 42 and 91(4) of our Constitution, a large institution of this country has already decided that it is the belief of the people of this country, the Muslims, that no prophet of any kind will come again. The last prophet is our Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). If this matter has been decided, we have already discussed this matter, then I think we absolutely do not need to waste time on it. Whether or not another prophet can come. This is the right thing, the certain thing. This is our belief. At least it is certainly the belief of the people of this country. We have decided, so there is no need to delay it further. Now the question remains, when they say that we believe in a prophet, what should we do about it? If they call him a prophet, as they said in their statement that they believe, then what is their status in calling someone else a prophet. The straight thing is this, we have to decide on this. Of course, it is true that some Muslims, perhaps including me, commit many sins. We are sinners. Perhaps we cannot fulfill all the things of Islam completely. But there are some fundamentals, some things, the violation of which, the denial of which is such a great blasphemy that a person goes out of the fold of Islam and the Muslim community. What they have... These are all interpretations which hide their wrong intentions, or so I believe they were trying to do. But the main point is that there are some fundamental principles that if not accepted, then surely those Muslims are no longer Muslims. This is such a thing that is included in the fundamentals, just as Maulana Hazarvi Sahib and Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sahib had said that if permission is given that minor prophets can also come, then they can also say that minor gods can also come. If such interpretations are allowed, then surely, I believe that the structure of Islam will fall apart and we will be very guilty. I believe that I congratulate this Assembly of this country that we have got this opportunity to solve such a big problem which no one could solve ninety years ago and surely we will solve it and give it to them. (Applause). So, as far as this matter is concerned that it is their faith that they call him a minor prophet or whatever, in that regard, I believe that this of theirs is against the status of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) that he is the last prophet, being a denier of it, is proof of this, it is clear that they are not in the circle of Islam. Whether you call it the Islamic community or the circle of Islam, they are certainly outside of both. So, I want to submit this and there is one more thing, in this regard there are countless quotations, I believe that this matter is not just that they talked about metaphorical, reflected things, countless such things which I think do not reach the common man. I can also say with certainty that there are countless such people who are affiliated with this sect, they are not even aware of the details. Only those things are presented which are not true. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 41792 Because today, no one has properly exposed these people outside. There are one or two more quotations, if I am allowed, I will present them. It is that the true God is the one who sent his messenger to Qadian. Surely it is for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Now, the question remains that no, that was the meaning, this was its meaning. For God's sake, I think there are very simple Muslims here. Playing with their faith through manipulation of words is their way of doing things. And nothing else, because we have seen all sorts of their interpretations here. Sometimes of disbelief, sometimes of deniers, sometimes minor disbelief, sometimes major disbelief, in the circle of Islam, sometimes in the community of Islam, these were their kinds of things. What is this? I can say with certainty that all these things were to corrupt the faith of Muslims, and this was all started merely at the behest of the British, at the urging of the British. They wanted that only someone who comes before them in the form of a prophet can extinguish the spirit of Muslims, because they believe in the Prophet. And there is clear evidence for this that was presented to them. Mirza Nasir Sahib was confronted. He could not answer it. Throughout, he tried wherever he could not find an answer, he tried to hesitate. Their own conduct, their own way of doing things. Their dodging of the answer is clear evidence that their own case is not correct. Therefore, one thing that emerges is that they deny the fundamentals that are important. In that regard, the decision we have made is already under this constitution that those who do not believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, as the last prophet, we do not consider them Muslims. This is a settled matter. Since they do not believe, I believe they should not be considered within the fold of Islam in that regard. The other movement that was from Mr. Mian and some other members, and some from that side were probably involved who presented it, had some other points as well. One was that people belonging to this sect who are on specific posts should be removed from them. In this regard, I would like to submit that they are Pakistanis, they say they are Pakistanis, they are living in Pakistan. If this Assembly decides that they should not be given this right, then in that case, we will have to amend the constitution, which I think some friends might be upset with me about, but this is such a legal point that we will definitely have difficulty with it. As far as the second point is concerned, that they are not Muslims, they can say whatever they want all over the world, our case is so strong in that, the Muslims' case is so strong that we can defend it completely. We can say that they are saying the wrong thing. But as far as the matter of not giving them posts is concerned, I think that is a matter of government policy. Those are later things. If the responsible people of the government want, they can appoint someone to a position. If they don't want to, they don't. But in this regard, I think that it is a disgrace to Pakistan. In this regard, I would like to request my esteemed members of the Special Committee to keep these things in mind. Another thing is that if they are declared a minority, declared non-Muslims, then surely there are dangers for Pakistan as well. All the friends and esteemed members who are sitting here, I believe that they want to keep Pakistan established and permanent. They want Pakistan to remain and no harm should come to the freedom of Pakistan. And the dangers that we will face in declaring them a minority should also be considered. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2795 should be kept in mind. How to counter this, how to counter their ideologies. If it is only a matter of us declaring a minority, making a law, and then keeping our political expediency in mind, those who are against Bhutto Sahib's party will chant slogans that everything is at stake now, the situation is bad, we will just sit as spectators, or those who adopt such methods for their own political interests, then I certainly think that Pakistan will suffer such a great loss, and the purpose for which we are sitting here may also be lost. Perhaps that true Muslim for whose rights you are sitting here and thinking may not be able to achieve that goal. Therefore, we must keep this in mind. And also, to assume that all Ahmadis cannot be good Pakistanis is also something I think is wrong. It is possible that some people, as I said before, did not have the correct knowledge, they were not properly aware of the situation, they had compulsions. I will tell you an incident from my constituency. All the people in a village were Qadiani. Except for one house, the rest were Qadiani. But except for one house, all the rest go to the mosques and offer Friday prayers. And they admit that a mistake has been made, that they have committed a sin, a mistake has been made. So I think that a stage like this can come when some method should be adopted from these people, some proposal should be implemented through which those people who want to come back should also get a chance. So there should not be any law that closes these doors, because I am sure that many people who have made a mistake or some wrong Due to misunderstanding or some personal greed, if they have committed such a sin, it is possible that they may return. And the last thing I want to say to you is that we also created the constitution. There also we wrote Islamic Republic of Pakistan, but unfortunately, to defend Islam, to make Islam successful, to promote Islamic ideologies, a consensus has not been created among the people of this country to this day. Some raise slogans of Islam, some raise slogans of some other kind, and some people merely raise slogans of this kind that by keeping their personal interests, their personal loss, their personal dignity in front, when they feel that they are being harmed, they raise slogans according to whichever direction they see the wind is blowing. Just like if my person is harmed, someone becomes the father of socialism and someone becomes some other kind of father. So as long as such things remain in this nation, then I think that Pakistan Mr. Chairman: This is totally irrelevant. Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: ...and Islam will continue to be harmed. Therefore, I request that a path should be determined so that we can move towards the right destination. Mr. Chairman: This is not relevant. It is necessary that the speech ends on a personal basis. When the first clapping happened, you should have sat down. Chaudhary Ghulam Rasool Tarar: This is not personal. They have said that such men should not exist. Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: No one doubts those who have good intentions, but anyone who has bad intentions... Mr. Chairman, it is opening again on the seventh. After that, Chaudhry Mumtaz Sahib! Will you speak first, or Randhawa Sahib? Randhawa Sahib! It would be good if you could benefit from Chaudhry Mumtaz Sahib's thoughts. Then you will give a good speech. Okay, let Mohammad Afzal Randhawa Sahib speak. Mr. Mohammad Afzal Randhawa: Mr. Chairman! Regarding the issue of the Qadiani Fitna, the statements, cross-examinations, and speeches that have taken place in recent days, Mr. Speaker! They are before us, and sir! I am just a simple Muslim who is perhaps only a Muslim because he is the child of a Muslim. I do not know many constitutional or religious interpretations. Multiple members: Can't hear (Interruption). Mr. Mohammad Afzal Randhawa: So, Mr. Speaker! I want to make two or four general submissions in this regard. As far as constitutional subtleties are concerned, sir! In this country, which was taken in the name of Islam, and when this country was taken, the biggest slogan for it was "What is the meaning of Pakistan? There is no god but Allah." So, sir! In a country that was taken in the name of Islam, such a Fitna and a tragedy has happened to the entire Islamic world for the past eighty (80) or ninety (90) years, and a group is making it stronger and stronger. For this Fitna, I do not need to go into any constitutional subtleties. The basic constitution of Islam is the one that came thirteen hundred years ago, which we believe in, and everything is in it. And Mr. Speaker! In this regard, there is no need to look at the current national constitution or the previous constitutions. Mr. Speaker! Whatever is, is in front of us, and it is written on the wall. So, sir! The two aspects of this issue that I understand are political and religious. Politically, it was an imperialist conspiracy to weaken the Muslim world, as pointed out by Rao Khurshid Ali Khan. Sir! We also get evidence of this from the fact that the third Caliph, Mr. Mirza Nasir Ahmad, refers to the first war of independence of Muslims in this continent, i.e., the War of Independence of 1857, as "Ghadar" (mutiny). So, sir, the Qadiani issue was a conspiracy that was hatched to politically eliminate the consciousness of Muslims. Sir! The British planted and nurtured this sapling at that time, and then, like a dagger that the British had thrust into the chest of the Arab world in the form of the state of Israel, a similar dagger was thrust into the chest of the Muslims of the subcontinent in the name of Qadianis. Sir! Religious interpretations have been written. There is a verse: "Reason is cunning, it changes guises a hundred times" (At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad.) Mr. Muhammad Afzal Randhawa: Sir! Previously, I was fortunate enough that I neither read any book of the Qadianis, nor was there any such elder in my circle of friends with whom I could have become acquainted. But what the mind has seen here, the mind is ashamed, the mind is embarrassed. How interpretations of a wrong thing, then interpretations, and one interpretation out of interpretations. How thousands of lies are being told to hide one lie. Sir! When a witness is cross-examined, it is not just this It is seen what he has said in response. But, sir! It is also seen, and this is extremely important, how the witness is responding. Is he testifying in the manner that a truthful man would, or is he testifying in the manner that a liar would? Sir! All of us who are sitting here, I consider all the honorable members to be superior to myself in knowledge and greater in status. Sir! According to my limited understanding, this lie is a fraud that these Mirzais are trying to prove true from here and there. They are trying to prove something on which the entire Islamic world, not only religious scholars but also children, vagrants, thieves, pickpockets, even the worst Muslims in the world, consider it their greatest pride to be sacrificed for the name of the Prophet ﷺ and the name of Prophethood, and they are telling us interpretations about it. I will not go into lengthy discussions. My simple point is that there is one thing on which I agree with Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti, that we sinners have been granted this great honor to protect the honor of the Prophet, and that this issue is resolved through our hands. And I have a firm belief that worldly wealth, worldly pomp, or positions, or ranks, or memberships, are less worthy than the dust of the feet of the servants of the servants of the Holy Prophet, the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad, may God bless him and his family. For this, memberships may go, positions may go, in fact, we believe that our parents should also be sacrificed, we ourselves should be sacrificed for Prophethood, our children should also be sacrificed. We consider no greater pride than this. So, sir! It is a very straightforward matter. Politically, it is a political party. Immediately, a strict ban should be imposed on it, and they should be held accountable. And Secondly, whatever funds they have from various sources, whether they are received from Israel or from here, should be accounted for and confiscated. And thirdly, Mr. Speaker! The city of Rabwah, which they call the city of Zilli, should be declared an open city where people can come and go. Their conspiracies should be exposed to the public. Regarding removing them from key positions, I will disagree with my honorable friend, Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti. Mr. Speaker! If the constitution of this country and the Muslim community declare them a minority, and this is the order of Islam, which cannot be ignored in any way, then what is the harm in removing such people from key positions? And then this logic does not make sense to me that "they can neither be good Muslims nor good Pakistanis." In the same way, sir! If they are not good Muslims, then how can they be good Pakistanis? We need the country's security more than the country's defamation. Defamation is such a thing that can be explained, which we can explain, we can clean the stains of defamation. But Mr. Speaker! Here, the question is of the country's security. We are not at all convinced to hand over the country to such people in any way. If they are declared a minority, then they can definitely be removed from key jobs. If a person is not a good Muslim, then from my point of view, he can never be a good Pakistani. Therefore, the basic philosophy of this country under which we have achieved this country is Islam. The second aspect, Mr. Speaker! is the religious aspect, and in this regard, I will demand, as my honorable members have demanded, that you call them infidels, declare them a minority, call them apostates, call them liars, whatever words are in the dictionary, about which Hazrat Khalifa Sahib used to say that every word has fifteen meanings, if If one word has two hundred meanings, then I want to use all such meanings for them, and I say that they should be declared a minority. Thank you. Mr. Acting Chairman (Professor Ghafoor Ahmed Chaudhry Mumtaz Ahmed! Chaudhry Mumtaz Ahmed: Mr. Chairman! This old issue of Qadianis is before this House. I believe that this is a historic opportunity when the elected representatives of Muslims, who are sitting in this Assembly, have got the opportunity to purify Islam, and those who, in the name of religion, I think, are frauds in this country and who have made business hubs should be eliminated. Before saying something, I want to say that I am a very simple Muslim and a non-religious man. I only have faith in the religion of Islam. I would like to request my friends that if I say something while talking, since I am a non-religious person, then I would like to apologize for my insolence. Mr. Chairman: Don't call yourself non-religious. Chaudhry Mumtaz Ahmed: This is my own opinion. I have faith in religion and Islam. There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, this is my faith. Anyway, we were told that you should first believe in all the prophets, believe in the books, believe in the angels, and all the things that are there, offer prayers, give zakat, the purpose of all this was that Islam should grow in the world and for the betterment of people and humanity. And this was the reason why Allama Iqbal had said that the purpose of all the teachings and preaching of Islam is that people should be good, help each other, and then the society that is created... Man was created for the sake of a suffering heart, Otherwise, the angels were not any less for obedience. And then by acting on Islamic teachings, such a society was formed in which Islam shone and continued to grow. And even today, I believe that the number of Muslims in the world is greater than almost all other religions. And all who are, are firm on their sect. But then when the Islamic grip weakened, people's beliefs weakened, and the era of materialism came, when the era of kingship came, people started creating their own stories in between. False prophets were also made. In addition, leaving the scholars of truth, the people who were doing the right education and preaching left education and preaching and started collecting money. They distanced people from Islam. In this way, according to my opinion, 72 sects were formed in Islam. Then they started having debates and discussions among themselves, and that too on minor issues. The main thing was to keep Islam firmly established in the world in the right difficulty, they forgot it, and in this way Muslims suffered more. The decline of Muslims began. When science progressed and other communities, they also kept their religion in mind and attacked Islam in every way, Jews, Christians and Hindus. As the hypocrisy increased among Muslims, so did the sects. In this way, Islam became weaker. Now, since the Qadianis were from India, I am now coming to that side. Here too, since there was a foreign government and then there was the government of the Muslims, so they were in danger. They thought to create discord among the Muslims. Muslims are dangerous because they have the spirit of Jihad. They started riots and sectarianism among Muslims. They said that such a rumor should be spread which would weaken the Muslim community. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2803 But I understand that the British used a man who, according to my knowledge, because I am also a resident of Amritsar district, Mirza Sahib's religion started from there. He was from Pi. Mirza Sahib's religion came out from there. He was from Pi. It is a town, and they were Mughals from there. Since they were Mughals, they had the spirit to rule. I also have personal acquaintance with them. He was an intelligent man. In matters of religion, he debated with Christians, and it is heard that the Christians were defeated considerably. The British thought of controlling them somehow. So, we have heard that they were controlled, and they showed their consent. And together with their first Caliph, Nooruddin, they laid the foundation of creating a new sect. Then, as this sect was being formed, they said that there are already 72 sects, let it be 73. Then they claimed prophethood. These are all strange things. Since Islam came, no one had claimed prophethood after that. They slowly started preaching. We were born in the era when he had passed away. Now, whatever cross-examination has taken place, the responses from both sects have come, from which it is proven that they have clearly acknowledged that Mirza Sahib was a prophet. When they were asked what proof there was that he was a prophet, it was said that ask God. I think this is correct, the decision is indeed to be made by God on the Day of Judgment as to what is truth and what is falsehood. Perhaps this decision cannot be made in the world. But since the slogan was to eliminate all forms of exploitation, as was decided in the 1970 election, similarly, there are forms of exploitation in religion as well, they should be purified. I think that 72 sects were already formed. They were encouraged to open a new shop. They then 2804 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep., 1974 He went further and claimed prophethood. Now they say, ask God. God's decision will be on the Day of Judgment. People want a decision today. In my honest opinion, the people of Pakistan want this issue to be resolved. The people want the religion to be purified. Every such person who uses the name of Islam only to promote himself, or has created a sect from it, or has formed a group, made it a means of collecting money, or takes aid from abroad, or is conspiring against Pakistan, I believe that Islam should be purified in the true sense. According to my opinion, before ending all the shops and all the frauds made in the names of individuals and in the names of sects, it is necessary to end the fraud of fake prophets. Mr. Speaker! I do not want to say much about this, as my friends have said a lot. We have read the Holy Quran and studied the lives of the prophets and seen how they spread the religion. History tells us that whenever a reformer came, wherever he was born, he went among the people and preached to them. This is the glory of prophethood. They did not look at the big people. But here I see that whatever group has been formed and whatever sect has been formed, it only preaches to the big people, casts a net on the big people, includes big officers, soldiers, industrialists, traders, and leaders in their sect. No one goes to the public, they cast nets on the big people. The sects of the present era that we have seen are probably not sincere in serving the religion because if they were sincere in serving the religion, then we have our Prophet, on whom we Allah believe that he is the last prophet, after him there is no question of anyone else of any kind. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2805 Happens to come. They went among the people and preached, and in return for that preaching, they still ate. So now in this era, anyone who has claimed prophethood or is sitting making a claim, and he has made himself a reformer, although I understand that prophethood only comes from God, and the prophet announces that I am a prophet, no one else announces it. People address him as a saint, a reformer, a good man, a scholar, a Pir, and no one becomes one on their own. But here we see people becoming one on their own. I believe that whoever becomes one on their own is a liar. The one whom God's creation calls, whom the divine calls, that is the true one. So now all of creation is saying that this matter of being a prophet is wrong, we do not believe it because it is a fundamental belief of Islam. I think it is not such a thing. They themselves have clearly stated in this examination that whoever does not believe in Mirza Sahib as a prophet despite the completion of the argument is outside the bounds of Islam. They themselves have made the decision. Now the assembly has to make the decision. And I will not give any opinion from my side. But I will definitely present a few points. They did not preach among the people, so in my opinion, they are not true prophets. And secondly, God will decide that they have said here that those who do not believe are infidels, now they will go to hell. Okay, then when they go to God, if everyone goes to hell, then we will also go. If they are truthful, then a few will remain in paradise. We have no complaints about this. We do not want to become that in any way. Mr. Speaker! Now the question is what to declare them as. So I understand that the honorable members of the assembly who are sitting are representatives of the people. Among them are scholars and erudite people as well. 4800 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (2nd Sep., 1974 There are Peers, and we have now gained considerable command over religion, like Mirza Sahib's Cross-examination took place. Other gentlemen also read their respective affidavits. Besides, you are fundamentally Muslim. Everyone knows a little bit about what Islam What are the basic principles? So, whatever the opinion of all friends will be, mine will be the same. will be. We will have to follow the public's opinion because now the politics of Pakistan is in the hands of the people, and whatever the people want will happen. No one will turn away from this. will not do. And I am fully convinced about this that the head of our country Quaid-e-Awam Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto will also believe in the opinion of the people. According to the opinion of the people All friends will decide about this together. But along with this, finally, I want to say that there is a need What is the best way to serve Islam if we want to bring a true Islamic system to this country? be done. Sir! I will say clearly that after that there should be no There should be no sectarian dispute. Everyone agrees on the basic thing, so what is the dispute? what's the matter. Tell me this, and after that, I will address my scholars I will say this to the common Muslims as well that if we remain in minor disputes after this, then the opportunity that has come to purify the religion of Islam, to take it to development and prosperity, will be lost. And on the Day of Judgment, the poor Muslims will catch you and catch you here too. I will also say this because Islam has every aspect, Islam also has a progressive aspect, the word socialism was coined in this era, and they say Islam socialized people 1400 years ago, and if we act on it correctly, no one can remain hungry, no one can remain naked, no one can remain dishonored, and Justice will be served, and whoever works hard will be compensated. And Islam has established the foundation for earning through labor, stating that lawful sustenance comes only from hard work, only from hard work. But now there are those who claim to be Muslims but say that a capitalist Muslim is acceptable because it involves usury. Mr. Acting Chairman (Professor Ghafoor Ahmed): Mumtaz Sahib! This matter is not under discussion. Chaudhary Mumtaz Ahmed: I mentioned it briefly in passing. So, sir! In conclusion, I would just like to say that the desolation of mosques, the distance of the younger generation from Islam, the decreasing practice of Islam, although they do not deny it, but the practice is decreasing, if you want to rectify this, then the greater responsibility lies with our religious leaders. And I will say, I suspect, I doubt that there will be infighting again. Last night at the Badshahi Mosque, I don't want to mention it, but I heard that slogans were raised against opposing figures. Islam is not the property of any individual. Islam is not the property of any group, Islam is not the property of any sect. Islam, Islam, and only Islam, if it is the property of anyone, it is only God's. It belongs to the Messenger of God (PBUH). It belongs to the Quran and all Muslims. For God's sake, abandon these shopkeeping practices, tear down these personal idols. If you believe in one God, and one Messenger (PBUH), then end all these fake shops, end these fake prophets, and end these fake reformers who are sitting here, and only believe in La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah, and believe in the Quran, and believe in the Day of Judgment, do good deeds, serve the poor, develop the country, develop Islam, then, God willing, we will be successful on the Day of Judgment and also successful in this world. Mr. Deputy Chairman, Mr. Ghulam Nabi Chaudhry! We will start at 9 am. And after that, would anyone else like to speak? Because there might not be a session in the evening tomorrow. (No reply) Mr. Ghulam Nabi Chaudhry: Mr. Chairman! I am grateful to you for giving me the opportunity to present my thoughts and the thoughts of the people of my constituency on the motions related to the issue of the Finality of Prophethood that have been presented in this special committee. Sir, I am a simple Muslim, not a religious leader. Therefore, I will try to limit my discussion to the general aspects of this issue. Sir, the Qadiani movement was a very organized movement and the people who promoted it were very influential. At that time, the British government greatly appreciated it and the British government provided opportunities for this plant to grow and flourish in the land of this country, especially in Punjab. Sir, my ancestral village is very close to Qadian, so I have had the opportunity to see and observe this movement flourishing and growing since 1955. Where the Islamic world has faced many losses from this movement, the land of Punjab and the people of Punjab, who are proud to be passionate about freedom, have suffered the most from this movement. This movement has caused enmities in every home in Punjab, rebellion among relatives, enmities among loved ones, riots, and innocent lives have been sacrificed in riots more than a century. And for a century, Punjab has been burning in the fire of this devastating movement. Sir! The issue of the division of the Gurdaspur district arose because, as those people have stated in this house, they wrote to the British Government regarding their being a minority, that in the way we can present two (2) Ahmadis against one Parsi, due to that, the district of Gurdaspur, which had a Muslim majority, was turned into a minority due to their departure, and the district of Gurdaspur was divided, as a result of which the subcontinent got the Kashmir issue, and as a result of this issue, I believe, Pakistan was divided, and there were constant wars with India, due to which both countries had to bear so much bloodshed and so many economic losses. I believe that the direct responsibility for this lies with the movement that provided the opportunities for the division of the Gurdaspur district and converted 52 percent Muslims into 49 or 48 percent, which gave the Radcliffe Commission the opportunity to divide the district of Gurdaspur and provide a gateway for India. So these are the services of this movement for the subcontinent, and especially for this country, for Pakistan, that in some way, if on one hand this movement played its role in ending the soul of Jahan, then on the other hand, this movement is responsible for repeatedly fueling the fire of war for this country. Mr. Speaker, Sir! Then, whatever losses the Islamic world has suffered from this movement, whenever the fall of Jerusalem occurred, Muslims suffered losses in Constantinople, any fall occurred in Baghdad, the claimants of this movement lit lamps and rejoiced that the Islamic world is weakening and the Islamic world is suffering losses and the Muslims of the world are being defeated. This is the role of the people holding this movement in this way, their enmity towards Islam has come out in the open, and it has been fully realized that these people... 2810 INJU I DOINZL ADƏDWIDE TOT TANIJA From Islam, how much love they have, or to what extent they relate to the entire Islamic world and the Islamic community. Mr. Speaker! The way they occupied key positions in Pakistan, the damage they caused to the economy, the way they fueled the concept of a "State within a state," and the way they closed the city of Rabwah to other people in Pakistan and established a state within Pakistan—this is not a hidden matter, and these things have been openly acknowledged in this House. Then, the worst examples of nepotism and favoritism are before you. From this, you can gauge the extent to which Pakistan's administration had to suffer losses from this movement. Previous governments did not dare to confront this power, and this honor and privilege came to the people's government and this National Assembly that they took such a bold step that while they were preparing the constitution, towards the issue of the finality of prophethood, the oath for the President and Prime Minister provided a guarantee that those who do not believe in the finality of prophethood can neither become the President of this country nor the Prime Minister of this country. And as long as this world exists, the members of this assembly, and especially the people's government, will retain the honor and privilege of having taken a bold step for the first time in the history of this country to expose those who do not believe in the finality of prophethood. Mr. Speaker, according to my understanding and the advice of the people in my constituency, which they impressed upon me after calling me, I believe that if Pakistan is to be saved, if the army of this country is to be saved from new conspiracies, if a neutral administration is to be established in this country, if it is to be saved from nepotism, and if the people of this country JADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2811 To establish a peaceful environment in offices and factories of this country, to strengthen the economy of this country, and to save properties, houses, shops, neighborhoods, and markets from the flames of fire, and to save the simple-hearted Muslims of Punjab from the bloodshed, to avoid repeating the history of 1953 of General Azam's era, we have to find a correct and permanent solution to this problem. In this lies the betterment of the Muslim world, in this lies the betterment of Pakistan. (At this stage Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali.) Mr. Ghulam Nabi Chaudhry, in this lies the betterment of Pakistan, and especially in the permanent solution of this problem lies the betterment of Punjab. It is facing the issue of peace. Sir, this honor has been bestowed upon this special committee and the members of the National Assembly of this country by God Almighty that they should find a one-time solution to this problem with courage, with truth, and with the insight of a believer. The atmosphere that prevails in this country at this time regarding this sensitive issue is not hidden from the government, nor is that issue and that matter hidden from the members of this house. The people of this country want this issue to be resolved once and for all, the issue because of which riots, sparks, fire, bullets, and all this continue in this country again and again. This assembly, this special committee, should resolve this issue once and for all. Through you, my request to the experienced members of this committee is that the matter which the Muslims and scholars of the subcontinent have been discussing for a hundred years and for an entire century, for eight, eight, twelve, twelve hours... 2812 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep., 1974 The good fortune to solve what could not be solved after the speeches has fallen to your lot. Now, it remains to be seen in what manner we play our part, in what manner we prove to the people of this country and the Islamic world that we are capable of solving this delicate issue, which is eating away at the Islamic world and especially Pakistan, in the best way possible, so that not only the people of this country are satisfied, but also other countries living on the globe do not feel that there is narrow-mindedness in this country and that there are people in this country who solve problems with great narrow-mindedness. Mr. Speaker! My request is that we, InshaAllah, make the decision on the definition of a Muslim, which has been entrusted to us, in the best way and in such a manner from this committee and this House, in the same manner that we have jointly and unitedly given a constitution to the millions of people of this country, and with that spirit, we will, InshaAllah, be successful in solving the issue of Khatm-e-Nabuwwat as well. My prayer is that Allah Almighty may give us strength and strengthen our souls, strengthen our hearts. May He grant us the wisdom with which we can solve this problem in the coming 2-3 days in a better way. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Malik Karam Bakhsh Awan. Malik Karam Bakhsh Awan: Sir! I should be given time in the morning. Mr. Chairman: It would have been better to give a speech now. Anyway, you are a signatory member. You will get a little time. Your signatures are on it. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2813 Mr. Ghulam Hassan Khan Dhandla: We should all get time. Mr. Chairman: You can make a speech. You are also a signatory member. Those who are signatory members Chairman: should take it. Members will get five minutes each. Mr. Ghulam Hassan Khan Dhandla: Sir, five minutes is too little. Mr. Chairman: Here your name Dhandla has been printed incorrectly. Mr. Ghulam Hassan Khan Dhandla: Sir, now it should be corrected. Mr. Chairman: I didn't write it, Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani wrote it. Mr. Ghulam Hassan Khan Dhandla: Mr. Chairman! Many speeches have been made in this House. Many references have been given from books. References of Hadiths have also been presented a lot. Verses of the Quran have also been presented a lot. We have also submitted a written statement from our side, which bears my signature. After this statement, there is not much need for speech. We have recorded our opinion in the written statement. In any case, in support of my written statement, I would like to submit that the statements of both groups of Mirzais, Lahori and Radwaals, have proved that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claimed prophethood and whoever claims to be a prophet after Muhammad Mustafa ﷺ is a Kafir (infidel) in our opinion as Muslims. Sir, in this regard, my opinion is that both groups of Mirzais should be declared a non-Muslim minority and the constitution should be amended accordingly. It should be clarified in the constitution that both types of Mirzais should be declared a non-Muslim minority. Radwa should be declared an open city. Mirzais should also be removed from key positions. This is my opinion. I think that speeches should not be made here. We have heard and made many speeches. This is my own opinion that Mirzais are infidels and they should be declared a non-Muslim minority. 2014 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [4214 Mr. Chairman, Makhdoom Noor Muhammad Sahib! I wish Mr. Dhandla, you had spoken earlier. Maybe they could have learned something from you, like Dr. Bukhari Sahib and other members who gave long speeches. Mr. Makhdoom Noor Muhammad: Sir! I submit that this esteemed House, the National Assembly, has been formed into a committee to determine the beliefs of the Qadiani and Mirza'i groups. The events and reasons that have come before us are clear to us. Muslims inherently know their beliefs. Islam is the divine system of religion, world, and hereafter. Alteration and change in it are in direct contradiction to the fundamental teachings of Islam. We all know these things. Muslims could have strayed from their beliefs merely because of such seditions, which are run on imperial capital for political purposes, to interfere with an authentic and accepted religion, and to create division in the Muslim Ummah. It is a very old act of imperialism and governments. In this regard, we are facing an extremely important issue about which we have to decide what the purpose of this movement is, what the purpose of this group is, and what is the justification for its underground conspiracy. Sir, in the light of my limited mind or according to my extremely limited study, the intelligence department of the British Crown, the Zionist lobby, this is a created group of the Zionist group about which, sir! you are well aware. What is the biggest philosophy of the British Empire? "Divide and Rule." After that, there was a terrible tactic ahead of it. That: "How to sow dragon's teeth." QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2815 They forcibly impose on poor nations for their stability, for their trade, for their culture. They also have other tactics to impose on them because it is a very historical and such a verified fact, why deny this fact. The intelligence department of the British Crown created these two sects. They have misled the Muslims. They gave birth to Hindus in the form of Arya Samaj movement. Let me briefly explain to you. Islam is that pure religion, it is the last religion, in which the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets. This is the last decision of God Almighty. The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said that everything in the Holy Quran is verified and pure. Muslims believe in the finality of Prophethood. This is a true and great part of Islam. Sir! You know, like idolatry, it is the oldest religion in the world for thousands of years, of the Hindus. Idolatry has entered their blood for thousands of years. The slogan of Arya Samaj was that Allah is one, there is no partner, Bhagwan is alone, idol worship is forbidden. As if they also interfered in their religion, just as they created a charade to mislead us Muslims. The only role of these two groups with the Pakistani nation, their only role, is to create division in the Islamic world, in view of the growing population, growing trade, and growing wealth of the Islamic world, lest these countries become prosperous, to create cracks in the fort of Islam. It is the biggest underground conspiracy, especially imperialism, Zionism, whether it is in any region of the world. Sir! You know, I am acquainting you with this real logic that this strong and interconnected, this old sedition, I will apologize extremely, that I have read with my own eyes in "Time Magazine". Maybe I have a history of seven years ago. 2810 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [Z] Sep., 1919 If my memory serves me right, Mr. Speaker! There is a Hindu organization in America. "Time" magazine in America acknowledges that the American CIA writes that the American CIA .is the illegitimate child of British Home Department. Sir! I I submit that in order to run its government and expand its rule, Britain had to take the help of an organization for a vast force. Mr. Speaker! You can imagine that when British power ended, when Britain was on the decline, when the power of Britain was withdrawing from its colonies and occupied territories and began to return to the British Isles, then they did not have the power to maintain and run the Home Department system, which had performed great feats. Eventually, that system was transferred to the American CIA. The integration of the world, the political dominance of the West, Western Europe, Western countries, and the Western Hemisphere, those powers were automatically transferred from Britain to the American CIA. Sir! Now you can imagine that the plant planted by the British Crown has been similarly transferred to the CIA for irrigation. There were more capable people in Pakistan than Chaudhry Zafarullah. Mr. Speaker! I will speak logically. In matters of religion, the scholars have explained their beliefs, experiences, and insights in detail. I will only submit that Chaudhry Zafarullah and M.M. Ahmad, or the rest of their group, were below average intelligence. They were raised up. Their status was deliberately highlighted. Mr. Speaker! Syed Hussain Shaheed Suhrawardy and A.K. Brohi were more deserving to become judges of the International Court. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2817 His personality was no less. But he was not an agent of imperialism. Therefore, his appointment was an obstacle to the intentions of the Western powers, and they did not accept taking those great personalities. Similarly, sir! If you see, M.M. Ahmad, who is sitting in the World Bank after breaking Pakistan, has been conspiring and deceiving. He was the first Assistant Commissioner who, at the time of partition, when the Hindus were evacuated from Sialkot and the property of the migrants came into hand, immediately picked it up and included it in the Qadianis of Gurdaspur. Sir! Their love for Pakistan is also due to some bitter realities that they express. They, together with Radcliffe Award and Mountbatten, and in collaboration with Congress, according to Mr. Chaudhry Ghulam Nabi Sahib, got our Muslim Punjab areas cut off and included in India. Honorable members will express their opinion in this regard. After that, when the Sikhs fled from West Pakistan, West Punjab, they pushed them out from there, and the promises of Pandit Nehru remained hanging in the air. And they came and ravaged us, got our Muslim Punjab areas cut off, made our people refugees, and then they achieved their position here in Reda, which they are now sitting on, making it an independent little state. Whether it is a municipality or whatever, it has been an explanation of their intentions. Sir! There is absolutely no explanation for this other than that it is a stronghold of imperialism against the unity of the Islamic world. This is not a religion. God forbid, it is not a sect. It has nothing to do with it. They are hidden underground, and these are hidden conspiracies. It is a political movement that is assigned to ravage the Islamic world, God forbid. 2818 DNATIONAL MƏSCİVIÐLI UP FANIŞIND Sir! Now I will express a very inadequate thought of mine here, which, as a human being, circulates in the mind of every human being. The fact that he was the Promised Messiah, he had to come in the last era, and he had to reform the society, Jazak Allah. I want to ask that if we look at it logically, we can say that Mao Zedong gave the philosophy of Marxism to 700 to 750 million people. There was Lenin, he also had his own thought. Sir! First of all, I draw your attention to this reality of our holy land. Our Quaid-e-Azam, may Allah have mercy on him, He may shower His mercy on him, he gave a philosophy to the Muslim League and the Muslims of the subcontinent and we got a homeland, Quaid-e-Azam got a homeland, Pakistan was achieved. Obviously, there was a philosophy, a thought, as a result of which we got Pakistan. Okay, even if they are our enemies, Gandhi Ji Maharaj used to say to Muslims: "A band of converts cannot be a nation." Leave it, but even if they are bitter truths, they fought for the freedom movement. There has also been a Khilafat Movement. He gave freedom to India. Gandhi Ji was a very big thing for his nation and was among the famous leaders of the world. Sir! Jamal Abdul Nasser was there, he had given the lesson of unity to the Arab world. It is a very big thing. Many such personalities have come in Africa. Therefore, if we analyze this group in this era, then it has neither performed Islamic nor political services. If you look at their thought on the other hand, what have you done for religion? Those books "Anjaam Atham and Kashti Nooh and besides, I don't know what else there was. And the name that especially appeared to me at the top of mental thought was KOMANDI BOSUF-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2819 "Sat Bachan." Can you tell me what this name is, a name filled with thought-provoking ideas? Sir! As a Muslim, it is my duty to be zealous in the matter of my religion. A person, a group that is plundering the Islamic world with the force of capital, we have the right to expose its true nature. Sir! We have reviewed these bitter facts that this group, nurtured on the funds of Heela and Tel Aviv, is not only an enemy of Islam, it is first and foremost an enemy of Pakistan and the worst group in the Islamic world because the Jews are open, the Hindus are open. All the other socialist forces that want to erase you from the world map, and if you have any underground enemy in front of you, it is only this group whose identification has troubled you every time. Sir! You yourself know what impression we have taken from the attacks they have made on religion. You are a Muslim, the esteemed House is Muslim. We all know what kind of brutal attacks they have made on religion. They are incapable of humanity. Those who are incapable of the human mind, Sir! I think this was an anti-Islamic package. Are these prophetic qualities? God forbid, I apologize for saying this, but I would say that this was the toilet of the human mind. The way they have hurt the Islamic world. Sir! We have reviewed their autumn-stricken emotions and original ideas. Sir! We have weighed all their cunning. We have not weighed it on the political scale. This is a matter of our religion, a matter of the religion of all my brothers. You know a storm has risen in your country over this issue. Our life It is not valuable, our country is valuable, our nation is valuable. And then that country and nation is merely beholden to the philosophy for the protection of which nature has appointed it. You This review takes into account how your country broke, who broke it, and the worst of it The conspiracy was still there. If you allow me, then those sentences of Sheikh Mujib which I heard first I want to convey it to this esteemed House. His words are: "This syndicate of Qadyani Generals and the ruling bureaucratic clique_ this clique of pythons is not going to transfer this power to me. They want to put me behind the bar. They would like to fight the aimless battle and ultimately they will surrender before the enemy and not before their majority." So gentlemen! What was this conspiracy in the end? The brothers of our East Pakistan were completely were aware of it, but we unfortunate people of this region did not understand that we are wage earners We are going to suffer so much humiliation from our employees, we did not even review that those People whom you pay salary, as a nation, the treasury is yours, the kingdom is yours You earn, the treasury is yours, you fill it yourself, what could be more humiliation than this for us? What will happen to the unfortunate people, that our salaried employees will humiliate us, push us If we are deported, they will make us a satellite of India. Gentlemen! I will further request you in this regard that at this time The hypocritical enemy like India is at the forefront in the conspiracy under consideration. God forbid, they also want to plunder West Pakistan. His policy is that he Reach the heads of Arab countries and Iran so that they can tell the Arab countries, Baba! These dollars Pick it up and keep it in India's coffers, now we are the leaders of Asia and Africa, and also the big navy. We will build, we will build large armies too, your protection is now in the hands of a very large secular power. Sir! This is the fort in the Islamic world that is a barrier in their ambitions. This was the Pakistan that prevented the fascism of India from the East and West from reaching Islam. This is the Pakistan in which you are sitting. This is the remaining Pakistan that, as a result of these immoral characters, only this remaining Pakistan is left. Sir! You must have heard the speech of the Prime Minister of Israel that paths can be paved in West Pakistan. It was a city near Paris, the speech of 1967 by David Ben-Gurion. That unfortunate has died. This is his speech. He expressed that a secular country like India, which is the worst enemy of a religious and fanatical country like Pakistan, is such fertile land for us that the first stand we take to break Pakistan into pieces, our bases will be established there. Sir! India is the essence of Israel, Qadian and Riah. The epitome of cunning and Tel Aviv. This intelligence and knowledge and wisdom that they have mentioned, we have seen. We can easily say that they were the epitome of certified ignorance and the embodiment of authentic foolishness. We have pondered, their knowledge and intelligence is nothing. This is the essence of India and Israel, and they get money from there and this is where their whole business runs from. Their system of life, or their system of work, the whole reliance is on foreign capital. Now I will make a brief request to you, I apologize if there has been length in my submissions, Sir! Now at this time, you should review the internal and external situation of your country. We have heard their events, we have seen them as a religion and also as an enemy. Sir! There is no 6044 It is not a secret that we have already responded to their signed affidavit. My brothers on this side have also given arguments, and honorable members will also deliver speeches, and it is possible that I have not been able to fully express my submissions, and incidentally I have not been able to express many things that have slipped my mind. So I would request that I would appeal to the Government Party with great humility regarding a conspiracy that has been going on for ninety (90) years, that this is not my personal matter, this is our common heritage. Every Muslim is the heir of Islam. This is our inheritance. This sect, which is openly a sect, this sect whose performance is also open, if it was underground, it has come to the fore. I would request that while giving its decision, this honorable House should not give an ambiguous decision, it should not be a vague decision at all, because outside our distressed brothers will have their suffering increased, the public peace of our country will be disrupted, bloodshed will become inevitable in our country. To understand all these things, keeping all these subtleties in mind, we should go towards those positive results that our decision is positive, and a clear decision. Their name should be in it, their beliefs should be in it, the interpretation of the movement should be in it, and then the interpretation of beliefs should be there, so that an ambiguous decision does not give rise to any suspicion among the public. Therefore, I request this honorable House that you have heard these things. We have, with great bitterness and subject to our decorum, and in the name of Allah and Allah's beloved ﷺ, also given justice to a minority, listen to it too, listen to its views too, so we, Sir! willingly and unwillingly, reluctantly, tolerated all those things. And the events are before you. Now the request is that this extremely complex issue, which is seemingly complex, but the moment you QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2823 God willing, if this is resolved, you will see that wherever their boards have gone in the Islamic world, or your reasoned judgments have gone as far as Canada and America, they will realize upon hearing your voice that you have killed a very large crocodile, a very large python. So, the decision should be such that in Islamic countries outside Pakistan as well as in the rest of the world, our true reality, in view of what matters and what events we have crushed an enemy, we are not murderers of minorities, God forbid, Islam orders to protect their rights. If they pay Jizya, then protect their lives, property, and honor. You must protect them, but after they are declared a non-Muslim minority. Our Ministry of Foreign Affairs, our embassies, it will also be their job to give publicity to all these events in a correct manner from the press there so that the world does not say that we are murderers or that we have taken away human rights or that we have violated the charter of the United Nations or the international system. In view of this, as you have seen, various letters are coming against us from different directions, their organization is sending them. They have offices and organizations everywhere. So, when it is told about them in the Islamic countries that this is the group that, sitting in Israel, gave the secrets of the Arab world to Israel. Sabotaged Indonesia, sabotaged Pakistan, sitting everywhere they are doing their antagonistic, deceitful, and cunning propaganda against the Islamic world. At this time, our situation has become quite tarnished. Since no one knows outside, they think that perhaps we are doing injustice by taking unilateral action. So, therefore, sir! Our decision should be a positive and strong decision so that our nation is happy. After that, the prestige of our nation abroad should be elevated. It should not fall from any foreign propaganda or their propaganda. With these submissions, I thank you. 2824 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [2nd Sep, 1914 Mr. Chairman Malik Karam Bakhsh Awan Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan, Sir! I am not feeling well, I will do it tomorrow. Mr. Chairman: At least start. Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan: No, Sir! Please, I will speak tomorrow. Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow, there will be less time. Any honourable member who would like to say something? None. So we shall meet tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. and shall continue up to 1:30 p.m. The Special Committee of the Whole House adjourned to meet at nine of the clock, in the morning, on Tuesday, the 3rd September, 1974. PCPPI-1158(10)NA-21-4-2011-450. THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Tuesday, the 3rd September, 1974 (Containing Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS 1. Recitation from the Holy Qur'an. 2. Qadiani Issue - General Discussion-(Continued) Pages 2827 2827-2924 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD No. 19 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 400 PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Tuesday, the 3rd September, 1974 (Contain Nos. 1-21) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Tuesday, September 3rd, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at nine o'clock in the morning, with Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Sahibzada Safiullah: Mr. Chairman! I want to submit one thing, that there have been mistakes in the reporting of the digest and report that we have before us. I think that if the Attorney General himself corrects a copy of it and returns it, it will be suitable for printing and it will be very good. Mr. Chairman: They are preparing five copies. The copies that have been given to you are not correct. We are trying. They are preparing five copies. They will also be corrected by the Attorney General. Sahibzada Safiullah: It would be good if the Attorney General does it himself. Mr. Chairman: I tried very hard for the members to arrive on time, but it did not happen. Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan: I am extremely grateful for your kindness. As per my promise, I had arrived early, Dr. Muhammad Shafi is a witness to this. 2827 September 3, 1974 Mr. Chairman: I know it was nine o'clock. I was waiting for at least twenty members to arrive. These Mehrban who are sitting here, they would have come even if you hadn't made a speech. (Interruption) Chaudhary Ghulam Rasool Tarar: Mr. Chairman! I think that time is being wasted. You could have passed the resolution from the members and sent it, and a decision would have been made. Mr. Chairman: No, no. Every member has the right to express their opinion. We cannot stop them at all. Does this mean that we listened to them for a month and read two written books? Malik Karam Bakhsh Awan! Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan: Muhammadan wa Nusalli Ala Rasoolihil Kareem. Honorable Sir! I have carefully read the affidavit given by Mirza Nasir Ahmad, Imam of the Mirza'i community of Rabwah, and I have also listened very carefully to the literal meanings and interpretations that he made during the ten days of cross-examination. Similarly, I have also read the explanatory statement of the Lahori party and have listened carefully to their literal meanings and interpretations as well. As far as I understand, their aim is to have the Mirzais recognized as a sect of Muslims, and to continue hunting the Muslim nation in the same way they have been doing for ninety years, appealing in the name of Islam and using the weapons of the Quran and Hadith to slaughter the Muslims. This is a political organization and a product of the British. Why did the British feel the need to plant this seed? If William Hunter's book "The Indian Musalman" is read, it becomes clear why the British needed to plant this seed and what the problem was at that time. This book refers to Hazrat Syed Ahmad Barelvi, who had launched a movement after the decline of the Mughal dynasty. That movement had weakened, but its traces still remained. These Mujahideen had the English... 2829 QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 1974 fought wars in 1863 and 1868, in which thousands of Englishmen were killed, and Muslims were also held responsible for the mutiny of 1857. This book was actually a report in which the cases of rebellion against Muslims and the wars of Jihad by Muslims are mentioned. Hunter was worried that although this movement has been suppressed, the freedom fighters can wage war again by chanting the slogan of Jihad at any time because they have considered India as Darul-Harb. Until some remedy is taken to remove Muslims from Jihad, we cannot have peace. The Quran teaches the Muslim nation that it cannot remain a slave to anyone. Therefore, some remedy must be taken to remove Muslims from Jihad. In those days, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad announced two things: (1) Abolish Jihad. (2) He announced obedience to the rulers (i.e., obedience to the British). In this, the condition of "Min Kum" was removed. But the command in the Holy Quran is: وَقَاتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّىٰ لَا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ لِلَّهِ ۖ فَإِنِ انْتَهَوْا فَلَا عُدْوَانَ إِلَّا عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ Surah Al-Baqarah - 193 Translation: And fight them until there is no more fitnah (discord, persecution) and the religion is for Allah alone. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. In another verse, Surah Taubah, Allah Almighty says: إِنَّ اللَّهَ اشْتَرَىٰ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَنْفُسَهُمْ وَأَمْوَالَهُمْ بِأَنَّ لَهُمُ الْجَنَّةَ ۚ يُقَاتِلُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَيَقْتُلُونَ وَيُقْتَلُونَ ۖ وَعْدًا عَلَيْهِ حَقًّا فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ وَالْقُرْآنِ ۚ وَمَنْ أَوْفَىٰ بِعَهْدِهِ مِنَ اللَّهِ ۚ فَاسْتَبْشِرُوا بِبَيْعِكُمُ الَّذِي بَايَعْتُمْ بِهِ ۚ وَذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ (Surah Taubah) NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Sep., 1974 Translation: Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties in exchange for Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment. Meaning: According to the Holy Quran, just as prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, and charity are obligatory upon us, so is Jihad. And by declaring the order regarding Jihad as abrogated, they have committed misguidance. O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. Translation: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. The condition is "from among you." Follow those who are from among us, meaning follow those who are Muslims. It is not that you follow a Sikh, or an Englishman, or a Jew, or anyone else. That is not the instruction here. The instruction is to follow those who are from among you. In this way, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has abrogated and amended the Quran in many places, and has distorted the translation, which was asked of him during the cross-examination here. So, Mr. Speaker! I only draw your attention to the fact that since we have to present this report, the members of the Assembly have closely observed the manner and style of these witnesses, and how they used to make interpretations like false witnesses. Therefore, as I mentioned earlier, I have given a statement, and it is signed by me. Therefore, I do not want to prolong my speech. These two or three references I have presented in its support are: (1) Therefore, they are misguided; they should be declared a non-Muslim minority. (2) They should be immediately removed from key positions, or else there will be harm, and (3) Rabwah should be declared an open city, and they should not be allowed to exercise the right to establish their own states, like they have done. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi! Sahibzada Safiullah: Sir! I also want to speak for five minutes. Mr. Chairman: Professor Ghafoor Sahib, please come. I have spoken to him, and he says that he wants to take five minutes, and he says that no one else from his party will speak after him. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi! Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Mr. President! Many speeches have been made regarding the Mirzais, many have been made, and no honorable member seems to be in favor of the Mirzais. We have presented a bill in which we have moved that they should be declared a non-Muslim minority and that Rabwah should be declared an open city and that they should be kept away from key positions. In the importance of this bill, we have presented a book. By reading this book, everyone will know the true nature of the Mirzais. In this book, it is stated that, in my opinion, there can be no person in the world as bad as Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, who writes a letter to Queen Victoria of India and requests her to write a royal word for him. Claim of Prophethood, claim of the Promised Messiah, claim of Mosque and all claims. I say that there is no person about whose coming there is news in any book, and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani did not try to become that person. There are traditions about the Mahdi, and the authentic traditions are continuous. We write our beliefs in books. He said that he is that person. Regarding Jesus, I have presented nine verses of the Quran; I have interpreted the Quran with the Quran. The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions have interpreted them in the same way. The revivalists of twelve hundred years have given them the same meaning. Let him answer them. I challenge him. There was news of Krishna. Haris was born, and he said that he is that person. A Brahmin, he is also that person. Whomever was mentioned in any book, he said that he is that person. He took undue advantage of people's ignorance. In any case, he flattered the British. No self-respecting noble person can write the letter that he wrote to the Queen Empress of India, let alone a Muslim. There is a mention of a king that an impersonator tried to deceive a king but was not successful. He started asceticism at a distance of two or three miles. He also got disciples. In Lahore, a person claimed divinity. He became all of Lahore. His wife became Rahni. People accepted him. In this country, if anyone claims prophethood, some people will accept him. This is only the result of ignorance, this is only the result of foolishness. In any case, two people became mendicants. As he gained fame, the king heard about him. These kings are very thirsty for prayers so that their power remains. The king went to him. He offered a bag of gold coins. The mendicant refused. The king came back. He changed his clothes and came to the king and said, "Look who has deceived you." So he asked for a reward. The king said that I myself came to you with a bag of gold coins, but you did not take it. What reward should I give now? He said that in the guise I was in, that bag also did not exist. 914 QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2833 Now, he has made this false claim. All his claims were false. But he He did not even maintain this false pretense. are. After this, much has been written about Jihad. And all these interpretations that Nasir Ahmad and others have made are all wrong. He said that Jihad was strict in the time of Moses. Presence In the time of , there was no strictness in Jihad and there was some leniency, and in the time of the Promised Messiah, it was completely stopped. went. In fact, he wanted to end it by reaching his end. He was very flattering. He wrote to the Queen Empress of India. More than that, I have never given a damn, neither a letter nor seen or read it. I am one I will read you a prophetic letter. Hazrat Suleiman wrote a letter to Balqis. It is written in it. It is described in the Quran: -. (Arabic) This is a prophetic letter. "Do not rebel against me and come willingly." 2 First just say this (Arabic) After that, he only wrote that: (Arabic) He writes a letter of 22 pages. Lieutenant General Sahib Bahadur, Daim Iqbal, this "Waim Iqbal drowned his prophethood. No, he has written this to you many times, he has even written that you Write a royal word for me once. Has requested. This is a Zionist sect. It is more poisonous to Muslims than Jews. This is a snake in the grass. Jews are clear are infidels. Our enemies, but these are hidden. Snakes. In the time of the British After going to Baghdad, Iraq, they lit lamps. They expressed opinions against Muslim countries, and when Pakistan was formed, they caused damage even then. Mirza Nasir Ahmad said in the commission that he participated at the request of the Muslim League. I say, why did you give them time out of the Muslims' time? Zafarullah himself was in it. He said in the Munir Commission that when Liaquat Ali used to go on tours, the Prime Ministership was with me. I claim, in any case, he is the plaintiff and used to reach even petty matters. I know that a man was murdered in Mansehra. Me and Master Tajuddin Sahib went to Governor of Frontier, Shahabuddin, in Peshawar, who was Nizamuddin's brother. We talked about showing some leniency towards the murderer. The murdered man was actually a Mirza'i. He started praising Zafarullah Khan. In front of us was the Governor of Frontier, and praises of Zafarullah Khan. Zafarullah Khan was all-powerful, nothing could be said against him. It is Zafarullah Khan's kindness that when he went to the Boundary Commission, the role he played confirms the Messenger of Allah. What the Prophet said, that after me, in my Ummah, these who call themselves Ummah prophets, this is what the Prophet had foretold, that from my Ummah, they will claim prophethood. These Ummah prophets, about them, the Prophet said that they will be liars and deceivers. So they went there, the statement they gave, it is a confirmation of how truthful the Prophet was, and how truthful and trustworthy a prophet he was. They became liars because they said that these Muslims are infidels. We and they are completely separate. This claim was made in the Gurdaspur district, that ordinary Muslims are separate from us. We and they are not one nation, he emphasized this and used deceit and deception. How did he demonstrate being a deceiver? And in the end, he wrote that, in any case, we want to be affiliated with Pakistan. This was written at the end for deception, written for fraud. He gave this to the commission. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2835 They stated that we are separate and the number of Muslims in this district is low. They stung after Pakistan was formed; they stung while Pakistan was being created. And this is the result of all the wars in Kashmir; this was the reason for the constant conflict with India. In reality, they are agents. I will mention one thing, which some may not know. In the name of 313 dervishes, Mirzais go to Qadian to protect Mirza's grave, and in comparison, 313 Sikhs come to protect the Gurdwara, which is in Nankana Sahib, Sheikhupura district. 313 Mirzais stay there to protect Mirza's grave. They neither stay there, nor do they go to Ajmer, nor do they go to any other holy place, but they go to protect Mirza's grave and bones. What is this? Here, we say that a pilgrimage occurs. People go to the shrines of some saints and their needs continue to be fulfilled, so it is said that their pilgrimage occurs. So, these Mirzais' pilgrimage occurs for the protection of Mirza's bones. 313 Sikhs come here and they are regularly exchanged. If this is not known, then I want to say it, and if it still exists, then it should be ended. These are agents, and if people come and go in groups of 313, which secret of your country can remain hidden? These are all spies. Those who go there are replaced daily. These are spies. Those who come from there are spies, and those who go from here are spies. So, they have never done any good to the Muslims. This is a dangerous sect within Muslims in the name of Muslims. Will any Muslim trust them? Will any nation trust them? Will any individual trust them? If the government trusts them, it will be deceived. I say this with conviction and am ready to say it in front of everyone. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 At this time, we have reached a stage where the eyes of the world are on us, the eyes of the Muslim countries are on us, all Muslim governments, Arab governments are watching us and waiting for our decision. I know that our nation is wise. It will not do anything that would harm the country, but despite that, the whole nation wants this snake in the sleeve to be crushed. And why not crush it? We refer this matter to the government. But I also say that when they call us infidels and we call them infidels, and this is written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that there is no government among the Muslim kingdoms that does not call us infidels, this is written by Mirza and this was written before 1908. Mirza has said that all Muslim governments are thirsty for our blood. We cannot preach anywhere, we cannot present our beliefs, they consider us infidels. This was written by Mirza himself, and Nasir Ahmad presented things against himself, what decrees of disbelief the Muslims have imposed on us. On this occasion, I think it is appropriate to tell you one of their deceptions. They called all the Muslims of the world infidels and then hid it in such a way that they first called them infidels, so whoever calls a Muslim an infidel becomes an infidel himself. What a strange pretense they have created. You claim divinity, everyone will call you an infidel. When they call you an infidel, you say, "We did not call them infidels, nor did we become infidels ourselves by calling us infidels." This is a strange pretense and method you have devised to make Muslims infidels. You make them infidels because they do not believe in your prophethood, they do not believe in your messiah, they consider you a liar and an imposter. You say that since they called me an infidel, they themselves became infidels. You claim divinity, you claim prophethood, you become better than the whole world, you deceive the Muslims, then people will not call you an infidel? If someone says so, say that they have called me an infidel, therefore they have become infidels. Then no one will call you an infidel? QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2837 My purpose is that the things they have presented here, the excuses for lying they have presented, they have hidden the matter. Now the whole world knows that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani explicitly called the people of his time infidels. So when he called them infidels and wrote that not believing in me is not believing in the Quran and Hadith, denying me is denying the Quran and Hadith, denying me is denying God and the Messenger. So now I ask Nasir Ahmad, in what category does one who denies God fall? Is it in your minor infidelity or major infidelity? Now Nasir Ahmad has interpreted that we call Muslims infidels, but we call them minor infidels, not major infidels, and what deception and deceit is this? Until today, what we understood by the meaning of "so-and-so is outside the circle of Islam" was that Islam is a circle, it has boundaries. Whoever crosses those boundaries will be out of Islam. The matter was clear. He said that there is a small circle and he is out of it. This is what he interpreted and invented a new meaning. They were masters at inventing new meanings. The meaning he has given to "completion of argument" is completely wrong. The meaning of completion of argument that Mirza Nasir Ahmad has given is that present your case with arguments, invite to the Oneness of God, the Prophethood, or invite to the truth and give arguments. His heart accepts that you are on the right path, he considers you truthful and then denies, then he is out of the fold. This was the completion of the argument. Whereas the Holy Quran does not have this meaning of completion of argument. The Holy Quran said that We sent prophets so that no one could say: (Arabic) That a warner did not come to us. A warner is sufficient for the completion of the argument. The coming of the Prophet and giving the invitation is sufficient for the completion of the argument. In another place, it is stated: (Arabic) That We sent prophets. The names of the prophets have come in the first verse. A warner, a bearer of warnings, a giver of good news, so that the argument may be completed for the people. God's argument may be established on the people. 2838 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (3rd Sep., 1974 That's why (it was) sent. It is not necessary that (someone) rejects the prophet by considering him truthful. Yes, there can be people who understand him to be truthful but still don't accept (him), don't accept (him) out of prejudice, don't accept (him) out of stubbornness, don't accept (him) out of obstinacy. There can be such people but this thing is not included in the meaning of "completion of proof." This (statement) is a deception of the nation by Nasir Ahmed. So, in any case, I admit that you have studied Arabic. I admit that you have studied English, but you hide the religion and you fulfill the words of your grandfather, you have earned so many crores of rupees. The land of Rabwah is endowed in the name of Anjuman Ahmadiyya, you are using it personally and you don't register it and you take money from people and sell the same land? You have built heavenly graveyards, started a prophetic business and you have become a millionaire. I say that the deal is not in your favor. You have destroyed your entire generation till the Day of Judgment, for a few pennies. So, in any case, what I wanted to say was that I admit that you are educated. These poor Lahoris who came, they were completely blank in knowledge. At that time, in their statement, they wrote Shifa and read Shifa with a zabar. Whereas this word is Shifa in Arabic, like Qital happens, like Kahal happens, like Mawajabat al-Raja happens, like Muqabala and Irtibal happen. Similarly, Shifa and Mushafahah, this is the word Shifa. They wrote Shifa and read Shifa. In front of this House, I drew their attention to the fact that in such and such a line that you have written or in such and such a page that you have written in the thirteenth line, read it again, is this correct? I did not take the name of the place nor did I mention the word. They took out that line, then read it and said that it was correct. I said read it carefully, the thirteenth line is on such and such page, is it written correctly or is there any mistake? There was definitely a mistake in it. VADIAN DOO Laras 2829 (Arabic) That the fortieth part of Prophethood means only good dreams. What is the rest of Prophethood? Prophethood Is a very high station. The relationship between the Creator and the creation becomes apparent there. The issue of destiny unfolds there. A certificate of knowledge is obtained there. The stages of gnosis are found there. That Prophethood is what invites the public towards God. What is that dialogue? How does one talk to God? That Prophethood Is a very high station that is much higher than our understanding and perception, so its forty-sixth part is good visions, righteous dreams. Now when the Prophet was asked what the meaning of "Mubashirat" is, The Prophet ﷺ said that it is a good dream that a Muslim sees, or someone else sees for him - this is The Prophet's ﷺ translation. The translation that Abu Al-Ata did of "Mubashirat," the heralds who brought the good news of Paradise, Means that the translation he did is against the translation of the Messenger of Allah ﷺ. This Abu al-'Ata who used to come here With Vand, and a book of his that he presented as an appendix in response to the finality of Prophethood, Also contains many wrong things - he is the "Sultan of Errors". In any case, I wanted to say that they repeatedly read "Allah Al-Azim" here. This Lahori Party read it. However, the word is "Wallah Al-Azim". The "Wa" is a preposition; it comes for every kind, it Makes the object passive. Like "Wallah" "Billah Allah", a 'Zair' is read. He read "Wallah Al-Azim." Finally, I got up and said to the president that we get a headache. They are unnecessarily Reading it wrong. You Should instruct them to read it correctly. That in the time of Zafarullah, it was Zafarullah's Government. Similarly, foreign powers spoke to them. At that time, our foreign policy Was not what it is now. These are the words of Nazimuddin: If I remove Zafarullah, then America ARSAN [3rd Sep., 1974 Pakistan will stop giving wheat. As if the wheat was going to Zafarullah and not Pakistan. Therefore, how can I dismiss Zafarullah. There is a junction between Lahore and Chiniot, I can't remember the name right now, four Muslims were killed there. Zafarullah came and got the Mirzais released. He released the murderers of Muslims. This is such a big devil but it was not their fault, they only had that much knowledge. And they were made preachers. They preach in Europe, about Islam, and they blurted out that we preach, we mention the finality of prophethood, that no prophet can come after the Holy Prophet. The actual meaning of the teaching of the Holy Prophet is that no new or old prophet can come. Meaning Jesus (peace be upon him) died, and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the one to replace him. This is the whole preaching. They kept preaching for sixty years, no benefit came of it. Mr. Chairman: Maulana! Please try to finish, because we have already listened to a 260-page book. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: I will make it brief. Mr. Chairman: Those who have books have been given a little time. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: No, I have one book left which is in response to the Lahori party. It has been given to the press. Maybe it will be printed today. I have complied with your order regarding that, otherwise this is the book. Mr. Chairman: That is for the next assembly. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Anyway, I will make it brief. As you say, so my point is... • IAD (3rd Sep., 1974 What meanings did they give to the verses of the Quran, what alterations did they make, what meanings did the Companions give? What meanings did the twelve hundred Mujaddids give? Nowadays, you do not present the decision of a court as evidence, but the decision of the High Court regularly becomes law. But thirteen hundred Mujaddids, the Mujaddid of the thirteenth century, the fourteenth century, Mirza is the Mujaddid of 13 centuries, the Mujaddids they acknowledge, whose list they have written and given in their book. We have written everything in the book, we have referenced those Mujaddids, we have said what meanings they gave to those verses, so after the High Court meanings, the interpretation of the law ends, there can be no other interpretation of the law. But for a minute, I assume that if Jesus (peace be upon him) died, prophethood continues, suppose it does. Every Tom, Dick and Harry, anyone at all, gets up and says that I am a prophet again. I am the Messiah. Please think about it. Just look at the childish actions of Mirza Sahib that we have written about. I read a letter of Hazrat Suleiman (peace be upon him). I will read out to you a letter of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) which is in Bukhari. What a tragedy. You (peace be upon him) wrote to Heraclius, the King of Rome (Arabic). This is the title. Further in the letter it is written: (Arabic) Become a Muslim, and you will be safe. Otherwise, the burden of your sin will be upon you and also upon those who follow you. This is a majestic letter, this is a prophetic letter. As equal to a devil's gut, Daam-e-Iqbal, Daam-e-Iqbalha, Daam-e-Iqbalha. He wrote a letter. My father gave 50 mares, my brother gave a dome, which was a great help during the Sikh rebellion. I was a pauper. I was poor. No other service could be done by me. I wrote 50 shelves of books and sent them to all Islamic countries. It is forbidden to fight the British, Jihad is forbidden. I could only do this service. And I claim with certainty that no one is more well-wishing of this government than me and my family. This is the only true thing Mirza has written, that no one can be more loyal to the British than him. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION So my point is, they believe in Jesus Christ, they believe in the Promised Messiah, both the Lahori and the Qadiani. And then they deny physical ascension, the Lahori just like the Qadiani deny it, just like Mirza denies it. Mirza has written, "Masjid Atmani, this is my mosque" of Qadian. Which is in the Quran: (Arabic). Mirza has written in his books that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is mine. This saying of Mirza is recorded in Tabligh-e- Risalat, Volume 9. And in it, he has written that this Al-Aqsa Mosque is my mosque, and that minaret near which Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) [will descend], that is the same minaret, the Minaratul Masih, which I have built. Here, please allow me a moment. There was an enema patient, he would take a water pot with him when he went to the toilet to clean himself. The enema patient often suffered from constipation. There was a hole in the pot. So by the time he was done [defecating], the water would drip out and be finished. The enema patient would get very angry. So one day he filled the pot with water, went inside. First, he cleaned himself, then he started patching [the hole]. He said, "You rascal. Let me see you drip now." (laughter). So first he cleaned himself, and later started arranging things in the toilet. Did Mirza descend first from Chiragh Bibi or in Qadian? Mr. Chairman: I think that's enough, you've reached the toilet. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: So the minaret was built later. The word "minaret" has no meaning. Damascus means Qadian. "Minaret" means the Minaratul Masih. A. Baab-ul-Allah means Ludhiana. And Jesus Christ means Ghulam Ahmad. Mary means... Mr. Chairman: It is written in it, it is inside it. A riddle of Pakistan (3rd Sep., 1974 Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Yes, it is written inside it. I endorse this and conclude. And I move in favor of my bill that both Lahori Mirzais and Qadianis be declared non-Muslim minorities. No weak result should come. I tell you truthfully that the entire Islamic world is waiting for your decision. All the subjects are waiting for this decision of yours. All countries will be affected by it. Let me submit, I have submitted to a great personality that their propaganda is in the name of Islam abroad. If they are declared a non-Muslim minority today , their propaganda will not even be two percent, it will all be खत्म (finished). Their propaganda is in the name of Islam. Then Muslim countries understand, rather not just Muslims, what propaganda will be against you. Whatever the policy of Russia and America will be, it will be their old policy. Whatever the policy of China will be, it will be their old policy. Today they are getting their men to send wires. This is their deception. This affects you. You, with strength, with bravery, fearlessly, the assembly has given you the same order that you are the trustees of God, you are the trustees of the nation. You have formally government, but the Prime Minister has entrusted this to you that what does the Assembly decide? Decide in the light of Islam. Your nation wants, the nation you represent, this nation wants, the Islamic world wants, the whole world is watching, do not be lenient about this. This leniency will cost you dearly. In the end, I support and endorse this bill. (Arabic). Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed, absolutely, you should speak. Those who have written two hundred and fifty page books have given speeches for one hour each. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2845 Professor Ghafoor Ahmed: Mr. Chairman! This is the second major challenge that we face today in the approximately 30-month term of this Assembly. The first challenge before this esteemed House was the drafting of a permanent constitution for the country. It is a fact that despite the passage of a quarter of a century, our country was deprived of a constitution. This task was entrusted to this Assembly to create a permanent constitution for this country. You, Mr. Chairman, will recall that in those days there were serious differences between the ruling party and the opposition parties on certain fundamental principles. But despite these differences, we thank Allah Almighty that He, by His grace, granted us the ability to end our differences and to codify a permanent constitution for the country and to succeed in doing so with complete unity. In this way, we accepted this challenge and then lived up to it. I hope that, God willing, this constitution that we have passed will one day be implemented in this country in its true spirit. Sir! The second challenge for us today is the finality of Prophethood. I think this is not a new task. In fact, it is an important link in the work of constitution-making, the completion of which remains. There is a welcome difference between the work of the constitution and this work, that today the entire committee of the House is working in unison and with complete solidarity. Today there are no parties here, today there are no opposition and ruling parties sitting here, but all the members of a committee are doing this work with complete unity and consensus. I think that if I say this, I will probably be rightly expressing the sentiments of the people that as far as this issue is concerned, no member disagrees on this issue, but the people of the ruling party are no less active than any other member in any way. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Sep., 1974 During this three-month long period, all aspects of this issue, whether religious, economic, or financial, have been thoroughly illuminated. We have also taken statements from witnesses. We have also seen their answers. After that, Mr. Chairman! I believe that the committee needs to find solutions to four questions. First, is there any difference in belief between the Rabwah and Lahore groups? If so, what is it? Secondly, what amendments should be made to the constitution to resolve this issue permanently and in a better way? Thirdly, is any legislation necessary in light of the amendment to the constitution? If so, what is it? Fourthly, what administrative measures should we take immediately or gradually to put matters on the right track? As far as the first matter is concerned, that is, the difference between the Rabwah and Lahore groups. From the literature provided by both parties and their answers, it has become absolutely clear, without any doubt, that there is absolutely no difference between them in the matter of belief. Both consider Mirza to be the promised Messiah, both consider Mirza to be a prophet, in whatever sense they may consider him. Both say that those who do not believe in Mirza Sahib are infidels, no matter what degree of infidel they are. Both confirm that such infidels cannot be true Muslims. Therefore, I would be perfectly justified in understanding that the issue is not a difference of belief, but an issue of obtaining the seat of power, to achieve worldly interests, nothing else is visible. Although the Lahore group is very small in number, Mr. Chairman, I believe that the way they deceive more, the way they mix more with Muslims, they are more dangerous to Muslims than the Rabwah group. Apparently, they present their own... QADIAN DOULTOWA They try to present their beliefs to the nation by disguising and sweetening them. Therefore, I think the committee will also agree with me that the matter of belief is exactly the same for both. Both groups present the concept of the Promised Messiah. Such a thing is not found in Islamic literature. They have also borrowed this concept from Christianity. And Christianity, which planted this plant, has watered it to the point of bearing fruit and becoming a tree. The second matter, sir! Then comes the matter of amendments. After almost three months of doing this work and listening to ridiculous interpretations of the finality of prophethood, no one in this country can be satisfied that the belief in the finality of prophethood has been further explained in the constitution. In my opinion, this can never be enough. After all this tireless effort of three months, the nation believes that it is absolutely necessary to explicitly state in the constitution through an amendment that those who believe in Mirza, in whatever form they believe in him, whether they consider him their religious leader, the Promised Messiah, a reformer, a Muhaddith, or anything else, such people are non-Muslims and they are not Muslims, because they themselves call us infidels for not believing in Mirza. Based on this, I think that if an attempt is made to merely define without naming them, saying that such and such people are not Muslims, then the matter may become more complicated and serious, and the nation will not be satisfied with it. Thirdly, after the amendment in the constitution of the country, necessary legislation should be done and it should be seen in which laws there is a need for amendment. I do not want to go into more detail because the Assembly's guiding committee will also guide in this matter. But I will definitely say that after this, there will be a need to amend numerous laws. And amendment to the constitution Tafa Sep 1974 After this, it is necessary to immediately arrange for their census to be conducted without delay, because both the Lahori group and those in Rabwah have stated in their statements that they do not have accurate knowledge of the number of their followers. Although, I do not understand how such an organized group does not know how many followers they have. Although they say that according to their estimate, their number in Pakistan is 3.5 or 4 million, and about 10 million worldwide. Mr. Speaker! If they say that we are thirty-forty lakhs in Pakistan and one crore in the world, then we We have nothing to do with the world. But we would definitely like to know what their number is in Pakistan right now. For this purpose, their census should be conducted and it should be done without any delay. This is a basic thing that should be done without any hesitation. Mr. Speaker! The fourth stage is the administrative matters that the government has to solve. I state this very clearly that our purpose is not at all to deprive the followers of Mirza of their legitimate rights, as they are propagating all over the world today that billions of dollars of properties that they have earned in Pakistan, the Muslims of Pakistan want to take away from them, want to usurp them. I declare that no Muslim of Pakistan wants to take away their property without any right. Every person in the world can study the Constitution of Pakistan, and I say without fear of contradiction that the Constitution of Pakistan has given minorities equal status before the law for their protection. The articles and provisions we have made in the Constitution to protect their lives, property and honor, even the constitution of the most civilized country in the world cannot compete with our constitution. And then, Mr. Speaker! I want to say the second thing QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2849 The issue is not just about writing something in the constitution. As far as actions are concerned, all non-Muslim minorities will be compelled to testify that minorities in Pakistan have been treated not only fairly but generously, and will continue to be treated so, because our religion teaches us to protect minorities and treat them generously. What we really want to say is only that the things that the followers of Mirza have obtained in the past, exceeding their rights, and the way they have violated the rights of the deserving, should be thoroughly investigated, and after a full investigation, the government should take back from them the things that they possess without any right, because they have no right to them. In reality, this group wanted to become kingmakers and they wished that the law should not apply to them. Sir! We have been told that after the agricultural reforms law was passed, since they had supported the Pakistan Peoples Party, they demanded from the Pakistan Peoples Party that the agricultural reforms law should not be enforced on their lands. And similarly, they made another demand that the way educational institutions have been nationalized and reforms have been made in them, their schools and colleges should be exempted from it. And they wanted that their state within a state should exist inside Rabwah. Rather, wherever the followers of Mirza are present in Pakistan, they should have good positions, and the general laws of the country should not apply to them. Sir! Therefore, we want this privileged position that they have obtained, which has been obtained in a wrong way, to be abolished. To abolish this position, we say that they should be removed from key positions. They should be given as much share in jobs as their population ratio demands. 2850 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Sep., 1974 In the end, I submit that may Allah Almighty grant us insight and give us the courage to complete this matter in such a way that we can be successful in the eyes of Allah Almighty and the nation is also satisfied, thank you. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Dr. Mohammad Shafi: Maulana! Your turn will also come. You have to read from the book, and these are without the book. And those who are without the book will get more time. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali Sahib! Will you also speak today on the basis of cadre or just like that? Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Sir! On the basis of cadre. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Dr. Mohammad Shafi. Dr. Mohammad Shafi: Mr. Chairman, Sir, the issue started as "Khatm-i-Nabuwwat" but during our deliberations I think we have surveyed whole of the Mirzaiyat vis-a-vis Islam, and I being by nature inclined towards religion, have attended these meetings regularly and I have listened to them very attentively and I have drawn my own conclusions which may not be acceptable to other members, I do not know. In my opinion, they do not believe that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the last and the greatest Prophet. Both the groups believe Ghulam Ahmad as the last and the greatest prophet. This is my own reading. And, therefore, they do not take the life of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) as the model for them; they take the life of Ghulam Ahmad as the model for them. That means that they have got their own Sunnah which has nothing to do with our Sunnah. The story does not end there. They have got their own "Kalima", their own "Darood", their own Masjid-i-Aqsa and therefore their own "Qibla", and they have got their own site for Haj, and everything is different from us. They do not join us in the prayers; they do not join us even in "Janaza" prayers; they do not like to offer their daughters for marriage to us, although very cleverly they accept our daughters for their marriage. Now what is the end-result of that? That clearly means that they have themselves dissociated from the Muslims since the last 75 years, and it is a reality which already exists and we only have to recognize it. And you know, Sir, we all are very fond of recognizing the realities and let us recognize this reality also. Now, this is one aspect of the issue. The other is that they do not stop there. They have got a parallel Government running in Rabwa which in my opinion is virtually Vatican. They have got their own Ministries under the name of I think Nazirs" or some such thing-Nazir-i-Umoor-i-Kharja and Nazir-i-Umoor-i-Dakhila and such like things. They call themselves Nazirs. Now this thing is being helped by their hidden employees which we do not know in most cases. They are helped by the Qadiyanis who serve in our Departments. All the statistics and all the data are provided by them to that Government. [At this stage Mr. Speaker vacated the Chair which was occupied by Madam Deputy Speaker (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi] Dr. Mohammad Shafi: They have boasted that they are serving Islam in foreign countries. One example that they have given for that is that they saved the Muslims in Israel when the Israelis captured that territory. Well that may be so that they saved the Muslims there. But the question arises: who saved the Qadiyanis there? Well, somebody must have saved them. If the Jews have saved them, even they must have done so with certain motives, and those motives are to be judged by us. Having drawn these conclusions, what is the solution for that? The solution is, in which the whole House is unanimous, that we recognize the reality which is already existing. They have already dissociated themselves from us, and we only have to declare it to be so. But, In this case, I would leave it to the Government to take the national and international factors into consideration and then take the appropriate steps. Thank you. Madam Acting Chairman Chaudhry Jahangir Ali! Will you speak? Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Yes, I will speak. Madam Acting Chairman: Speak. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Madam Deputy Chairman! The current issue facing this special committee has both religious significance and political consequences attached to it. Regarding the situation that this issue created in the country after May 29, 1974, Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the Prime Minister, had already expressed his point of view on June 13, 1974, and keeping in view the interests of the country and the nation, he presented this issue to the largest institution of this country, the National Assembly, and the National Assembly, while deciding on its own, transformed itself into a special committee, and it has been almost two months since evidence was presented, statements were made, and cross-examination took place in this House regarding this issue. I will try to clarify what is proven by the evidence that has come on record. Have the parties been successful in proving their respective cases? Have the leaders of the Ahmadi community proven their case before this House? Have they defeated the case of the opposition, i.e., non-Ahmadi Muslims? Or have they failed to refute the claims of non-Ahmadi Muslims? And have they also failed to properly verify their own claims? Madam Deputy Chairman! I remember the atmosphere of 1970 when Mr. Zulfiqar Ali used to tour city after city and village after village to explain the manifesto of his party and to familiarize the poor people with politics, to create political understanding in them. I have often seen that Mr. Bhutto was often asked questions about religion and about the finality of Prophethood. was inquired about. In my own city, Sargodha, people had Mr. Bhutto swear on the Quran and asked him what his opinion was regarding the issue of the finality of prophethood. He had stated in clear words that he does not consider a person who does not believe in the finality of prophethood to be a Muslim, and that he himself is a Muslim who believes in the finality of prophethood. Mr. Deputy Chairman! Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto Sahib knew that there was a constitutional crisis in this country and that the country had been running without a constitution for many years. Mr. Bhutto promised the people that he would not only give them a public constitution but also an Islamic constitution. He was also convinced that in order to create an Islamic constitution, if the maximum number of members of the National Assembly were Muslims and Muslims with correct beliefs, then we could give this country an undisputed type of Islamic constitution with consensus. Mr. Deputy Chairman! Perhaps this was the reason why Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto did not give his party ticket to any Ahmadi or Qadiani for the National Assembly, and today we can proudly say that 100% of the members of this House believe in the finality of prophethood and they believe in it. This is the reason why we have given this country a public and Islamic constitution with consensus, and in this Islamic constitution, we have also protected the concept of the finality of prophethood, and if I read out the text of the Third Schedule of the constitution in front of you, it will become clear that the finality of prophethood has been protected in clear words in it, and the person who does not take an oath of belief and faith in the finality of prophethood cannot call himself a Muslim, nor can he sit on the presidential chair, nor can he be seated on the chair of the prime minister. Mr. Deputy Chairman, as far as religious belief is concerned, a lot of literature on this During the proceedings, members of the National Assembly from various Islamic and Ahmadi faiths came and we tried to benefit from them as much as possible. In addition to this, Honorable Members of the National Assembly, Maulana Mufti Mahmood, Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi Sahib, and Maulana Abdul Hakeem Sahib recited a statement of Islamic belief before this committee. In terms of belief, I agree one hundred percent with both of their statements, but if we were to decide solely on the statements of our scholars and their sermons, then the Lahori group and the Rabwah group should not have been allowed to present their point of view before this assembly at all. By listening to the sermon, we could have decided at that time whether these people are Muslims or non-Muslims. But because the requirement of justice is that before giving a verdict against any other party, you must hear them out and listen to their excuses. This is the requirement of natural justice and good conscience. Mr. Deputy Chairman, the reason why Qadiani leaders were allowed to present their point of view in this assembly is that they themselves demanded that before a decision is made, they should be allowed to appear before the assembly and clarify their position and their beliefs. During the cross-examination of their statements, I tried to stay away from the proceedings as much as possible. I also tried that if they could present any such arguments or provide proof that their belief is true and that they could convince me, then perhaps I would believe in their belief. With this in mind, I listened to all their arguments, the testimony that came on the record of this assembly. If I review it before you and the Honorable Members of the Assembly, we can see whether their ideology is worthy of my believing in it, or whether their ideology is such that I reject it with disdain. QADMANT IS ETERNAL DISCUSSION 2855 Mr. Deputy Chairman! After observing the written statements that he has submitted and the position that was tried to be obtained from him during the cross-examination, we need to consider these points to reach a correct conclusion: what is the status of the witness? You have seen that he is proficient in Persian, he is a Maulvi Fazil in Arabic, he graduated from Oxford and obtained an MA degree from there. He remained the principal of a college in Pakistan and India from 1940 to 1965. Mr. Deputy Chairman, but also the person who they say is an Ummi or interpretive or the last prophet, he is that and the son of the second Caliph. This is the status of the witness. Now you have to see whether this witness has given a correct statement according to his status or has given a roundabout statement, whether he has lied or tried to cover up the facts, whether he has tried to evade the questions, whether his attitude in this House has been hostile or not? Has he shown non-cooperation or tried to hide the facts? Can he refute the opposing arguments to prove his case? Or has he been successful in touching someone else's case to prove his own case? Mr. Deputy Chairman, I want to analyze before you, in the light of a few points from the statements, the character of this witness and his belief. First of all, I will take the point of what he said in this House about the election of his third Caliph? Are these such arguments that we can accept that the person whose this third Caliph is, was also rightful or not? Mr. Deputy Chairman, if we invite a non-Muslim to Islam, one way is to present before him the Uswah Hasanah (good example) of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), his teachings, and support them. 2856 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 3rd Sep. 1974 Let us also review the character of your Rightly Guided Caliphs, their sacrifices, and their righteousness in order to do so. The character of whose Caliph is above suspicion, surely his prophethood is also true and acceptable. Now we have to see to what extent the character of the Rightly Guided Caliphs proved the character of the Holy Prophet, your prophethood and your character to be true and truthful with their actions and deeds, to what extent they kept it high, to what extent they supported it. Similarly, we want to see to what extent this third Caliph has supported the character of his Prophet. Is his character such that it proves that he is indeed the third Caliph of a Prophet? If his character does not meet the criteria of a Caliph's character, then I can say with certainty that that Prophet is also not worthy of being recognized by us. Regarding his election, he has said that the Ahmadiyya community has made me their Imam through election, I was elected through an Electoral College. The number of members of this college is approximately five hundred. It includes some people from the missionary mission, internal preachers of the community, responsible officials, etc., etc. Some members have been nominated by the district organization and when we asked him if you have a final list of the members of your Electoral College, he said we do not have a final list. He said that the election is unopposed, it is not called a contest. No other person can submit their name. We do not have election rules, only traditions. There is no regular procedure to remove the Caliph. He receives the support of Allah Almighty. The minds of the members of the Electoral College are influenced by Allah Almighty. (This means that whenever their Caliph wants, he can also claim prophethood.) QUADRANT ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2857 is). The Caliph cannot suffer from any mental or physical illness. This is our belief. Now you see to what extent this belief is true. Everyone is to taste death. This is our faith. And their Caliph is such that perhaps he does not even taste death according to his belief, unless he himself wants to die.) The Caliph's decision is final. There is no such body that can over-rule the Caliph's decision. The Caliph does not change the decision of the Majlis-e-Shura (Consultative Council). The Caliphate comes from Allah Almighty. It cannot be taken advantage of. (There is contradiction in this statement of Mirza Nasir Ahmad. On one hand, he says that the Caliphate comes from Allah Almighty. On the other hand, he says that the Electoral College elects the Caliph of which they have no definitive list or record. Mr. Deputy Chairman! When asked about the family of their Prophet, i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib, that Mirza Sahib's family consists of which people, see whether he tells the truth or lies, whether his reasoning is natural or artificial, or whether he is acting with any haste. He says that Mirza Sahib's family means only his three sons. His other children are not included in the family. Mr. Deputy Chairman, the belief of Imam is that whatever the number of descendants from one person, all those individuals will be considered his progeny. We don't know if only three individuals out of his offspring were from his seed. After that, Mirza Nasir Ahmad claims to be the witness, Amir-ul-Momineen (Commander of the Believers), and the meaning of Amir-ul-Momineen that he explains, now you see if he can also be our Amir. In his view, according to his belief, are we also worthy of being called believers or not? He says that those people's Amir who agree with our ideology are called Amir-ul-Momineen. This means that those people 2858 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 Those who do not agree with his ideology are not believers. Believers are only those who believe in his creed. The witness clarified that I am not the Amir or Caliph of all Muslims. If he proved himself to be the Caliph of all Muslims, then surely we would have accepted him, provided that his proof was of irrefutable standard. He further stated that the aims and objectives of our Jamaat is to try to establish true Islam. Gaining political interests, participating in politics, benefiting from politics is not our point of view. Politics is not included in our aims and objectives at all. Further on, Mr. Deputy Chairman! I will tell you that when they define Muslim and non-Muslim, they also use the words political Muslim and non-political Muslim. When they interpret a Kafir, they also use the words political Kafir and non-political Kafir in it. When he was asked about the number or population of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya, then you see what their stance is and what position they have adopted. In reply, Mirza Nasir Ahmad has said that He has no record of how many Ahmadis have been convert in Pakistan in the last sixteen years, or how many people join the Jamaat, we do not keep any such record. When asked whether the register of allegiance is counted or not? So the answer is that I do not know about this. This witness is the Amir of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya. He is the Second Caliph and Amir-ul-Momineen, and he does not know how many total members are in his Jamaat, nor has he tried to establish a record, nor does he know whether its record exists or not. Then further on, he turns around and says According to my estimate, there are thirty-five to forty lacks Ahmadis in Pakistan, and one crore in the world. At the time of Mirza Sahib's death, there were four lakh Ahmadis. If the number is recorded as a few thousand in the 1954 census, it is incorrect; census data is not always accurate. I don't know who from the Ahmadiyya community told the Munir Commission that the community's number was two lakhs; this number is incorrect. The Encyclopedia of Islam also incorrectly states our number. If you say that the number of Ahmadis is two lakhs, I cannot refute it with any document. However, if you prove it with any record or official document, I will not refute it. No definitive census has been conducted, so the number is given by estimation. Now the number is thirty-five to forty lakhs. At the time of the partition of the country, it was four lakhs. At that time, thirty-five thousand of you remained in India. After that, the witness challenges the authority of the assembly and says that the assembly does not have the authority to declare anyone a kafir (infidel). I will try to prove from his statement that he has admitted that this assembly has the right to believe that this assembly, which has declared Islam as the official religion of this country, can also decide about any sect and can also amend the law and constitution to determine who is a true believer of Islam and who is not. While challenging the authority of the assembly, he said in his cross-examination that every person should have religious freedom. I say that only a fool would deny this. I have challenged the authority of the assembly under Article 8 and Article 20 of the Constitution. It is correct that the assembly, which is the supreme body, can amend these clauses. I have said in my written statement, that is, the memorandum, that the Constitution gives freedom to every Pakistani, not only to Mr. Bhutto, Mufti Mahmood, and Maulana Maududi. 4800 ANAK MARTA ME KAO I VANDANTE ALE OF PAKISTAN September 10, 1974 No one has the right to object to or oppose someone declaring or professing their religion. If someone declares a religion for worldly gain or greed, the Holy Quran says that no intervention should be made. However, if someone uses religion as a cover for deceit, I condemn it. It is true that someone who is not a Muslim has no right to claim to be a Muslim. (Therefore, we can decide that since they are non-Muslims, they have no right to claim to be Muslims.) When they were asked that when you call a non-Ahmadi a Kafir (infidel), if the assembly passes a resolution that you are outside the circle of Islam, then what is your objection? To this, they reply that then all non-Ahmadi sects should be declared non-Muslim. (This means that this assembly has the authority to declare all non-Ahmadi sects as non-Muslims, but this assembly does not have the authority to declare an Ahmadi sect as non-Muslim). Further on, in response to the question of who is a Muslim, he said that a Muslim is who the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) called a Muslim, and he refers to four hadiths in it, which he has mentioned in his affidavit. Mufti Mahmood Sahib has shed enough light on this. Now, I present before you a review of his statements on the topic of whether to declare them a minority or not. Witness Mirza Nasir Ahmad has said that declaring our sect a minority would make us feel restricted in considering Mirza Sahib as a spiritual leader in such a way that it would undermine the self-respect of those who will be included in our community. If you say that declaring us a minority will not be interference but rather our protection, then we do not need such protection. Mr. Deputy Chairman! Observe his views. It has been said that if an individual calls them non-Muslim, it does not interfere with their rights. However, if the government calls them non-Muslim, it is interference. The witness's position is that according to the three Hadiths mentioned in the affidavit, no government has the right to declare anyone non-Muslim. He said it is correct that when I say that Mufti Mahmood has no right to call us non-Muslims, then we also have no right to say that Mufti Mahmood is not a Muslim. Mr. Deputy Chairman! While briefly reviewing the concept of Prophethood, I present to you brief references to this witness's views and statements. Regarding their belief that Mirza Sahib is an Umati (follower) Prophet, neither their Rabwah group nor the Lahore group has an unwavering stance. Their steps falter. Sometimes they adopt one position, sometimes another, and sometimes a third position. During statements and cross-examination, their entire argument has been that they consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet. If you object to that, okay, let's consider him the Promised Messiah. If you don't consider him the Promised Messiah either, then let's consider him the Promised Mahdi. And if you don't accept him as the Promised Mahdi either, then let's just call him a reflection, his shadow, of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and in this way, he is an Umati Prophet, a Baruzi (reflective) Prophet. This position of theirs also becomes scattered from their own statement. They say that an Umati Prophet is one who spends his life in the love and devotion of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), and admitted that it is correct that people of other sects do not consider Mirza Sahib to be an Umati Prophet. In one place, they have also admitted, it is correct that it is written in their book "Haqiqat-un-Nubuwwah" that Mirza Sahib is not an Umati Prophet but a real prophet. Mr. Deputy Chairman! You see, if that person... 4334 WA WAAL MODRAVIOLI UP PAKISTAN Urdu Sep. 1974 After this, if someone claims to be a true prophet and his caliphs propagate this, then surely this is not only a distortion of Islam, but those people are conspiring to establish a new Islam, a new prophet, and a new community within this country. Mr. Deputy Chairman, the biggest point that has been under discussion in this House, on which the Attorney General asked them many questions, is whether someone who does not believe in Mirza Sahib as a prophet is a "Kafir" (infidel), and whether a non-Ahmadi is a Muslim or not? In his statements, Mirza Nasir Ahmad, the witness, said the following: "The literal meaning of "Kafir" is one who denies. Those who deny the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement are "Kafir" (in the literal sense). (What is the difference between literal and real meanings, you can see here what an amazing difference they have tried to create). Denier is accountable to God. There are two meanings of "Kafir." One is accountable to Allah, and the other is a political "Kafir". (By the way, they say that our group has nothing to do with politics). Deobandi, Ahl-e-Hadith, Barelvi, all of them call themselves Muslims. But in reality, they are not Muslims, but political Muslims." Then they were asked, do the word "Kafir" means to all people... Madam Acting Chairman: May I request the honorable members to keep their tone low please. Thank you. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Mr. Deputy Chairman! When he was asked if the meaning of "Kafir" to the common people is not that he is a non-Muslim, then you can imagine what kind of evasive and mischievous answer he gives. The answer is that only a common man can tell what a common man QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2863 What is its meaning according to him? What answer can I give regarding it? The witness further said that whom we call a "Kafir" (infidel) means that he is accountable to Allah. In one sense, he is a Muslim; in one sense, he is a Kafir. According to the Quran, one who does not believe in all the prophets is not a Muslim, and in my view, to that extent, he is outside the bounds of Islam and accountable in the afterlife. One who does not believe in Mirza Sahib is a sinner and a Kafir. Denying the "Kalima Tayyiba" (the Islamic declaration of faith) excludes one from the Muslim community, but denying Mirza Sahib does not exclude one from the Muslim community; it excludes one from the circle of Islam. Justice Munir did not accept our point because he was not in the mood to accept our stance. (They have devised a strange excuse to escape and evade the decision of any court or tribunal. They say that because such and such authority, such and such judge, such and such court was not in the mood to accept our position, it ruled against us). When he was asked that Mirza Bashiruddin has said that whoever believes in Moses (peace be upon him) and does not believe in Jesus (peace be upon him), or whoever believes in Jesus (peace be upon him) and does not believe in the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), is a Kafir, a confirmed Kafir, he answered that he is politically outside the faith. A person who does not accept Mirza Sahib as a prophet due to ignorance is not excluded from the Muslim community, though he is outside the circle of Islam, and if he has knowledge of him being a prophet and then does not accept, he said that he is excluded from the Muslim community. The witness said that we do not give our daughters in marriage to both types of people. The Quran does not mention the circle of Islam but mentions the Muslim community. Every person who is a member of the Muslim community is also in the circle of Islam. One who is not in the circle of Islam is not a member of the Muslim community either. He further stated that in my view, a "Murtad" (apostate) is one who says that he no longer has any connection with Islam. This means that he is outside the circle of Islam. If an Ahmadi abandons Ahmadiyyat, he becomes an apostate in the literal sense, not in the Quranic sense. 2004 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 Madam Acting Chairperson: How much time will you take? Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: I will take as much time as I have already taken. I am reviewing his statements, and this is something that has not been discussed in this House before. He said that if a Muslim considers in good faith and then does not accept Mirza Sahib as a prophet, then he is a "fake and deceitful disbeliever." "What kind of disbeliever do you think a person is who does not believe in Mirza Sahib's claims even after the completion of the argument?" To this question of the Attorney General, he replied that such a person is absolutely a disbeliever. And when the Attorney General asked that if this entire Assembly, despite hearing all his claims and all his arguments, says that he is not a prophet, then what would be his opinion about those members of the Assembly? He hesitated to answer that. Listen to his reasoning regarding not giving daughters in marriage to non-Ahmadis. He said, "There are Muslims who are outside the Muslim community, and others who are outside the circle of Islam. We do not give our daughters in marriage to either type of Muslim." Now you have seen that in matters of faith and religion, and in proving his claims and refuting our claims, he tried to create confusion. Sometimes he created one kind of confusion, sometimes another, sometimes political confusion, sometimes confusion about believers, sometimes religious confusion, sometimes confusion about disbelievers. He says that we do not give our daughters in marriage to either type of Muslim, then see the justification for it. Here is a religious leader who claims to be the third Caliph of a prophet, and clarifying, he states that this is not a Sharia edict, but the reason is that we do not expect a non-Ahmadi Muslim to fulfill the rights of an Ahmadi wife. If a non-Ahmadi girl is married to an Ahmadi, we hope that the Ahmadi young man... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2865 Will fulfill the rights of his wife as we expect. (What a weak argument and how feeble is the reasoning. The witness further said that Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Sahib has declared marital relations with Muslims as illegitimate and forbidden because whatever creates corruption is illegitimate and forbidden, therefore he presents the justification that we do not give our daughters in marriage to non-Ahmadis, here an attempt has been made to use complete falsehood and misrepresentation. The truth is that they consider non-Ahmadis as infidels, that is why they do not give their daughters in marriage and they take the marriage proposals of non-Ahmadi girls so that according to their belief they can include them in their sect. Why don't these people offer funeral prayers for non-Ahmadis? Whatever is written in their books, this witness has appeared in this House and tried to justify it and tried to convince us people, rather to convince the entire Muslim world and those who read these statements and this testimony, as to why we non-Ahmadis Why don't we offer funeral prayers for them? You see, even if an ordinary person of understanding and wisdom is not ready to accept this, then their claim is completely false and untrue. He said that all non-Ahmadi sects have called us infidels, that is why we do not offer funeral prayers for non-Ahmadis. We did not offer the funeral prayer of Quaid-e-Azam, though he did not declare us infidels, but he was a Shia and had heard the fatwas of infidelity against us from the Shia community. But in his life He did not reject those fatwas. We also do not offer the funeral prayer of non-Ahmadi children for the same reason that their parents gave or heard fatwas of infidelity against us and did not reject them. However, a child who grows up and rejects the religion of his parents (this means that he becomes an apostate by deviating from the religion) Then they will offer his funeral prayer. Otherwise, not offering the funeral prayer is not a punishment, it is a collective obligation. If £344 JODWILLE OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 If a few individuals from the community fulfill this obligation, it is considered fulfilled on behalf of everyone. Mr. Deputy Chairman! Does this mean that if a non-Ahmadi Muslim dies, then only non-Ahmadi Muslims will fulfill the obligation of *fard kifaayah*? And if an Ahmadi dies, then this obligation will be fulfilled by Ahmadis. This means that their religion is separate, our religion is separate, their *deen* is different and our *deen* is different. The witness further said that we offer funeral prayers for Lahori Ahmadis because they did not issue *fatwas* of *kufr* against us. When he was asked why Mirza Bashiruddin had forbidden offering funeral prayers for non-Ahmadis, he replied that he neither confirms nor supports Mirza Bashiruddin's *fatwa* until he is shown the original text. This person is the greatest scholar of his religion and knows his books by heart. You can see how sincerely he is answering. Did he give evasive replies? Did he deliberately try to avoid answering the questions that went to the root of his case or undermined his position? Please note what he has said about this. He has said that he neither confirms nor supports what Mirza Bashiruddin said about the funeral prayer of a non-Ahmadi child. Elsewhere he said that he does not know whether Ahmadis all over the world have ever offered funeral prayers or absentee funeral prayers for a non-Ahmadi. Then he says that if an Ahmadi leaves Ahmadiyyat, he becomes an apostate in a literal sense, not in a Quranic sense. Then he said that *Nabi al-Muslih* is a book of our community but is not an authority for us. Then he said that when we say that our *kalima* is different and the *kalima* of non-Ahmadis is different, then... QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2867 Their "Laa ilaaha illallaah" is different, and the non-Ahmadis' "Laa ilaaha illallaah" is different, and similarly, our "Muhammad Rasool Allah" is different, and other sects' "Muhammad Rasool Allah" is different, and this difference is in meaning. (When there is a difference in meaning between our and their Kalma, then Mr. Deputy Chairman! How can they be a part of our Islam? How can they have our beliefs?) Then he said that there is also a difference in meaning in other pillars of Islam. Other pillars of Islam include the Kalma, prayer, Zakat, Hajj, and fasting. When the meaning of their fasting is different, and our fasting is different, when the meaning of their Zakat is different, and our Zakat is different, when the meaning of their Hajj is different, and our Hajj is different, then either they are not Muslims, or we are not. Then the beliefs of both sects cannot be the same. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said that "there is command and prohibition in my revelation." When the witness was asked about its meaning, he said, "It means that the commands and prohibitions of the Holy Quran should be propagated, i.e., it should be renewed." Renewal is for something that loses its original reality, its original status, and its original effect. If our Islam has become old, if our Quran has become dilapidated, if our prophethood has become ineffective, then only then they needed to renew it. If they consider our faith to be true according to our beliefs, consider our Quran to be true, and consider our Prophet to be true, then Mr. Deputy Chairman! Then there is absolutely no need to renew that faith, that Quran, or that Islam. After that, he also resorted to manipulation elsewhere. Listen to it. Akmal's poem, "See Ghulam Ahmad in Qadian." When he was asked about it, he said that its refutation came in 1934. Besides, Akmal is not an authority for us. And when it was asked that what Highness! Al-Bassi, When تردید (Taraddud) came up, he replied that وضاحت (Wazahat) in the تردید (Taraddud) it was said that if Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is greater in rank, then it is wrong. And if it is considered that the propagation of Islam happened more during the time of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, then in a figurative sense, it is correct that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (God forbid, God forbid) was much greater than the Holy Prophet ﷺ. It is written in نزول مسیح (Nuzul-e-Maseeh) that "And those who opposed me were also named Christians, Jews, and polytheists." He said that this is acceptable. We said that it is our belief, which means that Mirza Sahib did not name them, but the one who named them did. When the reference from "Anwar al-Lughat" dictionary was read out to him, he said that he does not accept it, that it is not a standard dictionary. And elsewhere he says, "All Muslims have accepted me except those who are the offspring of prostitutes." Mirza Nasir Ahmad replied that Mirza Sahib said that all Muslims will accept me except those who are the offspring of rebels and mischief-mongers. This is not present tense, it is future tense. Now he has tried to put it in a spin whether it will give the meaning of present, past, or future. Mirza Bashir Ahmad's writing that "Sometimes the word Muslim has also appeared in my writings, but it does not mean etc. etc." Mirza Nasir Ahmad has acknowledged it and said that the literal meaning is accepted, but in a figurative sense, that is not what it means. The translation of "ולד الزنا ذريعۂ البغایہ" (Wald-uz-Zina Zari'ah al-Bagaya) he has translated to not mean ولد الزنا (Wald-uz-Zina) but rather it has some other meaning, that is, the offspring of rebels. And in "Al Fazl" August 22, 1944, when Akmal's ode was re-published, about which they had said that it was refuted in 1934, and the details from the pen of Akmal and its original poem were read out in this house by Ansari Sahib, Mirza Nasir was dumbfounded. Mr. Deputy Chairman! If the witness was asked that from your hands... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2869 If the parrots actually flew away, he would say that he did not have parrots in his hands. And flying away in the roof of this house, they could not hide anywhere. Therefore, it is obvious that there were no parrots at all. This is a kind of argument that is completely stupid and meaningless. When we asked that if you can be a member of the Muslim community even after having your own beliefs, then why have you been constantly chanting about separation? So he said that although it is said in "Anwar al-Musallah" to stay separate from non-Ahmadis in religious matters, this book is not an authority for our community. When he was asked that when you declare yourself a separate nation, what does it mean? Then he said that we are a separate nation too. We do not have relationships with others, however, we eat the slaughtered animals of others. If they want to continue interfering in our religion by keeping themselves in the Muslim community while eating the slaughtered animals of others, then this is absolutely wrong. We cannot allow it. We eat the slaughtered animals of the People of the Book, but that does not mean that our faith is the same as the faith of the non-Muslim People of the Book. Madam Acting Chairperson, Chaudhry Sahib, it has been almost an hour. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: I will try to finish quickly. I will skip some references. When the question was asked, why did Mirza Bashiruddin Ahmed say that when the Nazarene Messiah had separated his followers, so what if Mirza Sahib had also done it? The answer he gave was that it means that Ahmadis should be protected from the influence of non-Ahmadis (therefore, the best way to protect Ahmadis from the influence of non-Ahmadis is to declare them a non-Muslim minority sect). He also said that it is true that Mirza Sahib was called "Ummi Nabi" in "Haqeeqat-ul-Nubuwwah." 2870 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 He has not been called a prophet, but a true prophet. After that, the scholars and prophets (peace be upon them) whom they have declared as infidels, and Mirza Sahib's attempt to become Allah Almighty, and the abuses that have been hurled, have been discussed extensively, and there is no need to go into it further. Mr. Deputy Chairman! I would like to submit that when these people have created a separate shell for themselves in society, in addition to religion, when they do not want to live together in our society, when they do not have relationships with us, when they do not participate in our worship, then what is the point of their being associated with our religion? Mr. Deputy Chairman! When they have separated their judicial system, when they have built their own separate Masjid Aqsa, when they have separated their own Jannat al-Baqi, when they have built their own Qasr-e-Khilafat separately, then what kind of Muslims are they? Their sect has absolutely no connection with our sect. Mr. Deputy Chairman! They have also established a parallel government within Rabwah. They have made the city of Rabwah a closed city. Other Muslims are not allowed to do business there, nor are they allowed to work, nor are they allowed to acquire property. These people, through their conduct, their beliefs, and their political ideologies, have themselves declared themselves a separate minority from us. If we give this action of both sects a constitutional and legal form, then I think there will be no injustice to anyone.... Madam Deputy Chairman: Try to conclude. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali and the National Assembly will not exceed its powers at all. Mr. Deputy Chairman! Yesterday, the Chairman Sahib had said that besides his speech, the esteemed QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2871 It is also the duty of the members to propose what solution they have in mind. Different resolutions have been presented in this House. I do not disagree with any resolution. Basically and principally, the spirit of all the resolutions is only one. Only their branches or details have a slight difference. So I want to request that we should adopt such a path that the heresy of prophet-making should be eradicated forever, whether it is Qadiani, whether it is Mirzaee, whether it is Lahori, whether it is Rabui, and whether it is any coming party who, God forbid, declares its own separate prophethood in the coming tomorrow, then all these things should be prevented and treated with this one decision. If today we declare the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a non-Muslim minority sect, then if tomorrow Mirza Nasara declares his prophethood, will it mean that there will be bloodshed in the country again, then a crisis will arise here, then this assembly will sit and spend millions of rupees on this matter and re-examine whether the coming prophet and his followers are also Muslims or not. I think we should complete the argument and should not leave any room for any future hypothetical false prophet to leave such a mark in the religion of Islam. Mr. Deputy Chairman! Regarding the kind of prophethood that the people of Qadiani Lahore and Rabui sects claim, the Holy Prophet said that in the coming years and centuries in my Ummah, at least thirty liars claiming false prophethood will be born. Voices: Thirty, thirty. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: No. I am saying thirty. Honorable Acting Chairman: That's done. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep, 1974 Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: I would like to submit that if we take stock, even fifteen have not been born yet, and if fifteen more impostors are born in the future, we should make a final decision about them today. Madam Acting Chairperson: Yes, thank you. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Therefore, I would like to submit that I propose, as the Chairman Sahib ordered yesterday, I will take six more minutes, I will not take more time. Madam Acting Chairperson: It has been an hour. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: I present the following proposal for amendment in the constitution: "In order to determine the status of Quadianis, Ahmadis and those who are non-believers in the faith of Khatam-i-Nabuwat, the Constitution be amended in the following manner, namely:- (1) That in the Third Schedule of the Constitution, in para 1, the words "of any kind" be added at the end of fifth line after the word 'Prophet'." And after this amendment of mine, its meaning will become: "I,.......do solemnly swear that I am a Muslim and believe in the Unity and Oneness of Almighty Allah, the Books of Allah, the Holy Quran being the last of them, the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the last of the Prophets and that there can be no Prophet of any kind after him, the Day of Judgment, and all the requirements and teachings of the Holy Quran and Sunnah". And after that my second submission is that: QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2873 (2) In Article 2 of the Constitution of Pakistan, the existing clause may be numbered as clause (1) and the following be added as clause (2): The crux of the matter is: "Islam shall be the State religion of Pakistan." After this, it should be said: "A person who has a faith different from that laid down in the Third Schedule of this Constitution made for the oath of the President and the Prime Minister of Pakistan shall be considered a non-Muslim, and the rights and obligations of the non-Muslims shall be determined by law." And the third thing will be that: (3) In Clause (3) of Article 106 of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, in the sixth line, the word "and" be substituted by a comma, and the following be added between the words "Parsi" and "communities", "and other minorities". With these thoughts.... [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman, (Sahibzada Farooq Ali] Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Mr. Speaker! I thank the Chairman, who during the committee proceedings, tried to maintain the decorum of this House very well, and... 2014 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (3rd Sep. 1974 I congratulate the Attorney General, who so skillfully kept the witnesses in his grasp that he managed to extract even what they did not want to say. And in the end, I reiterate my claim that this Ahmadiyya sect is absolutely not Muslim. Both of its factions should be declared non-Muslim. And as I have presented a resolution regarding amendment to the constitution, it should be approved and a separate central law should be made to determine the rights and obligations of non-Muslim minorities, their rights and obligations. Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari! Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Sir, I regret that many of my papers have been left with someone else, and I will have a little difficulty in presenting it as I wanted to. However, since many things have become quite clear in the previous statements and speeches, especially the joint statement with the signatures of many religious scholars, in my opinion, the religious aspect of this issue has become fully clear. Although due to busyness and ill health, I did not get a chance to read each word or check its references, I have seen this religious part, and I think it is enough. Now I want to say something about the nature of this issue. Such questions have been asked from both sides in the affidavit as to whether the National Assembly of Pakistan has the authority or not. This is a very insulting and provocative question, especially from people about whom I don't want to use these words, but a self-planted sapling of the British who admittedly spied for the British, a clerk of a court, QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2875 He has the authority to declare 750 million people infidels, his son has the authority to declare 750 million Muslims in the world infidels, and this assembly of six crore Muslims of Pakistan does not have the authority to give it legal form while respecting the wishes of its voters. I, and perhaps other members, may have received many letters stating that it is very dangerous to give the assembly the right to decide on religious matters, who is a Muslim and who is not. Tomorrow they will say interest is permissible, or not permissible. However, in my opinion, the nature of the issue is not this. I am also not ready to give the assembly the status of Darul Ifta (Islamic legal institute), nor is this assembly composed of members who can be considered authorized to issue fatwas (religious decrees). But the point here is not about issuing fatwas; our issuing or not issuing fatwas will not make any difference to this issue. If we say today, and we are saying today, that they should be declared a non-Muslim minority, it does not mean that they were not non-Muslims until today, that they were Muslims. All Muslims of Pakistan have considered them non-Muslims. They have considered us non-Muslims. And the Muslim world, as it becomes more aware, is considering them non-Muslims, and they have been considering everyone else non-Muslims from day one. The only thing is that the public considers this thing a part of their faith and the circumstances have given it so much importance that they demand from their representatives that it be given constitutional and legal form. That's all there is to it. In our constitution, in the Objectives Resolution, we have said that sovereignty in the world belongs only to Allah alone. It is not that we have given that sovereignty, God forbid, it was already there. But we, as an ideological state, considered it appropriate, necessary, to give it a very prominent place in our constitution. So we are not issuing any fatwas here. ...are giving, but rather a recognized and established status that is quite definite and certain in the eyes of the Muslims of Pakistan and the Muslims of the world, and therefore it is to be legally and constitutionally recognized, and the circumstances have made it inevitable because complexities are gradually increasing. The situation has become so bad that the integrity of the country itself and its interests are in serious danger. The solution to this problem that has been generally proposed in this House by all the people and in this resolution in which I have also signed, is unique in its nature, just as this problem has a unique status in history in its own nature. Such a problem has never arisen in the Islamic world in this environment. It is not that liars have not risen. They have been coming from the very beginning. But what happened was that as soon as such a sedition emerged, it was not allowed to flourish. Here, it so happened that during the helplessness and subjugation of the Muslims, the British planted this self-grown plant. The Muslims were not able to end this sedition at that time. They continued to nurture it, and this plant grew, flourished, and blossomed. After the creation of Pakistan, there were continuous efforts for it, but since they had become so controlled during the time of the British, and after the creation of Pakistan, this state was perhaps not destined to live in peace even for a single day. Problems kept coming one after another. Despite this, Muslims tried many times. Now this sedition has emerged so prominently that it must be resolved in any case. Its uniqueness lies in the fact that from the time of Musaylima Kazzab and other great liars, there were also Ali Muhammad Bab and Baha'u'llah among their contemporaries in the previous era, in the last century. But after a few days, they proved so honest that after making all their claims of divinity and prophethood, they said that they were not Muslims. A kind of conflict with them ended. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION The misfortune here is that, cloaked in Islam, an attempt is being made to undermine the fort of Islam, and it is happening continuously. So now the time has come for us to solve this problem. And the solution to this problem that we have proposed, and the sense of the House also seems to be the same, is unique in itself. If there is any mistake in it, it is a mistake towards generosity, it may be a mistake towards tolerance. No nation, no community, no ummah can tolerate that their prophet, their leader, should be treated with such contempt and such humiliation, God forbid, insulted. And in a country that has been achieved after the sacrifice of millions of people, they continue to dig tunnels in it, thinking of destroying it, and we only propose that they should be declared a non-Muslim minority, which they themselves have been demanding, and through their actions, as my learned speaker said earlier, they themselves have been proving that there is nothing common between us and them. But then why do they want to remain a unit with us in a political capacity? Allama Iqbal explained this in his famous article that their number is not yet enough to fulfill their ambitions. This is the matter of 1934. Their number is not yet enough to get a seat in the assembly. Therefore, they are waiting for that time and during this time, the British had an interest in dividing the Islamic world into pieces. As the movement for the independence of India progressed and the conflict between Hindus and Muslims came to the fore, the interest of the Hindus also became tied to diverting the attention of Muslims from this centrality and focusing the attention of Muslims on the new Kaaba being built here, the new Mecca and Medina, so that from Arabia, the Islamic world, Mecca and Medina, the entire 2878 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Sep., 1974 Their connection should be severed from the community. Therefore, as Dr. Shankar Das's article has been published in this unanimous response, and I don't want to repeat it, but its gist is that in the era of undivided India, it was written that there is only one way to correct Muslims here, and that is to promote Mirzaism. As it gains promotion, the inter-Islamic and internationalist mindset within Muslims will diminish, and they will begin to imagine that our Mecca, Medina, our Kaaba is all here, and work continued on this path. Now the situation is this, and they themselves have confessed to it, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib said, and since these excerpts have already been mentioned, I do not want to repeat them, that between us and non- Ahmadis, and by non-Ahmadis they mean non-Muslims, there is no minor difference, but our God, our Prophet, our Quran, our prayer, our Hajj, everything is separate. We are not to participate in marriage, scholarly activities, or anything else. Since these excerpts have appeared in many friends' speeches and statements, and also during question and answer sessions, I will not read these excerpts. So this situation is ongoing. To the extent that regarding the Holy Quran, the concept of Allah that we have, no one would ever say that I have become the very God and I have signed the decrees of destiny, or that God is from me, I am from God, I am the son of God, etc. etc. There are many things. As far as the Prophet is concerned, it is the unanimous belief of Islam that the chain of Prophethood ended with the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), it was severed, the coming of Gabriel ceased forever. But according to them, the concept of the Prophet has come up during all those question and answer sessions and it has no connection to the Muslim concept of the Prophet and the concept of the Messenger. As far as the concept of God is concerned, all religions share in it. But the formation of a community occurs through the Prophet. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2879 around it. As many prophets as there are, so many are the communities. Therefore, Muslims have a separate community. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has a separate community, and for a long time, he kept it hidden. But then he also started expressing it in his writings that anyone who gives some laws, commands, and prohibitions to his community has many quotations that have been included in it, in which he declared himself a separate community. In this way, there is a difference of opinion and school of thought in the Muslim community. But as far as religion is concerned, the religion is one for everyone, and that is Islam. And according to the verse of the Holy Quran (Arabic), the religion from Allah is Islam. But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib claims that the religion he has brought, using the word "religion," the religion he has brought, Allah has promised him that He will promote it. In this way, regarding the Holy Quran, regarding religion, his quote is that Allah Almighty manifested this ultimate truth in the wilderness of Qadian and selected Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him), who is of Persian descent, for this important task. "I will spread your name to the edges of the world. I will support you with powerful invaders. And the religion that you have brought, I will make it prevail over all other religions through arguments. And its dominance will last until the end of the world." This is the religion. Then further he says: "The first Messiah was only a Messiah. Therefore, his community went astray, and the Mosaic order came to an end. If I were only a Messiah, it would be the same. But I am also the manifestation of Mahdi and Muhammad (may Allah bless him). Therefore, my community will have two parts. One, those who adopt the color of Christianity will be destroyed, and the other, those who adopt the Mahdavi color." So, in this way, in many places, he has declared himself a separate community, a separate religion. 2880 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Sep., 1974 A separate Ummah, a separate concept of God, a separate concept of the Prophet. About the Quran, their Successor, Mian Bashir Mahmood Sahib, says that whether a prophet is Shari'i or non-Shari'i, they are at the same status. If someone is called non-Shari'i, it only means that he did not bring a new order. Otherwise, there can be no prophet who does not bring Sharia. Yes, some bring a new Sharia and some bring the first Sharia again, and a Shari'i prophet means that he brings the first word. And the Messenger Allah ﷺ is a legislative prophet, which means that you brought the Quran first. And Hazrat Masih Maud is a non- Legislative prophet, so it means. It does not mean that you did not bring the Quran first. Otherwise, you also brought the Quran. If he had not brought it, then why did God say that he should be given the Quran and stood up. After that, the revelations that came to him were compiled by his followers under the name Kitab al-Mubin. Just as the collection of Quranic verses that were revealed to the Messenger of Allah ﷺ was named Quran, similarly, the collection of verses that were revealed to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib was named Kitab al-Mubin. Now, after the Quran, comes the status of Hadith. The status of Hadith, in the opinion of all our Muslims, is this, there is no disagreement on this, the strongest argument, the most reliable thing is Hadith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's concept of Hadith is this: he can accept any Hadith that does not conflict with his revelation and declare it authentic, and the one that he does not like, he can throw it in the trash. These are his words. I think this quote has already come up. That's why I don't want to prolong it. Regarding revelation, this is the situation: both groups of Qadianis equally call whatever was revealed to Mirza Sahib as revelation. Whereas the unanimous belief of Muslims is QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2881 that the revelation to the Messenger of Allah ﷺ has ended. "Wahi" is a technical word that can be found in English dictionaries, as well as in Arabic, and it means the word of Allah that He sends down to His prophets. So our concept of "wahi" is different from theirs. According to us, the definition of Sahaba (companions) is those people who saw the Messenger of Allah ﷺ in the state of faith. According to them, it is those people, and those people who saw Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. We only call the wives of the Holy Prophet ﷺ "Ummahat-ul-Momineen" (Mothers of the Believers). They also call the wives of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad "Ummahat-ul-Momineen," which is a hurtful insult to Muslims that is difficult to bear. After that, the concept of the Messiah is different among our common Muslims, and the concept of the Mahdi is different. These are two separate personalities. At the time of the descent of Hazrat Messiah, Imam Mahdi, who will be from the Ummah of Muhammad, will first lead the prayers. But here they have combined both personalities. And their origins are connected to the Babis. Ali Muhammad Bab also claimed that before me, the Holy Prophet and Hazrat Ali Karam Allah Wajhu were separate personalities, and I am the embodiment of both of them. So it is like that. Well, they are the embodiment of the statuses of all the prophets, and gradually they themselves become manifestations of the Messenger of Allah ﷺ and rise up. Similarly, "Ashab-e-Suffa" is a separate term in our tradition and refers to those devoted companions of the Messenger of Allah ﷺ who, day and night, tied stones to their stomachs and remained hungry and thirsty to serve the religion. According to them, the "Ashab-e-Suffa" are those who are currently residing in Qadian. Regarding Hajj, much has been said that now Allah Almighty has appointed Qadian for this purpose. There, a proxy Hajj will continue to take place. Regarding the Durud (salutations), during the question and answer session, I included a photocopy of the magazine. They denied it. Anyway, that is the same Durud. 2882 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 It is not so, but even in what has been published under the name of "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's Predictions" and in other statements, the invocation is as follows: Anyway, this is their invocation. (Arabic) The concept that Muslims have about Panjtan has also come that day. This is also a very heart-wrenching and insulting concept that they have established. The concept of Panjtan that exists among Muslims consists of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and his family. They have included Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his family members in it. In this way, in every single thing, even in small things, according to us, Masjid al-Aqsa is the one in Damascus, according to them, Masjid al-Aqsa has come here. According to us, that is the place where if a person enters, there is a promise of peace from Allah Almighty, that is in Makkah Mukarrama. According to them, that is the upper room where Mirza Ghulam Ahmad used to sit and think and write. That is, nowhere do their and our connections meet in any concept, neither in society, nor in economy, nor in beliefs, nor in the concept of religion. All this has been happening from their side. In short, they have established a parallel camp of prophethood in opposition to the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). The responsibility for the protection and promotion of the camp was taken by the British, and they continued to do so in this way. Here, many people, without thinking about the issue, without studying it, without reading the relevant material, have had a dominant perception in their minds that this is a sectarian matter. This is not a sectarian matter. These are two separate religions, two separate faiths, two separate communities, two separate civilizations in which there is no similarity except that of Islam. They have donned the guise of Islam. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have been able to deceive people. In this context, I would also like to mention that the other branch that sprouted from them, obviously sprouted from the dispute over the succession of the spiritual seat. As Allama Iqbal said, whether out of expediency or whatever reason, they toned down its color a bit, and instead of a deep crimson, they made it a bit pink, so that it would be easier to deceive the Muslims. To make a person, a person's name, his achievements acceptable to Muslims to some extent. After that, the atmosphere kept getting prepared. There is no difference between the two. All the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, all the writings of Hakim Nur-ud-Din are clear proof of this. That is, there would be someone out of their mind who would deny that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not claim prophethood, but there are so many writings that it cannot be negated by any interpretation or any concern. Sometimes to deceive the Muslims, he wrote, perhaps this thing has also been quoted, in the affidavit as well and in his reply as well, Mirza Sahib had written and given this: If people are bothered by the word "prophet," then wherever I have written "prophet," cut it out and make it "Mandarath." This is his writing. A few days after that, another writing is found, and that is that at the time of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, the disbelievers of Mecca said that we do not recognize the Messenger of Allah ﷺ as a Messenger. This "Messenger of Allah" that is with the name should be cut off. Well, the Companions got angry at this. But the Prophet said it doesn't matter. He cut it off with his own hand. So from here, an example is taken that if you have cut it off with your own hand, it does not mean that your prophethood has ended, that reality is in its place. That is, even if someone is a Muhaddith and cuts off the word "prophet," according to them, their prophethood will remain. 2884 NATIONAL ADDEMDLT UP PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1914 So this is such a web of deceit and fraud that an unnatural substance is being nurtured inside the body of the nation for the past 80, 90 years, due to which this nation has not found peace. And now its claws have spread far and wide. They have said that no government, no assembly has the right to forcibly convert anyone's religion. This is a very vile and heinous propaganda being done to defame Pakistan abroad, meaning there is no mention of forcibly changing their religion, changing their beliefs. What could be more generous and tolerant than this? It is said that according to your beliefs, you are not Muslims. If you are Muslims then we are not Muslims. If we write in the constitution that we are all infidels or write it for them. There is no question of changing religion in this. Rather, there are two separate entities, they have to be identified. This propaganda is being done in the world only to defame Pakistan. A verse of the Quran is presented: لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ There is no compulsion in religion Who is compelling? Does anyone have a more absurd belief than this? The matter concerns the State of Pakistan. Every state has the full right to protect its geographical boundaries. Our state is an ideological state. It is not only our right but also our duty to protect our ideological borders. If anyone neglects this duty, it means that they are betraying the country. Therefore, protecting the ideological borders of Islam is not only its right but also one of its fundamental duties. If it neglects, then it is betraying its duties. Now their point is that in connection with the establishment of Pakistan, the collective problems of Muslims QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2885 They gave a very long list. I had noted it. From 1893 to the establishment of Pakistan and even after that, they not only participated with Muslims in collective issues of Muslims but also encouraged other Muslims to do so. This is fundamentally a great misrepresentation. Perhaps they have made a similar misrepresentation regarding their population, which has become fully clear in the question and answer session. His era is from 1839-1840. He would have been almost young during the Ghadar era or young during the times of the turmoil of the War of Independence. The achievements after that are evident from his own books. After that, when he came to his senses, he took up a job in the court, then he was entrusted with some high service. From there, he resigned and started debates against Christians and Hindus. Why did he do this? Excerpts from his books regarding this have come up in the question and answer session. Oh, I will not repeat them because Jihad is to be forbidden, therefore such books should be written that the excitement of Muslims ends, and by becoming their well-wisher, their objectives are achieved, and the issue of Jihad is removed from their hearts. Then he dared to say during the question and answer session that it was a time when neither Muslim scholars issued a fatwa of Jihad nor did any Muslim scholar wage Jihad. This is such a misrepresentation that one can only mourn it. As far as the fatwa is concerned, since the British occupation, such fatwas have been repeatedly issued by the scholars. It is true that these issues have sometimes been controversial, whether the conditions for Jihad exist now or not. There was a difference of opinion on this. Some people said that the conditions were not fulfilled, some said that it was time for fighting, and some said that it was not time for fighting. 2886 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 The number of such people was also small, in the time of their birth, even in the time of their youth, their Jihad continued until their death. Even after their death, Jihad continued. There is a long list of these scholars who performed Jihad and who were sent to Kala Pani (penal colony). With your permission, I would like to present a few names. Mr. Chairman: Short break for ten minutes: we will meet at 12.15 p.m. [The special committee adjourned for ten minutes to reassemble at 12.15p.m.j [The special committee re-assembled after short break, Mr. Speaker (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari! Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Sir! Before I begin my submissions, I have a request from you that I am afraid my point will remain completely incomplete. I am being very brief, otherwise you will ring the bell and the story will end. Mr. Chairman: I have not rung the bell yet. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: If you could arrange for me to have half an hour on the day the Attorney General makes his speech, otherwise the matter will remain completely incomplete. Even now there can't be much connection. Mr. Chairman: Okay, the Attorney General has to sum up his arguments the day after tomorrow. After that, if you deem it appropriate that something is left out then it is open for QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2887 Okay, the Attorney General, if the members can speak again. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Talk to them, if they give a little time earlier, then it's fine. Mr. Chairman: Okay, the Attorney General will come today, you can consult with them tomorrow, then the fifth is fine. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I was submitting that how wrong a claim has been made. Mr. Chairman: Approximately how long will you take today? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Give me an hour. Mr. Chairman: An hour. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Meaning, either there should be permission that I give it in writing. Mr. Chairman: You can give it in writing too, if you give it tomorrow, then we will include it in the cyclostyle and circulate it among the members. Mr. Muhammad Hanif Khan: If they give it in writing, then their writing will be based on knowledge, secondly, those of us whose knowledge is short, less, will be able to say two or four sentences. Mr. Chairman: He was almost neck deep in it; he knows this subject much more than anybody else. Mr. Muhammad Hanif Khan: I have proposed that, as you have agreed, if you give it in writing, then those people whose knowledge on this matter is less, they will also... 2888 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Sep., 1974 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Then it will take some time. Mr. Chairman: Give it by the fifth. If you give it to us tomorrow, we will have it cyclostyled the day after and distributed in numbers on the morning of the sixth. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I will say as much as I can, and what remains after that, I will give in writing. Mr. Chairman: Prince (Mian Gul Aurangzeb), I would like to have your views also after the Maulana has finished. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: So, while apologizing that perhaps there will not be much coherence in my speech now, I will try to include the more important things today. So, regarding the scholars, he has written that it was an era when the scholars neither issued fatwas for Jihad nor did the scholars engage in Jihad, and they adopted the same approach. I will only give a few examples of how Muslims faced adversity in 1857 and how the political power of Muslims was fragmented and the state of despair and deprivation that arose from it, despite which there were such vibrant people who continuously kept the chain of Jihad going, continued to issue fatwas, and from Bengal to Assam, from the Frontier Province to the farthest reaches of the tribal areas, there was no place where this work was not being done, and they did this work very cleverly. In those days, the British had established indigo factories. On one hand, it is said that the story of Jihad had ended. In those days, Muslims very cleverly convinced the British that Jihad is just like one of our... QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2889 ...is an obligation, just like fasting, offering Friday prayers, etc., etc. Therefore, we should be given official leave for Jihad. They used to get leave from the indigo factories, and they were fighting Jihad against the Sikhs at that time. The aim was to seize a territory. And now all the writings have been published, those letters of that time have been published, which fully prove that Hazrat Syed Ahmad Shaheed, and other scholars, their program was that first this area, which was a Muslim majority area, they would establish a Muslim government in it, then they would deal with the British. So the British used to give them leave from the indigo factories. It was as if the story of Jihad had been conveyed to the public, not that it was being said that the name of Jihad was not being taken at that time. There were scholars from every school of thought in it. The time when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, according to himself, was performing the duties of informing, was the time when the followers of Hazrat Syed Ahmad Sahib Shaheed had dispersed. They then re-established their center in Patna. Cases continued, tortures were inflicted, until finally the entire neighborhood of Sadiqpur, which was in their mansion, was demolished and plows were run there so that there would be no trace of any settlement here for many ages. Those who were there were either hanged or sent to Kala Pani (penal colony). The names of their families and individuals were written in the records of the British Government until the establishment of Pakistan, the names of their descendants. Similarly, it was the same era when Maulana Fazl Haq, Maulana Khair Abadi Sahib, Mufti Sadruddin Sahib, Maulana Inayat Ahmad Sahib Rampuri, all of their fatwas are published and available. In the Frontier, Maulana Abdul Ghafoor Akhund, he announced Jihad. After that Maulana Abdullah took his place. He passed away in 1902. Then Maulana Abdul Karim, he remained until 1915. After him, Maulana Abdul Rahim, Uthatthana and Chharkund... 2890 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Sep., 1974 etc. have their centers and repeatedly clashed with the British. Bengali Haji Shariatullah to Mir, these names are still on the tongues of the children there. The story of the silk handkerchief, The story of joining with the Turks to cleanse India from the curse of the British, that Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi Sahib, Sheikh Al-Hind Mahmood Al-Hasan Sahib, all come in this list. Meaning, the entire era is such that no one is lacking in performing Jihad. And Mirza Sahib used to say this. He had made a name for himself in informing that those who want to wage war against the British here, meaning Dar-ul-Harb, want to wage jihad, they do not consider Friday and Eid prayers to be permissible. But they would find out who which scholars are, which people are the ones who do not read the Friday prayer due to being close to the Qurbani. This way, they would do the work of informing on them. Since it hasn't come up before, I would like to ask permission to present its excerpt. Meaning, in any society, it is not conceived that in that society, any righteous person, in this state, when the nation is caught in the clutches of foreign rule, that any person would inform and that person would have any dignity in the nation. Not that he would be called a reformer, a benefactor, a prophet, a traitor, and what not. Now I recite an excerpt from Tabligh Risalat, Volume 5, page 11. This is a statement by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad: Since it is in the interest of expediency that for the welfare of the British government, the names of such foolish Muslims should also be recorded in maps who secretly in their hearts consider British India to be Dar-ul-Harb. Therefore, this map has been proposed for this purpose so that in it the names of those ungrateful people who are men of such rebellious nature may be preserved. Although, by the good fortune of the Government, such people can be found among Muslims whose most secret intentions are against the government. Therefore, with the intention of political goodwill towards the government, we wanted to record the names of these mischievous people as much as possible on this auspicious occasion (meaning their names should be recorded) who prove corrupt situations with their beliefs. But we respectfully inform the government that such maps will be kept safe with us like a political secret until the government asks us for them. We hope that our government, like a wise man, will keep these maps safe in one of its offices as a national secret. As if the duties of the chief informer that the gentleman was performing were his achievement, and this was at a time when a large number of Muslims were being sent to Kala Pani (cellular jail) or being put on the gallows. He has also given a long list that from 1893 until the establishment of Pakistan, he not only participated in every pain and suffering of Muslims but was at the forefront. In 1893, Mirza Sahib had become quite old. But the thing about his participation in whatever work was done regarding this is that whatever calamities befell the Muslims in this country, that is, in connection with Jihad, they are in their place, this was not the question itself, his work in this was only to inform, or to provide soldiers to the British. But apart from this, whatever constructive work was done, for example, Aligarh was established, other schools were established, Anjuman Himayat-e-Islam Lahore was established, I will have to refrain from quoting in this regard. In it, he said that Sir Syed made a great effort and said, give one rupee as donation. He said no, this cannot be. Mirza Bashiruddin has written that why, that is, in it, he has written, he told the people of his community that why do you want to join others. Mirza Sahib always had this It has been the norm that those people come by any name, nor become members of any other association. Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja: Mr. Chairman! Ansari Sahib is repeatedly calling Mirza by the name of Mirza Sahib. This hurts the sentiments of Muslims. He should not be called by the name of Mirza Sahib. Mr. Chairman: When it is your turn, you can call as you wish. Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja: Sir! This hurts the sentiments of Muslims. He is an illegitimate child, he should be called by that name. Mr. Chairman: You cannot give any opinion during someone's speech. Take it, Ansari Sahib! Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: Therefore, he did not take interest in any association that was doing constructive work, or fighting against the British, or Jihad, all these things are related to the collective issues of Muslims. In the era when calamities befell the Muslims, prominent calamities came in the beginning of the twentieth century. The Tripoli War started. The Balkan War started. After that, the British started a war against the Turks. During this period, an incident happened in the local Kanpur mosque which caused outrage throughout India and many Muslims were martyred in it. Then the Khilafat Movement started. Then the story of Jallianwala Bagh started in which Muslims and Hindus were sometimes involved. The Turkish Empire was abolished, lamps were lit in Qadian on it, and it was very boldly misrepresented that all Muslims were lighting lamps, we also gave a few lamps. He illuminated it. What should I call such a falsehood? I was a student at the time, but I remember the scene very well. I was in school. I know there was a complete strike. So many arrests took place that day, just for saying to light lamps and distribute sweets. Anyway, there were people in the city who were sycophantic and had vested interests. It happened in places. But the Muslims went on strike that day and expressed their anger and resentment. Then in 1922, when the Turks were victorious over the Greeks in Smyrna, a wave of joy spread among the Muslims. Some people, his followers, said that we should also light lamps. So he said that there was no need to light lamps on this occasion. Sangathan After this, there are two things in which he participated. One is Shuddhi and Sangathan movement, which was started by the person who had achieved a prominent position in the freedom war and the Muslims respected him greatly. Later he went to jail and after going to jail, the government made some deal with him and after getting out of jail, he started the Shuddhi movement (Dayanand). He definitely went in this. But what was there? It was a very good hunting ground where he could get men for his party. He undoubtedly went in it. The second big thing that they say is that he participated in the Kashmir Committee and the condition of his participation in the Kashmir Committee is this. Allama Iqbal was also included in it, and there were many other dignitaries. With your permission, I present an excerpt from "Masla-e-Kashmir" written by Mumtaz Ahmed about it. In 1931, when the Tehreek-e-Hurriyat started in the state and the state Muslims formally started struggling to achieve political freedom. This is a quotation from Al-Fadl. is Hazrat Imam Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya (Arabic). Who were already waiting for a suitable opportunity, suddenly came into the field of action. What happened after that? The All India Kashmir Committee was established in Shimla on July 25. Allama Iqbal was also included in it. But the presidency was entrusted to Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood. The reason for this was that Mirza Sahib was actually the one who planned the Kashmir Committee. And the majority of the people who gathered in Shimla were Ahmadis. The aim of the committee, which has been stated in the beginning, was to get the state Muslims their due rights and provide legal assistance to the Muslims who were suffering the hardships of imprisonment. Direct contacts were established with all Kashmiri leaders on behalf of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya. Qadiani leaders were sent to the state in large numbers where they met people and tried to make the Muslims indebted to them by providing financial assistance. And during this time, hundreds of preachers were sent who started preaching Qadiani beliefs by visiting every corner of the state. Most of the funds for the relief of the victims of the freedom movement in this state were given through Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah. All the sympathies of the Qadianis were with Sheikh Abdullah as compared to Chaudhry Abbas and Sheikh Sahib's relations with the Jamaat were getting very close. And in Lahore, the sad rumor gained strength that Sher-e-Kashmir Sheikh Abdullah is a Mirzai. Then Sheikh Sahib himself came to Lahore and denied it in a meeting. The Kashmir Committee continued to work in the same way. But its constitution was not yet made. And when its political objectives became clear to the people. So they tried to make it a constitution. But Mirza Basheer-ud-Din did not like this because he was working as a dictator in it. And when insisted on making a constitution, Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood resigned from the presidency of the committee in protest. And then Allama Iqbal was elected the new president of the committee. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2895 But as soon as he (Mirza Basheer-ud-Din) resigned, all the Qadiani gentlemen stopped taking interest in the work of the committee and boycotted the practical committee. Even the Qadiani lawyers who were fighting the cases of Muslims in the state left the cases incomplete and returned. And when the work of the committee was disrupted, Allama Iqbal also resigned from the presidency, disheartened by the attitude of the Qadianis. And I will state a few sentences about Allama Iqbal's complaints about this: "Unfortunately there are members in the Committee who recognise no loyalty except to the head of their particular religious sect. This was made clear by a public statement recently made by one of the Ahmadi pleaders who had been conducting the Mirpur cases. He plainly admitted that he recognises no Kashmir Committee, and admits that whatever he and his colleagues did was done in obedience to the commands of their religious leader. I confess that I interpreted this statement as a general indication of the Ahmad's attitude of mind of felt doubts about the Kashmir Committee. I do not mean to stigmatise anybody. A man is free to develop any attitude intellectually and spiritually to suit his mind best. Indeed I have every sympathy for a man who needs a spiritual probe and finds one in the shrine of by-gone saint or any living priest. As far as I am aware, there are no differences of opinion among members of the Kashmir Committee regarding the General Committee's policy to the formation of a party on the ground of differences in policy. Nobody can object, but according to my view of the situation the differences in the Kashmir Committee are based on considerations which I believe are utterly irrelevant. I do not believe that a smooth working is possible and feel that in the best interests of all concerned the present Kashmir Committee should cease to exist." In any case, they created a situation where if the Kashmir Committee was not allowed to be used for the propagation of Qadianism, then they should leave it. This was the state of the Kashmir Committee. 2896 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (3rd Sep., 1974 Regarding the favor he mentioned in connection with the creation of Pakistan, the situation is this: after Allama Iqbal's article, when their secret began to be revealed to the people, and because they were more numerous in Punjab, the Punjab Muslim League passed a resolution stating that no Qadiani could be a member of the Muslim League. This resolution was presented not just once, but multiple times. I will now recite a few sentences to you regarding their mindset at that time. This is from the newspaper Al-Fazl of 1916. We should remember that when the Muslim League was mentioned in the presence of Hazrat Masih Maud Mahdi Akhir-ul-Zaman (peace be upon him), i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Sahib, the reformer of the world, the guide of Muslims, Hazrat Mirza expressed his disapproval regarding it. So, can a task that is disapproved of by God's chosen appointee be favorable or blessed for Muslims? Never. You people should continue to prevent them from participating in politics in any way. And as far as the Muslim League is concerned, this is a quotation from Paigham-e-Sulah of 1930: Now even the Muslim League, whose members are considered liberal and tolerant and are considered the leading spirit of India, has prepared an affidavit that the candidate who will stand for the assembly on their behalf will take an oath that upon going to the assembly, he will make efforts to have Ahmadis recognized as a separate minority from Muslims. This is Al-Fazl of December 10, 1936. Now this is from 1937: After this, Hazrat Mian Mahmood Ahmad, Khalifa of Qadian, while mentioning the country's politics, states and sheds light on the question of whether the Ahmadiyya community should participate in Congress or the Muslim League. This is from 1937: "Hazrat stated that we have not yet formed any opinion regarding this, nor should any friend form an opinion yet. Rather, Congress, when it openly declares without any intermediary and without any doubt that there is no restriction on preaching religion and conversion of religion." QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2897 Until that time, we cannot join Congress. And similarly, the Muslim League has stated that no Ahmadi can be its member. Then which shameless Ahmadi would join it, unless the League clearly announces that Ahmadis can be members of the Muslim League and can stand as candidates from Muslim constituencies. Similarly, there are many quotations. But I will suffice with this much. However, on that day, they presented a photocopy of the 1944 resolution in which it was stated that Hazrat Maulana Abdul Hameed Badayuni (may his sins be forgiven) had presented a resolution that Ahmadis, Mirzais, whom the entire community has unanimously declared as infidels, should not become members of the Muslim League and should not be allowed to enter the Muslim League. And Quaid-e-Azam had it withdrawn after speaking to him. This is a meeting of the council in which many people who participated are still alive. And I was its State Secretary at that time. The meeting that took place in Muhammad Ali Barkat Ali Hall, the resolution was brought to me by Maulana Sahib and he consulted me. I translated it into English and the resolution was included in the agenda. When its time came, Quaid-e-Azam said that who is Ahmadi? There might be some people in Punjab, they have already passed it, so why are you bringing up an irrelevant issue. That was all. And it was his nature that during the struggle, he wanted no irrelevant thing to come up. That's all he said. And Maulana said that it is okay, this decision is already there, this decision also exists in All India Muslim League. And which Ahmadi is coming anyway. Therefore, that resolution was dropped in such a way that it is said that Quaid-e-Azam rejected the resolution. This is like the height of falsehood. The Muslim League and the entire Muslim community considered them a festering wound, a bad growth for the body of the nation, politically and religiously. Muslims did not feel at peace among these people. However, in '36, Jawaharlal Nehru came to Lahore. 2898 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep. 1974 Brought on May 29, so like there is a metaphorical Hajj, a metaphorical prophet, and a metaphorical Quran, similarly they say that they have no relation to politics, so an Indian National League was formed in Qadian. And when Jawahar Lal Nehru came, 500 volunteers came to Qadian and their great respected lawyer Chaudhry Nasrullah Sahib was given the title of Quaid-e-Azam, so a metaphorical Quaid-e-Azam was also made, and he took the salute. Big banners of Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru were put up, placards were put up. After that people objected. I am leaving that excerpt due to lack of time. Mirza Bashir Mahmood's statement is why people objected. Jawahar Lal Nehru supported me in opposition to Allama Iqbal, who had a resolution that they should be declared a non-Muslim minority, so they supported us, if they had not come, they were welcomed by a political organization, they were welcomed, a welcome address was presented to them. So what is the matter of support in this? Now a political organization was also formed there, so this is a brief account of participation in Muslim affairs. And on April 5, that is, when the time for the formation of Pakistan was approaching, they had relations on both sides. They were trying that in 1946 Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru recommended Chaudhry Zafarullah Sahib's name for the International Court of Justice, which is present in his book Tuhdat-e-Nemat. And this was the time of 1946 when Congress and Muslim League or Hindus and Muslims feelings were very intense between. At that time, their relations were such that throughout India Jawahar Lal Nehru recommended his name from all the big lawyers there, but at that time he was not successful. It is another matter in the election that on April 15, 1947, he gave a statement which is also filed here that we want to create Akhand Bharat at all costs and despite our efforts and wishes if Pakistan is formed then our efforts will continue in some way or the other to make Akhand QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2899 India should become one. This is their very famous belief. And that excerpt, rather a photocopy, has been submitted here. This was said by him on April 5, and in response to a question on April 12, he stated - the question was from a reporter - "Is Pakistan practically possible?" This question and answer was published in Review of Religions, Volume 18, Number 2. The question was, "Is Pakistan practically possible?" Answer: "From a political and economic point of view, Pakistan is possible, but my personal opinion is that there is no need to divide the country into parts. Today, the secret of the world's success lies in unity. Other means of communication also tell us that we must necessarily get closer and closer to each other and strive for unity. So then what is the reason that at this juncture, India should be divided into two separate parts and the major communities of India should separate from each other?" This was on April 12. Similarly, there is a statement of June 13 from the same article. Then there is one from June 17. After that, there is a statement from August 18, 1947, that is, after the creation of Pakistan. And one from December 28. So at the time of partition, the Ahmadiyya Community received this revelation: (Arabic) Meaning: "Wherever you are, Allah will bring you together." In this revelation, there is an aspect of glad tidings and also a style of expectation. There has already been some expectation, that is, some of our communities have gone to Pakistan and some to India. It is possible that Allah Almighty may create some way of bringing them together. This coming together of both is, in any case, continuously ongoing. Due to the circumstances of December 13, people, panicking, have begun to consider the lands purchased in Qadian as lost and, considering the paid price as a trust, are demanding its return. I had stated in my notes that such a demand is not only wrong and illegitimate according to business principles but also religiously. 2900 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 is a sign of weak faith because in reality, this demand hides the suspicion that such people consider Qadian doubtful, even though it is God's promise that we will surely get Qadian back, Insha'Allah. etc., etc. Now, how will we get it? There are only two possibilities. Either we conquer Qadian, or God forbid, their plan for Akhand Bharat is completed. So, as far as conquering Qadian is concerned, the government of Pakistan has to decide this, and for the past 27 years, the government of Pakistan has always announced that we have no concern with the borders of any other country, we will not commit aggression against anyone. With what formula do they want to achieve this? Do they want to create a situation by instigating a war between Pakistan and India, or whatever it is, I don't know. Now, after that, the matter of December 28th. A believer is one who does not merely believe in God upon hearing, but whose faith is based on complete certainty and conviction. He knows and knows well that this division is a temporary division. He knows well that Qadian is our thing. It is ours because God has given it to me, though we cannot go to Qadian today, but today we have been deprived. But our faith and conviction tell us again and again that Qadian is ours. It is the center of Ahmadiyyat. It will always remain the center of Ahmadiyyat. Insha'Allah, no matter how big or small the government is, or even a collection of governments, can permanently deprive us of Qadian. If this earth does not give us Qadian, then the angels of our God will descend from the sky and give us Qadian. Whatever power stands in the way will be torn to pieces, it will be destroyed. etc., etc. These are, as it were, their intentions. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2901 Along with this, they have a system of devotees from whom this covenant is taken that, "Knowing God Almighty to be present and watching, we confess that God Almighty has declared Qadian to be the center of the Ahmadiyya community. I will continue to make every effort and strive to fulfill this command and will never lose sight of this goal, and I will always prepare myself, my wife, my children, and if God wills, my children's children, to be ready for every small and great sacrifice for the sake of Qadian. O God, grant me the strength to remain steadfast in this promise and to fulfill it." Now, the question here arises that whatever the story of Qadian may be, as I mentioned before, whether the decision is made in Qadian or elsewhere, in any case, if it is within our power, we would want the whole of Pakistan to become Qadian. But whether this decision is to be made by the Mirzais or the Government of Pakistan, the Government of Pakistan, it is openly declared that we do not have to aggress in anyone's area. Now, after the creation of Pakistan, their intentions, which have repeatedly appeared in these writings, are that we have to make it Akhand Bharat, unite it. After that, one of their other regrets was that, "Alas, we do not have any area where there is no one other than Ahmadis." Now, there was no need for there to be no one other than Ahmadis there. Anyway, they fulfilled that wish here. They had made Qadian almost the same way before. The lives of the Muslims who lived there had been made miserable, to the point that a kind of tax was taken from those shopkeepers, just like they call it "Jizya" from non-Muslims in communities. Taxes were taken from those poor shopkeepers, and they had an agreement that... 2902 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 We will not associate with those who oppose us, and anyone found doing so would be punished in such a way that they could never return to Rabwah. There was murder, houses were burned, sometimes other things happened. After this, a plan was made that Balochistan should be captured first. And that excerpt, since in my opinion, already exists, the population is ten lakh, twelve lakh, if we try our best, if not the whole of Pakistan, at least one province can be our own. That wish is not fulfilled. And one of Mirza Sahib's last revelations was this: "Oh, many a desire that turned to dust was not fulfilled." But their intrigues continue. Their series to seize power in Pakistan continues unabated. For the first time in our country, an attempt was made to change the government through a military coup, and the names of the people involved are not hidden. Since then, this effort has continued, until in a final phase, I will ignore these middle things and come to the part where East Pakistan was lost. The situation became so bad that all political parties started trying to do something about it. Someone suggested that a political understanding should be reached with Mujibur Rahman so that Pakistan would not be divided into two. When the situation deteriorated so much, these efforts continued. People from different parties went there from here, held negotiations. At the same time, Sir Zafarullah wrote a letter to a friend in Islamabad on March 8. The name of this friend was not disclosed, but it was said that there were two such friends who were very close to the political leaders of West Pakistan, and were influential. He sent this letter in Urdu. By process of elimination, one can guess to whom this letter would be addressed among those who counted at that time. His language too QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2903 It is very religious, which is more common within a particular class. In it, they write, I will read that letter. Its gist is this, and they assure that "there is no question of East Pakistan and West Pakistan staying together. Therefore, forget this from your heart. Now, don't wage war and separate peacefully." It is as if they want to prove this by putting all their lifelong international experience and its force on people's minds. Therefore, they have written to a very influential friend of theirs. And people can guess for themselves who would be among his influential friends close to Baiti Sahib in those days. The letter is: "Based on the signs and indications mentioned in the newspapers, and Allah knows best. The thoughts that revolve in this humble servant's mind are submitted for consideration. The chain that could bind East Pakistan and West Pakistan together could only be those who are sincere to the religion. Otherwise, climate, language, food, appearance, features, dress, even leaving aside worship, the social structure and mental thoughts are all different. Now trust is lost, and nationality has dominance over religious sentiments. On the other hand, the whole world worships the right to self-determination. In the East and West, the population ratio is seven and six, and in terms of area, it is one to eighty-one. The East is adamant on separation. The West has no decisive argument against it. Even if there were, the East would not listen and be willing to consider it. History is a witness that coercion is not only a futile word but tantamount to suicide. If a gulf of blood, God forbid, intervenes, then the party will not be able to go, and the loss of wealth can be compensated, but the loss of life cannot be compensated. And bitterness of neighborhood is inevitable in any case. Then, even if one manages to get along somehow with coercion for a few days, there is no way to increase mutual connection. Therefore, willingly or unwillingly, the method of beautiful separation is the only one that can work. There are many difficulties in its path. Perhaps today 2904 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (3rd Sep., 1974 be able to deal with mutual understanding. After a few days, this possibility may also disappear. But the reality is that In the present situation, الإمساک بالمعروف is not possible and the only way is to تصریح بالإحسان. This is as if If there is a dispute between husband and wife, then according to the Holy Quran, there are two ways. Either happily End this dispute and live in a good way. If this is not possible, then with a good heart, in a good way, Cut off contact. So they say that only one way is left, to cut off contact. Both will face difficulties Will happen. But turn to Allah Almighty, i.e. He is capable of Hama bafazala. If at this time If bitterness is not increased, then perhaps tomorrow, after reviewing their respective homes, some way Friendly cooperation, brotherly aid emerges. The present situation is the cause of many dangers and Facing ridicule and shame." This is a letter in which he tries to persuade his influential friend that ahsan bilmaroof, that is, both arms living together in the form of one country, is It is impossible and no effort should be made for it now. One way is clearly separation One should look at Jamila. This is the contribution of this group in connection with the protection of the unity and integrity of Pakistan. Now besides this, I would like to present some glimpses of the aims and preparations that are ahead to you through quotations. So today for the work that They are busy, a decision of the Kashmir Committee was made last year. There was commentary on it, it is very meaningful. I present a sentence to you. Yes, before that, 26/27/28 Annual session of 1947, in the Friday sermon in it, Mirza Bashiruddin Sahib's announcement is that Mafa Aida Allah Almighty said that the real session will be considered as the one held by the resident Ahmadis in Qadian. Lahore session is its shadow. That is, it is not a shadow session. And it will be considered in its support and in this matter. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2905 ...against, as a protest, that this group has been deprived of its holy religious center, which has always been loyal and peaceful to the government of the time. Previously, a similar resolution was passed in Kashmir. On this, their current Caliph is famous." So, if nine or twelve people pass such a resolution, what effect can it have on the community established by God? The resulting problems that may arise are not that the Ahmadiyya community will become non-Muslim. If Allah Almighty calls a community Muslim, what difference does it make if some ignorant person declares it non-Muslim? Therefore, we are not worried about this. We are worried that if this evil, God forbid, reaches its extreme, then Pakistan will not survive as a result of such discord and strife. So, this is a warning that they gave at that time. What arrangements are in place to prevent Pakistan from being established, I cannot explain in more detail at this time. But this servant of the Ahmadiyya community bears great responsibilities. We have a council, our young generation, which has been trained in such a way that they have the power to bear the increasing responsibilities and burdens. Basically, there are two types of burdens on the human body. One is the burden that directly affects his physical and mental faculties. The other burden is that which indirectly affects his physical and religious faculties. The training that this community wants to give to its dear children is to develop their physical strengths in such a way that they can bear the burden of fulfilling dual responsibilities. One of the methods that has been recently introduced is the use of bicycles. When this movement started in Islam, it was briefly pointed out that one should pay attention to cycling in order to maintain their health. The number that has come to my knowledge at this time is 662. But this includes those who have not yet registered their names. It is expected that some today... 2906 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (3rd Sep., 1974 will arrive. Among them are those who can travel approximately ninety to one hundred miles daily on bicycles from Karachi, passing through Thar, Sindh, etc. They have said this. I had mentioned it before, and I repeat it today. I urgently need one hundred thousand Ahmadi bicycles. Ahmadi bicycles are those ridden by Ahmadis. And I need one hundred thousand such Ahmadis who are accustomed to traveling one hundred miles daily. Traveling miles daily, our Ahmadi will be covering a journey of one crore miles in a day. This is a great movement, and there is blessing in movement. When we experimented, everyone, except for those whom Allah wills, viewed it with favor. Why do we need one hundred thousand cyclists? I am about to present a major plan before you all. I am preparing for that as well. I am also preparing your minds for it. So, this is a program to strengthen physical strength. Halaku Khan, Genghis Khan, who left their countries to conquer the world and did conquer it, had horses that were not allowed to dismount for seven to eight hundred miles. Halaku Khan, Genghis Khan, is written in bold headlines. Attention is being drawn there. Now, along with that, there is a request for ten thousand horses, that ten thousand horses be prepared. And those ten thousand horses should belong to Ahmadis. And these riders are being trained in lance-playing. Now I am reading an excerpt. Along with it, how Khuddam-ul-Ahmadiyya has been mentioned. As a symbol of a Khadim, a handkerchief has been suggested. Because time was short, only about five hundred could be prepared, and some have bought them. I want every Khadim-e-Islam in the world to have this handkerchief. A ring is added to this handkerchief. The Jewish people are a very clever nation. They try to spread their greatness on every front in the world. Therefore, when the idea of this handkerchief and ring came to me, I thought we should devise our own ring. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2907 I wish I could see four sentences on the walls of Alhambra: (1) La Ghaliba Illallah (2) Al-Qudrat Allah (3) Al-Khām Allah (4) Al-Izzat Allah. Taking advantage of these, this has been proposed. For ordinary children and servants, that is, every member, a ring of Al-Qudrat Allah, and for those who are obedient, a ring of Al-Izzat Allah. This is the symbol of Lajna Ima'illah, but the color of their scarves is different. Otherwise, the general color for flags is green. Only the flag is mentioned. Now it has been greatly emphasized. If the scarf remains smaller than one yard, then the other benefits we have in mind through it... much has been written about the scarf. Anyway, there is a ring and scarf in Scouts too. But this is for some very big work, and after reading this, I remembered the ring and scarf of the time of Dalhousie, which thugs used to use, they had a scarf and a ring, and through it, they would immediately kill people by strangling their necks. Now, this one lakh cyclists, ten thousand horses and lancers, what is all this preparation for? Is this preparation to take back Qadian, or is it, as they have said many times, to establish their own government? Anyway, these are things that we cannot ignore. The time has come that we should deal with this issue with full preparation. I will mention one more thing. At the time when this Boundary Commission incident occurred, and you have seen excerpts from April 5th to August 1947, rather December 1947, which I have presented before you, in which it is clear everywhere that they could not align their minds with the establishment of Pakistan. But when the time of the Boundary Commission came, Chaudhry Zafarullah Sahib himself writes. This is a very interesting excerpt, because on the one hand, Mirza Bashir Mahmood Sahib writes this... 2908 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 3rd Sep., 1974 are saying that we have to make Akhand Bharat, and we have to continue trying. But as soon as the Boundary Commission was appointed, they became so interested in the Muslim League's case that even the Muslim League's leaders were not that interested. I am reminded of the English proverb: "A woman that loves a child more than its mother does, must be a witch." So, this is a brief excerpt, "Tuhdees-e-Nemat" (Author: Chaudhry Zafarullah Sahib Page: 56) Hazrat Khalifatul Masih II was present in Lahore those days. On Wednesday afternoon, Maulana Abdur Rahim Dard Sahib came and said that Hazrat Sahib had sent me to inquire at what time you would come and provide information regarding certain aspects of the partition. This humble servant (i.e., Zafarullah) submitted that whenever His Holiness commands, this humble servant will present himself in His Holiness's service. Dard Sahib said that His Holiness has stated that you are engaged in the performance of a very important national duty. Your time is very precious. You should continue with your work. We will come there. In the current circumstances, this is appropriate. Therefore, His Holiness came and gave copies of some very useful references regarding the principles of partition to this humble servant and said that we have sent an order to England to get the original books. If those books arrive in time, then they will be sent to you as well. He also said that we have acquired the services of every expert professor for the defense of our cause at our expense. They have reached Lahore and are preparing maps, etc. are busy with. After preparing the written statement, make time to consult with them. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2909 to extract. He will come here and explain this aspect to you. Consequently, the relevant books arrived in Qadian from England, and from there, a motorcyclist brought them to Lahore in a sidecar, and they were available to us during the discussion. They helped us a lot. The professor who came was named Professor Speight. Professor Speight explained the defensive aspect to me very well. Etc., etc. Now, what defensive aspect was explained? I had written a letter to him through you, asking him to send us a book of Professor Speight's observations and recommendations. They did not send it, as to what defensive aspect was explained to him about how Pakistan was to be made. And Mirza Sahib was the most interested in this regard. That thing is not with us, but the earlier intentions that are coming to the fore, and the map that is being drawn after that, gives an idea of what it will be. Mr. Chairman: Sir, how long will you take? Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Whenever you say. Mr. Chairman: I won't say at all. You have already taken 2-1/2 hours. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Alright, sir. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: I am not stopping you, I just asked. Why do you feel ill when I ask how long you will take? I am sorry. 2910 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Sep., 1974 Members are I only asked so I could adjust. Some ladies have left, and the rest are looking at their watches. Some are telling me they need to eat. That's why I asked so I could adjust. I am not saying that he is not saying useful words. You think that you believe that these are useful words and I do not believe that these are useful words? I made a mistake by telling you not to read fast. I am sorry for that. I apologize before the whole House. I only said that so you could get it cyclostyled and give it to us. That will be useful; and give oral arguments, that would be better. How long will you take? I just need to adjust. That is all. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I think if you accept the request I made... Mr. Chairman: When did I refuse that? At that time, Mr. Hanif Khan had said to give it in writing. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: My request is that I also feel that the members must be quite tired. Mr. Chairman: From their expressions; that is why I cut it short. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2911 Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: I will end it here. If you give me half an hour that day, I will try... Mr. Chairman: If you deem it appropriate, then after the Attorney General, however... Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: Yes, that much time won't be a problem. Mr. Chairman: If you feel the need. I said this because it is 1:30, and you said you would take an hour. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: I said an hour and a half. Mr. Chairman: Half an hour has already passed, you started at half-past eleven before the break. The break was at twelve o'clock. We started again at 12:25. It is now 1:35. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: Alright. Then keep it for that day. If they are ready, then give me the first half hour. I mean, it takes some time to arrive as well. I will do it then. Mr. Chairman: Absolutely right, thank you. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: If I can write something, which is not very likely, then I will do that too. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman: Okay, thank you very much. Mr. Jamal Koreja! How much time will you take approximately? Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja: Two minutes, sir. Sir! The issue of Mirzaism has been under discussion for about a month and a half. The discussion is only on the issue of whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is a prophet or not. I regret to say that Pakistan is the world's... 2912 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 Considered a great Islamic state. In the eyes of the world, it was called a very big Islamic country. But today we have become infamous in all countries. A matter that is not a disputed matter, this matter is with Allah Almighty has resolved it. Allah Almighty has said that there can be no prophet after the Prophet, nor can there be. I have completed the religion upon them. Whoever claims it, he is an infidel, he is an apostate, he deserves to be killed. Then Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claimed prophethood. The British He was nurtured in the way he was nurtured. Then came the era of Muslims. Twenty-seven years have passed gone. Our governments then gave him more patronage than the British. So we people Today in front of any Islamic country. We cannot say that we have faith. Faith belongs to those people Those who did not allow the claimant to live or give respite in this world even for a moment and to them fought against and consigned them to hell. Allah Almighty has decided that no prophet will come after the Prophet. can come. The Prophet said that if a prophet were to come after me, it would be Umar. Hazrat Siddiq Akbar proved it It is true that the Prophet's command is correct, Allah's command is correct. Musailima Kazzab made a claim. Hazrat Siddiq Akbar fought against him and destroyed him. There are similar left and right have passed too. Who have made claims. The same fate befell them too. But this is the only one A kingdom has come which, for a month and a half, has been sitting here with a bastard sect and asking them for arguments. You are being asked to present evidence of your prophethood whether you are right or wrong. What scope is there for the Prophet Is not the Seal of the Prophets? Who makes a little room on it that the Prophet was not the Seal of the Eye? If If a person even thinks a little, even a little doubt comes into his mind, then he is an infidel. His faith does not remain. A man asked Hazrat Imam Azam (may God have mercy on him) about a QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL MODVODI how we should deal with him. The Prophet (PBUH) said to wage jihad against him. If you If you just ask him to show a miracle, then you will be just as guilty as he is guilty. Meaning, asking for a miracle is also polytheism. And we have been discussing this for a month and a half whether they are infidels or not. This is a matter of shame for us. Mr. Chairman: Excuse me, we are not discussing this. Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja is doing exactly the same. Mr. Chairman: No, sorry. Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja is exactly the same discussion going on. Mr. Chairman: You have neither read the resolutions nor have you listened to the debate. Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja Tell me why did he come here? Why did Mirza Nasir come? Mr. Chairman: I don't want to get into an argument with you. It was that a resolution came -to determine the status of the Ahmedis. Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja: In your language, in your language. Mr. Chairman: That it should be clarified what is the status of Qadianis, Ahmedis. One A resolution came from your side that they should be declared a non-Muslim minority. The remaining two or three Resolutions have come, and none of them has presented any resolution that they are Muslims or infidels. Therefore, this discussion was not at all a clarification for which they were called, for which they were interrogated and questions were asked and this The questions were also given by the members, they did not come from outside. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 13th Sep., 1974 Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja: So, sir! What else is being proven by declaring them a minority? Mr. Chairman: Do not insult the members in this way. They themselves had compiled these questions. Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja: I am not insulting any member, I am stating my faith and my belief that these people… Mr. Chairman: No, why are you messing up the assembly like this? Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja: Sir! I would have finished in two minutes, you have unnecessarily taken so much time. Mr. Chairman: No, you are wrong. Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja: Can't I argue? Mr. Chairman: The members of the assembly have strong faith. Khawaja Jamal Muhammad Koreja: But my faith allows me to argue about it. Like people have given big arguments that he was bad because he was loyal to the British, he was bad because he spent his whole life with the British, he was loyal to them, he was their beneficiary. If a man is free from all these flaws and he claims prophethood, then should he be accepted? It is not a matter of whether he was loyal or not, I say that his biggest crime is that he claimed prophethood, therefore, he deserves to be killed. He is an apostate and his living, his lifestyle in our Muslim society is against Islam. I would request the government that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad... QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2915 Is an illegitimate child, whoever was an illegitimate child, their group is also illegitimate, apostate, polytheist. Those who give them shelter are also infidels and apostates. Those who deal with them are also polytheists. Therefore, they should be immediately removed from this holy land and this country should be purified. Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Maulana Abdul Haq Akora Khattak! How much time will you take? Maulana Abdul Haq: As much as you say. Mr. Chairman: You are a signatory anyway, they are getting less time who have signed and written a two-hundred-page book, they are being given less time. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: I will take five minutes in this too. I have some suggestions. Mr. Chairman: Then you take it the day after tomorrow morning. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: As you deem fit. Mr. Chairman: Yes. Maulana Abdul Haq Sahib! How much time will you take? Maulana Abdul Haq: Five to ten minutes. Mr. Chairman: Finish in five minutes. Maulana Abdul Haq: Okay. Mr. Chairman: Okay, start, he is leaving after giving a speech. It's just that he vented his emotions, gave a speech, and left. You have taken five minutes, then we will adjourn for the day after tomorrow. Chaudhary Mumtaz Ahmed: Mr. Chairman! Core Bucha Sahib is leaving now. 2916 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (3rd Sep., 1974 Mr. Chairman: Exactly. Calm down your emotions, someone abused someone, then outside. A member: It's half past one. Mr. Chairman: He has to take five minutes, then Mufti Sahib has to take it. Then we will adjourn the House. Then all the members are satisfied. Maulana Abdul Haq: Mr. Chairman! Since there are five minutes, I would like to submit two or three things. Mr. Chairman: Yes, just give suggestions. Everything else has already come in this writing. Maulana Abdul Haq: Actually there are two issues. One issue is the finality of Prophethood that the Holy Prophet is the Seal of the Prophets and the Last Prophet. And one issue is whether the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are non-Muslims or Muslims. So, regarding this, it is requested that last year, like we passed and approved the constitution. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmed Ansari: Perhaps Maulana Sahib has misunderstood. The issue is not whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims. This is not the issue at all. The issue is how we clarify their constitutional and legal status. Mr. Chairman: That's what I told Korejo Sahib, what is their legal status and what can we do, what should we recommend. Maulana Abdul Haq: Okay. So, my request is that the issue of the finality of Prophethood is already decided in our constitution that a Muslim can be one who believes that Hazrat Muhammad is the last prophet and no metaphorical or shadow prophet can come after him. So, at the moment the situation is this. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2917 This issue has been settled according to the constitution. Now, the second issue is regarding Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Regarding that, based on books and references here, and the teachings of Mirza Nasir and Sadr-ud-Din, this thing, they have admitted that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has claimed prophethood. And whatever interpretations they made, after all those interpretations, they have now admitted that we consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet and that he claimed prophethood. The Lahori party also said that we call him a Mujaddid or inspired or something similar. But in response to the Attorney General's question, they said that yes, he can also be called a prophet because the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said, "Niazal Nabi Allah Isa bin Maryam" so our Attorney General said no (to the Lahori party) that when you want to apply prophethood from the Hadith of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then it means that you consider him a prophet. So both groups have accepted him as a prophet. Now, according to the constitution, whoever does not consider the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as the Seal of the Prophets is not a Muslim according to the constitution, he is a non-Muslim. So, in this case, their being non-Muslim (as it is in reality and in Sharia in the same way) according to the constitution, he will be a non-Muslim. Now, the second thing is that they object to us that you declare us a non-Muslim minority, so from our side it was said that do you call non-Ahmadis, that is, Muslims, Muslims or outside the circle of Islam? So both groups admitted this, the Lahoris said that non-Ahmadis are not real Muslims, and the Rabwah people said that non-Ahmadis are outside the circle of Islam and are infidels and pure infidels. They admitted this. Now here, when they call us infidels, pure. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 2918 They call us infidels, they say we are outside the circle of Islam, so obviously, by the grace of Allah, there is a distinction between us. We are Muslims. But if in their view we are a non-Muslim majority, whether you call yourselves Muslims or whatever, they will have to admit that compared to the majority of Muslims, meaning non-Mirzai Muslims, they are definitely a separate sect, they will have to acknowledge this. Or tell us, "Okay, you are a non-Muslim majority and admit that we are a Muslim minority," or that we are a Muslim majority (by the grace of Allah), then compared to that, you are a non-Muslim minority, just like Muslims were a minority in undivided India, and Hindus were a majority. In our view, Hindus were infidels, they are still infidels, they were infidels before too, so we never demanded that since we are in the minority, we should, God forbid (it never occurred to any Muslim), merge with the Hindus to achieve political goals. In reality, the Mirzais want to exploit us Muslims. Mr. Chairman: You should declare yourselves as the non-Ahmadi majority. If the issue is not resolved otherwise, it should be done this way. Maulana Abdul Haq: The thing is... Mr. Chairman: Okay, Maulana Mufti Mahmud! Maulana! These things have been discussed extensively. I would like to say that... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Mumtaz Sahib! Leave it. These things have been discussed. Maulana Abdul Haq: Okay. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL MISSOULA Mr. Chairman: Absolutely. Everyone's faith is strong. And that is almost the opinion of the House as well. Maulana Abdul Haq: I want to say a third thing. Mr. Chairman: Now Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sahib has to speak. This is the time for suggestions. Most people. Maulana Abdul Haq: Very well. That means the hatred or animosity of us Muslims with the Mirzais is now open. Before this, they had been destroying Muslims in an underground way. Now the point is that since our complete hatred has been revealed, now if they remain on our key positions, then I say can they be beneficial for Pakistan and Muslims, while we decide this at this time and may God give us, that is, this collective Assembly, the ability to declare them a non-Muslim minority, after that if they remain in key positions then surely they will destroy us even more. To save Muslims, it is necessary for the committee to give a decision on this issue that they should be removed from key positions. The remaining thing is that if such people are removed from key positions, then how will the administration of the country run? I say that Allah will run this system. Before this, our Prime Minister did a great job by removing thirteen hundred undesirable officers. At that time too, Allah ran the system. Therefore, I would request that they must be removed from key positions, and that purpose will not be achieved by just declaring them a non-Muslim minority. Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Maulana Mufti Sahib! Please speak. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Mr. Chairman, as far as the non-Muslim status of the Mirzais is concerned, it has been discussed in detail. There is no need for further addition to it. But regarding how to solve this problem, the first request is that here in this house, we have to think not as political parties but as Muslims. We want that this issue should not be used at all for the superiority or credit of any political party, and it should be resolved purely within religious and theological boundaries so that no one can use it for political purposes tomorrow. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Come and sit next to them, then listen to them. I will talk when they finish their speech. He is an honorable member of the House; he is making the proposals. This series continues every day. Ch. Mumtaz Ahmad: I am Sorry, Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: Sir, here we have to address this issue constitutionally... Mr. Chairman: Do you like to be interrupted when you are speaking? Do you like anybody else to hoot you? Chaudhry Mumtaz Ahmad: They don't listen. Mr. Chairman: He has said it, you do it too. When the time arises. When you are speaking in the Committee with good spirit, independent of any political consideration, the House Committee will decide this matter in the best interest of the nation. If you are making a political threatre, then go ahead will it. Yes, Molvi Mufti Mehmood. Molvi Mufti Mehmood: We will have to solve this issue as per the constitution, and in the constitution, we will have to decide to declare the Mirzais as a non-Muslim minority, whether an article is added to the constitution or It is also possible that in Article 106, where non-Muslim minorities are given representation in the provincial assemblies, there is mention of Christians, there is mention of Jews, there is mention of Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Mirzais should also be added with all these groups, and After that, it should be defined. In the definition, it is very clear that the Mirzais have a very open clear definition is that any person who, in a religious capacity, considers Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who claimed prophethood. Accept him as a leader, whether as a reformer, as the promised Messiah, as the guided Mahdi as a prophet, as a legislative prophet, or as a non-legislative prophet, as an express In any capacity, whether as a shadow or figurative or metaphorical or literal prophet, if he is religiously recognized as a leader, those people will be called Mirzais. The definition is very clear here. Some people think that the name of a person should not be mentioned in the constitution. For example, we say that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's followers are Mirzais. Their name should not be mentioned, so I think this There is nothing like that, after all, in this constitution, where we have given the words of the oath of the President and the Prime Minister. there the name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, is also there. For a Muslim His mention is there for identification. Therefore, if Mirza, who has claimed prophethood, his If his name is also mentioned in connection with the definition of his followers, then there is no harm in it. 2922 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep., 1974 In addition to this, I think that not only Mirzais should be praised, but Christians should be praised, Jews should be praised, Hindus should be praised, and Mirzais should also be praised there, so this thing will come under the praise of everyone. So I think that no one will feel bad if it is mentioned at the inter-provincial level, so it will not be a loan. In addition, those who think, as some things have come to our attention, that the definition of a Muslim should be included in the constitution, and the definition should be comprehensive and meaningful, they think that in this way, when the Mirzais are not included in the definition of a Muslim, they will automatically be declared a non-Muslim minority. Some people think that the definition of a non-Muslim should be given and its definition should not be like that of a non-Muslim, but this sect should also be included in it, but I think that today the demand of Muslims and this is the demand of the whole country, is not the demand for the definition of a Muslim, but the demand of the people is to decide in the constitution about a person and a specific group that exists in this country and whose religious beliefs are also in front of us, and whose political ambitions and purposes are also in front of us. I think that the demand of the people will not be fulfilled only by the definition. After that, we will have to go to the court and get a decision from the court. Therefore, we can agree on any such proposal, through which our lawyers or those who are experts in the constitution can say that now in this situation, after this amendment, this sect that exists in the country has been declared non-Muslim, then we will be satisfied. Mr. Speaker! We will also have to make a law, in which we will give this sect jobs etc. according to the rights of this sect or the rights of non-Muslim sects and the proportion of the population, about that. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2923 We will also have to make a law. And I believe that the administration can also be reformed in this way through the law. A complete definition can also be included in this law. It will not be a part of the constitution; it will be a law. I think it is necessary to include their definition in the law. In any case, we should resolve this issue in such a way that all Muslims are satisfied. This is also the requirement of democracy. We have to make a decision at this time in such a way that there is no political factionalism. These were the requests that I wanted to present. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Now the special Committee of the Whole House will meet day after tomorrow on 5th at 9.00 a.m., not tomorrow. Tomorrow there is no convenient time. The Prime Minister of Sri Lanka has to come tomorrow at about 11.00 a.m. If we could meet in the morning; but we cannot. The Attorney General has also asked me to fix it on 5th. Before that, I think, almost all the members will have expressed their views. If any member is left out, he can speak on the 5th or 6th. So, on 5th, we will meet at 9.00 a.m. and Attorney-General will sum up his arguments. Yes, Ch. Jahangir Ali, what do you want? Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman! I had to submit that when I concluded my speech, I said that this sect should be declared a non-Muslim minority. By this, I mean both the Lahori sect and the Rabwah sect because the Lahori sect also considers Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet. This has been proven by their statements. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: The Secretary of the National Assembly has sent a letter to the members. In it, he has stated that the joint sitting will begin at 6:15 p.m. Members have been asked to be present here by 5:15 p.m. 2924 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [3rd Sep.. 1974 Mr. Chairman: I have had a letter written today, it will reach you by this evening. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: The letter has been issued. Mr. Chairman: I have had a letter written today in my name, it will reach you by this evening. Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: I wanted to submit that it is written that the members should be present by 5:15. Mr. Chairman: The second letter, which states that you should come here fifteen minutes earlier. Please listen to me, that letter has been issued under my own signatures, which contains all the instructions, it will reach you by this evening. And the rest of the details are being finalized. After finalizing that, I will announce it in the House. The Prime Minister of Sri Lanka will address the Joint Session at 5.15 p.m. the members may come ten minutes earlier. Thank you very much. The Special Committee of the Whole House adjourned to meet at nine of the clock, in the morning, on Thursday, the 5th September, 1974. PCPP-1159(10) N.A.-15-05-2011-450. THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Thursday, September 5th, 1974 (Contains No. 1-21) CONTENTS Pages 1. Recitation from the Holy Qur'an 2. Qadiani Issue - General Discussion (Continued). 2621 2621-2696 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD No. 19 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Thursday, September 5th, 1974 (Contains No. 1-21) In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Thursday, September 5th, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at nine o'clock in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION Mr. Chairman: Mr. Muhammad Hanif Khan! Mr. Muhammad Hanif Khan: Mr. Speaker! The issue that is before this esteemed assembly has been presented to the committee of this entire house so that the committee can become aware of both the Lahore and Qadiani perspectives and, according to their positions, be able to make such a decision as to whether the motives that have emerged in our country from the Rabwah incident, this esteemed assembly and the esteemed members of the National Assembly can express some opinion or position regarding it. Mr. Speaker! I will not take much time. My esteemed members of the assembly have also given thorough speeches on this issue here, and the Attorney General Sahib, in the light of the evidence that has been presented before this committee, has also The gist of the case will be presented to this committee shortly. But I I definitely want to put it on record that as an individual regarding this, individual number and regarding myself, I would say what my impressions are. Mr. Speaker! I will not go into the fact that these founders belonged to which era, when they were born and what that time was in the history of Muslims. I will not say I will say that at that time the Ottoman Caliphate was in its final stages and against the Ottoman Caliphate all of Europe, Russia and all the powers of Europe that were bent on destroying the Muslims and they had made it their goal to shatter the unity of Islam, what conspiracies did they carry out internationally, and I will not say that at that time It was very appropriate and appropriate that such a weapon should come into the hands of these forces from some side so that they could lose or completely cool down the spirit of Jihad of the Muslims. I will not say I will say how they created that purpose. It is also evident from his testimony and Here, our esteemed members of the assembly have also stated how many books of Jihad to change the philosophy of, or according to their words or beliefs, on the advent of the Messiah, this how effective a role he played in changing the interpretation of Jihad. . Sir, religious people and scholars are sitting here. I will also not say that someone The translation of the verse of the Quran that we have been hearing since childhood and our ancestors and predecessors who have been teaching us, according to them, in a new form, in a is now being presented in translation. I will not say that their translation is correct is right or wrong because according to them it is definitely correct but for the rest of the general Muslims Neither has it been right before, nor do they consider it right now. The fundamental belief of Muslims is completely different from their belief regarding Hazrat Masih or Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him). We have always considered Hazrat Maryam to be pure, innocent, and free from every sin, according to the glad tidings of the Quran, and God willing, we will continue to do so. We can never have any doubt, God forbid, that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) was not a pure spirit. It is the belief of Muslims that he was a pure spirit, and due to this purity, he was not crucified; he was raised to the heavens, and according to our belief, he will come into the world at a time when disbelief prevails. I would like to clarify one thing here. I was not present, perhaps the scholars have clarified this or not. Their argument is that if Hazrat Masih Maud is alive, then Muhammad Rasulullah ﷺ cannot be considered the last prophet because if a living prophet exists, a living prophet exists, and he comes into this world after the last prophet in whom we believe, then his completion, his ending, or being the last, will be overshadowed, and the one who comes later will be considered the last. But according to our belief, if he comes, he will not come in the spirit of Christianity as a prophet, but as an Ummi (unlettered follower) behind the Imam Mahdi of the Muslims, and it will be an honor for him to acknowledge and declare that he adheres to the religion of our Muhammad Mustafa ﷺ, and he will feel proud of it. The second point I want to present before the esteemed members is that many things have been said. As I mentioned earlier, the need was to cool down the spirit of Jihad, so it seems from his martyrdom, from his books, that at that time, a particular school of thought was promoted for Jihad, and... After that, when it was observed that people were not ready to accept it completely, another sect emerged within it, calling themselves Lahori. I don't see any difference in the Lahori sect except for this, as I gathered from the testimony of the current beliefs of the Lahori sect and the Attorney General's cross-examinations of them that the meaning of "kufr doon kufr" (lesser disbelief) that they describe, they apply to themselves. But Muslims have never taken this meaning of "kufr doon kufr" at all, nor has it been meant that if someone challenges the prophethood of a prophet and does not accept the religious prophethood, but considers him a reformer, or a chosen one, or relates him to Islam in any way, then it is not "doon kufr" but it is the completion of disbelief and he is a complete disbeliever. I had asked a question, and you will remember, and that question was, in what sense has the term "kufr" been used and taken in the Holy Quran? So, Nasir Mahmood Sahib, the third Caliph, had said with great courage that the term "kufr" in the Quran is used only for the completion of the Islamic community and disbelief. And the second term that he has told us here and made prevalent is that one can remain in the Islamic community even if he is outside the circle of Islam. He stated that the word "kufr" or "kafir" (disbeliever) which is used in Islam, in the Quran, in a religious context, through a religious connection, completes both the circle of Islam and the community, and the meaning taken from it when that word is used in the Quran will be that he is outside of both. Sir! I don't understand, may I submit one thing that I will also request my scholars with great respect that they must keep this point in mind. We are facing the issue of majority and minority. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2625 I don't want to discuss it further, and the things I said, I said because the Attorney General was not here. Now he has arrived, and he will talk in more detail. In the end, I will say one thing: we have a question before us, and I want to give an answer to this question according to my knowledge and ability. The question is, who is a minority? Are they a minority or not? Are they a non-Muslim minority or a Muslim minority? Sir, they call themselves Muslims, and for those of us who do not believe in Mirza Sahib as the Promised Messiah, or who do not hold the same beliefs as them, they say that they are outside the circle of Islam. Sir, if we are excluded from their circle of Islam, then May Allah reward you. Here in Pakistan, 99.9 percent of the people are taken from those who are outside their circle. And if their word is taken and relied upon, then I would be right in saying that they have proven themselves to be a minority by their own words because, according to their statement, 99.9 percent, the majority, is separate from their circle, their marriages are separate from them, their worship is separate from them, their living is separate from them, their prophet is separate from them, their beliefs are separate from them, the translation of their verses is different from the verses of their Quran. So, sir, when Pakistan was created, we took the position that we are Muslims, our civilization is different, our worship is different, our religion is different, our God is different, we have nothing to do with the idols that the Hindus worship. So in that case, we got a separate homeland. And the Attorney General has very 2626 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept., 1974 Made them say this with their competence and eligibility and proved it in front of this house that when the Boundary Commission was giving the Radcliffe Award or deciding about Pakistan (Interruption) Mr. Speaker! I have such a protest on this matter that if we, who are clean-shaven or considered non-religious, make such a speech that is about religion, about Islam, about the Quran, then it is not right to move around like this. I would say with great respect that two scholars who consider themselves to be scholars and also consider themselves to be very expert in religion, a respected member is speaking and they are coming and going as if nothing is happening. This should not happen. If there is a serious matter, then a scholar should at least be very serious about it and such an impression should not be created in any speech. He is a scholar, he understands more than this respected member. And the things that the respected member is saying, are not anything special. So, I was saying that when Pakistan was being formed, we took a stand that why are we separate from the Hindus. I talk about minority and majority because at that time the Muslims themselves said that we are a minority, therefore we are a separate nation. Our worship is separate, our general rule of worship is separate, our funeral is separate, we bury in the ground and offer funeral prayers. And the Hindus, they burn it and they play drums and instruments on it. We had said that we cannot eat with them because it is definitely forbidden for us, but the Hindu also understands that the Muslim cannot eat with him. Since our social life, our religious life was different from the Hindus, therefore we are a separate religion, a separate nation. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2627 Declared. So we have seen in this house, Sir! You have also seen in this house, maybe I would have been the first person if they had even said this much in this house that we are Muslims. But the one who does not believe in Mirza Sahib and believes in Muslim God and the Messenger and the Book and Sunnah, we do not call him a non-Muslim. Then still there would have been some room. But how ironic it would be if a witness appeared here and told me that I consider you an infidel, I consider you outside the circle of Islam. And I should not be allowed to say this or I should not dare to say this or I should not even be able to say that brother! If we are out of your circle of Islam, then we also consider you out of our circle of Islam. Mr. Speaker! I am not saying this, they said it. Because they have excluded us. We accepted their saying. I think all the respected members will support their saying that God Almighty has had His mercy and grace on us that we are out of their circle. Therefore, it would be unfair to them if we do not say that they are out of our circle of Islam. Mr. Speaker! I would like to submit with great apology that in the end the matter of procedure remains. We have not declared them anything, we have not declared them a minority so far. Nor have we separated their religion from us so far. They themselves say that we are separate from you, you are out of our circle of Islam. The points that I took from them, we do not offer prayers with you, we do not marry with you, we do not attend your funeral, our Masjid Aqsa is separate, the minaret of our Masjid Aqsa is separate, if someone is not able to perform Hajj, then he is able to perform a small Hajj here. 2628 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept., 1974 Then his Hajj is accepted. If he performs a notional Hajj and then goes to Masjid Al-Aqsa, then his minor Hajj is accepted. Since he said this himself, Jazakallah. We pray that these thoughts are blessed for him, and may God bless us with our thoughts. But in the end, I will say that we should solve this issue properly. We should not give this issue any political color, nor should we try to gain any personal advantage from it. My belief is that any person who has used the issue of the finality of prophethood as a means of their political rise has been disgraced in this world by the grace of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ. And if anyone does so, I have firm faith and belief that they will still be disgraced. I will humbly request the honorable members to solve this issue in a very good and amicable manner so that the country is saved from chaos. If we call ourselves Muslims or we call ourselves followers of God Almighty, then I would like to submit to you that our Prophet ﷺ was not commanded by God that while preaching, if someone does not believe in his preaching, then God has not allowed him to be angry with them, nor has he been allowed to say anything that, God forbid, may show that any kind of coercion or tyranny has been used. Along with this, it is also our duty as Muslims to protect every person who lives in our beloved country at this time. Whether they are non-Muslim Parsi, Sikh, Christian, Mirzaee Qadiani, or Lahori, the protection of their life and property, honor and dignity, worship and places of worship, is obligatory upon all of us. It is our duty to protect them. I will humbly say that our left Two or three very learned men are sitting towards hand side, whose speech is probably taught in one or two sentences. I have had objections before. I have told them before too. I will not name them. I will say to them too that inflammatory speech is neither in the interest of the country, nor in the interest of religion, and neither does politics allow it, nor does religion allow it. Mr. Speaker, I am very grateful to you for giving me the opportunity. Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Before I give floor to Malik Jafar,..... (Interruptions) Mr. Chairman, first of all, I am very grateful to Maulana Abdul Hakeem Sahib, I thank him on behalf of the House, he has ordered that this book that he has just sent should be distributed, that is, not read, but distributed. The members will read it themselves. This may be distributed at once. Before I give ,floor to Malik Mohammad Jafar I would like to say something about two matters I want to talk to you about the security arrangements so that we can make some security arrangements in the future because it is not just my responsibility, it is our collective responsibility, so before I give the floor to Malik Jafar, I would like to state that in future security arrangements are our responsibility. We find so many unwanted people who come in the canteen and other areas of the Assembly premises. Some of them bring with them cameras. People are bringing their friends. These things must come to an end. I am going to totally stop such things. A Member: What about galleries? Mr. Chairman: Gallery cards are separate. The cards for entering the Assembly premises are different, because you never know what might happen. You know what is happening, so now it has become necessary. For this, I need your cooperation. I am grateful to you for the first two and a half months. This is not just a matter of your survival, it is also a question of the country's survival. In this, I remember that the cameramen were with us, so they came inside. People are bringing their friends, handbags, and things like that. I am going to totally stop them. I am going to stop unwanted people coming through gate Nos. 3 and 4. A Member: What about members? Mr. Chairman: We trust our honorable members. People are bringing their friends. Members can bring bedding or whatever they want; there is nothing to be upset about in this. All of this will happen with your cooperation. I want your cooperation. Mir Darya Khan Khoso: Will you make room for the drivers of the cars? Mr. Chairman: Of course, drivers will come. We have to come to certain decisions which are going to affect certain persons. When we open it, that is when this will happen. I want your cooperation. After the 7th of September, we are going to open it. We even have to fill these galleries. As for sitting in the cafeteria, we have to regulate it. Another thing that I wanted to mention is that there is an escort session in the evening. The Prime Minister of Sri Lanka is addressing the Joint Today's session. Before her arrival, I request that all the honorable members be seated in their seats by 5.55 p.m. I will first welcome the Prime Minister of Sri Lanka. It will not take more than an hour. The House Committee will continue tomorrow. That first letter of five fifteen was wrong. We have given the time of half-past five to the Kengri people. But the honorable members should be there by quarter to six. They have to come at 5.55, so the lords should come at least ten minutes earlier. We will finish before the Maghrib prayer. This session of the House Committee will continue tomorrow. The parliament session will last for an hour, we will sit for an hour and a half, however you deem fit. Professor Ghafoor Ahmed, is it at five o'clock tomorrow? Mr. Chairman, Mr. Pirzada is coming. Mr. Pirzada has come; and I met him in the morning. I think, I am sure much positive result will come and unanimous decision will be taken. And with these words, I am thankful to honorable members. I give the floor to Malik Jafar, and for five minutes I would speak with AG. Perhaps we will have to do two sessions tomorrow as well. I am leaving the House and the Deputy Speaker will take the chair. Khan Irshad Ahmed Khan, Mr. Chairman! I seek permission. Mr. Chairman: You will also get permission. Where have you been? Malik Muhammad Jafar: Mr. Chairman! It's just a matter of five minutes. I was very eager that the Attorney General Sahib be present and listen to my requests. Mr. Chairman, just five minutes. Give Irshad Ahmed Khan Sahib five minutes. Then we will come back within 5 minutes. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: Mr. Chairman! Mr. Chairman: You can't even read Mr. Chairman. Maulana Abdul Hakeem: I will not read the book, but let me say a few words. Mr. Chairman: No. On behalf of the House, does the House agree? Maulana Abdul Hakeem: The day before yesterday, you yourself said that you can speak if you want to. [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi)] Respected Acting Chairperson: Mr. Irshad Ahmed Khan! Mr. Irshad Ahmed Khan: Mr. Chairman! I would like to submit that this religious matter is before the House. There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, meaning those people and sects who believe in the Holy Prophet are not ready to accept any other prophet. The Qadiani sect is such a sect who have created their own new prophet. Therefore, we are absolutely not ready to accept this prophet. We accept our Prophet as the last prophet. No prophet can come after him. We are Muslims, and whoever does not accept our Holy Prophet is not one of us. They will remain in the minority. Just like other sects, Harijan, Christians, and other sects are, in the same way, Qadianis can also live, and they can be protected. But they are not one of us because they say that whoever does not believe in Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet is not a Muslim. Therefore, we also do not consider him a Muslim, and we do not recognize their prophet as a prophet. Our is not he for whom Allah Almighty has said that there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. We this. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2633 are followers of the Prophet. That Prophet is our savior. We are his Ummah. No prophet can come after this. We are not ready to accept anyone else. I will also request the public to vote to declare these people a minority. With these words, I end my speech. Madam Acting Chairman: Malik Muhammad Suleman! Malik Muhammad Suleman: Mr. Chairman! As far as this issue is concerned, it is a 90-year-old issue. After the War of Independence of 1857, when the British saw that despite all kinds of excommunication, when the slogan of Takbir is raised, all Muslims come together. This is the spirit of Jihad that brings them together. Therefore, the British made a plan to somehow remove the spirit of Jihad from the hearts and minds of Muslims. Therefore, they chose the fertile land of Gurdaspur. From there, they tried to get a melancholic clerk and petitioner from Sialkot to be recognized as Muhaddith, Mujaddid, Messiah, and finally a Prophet. This was their plan. They wanted to remove the spirit of Jihad from the hearts and minds of Muslims. This was not a one-sided effort by the British. Efforts were made to end the power of Jihad of the Muslims so that the British could permanently occupy this country. Therefore, they created a new prophethood and a new Ummah. The belief of the new Ummah was that they would consider the British as their ruler. Sir! Since time is short, I will briefly submit. As far as the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is concerned, when he claimed his prophethood, he said many things. He is also a prophet, a reformer, the promised Messiah, he also called himself Muhaddith, God, Mary, son of Mary, Jesus and Moses, God and Muhammad, God knows what he did not say. In his truth, he said that my marriage to Muhammadi Begum, an innocent girl, took place on the highest throne. 2634 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept., 1974 was. But this desire of his could not be fulfilled till his death. Similarly, this prophet, who was the prophet of the English, who was an English prophet, when Constantinople and Baghdad were captured, he had lights lit here in Qadian. This was the way the English wanted to keep control of India. Besides this, the English performed other feats in India as well. So, when the time for the partition of the country came, the English used many tactics at that time as well. Some of our Maulvis, who call themselves claimants of Islam, were bought. And when the question of the partition of Pakistan arose, which was a great Jihad in which the Muslims of the subcontinent made sacrifices. They waged Jihad because they have a separate society and want a country to live their lives according to Islam and the Quran. At that time, those who denied this Jihad also supported the English. Even today, some of them are sitting in front of us. They continued to support the prophet of the English at that time. But alas, when Pakistan was formed, these people also had to come to Pakistan. And in other regions of Gurdaspur, such as Tehsil Pathankot, the British did a lot. There was also a soft-spoken jihad and jihad by pen, not jihad by sword. The series of non-violence and following Gandhi continued. All these things have been described in detail, now we have to see what we have to do in this matter. Mr. Speaker! Our friends have used the word "Ahmadi" for Mirzais i.e. Qadianis. Mufti Mahmood Sahib has also repeatedly called them Ahmadis. We strongly object to this. They are not Ahmadis. This means that we Ahmad Hatred is taught about Mustafa. I have repeatedly objected that this is not Ahmad's issue, it is a Qadiani issue, because Mirza Sahib has said that we will go to Qadian again after dominance. So this means that they are not true Pakistanis. Their . Their purpose is the same as Israel's purpose. The Israelis used to do the same. And they want to create a new country again. As far as their population is concerned, according to their speculation, they say that the population in Pakistan is forty lakhs. And outside Pakistan, the population is close to one crore. If their figures are accepted as correct, then it means that a time is coming when they will get a piece of land where they can establish their government. And just as Israel has started a movement to run the Zionist system, in the same way, they call themselves a new sect, a new community, and a new religion, so let them start. So for this we have to see whether the Holy Quran allows us to accept any new religion after Islam. We do not accept it as a religion at all. Neither are we allowed to accept it as a new religion, it is not a religion. If their entire organization is looked at, then the organization itself is dangerous. Religion is their expression. There is no religion. So the organization is like the organization of the Zionists. So this organization is dangerous. Therefore, before the creation of Pakistan, the British gave them extremely high positions in various departments and even today in this Pakistan government, all the finance departments, Agricultural Development Bank and all other finance departments and our foreign office and army all belong to them. are full of the majority and they are so biased that they do not let anyone stray, They only keep their own people wherever there is an opening. So that's why where it is being said that accept this religion, isn't it the same as telling the Arabs to accept Israel? should accept. So we should be careful and we should not accept their religion in any way should do. It is a political party that deceives people in the name of Islam. This Tehrik-e-Jadeed is one of their books. In it they say that we are a separate are a group. This is their belief, they write: "You may ask why then we have organised ourselves into a separate Jamaat". A Tabshir publication under the guidance of Movement Jadeed .Mirza Mubarak Ahmad. It has nothing to do with Islam that they Oath of Allegiance has been published on page 79 in it, you should read it. There is also manipulation in this. is. Mirza Sahib's name is not mentioned anywhere in it, nor is anyone else's. In this There are ten conditions, the tenth is: "Tenthly, that he will establish a brother-hood with me, i.e. the promised massiah, on the condition of obeying me in everything good and keep it up to the day of his death and this relationship will be of such a high order that its example will not be found in any worldly relationship either of blood relations or of servant and master." So this is the deception they give to the outside world as well. They do not tell anyone any name, Only mislead people in the name of Islam. So sir! This is the thing that They are deceiving the world in the name of Islam. And as it is said that the constitution QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2637 To include them as a minority sect, I believe that would be extreme injustice to Islam and to Pakistan, because if you read the constitution, the meaning of minority is in Article 106 sub-clause (3): "In addition to the seats in the Provincial Assemblies for the Provinces of Balochistan, the Punjab, the North-West Frontier and Sindh specified in clause (1), there shall be in those Assemblies the number of additional seats hereinafter specified reserved for persons belonging to the Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Budhist and Parsi communities or the scheduled castes:- Balochistan 1 The North-West Frontier Province 1 The Punjab 3 Sindh 2" So minorities have been given representation in the assemblies, the number is such that minority rights are protected. Article 36 states: "The State shall safeguard the legitimate rights and interests of minorities, including their due representation in the Federal and Provincial services." [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman.] 2038 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept. 1974 Malik Muhammad Suleman: After this, Article 20 states that: "Subject to law, public order and morality:- (a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and (b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions." Now, under this article, where every citizen has the right to adopt, profess, practice, and propagate their religion, if you recognize them as a religion, then they have capital, they have wealth, they will build a big mosque in front of every big mosque of yours and there they will propagate that this is our prophet and those who do not believe are all infidels, because they believe that all Muslims are infidels, not only the Muslims of Pakistan but all 750 million Muslims of the Islamic world are infidels. So, it means that if you recognize them as a religion and give them a separate entity or any other name, then you will give them constitutional protection, which will enable them to preach their religion. But this is Article 2, it says: "Islam shall be the state religion of Pakistan." So, Islam is the state region of our Pakistan. So how can you allow anti-Islamic propaganda or preaching in it. Now after this there is Article 5 of the Constitution, it says: QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2639 (1) Loyalty to the State is the basic duty of every citizen. (2) Obedience to the Constitution and law is the basic obligation of every citizen wherever he may be and of every other person for the time being within Pakistan." So, it is the duty of every Pakistani citizen to be loyal to the State. The definition of the State is in Article 7 of the Constitution, which includes the Federal Government, Provincial Government, Assemblies, etc. So, can I ask that if a Qadiani is ordered by a member of the Government, i.e., the State, who holds the highest office, and on the other hand, their own head gives them an order, whose order do they obey? Certainly, according to clause 10 of the allegiance oath, they obey their head. So, this means they violate the Constitution. Therefore, they should be declared an anti-constitutional group. And for violating the Constitution, you have kept a clause number 6 that he commits high treason, and when he commits high treason under Article 6, you have decided that the punishment for it will be death. So, sir, this issue is... Mr. Chairman: Just to interrupt the honorable speaker, another information I would like to give to the honorable members... One minute, Mr. Malik! Those honorable members who had requested passes for the joint session until this evening can collect them from the Assistant Secretary at 1:30 PM. 'It is a privilege which should go to the M.N.As close relatives and family members. My gallery will be occupied by the entourage. We are having 45 diplomatic cards; then there is the... 2040 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept., 1974 Press. This part of DVG is reserved for MNAs' family members and their close relatives; and if we issue one card for one, that means about 200 cards; but we have got only 78 seats, So for that, the rest will have to sit a little behind. For example, if we have forty requisitions come in, then whatever seats we have left, it could be two, it could be three. But. The first preference will be one card per honorable member. I will go and tick mark on the cards. Between 12:00 and the cards can be collected, 1:00. Whether you take it from me, take it from my office, I will seat the Assistant Secretary there. You can take the card from there if you want. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: Mr. Speaker! There is a suggestion that these speeches of our Members have taken place on this issue, if you would be kind enough to give us copies of them, so that Mr. Chairman: You will get all of these. Mr. Abdul Hameed Jatoi: It would be better to carry them in your pocket when needed. Mr. Chairman: No, no. And these will come in the newspapers. We have to publish this record. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Mr. Speaker! It is requested, is there no restriction in the committee? Mr. Chairman: Wherever you want in the committee. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari: Then it's okay. I had the cards made and ordered yesterday, so will I have to return them again? Mr. Chairman: You did wrong. Maulana Abdul Mustafa Al-Azhari, why? Mr. Chairman: Because there should be one rule for everyone. I asked, He said two or three gentlemen have taken cards from me. Okay, that's valid. If they all do it collectively. Yes, Malik Muhammad Suleman! How much time will you take? Malik Muhammad Suleman: As much time as you say. Mr. Chairman: As much time as you deem appropriate. Malik Muhammad Suleman: Just a little. So, where every citizen has the right under Article 20 to profess and propagate their religion, there is Article 19 which states that: "Every citizen shall have the right of freedom of speech and expression and there shall be freedom of the press subject to any reasonable restrictions imposed by law in the interest of the glory of Islam." So, where this freedom of speech and expression is given, there, when anything is said against the glory of Islam, there is the power to impose a ban on it. So, sir! When after Khatam-un-Nabiyeen (the seal of the prophets) someone claims that he is not, and he propagates that literature, professes that religion, then banning it is within our jurisdiction, we can impose it. This constitutional right is available to the people of this country, and these people who make this claim should be banned. So, in the future, I believe that as much literature as exists up until now, since it is against the glory of Islam, it is against the spirit of Islam, it can be confiscated and should be confiscated. And in the future, no such literature can be published in Pakistan because our religion (of the state) is Islam, so in this way we can confiscate all such literature of theirs and the property they have acquired and is in Pakistan and they are in Pakistan exploit the name of Islam to create it, have obtained it in the name of Islam. When every mosque's property has gone to Waqf, why can't this go? Why can't this go to the Department of Endowments? May go. So all the property should be transferred to the Department of Endowments. As far as allegiance is concerned is concerned, allegiance cannot be done. This is against Shuru and the Constitution. So this allegiance should be revoked given. And no person in this country should have the right to such allegiance that anyone lure people in the name of a fictitious Messiah and obtain allegiance because in it The form of allegiance that has been presented to us is fictitious. There is nothing in it. That is a lie, a fraud. So, Mr. Speaker! Now there are such things about which I want to express. That That the Rezza incident happened on May 29, 1974. According to my information, most Wealthy Qadianis cashed their large properties before the 29th. I, through you I want to ask my government to what extent this is true is. It should be investigated and its report should be brought before this esteemed House go. Mr. Chairman: There is no government in this committee, ask in the National Assembly. Malik Muhammad Suleiman: So after that, the second thing is that my information is also and It has been brought to my attention that how many soldiers were killed in the 1971 war became P.O.W. SZAVAZINE ISSUE-VENÝRAL VIALUSSIVIN It should be told how many Qadiani P.O.W.s there were. Because it has been brought to our attention. It may be true or false, I want it corrected that no Qadiani P.O.W. has been. So this secret should also be revealed so that what has happened to us or what they will do in the future, if they make plans, then we should know what is happening. So, sir. Mr. Chairman: That's it. Malik Muhammad Suleman: No, sir. Mr. Chairman: There is little time today. Malik Muhammad Suleman: This is our Schedule No. 3 of the Constitution in which we have clarified. it is given that big posts like President and Prime Minister will be in the share of Muslims. There should be some addition to this. All the Federal Ministers who are there, State Ministers should also have the same oath as the Prime Minister and the President. This requires no oath of the provincial ministers. The minority will get representation in the province. will get, so there is no need for it. Speaker of the National Assembly and the Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly.... Mr. Chairman: ...... and all the members of the National Assembly. Malik Muhammad Suleman: Sir, there is no need for members, but the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker should have the same oath as prescribed for a Muslim. In this Governor, these four All the Governors of the provinces, I am not talking about the Provincial Ministers in the Chief Minister, I will only talk about the Chief Ministers, the Governor, the Chief Minister, the Chief Justices of NA HUNAL ASSEMBLE VICARIO LAIN Sept. 1974 Supreme Court and the High Courts. I am not talking of the other Justices. The Chief Election Commissioner should take the same oath as a Muslim takes. The Chief of the Armed Forces (cheers from the opposition) which will include the Army, Air Force, and Navy Chiefs of Staff. They should take the same oath as a Muslim takes. So, with these submissions, I appeal to the entire House through you to consider these submissions with a cool head and make the right decision. (Cheers from the opposition) (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: (To Malik Mohammad Jafar): How long will you take? Malik Mohammad Jafar: A little bit. Mr. Chairman: Approximately how much? Malik Mohammad Jafar: No, I will not say anything unnecessary. Mr. Chairman: When did I say that? Malik Mohammad Jafar: I submit, I cannot say, but it may take me ten minutes. I don't think it will take more than half an hour. Mr. Speaker! At this time, when today is the fifth, and on the seventh of this month, we have a commitment to the public that this issue will be resolved by this date, I respectfully submit to my esteemed members that I am very aware, but the way the honorable member was speaking, we Listening to him, it seems that many do not realize the anxiety and restlessness with which the public outside this House is awaiting your decision, and you have reached a stage where you have to decide in a day or two. In this situation, this method should at least not be used, as it is such a serious issue, and I believe that in many aspects, it is perhaps even more serious than the constitution. We have a very important issue before us because the constitution could be amended, but at this time, in my opinion, the most important issue in Pakistan is the one you have to decide, and which you have to decide within two days. Keeping this responsibility in mind, I would like to request that you seriously consider the resolutions before you. Consider the information, evidence presented in the cross-examination, that we have obtained, and consider the issues related to this problem and those that may arise from it. I will make a few submissions with the hope that it may help in making a decision. Many scholars much greater than me know more about this religious issue. But there are also political and legal aspects to it. Therefore, I want to say something. First, as an introduction, I would like to submit that when the discussion was going on here, statements were being made, cross-examination was being done, there was a lot of propaganda going on among us members and outside as well, and there are different methods of propaganda. I have been meeting with my friends and lawyers in Lahore. I want to say something about that. I am sure that propaganda of this kind is harming the constitution and Pakistan. Many letters have come from outside regarding this, in which these things are written. First, a question was raised, and it was mentioned in the statement as well. Secondly, there is also propaganda happening. Regarding a religious issue in the parliament of a country, it was initially said that legally, we are not authorized to make a decision. The Attorney General's question clearly indicated that we can make the law. The article we rely on states that establishing religious institutions for the propagation of freedom of religion and purity is subject to the law. Parliament can make the law. This is a limited legal aspect. But what is being emphasized is this: Morally and in the presence of accepted moral values in the civilized world, does a national assembly that has been elected to run the country and make all the laws have the moral right to decide on religious matters? Along with this, great emphasis is also being placed on not doing so. You should not make a decision that would disgrace you in the civilized world. And what will other nations say, what will people say? How recreational are these Pakistani people, and how centuries-old are their ways of thinking? What are they doing? They are deciding on people's religion. In my opinion, the purpose of this kind of propaganda is to persuade the members to refrain from deciding this matter. Or if they do make a decision, it should be one that does not satisfy our people but perhaps satisfies the people of the outside world. Therefore, we should not be afraid. In my opinion, this propaganda has absolutely no value because every country has its own circumstances. We have our own history. There are many factors in it. Therefore, we have to do many such things. Our constitution and law are correct, but the people of Western countries may not understand it. If this is the case... Until now, the people and thinkers of Western countries have not understood how the foundation of a country can be religion, but should we abandon the fact that the foundation of our country, the foundation of our state, is religion because of their stance or to prove to them that we are civilized to please them? We have written that in our constitution. And then, whether we can decide this or not. We have already done this. We have established a principle in the constitution regarding at least two positions. Among them, one is important from at least one aspect, and the other is very important from another aspect. As for the President, we have decided that he is a symbol of the state because it is an Islamic state, so the President should be a Muslim. And the office of the Prime Minister, in my opinion, is such a powerful position, there isn't one in Pakistan, and the Prime Minister's office is much more powerful than in the democracies of other countries. And they have been given so much power. Therefore, he should also be a Muslim. [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi).] Malik Muhammad Jafar: So, Mr. Chairman, I was submitting that we have decided in the constitution regarding two positions that it is necessary to be a Muslim for them, considering their importance. But now the question arises, what was the reason we did not consider it sufficient in the constitution that the President and Prime Minister must be Muslims? Muslim is a well-known word. Everyone knows it, but at the time of constitution-making, we felt the need to define a special constituency for them, considering the circumstances of Pakistan, and clearly bring the concept of the finality of prophethood into it, and belief in the finality of prophethood. But even that was not considered sufficient. To further clarify, the following words have also been included: that the person should take an oath that they believe in the Finality of Prophethood, and that no prophet will come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). And now we should go to France and England to explain why they have kept Muslims, why they have brought up the Finality of Prophethood, that no prophet will come after him. Because unfortunately, the claimant of prophethood was born in a part of our Pakistan. His group is present here. It is neither in France nor in England, nor are these their problems. So, my point was that while making a decision, we should not be afraid of this at all. Our decisions respect foreign public opinion, that is necessary, but they cannot understand this issue. These are not their problems. It is our own problem. We should not be afraid of this at all. That is the first thing. The second request is that another propaganda is that if I clarify here against the Ahmadis, I will call them "Ahmadi." Here, an objection was raised that Mufti Sahib used the word "Ahmadi." Whatever the name of any group or person, it is not necessary that we understand their status. For example, the Jews are not true Jews. Christians are not on the teachings of Jesus. Since they call themselves "Ahmadi," I will call them "Ahmadi." A danger is being presented that if we take any action against the Ahmadiyya community, against one sect or against both, then they are very powerful. First, there will be sabotage in the country because they are organized, they have money, they have a large organization, and they are second to none in fanaticism within the country. There are dangers within the country, there is sabotage. Now they will think that we have no place in this country, they have declared us non-Muslims. And then in foreign countries... ASADIMON ISSUE-MENDRAL DISK, USSION 2049 Where their groups are, there will be a dangerous reaction against us. I submitted that we do not need to be afraid of the first movement. But this The second thing that is being stated is, in my opinion, something that should be kept in mind. should. But in the same context, when I mention my resolution, I will request that I have stated the basic point in my resolution, which has now been mentioned here. A member has also mentioned that you should try to eliminate their organization. All the dangers are based on the fact that it is an organized group and against it. are against it and they are bound by its orders, they act on its instructions. About it It needs to be considered how they are running. That leadership is on its property. So in this regard, I would like to submit that if you approve my proposal, or with some With change, then this second apprehension that is being expressed, I will not say that it It is finished, but it will be reduced at least. Yes sir! I submitted this as an introduction. I I have requested that you consider these matters very seriously and secondly, that Do not be affected by propaganda at all because if we are the decision-makers, then what is the outside? What will be the effect on the world? They will consider us civilized or not. As I mentioned, two They do not consider us civilized because we created the country on the basis of religion. Take these Take things out of your mind. Now I want to say something about the resolutions. It seems that on this matter So now there is a consensus that after Muhammad Rasulullah, the person who believes in any prophecy Whoever believes in someone as a prophet is not a Muslim. And as I mentioned this is now There was no consensus, rather it was already in the constitution, because in the constitution we have only said that it is necessary for two positions to be Muslim, and for both these positions, the oath that has been proposed clarifies this. He takes an oath and says that he believes that no prophet will come after Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. So, if not directly, then indirectly, we have already defined a Muslim in the constitution. Now, it is only that the decision that we have made in the constitution should be further clarified, while it is still related to those two positions, it should be given a general form that wherever the word "Muslim" is used, and in the constitution, it is not necessary for any position, but in other general laws, for example, the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, the general law of inheritance, and if jurisprudence is to be expanded, then the law of pre-emption will also come in it, all these will come, because in Islamic law, a distinction has been made between the rights of Muslims and non-Muslims. Special rules are prescribed in their mutual disputes. When they are to be enforced, it should first be decided whether a person is a Muslim or not. Now, why should a person who claims to be a Muslim not be considered a Muslim? Apparently, this thing appeals to some of our educated people that it is right! The submission in this is that we have no such definition that if a person says that I am a Muslim, then we should stop him from saying that he cannot say that I am a Muslim. But the question is that a person, for example, Zaid, says that I am a Muslim. He has a dispute with Bakr, for example, a dispute over inheritance. Bakr denies it. Zaid's claim is wrong. He believes in a prophet after Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, therefore he is not a Muslim. Now, this is not Zaid's personal matter alone, it is QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2651 There is the matter of dispute with another, the matter of inheritance, the matter of pre-emption, and the matter relates to laws. In this, then, the decision of that person is not final. Generally, the matter used to go to the courts. But instead of taking it to the courts, we want to clarify this in the law. The courts interpret the law. Therefore, in the resolution, one proposal, which I will read out, is that the principle that has been decided in the Constitution should be clarified and expanded, in terms of its application, and it should override all laws, wherever the word "Muslim" is now, or in the future the laws that we will make, because we have decided to extend the effect of jurisprudence, to cover as many matters as possible. Obviously, in most laws, that condition of Muslim will come. So, everywhere it should be understood that the person who does not believe in the finality of Prophethood is not a Muslim. But here, sir! Now another matter has arisen. Then it has become complicated. That is, we said oath, and the proposal now is that according to the oath itself, a general definition should be made. But in the oath, it is written that the person who believes in the finality of Prophethood and that no prophet can come after Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. So, here, on the one hand, you have witnesses have come, statements have come. From this, it emerged that at least the Lahore group claims that we do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet, but rather Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not claim prophethood at all, but to the extent that he said that whoever claims prophethood is accursed. So, according to this oath, the Lahore group is not considered outside the pale of Islam, they will be considered Muslims, because they say that we do not believe in a prophet. And the matter of Rabwah people is also now in a complicated situation. Because if the words are that the finality of Prophethood 2652 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept., 1974 I have faith in it and that no prophet will come after Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Now, with mental reservation, which exists, it is possible that the Ahmadi of Rabwah might also take an oath, or if the matter goes to court, he might say, "Sir! It is written here that no prophet can come," so from that, what is meant by the references presented is that the prophet always means a new prophet, a prophet with a new law, one who is an independent prophet. So the matter still remains open to interpretation. So I have seen that although this was not in my own resolution, but from what has been stated here and the cross-examination that has taken place, I have gotten the impression that perhaps what has come in the resolution from some members of the opposition is that it should be clearly stated about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that his followers are not Muslims. Anyway, it seems strange to write the name of a person. But then what to do? Our problem is such that a person made a claim here, made some claim, and the situation arose that even after fifty or sixty years after that claim, his followers have not been able to decide what his claim was. Rather, in this regard, Allama Iqbal's reaction would be very appropriate. He had said for the first time, it has also been stated here, that he had praised Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. That's right. He had said it in 1911. Later, he became a fierce opponent and demanded that they be declared a non-Muslim minority. A debate of his started with Pandit Nehru. He wrote two or three articles. Then someone asked why you had praised him so much before and now you have become his opponent. Anyway, he has given a very detailed answer. But to clarify his position in this regard, he had given this answer that, look, brother, I am human. I am I can change my opinion, and I did not have complete knowledge at that time about the consequences of this movement and the claims of its founder. Then he said, "Look! I am an outsider." So how could I have known, when even their own followers are still arguing today about whether he made the claim? But now a lot of material has come before us, and based on this material, we can say, that is, we are capable of deciding that, no matter what the Lahore group and the Rabwah group keep claiming, it is clear that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad definitely claimed prophethood. And now, whatever interpretation is given to it, whether prophethood is with any interpretation, whether in any form, whether it is shadow-like (Zilli), reflectional (Buruzi), non-permanent, or non-legislative, in whatever way, it is contrary to the belief of the finality of prophethood. And we are representatives of the public. The people of Pakistan do not make any distinction in this matter. They are not ready to think that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a Muhaddith (narrator of Hadith), and if he is a Muhaddith, then it is permissible, or he was a Mujaddid (reformer), because all the material has come before you. The main thing is, I have done some study as well, it is true, he kept denying prophethood, and then he kept claiming it too. He had two goals in mind, and they were contradictory to each other. On one hand, he wanted to establish his own group on a permanent basis, and the mission that Mirza Mahmud Ahmad took forward a lot, to establish a separate group, in which the relationship of his followers with him would be like that of the followers of a prophet with their prophet. On one hand, he wanted this. That is why he used the word "prophet" for himself, again and again. But then, at the same time, opposition increased among the public. All the scholars became against him. He could not go anywhere, could not travel. So then he was afraid of the people. They said that wherever this word appears, consider it to mean "Muhaddith." Not that you should cut it out and change it, consider it to be cut out. Meaning, it remains in the book, "Nabi" remains, but understand it to mean "Muhaddith." But after that, he claimed to be a prophet again, he wrote about himself as a prophet. So there were two purposes. And it is strange, due to the lack of knowledge of Muslims, that they succeeded to some extent in both of these goals. And in this regard, a very interesting thing, in my opinion, was said by Mian Abdul Mannan Sahib, that it did not seem wrong to some people, and it did to others. So to reassure both, those who had misunderstandings were told to understand that he is not a prophet, and those who did not misunderstand could continue to consider him a prophet. But I say that this is a debate between them. I believe that we have so much material and the matter has become so clear that I believe that if the common Muslims of Pakistan do not differentiate between the Lahore group and the Rabwah group, then based on the material that has been presented to us, I believe that the common Muslims of Pakistan are correct. But now, how can we say that it is related to the Lahore group? So there could be several ways. I believe that where this thing is coming in these resolutions, that I do not believe in any prophet, then the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib can also be written. Now the matter becomes very serious because if someone claims to be a Wali Allah or a Pir, it is fine, some people accept him, some do not. But the one who claims prophethood, it is a very shameful, serious matter. In this regard, sir! I will mention one more thing. It was in my mind to say in the beginning, but then I forgot, that there is also propaganda that if this... If you start making decisions on religious matters in this way, you will open many doors to conflict. For example, it is being said that if this action is taken against the Ahmadis, then, for example, the Shia, who are in the minority here, it will be against them, it will be against the Ahl-e-Hadith, there are some Ahl-e-Quran here, and especially from the Ahmadiyya community, the Ismaili sect, they have emphasized this point. They presented very heartbreaking references, it really hurt me that they presented references that so-and-so Shia scholar has written this about Sunnis, Sunnis have written this about Shias, Ahl-e-Hadith have written this about others. There was no need to present that here because people from different schools of thought are present here, but their point was that firstly, these differences already exist, so we also have a difference. And secondly, they wanted to create another fear in the country that if this action is taken against the Ahmadis once, then no one should consider themselves safe. Then it will be against every other sect. So, in this regard, sir! I would like to submit that this is also wrong. After all, see why they say there are 72 sects. I don't know if there are 72. Maybe there are fewer or more. But this form of disagreement that Muslims have in Pakistan regarding the Ahmadiyya community is such that they cannot co-exist politically and religiously, why hasn't it arisen between other people, why hasn't it arisen between Shias and Sunnis despite such a big difference. And here, sir! I would like to submit that if the apparent thing is looked at, then now, sir! There are Ahmadis. They adopt the "khafi fiqh" (silent jurisprudence). They have declared that they follow Hanafi fiqh. They offer prayers silently. They agree with the fast in the same way, with Zakat in the same way, some even perform Hajj, okay. So, in the many differences of the Shia, there is a difference in the method of prayer. In fact, I have experienced that there is some difference in the timing of fasting as well, they break their fast later, etc., etc. There are many disagreements regarding the caliphate. So, what is the reason for this? Sir! The reason for this is that the disagreement regarding the finality of prophethood has a fundamental status throughout the 1400 years, and there is no comparison between it and other disagreements, because the Prophet and Prophethood are religious terms, not a lexical meaning as was said here, sir! That Maulana Rumi said that its lexical meaning is this. That is not it. This is a technical, terminological thing in religious terminology, and the People of the Book, wherever prophethood is mentioned, prophethood has always meant that when a person makes a claim of revelation, but it is not just a claim of revelation alone, on the basis of that claim of revelation, a separate group of followers is established. This has always been called the Prophet's Ummah (nation). And all the other differences are of a different nature. That's why I say, sir! that there should be no fear at all. There should also be no fear that this will open the door to a sedition. The issue of prophethood is different, and those differences are completely separate. I believe that the society of Pakistan is a very liberal society. Muslims are very liberal. They have seen all these differences. In 1400 years, which sect has not emerged? Now I do not go into their differences. But there have been such severe differences and sects have emerged, but nowhere in any society has there been a movement to declare so-and-so as non-Muslims. Why should they be declared non-Muslims? It is the matter of prophethood. If QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2657 If Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib had not claimed prophethood and remained a religious leader, and if many differences had arisen, even in prayers and fasting, in everything, then this situation would not have occurred. For example, sir! I will submit that this is not a reactionary matter. Look at the example of Christians. Christians also have a belief that Jesus will come again. This is common between Muslims and Christians, that he will come again. Suppose there are other differences among Christians as well. There are many sects. You know the major ones, Roman Catholic and Protestant. And there are many others. But no one says about another sect that they are not Christians. But suppose a person arises, is born among Christians, and the Christian belief is that Jesus will come again, he says that I have come, I am that Jesus. And one person among Christians accepts him. And I am sure, sir! That despite being very liberal, all the Christians in the world will unite on the point that those who believe in him, in Jesus, are not Christians. And it is obvious that those who believe in him, who believe in the second coming of Jesus and understand that he is the same Jesus, will not consider other Christians to be Christians. That is, what has been said here, sir! That Ahmadis consider us infidels, then I think it is absolutely a matter of justice, a matter of reason, that if a prophet has really come, the Messiah has come, the Mahdi has appeared, and he is in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, then those who believe in him can be Muslims, how can others be Muslims. A prophet has come, his advent was foretold, the Quran and Hadith confirm it, the Muslims 2658 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept., 1974 There is consensus, and then those who do not believe in the Prophet are obviously not Muslims, so this difference that I have submitted is that the difference is unique and cannot be compared to other differences. Therefore, we should not think that, sir! If we decide this, decide on the Ahmadis, it will also be about the rest of the sects. I am sure no demand will arise in Pakistan against any sect. So now, sir! I would like to say a few words. One, this is the first resolution, a resolution, sir! Which is signed by 37 members. So in the preamble, all the things about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are correct... "whereas this is established" "Now this Assembly do proceed to" But the suggestion at the end is specific: "that the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad by whatever name they are called are not Muslims and that an official Bill be moved in the National Assembly to make necessary amendment." So the point is, sir! that they want clarification on this. That is, one clarification is in principle, in fact, I was talking to a friend today, and he was saying why take names in it. And more prophets will be born. I said don't worry about that. A member himself was saying. I said that in fourteen hundred years so many have been born, claimants of prophethood. We have only heard one of their names. And one mentioned Musaylimah al-Kadhdhāb, they said. So I said that there is no danger. In my opinion, in any case, keeping in view the consequences of the history of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, no one will claim prophethood. Anyway, this is a matter of drafting. The matter is separate. In what should it be done? Whether it comes in the constitution, or in some law, those are other matters. Those are technical things. But I understand that, in principle, to solve this issue, we need to clarify this in some form and not leave the matter incomplete. And that can be clearly done through a clarification by law that, in any case, whoever believes in another prophet other than the Prophet is not a Muslim. But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, in any case, claimed prophethood. So, considering his claim to be wrong, or wrongly interpreting it, knowingly or unknowingly, anyone who believes in him in any position is also not a Muslim. After that, sir! This was one of Sardar Shaukat Hayat Sahib's. In it, it is said that an interpretation should be included in the constitution: "Any person or sect that does not subscribe to and believe in the Unity and Oneness of Almighty, the Books of Allah, the Holy Quran being the last of them, Prophethood of Mohammad (peace be upon Him) as the last of the Prophets and that there can be no Prophet after him, the Day of Judgement, and the requirements and teachings of the Holy Quran and Sunnah, shall be considered to fall outside the pale of Islam and shall be considered to be a member of a minority community." So, (they are) outside the circle of Islam. Regarding this, I will say the same thing, that in principle, the matter is the same as what came in the oath. But then the dispute remains in it. One, I mentioned the Lahore group. They, in any case, do not fall into this, nor do the Rabwah people. Then there will be litigation in it, and they will go to the High Court and the Supreme Court that, sir! This definition that has been made, we also believe in it. How do they believe? And those answers to the Attorney General's questions that came in nine (9) days, I don't know for two months... The writ petition will continue to be argued in the High Court. All the books, from "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya" to "Anjam Atham," will then be read there in the courts. When we understand that everything is before us, what is there to fear? Look, now that the matter has come to light and it has become clear that he claimed prophethood, now those who believe in him are okay, they are not Muslims, even if they consider him a reformer. This is only in regards to Sardar Shaukat Hayat Sahib, I only submit that it does not only contain what he fears will cause a dispute later. I have already submitted that. After that, sir! I will take a little time because I have to mention a few things that are in my resolution. In it, the first thing is, sir! Amendment of the Constitution, in it I have written Amendment of the Constitution. This is Article number 2, sir! State Religion: "After Article 2, the following explanation should be added: "Explanation: 'Islam' in this Article and wherever this word is used in the Constitution means the religion which comprises the following essential ingredients and articles of belief, namely, Unity and Oneness of Almighty Allah, the Books of Allah, Holy Quran being the last of them, the Prophethood of Mohammad (peace be upon him) as the last of the Prophets, and that there can be no Prophet after him, the Day of Judgement, and the requirements and teachings of the Holy Quran and Sunnah." This is the second part of it: "Definition of the word 'Muslim' should be included in Article 260. This definition should be in terms contained in the relevant part of the oath of office in respect of the President and the Prime Minister." QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2661 Article number is 260, it contains general definitions. I have written it in this. But I request that I have been thinking about it. It does not have the mention that I have already made. But this whole proceeding has been happening. We had to benefit from it too. So now I understand that this is insufficient and that thing does not necessarily come in it, so it should come in some other law in some other form, necessarily. If it doesn't come in this, it should come in some other law in some other form so that the matter is clarified, which I have proposed. It does not clarify this way. Similarly, the second thing is the Amendment of the General Clauses Act, so it also states that regarding the words "Islam" and "Muslim" it should be written in the General Clauses Act that: in the General Clauses Act, wherever these words are used, they should have the meaning as written in this Article of the Constitution. The word "Muslim" has also appeared. At the moment, this thing is not in my mind. I think in the Muslim Waqf Validating Act. Anyway, there are words like this. Now I come to what I believe has fundamental status and I think that if you approve that proposal, then perhaps many other proposals will become unnecessary. Anyway, their importance will be greatly reduced. And that is, I will read it out, that is the third proposal: "The property and assets of these organizations, that is, the Rabwa and the Lahori group the two sects should be taken over by the Auqaf Department. If it is necessary for this purpose, the enactment dealing with this subject can be amended or new legislative measure can be taken. It is further proposed that this trust should be managed by a serving or a retired Judge of the Supreme Court, who should be assisted by the Advisory Committee in which both the groups of the 2662 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept., 1974 Ahmedia community should be given representation." So, sir! The thing is, I submit that if their position is accepted, what do the Ahmadis say their purpose is? They say the purpose is to preach Islam. Now, this is our Islamic state. That is, even if their position is accepted, it is an Islamic state, and the state can also take the responsibility of preaching into its own hands. The state has taken many religious affairs into its control. It is a very large institution. Many large endowments which are properties. The government has taken them into its custody. So why has this been done? And very few of these objectives have been achieved in comparison. A very big goal that is currently in sight is that, well, its management has improved a lot compared to before. But here, based on these trusts, there is an organization that the people of Pakistan believe belongs to certain individuals, and there is evidence to support this, that it is a dangerous organization. No one is being forced to convert here. It is not being said that no one can be an Ahmadi or call themselves an Ahmadi, or believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as they wish, but we are talking about an organization, and that organization has assets, it has property. Its leadership is established. And sir, I would like to submit that you should always keep this in mind, the matter of the common Ahmadi, and what is called the family of prophethood, and its leadership is another matter. They are exploiting what is called the common Ahmadi, the public, by misleading them and trapping them in the clutches of their organization, and most of the money is being spent on themselves. But obviously, they have to spend it on external missions so that they can present reports etc. to the people and collect donations. So the suggestion is in it. There is no injustice to anyone in this, because it has also become about the times. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2663 We have already acted upon it. Muslim endowments as well as non-Muslim ones. And hypothetically, if a law does not exist, then a law can be created. A specific law can be created for it. Laws are made for individual canals and for this purpose. In England, such laws have been made for specific institutions. And here, a great interest of the country is associated with it. But I submit, if you do this, then you have many other concerns that the loyalty of high-ranking employees is compromised. Why is it compromised? It is compromised because that high-ranking officer has loyalty to the state on one hand, and loyalty to the position entrusted to him. These are his duties. And on the other hand, he has such devotion and connection to the Caliph that no secret of the state can remain hidden from him. Based on this, he unfairly favors others, people of his sect, or people who follow his religion. He treats those who are opposed unfairly. The basis of everything is the leadership there. How is the leadership running? On the donations of the people, from which property has been built. End the property, and the leadership will end. Do not fear what people outside will say, because we have already done this. Trusts in foreign countries are managed by the government. Many countries are doing it, we ourselves are doing it. I will submit regarding this that it should be considered very seriously, and if it is acted upon, many problems will be solved. The second proposal is regarding foreign influence. Foreign Influence: Appropriate legislative and executive measures should be taken so that the danger of foreign 2664 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept., 1974 influence adversely affecting the interest of the State of Pakistan, arising out of the organization and membership of Ahmadia Missions in foreign countries, would be effectively safeguarded against." It will be easier in this. Now you have to make a recommendation. What measures should be taken, that will be considered later. For example, one clear thing is that there has been mention of Israel. So that should be banned. The money there should not indirectly reach countries that are against us. Like the Qadian community in India, and this Rabwah community. What is the relationship between them. There should be restrictions on this. And there should be an investigation into where the money is collected. Then where it goes. Then through what means it reaches other countries, and what things it is spent on. This is a suggestion I have made. It can be considered. The second is: "Provocative Literature: Literature of the Ahmadia Movement which is of a provocative nature, or which is calculated to injure the basic religious beliefs and sentiments of Muslims or Christians should be prescribed. The possession of such literature, its bringing into Pakistan and its circulation, whether it is an original writing or is quoted in any other published matter, should be made an offence. To avoid chances of any unjust or unreasonable action, it is proposed that an appeal to the Supreme Court should be provided against any order of the Government made in this behalf." Now there is no need for this. Sir! The members have heard in front of them. What kind of things are there. Meaning words like "bastards" and "children of prostitutes" for the opponents. Then here it is also interesting that the Attorney General asked a question. They answered in He clarified that it is about Christians. This is a great quality for a claimant of prophethood, that he hurls abuses at Christians. But the trouble with us is that many Muslims used to be happy that Mirza Sahib was abusing Christians. He used to abuse Christians a lot. This is the talk of Muslims. This kind of literature, well, the suggestion is this. And the second thing, sir, is that there are some words that Muslims do not like to be used about other people. For example, Sahaba (Companions of the Prophet). We know what we mean by Sahaba. Umm-ul-Momineen (Mothers of the Believers), Ummahat-ul-Momineen, Ameer-ul-Momineen (Commander of the Believers). These are the words. These are very hurtful. They call themselves such. And there can be big names. But why is it necessary to use technical terms that all Muslims reserve for their elders? Yes, similarly, regarding Imam Hussain, I have suggested everything in it. It is not just a one-sided thing. That's why I have suggested it. If anyone is against this action, they can appeal. There is nothing hurtful in it. Why do it forcefully? My sixth suggestion is a special oath. Its meaning was that this loyalty, in which there can be a conflict, which I have mentioned, regarding specific positions, such an oath should be prescribed that a person takes, that to the extent of the responsibility of my position, regarding that, if I have any affiliation with any sect, any caste, I will ignore that. "Special Oath: I do solemnly swear that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Pakistan and that, in the discharge of my duties as a public servant, I will keep the interest....." Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Point of Order, Sir! My request was that the proceedings of the Special Committee are secret. It was for Saturday that it will not be announced outside. But outside, all of Saturday is being heard in the House. Madam Acting Chairman: Those are being heard in the Senate, not here, those are of the Senate. Malik Muhammad Jafar: I had said that this oath is not necessary for everyone. "Special Oath for Public Servants: The Federal Government and the Provincial Governments should be given authority, within their respective jurisdictions, to prescribe a special oath for persons in the service of Pakistan holding specified posts, which are considered by the Government concerned to be of a very high national importance." So, this oath I had written in it: - "I do solemnly swear that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Pakistan and that, in the discharge of my duties as a public servant, I will keep the interest of the State of Pakistan above all considerations arising out of, or connected with, my being a member of any communal, sectarian or spiritual group, organization or cult whatsoever." I think no public servant should object to this, to take such an oath. My last suggestion is about preaching. I understand Sir! that this is a big negligence of our scholars. They should realize their responsibility and this weakness should be acknowledged. That is, what we call Khatm-e-Nabuwat, it holds a fundamental position in the belief of Islam. So how did this happen? In an Islamic society, a person claimed prophethood. What contradictions in his claims, and in the rest of his affairs, even those related to women. So many flaws in things. And the inspirations are completely meaningless and incoherent. Despite all these things, why did educated people, scholars, families of Sayyids, people like Maulvi Nooruddin, and Maulvi Muhammad Ali, join this group in Islamic society? If our scholars, regarding whom there is an order in the Holy Quran for Muslims that there should be a group among you – this is about scholars – who will show people the path of guidance, then a hadith is narrated here about the scholars: (Arabic) The scholars of my Ummah are equal in status to the prophets of the Children of Israel. Such a great status. A false claimant of prophethood was born in Islamic society and his group continues to grow and develops to such an extent. Our scholars and other people should also perform this duty of preaching. But we did not perform it. When we saw that they had become very organized, powerful, had a considerable following, then this movement started. But preaching should continue alongside because these people have gone astray from our society. They themselves did not become helpless. Most are like that, in my opinion, not even one percent remain who joined at that time. Now there are their sons, grandsons, etc. They don't even know. If we do the work of preaching in the right way, there is no reason, because we have the truth and on the other side is falsehood. There is no reason why truth should not prevail over falsehood. "Tabligh: Government should set up an organization whose duty it should be to propagate the basic articles of the faith of Islam, particularly the concept of Finality of Prophethood." Let me read the last part. Sir! I have written this. Now I will only read the paragraph because I have explained it in this regard: "Recommendation No. 7 is based on a hope that if the propagation of the basic principles of Islamic creed particularly the concept of Finality of Prophethood is taken seriously in hand by those competent to do so, the heresy involved in the Ahmadia Movement, whether it be of the Rabwah or Lahori pattern, should be abandoned by a fairly large number of Ahmadis, provided the mission is carried on in a rational and scientific manner and with sympathy and compassion rather than ill-will." So, sir! I think there is a great opportunity for you. I have proposed this regarding property, and also regarding preaching. I have done all this. Those people are currently in a state of slavery, mental and spiritual slavery, those who are disciples of both groups, all of them. So, you will do a great work in history. This is a movement that has started, so that's a separate matter. If you liberate these people from this exploitative system, the exploitative system established on the basis of spirituality and religion by the people of Rabwah, and somewhat less so by the people of Lahore, but it is still exploitative. Sir! Thank you. These are my submissions. Respected Acting Chairperson: Dr. Ghulam Hussain! Dr. Ghulam Hussain: Madam Chairperson! Much has been said about the Qadiani issue, and we have a plethora of facts and material before us, in light of which we can see what the reality is. Sir, whatever inheritance and wealth of Islam we Muslims have received from Allah Almighty, we have received it through the Holy Prophet Muhammad Mustafa. And the Holy Quran itself has stated that he is the last prophet. The religion has been completed upon him. After that, a political party, a destructive party, an agent party of the British, has given many meanings to the word "Prophet" by complicating the matter in interpretations. The meaning of "Prophet" that we in Pakistan understand, and our generations have understood, is the meaning of Messenger and Apostle of God. Just as we take the word "Namaz" in the meaning of the Arabic word "Salat." We never say that we are going to the mosque for "Salat." We say that we are going to offer "Namaz." The literal meaning of "Namaz" is worship. Worship is also done of fire. We do not go to worship fire. The prevailing term is what common people accept the meaning of. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad writes in not one but thousands of places. His followers who came here testified that he called himself a prophet. These people also admit that he was a prophet. A Parallel Prophethood, accepting him as a prophet is enough for us to know that he is not one of us. Apart from this, the second point is that the person who created Pakistan was Quaid-e-Azam. Not considering Quaid-e-Azam as a Muslim, and not considering the rest of the majority as Muslims, and declaring them outside the circle of Islam, stubbornly making their Ghulam Ahmad a prophet, and not participating in Quaid-e-Azam's funeral, not even offering a funeral prayer in absentia, and declaring Jihad as forbidden, what greater proof can there be that they are neither supporters of Pakistan nor supporters of Islam. Besides this, you know that Dr. Iqbal gave us the concept of Pakistan. In the beginning, he praised them somewhat, influenced by their words. But when he realized the truth, he openly opposed them and declared that they are not Muslims. The same demand is being repeated here today. Outside this assembly, the entire nation is demanding that they be declared a minority. Firstly, their false prophethood, and secondly, their words against the father of our nation, and these words about the person who gave the concept of Pakistan, provided a guideline, are regrettable and strongly condemnable. The Holy Prophet (PBUH) said that whoever claims prophethood after me is a disbeliever and an apostate and is out of the bounds of Islam. Furthermore, take Mecca; it has been our center and focus for fourteen hundred years. The King of Mecca, Shah Faisal, has completely banned their entry into Saudi Arabia. The Islamic world has declared them non-Muslim from its forum. When they have declared it, then why don't we understand that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's role is the same as that of Lawrence of Arabia? He gathered the English there under the guise of Islam. And now, Mir is playing the same role. As for their being organized, these political and business people tend to be very organized. Israel is also considered an organized nation. Besides, most of the non-Muslim nations are organized, even though their approach to religion is wrong. As Malik Jafar Sahib has stated, due to the lack of respect and the lack of unity among the religious scholars, the failure to understand the scientific approach and objective conditions, and due to mutual conflicts and quarrels, the unity of the Islamic world has weakened. We have suffered a great loss from this. Mr. President! Mirza Nasir Ahmad has come here. I am not an expert in religious matters, I am a simple Muslim. I think that a person in front of us, in front of these members who have been elected from the entire nation, their memory is not so weak that they would forget something from three or four years ago. When they were asked if they participate in politics, if they are a political party, they stated with great confidence that neither have we ever participated in politics before, nor are we now, nor will we ever. I myself can say, and my brothers will agree, that they fully supported the Pakistan Peoples Party. Their members fully helped them in every way. There were instructions from their headquarters and their Khalifa to fully support them. They clearly supported us. [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali)] Dr. Ghulam Hussain: Whatever their political point of view, the fact is that they participated in the election. They have tried to mislead the members here by saying that we did not participate in the election. This is a complete lie. They were repeatedly asked about their numbers, how many are there in Pakistan, and they tried to answer evasively. Sometimes they say 3 million, sometimes they say 3.5 million, sometimes they say they don't have the record. You know that they have a record of every single individual. Anyone who enters their sect gives their genealogy and all the details through an initial form. You this They also know that it is an organized group. Each of their members contributes ten percent of their income to the treasury. Their so-called treasury, which they have made a source of business, like taxes they collect taxes, in the same way, they collect this tax. How could they not have records? Then why do they lie? What is the harm in telling the number? The third thing they have said, I will say as a doctor that disease can come from Allah Almighty and a person can get any disease. In this what is the disgrace? But to say that Mirza Sahib did not have cholera and that he had gastro-enteritis. Acute gastro-enteritis is the English translation of cholera. Cholera There is no point in lying by translating it into English. When a person tells one lie Thousands of lies can be told with it. A few grains are picked from a pot of rice, not the entire pot. Therefore, these people lie very beautifully and are liars. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Dr. Ghulam Hussain: Just one minute, Sir! Mr. Chairman: Sir, we have been sitting for ten days and most of the ........ Dr. Ghulam Hussain: Sir, I will finish after just one minute. Mr. Chairman, listen to me. I am not stopping you. We have been sitting for open debate for the last ten days and most of the honorable members present today were absent; and I have been requesting them that today we have got full opportunity, a member can speak for two hours or three hours. And 5th was fixed for Attorney-General. The time schedule has been announced also, and if today everybody wants to consume the maximum time, it cannot be allowed. I am sorry. You may speak and try to wind up. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2073 Dr. Ghulam Hussain: I am grateful to you for giving me time to speak. My final request is that this is a religious matter. If it is to be resolved in the true sense, then as our proposals have come, resolutions have come, and once for all, in the way that the summit conference was called before, in the same way, we should call a summit conference of scholars from all over the world and extract fundamental truths from them and create a single platform and then move forward. And as far as possible, we should end our mutual differences, and it will be a symbol and guarantee of the unity of our Islam and the Islamic community. In the end, my demand is that Qadianis should not only be declared a non-Muslim minority, but also government-level missions should be established to counter their propaganda in foreign countries, which can introduce true Islam instead of Ahmadiyyat. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Dr. Mrs. Abbasi. Two minutes by watch. Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi: Mr. Chairman, Sir, I want to associate myself, on behalf of the lady members of this House, with this important issue under discussion in this Special Committee. The importance of the issue is evident because it is being discussed in this august Committee of the whole House. We just cannot overlook the complications of this issue because this has stood unsolved for ninety long years. But, Sir, after hearing the discussions and the speeches of the honourable members and the 'Mahzarnamas' that have been produced in this august Special Committee, and the cross-examination of two leaders of Ahmadi Jamaat, has crystallized and there is no doubt that these Ahmadis and Quadianis or whatever you call them are not amongst us. They are not one with us, the Muslims as we are. I want to emphasize that the women population of Pakistan are as much concerned about this issue as the male population of Pakistan. September 13, 1974 We know, Sir, that the issue has crystalized and we are going to pass certain laws to solve this issue once and for all. After this issue is solved, we will have to combat the after-effects of the solution. Sir, I want to bring to the notice of the honourable members that when they solve this issue, they must also go to the public and let them understand the complications and what should be the solution of these complications because, after all, when you speak face to face and when you tell the people how they have to behave, they understand promptly. The modesty of the women is not molested. The other things, i.e., the international and national implications will be solved, Insha Allah, if we put our shoulder to it. Thank you very much. (Chaudhary Ghulam Rasool Tarar stood up) Mr. Chairman: Finish your speech completely. It's okay. We waited for you for 15 days. Chaudhary Ghulam Rasool Tarar: I said even when I stood up, you will remember. (Punjabi) Mr. Chairman: We have to wind up at 1:30. The Attorney General must speak today for one hour. Mr. Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri, who has signed, will get a little time. Mr. Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Mr. Chairman!.. Mr. Chairman: Won't you speak tomorrow? Mr. Randhawa is a witness to it, Mr. Ahmad Raza Khan, I requested you to speak twenty times. Raza Sahib! You speak tomorrow too. Mr. Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: I will finish quickly. Mr. Chairman: No, you speak tomorrow only. Mr. Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: As you deem appropriate. Mr. Chairman: Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): Do you want me to address now or after the break? Mr. Chairman: We can break for ten minutes. And those honorable members who want to speak tomorrow, they can get so many points from the speech of the Attorney-General, and if certain points are covered by the Attorney-General, those points need not be repeated. So, we will meet at 12.15 p.m. sharp. (The Special Committee adjourned for tea break to re-assemble at 12.15 p.m) [The Special Committee re-assembled after tea break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair] Mr. Chairman: Yes Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman, Sir, in the first place, I express my apology for absence from the House for about a week and, therefore, I was not in a position to hear some of the speeches delivered by the honorable members. I understand that some very valid points were made and cogent reasons were given and many interesting points were brought out. I really do not know whether I would be repeating some of the speeches already delivered, but it was a call of duty which compelled me to go to Karachi. Another thing, Sir, which I want to clarify and, I hope, the honorable members will appreciate, is my position as Attorney-General. I have limitations and shortcomings which, I hope, the honorable members will appreciate. First of all, in this subject, my shortcomings were obvious as for the language was concerned or the languages were concerned and the subject matter itself. But I did my best according to the instructions of this House and I am grateful to the honorable members for the confidence that they have reposed in me and for the cooperation that they have extended. Sir, I did my best, to the best of my ability. I did my duty in accordance with the wishes of the honorable members, and I think that the questions which were supplied to me were properly formulated by me. Secondly, Sir, as far as the evidence is concerned, it will be my duty to bring it to the attention of the House as to what has come on record and to sum it up. But, as Attorney-General, I am not a member of the House and I cannot give findings as the Judges do, and I cannot express any opinion also. I feel, it is my duty to assist the honorable House in an impartial manner. We must realize and we must see that I am not here just to plead the cause of one party against another, but it will be my duty, as you are the judges, to bring to your notice both the points of view so that nobody should feel and nobody should say that this was a one-sided show or that the Attorney-General, taking advantage of his position or abusing his position, tried to influence the decision one way or the other. So, I hope, that, with these limitations of mine in mind, the honorable members will appreciate if I also put forward the other point of view, or, in other words, both points of view. As far as the decision is concerned, Sir, that is for the members to take, and I am sure, and I am hopeful that this is going to be a fair decision, a just decision, in accordance with the sentiments and feelings of the people of this country. We should have in mind the interests of Islam and the interests of the country, and I have not the slightest doubt that the patriotic sentiments and sentiments of love for Islam and for the love of the country are there and, therefore, I have no doubt that the members will take the right decision. I had the honor and privilege of discussing this matter with the Prime Minister, who is also very anxious and is a worried man, because this is going to be a very important decision. He thinks just as any other Muslim thinks, and he has the sentiments like those of any other Muslim but he is also the Prime Minister of the country, and he has got the responsibility to see that nobody is deprived of his rights and nobody is deprived of his life, liberty, honor and reputation in any manner except in accordance with law so, Sir, I hope and I understand that the leaders in this House have put their heads together and they are trying to come to a decision which would be a fair decision and a just decision. You will recall, Sir, that in the course of the cross-examination also I tried to impress upon the leader of the Ahmadiyya Jamaat, Rabwah, that this House do not want to harm anybody or hurt anybody; this House wanted to give a just and fair decision. Keeping that in mind, I will make my submission and recapitulate the circumstances very briefly which brought us to this day, to these proceedings. Sir, before the House, there is a resolution and a motion, There is a motion, which was moved by the honorable the Law Minister, which is as follows: "I hereby give notice, under rule 205 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business in the National Assembly, 1973, of my intention to make the following motion: - That this House do appoint a Special Committee comprising the whole House, including persons who have the right to speak and otherwise take part in the proceedings of the House, with the Speaker as its Chairman, performing the following functions: - (1) To discuss the question of the status in Islam of persons who do not believe in the finality of Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him). (2) To receive and consider proposals, suggestions, resolutions, etc., from its members within a period to be specified by the Committee. (3) To make recommendations for the determination of the above issue as a result of its deliberations, examination of witnesses and review of documents, if any. The quorum of the Committee shall be forty, out of which ten will be from the parties opposed to the Government in the National Assembly." Then Sir, there is also a resolution, which was moved by thirty-seven honorable members of this House. [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by (Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi).] Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This reads, Sir, as follows:- "We beg to move the following: WHEREAS it is a fully established fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian claimed to be a prophet after the last Prophet MUHAMMAD (peace be upon him); AND WHEREAS his false declaration to be a prophet, his attempts to falsify numerous Quranic texts and to abolish Jihad were treacherous to the main issues of Islam; AND WHEREAS he was a creation of imperialism for the sole purpose of destroying Muslim solidarity and falsifying Islam; AND WHEREAS there is a consensus of the entire Muslim Ummah that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's followers, whether they believe in the prophethood of the said Mirza Ghulam Ahmed or consider him as their reformer or religious leader in any form whatsoever, are outside the pale of Islam; AND WHEREAS his followers, by whatever name they are called, are indulging in subversive activities internally and externally by mixing with Muslims and pretending to be a sect of Islam; AND WHEREAS in the Conference of the World Muslim Organizations held in the holy city of Mecca-Al-Mukarrama between the 6th and 10th April, 1974, under the auspices of Al-Rabita Al-Alam-Al-Islami wherein delegations from one hundred and forty Muslim Organizations and institutions from all parts of the world participated, it has been unanimously held that Qadianism is a subversive movement against Islam and Muslim World which falsely and deceitfully claims to be an Islamic sect. NOW THIS Assembly do proceed to declare that the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, by whatever name they are called, are not Muslims and that an official Bill be moved in the National Assembly to make adequate and necessary amendments in the Constitution to give effect to such declaration and to provide for the safeguard of their legitimate rights and interests as a non-Muslim minority of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan." Sir, these are the two motions; a resolution and a motion. Apart from that, some other resolutions are also pending before the House, but they mostly deal with proposals for amending the Constitution, and I will respectfully submit that I will not say anything about them for two reasons. Firstly, only these two documents were published in the Press and on the basis of these two documents, the communities affected or likely to be affected filed their written statements or memorials. On the basis of these documents they were examined. Therefore, it will not be fair to say anything with regard to the other resolutions. The Committee is authorised and competent to deal with them at any stage, but I will confine myself to these two documents and I shall make brief comments before I go into the procedure adopted for considering these documents. I hope I am not misunderstood if I am very frank in my comments on these two documents. To begin with, first the motion by the honourable Law Minister. Now, Sir, here it says "to discuss the question of the status in Islam of persons who do not believe in the finality of Prophethood of Muhammd (peace be upon him)". Let us take the expression "To discuss the question of the status in Islam". If the House is of the view that people who do not believe in the finality of the Prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad (peace be upon him) are not Muslims, then they have no status in Islam. They have nothing to do with Islam. The motion is a contradiction in terms. If it were said: "to discuss the question of the status in Islam or in relation to Islam”, I could understand that; but to say "the status in Islam" is presuming that they are Muslims. I think, it is a contradiction which may not be of importance but it was my duty to bring it to the notice of the House. You cannot say what is their status in Islam, "in relation to Islam", yes. Again, Sir, with all respect, the rssolution moved by thirty-seven members is, in my opinion, in some parts contradictory. I will not go in great details, but the honourable members will take notice of the fact that it says in one place that whereas Mirza Ghulam Ahmad "was the creation of imperialism for the sole purpose of destroying Muslim solidarity and falsifying Islam", then it says "WHEREAS there is consensus of the Muslim Umma that these followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are outside the pale of Islam." Then it further said that the followers by whatever name they are called, are indulging in subversive activities internally and externally by mixing with Muslims and pretending to be a sect of Islam. This is all very well. Then later they say: declare them as a minority, a non-Muslim religious community and amend the Constitution, provide for the safeguards of their legitimate rights and interests. Do you want to perpetuate subversion? Do you want to perpetuate the things which you condemn in the preamble of this resolution? This is the contradiction to which I wanted to draw your attention. On the one hand you say: declare them a minority, declare them a separate entity; and once you declare them as such, then you have to protect their rights. There is no alternative; and this is a very good part of this resolution. I appreciate it, I commend it, when they say that their legitimate rights and interests should be protected, but what are those rights? On the one hand they say they are a subversive movement, they indulge in subversion inside and outside. What is that subversion? Propagating their religion, practicing their religion, whatever they may be? You want to safeguard their rights and at the same time condemn them. You cannot have both. This is something which is obvious. I am not criticizing. I have no right to criticize, but it is my duty to draw the attention of the honorable members of the House that if you declare a section of population as a separate religious community, then not only the Constitution but even your religion enjoins upon you to respect their right to profess and practice their religion and to propagate it. I don't want to say anything more because I am fully conscious of the fact that there is very limited time at my disposal. Now, in view of these two documents, the motion as well as the resolution, the honorable House has to determine certain points or issues. I shall formulate and read these out: (1) Whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian claimed to be a prophet? (2) What is the effect of such a claim of prophethood in Islam or in relation to Islam? I had to mention both "in Islam" and "in relation to Islam". (3) What is the meaning of the concept of Khatam-i- Nabuwwat; when we say "Khatim-un-Nabieen" what does it mean? (4) Whether there is a consensus of the Muslim world that followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, who consider him as a prophet or promised Messiah, or both, are outside the pale of Islam? (5) Whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his followers consider Muslims who deny his claim to be a prophet or the promised Messiah as Kafirs and outside the pale of Islam? (6) Whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad founded a separate religious community outside the pale of Islam or he merely started a new sect within its fold? (7) If he founded a separate religious community, what would be its status in relation to Islam and what rights it will have under the Constitution of Pakistan? Next, I will very briefly recapitulate some of the circumstances from the day the motion and the resolution were moved. These were moved on the 30th June, 1974. After they were published, two memorials were filed by the two Groups who follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. Then representatives of both the Groups were invited to read, on oath, their statements and memorials, and I understand that they expressed a desire to be heard, so that they might further clarify and elaborate their points of view. In these documents which they filed, they refuted all the allegations made against them in the resolution. It was decided by the House Committee to appoint a Steering Committee to receive questions and to examine them. For that purpose the Committee directed that I should be here in Islamabad with effect from 25th July, 1974. In compliance with that direction I was here on 21st July. The Steering Committee took about a week to scrutinise these questions which came in hundreds. The delegation of Ahmadiya Community of Rabwa headed by their Imam or Leader, Mirza Nasir Ahmad, was examined from 5th to 10th August and then there was a break of ten days. He was again examined from 20th August to 24th August. In all, the examination lasted for 11 days. Thereafter the other section of the Community, headed by Maulana Sadruddin, who spoke through Mian Abdul Mannan Omar because he is an old man and cannot hear properly, was examined. They were examined for two days. The reason was not that the House was discriminating between the two or attached more importance to one and not to the other, but for the simple reason that most of the facts about, and documents and writings of, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had come on the record through the first Group and there was no need to go further into these details as far as the second Group was concerned. As for the first issue whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be a prophet, I think it will be appropriate to say something briefly about his life and works and the Ahmadyia Movement. While dealing with this, I will be, in a way, dealing with the first issue itself. Mirza Nasir Ahmad has filed a brief biodata of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. It is as follows:- You were born in Qadian on February 13, 1835. Your father's name was Mirza Ghulam Murtaza Sahib. Your early education took place at home through a few teachers. The names of your teachers were Fazal Elahi, Fazal Ahmad and Gul Muhammad, from whom you received your initial education in Persian, Arabic and Theology, and studied medicine with your father. From the beginning, you felt the pain of Islam and were detached from the world. You have a poem: I do not know any other teacher, I have read in the school of Muhammad. Around 1876, you also held debates and discussions with Christians and Aryas on behalf of Islam, and in 1884 you published your famous book "Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya" which is considered a unique book in support of the Holy Quran, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and Islam. In 1889, with the permission of God you started the series of initiation and in 1891, after receiving inspiration from God Almighty, you claimed to be the Promised Messiah. You spent your entire life serving Islam and authored nearly 80 books in Arabic, Persian, and Urdu and your poetic work is found in all these three languages. 2004 * NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Your sole purpose, and that of your party, was and is the propagation and dissemination of Islam in the world. You passed away on May 26, 1908, and the country's newspapers and magazines acknowledged your Islamic services in strong terms. At the time of your death, you had four sons and two daughters, and at that time, the number of members in your family was close to two hundred." Now, Madam, I have some more details of Mirza's life which I could collect from the material placed at my disposal. I shall relate these details. He belonged to an important and respectful Mughal family of the Punjab which had migrated from Samerkand to India at the time of Mughal Emperor Baber. The first ancestor of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to come to India was Mirza Hadi Beg. Lepel Griffin, in his book "The Punjab Chiefs' says as follows, and I quote:- "Mirza Hadi Beg was appointed Qazi or Magistrate over seventy villages in the neighborhood of Qadian, which town he is said to have founded and named it 'Islampur Qazi - Qazi', from which Qadian by natural change has arisen. For several generations the family hold offices under the Imperial Government and it was only when the Sikhs became powerful that it fell into poverty." Thereafter, I will read a portion from the Enquiry Committee - Court of Enquiry - presided over by Mr. Justice Mohammad Munir in 1953-54. About Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the Court says, and I quote:- The grandson of Mirza Ghulam Murtaza, who was a General in the Sikh Durbar; he learnt Persian and Arabic languages at home but does not appear to have received any Western education. In 1864 he got some employment in the District Court, Sialkot, where he served for four years. On his father's death he devoted himself whole-heartedly to study religious literature and between 1880-84 wrote his famous 'Burhan-i-Ahmadiya' in four volumes and later wrote some more books. Acute religious controversies were going on in those days. There were repeated attacks on Islam, not only by Christian missionaries but also preachers of Arya Samaj, a liberal Hindu movement, which was becoming very popular. Here I believe Mr. Justice Munir is not correct in describing Mirza Sahib as grandson of Mirza Ghulam Murtaza because Mirza Nasir Ahmad in his paper says that that was his father's name. According to the statement of Mirza Nasir Ahmad before the House, between the years 1860-1880, the British brought with them, what he called, an army of Padris - about 70 in number, as he mentioned and fierce religious controversies started, as these Padris, according to him, had declared that they would convert Muslims in India to Christianity. And Mirza Nasir Ahmad said with regard to these Padris and their attack on Islam and on Holy Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) that - They were doing and are doing this on the strength of the government. At that stage, according to Mirza Nasir Ahmad, some Ulema and other leaders of Muslims religious thought came forward to reply to these Christian attacks and to repulse these attacks, and these included Nawab Sadiq Hasan Khan, Maulvi Aley Hasan, Maulvi Rahmatullah Mohajir Delhvi, Ahmad Raza Sahib and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and he said - I do not know about all of them - but I believe about all of them and not just Mirza Ghulam Ahmad: God had given (them) wisdom and love of Islam." And that was the reason why they came forward to repulse these attacks on Islam and the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him). These controversies, these Munazeras, naturally made all those Muslims, including Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, very popular amongst Muslims. They became their heroes and it seems that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was leading them in popularity among Muslims for repulsing these attacks on Islam, although, as it has become apparent from the record, that some of the methods adopted by him and may be by others in repulsing these attacks, were not desirable and were rather the way Jesus Christ was attacked or insulted, is not only objectionable today but even at that time Muslims had objected to that. Even at that time Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had to come out with explanation after explanation. But I will not go into that detail. Because of this popularity and because they were Muslims who treated him as hero, in 1889 we find that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed decided at the age of 54 that he should accept the oath of discipleship from his followers or those who respected him or who were willing to accept him as their religious leader. Now here we find that in Burhan-i-Ahmadiya he had already mentioned that he received some divine messages or was in communication with Allah; that was known; but in 1889, actually in December 1889, according to his son, Second Khalifa of Ahmadiya Jamaat, Rabwah or Qadian, he actually founded this movement in March 1889, and the foundation of the movement does not refer to his claim to prophethood or of Massih-e-Mauood but to the effect that he started receiving oath of discipleship from his followers. There is no doubt that at that stage he got followers because the writings which we have seen leave no doubt that he had a very forceful pen, very eloquent pen, and he was undoubtedly a very capable person. He wrote eloquently in Arabic, Persian and Urdu. But one fact must be kept in mind that, in 1889, and there is some confusion on the point in one place I read that in December 1889, he received a message that he was Messih-e-Mauood, but he did not announce it and did not proclaim it. He only went to Ludhiana from Qadian to receive the oath of discipleship. Why? Why he did not announce it there in Qadian is for you to judge. But I find from the book of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad, the book called "Ahmadiyat or True Islam", that he went to Ludhiana to receive it, this oath of discipleship, and his other book, a small biography. In some other literature I read that according to Muslim religious literature, the Messiah was to come in a place, not come in a place but announce and proclaim his being Messiah in a place called 'Lud'. Probably keeping this in view he thought it appropriate to go to Ludhiana for the purpose or to receive oath of discipleship. He did not begin it in Qadian. This is what I want to point out. I shall go in greater detail about these controversies with Christians at a later stage. Here, it is also my duty to bring to the notice of the House that it was seriously alleged that his prophethood and Ahmadi movement were inspired and nurtured by the British Imperialism. This is not only mentioned in the resolution but also in a lot of ...other literature that it was done at a time when the call for Jihad was raised against these foreign imperialists, from Sudan to Sumatra. It was felt, they say by the British, to stop this call for Jihad, and for that purpose they utilized Mirza Sahib's services. This is an aspect also to which I draw your attention. It is also alleged that the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, because of the oath of discipleship, which contained a clause, or that was part of his faith, should be loyal to the British Government, or that loyalty to the British Government was made an article of faith a very serious factor - which was very much resented by the Muslims who wanted to get rid of the foreign imperialists who had usurped their Government and their authority in this sub-continent. In this way, it is alleged that because of that faith or part of that faith - loyalty to the British Government - the Ahmadis or the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad provided very good and excellent spies to the British Government. We find a reference that in 1925 there was one Mulla Abdul Hakim and another Mulla Noor Ali; two Ahmadis who in Afghanistan were declared 'Murtad' and Killed, not because they were Murtad, not only for that reason, but according to the statements of those days, and I understand 'Al Fazil' of 3rd March, 1925 also, confirmed this fact that they were found in possession of some documents indicating that they were agents of the British Government and that they wanted to overthrow the Government. I have to bring it to the notice of the House that these are the facts which have been mentioned. I do not say they are correct. As regards Mirza Sahib's interpretation of, or his approach to, the Holy Quran, as far as I understand, his approach was similar to that of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, except for a few Ayaats which according to him concern Messiah or his own prophethood. He had a rationalistic interpretation of the Holy Quran. The most spectacular weapon that he used to overcome and over-awe Muslims and others was his prophesies, I should say his reckless predictions about the persons who opposed him that they would come to sad end within a limited period or suffer miserably. Madam, in 1891, Mirza Sahib claimed to be the Promised Messiah and later on he also claimed to be a prophet. I will deal with as to what kind of prophet he claimed he was, later on. According to his son, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad, and I quote from his book "Ahmadiyyat or the True Islam": His task was to sift all errors and misinterpretations which may have crept into an existing religious system owing to lapse of time; but he had a much higher mission to perform. He had to discover in it new and limitless treasures of eternal truths and hidden powers. By pointing out this miracle of the Holy Quran, the Promised Messiah has effected a revolution in spiritual matters. The Muslims certainly believed that the Holy Quran was perfect, but during the last thirteen hundred years nobody had imagined that not only was it perfect but that it was an inexhaustible store house in which the needs of all future ages had been provided for, and that on investigation and research it would yield far richer treasures of spiritual knowledge than the material treasures which nature is capable of yielding. The Holy Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement has, by presenting to the world this miraculous aspect of the Holy Quran, thrown open the door to a far wider field of discovery and research in spiritual matters, than any scientific discovery has ever done in the realm of physical science. He not only purified Islam of all extraneous errors and presented it to the world but also presented the Holy Quran to the world in a light which served at once to satisfy all the intellectual needs of mankind which the rapidly changing conditions of the world had brought into existence and to furnish a key to the solution of all future difficulties. Now, Madam, I shall briefly say one or two things on this point, namely, that he discovered hidden treasures in the Holy Quran which for thirteen hundred years no other Muslim had been able to discover. Nobody doubts that the Holy Quran has a wealth of treasure that mankind will discover; nobody can deny that. It is full of wisdom. As man progresses, as we go deep into it, we find new meanings and new discoveries. But when I pointedly asked Mirza Nasir Ahmad as to what the discoveries were which except Mirza Sahib no Muslim knew before, apart from his interpretation of 'Khatim-un-Nabiyyeen', or about the life of Hazrat Essa whether he is alive or not, or directly qurery he pointed out that there was his commentary on "Surah Fateha" in which 70 per cent of his interpretation and commentary was new. That is for the leamed Ulama of the House to judge and comment on. I have nothing to ...say; but I only know Allama Iqbal's opinion about his discoveries in the Holy Quran, which is: "Our age has also produced a prophet, who in the Quran could see nothing but himself." And I think it is a very fair assessment. As far as we could understand, Mirza Sahib interpreted or re-interpreted those provisions which interested him. Now, Madam, while dealing with his life and religious career, I will draw the attention of the House to three different stages in his life, and in this career, as already mentioned, the first stage was when he was a religious leader like other Muslim religious leaders having the same faith, the same views, the same notions, and he crossed swords with Christians and Arya Samajis. To indicate his view at this stage, say from 1875-76 to 1888-1889, I will first read a quotation. It is a translation from Arabic from 'Roohani Khazain', volume 7, page 220, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, Here he says: "Do you not know that the merciful and gracious Lord has named our Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, as the Seal of the Prophets without any exception, and our Prophet has clearly explained its interpretation in his saying 'There will be no prophet after me' for those who seek. And if we were to allow the appearance of a prophet after our Prophet, then it would be as if we were allowing the door of prophecy to open after it had been closed, and this is not correct, as is clear to Muslims. And how can a prophet come after our Messenger, peace be upon him, when revelation has ceased after his death, and Allah Almighty has sealed the prophets upon him?" This was in clear terms. He expressed his views on the subject of "Khatim-un-Nabiyyeen". Then he further said: The Prophet repeatedly stated that no prophet would come after me, and the Hadith "La Nabiyya Ba'di" (no prophet after me) was so famous that no one disputed its authenticity. And every word of the Holy Quran, especially the verse "But he is the Messenger of Allah and the last of the prophets," confirms that prophethood has ended with our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." Every wise person can understand that if God Almighty is true to His promise, and according to the promise made in the verse "Khatam an-Nabiyyin" (the last of the prophets), and as explicitly stated in the hadiths that Gabriel has been forbidden from bringing the revelation of prophethood forever after the death of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), then all these things are true and factual, and therefore no person can ever come as a prophet after our Prophet. "We curse the claimant of prophethood. We believe in 'La ilaha illallah Muhammad Rasulullah' (There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah) and we believe in the finality of prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah." This was the first stage of his religious career. The second stage starts somewhere 1888 when the oath of discipleship was taken from his followers. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2691 "In short, the effect of the book began (he is talking of "") gradually to spread, and many people wrote to the promised Messiah, praying that he might accept from them the oath of discipleship. But he always declined and replied that all his actions depended upon Divine guidance until the month of December 1888, when the revelation came to him that he should accept from people the oath of discipleship. Accordingly, the first oath took place in the year 1889 at Ludhiana (as I have already mentioned) in the house of one sincere follower named Mian Ahmad Jan, and the first to take the oath was Maulana Moulavi Nooruddin (May God be pleased with him). The same day, altogether 40 persons took the oath." As already mentioned by him, at this stage he had not proclaimed that he was a promised Messiah or prophet. He had only mentioned that he was receiving divine revelation and was in communication with God. Then, Madam, we go to the second stage of his career and how he starts the beginning. I may be wrong, but as far as I could understand, he moved very cautiously, very carefully, to change the position which he had taken before. The lecture in Sialkot and 'Mubahsa' in Rawalpindi, at these places, he made some utterances which are interesting. He does not claim that he is a prophet. But he says, and I quote: "How can you attain those blessings without the prophets and messengers? Therefore, it was necessary that the prophets of God should come from time to time to bring you to the level of certainty and love, from whom you would receive those blessings. Now will you oppose God Almighty and break His ancient law?" Then the next step we find is this which I have just read from his 'Roohani Khazain', volume 20, page 327. Then 'Tajaliat-i-Ilahia'. Again, I quote from 'Roohani Khazain', volume 20, page 412. Here he says: Now, all prophethoods are closed except for the Muhammadi prophethood. A prophet with a Sharia cannot come, but a prophet without Sharia can come, but only one who is first an Ummi. So, on this basis, I am an Ummi and also a prophet.” According to me, a prophet is one upon whom God's word descends with certainty and definitively, in abundance, which contains the unseen. Therefore, I have been named a prophet, but without Sharia." "God's seal has done this work, that one who follows the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) reaches such a level that from one aspect he is an Ummi and from one aspect a prophet." "I am a messenger and a prophet, meaning that by virtue of perfect reflection, I am that mirror in which the Muhammadi form and the Muhammadi prophethood are perfectly reflected." Allah Almighty made the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the owner of the seal, meaning that He gave you the seal for bestowing perfection, which was never given to any other prophet. For this reason, you were named Khatam-un-Nabiyeen. That is, following you bestows the perfections of prophethood, and your spiritual attention is a prophet-maker, and this sacred power has not been given to any other prophet." [At this stage, Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair, which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali).] Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: After that we reach the third stage of his career, but before I come to that, Sir, there are one or two references to which I will draw your attention. They are about their interpretation of خاتم النبیین and why there was a need for a Prophet which is published in "Kalmat-ul-Fasl" according to the Qadianis or Mirza Ghulam Ahmed himself or his followers. This reason is given in the Review of Religions, Volume XIV, No. 3-March and April 1915 Issue. I find it interesting and pathetic, and I do not have to say why, but the background and the reasons why Mirza Sahib had to claim or was sent as Massih-e-Mouood is given here on page 101. I will just read some portions of it. It is written - narration - he says: "The armies of Gog and Magog were emerging with full force, pouring in from every high place. Islam was lying at the feet of Christianity in a dying state, and atheism was presenting itself in a beautiful form. But even then, the Muslims remained unmoved, sleeping soundly in the sleep of negligence. Until the time came when the soul of Muhammad (peace be upon him) seeing the plight of his ummah, writhed and pleaded at the Divine threshold, saying, 'O King of Kings, O Helper of the poor! My boat has been caught in a dangerous storm. Wolves have attacked my sheep. My ummah is caught in the clutches of Satan. So help me Yourself and send a shepherd for my sheep.' Then suddenly the veil of darkness was torn from the sky, and a prophet of God, with his hands on the shoulders of angels, descended upon the earth to save the world from this great storm and to support the collapsing structure of the Ummah of Muhammad." Then further he says: 2094 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [5th Sept, 1974 He who, becoming the world's last savior, descends from the sky to the earth in times of trouble, he who comes to destroy the wolves attacking the sheep of the Ummah of Muhammad, he who, seeing the ship of Islam surrounded by a storm, raises it and brings it to shore, he who, finding the nation in the clutches of Satan, attacks Satan, he who, seeing the Dajjal at its peak, steps forward to shatter its spell, he who stands alone against the armies of Gog and Magog, he who comes to earth as a prince of peace to resolve the mutual disputes of Muslims, he who, finding the world covered in darkness, brings light from the sky, yes, the only son of Muhammad, whom the prophets were proud of. When he descended to earth, the sheep of the Ummah of Muhammad became wolves for him, stones were rained upon him, he was dragged into lawsuits, plans were made to kill him, decrees of disbelief were issued against him, he was declared an enemy of Islam, people were prevented from going to him, his followers were subjected to various kinds of hardships. 66 I do not have to comment on this, Sir. On the one hand it has been eloquently said on behalf of Ahmedis or Qadianis that Messiah will not come from heaven above as the other Muslims believe. Here they depict that picture showing him descending physically and that is being emphasised. Then the pathetic part is that on the one hand it is said that how much this man was needed and how much he did and what was his cause, what was his aim, what was his purpose to help Muslamans, to save them, and yet as he says: "The sheep became wolves." Why? Why this reaction? Why this sharp, violent, hostile reaction against a person who is a hero, who is a friend, who has been helping them? This we have to consider and this is simple because he had struck at the roots of one of the cardinal principles of our faith, the faith of Musalmans, the concept of 36. There was no other reason why Muslims should attack a person and be so hostile to him as his own son describes. Again, Sir, the reason why Mirza Sahib came into this world as a Nabi or Messiah and what was the need for it and the interpretation of his followers and Mirza Sahib himself about the ختم نبوت concept of is given in Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmed's book 'Ahmadiyyat or True Islam', page 10 and 11. I will read from there. It is 1937 edition. I quote: "We hold the belief that this succession of Prophets will continue in the future as it has existed in the past, for reason repudiates any permanent cessation of this system. If this world is to continue to pass through ages of spiritual darkness, ages in which men will wander away from their Maker; if from time to time men are to be liable to go astray from the right path and to grope in the thick darkness of doubt and despair in their efforts to regain it; if they are to continue their search after the light in all such ages and times, it is impossible to believe that Divine Torch-bearers and Guides should cease to appear; for it is inconsistent with (Rahmaniyyat), the Mercy of God, that he should permit the ill but should not provide the remedy, that he should create the yearning but should abolish the means of satisfying it. To imagine so would be to offer an insult to the Fountain-head of mercy and compassion, and to betray one's spiritual blindness.... If the world was ever in need of a Prophet, it is much more in need of one today, when religion has become hollow and Truth is, as it were, dead." Now, Sir, this is a rationalistic approach. They say that, well, after all, the world is a new place; different people will come and from time to time, as Allah sent his Prophets before, he will continue to send his Prophets. This sounds reasonable, it seems sensible. He says that this process should not stop. Mankind will need revelation from Allah or somebody to come and interpret the revelation which has already come. This their rational approach. They have published the book in England for English people. When I asked Mirza Nasir Ahmed whether any prophet had come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, he said, 'No'; when I asked whether any prophet has come or is likely to come after him, he said 'No'. So, all this reasoning and rationalism disappeared in fog and mist; and what does it actually mean? It simply means that he is c Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the last of all prophets. They come to that conclusion. Mr. Chairman: I think, the rest we will take up tomorrow. So, tomorrow, we meet at 9.30 a.m. as the Committee of the whole House. Thank you very much. (The Special Committee of the whole House adjourned to meet at half past nine of the clock, in the morning, on Friday, the 6th September, 1974.) No. 20 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Friday, the 6th September, 1974 (Contain Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS 1. Recitation from the Holy Qur'an 2. Qadiani Issue-General Discussion 3. Fateha Khawani for Martyrs of 1965 War..... 4. Qadiani Issue-General Discussion. Pages 2927 2927-2931 2931 2931-3067 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD PUBLISHED BY THE NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION, ISLAMABAD In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Friday, September 6, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at half past nine in the morning, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION Mr. Chairman: Yesterday it came to my notice that the members of the National Assembly and Senators were stopped outside and their vehicles were not allowed to enter the Assembly. I apologize for this. This was absolutely wrong. No authority has the power to stop any MNA's vehicle inside the Assembly premises because this Assembly belongs to MNAs and Senators. I apologize for this. It was brought to my notice at five past four. I took action. In future, this shall not be repeated; and I am very sorry. Again I will repeat that if it had been brought to my notice, I would have regulated it. MNAs have a right to come to the Assembly. For that, I think, the honorable members will take necessary....... 2927 Mian Masood Ahmed: Mr. Speaker! In this regard, I would like to submit that all this happens because new people are assigned here on duty every day after transfers. I would like to request that there should be a permanent staff here who knows that these are MNAs, and perhaps they do it because of unfamiliarity. Mr. Chairman: Mian Sahib! What to do, we are thinking about this, but what to do, we don't even get time from the proceedings of the Assembly, otherwise we are thinking to have our own everything, our own police, our own everything. Maulana Mufti Mahmood. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: As far as your person is concerned, I believe that you or our Secretary Sahib, these people have no involvement in this. Therefore, your apology is our own apology. It makes no difference. The question is that the people who have done this, Ghulam Farooq Sahib himself had said that he was stopped. Mr. Chairman: He is the one who brought it to my notice. Maulvi Mufti Mahmood: They knew that he is an MNA, yet they stopped him. Stopping an MNA from entering the House is such a big crime, you should demand an explanation from them, hold them accountable. Mr. Chairman: Yes Maulana! They are writing letters to all the authorities, agencies, that no one can regulate inside the Assembly premises unless they consult with the Assembly Speaker and the Secretary. No one has any authority inside Gate No. 3 and 4, except for the Secretary of the National Assembly. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: Sir! They are stopping us. They are saying that only flag cars will come from their side, no MNA's car will come. Mr. Chairman, Ghulam Farooq Sahib brought it to my notice at 5:15. For that, I am very sorry. No authority has a right to regulate anything within the Assembly premises. This is the Assembly, it will exercise its powers through the Speaker or through itself; and for that I am sorry. Along with this, I will also request that the MNAs should also impose restrictions on themselves, because when we say unwanted people, they should not bring them either. This is a request subsequent to that also, this is a request. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: By the way, Mr. Chairman! When we were stopped regarding the guest and we disclosed our identity, they said that we have orders from the Speaker that no MNA's car should go inside. They were referring to your authority, Sir! Mr. Chairman: They have wrongly quoted, for that Mr. Ghulam Faruque is a witness. Yes, that is wrong, because they cannot say that SP has stopped or DIG stopped or anybody else has stopped. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: I had another request to make, Sir! Mr. Chairman: They made a mistake. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: I had a sample of classical arts that came from Sargodha, it was presented to you. I didn't get it back. Mr. Chairman: I'll talk about that. Attorney General Sahib! The Attorney General will speak for ten minutes, then he will leave. 2930 Mr. Ghulam Faruque: Sir, firstly, I apologize to you for all the trouble that I caused you. I think, I came to you in a bit of temper because I had a little argument at the gate and I tried to explain to them that I was sure that the Speaker had not issued this order to the Military Police. I do not want to pursue it further. I also feel thankful for the very prompt action that you took and I am a witness to what you did, and I may also tell the honorable members of the House that you were not aware a bit until I brought the matter to your notice. Mr. Chairman: Mr. Ghulam Faruque, I have taken a very strong note of it and I will pursue this matter and see that in future these things are not repeated. Thank you. Mr. Ghulam Faruque: Thank you very much. Col. Habib Ahmad: Mr. Chairman, Sir, you have earlier said that the members should be careful not to bring unwanted people in the premises of the Assembly. Well, that will be all right and I think we will take care of that, that we do not bring in undesirable or unwanted people inside, because this is a very big responsibility; just as it is yours, it is ours. But, at the same time, I would like to point out one thing more for your consideration. It is this, that whenever we go into the lobbies or whenever we go into the canteen cafeteria, we recognize every MNA, we recognize every MPA, we recognize every Senator, because we have been living for 2-1/2 years together, we know each other; but at the same time, my worthy friends will support me when I say that we see there quite a number of people who are not known to us. They are not familiar; their faces are not familiar. What they are doing there, I do not know myself, whether they should be there or they should not be, but if they have to be there from your point of view or from the point of view of others, then I would like them to have some identity card or something in their possession so that we should know that they are authorized to sit down there; otherwise we always feel that we are being harassed and we feel........ Mr. Chairman: Col. Sahib, I think, day before yesterday, I told the House that I was thinking of introducing two types of cards-one for the gallery and one for entry into the premises; and if it is left to myself, if I have to regulate something, I would like to QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2931 have this cafeteria only for MNAs and for Senators, so that they can relax, they can talk, they can freely move; only if it is left to myself. But if an MNA is accompanied by four of his friends, then we cannot stop it. You have to impose restrictions on yourselves, if you impose, the rest will be from us. Dr. Mohammad Shafi: Sir, why not have two types of cafeteria one for the MNAs and one for the guests? Mr. Chairman: We cannot have it, we have lack of space; already it is divided, in one portion the Senate is accommodated. Dr. Mohammad Shafi: All right, let us expect that you will have it in the near future. Mr. Chairman: Insha-Allah. Now we proceed on. FATEHA KHAWANI FOR MARTYRS OF 1965 WAR Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Mr. Chairman, Sir, before you permit the conducting of the proceedings, this is the 6th of September, the great day in the history of Pakistan when our valiant warriors fought and laid down their lives, so I would request you and through you the House that we should offer Fateha for those Shaheeds, and then we can proceed on. Mr. Chairman: Yes. This will be released to the Press that the House Committee offered Fateha. (Fateha Khawani was held) QADIANI ISSUE __ GENERAL DISCUSSION Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I have just received a message that the Prime Minister wants me now. I think, I hope I will be permitted to continue this evening, or if I could come back earlier, but I don't think it will be possible. NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 Mr. Chairman: No, it is Friday, we have to close by 12:30. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In the meantime other members will continue. I have to cover a lot of ground, so in the evening...... Mr. Chairman: Yes, at what time you have to leave? Mr. Yaha Bakhtiar: Just now. Mr. Chairman: Then we will make an exception, and you are permitted to leave and resume your summing up of the arguments, And, in the meantime, I will request the honourable members who wanted to participate in the debate. Moulvi Niamatullah. Maulvi Niamatullah: Mr. Speaker! I would like to submit that it is good that those wearing suits have also been stopped by the soldiers today and they have become equal to us. We used to complain every day that they stop us, and there was no one to question them. But now it is good that those wearing suits have also been stopped and your attention has been drawn to them as to why the suit-wearing people have been stopped. Mr. Chairman: Everyone's honor is equal. Those wearing Shalwar Kameez have more because this is our national dress. Maulvi Niamatullah: Sir! The fact is that if I mention the name of Pakistan, it would not be out of place. Here, meaning there is no value for the members of the Assembly. There is no procedure. We cannot go to the Secretariat of the Frontier because soldiers are standing there. We take out our cards and show them. We have a card. I am a member. They say, no, throw the card away. They do not recognize the card. Permission is not granted here. So I request you to at least make some law or procedure clear to someone that, brother, this is a member of the National Assembly, this is a member of the most powerful house in all of Pakistan. Its members have some status. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2933 should be so that it becomes known that this is the number. But we cannot answer a soldier. We cannot answer a police officer. A capitalist who was not a B.D. member could go directly to the D.C., but a Member of the National Assembly, being a B.D. member, could not go to the D.C. Mr. Chairman: There is a big difference between you and a soldier. The soldier has authority, and you have service. You come to serve, and he comes to use authority. You should know the difference between yourself and him. Malik Karam Bakhsh Awan! Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan: Sir! I want to bring to your notice what is the need for these MNA boards on the cars. That is, when passing over a bridge, one has to stop and pay the payment to cross the bridge. Mr. Chairman: I have written letters to the Provincial Government regarding this. I have written myself, and had them written from the Secretariat. I issue manual permits. Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan: Sir! I went to Murree on July 31st, where I was stopped at the check post, even though the MNA board was affixed to the car. So, tell the soldier that MNAs are VIPs. He said that people like Wali Khan and Mufti Sahib can go from here, but not for you, because one has to ask A.H. Mr. Chairman: They are party leaders. Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan: So, they do not know that MNAs are also VIPs. Mr. Chairman: You should put up both boards, that is, two MNA boards. 2934 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF Pakistan Mr. Karam Bakhsh Awan: No, if we are not even allowed to go somewhere where VIPs can go, then what is the need for any board? Mr. Chairman: No, God willing, we will definitely do something about it. Chaudhary Ghulam Rasool Tarar Sahib! You have to give a speech. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Sir, regarding the point raised by Malik Karam Bakhsh Awan, I wrote a letter to you seven or eight months ago, and it was that members are stopped at every bridge and every toll tax barrier and they are forced to pay toll tax. Sir! It is not a matter of one or two rupees. It is a question of the prestige and the privilege of the members of the National Assembly. When you say that this is the biggest house and your chair is the biggest chair, then when the question of our rights arises, you say that you do not have powers, you only have service. So, I would like to submit that you replied to my letter "that your letter has been received. Rest assured. Justice will be done." What was my letter and what was your reply. And today the same voice has been heard from different sides of this house. I understand that if we do not have powers, then at least you have powers, and we consider your powers as our own powers. Mr. Chairman: I have no authority. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: If you do not use your powers, then at least do justice. You promised seven months ago that justice will be done. Mr. Chairman: Sir, you are a lawyer. You understand that I am not an executive authority. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Your Excellency! You are not the executive authority, but you are the custodian of our rights, the custodian of our privileges. Justice delayed is justice denied. Your Excellency! You said justice will be done, but justice has not been done to us in this matter. Mr. Chairman: No, everyone has been sent letters. Colonel Habib Ahmed: Sir! I would like to submit that I agree with Chaudhry Jahangir Ali, not only with him but also with all our esteemed members who are present here. On what point? On the point that the people who were MNAs or MLAs or old parliamentarians before us, when we new people sit with them, they talk about their times. One thing becomes very clear from the talks of that era. That is, the people who used to be elected to the assembly at that time were highly respected. They were respected everywhere, they were respected in every office, they were respected in every department, but nowadays there is no respect anywhere, from the patwari's office to the commissioner's office. Mr. Chairman: That is a provincial subject. Colonel Habib Ahmed: I know, but listen to me. I know that you do not have executive power, but you must listen to us. The secretariat in which you sit, the same secretaries tell us that they are junior to the MNA. We were told this. If they didn't tell us, we would think we are less than a peon, and it would be an honor for us. But we have been told this. They have flags on their cars Why don't we get the respect we deserve as public representatives? I am not saying this on my own behalf, but all my friends who are sitting here will also agree that the respect that we had in mind is not there, neither in the police department, nor in the administration department, nor in the center, nor in the province, nor in any administration, is our respect. And what is the authority for our protection? Sardar Sher Baz Khan Mazari: Mr. Chairman! Mr. Chairman: You want to speak? Sardar Sher Baz Khan Mazari: Yes, I had something to say. Mr. Chairman: In this connection or in connection with the issue? Sardar Sher Baz Khan Mazari: You have said, sir, that we are servants. That is fine. But when we talk about soldiers and commissioners, they are our tax payees. They are servants of this nation. I feel, Sir, that because of your unassuming manner and modesty, you happen to think that you have no importance. I am sorry, I do not agree, with due respect, with your views about yourself. You are here to protect the interests and rights of the House. Surely you can protect the interests of this House. They are paid to do this job. We happen to represent at least the masses. Day in and day out, we are told that masses are sovereign. If we represent the sovereign people of Pakistan, our status is no less than anyone else in the executive post. I appeal to you that whatever problems have been placed before you, they are genuine, and there is no party basis for this. It is not a question of privileges; they are to pay due honor and respect to the masses of Pakistan whom we represent. A toll tax of one or two rupees does not make any difference. You are talking about a peon. with due respect, I submit that this matter may be taken up with those who are at the helm of affairs, those who hold responsible position in Government, to ensure that the dignity and privilege of the representatives of the people of Pakistan are maintained. Thank you. Dr. Muhammad Shafi: Sir, I want to say one thing. Mr. Chairman: We will talk in a day or two. I agree with the sentiments of the honourable members. Honourable members of the National Assembly are entitled to the highest respect and regard, leaving aside the placing in the Warrant of Precedence, leaving aside other matters. They are the persons in whom, the people of this country, who have a right to rule this country, have reposed their confidence; they are entitled to it as such. These things, whenever they happen, whenever they come to my notice, I am always prompted to take action. I always write, I always take action through whatever channels are available to me, and on all the complaints I have always taken action. It is my duty to maintain the dignity of the House and I shall maintain the dignity of the House inside the House. I will see that all honourable members of the National Assembly are safeguarded outside. That is my duty. Ch. Ghulam Rasul Tarar. Chaudhary Ghulam Rasul Tarar: Mr. Chairman! Before making my speech, I would like to request that our Attorney General... Mr. Chairman: Just a minute. The Attorney-General had to come today. He could not resume his address. He will not be able to come back by 12:30, so, up to 12:30, I request that honourable members, whosoever wants to speak can speak. After they have finished, I have reserved time for the Attorney-general, who will take about two to three hours. Attorney-General's summing up of evidence is a must; that must come on record. He is just conversant with the evidence. If at all they want to speak, I will request the honourable members to be brief so that we may finish by 12:30. Tomorrow is the last date. Tomorrow, we have to finalize the recommendations by 7th. Prince Saeed-ur-Rasheed Abbasi: I would request that you inquire how many speakers there are and allocate time accordingly. Mr. Chairman: Yes, I will request the honourable members who want to speak on this issue may please rise in their seats. Those who have already spoken will not speak again. You may speak after they have spoken. Chaudhry Jahangir Ali and Maulana Abdul Hakeem have already spoken extensively. Mr. Chairman: After Ghulam Rasool Tarar Sahib, Ahmed Raza Qasuri and Maulvi Zakir Sahib will speak. Ten (10) to fifteen minutes is plenty. Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool Tarar! Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool Tarar: Mr. Chairman! The Attorney General, and indeed the entire Special Committee, has clarified this 90-year-old issue and presented it before the Committee. I am also grateful to Mirza Nasir, who requested to present his position before this Committee of yours. When all the discussions took place, they said that they too are Muslims and do not consider Mirza Sahib to be a prophet, and that their group is like Deobandi, Barelvi, etc. We did not have as much of an idea in our minds as has been revealed here from their position, and I draw your attention to the fact that they have indicated they want to be our brothers. Mirza Sahib has written in his own writings that all Muslims will convert, and those who do not will be illegitimate, the children of prostitutes. So, I believe that their insinuation, they do not want to say it about themselves, but I am included in all Muslims. They want to maintain a brotherly relationship with us, but they have clearly stated that this is what they consider us to be. Therefore, the question of a brotherly relationship with them does not arise because they acknowledge Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet and said that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet. I am surprised that their being a prophet or acknowledging him as a prophet, and how people are not accepting it when they themselves... QADIANI 15ɔUE GENERAL DIƏLUSSIUN 2939 They say that I am loyal to the British, my family is loyal to the British, and at all costs We will act according to his will. After that, let someone tell me today, my My scholars are sitting here, they can also tell that it exists in any history. It is not that a prophet is a prophet, no saint or Muhaddith has ever walked to a king or to the ruler of the time. He went to the ruler or begged someone for help, but there are examples that Kafir kings used to come to the Muslim saints with their desires and present themselves at their feet. Muslims, even infidels, used to come there with their desires. was. Does this person, who calls himself a prophet, ask from anyone? A non-Muslim government Asks for help from those who are not even Muslims. From his position, it has been proved to me that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was an agent of the British and The examples that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has given here that he debated with the priests And whatever was written against the dignity of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, he answered it, it was his It was not an answer, it was only because he had spoken to the British that I I can gain the sympathy of Muslims only in this way that I participate in debates. Just like spies come. Sikhs happen to sit in the mosque and prove it to people. They offer prayers to prove that we are Muslims, but in reality they are of that government. Are spies. In this way, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a spy and agent of that government. [At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi] 2940 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Sept., 1974 Chaudhary Ghulam Rasool Tarar: Since the history of Christians tells that they were in danger from Muslims. Our religion says that even if we become Mujahids, it is Jihad, and even if we become martyrs, it is Jihad. To destroy our faith in this Jihad, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was appointed, and he was financially supported in such a way that he could spend as much money as he wanted on foreign missions so that Muslims would understand their faith in such a way that it is not permissible to wage Jihad. After that, he claimed to be a prophet. We are Muslims, and we have faith in the Quran. According to the Quran and Hadith, after the Holy Prophet (PBUH), no prophet, الظلی , شرعی or غیر شرعی , can come, whereas he called himself a prophet. Today, he has admitted it before us. It has been admitted from his books that he used to call himself a prophet. I believe that whoever calls himself a prophet, and those who believe in him as a prophet, are all apostates. Madam Chair! I want to draw your attention to this, while yesterday a new thing came out that حضوری or Allah had requested in the court of God Almighty that my Ummah, the sheep are being eaten by wolves, so Mirza Ghulam Ahmad should be sent there to save them. I submit that when the Holy Prophet (PBUH) requested in the service of ذات باری تعالٰی that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad should be sent to save my Ummah, then instead of saving them from that person, God Almighty has the power to save everything anyway, He can save. This Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had come here to save us! In these circumstances, this is not a minority. He used another word with the circle of Islam, I had not heard that word until today. Whoever is outside the circle of Islam, I believe, is not a Muslim either. The second QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2941 I also agree with the word, they should also be expelled from the Muslim community so that the Muslim nation and the great Islamic world can be saved, which they are trying to destroy. I think that maybe this would be a harsh word, I am also one of those bearded people, but until today it has been said that what will the People's Party do? I say that this is not just the birth of the British, but also because of the connivance of the previous governments that they have progressed so much, otherwise if Sir Zafarullah had not been there, I don't think there would have been a single Ahmadi in the outside world. All these missions were the result of their connivance. The clerics have undoubtedly tried. The clerics have always said that they are not Muslims, they are not Muslims. But what did the clerics have? The government was with them. Who can do anything against those who have the government with them? That's why I don't agree that the clerics have done nothing. The clerics have done a lot. The clerics have done so much that they have kept this issue alive. If the clerics had not worked so hard, this issue would have been खत्म by now. The job of the clerics was to sit in the mosques and try for their livelihood. What could they do? What could they do to counter the mission outside? They have missions, like Christian missions come and mislead people, they are given money to mislead them, they were given government help, they were given positions , in fact, people who say that so-and-so cleric and so-and-so scholar has come to this religion, Muhammad Ali has come, Kamaluddin has come, so-and-so has come and this has happened and that has happened, all those people came to this religion out of greed for positions, otherwise this is not a religion and no question of this religion arises in the world. After that, I would like to submit that my honorable friend Malik Jafar Sahib said yesterday, I disagree with that a little. He had said that the clerics did something 2942 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Sept., 1974 They didn't. I have stated that the clerics kept doing what they had to. Now, I would like to submit that, with the grace of Allah, just as the People's Party will have the honor of expelling these infidels from the circle of Islam and declaring them apostates, I would also like to add something to this resolution with your permission. Once they are expelled from the circle of Islam, it is not a time to rest, because in the new states that were liberated in the world, simple-minded Muslims were told by their missionaries that they believe in خاتم النبین (the Seal of the Prophets) and that they have faith in Allah Almighty, but they did not know what was next. They misled them and made them call Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a reformer or whatever else they wanted, and thus misguided them. I propose that the People's Party, or any Islamic government for that matter, has a duty to send missions to reform these apostates and sores who have been working in foreign missions. If the government can arrange for Hajj and send delegations abroad, then it should also send delegations of religious scholars to those states so that they can bring those people to the right path. It is not their fault; they are true Muslims. They were simple-minded and did not have full knowledge. Since these people got the opportunity, they went and, under the guise of Islam, misled them. The government should form delegations and send them abroad so that this sore can be eradicated, and Islam can flourish as it did during the time of the Holy Prophet ﷺ and the Rightly Guided Caliphs. A handful of Muslims could not be eliminated by anyone. There are examples where Christian armies of five hundred thousand soldiers fought against forty thousand Muslims. Madam Acting Chairperson: Please try to conclude. There are only ten to fifteen minutes left. QADIANI ISSUE_GENERAL DISCUSSION 2943 Chaudhary Ghulam Rasool Tarar: Absolutely right. Such missions should also be sent. For them, the People's Government, as it is expected to declare them, will, by the grace of Allah, after which their Bait-ul-Mal etc., their properties, which have been built by taking ten percent from us, from our brothers, they are my own brothers, whose income is ten rupees, they will surely give a rupee, even if they go hungry themselves. All of it should be confiscated and spent on these missions. The money of Auqaf should also be spent on these missions. This is service to Islam. And it is our duty to do so. With these words, I thank you. Madam Acting Chairman, Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqi! Ten minutes. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqi: Ten minutes are plenty. Madam! The issue of whether those who believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet are Muslims or not, is such an old issue of our nation, and there has been so much detailed discussion on it in this House for the past month that there was no need for any further addition to it. But despite this, I have stood up to mention a couple of things in a few minutes. First of all, I am very grateful to the youth of the generation that believes in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad for attacking our students in Rawa and presenting this issue, which had been buried in the pile of problems, once again to the nation, and the nation has come forward on this issue in such an organized manner that this House was also forced to take some steps in the right direction on it. And I am also grateful to them for creating an atmosphere of unity in this House by reviving this issue. I think that in the last two and a half years, since this Assembly came into existence, this is the first issue in which 2944 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 People on both sides of the House agreed not just verbally but wholeheartedly. We have agreed on many things before, but sometimes there were expediencies in mind, sometimes other things were in mind. But this is an issue in which colleagues sitting on both sides are in complete agreement, both verbally and wholeheartedly, and I believe that the expression of this consensus that has been happening in recent days will, God willing, result in this Assembly making such a decision on this issue that will be acceptable to God and acceptable to the people. Mr. Speaker, I would like to submit a very important point to my colleagues sitting on the left and especially to the government, and that is that there are two aspects to this issue. One is the legal aspect and the other is the administrative aspect. The legal aspect is that the Assembly, by amending the constitution or bringing in new laws, declares those who do not believe in the finality of the prophethood of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as non-Muslims, and as a result, the followers of Ghulam Ahmad are declared non-Muslims. This is its legal status. But a bigger issue than this is its administrative status. As Mr. Tarar rightly stated, as a result of the previous governments' connivance, these people have entered various departments in the last 25 years, wearing the guise of Muslims, under the name of Muslims, and with the cooperation of other members of their sect and with the help of their senior officers, they have reached key positions. You are well aware of the fact that these people have reached very important positions in the army and civil services at this time. When it is decided that they are neither Muslims nor patriots, then keeping them in key positions is not only hurtful to the sentiments of Muslims but also against the security of the country itself, and I would say that the People's Party's QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 2945 It is also necessary for the government to remove these people from these positions. The issue of removing them from these positions is purely an administrative matter; the House cannot do anything in this regard. Therefore, I will probably represent the sentiments of the House if I demand from the government that it take immediate steps to remove them from these administrative positions, from key positions. I know this, and I feel that all these people cannot be removed from all key positions at once. This can create an administrative vacuum and other problems for the country. But - If the government has this issue before it that they have to be removed, then they can be made. In this connection, there is another thing, rather a difficulty that is likely to arise, that many of those people in the administration and many of those individuals who are in key positions and who are also among the followers of Ghulam Ahmad, they might start saying that we are Muslims and we believe in the doctrine of the finality of Prophethood. But I know that the government has intelligence and other such machinery that can give them the correct information about who are the people who belong to this sect and whose behavior can be contrary to the interests of the country and the nation, they should be removed. Therefore, that machinery should be put into action, it should be set in motion, and it should find out such people and place them properly in the right place according to their number. Then the second thing I want to say in this regard is that if we have made this decision in the assembly, God willing, according to the demands of the people, then I feel with full intensity that these people themselves will try to create some trouble in the country, that is, those who are followers of Ghulam Ahmad, so that Pakistan is defamed in the eyes of the world. 2946 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept. 1974 And people should understand that Pakistan is a country where the people of one sect or those who are not Muslims are not treated justly. Based on argument, I know that preparations are being made to provoke Muslims, somewhere by staging attacks, somewhere by doing such acts, to incite Muslims so that such a situation of riots can arise. I know that the government is undoubtedly vigilant in this regard and is taking such measures that such a situation does not arise, but the people of this House have more responsibility. It is the responsibility of all of us, whether in the opposition or in the ruling party, that if, God forbid, such a situation arises, then we ourselves should come forward and struggle for the protection of the life and property of the followers of Ghulam Ahmad, because once they are declared a minority, it is the responsibility of the Muslim government and the Muslims to protect their life and property. And this decision will be made, God willing. In the country, it will be our responsibility that we strive to prevent any riot or any unpleasant situation from arising. Lastly, I would like to submit that the Attorney General Sahib, in his speech yesterday, made a comment on the resolution that we had proposed. Here, the resolution presented by 37 opposition members, while commenting on it, he pointed out one thing which I think is the result of a misunderstanding. But it should be clarified so that the record of this committee remains clear. He had said that contradictory things have been said in this resolution, that is, on the one hand, it has been said in this resolution about the Qadianis that they are involved in anti-national activities, and on the other hand, it has been said that their rights should be protected. So if they are involved in anti-national activities, then the protection of their rights... The meaning they took from it was that we should give them free rein to continue their anti-state activities. I would like to state that when we presented this resolution, we kept both these facts in mind. One fact is, and we know this based on our knowledge, that the followers of Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani are struggling against this country and the Muslim community and are involved in such activities. But despite this, even a criminal has the right to live, and his life and property should be protected. Therefore, I say that they will not be allowed to continue these activities, nor will they be considered Muslims, but as citizens of this country, they have the right to the protection of life and property, and it is our responsibility to give them this right through law and administration. So there is no contradiction in this resolution. It has been stated by stating a fact that we should protect their legitimate rights by preventing them from these actions. This is our responsibility. So these were a few things that I wanted to present through you. Madam Acting Chairperson: Maulana Muhammad Ali! Maulana Syed Muhammad Ali Rizvi: Give Maulana Muhammad Zakir Sahib a chance first. Madam Acting Chairperson: Okay, Maulana Muhammad Zakir! Maulana Muhammad Zakir: Mr. Speaker! A lot of the House's time has already been spent on this, and there is no need for further clarification. But I am surprised how this issue was discussed in this way, even though this issue is so clear, such an established fact that there was no need to express any opinion on it. The opposition was given a chance in it and its reply was published. CMU CRIMINAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 16th Sept., 1974 And on this, speeches were made and the Attorney General was troubled. All these things happened. But What was the need to bring this issue under discussion in an Islamic state? This is so It is as clear a thing as the day is, as they say, clearer than the sun. There was a discussion on this. The truth is that to speak more on this, to explain further, I consider it impolite, it is disrespectful. This was not such an un-Islamic government that needed this clarification. When this is our claim and our declaration that this is an Islamic government, then In an Islamic government, such an issue which is an accepted fact, to bring it under discussion in this way is a matter of surprise. How was it a surprise that it was brought under discussion? I think this Bringing it under discussion is extremely disrespectful. This is an insult to the glorious dignity of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him). Who are we, what is our reality, that we should discuss it when the Creator of the universe has decided it. Clear instructions are already present in this regard. There was no room for any doubt in this that we should reconsider it. This is a very surprising matter, which is somewhat okay, has happened. But further in this There should be no room for any kind of wait. The eyes of the world are on us. Pakistan The great majority within is waiting for you with great impatience, and foreign countries are also are watching what the national honor, the honor of faith, the honor of Pakistan is. Therefore, in this There is no need for further discussion on the issue, then a lot of proceedings have taken place during the Attorney General's discussion. and now there should be a clear decision on this. There is no other solution but a clear decision. If our ruling party remains in further doubt, it will cause further loss. I consider it bad manners to say anything more on this matter. I will once again draw attention to the fact that according to its importance, according to its status, according to its dignity, we should have a way of thinking, and in it is our salvation. You are well aware, and it is clear to everyone, that this mischief is a legacy of the British Empire, and the British Empire gave it opportunities to flourish; otherwise, it would have ended long ago. Then, such a thing would not be tolerated in any Islamic country. Since Pakistan was formed, much time has been wasted after its formation. Many movements failed to prove fruitful. And those who raised this issue and acted carelessly were crushed, and they are still wandering around today. My friend Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool Tarar Sahib has rightly said that it would be fortunate for the present government if it clearly uses its courage of faith in this matter. With national expectations, as a spokesman for the people, I say that there should be no more doubt and suspicion regarding this decision. There should be no more waiting. There is no need for any debate in this matter. This is a completely legitimate thing. It is a decisive matter of Islam. Courage of faith should be used in this matter. If the government is a little slow, a little careless, and gets caught up in any political issue and cannot adopt a clear policy in this matter, then its consequences will be very dangerous. Those results are obvious. Everyone's minds are eagerly yearning and asking, especially since this task has been entrusted to the National Assembly. The National Assembly has a great responsibility because it is the representative body of the country. As far as I have reached at this time, in my opinion, I do not remember any member speaking against it; almost all have supported it. So, there is no reason why this issue should not be resolved according to the wishes of the majority because The National Assembly has almost fulfilled its true duty. Now it needs the government's courage. If the government, after correctly assessing internal and external support, acts with true moral courage, success will surely be achieved. Do not think that this discord is only internal, but this discord is also in foreign countries. They are loyal to India. Such men are sitting in Qadian, 313 men, that is, infidels, are seated there. They have their feet dangling in two boats. They have started working against the ideology of Pakistan in Pakistan and also in India. In addition, they have greatly disturbed Islamic countries, especially Arab countries. They are in cahoots with Israel. Israel and their propaganda are the same. It's the same program. Israel's and theirs. The ideologies of the Jews and their ideologies are very similar. They have the same program. In any case, they are conspiring against Islam in the guise of Islam inside and outside Pakistan, and we must be saved from all these conspiracies. We have waited a long time before. Then our foreign policy remained weak. Only Chaudhry Zafarullah caused such great damage to the foreign policy, which is an irreparable loss. Wherever these people have been, they have tried to hollow out the roots of Pakistan. We must be careful of them. As Farooqi Sahib has said, a board should be established for their diagnosis so that it can be पता (Pata - Hindi/Urdu for known) that this is Qadiani and this is non-Qadiani. Until we can make such a diagnosis, this class will continue to cause harm. Wherever they are in the army in high positions or in small jobs, there should be a committee for their diagnosis, and especially their clarification should be made in the census. We have no objection to this. QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 2951 No. Pakistan has a responsibility to protect their wealth and lives as a non-Muslim minority. This is correct. There is no narrow-mindedness in Islam. There is great generosity in Islam. Islam has only promoted tolerance, but this tolerance is not such that it can be tolerated that they maintain their conspiracies and harm Islam. Therefore, they should also be specifically clarified in the census, and in all jobs, in trade, in every matter, they should be happily given rights according to their population ratio, but this deception cannot be given, it cannot be tolerated that they, under the guise of Islam, while living inside Pakistan, in Arab countries, in Nigeria, in America, in different countries, harm Pakistan. An effort should be made to avoid this. I will reiterate that there is absolutely no need to prolong this proceeding further. This is a clear issue, rather it is a self-evident thing. It only requires courage of faith. If you adopt the correct method at this delicate moment, then surely there will be salvation. Thank you. Madam Acting Chairman! Maulana Muhammad Ali Rizvi! You have to speak for ten minutes. Maulana Syed Muhammad Ali Rizvi: We praise Him and send blessings upon His noble Messenger. Today, the issue that has been discussed in this House for three months, is not such that anyone should have any disagreement, although there was definitely a lack of information, a lack of knowledge. There were many people who did not know what Mirzaism is, what Qadianism is, what their aims are, what their intentions are, what they want. Whether this is a religious sect or a political sect. Now, in every respect, this group has been clarified before us, what their aims are. This is not a religious sect, it is a tool of the enemies of Islam. 2952 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Sept., 1974 In fact, the eighteenth century, from where the decline of Muslims began, at that time the British also came to India and also the British domination in other places in Asia. At that time these are the three persons: one is Mahdi Sudani, the second Sheikh Sanasi and the third Fazl Haq Khairabadi and Maulvi Inayat Ahmad Kakorvi, Mufti Sadruddin Sahib. These gentlemen issued a fatwa of jihad against the British, and there were also confrontations in various places. Consequently, Fazl Khairabadi (may God have mercy on him) and Maulana Inayat Ahmad Kakorvi, along with about five hundred scholars, all of whom were sentenced to deportation to the sea, sent to the black water, and these gentlemen also died there. In order to eliminate the effect of this fatwa of jihad, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was made a tool. In the beginning, he adopted a method of making a place in the hearts of Muslims. He became a debater of Islam. He debates with Christians, sometimes debates with Aryans. When he gained his place and position among the Muslims, after that he claimed prophethood. Now this thing has become fully clear to us, but the scholars were against him from the beginning. The scholars of truth had declared him a non-Muslim from the beginning. But since the Muslims or the scholars had neither authority nor power nor any power of patronage. With him, sir! The entire government was in Qadian. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Even after and during his time, whoever was against him was killed there. Consequently, a famous incident is that Muhammad Hussain was killed, Sultan Ahmad Multani was killed, Whatever they did with Abdul Rahman Misri, his house was burnt down, he was expelled from Qadian. But since there was government patronage, British patronage, support from Britain was obtained, so even if the cases went to trial, nothing happened. In Qadian, no one was against them. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2053 There was no courage to raise a voice. If anyone spoke even a little, then such atrocities were committed against him that books are filled with his atrocities. After that, Pakistan was formed. You see in Pakistan, they acquired land in Rabwah and established a parallel government in the heart of Pakistan, and even there they would settle their cases themselves, whether they were civil or criminal, and here we used to say that these Mirzais would one day destroy this country. We saw that this Mirzai, whom you made the Foreign Minister, established our country's friendship with everyone. But there was one country with whom he did not establish friendship. But why was he an infidel? Was he irreligious? What was the difference? Because the foundation was laid in such a way from the beginning, therefore, he did not allow friendship with Afghanistan, with whom we had unity in beliefs, also unity in society, also unity in religion, because this Foreign Minister was Qadiani. Any Qadiani who went to Afghanistan has been beaten, murdered there. Their ambitions have now come before you. They also have military power. Somewhere there is Al-Furqan Force, somewhere there is Ahmadi Force. After all, there is no such religious group in our Pakistan that has forces, that has power, that has fighting volunteers. This is such a group that has fighters, war- fighting volunteers are also present. This group is not religious. But this group wants that whenever they get a chance, the entire country should be occupied. And then their ambitions became clear from the books that they do not want to see a non-Ahmadi, do not want to see a non-Ahmadi alive. They absolutely do not want to see them in this country for a moment. But a foolish mistake was made by them at the Rabwah station. Allah Almighty wanted that this sect should still be eliminated. 2954 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9th Sept. 1974 ...of the prophethood of His beloved Muhammad, may God bless him and his family. This is an accepted fact, it has been for thirteen hundred years, it is the belief of Muslims that no other prophet can be born after the Holy Prophet, may God bless him and his family. The arrival of Hazrat Isa, peace be upon him, is not in the capacity of prophethood; he will not come and say to us, "I am a prophet, believe in me." That was the time that was his. He came, he announced, "I am a prophet." People believed. Now he will come only in the form of good tidings, to fulfill the good tidings. To erase this good tiding, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad built the tomb of Hazrat Isa in Kashmir. Since the British were in power, there was no one to stop him. Therefore, I would like to submit that everything of theirs should be banned. They should not be allowed to preach either, and this group should be declared a political group rather than a religious group so that their accounts can be fully monitored. And the people should live in two ways. Their rights, which the Dhimmis have in Islam, are not denied. We will protect their lives and property when they come within the bounds of the law. We are not responsible before they come within the bounds of the law. If they are declared a minority, as demanded by the public, and if any kind of hesitation is shown in this, if any weakness or flexibility is allowed, then no one has the power to quell the passion that is raging in the public at that time, to remove that fervor. Therefore, I would like to submit again that while declaring this group as non-Muslim, their freedom to preach, freedom of movement, everything should be fully monitored, and after that the Muslims will be completely satisfied. Madam Acting Chairman Rao Hashim Khan! Only ten minutes. Mr. M. Hashim Khan: Sir! The issue that this special committee has been facing for the past three months is not a new issue. The Muslims of this country have been facing this issue for almost a century. On various occasions, the Muslims of India tried to have them declared as a non-Muslim minority. Until 1947, they were not successful in their efforts because they had the patronage of a very great power. And after 1947, for the first time in 1953, when the struggle began to declare Ahmadis as non-Muslims, at that time I would say that every movement that resorts to violence faces failure. In 1953, since violence started and violence is always answered with violence, and when violence fails, then the movement also ends with it. This was the situation in 1953. The leaders of that movement at that time adopted the method of violence. They abandoned the path of non-violence, so before the whole country and before the eyes of the whole nation, such an important issue seemed to have ended forever, and it would never rise again. So, that was the situation then. I believe that it was a kind of divine support that after 1953, no one seriously considered how the people of this group are becoming organized and how they are taking over everything by appointing themselves to important positions in this country, who have a significant influence in politics and worldly affairs. Sir! You will see that the people of this sect first tried that since many things come in open competition, we used to have CSP, PCS exams in which there was open competition. were, they could not be very effective there. There, it was that if one person out of a hundred (100) came, they would go into open competition. Those of their senior officers tried the most to take over corporations in this country. You will see that in this country, whatever corporations exist, the most important positions in them are held by them. The procedure for this has been that they got a man appointed as the chairman of PIDC. Suppose they made me the chairman. Now, since I have become the chairman, I became indebted to a senior officer. That officer was Ahmadi. After two or four days, he told me that I had you appointed as chairman, you should appoint so-and-so as the site officer. I was under that obligation, so according to his wishes, I recruited an officer whose job it was to recruit, so that person employed 99 percent Ahmadis in that institution. PIDC, Jang, and insurance companies, wherever these people went, they were in the majority. In this way, they continued to dominate our economy; whoever has the money also has the voice. Today, these people are organizers because they have money and resources. Even though they are one or two percent, that is why they compete with us very fiercely. [At this stage Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali.}] Mr. M. Hashim Khan: So, I am submitting that after 1953, for the first time, they awakened this issue. If the Rabwah incident had not happened, then I think that this nation would not have been ready to pay attention to this. QADIANI ISSUE_GENERAL DISCUSSION 2957 Sir, I must submit one thing, that this current government is facing many problems. There are such problems that this nation has never faced before. For 25 years until today, we have not faced such resources. The biggest problem that has not been solved until today, I think it is our good fortune that we have tried to solve this thing, which could not be solved for the last hundred (100) years, with great skill. Sir, here Nasir Ahmed said that it is not our authority, he has challenged this assembly that the assembly has no authority to adjudicate it and declare someone non-Muslim. I think this House is an authoritative House in this country. There is no greater power than this. If this House cannot give a verdict about someone, then which House is it that can give this verdict? We want that this House should not be put into this confusion. However, it is wrong to say that this House has no authority to solve this issue. This House has full authority to say about any party and any sect that it is right or wrong. We can legislate here in every way. A right is definitely imposed on us that we cannot do anything that is against the spirit of Islam, which is against the constitution, and we are not authorized to legislate this way. There are many parliaments in the world where it is said that they can do everything, but in this country, the parliament does not have the authority to declare halal and legitimate as illegitimate. Apart from this, it can do all kinds of worldly legislation. They say that religion is a personal matter, we cannot give a finding on it. I do not agree with this. I think that religion is only personal until 2730 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Sept., 1974 The problem remains as long as it is limited to a person's self. If I have an idea in my heart and I am busy with my worship, then it will be a personal matter. But when we come out and openly say such things that affect other people, their feelings are hurt, then it is no longer a personal matter. In this country, which was acquired in the name of Islam, to say here that God forbid, a prophet can come even after the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), it would be a great injustice to our feelings. One thing has been observed and I have personal experience that from college till now, all the Ahmadis who have been with me, we used to argue with them and use very harsh words, but they used to dismiss it with a laugh. For the first time after the formation of Pakistan, they started violence. How did the minority dare to resort to violence in a country that came into existence in the name of God and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)? I think the government should be aware of this. How did they dare to attack the train and torture the Muslims, to oppress those people who make up 99 percent of the total population. Mr. Speaker, I would like to submit that this Assembly has no choice but to either declare us, i.e., the majority (God forbid), as non-Muslims or declare them as non-Muslims. They have clearly said in front of you that they do not consider those who do not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet to be Muslims. 99 percent of the population of this country does not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet at all. Mr. Speaker, this is necessary and people believe that this is a very important issue. There is a lot of pressure on it. This is an international matter. I think that our interest and the interest and well-being of the people also lies in the fact that the representatives of the people should find a solution to this problem. The public wants them to Non-Muslims understand, and that is also my belief. After declaring them non-Muslims, I would like to say that if this movement turns to violence, if you try to do something more to them, I warn you that that violence will always fail. The way this movement has been tried to be kept peaceful until today, if violence comes instead, it will harm us and benefit them. They will try to create violence somewhere and take this movement towards violence. It is our duty to have the assembly make a decision about them. They should be declared non-Muslims, and after that, their life and property should be protected, which will be our primary duty. Violence against them is like violence against Muslims in India, and we cry out. If we do not protect our minority, what can we expect from others? Therefore, after any decision, it is our duty to protect them. Our youth, children, and elders, everyone should solve this problem and treat it without violence. Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Mr. M. Hashim Khan, in a minute, I would like to say that I had the opportunity to go to Bangladesh. In the market, a representative of Ahmad met me and gave me a pamphlet and said that here Mujib has declared this country a secular state, you should do the same. These people are supporters of secularism. If they were Muslims, they would not say such things. In the end, I would like to say that we should declare them non-Muslims. And after the success of this movement, it will be our duty to solve this issue together successfully. Mr. Chairman, Sahibzada Safiullah! Later it will be others' turn. They get up for one minute and then take fifteen minutes, but when they say fifteen minutes, they finish it in ten minutes. Sahibzada Safiullah! Sir, the resolutions that are currently before the Special Committee, a detailed statement in favor of them has come from our side in the name of Millat-e-Islamia, which Maulana Mufti Mahmood Sahib has read on behalf of all of us, and after that, other distinguished members have also expressed their golden thoughts, and now there is no aspect left in it that is under discussion. Sir, we had given Mirza Nasir Ahmad and the head of the Lahori group the opportunity to present their position before the Special Committee. There should be no misunderstanding in this that we wanted to satisfy ourselves or that it was a controversial issue that had not been resolved, and we are now sitting down to resolve it. Its decision was made fourteen hundred years ago by Allah Almighty, and besides the authentic hadiths and the consensus of the Ummah, countless verses of the Holy Quran have been revealed in this regard, and one of them, which is the consensus of the Ummah about it, that it is definitive about the finality of prophethood, is the verse of the fifth Ruku of Surah Al-Ahzab, and I am reciting it. I seek refuge in Allah from the accursed Satan. In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last of the prophets. And Allah has full knowledge of everything." That is, O people! Muhammad (peace be upon him) is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets, and Allah Almighty knows all things that He does not have to send any prophet after him, and he is the last prophet, and this is the decision of the Ummah, the decision of the Ummah. There is consensus that this is definitive regarding this matter. Meaning, we were not sitting here to decide or ask for any further proof for our satisfaction, but they had requested that they wanted to present their case, so we gave them the opportunity. Sir, you had instructed us to show great patience and tolerance, and the patience and tolerance we have shown, God is witness to how much we were hurt by their hurtful words and their blasphemies, but despite that, we maintained discipline and listened to all those things. And during this cross-examination, the Attorney General extracted those hidden things from their hearts that they did not want to reveal. From their statements, this matter is now as clear as day, and every respected member of the House will now, God willing, give their verdict with satisfaction, and it has become clear to all that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad brazenly presented his false prophethood to the world. Sir, this thing has also come to light how the British gave their self-cultivated plant the opportunity to flourish and grow into a mighty tree. But we have no complaint against the British; they always use these tactics to divide the Muslim Ummah into pieces. Our complaint is with our rulers. Sir, after Pakistan was formed, they should have called them, explained to them, "Brothers! This false prophethood will not work now; leave this story now, and if you do not leave it, then live as a non-Muslim minority in the land of Pakistan." But what happened was that our rulers gave them more opportunities than the British and allowed them to dominate the Muslims. And now, in any field of life in Pakistan, if you search, there will be a Qadiani sitting as an officer, and no secret of the Pakistani government is now hidden from them. Mr. President! There is no doubt about it, and it is now clear that our relations with the entire Islamic world have deteriorated because of these people, and our relations with all brotherly countries have deteriorated. These are the people behind the deterioration of relations with Afghanistan. I remember that during the Arab-Israeli war in 1956, a Qadiani officer of our government issued a statement against the Arabs, and the reaction was that the entire Arab world still views Pakistan with suspicion, and when the Kashmir issue was presented in the Security Council, many Arab countries did not vote in our favor because of that one statement, but rather supported India's position. We are reaping the consequences of these people's actions. For example, Mr. President! I will now shorten this story because the time allotted to me is very short. I want to draw the attention of the esteemed members of this esteemed House, through you, to one thing, and that is a very surprising thing: after the creation of Pakistan, the government of Pakistan abolished all the states that were within Pakistan. The state of Bahawalpur, which was a knowledge-loving state and where the first verdict against the Qadianis was issued, but Bahawalpur is abolished. Dir, Swat, and Chitral are abolished, and Rabwah, which is a state within a state and whose head is Mirza Nasir, is still standing. And now we have learned, and it has been brought to our attention, that the chastity of Qadiani women is not safe from the family members of Mirza Nasir, who is the self-proclaimed Caliph, and their pleas are not heard, and they are helpless. They can do whatever they want there. So, in this regard, I would like to submit that Rabwah should be completely abolished, and its status as a state within a state should be ended. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2963 should do and it should be declared an open city and there should be construction of government buildings, such as Tehsil, Thana etc. Secondly, Sir! It is that under Section 256 of the Constitution, their military organizations should be abolished and banned, otherwise this threat will remain forever and there will be no effective guarantee of the security and survival of Pakistan without abolishing them. Mr. Speaker! It is very strange that in this country a man cannot use the police uniform, cannot use the uniform of DSP. In this country, if it is found out about a man that he prints currency notes and does his business, then the government catches him and punishes him. But the strange thing is that in this country, the business of fake prophethood has been going on for 27 years now and they have a free hand to do whatever they want and they are not punished for it. This is a very surprising thing and it is tantamount to challenging the honor of the Muslims of Pakistan. And if this opportunity is also wasted, then the Muslims of Pakistan No one can save them from the wrath of Allah Almighty. spoke. Mr. Speaker! You look at me again and again. I have only taken five minutes. Mr. Chairman: It has been ten minutes. Sahibzada Safiullah: I just want to limit my speech to the points. Mr. Chairman: Take five more minutes. You started speaking at 11:20. Sahibzada Safiullah: Two, four more minutes. Mr. Chairman: This whole house is a witness that I have never lied in my life. 204 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [oth Sept. 1974 Sahibzada Safiullah: Two, four more minutes. Mr. Chairman: You can take five minutes. Sahibzada Safiullah: Okay sir, Mr. Speaker! Mr. Chairman: According to the record it is 11:17, according to my calculation it is 11:20. The poor will be left behind. Sahibzada Safiullah: I was submitting that when the business of false prophethood takes place in this country, how can we claim that we are free and that we have freedom? And how can we be proud of this freedom? When we have so far failed to protect the honor of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), how can we claim that we are free and that we have got a free country. Mr. Speaker! I have left out many points. I request that the condition of the country at this time is such that the eyes of the public are focused on this committee. We have worked continuously for two and a half months and now people are seeing what is going to happen. But the fruit of all our efforts and struggles can only be achieved when we are in the constitution to be successful in bringing such amendments that Allah Almighty and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and acceptable to the Muslim Ummah. Why are we afraid, that is, why are we like this Victims of inferiority complex. I have heard from many wise people that this The disliked name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed should not come in our constitution. Mr. Speaker! Alright, but I want to submit that the holy book from our constitution is the Book of Allah Almighty. book, but where these things were inevitable as per requirement, Haman and The names of Qarun and Abu Lahab have been taken and the name of Iblis has been taken. So if our QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2965 What is the problem if Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's name appears in the constitution? That is, when we look at our problems from the perspective of others and examine them and estimate them, it is not a good thing. This is the biggest problem of our country. What to do, we are facing it, we are stuck in it. Now if we don't take his name, that is, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's, impure name, in the constitution, then we are helpless. Mr. Chairman: No, no, we are not roasted. God willing, we will take it from him. Sahibzada Safiullah: Sir! I have left out many things. My submission is that whatever is in our constitution... Mr. Chairman: Please tell me, I am looking for "Maududi masterpieces". Sahibzada Safiullah: He has done whatever he has done with the words of Allah Almighty and with the holy hadiths of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and after that Ibn Arabi and Imam Ghazali and Hazrat Abdul Qadir Jilani (may God have mercy on him) and the words of all, then what is the wonder if they do it with the words of Maulana Maududi. He has done it with the words of God Almighty. Sir! I was submitting that if the constitution... Mr. Chairman: "Zoo, the so-called society of present-day Muslims in which kites, vultures, bears, partridges and thousands of kinds of animals are gathered." Political struggle, Part III. Sahibzada Safiullah: I have already submitted that he has done it with the word of Allah Almighty. I was submitting that if in Article 106 of the Constitution, where there are other minorities, we include the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his followers and adherents and consider them as a non-Muslim minority, then what is the problem in that? And in this... 2966 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 After that, whatever legislation will be done, there will be further additions to it with the advice of the scholars. The second thing is about the key positions. I just want to submit in this regard that as far as we know, this will be a matter of the future, it will be a legal matter that in the Islamic capital, the non-Muslim minorities, such as Dhimmis, etc., can hold which positions and which they cannot. I clearly state that according to Islamic law, the defense department, including the military, etc., Islam has exempted non-Muslims from military service, meaning they cannot hold any position that involves national defense, and this is also correct, Mr. Speaker, that it is a state based on principles. On which principle the state is based, the protection of that state, the protection of that country, and the ways to protect it from enemies, and fighting and dying for it, is the responsibility of those who believe in that principle. But how will those individuals fight who always have the revelation of their prophet on their minds that: Now leave the idea of Jihad, O friends War and fighting are now forbidden for the sake of religion He is an enemy of God who now does Jihad He is a denier of the Prophet who holds this belief So how will they protect the country? And haven't we seen what happened to us in '71. Mr. Chairman: Leave it, sir. Sahibzada Safiullah: Mr. Speaker! Finally, through you, I would like to request the honorable members that at this time a great It is a test, and at this time, we are not only representing our constituency, nor Pakistan, but at this time, we are sitting here representing the entire Islamic world and the Muslim Ummah. Whatever shortcomings we have in this regard will harm the Islamic world and the Muslim Ummah. And if we make the right decision, and it is acceptable to Allah Almighty and His Messenger Muhammad , then we will be successful, and we will seek forgiveness for our sins from Allah Almighty and hope for intercession in the service of the Messenger of Allah . Thank you. Mr. Chairman: He has not answered this yet. Mahmood Azam Farooqui Sahib will answer this. The race of hunting dogs in the election campaign. Democratic assemblies, their membership is also forbidden, and voting for them is also forbidden. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui: I can give many more answers; you should be ready to listen. Mr. Chairman: No, no, this one. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui: You should be ready to hear its answer. Mr. Chairman, Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Mr. Speaker! Esteemed! You can estimate the love and devotion for the Arab Messenger Muhammad Mustafa from this verse of Hazrat Allama Iqbal: If you are faithful to Muhammad , then we are yours. What is this world? The Tablet and the Pen are yours. Mr. Speaker! The love of the Messenger of Arabia, Hazrat Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is for a Muslim for him is a river of his faith, a river of his devotion, a river of his love, and a Muslim is a humble drop of this river and that is why it is said: c Ishrat is a drop, it perishes in the river. To be annihilated in the love of the Messenger of Arabia, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, for a Muslim, the Messenger of Arabia To end oneself in the love of the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is the height of his Ishrat, For him it is a pinnacle of his devotion, for him it is the best feeling of love is. I would like to submit to you that this assembly has the devotion of the Muslims of Pakistan If it is not decided according to the love of the lovers of the Prophet, then I am here I want to register these words that the Muslims of Pakistan in the love of the Messenger of Arabia ﷺ They will die like moths. Maybe the decision you make will be written in pen and ink. will go If you make a decision with pen and ink against the wishes of the people of Pakistan, If their feelings, their passionate love with the Messenger is not done, then the Muslims of Pakistan will take up the sword and Write the decision with blood. This decision will be steeped in the love of the Messenger of Arabia ﷺ. But I want to tell you that you have to make such a decision. If you think you By making the wrong decision, can you scare and threaten the people of Pakistan with the Federal Security Force or the army? If you can finish it, then this is a complete lie. People for the love of the Messenger of Arabia ﷺ Chaudhry Jahangir Ali: Mr. Chairman! What is the meaning of his words that the members of the committee should be threatened to start the decision, what is the meaning of such a speech? Mr. Chairman: No, that's wrong. I have said it. You be absolutely carefree. I have taken note of it and I have warned the speaker. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Mr. Chairman! I would like to submit. Mr. Chairman: This is a very good speech for Lal Masjid. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Mr. Chairman! This speech will be heard all over the country. Mr. Chairman: No, it will be heard. But for God's sake, give us one day. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Mr. Chairman! The source of our politics is mosques. The politics of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was from the mosque. Hazrat Umar fought all his battles in mosques. You have desecrated the mosque. Mr. Chairman: No, no. You do not know the context as you have come after 20 days or a month; all the Maulanas in this House can understand very well. Ask them. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Sir! I did not know about your joke. I apologize. Mr. Chairman: No, we do it every day. If you come after a month and make a firry public speech, we cannot be a party. The entire House is not a party to it. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: That's why I submit, I am coming to this issue. Now, Mr. Chairman! I would like to submit that I think this issue should not have come to the assembly because when we call something an issue, the meaning of the issue is that there should be two opinions on it. You take something to court when there are two opinions. You bring something to the assembly when there are repetitions. This is not even a problem. This is faith. This is our devotion. What Allah Almighty decided 1400 years ago, what the Holy Quran finished 1400 years ago with its verses, we don't even consider it a problem, and who are we, the descendants of Plato, who will sit in this era 1400 years later and decide whether the Messenger of Arabia (PBUH) was the last prophet. Mr. Chairman, this decision is not with the assembly either. It isn't. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri, so sir! Mr. Chairman: This isn't either. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: This issue... Mr. Chairman: The assembly's faith on this is stronger than yours. (Laughter) A decision has been made on this. It is not relevant. There is no room for anyone to talk about it. You talk up to this point. Even up to this point, no member has any room. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Yes. Mr. Chairman: The point here is that the status of these people should be determined. (Intervention from Chaudhry Mumtaz Ahmed) Mr. Chairman: You unnecessarily bring up such a thing. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Sir, should I answer this? Mr. Chairman: No, there is no need. Why do you talk about such things in your speech? Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Either have it removed or my answer is coming. QADIANI ISSUE_GENERAL DISCUSSION 2971 Mr. Chairman: Why do you say such a thing? You are provoking the entire House. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Sir! They want to insult their leader through me. I will say two or four sentences. Sir, the British introduced two sects in India because the British policy in India was to divide and rule. The British introduced the Arya Samaj sect among the Hindus and the Qadiani sect among the Muslims. Look at their beautiful way of thinking. They saw that Hindus believe in many gods. A sect was introduced among them that believed in unity. Arya Samaj. And Muslims, who believed that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the last prophet, had a sect introduced among them that says a prophet will come. And this was the cunning and shrewd policy of the British. In India, the two communities that were united and struggling for freedom, to expel the British, the Arya Samaj among Hindus and the Qadiani sect among Muslims were introduced to create division among them. Mr. Chairman: This has been thoroughly discussed in this House. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: I have a complaint against you, I have this objection against you that you either have animosity towards me. Mr. Chairman: You start wrong. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: You don't have animosity like Muawiyah towards me, do you? Mr. Chairman: No, no. 2972 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Sept., 1974 Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Keep Ali too. Mr. Chairman: Look, this point has come up in the house ten times, and most members Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri did not make any points. The pulpit and altar Everything has been said on. These things have been happening for ninety years. No one has said anything new. You have put so many restrictions on me. Have some mercy. Mr. Chairman: I am asking the House. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: You didn't ask the House about others. Mr. Chairman: If I ask the House, I will not let you say a word. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Look, you said it's wrong, I said I've dropped it. Mr. Chairman: Now is the time for suggestions regarding proposals. These points have been sufficiently dealt with for two months.-◆ Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: I propose if you let me speak. Mr. Chairman: Please, present the proposal. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: I am bringing a thesis of a different kind. I I am discussing purely historical motivations. I think this issue has been stirred up from the pulpit and altar. I am not Plato or any Mufti, I am giving this issue a political direction. QADIANI ISSUE__GENERAL DISCUSSION 2973 Mr. Chairman: Just a minute, only two people have objected that this Assembly does not have the authority. One is Mirza Nasir Ahmad and the other is you. Only two persons. Nobody else has objected. And I can tell with all the authority that this Assembly is not only competent but the only forum to determine the status of Ahmedis. Now the Assembly is getting into it. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: You are saving Mirza Sahib's life. You shouldn't save his life. I have objected to this. Sir! I was submitting that Pakistan was created. Sir! Pakistan is a country whose foundation is not linguistic nationalism, not geographical nationalism, nor is its foundation cultural nationalism. If its foundation were linguistic, geographical, or cultural, then Punjab and Bengal would not have been divided. But in Pakistani history, Punjab was divided, Bengal was divided. This means that Pakistan has a different foundation. Pakistan is founded on Muslim nationalism. When Pakistan was being created, our leaders went to every street, every settlement, every village throughout India and explained what Pakistan means: La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah. When our country is based on the Kalima of La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah, then this country can only be strengthened according to the Quran and Hadith, the building of this country can be made strong and beautiful. But what have we seen? Pakistan is an ideological country. An ideological country, sir, cannot be broken with cannons and tanks. You can break its geographical boundaries with cannons and tanks, you can destroy the mills of any country, you can destroy the population of any country, but you cannot destroy the ideology that is filled in their minds. The ideology of our country is filled in the minds of Muslims. Its building, its foundation is in our minds, in our faith, in our devotion, and this country was built by lovers of the Prophet. This country 2974 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 It is made in the love of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. A country that is made with the love of the Messenger of Allah, a false ideology is being created within it, because as I have submitted, you can destroy an ideological country with a false ideology because a false ideology when it goes into the minds and creates disruption, creates chaos, great tragedies arise from this chaos. My honorable President, I want to submit to you that you cannot destroy this country, but you can destroy it with chaos, and a false ideology has been created for this chaos, and that was the ideology of Qadianism. And my dear President! The thing is that just as we have love for Makkah Mukarrama and Madinah Sharif, we have devotion to Madinah Munawwara, in the same way, God forbid, God forbid, the Makkah Mukarrama and Madinah of the Qadianis is Qadian, and they cannot go to Qadian for pilgrimage as long as Pakistan exists. And Pakistan's confrontation with India, the conflict of ideologies, of realities, until that is resolved, they cannot go to their God forbid, queen i.e. Qadian. Therefore, all their theory is that Pakistan should be abolished. If you look in their books, they prophesy that, God forbid, a time will come when Pakistan will be abolished. Then we will go to Qadian. So, Sir! Breaking East Pakistan was also a part of the same conspiracy that Pakistan should be broken brick by brick, one brick should be taken out of its foundation, ideological bricks should be taken out of its ideological foundations, and they are engaged in it. And not only they are engaged in it, Honorable Speaker! but also the outside world is involved. I have that sermon of Ban Guerin, which he gave in 1967 at Sorbonne University while addressing the International Jury. He said that there are two ideological countries in the world There are two: Israel and Pakistan. And if Israel is ever in danger, if any country in the international world strongly opposes Israel, it will be Pakistan. Therefore, India's platform was used to destroy Pakistan. And you have seen the role that the international press played in the breaking of East Pakistan, Time Magazine, Newsweek, these newspapers, it is before you. The way Pakistan was defamed, the way the Pakistan Army was ruined, it is all before you. And you know that the center of the Mirzais is in Tel Aviv. The Mirzais having a center in Tel Aviv, Ben Gurion's speech in 1967 in Sorbonne that Israel is most threatened by Pakistan and that India's platform should be used to destroy Pakistan, and then the performance of Qadiani generals on the western Pakistan front, it's all before you. Mr. President! A very big superpower which has five Muslim states out of fifteen states, what theory did they introduce there to break the strength of those five Muslim states? Linguistic nationalism, cultural nationalism, so that Uzbeks and others do not unite with each other, because their focal point is Islam and the big nation and big country knows that we have produced philosophers like Shah Waliullah from this India. Mr. Chairman: I will request you now to finish. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Sir! I will take five minutes at most. Mr. Chairman: No, you will not take five minutes. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Just five minutes. Mr. Chairman, no sir! Until half past twelve. Today is Friday. Eight members are remaining. Do not be cruel to other members. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: I will just take five minutes. I am about to finish. My point will remain incomplete. Let me finish it. Mr. Chairman: This has absolutely no bearing on the point at issue. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: So, Sir! I am submitting that we produced Shah Waliullah, from here we produced Muhammad Ali Johar and Maulana Shaukat Ali, from here we produced Maulana Hasrat Mohani, from here we produced Allama Iqbal, whose philosophy is that: "Every country is our country, for it is the country of our God." His philosophy is not of geographical nationalism, his philosophy is not of linguistic nationalism, his philosophy is not of cultural nationalism, his philosophy is that we are lovers of the Prophet united and wherever there are lovers of the Prophet, that is our country. Now, Russia is afraid of this great nation that within us there are these five states, which are Muslim states. It was the sword of these five states that got them independence a thousand years ago. But today, if you look at Russia, their political leadership, their military leadership, their scientific leadership, their industrial leadership, is not in the hands of those five states but in the hands of White Russians. Sir! There are no customs barriers on ideas. You could not say that Pakistan... The thought that will emerge from within, will stop at Kashmeer inside Toor-e-Kham. There are no barriers for thoughts. Thoughts take flight, and thoughts generate more than war. They know that these people have a philosophy, they have a theory, and if the right kind of leadership emerges among them, a leadership that has fear of God and whose heart is filled with the love of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), then such leadership can arise from this country that not only in this country but in the Model East contiguous area, which is the Muslim region, here oil international diplomacy has turned the big, colorful, magnificent, shining cities of Europe into darkness, big monuments have fallen, those people are there Mr. President! There are no politicians there. There are thinkers sitting in their foreign office. They know what kind of ideas can emerge in the next hundred years, what kind of situations can arise, because geography is not permanent. I am a student of history. I have seen the geography of big countries changing. They know that if the right kind of leadership rises from here, leadership that has fear of God, that has the love of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), then this country can become a very big country, this country can also take the leadership of the Middle East, therefore to prevent all these things. for Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Yes, Ch. Barkatullah, ten minutes. Sahibzada Ahmed Raza Khan Qasuri, he has created division within you of cultural nationalism, linguistic nationalism. Mr. Chairman: Chaudhry Barkatullah. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: In the end, I will present a suggestion, sir! and I will take your leave. Mr. Chairman: You certainly may not take leave. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Sir! We should create a suggestion in our BBC, in the Pakistan Penal Code. Mr. Chairman: Section 295-A. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: Section 295-B: "Whoever professes to be a Muslim. Mr. Chairman: ....shall be guilty of high treason. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri: .....and express by word of mouth derogating from the finality of the Prophethood of Mohammad (Peace be upon him)........ Mr. Chairman: I know the source. Sahibzada Ahmad Raza Khan Qasuri:.....as expressed in the Holy Quran and Sunnah, shall be punished with death. Explanation. For the purpose of Section 295-B, finality of the Prophethood of Mohammad (peace be upon him) as expressed in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah means that the door of the Prophethood has been closed after the Holy Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) and there will be no Prophet, Nabi, Rasul, Zilli or Ummati after the Prophet. Mr. Chairman: You are worried about the door, they are saying that the window is open. Chaudhary Barkatullah! QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION Chaudhary Barkatullah: Mr. Chairman! Much has been said on this issue. I will only take two or three minutes of yours, and I don't want to say anything more than that. Mr. Chairman: I will request the honorable members to be very brief because about eight members are left and the two Sahibzadas have taken 40 minutes. Chaudhary Barkatullah: Sir! The matter that has been presented in this House, one thing is absolutely proven that these Mirzais who came here, who were Qadianis, whether they were Lahori party or the others, they themselves adopted such a stance that they declared themselves as a separate sect from the majority. So this is not a long drawn out debate. So, God willing, the other honorable members also have their views, and necessarily whatever decision will be made will be in accordance with the wishes of the majority, and God willing, all of that is about to become apparent these days. The second thing, sir! that I want to submit, this second thing is also proven that this sect of Qadianis, the circumstances in which it was formed, it is clear that this is also a self-planted sapling of the British. These people have no love or affection for religion, for Islam, and they are certainly agents of the British. Their job in the whole world is this that wherever they can harm Islam, they will leave no stone unturned in doing so. Now, sir! the question arises that if this special committee, our assembly declares them a minority, declares them non-Muslims, then at that time we have to think what their reaction will be. Like a madman, they will especially think of taking revenge on us, Pakistanis and Muslims. And as my other friends have said, and it is a fact, these Qadianis, Mirzais, are appointed in every department and 2980 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 are in almost key positions in every field, especially in the army. So it would be very necessary for our government and all of us Muslims to remove these people from these key positions, especially from Defense, Finance and Foreign Office. If we only declare them a minority, then this responsibility falls on us to protect their rights, their lives and property, all of which we must do. But until these people are removed from key positions, they can, God forbid, cause a lot of damage to Pakistan. And the biggest fear in this is that when this movement started, everyone in every city, in every village, in every neighborhood knows who is a Mirzai in our neighborhood. The villagers know who is a Mirzai in our village, Lahori or Qadiani. But when this movement started, those Mirzais who were highly authentic Mirzais, the whole world knew them, they lied that we are not Mirzais. It also happened here in the Assembly that we had a senior officer, here one of our esteemed members pointed out that he is a Mirzai, so their minister also defended him that he is not a Mirzai. I would like to share an incident. In the election, an MNA who had our party ticket was contesting the election, so people said that he is a Mirzai, we will not vote for him. He raised the Quran and said that I am not a Mirzai, I am absolutely not a Mirzai. Anyway, he won the election. After that, he spoke to Mirza Nasir about it and said, "O Hazrat! I took a false oath on the Quran in this way." He said it is permissible to save one's life and to achieve the goal. Re-pledge allegiance. So in these circumstances, all those Qadiani Mirzais are retracting, denying, and when you QADIANI ISSUE...GENERAL DISCUSSION 2981 If you declare them non-Muslim, they will never think of sympathizing with you. They will be your worst enemies, and disguised as Muslims, denying that they are Mirzais, they will infiltrate your ranks, the army, the defense, foreign affairs, and hatch all sorts of conspiracies to bring about its demise. So, in this way... Several members: Name them, name them. Chaudhary Barkatullah: Leave the name, sir. So, sir! My request is that these people, everyone knows, the government also knows, people know who are Mirzais. They should be immediately removed from key positions, otherwise, there will be no purpose in declaring them a minority. Number (2), sir! As it is in the constitution... A member: The member's point should definitely be mentioned, otherwise, it will become a matter of doubt. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: This is a matter of our privilege. Everyone will become suspicious like this. Barkatullah Sahib, tell their name. Chaudhary Barkatullah: There isn't anyone in this hall. In my opinion, none of the honorable members present here is one of them. A member: Then sir! Finish its name. Chaudhary Jahangir Ali: Either they should clarify it or these sentences should be withdrawn. Mr. Chairman: I will request the honorable members to refrain from this personal matter. Chaudhary Barkatullah: The second point is, as it is in the constitution, when we declare them a non-Muslim minority, they will have the freedom to spread their religion. But sir! 2982 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 I would like to submit that Pakistan, which is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, is an ideological state, taken in the name of Islam. In this country there are Christians, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists. They can preach their religion. But a sect that calls itself Muslim and then preaches parallel to Islam, this does not apply to them and they should also be prohibited from preaching religion at all in this country after being declared a minority in this country. Then sir! Something will be achieved from this, otherwise nothing will be achieved. Along with this, the rest of my brothers have said everything that they have created a state within a state in Rabwah, my brother Safiullah Sahib had said, he said very well, indeed it is a state within a state. It should be declared an open city, Rabwah. When it is declared an open city, then the rest of their organizations, Al-Furqan etc., will also automatically disappear. Sir! I propose that we believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was completely a liar. He lied because of the British to end Islam and Jihad. Now it is said, many of my friends have said that the Lahoris are a bit better, they do not consider him a prophet. When he himself is a liar, then how can we go to the branches of his whole tree. My submission is that both should be declared non-Muslim minorities. If Lahoris are allowed to stay, then this will be a new issue, then they will come here. No purpose will be served. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Mr. Muhammad Khan Chaudhry! Mr. Muhammad Khan Chaudhry: Mr. Chairman! My esteemed friends have said a lot on the Qadiani issue. I will not say anything more. But I will definitely say that now They should immediately be declared a non-Muslim minority according to the wishes of the public. Mr. Chairman, what should Ahmed Raza Khan Qasuri be declared? Mr. Muhammad Khan Chaudhry, may God guide him too. (Laughter). I can only pray that God guides him too. As for keeping Qadianis in key positions after declaring them a minority, it will only create more problems because these people have greatly harmed Islam. No one has caused as much damage to Islam as they have. And I will also say that if they are not declared a non-Muslim minority, then we who are present in this hall will be equally responsible for harming Islam. Therefore, I do not want to waste more time of the esteemed House and will say this (laughter). But I will definitely request that their name be included in the constitution, which some of our members say it is not appropriate to mention Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's name. This is not a strange thing because even the name of Satan is mentioned in the Holy Quran. If their name is included in the constitution and they are declared a minority, it would be better. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Mr. Muhammad Khan Chaudhry: Therefore, my proposal is that they should be immediately declared a minority according to the wishes of the public (Muslims). Mr. Chairman: What about the challenge to the jurisdiction of the Assembly? Mr. Muhammad Khan Chaudhry: Many esteemed members have already said it. As a true Muslim, I will say that the Holy Quran clearly stated fourteen hundred years ago about the Messenger of Arabia that he is the Seal of the Prophets. According to the Holy Quran... According to him, we will not accept anyone new after him or anyone who claims any kind of prophethood. And God willing, I hope that the decision of the assembly to declare Qadianis a non-Muslim minority will show in due course that it was an eloquent decision of this assembly. I will suffice with this. Amen. Mr. Chairman Malik Nematullah Khan Shinwari! Mr. Nematullah Khan Shinwari: Mr. Chairman! Many of my respected friends have spoken before me on the subject under discussion. I have not listened to the full speeches of many friends, so what I am saying now may have been said by my friends before. Anyway, on behalf of the tribal members of the Assembly, I would like to inform you, through your mediation, on behalf of 7 million tribals... Mr. Chairman: The 7 million ones are not here today. Mr. Nematullah Khan Shinwari: They came, they have left now because they are disappointed that you are not giving them a chance. They have walked out. Anyway, I and the tribal members of the National Assembly, on behalf of 7 million tribals, want to inform the esteemed members of this House, through your mediation, that the tribal people are as concerned about this issue as the entire Pakistan and the 800 million Muslims of the world are, but if I say that we are more concerned about this issue than them, it would not be wrong. Mr. Chairman! The issue of Qadianis is a challenge for the entire Islamic world and for all Muslims who believe in the finality of Prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad Rasool Allah (PBUH) at this time, and the eyes of the whole world are on the National Assembly of Pakistan at this time. As the time for the end of the debate approaches... It is getting closer, and I think today is the last day of the debate. People's concerns are increasing. They want to see what the public representatives of this land, on which a person claimed false prophethood, the public representative assembly of the zealous Muslims living on the same land, what solution it finds for this problem and what decision it makes. Mr. Chairman! Although this issue is ninety (90) years old, its sanctity will further increase our shame if we waste this opportunity even today which Allah Almighty has given us. And if today we are successful in washing away this shame and stigma and can wash the stigma from the forehead, then I think that this autonomous institution and this national government, this achievement will be at the top of all the achievements that this National Assembly and this government have done before. Mr. Chairman! If we lose this opportunity even today and we cannot make a clear decision regarding this issue, then not only will the coming generations blame us and we we will be safe from their wrath and punishment, but we will also be committing a great sin. And if we do not make this decision, then in the coming year, so many people will become Qadiani as many of our simple Muslim people have not become in the last ninety (90) years because they will understand that perhaps the Qadianis were on the right path and they have the position stated was based on truth, they are true Muslims. So in that respect, in the last ninety (90) years, as many Muslims as have not become Qadianis, as many will become in one year. Therefore, I think that our Assembly should make a very clear decision on this issue. Your Excellency! The tribal people have three special traditions that the whole world knows well. Number (1): Immense love for Islam, always ready to die for Islam. (2) Complete hatred of the British. The tribal people did not accept the obedience of the British even for a moment, while Mirza Ghulam Ahmad repeatedly urged us in his writings to accept the obedience of the British. Number (3): The tribals love Jihad. The tribals have always waged Jihad for Islam in every era. Syed Ahmad Barelvi, Shah Ismail's Jihad against the Sikhs, and the majority of the tribals have been proven. There are graves of many tribals around their shrines with inscriptions on them. So, Mr. Chairman! When the tribals read pro-British and anti-Jihad writings in the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, it is justified for them to demand that they be allowed to wage Jihad against the Qadianis. The tribals had announced this before during 1953 that we should be allowed to wage Jihad against these infidels. And even now our people demand that the tribals should be allowed to wage Jihad against the Qadianis because they have insulted Islam and the national characteristics of the tribals. Your Excellency! By the way, Mirza Nasir Ahmad recited the wrong translation of many verses of the Holy Quran during the cross-examination and we had to listen. Anyway, but I want to draw your attention to two things. Regarding Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) in the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty has clearly stated that I did not destroy him and called him to myself. He will come back to this world when the Dajjal is born in the world. Whereas the Qadiani gentlemen are telling us that Hazrat Isa (peace be upon him) has passed away and he is in Kashmir. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2987 are buried. Meaning, Christians all over the world do not know where the grave of Hazrat Isa (A.S.) is, but Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and Mirza Nasir Ahmad know that he is buried in Kashmir, buried in such and such place. The second clear thing that Mirza Nasir Ahmad said in response to the cross-examination is enough to declare him an infidel. I think those were probably the last days of the debate. In my opinion, in response to Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari Sahib's questions, the Attorney General, in his supplementary question, proved that they are absolute infidels, when Maulana Sahib recited a few verses from the Holy Quran and explained that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says that these verses were revealed to him. I thought that the way he used to give two or three interpretive explanations of the Prophet repeatedly and make different kinds of translations of a single verse, I thought that at that time also he would try to save himself and would say that he did not say it in that way and said it in this way. But Mirza Nasir Ahmad said very clearly that yes, these verses were revealed to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and other verses of this kind were also revealed to him. In the documents that we have received from the Assembly Secretariat, on pages 110 to 117, six questions and answers are recorded. If you read them carefully, it becomes clear that they themselves want to be declared a minority. When this is their wish, then why shouldn't we declare them a minority. Apart from this, I think it is useless to say anything for the Lahori party now. They have no status. They believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in the same way as other Qadiani people do. The only difference is that when their leader Muhammad Ali was not made Khalifa in 1914, he formed his own separate group, just like 2988 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 A political leader does not get the presidency of any party and he forms his own separate political party. There is absolutely no difference in this. They also believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. If we do not consider a person to be a Muslim, then it is obvious that a person who claims false prophethood cannot be a Muslim. So, how can we give him the status of a reformer, elder, saint, or a second degree? That is why I believe that there is no significant difference between the Lahore party and the Rabwah Qadiani party. All these are followers of the person about whom the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said that thirty liars would be born in my Ummah. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is one of those thirty liars, and the followers of a liar cannot be Muslims. There are many things like this in it, I am leaving out some things because of lack of time. I am presenting some suggestions. Qadianis along with the Lahore party should be declared non-Muslims. A clear explanation should be given in the constitution and their properties should be given under the control of Auqaf. The city of Rabwah should be declared an open city. Ten thousand tribesmen should be settled in the population around the city of Rabwah. We should be given land there. We do not ask for it for free, nor are we ready to buy it at the price at which Sir Zafarullah Khan and MM Ahmad gave it at the rate of five rupees per acre. You give us that land at a reasonable price. Mr. Chairman: Along with this, the first proposal that Jihad should be allowed should also be accepted. Mr. Nematullah Khan Shinwari If you declare them non-Muslims, then there is no need for Jihad. We want to live there so that Qadianis do not commit any mischief in the future. Therefore, the city of Rabwah should be declared an open city. Mr. Chairman: Mehr Ghulam Haider Bhardana QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2989 Mehr Ghulam Haider Bharwana: Mr. Speaker! This issue has been under discussion for many days and testimonies are also being given, although it was not that necessary. A Muslim does not need to think further about any issue that is clearly written in the Holy Quran and Hadith Sharif. It is clearly stated in the Holy Quran and Hadith Sharif that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the last prophet. This means that no prophet can come after him. It is clearly evident from their books, in many books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, it is written that he calls himself a prophet. Anyone, whether it is Ghulam Ahmad or someone else, who uses such words is a Kafir and Murtad (apostate). There is no need to think further about it? His followers and believers are also Kafirs and Murtads. Therefore, besides thinking further about this, 37 of us have submitted resolutions. I strongly urge this House to pass it unanimously. Mr. Chairman: Maulvi Nematullah. Maulvi Nematullah: Mr. Speaker! Pakistan was created in the name of Islam and it was invented through Islamic ideology. All sects of Pakistan agree on what the meaning of the establishment of Pakistan is: La ilaha illallah. There have been objections against the scholars in front of you and in this House, both sitting on this side and sitting on that side, that they are different from each other and do not present the meaning of Islam correctly. O servants of God! What are you doing? Muslims agree that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam. Those who created Pakistan are said to be separatists and cases should be filed against them. If someone says about them that they were separatists, people get excited. 2990 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 I ask this and want to know whether the people who created Pakistan in the name of Islam, did they take these meanings of Pakistan or not? What are the meanings of Islam? What interpretation are they giving to Islam? They were the leading people, they were MA and lawyers. What did those leading people mean by it? The thing is that the scholars are helpless, that is why everyone objects to it. Ghulam Rasool Tarar Sahib has said that the scholars have been saying from the beginning that these are thieves, robbers, these are apostates, these are the ones who are spoiling Pakistan, these are the ones who are destroying Pakistan. But they did not listen to the scholars. Only Haji Sahib has said this in this House and has spoken the truth. May Allah reward him. He has said that the scholars were against it from the beginning and used to say that these are robbers, these are thieves, these are apostates, these are the destroyers of Pakistan. In reality, they have destroyed East Pakistan. Because of them, five thousand square miles of West Pakistan was taken in the war. We were disgraced all over the world and it was said that Pakistan was defeated. We were disgraced because of the Qadianis. If we do not make Qadiani officers, do not make generals, Qadianis are big spies, then I say with great certainty, if you want, I swear that the Hindu could never defeat Pakistan. If these people were not there, we would not be disgraced. We Afghans have been disgraced. A Muslim has nothing to fear. What is there to fear? Some people here are saying that if we declare the Qadiani people as infidels or declare them as a minority, then Mr. Speaker, these difficulties will arise, many troubles will arise. A Muslim has nothing to fear. (Persian poems were read) Allah Almighty has given the Muslim great power. He does not fear anyone except Allah Almighty. Britain will be against us, Russia will be against us. There is no benefit in being afraid of it. This fear has destroyed you. This fear has ruined you. For God's sake, this is the last chance. Mr. Speaker! Chaudhry Fazal Elahi, who was a figure, had said that this is the last warning that has been given to the Muslim. Our Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto had said on this chair that look, we will appear before Allah Almighty, we have to show our faces to Allah. This is against the law of God. In what way is it being violated? Today we can see in this assembly Chaudhry Muhammad Iqbal is not here, Amir Muhammad Khan is not here. They have passed away to Allah. They will appear before Allah Almighty. They will be accountable there for what they did in their representation. Don't mind, you will also be asked what service you have done for Islam. Mr. Speaker! Qadianis are infidels. They themselves have said it, they have clearly called Ghulam Ahmad absolutely a prophet and messenger, and they regularly consider Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet. Those who deny his prophethood are illegitimate, bastards. Mr. Chairman, that is why we are sitting here. You could not solve this issue in 90 years, now the assembly will solve it. Maulvi Nematullah: Mr. Speaker! My point is that a population of 55,000 is so brave, so powerful, so strong that they can issue a fatwa on a population of six crore. We, a population of six crore, cannot issue a fatwa against them that they are a minority, they are infidels. And those positions that they have in Pakistan should be terminated from those positions. gone. Can't we do this? Eliminate them from the big posts. Remove them from the big posts. Sir! I will say one thing. Our Prime Minister and our government removed 2200 officers, including generals and colonels and big officers. What have they done to harm Pakistan? They haven't spoiled anything. If we remove the leading people in this way, what can they do to spoil us? When Allah Almighty is with us and the complete mercy of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) is with us. I propose that I support this resolution. For the sake of God, for the sake of the Messenger, for the sake of religion, for the sake of Islam, for the sake of the Hereafter, this is the last time, this is the last chance. Declare him an apostate, declare him a minority, and don't be afraid of how we bring the name of Qadiani. Sir! When you can take the name of Sikh in the constitution, when you can take the name of Christian in the constitution, when you can take the name of Buddha in the constitution, what is the harm if a small Qadiani is written with it? That is why I support this resolution and I, Sir! I strongly recommend that this resolution be approved and that they be declared a minority. Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Malik Muhammad Sadiq! Allah Malik Muhammad Sadiq: In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All praises be to Allah Pak and blessings and peace be upon Muhammad Arabi only, who came to earth as a blessing to the worlds. Sir! At this time when the Ahmadi issue has entered a decisive stage, whatever I say is so that it may be properly known why Muslims demand that Ahmadis be declared a minority. This is not a matter of religious mania but it is the demand of reason, logic and circumstances that this should be done. The representatives of Ahmadi, Lahori and Rabwah Jamaat have with great cunning has tried to avoid the issue by giving vague statements in front of the entire house, But I want to request you, in the light of the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, what did Mirza Sahib say in his writings before repeatedly claiming to be a prophet. From his previous thoughts, you can also guess what Mirza Sahib really was. He says: "Can such an unlucky wretch who claims prophethood and messengership, the Holy Quran Can he believe in it? And does the person who believes in the Holy Quran? But believes that the Messenger of Allah and Khatam-un-Nabiyeen is the word of God, can he say that I am A messenger and prophet after Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH)." (Anjam Atham, p. 27, footnote, written by Mirza Sahib) Secondly, he says: When is it permissible for me to claim prophethood and leave Islam and Join the group of infidels." (Mamat-ul-Bushra, p. 96, written by Mirza Sahib) Number three "O people! Do not become enemies of the Quran and do not claim new prophethood after the Seal of the Prophets. Be ashamed of that God before whom you will be presented." (Heavenly Decision, p. 25) After these above writings, Mirza Sahib became a prophet and, according to him, out of the circle Out of Islam. Mr. Chairman: It has all been decided in the Assembly that he himself became a prophet. Move on. Malik Muhammad Sadiq, in any case, he presented the issue of re-incarnation. That It is a matter of Magi and Hindus. Mr. Chairman: All these matters have been decided. Almost the whole of the Assembly is of the unanimous view about all these matters. Mr. Malik Muhammad Sadiq, sir! If I may briefly submit, I have two or three opinions. Should Ahmadis be declared a non-Muslim minority? Their religion should be named Mirzaism and Qadianism so that the Islamic Ummah has no connection with them, and the Muslims of the world can know that they follow a separate religion. Thirdly, all educational institutions under the auspices of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya should be nationalized. Fourthly, the identity cards of the Mirzais should be amended. In the religion section, they should be written as Mirzai or Qadiani. A committee should be formed to scrutinize all their literature. Wherever beliefs contrary to Islam are found, they should be removed, and such un-Islamic publications should be banned in the future. Sir, I would also like to briefly submit something about the constitution. When the constitution was being made, there were some amendments regarding the oath of the President and Prime Minister. At that time, some gentlemen had said about the President and Prime Minister's oath that after "Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the last Prophet," Khatam-un-Nabiyeen should be added, but this House rejected that amendment, but on seeing the Urdu version, it is revealed that the amendment is correctly present, and Khatam-un-Nabiyeen is recorded in the constitution. So, this should also be considered so that this religious issue of Muslims can be resolved and Muslims can be allowed to live in peace and tranquility. Sir, I conclude with these words. Mr. Chairman, Maulana Sadr-ush-Shaheed! How much longer will a member sit? Mr. Chairman, we will sit for another ten minutes, and the rest will be done in the evening. QADIAN ISSUE_GENERAL DISCUSSION 20495 We will take it up in the evening. Those members who have accepted some invitation for going somewhere may go, if they like, and they can come to the House, if they like, because today is the last evening and we have to finalize it. Under no circumstances can I say that. Sir! We will not have a session in the evening, and some members say that we were not allowed to speak, and the Attorney General will speak in the evening. I am grateful to you. This the last night and the last day. Mian Muhammad Ataullah: Hold the session at five o'clock. Mr. Chairman: If you say so, we will do it at four o'clock. If you say so, Friday prayers will be offered here in the Assembly, you lead. Maulana Sadr al-Shahid. Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Make it last night, don't have last dinner. (Taqi) Maulana Sadr al-Shahid: Mr. Chairman! The issue that is before the House has been going on for almost a month and a half, and this issue is completely clear and clean in every aspect, both politically and religiously. I will try to present some such incidents before the House through you, which in my opinion are probably new. And may the Lord of the Worlds grant the House the grace to listen carefully. I will try to bring a lot of information in a short time. I was submitting that this issue has become clear and obvious in every aspect, both politically and religiously, and why not, the issue on which we have been trying to establish and listen to statements and arguments and all kinds of arguments here for a month and a half. I am amazed at one thing and I am expressing this amazement before you and the contempt that 2996 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 I am also presenting some answers that I have devised in my mind. I am surprised that we have been sitting here in the House for a year and a half. In this House, religious issues have also come up, political issues, national issues, issues of national unity, and issues of national development have also come up. But as far as I can remember, all the members of the House, both sides, right and left, are not in agreement on any issue, except for this one issue that is now present. This agreement has surprised me, why has there been agreement on this issue in this House in this way? No one has raised their voice against this issue. This is a matter of the public, and no one has raised their voice here against the wishes of the public. No one has done this. This thing has become a cause of amazement for me, and it has put me in amazement. But along with this, I have also understood the answer to why we have not agreed on any issue and are all in agreement on this issue. I only understand this agreement as the glory of Muhammad (PBUH) and a miracle of the religion of Islam, which is revolving in all sciences. In the Hadith also, the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said (Arabic). The hearts of all servants are in the two fingers of Allah, the Lord of the Worlds and the Most Merciful; He turns them as He wills. It is the grace and mercy of Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. We are very sinful. Those who are sitting here are very wicked, black-hearted, all are sinners. We admit, we confess. But Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, with the blessing of just one word that we read and believe in and have faith in, that there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, even though how many sinners we are sitting here, but Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, with the blessing of just one word that we sometimes read, that there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and according to it is our belief. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 2997 And (we have) faith, by the grace and blessings of Allah, Lord of the Worlds, we have been brought together in zeal on one platform, regarding the blessings of the dignity of Muhammad ﷺ, regarding the honor of Muhammad ﷺ. As far as I understand, the reason for this unity is this, and I congratulate this House that you people, as far as I know, you people have faith. Despite the fact that we are sinners, wrongdoers, but God willing, it is our belief and faith that Allah, Lord of the Worlds, because of the unity in this matter, I understand that some faith is left in us, we are not faithless. Praise be to Allah, may Allah protect this faith. Along with this, I request and beseech the entire House through you that, for God's sake, make this unity a precedent for other issues as well. I appeal from this side as well and from that side as well that in national issues, the unity and integrity of the country, and the development of the country and national issues, we should at least show the same way of unity as we have done in this matter. I want to answer a query in one issue. I think some journals have come to the service of all the members, some booklets have come before. In one book it is also written that Imam Abu Hanifa has issued a fatwa, and that fatwa is that Imam Abu Hanifa has said that if a person claims prophethood after Muhammad ﷺ, then if another person asks him for a miracle, asks for proofs, that show me a miracle about your prophethood, then this seeker, the one who is asking, also becomes a sinner or an infidel. Well, this is an example, absolutely correct. You people must have read it in the books here. Here also some gentlemen, some people have 2998 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 16th Sept., 1974 Having taken some impression, as I have heard, from this side as well as from that side, this issue has come up here that it should not have happened that we presented him and questioned him, took his statement, cross-examined him, it should not have happened here. I am answering according to my opinion and knowledge that we did not ask them for arguments about what the proofs of your prophethood are. We did not have a prophet sitting in front of us. No one here claimed prophethood. We had to find out about the beliefs of that dead person, who knows, he was heard in the bathroom, what your belief is. What is their claim about him and what is their belief. We did not ask for arguments and miracles to prove their claim and belief here. Therefore, we do not come into this issue. This is people's mistake. We asked them whether they had claimed prophethood. At that time they admitted that they had. After that, these people were asked what your belief is about them. Some said in clear words that we consider him a prophet, whether he is an ummati, or a buruzi, or a zilli. These are interpretations. Everyone makes interpretations when they are forced into a situation. But the whole House has taken the impression from them, in my opinion, that he is speaking wrong, he is lying. After it became clear that they themselves admitted, both almost admitted that they had claimed prophethood, and this expression of their own belief has been made here in the House that they have a claim of prophethood, a belief of prophethood about him, whether it is of buruz, or linguistic, or metaphorical, or anti, in any case, they have a belief of prophethood about him. So, this issue became very clear before the House that they have claimed prophethood. what it was and they consider him a prophet. So it became known that the matter is quite clear. So to the world, We do not present any further proof after this, that we should consider it as proof, that they are infidels or not. And that matter is absolutely clear. We wanted to ask them about their beliefs. The second thing I want to submit is that it has also been heard from some people here that the scholars have been very lax, have not done any work. Mr. Chairman: Leave this. Maulana Sadr-ush-Shaheed: No, the purpose of my saying is this. Mr. Chairman: There has been no laxity at all. Maulana Sadr-ush-Shaheed: There is laxity. Anyway, but I am saying this with confidence that it is the blessing of the scholars, it is the blessing of the scholars, it is their efforts and their endeavors that without any money, without the cooperation of the government... Mr. Chairman: Otherwise, they do not have an ounce of faith! (Were) Maulana Sadr-ush-Shaheed: No, I am answering with courtesy, not that I am taunting anyone. They have worked hard, and the result of their hard work, God willing, has come out and will come out. Now after this, in the end, I think I have taken enough of your time. In the end, I want to present a suggestion, and that is, if this issue Even now, if we decide by being vague, then in my opinion, this issue will be dangerous for us too, and for Islam too, and for our generation too. Now when the issue has been presented in the House, in your great House, in this court, even now if this issue is not completely clear and obvious. Mr. Chairman: God willing, a decision will be made. Maulana Sadar Al-Shaheed: Then this will be dangerous for our country and for Islam as well. Now I want to present a proposal that this is my proposal and I am asking the House that Article 106 in the Constitution mentions in clause number (3) that the seats given to minorities in the provincial assemblies in Pakistan, one for NWFP, one for Balochistan, three for Punjab, two for Sindh, mention minorities there. Hindu, Sikh, Parsi, Buddhist, so and so. So my suggestion is that the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani or Lahori party should be included in this minority, through you I want all the members of the house to agree with this suggestion, this issue will be cleared, they will also be included in their list. So I want to present this suggestion and get approval from the House whether you agree with me in this or not? Voices: Yes. Maulana Sadar Al-Shaheed: Do you agree, is it approved by you? Voices: Yes. Maulana Sadar Al-Shaheed: May Allah reward you, May Allah reward you. Mr. Chairman: This is the method of "doong" which is not written. (Laughter) Maulana Sadar Al-Shaheed: We will get the reward. Mr. Chairman: Voting is done through the Speaker (laughter) one cannot gather a crowd themselves. Maulana Sadr-ush-Shaheed: Thank you, sir. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Okay, according to the list, Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui and Mr. Muhammad Sardar Khan are remaining. A member: Farooqui Sahib has already spoken. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui also has to speak, if you say so. Mr. Chairman: Okay, Farooqui Sahib has spoken. The remaining is Hakim Muhammad Sardar Khan Sahib. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Mir Sahib! No, this issue is obvious. I don't think anyone else is remaining. In the evening, the Attorney General Sahib will speak for at least two hours. And then Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari Sahib will speak. And then the Minister of Law Sahib will also speak on this issue in the evening. So, we will meet again at half-past five in the evening and work until nine, ten, eleven, twelve o'clock so that the discussion can be completed and the recommendations can also be compiled. Therefore, please bring your lunch with you! The Special Committee adjourned for lunch break to re-assembled at 5:30 p.m. The Special Committee re-assembled after lunch break, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. Mr. Chairman: Chaudhry Shafaat Khan Chauhan! Chaudhry Shafaat Khan Chauhan: Mr. Chairman! The issue of Mirzaism is a century-old issue. Mr. Chairman: Did you find out today that there is a century-old problem? Chaudhry Shafaat Khan Chauhan: No, I have known about it for almost fifty years. The establishment of Pakistan took place in the name of Islam. The Muslims of India voted, then Pakistan was established, although the Muslim League government that established Pakistan in the name of Islam was also unable to solve this problem. After that, different parties ruled this country. Until 1958, but they were also unable to solve this problem, although all of them were Muslims just like those who live in Pakistan now. After that, when the era of dictatorship came, they also had more powers. Despite this, this problem was not solved even during the martial law period. After that, in 19 when the People's Party government came to this country under the leadership of Quaid-e-Awam, many problems came to the fore which were inherited. Among them, the first thing Quaid-e-Awam did with the cooperation of his majority party and the rest of the country was to restore the lost dignity of the Muslim world. He called a Summit to create unity among Islamic countries, which is a great achievement in the series of Islamic unity. After that, this century-old problem is also being solved today with the cooperation of Quaid-e-Awam, its majority party, other supporting parties and then the public, and I hope that this problem will be solved forever according to the wishes of the people and the wishes of the Muslims. In this regard, I consider it necessary to make a submission here. There is no doubt that Mirza was not a liar and it has been proven in this House. His followers QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION I think we will be able to decide to declare them a minority, but I would like to submit one thing in this regard, that those few, rather 113 so-called fatwa-issuing scholars who had declared the People's Party and its leader as infidels in 1970. Mr. Chairman: Not allowed. Chaudhary Shafaat Khan Chauhan: They are also liars. Absolutely not. Mr. Chairman: Not allowed, not allowed. Chaudhary Shafaat Khan Chauhan: At least I will submit one thing. Mr. Chairman: At least keep one day in mind. This politics will continue. Chaudhary Shafaat Khan Chauhan: Along with this, I would like to submit that, The unity that exists among Muslims today, at least in the matter of fatwas, a restriction should also be imposed in the constitution that no Muslim should declare any sect as infidel. Mr. Chairman: If such speeches are made, then there will be no unity. Chaudhary Shafaat Khan Chauhan: As far as this current issue is concerned... (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. That's all. Hakim Muhammad Sardar Khan! (Not present) Mian Muhammad Attaullah: Sir! Attorney General. Mr. Chairman: Yes, he is coming now. Attorney-General will complete his arguments. A Member: What is tomorrow's program? 3004 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 Mr. Chairman, please also tell us about tomorrow's program. You have heard it on the radio, but the thing is that when we adjourned the House, the parleys are going on between the Prime Minister and the others. The meeting is going on in the chamber even now. A member: What was on the radio? Mr. Chairman: It was on the radio that the Special Committee will meet tomorrow at 2:30 PM. The Assembly will be at 4:30 PM and then the Senate will meet. But we have to finalise it and then we will announce it in the House. Now I will request the Attorney-General to resume the arguments which were .len over yesterday. All the other members have spoken, only Hakim Mohammad Sardar Sahib wanted to speak, he is not here. I will request the honourable members to be attentive now. I request those members who want to talk, they can go to the lobby. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney-General of Pakistan): Mr. Chairman, Sir, when I was making submissions yesterday on the evidence that has come before the Special Committee, I submitted, while discussing the career of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, that there were three stages in his religious career. The first stage was when he was like all other Muslim leaders, a propagandist of Islam. His views on the concept of 'Khatm-e-Nabuwwat' were similar to those held by others. Then comes the next stage when he changed his views and founded an organisation and started receiving oath of discipleship and so on. It was in 1889 that the second stage comes. After that I was submitting that in the course of this stage what his views were, and why those views were expressed and a new interpretation of the concept of *Khatm-e-Nabuwwat' was given, according to which many prophets will come from time to time as the world needs prophets to re-interpret the Message of Allah given to Prophet Muhammad. QADIANI ISSUE__GENERAL DISCUSSION (At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Dr. Mrs. Ashraf Khatoon Abbasi) 3005 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Madam, at this stage, I submitted that the second Caliph of Ahmadis or Qadianis had given reasons for which this series of prophets will not stop, and I have also submitted that although they ostensibly and apparently gave a very rational reason for this, but still when we ask them whether there was any other prophet before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, they say 'No'; when questioned as to whether any other prophet is going to come after him, they say 'No'; and ultimately it comes to this that 'Khatimun Nabiyyeen', according to them, is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. I will now go further and submit before the Committee as to what was the proof that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was 'Masih-e- Mauood' according to the Ahmadis. They say that he was to appear in a period of history when the means of communications would change and there would be earthquakes, there would be wars, and so forth, the donkey and the camel would be replaced by more efficient means of communication, and they say all these signs which were mentioned in the old books, apply to the age of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and further they say, and I will read out from the book called "Ahmadiyyat or the True Islam" in support of their contention, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was that Promised Messiah. I quote from this book, page 20: "Similarly, it was foretold that the Promised One would suffer from two maladies, one in the upper part of his body and the other in the lower, that the hair of his head would be straight, that he would be wheat coloured, that he would slightly stammer in his speech, that he would belong to a family of farmers, that, while talking, he would occasionally strike his hand against his thigh, that he would appear in a village named Kada, and that he would combine in himself the offices of the Messiah and the Mahdi. And so it has turned out to be. Ahmad, the Promised Messiah, suffered from vertigo and diabetes; he had straight hair, was wheat-coloured, and occasionally faltered in his speech. He had the habit of striking his hand against his thigh while giving a discourse, 3006 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 and belonged to a family of landowners. He was a native of Kadian or Kade as Qadian is popularly called. In short, when we consider all these prophecies collectively, we find that they apply to no age but to the present, and to no person but to person but to Ahmad (on whom be peace); and it appears that the present age is clearly the age of the advent of the Promised One whose appearance was foretold by the former prophets, and that Ahmad alone is the Promised One whose advent had been eagerly awaited for centuries." This is the proof or the argument in support of his being a Messiah. I do not want to comment on this. The Committee can judge for itself whether, it applies only to him or could have applied to hundreds and thousands of people living in this age. Now I come to the third stage of his religious career. Here he claims to be a full-fledged prophet, not a prophet of a subordinate or a temporary kind. Then we find gradually in this period that from a full-fledged prophet, although he goes on saying that he is an ‘Umati prophet, he claims superiority first over Hazrat Essa then over all other prophets and then he claims equality with the Holy Prophet of Islam, (Peace be upon him) and ultimately he claims, nauzubillah, superiority over the Holy prophet of Islam as well. This is in short his religious career. I will now just very briefly draw the attention of the Committee to some of those citations in support of what I have said just now. I have already cited yesterday when he said: "without prophets you cannot do; you have to have a prophet". "How can you obtain blessings without prophets and messengers?" And then he says, and here also I think the basis for his claim to be tree only prophet after Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) is found: "The amount of blessings that the saints, abdal, and aqtab who have passed away from this ummah before me have not been given a large share of this blessing. Therefore, I alone have been chosen to receive the name of prophet, and no other people are worthy of this name." So, this applies to past and future and this is again from “Haqiqatul Wahi published in 'Roohani Khazain', volume 22, page 406 and page 407. During this stage he also says: "I am a messenger and a prophet, meaning that by virtue of perfect excellence, I am that mirror in which the Muhammadi form and the complete reflection of Muhammad's prophethood are present." And then he says: "Allah Almighty made Hazrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the خاتم العین, meaning that He gave you the seal for bestowing perfection, which was never given to any other prophet. Because of this, your name was designated as خاتم النبین, meaning that you bestowed prophethood on the perfections of your followers, and your spiritual attention is a prophet-maker, and this power was not given to any other prophet.” "The true God is the One who sent His Messenger to Qadian." This is also the stage when he, as I have already submitted said: Now, the interesting stage comes when he claims to have the attributes of all the prophets in him and here he says, and this I quote again from 'Brahin Panjum³, ‘Roohani Khazain', volume 21, pages 117-118: "In this era, God desired that the examples of all the righteous, truthful, and holy prophets who have passed should be manifested in the being of one person, so that person is me. In this way, the examples of the wicked have also been manifested in this era. Whether it is Pharaoh or the Jews who crucified Jesus, or Abu Jahl, the examples of all are present at this time." So, here he says that the best and the finest attributes of all the Prophets of Allah were combined and God wanted that they should be shown through one person and that he was that person. This is also the stage when he says: "How can I reject the continuous revelation of God for thirty years? I believe in His holy revelation in the same way that I believe in all the revelations that have come before me." I swear by God that I believe in these revelations in the same way that I believe in the Holy Quran and other books of God. And just as I know for sure and definitively that the Holy Quran is the word of God Almighty, in the same way I know this word that is revealed to me. Apart from this, also understand what Sharia is. The one who, through their revelation, explains a few commands and prohibitions and establishes a law for their followers is the holder of Sharia. Therefore, according to this definition, our opponents are also liable because in my revelation, there are commands and prohibitions as well." Here he says that, well, "in my 3, there is also the law, the dos and don'ts" which Moses' law contained." That his sheep turned into wolves." Now, Sir, literally, it means the Seal of the Prophets. By the Seal of the Prophets, Muslims generally, throughout 1400 years, have meant that the Prophet of Islam was the last of the Prophets, the Message of Allah was delivered, finalized completely, finalized, sealed and delivered, and therefore the Message was complete and he was the last prophet, and the wisdom that appeared is that as mankind had matured, as mankind has matured mentally as well as physically, Allah thought that the final Message should be given to them, the code of conduct should be given to them, which should be applicable to all ages because the basic human needs, problems, difficulties are the same although conditions change and their character changes. Allah delivered his final Message through His final Prophet. He said nobody can ever add anything to it or detract anything from it or modify it or change it now. This was the concept of or. It simply meant that, the doors of revelation are closed for future. Now, Sir, what is the philosophy, what is the wisdom of this concept, because we know what is meant when we say, Muslims interpret it, but the authoritative interpretation for Muslims could only come from the Holy Prophet himself, he interpreted it by saying FM & 1 (after me there shall be no Prophet) and that interpretation is binding on every Musalman, and no school of thought has disputed the authenticity of this Hadis that he was the last Prophet as he said himself. But, Sir, when you look at the wisdom, this becomes clearer when we find that during his last illness, the Holy Prophet! told his followers that while he was with them, they should listen to him and obey him. After he was gone from this world, then they should, in his words, "Hold on fast to the Quran and whatever is forbidden there should be considered forbidden and whatever is permissible therein should be considered permissible for you". Sir, we have not appreciated the beauty and the wisdom of this lesson. As I submitted, mankind had matured, mentally man was mature, the Message was complete. Now, when the Holy Prophet uttered these words, what were the conditions in this world, what were the circumstances? Fourteen hundred years ago, we find rulers, kings, tribal chiefs, and that was the stage of society that whatever they said was law, the word of ruler was law, the word of king was law; there was no other law known to mankind. Here in this simile Message, for the first time, mankind has been given the concept of rule of law and the Prophet said; after him you do not have to obey anybody. You only obey Allah and his Message, Allah and his QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 3011 Prophet. Hold on fast to Quran, whatever is forbidden therein, that is forbidden for you, whatever is permissible therein, that is permissible for you; and there lies the beauty that the concept of rule of law appeared for the first time. This is, in my humble opinion, emancipation proclamation for mankind that you will no longer be governed by kings and their words, or by dictators or rulers. You will be governed by law, here is the law, and if you will carefully study the history, what do we find? We find that the moment Prophet passes away, is elected. What is his inaugural address? What does he say? Here is the message, he says, "obey me so long as I obey Allah and his Prophet. If I revolt against Allah and his Prophet, you are not obliged to obey me." This is the rule of law; the concept of rule of law was there. That is why, I think, the Muslim society agitated when another person appeared and said that in future "I would give you rulings, I will receive divine messages and this shall be binding on you, my divine revelations". That was the main reason why Muslim society agitated. Another aspect, I hope, I am correct in explaining it, this was emancipation of thought. Muslims were free to think for themselves and interpret the Holy Quran for themselves. Nobody can give them a binding ruling on any provision and say this is binding on you. As Allama Iqbal said, "After the Holy Prophet there shall be no surrender in spiritual matter to any other individual". So, this was meant to be a charter of freedom to think for yourself. There is no doubt, Sir, that we got the freedom of interpretation, of course, that freedom of interpretation was limited within the frontiers of the cardinal principles of Islam. For instance, the first principle was of that is, Unity and Oneness of Allah. So, the interpretation cannot challenge that. The second principle was the principle of finality of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). That could not be challenged; and so the other cardinal principles but within those frontiers you were free to interpret the way you like, the way you thought was correct. There was no doubt that because of this freedom of interpretation we got divided in many sects, in many ‘firqas' but that also leads to the synthetic character of Islam and that also shows the democratic process. In this regard I will respectfully draw your attention to what Allama Iqbal says about these 'firqas' 3012 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept, 1974 and their calling each other 'Kafir'. Sir, I read; this comes from the controversy which was raised at the time when Pandit Jawaharlal Nahru, who said something about Ahmadis and Allama Iqbal got into this controversy. So, I will read some passage from Allama Iqbal's reply and what he wrote to "The Statesman" paper. Here he says: "The idea of finality should not be taken to suggest that the ultimate fate of life is complete displacement of emotion by reason. Such a thing; is neither possible nor desirable. The intellectual value of the idea is that it tends to create an independent critical attitude towards mystic experience by generating the belief that personal authority claiming a super-natural origin, has come to an end in the history of mankind. This kind of belief is a psychological force which inhibits the growth of such authority. The function of the idea is to open up fresh vistas of knowledge in the domain of man's inner experience." Then, again, with reference to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Allama Iqbal continues to say: "The opening sentence clearly shows that a saint in the psychological sense of the word or men of saintly character will always appear; whether Mirza Sahib belonged to this category or not is a separate question. Indeed as long as this spiritual capacity of mankind endures, they will rise among all nations and countries in order to show better the ideal of life to man. To hold otherwise would be to fly in the face of human experience. The only difference is that the modern man has a right to critical examination of their mystic experiences. The finality of prophethood means among other things that all personal authority in religious life, denial of which involves damnation, has come to an end.” So, in future, Sir, no one individual will come and say, "I have received divine revelation and this is the message of God and naturally binding on you.” The only thing binding is what has already come in the holy Quran. Then he further says, I quote Allama Iqbal: QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 3013 "The simple Faith of Muhammad (peace be upon him) is based on two propositions - that God is one and Muhammad is the last of the line of those holy men who have appeared from time to time in all countries and in all ages to guide mankind to the right ways of living. If, as some Christian writer thinks, a dogma must be defined as an ultra rational proposition which, for the purpose of securing religious solidarity must be assented to without any understanding of the meta-physical import, then these two simple propositions of Islam cannot be described even as dogmas; for both of them are supported by the experience of mankind and are fairly amenable to rational argument." Then, Sir, as I submitted with regard to the allegations of 'Kufr' or heresy of different 'firqas' against each other. He says:- "The question of heresy which needs the verdict whether the author of it is within or without the fold, can arise in the case of religious society founded on such simple proposition, only when the heretic rejects both or either of these propositions". One becomes a 'Kafir', according to Allma Igbal, if he rejects either of these cardinal principles i.e. Tauheed or the concept of Khatm-i-Nabuwwat and "since the phenomenon of the kind of heresy which affects the boundaries on Islam has been rare in the history of Islam, the feelings of every Muslim are naturally intense when revolt of this rind arises. This is why the feelings of Muslims in Iran were so intense against the 'Bahais'. That is why the feelings of Indian Muslims are so intense against the Qadianis." I was just explaining why there was sharp reaction against Mirza Sahib's claim. Now, Sir, I will cite one more quotation from Allama Iqbal on this point and then I will proceed with my submissions. On the question of heresy, on the question of calling each other 'Kafir', A member: It is time for Maghrib prayers. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will just read this: "It is true that mutual accusations of heresy for differences in minor points of law of theology among Muslim religious sects 3014 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN September 16, 1974 have been rather common. In this indiscriminate use of the word 'Kufr' both for minor theological points of differences as well as for the extreme cases of heresy which involve ex-communication of the heretic, some present-day educated Muslims who possess practically no knowledge of the history of Muslim theological dispute see a sign of social and political disintegration of the Muslim community. This, however, is an entirely wrong notion. The history of Muslim theology shows that mutual accusation of heresy on minor points of differences has, far from working as a disruptive force, actually given impetus to synthetic theological thought. Then he quotes some European professor Hurgrounje and he says and I quote: "When we read the history of development of Muhammadan law, we find that, on the one hand the doctors of every age, on the slightest stimulus, condemn one another to the point of mutual accusations of heresy and, on the other hand, the very same people with greater and greater unity of purpose try to reconcile similar quarrels of their predecessors." The Allama continues: "The student of Muslim theology knows that among Muslim legalists this kind of heresy is technically known as 'heresy below heresy', i.e., the kind of heresy which does not involve ex-communication of the culprit." While on this point, Sir, if I am not taxing the Committee too much, I think it will be relevant to read yet another passage of Iqbal because it was stated by Mirza Nasir Ahmad that if you start any action against the Qadianis or Ahmadis, then next you will take action against Shias or the Agha Khanis and other sects. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru had raised a similar issue. He said, "if you condemn Qadianis that they are not Muslims then you will have to condemn the Agha Khanis also." No better reply can be given by me but to quote Allama Iqbal. On this point also, Sir, if you permit me I will read what he said. He says: One word about His Highness the Agha Khan. What has led Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru to attack the Agha Khan, it is difficult for me to discover. Perhaps he thinks that the Qadianis and Ismailis fall under the same category. He is obviously not aware that however the theological interpretation of the Ismailis may err, they believe in the basic principle of Islam. It is true that they believe in a perpetual Imamate, but the Imam according to them is not the recipient of divine revelation. He is only the expounder of law. It is only the other day (vide the "Star" of Allahabad, March 12, 1934) His Highness the Agha Khan addressed his followers as follows: "Bear witness that Allah is One, Mohammad is the Prophet of Allah, Quran is the Book of Allah, Ka'aba is the Qibla of all. You are Muslims, and should live with Muslims, Greet Muslims with 'Assalam-o-Alaikum', Give your children Islamic names, pray with Muslim congregations in mosques, keep fast regularly, solemnize your marriages under the Islamic rule of 'Nikah'. Treat all Muslims as your brothers." Then Allama adds: "It is for Pandit Nehru now to decide whether the Aga Khan represents the solidarity of Islam or not." Sir, I will conclude this part now because I understand that they want to say.... Madam Acting Chairman: Yes, it is time for Maghrib prayers. Mr. Yahya Bukhtiar: So I will resume after that. Madam Acting Chairman: So we will meet at 7:15 pm. The House Committee stands adjourned for Maghrib prayers. (The Special Committee adjourned for Maghrib Prayers to meet at 7:15p.m.) (The Special Committee reassembled after Maghrib prayers, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.) Mr. Chairman: Just two minutes; let the members come. If we are able to conclude this debate, Attorney-Generals arguments plus any honorable Member who wants to speak, then we will finish this night, otherwise we will meet tomorrow morning. If something is left over this night then we will meet at 2:30 p.m, as Committee of the Whole House, and then at 4:30 p.m. We will meet as National Assembly. That has been agreed, and that tomorrow we will decide. Just wait for less than 24 hours. Tomorrow we will assemble at 4:30 p.m. as National Assembly. The passes shall be issued only to the family members of the MNAs because of the position. I hope the members will not take it ill, and inside the Assembly premises the entry will be regulated strictly, even in cafeteria and everywhere else. Inside Gates No.3 and 4, nobody will be allowed to enter unless he holds a valid pass which will be issued only to the family members and nobody else for tomorrow at 4:30. (Pause) Mr. Chairman: I am sorry for that. No authority has a right to regulate the entry of the members inside the premises. It was brought to my notice. I am sorry for that. The members will be allowed. Because of the precautionary measures we have to do it. Yes Mr. Attorney-General, Now we should start. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman Sir, ...... Mr. Chairman: I am sorry, I have been going there. I wanted to hear your arguments. For the first time I have closed my chamber also. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Well, Sir, I was making a submission about Muslim concept of Khatm-e- Nabuwwat or the meaning of Khatimun Nabiyyean. And I was submitting that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had claimed that he was a prophet first of the subordinate ...kind, i.e., Ummati, then he claimed to be a prophet with his own law, and I submitted that he said that in his revelations there were commandments, there was "Amar-o-Nahi." It is not only that he said it, but even his son Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad also said in his book 'Ahmadiyyat or True Islam' that Mirza Sahib had left a complete code of instructions for his followers. He says, I may read from page 26 of the book: "As I shall presently show he has left us such a complete code of instructions and rules of conduct, that all sensible persons will be bound to admit that by acting on them the objects of his advent, as above stated, can be easily and fully achieved." Now Sir, this was the thing. Every Musalman thought that a complete code of conduct for life was the Holy Quran for them. Here is another prophet who comes, who appears and claims to be an Ummati Nabi without his own laws and then he leaves the code of conduct for his followers. As I submitted, Sir, then he goes on to claim superiority. I do not want to go into details. The honorable members heard the evidence. I want just to refer to one or two things from the record. He said that at the time of the Holy Prophet, during that period, the condition of Islam was like the moon of the first day; but in the period of Masih-e-Mauood I would be Badr-e-Kamil (full moon). I gave full opportunity, I should say on behalf of the House, to the witness, Mirza Nasir Ahmad, to explain this and, in my humble opinion, he could not. First he said that during the life time of the Holy Prophet, during his period, Islam was confined to Arabia only. Then he changed the position. He said, "every period is his period. It will last throughout the history." Then he said that during the life-time of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Islam had spread to various countries in Europe. But I said that in the time of Masih-e-Mauood it should spread all over the world and there should be no non-Muslims left and that is what Masih-e- Mauood's period was meant to be. On this, he said, "No, that period will last for two to three hundred years. As for as the period of the Holy Prophet is concerned, that is confined to life-time and to Arabia only." These were the contradictions. But such claims were made. There are other references also. The members have heard them. But one part of the evidence which requires mention was the incident when that 'Qasida' or poem was read in praise of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, which included the following couplet: "Muhammad has descended among us again And is even greater in glory than before" This was, according to the author, read in the presence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Mirza Nasir Ahmad first said it was not read. If he had heard it, he would have disapproved of it and he would have expelled the author of this poem from the Jamaat. Then it was pointed out to him that, in the Qadiani newspaper "Badar" of 1906, this poem had appeared and nobody would believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not read it. That was his own paper, and that none of his followers or close associates pointed it out to him. Mirza Nasir Ahmad said that in the book containing poems of Akmal, who wrote this, the said couplet was deleted when this book was published in 1910. The Committee may take that into consideration. But we were concerned with the period of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. In that period, we have no evidence to the effect that he disapproved of it. On the contrary, it was pointed out to him, although he said that, that was contradicted in 1934 in "Al-Fazal"...that, in 1944, the author himself said that he had recited this in the presence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, that he had approved of it, and that he took it with him inside his house. I do not want to say anything more on this, but it shows, although he has tried to explain in a different way that there is another couplet in the poem also wherein he does not claim superiority. But I do not want to say anything more. These were the conditions, Sir, under which he claimed his prophethood and how he gradually and slowly promoted himself from one stage to another. Now, Sir, I will briefly submit as to what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or the Qadianis' concept of Khatm-i-Nabuwwat and the interpretation of ‘Khatimun Nabiyyan' was. Generally, Muslims thought that no more prophets would come after the holy Prophet of Islam but the Qadiani's concept is that Khatimun Nabiyyen means that no more prophets will come in any religion whatsoever except in Islam and the person who would be the prophet will be an "Umati' and his authority of prophethood will bear the seal of the holy prophet of Islam. This is what they mean by "the seal of prophets". He will not bring his own law. But, at this stage, it QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 3019 seems, they thought that not only one but many prophets would come and this is how the position is confused, because even Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad, when he speaks on this point, says, and I quote I read it out to Mirza Nasir Ahmad-this is from the Review of Religion, page 110: "Even if a sword is placed on both sides of my neck and I am told to say that no prophet will come after the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), then I will definitely say that you are a liar, a deceiver. Prophets can come after him, they definitely can.” This is "Anwar-i-Khilafat', pages 62 to 65. Then again he says: "This thing is proven as clear as day that the door of prophethood has not been closed after the Holy Prophet ﷺ." (Haqiqat un-Nubuwwat page 228) Then, again, he says in Anwar-i-Khilafat: "They have understood that the treasures of God have run out. Their understanding is due to not understanding the value of God. Otherwise, not just one prophet, I say there can be thousands of prophets." On this, when it was pointed out to Mirza Nasir Ahmad, he said that this "is in the sense of possibilities that Allah can do anything." They did not mean that many Nabis would come, but only one Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Another aspect which may not be directly relevant is that here is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's son who says this and boldly says: "Even if a sword is placed on both sides of my neck and I am told to say that no prophet will come after the Holy Prophet ﷺ, then I will definitely say that you are a liar, a deceiver. Prophets can come after him, and they definitely can." (At this stage Mr. Chairman vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Mohammad Haneef Khan) 3020 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, this is a very bold statement, a very courageous statement, by the son of a person who claimed to be a prophet. But when you compare it with the conduct of the prophet himself, one is amazed. In the District court of Gurdaspur, a complaint was filed against him i.e. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He had prophesied or predicted something against somebody who told the court that this man should be stopped from making such predictions, and he gave it in writing to the court that in future he would not prophesies the death or disaster of any person or make such predictions, or disclose such revelations that he might receive. Now here is the prophet of God! He stopped the revelation under the orders of the District Magistrate, and his son says this. Now, Sir, we found the same thing in the annexure which was filed on behalf of Rabwa Jamat, namely, that more prophets will come. And this is a book written by Maulvi Abu Ata Jalandhari, and I had read out page 8 from this end pointed out to Mirza Nasir Ahmad in which he said: There are two perspectives of Khatamiyat-e-Muhammadiya or those who believe the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) to be the last of the prophets. The first perspective is that the Seal of Prophethood of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has closed the blessings of other prophets and opened the door of the blessings of Muhammad. Your ﷺ Ummah, through your ﷺ following, can attain all the blessings that the blessed ones used to receive before. The second perspective is that after the Holy Prophet ﷺ, the Seal of Prophethood is synonymous with the closing of the blessings of Muhammad. Your ﷺ Ummah has been deprived of all those high blessings that the Children of Israel and the previous nations used to receive. I pointed out this writing to him and he said that it had nothing do with the prophets or their coming, although the book was written on the subject. But, in any case, on the one hand this stand is taken that more prophets will come, and they try to rationalise this by saying that this is a sensible idea, but on the other hand they say that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the only prophet who would come. Sir, as I submitted, the second issue was the effect of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim as a prophet in Islam or in relation to QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 3021 Muslims. After he made this claim, there were naturally the Muslims' feelings; the Muslims thought that any person who claims to be a Prophet after the Holy Prophet of Islam is an impostor. That was a natural reaction, the natural understanding, that he wanted to subvert their social and religious system. According to the Muslims, he had revolted against the cardinal principles of Islam, one of the most cardinal principles, that of He had struck at the root of that principle and there was naturally a very sharp reaction. Now, Sir, before I go into the details of the effect, I will point out very briefly as to what happened when he claimed this and how he could go around and address meetings. This will also show, Sir, another aspect of Mirza Sahib's claim about Prophethood, because there is some confusion. I said there were three stages, one stage, second stage, third stage, but sometimes we find that a statement appeared in the third stage which is similar to that which should have been in the first stage when he denies completely that he ever made such a claim and that he meant this and not that. The reason, I believe, was that wherever the opposition was very strong and hostile, whenever he found himself to be in a tight corner, he changed the position. Later on, again he tried to rectify it in a very diplomatic and tactful way of proclaiming his religion and the Prophethood. So, Sir, in 1891, he goes to Delhi after he claimed to be a Prophet, and here I read from his son's (Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad's) book “Ahmad or the Messenger of the Later Days", pages 32, 33 and 34. I just want to show, Sir, I will try to be as brief as possible, but it is important to show what happened to explain what I would be submitting later on: "The Juma Mosque was fixed as the place of discussion. But all these arrangements were settled by the opponents themselves, and no information was given to Ahmad. When the time fixed for the discussion arrived, Hakim Abdul Mejid Khan of Delhi came with a carriage and requested the Promised Messiah to proceed to the mosque where the discussion was to be held. The latter answered that in the prevailing state of public excitement there was likelihood of a breach of the peace, and that therefore he could not go unless police arrangements were made, and that moreover he should have been previously consulted regarding the discussion, and 3022 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept. 1974 the conditions to be observed by the parties in the debate should have been previously settled. His non-appearance served to increase the public excitement. He, therefore, issued a declaration to the effect that if Moulvi Nazir Hussain of Delhi would take an oath publicly in the Juma Mosque stating that Jesus (peace be on him), according to the version of the Holy Quran, was still alive and had not met with his death, and if within one year of taking the oath no Divine punishment should overtake him, then the claimant should be proved a liar and should burn all his books. He also fixed a date for the oath-taking. The disciples of Moulvi Nazir Hussain were much perturbed at the proposal and began to set up obstacles in its way. But the populace were insistent. What harm was there, they asked, if Moulvi Nazir Hussain should hear the proposition of the claimant and swear that the same was false. A great crowd assembled in the Juma Mosque. People advised the Promised Messiah not to go to the Mosque as there was likelihood of a serious riot. But nevertheless he went there and with him there went twelve of his disciples. (Jesus of Nazareth had also His twelve disciples. The coincidence of number was itself a sign.) (Now mark, Sir, in the brackets, he says). The spacious edifice of the Juma Mosque was full of men both inside and out, and even the stairs were crowded. Through this sea of men who were mad with rage and looked at him with bloody eyes, the Promised Messiah and his little band made their way to the Mehrab and took their seats. For the order there had come the Superin- tendent of Police with other police officers and nearly one hundred constables. Many of the crowd had stones concealed in their skirts and were prepared at the slightest hint to cast them at Ahmad and his party. Thus would the Second Messiah have been a prey to the wickedness of the Pharisees and Scribes the like unto his prototype of Nazareth. Instead of crucifixion the people were bent upon stoning the Second Messiah. They failed to carry their point in the verbal discussion which followed. They did not agree to discuss the question of the death of Jesus. None of them were prepared to take the proposed oath nor would they allow Moulvi Nazir Hussain to do so. At this stage Khawaja Mohammad Yusuff, a Pleader of Aligarh, got from the Promised Messiah a written statement of the articles of his faith, and prepared to read out the same. But since the Moulvis had given out to the public that the claimant did neither believe in the Holy Quran nor in the angels, nor in the Holy Prophet, they apprehended that the recital of the articles would expose their deceit. They therefore incited the people. Immediately a great row was set up and Khawaja Yusuff was prevented from reading the statement. The officers of police, when they saw the gravity of the situation, ordered the constables to disperse the crowd, and announced that no discussion would be held. The gathering thereupon dispersed. The police made a ring round the Promised Messiah and led him out of the Mosque". Now, Sir, my object in reading this in detail is two-fold, and I will be reading some more citations. First of all, what he said, what he gave in writing at that time when he was faced with the hostile crowd is in the following words. It is on October 23, 1891. I quote: "In all these matters, I have the same religion as other Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat. Now I clearly confess the following matters before the Muslims in this house of God, Jamia Masjid Delhi, and I believe in the finality of the prophethood of the Seal of the Prophets, and whoever denies prophethood, I consider him to be irreligious and outside the fold of Islam." Now, Sir, the other aspect was that he could only preach or explain his stand as a Prophet under a heavy police guard and not otherwise. Again, Sir, I have been asking these questions. At one stage when with one Abdul Hakim of Kalanoor he discussed the matter about his claim and when he found that the Muslims were very much annoyed with him, he after that announced that he had through his simplicity().written the word "Nabi" about himself. That actually he meant and the Muslims, wherever they found this word in his writings, should amend it, cancel it and substitute the word ""for""; and yet we find that after that he again went on writing the word 'Nabi' for himself, and no plausible explanation was given. I asked certain questions on this point from the Lahori Group because that was more relevant in their case. In that context, first of all, it was said that because people misunderstood, he did not mean to be a Nabi, he did not say that he was a Nabi in the real sense, he was a "Mohaddis", as the Lahori Group says, therefore, he issued this order that the word 'Nabi' about him should be deemed to have been cancelled. And when I asked as to why did he again write 'Nabi' for himself and why did he use this word, the spokesman of the Group said, some people were confused and for their sake he amended this, but some had no doubt and for their sake he continued to write the word. Again I asked him that when he himself says that he is a Nabi, in whatever sense it is, why don't you call him Nabi in that particular sense, in which you mean that "Nabi” means a "Chair Nabi", as the Rabwah Jamaat was calling Nabi in some sense? I was really shocked to hear that the Lahori Group did not use the word 'Nabi' for him because the people got annoyed. So, it was expediency more than anything else. Why did they not use the word "Nabi”, the Lahori Group, the reason is given. So, Sir, I was just saying that sometimes within these three stages, he is changing statements depending on circumstances. Now, I will come to one or two other instances of the meetings that he addressed. One meeting addressed by him was held in Lahore and, again, I am reading from his son's book, which I quoted just now. He says: "During the days of his stay the whole city was in an uproar. From morning till evening a great crowd waited outside the house in which the Promised Messiah had taken up his quarters, From time to time opponents used to come and abuse him and set up a row. Some of the more turbulent spirits even attempted to force into the private apartments and had to be forcibly ejected. At the instance of the friends at Lahore a public lecture was arranged. The speech was printed and was read in a large hall by Moulvi Abdul Karim, while the Promised Messiah sat by. There were from nine to ten thousand listeners. When the reading was over, the audience prayed that the Promised Messiah might address them a few words orally. In response he stood up at once and addressed the people for half an hour. Since it had been known by experience that wherever he went, people of every religion and sect displayed a keen animosity towards him, specially the so-called Mussalmans, the police authorities had, on the occasion, made very admirable arrangements for his safety. In addition to the Indian police, European soldiers had been put in requisition who were stationed sword in hand at short intervals. It had come to the knowledge of the police authorities that some of the ignorant mob had resolved to create a disturbance outside the lecture hall. They had, therefore, taken special precautions to ensure the safety of the Promised Messiah on his return journey from the lecture hall. First rode a number of mounted police. Then came the carriage bearing the Promised Messiah. This was followed by a number of policemen on foot. After them there rode again a number of mounted men, and thereafter walked another party of policemen. Thus was the Promised Messiah escorted back to his residence with the greatest possible care, and the mischief-makers were baulked of their designs. From Lahore the Promised Messiah returned to Quadian. But the people, when once excited, could not be made to show restraint. The tumult went on increasing and inspite of the efforts of the police it could not be suppressed. At last it was thought advisable that the Promised Messiah should resume his seat and another man was called to give a poetical recitation. This quieted the audience. Then the Promised Messiah stood up to resume his lecture, but the Moulvis renewed their outery. And when the Promised Messiah tried to continue with his speech, the Moulvis created a row and proceeded to attack the dais. The police tried to restrain the people, but thousands could not be checked by a few policemen. The mob rushed on like a sea wave and gradually gained ground. When the police saw the futility of their efforts, they informed the Promised Messiah that they could do no more. (It was my opinion considering the then circumstances that the police had failed to fully discharge their duty. There was no European officer among them. All the officers present were Indians who being the fellow countrymen of the rioters and themselves possessed of religious animosity towards the Promised Messiah, were willing to see the lecture come to a close). Upon this the Promised Messiah discontinued his lecture. But this did not suffice to allay the excitement. The people persisted in their attempt to force themselves upon the dais and to commit assault. Thereupon the Inspector of Police requested the The Promised Messiah retired to an inner apartment and sent a constable to fetch a carriage. Meanwhile, the police restrained the people from entering the apartments. The carriage was brought up to a side door of the apartment. The Promised Messiah started to occupy it. Through the Grace of God, none of us were injured. Only one stone passed through the window and struck the hand of my younger brother, Mirza Bashir Ahmad. Several of them struck the policemen who were surrounding the carriage. Upon this, they struck at the mob and dispersed them from the neighborhood. They placed themselves both before and behind the carriage, and some of them took their seat on the roof, and in this way, they drove the carriage quickly to the residence of the Promised Messiah. The people were so excited that in spite of the beating they received from the police, they pursued the carriage to a long distance. The following day the Promised Messiah left for Qadian. Then, Sir, lastly, I will read a passage of what happened on the day of his death, when the news reached the people, from the same book, page 81: "Within half an hour of his death a gathering of the Lahore public assembled in front of the house where there still reposed his only remains and began to sing songs of triumph-thus giving evidence of the utter blackness of their hearts. Others indulged in fantastic masquerading and thus bore testimony to the baseness of their nature." Sir, I am sorry, I have taken so much time in relating all this about the meetings that he addressed, but of all the meetings that he addressed, except when he went to address a meeting on "Manazara” with the Christians, where he still continued to defend Islam, there was no hostile crowd, but whenever he wanted to preach his cause, his claim, there was a hostile crowd and he could not address a single meeting anywhere without a big police force to protect him, and mainly it consisted of European soldiers and policemen and officers; and when I submitted about songs of triumph on his death, I wanted to draw the attention of the honorable members to that prediction and prayer which he had made about Moulvi Sanaullah; people thought that, well, that prayer had its effect on him. QADIANI ISSUE_GENERAL DISCUSSION 3027 Now, Sir what was the reaction, I have explained, and why we find that wherever he went, this hostile crowd went after him, and the reasons are obvious. The man had revolted against one of the basic concepts of Islam. Than, after that, we find that Mirza Sahib also becomes aggressive, and he uses very offensive language, but I do not want to go into details. There are two aspects. First, when he proclaims that he is "Nabi", then naturally came the question of faith, because, according to the Muslim faith, if a person does not accept a true Prophet of God, he becomes a "Kafir". Every Muslim must accept all the prophets who are mentioned in the Holy Quran, and since he claims that he is also mentioned in the Holy-Quran, he is a prophet. Therefore, his stand was that those who do not accept him as such are "Kafirs" and the Mulims', stand was that because he was an imposter and had put forward, this false claim, he was "Kazzaab" and "Dajjaal". Here starts the fierce controversy, attacks, counter-attacks, by Christians because he claims to be the promised Messiah, by Muslims because he claims to be "Nabi” and promised Massiah, So, he, Sir started saying: "Whoever does not follow you and does not enter into your allegiance will remain your opponent. He is a hell-dweller who opposes God and the Messenger." And then he said: "All Muslims have accepted me and confirmed my call, except for the offspring of prostitutes and adulterers who have not accepted me." This is from "Roohani Khazain”, volume 5, pp. 547, 548. Here I must say in fairness to Mirza Nasir Ahmad, who tried to explain that this is a translation from Arabic and he did not mean these words, but "baghay" meant one who revolts-a “baghi", and therefore, you can say of, not of women, he says, this is not what he meant. Our Ulema here, they did not agree. They said that this word was used again and again by Mirza Sahib himself with reference to prostitutes and women of bad character. So I do not want to say anything more on this, but this is what he said. The next point which he did not deny was, when he said: "Whoever is my opponent." Now, Sir, I am reading another quotation from "Roohani Khazain", page 53, vol. 14: 3028 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 "Undoubtedly, your enemies have become pigs of the wilderness, and their women are more numerous than the plants." Here he tried to explain that this was not with reference to Muslims, but with reference to Christians. Now, is this, with all the respect, the language which a prophet uses with regard to Christians or Hindus or anybody? I do not want to say anything more. This is no excuse, there is no justification for it whatsoever: Similarly, he says: "Whoever does not believe in our victory, it will be clearly understood that he desires to be born of fornication." This is again from "Roohani Khazain", vol. 9, p. 31. This is really something which was highly offensive, provocative, inflammatory, to say with regard to his opponents whether they were Muslims or Christians or whoever it was, particularly coming from a person who claims to be and better than Christ; all the wonderful attributes of prophets were shown through him by Allah, and this is the exhibition of those attributes! I need not say anything more on this. Then, Sir, it was through this period, his annoyance or his angers or his complexes, that he started abusing the Christ, Hazrat Issa. First he claimed to be superior to Hazrat Issa and he says: "Leave the mention of the son of Mary, Ghulam Ahmad is better than him." The justification given by Mirza Nasir Ahmad was that he said that not about himself, but "Ghulam-e-Ahmads" (slave of the Holy Prophet of Islam). Now, we are taught that all prophets have to be respected and they are equal in this respect, they are prophets of Allah, and here this man says that he was better than Issa and he justifies this on the ground that any slave of Muhammad was better than Issa. This is not the Muslim faith and there could be no excuse or justification for it. But he goes on further and says: "God has sent a Messiah in this community who is far greater in all his glory than the Messiah before him." QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 3029 This is from Religious Review, p. 438, and “Roohani Khazain”, vol. 22, p. 153, where he says again: I swear by Allah, in whose hands is my life, if the Messiah, son of Mary, had been in my time, he could never have done what I can do, and he could never have shown the signs that are being manifested in me. Well, if he claims superiority, it is bad enough, but he also composes a very laudable couplet I should say, I hope I am not committing a mistake but in beautiful words, no doubt he is a very good poet, a very eloquent poet, he says: Now here is the idol, that I have come with good tidings. Where is Jesus that he may place his foot on my pulpit. Now, this man ascends to those heights that he is superior to Issa, and Issa is not worthy of stepping on his Pulpit. This is the position; but after that he goes further and criticises and attacks the grand mothers of Hazrat Issa, I do not know why. The justification given was that because those people, those Christians in those days attacked the Holy Prophet of Islam and Islam, this was a reply given by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and other Muslim learned men of that period. But this is no justification; he was criticised for this even at that time. He says: "Your family is also very pure and manifest. Three of your grandmothers and maternal grandmothers were adulterous and promiscuous women, from whose blood your existence came into being." And then further he says that because his (Christ's) grandmothers, matermal or patermal, were prostitutes, that is why, because of that association, he liked the company of prostitutes. Sir, this is how he said, and when I asked him (Mirza Nasir Ahmed) as to how could be excuse these statements, he said this is not with reference to Hazrat Issa who appears in the Holy Quran, but is a reference to Yusu Massih() who has claimed to be son of God, I asked him after all they are not two different persons but the same man, the same prophet, and asked whether the grand mothers of Yusu Massih were different from those of Hazrat Issa? He said that Holy Quran does not mention his grandmothers at all, nothing more than this. 3030 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Sept., 1974 Then after that he (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) also says: "He (Jesus Christ) had nothing in your hand except deceit and fraud. Yes, he often had a habit of cursing and using foul language. And it should also be remembered that he also had a habit of lying to some extent." So these are statements which naturally offended not only the Musalmans, but also Christians. Muslims consider Jesus Christ as a true Prophet of Allah. They did not like this criticism and these remarks. I asked him (Mirza Nasir Ahmed) it was all very well to say that Jesus Christ was one person and Hazrat Issa was a different person, one was mentioned in the Bible and the other was mentioned in the Holy Quran, but how could he justify his criticism of Shias. And he tells them that "you forget about the dead Hazrat Ali, here the living Ali is present amongst you". Again what he said about Hazrat Imam Hussain. How could he justify that he is perfumed and, God forbid, Hussain was a heap of turd? He (Mirza Nasir Ahmad) said here also it meant, Ali of Shia conception and Hussain of Shia conception. Not, I don't think there is any difference between Muslims as far as conception of Ali or Hussain is concerned. In respect or admiration, all Muslims hold the same opinion of them But these were the things which, as I submitted, inflamed Muslims throughout this period and for this reason Mirza Ghulam Ahmed could not address meetings without police protections. This brings me to another small aspect before I go to the next issue. All this, which I submitted before the House, was to show that he needed the British help to propagate his religion, for the security of his person, and the British provided that in abundance, and it was under these circumstances that some Mullahs, according to him, and some Ulema, according to us, had made life miserable for him and he writes to the Lt. Governors Punjab and I will now just briefly read from that letter. He writes, Sir: "I confess that when the writings of some priests and Christian missionaries became very harsh and exceeded the limits of moderation, and especially the pamphletWhen Noor-ul-Islam, a Christian newspaper published from Ludhiana, printed very dirty articles, reading those newspapers and books made me fear that these words might incite Muslims, who are a zealous nation, to severe outrage. Then I said, the strategy to cool down these astrologers is to respond to these writings with equal severity so that the anger of irascible people subsides and no unrest arises in the country. Then, in response to such books in which extremely abusive language was used, I wrote such books in which there was severity because my conscience absolutely gave me the verdict that this method would be sufficient to extinguish the fire of the rage and fury of the savage, zealous people in Islam. So, what happened with me in opposition to the priests is that some savage Muslims were pleased with the strategy. And I claim with certainty that I am the well-wisher of the British government to the highest degree among all Muslims.” From all these speeches, along with the proofs that I have presented with my seventeen years of continuous speeches, it is clear that I am a well-wisher of the British government with heart and soul, and I am a peace-loving person and obedient to the government and sympathetic. Serving God's creation is my principle. And this is the very principle included in the pledge of allegiance of my followers. Consequently, it is always taught in the conditions of allegiance. The fourth page contains an explanation of these matters. Now, as I find it, he says that this speech of mine is supported by those I have delivered during the seventeen years. What I mean to say is that I am devoted to the British Government with all my heart, obedience to the Government, and sympathy towards God's creatures; that is my principle and that is just the principle of the prescribe from, the religion makes that amply clear. Again, he says, Sir, in a different place: "I believe," he said, "that as my followers increase, the number of believers in Jihad will decrease, because to accept me as the promised Messiah is to reject the doctrine of Jihad." Then, Sir, again he says: "The greater part of my life has been spent in supporting and defending this British Empire, and I have written so many books, published so many advertisements about the prohibition of Jihad and obedience to the English, that if those pamphlets and books were collected, fifty almirahs could be filled with them. I have sent such books to all Arab countries, Egypt, Syria, Kabul, and Rome. It has always been my endeavor that Muslims should become true well-wishers of the Empire. The original traditions of the bloody Mahdi and the bloody Messiah, and the exciting issues that corrupt the hearts of fools, may disappear from their hearts." In translation: It means: "By far the greater part of my life has been spent in preaching loyalty to the British Government. I have written so many books to denounce Jihad and preach loyalty to the Government, and I have published so many hand-bills that they would fill fifty almirahs if put together." (At this stage Mr. Muhammad Haneef Khan vacated the Chair which was occupied by Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali). Sir, before I read the next passage, please remember that author who wrote this beautiful Persian couplet: A beloved so filled with the omens of blood, Where is Jesus, that he may place his foot on my pulpit? From that height, he goes down to this depth of degradation. Can you find anywhere sycophancy of this nature? This servility in a Prophet! Can this be the composition of a prophet? And I will say that if to deny the Prophethood of the author of this letter is KUFR, then I am the greatest Kafir: If this be infidelity, by God, I am a hard-core infidel. Now, look at this man and look at this writing. Even an ordinary man, an ordinary human being, who has even the slightest regard for his own person, who has a little faith in God, who had a little confidence in himself will not say a thing like this. He claims to be a Prophet. We have that portrait of Quaid-i-Azam. (pointing to Quaid-i-Azam's portrait in the National Assembly Hall). He was an ordinary human being. What happened on the 2nd June 1947? You all know it is mentioned in Campbell Johnson's book. He (the Quaid) reported on behalf of Muslim League whether they accept the well-know Third June Plan or not, whether the Muslim League accepted this sort of Pakistan which they were giving to the Muslims or not? Campbell Johnson writes that the whole day the Viceroy was waiting for Mr. Jinnah and he arrived just a minute before midnight. The Viceroy asked, "What is your answer, Mr. Jinnah?" The reply by Mr. Jinnah was: “I do not agree with it but I accept it." "What is the difference?" said the Viceroy. The reply from Mr. Jinnah was very simple: "I do not like it therefore I do not agrees, but I have no other alternative --you divide my Punjab, you divide my Bengal. How can 1 be happy? I have no alternative. That is why I accept it. I am only the head of the Party. This thing must be decided by the Muslim League Council and that will take two wecks and so on behalf of the Council I cannot guarantee, whether they will agree or note but I will advise them to "accept it because we have no alternative." Lord Mountbatten was furious. He said, "I cannot accept it. Tomorrow was to be announced. Congress has agreed, on behalf of their Council or Committee. How can you not agree?" Mr. Jinnah replied, "Mine is a political organization based on democratic principles. I must go before my people and get their sanction." Lord Mountbatten said, "Then look here Mr. Jinnah, if you on behalf of Muslim League do not give me an assurance that you accept this, then you will lose your Pakistan and for good." What was the reply of Mr. Jinnah? Here is a man who had spent his life-time in political wilderness; an old man of 70. He was to be the head of the promised home land. He was to be its master. But I did not cringe or crawl. He had faith in the Almighty Allah and he said__"what must be, must be", and walked away. This was the reply of a man who had faith, and a man who believed in God. The Viceroy had to rush after him and request him to come back. He said, "Mr. Jinnah, on behalf of the Muslim League I will give an assurance tomorrow morning that they will accept it because I know that they will accept your advice. You please only say that you have accepted it." Mr. Jinnah said: "Yes, I will say that", and that is how Pakistan was established. He could have lost Pakistan. He could have thought: here I am losing a country, let me agree on behalf of the whole nation. But, no, that man had faith. We should not be comparing that person with this man who claimed to be a Prophet and writes this letter and cringes before earthly power in this fashion. This disappointed me. I should not have become sentimental. What Iqbal said: To expect from idols, to despair from God! Tell me, what could be more infidelity than this? This is exactly what it means. Sir, then I go to the next passage. He says: Therefore, the government should take utmost care and investigation regarding such a family, which has proven its loyalty and devotion through fifty years of continuous experience, compared to this self-grown plant, and instruct its subordinate officers to also do the same. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION "Considering the proven loyalty and services of the family, he should look upon me and my community with special favor." 3035 He respectfully submits to the Lt. Governor that this family has been constantly tried during the last 50 years and found unflinchingly loyal, and prays that the Government be pleased to regard this sapling of their own planting with jealous care and unfailing interest and instruct its subordinate officers to protect, to accord him and his followers (Jamaat) preferential treatment in view of the loyalty of his family which had pledged for the cause of the Government. Sir, I do not want to say anything more. Again I say: is this a prophet writing to the Lt. Governor? What does he say: Please instruct your subordinate officers to accord him preferential treatment. The prophet does not come even to the level of Lt. Governor, asking, requesting him, begging and praying: Please instruct your subordinate officers to treat me like this. And this man, I am sorry to say, I should have not said so much really, says that he is better than all other prophets: "He gave that cup to me completely, He placed his foot on my pulpit. Whatever cup was given to every prophet, Where is Jesus so that he..." The author of the said couplet asking Lt. Governor "to treat me very nicely through the subordinates and look after this sapling of their planting" What was that: "Your own planted sapling." I asked him (Mirza Nasir Ahmad) a lot to explain this. I do not want to be unfair to him. He said it was only meant for his family. Now a prophet begging the Government to look after his family, the faith of an ordinary man can move heaven and earth and here a prophet seeks protection and help from the earthly power and, cringes before it: 'protect my family, protect my Jamaat'. And then we are told, Sir, that "if you do not accept his prophethood, you are Kafir and pucca Kafir". No wonder why Muslims revolted against his claim, if for nothing else, as I submitted, this is enough to put off any self-respecting man because he claims to be 'Ain-i-Mohammad' and we know what 3036 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [September 6, 1974 Muhammad (peace be upon him) is for us - the perfect, most perfect human being who has ever walked on this earth, in kindness, in dignity and self-respect and from every point of view. You look at his life when he goes to Mecca and vanquishes his enemies, he is kind, he is generous, and before the worst enemy and the greatest tyrants never stopped to say La-Ilaha-il-Allah. He did not give an application that in future "I will not disclose my revelations". I am sorry, I should not say because I have promised that I will try to plead their point of view also. I will make an attempt. But this is the thing you know, which we have to tell to show the other side. And in this country from that time this friction goes on. Now I will not comment more on this aspect because I do not have much time and I have plenty of ground to cover. Sir, I will now go to the next subject which was rather impor- tant because issues Nos. 4 and 5 I will take together which are: The Effect of not accepting Mirza Sahibs claim as prophet-its effect and the reaction of Muslims. Before I go into that—because here ] had a very difficult time in dealing with Mirza Nasir Ahmad and it is also I think appropriate that I should, in passing, refer to one or two other facts. Sir, after Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's death, Hakim Nooruddin was the first caliph of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Hakim Nooruddin became the first caliph. Nothing more has come on the record about him. He seems to have been a very quiet man and hardly anything was said about him. But then after his death a split took place in the party or the Jamaat when they go into two groups, one Lahori group and the other Qadiani group or Rabwah school of thought. After Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad died, the next caliph, Mirza Nasir Ahmad took over. He appeared before the Committee. I asked a question about his own life. He related those things which are on the record. And apart from that what I have gathered something from the Qadiani literature, I will respectfully narrate this also. Mirza Nasir Ahmad succeeded his father, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad, as third Caliph-Imam of Ahmadeya Jamaat in 1965 and as the present Head of the movement, Qadiani Rabwah section. He was born in 1909. He is highly educated and cultured man with very impressive personality. He is a Hafiz-i-Qur'an, M.A. (Oxford), a great scholar of Arabic, Persian and Urdu religious literature. According to the literature of his Party and I refer to 'Africa Speaks', a magazine brought out by them, he was Head of Youth Organization of Ahmadis called QADIAN ISSUE_GENERAL DISCUSSION 3037. Khuddamul Ahmadiyya. He is the "promised grandson of the promised Messiah and Mahdi." His election as Caliph fulfills the prophecy which mentioned that "the throne of the Messiah, descending to his Grandson." They say it is given in the Bible that the Messiah, when he comes again, his grandson will sit on his throne, and then it says elected for life, he is Voice-Articulate of the age, and in direct communication with God. Before his election as Head of the Qadiani Ahmadiyya Community, he was also Principal of Talimul Islam College from 1944-1965, an educational institution run by this Jamaat. He is also addressed as Amirul Momineen by his followers. According to his evidence, the Khalifa of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is elected by an electoral college which at the time of his election was of about 500 representatives of various groups. He did not contest election as a candidate nor were the nominations or proposals filed at the time of election. Two names, his and of another person belonging to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's family, were suggested and he was elected unanimously. It is their belief that the Khalifa is elected through divine intervention and blessing. The question of his removal on grounds of mental or physical incapacity does not, therefore, arise. He is guided by Allah. He may fall ill or physically get paralyzed but mentally he can never get paralyzed. The Jamaat has its branches all over the world and everywhere where the Ahmadis live. He says it is purely a religious organization. He is head of religious empire like the Pope. He has an advisory body whom he consults. The decisions are taken by him mostly with their consent and are generally unanimous but he has the final authority to overrule the body. In short, the belief of his followers is that he can do no wrong because of the divine guidance and blessing. Now, Sir, when this august person appeared before the Committee, the question came and I will not go into details of the citations as to what Mirza Sahib said about those who do not accept his claim of prophethood - He said they were Kafirs - what is meant by that? He said 'Kafir' did not mean the person who is apostate, a person who is renegade in the sense that he has to be ex-communicated from Islam but it means a sort of 'Gunahgar', a sinner, a Kafir of a second category, because he believes in the Holy Prophet of Islam. Therefore, according to Mirza Nasir Ahmad, he remains within the Millat-i-Mohammadia but he is outside the Dairah of Islam or Circle of Islam. This was 3038 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 all lost on me. I made a big effort to understand that a person when he becomes Kafir: "is out of the circle of Islam but not outside the Millat-e-Muhammadiya." What does it mean? We had very difficult time for many days. Ultimately, Sir, when he was confronted with the citation from Kalama-tul-Fasal,-I read from page 126. I read it to him and when I read it out, I asked him as to what it meant? Here is: "It seems that Hazrat Masih Maud also sometimes had the thought that people should not be deceived by seeing the word Muslim regarding non-Ahmadis in my writings. That is why, sometimes, as a remedy, such words have also been written regarding non-Ahmadis that those people who claim Islam. Wherever the word Muslim occurs, it should be understood as a claimant of Islam, not a true Muslim." Here I asked him as to what 'Haqiqi Musalman' meant. He has gone into great detail in Mehzarnama also to explain as to what is a true Muslim and he said, "there are many of them". I said, "Do they exist today? Because it is a very difficult definition." In the definition, there is no mention of accepting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as prophet or not, and I said it is a very difficult definition. Do such people exist who are true Muslims in this sense? He said, "Yes, hundreds of them, thousands of them, lakhs of them.". I was amazed as to where those people were. Then, when I asked him he was avoiding this-direct answer. I said, "can there be or is there a single 'Haqiqi Musalman' a true Musalman among non-Ahmadis?" He said, 'No'. That finished the matter; that concluded the controversy, because, according to them, Musalman is only a Musalman who is true Musalman; the others are only political Muslims, Muslims in name only or bogus Muslims, false Muslims; but true Muslim, good Muslim is only an Ahmadi or from among the Ahmadis and nowhere else. So, Sir, this is the position that has to be considered. And then in the same book, Sir, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's son Mirza Bashir Ahmad, says: "Every person who believes in Moses but does not believe in Jesus, believes in Jesus but does not believe in Muhammad, believes in Muhammad but does not believe in Masih Maud is a Kafir and a confirmed Kafir and is out of the circle of Islam." Now, in spite of this clear language, he said that when he says that anybody who does not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as Prophet is outside the pale of Islam. He says, "No, no, this is not what we mean by." But it means that he still remained in the Ummat of Holy Prophet of Islam." Sir, this is something which most of the time we were discussing with him and we tried to find a way so that they could accept the general Muslim body as Musalmans because it was not our effort and it is not our effort to save the situation. Of course, it is far from this Committee to decide what ultimately should be done. But I thought that if he said that we are Muslims and we will say that they are Muslims and ignore these Fatwas which have been going on for a long time, but he bluntly said that there was no among Non-Ahmadis. It was impossible for a non-Ahmadi to be a Muslim. Now, Sir, he said many things also about prayers and marriage, but I will go to the next issue and shall try to deal with that part of his statement when I make submission on the next issue whether he founded an Ummat of his own or he only created a new sect in Islam, that is, their separatist tendency about which a lot was said. I have little time, Sir, I am conscious of that. I do want that this thing should be brought on the record because this is ultimately going to be something which the members will have to take into consideration when they give a decision or make a recommendation. Here, Sir, I will take back the members to what I stated before about the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqui: If we have to sit for so long, I will freeze. I also have a temperature. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: Your quilt needs to be arranged. Mian Muhammad Ataullah Farooqui Sahib is getting cold. (Interruption) Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, as I said before that this is a very important aspect and it requires special considerations. After all; if a decision is adverse, it will affect that community. I understand that he claimed to be Massih-e-Maoud, and then he said that Prophets are of two kinds, and I read from Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Aamad's book "Ahmadiyat or the True Islam", page 28. He says, I quote: "In short, Prophets are of two kinds, those who are law-bearers like Moses (on whom be peace) and those who only restore and re-establish the Law after mankind has forsaken it; as, for instance, Elijah, Issaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Jesus (on all whom be peace). The Promised Messiah (on whom be peace) also claimed to be a Prophet like the latter, and asserted that as Jesus was the last Khalifa (Successor) of the Mosaic dispensation, he was the last Khalifa of the Islamic dispen- sation. The Ahmadiyya Movement, therefore, occupies, with respect to the other sects of Islam, the same position which Christianity occupied with respect to the other sects of Judaism." Here, Sir, you will find a parallel. He says that Jesus Christ was a Prophet without his own law. He belonged to the Jewish sects which followed the law of Moses. Then he says that Mirza Guhulam Ahmad holds the same position with regard to the Prophet of Islam which Jesus Christ holds with regard to Moses. Now, Sir, in every religious society and a religious system, the followers of the disciples of a Prophet revolve around the personality of their Prophet. That is how the system works. In Judaism, we have Moses; in Christianity, we have Christ; and in Islam, we have the Holy Prophet of Islam Mohammad (peace be upon him), how, when Jesus Christ appeared in Jewish society, although he claimed and said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the Prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill." See the significance: "I have not come to destroy the law or the Prophets. I have come to fulfil." Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says: "I have not come to change even a dot of the Holy Quran. I want to re-establish it", the same parallel; and when Hazrat Issa started re-interpreting the Moses laws, he changed their shape, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, changed into "offering the other cheek", but the followers of Jesus Christ asserted that the basis for all this could be found in the Torah itself, in the teaching of Moses itself. Exactly the same thing Mirza Ghulam Ahmad started, re-interpreted parts of the Holy Quran which got altogether new meanings like the expression or about the life or death of Hazrat Issa. So, Sir, this was the parallel which you will kindly see as to what happened in the case of Jewish society when Jesus Christ appeared. He changed the law. Some people within the same society started revolving around him. Now, if in any religious society, in a religious system, there is a pivot already and another pivot is added, another personality is added, and some people start revolving around him also, conflicts and frictions take place. Either the whole thing must get upset, get destroyed, or that one group must part company and start a religion of their own, as happened in the case of Christianity vis-a-vis Judaism. My own impression is that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wanted to follow the line of Jesus Christ. After he got enough strength and support, he would announce and declare, "I have a separate 'Ummat’ of my own". This line, I think, be followed and this is what he was aiming at. Now, for that, the Committee's members are well aware because we brought a lot of evidence on record and I have just cited from that book, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad left a code of conduct for his followers. Then, Sir, he issued the injunctions to his followers with regard to marriage, I have quoted from the book 'Ahmad' before, and I quote again the injunctions to Ahmadis regarding marriage, page 54: "The same year with a view to strengthen the bonds of community and preserve a distinctive feature he promulgated rules regarding marriage and social relations and forbade Ahmadis to give their daughters in marriage to non-Ahmadis." Now, if you belong to the same 'Ummat' and are brothers, can you issue such an injunction and yet say I am an 'Ummati and belong to the same faith? Then, Sir, he issued injunctions about prayers including Janaza prayers. I have a lot of citations but I will not take your time. The Committee heard this. There was a stand taken very firmly by Mirza Nasir Ahmad. He said, "We do not say prayers for the simple reason that all the sects of Muslims had given Fatwas against us. They called us Kafirs. The Fatwas boomeranged and made them Kafirs, and because of this position in Shariat we cannot join them in the prayers". He insisted on that position and several days were actually wasted because I wanted him to be frank. If you have a certain faith, be frank about it, why evade questions. But he evaded, I am sorry to say, he evaded again and again and insisted on this point that because of these Fatwas they do not pray with us. About the Quaid-i-Azam's funeral he said because Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani had given a Fatwa, therefore, Sir, Zafrullah could not join that funeral. Well, I asked him, why did not you offer 'Ghaibana Janaza' prayers anywhere behind your own 'Imam'? He said he had no idea whether anybody offered that or not. He evaded that question. I am sorry, this thing went on for quite a few days and the Committee is well aware what ultimately came out. They thought they would carry the day on that firm ground of Fatwa; nobody could dispute those and they cited so many Fatwas. But ultimately the real fact came out when I asked him that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had a son, I believe, Fazal Ahmad, who had not become an Ahmadi. I asked him about him. He said: "Yes". I asked, “did he die in his life time?" He said, "Yes". I said, "Did Mirza Sahib offer his Janaza prayers?" He said, "No". I said, "Did he offer or give any Fatwa against Mirza Sahib?" He said, "No". And then I said, "Was he annoyed with him?” Because Mirza Sahib said that "once that very obedient son did not even misbehave. was ill and when I opened my eyes", Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said, "this boy was standing and weeping", and still in spite of that he refused to say Janaza prayer for the simple reason that Mirza Sahib did not consider him to be a Muslim. Mirza Sahib considered him to be a Kafir. So all the stories about Fatwas were meaningless. Same is the position with regard to marriage, Sir. He said that they did not do it "because the Muslim--by Muslim I mean non-Ahmadi--do not look after the Qadianis girls well. They would not be able to perform their duties and obligations according to the injunctions of Islam." What an arrogant statement to make and how to insult the people on their face! The best and the finest human beings who know how to treat their wires are only amongst Ahmadis! But on the other hand he says, “Yes, a Muslim girl can marry an Ahmadi; but an Ahmadi girl cannot marry a Muslim. An Ahmadi girl will be unhappy with a Muslim and the Muslim girl will be happy with an Ahmadi.” So, Sir, on this ground also his claim about happiness an unhappiness, I am sorry to say, is not correct because their own book again I come to this second little book, I do not know how many times I have read it. This is QADIANI ISSUE_GENERAL DISCUSSION 3043 Kalma-tul-Fasal', Here is the explanation, Sir. This is by Mirza Bashir Ahmad, page 169. He says: "Our prayers were separated from the non-Ahmadis. Giving daughters to them was declared forbidden. We were stopped from offering funeral prayers for them. Now what is left that we can do together with them? There are two types of relationships, one religious and the other worldly. The biggest source of religious connection is praying together. And the biggest source of worldly relations is marriage. So both of these have been forbidden for us. If you say that we are allowed to take their daughters, then I say that we are also allowed to take the daughters of Christians." That is the reason, Sir, that they considered us in the same position as the Christians consider Jews. They consider us in the same position as the Holy Prophet considered the Jews and the Christians with regard to the Muslims. Ahmadis consider Muslims just like the Prophet of Islam considered Jews and the Christians as separate ummats and separate people. But their girls are allowed to marry Muslim males. Muslim girls are not allowed to marry them. The same policy has been adopted. Further, I asked him this, again and again, to explain about the separatist tendencies. The reason was that I wanted him to have the full opportunity to explain that there was no such tendency among the Ahmadis or Qadianis. But what we find is that there is a similar parallel as between the Christianity and Islam. There is a parallel between Ahmadiat and Islam. It goes on. On the same line Mirza Sahib is trying to find a separate Ummat of his own. There is another instance from the census report of 1901 when he directed his followers to register themselves as a separate sect, or course, calling themselves as Ahmadi Muslim. Then, Sir, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad said, and it was cited before him (Mirza Nasir Ahmad), that our Allah, our Prophet, our Quran, our Nimaz, our Haj, our Roza, our Zakat, everything is different from the rest of the Muslims". I do not know what does that mean. He said this means "the way we interpreted them" He gave many explanations about their separatist tendencies and the Committee 3044 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (6th Sept., 1974 should take into consideration the fact that from time to time they have been supporting the Muslims and the Muslims' cause in political field. He gave a long history. He related the services of Sir Zafrullah. He related the services of his own father, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad, in the Kashmir committee. Of course, Dr. Iqbal resigned from that Committee for the simple reason that the Qadianis were exploiting it for their own ends. But that apart, his point of view was that they always served the cause of Muslims and they jointed hands with them. There is no doubt that in the newspaper of the 13th November, 1946, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad says in his 'Khutba', which is reported there, that if the British Government took any action against the Muslim League, that would be cosidered an attack against the Muslim nation and they (Qadianis) will support the Muslim nation. There he definitely sides with the Muslims. But in the same issue we find that while he says this, he sent a messenger to the Viceroy and he tells him that just like the Christians and Parsis got their representation and their interests were protected, "protect our interests also", and the British Viceroy or some high-up tells him or his representative, "you are a Muslim sect and these are minorities, religious minorities." He replied that the Ahmadis interests should also be respected in the same manner and protected in the same way: "If they can produce one Parsi, I can produce two Ahmadis for each Parsi". That is the line he has taken himself. On this point, Sir, I will again quote from Dr. Iqbal. He says: "Considering the separatist policy of the Qadianis, which they have consistently pursued in religious and social matters ever since the birth of the idea of building a new community on the foundation of a rival prophethood and the intensity of the Muslim feeling against this move, it was rather the duty of the Government to take administrative cognizance of such a fundamental difference between the Qadianis and the Muslims without waiting for a formal representation on behalf of the Muslim community of India. I was encouraged in this feeling by the Government's attitude in the matter of the sikh community which till 1919 was not administratively regarded as a separate political unit, but which was later treated as such without any formal representation on the part of the Sikhs, in spite of the Lahore High Court's finding that the Sikhs were Hindus". QADIANI ISSUE-GENERAL DISCUSSION 3045043 So, sir, Allama Iqbal was of the view that Qadianis them- selves have been insisting and wanting to be treated as a separate religious community and here is also an answer to the objection that the House has no authority or power or jurisdiction to declare them as such because the High Court in Lahore and the Privy Council had given the decision that Sikhs were part of Hindu community and the Parliament declared them to be a separate community. Parliament can do that. That is also the thing to be noted by the Committee. Again, sir, about the Qadianis, Allama Iqbal says and I quote: "According to our belief, Islam as a religion was revealed by God, but the existence of Islam as a society or nation depends entirely on the personality of the Holy Prophet. In my opinion, only two courses are open to the Qadianis, either frankly to follow the Bahais or to eschew their interpretations of the idea of finality in Islam and to accept the idea with all its implications. Their diplomatic interpretations are dictated merely by a desire to remain within the fold of Islam for obvious political advantages." Again, sir, Allama says: "Secondly, we must not forget the Qadianis' own policy and their attitude towards the world of Islam. The founder of the movement described the parent community as "rotten milk" and his own followers as "fresh milk", warning the latter against mixing with the former. Further, their denial of fundamentals, their giving themselves a new name (Ahmadis) as a community, their non-participation in the congregational prayers of Islam, their social boycott of Muslims in the matter of matrimony, etc., and above all their declaration that the entire world of Islam is infidel - all these things constitute an unmistakable declaration of separation by the Qadianis themselves. Indeed the facts mentioned above clearly show that they are far more distant from Islam than Sikhs from Hinduism, for the Sikhs at least intermarry with the Hindus, even though they do not worship in the Hindu temples." So, sir, these are the views of Allama Iqbal. 3046 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 What I was submitting and what we have seen here is that they do not consider us Muslims. I pointed out respectfully to Mirza Sahib that a resolution was passed in England by the Ahmadis after Rabwah incident, where they described themselves as "we, the Ahmadi Musalmans" and "condemned" the "non-Ahmadi Musalmans of Pakistan". They referred to them as Pakistanis. So, this is the position in which they have landed themselves. Then, Sir, we find that they have a parallel system of personalities to be respected in Islam: kept in highest امیر المومنین ام المومنین : regard. They started a parallel class and these differences created friction in the society-a parallel system created by them. Then, Sir, when we are happy, they are not happy; when we are unhappy, they are happy. This is what the evidence has shown. Muslims were unhappy when the British conquered Iraq during the first War, and they had a Utzin Qadian. We created a separate State, with the help of God, because we thought and felt like one man that we shall remain together because we think and feel in the same manner; there is a subjective psychological feeling of belonging to one another, whether we are Baluchis or Pathans or Sindhis or Punjabis, and for this reason we feel and think very differently from them. That is also a factor which the Committee will take into consideration although, as I submitted, they have said things which could also be kept in mind that they will support the Muslims. Now, Sir, I come to the last part. I have taken too much time and I am trying to rush through this constitutional position about Ahmadis. Whatever may be the decision, whatever stand the members of the Committee may take, please remember that they are Pakistanis and they are entitled to equal rights of citizenship, and there is no question of 'zimmis' or of second class citizens in Pakistan. It is not possible. I will tell you why it is not possible. Please remember that Pakistan was not created through conquest, it was created through compromise and an agreement. It was signed on behalf of the Muslim nation and the agreement was based on Two-Nation Theory. We were a Muslim nation in India or in the Indian sub-continent and other nation was the Hindu nation and the rest were small sub-national groups. Now, the creation of Pakistan divided the Pakistani nation and part of it was left in india and we could not let them down because they made sacrifices for the creation of this promised land. So, the agreement was that they will have equal rights—political and civil rights—with other Hindus in India, and we will give the Hindus and other minorities equal rights, political and civil, in Pakistan. This is what you will find the interpretation given in the book "Emergence of Pakistan" by Ch. Muhammad Ali. The Pakistani Constituent Assembly met for the first time on August 11, 1947, and the Quaid-i-Azam addressed it. Those were very, very difficult days; a lot of Muslims had lost their lives, sacrifices were made, people were butchered by Hindus in spite of this agreement, and naturally there was reaction and retaliation in parts of Pakistan, and the Quaid-i-Azam made a passionate plea to the Muslims in Pakistan for toleration. He was reminding them of our commitment. He was reminding them of the duty of the government to look after the interests of the minorities. There he said, "You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques," and then he said, in the course of time: "Hindus shall cease to be Hindus and Muslims shall cease to be Muslims. Not in the religious sense, but in the political sense, i.e., political equality." Although this speech was misinterpreted, and certain people said that he gave up the Two-Nation Theory, but this was not so. This was the commitment and the agreement that he was talking about. He talked of the Two-Nation Theory after that, and Chaudhri Mohammad Ali has explained this in detail in his book. But the idea was to remember that we are committed, as a nation, to treat all the minorities with equality and to see that they have all the rights under the Constitution, which include the right not only to enter services without discrimination, not only of equality before law and to have the equal protection of law, but also to preach, practice, and propagate their religion, to manage and maintain their religious institutions. This thing the Committee will kindly keep in mind. They have a right, whether you declare them a separate community or not, this is their right and this is guaranteed in the Constitution, and the honorable members of this House have taken oath to preserve and protect the Constitution and uphold its dignity. Sir, there will be many complications if such a decision is taken, and I say this from the Qadianis' or Ahmadis' point of view. What does he say? The letters you have received, the letters I received, those should also be kept in mind. He says that look, you The narrow-minded ascetic Considers me an infidel And the infidel thinks I am a Muslim. Maulana Abdul Haq Sahib! You have already given a speech. Maulana Abdul Haq, the Attorney General, has explained this issue with such understanding and intelligence, may Allah grant him a great reward for it. May he receive divine help for this religious service. It was that Allah Almighty chose him for the translation of our, that is, the committee's, translation, and he performed his duty in a very good way. Mr. Chairman: He has been true to his duties. I have thanked all the members. Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari Sahib! Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Sir! I realize that I have already taken a lot of time and it is also late now. I still had many things that I wanted to say as soon as possible. But the Attorney General has clarified many things, so I will come to the point very briefly. The representatives of both groups of Mirzais, who had come, created many misconceptions. I tried to remove some of them that day. There are a few more about which I want to say something. Regarding the places, they presented many quotations from different scholars. But the basic difference, which I mentioned that day and mentioned by name, is that many scholars issued fatwas for Jihad and performed Jihad. Other learned speakers also mentioned. Certainly, there were also scholars who held the view that the conditions for Jihad are not present at this time, the circumstances are not favorable, and there are no chances of success. This is something that is always under consideration. But no one could dare, and no Muslim can ever dare, to say that Jihad has been abolished forever. Not a single fatwa can be shown in which it has been said that Jihad is haram and absolutely haram, and the order of Jihad has been suspended. From today, the human Jihad that was done with the sword has been stopped by the order of God? From today, the earthly Jihad for the sake of religion has ended. These kinds of things, when the Quran and Hadith There are clear orders, and there is a very well-known Hadith that Jihad will continue until the Day of Judgment. The misconception that conditions for Jihad exist at a particular time; whether conditions are favorable or not, is one thing entirely, and to say that Jihad has been abrogated, completely stopped, is something that indicates the negation of the basic tenets of Islam. Regarding the statement of the scholars' fatwa, some clarification has emerged. But I want to draw the attention of the House, through you, to a fundamental difference. It is that the scholars who issue fatwas do so based on their knowledge; based on Sharia evidence, and most of the fatwas that prominent Muftis give, include proof that such and such verse of the Quran or such and such Hadith or such and such Imam has ordered. That is how they give them. That is, it is based on their knowledge, as much as one's knowledge is. There is no inspired quality in it. That is, there is no claim in it that this is from God in which there is no possibility of error. There are many examples where a scholar issues a fatwa. After a few days, he feels that something was missing in it or he did not notice a Hadith, so he himself withdraws the fatwa. A very famous scholar of this era, Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi, has a book of about one hundred and seventy-five pages called "...", in which he has compiled all the fatwas that he amended or withdrew. It is not a claim of being free from errors. Then, one Mufti gives a fatwa, and other people in the same country can also disagree with it. Therefore, there is a great difference between the fatwa of the scholars and the fatwa given by Mirza Sahib or his son, or that are giving now. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 305 The Attorney General has already stated many things regarding the Muslim world, so I don't need to say anything more about them. However, there are one or two things to which I would particularly like to draw your attention. The quote has already come that we have no religious connection with the Turks. When the Turks were attacked, when there was war, when they were being destroyed, the entire Muslim population of India supported them. Perhaps people of at least my age remember that Muslims never showed as much enthusiasm as they did during the Khilafat Movement. After that, there is the story of Palestine, and I remember well that there was no meeting of the Muslim League, we were going through great difficulties, but there was no meeting of the council where we did not pass a resolution for Palestine. And from that time until now, even after the formation of the government, even before that, we have been 100% fully supportive of the Arabs in the issue of Palestine, and we are still today. But I will tell you their statement in which they have written, they have said that the Arabs do not deserve to be the rulers of Palestine, meaning that their entitlement has been abolished forever, and the reason given is that since the Muslims there deny a new prophet, just as after Jesus became a prophet, that place was taken away from the Jews, so now that a new prophet has come, since they deny him, they do not deserve to be its guardians, its owners, its rulers. The era we are going through, and now after the holding of this Islamic Conference, we will have to take into account all these things in our national and collective life, which countries of the world are with us not only religiously but also in other ways. So in this regard also, I have made it clear how different their position is from ours. 3052 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept. 1974 Now they have repeatedly tried to mislead and have been saying for a long time that, Sir! We are reciters of the Kalima, how can we be called infidels? And then there is this that whoever greets you in Arabic, do not call him an infidel, consider him a believer. The question arises is that they are not giving the lesson of this standard or are they themselves acting upon it? Are not 750 million Muslims of the world believers in La Ilaha Illallah Muhammad Rasulullah? Is Islam not prevalent among them? Obviously, they do not take these things to mean this. Why do they expect to be Muslims themselves? When they make someone an Ahmadi, do they only make them by reciting the Kalima? There is no time, otherwise I would have recited it. Anyway, everyone must have seen the oath of allegiance in which one oath is that we consider all the claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be true and will fully obey the Khalifa of the time in what is known. Without this, one cannot become an Ahmadi can't. And when one is not an Ahmadi, then he is not a Muslim. So, according to them, the standard of being a Muslim is this, and they say to us that whoever greets you on the road, consider him a Muslim. So, the standard should be the same. And the extent of aversion to Muslims is such that this is also a fatwa that the disbelief of non-Ahmadis is proven by clear evidence and praying for forgiveness for infidels is not permissible. If a Muslim dies, then praying for his forgiveness is forbidden Therefore, the disbelief of all of us is proven by clear evidence in their view. Now, on that day I had submitted something that, as they said, everything of ours is separate, our God is separate, our Prophet is separate, and all things. The details of some things were also explained by friends. Anyway, their concept of God cannot be our concept. Never We cannot imagine for God that a person will take a stool and he will sign on it, soak the ink and put him on a cot and call him son, and on this QADIANI ISSUE_GENERAL DISCUSSION 3053 after which there are extremely vulgar concepts that God Almighty became a man and what a story. Their son, Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad, stated that He became a woman, and she was a very beautiful woman, and then he said that now you will live with me in paradise. So, in any case, we do not have such vulgar ideas. Our concept of the Messenger is also different. Regarding the Quran, I have already mentioned that in their view, Hazrat Masih Maud considers his revelations to be the word of God, and its status as the word of God is like that of the Holy Quran, the Torah, and the Bible, and in any case, it takes precedence over Hadith. The revelation of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad takes precedence over the sayings of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). This excerpt had already come, The fate of the deniers of the Caliphate, page 19. Now, you see that in our religious terminology, God, the Messenger, the Quran, Hadith, Revelation, and Inspiration also mean that revelation, in our view, has ceased, and in all religious dictionaries, its definition, even in English dictionaries, in the Encyclopedia of Religions, is that revelation is that which is revealed to the messengers, to the prophets. Our concept of revelation and inspiration is different, and our concept of the greatness of the prophets is also different. We believe that if a prophet is appointed, a person is excluded from the circle of Islam. The same is true in the greatness of the Ahl al-Bayt. And their opinion has already come in the quotations. Regarding Hajj, it should also be seen that now Allah Almighty has chosen Qadian for this work. I have already mentioned about Jihad. I had mentioned about Durood and also gave a photocopy that day. They did not accept it. But I had told them about another Durood in their books, the photocopy of which is still present and is also printed in the book (Arabic). This is their Durood. Their concept about the Companions is also different. 3054 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [9th Sept., 1974 And our perception is different, in fact, completely different. The perception regarding the Imams is completely different. The perception regarding the Mothers of the Believers is also completely different. The perception of Masjid al-Aqsa is different. The perception of Ashab al-Suffa is different. Regarding Mecca and Baitullah, they say that the "Chobara" (small room/platform) where they used to sit and remember God, for that, Allah said (in Arabic) that whoever enters it will find peace. Whereas this verse is about the Holy Mosque (Haram Sharif). For Qadian, they have written that we consider Qadian to be both Mecca and Medina. But the Lahori's consider Qadian to be Mecca and Lahore to be Medina. This is the difference between the two. It is our common practice that if a non-Muslim passes away, we do not say "Marhoom" (may God have mercy on him), we write "Anjahaani" (departed soul). Wherever they have mentioned Sir Syed, they have written "Anjahaani," just as we write for Hindus or Christians. The day before yesterday, I also presented this excerpt that the difference of opinion is among Muslims regarding "Maslak" (sect) and "Maktaba Fikr" (school of thought), but no one has said that our religion is different. That day I recited an excerpt that they said that the religion that Mirza Sahib has brought, they said that Allah will make it dominant. The excerpt regarding the "Ummah" (nation) has already come, so they are a separate "Ummah" (nation). Now, I will very briefly tell you such words, according to the belief and emotional connection of Muslims, the relationship with the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), for so long they have tolerated all kinds of insulting things for the entire Muslim nation, for the righteous, for the prophets, for the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself. And we have Na'ats (poems praising the Prophet) prevalent, which evokes a feeling within a person and gives him satisfaction. Naat and Salutations in the glory of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). He has created [something] separate for himself. I will recite a few of his verses. Blessings and salutations happen everywhere. Now, the blessings and salutations that take place with them are: "O Imam Al-Wari Greetings upon you Bar Al-Diya Greetings upon you Mahdi and Jesus, the Promised, Ahmad, the Chosen One, greetings upon you The horizon of Qadian has dawned, becoming the sun of guidance, greetings upon you With your coming, all the prophets have come, the manifestation of the prophets, greetings upon you Silence of revelation, love of Gabriel, Sidrat al- Binti Greetings upon you We acknowledge your messengership, O Messenger of God, greetings upon you" This was published in Al-Fadl, in the issue of July 1, 1930. Beyond this, there is another heartbreaking poem, and it seems as if a balance is being established everywhere. In comparison to one Messenger, peace be upon him, we say "Messenger Madani," and we have countless poems in Urdu for him. Now, on the rhyme of "Messenger Madani," they have created "Qadani," those are also verses: "O my beloved, O my soul, Messenger Qadani For your sake, for your sacrifice, Messenger Qadani Anta Minni Wa Ana Mink, may God say Shall I tell you what your glory is, Messenger Qadani The greatest throne, God praises you What are we insignificant ones, what is the glory of Messenger Qadani The signature of the Almighty is on your matters May Allah [exalt] your glory, Messenger Qadani" In the first advent, he is Muhammad, now he is Ahmed. The Quran, the Messenger Qudwani, has descended upon him. Now, observe further: Let me make the kohl of my eyes from the dust of your feet, Every day, Asim, all Jilani, Messenger Qudwani. Now, this was the height of incitement and infliction of pain. However, Muslims had to endure this for so long. This was a wrong perception of tolerance, and tolerance cannot be called that; it can be called worthlessness or ignorance. Anyway, we were all trapped in it. May Allah Almighty save us from this. Now, for this, the solution that we want to present, which seems to be the inclination of the whole house, what is that solution? We do not want to present the solution to this problem that, based on religious differences, the Christians used to solve the problem of the Jews, as in France, in England, in Portugal, in Acheen, in Italy, in Germany, and in Russia, whatever was done based on this religious difference, we do not present that solution. We do not say that they have these two things before them: either repent from your religion, or you will be exiled, or you will be killed. We do not say this, even though they have hurt us more than that. We do not say that at this time. We do not want to present any kind of solution that other ideological states do: to punish, to inflict pain, even going below that, on racial grounds, where there are distinctions, what things are in their constitution, we do not say that either. For example, in the constitution of Australia, there is this thing that at the time of elections: "Aboriginal natives shall not be counted. No election law shall disqualify any person other than a native." ... Or it was the government of South Africa, and sir! It is in the constitution of the United States that: "Excluding Indians, not taxed." Meaning everyone has the right, they do not have the right. We do not have any such solution in front of us. The status of the solution that we want to present is that we approve of their request that they presented to the British 28 years ago, which was published on November 13, 1946, we approve of their request in which they said that we should also be given rights like Christians and Parsis. We want to do the same for them, exactly according to their wishes. If there is no malice in their hearts, then they should be happy that the request that their masters could not approve 28 years ago, we are approving that request today. So, if there is no intention of mischief, then they should understand this. And the situation between us and them has now become this: Neither am I happy by being faithful, Nor did you do well by being unfaithful. A time passed when we tolerated all kinds of things. But according to their policy, the incident that they did in Riyasat, after that, obviously, the whole nation was provoked. They did not do this without understanding, they are not so naive that they would think that after such a big incident the nation would remain silent. Their intention was to see by showing this power how much our influence is. It is present in their writings that by such and such time you should gather so much power that the enemy is intimidated by your influence. In any case, even the British, whose own cultivated plants they were, did not approve of this, and about whom I will tell you one sentence, the time had not come when the purpose was that this is such a group that is loyal to the British government and has earned a good name, even they did not accept this request. We Out of generosity and magnanimity, they accept this request and promise to protect their lives and property, on the condition that they do not betray Pakistan or show disloyalty to it. That's all. And after this entire declaration, they will still have to be monitored, to see what their movements are, and what they do regarding their ambitions. Regarding the Muslim world, many people believe in other places where they have established centers and converted many people to Islam, there will be negative effects. I will only mention one place as an example to you: In Nigeria, a conference was held in mid-April, and people from all Muslim schools of thought and Muslim organizations were invited. They were not invited. The reason they were not invited was that they were not considered Muslims. Anyway, those who had fallen into their trap of deception, when they found out, they said, "Why don't you invite us?" They said, "We do not consider you Muslims because you are followers of another prophet." So they said, "We have not been misled." A very large number repented there, and after repenting, such disgust arose among the people that they closed their mission. But now they are working there under another name, Tehrik-e-Anwar-e-Islam. In Syria, in 1926, based on the fatwa of Abu al-Din Abidin, from the family of the Mufti and a very great personality there, in 1906, the Interior Government there investigated them and came to the conclusion that they were spying and undermining Islam. Therefore, they were banned there. Their office and property were sealed. Similarly, in Egypt, when it was discovered that they were spying for Israel, their entry was prohibited. You all know about Saudi Arabia. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 3059 So, you have accepted one of their requests, and perhaps full approval will come tomorrow. Another thing is that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad requested the government in 1901 to have his followers listed separately in the census. Anyway, the British approved that request. But it was implemented until 1931, not in 1941. One request of mine is that we should restart the implementation of that request, and their census should be done separately. They have made so many blatant misstatements, but very clearly, in response to the Attorney General's question, they said that they are not a political party. Now, in this regard, I will just read out a few excerpts to you. (Interruption) Mr. Chairman: I have promised you that I will not stop any honorable member, absolutely. Make as many speeches as you want. There is no concern about the finality of Prophethood now. At nine o'clock, you start looking at your watches. No, we will sit all night today. Where has the love for religion gone now? Maulana Sahib! You speak. Okay, we will sit. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I briefly want to bring this on record that they are not a political party; they have misrepresented this. They are a purely political party, and such a political party that wants to seize power through violence, through force, through bloodshed. In this regard, I want to present a few excerpts. They say: 3060 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 So, those people who say that we have no politics are ignorant. They do not understand politics at all. The person who does not believe that the Caliph also has politics, why does he pledge allegiance to the Caliph? He has no allegiance. And the real thing is that our politics is more than the government's politics. So, the only reason I have not repeatedly stated this issue of politics is that I have deliberately avoided it. You people should understand this well that Khilafat also has politics, and the person who does not believe this makes a false pledge." (Al-Fadl, August 13, 1926) Then he writes, the second saying is: "In essence, there is no non-religious act in politics, rather it is included in religious objectives." Now again, a political point comes up that every Ahmadi among us believes that within a short time, whether we live until then or not, but in any case, that period cannot be extraordinarily long, we will achieve not only practical superiority over the whole world but also political and religious superiority. When some officials come before us, we meet them with this belief and confidence that tomorrow they will be begging for help from us with utmost humility and meekness. (Al-Fadl, October 2, 1939) After that, it is: "I think that by cooperating properly with the government, we can take over the government as soon as possible, not by non-cooperation." This is from May 1935, when there was talk of cooperation with the British. QADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION Mr. Chairman: Chaudhry Mumtaz Sahib, Mian Masood Ahmed Sahib and Muhammad Aslam Sahib, please come back. Shahzada Sahib! You also please come back. This is not a good way to pick up books and walk towards the doors. Please speak. Shahzada Sahib, please sit down as well. Close the doors, lock them from the outside. Okay, Ansari Sahib! Please speak. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: He says: Malik Muhammad Akhtar, can I go inside? Mr. Chairman: Yes, you may go, the reason is valid, very valid reason. Close the doors. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: "So we do not know when we are to be entrusted with the world by God. We must be prepared from our side." Mr. Chairman: Begum Shireen Wahab Sahiba can go, only Begum Shireen Wahab Sahiba. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: "We must be prepared from our side to manage the world." Mian Muhammad Ataullah: Point of order, sir, women have the same rights, so women should not be allowed to go either. Mr. Chairman: No, no, let him speak. There is a reason for that. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This is from March 1922. The details are no longer available at this time. After that, there is 1935: 2002 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept. 1974 At this time, the progress of Islam is tied to me by God. Remember, politics, economics, and cultural affairs are tied to the government. And until we do not strengthen our system and try to seize governments through preaching and education, we cannot implement the entire teachings of Islam." That is, trying to seize the government despite separation from politics. Now he writes further: Our party should bring about a new change within itself, a change that in a very short period of time will make it dominant over other forces." This is from 1949. After the creation of Pakistan, what forces are there now that they want to dominate? The honorable members of the House can assess this themselves. Then there is further instruction that: If one hundred thousand Ahmadis are understood in Pakistan, then nine thousand (9000) Ahmadis should go into the army. Military preparation is a very important thing. Until you learn the art of war, how will you work?" You people will be aware that a lot of propaganda was done regarding the Furqan Battalion, which the late Liaquat Ali Khan disbanded, that it did a great job. So, the medals for it were distributed inside the Secretariat in Rabwah. Next is the instruction of the current Khalifa: I tell the entire community that is present here and the entire world with complete certainty that a great change is about to occur in the world within the next twenty-five (25) to thirty (30) years. The day is near when the majority of many countries of the world will have accepted Islam (i.e., Qadianism). All the powers of the world together will face this revolution. QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION "...will not be able to stop." In any case, these are countless. Next is Zafarullah Sahib's speech. Mr. Chairman: You haven't given what you were supposed to write and submit. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, sir! There is no time for that. Now, Zafarullah Sahib's speech: "If the Ahmadiyya community comes to power, taxes will be imposed on the rich, wealth will be redistributed, interest will be banned, and drinking alcohol will be prohibited." This is, in any case, a matter for the government. Then he writes: "We do not have the government to reform these people with coercion and, like Hitler or Mussolini, expel from the country anyone who does not comply with our orders and give exemplary punishment to those who do not listen to us and are not prepared to act on them. If we had the government, we would have done this in one day." This is, in any case, the situation. I want to briefly explain that when the Ahmadiyya community comes to power, the status of those who are outside Ahmadiyyat will be that of Chooras and Chamaars. In any case, this coming to power and trying for power and preparing for it, as I said that day, one hundred thousand cyclists and ten hundred thousand horse riders and spearmen and so many women - this should be enough to open our eyes. Despite all this, we are thinking of the path that can be the most generous treatment possible in the world. But with this, it is necessary to keep an eye on their movements. And when the proposals are there: 3064 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [6th Sept., 1974 Those people who do not truly believe in Hazrat Masih Maud (peace be upon him), they think and believe that everyone will be crushed and only we will remain. Everyone sees death, and only we see life because it has been said about us that many thrones descended from the sky, but your throne was laid above all. So, other kingdoms are in danger of being broken, but we hope that we will be given the kingdom. Rulers are afraid that their government will be gone. But we are happy that it will be given into our hands.” (Interruption) Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: So, in any case! The only intention was to bring it on record. I regret that I have taken a lot of the honorable members' time. I thank you for giving me the opportunity to present these things again. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much. Any honorable member who would like to speak? Members: No. Mr. Chairman: Any honorable member who wants to speak? If anyone wants to correct any statement or add anything again? Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqi: I want to say something. Mr. Chairman: You should refrain. If you do, then there will be a discussion on it, you should refrain. I am asking them. QADIANI ISSUE SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED CAREFULLY ALLAH IS THE PROTECTOR OF THE VILLAGE OF ALI. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Mr. Speaker, Sir! I have a request to make, that all of this is being recorded. I think this entire proceeding will come into the House Committee's record. Mr. Chairman: When we complete the record, we will omit these things. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: No, I was saying that the things related to this... Mr. Chairman: No, we will only do that, the rest which are our remarks about you, or our discussion that took place before or after the cross-examination, that we shall not make part of the record. We have to publish this record. This is what I announce. That will take some time until and unless we correct it, sir, because these things will not go to the public. A member: Will not go? Mr. Chairman: That's why he objected that maybe these things should not come on record. Mr. Mahmood Azam Farooqi: Sir! Allow me one hour to speak. Mr. Chairman: Is the House prepared to grant him leave to speak for one hour? Members: No, no. Dr. S. Mahmood Abbas Bokhari: Sir, he can speak in the lobby, if he likes it. Mr. Chairman: Before we rise for tomorrow, I want to place it again on the..... Maulana Abdul Haq will say, will say. A member, sir! Let them sit, they will sit. Mr. Chairman: So, for tomorrow, I would like to say, first of all, I thank you because this is our almost last meeting, and all of you friends, gentlemen, members have not only considered it a duty but also a part of your faith and performed this duty. For this, I am not only grateful to you but also congratulate you for sitting for two and a half months and serving for the sake of your country and the survival of democracy. And I cannot say more than this right now because the recommendations are coming before you. And I, God willing, hope rather I had this hope from the first day that by the grace of God, we will unanimously bring something before the House. So, there will be no session tomorrow morning because there is no need for any debate. The debate is over. All necessary steps have been taken. Recommendations will be presented to the National Assembly. You have heard their explanation, heard the Attorney General's speech, references to books, and all formalities have been completed. Now the bill will be presented in the National Assembly tomorrow. The session will be at half-past two tomorrow. There may also be a meeting of the Standing Committee. Discussions are still ongoing. The bill will come in the form of legislation. We also have to prepare the record. Tomorrow at half-past two there will be a meeting of the Special Committee, for legislation or whatever positive or negative has to be done. The Special Committee will last for about one hour or two hours for finalising recommendations; and then, at 4:30, recommendations shall be presented to the National Assembly which will hold an open session. The National Assembly meets always in open session. In it, the recommendations will be finalized. But because of the QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION 3007 gravity of the situation and the prevailing political condition in the country, we would be strict in the admission not only to the galleries but to the premises of the Assembly even. Passes will be issued only to the family members of the MNAs or their close relatives. This restriction will be only for tomorrow. This restriction will apply even to the admission in the cafeteria or inside Gate No. 3 and Gate No. 4. Definitely there will be restrictions, and I am sorry for the inconvenience to the honourable members. They will be allowed to come in without any bag in hand. Such things will be avoided under all circumstances. It is for the information of the honourable members. Cards will be issued to them. Those, if you want to take, ten fifteen as many cards as there are, they are yours. I am again thankful and grateful to you. Thank you very much. The Special Committee of the whole House adjourned to meet at half past two of the clock, in the afternoon, on Saturday, the 7th September, 1974. PCPP 1160(10)NA-7-4-2011_450 This page intentionally left blank. No. 21 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, September 7, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS Pages 1. Qadiani Issue - General Discussion - (Concluded) 3072-3076 2. Resolution to Declare the Qadiani Group and the Lahori Group as Non-Muslims - (Adopted unanimously) 3077-3081 3. Secrecy of the Proceedings 3081-3083 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD. No. 21 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, the 7th September, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS Page 1. Qadiani Issue - General Discussion - (Concluded). 3072-3076 2. Resolution to Declare the Qadiani Group and the Lahori Group as Non-Muslims - (Adopted unanimously). 3077-3081 3. Secrecy of the Proceedings 3081-3083 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD No. 21 400 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, the 7th September, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) CONTENTS Pages 1. Qadiani Issue General Discussion - Concluded 3072-3076 2. Resolution to Declare the Qadiani Group and the Lahori Group as Non-Muslim - (Adopted unanimously). 3077-3081 3. Secrecy of the Proceedings 3081-3083 PRINTED BY THE MANAGER, PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN PRESS, ISLAMABAD No. 21 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE OFFICIAL REPORT Saturday, September 7, 1974 (Contains Nos. 1-21) C-34 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN PROCEEDINGS OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA Saturday, September 7, 1974 The Special Committee of the Whole House met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at half past two in the afternoon, Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair. RECITATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN 3072 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN QADIANI ISSUE - GENERAL DISCUSSION [7th Sept., 1974 Mr. Chairman: It is very pleasant to find the House full after two and a half months. It was full on the 30th of June and credit to all those honourable members who have remained sitting here for two and a half months. There might be slight inconvenience to those persons to whom cards have been issued because we will open the gates of the Assembly when we conclude this at 4.30. So they will have to wait outside, those persons to whom the cards have been issued, and I think we must have a tea break for about fifteen minutes. Then we will meet at about 3.20 p.m. [The Special Committee adjourned for tea break to meet at 3.20 p.m.] [The Special Committee re-assembled at 3.40 p.m., Sahibzada Farooq Ali in the Chair.] Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Law Minister. I would request the honourable members to be attentive. One hundred and seventeen members are present. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada (Minister for Law and Parliamentary Affairs): Mr. Chairman, three months of an ordeal before the Special Committee of the National Assembly and 90 years of history, full of agony, of the Muslims of the Sub-continent is about to come to an end. When this question arose soon after the 29th of May, no one could even have remotely imagined that this august body would be burdened with the onerous task of resolving a highly complicated and intricate issue involving religious sentiments of millions of Muslims in the Sub-continent and all over the world. Today, it is the victory of the democracy and the democratic institutions and democratic norms and traditions. That is why I say that an agonising chapter comes to an end. The issue with greater vengeance did arise in the Sub-continent on previous occasions. QUADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 3073 also. There have been confrontations and 'munazras'. There have been killings. There have been serious riots and law and order situations, and at least on one occasion in the past democratic Governments were toppled and Martial Law was imposed in the country because of disturbances arising out of the same issue. Sir, this is not the occasion to make a long speech. We have sat here day in and day out, but I would be failing in my duty if I did not pay a tribute to the members of this august House. Never before in the history of parliamentary democracy in south-East Asia has a democratic institution like the Parliament or the National Assembly undergone such an experience. We have parliamentary democracy in the newly created State of Bangla Desh. We have parliamentary democracy in Sri Lanka. We have parliamentary democracy in India. These, Sir, are countries in South-East Asia which have had parliamentary democracy in one form or other; even Bangla Desh when it was with us; but you shall not find a precedent of this nature in the parliamentary history of any of these countries. Under heavy odds, very provocative and offensive conditions, my colleagues, you the members of this august House, sat here patiently and objectively to arrive at a national decision, and the issue was referred to you so that you could arrive at a decision, not of an individual but a decision of the nation of Pakistan, whose representatives you are and whose mandate you hold, by virtue of which you call yourself the National Assembly or the Special Committee of the National Assembly of Pakistan. We have heard this matter for the last three months. I must confess my own ignorance from the point of view that I did not know about this issue as deeply as some other members. Having heard it at length, we can feel why a Muslim had such a deep and emotional reaction to this issue. One thing that emerged as a result of our deliberations and sittings and discussions is that our concept as popularly understood by Muslims of the finality of Prophethood of Mohammad (peace be upon him) is a fundamental article of faith of all Muslims, and no matter what happens, this fundamental article of faith of the finality of Prophethood cannot be compromised by Muslims in any sense. That is why I said, Sir, that this was not an issue of the Government, this was not an issue of the Opposition; we had to treat it as a national issue, and the nation could ill afford to divide itself on such a vital issue and therefore, 3074 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th Sept., 1971 the effort of the Government, through the Government leader, the Prime Minister of Pakistan, as also all our friends who sit across the floor, was to look and search for a consensus so that the nation should not be divided on such a vital issue and the decision of the National Assembly should come unanimously and by consensus. It is my proud privilege on behalf of the majority party and my friends there who have authorized me to move a Resolution to state before this august Committee that such consensus and unanimity has been arrived at. Sir, in a few minutes, the members of this august House shall have before them a proposed resolution that I intend to move on behalf of myself, Maulana Mufti Mahmood, Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqi, Prof. Ghafoor Ahmad, Mr. Ghulam Faruque, Ch. Zahur Ilahi and Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro. In this resolution, we have given the draft of recommendations that we would like to make. Now, Sir, this contains the recommendations. This has to be distributed along with the copy of the Constitution Amendment Bill. Mr. Chairman: That too is being circulated.. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: This should not be circulated separately. Sir, now I have got the original copy. I would like to place it for the purpose of record. Sir, what we propose for the consideration of the Committee and adoption by it, in the form of recommendation, is a resolution which contemplates constitutional measures, which contemplates legislative, administrative and procedural measures, and which also contains a reiteration of assurance of safety, security and safeguard of life, liberty, property, honor and fundamental rights of all citizens of Pakistan irrespective of the community that they belong to. Constitutional amendments I will explain and so also legislative and procedural amendments that we recommend. Before that, I would like to say that as soon as these recommendations are approved by this august House, which I am confident will be unanimous as would appear from the moving of this resolution, we will convert ourselves immediately thereafter into the National Assembly and I will take before the National Assembly the recommendations of the Committee, which, on approval, would entitle the moving of the Constitution Amendment Bill. We hope that in today's sitting we would pass the Constitution Amendment Bill and today it would be QUADIANI ISSUE GENERAL DISCUSSION 3075 transmitted to the Senate and we hope that the Senate would also pass it today so that the chapter should stand closed today. Now. Sir, the constitutional amendments that I recommend on behalf of myself and my friends are two-fold, that the Constitution of Pakistan be amended to include a definition of a person who is not a Muslim. This definition should come by an addition of a clause to Article 260. There are two clauses in Article 260 of the Constitution. This Article deals with definition and we would like to add clause (3) to this Article to give the definition of a non-Muslim as under: "(3) A person who does not believe in the absolute and unqualified finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the last of the Prophets, or claims to be a prophet, in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever, after Muhammad (peace be upon him), or recognizes such a claimant as a prophet or a religious reformer, is not a Muslim for the purposes of the Constitution or law.". Sir, the second amendment that we propose in the Constitution is to Article 106, clause (3), which deals with reservation of seats in Provincial Assemblies for communities, over and above the general seats that have been prescribed, and the amendment that I propose in clause (3) of Article 106 is that at the end of the word or after the word 'communities', the following words be added: "Communities and persons of the Qadiani Group or the Lahori Group who call themselves Ahmadis. " This is second amendment. Sir, let me make it absolutely clear that Article 20 of our Constitution gives fundamental right of freedom to profess, propagate and practice one's own religion and every community shall be at liberty to do so, the profess, propagate and practice their own religion, but, as I said, Muslims' Finality of Prophethood, as would be defined in article 260 of the Constitution, is an article which is fundamental in faith. Therefore, we propose to 3076 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th Sept. E recommend that the Pakistan Penal Code should be amended in section 295 (a) by the Addition of an Explanation. There is already a clause in the Pakistan Penal Code which prohibits people from propagating religion in a manner so as to be offensive to other religious beliefs. Therefore, all Muslims because we cannot stop others from practising or professing or propagating their own religion - but if a person is a Muslim, then we have to see that all Muslims who profess, practise or propagate against the concept of Finality of Prophethood Muhammad (peace be upon him) as set out in clause (3) of Article 260 shall be punishable under the section. Sir, naturally, with these amendments, there will be conse- quential procedural amendments or changes in law or rules or forms or practices, such as the National Registration Act and the Electoral Rules, and it would also be a recommendation for consideration that such consequential amendments may be made by the Government at relevant time because there might be some laws where entries might have to be changed, giving entries of people etc., and of persons and so on and so forth. Lastly, Sir, I would like to say that we have ourselves given the Constitution by consensus. In this Constitution, we have not only given fundamental rights to the citizens but we have also guaranteed these rights, and it is the responsibility of the nation as well as of the State, both combined, the State and the nation, to see to it that all rights, whether they relate to property, liberty, life and honour or whether they be fundamental rights, as given by the Constitution, are fully protected, irrespective of cast, creed or community that a person belongs to and, therefore, this also goes without saying that the controversy has come to an end, the nightmare is coming to an end. Therefore, we shall all recommend and also practise ourselves in a manner so as to safeguard, secure and fully protect those rights guaranteed to each and every citizen. This is the sum total of our recommendation. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman: The Committee of the Whole House approves the resolution and the recommendations? All Members: YES. RESOLUTION TO DECLARE THE QADIANI GROUP AND THE LAHORI GROUP AS NON-MUSLIMS Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Sir, I will now formally move it. Sir, I beg to move: Sir, I beg to move: "That the Special Committee of the whole House approves and passes unanimously the following resolution: "The Special Committee of the whole House of the National Assembly unanimously resolves that the following recommendations be sent to the National Assembly for consideration and adoption. The Special Committee of the Whole House, assisted by its Steering Committee and Sub-Committee, having considered the resolutions before it or referred to it by the National Assembly and after perusal of the documents and examination of the witnesses, including the heads of Sadar Anjuman-i-Ahmadia, Rabwah, and Anjuman-i-Ahmadia Ishaat-i-Islam, Lahore, respectively unanimously makes the following recommendations to the National Assembly:- (A) That the Constitution of Pakistan be amended as follows: (i) that in Article 106(3) a reference be inserted to persons of the Qadiani Group and the Lahori Group (who call themselves 'Ahmadis'); (ii) that a non-Muslim may be defined in a new clause in Article 260. To give effect to the above recommendations, a draft Bill unanimously agreed upon by the Special Committee is appended. (B) That the following Explanation be added to section 295-A of the Pakistan Penal Code:- 3078 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th Sept. 074 "Explanation.-A Muslim who professes, practices or propagates against the concept of the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as set out in clause (3) of Article 260 of the Constitution shall be punishable under this section." (C) That consequential legislative and procedural amendments may be made in the relevant laws, such as the National Registration Act, 1973, and the Electoral Rolls Rules, 1974. (D) That the life, liberty, property, honour and fundamental rights of all citizens of Pakistan, irrespective of the Communities to which they belong, shall be fully protected and safeguarded." Sd/- ABDUL HAFEEZ PIRZADA, MAULVI MUFTI MAHMOOD, MAULANA SHAH AHMAD NOORANI SIDDIQI, PROF. GHAFOOR AHMAD, MR. GHULAM FARUQUE, CH. ZAHUR ELAHI, SARDAR MOULA BUKHSH SOOMRO.":" Mr. Chairman: The motion moved is: "That the Special Committee of the whole House approves and passes unanimously the following resolution: "The Special Committee of the whole House of the National Assembly unanimously resolves that the following recommendations be sent to the National Assembly for consideration and adoption. The Special Committee of the Whole House, assisted by its Steering Committee and Sub-Committee, having considered the resolutions before it or referred to it by the National Assembly and after perusal of the documents and examination of the witnesses, including the heads of Sadar Anjuman-i-Ahmadia, Rabwah, and Anjuman-i-Ahmadia Ishaat-i-Islam, Lahore, respectively unani- mously makes the following recommendations to the National Assembly:- RESOLUTION TO DECLARE THE QADIANI GROUP AND THE LAHORE GROUP AS NON-MUSLIMS 3079 (1) That the Constitution of Pakistan be amended as follows: (i) that in Article 106(3) a reference be inserted to persons of the Qadiani Group and the Lahori Group (who call themselves 'Ahmadis'); (ii) that a non-Muslim may be defined in a new clause in Article 260. To give effect to the above recommendations, a draft Bill unanimously agreed upon by the Special Committee is appended. (B) That the following Explanation be added to section 295-A of the Pakistan Penal Code:- "Explanation.-A Muslim who professes, practises or propagates against the concept of the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as set out in clause (3) of Article 260 of the Constitution shall be punishable under this section." (C) That consequential legislative and procedural amendments may be made in the relevant laws, such as the National Registration Act, 1973, and the Electoral Rolls Rules, 1974. (D) That the life, liberty, property, honour and fundamental rights of all citizens of Pakistan, irrespective of the Communities to which they belong, shall be fully protected and safeguarded." Sd/- ABDUL HAFEEZ PIRZADA. MAULVI MUFTI MAHMOOD, MAULANA SHAH AHMAD NOORANI SIDDIQI, PROF. GHAFOOR AHMAD, MR. GHULAM FARUQUE, CH. ZAHUR ELAHI, SARDAR MOULA BUKHSH SOOMRO." 3080 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th Sept., 1974 Mr. Chairman: The question is:- "That the Special Committee of the whole House approves and passes unanimously the following resolution: "The Special Committee of the whole House of the National Assembly unanimously resolves that the following recommendations be sent to the National Assembly for consideration and adoption. The Special Committee of the Whole House, assisted by its Steering Committee and Sub-Committee, having considered the resolutions before it or referred to it by the National Assembly and after perusal of the documents and examination of the witnesses, including the heads of Sadar Anjuman-i-Ahmadia, Rabwah, and Anjuman-i-Ahmadia Ishaat-i-Islam, Lahore, respectively unani- mously makes the following recommendations to the National Assembly:- (A) That the Constitution of Pakistan be amended as follows: (i) that in Article 106(3) a reference be inserted to persons of the Qadiani Group and the Lahori Group (who call themselves 'Ahmadis'); (ii) that a non-Muslim may be defined in a new clause in Article 260. To give effect to the above recommendations, a draft Bill unanimously agreed upon by the Special Committee is appended. (B) That the following Explanation be added to section 295-A of the Pakistan Penal Code:- “Explanation.-A Muslim who professes, practises or propagates against the concept of the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as set RESOLUTION TO DECLARE THE QADIANI GROUP AND THE LAHORI GROUP AS NON-MUSLIMS be punishable under this section." (C) That consequential legislative and procedural amendments may be made in the relevant laws, such as the National Registration Act, 1973, and the Electoral Rolls Rules, 1974. (D) That the life, liberty, property, honor and fundamental rights of all citizens of Pakistan, irrespective of the Communities to which they belong, shall be fully protected and safeguarded." Sd/- ABDUL HAFEEZ PIRZADA, MAULVI MUFTI MAHMOOD, MAULANA SHAH AHMAD NOORANI SIDDIQI, PROF. GHAFOOR AHMAD, MR. GHULAM FARUQUE, CH. ZAHUR ELAHI, SARDAR MOULA BUKHSH SOOMRO."." The motion was adopted unanimously. SECRECY OF THE PROCEEDINGS The Chairman: Before I adjourn the Special Committee and convert itself into the National Assembly, I just want to remind the honorable members that they are in possession of the documents and the proceedings of the House Committee. All these papers are confidential and secret papers and shall not be published and shall not be leaked out or shall not be told about to any person unless and until the Assembly authorizes the publication of such record as it deems fit. In the end I would also like to thank all the honorable members irrespective of which party they belong to. Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Mr. Speaker! I submit, what is the need now of the ban on publication? 3082 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [7th Sept, 1974 Mr. Chairman: No honorable member should speak when the Chairman is speaking. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Maulana Sahib! I will explain to you that we have to present a report on behalf of this House Committee regarding the proposals for the performance we have done. Mr. Chairman: Maulana Sahib! Besides that, there are many things, for example, I remind you that you were talking about the restroom, you will make corrections and then do it after that. Dr. Mubashir Hasan (Minister for Finance, Planning and Development): Sir, why should secret session proceedings be published unless the Assembly decides otherwise? Mr. Chairman: Yes, I may quote a precedent. These proceedings are just like the proceedings of the Constitution Committee, which have not been published and which have not been authorized to be published. So before we adjourn this Committee sine die and it becomes functus officio I would like to place on record my thanks to all the honorable members irrespective of which side they belong to, and my special thanks to the Attorney-General, the Law Minister and all those persons. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: Sir, we are all thankful to the Attorney-General for the labor that he put in. I would like it to be placed on record unanimously. Mr. Chairman: I would like to place it on record that I share the sentiments expressed by the Law Minister. Also, thanks are due to those members who have been regularly attending the Special Committee meetings. I want to specially place on record my thanks specially to those faces which I see today. I also thank them. We will meet at 4.30. Mr. Abdul Hafeez Pirzada: One thing more, Sir. I would now request the honorable members to be here punctually at SECRECY OF THE PROCEEDINGS 3083 4:30 p.m. because we are meeting as [the] National Assembly. Whereafter [the] presentation of these recommendations which have been unanimously approved by the House Committee, I would be introducing straightaway the Constitution Amendment Bill and, therefore, every member will be needed for the passage of this Bill. Mr. Chairman: At 4:30 we meet as [the] National Assembly. Thank you very much. [The Special Committee of the Whole House adjourned sine die] PCPP-161(10)NA-21-02-2011-450. 2. LIST OF AGENTS, AUTHORISED FOR SALE OF GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS KARACHI Mansoor Stationery Mart, Hassan Ali, Effendi Road, Opp. Light House Cinema, Karachi. M/s. Pioneer Book House, P.O. Box No. 37, Awan Lodge Bunder Road, Opp. Dow Medical College, Karachi. M/s Royal Book Company, 232-Saddar Co-operative Market, Abdullah Haroon Road, Post Box No. 7737 Karachi 74400 M/s. Petewala Book Corporation, Ismail Mension Stretchen Road, N.B.D. College Road, Pakistan Chowk, Post Bos No. 135, Karachi, 74200. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. B. M/s. Readers Associates Victoria Chamber No. 1, P.B. 7485 Abdullah Haroon Road, Karachi. M/s. Sipra Book Company, A-12 Street No. 2, Usman Ghani Road, Munzoor Colony, Karachi. 75460. M/s. Pakistan Law House, Pakistan Chowk, P.O. Box No. 90, Karachi, M/s. Firdous Stationery Mart, 85 Liaquat Market Opp. New Mamon Masjid, M.A. Jinnah Road, Karachi. 9. M/s. Supper Law Books Supplies, 15-A, Nelsons Chamber, Hasrat Mohani Road, Karachi. 10. M/s. Executive Updating Service, D-T, 24, Block 18, Federal 'B' Area, PO. Box No. 13708, Karachi 75950. Phone No. 631 8699, Fax No. 631 0276 11. Ms. Indus Publications, 25 Fareed Chambers, Abdullah Haroon Road, Karachi, 12. M/s. Iqbal Book Depot, Books Export House, Near St. Joseph Girls College, Shahrah-e-Iraq, Saddar, Karachi. 13. M/s. Your Stores, 22-New Memon Masjid, M.A. Jinnah Road, Karachi. 14. M/s. Central Store, 24 New Memon Masjid, M.A. Jinnah Road, Karachi. 15. M/s. Kashif Book & Stationery Centre, 3-B, Block A, UK. Square Shahrah-e-Pakistan, 16-Federal B. Aren, Karachi. 16. M/s. Muslim Book World C-1/14 Al-Ahram Square, 3rd Floor, Block G North Nazimabad, Post Box 10858 (Hyderi), Karachi. 17. M/s. Somaa International Services, Suit No. 320, 3rd Floor, HMH Square, Near Civic Centre, Karachi-75300 Ph: 4921754, Fax: (92-21) 4921754, E-mail: somna@super.net.pk QUETTA 18. M/s. Kalat Publishers Book Sellers, Rustamji Lane, Jinnah Road, Quetta. SUKKUR 19. M/s. Ajaib Store. Ajaib Manzil, Frere Road, Sukkur. MULTAN 20. M/s. Multan Chamber of Commerce & Industries, Katchery Road, Multan. VEHARI 21. M/s. Rahmat Printing Services, Ahata Shah Nawaz, Mandi Burewala, District Vehari. FAISALABAD 22. M/s. S. Maula Buksh Abdul Aziz, 14-Cooperative Bank Chamber, Rail Bazar, P.O. Box-104, Faisalabad. LAHORE 23. Mirza Book Agency, 65, Shahrah-e-Quaid-e-Azam, PO. Box No. 729, Lahore. 24. M/s. Mansoor Book House, Kutchery Road, Lahore. 25. M/s. Islamic Service, 40-A, Urdu Bazar, PO. Box No. 1493, Lahore. 26. M/s. Kausar Brothers, I-Turner Road, Near High Court, Lahore. 27. M/s. People's Publishing House, 4-Begum Road, PO. Box No. 862, Lahore. 28. M/s. Publishers United (Ltd.) PO. Box No. 1689, 176-Anarkali, Lahore. 29. M/s. Punjab Religious Book Society, Anarkali, Lahore. 30. M/s. Premier Book House, Shaheen Market, Anarkali, P.O. Box No. 1888, Lahore. 31. M/s. Ghulam Mohy-ud-Din & Brothers, Pakistan Law Journal (Stall in Lahore High Court) Mohammadi Par Mohammadi Road, Lahore. 32. M/s. Vanguard Books Ltd., 8-Davis Road, Lahore. 33. M/s. All Pakistan Legal Decisions, Nabha Road, Lahore. 34. M/s. Book Centre Liberty Market. Gulberg, Lahore. 35. M/s. Multi Line Books, Regal Chowk, Hall Road, Post Box No. 1268, Lahore. 36. M/s. Techincal and Commercial Book Co., Chowk Dalgran, 128-Railway Road, Lahore. RAWALPINDI 37. M/s. Federal Law, House H/136 Murree Road, Committee Chowk, Rawalpindi. 38. M/s. American Book Company, Bank Road, Rawalpindi. ISLAMABAD 39. M/s. Fatherand International (Pvt.) (Lid.) 31-Javid Plaza, Blue Area, Islamabad. 40. M/s. Al-Aziz Corporation, 27-T&T Centre, G-8/4, Islamabad. 41. M/s. Maktabah Abdiya, Shop No. 10, Block No. 19, Markaz G-9, Islamahad. ..... Vabakat Telamshad